1. 1 DAY 6 Wednesday, 4th February 1998

    2 (9.15 am)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Morning, may I ask the

    4 Registrar to call out the case number, please?

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a,

    6 Prosecutor versus Dokmanovic.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, and the

    8 appearances, please?

    9 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name

    10 is Niemann and I appear with my colleague Mr. Williamson

    11 for the Prosecution.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Defence counsel?

    13 MR. FILA: Good morning your Honours. I am

    14 Toma Fila appearing together with colleague Lopicic and

    15 Petrovic.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask the accused

    17 whether he can hear me. Can you? Thank you. All right.

    18 I will ask the Prosecutor whether he can call the first

    19 witness.

    20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, before calling

    21 the first witness I have a couple of preliminary

    22 matters. Perhaps we can address those.

    23 In relation to the discussions we have had in

    24 the last couple of days, I have prepared a revised

    25 witness list which indicates some additional witnesses

  2. 1 that we would call this week, and I can supply that to

    2 the court at this time.

    3 We have included four additional witnesses,

    4 which I am afraid is the maximum number that we would

    5 have available for this week. There are a number of

    6 reasons for this, but apparently the Victims and Witnesses

    7 Unit has some constraints on the number of witnesses

    8 that they can accommodate at any one time, for security

    9 reasons and just logistics. In order to get witnesses

    10 here, it requires almost a week's advance notice

    11 because we have to make application to the Dutch

    12 government to get visas for persons, we have to make

    13 travel arrangements and in most cases witnesses have to

    14 arrange to take time off work.

    15 So, we have proceeded at a pace which is much

    16 faster than any other trial up until now, and even we

    17 anticipated somewhat of a quicker pace and we have had

    18 as many witnesses here as we could get but I think that

    19 this is all that we would have available for this week.

    20 So I think this will take us through Friday

    21 but it may not go until 5 o'clock on Friday.

    22 Additionally, I am providing to the court

    23 a brief summary of the subject matter of the testimony

    24 of the witnesses who have not provided witness

    25 statements, and these are five witnesses that we have

  3. 1 discussed in the last couple of days. All of these are

    2 family members of victims from Ovcara and these are the

    3 statements of Vladimir Veber, Katica Zera, and Irina

    4 Kacic which I believe was the ones that you had not

    5 received statements for.

    6 Finally, your Honours, I am providing to the

    7 court a brief supplementary statement of Emil Cakalic

    8 which was taken in April of 1996. When the statements

    9 were provided to the Defence and to the Trial Chamber

    10 the original statement of Cakalic was provided but this

    11 supplemental statement was inadvertently omitted.

    12 I discovered this error yesterday when I began

    13 reviewing his file in preparation for his testimony. As

    14 soon as I discovered this error I provided a copy to

    15 the Defence in English and I immediately submitted it

    16 for translation which will be completed at

    17 approximately 10 am this morning. The statement, as

    18 I indicated, is very brief, it is approximately two

    19 pages of text and it is for the witness Emil Cakalic

    20 who is anticipated to testify tomorrow and I believe

    21 the Defence would like that time so that they have an

    22 opportunity to review the statement and prepare for it

    23 before he does testify.

    24 The other two documents I have already

    25 provided to the Defence, but I can now provide all of

  4. 1 these items to the Chamber.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. (Handed).

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the

    5 witness to make the solemn declaration?

    6 WITNESS P (sworn)

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    8 May I ask the Prosecutor whether the

    9 protection of this particular witness also includes the

    10 voice distortion?

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, it does not, your

    12 Honour. It is image alteration and just before the

    13 witness testified he had asked that he be able to use

    14 a pseudonym in relation to his testimony, so I would

    15 refer to him as Witness P, and at this time I would

    16 like for him to review this document.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we start, may I ask

    18 the Prosecutor, on behalf of the court, whether,

    19 generally speaking, he can refrain from asking leading

    20 questions?

    21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Certainly.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    23 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

    24 Q. Sir, I would like for to you review this

    25 piece of paper I have just handed you and, without

  5. 1 saying the name, can you tell me, is that your correct

    2 name? You have to answer orally.

    3 A. Yes.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would mark

    5 this as Prosecutor's exhibit...

    6 THE REGISTRAR: 26.

    7 MR. WILLIAMSON: ... 26, and provide that to

    8 the court and the Defence and this would be submitted

    9 under seal.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I presume the

    11 Defence counsel does not object to...

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Witness P, do you recall at

    13 some point in 1995 speaking with an investigator from

    14 the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And on that occasion did you give a statement

    17 to that Prosecutor which was taken in the English

    18 language?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And was that statement read back to you in

    21 Croatian by a translator?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. I would like to show the witness this exhibit

    24 now, please, which we will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    25 27. Do you recognise this document?

  6. 1 A. I do.

    2 Q. And is that your signature that appears on

    3 the document?

    4 A. Yes, it is.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would like to

    6 offer this, tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 27.

    7 Statement of Witness P, and to tender this under seal.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection from the

    9 Defence counsel?

    10 MR. FILA: No objection.

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Sir, can you tell the court

    12 where you are from?

    13 A. I am from Vukovar.

    14 Q. And did you live your whole life in Vukovar?

    15 A. Yes. Until the war, until 1991.

    16 Q. And were you educated there as well?

    17 A. Yes, I was.

    18 Q. When did you complete your secondary school

    19 studies in Vukovar?

    20 A. I completed my secondary school on 19th June

    21 1991.

    22 Q. Going back a little bit, were things

    23 relatively peaceful in Vukovar in the early part of

    24 1991?

    25 A. Until the end of April I did not notice

  7. 1 anything. Returning from the Easter holidays we were

    2 supposed to take some food to Borovo Selo and we were

    3 intercepted on the way by some armed men and they would

    4 not let us pass. A few days after that the incident

    5 occurred in Borovo Selo on 2nd May, and after that the

    6 situation became very tense.

    7 Q. Are you aware of what happened on 2nd May in

    8 Borovo Selo?

    9 A. Personally I learned from the media, but

    10 I heard the story going around town as to what had

    11 happened, and tension was extreme.

    12 Q. You indicated that after that tension

    13 increased even more in the area. Are you aware of any

    14 other incidents which were an indication of the

    15 increasing tension?

    16 A. The situation was rather tense, and it

    17 reached a peak as far as I can remember on -- around

    18 26th June in a cafe bar close to my house, two members

    19 of the guards were killed. They did not do anything.

    20 They just came to have a drink and two men walked in

    21 and simply killed them.

    22 Q. When you say, "two members of the guards",

    23 what guards are you talking about?

    24 A. The Croatian guards wearing camouflage

    25 uniforms and the insignia of the Croatian army.

  8. 1 Q. And do you know who killed them?

    2 A. I do. The owner of the house in which the

    3 cafe bar was situated, Slobodan Jurisic is his name,

    4 and he was accompanied by Mike Stojkovic.

    5 Q. To your knowledge were Mr. Jurisic and

    6 Stojkovic Serbs?

    7 A. Yes. They are.

    8 Q. As the summer wore on, did you see any

    9 decrease in tension, or did it get worse?

    10 A. Until the 10th July when I left Vukovar, one

    11 could increasingly frequently hear fire during the

    12 night. The town was virtually deserted. People had left

    13 either on holiday or they had fled, and then on

    14 10th July I left.

    15 Q. What was the reason that you left in July?

    16 A. I simply went on my summer holidays, as I did

    17 every year. I went to stay with relatives in Bjelovar.

    18 Q. You indicated that people had left either on

    19 holiday or they had fled. What were they fleeing from?

    20 A. I do not know. Probably they were afraid

    21 because of the incidents, so they left. They did not

    22 move out. They simply went away.

    23 Q. To your knowledge were people being forced to

    24 leave or were they doing this of their own accord?

    25 A. No. Simply people were afraid. When somebody

  9. 1 knows that somebody was killed in a cafe bar in cold

    2 blood, then that probably causes fear among people.

    3 Q. Did this include Croats as well as Serbs?

    4 A. The Croats were mostly going on summer

    5 holidays, whereas the Serbs had their stories about

    6 this. They started leaving already at the beginning of

    7 May. They went to Serbia in an organised fashion. They

    8 would go for three days and then they would come back,

    9 so this became a farce so with my friends, Serbs that

    10 I socialised with, I knew that when they left they

    11 would be back soon, and they would arrange it that this

    12 visit should coincide with the time that Savezda, the

    13 football club had its matches in Belgrade.

    14 Q. You indicated that you went to Bjelovar on

    15 10th July. Did you go back to Vukovar at some later

    16 point in the summer?

    17 A. On 18th August I went back to Vukovar.

    18 Q. Had the situation changed any since the time

    19 that you had left in July?

    20 A. From 18th until 24th it was relatively

    21 peaceful. Only one could hear sporadic shooting, as

    22 before. However, in town, there were even less people.

    23 Q. You mentioned the 24th August. What happened

    24 then?

    25 A. On 24th and onwards I was in the basement

  10. 1 because the shelling started. Planes were bombing the

    2 town, and the shells were falling and it was no longer

    3 safe outside the cellar.

    4 Q. What was the frequency of the shelling or the

    5 air attacks?

    6 A. In those days in comparison with what

    7 happened later, it was not very high, the frequency,

    8 but it was occasional, and actually that is even worse

    9 because it surprises you. One relaxes and then suddenly

    10 a couple of shells are fired and people get killed.

    11 Q. You said that you had gone into the cellar

    12 when this started. Where was the cellar located?

    13 A. In the basement of my house.

    14 Q. And did you remain at your house throughout

    15 this period?

    16 A. I left my house on 15th or

    17 16th September when the Serbs and the army reached

    18 about 100-200 metres from my house.

    19 Q. Up until that time who had you been with in

    20 the house, if anyone?

    21 A. I was in the basement with my mother and

    22 grandmother.

    23 Q. When you left the house, where did you go?

    24 A. I went to the nuclear shelter in the district

    25 of Olajnica.

  11. 1 Q. Did you join in the defence of the city?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Why?

    4 A. I simply felt the need to join in the defence

    5 of my city, and the main reason was the large number of

    6 civilians that nobody could take care of.

    7 Q. Did you consider yourself an Ustasha?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Did the other men who were defending the town

    10 appear to you to be Ustasha?

    11 A. No. Just Croatian soldiers defending their

    12 city and their territory.

    13 Q. Were there Serbs among the defenders, to your

    14 knowledge?

    15 A. Yes there were, quite a number.

    16 Q. Were most of the defenders local people?

    17 A. Most of them, yes.

    18 Q. What were your duties or responsibilities

    19 during the battle?

    20 A. To get supplies of food, water, to transport

    21 the wounded, to keep watch duty in this area, because

    22 we had a large number of civilians. We had four water

    23 cisterns with 1,000 litres of water each, so we would

    24 transport food from one place to another, then fuel

    25 wood for cooking.

  12. 1 Q. Where were you located most of the time

    2 during the battle?

    3 A. Our base was the nuclear shelter in Olajnica

    4 and from there we went on assignment.

    5 Q. Did you carry a weapon during this time?

    6 A. Yes. When we kept guard duty, we were armed.

    7 Q. And did you remain at Olajnica throughout the

    8 battle?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. As the battle was coming to an end in

    11 November did you go someplace else?

    12 A. I stayed in Olajnica until 19th November in

    13 the morning when a woman with a white flag came and

    14 said that, who wanted to go towards the Serbs and the

    15 army should go to the piazza, the market, and those who

    16 wanted to go to Croatia should go to the hospital. So

    17 I went towards the hospital, and there were very many

    18 civilians there. Only a couple of us men, so that we

    19 drove them to the hospital.

    20 Q. Did your mother go there as well?

    21 A. No, my mother was wounded on 8th November

    22 when she was going to give her blood at the hospital so

    23 that she was in hospital at the time, undergoing

    24 treatment.

    25 Q. What were the circumstances under which she

  13. 1 was wounded?

    2 A. A lady from the hospital came and said that

    3 they needed a lot of blood because they had many

    4 wounded and she was looking for donators, so we got

    5 into a car, a very small car. It is a Fica, as we call

    6 it, a small Fiat. There were five of us and we heard

    7 firing from the hill behind Olajnica, an area we called

    8 Hollywood. My mother was the only one to be wounded on

    9 that occasion in the car. So we just speeded up and

    10 drove to the hospital. She was immediately operated --

    11 the bullet was taken out. It was a 7.62 calibre bullet.

    12 That is how she was wounded.

    13 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit on what the

    14 situation was at the hospital when you arrived there on

    15 19th?

    16 A. On the 19th when we arrived at the hospital,

    17 according to my estimate, there were more than 1,000

    18 civilians. I went to see my mother. She was lying

    19 there, and all these wounded and civilians and doctors

    20 were gathered there. They were standing on the steps

    21 and in the ground floor. It was very crowded.

    22 Q. When you arrived at the hospital on 19th, to

    23 your knowledge was the JNA already there?

    24 A. I arrived, I only saw one soldier standing

    25 there, but I went inside immediately to see my mother.

  14. 1 So that I did not see them. But later on, around 1 or 2

    2 in the afternoon, the rumour spread that some JNA

    3 officers had come.

    4 Q. Did you see these officers personally at that

    5 time?

    6 A. On 19th? No. I did not see any in person.

    7 Q. During the night between 19th and 20th, what

    8 was going on in the hospital?

    9 A. In the evening of 19th some Chetniks barged

    10 in. Among them was one who was looking for his brother.

    11 This was on 19th at night and I heard some shots being

    12 fired around the hospital. Our people were sitting on

    13 chairs, sleeping, talking and so on.

    14 Q. Where were you throughout that night?

    15 (9:45 am)

    16 A. I spent the night either talking to my mother

    17 or a couple of metres away from her, sitting on a chair

    18 and drowsing.

    19 Q. On the morning of 20th, what happened at the

    20 hospital?

    21 A. On 20th in the morning some JNA officers came

    22 in and called out names from a list to be taken out.

    23 There was an officer with a bag, and he stuck a biro

    24 into the wound of one of the soldiers who was wounded

    25 in the leg so he cried out in pain and then he was

  15. 1 taken out as well. When they were taken out they said

    2 that all the men from 16-60 and all those who were

    3 mobile, including the wounded with crutches, had to go

    4 out.

    5 When we got out we stood up against the wall,

    6 we formed two lines against the wall and Sljivancanin

    7 spoke to us, saying that none of this should have

    8 happened. We were searched, I was searched three

    9 times, and then we boarded the buses.

    10 Q. At this time, I would like to show the

    11 witness an item which has previously been marked

    12 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 8, admitted as Prosecutor's

    13 Exhibit 8.

    14 If you can, I would like for him to display

    15 this on the ELMO, please.

    16 If you could turn to the second photograph,

    17 do you recognise this photograph?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And using the projector which is to your

    20 right side, if you can point out any items which may be

    21 relevant to what you have testified about in regard to

    22 where you were taken out of the hospital?

    23 A. We came in this side. This is -- and then we

    24 were lined up against this wall, Sljivancanin was

    25 standing here somewhere, next to him was Radic, and

  16. 1 then the buses were parked here in this street,

    2 Gunduliceva Street. (Indicated).

    3 Q. Now, if you would turn to the second

    4 photograph from the rear, do you recognise this

    5 photograph?

    6 A. Yes. That is the area we were led to. I was

    7 standing somewhere here. Sljivancanin was here, and

    8 Radic here, and all this was full of soldiers and

    9 Chetniks, and we were searched here, and then we went

    10 over there to climb the buses. (Indicated).

    11 Q. When you use the term, "Chetniks", what are

    12 you referring to?

    13 A. Well, they have mixed uniforms, they have

    14 beards, they carry the insignia either of the White

    15 Eagles, Kokades, and fur hats, those are the Chetniks.

    16 Q. Do people that you refer to as, "Chetniks",

    17 have a certain political ideology?

    18 A. Yes. Nationalists. They are Serb nationalists

    19 and extremists.

    20 Q. Is this a term that you use to refer to all

    21 Serbs?

    22 A. No, under no circumstances.

    23 Q. Now, when you were outside and you were made

    24 to assemble along this wall, what happened?

    25 A. Sljivancanin spoke to us, saying that we

  17. 1 should not have done this and that. He issued orders to

    2 Captain Radic, and then he carried out those orders, or

    3 rather passed them on to soldiers who were searching

    4 us. We were on the right-hand side, and the women were

    5 on the left.

    6 Q. And how was that search conducted?

    7 A. We were searched thoroughly. Any hard object

    8 was taken away, even pens and pencils. Anything that

    9 was hard was taken away from us.

    10 Q. Who was conducting the searches?

    11 A. JNA soldiers were searching us.

    12 Q. Were they armed?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Were you or the other men that were assembled

    15 in this driveway armed?

    16 A. No. We were all wearing civilian clothes and

    17 without any weapons.

    18 Q. Among this group of people that were out

    19 there, were there wounded?

    20 A. Yes. There were, quite a number.

    21 Q. Were there members of the hospital staff?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Now, you indicated that the buses were

    24 located on Gunduliceva Street. How many buses did you

    25 see there?

  18. 1 A. I am sure that there were five. I am not sure

    2 about the sixth.

    3 Q. How did you come to get on the bus? What were

    4 the circumstances under which you did that?

    5 A. After having been searched we got on the

    6 buses.

    7 Q. Were you told to get on the buses?

    8 A. Yes, yes.

    9 Q. Were you directed to any particular bus or

    10 just told to get on the buses in general?

    11 A. No. They told each one of us which bus we

    12 should get on to.

    13 Q. And which bus did you get on?

    14 A. I think it was the one but last and I went to

    15 the back. I got in at the back door.

    16 Q. Can you describe the buses at all?

    17 A. They were ordinary buses. They were all

    18 coloured in olive green.

    19 Q. Did they appear to be civilian buses to you?

    20 A. No, military buses. Military, military buses.

    21 Q. Did you know any other persons that were on

    22 the bus with you?

    23 A. I knew quite a few of them.

    24 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those

    25 persons?

  19. 1 A. In my bus there was Franjo Nadj, Mikalic,

    2 there were a number of Simunovics, and so on. I did not

    3 know many people by name, but rather by sight.

    4 Q. Was there a guard on the bus?

    5 A. Yes, there was a driver and a JNA soldier

    6 under arms as a guard.

    7 Q. Where did the buses go from the hospital?

    8 A. They passed the market across the bridge to

    9 the children's infirmary, then in Kras Street, then

    10 straight to the fairground, to the JNA barracks.

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time, I would request

    12 that we show a video to the witness which is -- excuse

    13 me just a moment, your Honour. (Pause).

    14 Your Honour, I do not believe that this has

    15 previously been tendered. It is the video which was

    16 shown in part during Mr. Niemann's opening statement. It

    17 is the videotape which is entitled, "Vukovar, Ovcara

    18 incident", and which tracks the route from the

    19 hospital. So I would like to show that at this time.

    20 The portion from the hospital to the JNA barracks, if

    21 we can.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? Thank you.

    23 (Video played)

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Witness P, if you can, as

    25 this tape is playing just describe for the court what

  20. 1 you are viewing on your screen.

    2 A. Very well.

    3 Q. I believe this is the incorrect portion. If

    4 we can... it would be at the very beginning of the

    5 tape.

    6 How long did you wait on the buses before

    7 leaving the hospital after you got on?

    8 A. About half an hour. In fact, we were waiting

    9 for these five or six buses to be filled. So that

    10 everybody would be searched and then board the bus.

    11 Q. Once you got on the buses, did anything

    12 happen to you at the hospital before you left?

    13 A. No. As far as I could see they only searched

    14 people and took them to the buses.

    15 Q. Okay. At this time I believe the video is

    16 ready, and so if you can, again, just comment on this

    17 as it plays and indicate to the Chamber exactly what we

    18 are viewing.

    19 (Video played)

    20 A. This is the main entrance to the Vukovar

    21 hospital.

