Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2344

          1                           Monday, 27th April 1998

          2            (8.30 a.m.)

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:   Good morning.  I ask the

          4  Registrar to call out the case number, please.

          5            THE REGISTRAR:    Case number IT-95-13a-T,

          6  Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.

          7            MR. NIEMANN:    Good morning, your Honours. My

          8  name is Niemann.  I appear with my colleagues,

          9  Mr. Williamson, Mr. Waespi and Mr. Vos for the

         10  Prosecution.

         11            MR. FILA:   My name is Mr. Toma Fila, I appear

         12  with Ms. Lopicic and Mr. Petrovic for Mr. Dokmanovic.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear

         14  me?

         15            Before we proceed with our first witness, let

         16  me tell you that, on Friday, we had a meeting with the

         17  President of this Tribunal and all the presiding

         18  judges.  We eventually agreed upon the final courtroom

         19  schedule for May, June, July and August.  As a result

         20  of the agreement reached in that meeting, it is now

         21  clear that we have two weeks -- we can sit on this case

         22  for two weeks in May, the week from 18 to 22 May --

         23  however, I am afraid only from 8.30 to 12.30 in the

         24  morning, every morning, for four hours, including the

         25  breaks of course, and then the fourth week of May,

Page 2345

          1  namely, from 25 to 29 May, we will sit on this case in

          2  the morning and in the afternoon.

          3            Then we will have to skip two weeks, because

          4  we have other cases, and then we can resume our

          5  hearings on 15 June until 18 June -- four working days.

          6            We very much hope that, in that week in June,

          7  we may wind up our case.  Probably there will be

          8  rebuttal witnesses and I hope we could also have in

          9  that week the closing statements of both parties.  Do

         10  you think we can make it -- four days, morning and

         11  afternoon?  I know it is very tight, but we should make

         12  an effort.  Otherwise, we cannot finish in June and in

         13  July there are other cases to be heard by this Trial

         14  Chamber, so I wonder whether we could really make an

         15  effort and finish by 18 June.

         16            We very much rely upon the cooperation of

         17  both parties.  I wonder whether there are any questions

         18  relating to this particular point?

         19            MR. FILA:   Is it standard procedure, because

         20  in my country it is, that the final summing up is given

         21  in writing and then is submitted orally, briefly, which

         22  makes matters more succinct -- the final argument, is

         23  it given in writing first?  That is the Yugoslavian

         24  system, but it does not mean it is a good one and valid

         25  here.

Page 2346

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:   It could be quite good.

          2  I think this would be a way of saving time, to have the

          3  closing statements first in writing and then very

          4  briefly summed up orally.

          5            Mr. Niemann, would you accept this procedure?

          6            MR. NIEMANN:    We will produce something in

          7  writing in the nature of a summary, particularly a

          8  directory to the evidence, so that when we say that

          9  this element is proved and this is the evidence that

         10  proves it, we will be doing something along those

         11  lines.  We still want to make a closing address,

         12  though.  It is important I think for this to be orally

         13  presented so it can be argued.  It also provides an

         14  opportunity if there are any questions that occur to

         15  your Honours about the Prosecution case or the Defence

         16  case, often oral presentation prompts that sort of

         17  issue and then your Honours can deal with it.

         18            Otherwise, there is this sort of going back

         19  and forth on issues which often happens with written

         20  submissions.

         21            We will be producing something in writing.

         22  It will be in the nature of a summary, but we also wish

         23  to address you orally on the matter.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:   Yes, but I understand this

         25  is also what Mr. Fila was proposing -- his idea was,

Page 2347

          1  however, that the oral presentation should be fairly

          2  short and then followed by questions and the bulk of

          3  the argument should be found in the written statement.

          4  So, therefore, we could try to have closing statements

          5  and oral presentations -- it very much depends on how

          6  much time you need for the rebuttal witnesses.  We may

          7  have only four working days in June.

          8            MR. NIEMANN:    I am not in a position to

          9  comment on that.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:   But assuming you were to

         11  need only, say, two days for the rebuttal witnesses,

         12  then we could have two days for closing statements.

         13            MR. NIEMANN:    Yes.  That would be ample

         14  time.  I do not imagine I would take anything like a

         15  whole day, but I would imagine that I would take three

         16  hours for a closing address, and probably --

         17            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Niemann, what is the rule

         18  about rebuttal evidence?  Is it evidence which you were

         19  not in a position to call in your evidence-in-chief --

         20  that is certainly the rule that I am familiar with.  Is

         21  that the rule here?

         22            MR. NIEMANN:    Your Honours, I go on my

         23  experience in Tadic, which is all I can do, and I think

         24  perhaps that the system that your Honour is used to and

         25  the one that I am used to is different to that which

Page 2348

          1  prevailed in the Tadic case.

          2            My understanding of the practice that

          3  operates, for example, in one jurisdiction in the

          4  United States is that it seems to be broader than

          5  certainly I was accustomed to in terms of the

          6  presentation of rebuttal evidence.  It strictly follows

          7  the traditional approach -- it is only those matters

          8  which are raised during the course of the Defence case,

          9  but it is different in this sense, that in my

         10  jurisdiction at least the Prosecution has a

         11  responsibility to, in large measure, anticipate

         12  defences in the course of its case and to present its

         13  evidence dealing with and addressing those questions in

         14  the course of the Prosecution case, and that is not the

         15  practice that was followed in the Tadic case.

         16            What occurred there was that issues that were

         17  raised in the Defence case were dealt with by rebuttal

         18  evidence.  That is why I raised the matter earlier.

         19  I know your Honour comes from a jurisdiction that dealt

         20  with the matter differently to the way I am accustomed

         21  to.  There is this obligation on the Prosecution that

         22  exists in the jurisdiction I come from -- it did not

         23  exist in the Tadic case.  Nevertheless, it is fairly

         24  expeditiously dealt with, and it is not a drawn-out

         25  process at all.

Page 2349

          1            JUDGE MAY:  If I may interrupt, the

          2  difficulty is this:  given the tightness of the

          3  timetable, and the reason it is tight is because, as

          4  you know, Mr. Niemann, there are a large number of other

          5  cases waiting to be tried and, therefore, we must try

          6  this one expeditiously, and speaking for myself,

          7  I would regard rebuttal evidence to be in a fairly

          8  narrow compass and no doubt that is the way the

          9  Prosecution will approach it -- to deal with purely

         10  relevant matters and matters which have not been dealt

         11  with or possibly have not been dealt with in the

         12  Prosecution case in chief.

         13            But it may be this is to anticipate matters.

         14  However, I think I should, speaking for myself, say

         15  that I would be looking at the matter fairly narrowly

         16  and trying to keep it in a short compass.

         17            MR. NIEMANN:    I specifically and

         18  deliberately raised it during the case in chief so that

         19  if your Honours had any concern about that, we could

         20  discuss it then, because I certainly was concerned

         21  about it in the Tadic case when it arose and a more

         22  broader view was taken of the issue there.  That is one

         23  of the reasons I raised it.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  Would it be more sensible to

         25  discuss it towards the end of the Defence case when you

Page 2350

          1  will know roughly what areas you want to cover?  It

          2  might be sensible, before you start getting the

          3  evidence, to discuss what seems to be relevant and what

          4  does not?

          5            MR. NIEMANN:    Certainly, I think that would

          6  be helpful.  At this stage it is hard for us to

          7  predict.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:    I just wanted to point out

          9  that I hope it is not a question of giving the

         10  Prosecution a second bite at the cherry.

         11            MR. NIEMANN:    No, it is not that.

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:   Very well.  We may now

         13  proceed.

         14            MR. FILA:   According to Rule 85, your

         15  Honours, of the rights of the Defence to give a reply

         16  to the evidence submitted by the Prosecution, and that

         17  the Trial Chamber present the evidence asked for --

         18  I do not know that I will have evidence of this kind,

         19  but for me to know whether I have them or not, I would

         20  like the Prosecution, on time, to tell me which

         21  evidence it will be submitting so that, in those four

         22  days of May, if I have anything as a rejoinder --

         23  Defence evidence in rejoinder that I prepare it -- four

         24  days of June, I am sorry, for the Defence evidence in

         25  rejoinder.

Page 2351

          1            In order to speed up matters, I have nothing

          2  against, as I said at the beginning, having, in the

          3  course of May, when I have my Defence turn, every

          4  proposal that the Prosecution considers would be useful

          5  to propose and present during its Defence time --

          6  during the Defence time and that is not contrary to the

          7  Rules along with my agreement.  Thank you, your

          8  Honours.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  I think by and

         10  large we should take up the wise suggestion made by

         11  Judge May that, in May, before you conclude your case,

         12  we can probably discuss with the Prosecutor the

         13  question of rebuttal evidence and see the type of

         14  evidence the Prosecutor is prepared to present.

         15            We should now move on to our next witness;

         16  Dr. Bulajic.

         17            MR. PETROVIC:   I apologise, there has been a

         18  turn about in our agenda -- Dr. Bulajic will be second

         19  and the first witness is Mr. Dragutin Antic -- he was to

         20  have been second but is the first witness this

         21  morning.  We informed the Prosecution of this on

         22  Friday, of this alteration.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Antic, could you please

         24  make the solemn declaration.

         25            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

Page 2352

          1  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

          2  the truth.

          3                      DRAGUTIN ANTIC

          4                  Examined by MR. PETROVIC

          5       Q.   Mr. Antic, did you, on 14 January 1998, have

          6  talks with the investigator for the Defence, Miroslav

          7  Vasic, and on that occasion did you sign a statement

          8  that I am going to show you now.

          9            Would you please show the statement to the

         10  witness?  It is in Serbian and has been translated into

         11  English.  (Handed).

         12            THE REGISTRAR:    Document D34 and the

         13  translation is D34A.

         14            MR. PETROVIC:   Is that the document and did

         15  you sign it?

         16       A.   Yes, it is the document, my statement signed

         17  by me on 14 January 1998.

         18            MR. PETROVIC:  If there are no objections,

         19  I should like to propose that documents D34 and D34A be

         20  accepted in evidence.

         21            MR. NIEMANN:    No objection.

         22            MR. PETROVIC:   Did you graduate from the

         23  Faculty of Machine Engineering in Zagreb in 1973?

         24       A.   Yes, on 12 April 1973, I graduated from the

         25  Faculty of Machine Engineering and Shipbuilding in

Page 2353

          1  Zagreb.

          2       Q.   Would you just answer "Yes" or "No" to my

          3  questions, please -- the answer to that one was "Yes".

          4  Where were you employed in the course of your

          5  professional career?

          6       A.   Until 1991, when I left Borovo Naselje,

          7  I worked in the Borovo plant.

          8       Q.   A little slower, please.

          9       A.   From 1973, until the war broke out, in the

         10  region of Vukovar, I worked in the Borovo Cooperative.

         11       Q.   Where did you live?

         12       A.   I lived in Borovo Naselje.

         13       Q.   Can you tell us what the cooperative of

         14  Borovo means for Vukovar and the Vukovar environment?

         15       A.   Well, it is the footwear-producing factory

         16  company and, for the municipality of Vukovar, it was

         17  the basic protagonist of the municipality's development

         18  and economy.  At the time, it had some 23,000 employees

         19  and, of that number, 17,000 workers were from Borovo

         20  Naselje, Vukovar and the immediate environs.  As I have

         21  already said, it was the basic protagonist of the

         22  region's development and the economy of the

         23  municipality of Vukovar as a whole.

         24       Q.   How many people worked in the company?

         25       A.   They were from Vukovar, Borovo Naselje and

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          1  the villages 10 to 15 kilometres away and there were

          2  17,000 employees from this region.

          3       Q.   What functions did you perform in the Borovo

          4  company?

          5       A.   Well, practically all of them.  I, first of

          6  all, was in the projects department, then I was the

          7  deputy manager of the cooperative, and in a word I went

          8  through all the phases, from an engineer to the

          9  managerial posts and, happily for me, I also performed

         10  another function, by virtue of executive power and

         11  authority vested in me in the Borovo company.

         12       Q.   When and why were you replaced as the second

         13  man in charge of Borovo?

         14       A.   I was replaced at the end of June 1991, and

         15  the basis for my replacement -- on the basis of the

         16  executive board which was nominated by the agency for

         17  restructuring of the Republic of Croatia, when the

         18  complete management organ of the Borovo company were

         19  replaced along with the director-general, Mr. Zdravko

         20  Egic and in my assessment, let me say for national

         21  reasons and for ethnic reasons, because I was an ethnic

         22  Serb.

         23       Q.   Who replaced you in your post?

         24       A.   The director-general and deputy were members

         25  of the Croatian ethnic group and a new executive board

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          1  was set up by the agency for restructuring, as I said a

          2  moment ago.

          3       Q.   Were there any other replacements in the

          4  Borovo company?

          5       A.   At that particular time, there were no more

          6  replacements in Borovo, but it was just the intention

          7  that the new leadership perform to hand out all the

          8  directors of the work organisation's papers, which

          9  stated that they would be performing the duties as

         10  deputy directors and so on, but, as I left Borovo in

         11  August, I do not know whether this was actually done.

         12       Q.   What was the criterion for distributing

         13  individuals at the highest posts?  Was it according to

         14  their working ability, or some other criterion?

         15       A.   Well, actually, when I was replaced and when

         16  the general manager was replaced, it was not by virtue

         17  of their professional ability, but national

         18  affiliation.

         19       Q.   Were any of the employees of Borovo company

         20  arrested?

         21       A.   Yes, there were arrests in concrete terms at

         22  the end, that is to say on 31 May, the director of

         23  production for car tyres, Mr. Milan Miljevic, was

         24  arrested.  He was physically tortured.  On 1 June he

         25  was released and there were barricades set up at the

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          1  time between Borovo Selo and Borovo Naselje and he was

          2  maltreated along with his driver, and on 2 July, they

          3  intended to arrest the director of the leather footwear

          4  factory, Mr. Mirko Vujanovi, who, thanks to me, was

          5  taken out of Borovo Naselje and taken by train from

          6  Vinkovci to Novi Sad.

          7       Q.   Were there cases when the buildings were

          8  mined -- buildings belonging to the Serb population,

          9  were they blown up?

         10       A.   Yes, this did happen.

         11       Q.   If you can give us some concrete examples?

         12       A.   I know that a cafe bar was blown up, that is

         13  to say, a restaurant across the road from the bus

         14  station in Vukovar, and I also know that a kiosk where

         15  the paper "Politika" was sold was also blown up.

         16       Q.   Can you explain what "Politika" is?

         17       A.   It is a daily newspaper issued by the

         18  Politika Newspaper Publishing House and this kiosk sold

         19  newspapers coming from Belgrade -- the newspaper

         20  Politika.  I also know that a restaurant was blown up

         21  -- it was a restaurant for the preparation of cold

         22  food and snacks, where once again the proprietor was of

         23  Serb nationality.

         24       Q.   Were there similar instances; were there

         25  instances of killing of Serbs in Vukovar?

Page 2357

          1       A.   Yes, there was.

          2       Q.   Can you give us an example?

          3       A.   At the beginning of July, I do not know

          4  whether it was on 1 or 2 July, a man was killed, that

          5  is to say, a worker of an enterprise called Nama, it

          6  was a chain of department stores in Vukovar and he

          7  worked in the weapons department and he was killed on

          8  the threshold of his house on 1 or 2 July --

          9  Mr. Jakovljevic, nicknamed "Drakica".   I know that

         10  because his child went to school with my own child and

         11  that is why I know of that particular case.

         12       Q.   Do you know whether there was talk of who had

         13  killed him?

         14       A.   Well, it was said that the killing, the

         15  murder, was performed by the members of the HDZ, but

         16  who actually did the killing and in what way I do not

         17  really know.

         18       Q.   Could you tell us something about the

         19  atmosphere in Borovo Naselje where you lived at the

         20  time, that is to say, the summer of 1991?

         21       A.   I can tell you that the atmosphere from --

         22       Q.   A little slower, please.

         23       A.   From April onwards, the atmosphere was fairly

         24  frustrating -- it was tense, because, in the evening

         25  hours, at dusk, the extremist members of the HDZ, or in

Page 2358

          1  fact -- shot -- there was rifle fire in Borovo

          2  Naselje.  This led to fear and, of course, people, not

          3  only the Serbs but the Croats as well, were afraid of

          4  this general state of affairs and this was done by the

          5  extremists -- ultra extremists, because this did not

          6  suit anybody's purposes, nor did it --

          7       Q.   Were there attempts to solve conflicts

          8  peaceably?

          9       A.   Yes, there were attempts of this kind in

         10  February and March.  For example, a joint meeting was

         11  held at the initiative of the Secretary for National

         12  Defence at the time, Mr. Zivko Sekulic, to make a

         13  proclamation by which these inter-nationality

         14  relationships should be calmed down so as to avoid

         15  adverse effects.  One of the participants at this

         16  meeting was myself and 25 or 30 of us signed this

         17  document and this was published in the local Vukovar

         18  papers.

         19       Q.   Why did you have to leave Borovo Naselje?

         20       A.   I left Borovo Naselje because I felt afraid

         21  -- when the situation with the directors and managers

         22  of the Borovo company happened, I was afraid, and in

         23  actual practice, on 7 August, I used a business trip to

         24  Belgrade to leave and I stayed in Serbia -- I remained

         25  in Serbia and did not return to Borovo Naselje.

Page 2359

          1       Q.   How long have you known Slavko Dokmanovic?

          2       A.   I have known Slavko Dokmanovic from 1990,

          3  after the multi-Party elections took place in Croatia

          4  -- he was nominated President of the assembly of the

          5  municipality of Vukovar.

          6       Q.   When did you start closer cooperation?

          7       A.   Well, I began to cooperate closely with

          8  Mr. Dokmanovic in 1991, when inter-nationality

          9  relationships began to come to a head and barricades

         10  were set up and it was difficult for people to come to

         11  work because of the barricades and we tried, via the

         12  municipality organs, to suggest to the existing

         13  Government of the Republic of Croatia to try and calm

         14  tensions and to try and establish normal inter-human

         15  and inter-ethnic relationships and to ensure production

         16  to function normally in Borovo.  So my contacts with

         17  Mr. Dokmanovic were exclusively of an economic nature

         18  from the aspects of business and the normal running of

         19  production in the Borovo company.  We had no other

         20  conversations.

         21       Q.   How long did you continue contact with

         22  Mr. Dokmanovic?

         23       A.   Well, my relations with Dokmanovic went on up

         24  to some time in May, after the ignominious events of

         25  2 May in Borovo Selo.  After that, I did not have

Page 2360

          1  occasion to meet Mr. Dokmanovic, so somewhere from mid

          2  May I went to the Municipal Assembly -- and I

          3  contacted --

          4       Q.   Who did you contact?

          5       A.   I had contacts with his Vice-President,

          6  Mr. Vidic -- his nickname was Bili -- and I discussed

          7  the problems that were of the same nature as the ones

          8  that I had been discussing with Mr. Dokmanovic.  So, in

          9  practical terms, I talked to Vidic until I was

         10  replaced, that is to say, until the end of June 1991.

