1. 1 Monday, 18 May 1998

    2 (In open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.44 a.m.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. I would like

    6 the registrar to call out the case number, please.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour.

    8 IT-95-13a-T, the Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: The appearances, please.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, my name is

    11 Niemann, and I appear with my colleagues,

    12 Mr. Williamson, Mr. Waespi, and Mr. Vos for the

    13 Prosecution.

    14 MR. FILA: Good morning, my name is Tomas

    15 Fila. I appear with my colleagues Mr. Petrovic and

    16 Mr. Kostic, council for the accused Slavko Dokmanovic.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear

    18 me well. Is your language accessible to you? Thank

    19 you.

    20 Before we start, let us deal briefly with a

    21 few housekeeping matters. First of all, we thought --

    22 I start with minor problems. We thought we can do

    23 without the appearances so as to save time, and for

    24 this purpose, I would assume that if there are no

    25 changes in the various teams, the Prosecution and

  2. 1 Defence teams, we take it for granted that the

    2 stenographers will write down the usual names unless,

    3 as I say, we are warned by one of the teams and there

    4 will be changes to be recorded.

    5 Let us now -- a second small matter. Two

    6 witness statements are missing in our files, and the

    7 statements by Mr. Melitic vis Sejlaslav (phoen) and the

    8 statement by Mr. Nikulavic (phoen) Dusan. No judge has

    9 been able to find those statements. Yes, Mr. Fila?

    10 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I'm sorry. We

    11 haven't taken their statements because we brought them

    12 in all of a sudden, so to speak, but their testimonies

    13 will be very brief. They have to do with two hours

    14 only, and they're not related to Vukovar, so perhaps if

    15 our time is running out, then perhaps the Prosecutor

    16 and we can have a look at this and we can agree on it

    17 without contesting it after seeing the video, so it is

    18 two hours altogether. There won't be any problems,

    19 really. You will see, thank you.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection from the

    21 Prosecution?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: We'll just have to have a

    23 discussion, Your Honours.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Thank you. Another

    25 problem, I understand the Prosecutor has no objection

  3. 1 to adding two witnesses to the list of witnesses to be

    2 heard through video link next Monday, if this is so.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: We will issue an order today,

    5 that it is accepted, the motion by the Defence has been

    6 then granted.

    7 Before we move on again briefly to our court

    8 schedule, I would like to raise a problem again with

    9 the parties. We thought we should, of course, if the

    10 parties are agreeable, we might or we apply some new

    11 Rules of Procedure which are likely to be adopted

    12 pretty soon by the Plenary of all Judges, and this is

    13 about sentencing.

    14 Now, one Rule can be read as follows: "The

    15 parties" -- this is about the presentation of

    16 evidence -- and "parties may present evidence at the

    17 trial including any relevant information that may

    18 assist the Trial Chamber in determining an appropriate

    19 sentence if the accused is found guilty on one or more

    20 of the charges in the indictment."

    21 So I will read it again: "The parties may

    22 present evidence on any relevant information that may

    23 assist the Trial Chamber in determining an appropriate

    24 sentence if the accused is found guilty on one or more

    25 of the charges in the indictment."

  4. 1 Another Rule would provide as follows: It's

    2 a Rule about closing arguments by the parties: "The

    3 parties shall also address in their closing arguments

    4 matters of sentencing in closing arguments." So the

    5 parties shall also address matters of sentencing in

    6 closing arguments.

    7 Of course, this would be Rules which apply in

    8 any case, even if eventually the accused is acquitted.

    9 I stress this point. So this, of course, is regardless

    10 of whether or not then eventually the accused is

    11 acquitted or convicted.

    12 I wonder whether -- so we would be pleased to

    13 apply these provisions which are not yet binding which

    14 are likely to become a set of Rules of Procedure and

    15 Evidence, but, of course, we would like to have the

    16 agreement of the parties. So I wonder whether Mr. Fila

    17 would agree.

    18 MR. FILA: Your Honour, I am one of the

    19 members of the team that actually proposed this, so I

    20 have to agree with what I had proposed myself. Thank

    21 you.

    22 I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just one more

    23 thing. I think that if we start applying this, it is

    24 impossible to do it at this particular point in time,

    25 we have to leave it until June. We simply won't have

  5. 1 time to do it.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, because I assume you

    3 would call additional witnesses.

    4 MR. FILA: Yes. Not too many really, two or

    5 three.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. That's why we are

    7 now raising this problem because I will immediately

    8 move on after hearing the Prosecutor to the court

    9 schedule for our trial.

    10 Mr. Niemann?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, as I understand

    12 the proposed new Rule, the evidence on sentencing will

    13 be called as part of the Defence case, and then the

    14 Prosecution rebuttal to the Defence case will be

    15 something that follows after all of the close of the

    16 evidence of the Defence. If that's the case, we have

    17 no difficulty with that.

    18 The issue with respect to closing argument,

    19 we don't have any problem with that.

    20 Your Honours have asked us to put in our

    21 closing argument in writing, which we are prepared to

    22 do, happy to do. But there is one application we do

    23 make, and that is that both parties file their closing

    24 argument on the same day because we don't -- we submit

    25 that it would be inappropriate that the arguments be,

  6. 1 in a sense, presented to the court one in reply to the

    2 other. It should be, in our submission, the views of

    3 either party submitted at the same time.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: I see that Mr. Fila does

    5 agree.

    6 Yes, all right. So you don't have any

    7 objection to the possible application of the new

    8 rules. The problem arises also because of the time

    9 available to us. Now, we have this week two and a half

    10 days, then the whole of next week, and then we have to

    11 start again our hearing on the 22nd of June, no longer

    12 on the date which had been scheduled. On the 22nd of

    13 June, but the advantage of that week would be that we

    14 would have five working days, from the 22nd to the 26th

    15 of June, and so I wonder whether we could -- of course,

    16 we don't want to, in any manner, restrict the rights of

    17 the Defence because without saying that -- if need be,

    18 we will go on to July, and we will see whether we can

    19 find some time, but I wonder whether it is possible for

    20 the Defence to finish the whole trial by the 26th of

    21 June, so whether you could call your own witnesses plus

    22 any witnesses on the possible sentencing?

    23 Sorry, one second. Because if we take up the

    24 suggestion as made by Mr. Niemann, we could have just

    25 one day for closing arguments, and this could be, say,

  7. 1 Friday, the 26th of June. So morning and afternoon.

    2 So I wonder whether we could hear the

    3 evidence before the 26th of June? Mr. Fila?

    4 MR. FILA: Your Honour, as I promised, I'm

    5 going to complete all the evidence by the end of next

    6 week, and I had planned on leaving Friday for

    7 Mr. Niemann so that he could present his rebuttal case,

    8 as requested, but the new Rule that we will be applying

    9 now, perhaps we need only a day, not even an entire

    10 day, because the witnesses that will be speaking will

    11 be speaking about the character of the accused, so we

    12 don't really need that much time. I think one day is

    13 sufficient for that, the 22nd, for example. And then

    14 until Friday we can see when we are going to give each

    15 other our closing arguments because I have nine

    16 witnesses here today, Your Honour. Out of these nine

    17 witnesses, four are like the ones that you don't have

    18 their statements. We can finish this in half an hour,

    19 and if they are not contested in any way, we don't even

    20 have to hear them. We can finish with five witnesses

    21 in these two and a half days, but we will have a look

    22 at the tape and see what it's about. Thank you.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

    24 MR. NIEMANN: It depends on how long there is

    25 available in June, but it looks as though we could

  8. 1 probably do it in that time, Your Honours. We would be

    2 reasonably optimistic.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Now, tomorrow,

    4 just a few practical indications. Tomorrow, since we

    5 have to have a long break, a lunch break from a quarter

    6 to twelve to three o'clock, I would like to suggest

    7 that we should start at 9.00, if it is suitable, 9.00,

    8 and then we will have this long break, and then we go

    9 on from 3.00 to 6.00, if possible. Then on Wednesday

    10 we will start again, as usual, at 9.30 to 12.30, and

    11 then from 2.00 to 5.00 -- sorry, on Wednesday we will

    12 stop at 12.30 because, as you know, this courtroom must

    13 be made available to another Trial Chamber.

    14 Is that all right?

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, that's acceptable

    16 to the Prosecution. I might just indicate at this

    17 stage that I regret that I won't be available all of

    18 that time. I have another case, a commitment on

    19 another matter, but my colleagues will be here.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. So we

    21 may now start with the first witness.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning, Mr. Jevtovic.

    23 May I ask you to stand and make the solemn

    24 declaration?

    25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

  9. 1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    2 truth.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila?


    5 Examined by Mr. Fila.

    6 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, did the investigator, the Fila

    7 legal office, Mr. Miro Lazarevic, did he talk to

    8 you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Have you read this statement?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Have you signed this statement?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Is this the statement in question?

    15 MR. FILA: It is in Serbian and in English.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D68

    17 and the English translation D68A.

    18 A. Yes, that is the statement in question.

    19 MR. FILA: If there are no objections, I

    20 suggest it be admitted into evidence as D68.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

    22 MR. FILA: D68A-2.

    23 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, did you graduate from the

    24 faculty of philosophy in Belgrade and did you get your

    25 MA from the faculty of political sciences in Belgrade?

  10. 1 A. No, I graduated from the faculty of political

    2 sciences and got my MA there too.

    3 Q. In 1991, were you employed in Radio Djerdap

    4 and what were you actually doing?

    5 A. I was director and editor in chief of Radio

    6 Djerdap.

    7 Q. Is that what you do now too?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. On the 20th of November, 1991, did you travel

    10 to Vukovar, and why?

    11 A. Yes, I travelled to Vukovar on business, and

    12 under instructions of the President of the Municipality

    13 of Kladovo.

    14 Q. Would you look at these documents and explain

    15 what they say?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 MR. FILA: The documents are in the Serbian

    18 and English languages.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D69 and

    20 D69A.

    21 MR. FILA:

    22 Q. Please take a look at this, the part in the

    23 Serbian language, and explain what it is?

    24 A. This is an order which proves that I went on

    25 business that day to Vukovar. I don't know what the

  11. 1 situation is in the West, but when you travel on

    2 business in our country, when you get this kind of

    3 order, it shows that it's a business trip, not a

    4 personal -- private trip. It was the date, the 20th of

    5 November, 1991, we left in the morning, sometime in the

    6 morning.

    7 Q. Why did you go to Vukovar?

    8 A. Because the delegation of the Municipal

    9 Assembly of Kladovo went to visit the reservists who

    10 were in the area of Vukovar, in its vicinity, and I was

    11 coming Mr. Nebojsa Lazarevic who was President of the

    12 Municipality on that date.

    13 Q. Did you travel together?

    14 A. No, we did not travel together. The

    15 gentleman in question had left earlier.

    16 MR. FILA: Your Honour, with your permission,

    17 I have only one copy of a big map of Yugoslavia, and

    18 I'm going to give it to you, but the northern part of

    19 that map has been photocopied. This is very big, as

    20 you can see. This is for all the parties.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: The map is marked D70.

    22 MR. FILA: Could the usher please put the

    23 small map on the ELMO, and Mr. Jevtovic, could you show

    24 the town that you're from, the town you left, which

    25 route you took, and what time did you arrive. Could

  12. 1 you take a pencil or something. Could you mark it?

    2 You will be pointing this out on the small

    3 map that will be put on the ELMO, so they will put it

    4 there, and please speak in the microphone so everyone

    5 can hear you. I know it's a bit difficult but ...

    6 Could you please show the place that you

    7 left, Kladovo, and how you arrived and which way you

    8 went, et cetera?

    9 A. I left Kladovo and I took the road along the

    10 Danube.

    11 Q. Could you please show us the way you went?

    12 A. Kladovo -- just a minute, please. By

    13 Golubac, Gradista, Pozarevac.

    14 Q. And then?

    15 A. And then we got out the highway to Belgrade.

    16 In Belgrade, in front of the Slavija Hotel, I picked up

    17 Mr. Tomasevic from Prijepolje and we continued to Backa

    18 Palanka.

    19 Q. Did you take the same car?

    20 A. Yes, the gentleman and I went together. Let

    21 me just find this. Backa Palanka, Novi Sad and Backa

    22 Palanka.

    23 Q. And then?

    24 A. I didn't drive further than that. My car

    25 stayed there.

  13. 1 Q. Okay.

    2 A. I mean, I can't really show you the rest of

    3 the way because it was the first time I went there.

    4 Q. So you arrived in Backa Palanka?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. When did you arrive, approximately, in Backa

    7 Palanka?

    8 A. Around eight o'clock.

    9 Q. Around eight o'clock. The Defence would like

    10 this big map to be admitted into evidence as D70?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, Your Honour.

    12 MR. FILA:

    13 Q. Did you have a video camera on you, some kind

    14 of video camera?

    15 A. I had a small radio cassette player and a

    16 video camera, yes. Just like any journalist. I always

    17 have this, I always use this kind of material.

    18 Q. So you made a videotape, you filmed a

    19 videotape, and you brought it back home?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And you gave it to Mr. Lazarevic?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 MR. FILA: Could we please play this tape,

    24 D2, in its entirety, and with the permission of the

    25 Court, I would like Mr. Jevtovic to comment on the tape

  14. 1 because he is the author of the tape, so if he could

    2 say where this is and when, et cetera.

    3 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, you are going to say what is

    4 the town in question, what are the people you

    5 recognise, the faces, when you start viewing the tape?

    6 A. I think that this is the first moment when we

    7 arrived in Backa Palanka. This is about 8.37. This is

    8 in front of the -- this is Boris Vaksic, a journalist,

    9 Mr. Mikoracic (phoen), the Director of the elementary

    10 school in Kladovo. All of them are witnesses. Rado

    11 Matic who is a driver, and this is also a journalist

    12 from Prijepolje.

    13 This is a town that I first came to, so I am

    14 simply filming the panorama of the town itself, I am

    15 showing the municipal assembly building and other

    16 things.

    17 Q. And these dates, I mean, are they filmed --

    18 A. Yes, they are filmed automatically as soon as

    19 it is being filmed. The camera does this

    20 automatically, the 20th of November. We are indoors

    21 now, and these are things that belong to Croat

    22 soldiers, I think, and this was my first encounter with

    23 the war so I found all of this interesting.

    24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear

    25 Mr. Fila.

  15. 1 A. I'm not sure what this is. It's the first

    2 time I saw this and I found it interesting. I think

    3 they were sending this to their mothers, these

    4 soldiers, I don't know, they were killed perhaps.

    5 Mr. Ljuba Novakovic, the President of the

    6 Municipal Assembly of Backa Palanka. I interviewed him

    7 that morning. Djitica Milivojevic, and I don't know

    8 the other gentleman. Visa Maletic, the Prosecutor

    9 [sic], our driver, Mr. Nebojsa Lazarevic, President of

    10 the Municipal Assembly. Mr. Valsimic (phoen), he was

    11 an MP in the Republic of Serbia from Kladovo; I already

    12 mentioned these gentlemen before; and the driver, Dusan

    13 Iculovic. I don't know who this gentleman is. This is

    14 an office that we are sitting in. We are waiting for

    15 everyone to arrive so we could then move into the war

    16 zone.

    17 The gentleman was telling us about the

    18 consequences of the war. He said it was terrible that

    19 there were a lot of shells that had fallen, it was very

    20 interesting to me because it was the first time I ever

    21 saw the area. Mr. Dimitri Imolic (phoen), he's a new

    22 person here.