    22 Q. Is this located on Gunduliceva Street?

    23 A. No, no. This is -- I forget what the street

    24 name is.

    25 Q. But it is the opposite side from Gunduliceva?

  21. 1 A. Correct, yes, the opposite side.

    2 This is the inside of the compound. That is

    3 the yard.

    4 This is the wall and the driveway where we

    5 stood and where we were searched and then from there

    6 boarded the buses.

    7 This is the interior of the hospital.

    8 Q. Which floor of the hospital is this, if you

    9 know?

    10 A. I believe this is in the basement of the

    11 hospital.

    12 Q. And at the time that you were there on 19th,

    13 what parts of the hospital were being used?

    14 A. Only the ground floor and the basement

    15 because the upper floors were either shelled or

    16 destroyed.

    17 This is again the interior of the hospital.

    18 This is the door by which we exited.

    19 This is the same door from the other side.

    20 This is where we came out. This is where the soldiers

    21 and the Chetniks stood and we stood against a wall.

    22 That is where they took us to the buses.

    23 This is the view from Gunduliceva Street.

    24 That is where they brought us out. Then we took that

    25 street for the...

  22. 1 This is Gunduliceva Street.

    2 Q. Is this the direction in which you travelled

    3 on the 20th November?

    4 A. Yes. Yes. This is the direction in which we

    5 travelled. This is where the buses drove us.

    6 Here we passed a marketplace and then across

    7 the bridge.

    8 Q. And this bridge crosses what?

    9 A. It crosses the Vuka River.

    10 Then we crossed the bridge, and here we

    11 turned right into Kraseva Street. We continued on

    12 Kraseva and up. Then we arrived at the intersection

    13 with Ognjen Prica Street and then continued on towards

    14 the fairgrounds. This is the fairgrounds street.

    15 Yes. This is a bird's eye view of the

    16 hospital.

    17 Q. And what is indicated by the rear entrance is

    18 the place where you exited. Is that correct?

    19 A. Yes, yes. Correct.

    20 Q. If we can stop the video and just go back

    21 just a little bit and pause there, if you can go back

    22 just a little bit... okay, at that point, that is good.

    23 Stop.

    24 Looking at that, can you see the area of

    25 Oranica displayed?

  23. 1 A. Yes, that is right next to the bus station.

    2 Q. Can you describe where it is perhaps a little

    3 better, because unfortunately we are not able to see

    4 with the pointer on that. In relation to the river,

    5 perhaps, and where it appears on the screen.

    6 A. In relation to the Vuka River, let us say

    7 from the bottom bridge, that was the former SDK

    8 building and then the bus station and then the Olajnica

    9 neighbourhood. On the left-hand side of the Vuka River

    10 there is this green patch and then the buildings of

    11 Olajnica.

    12 Q. And there does appear to be rather tall

    13 buildings. Is that correct?

    14 A. Yes. There were seven or eight storey

    15 buildings.

    16 Q. Okay, and if we can just run the tape again.

    17 (Video played)

    18 If we can stop the tape here just for

    19 a moment, do you see indicated on here where your home

    20 was located in Vukovar?

    21 A. It is hard for me to point to it but I know

    22 where it is.

    23 Q. Okay. We can go ahead and run the tape, then.

    24 (Video played)

    25 A. That is the entrance through which we entered

  24. 1 the JNA barracks.

    2 Q. If we can stop it right there for a moment,

    3 do you recognise this location that is indicated here?

    4 A. Yes. This is the inside the compound of the

    5 JNA barracks and the buses came to be parked in

    6 a semicircle over here.

    7 MR. WILLIAMSON: And at this point we can stop

    8 the tape for a moment.

    9 And your Honours, at this time I would like

    10 to tender this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 28.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Right. Thank you.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Can you tell us what

    13 happened when the buses arrived at the JNA barracks?

    14 A. They were parked in a semicircle and there

    15 were a lot of Chetniks and military, different

    16 uniforms. And the Chetniks had taken the shovels and

    17 there were -- would break off the handles. Then

    18 I heard them sharpening their knives. They were walking

    19 around, they were taking pictures with their -- with

    20 knives between their teeth and sometimes some of them

    21 would try to board the buses but the guards would not

    22 let them go past the stairwell.

    23 Q. Were there any threats made to the people on

    24 the buses?

    25 A. Yes. They entered and threatened. One of them

  25. 1 came on and he said, "do not worry. I only cut off ears

    2 and noses", another one came on and said, "what did you

    3 need all this for", and such.

    4 Q. What were you feeling at this time?

    5 A. I was frightened, naturally. I felt fear.

    6 Q. What did you think was going to happen to

    7 you?

    8 A. Not think that anything bad would happen to

    9 us, but I was in fear of these savages around me.

    10 Q. How long did the buses stay at the JNA

    11 barracks, to the best of your knowledge?

    12 A. Two or three hours. That was my sense.

    13 Q. Were you checking your watch during this time

    14 period?

    15 A. I did not have a watch.

    16 Q. Do you have any idea of what time of day this

    17 was?

    18 A. It was around 12 o'clock or 1 o'clock, maybe

    19 even later. I did not have a clear sense.

    20 Q. Are you familiar with a place called

    21 Velepromet?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Where is it located in relation to the JNA

    24 barracks?

    25 A. Across the road. Maybe diagonally across.

  26. 1 Q. It is in close proximity to the JNA barracks?

    2 A. Yes. Less than 3 minutes on foot.

    3 Q. At some point in time did the buses leave the

    4 barracks?

    5 A. This Captain Radic boarded the buses and read

    6 out the names from some list that he had, then these

    7 people would get off the buses and would enter another

    8 bus. Meanwhile, they were savagely beaten by the

    9 Chetniks.

    10 Q. You have made reference a couple of times to

    11 Major Sljivancanin and Captain Radic. How did you know

    12 their names?

    13 A. I do not know about Sljivancanin, how I knew

    14 who he was, but I knew immediately. I think that he

    15 introduced himself, and Sljivancanin addressed Radic

    16 as, "Captain Radic".

    17 Q. And when had this occurred?

    18 A. At the hospital. At the hospital Sljivancanin

    19 addressed Radic as, "Captain Radic", and Radic entered

    20 the buses at the barracks.


    22 Q. Now, you said that Captain Radic had read

    23 names and people got off the buses. How long was it

    24 after that, if you have any idea, before the buses left

    25 the barracks?

  27. 1 A. Maybe about half an hour to an hour is when

    2 we left.

    3 Q. And where did the buses go when they left the

    4 barracks?

    5 A. We went in the direction of Negoslavci, and

    6 turned to the left on an asphalt road through the

    7 tilled fields towards Ovcara and there we arrived in

    8 front of the hangar at Ovcara.

    9 Q. During this part of the trip from the JNA

    10 barracks to Ovcara, did you still have guards on the

    11 bus?

    12 A. Yes. The same guard.

    13 Q. At this time I would like to show the witness

    14 the video from the barracks to Ovcara, please. This is

    15 the exhibit that we have previously tendered as

    16 Exhibit 28.

    17 Again, Witness P, if you can just describe

    18 what we are seeing as the video runs.

    19 A. Very well.

    20 (Video played)

    21 This is an aerial shot, and this is the road

    22 to Negoslavci. That is where the arrow is pointing.

    23 Then we went along that road and then there will be

    24 a left turn coming up. Yes. We turned to the left. This

    25 is the asphalt road among the fields. We turned here

  28. 1 and then there was a quick turn to the right and to the

    2 hangar.

    3 Q. And if we can stop the tape at this point,

    4 and then we will pick up with the next segment,

    5 I believe.

    6 I am sorry, that is all we need of the tape.

    7 Now I would like for the witness to be shown

    8 a series of maps which we will mark individually, if

    9 these can be pulled up on the computer monitor, which

    10 also depict the same route. The first map that I would

    11 like to display, I believe, is, for the purposes of the

    12 technical crew, is identified as B31. We would mark

    13 this map as Prosecutor's Exhibit 29.

    14 Witness P, can you indicate what is depicted

    15 on this map?

    16 A. This is a map of Vukovar. We see that along

    17 the Danube River there is the hospital, then the JNA

    18 barracks, and then the road to Negoslavci. This is the

    19 road through the fields and then this small

    20 intersection that -- turn in the road and then the

    21 hangar.

    22 Q. If we can display the next map, which is

    23 identified as B37 for the technical crew, and we would

    24 mark that as Prosecutor's Exhibit 30.

    25 Can you tell us what this map shows?

  29. 1 A. It is also a map with marked sites of the

    2 hospital, the bridge, the Vuka River which we crossed,

    3 and then through the streets until we turned into the

    4 barracks.

    5 Q. Okay, now, if we can see B36 which we will

    6 mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 30?

    7 A. This is a diagram showing the Vukovar

    8 hospital. We left by the rear entrance. This is where

    9 the buses were parked in Gunduliceva Street and then we

    10 left by that street to the barracks and this is -- yes,

    11 the main entrance to the hospital at Jevola Street.

    12 Q. I believe I made an error, I think that

    13 should be Prosecutor's Exhibit 31.

    14 We now move to map B35 which I will mark as

    15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 32: can you describe what is shown

    16 on this map?

    17 A. Yes. This is a section of the road between

    18 the hospital and just across the bridge past the

    19 marketplace. What you can see there is this settlement

    20 of neighbourhood of Olajnica.

    21 Q. And again, you are unable to point there

    22 where we can see. Can you describe where Olajnica is

    23 located on here, approximately?

    24 A. Here we have the hospital, and the yellow

    25 line is the road that we took. When the yellow line

  30. 1 reaches the blue area, that is the Vuka River and the

    2 bridge across the Vuka River. Across from it is the SDK

    3 building, the former SDK, and just above there is the

    4 bus station and to the left of it the two larger framed

    5 areas is the Olajnica settlement.

    6 Q. Would it be fair to say that it was located

    7 between the Vuka River and the green square park area

    8 up in the left-hand side?

    9 A. Yes, yes, I agree with that.

    10 Q. And this Olajnica area is where you were

    11 living; correct? Or this is where you were in the

    12 shelter during the battle?

    13 A. During the war, yes. Yes. During the war.

    14 Q. And do you have any idea how far

    15 approximately that is from the hospital?

    16 A. If you take the small streets in normal

    17 conditions, less than five minutes. In a straight line,

    18 maybe 200 metres, tops.

    19 Q. Okay. At this time I would like to display

    20 map B34, which I will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 33.

    21 Can you describe what this depicts?

    22 A. Right. Yes. Here we cross the river -- the

    23 bridge on the Vuka River. Then we pass the workers'

    24 hall, the old bank, the children's infirmary and then

    25 to the Josip Kras Street. Then we follow this street

  31. 1 all the way until the intersection with the Ognjen

    2 Prica Street and we continue along the fairground

    3 street, or Sajmiste Street.

    4 Q. Okay, if we can now see number B33 which is

    5 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 34.

    6 A. This is the Sajmiste or fairground street

    7 until we turn off into the JNA barracks.

    8 Q. And I know that it is not clearly depicted on

    9 this map, but can you describe where the Velepromet

    10 facility is located in relation to the barracks ?

    11 A. Across the street -- I do not know exactly,

    12 whether it is a little bit up the street or down the

    13 street where this yellow circle is, it would be right

    14 across from there.

    15 Q. Okay, and if we can now see B37, please --

    16 I am sorry. I think we have already seen that one. It

    17 would be B32. I would mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit

    18 35.

    19 A. Here we have the barracks, then the road to

    20 Negoslavci, then the turn off through the fields, the

    21 asphalt road, and that is where we turn to the small

    22 intersection and then in the direction of the hangar.

    23 MR WILLIAMSON: And at this time, your

    24 Honour, I would tender these exhibits as numbers 29

    25 through 35, and I have hard copies of these if it is

  32. 1 necessary to enter those for evidentiary purposes.

    2 For the assistance of the Registry, they are

    3 in the same order in which we went through.

    4 Now, when the buses arrived at the Ovcara

    5 hangar, what did you observe occurring there?

    6 A. There people were taken out of the bus one by

    7 one and he would have to pass a gauntlet of people and

    8 that is where the Chetniks would beat them and were

    9 taking their jackets, away their documents, money.

    10 Q. Can you describe a little more what you mean

    11 by, "a gauntlet"?

    12 A. At the front of the bus or next to the

    13 entrance there would be about 10 Chetniks on one side

    14 and about 10 Chetniks on the other side, so he had to

    15 pass by them and as he was doing so he was being beaten

    16 by them.

    17 Q. Were you able to observe this from the bus

    18 that you were on?

    19 A. Yes. When I approached I saw it very clearly.

    20 Q. Did all of the buses unload the men at the

    21 same time?

    22 A. No, no. The buses were going one by one and

    23 the men were also walking one by one.

    24 Q. Now, you have indicated that everyone had to

    25 run through this gauntlet. Did this happen to you as

  33. 1 well?

    2 A. Yes, yes. Just like everybody else I had to

    3 go through it and they beat me and before I entered the

    4 hangar I had to turn over the money, the documents in

    5 my jacket. Then I entered the hangar and there another

    6 group of Chetniks waited for us there and they

    7 continued to beat us.

    8 Q. What were they beating you with?

    9 A. With all kinds of things. With the handles

    10 that they prepared there, with the chains, with batons;

    11 they were even taking away crutches from the wounded

    12 and they beat people with them.

    13 Q. Were you injured as a result of these

    14 beatings?

    15 A. I was hit in the eyebrow. A Chetnik wanted to

    16 break my glasses so he hit me with a police baton.

    17 I still have a scar from it.

    18 Q. Were your glasses broken?

    19 A. Yes, they did.

    20 Q. What else was going on in the hangar while

    21 you were in there? Can you describe what the general

    22 situation was?

    23 A. I was standing in an area where there was hay

    24 and each one of us was beaten as we went in, and then

    25 the local Chetniks went around saying things, making up

  34. 1 things, saying that the younger boys had killed

    2 children, so they would beat them. Then they would

    3 say, accuse someone of having been a sniper and beat

    4 him, then a Montenegrin Chetnik came and asked whether

    5 there were any Albanians. One person answered and he

    6 beat him so badly until he almost died.

    7 Q. To your knowledge was anyone else seriously

    8 injured or killed as a result of the beatings?

    9 A. Except for this Albanian, another man was

    10 brutally beaten who also did not give any signs of life

    11 afterwards.

    12 Q. Who was beating the people in the hangar?

    13 A. All of them, whoever were there, but the

    14 Chetniks were the most brutal. Both local ones and

    15 those from the outside.

    16 Q. Did you see any JNA soldiers at the hangar?

    17 A. There were some JNA soldiers, and a number of

    18 JNA officers.

    19 Q. Did you know many of the people who were in

    20 the hangar being beaten?

    21 A. I knew most of them, as I said, by sight, and

    22 I knew quite a number by name as well.

    23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, at this time

    24 I would like to show another video to Witness P and

    25 I would mark this as Prosecutor's Exhibit 36, and this

  35. 1 is a video which was made in the hospital on the night

    2 between 19th and 20th, and just see if he can identify

    3 any of the persons that are depicted on this video that

    4 he saw later at Ovcara.

    5 This is a tape of several minutes, and so

    6 again, if you can just describe what we are seeing as

    7 we see it? And if you see anyone that you know, if you

    8 would point them out and we can stop the tape at that

    9 point.

    10 (video played)

    11 Can you describe what this is showing?

    12 A. This is the interior of the hospital, and the

    13 wounded. Stop. This man was taken out when I said that

    14 they read out names, several names from the list.

    15 I did not see him at Ovcara. His name is Stipo Sotinac.

    16 Q. Can you describe which man you are talking

    17 about, because again, unfortunately, you are not able

    18 to point.

    19 A. Yes. There are three of them in the bed. He

    20 is wearing a white shirt with a moustache and a bandage

    21 on his eye. He is bald. He is on the left-hand side of

    22 the screen.

    23 Q. All right, if we can roll it again, please.

    24 A. Stop please. Here, where the sign is, so one

    25 cannot see very well, the sign of the ICTY, if you can

  36. 1 move that sign which is in the right-hand corner --

    2 there. Yes. That man in a white coat, he was the other

    3 person, Damjan Samardzic, who was beaten to death at

    4 Ovcara.

    5 Q. If we can proceed, please.

    6 A. Stop. Can you stop? This young man, to the

    7 left, the one who is sitting and who is holding onto

    8 the bench, in a black jacket with a white lining, his

    9 name is Damir Kovacic. He was wounded in the chest and

    10 he was brutally beaten.

    11 Q. Do you see anyone else in that photograph

    12 that you know?

    13 A. There is Kacic, Igor. We can play the tape

    14 until I see his face better. Will you play the tape,

    15 please, for his face to show? Stop. That is Igor Kacic.

    16 He was 16 years old at the time.

    17 Q. Can you indicate which person he is?

    18 A. Yes. He is just next to Kovacic. He is the

    19 tallest in this shot. He is standing up. He is the

    20 tallest there. He has a purple-ish jacket with a white

    21 T-shirt underneath and he has a fringe over his

    22 forehead, so the tallest man standing on the left-hand

    23 side of the screen.

    24 Q. Okay, if we can roll the tape some more. I am

    25 sorry, Igor Kacic you did see at Ovcara?

  37. 1 A. Yes, I did. I saw him at Ovcara.

    2 Q. Continue on, please.

    3 A. There we can see Igor again.

    4 Q. Do you know where you were in relation to

    5 where he was standing?

    6 A. At the time when this was being filmed?

    7 Q. Or during that evening, yes. If you recognise

    8 any of these places where you might have been, and if

    9 we can stop it here for just a moment, if you can

    10 answer my question.

    11 A. I spent the night with them with Damir and

    12 Igor. Nearby there was a chair where I slept that

    13 night.

    14 Q. Okay. Again, at this point, do you know this

    15 individual?

    16 A. Yes. That man was seen at Ovcara as well.

    17 I do not know his name.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, it can run again.

    19 Your Honours, there is some commentary

    20 involved in the tape as well as some interviews so we

    21 have taken the sound out of the tape.

    22 A. I saw this young man too at Ovcara.

    23 Q. Do you know his name?

    24 A. No, I do not.

    25 Q. Okay. We can start again please.

  38. 1

    2 A. Stop please. I saw this man, the one in the

    3 white coat, and the one in a lilac sweater with his arm

    4 in a sling. His surname is, "Popovske". I do not know

    5 his first name and I do not know the name of the man in

    6 the white coat.

    7 Q. You indicated the man in the lilac sweater,

    8 his surname is Jakubovski? Is that correct?

    9 A. I think he had two surnames. Dosen,

    10 Jakubovski.

    11 Q. And you indicated that the man in white, you

    12 are not aware of his name; correct?

    13 A. Correct.

    14 Q. If we can begin again.

    15 Do you know who this man is?

    16 A. I do not know him. I think he got burned at

    17 Olajnica because during the last couple of days they

    18 had used incendiary bullets and napalm to hit those

    19 buildings, of course the Chetniks.

    20 Stop, please. This young man in a white coat

    21 in the middle, his name is Damir Polhert is his

    22 surname, so I saw him too.

    23 Q. Okay. It can run again.

    24 A. There. We can see him again in the left-hand

    25 corner of the screen.

  39. 1 Q. And this is the person with the white coat

    2 and the glasses on; correct?

    3 A. Yes. Damir. Polhert.

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: And I believe we can stop the

    5 tape at this point.

    6 At this time I would like to tender the tape

    7 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 36, and in relation to the

    8 individuals that he has identified, we will provide

    9 still photos of those taken from the video and those

    10 would be Exhibits 37 through 45 inclusive and we will

    11 sort this with the Registry and make it clear which

    12 ones are which. The times match up and are reflected

    13 on the photographs.

    14 Your Honour, at this time I would suggest,

    15 perhaps, if you are so inclined we can take a brief

    16 recess and then...

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Right: we stand in

    18 recess for twenty minutes.

