1. 1 DAY 11 Tuesday, 11th February 1998

    2 (9.15 am)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask the

    4 Registrar to call the case number?

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a-T, the

    6 Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.

    7 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask the

    8 Prosecution for the appearances, please?

    9 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name

    10 is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,

    11 Mr. Williamson, Mr. Waespi, Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Vos on

    12 the Prosecution.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    14 MR. FILA: Your Honour, my name is Toma Fila

    15 and together with Ms. Lopicic and Mr. Petrovic I am

    16 defending Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear

    18 me? Thank you. Thank you.

    19 Before we start, I would like to express the

    20 gratitude of the bench to the Prosecution for filing

    21 yesterday two additional legal briefs which will prove,

    22 I am sure, very helpful. We would be much obliged to

    23 the Prosecution if we could also be handed in the legal

    24 authorities supporting their legal briefs. I wonder

    25 whether it is complicated. It is just a way of helping

  2. 1 the court, and of course it will be for Mr. Fila to

    2 decide whether to address these two issues, namely

    3 international versus internal armed conflict and the

    4 question of accumulation of charges in his opening

    5 statement or in additional briefs, but in any case,

    6 again, we would be grateful to him if at some point in

    7 time he would be so kind as to hand in the legal

    8 authorities supporting his views on this matter.

    9 All right. I wonder whether... no? Yes?

    10 Mr. Williamson?

    11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour. Witness A,

    12 the witness that we have intended to call for the last

    13 day or so, is still quite ill, and in fact had to

    14 return to the doctor last night after coughing up

    15 blood. He is here. He is running quite a high fever,

    16 and is really in no condition to testify. I spoke with

    17 Mr. Fila beforehand, and he kindly agreed that if the

    18 witness would come in we can identify his statement,

    19 and introduce that and then we would seek to introduce

    20 his testimony from the Rule 61 hearing and then allow

    21 him to leave, if your Honours are agreeable with that.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So then you are

    23 referring both to the written statement and the Rule 61

    24 transcript.

    25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, sir.

  3. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I wonder whether Mr. Fila

    2 agrees, or would you like to cross-examine, not today,

    3 probably, because in this case we could maybe ask the

    4 witness to come back in March.

    5 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have no intention to

    6 cross-examine him at all. He is not speaking of my

    7 defendant at all, because it is better to have a court

    8 official go and see him rather than have a sick man

    9 testify over here, so why does not the official go

    10 there and identify him and that is fine with me.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well, your Honour. At

    13 this time if we can just have him brought in we will

    14 have him identify the statement and very quickly deal

    15 with this matter.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just while we have

    18 a moment, when the witness is being brought in, your

    19 Honours, we filed yesterday -- I see the witness.

    20 I will raise it later.

    21 (The witness entered court)

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    23 Could you please stand and make the solemn

    24 declaration?

    25 WITNESS A (sworn)

  4. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    2 Examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

    3 Q. Sir, I would like for you to examine this

    4 piece of paper, please, and, sir, at this time I am

    5 going to hand you a small piece of paper and if you can

    6 look at this and tell me if that is your name indicated

    7 on this sheet of paper, yes or no.

    8 A. Yes.

    9 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would seek to

    10 tender this as Prosecutor's exhibit...

    11 THE REGISTRAR: 78.

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: 78. Thank you. And this would

    13 be tendered under seal.

    14 Sir, while you are in court today I will be

    15 referring to you as, "Witness A". Do you understand

    16 that?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. In August 1995 do you recall meeting with

    19 Mr. Vladimir Dzuro, an investigator from the Tribunal

    20 Office of the Prosecutor and myself?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And at that time did you give a statement

    23 which was taken down in the English language?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Was that statement subsequently read back to

  5. 1 you by an interpreter into the Croatian language?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And did you, in fact, sign that statement?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would like to

    6 show the witness a document that we are marking as

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 79, and a Croatian translation of

    8 that document which will be marked as Prosecutor's

    9 Exhibit 79A.

    10 Looking at the document that we have marked

    11 as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79, do you see your signature

    12 on that document?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And did you indicate that this was your --

    15 that this statement was true and correct to the best of

    16 your knowledge?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would tender

    19 that as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79, and 79A, the Croatian

    20 translation, both under seal.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection, Mr. Fila? Thank

    22 you.

    23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Witness A, do you recall

    24 coming to this court in March of 1996 and testifying in

    25 a proceeding which is known as a Rule 61 hearing?

  6. 1 A. Yes.

    2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. I have no further

    3 questions, your Honour.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right, so

    5 I see that there is no objection to the witness being

    6 released.

    7 Witness A, I would like on behalf of the

    8 court to express to you our gratitude for coming here

    9 and I am so sorry that you are not well and I hope that

    10 you will soon recover. You may now be released.

    11 A. Thank you.

    12 (The witness withdrew)

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, at this time

    14 I would seek to introduce the testimony from the

    15 Rule 61 hearing as Prosecutor's Exhibit 80.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. The

    18 Prosecution calls Petr Kypr.

    19 (The witness entered court)

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you

    21 to make the solemn declaration?

    22 PETR KYPR (sworn)

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be seated.

    24 Mr. Niemann?

    25 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

  7. 1 Q. Sir, is your full name Petr Kypr?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And do you recall on 15th March 1996 being

    4 interviewed by an investigator from the Office of the

    5 Prosecutor of the Tribunal, Mr. Vladimir Dzuro?

    6 A. Yes, I do.

    7 Q. During the course of that -- was that

    8 interview recorded in the Czech language with you?

    9 A. Yes, the original was written in Czech.

    10 Q. And did you sign the original in the Czech

    11 language?

    12 A. Yes, I did sign all the pages of this

    13 document in Czech.

    14 Q. And are you aware of the fact that it has

    15 subsequently been translated into the English language

    16 and into the Croatian language?

    17 A. Yes, and I have seen the English version. And

    18 in the English version, if I may add, I found one

    19 mistake on page 6, and I would like you now to correct

    20 it.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Well, we will come to that in

    22 a moment. Firstly, I would like to show you these

    23 exhibits, these documents, and could they be marked

    24 with the Prosecution number next in order and then A

    25 and B, A for the English version, B for the Croatian

  8. 1 version, the original exhibit being in the Czech

    2 language.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: 81, 81A and 81B.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Mr. Kypr, I am just

    5 asking you, if you would, look at the

    6 statement in the Czech language and tell me if you see

    7 your signature appearing at the foot of each page of

    8 that document.

    9 A. Yes, I agree this is the copy of the original

    10 document.

    11 Q. And now, you were telling us a moment ago

    12 that you -- in the English version -- you found a small

    13 error that you would like to correct. Perhaps before we

    14 move onto that, I understand that you speak English. Is

    15 that correct?