    23 Mr. Aleksic, I think he was an MP at that

    24 time in the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Jova Cvetkovic, a

    25 captain from Jagodina.

  16. 1 Q. Could I ask you, please, Mr. Technician --

    2 could you please stop the tape so that I could put a

    3 question?

    4 After ten o'clock, new people arrived. Who

    5 are these new people who came in then?

    6 A. Slavko Dokmanovic and with him, Mr. Rade

    7 Leskovac and Captain Cvetkovic.

    8 Q. Jovan?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Thank you. Please proceed.

    11 A. This is Mr. Letcovic (phoen), you can see

    12 him, these are persons I already mentioned, there is no

    13 need for me to mention them again, I think. I don't

    14 know this person either. A lot of other people were

    15 coming in. I mean, people from the government in Backa

    16 Palanka.

    17 Q. You just tell us the names of the people you

    18 know, especially those who will be witnesses.

    19 A. Mr. Ljubo Novakovic, I don't think there is

    20 any need for me to repeat that. I already mentioned

    21 him. My microphone I used for interviewing people,

    22 Mr. Dokmanovic; my colleague, Boris Vaksic,

    23 interviewing Mr. Aleksic. This is in front of the

    24 office where we were waiting. This is still Backa

    25 Palanka?

  17. 1 A. Yes, this is Backa Palanka, this is the hall

    2 in front of the president's office.

    3 This is in front of the Municipal Assembly of

    4 Backa Palanka, we are waiting before we leave, so is

    5 the delegation of the Municipality of Kladovo, the

    6 people I already mentioned, and Mr. Dokmanovic is here

    7 too.

    8 Q. (No translation)

    9 A. No, this is another man. Off we go. This is

    10 12 minutes past 12. We are crossing some kind of

    11 bridge now.

    12 Q. Could you please stop it once again? Did any

    13 people stay behind? I mean, any of the witnesses, the

    14 people that you know?

    15 A. Yes, yes, yes. We split into two groups at

    16 that point because we heard.

    17 Q. I'm sorry, could you please stop the tape

    18 because I can't comment on it and talk. Okay, it's

    19 stopped now.

    20 A. We split into two groups. We heard that you

    21 could not go through Vukovar and one group with

    22 Mr. Lazarevic, and I was in that group, and Mr. Slavko

    23 Dokmanovic, Jovan Cvetkovic, and Mr. Leskovac. We set

    24 out to see whether we could go through Vukovar, and

    25 this other group of people, the people I mentioned,

  18. 1 went to deliver humanitarian aid to the reservists so

    2 we took that too as well.

    3 Q. This other group that did not accompany you

    4 to Vukovar, who are these people? Give us their

    5 names.

    6 A. Frankly, I'm trying to remember their names.

    7 Q. But they're there, right?

    8 A. Yes, yes. Boris Vaksic, my colleague, then

    9 the team that took the truck, Djutica Milivojevic,

    10 Dusan Nitsulovic (phoen), then ...

    11 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, sorry to interrupt, but just

    12 the names of the people who were with you at the

    13 Atlantic Hotel?

    14 A. Ah, I see. The people who are here now.

    15 Dusan Nitsulovic (phoen), Djutica Milivojevic, Boris

    16 Vaksic and Visa Maletic.

    17 Q. Thank you. That will be it. Your Honour,

    18 with your permission, those are the four witnesses that

    19 are needed for two hours, only from ten to twelve in

    20 Backa Palanka, those are the two hours I am talking

    21 about, the ones that we mentioned this morning.

    22 Please continue with the tape.

    23 MR. FILA:

    24 Q. Please continue your comments.

    25 A. We are moving towards Vukovar again, it's the

  19. 1 first time I'm in the area, so I can't remember the

    2 exact names of every part of town, it was a long time

    3 ago. I know we stopped here and that I took a few

    4 pictures, I remember this through the window, and now

    5 we will continue on our vehicle to Vukovar.

    6 Q. What vehicle? This was Captain Cvetkovic's

    7 vehicle?

    8 A. It was a military vehicle. That's what we

    9 took. He drove it and Mr. Dokmanovic was in the

    10 vehicle, Mr. Lazarevic and I, and Rade Leskovac joined

    11 us, I think it was now that he joined us. This was

    12 when we arrived into VELEPROMET. I think that's the

    13 area we're in now. We parked the car here and we

    14 stopped.

    15 Q. So you can see the time on the camera, on the

    16 film. This is Vukovar?

    17 A. Yes, yes. I imagine that this is the

    18 entrance into Vukovar. I'm not familiar with the area,

    19 as I said, but it's called VELEPROMET, I think, and I

    20 was filming this because we were waiting there for a

    21 certain period of time, so I talked to these people a

    22 lot. These people who were there, Croats and Serbs,

    23 who were in captivity. And with the people you can see

    24 here on this film. I talked to them as much as

    25 possible because I wanted radio interviews.

  20. 1 This is Mr. Dokmanovic. I think that's him.

    2 Some of them knew each other. Everything happened in

    3 front of this building, in front of this building.

    4 This is a gate. It's practically a closed gate so that

    5 it's impossible to come in and out. So you can see

    6 that I could film this part, this area, it was a large

    7 area.

    8 This is the area that I'm talking about.

    9 There were a lot of women, people, children. I would

    10 go up to them, we talked freely. There were Croats and

    11 Serbs there, different people. It wasn't only one

    12 ethnic group. There were vans and trucks, some were

    13 parked in this courtyard area, some were outside in

    14 front of the courtyard. This was already around two

    15 o'clock.

    16 I remember they were eating some kind

    17 of salami, they were distributing them to all the

    18 people there. They received some food, some kind of

    19 aid, so we talked.

    20 Q. Where was Slavko Dokmanovic at that time?

    21 A. I was filming at the time, so that I was

    22 following these people that were here. They were in

    23 the building, but they entered -- all of them entered

    24 the building. It was interesting for me to film the

    25 children with their mothers. That was interesting.

  21. 1 Later, I saw an old lady, I remember I helped her to

    2 carry this enormous bag here. I felt sorry that she

    3 was carrying this enormous suitcase, so I helped her.

    4 I will stop now. I helped her to carry this bag. It

    5 was too big for her. Then I filmed these people. They

    6 were important to me to see how -- what their

    7 experience was, what a drama this was for them. I

    8 wanted to see their opinion, their thinking about what

    9 was happening in Vukovar.

    10 You see, I think these are nuns, they were

    11 eating these tins that I was talking about, they were

    12 issued by the army, and they were eating that before

    13 leaving on the buses.

    14 Q. Do you see any familiar faces? Just go

    15 ahead.

    16 A. Only the people from Kladovo are familiar to

    17 me. These people, I don't know. This gentleman is a

    18 journalist from Piro (phoen). At the time there were

    19 some journalists there, at the time I don't know

    20 exactly which ones, I don't know if they were French,

    21 English, Dutch, I'm not sure. The guy from Piro

    22 translated into English. This is their camera, you can

    23 see by the camera. Mr. Hadzic is giving an interview.

    24 He would come out and give a couple of interviews

    25 during their meeting at that building, he came out

  22. 1 several times to give interviews.

    2 Q. Did Mr. Dokmanovic come out?

    3 A. Mr. Dokmanovic, at the beginning, when we

    4 just arrived, came in and out a couple of times. After

    5 that, he went into the premises. Later, I heard they

    6 had a meeting there, but he didn't come out during that

    7 meeting.

    8 At the beginning, before he came in and out a

    9 couple of times. After that, he went inside.

    10 Mr. Hadzic came out a couple of times. This is the

    11 moment when the buses are leaving with the women. I

    12 think there were men there also -- I think there were

    13 men on the trucks. These are buses. I can't exactly

    14 say how much.

    15 Q. Is this hospital staff?

    16 A. I think these are international forces that

    17 accompanied them. I don't know which forces were in

    18 the hospital. I think these women are from the

    19 hospital. There were a lot of people, women, children,

    20 a lot of the population. They all came into the buses

    21 and the trucks. They were transported by military

    22 trucks. There was a long column. You can see the nuns

    23 here. He were they were in one of the trucks. There

    24 were a lot of the vehicles that they were evacuated

    25 in. It was offered for people who wanted to stay to

  23. 1 stay and those who wanted to leave for Croatia could

    2 go. These are children.

    3 This is the moment when they were leaving the

    4 courtyard. There were a lot. I can't say exactly how

    5 many vehicles there were, but there were a lot.

    6 This is the gate, the courtyard, where we

    7 were. They are going out.

    8 Q. Just show us the familiar faces, name and

    9 last name. You don't have to be too long.

    10 A. There were men you can see who were

    11 evacuated, also women. Mr. Mirko Dragijic, you could

    12 see him for a moment, from Kladovo, a member of our

    13 delegation, he was there with us.

    14 This is -- I think it's a journalist, I heard

    15 later, it was a colleague, I don't know.

    16 Q. What does it say on his --

    17 A. Journalist, they told us where were we, why

    18 didn't you come earlier. We're scared you only come to

    19 film us now. They didn't like journalists much. They

    20 probably liked him but not us.

    21 I don't know. These are probably soldiers.

    22 I don't know who they are.

    23 Q. Only the ones that you know.

    24 A. This is in front of this facility, so we're

    25 still in that area. This is Mr. Leskovac, I think he

  24. 1 was there for a moment.

    2 Q. And you're waiting all the time?

    3 A. Yes, we're waiting to leave now. We're

    4 leaving about 15 hours and 16 minutes we're leaving,

    5 we're told we can go into the centre of the city to see

    6 how much of it was destroyed.

    7 Q. Who was in the car with you?

    8 A. Captain Cvetkovic was driving, Mr. Dokmanovic

    9 was in the car, me, Mr. Lazarevic, of course, and

    10 Gosperdi Radolaskovic (phoen). You could hear on the

    11 camera, we're talking during the drive, we're

    12 flabbergasted by what we see. It's extremely --

    13 Q. Whose voice could you hear?

    14 A. I think I could hear Mr. Dokmanovic for a

    15 minute. You can hear Leskovac, this is Slavko

    16 Dokmanovic now, you can hear him.

    17 Q. Whenever you hear his voice, tell us.

    18 A. I hear it now. I hear it now. I can tell

    19 his voice apart.

    20 Q. So just let us know.

    21 A. You could hear him now when he says, also now

    22 Mr. Dokmanovic is speaking. He's explaining to us.

    23 I'm in Vukovar for the first time and he's explaining

    24 to us where everything was, what it used to look like,

    25 what it looks like now. Both Serb and Croat houses

  25. 1 were destroyed. There are no exceptions.

    2 Mr. Dokmanovic says the world has seen

    3 nothing like this yet. We were all flabbergasted by

    4 what we saw.

    5 Q. Please, every time you hear Mr. Dokmanovic's

    6 voice, tell us.

    7 A. This is the part that we entered. I don't

    8 know exactly what it's called. This is the first time

    9 that I saw dead people. We didn't -- we weren't able

    10 to see dead people before. We were far from the

    11 front. This is the first time that I've seen these

    12 horrible things. Several people were dead there in the

    13 centre.

    14 I think there were two or three people

    15 there. The camera was zooming, but there were two or

    16 three people dead in that area.

    17 Q. Where are you now?

    18 A. It's the same area, the centre. I don't know

    19 what it's called. The centre of the town. This is

    20 where we got out. I don't know what it's called.

    21 That's where the bus station was. I saw that.

    22 Q. But you hear the voices?

    23 A. Yes. There's no comment necessary here. You

    24 can hear Mr. Dokmanovic. He is giving an interview to

    25 my colleague from Radio Prijepolje.

  26. 1 Q. What's his name?

    2 A. Vukosav Tomasevic, he was filming for Radio

    3 Prijepolje. You can see Mr. Radkovic (phoen), and Rade

    4 Leskovac, you can see Lazarevic. This is Mr. Mirko

    5 Dragijic, you can see him in the background, probably

    6 ambulance vehicles that helped in the town.

    7 Mr. Lazarevic, he is the mayor of Kladovo, Slavko

    8 Dokmanovic is still giving an interview. You could

    9 hear his voice and you can see him on the tape.

    10 The people that he talked to probably knew

    11 exactly where we were, but you could see by the bus

    12 stop.

    13 Q. But this is in Vukovar?

    14 A. Yes, I think it's the centre of the city, but

    15 I don't know the details, exactly what it's called.

    16 You could hear shots here. There was still fights in

    17 the town. I filmed this through a window because they

    18 said that the town was mined, so I filmed a house

    19 through the window. We were not allowed to go inside.

    20 These are some fighters who are saying that there is

    21 still fighting in the town and that we couldn't proceed

    22 because it wasn't safe. You could hear detonations,

    23 shots were still being fired. There was still

    24 shooting.

    25 I tried to zoom. I don't know what this is,

  27. 1 some kind of facility, then they shot at us, so I took

    2 shelter because there was a danger. It wasn't safe.

    3 We were not guaranteed our safety. Now we're coming

    4 back from that part where we were. We're returning.

    5 Q. Returning to where?

    6 A. I don't know. Vukovar. We were leaving from

    7 Vukovar towards Sidski Banovci, I don't know the

    8 locations of the streets. I don't know.

    9 Q. Whose voice is this?

    10 A. This is Mr. Dokmanovic. He is talking about

    11 the destruction of the city. The same team is in the

    12 car as before.

    13 Q. Whenever you hear Dokmanovic's voice --

    14 A. Yes, you can hear him now. You can hear him

    15 now, this is Mr. Dokmanovic's voice.

    16 Q. Where were you going?

    17 A. We left Vukovar toward Sidski Banovci and you

    18 can see the time on the camera, and this is the time

    19 that he's talking about, 15.32, and you can follow our

    20 movements by the timing. This is when we came out of

    21 Vukovar, of that area. This is a looter and we were

    22 amazed that at moments like this, he was looting the

    23 abandoned homes. Slavko got angry there. He said this

    24 is such a shame for people.

    25 This is a park. I think there were a lot of

  28. 1 trees and that whole part was destroyed.

    2 This is just professionally, it's a sunset,

    3 and I zoomed because the sky was so interesting. This

    4 is 15.42, that's the moment when we had to -- we caught

    5 up with a column that left VELEPROMET, so this is where

    6 we had to wait. They didn't let us overtake them. I

    7 was in a hurry. I'll explain later why I was in a

    8 hurry to pass, but they wouldn't let us cut the column

    9 in half, so we parked here.

    10 Q. Stop the tape, please. This is the second

    11 tape. Yes, this is -- that's not the same tape.

    12 When you left Backa Topola, you passed in

    13 front of the municipality. Did you pass a bridge?

    14 Where?

    15 A. We crossed a bridge, I think it's called May

    16 25th, but that bridge I remembered more because there

    17 was a checkpoint there, there was a checkpoint on --

    18 before coming onto the bridge and before leaving the

    19 bridge. This was a military control so we couldn't

    20 pass. This is where we searched, if we have weapons,

    21 who are we, they looked at the truck with the aid, they

    22 wanted to see what was inside. After that, they let us

    23 go. I think it's called May 25th, but as far as

    24 geographical names, I don't know, so I don't want to

    25 make a mistake.

  29. 1 Q. You said around ten o'clock Slavko Dokmanovic

    2 came to Backa Palanka. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is he here? Do you see him?

