1 DAY 11 Tuesday, 11th February 1998
2 (9.15 am)
3 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the
4 Registrar to call the case number?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a-T, the
6 Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.
7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask the
8 Prosecution for the appearances, please?
9 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name
10 is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,
11 Mr. Williamson, Mr. Waespi, Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Vos on
12 the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
14 MR. FILA: Your Honour, my name is Toma Fila
15 and together with Ms. Lopicic and Mr. Petrovic I am
16 defending Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear
18 me? Thank you. Thank you.
19 Before we start, I would like to express the
20 gratitude of the bench to the Prosecution for filing
21 yesterday two additional legal briefs which will prove,
22 I am sure, very helpful. We would be much obliged to
23 the Prosecution if we could also be handed in the legal
24 authorities supporting their legal briefs. I wonder
25 whether it is complicated. It is just a way of helping
1 the court, and of course it will be for Mr. Fila to
2 decide whether to address these two issues, namely
3 international versus internal armed conflict and the
4 question of accumulation of charges in his opening
5 statement or in additional briefs, but in any case,
6 again, we would be grateful to him if at some point in
7 time he would be so kind as to hand in the legal
8 authorities supporting his views on this matter.
9 All right. I wonder whether... no? Yes?
10 Mr. Williamson?
11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour. Witness A,
12 the witness that we have intended to call for the last
13 day or so, is still quite ill, and in fact had to
14 return to the doctor last night after coughing up
15 blood. He is here. He is running quite a high fever,
16 and is really in no condition to testify. I spoke with
17 Mr. Fila beforehand, and he kindly agreed that if the
18 witness would come in we can identify his statement,
19 and introduce that and then we would seek to introduce
20 his testimony from the Rule 61 hearing and then allow
21 him to leave, if your Honours are agreeable with that.
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So then you are
23 referring both to the written statement and the Rule 61
25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir.
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I wonder whether Mr. Fila
2 agrees, or would you like to cross-examine, not today,
3 probably, because in this case we could maybe ask the
4 witness to come back in March.
5 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have no intention to
6 cross-examine him at all. He is not speaking of my
7 defendant at all, because it is better to have a court
8 official go and see him rather than have a sick man
9 testify over here, so why does not the official go
10 there and identify him and that is fine with me.
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, your Honour. At
13 this time if we can just have him brought in we will
14 have him identify the statement and very quickly deal
15 with this matter.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just while we have
18 a moment, when the witness is being brought in, your
19 Honours, we filed yesterday -- I see the witness.
20 I will raise it later.
21 (The witness entered court)
22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
23 Could you please stand and make the solemn
25 WITNESS A (sworn)
1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
2 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON
3 Q. Sir, I would like for you to examine this
4 piece of paper, please, and, sir, at this time I am
5 going to hand you a small piece of paper and if you can
6 look at this and tell me if that is your name indicated
7 on this sheet of paper, yes or no.
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would seek to
10 tender this as Prosecutor's exhibit...
11 THE REGISTRAR: 78.
12 MR. WILLIAMSON: 78. Thank you. And this would
13 be tendered under seal.
14 Sir, while you are in court today I will be
15 referring to you as, "Witness A". Do you understand
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In August 1995 do you recall meeting with
19 Mr. Vladimir Dzuro, an investigator from the Tribunal
20 Office of the Prosecutor and myself?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And at that time did you give a statement
23 which was taken down in the English language?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that statement subsequently read back to
1 you by an interpreter into the Croatian language?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you, in fact, sign that statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would like to
6 show the witness a document that we are marking as
7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 79, and a Croatian translation of
8 that document which will be marked as Prosecutor's
9 Exhibit 79A.
10 Looking at the document that we have marked
11 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79, do you see your signature
12 on that document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you indicate that this was your --
15 that this statement was true and correct to the best of
16 your knowledge?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would tender
19 that as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79, and 79A, the Croatian
20 translation, both under seal.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection, Mr. Fila? Thank
23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Witness A, do you recall
24 coming to this court in March of 1996 and testifying in
25 a proceeding which is known as a Rule 61 hearing?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. I have no further
3 questions, your Honour.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right, so
5 I see that there is no objection to the witness being
7 Witness A, I would like on behalf of the
8 court to express to you our gratitude for coming here
9 and I am so sorry that you are not well and I hope that
10 you will soon recover. You may now be released.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (The witness withdrew)
13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, at this time
14 I would seek to introduce the testimony from the
15 Rule 61 hearing as Prosecutor's Exhibit 80.
16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?
17 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. The
18 Prosecution calls Petr Kypr.
19 (The witness entered court)
20 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you
21 to make the solemn declaration?
22 PETR KYPR (sworn)
23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.
24 Mr. Niemann?
25 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
1 Q. Sir, is your full name Petr Kypr?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you recall on 15th March 1996 being
4 interviewed by an investigator from the Office of the
5 Prosecutor of the Tribunal, Mr. Vladimir Dzuro?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. During the course of that -- was that
8 interview recorded in the Czech language with you?
9 A. Yes, the original was written in Czech.
10 Q. And did you sign the original in the Czech
12 A. Yes, I did sign all the pages of this
13 document in Czech.
14 Q. And are you aware of the fact that it has
15 subsequently been translated into the English language
16 and into the Croatian language?
17 A. Yes, and I have seen the English version. And
18 in the English version, if I may add, I found one
19 mistake on page 6, and I would like you now to correct
21 MR. NIEMANN: Well, we will come to that in
22 a moment. Firstly, I would like to show you these
23 exhibits, these documents, and could they be marked
24 with the Prosecution number next in order and then A
25 and B, A for the English version, B for the Croatian
1 version, the original exhibit being in the Czech
3 THE REGISTRAR: 81, 81A and 81B.
4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Mr. Kypr, I am just
5 asking you, if you would, look at the
6 statement in the Czech language and tell me if you see
7 your signature appearing at the foot of each page of
8 that document.
9 A. Yes, I agree this is the copy of the original
11 Q. And now, you were telling us a moment ago
12 that you -- in the English version -- you found a small
13 error that you would like to correct. Perhaps before we
14 move onto that, I understand that you speak English. Is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes, I understand English, I can speak some
17 English but I was recommended to use the
18 interpreter here in the courtroom.
