Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1246

          1  DAY 10         

          2            (9.15 am)

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning. I wonder

          4  whether the Registrar could be so kind as to call out

          5  the case number.

          6            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, your Honour. Case number

          7  IT-95-13a-T, the Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Could I have the

          9  appearances, please?

         10            MR. NIEMANN:  If your Honour pleases, my name

         11  is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues, Mr. Waespi,

         12  Ms. Sutherland, Mr. Williamson and Mr. Vos.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Fila?

         14            MR. FILA:  Good morning, your Honour. I am

         15  Toma Fila, appearing together with Ms. Lopicic and

         16  Mr. Petrovic on behalf of Slavko Dokmanovic.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. May I ask

         18  Mr. Dokmanovic whether he can hear me well?  Thank you.

         19            Now, before the Prosecution calls its first

         20  witness for this morning, we would like to raise an

         21  issue. The court would like to raise a question about

         22  the Prosecution witnesses to be called in March on the

         23  exhumation of the mass grave at Ovcara. Our purpose is

         24  to see whether we might be able to narrow down the

         25  issues in dispute concerning these exhumations. We have

Page 1247

          1  noticed that last Friday Mr. Fila said the following. It

          2  is in the transcript, page 1003, and I quote:

          3            "Regarding the Ovcara questions, the Defence

          4  is not denying at all the findings there and that those

          5  people were killed at Ovcara. I said yesterday too, and

          6  last time, that I am not disputing that there was an

          7  armed conflict. What I am disputing is an international

          8  armed conflict. I am not disputing that there were 200

          9  bodies found. I am just trying to establish which

         10  bodies they were."

         11            We therefore wonder whether Mr. Fila could

         12  specify what he is putting in issue concerning the mass

         13  grave.

         14            Mr. Fila, are you still disputing that most of

         15  the persons found in the mass grave were taken from the

         16  Vukovar hospital on the 19th or 20th November 1991?

         17  Before you answer this question, Mr. Fila, let me point

         18  out that we are endeavouring to see whether, in March,

         19  the Prosecution could tailor their case more

         20  specifically so as to address the points disputed by

         21  the Defence. It should, however, be clear that the

         22  court is in no way trying to push the Prosecution to

         23  compress its case unreasonably.

         24            So therefore I turn to Mr. Fila, and ask him

         25  whether he could answer my question.

Page 1248

          1            MR. FILA:  Your Honour, from the beginning of

          2  this trial I am not disputing that what happened in

          3  Ovcara is a violations of the Geneva Conventions, that

          4  it is a dishonourable and abhorrent act.  Even though

          5  I belong to the people I belong to, I am ashamed of

          6  what has happened at Ovcara, and I hope that that is

          7  clear.

          8            The reason that the Defence has disputed

          9  individual names is in order to try and establish

         10  exactly who it was that was left there, and where an

         11  error was made, simply because this would be

         12  advantageous for the judgement too, to have the accurate

         13  data.

         14            The second point is that the indictment says

         15  that they were all non-Serbs. That is not correct.

         16  Among the persons executed at Ovcara there are Serbs

         17  and we have listed them. We expect the Prosecutor to

         18  prove that they were non-Serbs because the burden is on

         19  the Prosecution, and there are four such persons, four

         20  names.

         21            Secondly, you will see in the reports on the

         22  abductions that there is the name of a man who has been

         23  identified as executed at Ovcara, OVC 177, but who has

         24  not been included in the indictment because it is

         25  stated there that he was probably a Serb. So the

Page 1249

          1  Defence wonders, if the persons executed were Serbs,

          2  does that mean that they should not figure in the

          3  indictment? From this, one could make the conclusion

          4  that it is permissible to kill Serbs, even at Ovcara,

          5  or is it just a question of a mistake?

          6            But the only thing I am disputing at Ovcara

          7  is that it is not true that only non-Serbs were

          8  executed. If the forensic commission has found 200

          9  bodies then it has found 200 bodies, and it is not my

         10  intention to dispute that, nor do I have any doubts

         11  regarding their findings, and also that most of those

         12  200 bodies are people captured at the hospital, but not

         13  only on 20th, but also on the 19th, to which certain

         14  witnesses have already testified. I hope I have been

         15  clear enough.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. Thank you.

         17            Mr. Niemann, I assume you will now respond.

         18            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  In particular also, bearing

         20  in mind what we can find in the disclaimer included in

         21  the documents of the forensic investigation at Ovcara

         22  grave where it is stated that the conclusions of the

         23  report are not final because the final overall analysis

         24  by the forensic pathologist is not -- is still missing.

         25            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour, perhaps

Page 1250

          1  I might address that first. That is not tendered and

          2  will not be tendered. It is not evidence in the case.

          3  It is merely background material which can be made

          4  available.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Oh, thank you.

          6            MR. NIEMANN:  The position of the Prosecution

          7  on this, your Honours, is that we hear what Mr. Fila

          8  says, but he is saying two things. He is saying, "yes,

          9  yes, we do not dispute that a terrible thing happened

         10  at Ovcara", and that, "no doubt this would represent

         11  a breach of the Geneva Conventions, if we can prove

         12  international armed conflict and so forth", but then he

         13  goes often and he says, and has consistently, and we

         14  are not criticising him for it, it is his job to do it,

         15  but has consistently attacked the indictment on the

         16  basis of people named and more recently on the issue of

         17  whether or not Serbs were there or not. This is not

         18  clear. This is not a matter which can be readily

         19  resolved by an admission unless we have a very clear

         20  admission in writing as to these matters.

         21            We have an obligation to prove murder and

         22  proof of the murder is proof of death. I have not heard

         23  Mr. Fila say that he accepts that murder was committed,

         24  and that the proof, the element of proof of death has

         25  been established, and that he will admit to that, and

Page 1251

          1  I am not sure that he will.

          2            So, it is very difficult to say to the

          3  Prosecution, "reduce your case. Mr. Fila agrees to it

          4  all", and then at the end of the day we are confronted

          5  with an absence of evidence on this issue, so, I mean,

          6  we -- we are not trying to prolong this case and indeed

          7  I think the opposite is the case. It has proceeded

          8  faster than any other prosecution in this Tribunal, and

          9  we are endeavouring to be as expeditious as possible,

         10  but we have certain obligations, and I am not

         11  convinced, certainly, at this stage, that we have

         12  a sufficiently extensive and wide enough admission from

         13  the Defence to say, "Oh, we can just cut the end of the

         14  case off and that will be okay because everybody agrees

         15  with it, with the Prosecution contention, agrees that

         16  the Prosecution has proved the various elements that it

         17  must establish". We say that we have to prove a number

         18  of things, and one of the issues raised by Mr. Fila goes

         19  to the very heart of the question, and that is the

         20  definition of the group attacked. We -- there may well

         21  be Serbs in the group. We are not saying that, but we

         22  do need to establish that a -- that civilian population

         23  was singled out and attacked and that as a consequence

         24  of that they ended up being murdered at Ovcara. That is

         25  what we are alleging and that is what we are seeking to

Page 1252

          1  prove.

          2            Now, I do not think that Mr. Fila's admissions

          3  go anywhere near that.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Fila?

          5            MR. FILA:  I accept that 200 people were

          6  killed at Ovcara. Whether they were all civilians or

          7  not, I do not know, but it is a fact that there were

          8  soldiers, as the witnesses have told us, who were

          9  intentionally cut, cuts were made on their bodies in

         10  order to cover up their condition. You heard that from

         11  the doctor, that some people had plaster casts placed

         12  on them. Those were not civilians. Those were fighters,

         13  Croatian fighters, Zengers, Guards members or whoever.

         14            Not for a moment am I denying that what

         15  happened in Ovcara is a crime, a murder. What I seek is

         16  that we establish that they were not just non-Serbs,

         17  that Serbs were murdered as well, and in my opinion, if

         18  you kill a civilian, it does not matter whether he is

         19  a Serb or a Croat, but it is important that we know,

         20  because neither Serbs nor Croats should be murdered.

         21            Therefore, I do not know how to make myself

         22  clearer. I accept that it is a murder, that it is

         23  a breach of the Geneva Conventions during an armed

         24  conflict, but I do not accept that they were only

         25  civilian prisoners, that they were all from the

Page 1253

          1  hospital, and that they were all non-Serbs, so I ask

          2  the Prosecutor to prove that those four persons were

          3  Croats, or Chinamen, if you like, that they were

          4  non-Serbs, in brief, because they were Serbs, and

          5  I would like to know why a Serb who has been identified

          6  as having been killed at Ovcara is not included in the

          7  indictment, and I have indicated the names. I do not

          8  know how to make myself clearer than that.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  If I understood you

         10  correctly, you mean to say that you admit that those

         11  people who were found, whose bodies were found at

         12  Ovcara were killed, and -- were executed.  However, the

         13  dead do not include only Croatian civilians, taken from

         14  the hospital to Ovcara, but also non-civilians, and

         15  Serbs, whether or not the Serbs were

         16  taken from the hospital or not from the hospital. Is

         17  this correct?

         18            MR. FILA:  I do not know where they were taken

         19  from because I do not have the list, but that they were

         20  killed at Ovcara, that is obvious.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  The only point at issue,

         22  therefore, in dispute, is whether or not in addition to

         23  civilians killed at Ovcara, and brought to Ovcara first

         24  of all out of the hospital on 19th or 20th, there were

         25  also in Ovcara people who were killed but were not

Page 1254

          1  civilian, because they were combatants or Serbs. This

          2  is the point in dispute.

          3            MR. NIEMANN:  Well, no, your Honour.

          4            MR. FILA:  Yes, just that.

          5            MR. NIEMANN:  There is a world of difference

          6  between someone killed and someone murdered.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:  I used -- you are right.

          8  I meant to say, "murdered". I think Mr. Fila before

          9  said -- I wrote it down:

         10            "I admit there was a murder --

         11            MR. FILA:  Executed. Executed. Is that

         12  correct?

         13            MR. NIEMANN:  No, I will only accept murder.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Do you accept that --

         15            MR. FILA:  Yes, I do, completely, yes.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  You accept, you admit that

         17  those people were murdered at Ovcara.

         18            MR. FILA:  It depends when we count on the

         19  premeditation element. That is the question. When they

         20  were brought to Ovcara, I admit they were brought there

         21  in order to be executed, if Mr. Niemann is satisfied

         22  with that. Is that acceptable?

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Niemann?

         24            MR. NIEMANN:  I am afraid not, your Honour. We

         25  have to establish murder and if we are not going to

Page 1255

          1  call evidence we have to have an admission to murder

          2  and it has to be murder, premeditated, from the moment

          3  they were taken from the hospital right through to the

          4  point where they were shot at the grave site.

          5            JUDGE MAY:   Mr. Niemann, can I make this

          6  suggestion in order to try and cut the knot? Clearly,

          7  what you are concerned about is that the admissions are

          8  not very clear at the moment, and do not necessarily

          9  cover all the necessary points.

         10            MR. NIEMANN:  That is right, your Honour.

         11            JUDGE MAY:   Now, I do not know if it is the

         12  procedure here but it would seem to me that one way to

         13  deal with it might be this; if you were to draft the

         14  admissions which you would require in order to cover

         15  the point about the exhumations and murder, they could

         16  then be put to the Defence, and it could be ascertained

         17  whether the Defence accept the admissions or not, or

         18  are prepared to make the admissions. Would that be

         19  a way forward?

         20            MR. NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour. I am sure that

         21  would. If it was agreed then there would be no

         22  difficulty. It would be something which I would then

         23  seek to tender in the proceedings and we could proceed

         24  from there. But I am afraid I am far from satisfied at

         25  the moment, because of the various issues that Mr. Fila

Page 1256

          1  has quite rightfully raised. I am not in any way

          2  critical of Mr. Fila. He is entitled to argue anything

          3  he likes in the case but I am not satisfied that they

          4  constitute a sufficient admission for us to say, "we do

          5  not need to call evidence on it".

          6            JUDGE MAY:   If we had your draft of the

          7  admissions you would seek, then at least it might serve

          8  to narrow the issues, and of course if they were made

          9  it would save the calling of the evidence. It would, of

         10  course, be entirely a matter for the Defence whether

         11  they made the admissions or not. It is entirely for

         12  them.

         13            MR. NIEMANN:  And I think, your Honours, we

         14  would like the admissions to be agreed to, not only by

         15  counsel for the Defence but at least some assurance

         16  that the defendant himself accepts those admissions.

         17            JUDGE MAY:   Yes, of course. Of course.

         18            Mr. Fila, what I am suggesting, since

         19  Mr. Niemann does not seem to be -- does not seem to be

         20  satisfied, and of course it is a matter for him

         21  entirely, with the suggested admissions, is that he

         22  drafts the admissions which he says that he wants, and

         23  you have a copy, and have a look at it and decide

         24  whether you could make the admissions or not, of course

         25  it being a matter entirely for you, entirely for you,

Page 1257

          1  and the defendant, whether those admissions are made.

          2  Just as a way of trying to clarify and narrow the

          3  issues.

          4            MR. FILA:  Your Honours, please bear in mind

          5  the delicacy of my position and where I come from. The

          6  only thing I cannot accept is that the moment they were

          7  taken out of the hospital on 19th and 20th that already

          8  a decision had been taken to execute them. What I can

          9  accept is that when they were captured, as Witness Q

         10  stated yesterday, from the barracks onwards the

         11  decision was taken to liquidate them. That I accept,

         12  but that such a decision existed already in the

         13  hospital I do not accept and cannot accept. And anyway,

         14  I must not accept. It is very clear.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Yes. So you

         16  will -- anyway, you are accepting the suggestion made

         17  by Judge May and accepted by the Prosecutor that the

         18  Prosecutor will prepare this draft of admission and

         19  then you will see whether you may accept, after

         20  consulting with the defendant.

         21            I think, however, this discussion this

         22  morning has been extremely useful, at least for the

         23  bench, because we have now a clearer idea of the points

         24  in dispute.