         11       Q.   When were you mobilised and in what unit?

         12       A.   I was mobilised on 15 September 1991.  I was

         13  taken to the Vukovar barracks and, from there, I was

         14  taken to a unit, a detachment, the Petrova Gora

         15  detachment.  Let me just say that as I was previously

         16  included in the frameworks of the Vukovar detachment,

         17  that is to say, Vukovar's Territorial Defence, in

         18  previous years, as a reservist captain, then according

         19  to the same initiative I was sent, probably, to that

         20  particular detachment.

         21       Q.   Where was the detachment located and what

         22  were your functions?

         23       A.   The detachment was located in Petrova Gora --

         24  the street's name was Petrova Gora and that is where

         25  the detachment takes its name from.  My duties were

Page 2361

          1  logistics.  I was a technician -- my duty was to supply

          2  the detachment with food, clothing, fuel, lubricants

          3  and so on and so forth.  Later on, of course, I did

          4  distribute the humanitarian aid that came in.

          5       Q.   Who was the commander of the unit?

          6       A.   Under the guard brigades when I came, that

          7  is, 1 October, and up to that date, I do not know what

          8  the command actually was.

          9       Q.   The Guard Brigade belongs to the Yugoslav

         10  People's Army?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Did you see Slavko Dokmanovic during your

         13  stay in Vukovar as a fighter of that particular unit?

         14       A.   I did not see Mr. Dokmanovic in Vukovar at

         15  all.  I saw Mr. Dokmanovic on one or two occasions in

         16  Erdut, where the Government was stationed of the then

         17  Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, and I met

         18  him in passing, because I would be on my way to a

         19  Ministry to ask for diesel fuel and petrol for the

         20  unit.

         21       Q.   In going about amassing your supplies, did

         22  you visit the farming cooperatives around the area of

         23  Vukovar?

         24       A.   Yes, well, we used supplies from local

         25  sources -- those local sources as far as food is

Page 2362

          1  concerned is what we found in Vukovar proper, and the

          2  surrounding villages, and of course the farms that were

          3  nearby.  It was the Ovcara pig-rearing farm and the

          4  Jakobovac farm and on these farming cooperatives, so

          5  I went there to try and get the necessary meat, whether

          6  pork or beef.

          7       Q.   At these cooperative farms, did you see any

          8  military units stationed there?

          9       A.   Yes, there were military units, but how they

         10  were deployed, I do not really know, but they were

         11  stationed in the environs, because this whole area

         12  behind Vukovar -- there were units there.

         13       Q.   Was there any farming mechanisation on the

         14  cooperatives that you visited?

         15       A.   Well, I did not, to tell you the truth, pay

         16  attention to this, but there was the usual farming

         17  mechanisation that I saw in peacetime before war broke

         18  out, which means tractors and all the other machines,

         19  combine harvesters and so on -- other agricultural

         20  machines that are used.  I did not notice anything

         21  different, more or less, that had existed in peacetime.

         22       Q.   Was there water and electricity in the

         23  villages around Vukovar?

         24       A.   Let us make a distinction here.  Water and

         25  electricity, as it once existed in urban terms, that is

Page 2363

          1  to say, from the waterworks of Vukovar, taking water to

          2  the surrounding villages, the distribution network for

          3  electricity, this was not possible at that time for the

          4  simple reason that individual power stations and cable

          5  units were severed, due to the war activities, and so

          6  there was no electricity and, as there was no

          7  electricity, the pumps at the waterworks were not

          8  functioning.

          9            The electricity that we had in Vukovar and

         10  the water that we had was from the wells, that is to

         11  say, water would be pumped by a hand pump from the

         12  wells.

         13            As far as electricity that existed, there

         14  were power generators at certain locations run on the

         15  basis of petrol and so individual buildings had a bit

         16  of electricity, but in fact there was no water or

         17  electricity.  I left Vukovar at the end of January

         18  1992, and I believe that, until April, they had no

         19  water or electricity.

         20       Q.   Thank you.  Just speak a little more slowly,

         21  please.

         22       A.   I am sorry, I seem to lose myself.

         23       Q.   Who was in charge of the town after the war

         24  operations, do you know?

         25       A.   Throughout the war --

Page 2364

          1       Q.   During the war operations and later on?

          2       A.   There was military rule, particularly

          3  afterwards, when the war operations had ended and when

          4  the Guard Brigade had withdrawn, then the military

          5  authority was taken over by the Kragujevac Brigade.

          6  The commander was Colonel Vujanovic.

          7       Q.   Do you know when he came --

          8       A.   That is alright, yes, he came after the war

          9  operations.

         10       Q.   When the Guard Brigade had withdrawn?

         11       A.   Yes, somewhere between 24 and 26 November.

         12  I do not know the exact date.

         13       Q.   Were there any civilian organs of power and

         14  authority in the Vukovar region after the war

         15  operations?

         16       A.   After the war operations -- that is to say,

         17  during the war operations, there was no civilian

         18  authority.  Civilian authority began to be set up at

         19  the beginning of December 1991 and the military

         20  government had as its task to enable the creation of

         21  normal living conditions, and to prepare new organs of

         22  civilian government and to enable those who had fled

         23  Vukovar and Borovo Naselje and the surrounding villages

         24  to return.  All I know is that some time at the

         25  beginning of December --

Page 2365

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:   May I ask you to slow down,

          2  otherwise the interpreters cannot interpret what you

          3  say.  Thank you.  Please go on.

          4            THE WITNESS:    President, I have to

          5  apologise.  I simply seem to lose myself.  Let me just

          6  finish what I set out to say.  So the civilian

          7  authorities were non-existent, the military rule was

          8  supposed to solve this problem and then, in early

          9  December, the Executive Council of the Municipal

         10  Assembly was formed.  It had five members and

         11  I remember that the President was Mr. Rade Bibic -- he

         12  was appointed the President.  I cannot tell you

         13  anything more about that because I did not participate

         14  in that and I did not know what happened.

         15            MR. PETROVIC:   What happened to your property

         16  and the property of other people who left Vukovar and

         17  the Vukovar area?

         18       A.   As far as my property is concerned, two

         19  things happened.  On the one hand, in July, when the

         20  first onslaught was happening, the National Guard

         21  Corps, the Croatian ZNG, entered my house, because they

         22  thought I had weapons and they destroyed all my

         23  furniture, so that I could not use it any more that was

         24  one of the reasons that I had fled.

         25            The second thing that happened in the course

Page 2366

          1  of the combat operations, due to bombardment and

          2  shelling, a part of my property was destroyed, so I

          3  lost about half of my property through looting and just

          4  the other half I lost through bombardment, and the

          5  other inhabitants of Borovo Naselje and Vukovar shared

          6  my fate and of the surrounding villages, so those

          7  people who were affected by the war operations and,

          8  those who did not, did not suffer that fate.

          9            MR. PETROVIC:  This concludes my examination

         10  of Mr. Antic.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Niemann.

         12               Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN

         13       Q.   You say that the Government was in Erdut --

         14  you said that a moment ago; is that right?

         15       A.   Yes, the Government -- I mean the appropriate

         16  Ministries and the Government, they sometimes met in

         17  Erdut and, from time to time, I went there in October

         18  1991.  To be more specific, I was there once or twice

         19  at the most -- I cannot give you an exact number of

         20  times -- and the reason why I went there was to ask for

         21  assistance to be given -- I do not know from which

         22  sources -- some diesel fuel, because we needed it for

         23  the vehicles we had, most of all for the medical

         24  vehicles.

         25       Q.   And the supplies that you were seeking were

Page 2367

          1  provided by the Government, were they?

          2       A.   No, no, the Government never provided any

          3  supplies, but I applied to the appropriate Ministries

          4  in the Government to get me in touch with somebody --

          5  some humanitarian organisation -- which would then

          6  provide the resources that I needed, that I sought.

          7            For instance, if we are talking about -- if

          8  there was a company which was under their jurisdiction,

          9  or if it was a company in the Republic of Serbia, then

         10  I tried to solve the problem in this way.  They put me

         11  in touch with those people, I talked to these people,

         12  and I asked them to donate those resources for free,

         13  because we did not have the funds to buy those things,

         14  and this is the way I proceeded, so I only went there a

         15  couple of times -- this is not something that we should

         16  be talking about, because we are not talking about huge

         17  quantities.

         18            I mostly tried to solve those problems from

         19  local resources, because there were some local

         20  resources left, but there were times, for instance, in

         21  late October, when the local resources were

         22  insufficient, because we had already used them up.

         23       Q.   You saw Mr. Dokmanovic when you were seeking

         24  these supplies -- seeking to obtain these supplies?

         25       A.   I met Mr. Dokmanovic at that time there,

Page 2368

          1  because Mr. Dokmanovic was the Minister of Agriculture,

          2  so I did not have anything in common with him -- we

          3  just met in passing, shook hands and said "hello" as

          4  people who had known each other.  I did not have any

          5  other activities or contacts with Mr. Dokmanovic.  This

          6  is all that I had with him, maybe a second or two

          7  -- "Good afternoon, how are you?  What are you doing"

          8  -- nothing special.

          9       Q.   As Minister for Agriculture, he was one of

         10  the Ministers who was able to put you in touch with

         11  people with supplies such as diesel and so forth?

         12       A.   Well, he probably could, but I did not ask

         13  him to do so, nor was that my intention when I went

         14  there.  I never discussed those things with

         15  Mr. Dokmanovic.  I really did not.

         16       Q.   You said you discussed these things with the

         17  Government and Mr. Dokmanovic was in the Government.

         18  Tell me who it is that you had your discussions with --

         19  which Ministry?

         20       A.   Alright.  That was not your question.  I will

         21  now give you an answer.  At that time, I talked to

         22  Mr. Devetak, Vitomir Devetak.  I discussed the

         23  possibility of obtaining such assistance from him.  He

         24  was in the Ministry of Industry or something like that,

         25  and I discussed those things with him, so I was there

Page 2369

          1  where he was and I discussed those things with his

          2  associates.  I pursued those avenues of obtaining

          3  assistance, so, please, at that time, I only said

          4  "hello" to Mr. Dokmanovic as a friend -- by a "friend"

          5  I mean we knew each other from Vukovar.  I had not

          6  known Mr. Dokmanovic until the time when he was

          7  appointed the President of the municipality.

          8       Q.   You also said in your evidence that towards

          9  the middle to late 1991, there was an increase in

         10  tension in the "inter-nationality relationships".  Can

         11  you just tell me what it is you mean by that?

         12       A.   No, not until mid 1991 -- until the end of

         13  1991, this resulted in armed hostilities, but the

         14  tensions began in 1990.  They began to crop up at the

         15  time when multi-Party elections were being prepared in

         16  Yugoslavia.  There were parties which had a nationalist

         17  programme and this has caused increased inter-ethnic

         18  tensions.  I do not know what the previous witnesses

         19  have said -- I do not know how familiar you are with

         20  the situation, but in May 1990 the elections took place

         21  and, as far as our municipality is concerned, there

         22  were two basic parties -- two main parties, the

         23  Croatian Democratic Union and the former Party of

         24  Democratic Changes, that is Racan's Party and in the

         25  municipality of Vukovar we had only two options --

Page 2370

          1  either to vote for HDZ or for the Party of Democratic

          2  Changes.

          3            I have to tell you that most of the Serbian

          4  population voted for the Party of Democratic Changes

          5  because there was no alternative and also some of the

          6  people who in that people were, so to speak, of

          7  Yugoslav orientation, they also voted for that Party.

          8  The reason for that was simply that some of the people

          9  who were involved in the Croatian Democratic Union

         10  Party overly stressed this national motive and by

         11  stressing that motive, they implied something else --

         12  the other side -- and the result was a contradiction to

         13  those people who stressed something else, because we in

         14  Borovo Naselje, we all lived side by side for years, we

         15  were neighbours, people of all nations and religions

         16  until that time when that happened and until that time

         17  nobody asked other people what their nationality was.

         18  That is what I meant.

         19       Q.   Okay.  I think your point is that the HDZ

         20  represented people of Croat nationality?

         21       A.   No, no, that is not what I said.  I just

         22  wanted to say that, to me, it was not clear why, within

         23  the HDZ Party, there were some extremists who created

         24  this tension among us, and that was the reason why, in

         25  February and March, we had this joint meeting where

Page 2371

          1  intellectuals tried to calm down those nationalist

          2  passions, in a way, because, as soon as one side

          3  started to express their nationalist feeling, the other

          4  side also responded.  I cannot give you a better

          5  explanation.

          6       Q.   But there were people of extreme nationalist

          7  views on either side, were there not?

          8       A.   Yes, yes, of course -- on the Serbian side

          9  I have to say that, but normal human beings could not

         10  accept such nationalist motives.

         11       Q.   The brigade that was at Petrova Gora, was

         12  that Territorial Defence, or was that JNA?

         13       A.   Well, at that time, it was not a brigade; it

         14  was a detachment -- we called it the Petrova Gora

         15  detachment.  At the time when it was formed,

         16  established, it had about 400 people.  It was under the

         17  command of the JNA, and I cannot treat it as being part

         18  of the Territorial Defence, so, according to the

         19  conception -- I have now to give you an explanation --

         20  according to the conception of All People's Defence,

         21  the Territorial Defence was part of the normal armed

         22  forces.  It was a constituent part, so both the Regular

         23  Army and the Territorial Defence were treated -- if

         24  there was an attack, it had to defend the country.

         25  That was the doctrine and, before the war, I was the

Page 2372

          1  chief of the technical service in the Vukovar Brigade,

          2  so it was a territorial unit.  What that means is that

          3  according to some military aspects, it had to be

          4  stationed in Vukovar, and it does not mean that it was

          5  a paramilitary unit.

          6       Q.   I did not suggest for one minute --

          7       A.   I do not know if I was clear enough.

          8       Q.   I did not suggest it was a paramilitary

          9  unit.  The command of the Petrova Gora detachment or

         10  what ultimately it became was -- the ultimate command

         11  was the same command as the command of the Guards'

         12  Brigade; that is right, is it not?

         13       A.   No.  The command of the Guards' Brigade was

         14  located in Negoslavci -- that is where the headquarters

         15  were located, and the commands of the detachment -- the

         16  command did not exist in Vukovar, in practical terms.

         17  You knew who was the commander of a company.  I was in

         18  charge of providing supplies, fuel, lubricants, food,

         19  footwear, for the soldiers -- I had to prepare places

         20  where those soldiers could have baths and where they

         21  could be fed, but the command was not there -- the

         22  command was in Negoslavci.

         23       Q.   I was not ask you where the command was,

         24  I was asking you what the ultimate command was.  There

         25  is a confusion.  I did not suggest they were at Petrova

Page 2373

          1  Gora.  I am just saying your ultimate command came

          2  under the command of the Guards' Brigade -- that is

          3  what you said in your evidence?

          4       A.   Yes, that is right -- the Petrova Gora

          5  detachment had a command.  Our command was in Vukovar,

          6  but we were under the command of the Guards' Brigade.

          7  The command of my detachment had to be stationed

          8  somewhere -- their headquarters was in the Petrova Gora

          9  street.  I do not know, Mr. Prosecutor, maybe I do not

         10  understand what you are saying.

         11       Q.   I think you do not understand what I am

         12  saying.  I am not asking you about locations; I am

         13  asking you about command and you have answered my

         14  question, so we can move on.

         15            The commander of the Guards' Brigade was

         16  commanded by Colonel Mrksic and Major Sljivancanin, was

         17  it not?

         18       A.   Oh, so that is what you are asking.  There

         19  has been a misunderstanding.  The commander of the

         20  Guards' Brigade was Colonel Mrksic, that is right and

         21  Lieutenant-Colonel Sljivancanin, I do not know what he

         22  was, because I was not in touch with them.  I think he

         23  was in charge of security, because we did not get into

         24  contact.  I just know that he was my commander in chief

         25  -- my superior officer.  If that is what you wanted to

Page 2374

          1  ask me, that is the truth.

          2       Q.   And did you know other commanders who were

          3  operational at the time, and, firstly, commander --

          4  Captain Miroljub Vujovic?

          5       A.   Miroljub Vujovic, yes, I knew him.

          6       Q.   Did you have much contact with him?

          7       A.   Well, I did have some contact with him,

          8  because I supplied his unit with food, and clothes,

          9  footwear.

         10       Q.   And was he on a parallel level of rank with

         11  you?

         12       A.   Well, at that time, he was a commanding

         13  officer of a unit -- I do not know whether he was at

         14  the parallel level with me -- I do not know.  We

         15  probably were, because I was in charge of logistics and

         16  he was in charge of a combat unit, so we probably were

         17  at the same level, in a manner of speaking.

         18       Q.   And, like you, he was also subordinate to the

         19  Guards' Brigade?

         20       A.   Yes -- well, all the units that operated in

         21  Vukovar were subordinated to the Guards' Brigade

         22  command -- whether we are talking about the Petrova

         23  Gora detachment, the 2nd, 4th, 5th detachment, it does

         24  not matter, all of them were subordinate to that

         25  brigade.

Page 2375

          1       Q.   Stanko Vujanovic, did you know him?

          2       A.   Yes, I knew him, he was a commander of a

          3  unit, a combat unit.

          4       Q.   Similar to the situation that Miroljub

          5  Vujovic --

          6       A.   Yes, Miroljub -- yes, that is right.

          7       Q.   And Stanko Vujanovic was also subordinate to

          8  the Guards' Brigade?

          9       A.   Yes, all of them were subordinate to that

         10  Brigade.

         11       Q.   Did you ever have any discussions with either

         12  Stanko Vujanovic or Miroljub Vujovic on or after 20

         13  November 1991?

         14       A.   Well, virtually after the end of the war

         15  operations in Vukovar, I was not in touch with them any

         16  longer, because, after that, pursuant to a decision of

         17  the military administration, I was assigned to go back

         18  to the Borovo company and to take over, so, in fact, in

         19  that period, when a commission was formed to clean up

         20  the entire area after the war operations, I worked with

         21  that commission and I also prepared the Borovo company

         22  for the clean-up and for renewal of the production, so

         23  I was no longer in Vukovar after 24th -- on 25 November

         24  -- I was only in Borovo company and in Borovo Naselje

         25  and I stayed in that region until mid January 1992,

Page 2376

          1  when I left the region and I never came back.

          2       Q.   Who was it -- you said that it was pursuant

          3  to a decision of the military administration that

          4  caused you to go back to the Borovo company.  Can you

          5  be more precise and tell me who it was that gave you

          6  that order -- who was responsible --

          7       A.   Well, the order was issued by the commander

          8  of the Vukovar town, Mr. Milorad -- I think he was a

          9  colonel by rank -- Milorad Vujnovic.  He came there as

         10  part of the Kragujevac Brigade and it was probably

         11  according to the military formation he was put in

         12  charge of the town and he gave me this order.

         13       Q.   You said that Rade Bibic was appointed

         14  President of the Executive Council of the municipality

         15  of Vukovar.  Was Miroljub Vujovic that we spoke of a

         16  moment ago also appointed to the Executive Council?