19 Q. Yes. I am only asking you that for the
20 purposes -- that you can point in the English
21 translation to the error. So perhaps you might take us
22 there. Page 6, and where is the error?
23 A. It is page 6, as I said, the first paragraph.
24 It is the sixth line from the bottom, "Dr. Bosanac", and
25 there in the brackets we have, "(who)" -- sorry, no,
1 there is a wrong translation in Serbian. Behind the
2 word, "Bosanac", we have something added, and what has
3 been added here is the beginning of the bracket, and
4 then the word, "who".
5 MR. NIEMANN: So, just to cover that, it is
6 the sixth line on the first paragraph, page 6, after
7 the highlighted word, "Bosanac", there appears
8 a bracket and the word, "who", and you are saying that
9 neither the bracket nor the word, "who", should appear
10 there and should be deleted to make a better
11 understanding of the sentence.
12 Thank you. I tender those statements, your
14 A. Yes. Now it is okay and as far as I know in
15 the Serbian transcription the text is also correct.
16 Q. Mr. Kypr, in 1991 were you appointed a Monitor
17 for the European Community?
18 A. Yes. This was in the late summer, at the
19 end of August 1991.
20 Q. And after your appointment, where did you
21 take up position? Where did you take up your duty as
22 a Monitor?
23 A. First I was in Zagreb where I worked in
24 different positions. I was stationed in Slovenia and
25 Dalmatia and Gosbitzedal.
1 Q. And what position did you hold as an European
3 A. I was appointed by the Czech government, the head
4 of the Czech delegation in the mission.
5 Q. And what position did you have in the
7 A. In Zagreb, because I speak Serbo-Croatian,
8 I was in the team of the interpreters.
9 Q. And what about when you went to Belgrade?
10 What position did you hold there?
11 A. The mission soon realised that it was also
12 important to set up regional centres, that is in
13 Belgrade --
14 Q. Now, and what position did you have in
16 A. -- and I was sent to Belgrade as the
17 representative of the Head of the Belgrade centre, as
18 the deputy.
19 Q. Now, as -- in your role as deputy head of
20 mission in Belgrade, were you exposed to a number of
21 documents that were documents of the ECMM and documents
22 that the ECMM received from various parties?
23 A. Yes. This was my duty, because (a) I could
24 speak both English and Serbo-Croat, and (b) I was
25 also the deputy head of the mission. In other words,
1 I was a member of the mission, that is the one of the
2 team consisting of Mr. Perrin, myself, and the head of the
4 Q. In late September, early October of 1991 did
5 you receive a directive to have regard to what was
6 occurring in Ilok, in Croatia?
7 A. Yes. We got instructions from Zagreb -- I am
8 sorry, could you please turn up the volume on my
10 Yes, we got instructions from the Zagreb
11 centre to send a team to Ilok.
12 Q. And was a team subsequently sent to Ilok?
13 A. Yes. One member of the team was sent to Ilok
14 and I was not in that team.
15 Q. Now, did you then subsequently go to Ilok
17 A. Yes. I went to Ilok. I believe this was on the
19 Q. And how did you get to Ilok? Can you describe
20 to the court the procedures you went through and the
21 course that you took to arrive at Ilok?
22 A. The standard procedure for all these trips or
23 travels of Monitors' teams to the front-line from
24 Belgrade was as follows: we had a vehicle for Monitors
25 and it was accompanied by another vehicle of the
1 liaison officer of the Yugoslav national army.
2 Q. And with the assistance of the Yugoslav
3 People's Army or national army, how far did you go? Did
4 you go all the way into Ilok or did you go only part of
5 the way?
6 A. No, we had to cover roughly
7 130 kilometres. It took us three hours, and we had to
8 stop before the bridge to Ilok.
9 Q. Now, where is this bridge?
10 A. While the liaison officer had to establish
11 contact with the local command of the Yugoslav national
12 army to let us cross the bridge.
13 Q. And where is the bridge? In what town was
14 this bridge?
15 A. This is the bridge between Backa Palanka,
16 which is on the Serbian side, and Ilok which is on the
17 Croatian side of the Danube.
18 Q. And did you, after contact was made with
19 Ilok, did you then subsequently go into Ilok?
20 A. Yes. We went into Ilok.
21 Q. Now, what happened when you got into Ilok?
22 A. We talked to the representatives of that town
23 who described the situation.
24 Q. And what happened after that?
25 A. Then they informed us that the Yugoslav army
1 demanded that they surrender their weapons.
2 Q. And did they speak to you about plans for
3 evacuation of the people of Ilok?
4 A. Yes. They told us that they were considering
5 evacuation --
6 Q. And what did they ask --
7 A. -- but that it had not been decided whether
8 there would be a referendum on this in town.
9 Q. Did they show you any documentation, in
10 relation to discussions that they had had?
11 A. Yes. We had been shown the proposal submitted
12 by the Yugoslav national army.
13 Q. And did you read this proposal?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 MR. NIEMANN: I ask you to look at this
16 document that I now show you, one being in the Croat
17 language, Serbo-Croat language, one being in
18 English. Perhaps it might be marked the next
19 Prosecution exhibit in order, and the English version
20 of it be given the letter A.
21 Do you recognise the documents which you are
22 now being shown? I have a copy there for the Defence, and the
23 judges, apparently. There is only one page.
24 A. Yes. The Serb version does correspond to
25 what I recollect. I have not looked at the English
2 Q. No. I am just talking about the version that
3 you were handed.
4 When you saw this document, what were the
5 most significant features of it, so far as you were
7 A. This was an obvious offer to take over
8 control of the town. This corresponds to item 6,
9 accompanied by certain sanctions in case of problems
10 arising. That is item 7.
11 Q. Now, what role, if any, was the ECMM to play
12 in the course of this evacuation, so far as you were
14 A. The European Union Mission had very limited
15 possibilities, given in the memorandum of
16 understanding, and these meant that we were allowed to
17 monitor the situation and only on restricted
18 territory, that is on the territory of Croatia, not of
19 Serbia. We were also allowed to communicate between the
20 two parties and to help achieve an armistice and also
21 possibly to try to prevent bloodshed.
22 Q. Do you recall at this time the name or names
23 of any of the JNA personnel that you had dealings with
24 during the course of these discussions?
25 A. If I remember correctly, the local
1 commander was Colonel Grahovac.