    16 A. Yes, I understand English, I can speak some

    17 English but I was recommended to use the

    18 interpreter here in the courtroom.

    19 Q. Yes. I am only asking you that for the

    20 purposes -- that you can point in the English

    21 translation to the error. So perhaps you might take us

    22 there. Page 6, and where is the error?

    23 A. It is page 6, as I said, the first paragraph.

    24 It is the sixth line from the bottom, "Dr. Bosanac", and

    25 there in the brackets we have, "(who)" -- sorry, no,

  9. 1 there is a wrong translation in Serbian. Behind the

    2 word, "Bosanac", we have something added, and what has

    3 been added here is the beginning of the bracket, and

    4 then the word, "who".

    5 MR. NIEMANN: So, just to cover that, it is

    6 the sixth line on the first paragraph, page 6, after

    7 the highlighted word, "Bosanac", there appears

    8 a bracket and the word, "who", and you are saying that

    9 neither the bracket nor the word, "who", should appear

    10 there and should be deleted to make a better

    11 understanding of the sentence.

    12 Thank you. I tender those statements, your

    13 Honour.

    14 A. Yes. Now it is okay and as far as I know in

    15 the Serbian transcription the text is also correct.

    16 Q. Mr. Kypr, in 1991 were you appointed a Monitor

    17 for the European Community?

    18 A. Yes. This was in the late summer, at the

    19 end of August 1991.

    20 Q. And after your appointment, where did you

    21 take up position? Where did you take up your duty as

    22 a Monitor?

    23 A. First I was in Zagreb where I worked in

    24 different positions. I was stationed in Slovenia and

    25 Dalmatia and Gosbitzedal.

  10. 1 Q. And what position did you hold as an European

    2 Monitor?

    3 A. I was appointed by the Czech government, the head

    4 of the Czech delegation in the mission.

    5 Q. And what position did you have in the

    6 mission?

    7 A. In Zagreb, because I speak Serbo-Croatian,

    8 I was in the team of the interpreters.

    9 Q. And what about when you went to Belgrade?

    10 What position did you hold there?

    11 A. The mission soon realised that it was also

    12 important to set up regional centres, that is in

    13 Belgrade --

    14 Q. Now, and what position did you have in

    15 Belgrade?

    16 A. -- and I was sent to Belgrade as the

    17 representative of the Head of the Belgrade centre, as

    18 the deputy.

    19 Q. Now, as -- in your role as deputy head of

    20 mission in Belgrade, were you exposed to a number of

    21 documents that were documents of the ECMM and documents

    22 that the ECMM received from various parties?

    23 A. Yes. This was my duty, because (a) I could

    24 speak both English and Serbo-Croat, and (b) I was

    25 also the deputy head of the mission. In other words,

  11. 1 I was a member of the mission, that is the one of the

    2 team consisting of Mr. Perrin, myself, and the head of the

    3 Monitors.

    4 Q. In late September, early October of 1991 did

    5 you receive a directive to have regard to what was

    6 occurring in Ilok, in Croatia?

    7 A. Yes. We got instructions from Zagreb -- I am

    8 sorry, could you please turn up the volume on my

    9 headset?

    10 Yes, we got instructions from the Zagreb

    11 centre to send a team to Ilok.

    12 Q. And was a team subsequently sent to Ilok?

    13 A. Yes. One member of the team was sent to Ilok

    14 and I was not in that team.

    15 Q. Now, did you then subsequently go to Ilok

    16 yourself?

    17 A. Yes. I went to Ilok. I believe this was on the

    18 12th.

    19 Q. And how did you get to Ilok? Can you describe

    20 to the court the procedures you went through and the

    21 course that you took to arrive at Ilok?

    22 A. The standard procedure for all these trips or

    23 travels of Monitors' teams to the front-line from

    24 Belgrade was as follows: we had a vehicle for Monitors

    25 and it was accompanied by another vehicle of the

  12. 1 liaison officer of the Yugoslav national army.

    2 Q. And with the assistance of the Yugoslav

    3 People's Army or national army, how far did you go? Did

    4 you go all the way into Ilok or did you go only part of

    5 the way?

    6 A. No, we had to cover roughly

    7 130 kilometres. It took us three hours, and we had to

    8 stop before the bridge to Ilok.

    9 Q. Now, where is this bridge?

    10 A. While the liaison officer had to establish

    11 contact with the local command of the Yugoslav national

    12 army to let us cross the bridge.

    13 Q. And where is the bridge? In what town was

    14 this bridge?

    15 A. This is the bridge between Backa Palanka,

    16 which is on the Serbian side, and Ilok which is on the

    17 Croatian side of the Danube.

    18 Q. And did you, after contact was made with

    19 Ilok, did you then subsequently go into Ilok?

    20 A. Yes. We went into Ilok.

    21 Q. Now, what happened when you got into Ilok?

    22 A. We talked to the representatives of that town

    23 who described the situation.

    24 Q. And what happened after that?

    25 A. Then they informed us that the Yugoslav army

  13. 1 demanded that they surrender their weapons.

    2 Q. And did they speak to you about plans for

    3 evacuation of the people of Ilok?

    4 A. Yes. They told us that they were considering

    5 evacuation --

    6 Q. And what did they ask --

    7 A. -- but that it had not been decided whether

    8 there would be a referendum on this in town.

    9 Q. Did they show you any documentation, in

    10 relation to discussions that they had had?

    11 A. Yes. We had been shown the proposal submitted

    12 by the Yugoslav national army.

    13 Q. And did you read this proposal?

    14 A. Yes, I did.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I ask you to look at this

    16 document that I now show you, one being in the Croat

    17 language, Serbo-Croat language, one being in

    18 English. Perhaps it might be marked the next

    19 Prosecution exhibit in order, and the English version

    20 of it be given the letter A.

    21 Do you recognise the documents which you are

    22 now being shown? I have a copy there for the Defence, and the

    23 judges, apparently. There is only one page.

    24 A. Yes. The Serb version does correspond to

    25 what I recollect. I have not looked at the English

  14. 1 version.

    2 Q. No. I am just talking about the version that

    3 you were handed.

    4 When you saw this document, what were the

    5 most significant features of it, so far as you were

    6 concerned?

    7 A. This was an obvious offer to take over

    8 control of the town. This corresponds to item 6,

    9 accompanied by certain sanctions in case of problems

    10 arising. That is item 7.

    11 Q. Now, what role, if any, was the ECMM to play

    12 in the course of this evacuation, so far as you were

    13 concerned?

    14 A. The European Union Mission had very limited

    15 possibilities, given in the memorandum of

    16 understanding, and these meant that we were allowed to

    17 monitor the situation and only on restricted

    18 territory, that is on the territory of Croatia, not of

    19 Serbia. We were also allowed to communicate between the

    20 two parties and to help achieve an armistice and also

    21 possibly to try to prevent bloodshed.