         17       A.   It was the Executive Council -- yes -- it was

         18  some kind of initial council which was supposed to set

         19  up all those civilian authorities -- I know about

         20  Mr. Bibic, I know there were five members but I do not

         21  know who were the other members aside from him, because

         22  I was not there at the time, and I did not take part in

         23  all that.  I do not know whether Miroljub was a member

         24  or not.

         25            MR. NIEMANN:    I have no further questions.

Page 2377

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Petrovic, any questions?

          2            MR. PETROVIC:   No, thank you.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:   I have a few questions.

          4            First of all, I would like to point out that

          5  in the English translation of your written statement,

          6  which has been admitted into evidence, there is a

          7  printing mistake on the penultimate line -- it should

          8  read "January 1992", and not "1991".

          9            My first question relates to what you said a

         10  few minutes ago.  You said that you saw military units

         11  stationed around Vukovar after you were mobilised for

         12  the JNA, and my question is as follows:  what sort of

         13  military units were these ones -- are you referring to

         14  JNA units, or, also, paramilitary units?

         15       A.   No, in my opinion, these were the units of

         16  the JNA, but I really did not check -- I did not check

         17  which units they were.  My role was to provide supplies

         18  and, as far as Ovcara was concerned, there was a

         19  pig-breeding farm there and I went there to see whether

         20  I can obtain some pork, whether they can kill a pig or

         21  two so I can provide food for the people I was supposed

         22  to supply, and I know that there were some units there,

         23  I suppose it was the JNA, because there was also some

         24  artillery station there.  It was not possible for some

         25  other units to be there -- it was only the JNA, because

Page 2378

          1  nobody else had that kind of weapons.  That is my

          2  assumption, my opinion.  It does not mean that it was

          3  in fact true, but, in my opinion, it cannot be any

          4  other way.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:   So, in the three months when

          6  you were there you never came across military units

          7  dressed in a different way from the normal uniform of

          8  JNA units -- namely, paramilitary units, people who

          9  were a bit different from the JNA regular members --

         10  you never saw such paramilitary units?

         11       A.   Well, not in essence, because everybody was

         12  dressed in the kind of uniforms that the JNA had, so

         13  there were not people dressed in any other way.  If

         14  somebody was mobilised, then they were not given the

         15  uniform at that very moment when he was mobilised but

         16  only when he came to Vukovar, then he got his uniform

         17  in Vukovar.  I gave him the uniform there, out of our

         18  warehouses.

         19            JUDGE CASSESE:   When you speak of being

         20  "mobilised", are you also referring to members of the

         21  so-called Territorial Defence?

         22       A.   I mean all those who received their call-ups

         23  and members of Territorial Defence and those who were

         24  in regular military units -- those who were drafted in

         25  the army at that time -- that is what I mean.

Page 2379

          1  According to the doctrine at that time, it was one and

          2  the same -- there was no difference -- Territorial

          3  Defence and regular armed forces, it was one and the

          4  same.  There was no difference.  The name "Territorial

          5  Defence" was applied, because that unit was supposed to

          6  stay in its territory.

          7            If we are talking about the Vukovar Brigade,

          8  for instance, and if there are combat operations, the

          9  Vukovar Territorial Defence has to remain in the

         10  Vukovar municipality.  It cannot be deployed in other

         11  areas -- Vinkovci, Nasice, Zupanja -- whatever.  In

         12  those areas, there were brigades which belonged to that

         13  territory.  According to the doctrines that were valid

         14  at that time, they were all armed forces units and the

         15  question is only when they were mobilised.  They all

         16  received their call-ups.

         17       Q.   A different question.  You said that you went

         18  a couple of times to Erdut in October 1991 to meet

         19  members of the Ministry of Industry and you also saw

         20  Mr. Dokmanovic.  You spoke of "Ministries".  Could you

         21  explain what Ministries these were -- did each Ministry

         22  have a building with staff, with people -- a sort of

         23  administrative chain of command, so that the Minister

         24  would issue orders to his staff and so on?

         25       A.   Perhaps I am not going to be able to explain

Page 2380

          1  some things as well as I should like -- not because

          2  I do not want to, but because I was not acquainted with

          3  the set-up.  But, at the time, there was a Government of

          4  Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem which,

          5  within its frameworks, had the corresponding

          6  Ministries.  What competencies the Ministries had

          7  compared to the Yugoslav People's Army and whether it

          8  had any competencies at all, I do not know -- I do not

          9  think it had any competencies, any authority, because,

         10  in fact, when they wanted Ministers in the Government

         11  to undertake an action with the military organs, they

         12  were just dead letter on paper, nobody recognised them

         13  at all and this is what happened in Vukovar --

         14  everything that happened and everything that was done

         15  was exclusively under the direct jurisdiction of the

         16  Guard Brigade.  It was the Brigade which, in practical

         17  terms, did all the commanding for the war operations as

         18  well and it received orders from above -- whether it

         19  did or did not I do not know, because I was too far

         20  down on the ladder to know things of this kind and to

         21  be told of things like this.

         22            In the Ministries that I went to, that is,

         23  that particular Ministry, it was the Ministry of

         24  Industry, I went to that Ministry to ask for aid and

         25  assistance and to ask for their suggestions as to who

Page 2381

          1  would be able to give me the material I needed, but

          2  I just happened to meet Mr. Dokmanovic in passing.

          3            I did not ask him what his functions were,

          4  but I was told that he was Minister of Agriculture at

          5  the time, so, by virtue of my post and functions in

          6  Vukovar, I had no common points with Mr. Dokmanovic --

          7  we just met as good friends, we shook hands, asked each

          8  other how we were, and that was all.  So, if I was in

          9  Erdut for two or three times, of that two or three

         10  times, I probably met Mr. Dokmanovic once or perhaps

         11  twice.  I cannot really answer you, because six or

         12  seven years have gone by.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  One final

         14  question:  when you met Mr. Dokmanovic in Erdut, how was

         15  he dressed -- was he wearing a suit, like the one you

         16  are now wearing, or what sort of clothes was he

         17  wearing?

         18       A.   I do not know, I just cannot remember.

         19  I think he was wearing the clothes that everybody else

         20  was wearing -- whether he had a military or a civilian

         21  uniform, I do not really know -- I just cannot remember

         22  that detail.  I cannot give you an answer to that

         23  question -- I do not know.

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:    Talking about uniforms, when

         25  you yourself were in charge of supplies, as you say,

Page 2382

          1  what uniform were you wearing during your duties?

          2       A.   A military uniform, the uniform of the

          3  Yugoslav People's Army, and all the insignia belonging

          4  -- the rank of captain, as I had in peacetime, because

          5  I am a reserve captain, according to military

          6  hierarchy, so to speak.

          7            JUDGE MUMBA:    Thank you.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:   To go back to a question

          9  I put about the clothes Mr. Dokmanovic was wearing,

         10  would you say that, if he was wearing a military

         11  uniform, this would have struck you, because, as a

         12  civilian, a member of a Government, Minister of

         13  Agriculture, he was probably not expected to wear a

         14  military uniform, so in a way, although you said you

         15  cannot remember, probably is it a fair assumption to

         16  say that, had he worn a military uniform, this would

         17  have struck you as something a bit odd -- a member of a

         18  civilian Government wearing a military uniform?

         19       A.   Your Honour, I really cannot give you an

         20  answer to that question, but, at that particular time

         21  of the war operations, most people were wearing

         22  military uniforms.  Now, whether Mr. Dokmanovic, on that

         23  particular occasion, was wearing a uniform or civilian

         24  clothing, I just cannot say.  There are details that

         25  you do not focus on at times like that.  I could not

Page 2383

          1  expect a question like that, because I never thought

          2  about it.  If you were to ask me what somebody who was

          3  with me in Vukovar was wearing, I probably would not be

          4  able to give you an answer there -- they are details

          5  you just do not focus on at the time.  I am sorry, but

          6  I really do not know.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  Any further

          8  questions?  I assume there is no objection to the

          9  witness being released?  Mr. Antic, thank you so much

         10  for coming here to give evidence.  You may now be

         11  released.

         12                  (The witness withdrew)

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Are you calling Mr. Bulajic?

         14  While we are waiting for him, let me again stress that,

         15  since he is not a fact witness but an expert witness

         16  and we have already been provided with a written

         17  statement on the historical and psychological reasons

         18  for the political behaviour of Serbs in Croatia,

         19  I think we should not spend too much time on this

         20  particular testimony, because, judging from what he put

         21  on paper, this is material which we have already heard

         22  many times -- these are things which we have heard.

         23  I hope that he will give concise answers.  I will ask

         24  him to be very short in his answers.

         25            MR. FILA:   I am responsible for my own

Page 2384

     1  questions and they will be short and precise.

          2                (The witness entered court)

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:   May I ask you to stand up

          4  and make the solemn declaration, please?

          5            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

          6  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

          7  the truth.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:   Dr. Bulajic, before we start,

          9  may I ask you to be so kind as to be short, to give

         10  short answers to the questions of the Defence counsel

         11  and afterwards of the Prosecutor -- very short answers,

         12  thank you.  Mr. Fila?

         13                      DR MILAN BULAJIC

         14                    Examined by MR. FILA

         15       Q.   Mr. Bulajic -- sit down, please -- you can

         16  switch to channel 6.  Are you sitting comfortably, may

         17  we begin?  Good morning.  Did you graduate from the

         18  faculty of law in the Higher School of Journalism?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Did you write a doctoral thesis under the

         21  title of, "The Rights of People to Self-Determination"?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Were you in the diplomatic service of the

         24  SFRY from 1949 to 1987?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 2385

          1       Q.   Were you the main legal adviser to the

          2  Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the SFRY?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Where did your functions outside Yugoslavia

          5  within the diplomatic service take you?

          6       A.   First, I went to Washington in the United

          7  States of America.  I was the Secretary of the Embassy

          8  and legal adviser.  I was then posted to Indonesia, a

          9  Minister-Counsellor was my position there.  Thirdly,

         10  I was the Consul-General in New York.

         11       Q.   As a recognised legal man, were you a member

         12  of the Federal Council for Legislation?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   As well as the president of the Yugoslav

         15  Association for the Protection of Intellectual

         16  Property?

         17       A.   Yes -- and I am so today.

         18       Q.   A member of the Executive Board of the

         19  International Association for the Protection of

         20  Industrial Property?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Are you a member of the Executive Committee

         23  of the World Association for International Law?

         24       A.   I was.

         25       Q.   Were you the main rapporteur of the

Page 2386

          1  International Committee for the Legal Aspects of the

          2  New International Economic Order?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   Were you the second vice-president of the

          5  Organisation of World Peace through Law?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Were you the deputy president of the

          8  Committee of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences

          9  for collecting information on the genocide against the

         10  Serbian people and other nations of Yugoslavia in the

         11  20th century?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   Were you Secretary of the State Commission

         14  for War Crimes and Crimes of Genocide?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Do you now hold the post of Director of the

         17  Museum of the Victims of Genocide?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   And you are President of the Fund for

         20  Research into Genocide?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Were you the amicus curiae of the Yugoslav

         23  Government at the trial of Eichmann in Jerusalem in

         24  1961?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 2387

          1       Q.   Were you an observer of the Yugoslav

          2  Government at the trials of Ustashi for attacks on the

          3  Yugoslav military mission in West Berlin in 1970?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   And, also, at the trial of the Ustashi

          6  killers of the Yugoslav Ambassador, Mr. Rolovic, in

          7  Stockholm in 1971?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   Did you take part at the trial, as an

         10  observer, of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences

         11  and the Yugoslav Government for the Andrija Artukovic

         12  case, one of the men in Zagreb, and on behalf of the

         13  Yugoslav Government did you take part in discussions on

         14  the extradition of Artukovic in America before the

         15  court in South California of the United States of

         16  America in 1958?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Among others, did you publish the following

         19  scientific works: "Ustashi Crimes of Genocide and the

         20  Trial of Andrija Artukovic in 1986"; "The Jasenovac

         21  Myth of Franjo Tudjman"?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   "Jasenovac: What Happened"?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   "The Genocide Against the Orthodox Serbs and

Page 2388

          1  Other Nations in the Second World War"?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   "The System of Untruths in the System of

          4  Genocide"?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   "The Destruction of the Yugoslav State, Crime

          7  against Humanity and International Peace"?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   "The Mission of the Vatican to the

         10  Independent State of Croatia", "The Crime against

         11  Peace: The Case of the Former Yugoslavia", "The Right

         12  to Self-Determination and the United Nations"?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Is this your curriculum vitae and your

         15  bibliography?

         16       A.   Basically, yes -- among others, of course.

         17            MR. FILA:  (Handed).  Would you take a look at

         18  the document.

         19            THE REGISTRAR:    The document is marked D35.

         20            MR. FILA:   Is this your expert report, the

         21  one that you submitted in English and, on the back, in

         22  Serbian?  (Handed).

         23            THE REGISTRAR:    Document is marked D36 and

         24  the translation D36A.

         25            MR. FILA:   If there are no objections,

Page 2389

          1  I should like to ask the Tribunal to accept this as

          2  evidence.

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:   Any objection?

          4            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.

          6            MR. FILA:   Mr. Bulajic, we have studied your

          7  expert report, both the judges, the Defence and the

          8  Prosecution and myself, so we will dwell on it

          9  briefly.  Will you tell us, in brief, by one

         10  definition, what the system of Ustashi Jasenovac death

         11  camps in fact is -- in a sentence?

         12       A.   I will try.  The system of Croatian Ustashi

         13  death camps, in which Jasenovac is just one example,

         14  one of the death camps, about 210 to 240 square

         15  kilometres of mass graves, in which, in the most brutal

         16  manner possible, a genocide was performed by the same

         17  perpetrators, on three occasions, which is a world

         18  phenomenon, over Orthodox Serbs, Jews, gypsies or

         19  Romanies and is the most serious war crime over

         20  anti-fascists.

         21            MR. FILA:  Thank you.  I should like to ask

         22  the Chamber to show a film now -- the intent of the

         23  Defence is that everything you saw in the introduction

         24  -- you heard in the introduction, should be seen on

         25  the screen so that it would have the value and weight

Page 2390

          1  of evidence, if you agree.  May we see the film about

          2  Jasenovac?

          3                    (Videotape played)

          4            MR. FILA:   I would like this film to be a

          5  Defence exhibit -- it will be shown in May in extenso

          6  and it will be lasting for about 40 minutes.  We are

          7  just now showing this particular segment.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I am not sure of the

          9  relevance of this to this particular case.  If Mr. Fila

         10  could explain how it is relevant to the issues before

         11  this court, we may not have any objection, but we do

         12  have concerns; number 1, about the commentary which is

         13  offered in connection with it and, number 2, just

         14  primarily as to its relevance to the matter before the

         15  court.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  Mr. Fila, I also

         17  had the same misgivings or doubts.  Could you explain

         18  to us why this film would be relevant to our trial?

         19  This is part of history -- what happened in Jasenovac

         20  was part of history.  I do not know whether and to what

         21  extent it is material to our trial.

         22            MR. FILA:   Your Honours, first, I listened to

         23  expert Dr. Mark Wheeler, who explained the settlement of

         24  the Serbs in the 17th century, and this, according to

         25  the Prosecutor, was very important for this case.  The

Page 2391

          1  Prosecutor provided you with ethnic maps -- Croatian

          2  ones -- dating back to the 17th century.  There were

          3  also population migrations, the relationship between

          4  the number of Serbs and number of Croats in this

          5  century and this was submitted as evidence.

          6            In the written expert report of this witness,

          7  the reason is explained for the existence of this

          8  particular material as a basis for the Serbs' fear in

          9  1991, and from the questions that I shall be asking

         10  subsequently, you will see how important this is for

         11  the insecurity that the Serbs felt in the region in

         12  1991 and their reasons to rebel against the Croatian

         13  forces; because they were afraid that what happened in

         14  1941 would be repeated.

         15            From my next question, you will see how many

         16  people from Vukovar left their lives there and we are

         17  discussing Vukovar in the 20th century.  So, the

         18  question is highly relevant, if you wish to learn why

         19  the Serbs rose up in 1991.  Mr. Wheeler also told you

         20  that the fact -- and let me remind you of his

         21  statement, a catharsis of the Croatian people did not

         22  come about and nobody was punished for those crimes,

         23  creating a feeling of additional insecurity in the Serb

         24  population and please, I should like to draw attention

         25  to the Wheeler expert report, which is the

Page 2392

          1  Prosecution's evidence and that is why I am bringing

          2  this up -- Jasenovac has been brought up and it was

          3  contained in Dr. Wheeler's statement as well as the

          4  constitution and so on and so forth, so we must explain

          5  and know why the Serbs felt so insecure in 1991.  That

          6  is the reason.

          7            MR. WILLIAMSON:   If I might address a couple

          8  of points, briefly.  First of all, the Prosecution did

          9  not tender any maps anywhere near the 17th century.

         10  I am looking at the list of Prosecution exhibits.  We

         11  tendered a map of the territorial distribution of Serbs

         12  in Croatia in 1981, and a "Times" map of the Balkans,

         13  which is a current map.  The questions that were put to

         14  Mr. Wheeler, at the request of your Honours to keep it

         15  concise, started with the end of World War II and the

         16  formation of Yugoslavia.  It was only on

         17  cross-examination that Mr. Fila then went back to the

         18  14th century and introduced these whole subjects.

         19            It was designed only to give a brief

         20  historical perspective as to how Yugoslavia was formed,

         21  thus to put it in the context of the break-up, but the

         22  Prosecution did not enter into any questions or try to

         23  elicit information from this far back in history.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

         25  My own position, but I will consult with my fellow

Page 2393

          1  judges, is that of course it is useful to the court to

          2  have a very general picture of the historical

          3  background, yes, but very general.  The question we are

          4  now in a way discussing is the amount of evidence you

          5  intend to produce on the historical and political

          6  background.  This has very little relevance to our

          7  particular case, which is a case where we deal with the

          8  facts and legal issues, so therefore you must be aware

          9  of the degree to which we can go -- the extent to which

         10  we can go in accepting evidence.

         11            (Pause).

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:   Although we very much doubt

         13  the relevance of discussions or films on a period which

         14  is far away from the date we are concerned with,

         15  namely, 20 November 1991, we do allow you to admit this

         16  film into evidence, but with a strong appeal that you

         17  should try, as much as possible, to confine yourself to

         18  dealing with matters which are material to our case.

         19  Thank you.

         20            THE REGISTRAR:    The video will be marked

         21  D37.

         22            MR. FILA:   Thank you, your Honours.  I did

         23  not consider the Defence represents this as an

         24  illustration of what had happened in the sense that you

         25  asked for.

Page 2394

          1            I am just going to show you some books from

          2  that particular area, once again in the sense of

          3  illustration, for the purposes of illustration along

          4  with the film.

          5            As the director of the museum, you wrote a

          6  book about how many children lost their lives there,

          7  with the names and surnames -- is that the book?