2 Q. Now, in addition to the JNA, were there any
3 other parties on the Serb side with whom you had
4 dealings in connection with this matter?
5 A. I cannot recall talking to any civilians
6 about this question.
7 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that
8 there was discussion about a referendum in Ilok about
9 this so-called evacuation. Were you aware of whether or
10 not such a referendum was held?
11 A. Yes. We were there on the 12th and we were
12 told that on the 13th there would be this referendum,
13 and if I remember it correctly, our team arrived there
14 on the 14th.
15 Q. And do you know the outcome of the
17 A. Yes. We were informed by the municipality at
18 Ilok about the results of the referendum.
19 Q. And do you recall what the outcome of the
20 referendum was? I am not asking for specific details,
21 but do you recall what the outcome of the referendum
23 A. Yes. Unanimously -- there were two questions
24 asked under the referendum. One question was whether,
25 due to the crisis situation, they should leave the
1 town, and the other question asked in the referendum
2 was whether they should surrender all the weapons and
3 sign a treaty with the Yugoslav national army.
4 Q. When was the evacuation to take place,
5 planned to take place, of Ilok?
6 A. There is one thing I should like to add, and
7 that is we had been informed about the outcome, so the
8 result concerning the first question about the
9 evacuation, it was decided that the majority of the
10 citizens of Ilok wanted to be evacuated, wanted to
11 leave, but at the same time, as for the second
12 question, they did not want to surrender their weapons.
13 Q. Now, when was this evacuation scheduled to
14 take place?
15 A. I cannot remember. I think it was to be on
16 the 17th.
17 Q. And did you attend the evacuation yourself?
18 A. No. That day I had to leave in the morning.
19 I had to leave for Belgrade, for Belgrade, and that is
20 why I saw only the very beginning of forming the
21 evacuation column, and it was a very sad picture.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Now, might the witness be shown
23 Exhibit P5 for a moment, please?
24 Looking for me at that document, do you
25 recognise that?
1 A. Yes, I do, or rather I recognise this
2 document in its Serb version.
3 Q. That is right, yes. Now, when did you see
4 that document that you -- Exhibit P5?
5 A. If I remember it correctly, this was on the
6 14th October. When we arrived at Ilok, the
7 municipality informed us that it had to respect the
8 results of the referendum and to arrange for the
9 evacuation with the Yugoslav national army.
10 Q. Now, you will see, I think, that article 3 of
11 that document refers to 17th October 1991.
12 A. Yes, but this was when the mines were being
13 removed from the surroundings of Ilok.
14 Q. And article 8 makes mention that after that,
15 on 17th October, the convoy will depart.
16 A. Yes. That is so.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Apart from -- perhaps that
18 exhibit can be returned to the Registrar -- apart from
19 inspecting Ilok itself, were you requested to also
20 inspect surrounding villages and other places around
22 A. The situation at Ilok and in its surroundings
23 was very dramatic because Ilok was at the very apex of
24 the triangle which, in fact, was under siege by the
25 Yugoslav national army and at Ilok at the same time
1 there were a number of refugees from villages
2 surrounding Ilok, including some people from Vukovar,
3 and also from villages like Opatovac, Lovas, Sarengrad,
4 Bapska and I cannot remember the names of any others.
5 Q. On 16th October 1991 did you have occasion to
6 visit the village of Lovas?
7 A. Yes. We visited a number of villages
8 surrounding this town, and one of them was also Lovas.
9 Q. Now, at this time when you went to Lovas, had
10 it been conquered or taken over?
11 A. Yes. The village was taken over, had been
12 taken over, and we were told this by Serb
14 Q. And you were told that the village had been
15 taken by Serb volunteers. Is that what you mean?
16 A. Yes. A representative of that village had
17 told us so.
18 Q. Now, when you went to the village, did you
19 meet with the local commander of the volunteers?
20 A. Yes. We were received in the presence of some
21 ten other citizens of that village.
22 Q. Now, the local military commander that you
23 met, he was a Serb, was he, so far as you know?
24 A. Yes, at least he said so.
25 Q. Now, in addition to being the local military
1 commander, did he claim to have any other title?
2 A. If I remember correctly, he told us that
3 the village is now in the command of five people, and
4 he is the head of the team.
5 Q. Did he say what his position was, if you can
7 A. I think if I remember it correctly, he said
8 he was the military commander and he also said he was
9 a -- what would be a mayor.
10 Q. The mayor of the town. Did he say to you why
11 it was necessary that Lovas was attacked?
12 A. He explained to us that the attack was
13 necessary because in the village there was a Serb
14 minority that was being threatened by the Croat
16 Q. Did he speak of the need to change the ethnic
17 balance in the town?
18 A. If I remember correctly, he did.
19 Q. Can you tell us, elaborate just a little bit
20 more on that. What did he say?
21 A. This was rather surprising, because he was
22 saying that it was essential that Serb people were
23 moved into the village from other areas, and to change
24 the structure that is unnatural because there was this
25 majority of Croats, but honestly, I do not know
1 whether I remember this correctly because we are
2 talking about a time seven years ago.
3 Q. Did he say whether the JNA had played any
4 role in the taking of Lovas?
5 A. No, and this again surprised us, because he
6 said that he had invested money in equipment, that he
7 had provided equipment for the unit that had liberated
8 the village, that he had invested I cannot remember how
9 many Deutschmarks. I honestly cannot remember how
11 Q. From the observations you made in this
12 region, and having regard to the attacks on the various
13 villages that you witnessed, did you form any view as
14 to the approach that was being taken by the forces on
15 the Serb side in relation to the military tactics of
16 both the JNA, the volunteers and the paramilitaries?
17 A. What was interesting, perhaps, was that the
18 Yugoslav army rather held positions in the area where
19 these villages were located and there were groups that
20 we referred to as, "paramilitary groups", at that time.
21 Q. Yes, and what did the paramilitary groups do?
22 A. Could I get the Serb translation, please?
23 The last question has not been translated into Serbian:
24 please repeat once more.
25 Q. What role did the paramilitary groups play,
1 so far as you were able to observe?
2 A. These were the forces of the first attack,
3 but this is a matter of what we were told, in fact,
4 because in view of the rules under which we operated,
5 we were never in the areas where paramilitary
6 operations were proceeding.