    22 Q. Do you recall at this time the name or names

    23 of any of the JNA personnel that you had dealings with

    24 during the course of these discussions?

    25 A. If I remember correctly, the local

  15. 1 commander was Colonel Grahovac.

    2 Q. Now, in addition to the JNA, were there any

    3 other parties on the Serb side with whom you had

    4 dealings in connection with this matter?

    5 A. I cannot recall talking to any civilians

    6 about this question.

    7 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that

    8 there was discussion about a referendum in Ilok about

    9 this so-called evacuation. Were you aware of whether or

    10 not such a referendum was held?

    11 A. Yes. We were there on the 12th and we were

    12 told that on the 13th there would be this referendum,

    13 and if I remember it correctly, our team arrived there

    14 on the 14th.

    15 Q. And do you know the outcome of the

    16 referendum?

    17 A. Yes. We were informed by the municipality at

    18 Ilok about the results of the referendum.

    19 Q. And do you recall what the outcome of the

    20 referendum was? I am not asking for specific details,

    21 but do you recall what the outcome of the referendum

    22 was?

    23 A. Yes. Unanimously -- there were two questions

    24 asked under the referendum. One question was whether,

    25 due to the crisis situation, they should leave the

  16. 1 town, and the other question asked in the referendum

    2 was whether they should surrender all the weapons and

    3 sign a treaty with the Yugoslav national army.

    4 Q. When was the evacuation to take place,

    5 planned to take place, of Ilok?

    6 A. There is one thing I should like to add, and

    7 that is we had been informed about the outcome, so the

    8 result concerning the first question about the

    9 evacuation, it was decided that the majority of the

    10 citizens of Ilok wanted to be evacuated, wanted to

    11 leave, but at the same time, as for the second

    12 question, they did not want to surrender their weapons.

    13 Q. Now, when was this evacuation scheduled to

    14 take place?

    15 A. I cannot remember. I think it was to be on

    16 the 17th.

    17 Q. And did you attend the evacuation yourself?

    18 A. No. That day I had to leave in the morning.

    19 I had to leave for Belgrade, for Belgrade, and that is

    20 why I saw only the very beginning of forming the

    21 evacuation column, and it was a very sad picture.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Now, might the witness be shown

    23 Exhibit P5 for a moment, please?

    24 Looking for me at that document, do you

    25 recognise that?

  17. 1 A. Yes, I do, or rather I recognise this

    2 document in its Serb version.

    3 Q. That is right, yes. Now, when did you see

    4 that document that you -- Exhibit P5?

    5 A. If I remember it correctly, this was on the

    6 14th October. When we arrived at Ilok, the

    7 municipality informed us that it had to respect the

    8 results of the referendum and to arrange for the

    9 evacuation with the Yugoslav national army.

    10 Q. Now, you will see, I think, that article 3 of

    11 that document refers to 17th October 1991.

    12 A. Yes, but this was when the mines were being

    13 removed from the surroundings of Ilok.

    14 Q. And article 8 makes mention that after that,

    15 on 17th October, the convoy will depart.

    16 A. Yes. That is so.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Apart from -- perhaps that

    18 exhibit can be returned to the Registrar -- apart from

    19 inspecting Ilok itself, were you requested to also

    20 inspect surrounding villages and other places around

    21 Ilok?

    22 A. The situation at Ilok and in its surroundings

    23 was very dramatic because Ilok was at the very apex of

    24 the triangle which, in fact, was under siege by the

    25 Yugoslav national army and at Ilok at the same time

  18. 1 there were a number of refugees from villages

    2 surrounding Ilok, including some people from Vukovar,

    3 and also from villages like Opatovac, Lovas, Sarengrad,

    4 Bapska and I cannot remember the names of any others.

    5 Q. On 16th October 1991 did you have occasion to

    6 visit the village of Lovas?

    7 A. Yes. We visited a number of villages

    8 surrounding this town, and one of them was also Lovas.

    9 Q. Now, at this time when you went to Lovas, had

    10 it been conquered or taken over?

    11 A. Yes. The village was taken over, had been

    12 taken over, and we were told this by Serb

    13 volunteers.

    14 Q. And you were told that the village had been

    15 taken by Serb volunteers. Is that what you mean?

    16 A. Yes. A representative of that village had

    17 told us so.

    18 Q. Now, when you went to the village, did you

    19 meet with the local commander of the volunteers?

    20 A. Yes. We were received in the presence of some

    21 ten other citizens of that village.

    22 Q. Now, the local military commander that you

    23 met, he was a Serb, was he, so far as you know?

    24 A. Yes, at least he said so.

    25 Q. Now, in addition to being the local military

  19. 1 commander, did he claim to have any other title?

    2 A. If I remember correctly, he told us that

    3 the village is now in the command of five people, and

    4 he is the head of the team.

    5 Q. Did he say what his position was, if you can

    6 recall?

    7 A. I think if I remember it correctly, he said

    8 he was the military commander and he also said he was

    9 a -- what would be a mayor.

    10 Q. The mayor of the town. Did he say to you why

    11 it was necessary that Lovas was attacked?

    12 A. He explained to us that the attack was

    13 necessary because in the village there was a Serb

    14 minority that was being threatened by the Croat

    15 population.

    16 Q. Did he speak of the need to change the ethnic

    17 balance in the town?

    18 A. If I remember correctly, he did.

    19 Q. Can you tell us, elaborate just a little bit

    20 more on that. What did he say?

    21 A. This was rather surprising, because he was

    22 saying that it was essential that Serb people were

    23 moved into the village from other areas, and to change

    24 the structure that is unnatural because there was this

    25 majority of Croats, but honestly, I do not know

  20. 1 whether I remember this correctly because we are

    2 talking about a time seven years ago.

    3 Q. Did he say whether the JNA had played any

    4 role in the taking of Lovas?

    5 A. No, and this again surprised us, because he

    6 said that he had invested money in equipment, that he

    7 had provided equipment for the unit that had liberated

    8 the village, that he had invested I cannot remember how

    9 many Deutschmarks. I honestly cannot remember how

    10 many.

    11 Q. From the observations you made in this

    12 region, and having regard to the attacks on the various

    13 villages that you witnessed, did you form any view as

    14 to the approach that was being taken by the forces on

    15 the Serb side in relation to the military tactics of

    16 both the JNA, the volunteers and the paramilitaries?

    17 A. What was interesting, perhaps, was that the

    18 Yugoslav army rather held positions in the area where

    19 these villages were located and there were groups that

    20 we referred to as, "paramilitary groups", at that time.

    21 Q. Yes, and what did the paramilitary groups do?

    22 A. Could I get the Serb translation, please?

    23 The last question has not been translated into Serbian:

    24 please repeat once more.

    25 Q. What role did the paramilitary groups play,

  21. 1 so far as you were able to observe?