         25            All right. So we may now, if you agree, we

Page 1258

     1  may now ask the Prosecutor to call the first witness.

          2            MR. NIEMANN:  Just with respect to our order

          3  of witnesses today, your Honour, the witness,

          4  Witness A, is still ill and my colleague, Mr. Williamson

          5  intends to take him through his evidence. We are hoping

          6  that he will be in a sufficiently healthy or fit

          7  enough condition to testify this afternoon, but we

          8  believe that if we can give him the morning to

          9  endeavour to recuperate he should be okay by this

         10  afternoon but there is some uncertainty about that at

         11  the moment.

         12            MR. WAESPI:  Good morning, your Honours. Our

         13  next witness will be Mr. Jan Schou and he will testify

         14  in English.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Good morning. I would like to

         16  ask you to make the solemn declaration.

         17                     JAN SCHOU (sworn)

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. You may be seated.

         19  Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.

         20                   Examined by MR. WAESPI

         21       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Schou. Do you understand me?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Could you please state for the court your

         24  name?

         25       A.   My name is Dr. Jan Schou.

Page 1259

          1       Q.   Were you interviewed on 4th and 5th of

          2  December 1995 by investigators from this Tribunal?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   And did you sign a document which was the

          5  written result of this interview?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   I will now show you a document and ask you

          8  whether this is the document you have signed in

          9  December 1995. Do you see your signature on it?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11            MR. WAESPI:  Thank you very much. I would like

         12  to tender this document as the next Prosecution

         13  exhibit.

         14            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 73.

         15            MR. WAESPI:  And it should be under seal.

         16            Dr. Schou, what nationality are you, and where

         17  are you living at present?

         18       A.   I am Danish, and I am living in Jutland in

         19  Denmark.

         20       Q.   What is your profession?

         21       A.   I am a specialist in gynaecology.

         22       Q.   In 1991 were you a member of the ECMM, that

         23  is European Community Monitoring Mission in the former

         24  Yugoslavia?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1260

          1       Q.   What was the reason for this assignment? How

          2  did you qualify for that job?

          3       A.   The Danish Foreign Ministry wanted, or the

          4  Danish army wanted a military person which also was

          5  a doctor.

          6       Q.   In general, what was your duty, your function

          7  within the ECMM structure?

          8       A.   I was -- well, the medical doctor of the

          9  staff of the ECMM members, and then I was in charge of

         10  all negotiations about prisoners and evacuations and

         11  wounded and something like that.

         12       Q.   Where were you based?

         13       A.   I was based in Zagreb.

         14       Q.   Now turning to the fall in 1991, did you

         15  participate in two ECMM relief convoys in Vukovar, one

         16  in October and one in November 1991?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Can you please give us details about the

         19  first mission? I will ask you some questions

         20  about that.

         21            What was the purpose of this first mission in

         22  October 1991?

         23       A.   It was to make a humanitarian corridor to

         24  Vukovar and to get the wounded out from the hospital.

         25  The mission had tried it, I think, two weeks

Page 1261

          1  before, but it failed.

          2       Q.   Was that convoy, that relief convoy, part of

          3  an agreement between the warring parties?

          4       A.   Yes, there was an agreement.

          5       Q.   And who were these warring parties? Who were

          6  also part of that agreement?

          7       A.   The parties to the agreement were General Raseta from the

          8  JNA, and I did not know the name but someone from the

          9  Croatian government, and the chief of the EC Monitors,

         10  and of course also the NGO Medicine Without Borders, which

         11  was our humanitarian partner.

         12       Q.   Judging from your experience during those

         13  negotiations, was the Croatian government an equal

         14  partner in these negotiations?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   When did you depart from Zagreb and when did

         17  you arrive in Vukovar?

         18       A.   We departed from Zagreb on 18th October and

         19  stayed outside in Negoslavci -- no, Vinkovci, I think,

         20  the night over, and at the 19th October we started in

         21  morning and reached Vukovar about 12 o'clock.

         22       Q.   Was there a specific route, a way you were

         23  required to take?

         24       A.   Yes, there was a specific route and it was

         25  Nustar, Marinci, Bogdanovci and then Vukovar.

Page 1262

          1       Q.   And did you, in fact, follow that route?

          2       A.   We followed that route until we reached

          3  Bogdanovci where we were told from the Croatian side

          4  that the road was mined, that we had to take another

          5  way, and they guided us, the whole convoy which had

          6  a lot of ambulances, we were guided through the

          7  fields, outside the road and reach Luzac and then

          8  Vukovar.

          9       Q.   Was there any incident on that route to which

         10  the Croatians directed you to?

         11       A.   No.

         12       Q.   What situation did you encounter in Vukovar

         13  in general, and in the hospital in particular.

         14       A.   We -- travelling directly to the hospital and

         15  on the way we saw a lot of buildings which were damaged,

         16  and at the hospital we saw that it was

         17  damaged and only the basement could be used for

         18  “hospitality”.

         19       Q.   Was the hospital defended?

         20       A.   Yes, a kind of defence I think there were,

         21  because outside there were soldiers from the

         22  Croatian -- not the army, I think it was local.

         23       Q.   Did you see any heavy weapons in the

         24  hospital, machine-guns?

         25       A.   No, I did not see any heavy weapons in the

Page 1263

          1  hospital.

          2       Q.   Did you hear at a certain point another type

          3  of weapon?

          4       A.   Yes. I heard a mortar firing from the

          5  hospital area at the time we were in the hospital.

          6       Q.   Were you the only person in your relief

          7  convoy who was able to hear that noise, that weapon?

          8       A.   Yes, I was the only one that -- I am the only

          9  one that had heard it, I think.

         10       Q.   Thank you. How many patients did you take

         11  with you?

         12       A.   I take about 110 patient.

         13       Q.   When did you leave again?

         14       A.   I think we leave the same day about three

         15  hours before it get dark.

         16       Q.   Now, who formed this convoy when you went

         17  back to Zagreb? How many cars, and can you also give us

         18  some names of your colleagues, or tell us at least the

         19  countries they were from?

         20       A.   Yes. The leader of the convoy from the ECMM

         21  was a French colonel, did not know his name. His name

         22  was Pierre, I think, and then there was a Danish captain

         23  named is Mesk and I think we were about four or

         24  five ECMM cars in that convoy, so at least we were 12

         25  or 13 ECMM member in that that relief convoy, and I was

Page 1264

          1  in the first car with the leader and with a Canadian

          2  sea officer, and of course the driver. We were four in

          3  the car.

          4       Q.   Now, heading out of Vukovar, did you take the

          5  same route as you had on the way to Vukovar?

          6       A.   We started on the same route with our

          7  Croatian guide in front of us in a civilian car, and

          8  then our car which was a leading car, and then we have

          9  the relief -- no, the relation officer from the Serbs

         10  in the car behind, and then we have all the ambulances

         11  and trucks.

         12       Q.   So, you tried to get out the same safe way

         13  you had entered Vukovar, which was obviously cleared of

         14  mines.

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Now, were you stopped at some point on the

         17  way out of Vukovar?

         18       A.   Yes. When we go into the field, again, just

         19  outside Luzac, there was a wire across the road, and

         20  our leader, he examined the wire and cut it and then we

         21  drive further around the corner, and then in front of

         22  us there was a T-72 tank from the JNA army which was

         23  pointed at the car.

         24       Q.   Did you encounter an officer in charge of

         25  that tank or the forces you were stopped by?

Page 1265

          1       A.   Yes, yes. There were the tanks and then there

          2  was an APC that took us to a hill, just beneath

          3  where there was an officer in charge.

          4       Q.   Can you give us the name of that officer?

          5       A.   The name of that officer was Major

          6  Sljivancanin.

          7       Q.   Do you mean, "Sljivancanin"?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   Now, what did Mr. Sljivancanin tell you? Did

         10  you have any conversation with him?

         11       A.   You cannot call it a conversation because he

         12  had arranged a press conference. At the time we reached

         13  the top there were at least three or four television

         14  teams with satellite communication that -- and he was

         15  almost making a statement there.

         16       Q.   What exactly did he tell you or the media in

         17  his statement?

         18       A.   He tell us that we were co-operating with the

         19  Croatian -- that we were not following the agreement,

         20  that we were not following the route we were told to

         21  take, and a lot of things like that.

         22       Q.   Do you think that this situation, this scene

         23  was prepared by --

         24       A.   Yes, yes, it was prepared by the JNA because

         25  at the time we were stopped, the press already were

Page 1266

          1  there.

          2       Q.   Did Sljivancanin give you then any

          3  instruction on how to, which route to take following

          4  this incident?

          5       A.   Yes. We had to follow the original route back

          6  to Bogdanovci, Marinci, Nustar and then Vinkovci.

          7       Q.   Did you indicate to him that you were

          8  concerned about the fact that the road might be mined?

          9       A.   Yes. We told him that we had been told from

         10  the Croatian side, that the road was mined.

         11       Q.   And what did he reply?

         12       A.   He said that we had to take that way because

         13  it was the agreement.

         14       Q.   So you in fact went on to the road

         15  Sljivancanin directed you to?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   What was the result?

         18       A.   The result was that the fourth car, which was

         19  a truck, hit a mine on the road, and two nurses from

         20  Switzerland was blowing out of the car.

         21       Q.   Were the nurses seriously wounded?

         22       A.   There was at least a broken leg but at that

         23  time they were unconscious and we only treated them

         24  because we did not know what was happened with them.

         25  But I hear later that they had lost their hearing.

Page 1267

          1       Q.   And this occurred on the road, Sljivancanin

          2  had ordered you to go on. Is that correct?

          3       A.   Yes, that is correct.

          4       Q.   I will now show you a map, depicting the

          5  western part of the surroundings of Vukovar.

          6            I would like you, Dr. Schou, to show us the

          7  locations and roads of this first relief convoy to

          8  Vukovar, if you could, please, put it onto the overhead

          9  projector and it takes some time, if you could use

         10  a pen and indicate, first telling us, as soon as we see

         11  it on our screen where the locations are, where Vukovar

         12  is.

         13       A.   It was here. (Indicated).

         14       Q.   And what was the general direction of your

         15  convoy?

         16       A.   Between -- the agreement of the convoy was

         17  Nustar, which is just outside here, Marinci, which was

         18  on the Serbian side, Bogdanovci, which were JNA -- no,

         19  no, this was Serbian side, this was Croatian side,

         20  Bogdanovci and then this way to Vukovar. (Indicated).

         21       Q.   So can you make with your pen a line and tell

         22  us which way you were supposed, according to the

         23  agreement, to take when you entered Vukovar. Just what

         24  you said in words now, drawing a line.

         25       A.   Yes. The agreement were Marinci, Bogdanovci

Page 1268

          1  and Vukovar.

          2       Q.   If the usher could give you an appropriate

          3  pen, please.

          4            So first, the road you were supposed to take.

          5            Okay. Thank you. Can you please mark it with

          6  an "A", capital "A"? Then I would like you to show us

          7  the location when you were stopped by the Croatians

          8  when you entered Vukovar, and mark it with a, "B",

          9  please.

         10       A.   (Witness marked map).

         11       Q.   Then third, on which road were you directed

         12  by the Croatians?

         13       A.   This way... into the hospital which is here.

         14  (Indicated).

         15       Q.   And that is, "C", please, if you could sign

         16  it and that was a road which was safe for you?

         17       A.   That was a road which was safe on the way in.

         18       Q.   Thank you. Now, fourth, the way you again

         19  wanted to take in order to leave the city which is,

         20  I assume --

         21       A.   It is this one, C.

         22       Q.   Okay. If you could again, please, mark it

         23  with a "D", then the location where you were stopped by

         24  the JNA and where...

         25       A.   (Witness marked map). We were stopped at

Page 1269

          1  this -- something about this point and we were taken to

          2  the hill here where the press conference was.

          3       Q.   Okay, if you could mark that with an, "E",

          4  the press conference, and then next the road

          5  Sljivancanin directed you to, which was the original

          6  road, the first one?

          7       A.   This was the original road, yes, and then we

          8  were stopped by a mine, something like this. (Witness

          9  marked map).

         10            MR. WAESPI:  If you could mark the location of

         11  that mine with a, "G". Thank you very much, Dr. Schou.

         12            Your Honours, I tender this map as

         13  Prosecution exhibit number...

         14            THE REGISTRAR:  74.

         15            MR. WAESPI:  Dr. Schou, when did you eventually

         16  arrived in Zagreb?

         17       A.   From that point where we were stopped by the

         18  mine, we were taken by the JNA to Petrovci and then to

         19  Sid and the way around, nearly around Bosnia, back to

         20  Vinkovci, and we arrived in Zagreb, I think, one day

         21  after, because it take the whole night to travel.

         22       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.

         23            Let us turn now to the second trip in

         24  November 1991. What was the reason for this second

         25  trip?

Page 1270

          1       A.   The reason, we had a meeting in Zagreb with

          2  the Red Cross about evacuation of Vukovar, or try to

          3  evacuate Vukovar, but then we heard from the Serbian

          4  side that Vukovar was nearly taken, and I was flying

          5  with the head of mission to evacuate and from there we

          6  had -- we were asked from the ECMM to monitor the --

          7  you can call it the fall of Vukovar.

          8       Q.   When did you depart from Belgrade and who was

          9  with you?

         10       A.   We depart from Belgrade on 19th November in

         11  the morning, and there were two ECMM teams with three

         12  people in each team and then me as a special -- you can

         13  call it, because I was the only doctor.

         14       Q.   Was there a liaison person from the side of

         15  the JNA?