    5 A. Yes, I saw him when I came in and I see him

    6 now.

    7 Q. Point him out?

    8 A. That's him.

    9 Q. How long have you known him?

    10 A. I think at the end of 1990, he came to

    11 Kladovo on his trips for the first time. He cooperated

    12 as the mayor of Vukovar with our mayor of Kladovo,

    13 Nebojsa Lazarevic, and he visited at the beginning of

    14 1991, there were different meetings where they talked

    15 about aid to Vukovar, probably some possible

    16 cooperation later when he wasn't no longer the mayor,

    17 he came less, but he did come to Mr. Lazarevic wedding,

    18 I think that was the end of September, in 1991. I

    19 think he was at Mr. Lazarevic's wedding for two days.

    20 Q. Could you tell us what kind of a man he was?

    21 Was he aggressive, quiet?

    22 A. Oh, no. We had the opportunity to sit at the

    23 wedding and a couple of times after these official

    24 delegations, the journalists would be invited to

    25 dinner. He was a quiet man. I can only say the best

  30. 1 about him. I was not at his level personally to spend

    2 time with him. We only had some contacts, but he was

    3 extremely peaceful and correct person. He's an

    4 ordinary man, like any other.

    5 Q. When you left Vukovar on the way back, is the

    6 same team in the car as the one that came in?

    7 A. When we left the centre to go back, yes, it

    8 was the same group of people in the Lada all the time.

    9 Q. Say who it was?

    10 A. Captain Cvetkovic was driving, Mr. Lazarevic,

    11 Mr. Dokmanovic, Mr. Leskovac and myself were in the

    12 vehicle.

    13 Q. So all this time you sat together?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. What did you record with your video camera?

    16 Were you ordered to record Slavko Dokmanovic or

    17 something else?

    18 A. No, not Mr. Dokmanovic. My goal was to

    19 follow the mayor, Mr. Lazarevic, so I recorded those

    20 activities which were interesting because I have to say

    21 the camera that I used to record is an amateur camera,

    22 it's not a professional camera, it's a small Japanese

    23 camera, JVC, it has a 30-minute tape so I couldn't tape

    24 all day. Secondly, I couldn't know what this tape

    25 would be used for. Today, I had a tape for

  31. 1 Mr. Lazarevic so that he would have a remembrance of

    2 where he was in order to kind of justify this aid,

    3 because the municipality of Kladovo wanted us to tour

    4 that area, they wanted a picture of a -- realistic

    5 picture of what was going on and what the situation was

    6 there.

    7 So my goal was not Mr. Dokmanovic, my goal

    8 was Mr. Lazarevic. And Mr. Dokmanovic, I filmed

    9 incidentally when he was close by. You could see that

    10 from the tape. If I had known this would have been

    11 important one day for Mr. Dokmanovic, I probably would

    12 have taped more, but who knows?

    13 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear the question

    14 from Mr. Fila.

    15 A. The original tape, it's a small tape, it's

    16 impossible to watch unless you have an adapter,

    17 professionals know this, so it is an amateur camera

    18 with small tapes. I had to transfer it to a

    19 videotape. I copied it in two copies. I gave them to

    20 Mr. Lazarevic, the small tape I copied later.

    21 Mr. Lazarevic has both copies. I didn't take a copy, I

    22 gave them to Mr. Lazarevic. He's my neighbour, close

    23 to me. I could take it whenever we needed it.

    24 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, the tape we saw now, is that

    25 exactly the same as November 20th when it was filmed?

  32. 1 A. Yes, absolutely. It was the original tape.

    2 There are no changes. No, there are no changes, no

    3 cuts. If a professional is viewing this tape, I am an

    4 amateur, I'm not a TV camera man. The camera goes from

    5 one object to the next very quickly. I was more

    6 interested in recording these moments. It's a part of

    7 history. I didn't do this professionally, and you

    8 could see that this is not professional work because

    9 the tape was only 30 minutes long, I had to save the

    10 tape. So much sometimes I would tape. I also made ten

    11 radio interviews with my tape recorder that day so that

    12 there are time gaps there, but I can tell you that the

    13 timing goes on automatically so it's impossible to

    14 edit, and I state with all authority that this is the

    15 original tape, unedited, and everything that was taped

    16 there is on that tape.

    17 Q. Why did you stop taping? What time did you

    18 stop taping?

    19 A. You could see at one moment on the tape that

    20 it was dusk, that it was sunset, so it was around

    21 then. So it's an amateur camera. There are no

    22 lights. You couldn't film later. I used the last

    23 moments of light to record. After that, the camera

    24 would not tape anything in the dark, so this is the

    25 only reason I didn't film any more.

  33. 1 Q. When you left Vukovar, you said you stopped

    2 somewhere?

    3 A. This is the moment.

    4 Q. You can see the buses. Is that the first

    5 inhabited place that you came across?

    6 A. Yes. It was very close to Vukovar, I don't

    7 know how close. We caught up with the column of the

    8 buses. They were lined up, the entire column was lined

    9 up. We overpassed the column, and if you allow me,

    10 Your Honours, to explain -- I had a death in my family,

    11 so I had to cross the bridge by 7 p.m. in order to get

    12 back to Backa Palanka territory in order to go to

    13 Uzice, my uncle was dead, the funeral was the next day,

    14 so I had to rush, so this is the reason we hurried, to

    15 overtake the column in order to cross the bridge before

    16 7 because the curfew went on then and we couldn't

    17 move. Then we tried to overpass the column but they

    18 wouldn't let us. When we got there, there was military

    19 police, they said. Wait, these people have priority.

    20 So we had to wait for five, six minutes, I don't know

    21 exactly. After that, I used the opportunity to come

    22 out with my camera and record the buses.

    23 Mr. Dokmanovic tried to intervene, but he didn't have

    24 any authority with the army. They didn't allow him.

    25 Both him and Rade Leskovac said that we came as guests

  34. 1 from Serbia, so they wouldn't let us overtake the

    2 column, so we had to wait. This is where we lost maybe

    3 five minutes.

    4 Q. When was the next time you were stopped?

    5 A. We travelled -- I don't know exactly what

    6 that place is called, but later I heard them say it was

    7 Orolik. Why did I remember that place? Because that

    8 was the most dangerous moment for me that day. Simply

    9 we were hurrying to leave the territory as soon as

    10 possible so I could make -- make it to the bus in order

    11 to get to the funeral and then in front of us, we came

    12 up against the -- an army, I think it was both the

    13 police and the army, they were quite drunk and

    14 aggressive. Simply that day, nobody was safe unless

    15 they were in uniform that day. The soldiers did not

    16 let us pass, and Mr. Leskovac came out to explain who

    17 we were and we were in a hurry, and Mr. Dokmanovic came

    18 out and he asked them to let us pass. A soldier,

    19 especially one soldier, was very aggressive. He wanted

    20 to fire at us. His finger was on the trigger, and if

    21 Captain Cvetkovic had not come out, he was in uniform

    22 with his ranks, and if he hadn't come out, who knows

    23 what would have happened. I have to be honest at that

    24 moment I was afraid because there was a danger that

    25 they would shoot at us, so I remember that detail, we

  35. 1 got away then, I think it was about 5 p.m., 5.15, about

    2 5.00.

    3 Q. How do you know what time it was?

    4 A. I was in a hurry, I had a death, and I was

    5 rushing to make it, so I looked at my watch a lot. I

    6 was hurrying, because if I didn't get to the bridge by

    7 seven, I wouldn't be able to cross it and I would not

    8 make it to the funeral, but this is my father's

    9 brother, and since I don't have a father, it was very

    10 important at least one of us to get to the funeral.

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Translator didn't hear the

    12 question.

    13 Q. Where was your next stop. Where was the next

    14 place you stopped?

    15 A. After that, I think we got to Sidski

    16 Banovci. This is where I left the car immediately,

    17 they gave me a military driver and a vehicle to go to

    18 Backa Palanka and later to Novi Sad because I wanted to

    19 get to the funeral that I was talking about.

    20 Q. When was the last time you saw Slavko

    21 Dokmanovic?

    22 A. So this was about six -- 5.30 and 6.00, I

    23 don't remember exactly. A lot of time has passed.

    24 Q. Where in Sidski Banovci? Do you know what he

    25 was wearing? You saw the tape.

  36. 1 A. I can say that if it hadn't been for the

    2 tape, I wouldn't have remembered a lot of the details,

    3 a lot of time passed, and based on this recording, I

    4 remembered a lot. He had a waist coat. He often used

    5 to come in a waist coat when he came to Kladovo, that's

    6 what I remembered him by. I think it was some kind of

    7 hunting, it wasn't a military waist coat, it was a

    8 hunter's waist coat.

    9 Q. You said that you left Sidski Banovci. How

    10 far did you go with the military vehicle?

    11 A. Up to Backa Palanka and then Novi Sad.

    12 Q. Could you please tell us what these documents

    13 are that we are showing you?

    14 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked

    15 D71.

    16 A. These documents are photocopies of bus

    17 tickets that I used on that day at that -- it's proof

    18 that I travelled that day, that even, on the 20th of

    19 October at 19.50 by bus to Belgrade.

    20 Q. Would you look at this now, please?

    21 That same evening, you were going to Backa

    22 Palanka and then Novi Sad, and then Novi Sad-Belgrade,

    23 and then from Belgrade to Uzice. What is this now?

    24 A. This is a copy of a bus ticket, Belgrade-

    25 Kladovo, the next day after the funeral, so after I

  37. 1 finished my personal family affairs in Uzice, when I

    2 was at the funeral, I came back by train to Belgrade,

    3 and from Belgrade I returned to Kladovo.

    4 Q. What is the date?

    5 A. The date is the 21st of October, the next

    6 day, and I would like to explain -- November, I'm

    7 sorry. I explained to Your Honour that it is usual to

    8 us, when we are talking about our per diem, I travelled

    9 to Uzice privately so I don't have the tickets from

    10 Belgrade to Uzice, but I have photocopies, the

    11 originals are official documents, so it's impossible to

    12 do anything else. The original documents are proof

    13 that I was where I said I was at that time.

    14 Q. The originals I gave to the registrar, and I

    15 would like these documents to be admitted into

    16 evidence, that the gentleman travelled to Belgrade on

    17 the 20th and from Belgrade on the 21st, these are

    18 original tickets.

    19 MR. FILA: I suggest that they be admitted

    20 into evidence as Defence exhibits D -- what number?

    21 THE REGISTRAR: D72.

    22 MR. FILA: And their version in the English

    23 language or the Serbian language.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, Your Honour.

    25 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. No further

  38. 1 questions.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Prosecutor?

    3 Cross-examined by Mr. Williamson.

    4 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, who did you travel with from

    5 Kladovo to Backa Palanka on the morning of the 20th of

    6 November?

    7 A. With Mr. Mirko Dragisic.

    8 Q. And approximately what time did you arrive in

    9 Backa Palanka?

    10 A. Approximately around eight. Possibly at

    11 eight, but around eight at any rate.

    12 Q. Do you have a translation of what I'm

    13 saying?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: We now have the French

    15 translation.


    17 Q. You have indicated the purpose of the group

    18 going from Kladovo was to visit the reservists who were

    19 there in Vukovar; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And these reservists, these were Territorial

    22 Defence soldiers who had been mobilised from Kladovo to

    23 go and fight in Croatia; correct?

    24 A. I can't really discuss military matters.

    25 These were reservists within the army of Yugoslavia, if

  39. 1 you know what I mean. I don't know what the situation

    2 is like in your country, but all of us, up to the age

    3 of 60, are potential conscripts, you know, when the

    4 army gives us call-up papers, we have to respond and we

    5 have to go there, so there was a group from Kladovo

    6 there who acted within the Yugoslav army, so they were

    7 reservists within the army.

    8 Q. But they had been mobilised to go and fight

    9 in Croatia; is that correct?

    10 A. No. They were fighting in Yugoslavia.

    11 Q. Is Vukovar in Croatia?

    12 A. At the point when the war was breaking out,

    13 Vukovar was a Yugoslav town, and the Yugoslav army was

    14 defending one of the Yugoslav towns, Vukovar, because

    15 in 1991, Yugoslav was still there, in those borders.

    16 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, in the Socialist Federalist

    17 Republic of Yugoslavia, there were six republics, were

    18 there not?

    19 A. And two provinces.

    20 Q. And one of those six republics was the

    21 Republic of Croatia, was it not?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And is Vukovar on the territory of the

    24 Republic of Croatia, be it in the SFRY or not?

    25 A. If I would be going into somebody else's

  40. 1 territory, I would have been asked to show a passport.

    2 Nobody ever asked me for a passport. I even went to

    3 school in Zagreb, and I never needed a passport to

    4 travel there.

    5 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, the question is very simple:

    6 Is Vukovar in the Republic of Croatia, "Yes" or "No,"

    7 and then you can explain if you need to.

    8 A. Vukovar is a town within the Republic of

    9 Croatia but within the State of Yugoslavia. The State

    10 was called Yugoslavia then and the republics were

    11 constituent elements of that state.

    12 Q. Thank you. Now, after you went to Backa

    13 Palanka, what route did you take from there to Vukovar?

    14 A. I told the gentleman who was questioning me

    15 in Belgrade too that I can't really recall all of the

    16 details related to that trip. It was the first time I

    17 took that route. I remember we crossed a bridge or

    18 something. But I can say that I cannot remember the

    19 actual topography, the toponyms, because I had never

    20 been there before.

    21 Q. Who exactly was in the vehicle with you,

    22 going from Backa Palanka to Vukovar?

    23 A. Mr. Lazarevic, of course, then Mr. Slavko

    24 Dokmanovic, and Captain Jovan Cvetkovic.

    25 Q. Who was driving the vehicle?

  41. 1 A. Captain Jovan Cvetkovic, it was his vehicle,

    2 it was a military vehicle.

    3 Q. What was his assignment within the military,

    4 this Captain Cvetkovic?

    5 A. I'm not qualified to answer that question.

    6 I'm not a military man myself.

    7 Q. Where was he based at that time?

    8 A. I first met the gentleman in Backa Palanka at

    9 that meeting, so I really wouldn't know.

    10 Q. And to your knowledge was he active duty

    11 military or was he a reservist who had been mobilised?

    12 A. No, I think he was a reservist. Before that,

    13 he was President of the Municipal Assembly of Jagodina,

    14 so there was no chance that he was an active military

    15 officer. He must have been a reservist.

    16 Q. And he had the rank of Captain; is that

    17 correct?

    18 A. You're right.

    19 Q. At the time was he still the President of the

    20 Municipality of Jagodina?

    21 A. I really don't know.

    22 Q. How long did it take you approximately to get

    23 from Backa Palanka to Vukovar?

    24 A. One travelled very slowly. There were

    25 military checkpoints every few kilometres. We were

  42. 1 stopped by the military police, they would search our

    2 car. I think about an hour and a half.

    3 Q. Were there any other vehicles travelling

    4 along with your group?

    5 A. With our group, when we left, Mr. Leskovac

    6 took his vehicle, but I think it broke down a bit after

    7 we crossed the bridge, so then he went into our car and

    8 then there was the car of the municipality of Kladovo,

    9 Mr. Dragijic was there, and the driver, Ivezic.

    10 Q. So Mr. Leskovac got into your car between

    11 Backa Palanka and Vukovar; is that correct? Can you

    12 answer out loud, please?