          8       A.   Yes, it is.

          9            MR. FILA:  I would like to tender this -- the

         10  book just contains the names and surnames of the

         11  children who were killed -- of all three nations,

         12  Serbs, Jews and gypsies.  This is an illustration along

         13  with the films -- a supplementary illustration to back

         14  up the film.

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:   The Prosecution would have

         16  the same objection to these materials as well.  Unless

         17  this is being offered to show -- as a justification for

         18  killings in 1991, then perhaps we would have no

         19  objection, but if this is just being provided as

         20  historical perspective, again we lodge the same

         21  objection.

         22            MR. FILA:   I am not here to justify killings;

         23  I do not like murders of anyone, your Honours.

         24  I cannot justify the murdering of Indians, just as much

         25  as I cannot justify the killings of Jews and Serbs.  No

Page 2395

          1  murder is a good thing and it cannot be justified, so

          2  I never want to tender into evidence anything that

          3  would serve as a justification for murder.  This is

          4  just an illustration of something that left its trace

          5  in the Serbian people and in this spirit it is

          6  tendered, to make you understand better the events in

          7  1990 and 1991, the fear that was there.

          8            The last thing that I want to tender as

          9  supporting material is again a finding of the Academy

         10  of Sciences with the list of everything that happened

         11  there.

         12            Is this a book published by the Serbian

         13  Academy of Arts and Sciences?

         14            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Again, I apologise for

         15  adding on one more time -- in relation to our

         16  objection, also it goes to the fact that if this

         17  material is admitted, it certainly broadens the area

         18  which we have to cross-examine on.  If this is going

         19  into evidence, then I think we are going to feel

         20  obligated to have to try to counter it to some extent.

         21            MR. FILA:   Your Honours, if I may just

         22  add --

         23            (Pause).

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:   In light of the objections

         25  made by the Prosecutor and, also, because the court

Page 2396

          1  strongly feels that all this material is hardly

          2  relevant to the case, we cannot allow your admission

          3  into evidence of this list of names and so on.  So, it

          4  will not be admitted into evidence.

          5            I wonder whether you could -- we could have a

          6  break now, because we -- and resume in 20 minutes.  We

          7  stand adjourned.

          8            (10.10 a.m.)

          9                      (A short break)

         10            (10.35 a.m.)

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:   You may proceed, Mr. Fila.

         12            MR. FILA:   Mr. Bulajic, you will answer very

         13  briefly to my questions, please.  Were there victims

         14  from Vukovar in Jasenovac, because we are interested in

         15  the Vukovar area -- briefly, how many, what happened,

         16  et cetera?

         17       A.   If I may, the distinguished Prosecutor raised

         18  the question as to the documents and how far this was

         19  justified in light of the latter-day victims.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:   Could you please answer the

         21  question?

         22            MR. FILA:   What you have in mind is a more

         23  lengthy answer, but it is connected to Vukovar; were

         24  there victims from Vukovar, and how many?

         25       A.   Yes, there were and that is a very important

Page 2397

          1  factor.  The first composition was made out of five

          2  wagon loads of women and children and there were wagon

          3  loads of males on 26 August 1941 from Vukovar.  It set

          4  out for Jasenovac on 27 August 1941, a train

          5  composition of 21 wagon loads, two days and two nights

          6  travel to Jasenovac, and was liquidated at Gradina.

          7  There is a document which I have personally seen, 141

          8  individuals, amongst which were 24 children.

          9            There are facts and figures which state that

         10  gypsies -- Romanies from the Vukovar area were sent to

         11  Jasenovac -- 1,120 adults and 500 children.  The first

         12  great arrests of the Jews in the Vukovar region took

         13  place on 7 November 1941; lists exist with 61 Jews in

         14  Jasenovac and the last group of Jews were sent to

         15  Jasenovac from the Vukovar area on 26 July 1942.

         16       Q.   What were the total number of Jews liquidated

         17  in Jasenovac?

         18       A.   According to data that I received from Jad

         19  Vashem, a photocopy of the highest leadership sent to

         20  President Tudjman himself, they remind him that, in

         21  Jasenovac, in the most brutal possible way, 25,000 Jews

         22  were killed.

         23       Q.   Thank you.  These criminals from Jasenovac,

         24  were they punished after World War II in Communist

         25  Yugoslavia?

Page 2398

          1       A.   In fact, the basic problem as I see it and

          2  the cause of the present tragedy of the Yugoslavia

          3  peoples, lies in the fact that the Ustashi genocidal

          4  State, the independent State of Croatia, did not

          5  perform de-Nazification, as was carried out in

          6  Germany.  The Ustashi terrorist organisation, as was

          7  the case with the Nazi Party in Germany, was not

          8  proclaimed a criminal Party and that is at the root or

          9  heart of matters.  The leader of the Ustashi

         10  independent State of Croatia fled by rat channels and

         11  he was never brought to trial.  I was the official

         12  observer of the Academy of Sciences at the Andrija

         13  Artukovic case, which was to have been a belated

         14  Yugoslav Nuremberg trial and I was to have written four

         15  books in 3,500 pages to prove that this was a case in

         16  pre-war Yugoslavia which was completely staged.

         17            The Museum of the Victims of Genocide, whose

         18  director I am, along with cooperation by the Wiesental

         19  Centre -- Mr. Simon Wiesental -- discovered a live

         20  commander of Jasenovac, Dinko Sakic.  He is still

         21  alive, living in Argentina.  He has been living there

         22  since 1947 and there is numerous evidence against him.

         23  I would like to especially state that, luckily, if

         24  I can use that word, there are living witnesses --

         25  people who saw this particular commander of Jasenovac,

Page 2399

          1  living in Argentina today, kill the victims personally.

          2            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I must object.  We are

          3  getting into discussions of individual cases of

          4  perpetrators from Jasenovac and I hardly see how that

          5  is relevant to our proceedings.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:   Yes, the objection is

          7  sustained.

          8            MR. FILA:   I shall be concluding with that.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:   I wonder whether the witness

         10  could confine himself to specific cases -- not to

         11  trials, but general matters we are discussing.

         12            MR. FILA:   Very well.

         13            In the course of the post-war period in

         14  Yugoslavia, was there somebody who went to apologise to

         15  the Serbian victims -- was there a Willy Brandt of that

         16  people?

         17       A.   No, unfortunately not.  I must say, first of

         18  all, that neither the President of Yugoslavia, Josip

         19  Broz Tito, himself never visited Jasenovac and that the

         20  present President of the Republic of Croatia, historian

         21  Dr. Franjo Tudjman, apologised on several occasions to

         22  the Jews, but he never offered his apologies to the

         23  mass of Serb victims, and he never, which is more

         24  important, ever mentioned the gypsies, Romanies, who

         25  were killed in the most brutal way possible in the

Page 2400

          1  Jasenovac camp.

          2       Q.   Did this destruction of the Serbs in

          3  Jasenovac and the fact that this went unpunished, did

          4  it affect the Serbs' behaviour in 1991?

          5       A.   Yes, that is the sense of the whole thing.

          6  We must look at the roots of the present ills.  We said

          7  that no de-Nazification had taken place.  However, what

          8  began to happen before the break-up of the Yugoslav

          9  State was that Serbian houses began to be set alight on

         10  Croatian territory and what is essential here is that

         11  those houses were set aflame in areas where there were

         12  no armed conflicts.  Therefore, there was a clear

         13  orientation towards the cleansing -- towards finishing

         14  what had been started in World War II, where the area

         15  of Croatia was to have been ethnically cleansed and

         16  become a cleansed State.

         17            People were being recalled in the militia and

         18  the police, people were relocated, towns in Croatia

         19  from Zagreb to Rijeka were cleansed of the Serb

         20  population and so on.

         21       Q.   Before this, we come to 1990 and 1991, which

         22  are the years you speak about, there was a period in

         23  the history of our State which was called the Maspok,

         24  or the Croatian Spring of 1968-71.  Does this period or

         25  movement -- did it have an effect on the Serbs?

Page 2401

          1       A.   That is a good question.  At that particular

          2  time, I was present at the trial of the killers of the

          3  Yugoslav Ambassador in Stockholm and I was personally

          4  acquainted with the fact that at that time links had

          5  been established between the Ustashi terrorist

          6  organisations and this new movement, which rose up in

          7  Croatia, because it reflected a certain continuity in

          8  the fact that pure Croatian States should be

          9  established.

         10       Q.   In the course of 1990 and 1991, what was

         11  Croatian policy like towards Serbia -- towards the

         12  Serbs?  I am going to show you several films now, which

         13  I used in my introduction, and for which the President

         14  has asked me where I came by those films, so you can

         15  take a look and tell me who gave me the films.  They

         16  are films used in the Defence's introduction -- opening

         17  statement.  It spans 1990 and 1991 and I hope that this

         18  refers to this particular case.

         19                    (Videotape played)

         20            THE INTERPRETER:  Remember Vukovar.  Death to

         21  the Serbs.

         22                    (Videotape stopped)

         23            MR. FILA:   This is part of the film.  What is

         24  this about?

         25       A.   They are the crimes that were ascertained in

Page 2402

          1  1990 and 1991 as Secretary of the State Commission for

          2  War Crimes and Genocide and later, as the director of

          3  the Museum of Genocide, we created a video film centre

          4  -- documents -- on the genocide and war crimes if

          5  future generations might need documents of this kind,

          6  or this esteemed court.

          7       Q.   So, this is a segment of that tape and you

          8  gave me the tape; is that right?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10            MR. FILA:  Thank you.  May this be tendered

         11  into evidence, the tape that we just saw?

         12            JUDGE CASSESE:   Any objection?

         13            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No objection.

         14            THE REGISTRAR:    D40 is the number of the

         15  video.

         16            MR. FILA:   May we have the next tape?  It is

         17  one tape with the different segments.  They all refer

         18  to the same period -- 1990 and 1991 -- short, brief

         19  segments.

         20                    (Videotape played)

         21            THE INTERPRETER:  Please stand up in line,

         22  commanders.  Line up, please.  Cipa, are you there?

         23  Line up, please, all of you.  Where's Maric?

         24            Maric is at the end here.

         25            I have already handed all mine over.

Page 2403

          1            May I have a little silence, please?

          2  According -- by orders of the President of the Republic

          3  of Croatia, we must set up -- come on, line up,

          4  please.  A little silence.  By order of the President

          5  of the Republic of Croatia, we are forming unarmed

          6  detachments.  You must know what we are dealing with

          7  here.  We have received orders to collect the best

          8  people who we are going to put forward for the Ministry

          9  of Internal Affairs.  You know the procedure for that.

         10  Who is on the list will go with us, but we must form

         11  broader detachments.  Next time, we are going to set up

         12  the medical corps attached to our detachments.

         13            We have 30 per cent of the people here who

         14  are possibles.  That means that we must now inform them

         15  of the command that is going to be up at Graz and

         16  Bogdanovci.  We are going to inform them all why we

         17  have gathered here and anybody who is suspect, anybody

         18  of shady character should be made a note of.  I think

         19  we should wait for five minutes to check all this.

         20            No, nothing, listen, just jot down their

         21  names and surnames, they are going with us, there are

         22  no problems.  Nothing is a secret any more.  There are

         23  no secrets any more, so we are setting up unarmed

         24  detachments, we are organising, which means there is no

         25  need to keep a secret any more, but anybody suspect,

Page 2404

          1  any shady character, we should make a list of, because

          2  we have been told there are people who are suspect in

          3  the environs.

          4            Let me tell you one thing, as far as weapons

          5  are concerned, we have enough weapons.  There are no

          6  problems on that score and we are now going to have to

          7  resort to training, so that people who come here are

          8  ready, you know.  Now, how can we proceed further?

          9  What we are going to do, how are we going to do it?  We

         10  have set up our detachments.  We are going to set up a

         11  medical corps and strengthen our detachments in that

         12  way and we are going to have to have training courses.

         13  Of course, we will do this with the cooperation of

         14  MUP.

         15            You are going to go down to your departments

         16  now, take a look at the people and make a list of their

         17  names.  Anybody who does not belong there -- we all

         18  know who does not belong there, but if they should be

         19  there, just make a note of this and I will tell them

         20  what the President said.  Do not tell the people about

         21  arms.  You will be able to tell them.  We are forming

         22  unarmed detachments for such and such region and then

         23  you can line up -- we are going to line up and see the

         24  command posts in Bogdanovci up to Lustar and the bunker

         25  at Lustar which means this part, the Serbian part from

Page 2405

          1  here to Osijek, it is up to us to settle that situation

          2  -- other part will be settled by Osijek, and nobody is

          3  allowed to pass through here, so we cover all this area

          4  and we must link up the road from Bogdanovci to

          5  Lustar.  We can do that, there are no problems there.

          6  Should everybody go or just the commanders?

          7            No, everybody."

          8            MR. FILA:   One question, please.  Was that

          9  the time of the Croatian attack on the SFRY?  May

         10  I have the following tapes?  Was Croatia part of the

         11  SFRY at that time?

         12            THE INTERPRETER:  That was the question.

         13            MR. FILA:   We are hearing about the formation

         14  of unarmed detachments and detachments with arms, as

         15  far as I was able to see.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:   Sorry, what is your answer?

         17            Mr. Fila asked you a question, whether --

         18            THE WITNESS:  My answer was in the

         19  affirmative.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.

         21            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Your Honour, I want to

         22  object, also, to the commentary offered by Mr. Fila just

         23  a moment ago.  I did not catch it.  I see it on the

         24  transcript.  He said, "We are hearing about the

         25  formation of unarmed detachments and detachments with

Page 2406

          1  arms, as far as I can see." I think that is

          2  inappropriate to make that kind of comment.  It is up

          3  to the court to assess the evidence and to determine

          4  what is there and for him to offer suggestions as to

          5  what the film shows, I think should be saved for

          6  argument.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:   Yes, Mr. Fila, I think the

          8  Prosecutor is right.

          9            MR. FILA:   Okay.  I just wanted to say that

         10  it can be heard on the tape, the man saying that arms

         11  had been supplied, but I accept that.

         12                    (Videotape played)

         13            THE INTERPRETER:  If you need this at the

         14  decisive moment, organise two or three men for the

         15  liquidation.

         16            Yes, the physical liquidation.  Yes.  Dumb,

         17  dumb, dumb, our police does not dare.

         18            Does not dare?

         19            Yes, we go to somebody else and then somebody

         20  else at the same time.

         21            Those who are most dangerous can be killed at

         22  their door step, on their thresholds, no question

         23  asked, whether women, children, nothing is asked.

         24            MR. FILA:   Who is the gentleman that we can

         25  see on the screen?

Page 2407

          1       A.   Martin Spegelj, a former general of the

          2  Yugoslav army.

          3       Q.   Who is he to kill at the threshold?

          4       A.   All those who would be opposed to the break-up

          5  (INAUDIBLE), that is the officers of the Yugoslav

          6  Government.

          7       Q.   In order to create which State?

          8       A.   The independent State of Croatia.

          9       Q.   At that period, was Croatia indisputably

         10  within the SFRY?

         11       A.   Yes, according to international law, it was,

         12  undeniably, part of Yugoslavia.

         13                    (Videotape played)

         14            MR. FILA:   When did this take place,

         15  Professor?

         16       A.   In May 1991.

         17       Q.   Was Croatia undeniably a part of Yugoslavia

         18  at the time?

         19       A.   Yes, it was.

         20       Q.   In your diplomatic practice, did you ever

         21  hear or see that people can attack their official army,

         22  to take arms, to strangle soldiers?

         23       A.   Never.  I was in America, where, had this

         24  occurred, everybody would have been arrested, if

         25  anybody were to attack a tank.

Page 2408

          1       Q.   This was the regular SFRY army?

          2       A.   Yes, it was Yugoslavia's regular army.

          3       Q.   Who was it attacked by?

          4       A.   It was attached by individuals of the

          5  Croatian nationality.

          6            MR. FILA:  May I see the next video clip?

          7                    (Videotape played)

          8            THE INTERPRETER:  This is Bjelovar and the

          9  massacre of the members of the JNA.  The JNA barracks

         10  in Bjelovar.

         11            MR. FILA:   Will you tell us who the dead are,

         12  whose barracks they are, and who are the live ones?

         13       A.   They are the barracks of the Yugoslav

         14  People's Army, their legal barracks.  The killed

         15  individuals are killed officers of the Yugoslav

         16  People's Army, the legitimate army of Yugoslavia, and

         17  the perpetrators are the rebels, the Croatian

         18  paramilitary formations.

         19       Q.   At that time, was Croatia a part of

         20  Yugoslavia?

         21       A.   In September 1991, according to Croatian

         22  rule, Croatia was completely within the formation of

         23  Yugoslavia.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Fila, I am sorry to

         25  interrupt you, but this is evidence we have already

Page 2409

          1  seen -- the films, we saw and the witness was not a

          2  witness to those particular facts -- he did not see

          3  them, so therefore I do not see the point of showing

          4  all those films which the court, as I say, has already

          5  seen and asking the witness about the facts, at which

          6  he was not present.  I wonder whether you could

          7  expedite your cross-examination.

          8            MR. FILA:   Yes, we are going to understand

          9  each other in just a moment.  You asked me the question

         10  of where I got those tapes from when I made my initial

         11  statement.  I got them from the gentleman and they are

         12  part of the archives of the Museum of Genocide.  That

         13  is why I am asking him what is on the films, to explain

         14  what I am showing and where I got the films from.  As

         15  you know he was and is the director of the genocide in

         16  whose archives the films are contained.  Therefore he

         17  can bear out the authenticity of the material presented

         18  -- it is not myself who made them or whatever.  I am

         19  asking him in that sense.  Do you understand me?

         20            May we see the next film and then we shall be

         21  completing this part of the evidence.

         22            Perhaps this is a good point for me to ask

         23  whether, at that period, other barracks -- JNA barracks

         24  were attacked -- I am asking for the period before 8

         25  October 1991?

Page 2410

          1       A.   Yes, throughout Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia army

          2  barracks were attacked in the areas of Croatia.  There

          3  were numerous cases of this kind.

          4       Q.   Was there killing?

          5       A.   Yes, there was killing.

          6       Q.   Was somebody blown up?

          7       A.   Yes, there was a well-known case when a whole

          8  depot was blown up -- an arms depot.

          9       Q.   Thank you.  Shall we take a look at the film

         10  now?  This film is dated 1991 and it is a film of

         11  Vukovar -- what the JNA found when it entered Vukovar;

         12  is that correct, Sir?  Professor, would you --

         13       A.   Yes, it is.

         14                    (Videotape played).

         15            THE INTERPRETER:  ".....  In two streets

         16  alone, we counted several dozen massacred civilians.

         17  Was it good luck that saved Petar and Zuka Loncar, for

         18  they spent almost five months in their cellars.  We

         19  can't go on living together; we have to separate from

         20  them.  It's just not possible to live with them --

         21  there is just no way.  The guards, they killed us Serbs

         22  -- they massacred them when they saw that they were

         23  losing the war.  You see the way they took their

         24  revenge.  They are so furious.  They don't know what to

         25  do, they fire at anything they see moving.  They spared

Page 2411

          1  no-one.  You can see them, they dug out people's eyes,

          2  cut off their ears, the most atrocious things.  As you

          3  can see, this man was massacred with a bayonet.  This

          4  happened perhaps three days ago.  The man turned over

          5  on his stomach is Ilija Vukovic, that one used to be

          6  his house, that one that is in ruins.  This other man,

          7  also on his stomach, he is the owner of this other

          8  house, he is also a Serb -- this woman that you see on

          9  top of the old woman is Ilija Vukovic's wife."