7 Q. Now, did you subsequently become involved in
8 the evacuation of the town or city of Vukovar itself?
9 A. Yes, because the fall of the city was
10 being expected, and it was important to ensure
11 humanitarian operations.
12 Q. What time are we talking about? What month
13 and date are we talking about now, when you say that
14 the fall of the town was expected?
15 A. We are talking roughly about one month after
16 the events at Ilok. In other words, we are talking
17 about the period between 15th November and onwards.
18 Q. Now, how did you become aware of the
19 necessity for the ECMM to become involved in this
21 A. This was a common procedure adopted by the
22 European Union Mission, when our teams, to provide for
23 the crossings of the frontiers for, let us say
24 delegations from the two parties or for the humanitarian
25 convoys of the two parties...
1 Q. Mr. Kypr, you can speak normally. The
2 translation will keep up with you fairly well. If you
3 are moving too fast, they will tell us. You can just
4 speak normally. You do not need to stop to allow the --
5 and do not be concerned about what is happening on the
6 television screen in front of you. You do not have to
7 keep pace with that.
8 A. All right. The European Mission was to
9 provide for the transfer of convoys, in other words, by
10 keeping the mandate. It had, in other words -- we were
11 making sure that the rules of a cease-fire were being
13 A typical example was at Vukovar where the
14 European Mission in fact was involved in providing
15 conditions for a number of convoys that were leaving
16 Vukovar because there were not only the two convoys
17 from the Vukovar hospital, but there were also other
18 convoys. Citizens of Vukovar, and each of these columns
19 in fact was accompanied by one or more teams from the
21 Q. And where was the -- you mentioned the
22 hospital, as a point of evacuation in Vukovar. Were
23 there any other areas in Vukovar where evacuations were
24 to take place from, so far as you knew?
25 A. If I remember this correctly, yes, that there
1 were teams from Belgrade who were involved in providing
2 conditions for the evacuation from the centre for
3 refugees that were in the upper part of Vukovar.
4 I cannot remember correctly, but I think it was called
5 Velepromet, the place was called Velepromet.
6 Q. And with respect to the evacuation from the
7 hospital in particular, were you aware of whether or
8 not this was to be based on an agreement entered into
9 between the parties?
10 A. Yes. First of all, orally and then also in
11 a fax we were informed about the contents of the
12 agreement between the Yugoslav national army and the
13 Croat representatives concerning the course of the
15 Q. And was the fax sent to you from Zagreb?
16 A. If I remember this correctly, the first piece
17 of information they got by telephone and then this was
18 followed by the fax.
19 Q. And in addition to a message that you
20 received in -- a facsimile message that you received,
21 did you also receive a copy of an agreement that had
22 been concluded between the parties on the 18th November
23 in Zagreb?
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 MR. NIEMANN: I will show you the document.
1 Would you now look at this document for me, please?
2 There is a copy for the Defence, a copy for their
3 Honours and one to become an exhibit. Perhaps it might
4 be given the next exhibit number in order.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Number 83.
6 MR. NIEMANN: For the record, your Honours,
7 the attached agreement is Exhibit P9 to this document.
8 Mr. Kypr, do you recognise that as the
9 facsimile message that you have been referring to?
10 A. Yes, I do. It is the material.
11 Q. Now, just looking at the message itself, do
12 you know -- this message was sent from Zagreb to your
13 office in Belgrade; is that right?
14 A. Yes, this is right.
15 Q. Does it say there, and perhaps you might take
16 us to it, the date and time that the evacuation from
17 the hospital was to occur?
18 A. It is under article 1, where it says that
19 they met on the 18th of November. In the Serb
20 translation it is mentioned that it was the Yugoslav
21 national army and the Croatian, not us as the mission.
22 That was not correctly translated.
23 Q. You say, "Serbian". I think this is only in
24 English, is it not?
25 A. I am referring to the Serb translation
1 that I was getting through the headset.
2 Q. Oh. Yes. I am asking you to go to the message
3 itself, not the agreement. The message itself. I am
4 asking you there, can you point out, if you look at the
5 second paragraph, number 2, does that say when the
6 evacuation would take place?
7 A. No, it does not. At least I cannot see it.
8 I cannot see any date here or any minute mentioned,
9 because this was a question of hours.
10 Q. Mr. Kypr, would you please look at the
11 message, not the agreement itself.
12 A. You are not speaking about message. Sorry.
13 Sorry, you were referring to the message. I see now. It
14 says that, under article 1, that the evacuation of the
15 hospital at Vukovar should start -- should take place on
16 the 20th November.
17 Q. And in paragraph 2 the reference on that, to
18 paragraph 2, 20th, at 8 o'clock in the morning. Is that
20 A. And also we have the hour here, 0800 hours.
21 That is the military record from the American
23 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour.
24 Now, I tender that. Perhaps that might be
25 handed back to the Registrar.
1 Mr. Kypr, what role was the ECMM to play in
2 this evacuation, so far as you knew?
3 A. As I have already stated, the role was to
4 monitor the armistice rules and also all the agreements
5 that we have also seen in the annex of the document
6 that I had submitted.
7 Q. When did you arrive at Vukovar?
8 A. It depends on where in Vukovar, because as
9 for the upper part of Vukovar there we arrived at
10 roughly 8 o'clock, if I have remember correctly. Then
11 we had a very short briefing.
12 Q. And who gave you this briefing?
13 A. And then, together with the convoy, we went
14 down to the lower part of Vukovar.
15 The briefing, again if I remember it
16 correctly, was given by one of the representatives of
17 the Yugoslav national army, I believe it was Major
18 Sljivancanin. I think it was Major Sljivancanin.
19 I cannot remember any other name or any other person.
20 Q. And where did the briefing take place in
21 Vukovar? Was it at the hospital or was it in the middle
22 of the town, or...
23 A. No, this was in the upper part of the town of
24 Vukovar. Perhaps it might have been even in the village
25 on the outskirts, Negoslavci. It was either in the
1 upper part of the town of Vukovar or in one of the
2 neighbouring villages but it was definitely in the
3 upper part that had been under the Serb forces for
4 some time then.
5 Q. Now, this was 8 o'clock in the morning on the
6 18th November -- sorry, on 20th November.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what were you told at this briefing?