    13 A. Yes, yes. I don't know exactly at which

    14 place this happened. We crossed the bridge. He had

    15 his own private car and I think his -- he had a flat

    16 tyre or something and then he went into our vehicle.

    17 Q. What did he do with his vehicle?

    18 A. I think he left it there. I don't know.

    19 Q. Now, you've indicated that this was your

    20 first time in the Vukovar area, was it not?

    21 A. In that war zone, yes. I told you that I

    22 used to take my postgraduate courses in Zagreb, so I

    23 never really visited. Sometimes I travelled near that

    24 area, but these are small villages and towns,

    25 et cetera.

  43. 1 Q. And then you returned there again about a

    2 week later, on the 28th of November, when you made an

    3 additional film; is that correct?

    4 A. Yes, yes. After that, a delegation of our

    5 workers employed abroad, that wanted to help rebuild

    6 the city, came back and that's when I went again.

    7 Q. And have you been to Vukovar again since that

    8 time?

    9 A. I don't remember. I don't think I went

    10 again.

    11 Q. But based on your visit on the 20th and then

    12 again on the 28th, you were able to become somewhat

    13 familiar with the town. I know you don't know it in

    14 detail, but you have an idea about where some of these

    15 locations are; is that a fair assessment?

    16 A. No. I only became familiar with the area

    17 that I actually visited then, not the other parts. It

    18 was very difficult to move around at that point. It

    19 was under strict military control, so you couldn't

    20 really travel elsewhere. You couldn't really move

    21 where you wanted to. Even journalists had restricted

    22 movement, so we couldn't really move around. To tell

    23 you the truth, once you've seen two or three of these

    24 streets, you've seen it all. I didn't really want to

    25 get very familiar with the details of the town of

  44. 1 Vukovar.

    2 Q. Do you recall what time you arrived at


    4 A. I think around two o'clock. If -- I must

    5 tell you one thing, quite frankly. If it weren't for

    6 the camera, I couldn't recall any of these details,

    7 after seven or eight years, or whatever. If I were to

    8 ask you what you were doing at this time seven years

    9 ago, you certainly couldn't remember, and if it weren't

    10 for the camera recording, I really couldn't remember.

    11 So I saw this on the film. I realise where I was. I

    12 also recall some of these other details. Otherwise, I

    13 really couldn't have remembered many of these details.

    14 Q. Have you ever been into a city that had been

    15 involved in a war before at this date?

    16 A. No, never.

    17 Q. I assume that the impressions that it made on

    18 you were somewhat memorable?

    19 A. Very grave, I should say.

    20 Q. Now, when you arrived at VELEPROMET, who was

    21 with you at that time? Was it the same people that had

    22 left Backa Palanka with the addition of Mr. Leskovac?

    23 A. Yes, yes.

    24 Q. And what happened after you arrived at

    25 VELEPROMET? What occurred then?

  45. 1 A. We found a lot of people there. You could

    2 see it on the film, that there were a lot of people

    3 there. I took the camera so that I could record a bit

    4 of it because at the same time I was using my cassette

    5 recorder to record some interviews that I was making.

    6 I already told you I interviewed Serbs and Croats to

    7 see how they felt about the future and what the

    8 consequences would be and I talked to some of these

    9 elderly people. Simply, I was doing this along

    10 parallel lines. I was working for radio and also I was

    11 filming this. There were a lot of people there. There

    12 were a lot of people I didn't know there. I knew some

    13 of them from television, but I mostly knew the people

    14 who came in the same car with me.

    15 Q. Did you recognise Arkan on the videotape and

    16 on the 20th of November?

    17 A. Yes, yes.

    18 Q. Did you interview him?

    19 A. No, no. I knew the gentleman from

    20 television, from the newspapers, but I didn't know him

    21 personally. I didn't interview him. I only took his

    22 picture because some of these people wanted to have

    23 their pictures taken with him, and you can see that at

    24 one point in time when viewing the film.

    25 Q. Did you stay in the yard at VELEPROMET the

  46. 1 entire time or did you go inside any of the buildings?

    2 A. No, I didn't go into the building, not at a

    3 single point in time. I was in front of the building

    4 in the yard all the time.

    5 Q. And approximately how long were you there

    6 altogether?

    7 A. If I were viewing the tape now, I could tell

    8 you exactly, but I think it was approximately an hour

    9 and a half.

    10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, I don't know

    11 what your plans are for the schedule. Is this the time

    12 that you would prefer to take the break, or if so, I

    13 could continue.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, yes. So we take

    15 20-minute break.

    16 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

    17 --- Resumed at 11.25 a.m.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Williamson?

    19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

    20 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, you have indicated that while

    21 you were at VELEPROMET, that some of the people were

    22 going in and out of the building. Were you aware of

    23 what type of meeting was taking place there?

    24 A. No, no. Much later, I heard that there was a

    25 meeting there of the government of SAO Krajina. That's

  47. 1 what it was called. I knew a lot of people whom I had

    2 known the media only before that, but I didn't know

    3 anything about the meeting. I remember that there was

    4 a small prefabricated building there, they were going

    5 in and out of it, but I don't know what was happening

    6 there.

    7 Q. Now, when you say that it was much later that

    8 you learned that this had been a meeting of the Serbian

    9 Autonomous District Government, was this later that day

    10 or was it sometime after that day that you learned of

    11 this?

    12 A. A few days later.

    13 Q. After the meeting concluded, was there any

    14 discussion as to what had taken place during the

    15 meeting by anyone who was there?

    16 A. No, no. The people I was with had no contact

    17 with these other people. We were waiting for

    18 Mr. Dokmanovic, and we practically had no contact with

    19 anyone else. We were talking about the consequences of

    20 the war and what had happened, but what was going on in

    21 that small building, we had no idea.

    22 Q. But Mr. Dokmanovic was a participant in this

    23 meeting, was he not?

    24 A. He was indoors; I imagine that he took part

    25 in the meeting. I don't know who were the participants

  48. 1 in the meeting, I don't know. But Mr. Dokmanovic was

    2 in the building all the time.

    3 Q. And when he got back into the car, he didn't

    4 say anything to you about what had gone on in the

    5 meeting; is that correct?

    6 A. No reason for him to tell me anything about

    7 it.

    8 Q. Now, at some point, your group left

    9 VELEPROMET. What brought this about? What was the

    10 purpose for leaving?

    11 A. Our purpose, as we came there, was to see the

    12 town, to see the effects, to see how much had been

    13 destroyed, and since we were told that that part of the

    14 zone was safe now, we were told that we could have a

    15 look there. That was the only reason. We were

    16 supposed to see the town.

    17 Q. And with whom exactly did you leave


    19 A. The same as when we came there. I mean, as

    20 far as the vehicles are concerned. Mr. Lazarevic,

    21 Mr. Dokmanovic, Jovan Cvetkovic was driving,

    22 Mr. Leskovac and I, in one vehicle, that is. And in

    23 the other vehicle, Mr. Dragisic, Colleague Tomasevic,

    24 and the driver, Ivezic. You can see it all on the

    25 film.

  49. 1 Q. When you left VELEPROMET, did you proceed

    2 directly to the centre of town?

    3 A. Yes, yes. We drove slowly, but we went

    4 straight. We didn't stop anywhere. We had to move

    5 very slowly. You saw that there were a lot of ruins

    6 there and it was mentioned there were even mines there,

    7 so we had to drive very carefully.

    8 Q. And you filmed this interview which took

    9 place of Mr. Dokmanovic in the centre; is that correct?

    10 A. I filmed him, but Mr. Tomasevic interviewed

    11 him; my colleague, Mr. Tomasevic. I only filmed him,

    12 you know, with the camera, so it was only certain

    13 pictures that were taken in this way, but I only

    14 pictured them talking to one another during the

    15 interview.

    16 Q. Did you film the entire interview or not; do

    17 you recall?

    18 A. Certainly not. The interview went on for

    19 about ten minutes or so. I'm not too sure. I only had

    20 a few frames because I didn't have enough tape. I

    21 wanted to be as economical as possible with the tape.

    22 I told you it was a short tape, only 30 minutes, so I

    23 wanted to capture as many details as possible. They

    24 talked probably about ten minutes or so because, you

    25 know, a radio interview takes about ten minutes because

  50. 1 people have to have something to say, so the camera is

    2 much shorter.

    3 Q. Do you know why he chose to interview

    4 Mr. Dokmanovic as opposed to someone else?

    5 A. You should ask Mr. Tomasevic that. But we

    6 were interviewing all the people that we could find

    7 there who had lived in Vukovar for years who are a part

    8 of Vukovar. Mr. Dokmanovic was a man who was in

    9 Vukovar for a long time, a man who was born in that

    10 town, and how he felt when he saw everything that had

    11 happened.

    12 Q. What was Mr. Dokmanovic's reaction to what he

    13 saw that day?

    14 A. He was very sad and surprised. He didn't

    15 believe that that kind of thing was possible either. I

    16 think that it was his first time that he got into town

    17 then. I think he hadn't been in there before that, but

    18 he was horrified because he didn't realise that the

    19 city had been destroyed to such an extent and he was

    20 very sad about it.

    21 Q. And would it be fair to say that these are

    22 the reactions of everyone that was in your group?

    23 A. Yes, yes. We were all sad about it and

    24 surprised too, and we were also sorry that the town had

    25 been destroyed to such an extent.

  51. 1 Q. And there was some anger also, was there not?

    2 A. No, absolutely not. Not in our case, no.

    3 Q. Well, as you listened to the tape, there's

    4 some people cursing the Ustashe mothers of these people

    5 for what they have done. Do you recall conversations

    6 to that effect?

    7 A. There were a lot of people there, a lot of

    8 the military too. Probably there was a lot of

    9 disappointment on both sides, you know, because in a

    10 war, it was not only one side that was shooting but

    11 both sides were shooting and probably on both sides

    12 there were people who were shooting, who were

    13 destroying, and on the other hand, on both sides there

    14 were people who didn't want any shooting and

    15 destruction to go on either. So it wouldn't be fair to

    16 say that one side was horrified and the other side

    17 wasn't. I think that any honest man would have been

    18 horrified by what they had seen that day. Mr. Leskovac

    19 I think was cursing Ustashe mothers that day as we were

    20 watching all this. But I think this is the kind of

    21 revolt (sic) that you would also be expressing if you

    22 saw that kind of thing happen to your town, the town

    23 that you're from.

    24 So it's not some kind of hatred, you know, or

    25 hatred towards a particular nation or something, it is

  52. 1 hatred towards destruction and towards those who did it

    2 because any one of us would feel sorry about that kind

    3 of thing.

    4 Q. But obviously the people who were cursing

    5 Ustashe mothers felt that the Croats were responsible

    6 for this destruction; correct?

    7 A. You know what? When two men are fighting,

    8 then probably they are accusing each other of having

    9 hit each other. So one side was accusing the other

    10 side and this other side was accusing the first side,

    11 and that's the way these things usually go.

    12 Q. Now, when you left the centre of town, who

    13 was with you in the car?

    14 A. You mean when we were leaving Vukovar, the

    15 centre of Vukovar?

    16 Q. That's correct, after this interview with

    17 Mr. Dokmanovic.

    18 A. Yes, yes. It was the same, Captain Cvetkovic

    19 was driving, then Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Dokmanovic, and

    20 Mr. Leskovac.

    21 Q. After you left the centre, where did you go

    22 exactly from that point on?

    23 A. This road led out of Vukovar, so we were

    24 moving towards the place that we were supposed to

    25 reach, that is Sidski Banovci. And I'm not familiar

  53. 1 with the names of all these places en route. But I

    2 know that we stopped after the first few kilometres,

    3 what I already mentioned when we met that group that

    4 had left town, the buses.

    5 Q. After leaving the centre of town, did you

    6 stop anywhere else in Vukovar?

    7 A. No, no, no. It was too dangerous to leave a

    8 vehicle. I mean, there was still shooting. I think

    9 that the city wasn't really safe even at that point,

    10 and we were in a hurry because I wanted to get back as

    11 soon as possible so that I could get to the funeral

    12 that I mentioned to you already.

    13 MR. WILLIAMSON: At this point, I would like

    14 for the witness to be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit P4, if

    15 he could, please, which is the map of the Vukovar

    16 region, and this can perhaps be displayed on the ELMO.

    17 And if the technicians can also bring the

    18 tape up to the point where it shows the group leaving

    19 the centre of Vukovar? And we can start from that

    20 point. Just a moment.

    21 We need to move the map, I believe, a little

    22 bit. It's highlighting the part around Vinkovci. It

    23 needs to go more towards Vukovar. It still needs to

    24 come down some.

    25 A. I didn't understand what I was supposed to

  54. 1 do. What am I supposed to do?

    2 Q. Nothing at this point. I just want you to

    3 look at this map and I want to ask you a few

    4 questions.

    5 If you can, in looking at the map, does it

    6 refresh your memory a little bit in terms of the route

    7 in which you took?

    8 A. No, no, not really, no. I'm really not

    9 familiar with this. I'm not professionally familiar

    10 with maps, so perhaps it's easier for other people who

    11 are professionally involved. I know that this is

    12 Vukovar, but I'm not really familiar with all these

    13 other places. I really don't know.

    14 Q. Very well. You cannot read a map?

    15 A. No, and I wasn't even driving at that point,

    16 so I have no idea.

    17 Q. Now, you have indicated then -- well, we can

    18 take away this exhibit if the witness cannot read it.

    19 You indicated that you left the centre of

    20 town and that you headed directly out from Vukovar

    21 without making any further stops in the town of

    22 Vukovar; is that correct?

    23 If we can start the film now from the point

    24 where you're leaving the centre of the city?

    25 (Videotape played)

  55. 1 I'm sorry, if we can go back some? To the point

    2 where you're leaving the centre of the city.

    3 (Videotape played)

    4 MR. WILLIAMSON: If we can stop it for a

    5 moment, please?

    6 Q. Now, this, that is being depicted here, is

    7 the road that goes up the hill from the centre of town;

    8 is that correct? In the direction back towards


    10 A. Please, do not ask me about the streets

    11 there. This was my first time. I'm not familiar with

    12 the area at all. I didn't know it back from the time

    13 of peace. I don't want to say anything I don't really

    14 know. I just want to tell you the truth about what I

    15 do know.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. If you would

    17 continue rolling the tape, please?

    18 (Videotape played)

    19 A. I can't see the film. I can't see anything

    20 here.

    21 (Videotape played)

    22 Q. Do you recall the location of this church in

    23 Vukovar?

    24 A. No. I remember the church but not its

    25 location.

  56. 1 Q. This is leaving Vukovar; is that correct?

    2 A. Yes, yes. I think that we were leaving the

    3 city in this direction.

    4 Q. And this is -- if you can stop it there and

    5 go back to the ...

    6 You indicated that this was, as you're

    7 leaving the town, this is on the road toward Orolik?

    8 A. No, no, that's not what I said. I said that

    9 we left town and that we first stopped at a point a few

    10 kilometres out of town. That's what I said.

    11 Q. I understand that. Perhaps my question was

    12 not translated correctly. I'm asking: Was this the

    13 road that leads to Orolik? I'm not saying that Orolik

    14 was your next stop. I'm just asking if this is the

    15 road that goes from Vukovar to Orolik.