         10            MR. FILA:   Thank you very much.  That would

         11  conclude our presentation of videotapes.  This is all.

         12  I tender this into evidence -- the source is the Museum

         13  for Genocide, this is where I got the tapes from, and

         14  that would conclude what the Defence has to say

         15  regarding Vukovar in 1991, but let me just ask --

         16            MR. WILLIAMSON:   In relation to the tendering

         17  of the evidence, I realise that Mr. Fila's source was

         18  the Museum of Genocide, but I am wondering what the

         19  source was for the Museum of Genocide.  With

         20  clarification of that, we would have no objection.

         21            JUDGE CASSESE:   That is a good question.

         22            MR. FILA:   Well, that is the question.  We

         23  will ask that question.  You want to ask that question,

         24  is that what you want to say?

         25       A.   As I already said, we gathered in our

Page 2412

          1  video film centre in order to preserve the documents --

          2  we gathered it from various sources, from various

          3  correspondents who were on site.  We also received

          4  material from certain specialised services of the

          5  Yugoslav army which took footage on site from all the

          6  sources available to us.

          7            I travelled to Vukovar once myself to see

          8  this with my own eyes, because all those things that

          9  I have seen on film, and which you have seen here, it

         10  is impossible to imagine that such crimes happened.  We

         11  realise that some things were correct, some things were

         12  incorrect, as happened for instance with the children

         13  -- this is something that was fascinating.  An Italian

         14  journalist offered evidence, but without films, that 40

         15  children were found all wrapped up, so to speak.  I

         16  checked that one out and realised that it was not

         17  correct, so the credibility of those documents was --

         18  they wanted to bring everything into question and the

         19  BBC refused to receive any documents from that area,

         20  from that time on.

         21            A mass of material here -- you cannot really

         22  check, but everything needs to be preserved.

         23            MR. FILA:   The Defence has some false

         24  testimony here -- if you want to have a look at that,

         25  you can.

Page 2413

          1            JUDGE CASSESE:   That is -- let me ask the

          2  Prosecutor whether he is prepared to accept --

          3            MR. WILLIAMSON:   The film, we have no

          4  objection.  We would have an objection to something

          5  which has already been characterised as false testimony

          6  coming in.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:   So it is tendered in

          8  evidence and admitted into evidence.

          9            MR. FILA:   We will be concluding shortly,

         10  your Honour.

         11            THE REGISTRAR:    The video will be marked

         12  D40.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Fila?

         14            MR. FILA:   When I submitted your expert

         15  report, the Tribunal asked from you in Belgrade to

         16  submit some books of yours.  I do not know whether it

         17  was the Tribunal itself or the Office of the Prosecutor

         18  who requested that, but at any rate you submitted in

         19  book, did you not?  Please have a look at it.

         20  (Handed).

         21            No, no, alright.  I have only one copy, so

         22  I cannot tender this copy.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:   Could you tell us about this

         24  book, Mr. Fila?

         25            MR. FILA:   Yes.  I just wanted to ask the

Page 2414

          1  expert witness to read out the title, because this is

          2  one of the books mentioned in the bibliography?

          3       A.   Let me answer -- the Office of the Observers

          4  of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former

          5  Yugoslavia asked me to submit a number of books and

          6  articles of mine and of course I complied forthwith so

          7  that they can see what it was that I studied.  This

          8  book is called, "The Break-up of the Yugoslav State

          9  1991-1992, The Crime Against Peace -- The

         10  Responsibility of Vatican and Germany."

         11       Q.   Thank you very much.  Unfortunately, I cannot

         12  tender this book, because this is an only copy.  But

         13  the expert witness gave us a disk which contains the

         14  English translation of the book, so if it is necessary,

         15  the Defence is willing to provide you with this,

         16  because I do not need that.  I would now like to ask

         17  our expert witness to have a look at those documents

         18  and to indicate where these are located in the book?

         19            THE REGISTRAR:    This is marked Exhibit

         20  D41.

         21            MR. FILA:   You speak both English and

         22  Serbian, so it will be easy for you to determine.

         23  (Handed).

         24            Will you please tell us at what location in

         25  this book are these excerpts from and what do they deal

Page 2415

          1  with?

          2       A.   This is a chapter from the book in the

          3  Serbian version, it is page 286 and this is a

          4  translation of that chapter entitled, "Genscher and the

          5  Warning against Lord Carrington and the

          6  Secretary-General Perez de Cuellar: Genscher Rejects

          7  the Warning".

          8       Q.   What is this document about -- when was it

          9  written and what is this about, in two sentences or so?

         10       A.   In early December 1991, when I was carrying

         11  out my research in the United Nations, the tragedy of

         12  my people, since I have also served in New York as the

         13  Consul General of Yugoslavia, I came across some

         14  documents in which Lord Carrington, who was at the time

         15  the president or the chairman of the Conference on

         16  Yugoslavia, and the Secretary-General of the United

         17  Nations, Peres de Cuellar, wrote a letter to the

         18  Foreign Minister of the Federal Republic of Germany in

         19  which they warned him that an early recognition of the

         20  break-up of the Yugoslav State might have, as a

         21  consequence, a horrible tragedy of all the peoples in

         22  Yugoslavia.

         23            Genscher, who is one of the main architects

         24  of the break-up of the Yugoslav State, rejected in

         25  categorical terms the warnings by Lord Carrington and

Page 2416

          1  by the Secretary-General of the United Nations.  In my

          2  opinion, that warning, and also from the historical

          3  distance that we have now, is extremely important,

          4  because, from that time on, all the statesmen

          5  recognised that.

          6            Unfortunately, it was too late for the

          7  peoples in Yugoslavia, that the early recognition of

          8  the break-up of Yugoslavia, before all the conditions

          9  were met to enable all the peoples there to have their

         10  rights recognised, that it was done in early December

         11  by Genscher -- after all the events in Vukovar, he

         12  rejected that warning.

         13       Q.   You said "refusal to recognise" -- the early

         14  recognition of what?

         15       A.   The early recognition of Croatia and

         16  Slovenia.

         17            MR. FILA:  So, I tender this into evidence as

         18  a Defence exhibit.

         19            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No objection.

         20            THE REGISTRAR:    D41.

         21            MR. FILA:   I would like the witness to look

         22  at the next document.  I apologise to the Prosecutor

         23  and to you, your Honours.  Our witness is an expert in

         24  international law.  He was the chief adviser in the

         25  Ministry of Foreign Affairs and that is why I am using

Page 2417

          1  him for this purpose, as a source of information.

          2            THE REGISTRAR:    Document is marked D42.

          3            MR. FILA:   Will you please tell us what this

          4  is about and at what location is this in your book?

          5       A.   This is on page 188 in my book -- this is

          6  about the role played by the European Community Troika,

          7  played by intervening in the internal affairs of the

          8  Yugoslav State by exerting pressure and insisting that

          9  the representative of Croatia, Stjepan Mesic, who at

         10  one stage openly said that he would break up the

         11  Yugoslav State and that this was his main purpose --

         12  and that was of course the reason, as in any other

         13  State, that a man who wants to destroy a State cannot

         14  be at its head.

         15            However, the Troika of the European Community

         16  at that time, according to the transcripts which I had

         17  an opportunity to see, they guaranteed, including

         18  Mr. De Michaelis of Italy, that they would prefer the

         19  integrity of the Yugoslav State and they would force

         20  the secessionist States of Croatia and Slovenia not to

         21  secede by force, if certain constitutional procedures

         22  whereby they could secede from Yugoslavia and which the

         23  constitution envisaged, if they would be prepared to

         24  accept that, because any resorting to violence would

         25  result in serious consequences for the Yugoslav

Page 2418

          1  peoples.

          2            This is the essence of this and it is clear

          3  today that all those guarantees provided by the

          4  European Union were not respected.

          5            MR. FILA:   Thank you.  Will you please look

          6  at the following excerpt from your book.  I would also

          7  like to tender this as evidence -- that is Defence

          8  Exhibit 43 and this is the next one.

          9            THE REGISTRAR:    It is Exhibit D42 and this

         10  one will be marked D43.  (Handed).

         11            THE WITNESS:    This is a chapter in my

         12  book.  I have to note here --

         13            MR. FILA:   Hold on a second.

         14            JUDGE CASSESE:   Any objection from the

         15  Prosecutor?

         16            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Your Honour, we have no

         17  objection to this coming in.

         18            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.

         19            MR. FILA:   Go ahead, please, what is this

         20  about?

         21       A.   This is about the responsibility of Germany,

         22  Austria and Hungary for the break-up of the Yugoslav

         23  State.  This is located in my book which we have been

         24  discussing at page 134 and elsewhere.  However, my

         25  edition, prepared for the world in the English

Page 2419

          1  language, differs in the presentation of the case, but

          2  the essence of the case is as follows:  I would really

          3  like this to be understood, because this is a result of

          4  a study of the historical genesis of all this.  All

          5  that happened inside Yugoslavia, you will admit,

          6  happens in all countries over the world.  It happens in

          7  Italy, it happens in France, in many other States, and

          8  the tragedy of the Yugoslav peoples would not have

          9  occurred had it not been for the outside intervention.

         10  As you know, the UN Charter forbids this -- this is a

         11  crime against peace.

         12            Of course, there are some attempts at

         13  revisionism and I have the evidence for this -- the

         14  proof.  I have always attempted in my research, as a

         15  combination of a legal expert and an historian, to

         16  establish facts.  In this case, it is clear that there

         17  were some points in Germany where Croatian paramilitary

         18  forces were trained.  We have concrete evidence that

         19  tens of thousands of Kalashnikovs were illegally

         20  imported from Hungary in contravention of the

         21  regulations for the purposes of paramilitary forces and

         22  in contravention of the JNA.  The English edition would

         23  have been even broader than the Serbian edition.

         24            Had it not been for the intervention of the

         25  foreign forces, this tragedy of Yugoslav peoples would

Page 2420

          1  not have happened, there would have been negotiations

          2  and so forth but not a tragedy such as the one that

          3  happened.

          4            This is the purpose, to show the background

          5  of what happened in 1991 and 1992, where the roots lie,

          6  because all the crimes that we have been discussing

          7  today, these are the consequences.  The fact is the

          8  basis that in 1941 the Yugoslav State was broken up,

          9  crimes of genocide occurred; in 1991 the second

         10  Yugoslav State was broken up and everything happened

         11  again.

         12            In the second Yugoslav State, you had the

         13  Greater Serbia, Greater Croatia, all the Muslims, they

         14  all lived together, but somebody did not like it and

         15  this had to be broken up.

         16       Q.   Thank you.  In your research, did you come up

         17  with the fact that there were mercenaries in the

         18  Croatian armed forces, or in some other forces?

         19       A.   Thank you for the question.  In 1995 I had

         20  the honour of visiting this esteemed Tribunal.  I had a

         21  discussion with the deputy chief Prosecutor,

         22  Mr. Blewitt.  I gave him a list of 13 mercenaries from

         23  this country, from The Netherlands, and I referred to

         24  the Convention on Mercenaries and I told him, according

         25  to my views of international law, these are the most

Page 2421

          1  harmful criminals who do not get any kind of

          2  international protection and I proposed that they be

          3  prosecuted and punished.  This is where I saw the real

          4  purpose of the International Criminal Tribunal for the

          5  former Yugoslavia, and that list of 13 Dutch

          6  mercenaries was also submitted to the Ministry of

          7  Foreign Affairs of the Netherlands pointing out to the

          8  Convention, signed by the Kingdom of The Netherlands

          9  and the Kingdom of Serbia, in 1895, and I proposed that

         10  certain measures be taken against those mercenaries.

         11            There are also mercenaries from Austria,

         12  Germany, from the United States, but, as far as I know,

         13  nothing was done -- they were not prosecuted, and what

         14  I as an expert in international law, and a person of

         15  international outlook, what I cannot see is how so many

         16  civilised countries, including the United States and

         17  The Netherlands, once those criminals are identified or

         18  gotten by them through an exchange, how they can fail

         19  to do anything.

         20       Q.   Thank you.  My last question, because the

         21  court might be interested in that, is the English

         22  version of the text here on this disk?

         23       A.   Well, this is the latest version dated 1996.

         24  I still continue my studies, I gather new documents and

         25  I have obtained some really significant documents.

Page 2422

          1  I have conducted my research in the Italian Foreign

          2  Ministry, in the general staff of the Italian army, in

          3  Kew Gardens archive in London, in the archives of the

          4  United States and France and of course all the archives

          5  in the former Yugoslavia which were accessible to me.

          6            MR. FILA:  I would like to tender to this

          7  court on a disk.  This contains the English version of

          8  the 400 pages of this book, so if somebody wants to

          9  have a look at it -- of course, if the Prosecution has

         10  no objection, I would like to tender this as evidence

         11  and, if not, as supporting material.

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No objection.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.

         14            THE REGISTRAR:    It is D44.

         15            MR. FILA:   Finally, I would like the last two

         16  documents to be admitted -- they have been admitted --

         17            MR. WILLIAMSON:   This does bring up one issue

         18  just now.  Mr. Fila has mentioned something as

         19  supporting material -- if it is not tendered as

         20  evidence he would like to submit it as supporting

         21  material.  We have not objected to this, it is finite

         22  would go in as to evidence.  However, we want to make

         23  sure there is a clear understanding that anything that

         24  is submitted as supporting material is not being used

         25  as evidence for the decision of the court and just make

Page 2423

          1  sure there is no misunderstanding as to that.

          2            MR. FILA:   Yes, yes.  This was just -- had

          3  you objected -- since you have no objections,

          4  everything is alright.  The Defence has asked in the

          5  course of the trial and obtained from Belgrade a set of

          6  documents signed by the SFRY as international documents

          7  in the period from May 1991 until the end of 1991.

          8  Since our expert witness was a legal adviser to the

          9  Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I would like these

         10  documents to be shown to him -- some are in French,

         11  some are in English, and some are in Serbian and if he

         12  can identify those documents for us, I think it would

         13  be useful in conjunction with the other documents.

         14  (Handed).

         15            THE REGISTRAR:    Document is marked D45.

         16            MR. FILA:   I would like you to have a look at

         17  those documents separately and to tell us what are

         18  those documents -- what kind of documents are these?

         19       A.   The first document is the Third Protocol on

         20  Financial Cooperation between the Socialist Federal

         21  Republic of Yugoslavia and European Economic Community.

         22       Q.   Dated?

         23       A.   In Brussels, 24 June 1990 -- 1991.

         24       Q.   Please go on.

         25       A.   The second document, the coversheet for the

Page 2424

          1  World Bank, Japanese grant agreement dated 1991 between

          2  the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the

          3  International Bank for Restructuring and Development.

          4       Q.   The date?

          5       A.   1991.

          6       Q.   Is there not a more exact date?

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:   I would say 4 October 1991.

          8       A.   October, yes.

          9            MR. FILA:   Let us go on.

         10       A.   Protocol between the Socialist Executive

         11  Council of the SFRY and the Romanian Government on the

         12  Exchange of Goods and Services in 1991, signed

         13  27 November 1991.  The next one is a letter --

         14            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises,

         15  it is impossible to understand.

         16            THE WITNESS:    This was sent to Ambassador

         17  Mihiljica Jobrejnon, head of the Mission of the

         18  Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia with the

         19  European Community in Brussels dated 18 September

         20  1991.  The next is a letter, cooperation -- it is

         21  probably a French title -- this letter was sent to the

         22  Yugoslav Ambassador Mihiljica Jobrejnon, and the last

         23  document is a verbal note from the US Embassy sent to

         24  the Federal Secretariat of Foreign Affairs of the SFRY,

         25  dated 25 June 1991, so that means immediately after the

Page 2425

          1  visit of the Secretary of State James Baker to

          2  Yugoslavia.

          3       Q.   Can it be said, since you are an expert in

          4  this area, that these documents refer to the sovereign

          5  State of SFRY?

          6       A.   These are the most formal documents, because

          7  they are agreements signed by States and exchange of

          8  notes, so this is the most official kind of

          9  communication between a State and international organs

         10  and other States.

         11       Q.   Does it mean the SFRY existed as a State?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Objection.  That calls for a

         14  legal conclusion from this witness.

         15            MR. FILA:   This witness is the chief legal

         16  adviser of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and he is

         17  making legal conclusions.  I would like to tender this

         18  in to evidence as an exhibit and the Defence has no

         19  further questions.

         20            MR. WILLIAMSON:   We would have no objection

         21  to it coming in.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:   So we can move on to the

         23  cross-examination?

         24             Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

         25       Q.   Dr. Bulajic, there were some other books as

Page 2426

          1  well that you have written that were not mentioned

          2  during the course of examination-in-chief.  One of them

          3  is a book in which you have been rather critical of

          4  this institution, which is called "the alternative

          5  Yugoslavia Tribunal", which, on its cover, has a

          6  picture of a sword in the hand of the lady of justice

          7  here and it says "for Serbs" written on the sword.  Is

          8  this the book that you published?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   And in this book you said that the Security

         11  Council cannot establish an international court of law,

         12  and it is your conclusion that this is not really a

         13  court of law.  Is that still your view?

         14       A.   Yes, it is.  I can explain if you like.

         15       Q.   Please do.

         16       A.   My entire life I have been dealing with

         17  international law, especially United Nations law.

         18  I have cooperated with the International Court of

         19  Justice.  My analyses on the setting up of the

         20  International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia were

         21  different than my express advocating of setting up an

         22  international criminal court of general jurisdiction

         23  for which I consider that the present-day mankind has

         24  need of.

         25            The setting up of individual courts for

Page 2427

          1  individual States, I do not see any reason absolutely

          2  for this and I should like to remind you that that is

          3  not only my own opinion, but it is the opinion of my

          4  distinguished colleague, whom I knew before he was the

          5  Secretary-General of the United Nations, Dr. Boutros

          6  Boutros-Ghali.  His explanations at the very outset

          7  when this court was formed, but not to go into great

          8  length, you have had opportunities to see my book,

          9  I should like to give you my opinion.  Every man is

         10  entitled to his own opinion, I think, with full respect

         11  for this Tribunal -- that is why I am here today,

         12  because I respect the Tribunal.

         13            If the Security Council is to create an

         14  international court on the basis of one legal premise,

         15  the right to create a subsidiary organ, according to my

         16  criteria, this cannot be how I envisage -- let me have

         17  my opinion -- how an International Tribunal should look

         18  like.  I analysed and studied why the initiative of the

         19  United States was severed to set up an ad hoc court for

         20  Iraq, for Saddam Hussein, why did they give that idea

         21  up.  Why was the Tribunal set up only for Yugoslavia

         22  and later on for Rwanda, which is a completely

         23  different case.