    2 A. These were the forces of the first attack,

    3 but this is a matter of what we were told, in fact,

    4 because in view of the rules under which we operated,

    5 we were never in the areas where paramilitary

    6 operations were proceeding.

    7 Q. Now, did you subsequently become involved in

    8 the evacuation of the town or city of Vukovar itself?

    9 A. Yes, because the fall of the city was

    10 being expected, and it was important to ensure

    11 humanitarian operations.

    12 Q. What time are we talking about? What month

    13 and date are we talking about now, when you say that

    14 the fall of the town was expected?

    15 A. We are talking roughly about one month after

    16 the events at Ilok. In other words, we are talking

    17 about the period between 15th November and onwards.

    18 Q. Now, how did you become aware of the

    19 necessity for the ECMM to become involved in this

    20 evacuation?

    21 A. This was a common procedure adopted by the

    22 European Union Mission, when our teams, to provide for

    23 the crossings of the frontiers for, let us say

    24 delegations from the two parties or for the humanitarian

    25 convoys of the two parties...

  22. 1 Q. Mr. Kypr, you can speak normally. The

    2 translation will keep up with you fairly well. If you

    3 are moving too fast, they will tell us. You can just

    4 speak normally. You do not need to stop to allow the --

    5 and do not be concerned about what is happening on the

    6 television screen in front of you. You do not have to

    7 keep pace with that.

    8 A. All right. The European Mission was to

    9 provide for the transfer of convoys, in other words, by

    10 keeping the mandate. It had, in other words -- we were

    11 making sure that the rules of a cease-fire were being

    12 honoured.

    13 A typical example was at Vukovar where the

    14 European Mission in fact was involved in providing

    15 conditions for a number of convoys that were leaving

    16 Vukovar because there were not only the two convoys

    17 from the Vukovar hospital, but there were also other

    18 convoys. Citizens of Vukovar, and each of these columns

    19 in fact was accompanied by one or more teams from the

    20 EUMM.

    21 Q. And where was the -- you mentioned the

    22 hospital, as a point of evacuation in Vukovar. Were

    23 there any other areas in Vukovar where evacuations were

    24 to take place from, so far as you knew?

    25 A. If I remember this correctly, yes, that there

  23. 1 were teams from Belgrade who were involved in providing

    2 conditions for the evacuation from the centre for

    3 refugees that were in the upper part of Vukovar.

    4 I cannot remember correctly, but I think it was called

    5 Velepromet, the place was called Velepromet.

    6 Q. And with respect to the evacuation from the

    7 hospital in particular, were you aware of whether or

    8 not this was to be based on an agreement entered into

    9 between the parties?

    10 A. Yes. First of all, orally and then also in

    11 a fax we were informed about the contents of the

    12 agreement between the Yugoslav national army and the

    13 Croat representatives concerning the course of the

    14 evacuation.

    15 Q. And was the fax sent to you from Zagreb?

    16 A. If I remember this correctly, the first piece

    17 of information they got by telephone and then this was

    18 followed by the fax.

    19 Q. And in addition to a message that you

    20 received in -- a facsimile message that you received,

    21 did you also receive a copy of an agreement that had

    22 been concluded between the parties on the 18th November

    23 in Zagreb?

    24 A. Yes, we did.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: I will show you the document.

  24. 1 Would you now look at this document for me, please?

    2 There is a copy for the Defence, a copy for their

    3 Honours and one to become an exhibit. Perhaps it might

    4 be given the next exhibit number in order.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Number 83.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: For the record, your Honours,

    7 the attached agreement is Exhibit P9 to this document.

    8 Mr. Kypr, do you recognise that as the

    9 facsimile message that you have been referring to?

    10 A. Yes, I do. It is the material.

    11 Q. Now, just looking at the message itself, do

    12 you know -- this message was sent from Zagreb to your

    13 office in Belgrade; is that right?

    14 A. Yes, this is right.

    15 Q. Does it say there, and perhaps you might take

    16 us to it, the date and time that the evacuation from

    17 the hospital was to occur?

    18 A. It is under article 1, where it says that

    19 they met on the 18th of November. In the Serb

    20 translation it is mentioned that it was the Yugoslav

    21 national army and the Croatian, not us as the mission.

    22 That was not correctly translated.

    23 Q. You say, "Serbian". I think this is only in

    24 English, is it not?

    25 A. I am referring to the Serb translation

  25. 1 that I was getting through the headset.

    2 Q. Oh. Yes. I am asking you to go to the message

    3 itself, not the agreement. The message itself. I am

    4 asking you there, can you point out, if you look at the

    5 second paragraph, number 2, does that say when the

    6 evacuation would take place?

    7 A. No, it does not. At least I cannot see it.

    8 I cannot see any date here or any minute mentioned,

    9 because this was a question of hours.

    10 Q. Mr. Kypr, would you please look at the

    11 message, not the agreement itself.

    12 A. You are not speaking about message. Sorry.

    13 Sorry, you were referring to the message. I see now. It

    14 says that, under article 1, that the evacuation of the

    15 hospital at Vukovar should start -- should take place on

    16 the 20th November.

    17 Q. And in paragraph 2 the reference on that, to

    18 paragraph 2, 20th, at 8 o'clock in the morning. Is that

    19 right?

    20 A. And also we have the hour here, 0800 hours.

    21 That is the military record from the American

    22 representative.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour.

    24 Now, I tender that. Perhaps that might be

    25 handed back to the Registrar.

  26. 1 Mr. Kypr, what role was the ECMM to play in

    2 this evacuation, so far as you knew?

    3 A. As I have already stated, the role was to

    4 monitor the armistice rules and also all the agreements

    5 that we have also seen in the annex of the document

    6 that I had submitted.

    7 Q. When did you arrive at Vukovar?

    8 A. It depends on where in Vukovar, because as

    9 for the upper part of Vukovar there we arrived at

    10 roughly 8 o'clock, if I have remember correctly. Then

    11 we had a very short briefing.

    12 Q. And who gave you this briefing?

    13 A. And then, together with the convoy, we went

    14 down to the lower part of Vukovar.

    15 The briefing, again if I remember it

    16 correctly, was given by one of the representatives of

    17 the Yugoslav national army, I believe it was Major

    18 Sljivancanin. I think it was Major Sljivancanin.

    19 I cannot remember any other name or any other person.

    20 Q. And where did the briefing take place in

    21 Vukovar? Was it at the hospital or was it in the middle

    22 of the town, or...

    23 A. No, this was in the upper part of the town of

    24 Vukovar. Perhaps it might have been even in the village

    25 on the outskirts, Negoslavci. It was either in the

  27. 1 upper part of the town of Vukovar or in one of the

    2 neighbouring villages but it was definitely in the

    3 upper part that had been under the Serb forces for

    4 some time then.