9 A. We were told that it would be made possible
10 for us to take part in the evacuation of the hospital.
11 Q. What happened next? Where did you go from
13 A. (Translation not received)... Followed by the
14 vehicle of the Red Cross. First it was the military
15 command that was followed by the International Red
16 Cross then we had the liaison officer's vehicle,
17 followed by the European Mission's vehicle, followed by
18 some other vehicles, and these were transporters
19 provided by the Yugoslav army. The whole convoy then
20 proceeded to the lower part of Vukovar.
21 Q. And when you got to the lower part of
22 Vukovar, what happened then?
23 A. There we stopped before the bridge over the
24 Vuka River, and we were told that we could not cross,
25 that we could not proceed.
1 Q. Who told you this?
2 A. We were told by Major Sljivancanin.
3 Q. And did he tell you why you could not
5 A. Yes. We were told that there were mines and
6 that they were currently removing the mines.
7 Q. And were you able to see the hospital from
8 this point?
9 A. No, we were not, because in front of us there
10 was some military vehicles, and if I remember the
11 situation in the town well, the hospital had some other
12 buildings in front of it, so we were not able to see
13 the hospital.
14 Q. Were you at the time concerned about this
16 A. Yes, but we were used to it because this
17 was a standard procedure. We would be told that there
18 are certain places that we could not access for security
19 reasons, and again, following the rules of the European
20 Union, we had to respect this.
21 Q. How long were you held up at this bridge over
22 the Vuka River?
23 A. For about two hours, until 10.30, quarter to
25 Q. At about 10.30, 10.45, what did you do then?
1 A. Then we were allowed to proceed and we
2 arrived at the hospital.
3 Q. Did Major Sljivancanin or somebody else from
4 the JNA tell you that the road had now been cleared?
5 A. I do not remember who it was who told us. It
6 was just that the columns started moving. I cannot
7 remember. I do not know.
8 Q. Now, when you reached the hospital, what did
9 you discover?
10 A. First we saw the situation in the hospital.
11 Q. What did you see?
12 A. It was a very sad situation where the
13 hospital -- in fact, as we were told, the hospital, in
14 fact, had been without electricity, without water for
15 three months, and people were in underground areas,
16 under the hospital.
17 As for the situation around the hospital,
18 next to the hospital there was a group of people in
19 civilian clothes, and we were told that this is the
20 hospital staff.
21 Q. Did anyone tell you whether or not other
22 patients had already been removed?
23 A. Yes. We were told both by the patients and by
24 the hospital staff that we met in the hospital. They
25 told us that some of the patients had already been
1 taken away and also some of the doctors had been taken
3 Q. Did they say which of the patients had been
4 taken away already?
5 A. I do not remember anybody specifying any
7 Q. But did they... okay.
8 A. As for names, I know that Dr. Bosanac was
10 Q. No, I am not after names. I am asking were
11 they any particular type of patient or persons that had
12 been removed. Were you informed of that?
13 A. Yes. We had been told that these are the
14 patients that the Yugoslav army had suspected of being
15 Croatian soldiers.
16 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I will ask you to
17 look at this document that I now show you. I have
18 a copy for your Honours, a copy for the Defence, and
19 one that might be marked as an exhibit, and might the
20 document be placed on the ELMO screen, and Mr. Kypr,
21 I am going to ask you to look at the document on the
22 overhead projector beside you, and to tell us what this
23 document is, and point out to us various features of
24 it, if you would be so kind.
25 When you are speaking, can I ask you to turn
1 your head to the microphone, when you actually answer,
2 because you need to make sure that your voice is picked
3 up, so it is a bit of an awkward position to be in but
4 I would ask you to do that for me, and, just pointing
5 with a pointer to the document in front of you,
6 firstly, do you recognise it?
7 A. Yes. This is a sketch that I made for the
9 Q. And what is it a sketch of?
10 A. This is the situation in the hospital when we
11 arrived. I noticed one thing that I considered rather
12 unusual, and that is that at two places there were
13 small heaps of sharp objects like penknives, for
14 example, scissors, and most of these were just scissors
15 and penknives.
16 Q. And did you mark on this particular document
17 that is now displayed the locations of that?
18 A. Yes. There were two small heaps, one was near
19 to the entrance to the hospital, and the second here in
20 this location, (indicates) it was on a hospital trolley
21 that was just standing there, somewhere nearby, nearby,
22 again, not far from the entrance to the hospital. There
23 was an underground, or there is an entrance to the
24 underground premises of the hospital which was used as
25 the main entrance at all times.
1 Q. Now, this document is drawn by you?
2 A. Yes. Yes. I have drawn this document.
3 Q. And the writing that appears on it is your
5 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.
6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I tender that, your
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 84.
9 MR. NIEMANN: And might the witness be shown
10 exhibit -- well, might I be given Exhibit P8? I wish to
11 show the witness a photograph.
12 Just looking at the photograph that now
13 appears on the projector beside you, which is part of
14 Exhibit P8, could you, on that photograph, point to the
15 same locations where you found this small heap of sharp
17 A. The first heap was somewhere here in this
18 location, here, on the lawn, or on this concrete
19 pavement, and the other one was somewhere here, and
20 this was the trolley that was standing here on this
21 path. (Indicated).
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. And this is the entrance to the hospital.
24 MR. NIEMANN: And for the record, your Honour,
25 that is the fifth photograph of P8. Thank you. That
1 might be taken back to the Registrar. Thank you.
2 Mr. Kypr, did you raise the issue of the
3 absence of these people that had been taken away with
4 the JNA?
5 A. Yes. They did this through our liaison
6 officer, because this, again, was a standard procedure.
7 First we addressed the liaison officer and it was up to
8 him to respond to this, but we were given no answer.
9 Q. Did you stay at the hospital until the people
10 were evacuated?
11 A. No. Together with Dr. Schou, we joined the
12 first convoy.
13 Q. When did the remainder of the people that you
14 saw at the hospital when you arrived, when did their
15 evacuation commence on that day, 20th November 1991?
16 A. I can talk about the group of people that we
17 saw standing next to the hospital.
18 Q. When did it first commence, the evacuation?
19 A. And as far as I remember, these -- the
20 evacuation of these commenced immediately after our
22 Q. Which time was that?
23 A. There were two ways -- I mean, two groups.
24 One was the Serb group and the other one was the
25 Croats who wanted to be evacuated together with our
2 Q. Now, what time did the Serb group, what
3 time were they evacuated? Are you able to give you...