    19 (10.50 am)

    20 (A short break)

    21 (11.20 am)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Can I ask the Prosecutor to

    23 resume the examination?

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, your Honour.

    25 Your Honour, just to perhaps make things bit

  40. 1 clearer, I have spoken with Mr. Vos and I think in order

    2 to make it absolutely clear which photographs were

    3 discussed when he went through, I would like to show

    4 each of them to the witness very quickly and just have

    5 him identify those and we will give it a number as we

    6 go through.

    7 So if I could have the usher bring it

    8 through, and just take all of these to him and copies

    9 have already been made, so...

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Williamson, while I have

    11 still got this matter in mind, can you help us as to

    12 the distance between the JNA barracks and Ovcara?

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I believe it is

    14 around 4-5 kilometres.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: We will have an investigator

    17 who will testify later and probably at the conclusion

    18 of our case and he can give you the precise distance at

    19 that time.

    20 Witness P, I would like for you to examine

    21 each of these photographs in turn. The first one we

    22 will mark as Prosecutor's Exhibit 37, and just indicate

    23 whether these are the photographs, that these

    24 photographs depict the scenes from the video that you

    25 identified earlier in your testimony.

  41. 1 A. I am afraid I cannot hear very well. Could

    2 the interpreter speak a little more loudly, please?

    3 Q. And as you examine each one of these

    4 photographs, if you can identify the name of the person

    5 if you know it, or just state that you are unable to

    6 identify the person by name, and then any location

    7 where you saw them later.

    8 A. This first photograph on the left-hand side

    9 of the photograph, the man in a white shirt with

    10 a bandage across his left eye, is Stipo Sotinac.

    11 MR WILLIAMSON: And at this time I would ask

    12 that you perhaps display this on the -- I am sorry,

    13 just a moment. (Pause).

    14 Your Honour, in order to expedite this and go

    15 through this as quickly as possible, if perhaps the

    16 witness can display each photograph on the ELMO and

    17 then just hand it to the usher in quick succession and

    18 we can move through this.

    19 If you can just wait one moment until the

    20 ELMO is turned on. This is the exhibit we are marking

    21 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 37. Can you just briefly state

    22 what this is, please?

    23 A. This man here is Stipo Sotinac. His name was

    24 called out before all the others had left the hospital

    25 and he was in that group.

  42. 1 Q. The next photograph, please, which we will

    2 mark -- which will be marked as Prosecutor's

    3 Exhibit 38?

    4 A. This man here is Damjan Samardzic, who was

    5 beaten to death in the hangar in Ovcara.

    6 Q. And did this man have a nickname that you are

    7 aware of?

    8 A. His nickname was "veliki bojler", or, "big

    9 boiler".

    10 Q. The next photograph, please? And this is

    11 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 39?

    12 A. This young man is Damir Kovacic. He was

    13 wounded in the chest and he was brutally beaten at

    14 Ovcara.

    15 Q. The next photograph, please, which will be

    16 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 40.

    17 A. This boy here is Igor Kacic aged 16. I saw

    18 him at Ovcara as well.

    19 Q. The next photograph, please, marked as

    20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 41.

    21 A. I do not know this man's name, but I saw him

    22 at Ovcara as well.

    23 Q. The next photograph, which will be marked as

    24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 42.

    25 A. Also, the same applies to this man. I do not

  43. 1 know his name but he was there.

    2 Q. The next photograph, please, which will be

    3 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 43.

    4 A. I do not know this man's name either.

    5 Q. Is there anyone else in that photograph?

    6 A. Yes. This is Dosanja Jakubovski. I think his

    7 first name is Ivan or something like that. Dosanja

    8 Jakubovski. Those are surnames.

    9 Q. And did you see both of these men at Ovcara?

    10 A. Yes, I did.

    11 Q. The next photograph, please. And this will be

    12 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 44.

    13 A. Those are the same two men. Jakubovski and

    14 this other one.

    15 Q. The next photograph, please, which will be

    16 marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 45.

    17 A. This is Damir Polhert wearing glasses. And

    18 I saw him at Ovcara.

    19 Q. Okay, and the last photograph, please, which

    20 I do not believe you indicated on the videotape, did

    21 you have an opportunity prior to seeing this videotape

    22 in court to go through it with an analyst from the

    23 Prosecutor's office?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And at that time, did you pick out this scene

  44. 1 as depicting someone that you know?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Okay. Can you explain what this is, and again

    4 this is marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 46.

    5 A. This man was at Ovcara as well. I do not know

    6 his name.

    7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. At this time, your

    8 Honour, I would like to tender these to the court as

    9 Exhibits 37 through 46 inclusive.


    11 Witness P, before we broke and started

    12 viewing this videotape, you were describing what was

    13 transpiring inside the hangar. How long did you remain

    14 in the hangar?

    15 A. I was there for about -- I do not know, half

    16 an hour, 45 minutes in the hangar when a local Chetnik,

    17 a soldier, came up to me, and asked me what I was doing

    18 there. I just shrugged my shoulders. He asked me

    19 whether I was in the army. I said, "no". I said that

    20 I was in the nuclear shelter at Olajnica. Then he took

    21 me aside, left from the door, next to Jekoslav Sindl,

    22 who was also there with me. We were guarded there by

    23 a JNA soldier with a sniper. He was three steps removed

    24 from us, and he watched over us.

    25 Q. In 1991 did you know who Slavko Dokmanovic

  45. 1 was?

    2 A. I knew that he was the town mayor of Vukovar,

    3 that he was a Serb, that he had left some time in June,

    4 but I did not know his face.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Were you aware of him being

    6 at Ovcara on 20th November 1991?

    7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Williamson, I am not sure

    8 that that is a question which is admissible. I think

    9 you had better rephrase that. You can ask him whether

    10 he saw the witness, that is one thing, but being aware,

    11 of course, could allow in all sorts of other evidence.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, your Honour,

    13 I will rephrase it.

    14 Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic there on

    15 20th November 1991?

    16 A. Probably, but I did not recognise him because

    17 I did not know who he was.

    18 Q. What were the circumstances under which you

    19 were taken outside of the hangar?

    20 A. The soldier took me out after having spent

    21 some time left of the door, I was taken outside the

    22 hangar. Kacic Igor was there, me, and gradually they

    23 brought some others and at the end there were nine of

    24 us. Then we went back to the hangar and they took down

    25 our names in two copies. One copy was given to a JNA

  46. 1 soldier, a JNA officer who said he was a member of the

    2 military security in the JNA.

    3 Q. You indicated that nine of you were taken

    4 outside. Did all nine of you remain together?

    5 A. When we were about to go towards the van to

    6 take us to Vukovar a Chetnik came up, who beat Damir

    7 Kovacic and asked, "what is Igor Kacic doing there?".

    8 One of the soldiers had put him aside because he was

    9 young. He was only 16. Then this one said, "he has to

    10 go back into the hangar. His father is an Ustasha".

    11 Then we set off towards the van and a Miroluub ran up

    12 to us, a Chetnik. I had the impression that he was some

    13 kind of commander there, and a man with a stick was

    14 with us. He was an invalid from before the war, his

    15 name was Ivan Najasmic. And Miroluub asked the

    16 Chetniks who were escorting us why they were taking

    17 him. He is the HDZ secretary, so he was taken back as

    18 well so that seven of us remained.

    19 Q. How long did you remain outside the hangar,

    20 to the best of your knowledge?

    21 A. Right. About one hour, perhaps. As we were

    22 leaving it was already growing dark.

    23 Q. And you have indicated you were leaving.

    24 Where did you go from there?

    25 A. While we were still in front of the hangar we

  47. 1 heard the sound of heavy machinery in the distance.

    2 I do not know what -- they were earth-moving equipment

    3 or something like that, but we heard the sounds of this

    4 heavy equipment.

    5 We were first taken to the Velepromet, and

    6 they would not take us in there. There was no space

    7 there. So they took us to Modateks.

    8 Q. How were you transported from Ovcara to

    9 Velepromet and then to Modateks?

    10 A. In a van. We were in a van in the luggage

    11 area. We sat on some kind of crates.

    12 Q. Who else was in this combi-van with you?

    13 A. There were seven of us altogether, and some

    14 Chetniks were with us, but I cannot recall their faces

    15 because it was dark and I did not have my glasses on.

    16 Q. How long did you remain at Modateks after you

    17 arrived there?

    18 A. We arrived there at around 7 o'clock in the

    19 evening, and we spent the night on a marble table that

    20 was used for stretching cloth, and that is where we

    21 spent the night. In the morning the Chetniks arrived

    22 and questioned us, who we were and what we did. Then

    23 a Chetnik came and took me with him.

    24 Q. How did you come to be released from

    25 Modateks, after this Chetnik came and got you, where

  48. 1 did he take you?

    2 A. I was not released. He took me to a private

    3 house where there were mostly elderly people whose sons

    4 were in the Croatian army, that is in the guards, and

    5 the mother of this Chetnik was there. This was a house

    6 that he took and -- or made his own.

    7 Q. How long did you remain at this house?

    8 A. Until 14th December 1991.

    9 Q. And so you remained in Vukovar during this

    10 entire period; correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. During this time, did you ever have an

    13 opportunity to talk with any of the local Serbs about

    14 what had happened at Ovcara?

    15 A. They came to me daily and among them there

    16 were about four or five who were at Ovcara. I did not

    17 there ask anyone except for that one called Savic, and

    18 he told me, "they are all under the grass".

    19 Q. On 14th December where did you go?

    20 A. I went to Sid and I was there for five days

    21 and then I went to Belgrade. I was there until

    22 12th January and then I went through Bosnia on to

    23 Croatia.

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions

    25 of this witness, your Honour.

  49. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    2 MR. FILA: Before I start my questioning,

    3 I would like to object for the record to this mode of

    4 questioning. This witness has twice given statements

    5 and has never mentioned Dokmanovic, including the Rule

    6 61 hearing.

    7 I am trying to be tolerant. I am trying to

    8 accept that I was not given the additional statement of

    9 the witness, but if I do not react, I may be put in

    10 a similar situation in the future and this is why

    11 I want to raise this objection.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fila, the evidence which the

    13 witness gave about your client -- I fully support what

    14 you say, that there was no indication that such

    15 evidence was going to be given, and before such

    16 evidence is given, there should be some indication so

    17 that you are aware of it. I am sure the Prosecution

    18 will bear that in mind in future.

    19 As for the evidence, in effect, what he said,

    20 analysing it, was that he did not know your client,

    21 asked if he was aware, or had he seen, and that was my

    22 suggestion, he said he could not -- he probably was

    23 there, but he could not say because he did not know

    24 him. So, in effect, that evidence is of no worth at all

    25 because he was not able to recognise him and clearly,

  50. 1 it would not amount, I think I could say, to any form

    2 of identification. I hope that assists.

    3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if I may reply,

    4 that was our position, that this was no identification

    5 whatsoever, and the way that the witness stated it was

    6 perhaps not what we expected, but in any event, he made

    7 no identification of Mr. Dokmanovic.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That must be the solution,

    9 but if a question of that sort is going to be asked,

    10 there should be some prior warning that it is intended

    11 to ask the witness such a question because it is such

    12 a direct matter, going to identification.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    14 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    15 Q. You mentioned that on 19th you were at the

    16 hospital?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Do you know whether anybody was taken out on

    19 19th on the part of the Chetniks, paramilitary,

    20 soldiers, anyone? I mean of the people who were at the

    21 hospital?

    22 A. Yes, on 19th most people left the hospital.

    23 Q. Sorry, we did not understand each other. Were

    24 they taken out forcibly by anyone?

    25 A. When somebody tells you to climb on a truck

  51. 1 and take -- go to Velepromet, that is forcible, to me.

    2 Q. I am talking about the 19th.

    3 A. Very well.

    4 Q. Do you know whether any one of them ended up

    5 in Ovcara?

    6 A. Of those who were taken out on 19th? No, I do

    7 not know.

    8 Q. Among the JNA personnel who came, did they

    9 have the five point stars on their hats? Sljivancanin

    10 and the rest of them?

    11 A. I do not recall any five point stars. I only

    12 recall seeing --

    13 Q. What? White Eagles?

    14 A. No, white -- red flags without a star.

    15 Q. So that would... very well, there is no

    16 problem. There is a tape that exists. Were also among

    17 them some local Serbs among the paramilitary?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Were these the local Serbs who know Vukovar

    20 as, for instance, you know Vukovar?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did they need any other assistance so that

    23 the JNA would move through Vukovar or were the Serbs

    24 enough in order for them to be shown things around?

    25 A. Was it -- I did not understand the question.

  52. 1 Q. You said that they knew Vukovar. All these

    2 local people would be able to show them where the bus

    3 station was, where everything else was.

    4 A. As far as I knew, the military had very

    5 precise maps. They did not need anyone to guide them.

    6 Q. Thank you very much. Just another thing,

    7 since you took part in the battle in some way, it does

    8 not matter how, who was in the area between Negoslavci

    9 and Vukovar during the battle? Let us say in September,

    10 October, November, while you were -- how shall

    11 I express it -- free?

    12 A. There was the barracks there from a while

    13 back. I do not know who was there. I cannot claim, but

    14 it is certain that shells were coming from that area.

    15 So, the military and probably the Chetniks. I have some

    16 information that there were also Chetniks, some local

    17 ones and some that came from the outside.

    18 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor, you said what

    19 you meant by the word, "Chetnik". What do you mean by the

    20 word, "Ustasha"?

    21 A. For me, "Ustasha", is the historical army of

    22 the independent state of Croatia.

    23 Q. Were there such people in 1991?

    24 A. No, I refer to the history.

    25 Q. I understood that, but, were there any

  53. 1 contemporary ones?

    2 A. No, it was the 1941 through 45.

    3 Q. Were there any paramilitary formations in

    4 Vukovar?

    5 A. I am sorry, I did not see any.

    6 Q. Was this also historic thing, or, for

    7 instance, what power did they have?

    8 A. I do not know about -- oh, you mean as

    9 a historic person or somebody who had some paramilitary

    10 formations?

    11 Q. Were they armed formations?

    12 A. I did not see a single "paraga" there. I do

    13 not know if they were armed.

    14 Q. When you were going from the hospital to the

    15 JNA barracks, did you go directly or did you go to the

    16 Velepromet and then around, if you can recall?

    17 A. No. We went directly to the barracks.

    18 Q. Velepromet is across or a little further up?

    19 A. A little up.

    20 Q. How far up?

    21 A. About 100 metres.

    22 Q. I understand that you did not have a watch,

    23 but -- so it is difficult for you to orientate yourself

    24 in time, but what time of the day was it approximately

    25 when you arrived at Ovcara, and approximately, of

  54. 1 course?

    2 A. When we arrived at Ovcara?

    3 Q. Yes. When all these five or six buses, as you

    4 stated, arrived there.

    5 A. Between 2 and 3 o'clock.

    6 Q. You mean 2 or 3 in the afternoon?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And when did you leave?

    9 A. Between 5 and 6.

    10 Q. Okay. Between 5 and 6 in the afternoon, just

    11 to avoid confusion. Thank you.

    12 You mentioned the same Jurisic. He killed

    13 those two guardsmen?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. This person -- is this a person who has some

    16 fingers missing?

    17 A. No. It is a neighbour of mine. I know him

    18 quite well.

    19 Q. What is his name?

    20 A. Slobodan. He killed -- he executed a man who

    21 he had first wounded and then he stepped over him and

    22 executed him. That was on 26th or 27th.

    23 Q. If I understood correctly, you are -- or were

    24 left without your glasses when you were hit with the

    25 baton on your eyebrow.

  55. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. How strong are your glasses?

    3 A. About 2:25.

    4 Q. You -- after you left without your glasses

    5 you recognised some persons pretty well.

    6 A. Well, it is not such a bad sight.

    7 Q. Yes, I know, I have very similar. The reason

    8 I ask you is because later in a van, when you were

    9 seven, who did you recognise? Who did you know among

    10 these people?

    11 A. I knew -- I have answered that question.

    12 Q. Yes. If you do not want to -- if there is any

    13 kind of danger you can just write them down on a piece

    14 of paper. They do not have to be revealed.

    15 A. Excuse me, your Honours, do I need to answer

    16 this question?

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Why are you hesitating?

    18 May I ask you whether there is any particular reason?

    19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, some of these

    20 people are going to be testifying and are protected

    21 witnesses, so perhaps that is the concern of the

    22 witness, that he is aware that these other people have

    23 requested protection.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Would you object to his

    25 writing on a piece of paper as suggested by the Defence

  56. 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Could you please

    3 write them on a piece of paper? (Pause).

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Could I see that before it

    5 is tendered, please? We would have no objection to that

    6 being tendered.

    7 MR. FILA: You said that you did not see the

    8 stars in the hospital on 19th and 20th?

    9 A. Yes. That is what I said.

    10 Q. Very well. How about at Ovcara? Did you see

    11 anybody wearing these five-pointed stars? Did you serve

    12 the army, by the way?

    13 A. No, because of my eyes.

    14 Q. Yes. Me too. So do you recall anyone?

    15 A. I do not recall anybody at Ovcara.

    16 Q. So you do not recall seeing them? Do you

    17 remember in which bus you were there?

    18 A. The last.

    19 Q. Were any of these people that you wrote down

    20 with you on that bus?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. All of them or some of them?

    23 A. Some of them.

    24 Q. Would you please mark the ones who were there

    25 for me?

  57. 1 A. So this was the next to last.

    2 Q. Which one was it?

    3 A. If there were six it was the fifth, if there

    4 were five it was the fourth.

    5 Q. Very well. So fourth or fifth. Please just

    6 put a mark on each one that was on the bus with you.

    7 Excuse me, are you done?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Very well. I only have one last question,

    10 then. You said that there was some hay in this hangar?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. This is the last question, I apologise.

    13 I will not keep you much longer.

    14 Would that have meant that somebody slept on

    15 this hay or that somebody had stayed there before?

    16 A. This was an agricultural farm so I do not

    17 know what it was for.

    18 Q. Did you see any machinery there like

    19 combines, tractors, or earth movers?

    20 A. I think that there was something there but in

    21 the very back of the hangar.

    22 Q. You mean inside the hangar? I am referring to

    23 the outside.

    24 A. I only heard some heavy machinery outside.

    25 Q. Did you see any?

  58. 1 A. No, I did not.

    2 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. I have no

    3 further questions and I agree that the witness may be

    4 excused.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any

    6 re-examination?

    7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Just a moment, your Honour,

    8 please. (Pause). Your Honour, did Mr. Fila intend to

    9 tender this into evidence? Was it? Has it been tendered

    10 and given a number?

    11 MR. FILA: Yes, because I thought that maybe

    12 later I would confirm this list with others who may

    13 testify. No other reasons.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions,

    15 your Honour.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So this would be

    17 Defence exhibit number?


    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    20 I am sorry, I have a few questions. I am not

    21 clear about one or two points. First of all, you said

    22 nine persons -- you saw nine persons who were beaten.

    23 When and where were they beaten? The nine persons you

    24 indicated you saw in the picture? In the hangar or

    25 before entering the hangar? I did not understand you

  59. 1 correctly so I am just asking for a point of

    2 clarification.

    3 A. I do not know how many people I identified on

    4 this tape. If it is nine, then it is nine. They beat

    5 them before entering the hangar and inside the hangar.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Also inside the hangar. Yes.

    7 Tell me, so you -- they took off your glasses before

    8 you entered the hangar or in the hangar?

    9 A. When I entered the hangar. They did not take

    10 away my glasses but the Chetnik broke them with

    11 a baton.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: As soon as you entered the

    13 hangar they were broken.

    14 A. Yes, yes.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: And so I understand it, you

    16 are short-sighted?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: What sort of light was there

    19 in the hangar? How could you see the other people

    20 moving around in the hangar? How could you recognise

    21 the faces of other people? Was it daylight, because it

    22 was in the afternoon? In the afternoon, it was not yet

    23 dark. I understand what you said.