         16       A.   Yes, there were two liaison officers from the

         17  JNA which we picked up in the military headquarters in

         18  Belgrade.

         19       Q.   When did you arrive in the area of Vukovar?

         20       A.   In, I think, about 10 o'clock or something in

         21  the morning on the 19th, we arrived just outside Sid

         22  where we were stopped by a control post and were not

         23  allowed to go further, and the liaison officer, they --

         24  travelling further to reach the headquarters to get

         25  permission to -- that we could travel further, but from

Page 1271

          1  Belgrade we had permission that we could go to Vukovar.

          2       Q.   Do you know the reasons why you could not

          3  proceed with your mission?

          4       A.   No. No. I do not know the reason.

          5       Q.   Did you eventually go to Negoslavci?

          6       A.   Yes. We were waiting, I think about four

          7  hours, three or four hours at that checkpoint, and then

          8  we were almost returning to Belgrade, but then the

          9  relation officer came back and took us to the military

         10  headquarters in Negoslavci.

         11       Q.   Whom did you meet there at those

         12  headquarters?

         13       A.   At those headquarters I meet Major

         14  Sljivancanin again, and I met the colonel which was in

         15  charge of the militia JNA in that area.

         16       Q.   Was that a gentleman called Colonel Mrksic?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Now, seeing Mr. Sljivancanin again, what was

         19  he doing with the army? What was his function, in your

         20  opinion?

         21       A.   In my opinion, he was a political officer and

         22  I said that because in Denmark in the military army

         23  I am educated as an intelligence officer and I learn

         24  about how headquarters are built up, and Sljivancanin,

         25  he had a special uniform, he had a quite new uniform,

Page 1272

          1  compared to the normal soldiers there, and the colonel

          2  there. He had a -- an used uniform. You could see that

          3  he had been out in the sun and there was some dirt on

          4  the uniform.

          5            So in that way he had special uniform, not

          6  special, it was the same but it was quite new uniform,

          7  camouflage uniform, and also that the colonel almost

          8  had to listen to everything he said, what the major

          9  said, so the major was in a kind of charge, but not in

         10  charge of the forces, but in charge of everything, what

         11  has happened in that area.

         12       Q.   Did you have a meeting with Sljivancanin and

         13  Mrksic?

         14       A.   Yes, we have a meeting there where we try to

         15  get an agreement to reach the centre of Vukovar and

         16  especially the hospital.

         17       Q.   That day, the 19th, did you try again to

         18  enter the city of Vukovar?

         19       A.   We tried to enter the city of Vukovar and we

         20  were taking on a kind of “sightseeing trip” to

         21  outside Vukovar where we could see into the city.

         22       Q.   Did you eventually manage to go into the

         23  city?

         24       A.   We go just in the beginning of the city, and

         25  we were seeing that there were fighting going on in the

Page 1273

          1  city at that time. It was on 19th in the afternoon.

          2       Q.   Were you at some point in time in that

          3  afternoon able to call the hospital and to talk to

          4  somebody from the hospital?

          5       A.   Yes. From our car we called the hospital and

          6  we reached Dr. Bosanac.

          7       Q.   Maybe you mean Dr. Bosanac?

          8       A.   Yes, Dr. Bosanac. It was my interpreter which

          9  were in the car that were talking with her and she only

         10  said that we had to come fast and help the people

         11  there. And it was only, I think, 13 seconds or

         12  something like that, and then the line was broken.

         13       Q.   Did she give any reason why you had to be

         14  fast?

         15       A.   Yes. The hospital was nearly taken over by

         16  the JNA, or by the -- I do not think she said the JNA,

         17  I think she said, "the Serbs".

         18       Q.   Did you have the impression she was more

         19  concerned about the hospital being taken over or that

         20  something might happen to the patients?

         21       A.   It was that she was caring about, that

         22  something could happen to the patients. She said that

         23  it was awful at that time.

         24       Q.   Did you hear whether the ICRC was able to

         25  reach the hospital that afternoon, 19th November?

Page 1274

          1       A.   Yes. We hear from the headquarters that the

          2  Red Cross in the afternoon, later in the afternoon,

          3  reached the hospital and were throwing away again.

          4       Q.   They were thrown away again after having

          5  reached...

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Thank you. Turning now to the following

          8  morning, the 20th of November 1991, did you again try

          9  to get into the hospital?

         10       A.   Yes, we tried to get into the hospital and we

         11  were told at that time in the morning that the hospital

         12  was taken over, and that the Dr. Bosanac was captured

         13  with some other people.

         14       Q.   By "Dr. Bosan" you mean Dr. Bosanac?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   The same person who you had talked on the

         17  telephone?

         18       A.   Yes, the woman who was leader of the

         19  hospital.

         20       Q.   Thank you. Were you successful this time in

         21  reaching the hospital?

         22       A.   We reached the bridge over the Vuka in the city,

         23  and at that time we were told, and held back for

         24  I think two or three hours.

         25       Q.   What time in the morning was that around? Do

Page 1275

          1  you recall that?

          2       A.   Yes. It must be about 10 o'clock in the

          3  morning or something like that.

          4       Q.   How far away from the hospital were you

          5  stopped?

          6       A.   I think two kilometres or something like

          7  that.

          8       Q.   And by whom were you stopped?

          9       A.   We were stopped by Major Sljivancanin.

         10       Q.   That is the same person you saw giving that

         11  press conference about a month ago and again the

         12  previous day, 19th, in Negoslavci?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Was he in charge there?

         15       A.   He was in charge of his -- of his own people,

         16  the JNA people from the normal army, which also were

         17  a kind of guard for the EC members, and the EC members,

         18  it was, the agreement was that it was only me and my

         19  interpreter, Petr Kypr, that were able to go to the

         20  hospital.

         21       Q.   Did Sljivancanin give any reason why you

         22  could not proceed to the hospital?

         23       A.   Yes. He said that it was too dangerous, that

         24  there were snipers in the streets, and they had to

         25  clean up before we reached the hospital. We go there.

Page 1276

          1       Q.   Were you able, from your position at the

          2  bridge, to see down the road into the direction of the

          3  hospital?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   And did you see any signs of fighting, any

          6  sniper activity?

          7       A.   No, there were no fighting. People were just

          8  walking around, or not people, the soldiers, the

          9  Serbian regular soldiers were walking around in the

         10  streets and some of them are firing, celebrating in the

         11  air with their guns.

         12       Q.   Did any of them, the soldiers you have just

         13  described, appear to be taking cover or any other kind

         14  of protective measures, being concerned about snipers?

         15       A.   No.

         16       Q.   And the gunfire you heard, that was what you

         17  described as celebration --

         18       A.   Celebration fire, yes.

         19       Q.   Did any other members of the humanitarian

         20  organisations try to pass into the direction of the

         21  hospital as well?

         22       A.   Yes. When we are stopped there, maybe half an

         23  hour later, the chief from the Red Cross arrived and

         24  tried to reach the hospital again, and had -- you could

         25  call it a conversation with Major Sljivancanin where

Page 1277

          1  they were shouting at each other.

          2       Q.   And was this representative of the ICRC

          3  successful in arguing about access to the hospital?

          4       A.   No, no. He was told that they could not trust

          5  the Red Cross, and when we reached the hospital, the

          6  ECMM, or me, I was in charge of these humanitarian...

          7       Q.   So you were eventually able to pass through

          8  this checkpoint.

          9       A.   Yes. At that time, I think we stay at the

         10  checkpoint about two hours or something like that and

         11  then we were able to go to the hospital.

         12       Q.   When you arrived at the hospital, what did

         13  you observe?

         14       A.   I observed that the hospital was -- had been

         15  more damaged since last time, and in the hospital, or

         16  around the hospital there were three kinds of

         17  soldiers.  Of course, our protection guard from the

         18  JNA, and there were reservist soldiers, and then there

         19  were these irregular soldiers, and they were just

         20  walking around and some of them were beating the

         21  patients that were laying on the floor.

         22       Q.   Was Mr. Sljivancanin around there in the

         23  hospital as well?

         24       A.   Yes, he was.

         25       Q.   In terms of the patients, did you see any

Page 1278

          1  patients?

          2       A.   Yes. I saw all the patients, and I walked

          3  around with a doctor from the Red Cross and made a list

          4  about all of the patients to the Red Cross.

          5       Q.   These patients, were they recently wounded,

          6  or were the wounds older in your judgement, as a doctor?

          7       A.   It was at least one week old.

          8       Q.   So no recent wounds. Previous days or so.

          9       A.   No recent wounds.

         10       Q.   What were the unwounded civilians looking

         11  like? Were there women, kids, men? Can you describe it

         12  for us?

         13       A.   Yes, the hospital staff or the civilians were

         14  outside the building and there were women and there

         15  were children and of course there was some men too, but

         16  later I understand that these were the men that decided

         17  to go to Serbia after the evacuation.

         18       Q.   Which were only a few, I assume.

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Did you talk to one or two of those

         21  civilians?

         22       A.   Yes. I talked with, I think she was

         23  a dentist, a doctor, which I had been talking to one

         24  month before, but she had said nothing about what has

         25  happened. I think she was really scared at that time.

Page 1279

          1       Q.   Were you able to evacuate any patients or

          2  other civilians from the hospital?

          3       A.   Yes. I think after an hour the JNA came with,

          4  I think, 10 ambulances and I think four buses or

          5  something like that, civilian buses.

          6       Q.   Did you join these buses provided by the JNA?

          7       A.   No. I was told that I was only monitoring,

          8  and I could not do anything myself, just watch.

          9       Q.   In terms of timing, when did -- did you see

         10  the convoy leaving the hospital and what time was that?

         11       A.   It was just before dark, the convoy leave the

         12  hospital, and at that time it was, I think, or I was

         13  told that it was taken over by our original group of

         14  ECMM members.

         15       Q.   So you stayed all afternoon in the hospital?

         16       A.   No, I went also to the, I think it was

         17  a school or a hospital or -- in another town where we

         18  stayed with a patient, the night over, and then the

         19  next day I went back to Vukovar to get the last of the

         20  wounded people out.

         21       Q.   So you did not see the convoy leaving in the

         22  afternoon, or you said evening of the 20th November.

         23       A.   I saw the convoy leaving from the hospital,

         24  yes, and I was also told from the other ECMM members

         25  that some of the buses were entered by some Serbs,

Page 1280

          1  which they tried to scare the people in them.

          2       Q.   When did you eventually return back, out of

          3  this area?

          4       A.   On the 21st November we had -- we take the

          5  last patient out of the hospital and then we were

          6  travelling to Bosnia, and that way around, back to

          7  Croatia.

          8            MR. WAESPI:  At this point I would like to

          9  show to you a brief video clip.

         10            For your Honours and the Defence, I have

         11  a transcript in both English and the original language

         12  which is a mixture between English and the local

         13  languages. Each of the transcripts has four pages, the

         14  first four being the original, and then the second four

         15  pages, the English translation.

         16            I might ask you at this point, did you hear

         17  later that you did not collect all the people from the

         18  hospital?

         19       A.   Yes. When we reached the hospital on 20th, we

         20  hear that -- and the major also tell us that they had

         21  taken some prisoners away from the hospital, yes. And

         22  of course also the Dr. Bosanac.

         23       Q.   Yes. You mentioned her already. Thank you

         24  very much.

         25            If the technicians could get prepared,

Page 1281

          1  please...

          2                       (Video played)

          3            Maybe can we quickly stop here? Doctor, do

          4  you remember this scene here you have just seen?

          5       A.   Yes. I was 2 metres or 3 metres from that

          6  conversation there.

          7       Q.   And which location is it? Is it the bridge

          8  over the Vuka River you described a moment ago?

          9       A.   Yes. It is just beneath the bridge and we saw

         10  the bridge and we saw the APC on the bridge.

         11       Q.   If we can have the picture of this video, the

         12  still picture now on the monitor, please -- excuse me,

         13  if I may ask the technicians, can we have the video,

         14  the still picture on the monitor, the monitor on our

         15  video, I mean, on our desks so that the witness is able

         16  to -- exactly. Yes. So we could proceed with it until

         17  we see the persons involved in that conversation, if

         18  the technicians can go on with the video, please: if

         19  you can stop now, please. Thank you very much.

         20  Dr. Schou, can you describe for us now the two persons

         21  we see on this -- you just saw a moment ago?

         22       A.   Yes. Yes. I can -- the two persons, they are

         23  the leader of the Red Cross, the person to the right,

         24  and to the -- oh, yes.

         25       Q.   And the other person?

Page 1282

          1       A.   And the other person is Major Sljivancanin.

          2       Q.   Thank you very much. Now we can proceed with

          3  the video.

          4                       (Video played)

          5            THE INTERPRETER: (videotape translated).

          6            I got used to better collaboration with the

          7  JNA than what I am getting today...

          8            What is the matter?

          9            The colonel knows all the problems.

         10            No, there aren't any problems. It's just...

         11            The problem is... I can see soldiers walking

         12  on the streets.  I can see the trucks going in. Look.

         13  Look.  Look. There.

         14            Well, now I have opened the bridge to

         15  traffic...

         16            That bridge was not open to traffic.

         17            My colleagues were there.

         18            If, sir, your only concern are the interests

         19  of the people who are in that cellar and who my

         20  soldiers are keeping safe in that case that is all

         21  taken care of. If that is no concern of yours, then

         22  I have had young soldiers killed, 18, 19 and 20 years

         23  olds, then you are not welcome here. And, sir, my own

         24  soldiers have been killed here tonight and, sir, there

         25  is a war on here.  My soldiers got killed here tonight

Page 1283

          1  as well, and there is a war here, sir.

          2            I know.

          3            We are trying to make sure that you are all

          4  safe and left in peace, while you are coming to me

          5  talking of problems. If you do not like it here feel

          6  free to return back and go where you do like it, and

          7  I am embarrassed to have you treat me this way.

          8  Whatever you asked of me I have given it all.

          9            The convoy is moving towards the Vukovar

         10  hospital. It is about a kilometre away from the centre

         11  of town. This is a street that leads through the centre

         12  of town, to the Vukovar hospital. On the right-hand

         13  side --

         14            MR. WAESPI:  Can we stop the video for

         15  a second, please? Can you describe the scene now for

         16  us, Doctor? What is happening now?