    16 A. I imagine that that is the road leading to

    17 Sidski Banovci.

    18 Q. But you indicated that you stopped in Orolik

    19 on the way; is that correct?

    20 A. That was the second point at which we stopped

    21 because we stopped twice on that road.

    22 Q. I understand that. But, yes, is it correct

    23 that you stopped in Orolik?

    24 A. Yes. We stopped in front of a ramp. I don't

    25 know what it was, but that's where we stopped.

  57. 1 Q. As you leave Vukovar at this point and you

    2 were headed south in the direction of Orolik and Sidski

    3 Banovci, where was the next point that you stopped?

    4 A. Please, let us be precise. Don't tell me

    5 south or north because I'm not an expert in geography

    6 and I don't know in what direction we were moving. We

    7 were moving toward Sidski Banovci. I don't know

    8 whether it's north or south or west or whatever. I

    9 mean, I want to tell you exactly what happened. I just

    10 know we were going there. So I remember that we

    11 stopped at Orolik because they were pointing guns at us

    12 and all that, but please don't ask me about this

    13 geography because I don't want to lie to you. I don't

    14 know. I simply don't know.

    15 Q. I'm trying to be as precise as I can,

    16 Mr. Jevtovic, and trying to get this as detailed as

    17 possible.

    18 As you are leaving Vukovar in the direction

    19 of Orolik and Sidski Banovci, where was the next point

    20 you stopped after this footage that we see here at

    21 15.36 which you have testified is the southern end of

    22 Vukovar?

    23 A. Please, I didn't say that. Let us be quite

    24 accurate. I said that there was a place two or three

    25 kilometres away from Vukovar. I said that I couldn't

  58. 1 speak of the south or west because I'm not familiar

    2 with that. I didn't say that at any point.

    3 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. I'm

    4 trying to be fair to a maximum, as long as we're not

    5 talking about north, south, east, and west. They're

    6 putting words in his mouth. This is not

    7 cross-examination; this is putting words into his

    8 mouth, something he never said. Can he read that?

    9 Where did he say at the southern end of town? If that

    10 is what Mr. Williamson is saying, can he read this out

    11 to us, tell us where he read this from?

    12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, if Mr. Fila

    13 would read the question and the witness would read the

    14 question, I made no mention of direction in this

    15 question. I said, and I will repeat it: "I'm trying

    16 to be as precise as I can, Mr. Jevtovic, and trying to

    17 get this as detailed as possible. As you were leaving

    18 Vukovar, in the direction of Orolik and Sidski Banovci,

    19 where did you stop next?" I think that's fair.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: But please do refrain from

    21 mentioning north or south because the witness made it

    22 clear that he has no sense of the directions. Simply

    23 mention their names --

    24 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's why I did omit it in

    25 this question and then the reply was, "You're asking me

  59. 1 directions again." I specifically omitted it, and then

    2 his response was that I was asking that. In the prior

    3 question, I had indicated that.

    4 I will ask this again.

    5 Q. Mr. Jevtovic, after you left Vukovar at

    6 15.36, the portion which is depicted on the videotape

    7 which you have testified as the end of Vukovar and you

    8 were headed in the direction of Orolik and

    9 Sidski Banovci, where did you stop next?

    10 A. Maybe the interpretation is not correct. I

    11 wasn't speaking about the route, I was talking about

    12 the going out. I said then that I don't know

    13 the toponyms, I don't know the names of the places

    14 because I wasn't in that area, whether the exit is in

    15 the north or the south, and I thank Your Honour for

    16 intervening. I do not wish to be brought into any

    17 confusion here. I wanted to say what happened so that

    18 we can let all the facts be known.

    19 We went out of the town two or three

    20 kilometres outside of the towns -- we stopped. There

    21 was a column of buses which we wanted to overtake. We

    22 were stopped by the police. They didn't let us

    23 overtake them until they passed. I don't know the name

    24 of that place. I know it's two or three kilometres

    25 away. We were going towards Sidski Banovci, the

  60. 1 direction that we were moving, so that I could return

    2 and cross the bridge before seven o'clock. I think I

    3 was quite clear.

    4 Q. And you do not know the name of this place

    5 where you stopped; correct?

    6 A. On that day, I heard a lot of names, a lot of

    7 places, Tovarnik, Ernestinovo, Negoslavci.

    8 You know, this went through my ears. Would you know,

    9 if I brought you to my region for the first time and I

    10 gave you the names of 50 villages, would you remember

    11 them?

    12 Q. Would it be correct to say that it was the

    13 next inhabited village after you left Vukovar where you

    14 stopped, which I believe you testified in your

    15 examination-in-chief?

    16 A. I assume that it was.

    17 Q. Were you aware that on this road between --

    18 leaving Vukovar and this next village that there is a

    19 turnoff to Ovcara?

    20 A. No. We didn't turn anywhere, we went

    21 straight, went towards Sidski Banovci.

    22 Q. So it is your testimony that from the point

    23 you left the centre of town, that you continued

    24 travelling in the same direction without any

    25 alterations, any stops, or any turns until you reached

  61. 1 this next village after Vukovar?

    2 A. Sir, I'm the father of two children and I

    3 have a Ph.D. in Political Sciences. When I decided to

    4 come here, I decided to speak only the truth, and I

    5 would like you to conduct yourself towards me

    6 accordingly.

    7 We were going towards Sidski Banovci, we

    8 didn't turn anywhere, and I described the road we were

    9 going in detail. And for what I'm saying, I guaranteed

    10 that that's what it was -- that's how it was and that

    11 is correct.

    12 Q. So I take it from what you are saying that my

    13 question was correct, that there were no turns, no

    14 stops, no alterations, and that you continued in the

    15 same direction from the time you left the centre of

    16 town until you stopped where we see these buses at

    17 15.42 on the videotape. "Yes" or "No"; is that

    18 correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And who was with you in the vehicle during

    21 this time?

    22 A. All the time, it was the same group. You

    23 already asked me. It's the same. I don't need to

    24 repeat that. If you want me to repeat that again:

    25 Mr. Cvetkovic, Mr. Dokmanovic, Mr. Leskovac, myself,

  62. 1 and Mr. Lazarevic.

    2 Q. And you didn't get out of the vehicle at any

    3 time until you made this stop where you filmed the

    4 buses?

    5 A. No, no. When we got to the buses, that's --

    6 Mr. Leskovac came out to try to intervene for them to

    7 let us go before the buses because I was in a hurry. I

    8 came out to film a few shots, but they didn't let us

    9 pass, so that we all came back -- military police was

    10 there and told us to get back into the vehicle, and

    11 when the buses passed them, we could go.

    12 Q. What type of camera did you use to make this

    13 video?

    14 A. It's a small camera, Japanese manufacturer,

    15 JVC. I think the gentleman who questioned me had the

    16 opportunity to see it. I brought it for him to see

    17 it. It's a camera that we usually use to film family

    18 birthdays, kids. It's a small camera of 500 to 600

    19 marks. It's a small amateur camera. You had the

    20 opportunity to see it, and I could bring it back, if

    21 necessary.

    22 Q. Was this your camera?

    23 A. Yes, the camera that I got from friends as a

    24 present.

    25 Q. And had you used this camera prior to 29th of

  63. 1 November, 1991?

    2 A. Yes. I filmed often birthdays of my kids, a

    3 couple of times during Mr. Lazarevic's visits when

    4 various delegations visited, concerts attended by

    5 Mr. Lazarevic. I used it exclusively for our private

    6 use because Mr. Lazarevic and myself were good personal

    7 friends.

    8 Q. And I believe you've testified that this type

    9 of camera, the small camera, required a small cassette,

    10 a mini cassette, not the regular full-size cassettes

    11 that you would play in a VCR player?

    12 A. Yes, you're right.

    13 Q. And did you just have one mini cassette with

    14 you on that day?

    15 A. Only one.

    16 Q. And the maximum time that you could record on

    17 this cassette was 30 minutes; correct?

    18 A. Yes, 30 minutes.

    19 Q. At what point during the day did you set the

    20 date and time display?

    21 A. The time is automatic. I didn't set it.

    22 When I turn the camera on, the time comes on. So if I

    23 taped you now, it would be this time now that we are

    24 talking.

    25 Q. And there are numerous interruptions in the

  64. 1 filming. When you interrupted filming, did you use the

    2 "Pause" button or the "Stop" button?

    3 A. I turned the camera off. The breaks were out

    4 of the reasons I already explained. I worked with my

    5 radio tape recorder. So while I was talking -- having

    6 these conversations, the camera was turned off because

    7 I only had one battery. I had to turn it off. I

    8 wouldn't have -- the battery wouldn't have lasted if I

    9 was to record all day.

    10 Q. When you turned it back on, was it necessary

    11 to reset date and time, or was that automatic?

    12 A. Automatic. I already replied it's all

    13 automatic. The second that the camera is turned on, it

    14 shows the time and the place -- the time and the date,

    15 and it's always like that, even when I filmed the

    16 birthdays of my children. It's always like that. I

    17 have to tell you, it would be ridiculous to think that

    18 I then turned on the time and that this recording would

    19 be necessary after seven years. This is only just a

    20 matter of circumstance that it was kept.

    21 Q. At any point during the day did you rewind

    22 the tape to view something that you had filmed earlier

    23 or did you just let it run continuously?

    24 A. No. Everything was recorded from once.

    25 There was no reason to rewind. I have already said

  65. 1 it's not a professional film. Why would I rewind?

    2 Everything that was recorded was on that film. You see

    3 for yourselves that there are bad shots when the

    4 picture is shaky, the trees, the buildings were shaky,

    5 but I didn't take any of that out.

    6 I repeat, this is an authentic recording, and

    7 no interventions were done after it was recorded.

    8 Q. And everything that you filmed is depicted on

    9 the tape that we've viewed in court today in the same

    10 exact order that you filmed it; is that correct?

    11 A. I've already responded.

    12 Q. Well, I'm asking you: Is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, when did you make a copy of this tape

    15 which has been introduced as Defence Exhibit 2? The

    16 video that we've seen today, when did you make that

    17 copy?

    18 A. When I returned from Uzice, from the funeral,

    19 on the 22nd, I played my recordings on the radio, and

    20 then a day or so after that, I transferred the material

    21 to the big videotape and I gave it to Mr. Lazarevic. I

    22 didn't need it for myself.

    23 Q. And the copy that we have viewed today in

    24 court, do you know if this is the same exact copy that

    25 you made at that time and gave to Mr. Lazarevic?

  66. 1 A. Yes, yes, absolutely the same.

    2 Q. And did you use the same mini cassette to

    3 record the footage which was taken on the 28th of

    4 November when you returned to Vukovar?

    5 A. You think -- you mean that same tape?

    6 Q. The same mini cassette, yes, the small

    7 cassette.

    8 A. It's the same small camera. With the small

    9 camera, you use a small tape. If you think that same

    10 exact cassette, I'm not sure. I had a couple of them.

    11 It wasn't the only one that I had. I've already said

    12 that you can only film on that camera using that small

    13 tape.

    14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. And if we could just

    15 view a little bit more of the videotape going back to

    16 this part at 15.36 again, just briefly?

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 Q. This is as you're leaving Vukovar, and you

    19 indicated at this point that there is a sunset; is that

    20 correct?

    21 A. You can see that on the recording.

    22 MR. WILLIAMSON: Very well. And then this

    23 part, the next part at 15.42, if that can play,

    24 please?

    25 Q. It's your testimony that this is in the next

  67. 1 village where you had to stop for the buses; correct?

    2 A. This is the recording with the buses. This

    3 is where I said we stopped for the first time and that

    4 the military police wouldn't let us pass.

    5 Q. And what was the reason that you didn't film

    6 anything after that point?

    7 A. I've already said the camera is an amateur

    8 camera. I don't have lights, and you can see by

    9 yourself by the sun that it's the end of the day.

    10 There's no light. So that a couple of moments more I

    11 could record, and then after that, nothing more would

    12 be useable. If it was a professional camera with

    13 lights, I could record, but it was already getting dark

    14 so you couldn't really record any more. That's the

    15 only reason.

    16 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions,

    17 Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    19 MR. FILA: Only one thing that we need to

    20 clear up in order to have no difference. The witness

    21 Tomasevic, when the witness Jevtovic meets Tomasevic,

    22 he responded to my question but a little differently.

    23 Re-examined by Mr. Fila

    24 Q. Where did you meet Witness Tomasevic?

    25 A. In Belgrade.

  68. 1 Q. So he came into the car with you. Who else

    2 was in the car?

    3 A. Mr. Dragisic.

    4 Q. So the three of you are going to Backa

    5 Palanka.

    6 A. Up until Backa Palanka in that car.

    7 Q. The three of you.

    8 MR. FILA: Thank you.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Jevtovic, I have a few

    10 questions. You may be of great assistance to the court

    11 if you answer my questions.

    12 First of all, you mentioned that there was in

    13 Backa Palanka around 8.30 in the morning on the 20th of

    14 November, there was a meeting, and we saw a few people

    15 sitting around a table.

    16 I wonder if you could tell us whether you

    17 were there -- taking your film, whether you can tell us

    18 what sort of topics were discussed in that meeting and

    19 why the three or four military people were present

    20 there?

    21 A. I have to explain first. I said that I came

    22 to Backa Palanka around 8.00, but the recording is from

    23 around 8.30. There was no meeting. This is where we

    24 gathered. We came from afar, I don't know, but

    25 probably from 300 to 250 kilometres away. Backa

  69. 1 Palanka is the last municipality where there were no

    2 conflicts. It was a safe zone. We had to know where

    3 to proceed further so that that's where we were

    4 waiting. Mr. Lazarevic came earlier. This is where we

    5 waited for one another. We had to see whether our

    6 reservists were there. We didn't know where their

    7 positions were. So that was the only reason. There

    8 were no meetings. As you can see from the recording,

    9 there was no meeting. People are just sitting around.

    10 When we have a meeting, one person speaks and the rest

    11 listens. Here, there is nothing like that, it's just

    12 chatting.

    13 And at the same time, we carried out a number

    14 of interviews. As I said, we did an interview with

    15 Mr. Novakovic, the mayor of Backa Palanka, and other

    16 business people because Mr. Lazarevic established

    17 business, economic corporation, with Backa Palanka, so

    18 it wasn't a meeting, it was just gathering.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I also ask

    20 you another question? I understand you were throughout

    21 with the President of the Assembly of Kladovo

    22 community, Mr. Lazarevic. He was with you the whole

    23 day. So what sort of clothes was he wearing: military

    24 or civilian clothes?

    25 A. Your Honour, everybody from Kladovo wore

  70. 1 civilian clothes, you can see that from the recording.

    2 There were civilians who came to visit our reservists.

    3 Not a single member of the delegation from Kladovo wore

    4 a military uniform.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. And then you, at

    6 some point this morning, you said that Arkan, when you

    7 were in VELEPROMET, Arkan came out of the meeting --

    8 I'm quoting your words -- came out of the meeting many

    9 times to give interviews.

    10 Do you know what --

    11 A. I'm sorry.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. Do you know whether --

    13 or did you suppose that Arkan was attending a meeting,

    14 a cabinet meeting, a meeting of the government of the

    15 region?