    5 Q. Now, this was 8 o'clock in the morning on the

    6 18th November -- sorry, on 20th November.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And what were you told at this briefing?

    9 A. We were told that it would be made possible

    10 for us to take part in the evacuation of the hospital.

    11 Q. What happened next? Where did you go from

    12 there?

    13 A. (Translation not received)... Followed by the

    14 vehicle of the Red Cross. First it was the military

    15 command that was followed by the International Red

    16 Cross then we had the liaison officer's vehicle,

    17 followed by the European Mission's vehicle, followed by

    18 some other vehicles, and these were transporters

    19 provided by the Yugoslav army. The whole convoy then

    20 proceeded to the lower part of Vukovar.

    21 Q. And when you got to the lower part of

    22 Vukovar, what happened then?

    23 A. There we stopped before the bridge over the

    24 Vuka River, and we were told that we could not cross,

    25 that we could not proceed.

  28. 1 Q. Who told you this?

    2 A. We were told by Major Sljivancanin.

    3 Q. And did he tell you why you could not

    4 proceed?

    5 A. Yes. We were told that there were mines and

    6 that they were currently removing the mines.

    7 Q. And were you able to see the hospital from

    8 this point?

    9 A. No, we were not, because in front of us there

    10 was some military vehicles, and if I remember the

    11 situation in the town well, the hospital had some other

    12 buildings in front of it, so we were not able to see

    13 the hospital.

    14 Q. Were you at the time concerned about this

    15 delay?

    16 A. Yes, but we were used to it because this

    17 was a standard procedure. We would be told that there

    18 are certain places that we could not access for security

    19 reasons, and again, following the rules of the European

    20 Union, we had to respect this.

    21 Q. How long were you held up at this bridge over

    22 the Vuka River?

    23 A. For about two hours, until 10.30, quarter to

    24 eleven.

    25 Q. At about 10.30, 10.45, what did you do then?

  29. 1 A. Then we were allowed to proceed and we

    2 arrived at the hospital.

    3 Q. Did Major Sljivancanin or somebody else from

    4 the JNA tell you that the road had now been cleared?

    5 A. I do not remember who it was who told us. It

    6 was just that the columns started moving. I cannot

    7 remember. I do not know.

    8 Q. Now, when you reached the hospital, what did

    9 you discover?

    10 A. First we saw the situation in the hospital.

    11 Q. What did you see?

    12 A. It was a very sad situation where the

    13 hospital -- in fact, as we were told, the hospital, in

    14 fact, had been without electricity, without water for

    15 three months, and people were in underground areas,

    16 under the hospital.

    17 As for the situation around the hospital,

    18 next to the hospital there was a group of people in

    19 civilian clothes, and we were told that this is the

    20 hospital staff.

    21 Q. Did anyone tell you whether or not other

    22 patients had already been removed?

    23 A. Yes. We were told both by the patients and by

    24 the hospital staff that we met in the hospital. They

    25 told us that some of the patients had already been

  30. 1 taken away and also some of the doctors had been taken

    2 away.

    3 Q. Did they say which of the patients had been

    4 taken away already?

    5 A. I do not remember anybody specifying any

    6 names.

    7 Q. But did they... okay.

    8 A. As for names, I know that Dr. Bosanac was

    9 missing.

    10 Q. No, I am not after names. I am asking were

    11 they any particular type of patient or persons that had

    12 been removed. Were you informed of that?

    13 A. Yes. We had been told that these are the

    14 patients that the Yugoslav army had suspected of being

    15 Croatian soldiers.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I will ask you to

    17 look at this document that I now show you. I have

    18 a copy for your Honours, a copy for the Defence, and

    19 one that might be marked as an exhibit, and might the

    20 document be placed on the ELMO screen, and Mr. Kypr,

    21 I am going to ask you to look at the document on the

    22 overhead projector beside you, and to tell us what this

    23 document is, and point out to us various features of

    24 it, if you would be so kind.

    25 When you are speaking, can I ask you to turn

  31. 1 your head to the microphone, when you actually answer,

    2 because you need to make sure that your voice is picked

    3 up, so it is a bit of an awkward position to be in but

    4 I would ask you to do that for me, and, just pointing

    5 with a pointer to the document in front of you,

    6 firstly, do you recognise it?

    7 A. Yes. This is a sketch that I made for the

    8 investigator.

    9 Q. And what is it a sketch of?

    10 A. This is the situation in the hospital when we

    11 arrived. I noticed one thing that I considered rather

    12 unusual, and that is that at two places there were

    13 small heaps of sharp objects like penknives, for

    14 example, scissors, and most of these were just scissors

    15 and penknives.

    16 Q. And did you mark on this particular document

    17 that is now displayed the locations of that?

    18 A. Yes. There were two small heaps, one was near

    19 to the entrance to the hospital, and the second here in

    20 this location, (indicates) it was on a hospital trolley

    21 that was just standing there, somewhere nearby, nearby,

    22 again, not far from the entrance to the hospital. There

    23 was an underground, or there is an entrance to the

    24 underground premises of the hospital which was used as

    25 the main entrance at all times.

  32. 1 Q. Now, this document is drawn by you?

    2 A. Yes. Yes. I have drawn this document.

    3 Q. And the writing that appears on it is your

    4 writing?

    5 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I tender that, your

    7 Honours.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 84.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: And might the witness be shown

    10 exhibit -- well, might I be given Exhibit P8? I wish to

    11 show the witness a photograph.

    12 Just looking at the photograph that now

    13 appears on the projector beside you, which is part of

    14 Exhibit P8, could you, on that photograph, point to the

    15 same locations where you found this small heap of sharp

    16 objects?

    17 A. The first heap was somewhere here in this

    18 location, here, on the lawn, or on this concrete

    19 pavement, and the other one was somewhere here, and

    20 this was the trolley that was standing here on this

    21 path. (Indicated).

    22 Q. Thank you.

    23 A. And this is the entrance to the hospital.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: And for the record, your Honour,

    25 that is the fifth photograph of P8. Thank you. That

  33. 1 might be taken back to the Registrar. Thank you.

    2 Mr. Kypr, did you raise the issue of the

    3 absence of these people that had been taken away with

    4 the JNA?

    5 A. Yes. They did this through our liaison

    6 officer, because this, again, was a standard procedure.

    7 First we addressed the liaison officer and it was up to

    8 him to respond to this, but we were given no answer.

    9 Q. Did you stay at the hospital until the people

    10 were evacuated?

    11 A. No. Together with Dr. Schou, we joined the

    12 first convoy.

    13 Q. When did the remainder of the people that you

    14 saw at the hospital when you arrived, when did their

    15 evacuation commence on that day, 20th November 1991?

    16 A. I can talk about the group of people that we

    17 saw standing next to the hospital.