         17       A.   Now we are travelling to the hospital, and in

         18  the front of us there is the security people with an

         19  APC, and then our liaison officer in the white car and

         20  then the next car is the ECMM car where I am in,

         21  together with Kypr.

         22       Q.   Thank you very much. Can we proceed with the

         23  video, please.

         24                       (Video played)

         25            THE INTERPRETER: (videotape translated).

Page 1284

          1            On the right-hand side is the police station

          2  of the Croatian police. In that building, or rather

          3  from that building came some shooting yesterday, and we

          4  witnessed the soldiers carrying out a couple of hundred

          5  rifles from that building, that the ZNGs and the

          6  members of the Croatian police left us. They were

          7  fleeing towards the hospital where part of them were

          8  hiding.

          9            Now they are entering the hospital and the

         10  members of the European mission are there too. You are

         11  going to take these vehicles --

         12       Q.   If we can stop the video again, can you

         13  describe, Dr. Schou, now, what we just saw a second ago?

         14       A.   We arrived to the hospital and at that

         15  moment, where the people stopped, the Red Cross or the

         16  people were told that we were -- we were monitoring,

         17  and that we were in charge.

         18       Q.   And now if you look at the monitor, well, it

         19  has appeared again, on the left side, that is your --

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   And on the right side?

         22       A.   That is Petr Kypr.

         23       Q.   And the person in the middle?

         24       A.   In the middle that is Major Sljivancanin.

         25       Q.   Yes. Thank you. It goes on for a few more

Page 1285

          1  seconds, the video, if you could proceed until it ends,

          2  please.

          3                       (Video played)

          4            (Video translation):  You have these signs

          5  and those people with Red Cross signs can also get in

          6  and no one else. That is to say no one else can pass

          7  through.

          8            MR. WAESPI:  Thank you very much. That is it.

          9  For clarification purposes also, talking about the

         10  background commentary, it is a footage by the RTV

         11  Belgrade news station.

         12            I tender this video as the next Prosecution

         13  exhibit.

         14            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes. The video will be

         15  Exhibit 75 and the transcripts, 75A.

         16            MR. WAESPI:  Thank you. Next, I would like to

         17  show the witness a photo album, and it is Prosecution

         18  exhibit number 8. I could indicate which picture

         19  I mean... (Pause) if you could put it onto the ELMO,

         20  would I like to ask you, Doctor, whether you recognise

         21  this building.

         22       A.   Yes, it is the hospital before the damage.

         23       Q.   And -- or maybe after damage, after it has

         24  been reconstructed.

         25       A.   Yes, maybe, yes. Yes.

Page 1286

          1       Q.   Can you describe to us what you saw when you

          2  entered the hospital yard on 20th together with your

          3  colleagues and Mr. Sljivancanin, the scene we just saw

          4  on the video?

          5       A.   Yes. We saw the hospital was totally damaged.

          6  We saw a red cross on the roof of the hospital, around

          7  there was some dead bodies or something, and the smell

          8  of everything. Yes.

          9       Q.   Can you tell us where the buses you were

         10  referring to in your testimony were standing? The buses

         11  which were provided by the JNA?

         12       A.   Yes, the buses, some of the buses were

         13  standing here to pick up the hospital staff which were

         14  lined up at this point, and the ambulance, military

         15  ambulances and some of the buses, I think two of the

         16  buses were travelling this way around and down here to

         17  get the people out from the basement. (Indicated).

         18       Q.   And what time in the day are you now

         19  describing?

         20       A.   I am describing in the afternoon, I think,

         21  just before it gets dark, or something, in the 20s of

         22  November.

         23       Q.   Thank you very much. The last piece I would

         24  like to show you are those nine pictures you provided

         25  to the OTP yourself: I would like -- yes, the usher,

Page 1287

          1  please, to show the first picture already on the ELMO.

          2       A.   I just want to say that these pictures which

          3  are my pictures, some of them are taken from myself and

          4  some from one of the other people that are -- what we

          5  changed pictures together when we arrived in Zagreb. So

          6  we had all the pictures.

          7       Q.   A collection of pictures.

          8       A.   Yes. Yes.

          9       Q.   Thank you. If you could describe to us this

         10  first picture, please.

         11       A.   The first picture, it is -- you could call it

         12  a graveyard just outside the hospital, just on the

         13  other side of the street where there were a hole in the

         14  wall, and inside there, all these people were -- all

         15  these dead people were.

         16       Q.   And these people are civilians?

         17       A.   These people are civilians. Only civilians,

         18  yes.

         19       Q.   Thank you. Could we please turn to the second

         20  picture?  Can you describe this picture to us, please?

         21       A.   Yes. It is in October, and it is where this

         22  truck hit the mine, and I can see this is -- this

         23  person is myself, and that person is from Medicine

         24  Without Borders and some of the others are also ECMM

         25  monitors. (Indicated).

Page 1288

          1       Q.   That is now the incident with the mine you

          2  have been describing, half an hour ago.

          3       A.   Yes, that is the incident with the mine and

          4  the mine hit the car in this -- just this, this side.

          5       Q.   Thank you, if we could turn to the next

          6  picture.

          7       A.   Just a moment, just a moment, I can tell you

          8  that the last car, or something like this, this is the

          9  point where this press conference was held.

         10       Q.   Okay. Thank you very much.

         11       A.   Yes. This picture shows Major Sljivancanin,

         12  and German ECMM members, and our liaison officer from

         13  Belgrade and it is in November, and it is the

         14  19th November. It is our --

         15  “sightseeing” we had just on the 19th, just for the

         16  beginning of Vukovar.

         17       Q.   Thank you. Next picture, please.

         18       A.   This is also the sight where we saw

         19  all these irregular people, and this is the Danish ECMM

         20  members.

         21       Q.   What do you mean by, "irregular people"?

         22       A.   I mean that -- I feel that there were three

         23  kinds of soldiers in the -- on the Serbian side. There

         24  were the JNA soldiers which were really professional

         25  soldiers, then there were these reservists which also

Page 1289

          1  were soldiers, but they were wearing older uniforms,

          2  but were under command, and then at last there were

          3  these irregular, which was all kinds of people, women,

          4  men, old, young, and they wear a knife in the boots,

          5  you can see a knife here, and they have all kinds of

          6  things on their clothes. (Indicated).

          7       Q.   Thank you.

          8       A.   And they were not under command.

          9       Q.   Let us turn to the next picture. What can we

         10  see here?

         11       A.   We can see the hospital, yes, and we can

         12  see -- and it must be in November because this is the

         13  JNA military ambulance we have there.

         14       Q.   The next picture, please.

         15       A.   And this is the same time. It is also in the

         16  hospital.

         17       Q.   Thank you. The next picture, please.

         18       A.   And this is the evacuation and it is the

         19  evacuation from the basement which I show you, just

         20  before, and these soldiers were doing nothing.

         21       Q.   And what kind of soldiers were those, now? If

         22  you return to the three types of soldiers you have just

         23  described a moment ago?

         24       A.   These types of soldiers, they were

         25  reservists. They were from a platoon or something like

Page 1290

          1  that and the officers and the soldiers were inside the

          2  hospital and they were drunk.

          3       Q.   Next picture, please.

          4       A.   This is outside the hospital, and it is where

          5  I took the staff from the hospital and the civilians.

          6       Q.   And they are now waiting to be evacuated?

          7       A.   They are waiting to be evacuated in the

          8  buses, yes.

          9       Q.   In the buses you mentioned in your testimony?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Provided by the JNA?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   And the last picture, please.

         14       A.   It is the same people from another...

         15            MR. WAESPI:  Thank you very much. I tender

         16  these pictures as the next Prosecution exhibit.

         17            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 76.

         18            MR. WAESPI:  That is all, your Honours, from

         19  the Prosecution side.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Fila?

         21                 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

         22       Q.   Your Honour, there is just one segment of

         23  this testimony that interests the Defence. In view of

         24  the fact that there are some differences in the

         25  translation in relation to the original, I should like

Page 1291

          1  to ask the witness to look at his statement before him

          2  in English, and on page 2, or rather page 3 of that

          3  statement, second paragraph from the bottom. In

          4  connection with what you saw, regarding mortar fire,

          5  I think that this is very important. If the witness

          6  could explain where he saw Croatian soldiers with arms.

          7  Was it in the hospital, in the hospital building,

          8  within the hospital grounds, where that mortar was

          9  operating from.

         10            Perhaps, your Honour, you could put it to the

         11  witness in one question so as to avoid us wasting time.

         12  I am sure you understand what I am getting at.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:  I am sure the witness can

         14  answer your question.

         15       A.   Yes. I understand the question, and it was in

         16  October, this time, the first time I was in Vukovar,

         17  and at that time I was guided around in the damaged

         18  hospital by the dentist doctor and at that time I hear

         19  a mortar, and I think it must be a 60 or 80 millimetres

         20  mortar firing from outside the hospital, but inside the

         21  hospital area, somewhere, I cannot exactly say that it

         22  is there, but it is inside the hospital area, and it is

         23  firing from Vukovar out.

         24       Q.   And where did you see armed soldiers,

         25  Croatian armed soldiers? Inside the hospital or within

Page 1292

          1  the hospital grounds?

          2       A.   Only in the hospital ground. Of course, there

          3  were some Croatian soldiers, the leader of the Croatian

          4  or something like that, they were showing us around

          5  inside the hospital, but only soldiers, the normal

          6  soldiers were outside the hospital.

          7       Q.   Did you see any armed soldier inside the

          8  hospital? Anyone, even one?

          9       A.   Yes, I think we have negotiation, or talk

         10  with some of the leaders, and they were pistols, yes,

         11  inside the hospital in the basement.

         12       Q.   Thank you. The Prosecutor has already asked

         13  you, how come that only you have heard the mortar, the

         14  88 millimetre mortar. How can you explain that other

         15  people did not hear it? Is it because you have some

         16  military experience and other people did not, or do you

         17  have another explanation?

         18       A.   About the military experience, on that day,

         19  there were also other Danish military persons, the ECMM

         20  members in the hospital. I can only tell that at that

         21  time I was the one that was guided around in the

         22  hospital to see how the hospital was on a -- you can

         23  call it on a professional view, and I did not know

         24  where the other people are at this time. Maybe in the

         25  basement together with the Croatian leaders, I did not

Page 1293

          1  know it, but I was guided around and see all buildings

          2  and see where they operate, the patients, and where

          3  they have their medicine and where they make the supply

          4  for the wounded and all these things, so I was guided

          5  around, and I was the only one that was guided around,

          6  outside, you can see in any floor, and... so I cannot

          7  explain, I can only tell -- and I also state to the

          8  ECMM that I have heard this mortar firing and it is

          9  also to the head of mission when I reached Zagreb

         10  I tell that I heard a mortar firing from the hospital

         11  ground outside -- from Vukovar outside.

         12       Q.   You know, of course, that it is not allowed

         13  to use weapons within a hospital, and to fire from

         14  a hospital.

         15       A.   I know that and I also know that when

         16  I told --

         17            MR. FILA:  Thank you, I have no further

         18  questions.

         19            MR. WAESPI:  Yes. Maybe the witness could

         20  answer the question.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:  Which question?

         22       A.   Yes. I know that you are not allowed to have

         23  weapons inside a hospital area, not only in the

         24  hospital, it is also in the area of the hospital.

         25  I know that.

Page 1294

          1            MR. FILA:  Thank you.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. Mr. Waespi?

          3            MR. WAESPI:  Can I ask an additional question?

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  Of course.

          5                 Re-examined by MR. WAESPI

          6       Q.   Did you see whether those soldiers who were

          7  sort of operating the mortar were JNA forces or forces

          8  from the Croatian side?

          9       A.   It was inside the hospital area, so of course

         10  it must have been the Croatian side that was firing.

         11       Q.   But you saw the mortar itself, the weapon

         12  itself?

         13       A.   No, I did not see the mortar. I hear the

         14  mortar firing from this hospital area, and my military

         15  experience said that it was in the hospital area. It

         16  was about 1 or 100 metre, inside 100 metre from the

         17  hospital.

         18            MR. WAESPI:  Thank you.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you.

         20            I have a couple of questions for you,

         21  Dr. Schou. At one point you said that you saw irregular

         22  soldiers -- I am quoting your words -- "irregular

         23  soldiers beating the patients lying on the floor". This

         24  was on the 20th November.

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1295

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:  Now, I would like to know

          2  from you whether this happened outside or inside the

          3  hospital.

          4       A.   It happened inside the hospital. It happened

          5  in the basement, and it happened when we walked around

          6  to register all these wounded, when I was together with

          7  the Red Cross.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you, and did Major

          9  Sljivancanin, or his officers or soldiers, do anything

         10  to stop that beating?

         11       A.   No.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:  And could you please tell me

         13  how were the irregular soldiers beating the patients?

         14  With any tool, weapon, or with their hands, or --

         15       A.   With their boots.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:  With their boots?

         17       A.   Yes. The patients were lying on the floor in

         18  the basement.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. And one last

         20  question. In the last of the pictures -- do you have

         21  the pictures?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  You can see, just the last

         24  one, you can see two soldiers together with the

         25  civilians. Now, how would you place -- in which

Page 1296

     1  category of military people would you place those two

          2  soldiers? Remember, the three categories, JNA,

          3  reservists and irregulars.

          4       A.   Yes.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:  Let us look at the one at the

          6  right-hand side.

          7       A.   Yes. These two soldiers, they are what I call

          8  reservists and they are from the -- you can call it

          9  hospital unit from the logistics, JNA troops.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Thank you. Is

         11  there any objection to the witness being released? No

         12  objection.

         13            Thank you so much, Dr. Schou, for coming here

         14  to give evidence in court. You may now be released.