    16 A. I don't know. I apologise. The colleagues

    17 who are interpreting; I'll have to check the

    18 interpretation. At no moment did I say that Arkan came

    19 in and out of the meeting. Mr. Arkan was outside, and

    20 you can see on the tape that he was outside. I didn't

    21 say that he was at a meeting. I only said that I knew

    22 him from TV and from the newspapers. I would need to

    23 check the translation later when we finish. I have the

    24 impression that the interpretation is not the most

    25 precise.

  71. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: It may be that I'm wrong. I

    2 took down probably your words in a wrong way. Don't

    3 worry about that.

    4 In any case, you same that Arkan gave

    5 interviews while being there in the courtyard in

    6 VELEPROMET. Yes.

    7 One small question: I understand that the --

    8 we saw that Mr. Dokmanovic gave an interview to

    9 Mr. Tomasevic. Do you know whether the tape is

    10 available of that interview?

    11 A. You have to ask Mr. Tomasevic. I really

    12 don't know.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. One final

    14 question: As a journalist, as an editor in chief of

    15 Radio Djerdap in Kladovo, were you not interested in

    16 what the cabinet meeting had discussed at VELEPROMET on

    17 your way back to Serbia, when you were to go to the

    18 funeral and so on? I wonder whether you asked

    19 questions to Mr. Dokmanovic about the gist of the

    20 discussions which had taken place at the meeting of

    21 government, of the government of the region.

    22 A. Your Honour, I have to respond as I already

    23 responded. I didn't know on that day that there was a

    24 meeting being held there. In our country, the local

    25 media follow what is interesting to the local

  72. 1 community. We don't conduct global policies. This is

    2 done by national media companies.

    3 For that day, for me, I went to follow the

    4 activities of Mr. Lazarevic. That was my goal. Not

    5 Mr. Hadzic, Arkan, or Mr. Dokmanovic interested me. I

    6 was reporting from the local aspect and following the

    7 events from the local level. So for me, it was

    8 important to state that Mr. Lazarevic was there, that

    9 he attended such and such a place, and I had no idea

    10 that there was a government meeting being held there.

    11 I noticed a lot of well-known people, but I didn't know

    12 the reason for their gathering.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila, any

    14 question arising?

    15 MR. FILA: I would like to explain the

    16 misunderstanding. The witness said that morning that

    17 Mr. Hadzic came in and out several times and gave

    18 interviews.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Yes. I may be

    20 wrong, yes.

    21 All right. Well, I assume there's no

    22 objection to the witness being released? No

    23 objection?

    24 Thank you so much for coming to give evidence

    25 in court, Mr. Jevtovic. You may now be released.

  73. 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    2 (Witness stood down)

    3 (The witness entered court)


    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. May I ask you

    6 to kindly make the solemn declaration?

    7 THE WITNESS: I do solemnly declare that I

    8 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

    9 the truth.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    11 seated.

    12 Examined by Mr. Fila:

    13 Q. Mr. Cvetkovic, did you give a statement to my

    14 office's investigator, Vasic (phoen)? Would you see if

    15 this is your signature, and do you acknowledge this

    16 statement as your own?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D73,

    18 English translation, D73A.

    19 A. Yes, it's my signature.

    20 MR. FILA: If there are no remarks from the

    21 Prosecution, I propose this be submitted as evidence,

    22 D73?

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection from the

    24 Prosecutor?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour.

  74. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    2 MR. FILA:

    3 Q. Did you finish law school in Belgrade?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Were you employed as a lawyer?

    6 A. I worked in an insurance company. Later I

    7 worked in a different company. I was the director of

    8 an insurance firm and then in another different

    9 company.

    10 Q. When did you become president of the

    11 Municipal Assembly in Jagodina?

    12 A. Until June '92, from 1989.

    13 Q. In the meantime, you were a delegate of the

    14 Assembly of Serbia in 1990? Why were you no longer a

    15 delegate?

    16 A. My term of office expired and also for

    17 political reasons.

    18 Q. You were in the area of the municipality of

    19 Vukovar on November 20th, 1991. Were you there before?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. You had a captain's uniform with the

    22 insignia?

    23 A. Yes. I was a reserve captain.

    24 Q. Will you please tell us why you were there

    25 and why you had a uniform and the reserve captain

  75. 1 insignia?

    2 A. I was the President of the Assembly of

    3 Svetozarevo, later of Jagodina. There was a large

    4 number of people there from my municipality; and in

    5 spite of the fact that I was against the war, I was

    6 there in order to try to help the people there who were

    7 in the region of Vukovar.

    8 Q. In what sense?

    9 A. They were there as reservists.

    10 Q. They were mobilised?

    11 A. Yes, mobilised. I couldn't do anything else

    12 but be there and be with them unless I wore a uniform

    13 like all the other reservists.

    14 Q. So that's the reason you had the uniform of a

    15 captain of the reserve while you were in that region?

    16 A. Yes, I was there for under two months.

    17 Q. On the 20th of November, '91, did you see

    18 Slavko Dokmanovic?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Do you know this person from before?

    21 A. I know him from 1989.

    22 Q. Is he in this courtroom, perhaps?

    23 A. Yes, he's over there.

    24 Q. How did you meet him and why?

    25 A. I met him as the President of the Assembly of

  76. 1 Svetozarevo -- Jagodina, and he was the President of

    2 the Assembly of Vukovar, and because these two

    3 municipalities were sister municipalities, my first

    4 contacts were with him as early as '89 or maybe early

    5 '90, in the month of January. I don't remember

    6 exactly.

    7 Q. On the 19th of November, did you meet him --

    8 were you with him on the 20th of November in Backa

    9 Palanka?

    10 A. I was there because I slept in his house. On

    11 the 19th I was there, I spent the night, I had dinner

    12 at his house, I slept in his house with a number of

    13 other people.

    14 Q. Was that a religious holiday, on the 20th?

    15 A. No, there was no religious holiday. He

    16 invited us to dinner. I don't remember. On the 21st,

    17 there is a religious holiday, not on the 20th. On the

    18 21st, there is a holy day of Saint Archangel and it's

    19 an Orthodox Christian holiday and also an artillery

    20 fete of the JNA unit.

    21 Q. I would like you to watch a tape. Did you

    22 have this tape earlier? Did you receive this tape?

    23 A. Yes, I received this tape from friends from

    24 Kladovo, from the President of the Municipality of

    25 Kladovo, who sent me the tape as a souvenir of the

  77. 1 visit to Vukovar.

    2 Q. When did he send it to you?

    3 A. He sent it to me the following year, at the

    4 beginning of '92.

    5 Q. I would like you to look at that tape that we

    6 will show you, and will you please let us know, when

    7 you see yourself, to tell us?

    8 A. This is me.

    9 MR. FILA: Please play the tape.

    10 (Videotape played)

    11 A. Yes, that's me.

    12 MR. FILA: Please stop the tape.

    13 A. I turned it off? I don't have anything on my

    14 screen. I probably turned something off.

    15 Q. Would you please take a look at these

    16 photographs, and could you tell us whether you are on

    17 these photographs? At 10.38, if I'm not mistaken, is

    18 that you?

    19 A.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The photo is marked D74.

    21 A. Yes, that's me.

    22 MR. FILA:

    23 Q. Where are you there and what time is it and

    24 what day?

    25 A. This was on the 20th at 10.38. This

  78. 1 photograph is probably from the centre in Vukovar.

    2 Q. No, no, no. Backa Palanka.

    3 A. Yeah, yeah, 10.38. At 10.38, I was in Backa

    4 Palanka. That's right, that's right.

    5 Q. Now let's run the tape. Where are you now

    6 because the Prosecutor perhaps --

    7 A. I am in Backa Palanka, in the office of the

    8 President of the Municipal Assembly of Backa Palanka.

    9 Q. When Slavko Dokmanovic comes up, you show him

    10 to us, please.

    11 A. He's already been on the video film.

    12 Q. Could you please run it again? Please show

    13 us Slavko Dokmanovic if you see him.

    14 A. Well, here he is.

    15 Q. Okay. Please proceed. Please just say what

    16 is going on here while you're sitting in this room.

    17 A. This was an informal gathering. We stopped

    18 in passing as we were going to Vukovar. We had set out

    19 from Trpinja and we were going to Vukovar and we were

    20 there in the office of the President of the Municipal

    21 Assembly. There was the President of the Municipal

    22 Assembly, Mr. Aleksic, who was an MP together with me

    23 in the Assembly of Serbia, and a couple of other

    24 people. I don't remember the names of all the people

    25 there. I was there, Slavko, Rade Leskovac.

  79. 1 Q. Please show us to him when --

    2 A. Here he is. Here's Aleksic in uniform. Then

    3 the man next to Aleksic was also an MP. This is the

    4 President of the Municipality of Backa Palanka.

    5 Q. What's his name?

    6 A. His name was Novakovic. Yes, Novakovic was

    7 his last name. I don't know. I can't remember right

    8 now. I can't remember his first name.

    9 Q. When you got that over with in Backa Palanka,

    10 where did you go then?

    11 A. To Vukovar.

    12 Q. To Vukovar. How did you go to Vukovar?

    13 A. Military jeep. I drove it.

    14 Q. What's it called?

    15 A. Lada Niva, a red vehicle.

    16 Q. Who was in this vehicle? I mean from Backa

    17 Palanka.

    18 A. From Backa Palanka to Sidski Banovci, to the

    19 commander of the brigade?

    20 Q. Who was driving --

    21 A. Slavko Dokmanovic was in the vehicle. I was

    22 driving it and Rade Leskovac was with, the three of us.

    23 Q. And Jevtovic?

    24 A. No, Jevtovic was not with me then. Yes,

    25 sorry, no. Jevtovic was with me and the President of

  80. 1 the Municipal Assembly of Kladovo. The two of them --

    2 there were four of us in this vehicle when we set out

    3 from Backa Palanka.

    4 Q. At some point in time, were you joined by --

    5 A. Yes, in Sidski Banovci, we were joined by

    6 Rade Leskovac. His car broke down somewhere, I don't

    7 know, somewhere along the road, and he joined us so

    8 there were five of us. Five of us in the car.

    9 Q. Five of you were in the car?

    10 A. Yes, and I was driving.

    11 Q. All right.

    12 A. From Sidski Banovci towards Vukovar, so there

    13 were five of us -- no, four of us.

    14 Q. Five.

    15 A. Oh, yes. From Sidski Banovci, yes --

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I can't follow

    17 this, I'm afraid, it's going too fast, and I don't know

    18 what's --

    19 A. Yes, it is going too fast, really. I mean,

    20 I'll tell you. From Backa Palanka to Sidski Banovci,

    21 it was four of us. I, Slavko Dokmanovic, the President

    22 of the Municipality of Kladovo, and Zoran. He was

    23 director of the radio then in Kladovo. That is until

    24 Sidski Banovci. And then Sidski Banovci, when the car

    25 of Mr. Rade Leskovac broke down, then he joined us

  81. 1 too. So five of us set out from Sidski Banovci to

    2 Vukovar.

    3 Q. Did you arrive in Vukovar in that

    4 composition?

    5 A. Yes, five of us.

    6 Q. And when did you arrive in VELEPROMET?

    7 A. We arrived around 2 p.m. It's depicted on

    8 the tape. What I said to the Prosecutor was wrong. It

    9 was a slip of the tongue. We did not go to Vukovar

    10 first, we first went to VELEPROMET and then we went to

    11 Vukovar and you can see that clearly on the tape.

    12 Q. All right. From Backa Palanka to VELEPROMET,

    13 was Slavko Dokmanovic with you all the time in the car?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. He didn't go out anywhere?

    16 A. No, nowhere.

    17 Q. Now I would like to play a tape for you to

    18 see your arrival in VELEPROMET. Please play the tape.

    19 VELEPROMET, arriving in VELEPROMET and your stay in


    21 (Videotape played)

    22 Q. And please show yourself. Say "This is me."

    23 A. This is me. You can see me very well now, a

    24 bit to the left.

    25 Q. Please continue.

  82. 1 A. This is -- these are some women who were

    2 there, Croat women. They were there in the yard. This

    3 is a bed. I don't know where this was shot. I can't

    4 remember these people. This is Hadzic and this is

    5 Arkan and these are members of his escort. This is

    6 Arkan. His people from his escort. This is Hadzic,

    7 this is Slavko Dokmanovic in front of Hadzic. That's

    8 me. I don't know who the man kissing me is.

    9 Q. Please stop at this point.

    10 A. I didn't see this man. I don't know who this

    11 man is.

    12 Q. Please, could you show these two groups of

    13 photographs to the witness so that he could say what's

    14 there?

    15 That can be a single Defence Exhibit, if you

    16 wish?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked as D75-1

    18 and D75-2.

    19 A. Yeah, that's me. On the right-hand side is

    20 Goran Hadzic. I don't know the other men. And here

    21 behind me Lazarevic --

    22 Q. It's important that you're there?

    23 A. Yeah, yeah, that's me, on both pictures.

    24 MR. FILA: Please continue playing the tape.

    25 A. This is an acquaintance of mine, but I can't

  83. 1 remember his name. The man who was saying hello to me,

    2 I don't know what his name is. I don't know anyone

    3 over here.

    4 Q. Are you in VELEPROMET?

    5 A. Yes, yes, we're in VELEPROMET. This is me.

    6 I don't know these people. I mean, with the exception

    7 of the few people I mentioned, I don't know anyone

    8 else. These are the women who were getting ready to

    9 leave. Most of them were Croat women. These are buses

    10 and trucks that were to transport them to Croatia.

    11 These are some people, I don't know. These are the

    12 people who were getting ready to be transported.

    13 According to the information I received, there were

    14 about 1,000 women, primarily, and a few children,

    15 perhaps 1,500. This is an old lady, and I helped her

    16 before that with her suitcase.

    17 These are all the buses. The women getting

    18 ready to board the bus.

    19 This is a nun, as far as I can see.

    20 These are some of the local people of Serb

    21 background, I think, the workers there. This is Rade

    22 Leskovac. I don't know this man. Goran Hadzic.

    23 This is -- I don't know, I don't know. I

    24 don't know all these people. These are probably

    25 journalists. This is me.

  84. 1 Q. Please stop at this point. This is you at


    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You had spent the previous night at

    5 Dokmanovic's?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What was Dokmanovic wearing the previous day

    8 when you saw him, and that day, what was he wearing?

    9 What kind of clothes did he have on?

    10 A. He had some kind of combination, I don't

    11 know, some kind of camouflage uniform or a hunting

    12 suit, I don't know, some kind of combination. He was

    13 wearing a vest and some kind of a military coat, green,

    14 and underneath he had a waist coat and some kind of

    15 trousers.

    16 Q. Since you were a reserve captain, was this

    17 some kind of regular JNA uniform?

    18 A. No, he didn't have any insignia, only the

    19 regular army had insignia. Many people wore different

    20 uniforms, but they didn't belong to the regular army.

    21 Q. What he was wearing, was this a lieutenant

    22 colonel of the JNA was it that kind of uniform, was it

    23 blue?

    24 A. No, no. He didn't have any kind of uniform.

    25 No insignia.

  85. 1 Q. Was it blue, the colour of the sky?

    2 A. No, it was green and camouflage, whatever.

    3 Q. Do airmen -- do members of the aviation of

    4 the Yugoslav army wear that kind of uniform?

    5 A. No, they wear blue uniforms, to the best of

    6 my knowledge.

    7 Q. Could I show you this uniform and ask you

    8 whether that is what Slavko Dokmanovic wore? Would you

    9 remember that? Can I show it to you?