         24            Therefore, I would just like to state, and it

         25  is my own free opinion as a jurist, as somebody dealing

Page 2428

          1  in the law throughout my lifetime, I support the

          2  formation of an international criminal court, which

          3  will try all cases without limitation and that is why

          4  I should like also to express my deep respect of this

          5  Tribunal.  I should like to remind you that, on one

          6  occasion, I put myself forward as amicus curiae to

          7  appear before this court and I discussed the matter

          8  with your officers and the gentleman in that

          9  representative officer, Mr. Mihov, so I would like to

         10  separate these two views, my opinion as a lawyer, as a

         11  jurist, as a legal man and why we are here today in the

         12  efforts of establishing the truth.

         13       Q.   You take issue in this book with the idea

         14  that individual responsibility should be the basis for

         15  prosecution of crimes at this time, saying rather that

         16  the forces responsible for the break-up of Yugoslavia is

         17  where you will find the roots of all the individual

         18  crimes and crimes of genocide.  In the writings in at

         19  least the two books I have read you hold a number of

         20  people responsible for the break-up of Yugoslavia;

         21  Germany, the Vatican, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Croatia,

         22  Slovenia.  I have not found anywhere in any of your

         23  books that you felt that Serbia had anything to do with

         24  the break-up of Yugoslavia; is that your view?

         25            MR. FILA:   Objection.  This is as interesting

Page 2429

          1  as Jasenovac is.  I do not see the connection between

          2  his views on Germany and France and the reading of his

          3  books when I explained a moment ago that some 150,000

          4  Serbs were killed in Jasenovac and the Germans do seem

          5  to have something to do with the trial here, so I do

          6  not think we should adhere to the theoretical opinions

          7  of what the gentleman wrote.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Your Honour, this man is

          9  being put forward as an expert and the whole reason

         10  that experts are required to submit a list of their

         11  publications is so that they can be challenged on these

         12  to determine their credibility and perhaps their

         13  motivation for testifying.  This man has made a lot of

         14  statements which relate directly to war crimes.

         15  I think they are relevant in determining his veracity.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:   But still I wonder to what

         17  extent your question is relevant -- whether or not --

         18  I wonder whether you could move on to another

         19  question.

         20            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Very well, your Honour, if

         21  you will note our objection.

         22            In this book, you include a number of

         23  articles that were written by other persons, as well,

         24  which seem to support your position and the views that

         25  you express; is that correct?

Page 2430

          1       A.   First of all, let me tell you --

          2            MR. FILA:   What book are you discussing --

          3  the same book?

          4            MR. WILLIAMSON:   The same book, "Alternative

          5  Yugoslavia Tribunal".

          6            MR. FILA:   Once again, an objection.  I do

          7  not see what we are talking about here.

          8            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Your Honour --

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:   This is the book you just

         10  mentioned?

         11            MR. WILLIAMSON:   That is correct.  There are

         12  some other writings in here which I think certainly are

         13  relevant.  This man is putting forth the view that

         14  there is no such thing as a war crime in this book.

         15  This is clearly relevant as to this man's credibility,

         16  when he is coming here and testifying about war

         17  crimes.  If he is expressing a view first of all that

         18  this Tribunal does not exist, which he says is not a

         19  legal institution, is not really a valid court of law,

         20  all of this has to do with how much reliability should

         21  be placed on this gentleman's statements.

         22            JUDGE CASSESE:   On the particular issue of

         23  his views -- the witness's views about the legality or

         24  credibility of our Tribunal, I think this -- he is

         25  entitled to hold any view about it, as a legal scholar,

Page 2431

          1  so I wondered to what extent it is relevant to us.  If

          2  you want to pursue this matter on whether or not he

          3  speaks of war crimes, whether or not he believes that

          4  war crimes were committed, you may go on.

          5            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Very well, your Honour.

          6            In particular, there is an article written by

          7  a woman named Joan Phillips which is included in your

          8  book, which is entitled, "War Crimes: Myth and

          9  Reality".  Do you agree with the conclusions that are

         10  reached in this article?

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:   Would you please tell us

         12  what sort of conclusions are reached in that article?

         13            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I was going to quote this

         14  directly.  If he disagrees with it I did not see any

         15  reason to go into detail of what is in the article.

         16            MR. FILA:   Objection.

         17            JUDGE CASSESE:   Let us allow the Prosecutor

         18  to move on.  Yes.

         19            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Do you agree with the

         20  conclusions reached in this article?

         21       A.   I do not agree with that conclusion.  My

         22  attitude is very clear and principled.  War crimes,

         23  crimes of genocide, regardless of the perpetrators,

         24  must be brought to a court of law for trial, regardless

         25  of whether we are dealing with Serbs, Croats, or

Page 2432

          1  Slovenes.  That you have said there are other opinions

          2  in the book -- allow me to say that if we are going to

          3  constantly re-examine one's conclusions, we must listen

          4  to other people's views.  On 13 April 1993, I initiated

          5  at my particular faculty, department, at my university,

          6  outside my official capacity, a round table meeting at

          7  which we asked the question of the setting up of an

          8  International Criminal Tribunal ad hoc for Yugoslavia.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:   Do not go into this matter.

         10  Let us move on with other questions.  This is not an

         11  issue here.

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Dr. Bulajic, you commented on

         13  this film that was shown to you about these armed

         14  detachments which were being formed, or in the case of

         15  Mr. Mercep, where he is talking about unarmed

         16  detachments and then, in the case of General Spegelj,

         17  the importation of arms.  You said that this was not in

         18  accordance with SFRY law; is that correct?

         19       A.   Yes, it is.

         20       Q.   Was the formation of Serbian autonomous

         21  regions in accordance with SFRY law, or Croatian law?

         22       A.   You probably saw in my biography my doctoral

         23  thesis was, "The Rights of Peoples to

         24  Self-Determination".  Later on it was confirmed in the

         25  UN that this is one of the basic principles of

Page 2433

          1  international modern law.  If Croatia at that time

          2  forcibly separated, contrary to the rights and

          3  regulations of the Yugoslav constitution and

          4  constitutional law in general, the same right was

          5  enjoyed by the Serbian people from the aspects of the

          6  rights of self-determination, because it was contrary

          7  to the so-called Austro-Hungarian theory of State law.

          8            Let me remind you of a precedent of West

          9  Virginia during the secessionist war in the US when the

         10  State of Virginia had joined the Confederation and West

         11  Virginia opted for the union and today in the

         12  constitution of the US there are two States, you have

         13  Virginia and you have West Virginia.  Therefore, when

         14  we are breaking up Yugoslavia and when the constitution

         15  of Yugoslavia is not being respected, if one peoples

         16  refer to the right to self-determination, then the same

         17  right applies to another peoples, especially as,

         18  according to the Croatian constitution, the Serbian

         19  people are a constituent peoples who fought in the

         20  course of the Second World War for its right in that

         21  country and was recognised at the time of Hungary and

         22  so on and so forth, not to go back to history too far.

         23       Q.   You did not really answer my question.  You

         24  said because Croatia did it, then the Serbs should do

         25  it, but my question was specifically, was this in

Page 2434

          1  violation of the SFRY law?  It is a very simple

          2  question -- "Yes" or "No", was it a violation and then,

          3  if you need to explain, please do so?

          4       A.   It was not in violation of the Yugoslav

          5  constitution.

          6       Q.   The film that was shown about the attack on

          7  the barracks in Bjelovar, which was entitled, "The

          8  Massacre of the JNA Soldiers at Bjelovar", this

          9  occurred at the end of September, did it not --

         10  I believe it was 29 September 1991?

         11       A.   I cannot say exactly what the date was, but

         12  at that time, certainly.

         13       Q.   And this was already well after the JNA

         14  forces were engaged in battle with Croatian forces in

         15  Vukovar, for example, which had started at least a

         16  month earlier?

         17       A.   I do not understand what you have in mind --

         18  the Yugoslav army -- it was the legal army of

         19  Yugoslavia performing its constitutional duties.

         20       Q.   I think the question was rather simple.  This

         21  was a month after the Yugoslav army had begun engaging

         22  in battle with Croatian forces in the town of Vukovar,

         23  is it not?

         24       A.   I do not know exactly the time that the

         25  Yugoslav army was engaged.  I do not know that, but

Page 2435

          1  I can say that it was within the frameworks of the

          2  legal functions of the Yugoslav army.

          3       Q.   And this was at least during a state of armed

          4  conflict between the forces of the Yugoslav army and

          5  the Croatian authorities; correct -- Croatian military

          6  forces?

          7       A.   They were not Croatian military authorities;

          8  they were insurgent authorities.

          9       Q.   Can you at least agree that there was a state

         10  of armed conflict between the JNA and somebody from the

         11  Croatian side?

         12       A.   Of course -- the armed conflict unfortunately

         13  did exist.

         14       Q.   And is it not a fact that there were a number

         15  of JNA barracks spread throughout Croatia?

         16       A.   There was not a great number or a small

         17  number -- it was as it was prescribed by Yugoslav army

         18  formations.  There were no special barracks or new

         19  barracks.  They were the barracks that had existed for

         20  many years -- for decades, in fact.

         21       Q.   The JNA soldiers that were in the vast

         22  majority of these barracks left Croatia peacefully

         23  without harm; is that not correct, in organised convoys

         24  into Bosnia?

         25       A.   I do not know whether they left as peacefully

Page 2436

          1  as you say -- where conditions existed for this, they

          2  probably did, but the fact was there was a rebellion

          3  going on and there were separate plans elaborated of

          4  cutting off water and electricity, creating blockades

          5  and special military facilities to stop the legal army

          6  from functioning on the territory of its own State.

          7       Q.   In fact, in Bjelovar, the JNA commander had

          8  resisted requests for him to abandon the garrison and

          9  to leave and had begun firing on the town of Bjelovar,

         10  had he not, and there was a return of fire and in fact

         11  there was a battle over the barracks in Bjelovar?

         12       A.   What would any other honourable officer do in

         13  any army in the world but react in that way -- what

         14  would you have him do?

         15            MR. FILA:   I apologise, your Honours.  I did

         16  not understand properly.  At whose demand was the

         17  commander of the Bjelovar -- when did he refuse to do

         18  this?  At whose demand, at whose request -- at the

         19  request of which State -- the representative of what

         20  State?  What demand -- what are you talking about

         21  exactly?

         22            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I think it has been very

         23  clear, that the Croats asked the soldiers to leave,

         24  asked the officers to abandon the garrison, that in

         25  this situation the JNA forces fought, a battle ensued,

Page 2437

          1  and this is where the deaths occurred, during the

          2  course of this battle.

          3            MR. FILA:   Once again, I apologise, your

          4  Honours, what Croats -- Croats are a nation, there are

          5  children, the elderly, women, physicians, engineers --

          6  which Croats -- Croats as a nation cannot pose requests

          7  of this kind, so who tabled this request for the legal

          8  SFR army to leave Yugoslav territory.

          9            MR. WILLIAMSON:   The Croatian Government, but

         10  I believe he has already answered the question.

         11            You mentioned this fact about an Italian

         12  journalist offered evidence about 40 children killed

         13  and that this was not true.  Is it not a fact that she

         14  was given this information by the JNA -- she reported

         15  it, Reuters ran it all over the world and then, when

         16  she insisted on seeing the bodies, the JNA finally

         17  admitted that this was a false report?

         18       A.   I personally researched this case -- in all

         19  my researches and the book that we offer on the

         20  children of the victims of genocide -- the crime of

         21  genocide is the greatest crime, crimes against children

         22  are the worst of these crimes and when I heard about

         23  this news item, that 40 children had been killed, that

         24  they were in a group and that they were packed like

         25  rubbish in small plastic bags, truly, as a father, as a

Page 2438

          1  man, I could not believe this, because anybody who had

          2  perpetrated such a crime I do not think we should go

          3  into research of this kind.  I checked with the

          4  Yugoslav People's Army, with the most competent

          5  authorities, the head of the legal department who was

          6  my colleague, who was on the spot, on the location, and

          7  confirmed what I learned.  I went to Vukovar

          8  personally, I was brought a "witness" -- a alleged

          9  witness -- an alleged eye witness.  I asked for a

         10  meeting with him, I met him.  "Let me have some proof",

         11  I said.  But nobody brought any proof, although this

         12  was a source from the Yugoslav People's Army and a

         13  source in favour of the Serbs.  I said, "No, that is

         14  not true, and any untruths should be condemned."

         15  Therefore, there was no different opinion in the

         16  Yugoslav People's Army and otherwise.

         17       Q.   I do not think there is any dispute that the

         18  information was false.  We all agree with that.  My

         19  question to you, though, was that this Italian

         20  journalist did not just originate this story on her

         21  own.  She received the story from the JNA, did she not,

         22  in the first place -- "Yes" or "No", and then explain

         23  as needed?

         24       A.   "Yes" or "No" in what sense, tell me -- no,

         25  because she did not get it from the JNA -- that is my

Page 2439

          1  answer -- my answer is "No" in that sense.  How she

          2  arrived at that particular piece of information -- her.

          3            MR. FILA:   Your Honours, if I may, I have the

          4  tape.  If you want to know where false information

          5  comes from, we can show the tape and the Prosecutor

          6  will no doubt be satisfied.

          7            JUDGE CASSESE:   I do not think we need to

          8  see this tape.  Does the Prosecution want to see the

          9  tape?

         10            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No, your Honour.

         11            You have indicated there were mercenaries in

         12  the Croatian army.  Is it your position that there were

         13  none in the Serb forces?

         14       A.   That is not my position -- probably there was

         15  among the Serbs, too, but my attitude is clear-cut --

         16  mercenaries are the most terrible crime according to

         17  international law -- anybody who is paid to kill

         18  anybody, that is the worst possible crime, according to

         19  international law.

         20       Q.   You talk about Serb homes being burned in

         21  areas of Croatia, and Serbs being forced out.  Is it

         22  not true that Croats were forced out from Serb areas?

         23       A.   I cannot tell you exactly -- probably there

         24  were cases of that kind, too.  Unfortunately, action

         25  leads to reaction.  One hostile action leads to another

Page 2440

          1  hostile action and I do not say that any type of

          2  cleansing is alright.  What I was particularly affected

          3  by was where war conflicts break out one can understand

          4  a lot of things, but in areas where there were no armed

          5  conflicts, for example, the Croatian region of Goske

          6  Kotar, houses were burned, people killed.  People were

          7  loyal citizens there -- there were no barricades,

          8  nothing of that kind in the area, for example.

          9       Q.   You have also written another book about the

         10  role of the Vatican in the break-up of the Yugoslav

         11  State and you seem to hold the Pope responsible for

         12  much of what happened in Yugoslavia -- is that a

         13  correct statement?

         14       A.   With full respect for his Honour, the Pope,

         15  I do hold him responsible, yes.

         16       Q.   And you talk about -- you refer to the

         17  Tudjman Government as an Ustashi Government; correct?

         18       A.   I am not sure that I used the word "Ustashi",

         19  but pro Ustashi quite definitely, because it was a

         20  continuation of the policy -- that is evident.  The

         21  historian himself, the actual President of the Republic

         22  of Croatia, Dr. Franjo Tudjman, publicly and expressly

         23  stated that the Ustashi independent State of Croatia

         24  was an expression of the age-old historical traditions

         25  and aspirations of the Croatian people, and the

Page 2441

          1  commander of the Jasenovac camp in Buenos Aires was

          2  visited by Dr. Tudjman.  He expressed his recognition

          3  and Vinko Vinkovic, one of the SABOR members, was a

          4  member of the Ustashi genocide, he was included into

          5  the SABOR Croatian Parliament, not to mention other

          6  cases of continuity.  He took away the Serbs' right as

          7  a constituent people.  He does not allow Serbs to

          8  return to Croatia today.  He organised the Muslim

          9  supreme commander of the Storm drive, and the other

         10  drive where hundreds of thousands of people were made

         11  to flee, so the Serbian people no longer represent a

         12  constituent people but neither are they are a minority

         13  and this means that the plan to genocidally exterminate

         14  the Serbs, which was started by Pavelic has succeeded.

         15  If you read anti-Semitism in the Pathless Roads and

         16  other works, I think the whole situation will become

         17  clear to you.

         18            THE INTERPRETER:  Dr. Tudjman's book, he was

         19  quoting.

         20            MR. WILLIAMSON:   You state in your book

         21  "Alternative Yugoslavia Tribunal" that the right of

         22  one people must not overrule the rights of other

         23  peoples.  You would maintain, I assume, that the Serbs

         24  have followed this principle?

         25       A.   You are first raising a principled question,

Page 2442

          1  a question of principle, and that is quite right, but

          2  I do not say that in the name of the Serbian people but

          3  as an internationalist for every nation in the world

          4  and for all the Yugoslav nations.

          5       Q.   But, again, my question is, do you believe

          6  that the Serbs have followed that policy in Yugoslavia,

          7  that they have respected the rights of others?

          8       A.   I do not know who you have in mind when you

          9  say "the Serbs" -- the Serbs like myself, the Serbian

         10  Government, the Yugoslav Government did follow that

         11  principle, yes.

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:  I have no further questions.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  Mr. Fila.

         14            MR. FILA:   No questions.  I shall try and

         15  read the book by Dr. Tudjman myself.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:   I assume there is no

         17  objection to the witness being released?

         18            Dr. Bulajic, thank you for coming here to give

         19  evidence.  You may be released.  We stand adjourned for

         20  15 minutes.

         21            (11.55 a.m.)

         22                (A short break)

         23            (12.13 p.m.)

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:   Before we start, may

         25  I discuss a matter with both parties?  There is a

Page 2443

          1  matter about the organisation of our future work.

          2  I understand from the Registrar that it will be more

          3  convenient and technically possible to establish the

          4  video link on 25 May instead of 18 May -- it will be

          5  much better.  I wonder whether you are going to call a

          6  sufficient number of witnesses for the previous week,

          7  the 18th to the 22nd?

          8            MR. FILA:   As it is half a day.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:   Yes, we have half a day.  Do

         10  you have, right now, a rough idea how many witnesses

         11  you will call in May?  We know that 12 are to be heard

         12  via video link, but I understand you have reduced the

         13  number.

         14            MR. FILA:   Yes, there will be fewer people.

         15  Your Honours, I will try and get some new witnesses to

         16  clarify some military matters over the army, but 23 or

         17  24 witnesses, but they will all be very quick, because

         18  they will be on the link, they are individuals on tape

         19  for the most part, and as I said at the beginning, we

         20  are first going to get through the expert witnesses,

         21  the general situation in Vukovar in 1990 and 1991 and

         22  then to the others.

         23            I am beginning this with this particular

         24  witness.  I think it will be fairly quick and I hope

         25  that you do not have any objections and criticisms of

Page 2444

     1  my speed today, except for the way I talk.

          2            JUDGE CASSESE:   Again, how many witnesses

          3  are you going to call through video links?

          4            MR. FILA:   About 20 -- a video conference,

          5  about eight -- the video link, about eight witnesses --

          6  there seems to be the need for -- we receive new data

          7  every day, so we do not have to have two or three

          8  witnesses, we can reduce the number, the number is

          9  being reduced.  But, as I said earlier on, I shall be

         10  completing this in May, that is for certain.