4 was it midday, later in the afternoon? Are you able to
5 give us any idea?
6 A. I cannot say this precisely. I think it must
7 have been in the early afternoon.
8 Q. Okay. Now, the group that wanted to go to
9 Croatia, what time did their evacuation commence?
10 A. This was postponed until soon after lunch
11 because there were some problems.
12 Q. What were the problems?
13 A. There were some problems of a logistical
14 nature, for example, who would be taken out first,
15 because the hospital was overcrowded, the corridors
16 were very narrow, it was difficult to carry the wounded
17 and the patients.
18 Q. So when these logistical problems were
19 overcome, what time did the evacuation of the Croatian
20 people commence?
21 A. If I remember this correctly, the whole
22 convoy with the wounded and also a number of buses,
23 I believe there were three or five buses, I cannot
24 remember, these were ready at about 3.30 or 4 o'clock
25 in the afternoon and then immediately after that the
1 convoy set out on the journey.
2 Q. And where did they go? Did you accompany the
3 convoy all the way?
4 A. Our vehicle was part of the convoy where
5 these wounded were transported, and also the buses
6 were -- we went to Sremska Mitrovica because on the
7 front-line it was impossible to get a crossing, because
8 it was being fired on the front-line.
9 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your
11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
12 Cross-examined by MR. FILA
13 Q. Mr. Kypr, when you talked about Lovas, you
14 mentioned the mayor. Is Lovas a village or a town? It
15 does not have a population of 2,000?
16 A. It is a village.
17 Q. Since when do villages have mayors?
18 A. Perhaps this is a misinterpretation in the
19 transcription, because I did state that he introduced
20 himself to us as the military representative of the
21 village, and also as a civilian
22 representative of the village, and he said he was
23 a chief of a five member council that was representing
24 the village, but I do not remember the exact title he
1 Q. It is a question of interpretation. "Mayor",
2 in our language, "gradonacolink", mentions, "grad",
3 town, so it is the head of a town, and Mr. Niemann has
4 been using the expression, "mayor".
5 The convoy that left on 20th November from
6 Vukovar, several convoys that left, were there any
7 members of the Croat army who had been disarmed and were
8 then safely sent to Croatia? I mean not from the
9 hospital but from outside the hospital.
10 A. I cannot answer this question because I was
11 only in the hospital. In other words, I can provide
12 evidence on what I saw myself, and if I remembered
13 correctly, these people were not there, or at least they
14 were not observed by us. We were taking care of the
15 patients who were in the hospital and also the staff
16 and some of the members of the staff who were in the
17 hospital and around the hospital.
18 Q. To the best of your knowledge, before the
19 20th November were there only patients who were
20 civilians at the hospital or were there also wounded
21 members of the Croatian army or the paramilitary
23 A. We had been told that there were also members
24 of the Croat army, which is quite easy to understand
25 because we are talking about a military front.
1 Q. Among the people about whom you were told
2 that they were taken away, were there civilians or were
3 there members of the military or were there both, one
4 or the other? Did anybody give you an explanation as to
5 that effect?
6 A. I do not know. I do not remember anything of
7 this. Nobody had specified to us what was the
8 composition of the group that had been taken away. We
9 were told that those people had been taken away who --
10 about whom it was believed that they were the members
11 of the Croat army, and also some doctors had been
12 taken away.
13 Q. You do not know whether that was true or not.
14 A. That I do not.
15 Q. Can you tell us who told you about these
16 people who were taken away and who had taken them away,
17 and where were they taken away? Do you know more about
19 A. No, I do not know anything about this. I do
20 not know why these people had been taken away, because
21 we had other obligations to see to, and as for who told
22 us, there was no light, remember this, so the people we
23 were talking about, we could hardly see them and the
24 situation was very dramatic and I cannot remember the
25 identities of the people that we talked to, but we were
1 told by more people, both by the patients and by the
3 Q. But what? Did an official tell you something
4 to that effect, for example, Major Sljivancanin,
5 a captain or a lieutenant, someone?
6 A. I do not remember.
7 MR. FILA: Thank you very much, sir, and thank
8 you for your time. I have no further questions, your
10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, would you like to
11 re-examine? No. Thank you.
12 Thank you. I assume there is no objection to
13 the witness being dismissed.
14 Mr. Kypr, thank you so much for coming here to
15 give evidence in court. You may now be dismissed.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?
18 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honours. That is
19 the evidence that we have for this month.
20 Your Honours, we filed a motion yesterday,
21 Mr. Fila is aware of it. It is a motion in relation to
22 the taking of a deposition of a witness in Vukovar. It
23 is in a sense -- I understand the Defence have no
24 objection to this course, but it is a matter that we
25 would like your Honours ruling on, notwithstanding that
1 it would be by consent, I think, between the parties,
2 but whether your Honours have had a chance to see this
3 or not yet, it was filed late yesterday. I do not know
4 whether it is convenient to look at it at some time
5 today, if your Honour has had some time, or whether
6 your Honours would want more time to consider it.
7 The course proposed in it is not dissimilar
8 to that which is being proposed in another case, of
9 Aleksovski and the terms of the proposal are much the
10 same, so it is not something which is totally new to
11 the Tribunal, but it is something which we would need
12 to raise with your Honours and for your Honours to rule
13 on it one way or the other, but this deals with
14 a witness who refuses to testify, and -- in The Hague.
15 He refuses to come to The Hague, and we have attached
16 a copy of his statement to the motion.
17 He is happy to testify in Vukovar, and it
18 seems to us, your Honour, that it is a better course
19 than having to proceed by way of satellite link which
20 is a much more expensive and difficult process. This
21 would be much simpler, and as I understand, Mr. Fila
22 does not object to it, so it would be a course that we
23 would propose. But, your Honours have not had a chance
24 to see it so I am not sure where we can go from here,
25 whether your Honours would like to deal with it today
1 at some stage, later this afternoon, once your Honours
2 have had a chance to consider it, but it would be
3 useful, I think, to hear from Mr. Fila as to what
4 position he has on it. I think he is familiar with it.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. Mr. Fila?