    24 A. There was daylight. There was daylight and

    25 close-up I can recognise people I know, and men I knew

  60. 1 them. Even if they were further away from me I could

    2 recognise them by their voices.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. So the light came in,

    4 entered the hangar from where? I am asking from where.

    5 A. Through the door, and there were some kind of

    6 windows up there.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. Can you remember how

    8 many windows?

    9 A. Along the edge of the ceiling there is one

    10 window next to another, just below the roof in a line,

    11 the whole length of the ceiling.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Did I understand you

    13 correctly? Did you mean to say that there were two

    14 windows, therefore, in the roof? One next to the other

    15 one?

    16 A. No. No. There is the roof, and then below

    17 that the whole length of the wall, there are windows.

    18 One next to another. I do not know how many.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: And in addition, how many

    20 doors were there in the hangar?

    21 A. Two on one side, two large ones, and I think

    22 there were another two on the other side.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: While you were in the hangar

    24 were the doors open or were they shut by the people who

    25 took you inside?

  61. 1 A. One door was open to the front.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: If you do not mind I would

    3 like to ask you a question relating to the -- what

    4 happened in June 1991. You spoke of the murder of two

    5 people who were murdered somewhere, I think, in

    6 Vukovar. Then at one point you mentioned that some

    7 soldiers were wearing the -- and I quote what you said,

    8 "the insignia of the Croatian army". Do you know when

    9 soldiers, Croatian soldiers started wearing the

    10 insignia of the Croatian army?

    11 A. Those two men were wearing the uniforms of

    12 the Croatian army and they came to the coffee bar to

    13 have a drink and these two came and killed them.


    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, but if I, again, have

    16 understood you correctly, that means that those two

    17 soldiers were not members of the JNA, at that stage.

    18 In June 1991, there were already soldiers wearing the

    19 uniform and the insignia of the Croatian army as

    20 distinct from the JNA.

    21 A. Yes, yes. That is the end of June. Somewhere

    22 around 27th June.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I understand

    24 there are no objections -- oh yes. Prosecutor?

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, perhaps for

  62. 1 clarification, we have some photographs of the hangar

    2 and this might elucidate a little further on the

    3 questions you are asking, so if these could be showed

    4 to the witness and placed on the ELMO, perhaps this

    5 would help to answer your questions.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection?

    7 MR. WILLIAMSON: This would be Prosecutor's

    8 Exhibit 20. I would ask that it be turned to the fourth

    9 photograph from the rear. I am sorry, the fifth

    10 photograph from the rear and then to go forward from

    11 that point.

    12 If the usher could bring it over here I can

    13 pinpoint the page.

    14 Witness P, if you can indicate to the court

    15 what is depicted in this first photograph?

    16 A. This is the hangar where we were brought.

    17 This is one door, and windows below the roof. This is

    18 the hangar. (Indicated).

    19 Q. Perhaps if the overhead lights could be

    20 dimmed a little bit, I think there is quite

    21 a reflection on here. It might make it a little

    22 clearer.

    23 That is fine. Thank you.

    24 If you can, could you just indicate one more

    25 time what you have just pointed out?

  63. 1 A. This is one of the doors. All of this is the

    2 hangar. These are the windows, just below the roof that

    3 I was talking about. This is the other door that was

    4 shut, and on the rear side I think there were also two

    5 doors but they were closed and there were also windows

    6 parallel to these on the other side.

    7 Q. Which door were you and the other men brought

    8 in on 20th November?

    9 A. This way, the buses were lined up here and

    10 then one by one they would park here. The Chetniks were

    11 standing on both sides of this drive. We had to pass

    12 between them. On the one side they collected the

    13 documents, and the group of us nine and afterwards

    14 seven were lined up here.

    15 Q. Now, if you would turn to the next page,

    16 please, and if the view can be brought out a little bit

    17 to show the whole photograph?

    18 A. This is the door. The men were standing

    19 alongside the walls. The Chetniks were here, and I was

    20 standing right here when I was separated, together with

    21 Vejekoslav.

    22 Q. Again, if you would turn to the next

    23 photograph, please?

    24 A. This is the interior of the hangar. This was

    25 taken from the entrance. This is the other door that

  64. 1 I mentioned. Here are the windows. Roughly here was the

    2 hay. This is where they killed one man. I was here.

    3 I was standing somewhere here. This is where they beat

    4 Damir Kovacic. All this is very close. Kemo was dragged

    5 out from here and beaten here and as I knew him, and

    6 regardless of my eyesight, I knew his figure, I knew

    7 his clothing, so it was easy to see, and especially

    8 here when Kovacic was being beaten. (Indicated).

    9 Q. And if you would turn to the next photograph,

    10 please.

    11 A. It was roughly from this spot that the

    12 photograph was taken, that the guard stood. I was here,

    13 and roughly in the middle somewhere here, was a JNA

    14 officer. (Indicated).

    15 Q. You have indicated early in your testimony

    16 that at the time that you were in there there was no

    17 machinery in the hangar, though. Is that correct?

    18 A. If I could go back to the previous

    19 photograph, something like this may have been here at

    20 the back, but this is not a machine, it is an

    21 accessory. So it was somewhere here in the back. One or

    22 two of these things. These accessories. They are not

    23 machines themselves.

    24 MR WILLIAMSON: Very well. Your Honour,

    25 I have no further questions.

  65. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    2 MR. FILA: No, only he forgot to describe the

    3 officer. I do not know whether that has any

    4 significance.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: What do you mean, "describe

    6 the officer"? He said that there was a JNA officer

    7 standing in the middle of the hangar. Do you want to

    8 ask him a question about the officer?

    9 MR. FILA: I thought perhaps it might be

    10 interesting to hear what he looked like, what rank he

    11 had, and that sort of thing.

    12 A. I do not know the rank because I never served

    13 the army. He was in a regular uniform of the JNA. He

    14 had a cap on his head. He was rather fat, about 170,

    15 and with grey-ish hair.

    16 Q. Did he have a moustache?

    17 A. I think he did not.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Any objection to

    19 the witness being released?

    20 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you so much

    22 for coming here to testify. You may now be released.

    23 Are you going to call...

    24 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, your Honours.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Are you going to call

  66. 1 Witness K?

    2 MR. WAESPI: Yes. It is Witness K.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask you

    4 what sort of protection you intend to provide to the

    5 witness?

    6 MR. WAESPI: This witness would like to have

    7 his face protected as well, but his voice will be his

    8 own.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Good. Thank you.

    10 (The witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you

    12 to make the solemn declaration?

    13 WITNESS K (sworn)

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    15 Examined by MR WAESPI

    16 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I would like to

    17 show the witness now a piece of paper and I would like

    18 to ask him whether the name of this piece of paper is

    19 his name, and I would ask him to say, "yes", or, "no".

    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. WAESPI: I would tender that as our next

    22 Prosecution exhibit under seal. It might be 46 or 47.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: 47.

    24 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.

    25 Now, I will refer to you as, "Witness K",

  67. 1 from now on.

    2 Are you feeling comfortable, Witness K?

    3 A. Yes, thank you.

    4 Q. Do you recall that you were interviewed on

    5 7th September 1995 by an investigator from this

    6 Tribunal?

    7 A. Yes, I do recall.

    8 Q. And did you recall that you signed a document

    9 which was the English translation of this interview?

    10 A. Yes, I remember.

    11 Q. Thank you. Can I ask the usher to show him

    12 both the English original and the Croatian translation

    13 and ask him whether he sees his signature at the bottom

    14 of the English original.

    15 Is that your signature?

    16 A. Yes, that is my signature.

    17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you. Thank you very much.

    18 I would like to tender that as the next

    19 Prosecution exhibit, that is 48, and the Croatian

    20 translation would be 48A. Both under seal.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection, Mr. Fila? No

    22 objection? Thank you.

    23 MR. WAESPI: Witness K, where were you born?

    24 A. In Zagreb.

    25 Q. Is that the place where you lived most of

  68. 1 your life?

    2 A. My whole life.

    3 Q. Thank you. Could you please outline quickly

    4 for us your educational background?

    5 A. I completed elementary school then secondary

    6 school for transportation and I am now studying

    7 physical education and I also went to some military

    8 schools.

    9 Q. What is your profession now?

    10 A. I am a professional officer of the Croatian

    11 army.

    12 Q. Did you ever serve in the JNA?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Did you serve in another army?

    15 A. No. Only in the Croatian army.

    16 Q. When did you join the Croatian army?

    17 A. On 10th August 1991.

    18 Q. Why did you decide to join the Croatian army?

    19 A. I was about 20 at the time. My homeland,

    20 Croatia, was in danger. There was war in the air, and

    21 I thought it was necessary for me to join in the

    22 defence of its sovereignty.

    23 Q. Where did you register for going into the

    24 Croatian army?

    25 A. In Zagreb. In the settlement of Rakitje.

  69. 1 Q. Did you sign a piece of paper, a contract?

    2 A. Yes. I signed a contract joining the guards,

    3 the People's Guards.

    4 Q. Did you sign any type of oath on that paper?

    5 A. Yes. One could call it that, yes.

    6 Q. Can you tell us approximately what the

    7 wording was on that contract?

    8 A. I pledged to protect the interests of the

    9 Croatian state, its sovereignty, its people and

    10 citizens living in it, and if necessary, that I would

    11 be willing to lay down my life in defence of those

    12 goals. That was the most important thing, and then also

    13 some rights and duties were indicated of me as a member

    14 of the People's Guards.

    15 Q. Were you paid for rendering these services?

    16 A. Yes, I received a salary.

    17 Q. Who did pay you that salary?

    18 A. The Croatian state.

    19 Q. For how long did this contract last?

    20 A. We signed for three years.

    21 Q. Did you get any training?

    22 A. Yes. Brief, basic training.

    23 Q. Where did you receive this training?

    24 A. In a place called Kumrovec.

    25 Q. Is it in Croatia?

  70. 1 A. Yes, yes, in the Zagorje region of Croatia.

    2 Q. Did you wear any uniforms?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Was there any indication on the uniform or

    5 coat or hat that this was a uniform of the Croatian

    6 army?

    7 A. There were Croatian coat of arms and the

    8 Croatian flag.

    9 Q. Did there come a time when you went to

    10 Vukovar?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Can you recall the date?

    13 A. 30th of September, 1st October. I entered

    14 Vukovar on 1st October at 3.30 am.

    15 Q. Who gave you the command to go to Vukovar?

    16 A. I personally was given the command by my

    17 commander, Perkovic.

    18 Q. Is he also in the Croatian army?

    19 A. Yes, yes.

    20 Q. What was your unit composed of?

    21 A. My unit had 20 men. It was divided into two

    22 detachments of ten men each.

    23 Q. Were you the leading of one of those two

    24 detachments?

    25 A. I led the second detachment with 10 men in

  71. 1 it.

    2 Q. What kind of unit was that?

    3 A. An infantry unit.

    4 Q. Who were your subordinates, the ten people

    5 you mentioned?

    6 A. They were soldiers, just like me.

    7 Q. Are they also from Zagreb, from the area you

    8 are coming from?

    9 A. Most of them.

    10 Q. What kind of weapons did you have?

    11 A. Mostly infantry weapons and anti-armoured

    12 weapons.

    13 Q. Now, what happened when your unit arrived in

    14 Vukovar that night in the morning of October 1st?

    15 A. First, we replaced a unit that was already in

    16 Vukovar at the silo. We took up those positions there,

    17 and we protected those positions from attack from the

    18 Danube.

    19 Q. So this location you were positioned at was

    20 located at the Danube. Is that what you are saying?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. You protected those positions against attacks

    23 from the Danube, you just said. Who was on the other

    24 side of the Danube?

    25 A. On the other side was the Yugoslav People's

  72. 1 Army.

    2 Q. Can you tell us what weapons the soldiers of

    3 the JNA had?

    4 A. In view of the weapons they fired at us, they

    5 had artillery, aeroplanes, so they targeted us with

    6 shells, cannon, and aircraft. They had all the weaponry

    7 that they had at their disposal.

    8 Q. At your position at the Danube, did you ever

    9 have any contacts with the enemy? I mean, did you have

    10 any infantry contacts with the enemy? You mentioned

    11 shelling before.

    12 A. No. We did not have any infantry contact. On

    13 one occasion they tried to cross the Danube but one

    14 could not really call it an operation or an action.

    15 There were no infantry contacts with them at the silo.

    16 Q. After you left the position at the Danube,

    17 did you move to another location in the city of

    18 Vukovar?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Can you tell us where this location was?

    21 A. It was mostly in the Prvomajska Street, or

    22 1st May Street.

    23 Q. Here at this location, do you have any

    24 infantry contacts with the JNA?

    25 A. Yes. Yes.

  73. 1 Q. Did you also have infantry contacts with

    2 other forces apart from JNA, like paramilitaries?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Can you tell us the difference between those

    5 two groups, between the JNA and the paramilitaries?

    6 A. The difference is in the clothing, their

    7 insignia, that is the greatest difference.

    8 Q. From your impression in combat, can you tell

    9 us whether you thought they acted in concert, they

    10 acted together?

    11 A. Well, since they were attacking us together,

    12 it is logical to conclude that they were acting in

    13 concert. Logic tells you that you cannot engage in an

    14 operation unless you have co-ordination and agreement.

    15 Q. Did you have the impression that one of those

    16 two groups, the paramilitaries and the JNA forces was

    17 superior to the other?

    18 A. Well, in view of the fact that the JNA had

    19 the weaponry and the logistics, so I can only draw the

    20 logical conclusion that the paramilitary formations

    21 were subordinated to the Yugoslav People's Army and of

    22 course they had the educated people so probably they

    23 were in control. That is my conclusion.

    24 Q. You are a professional soldier. When you

    25 looked at those two forces, at the soldiers from the

  74. 1 JNA and the ones from the paramilitaries, was there any

    2 difference in terms of behaviour in combat, their

    3 appearance, the way they were fighting?

    4 A. Mostly in the front-lines were the JNA

    5 soldiers. That is as far as I was able to observe. The

    6 others were a little bit in the rear. At least in the

    7 area in which I operated there was the Yugoslav

    8 People's Army, mostly.

    9 Q. Now, was there a time when you went to the

    10 Vukovar hospital?

    11 A. I went to the Vukovar hospital on several

    12 occasions and that is where I was at a time of the

    13 surrender.

    14 Q. When did you surrender? Do you recall the

    15 date?


    17 A. To me the surrender was on 20th November when

    18 the army took over and when they put us on buses. For

    19 me that marks the date of surrender.

    20 Q. When was the time when you entered the

    21 hospital and remained there for a couple of days? Can

    22 you recall that date?

    23 A. You must understand that six and a half years

    24 have passed, and I will say that perhaps it was the

    25 17th but it could have been 18th as well.

  75. 1 Q. Can you tell us the reason why you

    2 surrendered?

    3 A. In those moments I saw no other solution.

    4 I had no choice and I had no way out.

    5 Q. Were you the only unit that surrendered?

    6 A. No. We were not.

    7 Q. So there were many units that surrendered?

    8 A. Yes. The entire town surrendered, so all the

    9 military who were there at the time had to surrender.

    10 Q. So the effect of that mass surrender was that

    11 the fighting had stopped in those days?

    12 A. Yes. You could say that in the last two days

    13 there were no -- there was no fighting because the

    14 Yugoslav People's Army saw that everything was gone,

    15 that there were no positions left, that there was no

    16 resistance, so that was logical.

    17 Q. Can you describe the situation you

    18 encountered in the hospital when you entered it on

    19 a date which might be 16th or 17th?

    20 A. At that time there was already a big crowd at

    21 the hospital because everybody was pulling back towards

    22 the area of the hospital. There were a lot of civilians

    23 in there and a lot of children, a lot of wounded.

    24 Everybody gathered there, whoever was leaving their

    25 shelters would be retreating towards the hospital. So

  76. 1 there was a big mess, there was panic and a lot of

    2 fear.

    3 Q. Did you take your weapons into the hospital?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. How many people, how many subordinates of

    6 your unit did surrender together with you?

    7 A. I cannot give you the exact number, but about

    8 seven or eight people.

    9 Q. Did they have weapons when they entered the

    10 hospital?

    11 A. No. Most of them were wounded so they went to

    12 the hospital and there they did not bring their

    13 weapons.

    14 Q. Were you personally wounded?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Did you wear a uniform in the hospital?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Did you become aware that on November

    19 19th the JNA entered the hospital?

    20 A. Yes. I saw them in the evening hours of 19th.

    21 It may have been close to midnight. I do not remember

    22 exactly.

    23 Q. Turning now to the 20th November, were you

    24 some time in the morning told to get out of the

    25 building?

  77. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Can you recall after all this time what time

    3 you were called out of the hospital?

    4 A. I will try to remember. I think that the time

    5 was between 9 and 10.

    6 Q. What did you see outside the hospital

    7 building?

    8 A. First I saw a lot of our people in civilian

    9 clothes. I saw the JNA soldiers. I saw their local

    10 forces, the paramilitaries. I also saw some military

    11 vehicles. I saw the APCs.

    12 Q. What happened to you personally when you left

    13 the hospital building? Were you stopped at some point?

    14 A. Yes. We were all stopped there at the

    15 entrance to the hospital, and we were searched by the

    16 JNA soldiers.

    17 Q. Were there more JNA soldiers around other

    18 than the ones who were conducting the searches?

    19 A. Yes. There were others as security.

    20 Q. How many soldiers were there in total?

    21 A. I do not know the number, but there was

    22 enough of them to protect themselves from some

    23 potential reaction of ours which obviously was not

    24 coming. There were a lot of them.

    25 Q. Were those soldiers armed?

  78. 1 A. Yes, they were.

    2 Q. You described JNA soldiers and also others,

    3 paramilitaries. Is that correct? Are you talking about

    4 paramilitaries?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. You said there were many soldiers. Can you

    7 tell us whether there were more JNA soldiers or more

    8 paramilitary soldiers?

    9 A. There were more JNA soldiers.

    10 Q. Did you see only soldiers or were there also

    11 officers with a rank?

    12 A. I did not look at it personally, nor did I

    13 see -- look, but based on a rank, and everything I saw

    14 that they were issuing commands, the way they spoke.

    15 Q. In your opinion at that time, was your

    16 impression that this scene was organised or was it

    17 chaotic?

    18 A. No. It was not chaotic. Everything was

    19 organised.

    20 Q. Did you see a person called Sljivancanin?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. When did you see him?

    23 A. As I was leaving the hospital.

    24 Q. Can you tell us his appearance? How was he

    25 dressed?

  79. 1 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, and he

    2 had the five-pointed star on his head. He had moustache

    3 on. He was tall, taller than me. He also stood out

    4 because he was yelling at some soldiers to move along.

    5 As I was coming out of the hospital, there was

    6 something stopped and so as I remember him, yelling at

    7 his soldiers at that time.

    8 Q. How many minutes or how long did you see

    9 Sljivancanin?

    10 A. My -- I guess I saw him for no more than five

    11 minutes. That is my best recollection.

    12 Q. After these searches you described, where

    13 were you then taken to?

    14 A. They put us on buses.

    15 Q. Can you tell us what kind of buses? Colour,

    16 maybe?

    17 A. I think they were civilians. Maybe there were

    18 some military there as well, but at that time it was

    19 not very important to me.

    20 Q. Do you recall how many buses there were

    21 standing?

    22 A. Five.

    23 Q. Do you recall on which of those five buses

    24 you were boarded?

    25 A. I also do not have a full recollection but it

  80. 1 was probably fourth or fifth. I was one of the last

    2 ones to board.

    3 Q. Were these buses parked inside the hospital

    4 yard or outside?

    5 A. No. Outside in the street behind the back or

    6 the rear entrance to the hospital.

    7 Q. Were there guards on your bus?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Were they armed?

    10 A. Yes, yes they were.

    11 Q. These guards, were they JNA or paramilitary

    12 soldiers?