         11            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.

         12            The next witness is Mr. Novakovic.

         13                (The witness entered court)

         14            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

         15  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

         16  the truth.

         17                     LJUBOMIR NOVAKOVIC

         18                    Examined by MR. FILA

         19       Q.   Mr. Novakovic, did you conduct a talk with

         20  inspector Vasic?

         21       A.   Yes, on two occasions he took down a

         22  statement and a supplementary statement.

         23            MR. FILA:  Will you take a look at this

         24  statement and say if it was the one that you made?

         25            THE REGISTRAR:    Document is marked D46,

Page 2445

          1  English translation 46A.

          2            MR. FILA:   It exists in Serbian and English.

          3  (Handed).

          4            Will you have a look at this document and

          5  tell us whether it is your supplementary statement.

          6  (Handed).

          7       A.   This is my statement, yes.  The statement

          8  I made to Mr. Vasic.

          9       Q.   Would you now take a look at the statement?

         10       A.   I have not received the supplement yet.

         11            THE REGISTRAR:    The document is marked

         12  D47.

         13            THE WITNESS:    This is a statement in

         14  English.

         15            MR. FILA:   The translation is here in

         16  Serbian.  That is the statement in Serbian, a

         17  supplementary statement in Serbian.

         18            THE REGISTRAR:    This will be D47 and the

         19  English translation is D47A.

         20            THE WITNESS:    That is my statement in

         21  Serbian.

         22            MR. FILA:   If there are no objections, may

         23  this be tendered as D46 and D47?

         24            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No objection, your Honour.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.

Page 2446

          1            MR. FILA:   Mr. Novakovic, were you the

          2  President of the Municipal Assembly of Backa Palanka

          3  from 1989 to 1997?

          4       A.   Yes, I was from the end of 1989 to the end of

          5  1997.

          6       Q.   Where is Backa Palanka located in relation to

          7  Ilok?

          8       A.   Backa Palanka is on the left-hand side of the

          9  Danube and Ilok is on the right bank.

         10       Q.   What are the links between Backa Palanka and

         11  Ilok?

         12       A.   The communications between Backa Palanka and

         13  Ilok were great, cultural sports and cultural

         14  relationships.

         15       Q.   Physically was there a bridge?

         16       A.   Yes, a bridge which was built up in 1974

         17  during Tito's reign.

         18       Q.   During the war events of 1991, the second

         19  half of 1991, how did you traverse the bridge; could

         20  you cross the bridge freely, or did you need a permit?

         21       A.   On both sides, the military authorities

         22  issued permits, both the Republic of Serbia and the

         23  Croatian side.

         24       Q.   What military authorities?

         25       A.   The military authorities that existed in

Page 2447

          1  Yugoslavia, whereas the other side had their own

          2  authorities, which gave permission for the community of

          3  Ilok to be able to go to Backa Palanka to work -- they

          4  were employed in Backa Palanka.

          5       Q.   At that time, did people leave Ilok towards

          6  Backa Palanka and why?

          7       A.   Yes, there were a fair number of mixed

          8  marriages -- there were Slovaks and Croats and they

          9  wanted to move to Yugoslavia and we allowed this

         10  relocation to take place.

         11       Q.   Do you know that the population of Ilok went

         12  over on -- that is, 17 October 1991?

         13       A.   Yes, these people, in keeping with the

         14  referendum in Ilok, those who wanted to stay in Ilok

         15  and those who wanted to move out -- in conformity with

         16  the military authorities, and civilian authorities,

         17  that took part in the negotiations, by referendum, most

         18  people said that they wanted to move towards the

         19  interior of Croatia.

         20            MR. FILA:  Will you show the witness now

         21  Prosecutor's exhibit number 5, it is the agreement on

         22  Ilok between -- while we are looking for that, you know

         23  that there was mediation?

         24       A.   Yes, the European Community and the United

         25  Nations and the people of Ilok and on the other side

Page 2448

          1  Colonel Grahovac and the army.

          2       Q.   When you say "army", because there are

          3  several armies would you please use the term "the

          4  Yugoslav People's Army" or "the Croatian army"?

          5       A.   This was the Yugoslav People's Army, which

          6  existed.

          7       Q.   Would you take a look at the introductory

          8  part and who this was signed by (Handed).  Would you

          9  read it out aloud?

         10       A.   "On the basis of a request by the inhabitants

         11  of Ilok and the referendum, all citizens are enabled

         12  from these settlements, as refugees, who commanded be

         13  allowed to leave this locality with members of their

         14  family.

         15            Number 2."

         16       Q.   Who is the signatory of the document?

         17       A.   Mate Brletic on the one side and colonel of

         18  the Yugoslav People's Army, Petar Grahovac on the

         19  other.

         20       Q.   Would you look at page number 1 and the

         21  introduction at the top -- could you read it clearly so

         22  that we can understand you?

         23       A.  "The military commander of the units of the

         24  JNA in Sid, represented by Major General Dragolub

         25  Arsenijevic, or Arandelovic" -- I cannot quite see --

Page 2449

          1  "and the representative of Ilok and Sarengrad, Mrsic

          2  Ivan as the mayor and Brletic Mate, as head of the

          3  police station in Ilok, Kraljevic Stipan, the President

          4  of the negotiating committee, and present were

          5  representatives of the European mission --"

          6            This is in English, "Hugo and Peter":

          7            "-- on 14 October in Sid."

          8            Will you tell us what that agreement

          9  represents -- what was the referendum, who requested

         10  permission to move out?

         11       A.   They did not have to move out, but the local

         12  authorities of Ilok wanted to sound the opinion of the

         13  people.

         14       Q.   On what question?

         15       A.   On the peaceful relocation of people towards

         16  the interior of Croatia.

         17       Q.   Were they coerced into this, were they made

         18  to do so?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   Did you in any way take part in these

         21  negotiations -- were you present?

         22       A.   As they were all my friends from Ilok and

         23  remain my friends and as they believed in me as a

         24  pacifist and as somebody who did a lot for Ilok's

         25  development, they asked me to attend these talks with

Page 2450

          1  their leadership where the agreement was in fact

          2  reached.

          3       Q.   During those talks, did some -- did anybody

          4  insist the population of Ilok should leave Ilok?

          5       A.   No.

          6       Q.   What was the referendum, what were the

          7  questions asked at the referendum?

          8       A.   The question was, "Who wishes to remain in

          9  Ilok and who wishes to move to Croatia?"

         10       Q.   And the people wishing to remain, what would

         11  they have to do?

         12       A.   Nothing -- to live normally like all the

         13  other citizens in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

         14       Q.   And to surrender their arms, of course,

         15  I hope?

         16       A.   Yes, to avoid armed conflict.

         17       Q.   Did Slavko Dokmanovic take part in those

         18  negotiations in any way?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   The SFRJ, that is what we are talking about,

         21  would you please refer to it as the SFRJ?

         22       A.   You know that Mr. Mesic and others left the

         23  SFRY in August of that year.

         24       Q.   It says SRJ and the correct title is SFRJ for

         25  the records, please, thank you.  Since when have you

Page 2451

          1  known Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic?

          2       A.   I have known him from 1990.  As he was the

          3  President of the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar, I was

          4  the mayor of Backa Palanka, and as they are two

          5  neighbouring towns and as we were all as cooperating

          6  economically culturally and in the sports field, we

          7  knew each other.

          8       Q.   How far did you -- until when did you

          9  cooperate with him as the President of the Municipal

         10  Assembly?

         11       A.   Until the end of May.

         12       Q.   What year was that?

         13       A.   1990, after the Croatian extremists forbid

         14  coming to Vukovar, the Croatian Government took a

         15  decision to dissolve their assembly, and Marin Vidic --

         16  Bili -- was appointed as some sort of executive

         17  president.

         18       Q.   Were you sure that was in 1990 and not 1991?

         19       A.   No, it was in 1990 -- 1991.

         20       Q.   Do you know anything about the attempts of

         21  Slavko Dokmanovic to solve conflicts peaceably?  Was he

         22  in favour of having issues between Croats and Serbs

         23  settled peaceably in the Vukovar area?

         24       A.   Yes.  Honourable court, I can say this, and

         25  this can be attested by both the television cameras of

Page 2452

          1  Zagreb and Belgrade, that Slavko was a pacifist and

          2  humanitarian and always sought to resolve problems

          3  peaceably, to retain Yugoslavia, Backa Palanka and

          4  Vukovar.

          5       Q.   Did he have any problems with this, with

          6  certain extremist Serbs, for example?

          7       A.   Well, he was precisely condemned by the Serb

          8  extremists, because he always opted for a peaceful

          9  option and wanted to have everybody stay in his own

         10  region and to live in a common State.  He encountered

         11  most of his problems with the Serbs, because they even

         12  asked for his physical liquidation.

         13       Q.   In the autumn of 1991, what functions did he

         14  perform?

         15       A.   He was Minister of Agriculture -- as he was a

         16  great expert in agriculture, he was the most

         17  distinguished and highly regarded expert for the crop

         18  of rape, and he was there to organise production, to

         19  sow and harvest the crops properly.

         20       Q.   Did you have any cooperation in that period?

         21       A.   Well, yes, he came for combine harvesters and

         22  fuel, to be able to deal with the harvest on time;

         23  particularly as that was a very rainy year, we had to

         24  work efficiently and quickly.

         25       Q.   Did you see him on 16 and 17 October in Ilok,

Page 2453

          1  in Backa Palanka -- that was when Ilok was --

          2       A.   Zdenko Vodicka, who on the 16th in the

          3  morning, came to me and asked me to call Slavko,

          4  because on the 17th he did not want to resettle or move

          5  to Croatia -- I informed him, he came to me on the 16th

          6  and he thought that it was on the 16th that he was to

          7  help Zdenko and I said no, this was tomorrow, the

          8  moving was to take place tomorrow, and on the 17th,

          9  Slavko came with Rade Leskovac, we went in the

         10  afternoon hours to the bridge on the Ilok side and from

         11  that column we took over Zdenko Vodicka, who crossed by

         12  car and we came to Backa Palanka and they went off

         13  towards Trpinja and his wife remained in Vukovar.

         14       Q.   Was that the only reason why Slavko

         15  Dokmanovic came to Ilok, to help Zlatko?

         16       A.   Yes, because they were great friends and have

         17  remained great friends.

         18       Q.   On 20 November 1991, did some individuals

         19  come to your office and who were these individuals?

         20       A.   On 20 November, the President of the

         21  Municipal Assembly of Kladovo came to me and he also

         22  came for economic cooperation among certain companies

         23  and firms.  He came to my office and afterwards Jovo

         24  Cvetkovic, the President of the Jagodina Municipality

         25  and of Ursac, Dragoslav Aleksic came as well, and

Page 2454

          1  Slavko came to my office as well, and of course there

          2  was the journalist from Kladovo, who filmed all this --

          3  filmed the meeting.

          4       Q.   Was this an official meeting or an informal

          5  more or less friendly meeting?

          6       A.   A friendly meeting in my office, so that we

          7  could meet, and they then left for Vukovar, and they

          8  were given permits to be able to cross the bridge.

          9       Q.   Could they cross the bridge otherwise?

         10       A.   No, permits were needed.

         11       Q.   Did Slavko Dokmanovic have an official post?

         12       A.   No, he was just in the sphere of agriculture,

         13  within the Ministry.

         14       Q.   It will be interesting to know how you recall

         15  that this was exactly on 20 November?

         16       A.   Because -- from my agenda, where I made a

         17  note of all my meetings, and when Slavko was arrested,

         18  I had a look to see what happened -- the events as they

         19  happened, and, once I retire, I wanted to do some

         20  writing, and I saw that he had visited me precisely on

         21  the 20th.

         22            MR. FILA:  Before I show you the tape, your

         23  Honours, I am going to go on to identify what Slavko

         24  Dokmanovic was wearing, according to our civil law

         25  system, and the witness can explain this -- describe

Page 2455

          1  it.  Will you -- can you recall 20 November 1991?  What

          2  was Slavko Dokmanovic wearing on that day?  I know that

          3  a lot of time has gone by -- many years have gone by?

          4       A.   Yes, they did not have water and electricity,

          5  so he was wearing a hunting uniform, which did not have

          6  to be washed like other clothing, as often as other

          7  clothing.

          8       Q.   And did you have any electricity and water in

          9  Backa Palanka?

         10       A.   Yes, we did.

         11       Q.   Was the situation the same as Vukovar, are

         12  they two States?

         13       A.   They are two States now, but not then.

         14       Q.   Can I conclude that, if there is water in

         15  Backa Palanka and electricity, the same does not apply

         16  to Trpinja and Vukovar?

         17       A.   There could not have been any water supply or

         18  electricity, because the electrical system had been

         19  destroyed.

         20            MR. FILA:  May I now have a look at the tape?

         21  Before we look at the tape, I should like to show the

         22  witness the clothing worn by Slavko Dokmanovic and ask

         23  whether that is the particular clothing that he saw him

         24  wearing.  This would be a Defence exhibit.  It is

         25  composed of three parts -- a shirt and the rest.  Would

Page 2456

          1  you please show it to the witness?

          2            THE REGISTRAR:    That is marked as D48.

          3            MR. FILA:   Will you take the items out one by

          4  one, please.

          5            JUDGE MUMBA:    Before the witness says

          6  anything, I just want to be sure, are you saying, as

          7  the Defence, that those are the clothes he wore, or

          8  that those clothes are similar to what Dokmanovic was

          9  wearing on the 20th?

         10            MR. FILA:   Your Honours, we maintain that

         11  that is exactly the clothing -- that particular

         12  clothing is what he was wearing on that particular day

         13  -- not similar but that clothing precisely -- original

         14  clothing?

         15       A.   You can see that it is hunting clothing, this

         16  is where the bullets go, hunter's keep their bullets,

         17  and it was good protection for health reasons.  This

         18  was the shirt worn underneath -- this came on top, and

         19  then followed by this vest, and the trousers -- you can

         20  look at the size and everything else -- it is hunting

         21  trousers.

         22       Q.   You were there for a long time and you had

         23  contacts with the army.  Does a uniform of the Yugoslav

         24  People's Army of this kind exist?

         25       A.   Not like this.

Page 2457

          1       Q.   Can we then conclude this is what?

          2       A.   It is a hunting suit.

          3            MR. FILA:  I should like to tender this as

          4  Defence Exhibit 48.

          5            MR. WILLIAMSON:   No objection.

          6            MR. FILA:   I should now like to ask us to

          7  play the tape for the witness.

          8            Your Honours, he is at the very start of the

          9  tape, because he did not go to Vukovar later, so it is

         10  a very brief tape -- I do not want to tire you with too

         11  many videotapes today, and would the witness say that

         12  he recognises his own appearance when he appears --

         13  could he tell us that it is himself appearing.

         14                    (Videotape played)

         15            MR. FILA:   That was on 20 November at 8.37.

         16       Q.   Where is this?

         17       A.   This is Backa Palanka, the Municipal

         18  Assembly.

         19                    (Videotape played)

         20            THE INTERPRETER:  They have the town -- this

         21  costs 50 kilos of bullets, 2,000 marks.  I have two

         22  certificates for the first four years of primary

         23  school.  That is Backa Palanka."

         24       A.   I am not on the tape yet.

         25       Q.   But you will show us when you appear on the

Page 2458

          1  tape, please.

          2                    (Videotape played)

          3            THE INTERPRETER:  The date of birth, the

          4  place of birth, I love freedom -- that is the first

          5  inscription.  The second is 'I love Marija' -- 'I love

          6  you Marija'.  Pezerovic Zeljko, Celarevo with the

          7  telephone number, that is the address."

          8       A.   That is me, I am smoking a cigarette.

          9            MR. FILA:   I would now like to show the

         10  witness some photographs -- that is the photograph of

         11  the witness on the tape, and we can carry on with the

         12  tape, so that you can see when this photograph occurs

         13  on the tape -- this image.  This is a still of the

         14  tape.

         15            THE REGISTRAR:    D49.

         16            MR. FILA:   When that still turns up, would

         17  you please tell us?

         18                    (Videotape played)

         19       A.   Here we are, that is it -- that is the still,

         20  the one I showed you, yes.

         21       Q.   Could your voice be heard on the tape

         22  previous to this?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Will you tell us some of the individuals,

         25  their names, who appear?

Page 2459

          1       A.   I saw Nebojsa Lazarevic, I saw Jova Cvetkovic

          2  and the one that took the videotape.

          3       Q.   I should like to ask you something else.  Did

          4  you see Slavko Dokmanovic wearing this uniform earlier

          5  on, on some other occasion, in the course of these

          6  months -- did he wear anything else -- anything

          7  different?

          8       A.   I saw him wearing this uniform, this hunting

          9  suit, during the harvest and sometimes he wore jeans,

         10  when it was warmer -- when the weather was warmer.

         11            MR. FILA:   Your Honours, this concludes my

         12  examination of the witness, thank you.

         13            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  Mr. Williamson?

         14             Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

         15            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Mr. Novakovic, what was

         16  Nebojsa Lazarevic wearing on 20 November 1991?

         17       A.   Well, it was a long time ago -- sometimes he

         18  was dressed in a sports manner and sometimes he wore a

         19  tie -- he was a rather elegant man, so he would wear a

         20  tie.

         21       Q.   What about Mr. Cvetkovic, what was he wearing

         22  on 20 November?

         23       A.   As he was a deputy with me, he was always

         24  nicely dressed.

         25       Q.   Could you be a little more specific?  What

Page 2460

          1  colour clothing was he wearing on that day, can you

          2  describe it in the same detail that you have described

          3  Mr. Dokmanovic's clothes?

          4       A.   Well, you must understand that seven or eight

          5  years have elapsed since that time -- Slavko was always

          6  characteristically dressed -- because there was no

          7  water and electricity, he usually wore the hunting suit

          8  that we saw -- but my recollections, my memory -- I do

          9  not know if I saw it on tape, because a lot of time has

         10  gone by -- I am not quite sure.

         11            MR. WILLIAMSON:   The noise is not a problem

         12  for the court or for the court reporters or anything?

         13            THE REGISTRAR:    It seems to be a problem

         14  with the interpreters.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:   Why do we not move on in the

         16  hope that they will have stopped?

         17            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Mr. Novakovic, how often did

         18  you see Slavko Dokmanovic during the course of the

         19  battle in Vukovar, during the autumn of 1991?

         20       A.   I do not want to talk about the battle --

         21  I want to talk about the matters that I dealt with,

         22  with Slavko, concerning the harvest, and tractors, fuel

         23  -- combine harvesters -- that sort of thing.

         24       Q.   I am asking you -- I mention the battle as a

         25  time frame, the autumn of 1991, how often did you see

Page 2461

          1  him?

          2       A.   Whenever he had me to come, he came.

          3       Q.   How often was that?

          4       A.   Well, I would have to look at my personal

          5  papers that I keep -- I said that at the beginning --

          6  I would have to look at my agenda.

          7       Q.   Can you say is this once, twice, five times,

          8  20 times -- I mean, you should have some idea how often

          9  you saw him?