    18 Q. When did it first commence, the evacuation?

    19 A. And as far as I remember, these -- the

    20 evacuation of these commenced immediately after our

    21 arrival.

    22 Q. Which time was that?

    23 A. There were two ways -- I mean, two groups.

    24 One was the Serb group and the other one was the

    25 Croats who wanted to be evacuated together with our

  34. 1 convoys.

    2 Q. Now, what time did the Serb group, what

    3 time were they evacuated? Are you able to give you...

    4 was it midday, later in the afternoon? Are you able to

    5 give us any idea?

    6 A. I cannot say this precisely. I think it must

    7 have been in the early afternoon.

    8 Q. Okay. Now, the group that wanted to go to

    9 Croatia, what time did their evacuation commence?

    10 A. This was postponed until soon after lunch

    11 because there were some problems.

    12 Q. What were the problems?

    13 A. There were some problems of a logistical

    14 nature, for example, who would be taken out first,

    15 because the hospital was overcrowded, the corridors

    16 were very narrow, it was difficult to carry the wounded

    17 and the patients.

    18 Q. So when these logistical problems were

    19 overcome, what time did the evacuation of the Croatian

    20 people commence?

    21 A. If I remember this correctly, the whole

    22 convoy with the wounded and also a number of buses,

    23 I believe there were three or five buses, I cannot

    24 remember, these were ready at about 3.30 or 4 o'clock

    25 in the afternoon and then immediately after that the

  35. 1 convoy set out on the journey.

    2 Q. And where did they go? Did you accompany the

    3 convoy all the way?

    4 A. Our vehicle was part of the convoy where

    5 these wounded were transported, and also the buses

    6 were -- we went to Sremska Mitrovica because on the

    7 front-line it was impossible to get a crossing, because

    8 it was being fired on the front-line.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your

    10 Honour.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    12 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

    13 Q. Mr. Kypr, when you talked about Lovas, you

    14 mentioned the mayor. Is Lovas a village or a town? It

    15 does not have a population of 2,000?

    16 A. It is a village.

    17 Q. Since when do villages have mayors?

    18 A. Perhaps this is a misinterpretation in the

    19 transcription, because I did state that he introduced

    20 himself to us as the military representative of the

    21 village, and also as a civilian

    22 representative of the village, and he said he was

    23 a chief of a five member council that was representing

    24 the village, but I do not remember the exact title he

    25 mentioned.

  36. 1 Q. It is a question of interpretation. "Mayor",

    2 in our language, "gradonacolink", mentions, "grad",

    3 town, so it is the head of a town, and Mr. Niemann has

    4 been using the expression, "mayor".

    5 The convoy that left on 20th November from

    6 Vukovar, several convoys that left, were there any

    7 members of the Croat army who had been disarmed and were

    8 then safely sent to Croatia? I mean not from the

    9 hospital but from outside the hospital.

    10 A. I cannot answer this question because I was

    11 only in the hospital. In other words, I can provide

    12 evidence on what I saw myself, and if I remembered

    13 correctly, these people were not there, or at least they

    14 were not observed by us. We were taking care of the

    15 patients who were in the hospital and also the staff

    16 and some of the members of the staff who were in the

    17 hospital and around the hospital.

    18 Q. To the best of your knowledge, before the

    19 20th November were there only patients who were

    20 civilians at the hospital or were there also wounded

    21 members of the Croatian army or the paramilitary

    22 armies?

    23 A. We had been told that there were also members

    24 of the Croat army, which is quite easy to understand

    25 because we are talking about a military front.

  37. 1 Q. Among the people about whom you were told

    2 that they were taken away, were there civilians or were

    3 there members of the military or were there both, one

    4 or the other? Did anybody give you an explanation as to

    5 that effect?

    6 A. I do not know. I do not remember anything of

    7 this. Nobody had specified to us what was the

    8 composition of the group that had been taken away. We

    9 were told that those people had been taken away who --

    10 about whom it was believed that they were the members

    11 of the Croat army, and also some doctors had been

    12 taken away.

    13 Q. You do not know whether that was true or not.

    14 A. That I do not.

    15 Q. Can you tell us who told you about these

    16 people who were taken away and who had taken them away,

    17 and where were they taken away? Do you know more about

    18 that?

    19 A. No, I do not know anything about this. I do

    20 not know why these people had been taken away, because

    21 we had other obligations to see to, and as for who told

    22 us, there was no light, remember this, so the people we

    23 were talking about, we could hardly see them and the

    24 situation was very dramatic and I cannot remember the

    25 identities of the people that we talked to, but we were

  38. 1 told by more people, both by the patients and by the

    2 staff.

    3 Q. But what? Did an official tell you something

    4 to that effect, for example, Major Sljivancanin,

    5 a captain or a lieutenant, someone?

    6 A. I do not remember.

    7 MR. FILA: Thank you very much, sir, and thank

    8 you for your time. I have no further questions, your

    9 Honour.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, would you like to

    11 re-examine? No. Thank you.

    12 Thank you. I assume there is no objection to

    13 the witness being dismissed.

    14 Mr. Kypr, thank you so much for coming here to

    15 give evidence in court. You may now be dismissed.

    16 (The witness withdrew)

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honours. That is

    19 the evidence that we have for this month.

    20 Your Honours, we filed a motion yesterday,

    21 Mr. Fila is aware of it. It is a motion in relation to

    22 the taking of a deposition of a witness in Vukovar. It

    23 is in a sense -- I understand the Defence have no

    24 objection to this course, but it is a matter that we

    25 would like your Honours ruling on, notwithstanding that

  39. 1 it would be by consent, I think, between the parties,

    2 but whether your Honours have had a chance to see this

    3 or not yet, it was filed late yesterday. I do not know

    4 whether it is convenient to look at it at some time

    5 today, if your Honour has had some time, or whether

    6 your Honours would want more time to consider it.

    7 The course proposed in it is not dissimilar

    8 to that which is being proposed in another case, of

    9 Aleksovski and the terms of the proposal are much the

    10 same, so it is not something which is totally new to

    11 the Tribunal, but it is something which we would need

    12 to raise with your Honours and for your Honours to rule

    13 on it one way or the other, but this deals with

    14 a witness who refuses to testify, and -- in The Hague.

    15 He refuses to come to The Hague, and we have attached

    16 a copy of his statement to the motion.

    17 He is happy to testify in Vukovar, and it

    18 seems to us, your Honour, that it is a better course

    19 than having to proceed by way of satellite link which

    20 is a much more expensive and difficult process. This

    21 would be much simpler, and as I understand, Mr. Fila

    22 does not object to it, so it would be a course that we

    23 would propose. But, your Honours have not had a chance

    24 to see it so I am not sure where we can go from here,

    25 whether your Honours would like to deal with it today

  40. 1 at some stage, later this afternoon, once your Honours

    2 have had a chance to consider it, but it would be

    3 useful, I think, to hear from Mr. Fila as to what

    4 position he has on it. I think he is familiar with it.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    6 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I spoke about this to

    7 Mr. Waespi and I said that I would agree to it but

    8 I have not seen this document so I do not know what it

    9 says. But in principle I wish to state that it is much

    10 better if we agree that we read this out as evidence,

    11 rather than use the money of this court for a video

    12 link that does not really change much. It does not make

    13 any difference, really.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila.