    13 A. JNA guards.

    14 Q. How many people were with you on that bus?

    15 A. Since there are 50-55 seats on a bus, I guess

    16 that was about the number of people who were on the

    17 bus.

    18 Q. Did you know one or the other of those

    19 passengers on the bus?

    20 A. Yes, I did.

    21 Q. Can you give us the name or the names?

    22 A. I knew Zeloko Majer, and I think Ivan Gruber

    23 and I knew some other people from sight, but since

    24 I was not from Vukovar I did not know their names.

    25 Q. Those two persons, were they members of your

  81. 1 unit?

    2 A. Yes. Zeloko Majer came to Vukovar together

    3 with me and Gruber arrived a bit earlier, but we were

    4 all in the same unit.

    5 Q. Were there also women or kids on the bus, or

    6 only men?

    7 A. There were no children, there was one woman

    8 with his -- with her husband on the bus. Later they

    9 were made to get off the bus. There were no other

    10 women.

    11 Q. Do we know what time of day you entered the

    12 bus?

    13 A. I can only estimate it. The search did not

    14 last more than half an hour, between fifteen minutes

    15 and half an hour, so between 10 o'clock, 10.30, we

    16 boarded the buses and moved on.

    17 Q. Were you told where the trip went to?

    18 A. The JNA soldiers and their superiors did not

    19 tell us where we were going.

    20 Q. And where did the trip go to, in fact?

    21 A. We went through the city and then we came to

    22 the Vukovar barracks.

    23 Q. Did you go slow or fast with this bus? Do you

    24 remember that?

    25 A. Relatively slow through the city.

  82. 1 Q. Did it go slow because there was still

    2 fighting going on?

    3 A. No, no. There was no fighting anymore.

    4 Q. How long did it take for you, for the bus to

    5 arrive at this new destination?

    6 A. I will attempt again to estimate. I think

    7 about half an hour.

    8 Q. What happened at the barracks? First of all,

    9 did you see any soldiers around?

    10 A. Well, yes. I saw soldiers because part of

    11 these soldiers was escorting these buses that we were

    12 on. I saw a tank, I saw an APC, buildings, JNA

    13 soldiers, Chetniks.

    14 Q. In your impression you had at that time, do

    15 you think that the soldiers you met now around the

    16 barracks were part of the same organisation like the

    17 ones you have seen at the hospital?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What makes you have this impression?

    20 A. They were there together, they spoke

    21 together, they drove together, inspected the same

    22 vehicle. They were mixed but you could tell that the

    23 JNA had a leading role. They all carried weapons.

    24 Q. Did those soldiers you just described enter

    25 your bus?

  83. 1 A. There were two JNA guards on our bus and did

    2 not allow anyone to board it. The Chetniks would come

    3 to the door. They would make noise, they would curse,

    4 but they were not coming onto the bus.

    5 Q. Did at one point the JNA soldier came on

    6 board of the bus with a list of names?

    7 A. Not a soldier. There was a captain who got on

    8 the bus and he read out some names and these people got

    9 off.

    10 Q. Can you tell us the appearance of this

    11 captain?

    12 A. He looked to me to be pretty -- well, tall

    13 and strong. He had a hat with a -- a blue beret with

    14 the five-pointed star on it. I think he had a dark

    15 complexion.

    16 Q. Thank you. Did you see what happened to the

    17 people who were taken out of the bus, according to that

    18 list?

    19 A. They were taken to another bus which was

    20 parked off to the side and was empty.

    21 Q. Did you see what happened to those people

    22 when they entered the bus?

    23 A. I only saw Chetniks beating one person. The

    24 soldiers were taking him somewhere and then the

    25 Chetniks ran over there and beat him. He was the only

  84. 1 one that I saw being beaten and the rest were just

    2 boarding the bus and sitting down.

    3 Q. How long did you remain in the vicinity of

    4 these barracks?

    5 A. To me it seemed very long, 2-3 hours in the

    6 compound of the barracks.

    7 Q. Are you able to tell us what time in the day

    8 the buses left again?

    9 A. I think it was about 2 o'clock, 2.30 in the

    10 afternoon when we moved on.

    11 Q. Into which direction did you move on?

    12 A. At that time, I did not know the direction in

    13 which we were going, but when we arrived at Ovcara

    14 I knew that I was at Ovcara so that is where we were

    15 going. At that time I actually did not know that this

    16 was Ovcara.

    17 Q. Were there still guards on the bus?

    18 A. Yes, yes.

    19 Q. And were these guards the same as had entered

    20 the bus already in the hospital?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did the other buses which had started with

    23 you at the hospital, were still following you, your bus

    24 now, or were in front of your bus?

    25 A. Yes. It was a convoy, and the bus in which

  85. 1 they later separated some people out joined the convoy

    2 in which we were.

    3 Q. Now, you just mentioned that you arrived at

    4 the place you later learned was called Ovcara.

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. How long did it take to arrive at Ovcara?

    7 A. I will give my estimate. Again it may not be

    8 accurate. I think it should not have taken more than

    9 half an hour.

    10 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit more about the

    11 location. What did you see? Were there buildings?

    12 A. We first arrived at a compound. I think that

    13 there were two or three structures there after the

    14 left, and then we made a right turn, maybe 1, 2,

    15 300 metres. That is not so important. Off to the right

    16 there was this hangar where buses came to a stop.

    17 I think that my bus was next to the last in this

    18 convoy.

    19 When we arrived there I saw JNA soldiers,

    20 Chetniks. The ones who were in front of the hospital

    21 who went with us to the barracks, they were there

    22 again. I saw some military vehicles, APCs, a couple of

    23 civilian vehicles, and after that when we came to stop

    24 people slowly started getting off the buses one by one.

    25 Q. What did you see then when you personally had

  86. 1 to get off the bus?

    2 A. I saw that in front of the hangar a gauntlet

    3 or was -- was created by the Chetniks and people were

    4 passing through there. Everything of value was -- they

    5 were stripped off, and we were wearing -- the

    6 Catholics, we were wearing crowns and that was all

    7 taken away from us and then we would get beaten and as

    8 we were passing through and entering the hangar, a pile

    9 of all these valuables and belongings was growing.

    10 Q. Were you personally taken from the bus and

    11 then you had to run through this -- what you described

    12 as, "gauntlet", or were you -- did you meet somebody?

    13 A. When we got off the buses, we did not run. We

    14 had to first stand there and then move slowly towards

    15 the gauntlet and as I was approaching it, that is about

    16 20-30 metres before you reach this gauntlet. These

    17 young soldiers, the JNA soldiers would ask us, "who are

    18 you, where are you from?". I guess they were

    19 interested in that at that time, who we were and where

    20 we were from so a soldier approached me and asked me

    21 where I was from. I told him I was from Zagreb. He

    22 shook his hands, and he said, "Well, you have really

    23 got stuck here. I have a couple of days and I am off to

    24 Ruma". I said, "Oh, I have a friend in Ruma", and he

    25 asked me, "who is your friend? Where does he live?".

  87. 1 I remembered that he was somewhere near to the JNA hall

    2 and I remembered the address more or less. I told him

    3 the name of my friend in Ruma. He told me that he knew

    4 this man.

    5 I was already approaching this gauntlet, and

    6 I told him, "could you please save me, if you can?",

    7 and he sort of shrugged his -- he shrugged and he said,

    8 "God will save you", so then at that point I reached

    9 this gauntlet.

    10 Q. After you had to go through this gauntlet,

    11 where did you arrive at?

    12 A. I arrived at a door to the hangar. I remember

    13 that to the right I heard, "there is Sinilsav

    14 Slovakovic, he is an Ustasha", and so they beat him and

    15 I passed by and then I started getting a beating. There

    16 were three soldiers who beat me. I do not recall how

    17 they looked like, what they were wearing, whether they

    18 were JNA, whether they were Chetniks, I do not recall

    19 any of that.

    20 Q. How long were you beaten? How long did this

    21 time last of beating with regard to you, yourself?

    22 A. Unlike the others who were beaten, I cannot

    23 call what I received a big beating because it did not

    24 take more than five minutes.

    25 Q. What happened after those five minutes?

  88. 1 A. The young man with whom I had established

    2 contact outside came as an escort of the JNA officers,

    3 and there was also another soldier which is what

    4 I figured out later. His friend, I guess, and now I am

    5 going to try to quote as close as I remember. He

    6 pointed at me, he said, "do not beat him any longer",

    7 and then he turned to his officer and he said,

    8 "Captain, can I save this man? He is a good man.

    9 I know him from before. Can I take him out of the

    10 hangar?", and the captain at that time said, "take him

    11 out and keep him there so that the Chetniks would not

    12 do anything". After that, I was taken out.

    13 MR WAESPI: Maybe that is the right time,

    14 your Honours, to have the break.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: How much time do you need to

    16 complete your examination?

    17 MR. WAESPI: Maybe quarter of an hour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Then let us have

    19 a break now and we will resume the hearing at 2.30

    20 sharp.

    21 (1.00 pm)

    22 (Luncheon adjournment)




  89. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, your Honours. I would

    4 like to continue examination of Witness K.

    5 Witness K, you said just before the lunch

    6 break that you were taken out or rather saved, as you

    7 have stated it, by this solder from Ruma who was

    8 together with somebody you described as a captain. Now

    9 can you first tell us what the solder from Ruma looked

    10 like? His appearance.

    11 A. He was of my height, about 1.75 metres. He

    12 had light brown hair. He had a green jacket on him,

    13 something like a Spitfire jacket, like a pilot's

    14 jacket. As for arms, we called it a pump gun, and he

    15 looked young. He was not more than twenty, for sure. He

    16 looked as if he did not even shave yet.

    17 Q. Would you describe him as a JNA soldier?

    18 A. He said himself that he was a JNA soldier,

    19 and that he was due to go home any day now, in two or

    20 three days' time.

    21 Q. Now, turning to the other person you

    22 described as a captain, can you describe him?

    23 A. He was taller than me, heavier build. He had

    24 a blue beret on him with a five-cornered star on it,

    25 and almost certain that he is the same captain that

  90. 1 appeared at the Vukovar barracks who entered the bus

    2 with a list of names.

    3 Q. So you have seen this person before, the same

    4 day.

    5 A. Yes, yes.

    6 Q. Now, where were you taken outside the hangar?

    7 A. I was taken to the side outside the hangar,

    8 next to the hangar wall by the door.

    9 Q. And what did you do there and for how long?

    10 A. We stood there, this group, all of us who had

    11 been set aside, I did not do anything. I just stood

    12 there. I was guarded by the soldiers. That is all.

    13 Q. Was the door open, the one you just left, who

    14 led into the hangar?

    15 A. Yes. The door was open, but I should like to

    16 go back for a moment. You asked me how much time

    17 I spent there. In my view, it was at least an hour and

    18 a half that I stood there outside the hangar.

    19 Q. Was this soldier from Ruma all the time with

    20 you during that hour?

    21 A. Most of the time and when he was not there

    22 then this other friend of his who was also a soldier.

    23 Q. Was there a lot of coming and going out of

    24 that door to the hangar, in the time you have been

    25 waiting outside?

  91. 1 A. Yes. Mostly the soldiers, the JNA soldiers

    2 were coming in, going out, and the Chetniks.

    3 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that there were

    4 other people who have been waiting with you and who

    5 have been guarded also by the one or the two soldiers.

    6 Can you name us these people who were with you?

    7 A. (redacted), Perkofer, Zakalic, Perkovic,

    8 that is it. I know that there were seven of us. I do

    9 not know all the names.

    10 Q. Did you see Sljivancanin at that time?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Do you know what happened to those two

    13 persons you mentioned earlier who were with you on the

    14 bus? Gruber Mijor?

    15 A. When we entered the hangar I did not see

    16 Gruber, but I saw Mijor because he was close to me, and

    17 he had his head and arm bandaged, and I saw him and he

    18 was being beaten, so they stayed behind in the hangar.

    19 Q. During the time you were waiting outside the

    20 hangar, did you see a woman who was crying and who

    21 approached one of the officers?

    22 A. Yes, I did.

    23 Q. Can you describe to us what that incident

    24 was?

    25 A. I do not know where she came from, but she

  92. 1 suddenly appeared. There were several officers there

    2 and she was crying. She was crying and begging that her

    3 son be brought from the hangar because her son had

    4 nothing to do with the army or the war, because he was

    5 retarded from birth. In response to this, this JNA

    6 officer went inside to the hangar and brought this

    7 young man out and I remember that he told her, "go away

    8 now and you must know that it was Colonel" -- now I am

    9 not sure whether he said Ivankovic or Ivanovic, "who

    10 saved your son".

    11 Q. And your impression was that this officer who

    12 was together with this woman, he was addressing himself

    13 as a Colonel Ivankovic or Ivanovic. He was not talking

    14 about somebody else but himself.

    15 A. He went with her inside and he brought the

    16 young boy out, so probably he was talking about

    17 himself.

    18 Q. Can you describe to us his appearance?

    19 A. I will try. He was taller than me, between

    20 1.80 and 1.85 metres in my assessment. He had some grey

    21 hair, he was of a strong build, he had male voice, and

    22 I know he was wearing a long soldier's coat.

    23 Q. The woman you just described, was she the

    24 only woman you have seen at this farming location?

    25 A. Yes. She was the only woman that I saw.

  93. 1 Q. After this waiting period of approximately

    2 one hour, were you taken back into the hangar?

    3 A. Yes. We were all briefly taken back to the

    4 hangar for our names to be listed, registered.

    5 Q. Do you recall just before you entered the

    6 hangar, was it already dark at that time or was it

    7 daylight? How would you describe the situation?

    8 A. It was already getting dark. It was dusk. One

    9 might say it was dark.

    10 Q. How did this registering proceed? Was there

    11 a table, and who was putting down the names, if

    12 anybody?

    13 A. I cannot remember whether there was a table

    14 or some boxes. I cannot remember that, but I know that

    15 two or three soldiers, JNA soldiers were sitting at

    16 that improvised table and taking down the names. It was

    17 quite dark inside. There was a low light, a dim light.

    18 Q. Were there also other sources of light except

    19 those bulbs or this low light you were referring to?

    20 A. I remember that the JNA soldiers parked

    21 a vehicle in front of the door and switched on the

    22 lights so as to light up the interior of the hangar.

    23 Q. Now, if you looked around the hangar, did you

    24 still see people being beaten at that time?

    25 A. They did not beat them any more then.

  94. 1 Q. Can you tell us how the scene looked? Were

    2 the people standing or lying on the ground?

    3 A. Some people were sitting down. Others were

    4 moving around, lying on the floor and there were some

    5 who were lying without any movement.

    6 Q. How many people were in the hangar at that

    7 time?

    8 A. There were all of our people who had come to

    9 the hangar, and about 100 of their soldiers, though

    10 I beg the court not to take me by my word when I give

    11 this number because I am not sure.

    12 Q. The people who were lying around on the

    13 ground, what was your impression? Were those injured?

    14 A. Since it was cold, they probably were not

    15 lying there for no reason. They were probably injured

    16 and that is why they were lying down.

    17 Q. Did you hear any sound coming from them? From

    18 those people?

    19 A. There were no loud cries or screams as were

    20 heard during the beating but one could hear subdued

    21 moans.

    22 Q. What did the soldiers do at this time? Were

    23 they standing around? Can you describe this scene?

    24 A. They were inside in the hangar with weapons

    25 making sure that no one tried to escape. Some of them

  95. 1 were outside in front of the hangar. I am referring to

    2 all of them, including the JNA soldiers and the

    3 Chetniks.

    4 Q. When you were taken out, again, of the

    5 hangar, did you again have an opportunity to talk to

    6 this JNA soldier, the young one?

    7 A. We got into a van, a combi, and we were able

    8 to talk. I did talk to him.

    9 Q. Did you ask him what was happening to those

    10 people inside the hangar?

    11 A. I asked him what would happen to them. He

    12 said, "Well, they will probably all be executed".

    13 Q. Was there a moment when you heard some sounds

    14 like machinery?

    15 A. I heard that before entering the hangar for

    16 the registration. When the beating subsided, when it

    17 became quite silent, I heard some sounds from maybe

    18 half a kilometre away. I thought at first that they may

    19 be tanks, though at that point in time there was no

    20 longer any need for tanks.

    21 Q. My last question to this part at Ovcara, your

    22 impression, again, also as a soldier of this scene at

    23 Ovcara farm; was it organised, was it quite calm,

    24 people were just doing their jobs, whatever they were

    25 assigned to, or was it just a chaotic situation? Can

  96. 1 you describe your impression?

    2 A. I shall tell you what my reflections are

    3 because everything was known; that we would go to such

    4 a such a place, we would get out in such a way, there

    5 would be this gauntlet. It was known exactly where our

    6 people would be put, that is their prisoners, within

    7 the hangar. There was probably an officer of theirs

    8 with a whistle and every few minutes, I do not know how

    9 often, he would whistle which was a sign for those to

    10 take over for another shift, to take over with the

    11 beating, because then one group would have a rest while

    12 the others took over. Then this registration of people,

    13 therefore, in my view, all of this was organised and it

    14 was known in advance what would be done with us and

    15 what their intentions were. That is my judgment.

    16 Q. This person with the whistle, did you see

    17 this person?

    18 A. I did see him, but I could not try to

    19 describe him because I really can no longer remember.

    20 Q. Only a few questions to what happened

    21 afterwards. You were taken away from Ovcara in a kind

    22 of vehicle. Is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Where were you taken to?

    25 A. They took us to Velepromet. We stayed there

  97. 1 for a couple of minutes. At Velepromet they would not

    2 take us in, as far as I can remember. Allegedly there

    3 was not any room for us.

    4 Q. Where were you transferred to after

    5 Velepromet?

    6 A. After Velepromet we were taken to a textile

    7 factory, Modateks.

    8 Q. How far away is that from Velepromet?

    9 A. Not far. We got there very soon. Maybe

    10 a kilometre, but I think it is even less. I do not know

    11 the town well, so I cannot really tell.

    12 Q. Did you spend the night in Modateks?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Was there a moment when the paramilitary

    15 soldiers or Chetniks, or whatever you call them,

    16 arrived?

    17 A. Yes. They arrived in the evening, and then

    18 they came in the morning as well, the next day, to

    19 Modateks.

    20 Q. Did they tell you anything?

    21 A. In the evening they shouted, "what are men

    22 doing here", who had brought them, that they would kill

    23 us as well as those who had brought us, because at

    24 Modateks there were elderly people, women and children,

    25 and they were supposed to be transferred to Croatia.

  98. 1 Q. After you had spent the night at Modateks,

    2 were you transferred to another location the next day?

    3 A. In the morning, the next day we were

    4 transferred to Velepromet.

    5 Q. How long did you stay in Velepromet?

    6 A. I stayed that day until about midnight.

    7 Q. And the next day?

    8 A. The next day in the morning on 22nd December

    9 we were driven to Sremska Mitrovica but before that we

    10 were transported to the barracks.

    11 Q. The same barracks you have been a couple of

    12 days ago, the JNA barracks. Is that correct?

    13 A. Yes, yes.

    14 Q. Do you recall, were there again beatings at

    15 those JNA barracks?

    16 A. I personally was not beaten at all. What

    17 I could -- as far as I could see, no one was beaten, as

    18 far as I could see. In fact, they gave us water, they

    19 gave us some canned food to eat. That was it.

    20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, your

    21 Honours.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    23 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    24 Q. Your Honours, in your previous statement,

    25 witness, you did not remember exactly all the persons

  99. 1 you were with, those seven people. You now mention the

    2 names. When did you learn of the names of those people?

    3 A. I remembered Perkovic and Berghofer. Maybe

    4 I did not mention this in the statement. Perkovic? Did

    5 I mention Perkovic? Am I talking too quickly?

    6 Q. Yes. We are speaking the same language, you

    7 see.