         15            Mr. Niemann, should we take a recess now, or

         16  probably so that we can start with the new witness. Who

         17  is the witness who is here? So can we maybe have

         18  a recess of twenty minutes so we will convene at 11.05:

         19            (10.45 am)

         20                      (A short break)

         21            (11.05 am)

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:  Please make the solemn

         23  declaration.

         24                    MATE BRLETIC (sworn)

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. You may be seated.

Page 1297

          1            Mr. Niemann?

          2                  Examined by MR. NIEMANN

          3       Q.   If your Honour pleases.

          4            Would you please state your full name,

          5  please?

          6       A.   Mate Brletic.

          7       Q.   And what is your date of birth, Mr. Brletic?

          8       A.   13th July 1940.

          9       Q.   Mr. Brletic, on 8th November 1995, were you

         10  visited by Mr. Kevin Curtis of the Office of the

         11  Prosecutor of the Tribunal, and asked to provide

         12  a statement?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Was that statement taken down in the English

         15  language and then translated to you in the Croatian

         16  language?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   And when this process had been complete were

         19  you asked to affix your signature to the bottom of each

         20  page of that statement?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22            MR. NIEMANN:  Now, I have two copies of each

         23  here, one of the original and one of the translation in

         24  the Croatian. Could the translation and the original be

         25  given to Mr. Fila and ones marked as exhibit, the translation

Page 1298

          1  as exhibit A, next in order for the Prosecution, if your

          2  Honours please. I think it is probably the same one as

          3  Mr. Fila already has.

          4            Mr. Brletic, looking at the document now shown

          5  to you in the English language, can you see a signature

          6  attached to the bottom of that?

          7       A.   I can.

          8       Q.   Is that your signature?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10            MR. NIEMANN:  I tender the statements, if your

         11  Honours please.

         12            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 77 and the Croatian

         13  translation, 77A.

         14            MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Brletic, were you trained as

         15  a police officer?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   And did you do special study in criminology

         18  as well?

         19       A.   Yes, I did.

         20       Q.   And are you a qualified criminologist?

         21       A.   Yes, I am.

         22       Q.   In 1991 did there come a time when you were

         23  the police commander for Ilok?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   And what was your area of responsibility as

Page 1299

          1  police commander of Ilok?

          2       A.   To keep public order and law in Ilok and the

          3  vicinity and also the safety and security of the entire

          4  population.

          5       Q.   Now, at the same time, did you also occupy

          6  a military position in Ilok?

          7       A.   I was a commander of the headquarters for

          8  defending the town of Ilok and the surrounding area.

          9       Q.   And what was the military organisation to

         10  which you were attached at that time?

         11       A.   Territorial Defence of the town of Ilok.

         12       Q.   And what were your duties in your military

         13  capacity, as opposed to your police capacity?

         14       A.   To organise defence from incursions by

         15  paramilitaries into the town of Ilok, and surrounding

         16  areas.

         17       Q.   I would like to ask you some questions, if

         18  I may, about the structure of both these organisations,

         19  the police and military, in Vukovar at that time, and

         20  I would ask you firstly, with respect to the police, in

         21  Vukovar, the opstina of Vukovar, what was the chain of

         22  command with respect to the  commander of

         23  police of Ilok. In other words, who was your immediate

         24  superior?

         25       A.   In Vukovar was -- there was a police station

Page 1300

          1  and Pole Stipo was head of police.

          2       Q.   And he was your commander?

          3       A.   He was police commander of the entire police

          4  area of Vukovar, which included Ilok as well.

          5       Q.   And your superiors, who was his superior, if

          6  we can go up the chain, so to speak? Who did he answer

          7  to?

          8       A.   The Ministry of the Interior in Zagreb, to

          9  the Minister of the Interior.

         10       Q.   Now, did the police have any connection to

         11  the municipal authorities in Vukovar? Was there any

         12  link to them in this chain of command?

         13       A.   There were direct links with the

         14  municipality.

         15       Q.   Can you describe those links for me please?

         16       A.   When security and safety and the territory of

         17  the municipality are threatened then the president of

         18  the municipality ask the police to intervene and to

         19  ensure this safety and security.

         20       Q.   So, in certain circumstances does the

         21  president of the municipality have a role in terms of

         22  commanding the police forces of the municipality?

         23       A.   Yes. But with the previous approval of the

         24  Ministry of the Interior in Zagreb.  Then they agree on

         25  the detail as to how action should be taken in order to

Page 1301

          1  ensure safety and security.

          2       Q.   Thank you. Now, if we can switch over now to

          3  the military side, which you were also a commander of,

          4  what about that structure? Who was your immediate

          5  superior in the municipality?

          6       A.   The superior in the military structure was

          7  the head of the defence secretariat in the

          8  municipality.

          9       Q.   And the defence secretariat, what is that

         10  body? Can you describe that for us, please?

         11       A.   The secretariat for national defence falls

         12  directly under the Ministry of Defence of the Republic.

         13       Q.   Thank you. Now, is there any link to the

         14  municipality authorities, the municipal authorities,

         15  with respect to the Territorial Defence?

         16       A.   There are direct links, because in the

         17  structure of the municipality that is where the

         18  Ministry -- that is where the secretariat of the

         19  interior and the secretariat of the defence, they are

         20  also at a given point in time the authorities of the

         21  municipality, and when there is a safety and security

         22  threat in the municipality, then the president of the

         23  municipality coordinates this, but according to the

         24  command of the Ministry of the Interior and the

         25  Ministry of Defence; coordinates the work of these

Page 1302

          1  agencies and also coordinates various police and

          2  military actions in the territory.

          3       Q.   Now, if we can move on to another body and

          4  ask what its relationship to the Territorial Defence

          5  is; the JNA. How did you understand the link and

          6  connection between the JNA and the Territorial

          7  Defence?, if there was.

          8       A.   That is a rather firm link between the JNA

          9  and the Territorial Defence. They closely cooperated

         10  because in the Territorial Defence there are reserve

         11  officers of the JNA who co-ordinated their plans and

         12  programmes for the defence of certain municipalities

         13  and beyond that, state-wide.

         14       Q.   Now, when it comes to mobilisation power, who

         15  has the power to mobilise the Territorial Defence?

         16       A.   Mobilisation is carried out through the

         17  municipality concerned, where the secretariat for

         18  defence is.

         19       Q.   And what role, if any, would the president of

         20  the municipality have in relation to the issue of

         21  mobilisation of the Territorial Defence?

         22       A.   He actually issues the order commanding

         23  mobilisation of the Territorial Defence.

         24       Q.   Now, in terms of weapons, who has the

         25  authority or responsibility to acquire weapons on

Page 1303

          1  behalf of the Territorial Defence?

          2       A.   The Territorial Defence, as far as weapons

          3  are concerned, is directly related to the Ministry of

          4  Defence of the Republic and of the state at large.

          5       Q.   So in this case, prior to the dissolution of

          6  the SFRY it would have been Croatia.

          7       A.   It would have been Croatia.

          8       Q.   And generally speaking, would it be fair to

          9  say that Croatia, the Republic of Croatia, would have

         10  considered that if it came to a question of determining

         11  ownership of these weapons, that it, in fact, owned the

         12  weapons of the Territorial Defence?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   And would it be fair to say that they

         15  could -- there could be a grievance by the Republic of

         16  Croatia, under the old federation structure, if the JNA

         17  were to take command of those weapons.

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Did the JNA in fact take possession of the

         20  weapons of the Territorial Defence, in the Vukovar

         21  municipality, so far as you are aware?

         22       A.   The JNA took possession of all the weapons of

         23  the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Croatia in

         24  1990 and the Territorial Defence remained without any

         25  weapons.

Page 1304

          1       Q.   And having regard to the structure of things,

          2  and the authorities of the various republics versus the

          3  federal authorities, was this considered to be either

          4  an inappropriate or an illegal act?

          5       A.   Yes. It was planned, in good time, and all

          6  the weapons were withdrawn because the state of

          7  Yugoslavia was afraid that the Territorial Defence

          8  would be that strong that it would resist the Yugoslav

          9  army, and that is why the weapons were withdrawn to the

         10  warehouses of the Yugoslav People's Army.

         11       Q.   Having regard to these twin structures, the

         12  JNA and the Territorial Defence, was it ever envisaged

         13  that one army would turn upon the other?

         14       A.   No.

         15       Q.   Now, I would like to, if I may, take you to

         16  the events in Ilok when you were police commander and

         17  when there was an increasing tension between the

         18  Serbian side, if I can call it that, and the Croatian

         19  side in the Vukovar area and in particular in Ilok. Can

         20  you tell us how these events escalated and from when,

         21  and the circumstances that led to their escalation?

         22       A.   On 2nd May 1991 there was an incident at

         23  Borovo Selo. The forces, the paramilitary forces, Serb

         24  paramilitary forces attacked the MUP forces from

         25  Vinkovci when 12 policemen were killed in the area,

Page 1305

          1  because of the fear of paramilitaries that they would

          2  attack the entire area, in this area where I had

          3  command.  An issue was ordered to block all roads of

          4  the entire border area towards Serbia, and to take the

          5  bridge on the Danube River.

          6            When we did that, two days later a new order

          7  came from the Republic, from the Ministry of the

          8  Interior; we deblocked the entire area. On 7th May 1991

          9  the Yugoslav army took all the bridges on the Danube by

         10  Batina Skela and all the way up to Ilok and remained

         11  permanently in that area and in the area of Croatia.

         12  But on the Ilok bridge on one side and the other they

         13  are there. The commanders in Backa Palanka and below

         14  the bridge are the navy of the Yugoslav army with heavy

         15  weapons, Howitzers, guns, et cetera.

         16       Q.   So, in effect, your action to, in effect,

         17  defend the police which were under attack was met by

         18  resistance by the JNA, and the Yugoslav army.

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Now, what happened after that, particularly

         21  in the Ilok area? Did the JNA make any further moves or

         22  did it just merely move in its forces and stay in

         23  position?

         24       A.   As tension was mounting, mutual tensions

         25  among the population, this had a psychological effect

Page 1306

          1  on the entire population, and it was force that was

          2  practically advocated. We had to think about this, how

          3  to line up our own forces if there was an attack on the

          4  city and if they tried to break into the city, how we

          5  could repel this. We did not want a conflict with the

          6  Yugoslav army, we actually wanted to have full

          7  cooperation with them, but on 8th July there was an

          8  incident on the bridge, when the Yugoslav forces

          9  started firing from tanks, at a police vehicle in which

         10  there were four policemen, traffic policemen, who were

         11  controlling the police -- the traffic towards Sid. One

         12  policeman was killed in this vehicle and three were

         13  heavily wounded and they were taken to the Vukovar

         14  hospital in order to receive treatment.

         15            In this incident the forces of the

         16  Territorial Defence or the reservists of the National

         17  Guards Corps of Ilok, they resisted and, of course,

         18  they destroyed one tank of the Yugoslav army. This was

         19  in the early evening around 7 pm and it lasted about

         20  until 9 pm. At one point, though, Yugoslav army

         21  withdrew from the bridge. We did not take the bridge

         22  because we did not have such strong forces.

         23            During the night the Yugoslav army took

         24  advantage of what they had, and they got into the town

         25  of Ilok, a kilometre and a half. That is to say, from

Page 1307

          1  the bridge to the Dunav restaurant. This is one and a

          2  half kilometres, and that is how they weakened our

          3  position, so we were even more jeopardised. And on

          4  8th in the morning, the 8th of July, around 2 pm,

          5  aircraft of the Yugoslav army attacked Principovac and

          6  bombed it where the military barracks of the ZNG were,

          7  and two guards were killed and two were wounded, and

          8  this made the situation in Ilok ever more complex and

          9  tensions were mounting, vis-à-vis the Yugoslav army.

         10       Q.   So, in effect, what you had was the

         11  Territorial Defence of Ilok and the police of Ilok, of

         12  which you commanded both, in conflict at this stage

         13  with the JNA both in its naval, air and ground forces.

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Now, by August, what had happened in the Ilok

         16  area?

         17       A.   On the 20th July the Yugoslav army started

         18  practically a general attack at 5 am using all weapons.

         19  They attacked Ilok, and several facilities were

         20  destroyed and a woman was wounded. The attack went on

         21  for about two hours. We repelled that attack, soldiers

         22  did not enter the town, and we remained in the same

         23  positions, the Yugoslav army on the bridge and we near

         24  the bridge.

         25            I must tell you, the Croat forces were very

Page 1308

          1  poorly armed. We hardly had 300 rifles. Out of them,

          2  200 automatic rifles and 100 shotguns and we did not --

          3  we could not effectively resist the Yugoslav army. We

          4  were forced to talk to them in order to maintain the

          5  territorial integrity of the entire area.

          6            The army provoked this. They wanted

          7  a conflict because they felt that we were weak,

          8  although there was an incredible propaganda among the

          9  army.  The Jugo officers, those in charge of

         10  propaganda, said that in Ilok there were about 7,000

         11  well-armed soldiers with tanks, rocket-launchers and

         12  other weapons, which was not true. They knew that very

         13  well, because they were convinced themselves through

         14  their own operative links, namely through their spies.

         15            On 2nd August, the Yugoslav army penetrated

         16  through the border from the direction of Sid, and took

         17  a dominant position above Ilok, called Principovac and

         18  we were fully blocked that way. They had Ilok as it

         19  were in the palm of their hand, and they could have

         20  destroyed each and every one of our targets. This is

         21  a kilometre and a half away from the town of Ilok.

         22       Q.   And by this stage, this was about mid-August,

         23  I think, had they taken the town of Sotin?

         24       A.   About mid-August the forces of the Yugoslav

         25  army penetrated to Vucedol and cut off the road between

Page 1309

          1  Vukovar and Sotin and Ilok. A group from Negoslavci,

          2  a motorised brigade, a motorised unit, went from

          3  Negoslavci to Sotin and then to Vukovar and that is

          4  when Sotin fell. The people from Sotin started fleeing

          5  towards Ilaca, Berk and Nijemci.