    15 I understand it is not a question of video link, it is

    16 a question of taking a deposition in Vukovar.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. I think what Mr. Fila is

    18 commenting on is that it is much cheaper to proceed

    19 this way rather than have the video link and he is

    20 saying that he agrees with it for that reason.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So you have no

    22 objection?

    23 MR. FILA: No, but I would like to have a look

    24 at it first. Could I see the statement first, please?

    25 Nothing else. (Pause).

  41. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: The court has decided that we

    2 should take a look at the -- at this document and of

    3 course this also should be handed to the Defence, maybe

    4 in the next half hour, and then we would reconvene, we

    5 need at least 30 minutes, and then we could see whether

    6 a decision is made, if the Defence has any point to

    7 make it is most welcome, and then we will make

    8 a ruling, maybe right away.

    9 Now, I wonder whether we could also do some

    10 planning for March. I understand that the Prosecution

    11 will send somebody to Belgrade to interview the various

    12 witnesses for the Defence, the 45 people, so that

    13 probably some time in March we will know whether or not

    14 the Prosecutor is ready to accept the idea of

    15 depositions.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. It probably

    17 would not be by -- I do not think it would need to be

    18 by deposition. We are having discussions with Mr. Fila

    19 today to make an approach on this, and we think that

    20 that will perhaps result in a simpler process and then

    21 we may only have to interview those that -- where we

    22 are unable to reach agreement on certain matters. It is

    23 a bit premature for us to say exactly where we are at

    24 the moment, but yes, in principle, your Honour is

    25 exactly right. We will either proceed to interview all

  42. 1 45 between now and next March when the next sitting is,

    2 or alternatively, some other suitable arrangement

    3 between the parties could be reached, hopefully. And

    4 the same would apply with respect to the settlement of

    5 written admissions between the Prosecution and the

    6 Defence with respect to our matters, so we will

    7 endeavour to reduce the issues to as narrow a point as

    8 possible by discussion and by reaching an agreement, if

    9 that is possible.

    10 So, to answer your Honour, we do expect to be

    11 in that position when next we come before the court.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    13 Mr. Fila, by when do you think you may be able

    14 to know how many witnesses you intend to call? Do you

    15 think in March when we start again, when we sit in

    16 March you can tell us how many witnesses you intend to

    17 call.

    18 MR. FILA: Your Honour, perhaps I could even

    19 tell you now. You know, Mr. Niemann is right. When

    20 a trial begins, or rather before it begins, it does not

    21 always seem the way it turns out to be. I gave you the

    22 statements and addresses of over 117 witnesses. I do

    23 not think I am going to be needing even 40 of them.

    24 For example, I have a statement of the driver

    25 who was mentioned by Witness Q and who took Berghofer,

  43. 1 Cakalic and everyone from Ovcara, so it all fits in to

    2 what Cakalic, Q and Berghofer said, so I see no reason

    3 for him to come here and to say for the fifth time that

    4 which we have already heard.

    5 I am just giving this as an example, so I am

    6 sure that the Prosecutor and I will agree on that.

    7 Another example. You know that the indictment

    8 says, "around the 20th November". That includes the

    9 19th and the 21st, then. Obviously, the 19th is

    10 irrelevant and that there is no need for me to prove

    11 Mr. Dokmanovic's alibi for the 19th or for the 21st for

    12 that matter, after 1 am, for instance, so that shortens

    13 the whole thing as well, so I can tell you in advance

    14 that in March the list is truly going to be very

    15 shortened. That is the only thing I can tell you,

    16 optimistically, and with regard to your first question,

    17 in my opening statement I am going to say what I have

    18 to say regarding what Mr. Niemann mentioned, that is

    19 whether it was an international conflict, an

    20 accumulation of charges, et cetera, so these are legal

    21 issues, and whether Dokmanovic was there. That is what

    22 we are out to prove, so I hope I have made myself

    23 clear. Thank you for your attention.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I propose that we

    25 stand in recess until 11.30.

  44. 1 (10.45 am)

    2 (A short break)

    3 (11.30 am)

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: We apologise for the five

    5 minute delay. We needed some time to consult with the

    6 Registrar.

    7 I wonder whether Mr. Fila has had an

    8 opportunity to go through this document. Mr. Fila, would

    9 you like to say whether you have any objection?

    10 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I have no objection,

    11 but I am sorry that such a valuable witness as this one

    12 was not examined as fully, as I think was necessary.

    13 I promised Mr. Niemann that I would agree with the

    14 reading of this document and I do, but I have

    15 a proposal, if the Prosecution is agreeable. Perhaps it

    16 would be a good idea if the Prosecution take an

    17 additional statement from this witness.

    18 You see, he talks about an excavator. So far

    19 we have been talking about a bulldozer. Perhaps we

    20 could take a photograph, whatever it was that was

    21 digging the hole.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: I just do not want to cut

    23 Mr. Fila short, but the whole proposal is that Mr. Fila

    24 would have full and ample opportunity to cross-examine

    25 this witness, to go down to Vukovar to meet with him,

  45. 1 and in proceedings almost identical to what we have

    2 here, will have full access to that. It would only be

    3 that your Honours would not be there. But we would have

    4 a presiding officer. I do not know whether that helps

    5 Mr. Fila but he would lose nothing in relation to that.

    6 MR. FILA: Very well. That was just

    7 a suggestion on my part. I think it would be useful for

    8 all of us here to have a photograph of that excavator,

    9 and thank you for this opportunity. I will do my best

    10 to interview him. I just thought that we should see

    11 what the hole was dug with.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you, Mr. Fila. Thank you

    13 very much for being once again extremely cooperative

    14 and helpful.

    15 However, the court has problems in granting

    16 this request, and there are two questions. We have gone

    17 through the various problems which arise in connection

    18 with the motion submitted by the Prosecution. There are

    19 two problems. One major problem is the presence of the

    20 accused. We cannot see how the accused could be

    21 present, attend the deposition in Vukovar, and the

    22 second problem is a practical set of problems,

    23 actually. I would say the practical side is really

    24 difficult, and in this respect I would like to ask the

    25 senior legal officer who is here with us, to speak on

  46. 1 behalf of the Registrar and to, in a way, address the

    2 issue of the practical problems that the taking of

    3 a deposition would give rise to. Mr.s Featherstone?