    8 In your statement, among the six of us I only

    9 remember the surname Berghofer or Berkhofer. You now

    10 said that there were seven and you remembered the other

    11 names?

    12 A. I learned later who they were.

    13 Q. Very well. At the moment you were taken, the

    14 seven of you, in front of the hangar. Was it daytime

    15 when you were taken out of the hangar outside, where

    16 you stood for an hour and a half? So before the

    17 registration.

    18 A. Yes. It was daylight. Only we did not all

    19 seven come out at the same time. We came out gradually,

    20 one by one. We did not all six or seven of us go out

    21 simultaneously.

    22 Q. I understand, but when the last of you came

    23 out, was it still daylight?

    24 A. I think it was, yes. I think.

    25 Q. After you came out of the hangar was any one

  100. 1 of you beaten?

    2 A. As far as I can recall, no.

    3 Q. My question is in the hangar, not in front of

    4 the hangar.

    5 A. Just a moment, please. Could you repeat the

    6 question, please?

    7 Q. After all seven of you were outside it was

    8 daylight, in front of the hangar. From that moment

    9 until you left in the combi-van when dark fell, was

    10 anyone beaten in the hangar or outside out, of you

    11 seven?

    12 A. I think not, but it need not be the proper

    13 answer. I know that I personally was not beaten by

    14 anyone.

    15 Q. You are a soldier, so it is easier for me to

    16 ask you. What colour were the uniforms you saw in the

    17 hangar? What types of uniforms?

    18 A. I saw the uniform, the olive green uniform of

    19 the JNA, I saw camouflage uniforms, and I saw Chetniks

    20 who were dressed in various ways. They had parts of

    21 uniforms, some of them were in civilian clothes, some

    22 of them are camouflage sweaters, and they had their

    23 typical hats, the fur hats that they wore.

    24 Q. The JNA officers, and generally the officers.

    25 What colour uniforms were they wearing?

  101. 1 A. This captain had a camouflage uniform, for

    2 instance, and these others, the one who was a colonel,

    3 Ivanovic or Ivankovic, he had an olive green uniform

    4 and there were a couple of other officers with him who

    5 also had the same uniform.

    6 Q. You said earlier on in your statement that

    7 you had the impression that this Ivanovic or Ivankovic,

    8 some others mention him as, "Jovankovic", that he was

    9 the commander-in-chief at that moment. Can I read it

    10 from your statement if you do not remember?

    11 A. That was my impression. I can explain why

    12 I had that impression.

    13 Q. No, I am just checking whether you still

    14 abide by what you said in your statement.

    15 Any defenders like yourself, defenders of

    16 Vukovar, did they surrender and remain in uniform?

    17 A. I think not. I did not see any one of them.

    18 Maybe there were some but I never saw them.

    19 Q. What colour was your uniform? Similar to the

    20 JNA? No?

    21 A. No, I am sorry. Let me explain. We had

    22 camouflage uniforms and it was a different uniform from

    23 the JNA camouflage uniforms.


    25 Q. But in camouflage colours, right?

  102. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Concerning the weapons that the defence units

    3 had in Vukovar, did they have any mortars?

    4 A. In the areas where I was, that is the only

    5 one that I can speak of, no, there were not.

    6 Q. In the area where you were, were you at any

    7 time in the front-line from where you could see the road

    8 and Vukovar, Negoslavci?

    9 A. I do not know. I think I probably did not.

    10 Q. Could you explain to me why did you feel the

    11 need to take off the uniform even though you were part

    12 of the regular units?

    13 A. Very simple. I thought that this was just --

    14 I wanted to survive, so I thought that I would be

    15 killed -- it was more likely that I would be killed if

    16 I had stayed on.

    17 Q. What about the Zengers? Would you not have

    18 been better protected as a soldier?

    19 A. That may be your opinion.

    20 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor you said that it

    21 was Chetniks and the paramilitary formations and

    22 perhaps they were not just Chetniks. They went with you

    23 from the hospital to the barracks, to the Ovcara?

    24 A. I did not say that all of them went there.

    25 Q. That is not what I said either.

  103. 1 A. I called them Chetniks because they called

    2 themselves that.

    3 Q. They are all the same in my opinion too. But

    4 my question was, did that mean that they escorted the

    5 JNA throughout this travel, some of them?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. When you answered the -- you know, I am

    8 trying to slow down.

    9 When you said that this was all prepared,

    10 that they were acting together, you think that they

    11 were part of the preparation together with the JNA?

    12 A. I do not think that they were preparing it

    13 together but I think that they just wanted part of the

    14 action.

    15 Q. So, your impression was that they were

    16 following, escorting the JNA so that they would have

    17 their piece of the action?

    18 A. Yes, that was my impression.

    19 Q. Since you took part in a battle, did the JNA

    20 know the configuration of terrain around Vukovar?

    21 A. Since they took it, I guess they knew it well

    22 enough.

    23 Q. Do not take it wrong, I am just trying to ask

    24 you, because you are competent for that, you are

    25 a soldier.

  104. 1 A. Very well. As a soldier I can give you

    2 certain answers and not some others, but in principle

    3 I did not understand what your question was, so could

    4 you please repeat it?

    5 Q. Well, just what you asked them, if an army is

    6 about to take a town, do they know the terrain? That

    7 was the military question.

    8 A. Yes, I understand that, and the answer is

    9 yes.

    10 Q. This Basinger, who is he?

    11 A. He was a member of our unit who changed his

    12 name into Harlan Von Basinger.

    13 Q. Do you know what his name was before the war?

    14 You do not have to answer that.

    15 A. No, I would rather not.

    16 Q. Did you perhaps see a Serb with you, and

    17 a gentleman that looked like a professor?

    18 A. He may have been, I do not remember.

    19 Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.

    20 A. Thank you too.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Any re-examination from the

    22 Prosecutor?

    23 MR. WAESPI: No.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: I have a couple of questions.

    25 One point. You said that you joined the Croatian army

  105. 1 on 10th August 1991. Is that correct?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: You said you signed

    4 a contract for three years.

    5 Now, I wonder whether you may remember when

    6 you first engaged in some sort of fighting against the

    7 adversary after joining the Croatian army, fighting or

    8 military encounters with enemy soldiers, enemy

    9 combatants?

    10 A. In September of 1991. 10th September,

    11 8th September, somewhere around there.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: And do you remember when the

    13 adversary or enemy combatants consisted of JNA members

    14 or so-called what you called Chetniks, paramilitary

    15 groups, or both, or were they together, fighting

    16 together against your unit?

    17 A. At that time I did not see them. They

    18 attacked us. They shelled us and then withdrew from

    19 this position. That was the way we engaged for the

    20 first time. I could not say whether it was Chetniks or

    21 the JNA. It was the enemy who attacked us. So maybe it

    22 is not important, even, right now.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: But was there any time when

    24 you had any fighting against paramilitary groups only?

    25 I wonder whether you had any opportunity to -- any

  106. 1 occasion to fight against only these groups, or were

    2 you unable to make any distinction between the various

    3 people making up the enemy combatants?

    4 A. My first real war, or fighting was in

    5 Vukovar. All the rest to me was not war. We were

    6 shelled at one point and we withdrew and I had no

    7 contact with them until Vukovar.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I have another

    9 question. You said that you entered the hospital on

    10 17th or 18th November and you -- the hospital in

    11 Vukovar -- because you had decided to surrender.

    12 I wonder why you went to the hospital. Normally for

    13 a member of a military unit wishing to surrender the

    14 normal way out would be to simply to surrender to the

    15 enemy combatant, so for what particular reason did you

    16 go to the hospital?

    17 A. Because of my entire unit which came with me

    18 from Zagreb. I was the only one left who was not

    19 wounded. When I went to visit my fellow combatants in

    20 the hospital, I was considering whether to flee the

    21 city, try to break through, or not. That was chaotic

    22 times and many of the commanding officers were not to

    23 be found, so the defence was not organised any longer.

    24 There were some small groups that were wandering around

    25 town in those last days, so my assessment was that

  107. 1 I would be the safest at a hospital, together with my

    2 fellow comrades and that I would share the fate with

    3 them, so that was my assessment.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. No further

    5 questions. I wonder whether there is any objection to

    6 the witness being released. Yes, Mr. Waespi?

    7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I have one last

    8 question if you will allow me.


    10 MR. WAESPI: Was there any reason you were

    11 reluctant to surrender directly to the enemy troops?

    12 You said it was safer in the hospital. Can you...

    13 A. It was a simple reason. I was afraid to just

    14 simply walk out of a house into the street. I was

    15 afraid of that kind of surrender. If I were in a larger

    16 crowd, in a group of people, I felt safer that way.

    17 That was the reason. Is that clear enough?

    18 Q. Thank you. Yes. No further questions.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So no objection?

    20 MR. WAESPI: Not from the Prosecution.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you so much for coming

    22 to testify. You may be released.

    23 A. Thank you too, your Honours.

    24 (The witness withdrew)

    25 MR. NIEMANN: The next witness is Dragutin

  108. 1 Berghofer, if your Honours please. He does not request

    2 any protective measures.

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Berghofer, would you

    5 please make the solemn declaration?

    6 A. Yes.


    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    9 A. Thank you.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    11 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    12 Q. Would you please state your full name?

    13 A. Dragutin Berghofer.

    14 Q. And what is your date of birth?

    15 A. 29th October 1940.

    16 Q. And where were you born?

    17 A. In Osijek.

    18 Q. And where did you live for the most part of

    19 your life?

    20 A. In Vukovar, as of 1946.

    21 Q. And what was your occupation?

    22 A. Since the age of 18 I was an upholsterer, an

    23 assistant, apprentice to an upholsterer and that is

    24 what I did all the time, decoration, interior

    25 decorating.

  109. 1 Q. Did you do that in the city of Vukovar and

    2 the surroundings?

    3 A. Yes, yes, all the time.

    4 Q. And did you have a business in Vukovar?

    5 A. I did, for the last fifteen years. Now it is

    6 sixteen. To be precise, as of 1979.

    7 Q. Mr. Berghofer, do you recall being visited by

    8 Mr. Kevin Curtis from the Office of the Prosecutor of

    9 the International Tribunal on 16th and 17th June 1995

    10 when you were interviewed by him?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you remember that the interview being

    13 conducted actually in the English language and taken

    14 down in the English language, but it being interpreted

    15 to you as it progressed?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Do you remember at the end of the interview

    18 the document, the statement being read back to you and

    19 did you affix your signature to each page of the

    20 document?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at what I now

    23 show you, please? If you could just look at the top

    24 copy of the documents that I am now giving you and

    25 perhaps they could be allocated the next exhibit number

  110. 1 in order, if your Honours please.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: It is number 49.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: And there is a translation of

    4 that document, if that could -- into the Croatian

    5 language and if that could be allocated a number, too.


    7 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, looking at the

    8 document that is now in front of you, do you see

    9 affixed to the bottom of each page of that document

    10 your signature?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that statement.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection? Thank you.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, in addition to the

    15 statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor

    16 in relation to the events in Vukovar and Ovcara, did

    17 you also give a statement to officers of the Croatian

    18 Ministry of the Interior, the Vukovar police section of

    19 that?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And do you recall that you gave this

    22 statement on or about 1st June 1992?

    23 A. Yes, yes.

    24 Q. And was that statement given at a place in

    25 Zagreb?

  111. 1 A. Yes, it was.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at what I now

    3 show you, please? I am aware of the fact that,

    4 I apprehend that Mr. Fila is going to object, but I will

    5 certainly stop in time for him to argue it at the

    6 appropriate moment, your Honours.

    7 Now, in respect of this document that you now

    8 have, have you had an opportunity to read through the

    9 Croatian version of the document previous to coming

    10 into court; this document is not signed by you, is it?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. It does have a signature appearing at the end

    13 of the statement. Do you know whose signature that

    14 relates to? You can look at the document.

    15 A. I think it was a policeman's signature.

    16 I think he was a uniformed policeman.

    17 Q. And the circumstances of you giving this

    18 interview, can you just explain them briefly to the

    19 court as to how this document that came into existence,

    20 so far as you know?

    21 A. When I was released from Sremska Mitrovica on

    22 27th March 1992, we arrived in Zagreb, and immediately

    23 they took down our personal information, who we were,

    24 where we were, what did we experience, and this is how

    25 the whole story started. Then we were put up at one

  112. 1 place as refugees and then they sent this policeman and

    2 I gave a statement.

    3 Q. And from reading through this statement are

    4 you satisfied that it is the statement that you gave to

    5 this police officer in Zagreb on that day?

    6 A. Some things are correct, but some things are

    7 a little bit... I do not know. Either he was a bit

    8 confused or I was a little bit confused.

    9 Q. And perhaps, if you can -- I think you know

    10 what that relates to and if you can just tell us in

    11 general terms, what parts of it you feel may be

    12 slightly inaccurate.

    13 A. I am most confused about the timetable at

    14 Ovcara. Can I look at this? Yes, well, here, right

    15 here. Your Honour, we were leaving Ovcara at around

    16 5 o'clock in the evening. It was already getting dark,

    17 but -- so the times indicated for Ovcara are not really

    18 correct.

    19 Q. That is the time that you left Ovcara?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Thank you. But otherwise than that, from your

    22 reading of the statement does it appear to be correct?

    23 A. Well, yes. Usually, whatever interpreter...

    24 maybe the interpreters were confused here and there

    25 a little bit, but for the most part this is it.

  113. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Now, at this stage I would seek

    2 to tender it, but I understand that Mr. Fila wishes to

    3 raise an objection.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Mr. Fila?

    5 MR. FILA: Before I raise the objection, just

    6 to refer to this time. What time, if it was not 5 pm,

    7 what time was it there?

    8 A. May I answer this, please?

    9 Q. Yes.

    10 A. The real time was 1700 hours, so 5 o'clock,

    11 5.15 in the afternoon because when we got into the

    12 van --

    13 MR. FILA: I am sorry, that is not what the

    14 question was. I think you said 5 pm for when you left,

    15 but what time did you put down there?

    16 A. The correct time was 1700 hours when we left.

    17 But what was written down is that it was 5 o'clock when

    18 we arrived at Ovcara.

    19 MR. FILA: Very well. Your Honours, this is

    20 the objection. This is not a statement of the accused.

    21 Sorry, not the accused. The witness statement. This is

    22 not a witness statement. If you look at the document,

    23 at the bottom right corner, in small letters, it is

    24 pursuant to Article 151, paragraph 2 of the Criminal

    25 Code of the Republic of Yugoslavia. This is what the

  114. 1 police officers take and it is never used in the court.

    2 For us it was what we used to call, "the pretrial

    3 proceedings". You have a copy of the law on criminal

    4 procedure there. This was in the case of the General

    5 Djukic, so a long time ago. You can double-check that.

    6 I do not see any need to provide this as evidence,

    7 a document that is not used in this kind of procedure

    8 in Yugoslavia and we have a live witness who is going

    9 to testify to what actually happened. Why would we

    10 learn about these things indirectly when we have

    11 a witness who can give a live testimony?

    12 At the same time, I would submit that I am

    13 not going to oppose if the Prosecution calls this

    14 policeman as a witness. That is fine by me.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask

    16 Mr. Niemann whether this document had been disclosed to

    17 the defence?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Not to the court, however.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, it is not an

    21 OTP statement.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. So you do not

    23 object to the -- you do object to this document being

    24 tendered into evidence.

    25 MR. FILA: Yes, because it is a second-hand

  115. 1 piece of evidence, and I do not understand what the

    2 purpose of it is, anyway.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: The objection is sustained.

    4 We cannot accept that document in evidence.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Well, I will have it marked for

    6 identification, if your Honours please. May it be

    7 marked for identification, and allocated the next

    8 number in order, thank you.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Mr. Bos, did you

    10 comply with the request?

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, that will be done.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, I wish to take you

    14 now to the events in Vukovar in 1991 and in particular,

    15 around 24th August 1991. Can you recall back then at

    16 that time and date?

    17 A. Yes, I can.

    18 Q. What happened?

    19 A. I would just like to request to go back to

    20 about 24 days before 24th August because I was the

    21 owner of two businesses. I would -- I was at that time

    22 still working, though the shells, a few shells were

    23 falling in the town. We, the locals in Vukovar believed

    24 that nothing would happen. We did not even consider

    25 that such catastrophe would take place. So two or three

  116. 1 days I was loading coal into my cellar and my house is

    2 about 20 metres away from the JNA barracks and there

    3 was a 90 millimetre barrelled gun pointed and

    4 anti-aircraft machine-gun pointed while I was unloading

    5 this, shovelling this coal. This was just a few days

    6 before this 24th, and I had no clue as to what would

    7 happen to me on the night of 24th and this is right

    8 after midnight, five minutes after midnight, so I came

    9 into my bedroom, I turned on the lights, just to see

    10 whether I had made the bed, and I turned it off

    11 immediately, and a tank was pointing at me, just about

    12 where you are, at that distance, and as I lay in bed

    13 they opened fire and you can -- I am ashamed to say how

    14 I felt. It was a terrible thunder and a big noise. I do

    15 not know how to say this, but it was -- I was lucky.

    16 There was a little retaining wall there. Actually the

    17 wall below the window, and so I was not hit. So,

    18 I crawled out of my bed and I crawled into another room

    19 and I stayed in the -- in there until the morning of

    20 25th when I heard some voices and then I looked around.

    21 I see my neighbour, Mile Latinovic and he was

    22 talking to a soldier who was on a guard duty, on this

    23 tank. I said, "Mile, who praised me so well that they

    24 did this to my house?". Then he said, "Drago, look.

    25 They did that to me too", and I looked, and his house

  117. 1 was intact.

    2 They targeted several houses between me and

    3 my neighbour Slavko Posonjak, so they targeted his

    4 house, then they spared one and then two other houses

    5 they did it to, and then Ms. Segavac's, and then they

    6 took turns between mine, Slavko Posonjak and

    7 Ms. Segavac and they took turns for a couple of hours

    8 they kept shooting at the house, these houses. And

    9 a little later after around 4 o'clock the fire subsided

    10 a little bit, and in the morning, when I heard this

    11 voice, it was as if nothing had happened. I took

    12 a little motorcycle, I left my elderly mother in the

    13 backyard and I set off to where my shop was.

    14 When I speak of my businesses I had

    15 five properties. I had a big house next to the barracks

    16 about 110 square metres. The rest did not have upper

    17 floors, but they had bathrooms and they had amenities.

    18 So, I had these two shops. That was not strictly in the

    19 centre of town, and -- but these houses were built

    20 well, and they had basements that were made there

    21 during Austro-Hungarian times, if not the Turkish

    22 times so I decided to stay there.

    23 We all had believed that nothing like this

    24 could happen and then, starting on -- with that 24th,

    25 these shells kept coming from the direction of

  118. 1 Negoslavci, Backa Palanka, all directions, so that

    2 I took shelter in my basement which, during the war,

    3 also had 40 women and children staying there.

    4 Q. Now, just stopping you for a moment, did you

    5 have any members of the family, your family with you in

    6 the basement?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Who did you have?

    9 A. Later on my mother joined me because my house

    10 was blown up with a mortar, so I no longer had a roof,

    11 then she came, then my daughter, my wife, as well,

    12 though we were not married but we were living together,

    13 and my other daughter, with two grandsons.

    14 Q. And what were your daughters names?

    15 A. Vesna. Vesna and Jasna.

    16 Q. And what happened to Vesna?

    17 A. They took Vesna by the so-called JNA and

    18 I never saw her again.

    19 Q. Who took her?

    20 A. I have learned now who took her away and if

    21 I have to tell I will, but she was taken away by

    22 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army and some people

    23 who we called Chetniks.

    24 Q. And have you ever seen her since?

    25 A. No. No.

  119. 1 Q. And --

    2 A. I have had contact with a man who took her

    3 away but he says that he had to do it. He is in

    4 Vukovar.

    5 Q. And I think you said your wife was with you

    6 in the shelter as well.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And did anything happen to her during the

    9 war?