    10 A. Please.

    11 Q. Can we show D48, is that what Slavko

    12 Dokmanovic wore that day?

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I didn't get an answer from the

    14 witness, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: The answer to which

    16 question?

    17 THE WITNESS: I answered.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: But it wasn't translated, Your

    19 Honour.

    20 A. Oh, it wasn't translated. Please, please put

    21 your question. What am I supposed to answer?

    22 That's it. I think that's it. I don't know

    23 exactly whether that is exactly that uniform, but this

    24 is what he wore, yes, yes. This is the hunting -- the

    25 hunting jacket he wore. You know, I go hunting too,

  86. 1 and I have a similar vest. It's not camouflage like

    2 this one. Mine's of a different colour.

    3 Q. Could you please lift it so we could all see

    4 it?

    5 A. Yes, please have a look. No, this is not a

    6 military uniform, and the Yugoslav army does not wear

    7 this kind of uniform, even army, camouflage uniforms

    8 are not like this. Yugoslav camouflage uniforms are

    9 different. It is light green and the design is

    10 different. It's bigger. This is some kind of

    11 imitation. This is really for huntsmen. You can see

    12 the pockets and also for the ammunition. So it's not

    13 for any kind of weapons. You see? It is for hunting

    14 weapons. It is for hunting weapons, for a shotgun.

    15 All right. And this, this, this is the

    16 colour of military camouflage uniforms. This colour.

    17 Q. And the trousers?

    18 A. No, no, not the trousers.

    19 Q. What do you mean "No"?

    20 A. It's not military, that's what I'm saying.

    21 But this is the colour that military camouflage

    22 uniforms are, this one, like the shirt.

    23 Q. Would any of these three pieces belong to a

    24 lieutenant colonel of the Yugoslav army, of the

    25 aviation, rather? Even in the dark, would you say

  87. 1 that?

    2 A. No, no. First of all, the aviation, the air

    3 force, has clear insignia, and there is definite

    4 insignia showing that this is a lieutenant colonel and

    5 this could definitely not be the uniform of a

    6 lieutenant colonel of the Yugoslav army, thank you very

    7 much.

    8 Q. Was Slavko Dokmanovic with you in the

    9 VELEPROMET compound throughout the period you were

    10 there?

    11 A. No. He was with me for ten or fifteen

    12 minutes when we arrived there and after that he went to

    13 attend a government meeting in a room which was next to

    14 us. We were standing in front of the entrance, and

    15 that is probably where the administration was of that

    16 enterprise. I mean, the offices of that --

    17 Q. Could he have left without you seeing him?

    18 A. No, he couldn't have. There was that one

    19 single iron gate that we saw on the film and there is

    20 no other way of getting out so he couldn't have left

    21 without us seeing him. This is the way it is, you

    22 know. It runs parallel to the compound itself, so

    23 there is no way of getting out of it.

    24 Q. So can I conclude that he could not have left

    25 the meeting throughout -- without you seeing him?

  88. 1 A. No, he certainly could not have, and I was

    2 standing right in front of the entrance to that

    3 building and I did not move from there at all. Perhaps

    4 a metre or two, but not more than that so I couldn't

    5 have seen him, no. So I could see him if he would

    6 leave.

    7 Q. So you saw the tape and you claim that he was

    8 in the building throughout this period of time?

    9 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying, I don't know

    10 exactly where he was within the building but I think he

    11 was attending a session of the government.

    12 Q. So where did you set out from VELEPROMET?

    13 A. I made a mistake there. I told the

    14 Prosecutor [sic] that first I went to Vukovar and then

    15 I went to VELEPROMET. No, no, it was a slip of the

    16 tongue. I was there first. So first when I came from

    17 Sidski Banovci and we came there. And later Slavko and

    18 I, this entire team, five of us, including Rade

    19 Leskovac, Jovan and Zoran, we went to take a look at

    20 Vukovar because I got into Vukovar immediately after

    21 the liberation. Vukovar fell on the 18th and on the

    22 19th I was going to Erdut and I saw Vukovar and I told

    23 them about how terrible it looked so we went to see it

    24 and then --

    25 Q. So you set out from VELEPROMET to the centre

  89. 1 of town?

    2 A. Yes, we went to the centre of town.

    3 Q. Please stop at this point so we could run the

    4 tape and then you could show us your movement on the

    5 tape, so please let us play the tape.

    6 (Videotape played)

    7 A. I can see this -- well, I can only see

    8 houses. I don't know where this is.

    9 Q. Please bring it back. We're running way too

    10 late. Please rewind the tape to 14.29 -- no, 15.05,

    11 for example. That's the time when they were leaving.

    12 Please, you're going to see the tape now and

    13 you're going to tell me who was in the car with you,

    14 what you're looking at.

    15 (Videotape played)

    16 Q. What's this now?

    17 A. These are women that are being transported

    18 out of VELEPROMET. This is some kind of paramilitary

    19 participant. You see the insignia that he's wearing.

    20 They don't belong to the Yugoslav army. This is

    21 Arkan. This is Arkan again. This is Arkan. With a

    22 dog. I saw the dog too then.

    23 These are soldiers, obviously, on the APC or

    24 tank, I can't see well what it is. This is a

    25 reservist. This is a reservist.

  90. 1 Q. That's not important. Let's see when you get

    2 into town.

    3 A. These are members of the Territorial Defence,

    4 most probably. Buses, trucks preparing for transport,

    5 and now we are going down. There are houses that were

    6 destroyed, both left and right. This is a bit lower

    7 than Petrova Gora, that's where VELEPROMET is, this is

    8 below the barracks, there was terrible devastation

    9 there, the trees were destroyed there, the houses were

    10 destroyed. You can't really see this very well. I

    11 don't know where this is. So now we're going down.

    12 Q. When you hear the voice of Slavko Dokmanovic,

    13 please say "This is Slavko Dokmanovic's voice." When

    14 you hear Slavko's voice?

    15 A. This is Slavko, this was his voice.

    16 Q. Whenever you hear him, say "This is Slavko."

    17 A. Now we are moving down towards the centre of

    18 Vukovar. This is my voice. This is my voice. This is

    19 me. This is what I said.

    20 Q. When Slavko is speaking --

    21 A. This is Slavko, this is Slavko, this is me.

    22 This is someone from the back. Slavko is speaking

    23 about the Serb church that they destroyed.

    24 Q. Just say "Slavko is speaking."

    25 A. This is Slavko. This is Slavko. Because

  91. 1 this was the first time that Slavko got into Vukovar.

    2 We stopped at that point someplace.

    3 Q. Could you please have a look at these

    4 photographs. Is this where you stopped at twenty past

    5 three?

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, may I ask you

    7 whether you have many other questions to ask the

    8 witness because --

    9 MR. FILA: What time are we supposed to

    10 break, I'm sorry?

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Half past twelve, but that's

    12 why I wonder whether you have many questions.

    13 MR. FILA: We do have more questions. I'm

    14 sorry, Your Honour, I thought that we were working

    15 until one o'clock. I'm sorry.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. Well, maybe --

    17 let us ask these questions and then we will have a

    18 break.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Documents are marked D76-1

    20 and D76-2.

    21 A. Over here in front by the right hand

    22 building, I stopped here. There was a corpse there and

    23 I didn't want to look at it. They went out to film it

    24 and I stayed in the jeep.

    25 Q. Please let everyone see the photographs.

  92. 1 A. So on the right-hand side, from where you can

    2 see the car, we stopped 10 or 15 metres away from that,

    3 in front of this building there was a corpse, and they

    4 all went out to film it and I didn't want to watch

    5 that, so I stayed in the jeep.

    6 Q. And this other photograph --

    7 A. Ah, yes, yes, yes. This is where my jeep was

    8 and this is a bit further off. This is further off. I

    9 didn't even go there.

    10 Q. These are photographs in that location?

    11 A. Yes, yes, that's from my jeep and I was in my

    12 jeep.

    13 Q. Thank you.

    14 MR. FILA: Could all of this be admitted into

    15 evidence, and this would conclude my questioning before

    16 the break and then I would like to continue after the

    17 break, please?

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: No objection?

    19 MR. NIEMANN: No.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. We

    21 will now take a break and we will start again at 2.00.

    22 --- Lunch break at 12.36 p.m.


    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, you may continue.

    25 MR. FILA:

  93. 1 Q. Mr. Cvetkovic, you saw on the tape the time

    2 printed when you left VELEPROMET to go to the city.

    3 Why did you leave at that time? What were you waiting

    4 for? What decided the time of departure?

    5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone?

    6 A. Since Slavko was at the government meeting,

    7 we waited for him to finish so he could come with us.

    8 Q. Is that the reason why you claim that he

    9 couldn't have passed without you seeing him?

    10 A. Absolutely. I didn't see another different

    11 exit except for the main gate where we came in and

    12 where we left.

    13 Q. Would you look at these photographs now, and

    14 tell us which persons are shown on them and whose

    15 vehicle it is?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D77.

    17 MR. FILA: Just wait for the court to see.

    18 Q. Mr. Cvetkovic, whose vehicle is it that can

    19 be seen?

    20 A. This is my vehicle that I was driving. It's

    21 a vehicle that I brought from Jagodina when I came to

    22 the front, and here beside me on the right is standing

    23 Rade Leskovac, the others I do not recognise. These

    24 were probably the boys who stopped with the car next to

    25 us.

  94. 1 Q. Who is the person in front of number 91?

    2 A. That is our -- from Prijepolje, journalist

    3 from Prijepolje. I can't remember his name right now.

    4 Q. You don't need to remember. Okay. That's

    5 the journalist from Prijepolje. Mr. Cvetkovic, from

    6 the time that you left from VELEPROMET, you told us who

    7 was sitting in the vehicle. You were driving. You

    8 come to the town, you left the town, so when is the

    9 first time that you stop after you left Vukovar?

    10 A. The first time we stopped when we caught up

    11 with the column of cars, i.e. Transport vehicles, there

    12 were also trucks and buses that were transporting the

    13 women that we saw at VELEPROMET for Croatia, so the

    14 first time we stopped there, we couldn't overtake the

    15 column, we were stopped by the military and traffic

    16 police. That's where we stopped.

    17 Q. Just a moment. I would like to see the tape

    18 now which -- please continue the tape so that you can

    19 tell us where it ends and what it is? From 15.00

    20 hours. There. Play it back a little more. Somewhere

    21 around the church. From there.

    22 (Videotape played)

    23 A. This is still in Vukovar.

    24 Q. So what happens now?

    25 A. We're leaving Vukovar. We're going towards

  95. 1 VELEPROMET. We're still in Vukovar. This is Slavko's

    2 voice.

    3 Q. Who is speaking?

    4 A. This is Slavko's voice. This is also

    5 Slavko's voice. He said that the church in Dalj was

    6 like that. He says that all these were Ustashe

    7 houses. I asked him what it is -- he said it was a

    8 church, some kind of sacral monument of a Serbian

    9 landowner. This is an unknown person. This is also

    10 Slavko's voice. This was the park that was

    11 devastated. These trees were damaged. This is where

    12 the health centre was. This is the road towards

    13 Negoslavci. There were no vehicles in the beginning.

    14 There was a passenger later. We caught up with the

    15 column. These are the buses now. And somewhere here

    16 we couldn't go further. This is all Slavko's voice.

    17 We stopped here because the police didn't let us pass

    18 the column.

    19 Q. Stop the tape. So what happened then?

    20 A. Nothing. We stood -- I don't know for how

    21 long, maybe 10, 15 minutes, maybe that long. We didn't

    22 leave the car at all. Then we proceeded towards

    23 Orolik, there we came to a gas station where there was

    24 a ramp and the soldiers probably stopped each vehicle.

    25 They stopped us. They mistreated us a little bit.

  96. 1 They pointed their guns at us. Slavko went out, argued

    2 with them. I was at the wheel. I came out as well.

    3 They saw that I was a captain and then they let us

    4 pass.

    5 Q. What was about the time then, approximately?

    6 A. It was almost completely dark by that time.

    7 I think it was after 5.00 p.m., around 5.00 p.m., I

    8 don't know exactly.

    9 Q. When did you get to Sidski Banovci then?

    10 A. It lasted a while because there were cars,

    11 there was the column of cars, maybe slightly before

    12 6.00.

    13 Q. Okay. This is the question: From the time

    14 you left Vukovar and what we saw on the tape until your

    15 arrival to Sidski Banovci, who was in the vehicle that

    16 you were driving. Did vehicle change or was it the

    17 same group of people?

    18 A. I think Zoran, the journalist from Kladovo,

    19 left earlier. I was in a hurry. I don't remember

    20 where he left the car, whether that was in Sidski

    21 Banovci or somewhere en route. I don't remember. But

    22 Slavko was with me all the time, Lazarevic, the

    23 President of the Municipality from Kladovo and Rade

    24 Leskovac.

    25 Q. From Vukovar through Negoslavci to Orolik,

  97. 1 did you turn on the road anywhere?

    2 A. No, we didn't turn anywhere and we didn't

    3 stop anywhere except for those two places. We maybe

    4 were at a bend near Orolik, we waited a little bit

    5 because of a crowd and then we continued.

    6 Q. So can you claim that from the moment you

    7 left VELEPROMET to your arrival to Sidski Banovci, you

    8 didn't turn from the road maybe to Ovcara or whether

    9 Slavko Dokmanovic left the car?

    10 A. Absolutely. We never left that road, the

    11 road in the direction of Vukovar, Sidski Banovci,

    12 Orolik, except on those two occasions when we stopped

    13 in the column and when we were stopped by the -- at the

    14 ramp by the soldiers in front of Orolik and maybe if we

    15 stopped it would be for a couple of seconds to let some

    16 vehicles past.

    17 Q. So could you claim that Slavko Dokmanovic was

    18 with us all the time and you saw him?

    19 A. Yes, he was with me all the time and he was

    20 sitting next to me.

    21 Q. When did you arrive to Banovci?

    22 A. Around 18 hours, maybe 18 hours, I can't

    23 specify.

    24 Q. When was the time you saw Slavko Dokmanovic

    25 for the last time?

  98. 1 A. We were there for an hour. We had a drink.

    2 We sat in a kitchen. It was a house which was the

    3 headquarters of the brigade, the command of the

    4 brigade. That's where I slept. We were there maybe

    5 for an hour, maybe a minute or so less, and then they

    6 left for Vukovar.

    7 Q. At that time it was dark?

    8 A. Yes, it was absolutely dark.

    9 Q. So when they left from Sidski Banovci, where

    10 did they go?

    11 A. They left from Vukovar to -- I'm sorry, not

    12 Vukovar, for Trpinja, I apologise. Not for Vukovar,

    13 Trpinja.

    14 Q. We're finished with that. I would like to

    15 ask you something else. How long have you known Slavko

    16 Dokmanovic?

    17 A. I know Slavko Dokmanovic, as I said, from

    18 '89, as the President of the municipality of Vukovar.

    19 All the time I was in contact with him. I know him

    20 well. I know his family.

    21 Q. Can you describe him? Can you describe his

    22 family? What kind of a person is he?

    23 A. I can say in just a few words that they are

    24 wonderful family. I know his wife, his daughter, his

    25 granddaughter, his brother. I visited their home

  99. 1 several times. I know him as a quiet man, a fair man.