         10       A.   Quite a few times.

         11       Q.   Do you recall meeting with an investigator

         12  from the Office of the Prosecutor, a Mr. Kevin Curtis,

         13  on 20 February this year?

         14       A.   I remember that they visited me, but they had

         15  not announced themselves and they were very fair and

         16  I wish that this Tribunal would remain as fair as they

         17  were with me, until the very end.

         18       Q.   And do you recall telling Mr. Curtis that you

         19  saw Slavko Dokmanovic on a regular basis, pretty much

         20  every other day?

         21       A.   I had said that he saw me as often as he

         22  needed, which was quite a few times, so I would have to

         23  go through my agenda to count all those times.

         24       Q.   Do you have your agenda in court here today?

         25       A.   No, I had not brought my agenda, because

Page 2462

          1  nobody had told me it would be necessary, but I can

          2  bring it, whenever you want me to.

          3       Q.   Why was there such frequent contact between

          4  you and Mr. Dokmanovic?

          5       A.   Well, first of all, you have to be aware of

          6  the fact that we had become good friends when he was

          7  the president of the municipality and also he

          8  constantly needed assistance for agriculture, because,

          9  after the summer harvest, there was the work that

         10  needed to be done in the fields during the autumn, and

         11  for that you also needed all the machinery.

         12       Q.   And, as president of the municipality, were

         13  you commonly referred to as the mayor of Backa Palanka?

         14       A.   First of all, I am not the mayor; I am the

         15  president of the Municipal Assembly.

         16       Q.   And were you ever commonly referred to as the

         17  mayor?

         18       A.   No.  Since according to our statute on the

         19  local self-government, it says the president of the

         20  Municipal Assembly and together with the 41 assembly

         21  men, he has equal rights as all of them and he only

         22  authorises the Executive Council.  That is the only

         23  role that he has -- the only specific role that he has.

         24       Q.   I assume the same would be true for

         25  Mr. Dokmanovic?

Page 2463

          1       A.   Well, at that time period that you are asking

          2  me about, he was not the president of the Municipal

          3  Assembly -- he was the Minister of Agriculture.

          4       Q.   But, previously, when he had been the

          5  president of the municipality, the same would be true

          6  then?

          7       A.   Well, I suppose that in Croatia they had the

          8  same law on self-government -- every Republic had its

          9  own specific rules regarding the local self-government.

         10       Q.   Throughout your discussions with Mr. Curtis,

         11  you do not recall referring to Mr. Dokmanovic as the

         12  mayor of Vukovar throughout that entire talk, and also

         13  referring to yourself as the mayor?

         14       A.   No, I was not a mayor -- you can check our

         15  law on self-government and local administration in

         16  Serbia and Yugoslavia.

         17       Q.   Now, you have indicated that you had water

         18  and electricity in Backa Palanka -- this was throughout

         19  the course of the autumn of 1991?

         20       A.   Backa Palanka always had water and

         21  electricity supply.

         22       Q.   And you said that -- you were seeing

         23  Mr. Dokmanovic on a regular basis.  Did you notice any

         24  particular odour associated with him?

         25       A.   Well, you could feel the smell of sweat, the

Page 2464

          1  hunting uniform did give off -- I do not know how to

          2  explain this -- but it was the smell of sweat.

          3       Q.   You were a good friend of Mr. Dokmanovic's,

          4  would you not say?

          5       A.   I am still his friend.

          6       Q.   And, during this entire two- or three-month

          7  period, on all of his visits to Backa Palanka, he never

          8  asked you if he could take a bath or perhaps wash some

          9  clothes, or do something like that in Backa Palanka?

         10       A.   I did offer that to him, but he refused.

         11       Q.   You said that you had electricity and water

         12  in Backa Palanka.  Was it not true that Backa Palanka

         13  also provided water and electricity to Ilok?

         14       A.   Ilok and several villages around Ilok, they

         15  did receive electricity from us.

         16       Q.   Were you responsible for the blackout of

         17  electricity for five days to Ilok in September, to put

         18  pressure on the people there to move?

         19       A.   No, because it was not in my jurisdiction --

         20  this was up to the power supply company.

         21       Q.   Why was electric power maintained in Backa

         22  Palanka but was cut off to Ilok -- who made that

         23  decision?

         24       A.   That decision was not made by anyone.  You

         25  have to be aware of the fact that electricity can be

Page 2465

          1  cut off when there is a severe thunderstorm.

          2       Q.   But if you have electricity in Ilok -- sorry,

          3  in Backa Palanka, but you do not have it in Ilok for

          4  five days and you have the same source of electricity,

          5  where did the problem come from?

          6       A.   I do not know about that fact that Ilok's

          7  electricity supply was cut off -- I cannot accept that

          8  fact.

          9       Q.   Do you know anything about the supply of

         10  yeast being cut off to Ilok, thus making it impossible

         11  for them to make bread?

         12       A.   No, I did not know that they did not have

         13  electricity.

         14       Q.   Could you explain perhaps why several

         15  thousand people would just decide out of the clear blue

         16  to abandon their homes and move to some other place if

         17  there was no pressure put on them?

         18       A.   There was no pressure and the referendum

         19  proves that.

         20       Q.   So you think this was a free vote, that

         21  several thousand people would just decide to leave

         22  their homes that they had built or owned and just move

         23  away with their belongings that they can take in a car?

         24       A.   You can check that with the European

         25  Community.

Page 2466

          1       Q.   But I am asking you, why would several

          2  thousand people do this, out of the clear blue, if

          3  there was no pressure put on them?

          4       A.   I am asking you -- why did many Serbs and

          5  Slovaks and others, as well as honest Croats, why did

          6  they move out voluntarily?

          7       Q.   Would you answer my question?  Why did

          8  several thousand people leave Ilok if there was no

          9  pressure put on them -- it is a very simple question.

         10  I understand there was a referendum, but why did they

         11  choose to leave?

         12       A.   Because they wanted to be closer to their

         13  matrix country.

         14       Q.   They were in their matrix country, were they

         15  not?

         16       A.   Well, the referendum tells you everything.

         17  They were afraid of the war, just as we were in Backa

         18  Palanka -- we were in the same position.

         19       Q.   Now, what happened to the people in Lovas,

         20  Babska, Trvarjni, Sarengrad, Movo and Sotinj -- all

         21  those Croatian villages, all those people who had come

         22  to Ilok, you do not think that in any way affected

         23  their decision to move?

         24       A.   I do not know about that -- you will have to

         25  ask that from the people in Ilok.

Page 2467

          1       Q.   What about an ultimatum that was given to the

          2  people of Babska which came about as part of the same

          3  negotiations over Ilok in which the JNA threatened to

          4  flatten the town?

          5       A.   First of all, I do not know anything about

          6  that fact and it is outside of my competence.

          7       Q.   So, just to conclude this, it is your

          8  contention that the people in Ilok left there totally

          9  voluntarily, gave up their homes and moved just because

         10  they wanted to be somewhere else.  There was no

         11  pressure exerted on them whatsoever, by the JNA or by

         12  anyone?

         13       A.   When they left, many still went to work to

         14  Backa Palanka and many still do, until this date.

         15       Q.   Now, you have indicated that the reason for

         16  Mr. Dokmanovic being on the bridge on 17 October was

         17  that he had come there because of his friend, Zlatko

         18  Vodicka?

         19       A.   That is right.

         20       Q.   That is contrary to what you had told

         21  Mr. Curtis, is it not?

         22       A.   No, what I am saying now is the truth, and it

         23  can be verified.

         24            MR. FILA:   Your Honour, I fail to understand

         25  as regards what this witness was saying to Mr. Curtis --

Page 2468

          1  has this been tendered into evidence?  Can I see that,

          2  or is this again some story containing assertions?

          3  I have insisted several times.  For instance, I asked

          4  Dr. Bosanac, why did Serbs come out of Vukovar, she told

          5  me to ask the Serbs.  Now I have asked the Serbs and

          6  you have heard what they have said but I was not

          7  talking about what was said to somebody else.  Who is

          8  this man Curtis, what were they talking about and what

          9  is the basis for the Prosecutor claiming that this

         10  witness had said something else before?  I have not

         11  seen this statement.

         12            MR. WILLIAMSON:   This is entirely appropriate

         13  cross-examination.  This man has given a statement to

         14  the Prosecutor.  I have notes based on that and I am

         15  questioning him on it.  He has the opportunity either

         16  to confirm it or deny it and then, during the course of

         17  our rebuttal case, if he has denied this, we will be

         18  happy to put on Mr. Curtis to testify under oath as to

         19  exactly what was said.

         20            JUDGE CASSESE:   May I ask you what you have

         21  got from Mr. Curtis -- notes or a statement signed by

         22  the witness?

         23            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I have notes, not a signed

         24  statement.

         25            JUDGE CASSESE:   Notes by Mr. Curtis?

Page 2469

          1            MR. WILLIAMSON:   That is correct.

          2            (Pause).

          3            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Williamson, I think you

          4  can go on asking questions to the witness about what he

          5  said to Mr. Curtis, provided that afterwards you can

          6  produce him as a rebuttal witness to contradict --

          7            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Absolutely.  Mr. Fila would

          8  have ample opportunity to cross-examine him, to

          9  question him on anything that he says.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:   You may go on.

         11            MR. WILLIAMSON:   Do you remember telling

         12  Mr. Curtis that the reason that Slavko Dokmanovic was on

         13  the bridge at Ilok on 17 October was that you and he

         14  were both there to ensure that everything went

         15  smoothly, and that you had been authorised to be there

         16  by your assembly, and that Slavko had been authorised,

         17  because he was the Minister of Agriculture, and he

         18  still felt as if he were the mayor of his municipality?

         19       A.   Regarding this investigation you are talking

         20  about, I only speak my native language -- I do not know

         21  what has been written down, because I have not signed

         22  anything.  It would be fair of you to let me read this

         23  and sign it.  I told you why Slavko was there -- to get

         24  Mr. Vojdicka out, because Mr. Vojdicka wanted to go to

         25  Trpinja because his wife stayed behind in Vukovar.

Page 2470

          1  I think I was quite clear.

          2       Q.   Was there an interpreter present when

          3  Mr. Curtis was speaking with you?

          4       A.   There was a girl, a woman -- I do not know.

          5       Q.   Was there a recruiting office for the

          6  Territorial Defences in Backa Palanka?

          7       A.   No, it was within the jurisdiction of the

          8  Serbian Territorial Defence -- it is not in the

          9  jurisdiction of the municipality.

         10       Q.   But I am asking was there a recruiting office

         11  for the Territorial Defence geographically located in

         12  Backa Palanka?

         13       A.   The recruiting centre for our district was in

         14  Novi Sad.  They only have two -- an office with two

         15  officials in our town.

         16       Q.   Now, you said that Mr. Dokmanovic was very

         17  moderate -- a pacifist, a great humanitarian who sought

         18  to retain Yugoslavia.  Were you aware of his activities

         19  with the Serbian National Council as early as January

         20  1991?

         21       A.   I am not aware of the fact and I still

         22  maintain that Slavko still thinks that it would have

         23  been best if Yugoslavia had remained whole and he is a

         24  pacifist -- proof of that is the fact that his own

         25  people wanted to liquidate him, because he was such a

Page 2471

          1  great Yugoslav.

          2       Q.   Were you familiar with this group, "the Serb

          3  National Council"?

          4       A.   Well, not really -- only what I learned from

          5  the papers.

          6       Q.   Do you recall telling Mr. Curtis that you felt

          7  that since you still considered Slavko Dokmanovic the

          8  president of the municipality, you thought it was

          9  important to keep him informed about what was going on

         10  in Ilok?

         11       A.   No, in May, he left that post -- actually, he

         12  was removed forcibly, but since he was still the

         13  Minister of Agriculture, since this was his native

         14  region and his municipality, he liked to hear what was

         15  going on, and many from the Ilok leadership met with

         16  Slavko, because they thought him to be a great man, and

         17  the man who was the most popular person in that region

         18  in the times of Yugoslavia.

         19       Q.   You told Mr. Curtis, I believe, that

         20  Mr. Dokmanovic was very upset about the destruction in

         21  Vukovar and even broke down in tears -- is that

         22  correct?

         23       A.   That is correct.  When we talked in private,

         24  he cried many times, because he could not believe that

         25  Vukovar could look what it looks like, because the

Page 2472

          1  provocations came first from the Ustashi and you know

          2  what happened in the end.

          3       Q.   And you also said that he felt great rage

          4  against Mercep, Seks and Glavas as the persons

          5  responsible for what happened in Vukovar; right?

          6       A.   I assume that this Tribunal has the

          7  information and this can be verified through the

          8  European Community.

          9            JUDGE CASSESE:   Can you answer this question

         10  -- this is whether you remember saying all that, that

         11  you felt great rage against Mercep -- this is the

         12  question put by the Prosecutor.

         13            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I am sorry, it was not that

         14  he felt great rage, that Mr. Dokmanovic.

         15            JUDGE CASSESE:   Sorry, I apologise.

         16            JUDGE CASSESE:   Do you remember?

         17       A.   I remember that we did mention those three

         18  names -- because everybody knew what their nationalist

         19  views were.

         20            MR. WILLIAMSON:   And do you recall if he

         21  expressed rage at them as being the persons responsible

         22  for what had happened in Vukovar?

         23       A.   Well, the Serbian people know this best, and

         24  the local Croats and Slovaks.

         25       Q.   You still have not answered my question,

Page 2473

          1  Mr. Novakovic.  This is the third time I have put it to

          2  you: do you recall if Mr. Dokmanovic expressed rage at

          3  these people as the ones responsible for the

          4  destruction of Vukovar -- "Yes" or "No", and then

          5  explain?

          6       A.   Well, of course, he felt it and I still feel

          7  that they are the most responsible, by doing what they

          8  did in May -- those three persons -- and they were at

          9  the forefront during the war.

         10       Q.   If they were the ones responsible and this

         11  was just a response from the Serbs, why was it

         12  necessary for all the Croatian people to leave that

         13  region?

         14       A.   First of all, it is not true that all the

         15  Croats had left.  You can verify that through the

         16  European Community -- they have the exact number of

         17  people who had left.

         18       Q.   Mr. Novakovic, are you telling this court that

         19  the vast majority of Croatian people did not leave the

         20  region of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem in

         21  1991?

         22       A.   Well, a part of them did leave the area.

         23       Q.   A part?

         24       A.   Just as a part of Serbs did leave Slavonia

         25  and Baranja and came to Backa Palanka, Sombor, Odzak,

Page 2474

          1  Novi Sad.

          2            MR. FILA:   Objection.  He insists on the

          3  witness giving him the answer he wants.  He said "a

          4  part of Croats" and that should be enough.  The

          5  Prosecutor is arguing with the witness.

          6            MR. WILLIAMSON:   I have no further questions

          7  of this witness.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Fila.

          9                  Re-examined by MR. FILA

         10            MR. FILA:   Your Honour, I would like those

         11  notes.  If you see that somebody is using something

         12  before this court, and as far as I know, in the

         13  Anglo-Saxon law, those notes should be shown and

         14  translated in order for them to be used, because they

         15  are being used before this court and they are

         16  non-existent.  What if Mr. Curtis fails to testify

         17  tomorrow?  As far as I know, that is the came Mr. Curtis

         18  who lied to Mr. Dokmanovic that he would be able to go

         19  back safely, so that is the man who lied once before.

         20  He guaranteed Dokmanovic safety and lured him into

         21  Croatia, and he stated before this Tribunal that he had

         22  used deception to get close to Dokmanovic and to have

         23  him arrested, if that is the same gentleman, and

         24  I would have to see those notes in order to verify

         25  their existence, if they are indeed being used before

Page 2475

          1  this Tribunal.  I am just asking a legal question.

          2            What if Mr. Curtis failed to testify?  Then

          3  what is the basis for the questioning of this witness?

          4  I want to see those notes.

          5            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Niemann?

          6            MR. NIEMANN:    A question of failure to

          7  testify is a matter which we would deal with

          8  appropriately at the time.  These notes are notes which

          9  were taken down and given to the Prosecutor for the

         10  purposes of examining witnesses who were going to be

         11  called by the Defence.  At the end of the day it is

         12  incumbent on the Prosecution to call the witness and to

         13  have the witness attest to these matters.  There is no

         14  obligation under the Rules to produce notes -- notes

         15  are a matter of work product.  They are not matters

         16  which are discoverable under the Rules and, your

         17  Honours, at the end of the day, if there are any notes

         18  made by the witness, which he would rely upon for the

         19  purpose of his testimony, the appropriate time is then

         20  for Mr. Fila to call for them and say, "I want to

         21  inspect those notes," and then they can be made

         22  available at that stage.  It is inappropriate at the

         23  moment to be asking for them.

         24            JUDGE CASSESE:   Yes.  Mr. Fila, have you got

         25  any questions in re-examination of your witness?

Page 2476

          1            MR. FILA:   No, I would just like the witness

          2  to have a look at the notes and to tell us what those

          3  notes are.  I keep saying that these notes do not

          4  exist.  I do not know who those notes belong to --

          5  until I have seen them.  I got my name according --

          6  I was named after Saint Thomas and he did not believe

          7  until he saw.

          8            JUDGE CASSESE:   Mr. Fila, we have just heard

          9  from the Prosecutor that the notes do exist but the

         10  Prosecutor has no duty to produce them in court.  You

         11  do not have any questions for re-examination?

         12            JUDGE MAY:  Can you help us with this -- the

         13  meeting on 20 November, we saw the video of it.  What

         14  was the meeting about?

         15       A.   Since the guests arrived and since they had

         16  probably arranged that with Slavko, they had their own

         17  agenda or programme, where they went, they went across

         18  with the permit of the military authorities, we had

         19  coffee at my place, we discussed what the situation

         20  was, what was going to happen later, and whether any

         21  assistance was needed to repair things -- since there

         22  was a lot of destruction in the agricultural field.

         23            JUDGE CASSESE:   I have a question.  Is it

         24  correct to say that Ilok was under the jurisdiction of

         25  the regional government for the District of Slavonia,

Page 2477

          1  Baranja and Western Srem?

          2       A.   I cannot remember that, whether it was under

          3  their jurisdiction, but I assume that, at that time,

          4  the Croatian authorities held that part of Ilok,

          5  Sarengrad and Babska.

          6            JUDGE CASSESE:   You met Mr. Dokmanovic on 17

          7  October 1991.  Was he wearing the hunting suit, or a

          8  normal civilian suit?

          9       A.   No, he was wearing the hunting clothes.

         10            JUDGE CASSESE:   Thank you.  I assume there

         11  is no objection to the witness being released, so thank

         12  you for coming here to give evidence.  You may be

         13  released.

         14            We stand adjourned until tomorrow.

         15       A.   I would like to thank you, too.

         16                  (The witness withdrew)

         17           (At 1.15 p.m. the matter adjourned until

         18            Tuesday, 28 April 1998, at 8.30am)