    4 MR.S FEATHERSTONE: Thank you, your Honour.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: May I ask you to stand? Thank

    6 you.

    7 MR.S FEATHERSTONE: Yes, your Honour. May I,

    8 at the same time explain the other option that the

    9 Chamber is considering, because you have not actually

    10 referred to that yet.

    11 I am sure it will be no surprise to the

    12 parties that another option for this witness may be to

    13 take his evidence via video conference link. Just

    14 looking at the practical issues between the two ways of

    15 proceeding, for the number of persons who would need to

    16 travel to Vukovar, it is essentially the same number

    17 that would have to go for a deposition, taking

    18 a deposition, as for setting up a video conference

    19 link. Indeed, it may even be one additional person

    20 because obviously counsel for both sides would need to

    21 be present, a presiding officer, interpreters, court

    22 reporters, audio visual staff for the recordings,

    23 et cetera, and possibly even some security detail

    24 assigned to the mission. Therefore, the size of the

    25 team that would be required is essentially the same.

  47. 1 As regards the possible additional cost of

    2 the video conference link itself, I have spoken to the

    3 head of the audio visual section at the Tribunal. We do

    4 have the equipment for both ends of video-conferencing

    5 link, and it would really boil down to the question of

    6 whether or not there is a satellite within --

    7 a satellite dish within easy access of the proposed

    8 location of hearing the witness. That is something that

    9 would need to be investigated, depending on what the

    10 parties agreed as to the location of the taking of the

    11 evidence.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?

    13 MR. FILA: Your Honour, you already have all

    14 that equipment in Belgrade with Mr. Mehov and it is only

    15 an hour's drive from Belgrade to Vukovar so if the

    16 Prosecutor agrees, there should be no problems.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I wonder whether

    18 Mr. Niemann could tell us whether the witness would be

    19 prepared to go to Belgrade?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: He would like to stay in

    22 Vukovar?

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, but I think

    24 there may be the facilities in Vukovar for the

    25 satellite link. There is no studio or anything, but

  48. 1 I believe that there may be a satellite dish.

    2 We are not unduly concerned one way or the

    3 other, whether it was done by way of satellite link or

    4 whether it is done by way of deposition. So, we are not

    5 troubled by that, if the court has a preference, to do

    6 it by way of satellite link. Our only concern was that

    7 we had discovered in another case that the cost,

    8 apparently, was very difficult and that a month's

    9 notice was required and there was a whole lot of other

    10 difficulties associated with it. It got to the point

    11 where we decided that it could not be done in another

    12 case, so because of that we proceeded down this route

    13 but if that has changed and it now can be done well, we

    14 are happy to go back to satellite links.

    15 It was done in the Tadic case and done quite

    16 successfully, but then when it came to be done in

    17 another case it could not be done, so I am not sure

    18 what the current status of all that is.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you very much. May

    20 I ask Mr.s Featherstone to go on, maybe to complete her

    21 exposition?

    22 MR.S FEATHERSTONE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann is

    23 correct there, that the key point will be access to the

    24 satellite dish. If that cannot be easily arranged at

    25 a suitable location, then that does create

  49. 1 difficulties. That is basically the practical aspects

    2 of deposition as compared with video-conferencing.

    3 Thank you.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. (Pause).

    5 So, after duly considering the matter and for

    6 the reasons I set out before, the court feels that it

    7 is not in a position to grant the motion filed by the

    8 Prosecution, and prefers to hear the witness through --

    9 by video link, and so therefore we hope that the

    10 Registrar can start right away, maybe today, making the

    11 necessary preparation for establishing the video link,

    12 and we hope that we can hear the witness in March in

    13 the week when we are sitting on this case. It is so

    14 decided. Thank you.

    15 Are there any other matters the parties

    16 wished to raise?

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. There is

    18 a matter that I wish to raise, I am not asking the

    19 court to rule on it in any way, I just wish to raise it

    20 as an issue, though, so that your Honours are aware of

    21 it.

    22 We are at the moment, when we have our

    23 meeting with Mr. Fila, in the process of reducing the

    24 ambit of our evidence as broadly as we can. In doing

    25 that, we are considering issues that might be raised in

  50. 1 the Defence case. In some jurisdictions there is

    2 a practice that the Prosecution must anticipate the

    3 Defence case and lead in its own case the evidence

    4 which would meet that which is raised, or can

    5 reasonably be anticipated to be raised by the Defence

    6 in their case.

    7 The Rules of the Tribunal, particularly Rule

    8 85(a)(iii), deal with the issue on the basis of the

    9 Prosecution presenting further evidence in rebuttal,

    10 which to some extent obviates the necessity for the

    11 Prosecutor in its case to adduce evidence which would

    12 seek to rebut a defence at that stage. We are not

    13 expecting, and we do not anticipate that there would be

    14 in any way a significant rebuttal case by the

    15 Prosecution, but in the process of us reducing our

    16 evidence in our own case, we are mindful of the fact

    17 that under the Rules we may seek to lead evidence in

    18 rebuttal to deal with issues that might arise in the

    19 Defence case.

    20 Now, there are fine arguments that can be

    21 raised that one might anticipate, certain matters being

    22 raised in the Defence case, and especially so in this

    23 case, because Mr. Fila is being so open in his

    24 discovery, so I just wished to note, as it were, that

    25 we, in going through this exercise of reducing our

  51. 1 evidence, are doing so having regard to the fact that,

    2 like in the Tadic case, the Prosecution did call

    3 rebuttal evidence, and it is possible and indeed it is

    4 probable that we would be seeking to call some rebuttal

    5 evidence at that appropriate stage. I am not suggesting

    6 it is going to be extensive, but I do expect that we

    7 will do that.

    8 If your Honours please.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you for your

    10 warning, I think you are right. Under that Rule, yes,

    11 you have a right to call rebuttal evidence.

    12 Mr. Fila, any comment or would you like to

    13 raise any issue? Additional issue?

    14 MR. FILA: I think that I never wanted to deny

    15 the right of the Prosecution under Rule 85 to call

    16 evidence in rebuttal. What we can do to assist would be

    17 to see what is controversial, what we are disputing, so

    18 that we do not waste any time. I know the Prosecution

    19 will not accept that I have an alibi for the defendant,

    20 because then there would be no case, but we could,

    21 perhaps, agree on some minor things that have already

    22 become evident through the testimony. That would

    23 shorten the proceedings.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I see there are no

    25 other matters to transact, and so once again, before we

  52. 1 adjourn, let me thank you on behalf of the court, let

    2 me thank both parties for their cooperative attitude,

    3 and we now stand in recess until March. I hope that

    4 meanwhile we may receive some documents from the

    5 parties so that we can do some homework on this matter,

    6 and we now stand in recess.

    7 (11.50 am)

    8 (Hearing adjourned until Monday, 16th March 1998)