          6       Q.   Now, you mentioned a moment ago, you said,

          7  "the Croat forces". Just to clarify that, is that

          8  a reference to the police and -- the police of Ilok and

          9  the Territorial Defence of which you were the

         10  commander?

         11       A.   Joined forces, joined forces. The police

         12  forces and the forces of the Territorial Defence, or

         13  rather the reserve ZNG, National Guards Corps.

         14       Q.   Now, as a result of this military activity

         15  out and around Ilok, and particularly in towns such as

         16  Sotin and Lovas, did that have an impact in terms of

         17  refugees on Ilok itself?

         18       A.   Those points in time had a decisive effect on

         19  the state of mind of the whole population. There was

         20  chaos, there was fear. People fled from those villages,

         21  because there was a blockade towards Vukovar. It was

         22  impossible to reach Vukovar, so they were all

         23  withdrawing towards Ilok because Ilok had a population

         24  of 6-7,000, but daily the population increased, so that

         25  at one point there was as many as 20,000 people in Ilok

Page 1310

          1  itself.

          2       Q.   Now, did there come a point in time when you

          3  decided that the only course open to you was to have

          4  negotiations with the forces that were arranged against

          5  you?

          6       A.   That situation set in later, towards the end

          7  of September when the road, Nijemci-Ilaca was cut off,

          8  when we had absolutely no connection left with Croatia,

          9  nor could we receive military or any other kind of

         10  support. Ilok had no hospital. We just had a medical

         11  centre with the three general practitioners who could

         12  not provide adequate medical treatment, should a larger

         13  scale conflict break out between the Croatian forces

         14  and the Yugoslav army. Therefore, we were in a very

         15  difficult situation, so we would not be able to treat

         16  our wounded if such a conflict were to break out, so

         17  that the wounded would have to commit suicide.

         18            Our other connection was with the Novi Sad

         19  hospital, which meant negotiating with the JNA for our

         20  wounded to be taken to the Novi Sad hospital, but this

         21  probably would not have been feasible, because each of

         22  our wounded persons would have been killed.

         23            We were therefore forced to start thinking in

         24  a different manner, to try and save Ilok and to create

         25  some kind of a free territory there, until the crisis

Page 1311

          1  in Yugoslavia was completely unravelled, and it was this

          2  that we went to negotiate with the Yugoslav army and

          3  the civilian authorities in Backa Palanka and the

          4  surrounding area.

          5       Q.   Now, when did you go to Backa Palanka, if you

          6  can remember approximately the time.

          7       A.   In September I went to Backa Palanka on

          8  several occasions. The first negotiations regarding

          9  a free Ilok started from Nesetin, Karadordevo, Backa

         10  Palanka. In Karadordevo, at a higher level, we had

         11  a meeting when the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Seda,

         12  came directly from Vukovar, Colonel Markovski and other

         13  officers were discussing the de-blocking of a farm near

         14  Vukovar which the army needed for milk supplies. We

         15  proposed that we would open up a communication to

         16  Sotin, a road, to ensure regular supplies. The army

         17  agreed to that but two days later did not respect those

         18  agreements, and we did not manage to achieve anything

         19  on that occasion.

         20       Q.   Now, when you first went to Backa Palanka,

         21  did they do anything to you personally?

         22       A.   I went to Backa Palanka on several occasions,

         23  when I was allowed to pass in cooperation with the JNA

         24  because it was in the interest of the Yugoslav army for

         25  us to free the road, because it was a roundabout way

Page 1312

          1  linking Backa Palanka and Sid, because we were keeping

          2  it under joint control and they wanted to use it too to

          3  transfer their forces to the battle front in Vukovar,

          4  and on one occasion in September when I returned from

          5  Vukovar, I was called urgently to a meeting at Backa

          6  Palanka, to a bridge, in order to reduce tensions and

          7  reach agreement on a cease-fire.

          8            Colonel Ostojic captured me on that occasion

          9  and took me to the military prison in Paragovo near

         10  Novi Sad.

         11       Q.   And how long were you held prisoner there

         12  for?

         13       A.   I was held there for five days.

         14       Q.   And when you were released, did you ascertain

         15  or obtain certain information about what was said about

         16  you while you were in detention?

         17       A.   I was informed, because I was at the top of

         18  the headquarters combining the armed forces of Ilok and

         19  the surroundings, at that time there was a general

         20  attack on Tovarnik which was very important in the

         21  context of the overall defence of the area. The army

         22  had planned to capture me in order to carry out the

         23  attack unhindered, without meeting any resistance,

         24  because in the meantime -- I was in Tovarnik on the

         25  21st. I spoke to the Territorial Defence there and

Page 1313

          1  their commander regarding the resistance to be put up.

          2  When I returned to Ilok, their operational people heard

          3  probably that I had been to Tovarnik and that I would

          4  put up resistance with men and weapons in Ilok, so they

          5  tricked me and while I was in prison the whole area

          6  fell and we were cut off.

          7            And by capturing me they also wanted to cause

          8  panic among the population, knowing that this would

          9  have a psychological effect, and worsen the situation

         10  in the whole area among the population.

         11       Q.   Now, what was the general tactics of the JNA

         12  when it came to the taking of these towns? Did it

         13  follow a particular pattern and course?

         14       A.   The Yugoslav army had recognisable patterns.

         15  First it would issue sharp ultimatums if the population

         16  and the leadership of the village or the town did not

         17  respect them.  They would first use heavy artillery to

         18  shell the locality, to destroy the facilities and then

         19  enter those places. Also, they used psychological

         20  methods and the people fled leaving everything behind

         21  in the direction of Ilok, thinking it would be safer

         22  there because after all it was a town, and they thought

         23  that there were larger concentrations of Croatian armed

         24  forces and of the police force and members of the

         25  National Guard Corps.

Page 1314

          1       Q.   Now, who was the commander in the overall

          2  district where you were of the JNA, particularly that

          3  you had dealings with?

          4       A.   The commander of the Novi Sad Corps was

          5  Colonel Petar Grahovac and of the whole area was

          6  General Arandelovic, who was based in Sid.

          7       Q.   And did you have discussions and meetings

          8  with both of these people in relation to the situation

          9  in Ilok?

         10       A.   Yes, I did.

         11       Q.   And were these discussions -- where did they

         12  take place generally?

         13       A.   All these discussions took place in the

         14  territory of Serbia, because Yugoslav officers did not

         15  want the negotiations to be conducted in the territory

         16  of Croatia, considering that their safety was in

         17  jeopardy there, even though we guaranteed complete

         18  safety. If I could go into Serbia with my negotiators,

         19  then I could provide security for them if they came to

         20  negotiate with me in Croatia. But since we were weaker,

         21  we had to concede.  They knew they were stronger than

         22  us and they knew that we had to do as they said.

         23       Q.   In addition to dealing with military officers

         24  from the Yugoslav People's Army, were any other

         25  officials or persons involved in these negotiations

Page 1315

          1  that you attended?, from the Serbian side?

          2       A.   Yes. On behalf of Backa Palanka the president

          3  of the municipality, Ljubo Novakovic, Mr. Mihael Kertes,

          4  their secretary of internal affairs called Dokic and

          5  some others.

          6       Q.   Now, these other persons, what was their

          7  position in the local community affairs, what rank or

          8  title did they have?

          9       A.   Mr. Ljubo Novakovic was president of the town

         10  of Backa Palanka, whereas Mr. Kertes held a prominent

         11  position in the ruling socialist party of Vojvodina.

         12       Q.   Now, are you able to explain why it is that

         13  the president of the Backa Palanka municipality would

         14  have any role in these discussions in relation to Ilok.

         15  What function did he perform?

         16       A.   He was directly linked to the Territorial

         17  Defence of Backa Palanka, and it is normal for the

         18  territory of Backa Palanka -- there was the

         19  headquarters of the Motorised Corps of Novi Sad, and

         20  JNA soldiers collaborated closely with the mayor

         21  because he was their host, in a sense.

         22       Q.   And so, are you saying that there was, in

         23  fact, in effect, a joint exercise going on between the

         24  JNA and the Territorial Defence of Backa Palanka?

         25       A.   Yes, because the Yugoslav army additionally

Page 1316

          1  supplied the Territorial Defence of Backa Palanka with

          2  weapons, because at one point in time they were

          3  preparing for a general attack in the territory of

          4  Croatia, that is Ilok. They wanted to carry out an

          5  invasion across the Danube. They were preparing combat

          6  boats in support of the Yugoslav army so that jointly

          7  they would capture and carry out a joint-planned attack

          8  when the time came.

          9       Q.   Now, what was the substance of these

         10  negotiations? What did you discuss and what was being

         11  proposed on either side?

         12       A.   The substance of the negotiations had to do

         13  almost regularly with ways of protecting the area of

         14  Ilok, for the conflicts to cease until the crisis has

         15  been overcome. When the tensions heightened to such

         16  a pitch and when the Yugoslav army had already captured

         17  a number of villages around the town of Ilok, when

         18  certain crimes had already been committed against the

         19  civilian population, through our intelligence we

         20  learned what was in the offing for the town as a whole,

         21  and judging by threats and ultimatums from the Yugoslav

         22  army and officers who were planning to attack with

         23  every weapon at their disposal, we learned that the

         24  encirclement was tightening.

         25            In fact there were three encirclements.

Page 1317

          1  Strong forces had been brought in. 15-20,000 troops,

          2  Territorial Defence units and regular army units with

          3  all the possible weapons, combat boats, more than 200

          4  tanks and we do not even know the number of artillery

          5  pieces -- so in those negotiations we asked that we be

          6  allowed and permitted a general crime to be prevented

          7  from happening in Ilok because the population and the

          8  town would be totally destroyed, and the economy,

          9  because the whole town is concentrated on 4

         10  square kilometres, each shell has its target, and the

         11  little armed forces that Ilok had, would, of course,

         12  resist the enemy. How long that resistance would last,

         13  one cannot tell, and the Yugoslav army wanted that,

         14  wanted to take advantage of that, and the whole

         15  population would have been destroyed, and that is why

         16  we proposed at those meetings, that they make it

         17  possible for us to carry out an exodus of the

         18  population because, according to the Geneva

         19  Conventions, the population has a right to this.

         20            However, this was not immediately -- this did

         21  not immediately bear fruit, because higher level

         22  commands had to be consulted, and these things had to

         23  be discussed on several occasions.

         24            When we had agreed on the models, then

         25  this proposal was addressed through senior army

Page 1318

          1  officers to Dragolujb Arandelovic, with whom we had

          2  agreed a meeting at which we would agree on the method,

          3  and see whether the Yugoslav army would allow us to

          4  leave Ilok together with the entire population.

          5       Q.   Were the Geneva Conventions ever specifically

          6  mentioned and discussed at these meetings?

          7       A.   Rarely were the Geneva Conventions mentioned.

          8  The delegation of Ilok did mention that we had the

          9  right to this, whereas the Yugoslav officer said, "you

         10  know what you can do with that, right? We are the ones

         11  who are determining what is right".

         12       Q.   Do you recall an occasion on 26th September

         13  of 1991 being contacted by Colonel Grahovac?

         14       A.   I do. It was between the 26th and

         15  30th September. The telephone rang, and my policemen

         16  informed me that I was wanted urgently by Colonel

         17  Grahovac. This must have been in the morning between 9

         18  and 11. He asked me to come to Backa Palanka, that

         19  a European Mission had arrived, or rather the European

         20  Monitors who wanted to see for themselves what was

         21  happening in the territory of the town of Ilok and the

         22  surroundings.

         23            Since they were afraid of entering the town

         24  of Ilok where allegedly war operations were under way

         25  and the Yugoslav army could not guarantee their safety

Page 1319

          1  across the bridge, I was asked to come personally in

          2  a police car to Backa Palanka to give them assurances

          3  and to transport them to the town of Ilok.

          4       Q.   And what happened? When did you go -- what

          5  time of the morning was this, approximately?

          6       A.   This was happening between 9 o'clock and

          7  11 o'clock in the morning.

          8       Q.   And what happened? You went there and what

          9  occurred?

         10       A.   When I got there in my car, or rather when

         11  I left the police station, the town of Ilok was full of

         12  people, people were outside, they had already learned

         13  that the European Monitoring Mission was in Backa

         14  Palanka, and they were happy believing that they would

         15  bring salvation. They would inform Europe, and the

         16  tensions and the siege of Ilok would be stopped, and

         17  that the JNA would withdraw. When I crossed the bridge

         18  in my police car and came out in front of Mr. Grahovac's

         19  headquarters we greeted each other, we met the

         20  Monitors, there was a whole line of civilian

         21  personages, some of them I knew, some I did not.

         22            Among them was Mr. Dokmanovic, the president

         23  of the municipal assembly of Vukovar. When I approached

         24  him I offered my hand, he refused to shake hands with

         25  me. I was embarrassed. I ignored it. I said,

Page 1320

          1  "Mr. Slavko, it could be a good idea for you to come to

          2  Ilok and help the suffering people there, to use your

          3  influence with the Yugoslav army, not to allow any

          4  incursions, to prevent any crime in the territory of

          5  Ilok". His answer was that he cannot go to Ilok, that

          6  it was an Ustasha stronghold, and he said, "escort me

          7  to Vukovar", and I said, "you will be escorted by the

          8  Yugoslav army. You can go where you will".

          9       Q.   Now, do you know -- were you able to

         10  ascertain what role Slavko Dokmanovic was playing at

         11  this meeting that you were having with the officers of

         12  the JNA and the ECMM?

         13       A.   I was even surprised to see Slavko Dokmanovic

         14  in Backa Palanka because until then I did not know that

         15  he was in that area. I did not quite understand why he

         16  was there.

         17       Q.   How was he dressed?

         18       A.   I cannot really tell you now because I cannot

         19  remember whether he was in civilian clothes or in

         20  an uniform.