6 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I spoke about this to
7 Mr. Waespi and I said that I would agree to it but
8 I have not seen this document so I do not know what it
9 says. But in principle I wish to state that it is much
10 better if we agree that we read this out as evidence,
11 rather than use the money of this court for a video
12 link that does not really change much. It does not make
13 any difference, really.
14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
15 I understand it is not a question of video link, it is
16 a question of taking a deposition in Vukovar.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I think what Mr. Fila is
18 commenting on is that it is much cheaper to proceed
19 this way rather than have the video link and he is
20 saying that he agrees with it for that reason.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So you have no
23 MR. FILA: No, but I would like to have a look
24 at it first. Could I see the statement first, please?
25 Nothing else. (Pause).
1 JUDGE CASSESE: The court has decided that we
2 should take a look at the -- at this document and of
3 course this also should be handed to the Defence, maybe
4 in the next half hour, and then we would reconvene, we
5 need at least 30 minutes, and then we could see whether
6 a decision is made, if the Defence has any point to
7 make it is most welcome, and then we will make
8 a ruling, maybe right away.
9 Now, I wonder whether we could also do some
10 planning for March. I understand that the Prosecution
11 will send somebody to Belgrade to interview the various
12 witnesses for the Defence, the 45 people, so that
13 probably some time in March we will know whether or not
14 the Prosecutor is ready to accept the idea of
16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. It probably
17 would not be by -- I do not think it would need to be
18 by deposition. We are having discussions with Mr. Fila
19 today to make an approach on this, and we think that
20 that will perhaps result in a simpler process and then
21 we may only have to interview those that -- where we
22 are unable to reach agreement on certain matters. It is
23 a bit premature for us to say exactly where we are at
24 the moment, but yes, in principle, your Honour is
25 exactly right. We will either proceed to interview all
1 45 between now and next March when the next sitting is,
2 or alternatively, some other suitable arrangement
3 between the parties could be reached, hopefully. And
4 the same would apply with respect to the settlement of
5 written admissions between the Prosecution and the
6 Defence with respect to our matters, so we will
7 endeavour to reduce the issues to as narrow a point as
8 possible by discussion and by reaching an agreement, if
9 that is possible.
10 So, to answer your Honour, we do expect to be
11 in that position when next we come before the court.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Fila, by when do you think you may be able
14 to know how many witnesses you intend to call? Do you
15 think in March when we start again, when we sit in
16 March you can tell us how many witnesses you intend to
18 MR. FILA: Your Honour, perhaps I could even
19 tell you now. You know, Mr. Niemann is right. When
20 a trial begins, or rather before it begins, it does not
21 always seem the way it turns out to be. I gave you the
22 statements and addresses of over 117 witnesses. I do
23 not think I am going to be needing even 40 of them.
24 For example, I have a statement of the driver
25 who was mentioned by Witness Q and who took Berghofer,
1 Cakalic and everyone from Ovcara, so it all fits in to
2 what Cakalic, Q and Berghofer said, so I see no reason
3 for him to come here and to say for the fifth time that
4 which we have already heard.
5 I am just giving this as an example, so I am
6 sure that the Prosecutor and I will agree on that.
7 Another example. You know that the indictment
8 says, "around the 20th November". That includes the
9 19th and the 21st, then. Obviously, the 19th is
10 irrelevant and that there is no need for me to prove
11 Mr. Dokmanovic's alibi for the 19th or for the 21st for
12 that matter, after 1 am, for instance, so that shortens
13 the whole thing as well, so I can tell you in advance
14 that in March the list is truly going to be very
15 shortened. That is the only thing I can tell you,
16 optimistically, and with regard to your first question,
17 in my opening statement I am going to say what I have
18 to say regarding what Mr. Niemann mentioned, that is
19 whether it was an international conflict, an
20 accumulation of charges, et cetera, so these are legal
21 issues, and whether Dokmanovic was there. That is what
22 we are out to prove, so I hope I have made myself
23 clear. Thank you for your attention.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I propose that we
25 stand in recess until 11.30.
1 (10.45 am)
2 (A short break)
3 (11.30 am)
4 JUDGE CASSESE: We apologise for the five
5 minute delay. We needed some time to consult with the
7 I wonder whether Mr. Fila has had an
8 opportunity to go through this document. Mr. Fila, would
9 you like to say whether you have any objection?
10 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have no objection,
11 but I am sorry that such a valuable witness as this one
12 was not examined as fully, as I think was necessary.
13 I promised Mr. Niemann that I would agree with the
14 reading of this document and I do, but I have
15 a proposal, if the Prosecution is agreeable. Perhaps it
16 would be a good idea if the Prosecution take an
17 additional statement from this witness.
18 You see, he talks about an excavator. So far
19 we have been talking about a bulldozer. Perhaps we
20 could take a photograph, whatever it was that was
21 digging the hole.
22 MR. NIEMANN: I just do not want to cut
23 Mr. Fila short, but the whole proposal is that Mr. Fila
24 would have full and ample opportunity to cross-examine
25 this witness, to go down to Vukovar to meet with him,
1 and in proceedings almost identical to what we have
2 here, will have full access to that. It would only be
3 that your Honours would not be there. But we would have
4 a presiding officer. I do not know whether that helps
5 Mr. Fila but he would lose nothing in relation to that.
6 MR. FILA: Very well. That was just
7 a suggestion on my part. I think it would be useful for
8 all of us here to have a photograph of that excavator,
9 and thank you for this opportunity. I will do my best
10 to interview him. I just thought that we should see
11 what the hole was dug with.
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila. Thank you
13 very much for being once again extremely cooperative
14 and helpful.
15 However, the court has problems in granting
16 this request, and there are two questions. We have gone
17 through the various problems which arise in connection
18 with the motion submitted by the Prosecution. There are
19 two problems. One major problem is the presence of the
20 accused. We cannot see how the accused could be
21 present, attend the deposition in Vukovar, and the
22 second problem is a practical set of problems,
23 actually. I would say the practical side is really
24 difficult, and in this respect I would like to ask the
25 senior legal officer who is here with us, to speak on
1 behalf of the Registrar and to, in a way, address the
2 issue of the practical problems that the taking of
3 a deposition would give rise to. Mr.s Featherstone?