    10 A. She is -- she was the only victim among the

    11 40 women who were in this basement of mine. She

    12 was killed on 6th November 1991.

    13 Q. How was she killed?

    14 A. Your Honour, shall we say that the Danube is

    15 behind my back and the shell fell in front of my shop.

    16 It fragmented, and the shrapnel flew in through the

    17 window and hit the wall of the shop which is the wall

    18 linked to the basement, and at that very moment she was

    19 smoking in the doorway, so as not to bother the

    20 children and the elderly people. She was smoking there,

    21 and she was hit here in the neck.

    22 Q. Now, were any of the people with you in the

    23 shelter during this period of time armed?

    24 A. As far as I know, no, but I cannot claim that

    25 out of all of us that were around there, 2,000, 1,500,

  120. 1 one could not count and perhaps some of them were armed

    2 and some of them may have come to have lunch with us.

    3 I personally have never fired a shot.

    4 Q. And were women and children in the shelters

    5 as well as men?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And how were the people fed during the period

    8 of the siege?

    9 A. You see, Vukovar was quite a well-off town,

    10 and as I have already said we never thought that such

    11 a disaster would occur. Well, it was possible to pass

    12 through Marice and Bogdanovci, that was the only open

    13 way out of Vukovar, because on all the other sides were

    14 the locals and the JNA army, so we received aid from

    15 Jakovo which was brought in by truck, then there were

    16 some stores that had been abandoned. Meat was not

    17 a problem, but there was no electricity so there was no

    18 point in slaughtering an animal when you cannot eat it

    19 immediately and by next day it is no longer good. It

    20 goes bad. So, we only had one big cauldron, and we were

    21 eating. There were Serbs and Hungarians and Skipotars

    22 with us, representatives of various ethnic groups. We

    23 never asked who was what; when the shells fell we were

    24 altogether in the basement.

    25 Q. And in addition to having food for yourself,

  121. 1 did you also have occasion to supply food to other

    2 places?

    3 A. Yes. I did. Potato was very much in demand.

    4 There was a monastery there and a church. There was not

    5 a single potato. Then there was no sugar. Everything

    6 stopped working but still, as I said, there were

    7 abandoned grocery shops, so we would carry food to the

    8 hospital and to the monastery and in the centre, to the

    9 old people's homes where some old women were very cold

    10 because they had no heating, so roughly 3,000 people

    11 would go from this building, the so-called, "Borovka",

    12 to -- they would cover 50 metres to get to my basement

    13 and my shop.

    14 Q. Did there come a time during the siege of

    15 Vukovar when you and some others attempted to escape?

    16 A. Well, we kept thinking about fleeing, but

    17 whenever we made such a decision we would hear over the

    18 transistor radio that a truce had been signed, that

    19 there would not be no fire any more, and as soon as

    20 dark fell about 7 pm, the shells started falling again

    21 on that poor city of Vukovar. And since I had a certain

    22 amount of money, some capital, you know how things are.

    23 I had to save it for as long as I could save it up.

    24 Afterwards, everything was -- all our houses were

    25 without roofs, everything was destroyed.

  122. 1 One of my houses burned for three days. At

    2 first, some fire brigades tried to extinguish the fire

    3 but you know what happened to them? They never did it

    4 again because high up in some buildings there were

    5 snipers of the so-called JNA and they would target them

    6 very easily. So that there were about 15 fire brigade

    7 men who were killed in Vukovar. Some of them were even

    8 killed in hospital when the cistern truck was hit when

    9 it was bringing water to the hospital.

    10 Q. I asked you, did you recall a time when you

    11 tried to actually leave Vukovar, to try and force your

    12 way out.

    13 A. Yes, I did. I remember this was somewhere

    14 around the end of September. Food, we were running

    15 short of food for the children. I had a five month old

    16 grandson in a carrier. I would never have found him.

    17 Q. Did you succeed in escaping?

    18 A. I did not manage to escape. Afterwards, when

    19 I wanted to escape, it was already too late.

    20 Q. Now, then later did you then go to the

    21 hospital in Vukovar in order to leave the city?

    22 A. Yes, I did.

    23 Q. And when was that? Can you remember?

    24 A. This was on 17th November 1991. I think that

    25 all the remaining people from Vukovar congregated

  123. 1 towards the municipality building which is 300 metres

    2 from the hospital and someone decided, they called it

    3 a breakthrough, but there is no breakthrough with the

    4 two or three automatic rifles and 150 men, so I tried

    5 to go with them but a shell fell. Two men were killed

    6 on the spot. I panicked, and I went back to the

    7 hospital. Around 11.30 at night on 17th November it was

    8 night-time, and there was a drizzle.

    9 Q. When you got to the hospital, were there

    10 other people there as well as yourself?

    11 A. There was no room for a fly in the hospital.

    12 There were so many people cramming those corridors, not

    13 counting the wounded. There were up to three to a bed.

    14 It was packed full. I cannot really judge, but there

    15 was not room for anyone else.

    16 Q. Where did you stay when you went to the

    17 hospital?

    18 A. I was in the new hospital building because

    19 upstairs it was totally shelled, so I was not on the

    20 floor, on the top floor, but on the ground floor. That

    21 night I never slept at all. I was hungry in the

    22 morning. The hospital had no food to give any more, so

    23 I had some, "Babyveta", and, "Laktovit", in the

    24 infants' department because though it was destroyed,

    25 there was some of this powder milk and that is how

  124. 1 I spent the night between 17th and 18th and the

    2 19th and the 20th.

    3 Q. And did you stay in any particular room,

    4 anyone's room in the hospital?

    5 A. Yes, I did. From 18th until 19th I found

    6 a little children's bed and I spent the night in it,

    7 crouching in it until the 19th in the morning, and then

    8 around 11 o'clock in the morning Dr. Ivankovic saw me

    9 and asked me what I was doing there. I said, "where

    10 everyone else is, I am", so he said, "come over here to

    11 my office and sit with me".

    12 Q. And did anything happen when you were sitting

    13 in Dr. Ivankovic's office?

    14 A. I was not alone with him. Perkovic was there

    15 too, Tomislav. I think it was Tomislav, something like

    16 that. Perkovic, anyway. Then there were some nurses,

    17 then two other doctors, there were about eight or ten

    18 of us in that room.

    19 Q. Now, what was the next thing that happened?

    20 A. I think it was around the 19th in the

    21 afternoon when I was already with the doctor and these

    22 other nurses and Tihomir Perkovic, the doctor's son

    23 came. His name is Goran. He kissed him, but also some

    24 reservists of the JNA, local people who were working in

    25 the hospital. They were exchanging greetings, kissing

  125. 1 some people, so I saw, I just cannot recall this moment

    2 the surname, but I will remember later on, during my

    3 testimony, and they immediately started questioning

    4 some of the wounded.

    5 Q. Now, who are, "they"? Who was questioning

    6 some of the wounded?

    7 A. He was, he was the porter in the hospital.

    8 His name was Bogdan, Kuzmic Bogdan.

    9 Q. And was he dressed in a uniform of any sort?

    10 A. He was a reserve. He belonged to the... how

    11 shall I put it... paramilitary of the JNA.

    12 Q. And did Dr. Ivankovic's son have

    13 a conversation with his father when he was there?

    14 A. Yes, he did.

    15 Q. What did he say to his father?

    16 A. Once they had hugged each other he extended

    17 his hand to me as well and to everyone else, and then

    18 he said, "why did you not leave when I told you? We

    19 wanted to set Vukovar on fire with napalm bombs and

    20 where is the granny", his father said, "a bomb fell on

    21 the hospital and she got killed", referring to the

    22 mother-in-law of Ivankovic and the young boy's

    23 grandmother and he said, "I am sorry that she has not

    24 lived to see me wearing this hat with a cockade",

    25 though he was actually wearing a helmet with a five

  126. 1 cornered star.

    2 Q. When you say, "she", is that a translation

    3 error or did you mean "he"?

    4 A. He was talking and referring to his

    5 grandmother who got killed. I do not quite understand

    6 what you are asking me.

    7 Q. I think that clears it up. What did the

    8 father, Dr. Ivankovic then say to his son?

    9 A. "Keep quiet Goran, keep quiet and go out. Go.

    10 Go", because Dr. Ivankovic stayed in the hospital until

    11 the bitter end doing his work.

    12 Q. Had you seen any reservists, paramilitaries

    13 or JNA soldiers at the hospital prior to this time?

    14 A. No, maybe half an hour before that, shall we

    15 say it was 3.30 in the afternoon. That was the first

    16 time that the reservists, JNA reservists appeared.

    17 Q. And I think you said that -- earlier in your

    18 evidence -- that they then started to ask people

    19 questions. Is that correct?

    20 A. Yes. It was roughly at the same time when

    21 this young boy came to see his father, then Bogdan

    22 Kuzmic went off and this was happening within a time

    23 span of 10 or 15 minutes. It all happened quickly.

    24 Stanko Duvnjak was questioned and he was sitting in the

    25 corridor. I remember Stanko saying, "what could I do?",

  127. 1 and they questioned some others, but believe me, I know

    2 the person, but if I cannot remember his name and

    3 surname it is of no good, is it.

    4 If you are at all interested, by then it was

    5 already dark, the 19th, it was evening. And we spent

    6 that whole night sitting in that room and then I may

    7 again be wrong by about half an hour, well, you know

    8 when one is afraid and one does not take notes, but

    9 roughly, it was about 1.15 or 1.30. Pistol shots were

    10 heard. Six. Six of these shots. They were quite far

    11 away, but were clearly audible. And then there was

    12 a pause of about 40 minutes and then again we heard

    13 shots, but from the same pistol. So, within a span of

    14 two hours that pistol fired 18 shots. It all ended

    15 about quarter past three in the morning.

    16 Q. I would just like to take you back just

    17 a little bit through what you were saying about the

    18 people being questioned. Do you know why they were

    19 being questioned? The purpose for this questioning by

    20 these reservists? JNA reservists?

    21 A. Well, you see, Stanko Duvnjak was a policeman

    22 in Yugoslavia, and Bogdan Kuzmic was a porter in the

    23 hospital. Now, why they were being questioned -- I just

    24 heard him saying, "what could I do?". That is all

    25 I know about that, about Stanko Duvnjak and I did not

  128. 1 see him. He is not around any more.

    2 Q. Now, what happened the next morning, that is

    3 20th November 1991?

    4 A. In the course of that night when I heard

    5 those pistol shots, I could not really tell you exactly

    6 how many trucks and buses were driven out of the

    7 hospital with people on board, but all night one could

    8 hear these trucks and buses. You could hear them

    9 roaring off, and later I learned about this at

    10 Velepromet which is about 4 or 5 kilometres from the

    11 hospital, 4 kilometres in the direction of Negoslavci,

    12 outside of town.

    13 Then morning came, and about 7 am a tall,

    14 moustached officer walked in with a flak jacket,

    15 Tito-ist cap, a five-cornered star. I cannot remember

    16 the name, because I left that army ages ago, so I could

    17 no longer recognise the ranks, and he was shouting out

    18 aloud, "doctor, what are you waiting for? It is a state

    19 of war! The lightly wounded and the civilians should go

    20 to the left and the left, for us, the people of

    21 Vukovar, was known as the Sapudl. On one side was the

    22 Ivalolarejpa Street and on the other, the Sapudl.

    23 Q. Perhaps we could stop there. Would that be

    24 a convenient moment?

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. We will reconvene in

  129. 1 twenty minutes.

    2 (4.00 pm)

    3 (A short break).

    4 (4.20 pm)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, you may proceed.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Berghofer, just before the

    7 afternoon break, you were speaking of how this officer

    8 came into the room, whose rank you could not recognise,

    9 but started to speak to Dr. Ivankovic about getting

    10 a move on with sorting out the people in the hospital.

    11 And I think you said that he issued certain

    12 instructions as to where people were to go. Did you

    13 know the name of this officer or did you subsequently

    14 come to know the name of this officer?

    15 A. I think I am not going to exaggerate, but

    16 a year and a half later I still did not know what his

    17 name was because I spent about four and a half months

    18 in prison and then, you know, I eventually came back

    19 and I was a refugee. I was in some make-shift shelter,

    20 I did not have a television. So it took me a year and a

    21 half before I found out that it was Major Sljivancanin

    22 because at that time in the hospital, he did not have

    23 any rank. He only wore this Tito-type hat. He was tall,

    24 he had a moustache, he wore a flak jacket, and I only

    25 learned later from television what his name was.

  130. 1 Q. And did you, in fact, recognise him on

    2 television?

    3 A. Yes. He was very characteristic type of

    4 person. You could not make a mistake about him.

    5 Q. And what did you find out his name to be?

    6 A. Major Veselin Sljivancanin.

    7 Q. Now what happened then, after he had given

    8 this order that people were to be sorted in this way?

    9 This was on 20th November 1991 in the morning.

    10 A. Yes, yes. Around 8 o'clock. It may have been

    11 later than 8 o'clock. Well, we lined up the way he

    12 ordered. There was also a reservist there, about 45

    13 years, old, rather stocky. I do not think that I could

    14 recognise him any more and I do not know his name.

    15 There were also some assistants there, somebody. They

    16 took all metal objects from us. They did not touch our

    17 wallets or jewelry or money, but only some things that

    18 were not supposed to be there, like small knives or

    19 something.

    20 Q. What about watches? Did they leave you with

    21 your watch?

    22 A. Yes. Yes. No, they did not touch any -- no

    23 personal valuables were touched.

    24 Q. Now, about how many people were lined up in

    25 this way?

  131. 1 A. It is hard for me to give you a figure, but

    2 later on those six buses were pretty full. You know,

    3 they had been ready in the street, already sitting

    4 there.

    5 Q. The people that were put into the buses by

    6 the reservists and the JNA, were they men, women and

    7 children or were they hospital staff or can you explain

    8 who they were?

    9 A. Those who were going into the buses or those

    10 who had ordered people to go?

    11 Q. The people that were put into the buses from

    12 the hospital.

    13 A. Right. Those -- of those some had their arms

    14 bandaged, some were wearing slippers, and as the man

    15 himself put it, the lightly wounded and civilians, and

    16 some hospital staff. They had like badges, and they did

    17 not -- they were not told to go into the buses, but

    18 some remained, even though they had those badges. When

    19 we climbed onto the buses we were taken in the

    20 direction of the barracks.

    21 Q. Now, what bus did you get on to? Can you

    22 remember?

    23 A. As far as I can recall, I was in the fourth

    24 bus.

    25 Q. Now, was there anyone on that bus that you

  132. 1 could remember that was not a JNA officer, or soldier,

    2 but was there anyone on the bus such as yourself that

    3 had come from the hospital that you can remember?

    4 A. Yes. I remember some very clearly. For

    5 instance, Emil Cakalic was there. He was a sanitary

    6 inspector of the Vukovar municipality, even during the

    7 war he was visiting civilians. Also, assistant, then my

    8 neighbour, Drago Gavoric who would carry water to the

    9 hospital and then a number of young men, older people.

    10 There were a number of people that I knew.

    11 Q. Now, apart from the people that were taken

    12 out of the hospital, was there any JNA soldiers or

    13 reservists on the bus there with you?

    14 A. Yes. In my bus, there were two regular JNA

    15 soldiers, and I think it was similar in the other buses

    16 too, that were travelling together with us.

    17 Q. Now, where did they take you on the bus when

    18 you left the hospital?

    19 A. I cannot tell you the exact minute, but about

    20 9 o'clock, 9.30, we arrived to the barracks, over there

    21 at the fairgrounds. That is where we ended up.

    22 Q. Now when you say, "the barracks", do you mean

    23 the JNA barracks?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And this was the JNA barracks in Vukovar?

  133. 1 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

    2 Q. And the same place which was near your home

    3 when you described earlier in your evidence.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And when you arrived at the JNA barracks what

    6 happened then? Can you tell us what happened?


    8 A. Different things happened, because I believe

    9 we were there for over four hours, standing. Then these

    10 good friends of ours and neighbours, the reservists

    11 with automatic weapons were going around the buses,

    12 threatening. For instance, a neighbour of mine who was

    13 in the school of my -- with my daughter, was slapping

    14 himself in the back, in his behind where he kept his

    15 knife, and making signs like he was going to slit my

    16 throat. Some were screaming with joy, as if you were

    17 watching a movie and some Indians capture a white man

    18 and then you do not know what they would do to him.

    19 Then some were lucky. Some were fortunate.

    20 Some people came to get some people out, and they even

    21 got on to the bus. I remember a mathematics professor

    22 named Licina. Then there was Hidek, who

    23 had a watchmaker, and another called Kolesar, and then

    24 I saw that from some other buses there were people

    25 being taken out, and I thought, "lucky them, they are

  134. 1 fortunate".

    2 However, up front there was a military bus

    3 where people were -- they were placing people on that

    4 bus and I saw that people were being beaten as this was

    5 done, and then I immediately revised my opinion and

    6 I thought well, they are not so lucky.

    7 Then some people were being taken aside to

    8 stay at the barracks, so a little while later, this

    9 bus started in the direction of Negoslavci. I did not

    10 know where they were taking them, but while they were

    11 putting them on this bus some of these young men, these

    12 reservists, had broken the anti- -- or the fire

    13 extinguishers and they were breaking down some tools

    14 like pickaxes and shovels and breaking off the handles

    15 with screams and such.

    16 Q. Okay. Well, just during the period of four

    17 hours that you said that you were at the JNA barracks,

    18 were you inside the bus? Did you stay inside the bus

    19 all that time or did you get out at any stage yourself?

    20 A. No. You could not leave at all. I spent the

    21 entire time on the bus.

    22 Q. Now, these were reservists who were making

    23 these threats and were carrying on outside of the bus.

    24 Did any of them enter the bus or attempt to enter the

    25 bus?

  135. 1 A. They threatened and they actually tried to

    2 get on to the bus, but as I recall, those three men

    3 quietly got off the bus. There was no violence, because

    4 there were these three soldiers at the door of the bus.

    5 Q. And when you say, "soldiers", do you mean JNA

    6 soldiers or reservists?

    7 A. JNA soldiers.

    8 Q. And did they protect the people on the bus

    9 from these others that were outside?

    10 A. Yes, they did.

    11 Q. Now, you then moved on and said in your

    12 evidence that the buses then moved off, headed towards

    13 Negoslavci. What happened then? Where did you go?

    14 A. First was the military one that set off and

    15 then followed by this other bus, one by one by one, and

    16 the other one, with screens and everything, so we set

    17 off in the direction of Negoslavci but we did not know

    18 where we were going.

    19 Instead of going to Negoslavci they turned to

    20 the left. I am a local from Vukovar and I spent 50

    21 years there. I was never at this Ovcara in Jakobovac.

    22 I was never in agriculture so I did not know where we

    23 were going. I did not know this place. And then we

    24 arrived at Ovcara. Some people on the bus said so, and

    25 so that is what I learned, that this place was.

  136. 1 Q. Now, when you first arrived at Ovcara, was

    2 your bus still the number 4 bus, fourth bus back in the

    3 row or had it changed positions after leaving the JNA

    4 barracks?

    5 A. As far as I can recall, the buses remained in

    6 their positions. I do not recall them changing

    7 positions.

    8 Q. Now, when they pulled up at Ovcara where did

    9 they pull up?

    10 A. They pulled up next to a building, a hall of

    11 sorts, and as these buses were unloading people, they

    12 would move off all in the same direction.

    13 Q. So the buses would line up one after the

    14 other, were they?

    15 A. Yes, yes, they were.

    16 Q. Now, did the people on the buses on all of

    17 the buses get out at once or did they get out at one

    18 bus at a time?