         21       Q.   And are you able to name some of the other

         22  people that were there at the time, and give the

         23  positions that they held, apart from those which you

         24  have already mentioned?

         25       A.   I have already mentioned Ljubo Novakovic,

Page 1321

          1  then Mr. Kertes, with the Yugoslav officers. I did not

          2  know the other people. I knew them but I do not know

          3  their names.

          4       Q.   Now, what about the ECMM Monitors. Did you

          5  ascertain who they were?

          6       A.   I think one of them was a Pole, one was

          7  a Frenchman and I do not remember who the third one

          8  was.

          9       Q.   Now, what happened after this meeting? Did

         10  the ECMM Monitors go back to Ilok with you?

         11       A.   Yes. The Monitors got into their car,

         12  I turned my car around and led them towards the police

         13  station in Ilok. When we got there, we had talked about

         14  the problems, the overall situation in the whole area.

         15  By mobile telephone they informed the European

         16  Community headquarters and the government of the

         17  Republic of Croatia regarding the situation in Ilok.

         18       Q.   Now, near Backa Palanka and particularly the

         19  Ilok bridge, did you learn of a place that was used

         20  for training volunteers and reservists on the Serbian

         21  side?

         22       A.   In the area of Backa Palanka, where the

         23  Territorial Defence of Backa Palanka was billeted, is

         24  a place called Bagremar. In that place was a centre for

         25  the collection of volunteers of paramilitary forces of

Page 1322

          1  the Republic of Serbia, to be sent to the front in

          2  Vukovar.

          3            On one occasion, towards the end of

          4  September, I was with a police patrol on the road that

          5  was controlling the traffic at that intersection. It

          6  was in the morning, and from the direction of Backa

          7  Palanka a convoy of buses, full of members of

          8  paramilitary formations from Serbia was heading to Sid,

          9  and from Sid via Tovarnik, Negoslavci, for the battle

         10  front in Vukovar. I concluded from this that there was

         11  a possibility to explain why Slavko was in the

         12  territory of Serbia, because, possibly, he was also

         13  involved in the collection of those forces in the

         14  territory of Serbia, because there were several

         15  collection points in Serbia, not just in Backa Palanka,

         16  in Apatin, Sombor and others.

         17            We learned all this from our intelligence

         18  sources that we had in that area. I cannot claim that

         19  any one of my people actually saw Slavko at any point.

         20       Q.   Now, what happened next in the course of

         21  these negotiations?

         22       A.   The definitive talks when we came to an

         23  agreement with General Arandelovic were held in Sid in

         24  the command of General Arandelovic.  Representatives of

         25  the town of Ilok, and the surrounding places Bapska,

Page 1323

          1  Sarnitca, Mohovo, Lovas and a part of Tovarnik,

          2  a delegation consisting of some fifteen members,

          3  accompanied by the Yugo army went to Sid where we were

          4  received by General Arandelovic together with his

          5  escort of officers, and we spent about five hours

          6  negotiating, regarding the evacuation of the entire

          7  population from the town of Ilok and the surrounding

          8  villages. We agreed on the details, we drew up an

          9  agreement, signed it, by both sides.

         10       Q.   And who was attending this meeting? Who

         11  attended this meeting at Sid?

         12       A.   Apart from General Arandelovic, there was

         13  Colonel Grahovac, Captain Petrovic, Major Mucalovic,

         14  Major Banic, Colonel Ostojic, public prosecutor of Sid,

         15  who was also the author of the agreement. We could not

         16  have much influence over of the agreement because it

         17  was dictated by the Yugo army and as it had dominant

         18  control over the whole region, and we were happy that

         19  they would let our people out, and guarantee their

         20  safety, the only thing we managed to achieve was that

         21  all members of the reserve of the Guards' Corps should

         22  be allowed to leave unhindered, and the police should

         23  be the guarantee of a peaceful departure from Ilok, and

         24  that it should provide security for the convoy of

         25  displaced persons with its weapons and all its material

Page 1324

          1  resources.

          2       Q.   Were there any discussions or agreements

          3  reached with respect to people being taken out, of the

          4  evacuations from Ilok?

          5       A.   There was a discussion, and it was agreed

          6  that the evacuation should begin exactly on the 17th of

          7  October at 8 o'clock from the bridge on the Danube

          8  River, by the town of Ilok.

          9       Q.   Now --

         10       A.   But, the Croatian forces should surrender

         11  their weapons and if we did not meet these conditions,

         12  the exodus could not begin.

         13       Q.   Now, going back to this large meeting that

         14  you had, this large meeting you had in Sid in early

         15  October 1991, you mentioned the members of the JNA who

         16  were present. Are you able to recall there being any

         17  other parties present at this delegation, on the

         18  Serbian side?

         19       A.   Colonel Milic Jovanovic was present. I did

         20  not mention him. He was head of the

         21  counter-intelligence service of the entire army in that

         22  area.

         23       Q.   Any civilian members present that you can

         24  recall? You mentioned the prosecutor, I think.

         25       A.   Public prosecutor of the municipality of Sid,

Page 1325

          1  but he was dressed in the uniform of a Yugoslav army

          2  captain.

          3       Q.   Can you think of anyone else at this stage?

          4       A.   No.

          5       Q.   Okay. Now, can you go on from there? You

          6  discussed the agreement. There was to be an evacuation

          7  on 17th October. What was the next thing that was to

          8  occur?

          9       A.   The Yugo army did not agree to this exodus,

         10  believing that the forces of Ilok, the joint forces of

         11  Ilok were talking the people into leaving, and at that

         12  point in time they asked for some kind of a guarantee

         13  from us as to why the people were leaving, and it was

         14  proposed by the civilian authorities in town to have

         15  a referendum carried out, who is in favour of

         16  a surrender and who is in favour of an exodus,

         17  a complete exodus from the town of Ilok, so around the

         18  13th we had a referendum and about 80 per cent were in

         19  favour of exodus and 70 per cent were against

         20  a surrender of arms and if the army would not allow us

         21  to retreat, then there would be full resistance against

         22  the aggressor, namely the Yugoslav army.

         23            After we carried out the referendum, through

         24  Colonel Grahovac we informed General Arandelovic about

         25  the outcome of the referendum, and he ordered the

Page 1326

          1  agreement to be carried out, to start with the exodus

          2  on the 17th.

          3            The Yugoslav officers at that time were

          4  trying to postpone the exodus for two or three days.

          5  Through the operative links that existed amongst the

          6  Yugoslav officers, we came to realise that a general

          7  all-out attack on Ilok was supposed to begin on

          8  Saturday morning at 5 o'clock. We urgently requested

          9  a full observance of the agreement made, and that

         10  regardless of all circumstances it begin at 8 o'clock

         11  in the morning of 17th October and to have the

         12  agreement honoured, and the agreement was honoured, but

         13  had we not got out then, had we stayed for another two

         14  or three days there would have been a terrible conflict

         15  and the entire population would have been destroyed in

         16  that area. That was the wish of the Yugoslav officers,

         17  of the Yugoslav army and of the paramilitary units that

         18  were together with the Yugoslav army.

         19       Q.   Now, moving forward to the day of the

         20  17th October 1991, was the evacuation -- did it get

         21  under way as planned?

         22       A.   Exactly at 8 o'clock I came with a truck full

         23  of weapons and explosives. Colonel Grahovac, when he

         24  was assured that the war booty was in the truck, he

         25  allowed the truck to cross over to Backa Palanka. I did

Page 1327

          1  not go to Backa Palanka. The driver of the truck and

          2  I remained with Grahovac together on the bridge. The

          3  booty was handed over to the headquarters of the

          4  Territorial Defence in Bagremar. They were not pleased

          5  with the booty because they thought that we had a lot

          6  more weapons, and high quality weapons at that.

          7            At one point in time Colonel Grahovac told me

          8  that I had fooled him as far as weapons were concerned,

          9  and he was wondering whether he should stop the exodus

         10  or not and I said, "Pero, we have to honour what has

         11  been agreed upon because General Kadijevic issued

         12  orders that the exodus would have to be observed

         13  because there was an agreement between the Croatian

         14  government and the general headquarters, the general

         15  staff".

         16            Then Colonel Petar Grahovac opened the bridge

         17  and the exodus started and women were on one side and

         18  men were separate from them, and they were fully

         19  searched at the other end of the bridge.

         20       Q.   Now, did you see any people from the Serbian

         21  side on the bridge there that you recognised, on the

         22  day of the exodus?

         23       A.   At the place where the exodus was taking

         24  place and where the people were being separated, all

         25  the officers of the Yugoslav army that I knew were

Page 1328

          1  present. Also, all the high officials of Backa Palanka

          2  were present, and among them I noticed Mr. Slavko

          3  Dokmanovic.

          4            On the bridge I did not talk to Mr. Dokmanovic

          5  because I was too busy with other affairs. This was

          6  a highly responsible task that I had to carry out then.

          7  Before my own eyes the Territorial Defence people and

          8  the Yugoslav officers were taking people out of the

          9  column, especially if they found a reason to get

         10  someone out, to snatch someone. For example, at one

         11  point, Colonel Ostojic said, "look up at the church.

         12  You have a machine-gun nest up there. Go up there and

         13  destroy it or I am going to go up and do something

         14  about it", and together with two officers I had to go

         15  to the church steeple and I had to do something about

         16  it. We climbed up there and we had to see whether there

         17  was a machine-gun nest or not. It took about two hours

         18  and then they told him, "no, there is nothing up

         19  there". And they took over 30 of my people from the

         20  column, innocent people at that. They were not even

         21  members of the ZNG, of the National Guards Corps or

         22  members of the ruling party.

         23       Q.   Now, so far as you were aware was this

         24  contrary to the agreement that had been concluded?

         25       A.   This was quite contrary to the agreement,

Page 1329

          1  because I was given personal guarantees by General

          2  Arandelovic that not a single person would be taken,

          3  regardless of whether they were guilty or not, because

          4  in the territory of Ilok lives of people of Serb

          5  nationality were not threatened and we were not

          6  torching houses of persons of Serb ethnicity. We took

          7  care of them and no one was harmed, no one was hurt,

          8  and no one's safety was endangered in Ilok and they had

          9  no reason to snatch people in, to take them to prison.

         10  This was genocide, and I think a dominant role had

         11  to be played by Mr. Dokmanovic. He was president of the

         12  municipality. He was the person who enjoyed a high

         13  reputation and he could have had some influences over

         14  the officers. He could have said, "do not take these

         15  people to prison". They behaved very arrogantly.

         16  Practically they were gloating over the fact that they

         17  were winning and they were snatching these people away

         18  from us.

         19       Q.   Now, what happened after that, after the

         20  people were taken away? Did the convoy go on?

         21       A.   The convoy continued, naturally, and people

         22  were moving out of Ilok. They were searched, they were

         23  taken to Backa Palanka, and I found out their names and

         24  surnames through Yugoslav officers whom I knew

         25  personally.  I managed to get some fifteen people out

Page 1330

          1  of prison, but all of those whose names and surnames

          2  I did not know, ended up in the camp at Begejci in

          3  Vojvodina.

          4       Q.   Now, what happened then? What was the next

          5  thing that happened?

          6       A.   At this very place, when people were taken

          7  out, they were practically grabbing, seizing all our

          8  things. People were driving vehicles that were

          9  socially-owned and the army would not allow them to

         10  drive these vehicles. These vehicles were seized and

         11  people were loaded onto trucks or tractors and they

         12  continued towards Sid.

         13            At one point I had a very unpleasant verbal

         14  duel with Mr. Grahovac. I told him, "if you cannot

         15  command your officers, then tie some dogs here". He had

         16  really irritated me, and then Mr. Tomic took out his

         17  pistol and he said, "Pero, kill this dog. How can you

         18  allow him to raise objections to you now?", and

         19  Grahovac did not pay much attention to this. He said,

         20  "Mate is right, because during that period of time

         21  they took one of my vehicles where my personal

         22  belongings were and where my personal weapons were and

         23  they took it to Backa Palanka", and then he was

         24  shouting at him. He said, "Ostojic, why did you allow

         25  this vehicle to be seized?"

Page 1331

          1       Q.   What happened then?

          2       A.   After that, the convoy continued all the way

          3  up to 5 pm when the last citizen who wished to leave

          4  left Ilok, and I left at 5.30 pm. It was already dark.

          5  There was some shooting around Ilok. This was the

          6  scenario of the Yugoslav army, as if somebody were

          7  attacking them, and that is when I managed to get the

          8  last soldier out. So I went between two lines of

          9  Yugoslav soldiers and paramilitary units and the

         10  paramilitaries pointed their rifles at me, and Banic

         11  and Mucalovic practically as if they wished to execute

         12  us, and they were saying, "you banmuc, you are just

         13  like the Ustasha Brletic. Once again, if you try to do

         14  something we are going to kill you all".

         15            Then Major Banic said to Major Grahovac, he

         16  said, "it seems that the paramilitary units have

         17  overtaken the command", and he said, "yes, it seems

         18  that the Chetniks are more important than we are".

         19            And then Mr. Grahovac advised me then. He

         20  said, "Mate, if you wish, come to our side, go to Novi

         21  Sad. You are going to get a four-room apartment and you

         22  are going to get rank of colonel", and I said, "where

         23  my people go that is where I go too, because I have to

         24  take them to free territory in Croatia". He only

         25  advised me, because I did not have an escort, to drive

Page 1332

          1  without lights on because he said -- it was dark -- and

          2  he said that I might be ambushed on the road, and

          3  I drove along the road without lights and I reached

          4  Principovac. I joined the convoy, and together with the

          5  convoy through Sid I came to Lipovac around 8 pm.

          6       Q.   Now, you mentioned seeing Mr. Slavko

          7  Dokmanovic on a number of occasions. How long had you

          8  known him for, prior to these events in 1991, when you

          9  saw him?