4 MR.S FEATHERSTONE: Thank you, your Honour.
5 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask you to stand? Thank
7 MR.S FEATHERSTONE: Yes, your Honour. May I,
8 at the same time explain the other option that the
9 Chamber is considering, because you have not actually
10 referred to that yet.
11 I am sure it will be no surprise to the
12 parties that another option for this witness may be to
13 take his evidence via video conference link. Just
14 looking at the practical issues between the two ways of
15 proceeding, for the number of persons who would need to
16 travel to Vukovar, it is essentially the same number
17 that would have to go for a deposition, taking
18 a deposition, as for setting up a video conference
19 link. Indeed, it may even be one additional person
20 because obviously counsel for both sides would need to
21 be present, a presiding officer, interpreters, court
22 reporters, audio visual staff for the recordings,
23 et cetera, and possibly even some security detail
24 assigned to the mission. Therefore, the size of the
25 team that would be required is essentially the same.
1 As regards the possible additional cost of
2 the video conference link itself, I have spoken to the
3 head of the audio visual section at the Tribunal. We do
4 have the equipment for both ends of video-conferencing
5 link, and it would really boil down to the question of
6 whether or not there is a satellite within --
7 a satellite dish within easy access of the proposed
8 location of hearing the witness. That is something that
9 would need to be investigated, depending on what the
10 parties agreed as to the location of the taking of the
12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?
13 MR. FILA: Your Honour, you already have all
14 that equipment in Belgrade with Mr. Mehov and it is only
15 an hour's drive from Belgrade to Vukovar so if the
16 Prosecutor agrees, there should be no problems.
17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether
18 Mr. Niemann could tell us whether the witness would be
19 prepared to go to Belgrade?
20 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
21 JUDGE CASSESE: He would like to stay in
23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, but I think
24 there may be the facilities in Vukovar for the
25 satellite link. There is no studio or anything, but
1 I believe that there may be a satellite dish.
2 We are not unduly concerned one way or the
3 other, whether it was done by way of satellite link or
4 whether it is done by way of deposition. So, we are not
5 troubled by that, if the court has a preference, to do
6 it by way of satellite link. Our only concern was that
7 we had discovered in another case that the cost,
8 apparently, was very difficult and that a month's
9 notice was required and there was a whole lot of other
10 difficulties associated with it. It got to the point
11 where we decided that it could not be done in another
12 case, so because of that we proceeded down this route
13 but if that has changed and it now can be done well, we
14 are happy to go back to satellite links.
15 It was done in the Tadic case and done quite
16 successfully, but then when it came to be done in
17 another case it could not be done, so I am not sure
18 what the current status of all that is.
19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much. May
20 I ask Mr.s Featherstone to go on, maybe to complete her
22 MR.S FEATHERSTONE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann is
23 correct there, that the key point will be access to the
24 satellite dish. If that cannot be easily arranged at
25 a suitable location, then that does create
1 difficulties. That is basically the practical aspects
2 of deposition as compared with video-conferencing.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. (Pause).
5 So, after duly considering the matter and for
6 the reasons I set out before, the court feels that it
7 is not in a position to grant the motion filed by the
8 Prosecution, and prefers to hear the witness through --
9 by video link, and so therefore we hope that the
10 Registrar can start right away, maybe today, making the
11 necessary preparation for establishing the video link,
12 and we hope that we can hear the witness in March in
13 the week when we are sitting on this case. It is so
14 decided. Thank you.
15 Are there any other matters the parties
16 wished to raise?
17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. There is
18 a matter that I wish to raise, I am not asking the
19 court to rule on it in any way, I just wish to raise it
20 as an issue, though, so that your Honours are aware of
22 We are at the moment, when we have our
23 meeting with Mr. Fila, in the process of reducing the
24 ambit of our evidence as broadly as we can. In doing
25 that, we are considering issues that might be raised in
1 the Defence case. In some jurisdictions there is
2 a practice that the Prosecution must anticipate the
3 Defence case and lead in its own case the evidence
4 which would meet that which is raised, or can
5 reasonably be anticipated to be raised by the Defence
6 in their case.
7 The Rules of the Tribunal, particularly Rule
8 85(a)(iii), deal with the issue on the basis of the
9 Prosecution presenting further evidence in rebuttal,
10 which to some extent obviates the necessity for the
11 Prosecutor in its case to adduce evidence which would
12 seek to rebut a defence at that stage. We are not
13 expecting, and we do not anticipate that there would be
14 in any way a significant rebuttal case by the
15 Prosecution, but in the process of us reducing our
16 evidence in our own case, we are mindful of the fact
17 that under the Rules we may seek to lead evidence in
18 rebuttal to deal with issues that might arise in the
19 Defence case.
20 Now, there are fine arguments that can be
21 raised that one might anticipate, certain matters being
22 raised in the Defence case, and especially so in this
23 case, because Mr. Fila is being so open in his
24 discovery, so I just wished to note, as it were, that
25 we, in going through this exercise of reducing our
1 evidence, are doing so having regard to the fact that,
2 like in the Tadic case, the Prosecution did call
3 rebuttal evidence, and it is possible and indeed it is
4 probable that we would be seeking to call some rebuttal
5 evidence at that appropriate stage. I am not suggesting
6 it is going to be extensive, but I do expect that we
7 will do that.
8 If your Honours please.
9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you for your
10 warning, I think you are right. Under that Rule, yes,
11 you have a right to call rebuttal evidence.
12 Mr. Fila, any comment or would you like to
13 raise any issue? Additional issue?
14 MR. FILA: I think that I never wanted to deny
15 the right of the Prosecution under Rule 85 to call
16 evidence in rebuttal. What we can do to assist would be
17 to see what is controversial, what we are disputing, so
18 that we do not waste any time. I know the Prosecution
19 will not accept that I have an alibi for the defendant,
20 because then there would be no case, but we could,
21 perhaps, agree on some minor things that have already
22 become evident through the testimony. That would
23 shorten the proceedings.
24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see there are no
25 other matters to transact, and so once again, before we
1 adjourn, let me thank you on behalf of the court, let
2 me thank both parties for their cooperative attitude,
3 and we now stand in recess until March. I hope that
4 meanwhile we may receive some documents from the
5 parties so that we can do some homework on this matter,
6 and we now stand in recess.
7 (11.50 am)
8 (Hearing adjourned until Monday, 16th March 1998)