    19 A. One bus at a time. I remember that Goran

    20 Mogosa, my neighbour three doors away from me, his

    21 nickname was Kustra, he was the one that we had to

    22 report to first so that he would take everything from

    23 you. Bags, wallets, jewellery. He would strip you of

    24 everything. I am not sure that he was able to search

    25 everyone. When my turn came, he did not take much from

  137. 1 me. He took my watch and he took some German marks. But

    2 around him there were a lot of bags, suitcases,

    3 briefcases; personal documents, jackets, strewn

    4 clothes. He was standing next to a ditch. So there

    5 were -- it was about 3 square metres, this area, and

    6 this was all filled with -- piled with things.

    7 Q. Now, when people got off the buses, what

    8 happened to them apart from having to surrender their

    9 wallets and watches and things of that nature.

    10 A. Then you had to go about 5, 6 or 3 metres,

    11 depending on the person where people were coming from.

    12 He did not have the time to strip people of all these

    13 belongings and then you had to step into what I would

    14 call hell.

    15 They beat you from all sides, kicking, fists,

    16 hands, boots. I remember they got to Damjan Samardzic

    17 with these sticks and everything and they beat him up.

    18 He never moved again after that. And there was another

    19 one. I think it was his nephew, Gaso. In any event, two

    20 bodies remained there lying for over two hours.

    21 I personally, I received two blows. Once in the crotch

    22 and once in the stomach then once a fist in my jaw and

    23 then there was a man from Negoslavci. He said, "do you

    24 know him?", and I turned around and one hit me so hard

    25 with a stick, actually, you know, it is like a crutch

  138. 1 that one has or one uses when wounded, and he hit me so

    2 hard that I immediately started bleeding.

    3 Then I went, and then I -- fortunately I was

    4 not felled by this blow, so I went into the hangar.

    5 Q. Now, the people that were doing the beating

    6 outside of the hangar, did you recognise any of those

    7 people?

    8 A. In front of the hangar, as I said, there was

    9 this Goran Mogosa, called Kustro, who was taking these

    10 things and my neighbour, Stevan Zoric. He lived in

    11 Dalmatinska Street. He is a neighbour of mine from the

    12 house in -- near the barracks. I am not sure about his

    13 sons because they were younger, but later I learned

    14 that they were also at Ovcara, so I assumed that they

    15 were there too but I cannot guarantee.

    16 Then it was Milos Bulidza. He was a butcher

    17 from the hospital. He was also one of the most

    18 prominent there. And the others I do not know. I said

    19 there were about 12 or 13 of them.

    20 Q. And how were these people dressed? Did you

    21 see? Were you able to see?

    22 A. They were also wearing the olive

    23 green uniforms, the JNA reservists, like the JNA

    24 reservists were.

    25 Q. Now, during this beating did you at any stage

  139. 1 lose consciousness ?

    2 A. Fortunately for me, not. I did not.

    3 Q. Were you hit in the eyes at all?

    4 A. I was not hit in the eyes. The blow came

    5 across the shoulder and over the head on my right-hand

    6 side. Sort of behind my ear.

    7 Q. Was your vision otherwise -- in any way

    8 otherwise impaired as a result of being beaten?

    9 A. No. No. In fact, you start -- you become more

    10 alert in a way. You can see more than you normally see.

    11 In other words, I was not bothered in any way, but

    12 I was fortunate that they were too busy with Damjan

    13 Samardzic so that I fared rather well.

    14 Q. I think you said that you managed to make

    15 your way into the hangar. Is that correct?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct. I ran inside. I did not

    17 walk inside, I ran inside. When I came inside,

    18 I immediately saw many men, you know, I knew some of

    19 them, some of them were my friends. Some I made

    20 furniture for, they had arrived at Ovcara before us.

    21 That was Ante Podruzjo, Zeljko Begov, Stanko Posavec,

    22 the Kolak brothers. They were so beaten up, they were

    23 so swollen that Zeljko Begov, who was next to me,

    24 fainted several times, and we tried to revive him

    25 several times. These were the men who had arrived

  140. 1 before us in that military bus.

    2 Q. Did you recognise any of the JNA or reservist

    3 persons inside the hangar when you went inside?

    4 A. That at that moment everybody was still

    5 wearing the JNA uniforms and I already said whom I saw

    6 outside, but five or six minutes later some people were

    7 still coming inside. The president of the municipality,

    8 Slavko Dokmanovic, there was a young wounded man who

    9 was crouching facing the entrance and Slavko Dokmanovic

    10 hit him. He kicked him fully in the face and five or

    11 six minutes after that, another young man ran inside.

    12 He was about 18, 17, 19, I do not know how old.

    13 A friend of mine was looking for a son of

    14 his, Tomislav Panis. He looked like his father but I am

    15 not sure that I could say that that was him. Whoever

    16 knows about Sokar, he know what scissors are. He came

    17 in and, following Slavko Dokmanovic.

    18 Q. And did you, did Slavko Dokmanovic say

    19 anything to anyone when he came into the hangar?

    20 A. As far as I can recall and my memory still

    21 serves me, after me, Emil Cakalic showed up and his

    22 employee, he was the sanitary inspector --

    23 Q. When you say, "his employee", whose employee

    24 did you mean by that?

    25 A. At first I did not say -- well, I said Slavko

  141. 1 Dokmanovic was president of the assembly, so how should

    2 I put it, he was the major of the city. And Emil

    3 Cakalic worked for the municipality together with

    4 Slavko Dokmanovic.

    5 Q. Yes. And tell us; what happened?

    6 A. Since Cakalic too entered, then he sort of

    7 ironically said, "Oh, Mr. Inspector, you are here too".

    8 So that those who were inside, you know, the

    9 reservists, that is -- surrounded him and fell upon him

    10 and he again had gotten quite a bit -- he had received

    11 some beatings outside but now he received more.

    12 I forgot to say that first Cakalic got beaten

    13 and then he took this -- then he hit this young one

    14 with this scissor type of kick.

    15 Q. Now, who hit the young one with the

    16 scissor-type kick? Who did that?

    17 A. President of the municipality, Slavko

    18 Dokmanovic.

    19 Q. And who used the words, "Oh, Mr. Inspector,

    20 you are here too"? Who said that?

    21 A. Also Slavko Dokmanovic.

    22 Q. Okay. Now, how far away from Mr. Cakalic were

    23 you when Mr. Dokmanovic spoke to him? How far in

    24 distance?

    25 A. Approximately 4 metres.

  142. 1 Q. And were you able to hear the conversation

    2 clearly?

    3 A. As far as I could tell, that is what he said.

    4 He did not speak quietly. He also told him something

    5 later, but there was confusion around so I could not

    6 hear it all.

    7 Q. In all, how long in periods of time was

    8 Mr. Dokmanovic in the room, in the hangar there where

    9 you could see him yourself?

    10 A. I would just like to add that Sinisa

    11 Glavasevic was there too. He was a reporter from

    12 Vukovar for Zagreb. I could not see him. He was quite

    13 far away, but they fell upon him so much that I could

    14 not see him so I did not give any statement, but when

    15 they found him at Ovcara, now I am rewinding the tape,

    16 and I am saying that was him.

    17 In terms of time, timewise, Slavko Dokmanovic

    18 was there for about 20, 25 minutes.

    19 Q. During the time that Slavko Dokmanovic was

    20 there, did you have a good view of him? Were you able

    21 to see him clearly?

    22 A. Very clearly. Very clearly.

    23 Q. What was the lighting like in the hangar at

    24 that time when he came in, when Slavko Dokmanovic came

    25 in? What was the lighting like in the hangar?

  143. 1 A. Very good. Very good.

    2 Q. Were you able to see Slavko Dokmanovic in the

    3 full facial view of him or did you only see him on the

    4 side or did you see both?

    5 A. At that moment I saw him very clearly facing

    6 me because there were not that many people yet inside.

    7 I am not one of the shortest people, I am not one of

    8 the tallest people, but I saw him at a distance of

    9 about 4 or 5 metres.

    10 Q. Prior to that time, how long had you known

    11 Slavko Dokmanovic?

    12 A. I could not give you a precise answer. Now it

    13 has been six or seven years, but I have known him for

    14 over 20 years, because he used to play soccer. He

    15 played soccer, and he also went to soccer games and

    16 I knew him from sight. I know about 20,000 people in

    17 Vukovar. I do not know everybody's last name. I also

    18 saw him later at Pik because, you know, I also had

    19 carpet stamping business as well and there is some

    20 curtains I once put up there in Pik. So I knew him from

    21 sight.

    22 Q. What was Pik?

    23 A. It is an agricultural, industrial

    24 corporation. It is a very large company. I do not know

    25 how much land they had, how much livestock, hogs, pigs

  144. 1 they had, so it was a food industry company, so it was

    2 all part of this Pik.

    3 Q. And where was this located, this Pik?

    4 A. I will make it easier for you. If we are

    5 here in The Hague, let us say seven kilometres to the

    6 east, seven kilometres to the west, 10 kilometres to

    7 the south, there were villages of Negoslavci, so the --

    8 Ilok, Ilok was 35 kilometres away from Vukovar.

    9 Trpinja, from where Slavko Dokmanovic is, Bobota, so

    10 those are a large stretches of land. So from Vukovar

    11 you could go 35 kilometres in each direction and that

    12 would be all part of the Pik. Even some vineyards were

    13 there, and they belonged to the Pik.

    14 Q. Now, why was it that you saw Slavko

    15 Dokmanovic at the Pik?

    16 A. This was just by chance that I saw him. I was

    17 hanging up curtains or maybe washing carpets. He came

    18 by. As far as I know he worked there.

    19 Q. And apart from seeing him previously at the

    20 Pik, did you see him from time to time when he became

    21 mayor of the municipality of Vukovar?

    22 A. Not so frequently, but it would happen that

    23 I would go to the town hall to settle an account or

    24 something, so one would come across him. I cannot say

    25 that I saw him once in three weeks. Sometimes I would

  145. 1 not see him for six or seven months.

    2 Q. Now would you look around this courtroom and

    3 see if you can see Slavko Dokmanovic in the courtroom,

    4 and if you can, would you point to him, please?

    5 A. Yes, I have seen him. He is in the last row

    6 on the left.

    7 Q. Now, going back to the time when you saw

    8 Slavko Dokmanovic at the hangar in Ovcara, did you

    9 notice at all how he was dressed?

    10 A. He was the only one who was dressed in a blue

    11 pilot uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army.

    12 Q. And did he have a coat or anything above the

    13 uniform or was it just the plain uniform?

    14 A. He had some kind of a jacket but it was not

    15 buttoned up, like a wind jacket or something to protect

    16 him from the rain.

    17 Q. And what colour was that?

    18 A. Are you referring to this jacket, or his suit

    19 underneath?

    20 Q. No, the jacket.

    21 A. It was more like navy blue or close to black.

    22 But navy blue. A bit lighter. The suit was a bit

    23 lighter but that was also dark blue.


    25 Q. And the clothes that he had on, did you see

  146. 1 whether or not there was any insignia or military

    2 markings on these clothing?

    3 A. I did not see that.

    4 Q. Did you see whether or not Slavko Dokmanovic

    5 was armed?

    6 A. As far as I saw him, no. He was not armed. He

    7 did not have any weapons.

    8 Q. And now I think you have already touched in

    9 your evidence upon some of the things that you saw

    10 Slavko Dokmanovic do, but what was he doing for that

    11 period of 20 minutes that he was in the hangar? Can you

    12 tell us? You have already told us some of the things

    13 that he was doing.

    14 A. He was walking up and down rather nervously

    15 for as long as there was some room inside, and in those

    16 twenty minutes he hit those two men. He gave Cakalic

    17 a rather hard slap, and I cannot say for sure what he

    18 said about Sinisa Glavasevic, who was to the right when

    19 you go into the hangar. I was quite far away so I could

    20 not really see but I saw somebody being beaten. I did

    21 not know who it was, I just saw that there was a crowd

    22 there.

    23 Q. Now, what happened next? What happened --

    24 what was the next thing to happen after you observed

    25 what Slavko Dokmanovic was doing?

  147. 1 A. There was a reservist of some 40, quite

    2 strong -- and he had a whistle like the judges have at

    3 football matches. Some people were getting beaten

    4 inside, and after about 10 minutes the door was opened

    5 a little. They were not closed. This reservist came in

    6 and whistled, and said, "that is enough. Let us go".

    7 I can tell you that I personally was glad. However, one

    8 set went out and another set came in. I was not beaten

    9 again, but others did get some beatings. There were two

    10 women in that hall too. I know one of them. Dragica

    11 Tuskan. I do not know the other one.

    12 Q. Now, did you subsequently become separated

    13 from the rest of the group in the hangar?

    14 A. Yes. After a while, roughly, shall we say

    15 about an hour and a half later of what I would describe

    16 as hell, I do not think hell is like that, though

    17 I have never been to hell.

    18 I do not really know whom I should thank for

    19 staying alive, because Ivankovic was there, then my

    20 neighbour Stevan Zoric. I got on well with Puric, even.

    21 We played soccer together. In any event, I was taken

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  148. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted) I do not know his surmame.

    3 Then somebody called Joakim Dudas, around --

    4 I cannot recall any more names. I think there were

    5 about 10 of us.

    6 Q. Now, when you were separated, where did you

    7 go?

    8 A. When they took us out, after about 20 minutes

    9 we were outside. Suddenly it became dark, and then we

    10 entered a kind of combi Polo. I remember well that the

    11 lights had to be turned down because as we started

    12 there was another vehicle coming towards us with its

    13 lights on.

    14 They took us as far as Velepromet and there

    15 was no room there. So, then they took us to a knitwear

    16 plant known as Modateks. It is on the road between

    17 Petrovci and Vukovar. We got there, shall we say, about

    18 6.30, 7 o'clock. I do not know exactly, because I no

    19 longer had my watch on me and believe me, I had

    20 forgotten that I had a pocket watch as well.

    21 The only thing that the Mogosa did not take

    22 from me. You know how it is, it was the winter time,

    23 I was wearing a jacket so I had several pockets and he

    24 simply did not find that watch. And so, about

    25 7 o'clock, 7.30, we reached Modateks.

  149. 1 At the door was George Japavlovic. Until

    2 yesterday, a bricklayer who had been -- who had worked

    3 on my house or rather my son-in-law's house, and

    4 talking to him was a woman. As far as I know she is

    5 Croatian, Nevenka, just now I cannot recall the

    6 surname, but I will remember later on in my testimony.

    7 Abramovic.

    8 And there was a light from the left, a rather

    9 dim light, and below that light I would say there were

    10 about 120 or 140 women to the left, so we entered this

    11 big factory hall straight ahead, and no more than five

    12 minutes later a man, somebody called Dusko,

    13 a good-looking young man, a Serb, who used to work in

    14 the iron works and as it was quite dark, he asked

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 you. We will talk in the morning". And that was all

    18 that happened that evening on 20th November 1991.

    19 Q. And then what happened after that?

    20 A. In the morning, so by now it is 21st

    21 November, about 5 am, I am not quite sure, three buses,

    22 I think, and the women were taken away. Again, I do not

    23 know where to, and we stayed behind alone. In the

    24 morning, some regular JNA soldiers appeared. There were

    25 some reservists as well, and the most important among

  150. 1 them was somebody known as Deda. I know him well but

    2 I do not know his name. I cannot say anything bad about

    3 him. You will hear later on about him in my testimony.

    4 But about 8.30 it was raining outside, and I know

    5 I must have done -- I do not know, I must have done

    6 something wrong, since they told me to go and collect

    7 the rainwater because it was raining, in a can. I did

    8 not even have time to feel afraid, and this young

    9 soldier took out a pistol and fired behind my back.

    10 I did not bat an eyelid, so I started washing

    11 this large hall and about 10 o'clock, 10.30, a young

    12 girl, not more than fifteen, sixteen, shall we say,

    13 appeared dressed in an olive green uniform with a coat,

    14 a JNA overcoat, with two soldiers and she pointed her

    15 finger at me and then the two of them took me against

    16 the wall. They spread my arms. She had a knife of some

    17 20 centimetres long, and she put it against my neck.

    18 I did not know who she was.

    19 The first question was, "who did you vote

    20 for?"; do not expect me to be brave. I said,

    21 "Ivica Racen". He was the Communist, because

    22 Yugoslavia was a Communist country. "Who else did you

    23 vote for?", she said. I said, "for Milicovic", I think

    24 he is from Bobota. He was director of the Post Office.

    25 He was the municipal delegate. And another one of ours

  151. 1 who was also a local from Vukovar, and then she said,

    2 "how many Serbs have you killed?", "how many old women

    3 have you killed?", "where is your uniform?". And,

    4 "where is your automatic rifle?". Believe me, I was

    5 not that scared as I was at Ovcara. So I said, "what do

    6 you mean?". Then she shouted at me. She took

    7 a cigarette from this soldier. She approached four

    8 centimetres to my eye, and she wanted to put out the

    9 cigarette in my eye. I do not know whether she would

    10 have succeeded but the young soldier would not let her

    11 do it.

    12 After that, the situation calmed down

    13 a little. But I wish to emphasise on 21st of

    14 November while those women were still there, some

    15 women, because I do not think all of the women were

    16 there. This particular soldier, using an anti-aircraft

    17 gun, fired so much in the yard so that the other one

    18 told us, "do not be afraid, it is my friend's patron

    19 saint's day". I never knew what day that was.

    20 So, the situation calmed down a little.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, may I interrupt

    22 the evidence for one moment and ask that there be

    23 a redaction of page 149, lines 12 and 13? Thank you.

    24 Mr. Berghofer, were you subsequently taken,

    25 imprisoned in Sremska Mitrovica?

  152. 1 A. Mr, Doctor, this is still 21st. We have not

    2 reached Velepromet yet.

    3 Q. I see. Well, perhaps you could, in a summary

    4 form, tell us how it is that you ultimately ended up in

    5 Sremska Mitrovica.

    6 A. I shall speed it up. Around 2 o'clock

    7 (redacted)-- he cursed my

    8 mother and said, "who brought you here?". Perkovic

    9 said, "Ivankovic", and I do not know who else he

    10 mentioned. He cursed his mother again, and ours and

    11 said he was going to kill him first and then us. I am

    12 not sure, and I did not hear well. I have already fixed

    13 the number of them, but I am not sure about that. In

    14 any event, this Deda gave us some bread and then Jesda,

    15 Mistankovic appeared and he too is a neighbour who

    16 never hurt me and accompanied by Deda, Jesda

    17 Mistankovic and another one, they took us to

    18 Velepromet.

    19 In Velepromet they separated Perkovic,

    20 Tihomir. One of them kicked him in the face, took him

    21 out, cursed his mother, threatening to cut his ear.

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)and about 2300 hours,

    24 two young soldiers came and said, "do not be afraid,

    25 the captain wants to save you, so get on the bus", and

  153. 1 we went off to the barracks somewhere just before

    2 midnight on 21st.

    3 Q. And where did you go then?

    4 A. You mean from the barracks? So it is already

    5 22nd now. Yes. They registered our names. They put us

    6 on the buses, and we were driven off direct to Sremska

    7 Mitrovica.

    8 Q. And how long were you imprisoned there?

    9 A. Four and a half months.

    10 Q. And were you then subsequently exchanged?

    11 A. I was. I was exchanged on 27th March 1992.

    12 Near Osijek at Nemetin.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I have no further

    14 questions, your Honour, but before cross-examination,

    15 might I ask for another redaction at page 154, line 11?

    16 That has been notified to the Registry.

    17 If your Honours please.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: May I turn to Mr. Fila and ask

    19 whether he would like to start because it is rather

    20 late. It is twenty past five. We should, in principle,

    21 stop at 5.30.

    22 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I cannot finish by

    23 5.30 under no circumstances.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: But do you prefer to start

    25 tomorrow morning at 9.15? Probably it is better.

  154. 1 MR. FILA: It would be better, but if you

    2 wish, I can take advantage of the remaining ten

    3 minutes, but it would be better to start tomorrow.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: No, I think it is better to

    5 adjourn until tomorrow at 9.15 sharp. So we stand in

    6 recess.

    7 (5.20 pm)

    8 (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 tomorrow morning)