         10       A.   We did not know each other personally. We

         11  knew of each other, because he was active in sports. He

         12  was an engineer of agriculture. Often he would come to

         13  Ilok, and we would meet at various meetings, for

         14  example, at the ruling party meetings in then

         15  Yugoslavia, but we did not have any personal contact.

         16       Q.   And these business contacts that you had with

         17  Mr. Dokmanovic, and particularly the party meetings, how

         18  often would they occur? Are you able to say?

         19       A.   Well, they were a couple of times a year.

         20  These were the so-called municipal committees of all

         21  towns.

         22       Q.   Now, I will just ask if you can look around

         23  the courtroom and can you see Mr. Dokmanovic and if you

         24  can, can you point to him and describe where he is

         25  located in the court?

Page 1333

          1       A.   Yes. We know each other.

          2       Q.   And just describe where he is in the court

          3  for the record, if you would, please.

          4       A.   He is sitting at the last table next to the

          5  policeman.

          6            MR. NIEMANN:  No further questions, your

          7  Honour.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Mr. Fila?

          9                 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

         10       Q.   With the permission of your Honours,

         11  Mr. Brletic, you know that Mr. Dokmanovic was president

         12  of the municipal assembly of Vukovar. How long did he

         13  hold this post and how long was he in the territory of

         14  the municipality of Vukovar in 1991?

         15       A.   He was probably there until the person in

         16  charge was appointed by the government of the Republic

         17  of Croatia.

         18       Q.   And when was this? This was probably towards

         19  the end of July 1991?

         20       A.   Yes, July 1919.

         21       Q.   Does that mean that after that Slavko

         22  Dokmanovic was not president of the municipal assembly of

         23  Vukovar?

         24       A.   No. Then this person appointed by the

         25  government of Croatia took over, Mr. Bili.

Page 1334

          1       Q.   At the point in time that you saw him in

          2  connection with Ilok, was he president of the municipal

          3  assembly of Vukovar or not?

          4       A.   At that time he was not.

          5       Q.   While you were commander of Ilok, under the

          6  headquarters, were Serbs leaving Ilok?

          7       A.   While I was commander of the headquarters in

          8  Ilok they would leave only when they would hear about

          9  the attack of the Yugoslav army that was supposed to be

         10  staged or that would actually be staged, then they

         11  would flee to Backa Palanka after the attack or, if

         12  there was no attack, they would go back home.

         13       Q.   They did not feel jeopardised?

         14       A.   No.

         15       Q.   Did all Croats leave Ilok or did some remain

         16  or did some come back afterwards?

         17       A.   80 per cent of Croats left when the exodus

         18  took place. The majority of the population that

         19  remained were Slovaks and Serbs.

         20       Q.   Did some Croats come back afterwards?

         21       A.   I do not know about that. The Croats did not

         22  go back. Only those who left and who had relatives in

         23  Backa Palanka and in Novi Sad, perhaps they came back

         24  after the exodus, they came back to Ilok.

         25       Q.   As far as I understood you, in connection

Page 1335

          1  with these events around Ilok, if that is the right way

          2  to put it, you saw him twice.

          3       A.   That is right.

          4       Q.   Twice.

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   The first time was in Backa Palanka, as you

          7  said, and the second time when the exodus started. That

          8  is to say, not several times, but twice.

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   This second time, for how long did you see

         11  him, because you said that you went to the belfry to

         12  see whether it was -- whether there was a machine-gun

         13  nest and you were --

         14       A.   Well, this was nonsensical, but that is what

         15  the Yugoslav army asked about.

         16       Q.   How long did you get to see him and when?

         17       A.   I did not really pay much attention to that.

         18  Several times I glanced at all of them, because I could

         19  not really talk to them, because I was busy with other

         20  matters, concerning the people who were being searched.

         21  I had to be next to the Yugoslav officers who had the

         22  lists, so that they would not snatch my people away. I

         23  did not make personal contact.

         24       Q.   When you saw him, was it before your people

         25  were snatched or after the people were snatched,

Page 1336

          1  because you said that you had to go up to the church

          2  steeple, so how did you know where he was then?

          3       A.   Well, among all these people, I saw him two

          4  or three times.

          5       Q.   Was this before they had snatched your

          6  people?

          7       A.   They did not take these people all at once.

          8  Throughout the day they tried to take advantage of when

          9  I had to go to the town of Ilok or when I had to

         10  surrender the town of Ilok, or when I would go to the

         11  Slovak house to see whether something had happened.

         12  Then people were snatched. They were being snatched all

         13  the time. Not all at once.

         14       Q.   If I understood you correctly, throughout the

         15  negotiations concerning Ilok, did you not see

         16  Dokmanovic as an official participant in the

         17  negotiations?

         18       A.   No. I only saw him in Backa Palanka and then

         19  in Ilok on the 17th.

         20       Q.   But not during negotiations?

         21       A.   No, not during negotiations.

         22       Q.   On the basis of what are you claiming that he

         23  had some kind of authority among the JNA when you said

         24  yourself that he was not president of the municipal

         25  assembly of Vukovar?

Page 1337

          1       A.   When he was president of the municipality of

          2  Vukovar, things were getting more complicated, and

          3  I think that he knew the people from the Yugoslav army

          4  well. He knew the officers, he knew Mr. Ljubo Novakovic,

          5  he certainly knew Mr. Kertes because this was his

          6  terrain and before also the presidents of the

          7  municipalities had cooperated.

          8       Q.   If I may say so, you are simply drawing the

          9  conclusion that he must have known them?

         10       A.   That is right.

         11       Q.   But you do not have immediate knowledge of

         12  the fact that he knew them.

         13       A.   That is right.

         14       Q.   Your intelligence service, in the territory

         15  of Serbia, and in the other case, you called them spies

         16  and here you are talking about intelligence service.

         17  Did your intelligence people tell you about some kind

         18  of anti-Croat role, if that is what I may call it, of

         19  Mr. Dokmanovic?

         20       A.   No. I did not receive any kind of information

         21  of that sort, that they had noticed him in that area.

         22       Q.   While he was president of the municipal

         23  assembly, did he perhaps invite the army to help the

         24  police in Borovo Selo, when those people were killed

         25  with an ambush?

Page 1338

          1       A.   I am not familiar with that.

          2       Q.   Did you notice some kind of extremist

          3  functions of his, or some kind of speeches that were

          4  extremist when he held a post, and what list was he

          5  elected on? How was he elected?

          6       A.   He was on the SDP list.

          7       Q.   Are those extremists?

          8       A.   No.

          9       Q.   You said that you had the impression that the

         10  JNA wanted to break up Ilok, to destroy Ilok, I mean.

         11       A.   It is not that I had the impression, but

         12  I was fully convinced of that, knowing the officers of

         13  the Yugoslav army, and the paramilitary units.

         14  I exactly came to that conclusion. I was convinced that

         15  that is what they wished to do.

         16       Q.   Did somebody have some influence over them or

         17  did they have their own chain of command, the JNA?

         18       A.   They made decisions according to their own

         19  chain of command, and their own responsibility.

         20            Mr. Fila, can I tell you, at one point in

         21  time, General Arandelovic told me personally, "if you

         22  do not surrender weapons with all the arms from

         23  tanks -- all the arms you have, I am going to use tanks

         24  and Howitzers and aircraft and I am going to level Ilok

         25  to the ground", and I said, "Mr. General, you have one

Page 1339

          1  daughter. If she is there, would you shoot then?".  He

          2  said, "yes, I would. I am a general and I carry out

          3  orders of the general staff. Yes".

          4       Q.   Did civilian authorities have some kind of

          5  influence over them, for example, the former president

          6  of the municipal assembly of Vukovar, orders

          7  Arandelovic, "do not shoot at them". Come on sir, we

          8  grew up in the same country, and you know what the JNA

          9  is.

         10       A.   Yes, I do.

         11       Q.   So please will you answer.

         12       A.   The civilian authorities could have had

         13  influence over officers and the higher command,

         14  regardless.  There is an area where a person with

         15  a high reputation can, if he or she wishes to do so,

         16  prevent an attack because it is not that we invited the

         17  Yugo army to surround Ilok, and to carry out war

         18  assignments in that area. It was individuals who did

         19  that. You were sitting there in Belgrade, so you do not

         20  know about all the things that were happening in that

         21  area, but afterwards when the Yugo army would pass

         22  through the area, then paramilitary forces would come

         23  and they committed major atrocities, crimes in that

         24  area, and we are all disassociating ourselves from

         25  that, but the president of Yugoslavia is not immune

Page 1340

          1  against that. He is probably involved in all of that,

          2  and he must have found out that crimes were being

          3  committed and he should have issued orders to the

          4  generals, because it is the president of Republic who

          5  is the commander in chief, not the general staff.

          6       Q.   And who was the president of the SFRY at that

          7  time when this was happening?

          8       A.   At that time there was a presidency.

          9       Q.   And who was president of the presidency?

         10       A.   Probably Stipe Mesic.

         11       Q.   Do not say "probably"; you know for sure?

         12       A.   Stipe Mesic.

         13       Q.   Was Stipe Mesic a Serb?

         14       A.   No, he was a Croat.

         15       Q.   All right, so the Croat, Stipe Mesic, could

         16  have ordered the Yugo army not to attack.

         17       A.   Stipe Mesic did order that but he did not

         18  have the influence over the Yugo army. He ordered them

         19  not to but they did. Did you ever see that?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   Kadijevic is also a Croat.

         22       A.   No, he is not.

         23       Q.   No?

         24       A.   No. His mother is Croat and his father is

         25  a Serb.

Page 1341

          1       Q.   All right. Who was Prime Minister of the

          2  SFRY, then?

          3       A.   Anto Markovic.

          4       Q.   Also a Croat, I hope.

          5       A.   For sure.

          6       Q.   So, for sure, and how come he was Prime

          7  Minister of Yugoslavia and how come the president of

          8  the SFRY did not order the army not to attack Ilok and

          9  Slavko Dokmanovic was supposed to tell them not to

         10  attack Ilok?

         11       A.   Why are you asking me that when you know very

         12  well who ordered it and who had influence over the

         13  Yugoslav army?

         14       Q.   Was it Slavko Dokmanovic?

         15       A.   No.

         16       Q.   Well, that is what I am asking you.

         17       A.   But he could have been one of the

         18  protagonists.

         19            MR. FILA:  He could have been. That is another

         20  question, but, you know, every word you say is

         21  important here. You know that the poet Milkovic said,

         22  "it was one strong word that killed me". Remember

         23  that? Your generation?

         24            Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:  Mr. Niemann, would you like to

Page 1342

          1  re-examine?

          2                 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

          3            MR. NIEMANN:  Mr. Brletic, when you said you

          4  know who was responsible for this, who were you

          5  referring to?

          6       A.   Well, I was thinking of the highest officials

          7  in the army, and the highest officials in the Republic

          8  of Serbia.

          9       Q.   And who was that? The highest in the Republic

         10  of Serbia?

         11       A.   I think General Kadijevic is responsible who

         12  was at the top of the army leadership, then, as

         13  a responsible official in the Republic of Serbia,

         14  Mr. Milosevic and others.

         15            MR. NIEMANN:  No further questions, your

         16  Honour.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. I have two

         18  questions. You said that the first time you met

         19  Mr. Dokmanovic -- after the outbreak of hostilities, of

         20  course -- was on 26th September 1991, and this was at

         21  Backa Palanka, and in response to a question from the

         22  Prosecutor you said that you do not -- did not -- you

         23  do not remember how he was dressed. Do you remember

         24  whether Mr. Dokmanovic played any role in the

         25  discussions or negotiations which took place on that

Page 1343

          1  day, on the 26th September? Did he speak in that

          2  meeting? This is my first question.

          3       A.   No.

          4            JUDGE CASSESE:  So he kept silent. He was

          5  silent during the discussion?

          6       A.   He was talking to a group of people over

          7  there. He did not participate in my negotiations with

          8  Mr. Grahovac.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. And what was his

         10  relationship to Colonel Grahovac who was there? Was he

         11  talking to him? Was he next to him? Do you think that

         12  he was --

         13       A.   No, he was standing to the side.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Now, we move on to

         15  the 17th October when you saw him at a different place

         16  at Ilok, and if I understood you correctly, you said

         17  you saw him on the bridge.

         18       A.   Yes.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:  Could you tell us what he was

         20  doing on the bridge?

         21       A.   He was an observer like the rest, watching

         22  what was happening with the exodus.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:  Was he talking to those

         24  people who crossed the bridge?

         25       A.   No. He was talking to colleagues from Backa

Page 1344

          1  Palanka and the other officers, and members, Serb

          2  inhabitants of Ilok who were there.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. Was he wearing

          4  an uniform?

          5       A.   I do not remember.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Thank you. That is all. Is

          7  there any objection to the witness being released? No

          8  objection? Thank you so much for coming. You may now be

          9  released.

         10            Mr. Niemann, I assume there are no other

         11  witnesses?

         12            MR. NIEMANN:  Witness A will be available this

         13  afternoon, I understood, your Honour. After the

         14  lunchbreak.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:  Would it be better for him to

         16  come here tomorrow, because of his illness, or --

         17            MR. NIEMANN:  I might ask Mr. Williamson to

         18  address you, your Honours, because he has been dealing

         19  with him directly. I am not familiar with his exact

         20  condition.

         21            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Your Honour, he had indicated

         22  that he could go forward this afternoon, or tomorrow,

         23  so it is really the preference of the court.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:  Yes. Maybe it would be better

         25  for him to come here tomorrow, so because, in any case,

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          1  there is another witness we are going to call tomorrow,

          2  you are going to call tomorrow, so --

          3            MR. WILLIAMSON:  Very well, your Honour,

          4  I will communicate that to him and I am sure there will

          5  be no problem.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:  Therefore we will stand now

          7  in recess and we will meet again tomorrow at 9.15

          8  sharp. Thank you.

          9            (12.30 pm)

         10      (Hearing adjourned until 9.15 tomorrow morning)