    2 Not aggressive in the least bit.

    3 Q. Did you have political discussions with him?

    4 A. Yes, yes. Before the war and during the war

    5 and ... I can say that he was not liked either by the

    6 Serbs or the Croats.

    7 Q. Why?

    8 A. Because the Croats said that he was a state

    9 enemy because he had left Vukovar and because he lived

    10 in his village, Trpinja, and the Serbs objected because

    11 he did not organise the resistance movement in Vukovar.

    12 Q. Can you say he was a Chetnik, an extremist or

    13 something?

    14 A. No, not at all. He did not express any kind

    15 of nationalist behaviour. He was a normal person.

    16 Q. You were a member of parliament, you were a

    17 prominent member of the SPS the Socialist Party of

    18 Serbia. You talked to a lot of people, did you talk

    19 about Dokmanovic, what kind of a person he is?

    20 A. Specifically, I did not talk to political

    21 people in Serbia about Slavko Dokmanovic, but, for

    22 example, with the President of the Municipal Assembly

    23 of Backa Palanka with other people with whom I was in

    24 contact then. They all had an excellent opinion of

    25 Slavko Dokmanovic.

  100. 1 MR. FILA: Your Honour, it said SDS in the

    2 transcript, it is SPS, Socialist Party of Serbia.

    3 MR. FILA: No, but the transcript got it all

    4 wrong, it said SDS instead of SPS, the Socialist Party

    5 of Serbia.

    6 Q. Finally, one more question: During all these

    7 meetings you had and these years of acquaintance, did

    8 you have any impression of your own, how his

    9 neighbourhood and his -- and the people around there

    10 regarded him?

    11 A. He is from a well-known peasant's family, and

    12 he's an agronomist and he's a quiet man and he was not

    13 a loud person of any kind. I mean, he was simply

    14 probably elected President of the municipal assembly as

    15 an eminent citizen. At that time he was involved in

    16 agriculture. He was a member of the government because

    17 he was Minister of Agriculture, and he certainly was

    18 not Minister of the Interior or something like that. I

    19 mean, he was Minister of Agriculture.

    20 MR. FILA: Thank you, Your Honour. I have

    21 thus concluded my questioning.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.

    24 Q. Mr. Cvetkovic, you were a President of a

    25 municipality in Jagodina; is that right?

  101. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And your colleague, Mr. Dokmanovic, was, at a

    3 time, also President of a municipality; that's right,

    4 isn't it?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And at that time, in the early 1990s, one had

    7 to be a prominent member of the community to have a

    8 position such as President of the Municipal Assembly,

    9 didn't one?

    10 A. No doubt.

    11 Q. It was a very responsible position?

    12 A. Absolutely, for that community that he lives

    13 in, I mean, where he is President of the Municipal

    14 Assembly.

    15 Q. Yes, that's what I mean. And indeed one who

    16 attains such a position in the local community tends to

    17 be well-respected and well-known?

    18 A. No doubt.

    19 Q. I think you said that you had known

    20 Mr. Dokmanovic since 1989.

    21 A. Yes, from the end of 1989.

    22 Q. And you knew him to be well-known in the

    23 community?

    24 A. I thought so because he could not have been

    25 elected President otherwise. People are supposed to

  102. 1 know him. He was supposed to enjoy a good reputation

    2 because that is the only way in which he can be elected

    3 President of the municipality. It's not just anyone

    4 who can be that.

    5 Q. And he, like yourself, was able to exercise

    6 some influence in your own local community?

    7 A. Yes, in terms of the matters that were under

    8 his jurisdiction, specifically -- I mean, what do you

    9 have in mind, Sir?

    10 Q. Never mind. That's the answer I wanted.

    11 Now, during the period of the war in 1991,

    12 you had a military position, did you?

    13 A. No. I was a reservist and I went voluntarily

    14 because many people from my municipality were at the

    15 front and I had a lot of trouble with their wives,

    16 their mothers, their relatives because people didn't

    17 want a war. You know that. You know that there were a

    18 lot of problems with mobilisation. So I went there so

    19 I would be near them, so that I could establish contact

    20 with their relatives, so I could give them things that

    21 they needed at the front, so I could send them supplies

    22 and things like that. So I was there as their

    23 support. And I did not have any military post except

    24 that I wore a uniform because I had to wear the uniform

    25 of a reservist at the front. It does not have any

  103. 1 special insignia, it's the same like any other military

    2 uniform, but I'm a reserve officer.

    3 Q. Yes, okay. Now, one of the reasons why you

    4 put on a uniform and went to the front was to set an

    5 example to the other people and members of your

    6 community that were there; that's right, isn't it?

    7 A. I was against the war, and that was not my

    8 intention. I didn't want them to follow me into the

    9 war. Nobody went with me or after me except for my

    10 driver who was there for a certain period of time.

    11 And -- he's a reservist too so he was there with me.

    12 Q. I wasn't really suggesting that you were, in

    13 a sense, leading your local people into the war. What

    14 I'm saying is that the people had to be there because

    15 that was required of them, and since they were there,

    16 you went there --

    17 A. No, no, no. They were not expected to be

    18 there, no. I cannot recall that any other President of

    19 the Municipality was at the front voluntarily except

    20 for me and that was the only reason why I was there. I

    21 don't think that a single municipality had so many

    22 people on the front as we did.

    23 Q. So you didn't go there in any way to lend

    24 support or to give good example to the people that were

    25 there fighting? That wasn't your purpose?

  104. 1 A. No, no. I just wanted to lend my support to

    2 them. I mean, to have someone take care of them. They

    3 were reservists. There were very few active soldiers

    4 there. This was a brigade of reservists. These were

    5 people who were not very obedient. They did not really

    6 listen to their command, but they respected me.

    7 Q. Well, who gave you the uniform to wear?

    8 A. The army, the army.

    9 Q. Did they give you any weapons?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And what --

    12 A. But I didn't wear any weapons. I just had a

    13 revolver, my own. I did not wear an automatic rifle, I

    14 only had my revolver and a small Heckler.

    15 Q. Where were you stationed?

    16 A. In Sidski Banovci.

    17 Q. Where is that?

    18 A. That is 12 or 15 kilometres away from Sid on

    19 the territory of the Republic of Croatia, from a few

    20 kilometres away from Tovarnik and Ilaca on the road to

    21 Vukovar.

    22 Q. What did you do there? What was your daily

    23 functions there?

    24 A. Every day I went to see the troops because

    25 they were deployed at various artillery points and I

  105. 1 went to see them and food was coming in from Jagodina,

    2 cigarettes, and I distributed that. I mean, I

    3 accompanied these people who had brought it in and I

    4 distributed it equally to the troops.

    5 Q. Did you have a commander or were you just

    6 there of your own accord?

    7 A. No, I didn't have a commander, I didn't have

    8 a commander, I wasn't responsible to anyone. No, I

    9 didn't have a commander.

    10 Q. And no one was responsible to you?

    11 A. No one was responsible to me. I behaved like

    12 a civilian except that I wore a uniform.

    13 Q. And you visited the troops?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You moved around the front?

    16 A. The front was far away. This is 22

    17 kilometres away from Vukovar. I was not in the

    18 immediate vicinity of Vukovar. There was the artillery

    19 brigade.

    20 Q. How did you travel around?

    21 A. I walked on foot.

    22 Q. Where did you get the vehicle from on the day

    23 you went to Vukovar?

    24 A. From the Electric Distributsia (phoen) of

    25 Jagodina, that is the power company in Jagodina. Since

  106. 1 I did not have a jeep and the power company in

    2 Jagodina, rather the director of this company, they

    3 gave me a jeep.

    4 Q. Did you require any passes or permission or

    5 permits to travel around the place where you were

    6 stationed?

    7 A. Yes, yes, yes. The military authorities

    8 asked to see our IDs, there were checkpoints in Sidski

    9 Banovci, the military police always stopped us and they

    10 asked to see our IDs.

    11 Q. And what did your ID say you were? What

    12 position did they say you had?

    13 A. Captain and the permits are usually signed by

    14 the commander, if we go to Sid or if we go to another

    15 place outside Sidski Banovci, then I have to get a

    16 piece of paper saying I'm so and so and I'm going to

    17 such and such a place.

    18 Q. The commander in Sid wasn't your commander?

    19 A. No, no, he was not in Sid, he was in Sidski

    20 Banovci, and I slept together with them in the same

    21 house, I mean, but I was not under his command.

    22 Q. I see. And --

    23 A. And I had to get permission from the military

    24 authorities because I could not pass if I didn't have

    25 permission of the military authorities.

  107. 1 Q. The place that you stayed in in Sidski

    2 Banovci, was that a place occupied by military

    3 personnel?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And the meals, tell us about the conditions

    6 there, the food and facilities that were provided.

    7 Were they provided by the military?

    8 A. We got food from the military. We ate the

    9 same thing that the military ate, nothing else. We ate

    10 what the military ate too, so these are military cooks,

    11 and the cooking facilities were far away. We didn't

    12 really have a mess hall or anything, we ate there in

    13 the dining room of that house.

    14 Q. Along with the other soldiers that were

    15 there?

    16 A. Together with the active duty soldiers and

    17 the reservists, all the rest, I mean, who were

    18 stationed there.

    19 Q. I see. Now, this -- the place where you were

    20 stationed, Sidski Banovci, that, you say, wasn't near

    21 the front, it was a long way from the front.

    22 A. Twenty-two kilometres away.

    23 Q. Did soldiers come back to this place who had

    24 been at the front or --

    25 A. No, no. This brigade was located there and

  108. 1 it didn't move anywhere. It was located in Sidski

    2 Banovci, in Sid, and it did not move.

    3 Q. This brigade was made up of people that had

    4 come from your municipality?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And did these people that had come from your

    7 municipality, they had stayed there -- what? -- during

    8 the whole course of the war, had they?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And you said a moment ago that you had a

    11 special gift in being able to control them because of

    12 your position back in your own municipality?

    13 A. I did not control them, I just wanted to make

    14 their position easier. I did not control them in any

    15 way.

    16 Q. Didn't you say there were some that were

    17 unruly, or did I mishear that?

    18 A. Yes, I did say that. They weren't very

    19 disciplined, you know, I mean, that's what I meant.

    20 They weren't like a regular army, they were like

    21 reservists. There were people who were older, there

    22 are people the age of 30 or 40, I mean, they're not

    23 real soldiers. You know what reservists are like. So

    24 they did not have the kind of strict discipline that

    25 the regular army had.

  109. 1 Q. They weren't part of Mr. Arkan's group, were

    2 they?

    3 A. No, no, no way. No. I first saw Mr. Arkan

    4 there in Vukovar, when I saw him there. I didn't even

    5 know where he was or what he was doing.

    6 Q. Did you see Mr. Dokmanovic during the course

    7 of the war other than at the time that you saw him in

    8 Vukovar on the 20th of November, 1991?

    9 A. I came to see him before that too. I mean, I

    10 was with him on the 19th of November and before that.

    11 I went to see him at his village and in Erdut during

    12 the war.

    13 Q. And was he stationed in Erdut during the war

    14 when he wasn't in -- prior to him going to --

    15 A. Yes, that is where the seat of the government

    16 of the autonomous province of Krajina was. He didn't

    17 live there, but when meetings were held he was there

    18 because was a minister of the government. Erdut was

    19 the centre of SAO Krajina.

    20 Q. Did you see him there in his capacity as

    21 Minister during the course of the war?

    22 A. Yes, yes, I saw him.

    23 Q. And what did you see him for? Was it

    24 official business or just on a personal basis?

    25 A. He would come officially -- he didn't wear a

  110. 1 uniform except for the clothes we saw over here, and he

    2 didn't have any insignia.

    3 Q. I didn't ask you that. I was asking you when

    4 you saw him in Erdut. Did you see him in an official

    5 capacity or was it merely just a social, friendly

    6 meeting?

    7 A. Oh, no. Friendly. Friendly. I would even

    8 wait for the government session to be over and then I'd

    9 wait for him and then we'd go together to Trpinja or

    10 whatever. We were good friends. I was worried. And I

    11 brought beer from Jagodina and cans from Juhor to his

    12 village. I sent humanitarian aid to his village too

    13 and I took care of the people there and I was worried

    14 about them. That was the reason why I would see him.

    15 Q. Even so you are reserve captain during the

    16 course of the war, you still fulfilled your duties as

    17 President of the Municipality; that's right, isn't it?

    18 A. While I was at the front, no. I had a deputy

    19 and I was in touch with him only over the phone and

    20 possibly I told him what to do, et cetera.

    21 Q. Yes.

    22 A. Also, I asked him what he should send in for

    23 the army.

    24 Q. And -- but what I am saying is apart from

    25 your deputy stepping in and assisting you, you still

  111. 1 officially maintained your position?

    2 A. Absolutely.

    3 Q. Now, the day before you and Mr. Dokmanovic

    4 went to Vukovar, you spent the night in his house; is

    5 that right?

    6 A. Yes, that's right, I spent the night at his

    7 house in Trpinja.

    8 Q. What time did you arrive there; do you

    9 remember?

    10 A. It was dark. I think it was around 6.00

    11 p.m., there was a football game, Vezna (phoen) was

    12 playing and I'm a fan and we wanted to watch the game

    13 and there was no electricity in Trpinja, so Rade

    14 Leskovac wanted to find a TV set and he stayed

    15 somewhere else and he didn't even come back and so we

    16 had to listen to the game on the radio.

    17 Q. When was the decision made to go into Vukovar

    18 on the 20th?

    19 A. That evening. I came there with that

    20 intention, I saw Vukovar on the 19th. He hadn't seen

    21 it before that. And the President of the Municipality

    22 of Kladovo, Lazarevic, and other people came and they

    23 all wanted to see it because I told them all about it,

    24 I told them how horrifying it was and they all wanted

    25 to see it because Vukovar had been liberated.

  112. 1 Q. And you went there also, didn't you, to -- as

    2 a demonstration of support for the people of Vukovar

    3 and the region?

    4 A. What are you referring to? I mean, going to

    5 Vukovar or generally speaking about when I went there

    6 or are you talking about that specific day, the 20th?

    7 I don't really understand your question. It's not very

    8 specific.

    9 Q. Did you go there just out of curiosity to see

    10 what had happened or did you go there because you were

    11 President of the Municipality and that you wanted to

    12 show the people that you supported them, those people

    13 that suffered as a consequence of the war?

    14 A. You are referring to people from Vukovar or

    15 are you referring to my people who were at the front?

    16 Could you please be more specific? I don't exactly

    17 know what you are referring to. Are you referring to

    18 the people from this region or are you referring to the

    19 reservists.

    20 Q. Well, were your reservists at Vukovar?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Well, obviously you didn't go there to

    23 support those people.

    24 A. No. I went to Vukovar with the intention of

    25 going to Erdut, not knowing that I could not go through

  113. 1 Vukovar. I found out on the 19th from the commander

    2 that Vukovar had been set free, had been liberated, but

    3 I could not go through Vukovar, and the military showed

    4 me the map, and I went back to Sidski Banovci and then

    5 I went there to Backa Palanka via Ilok to Erdut. That

    6 is to say I had not particularly set out to go to

    7 Vukovar, I mean it is much closer this way because

    8 Trpinja-Banovci is 40 kilometres, via Backa

    9 Palanka, Ilok, Sarengrad, et cetera, and

    10 via Bogojevo Bridge, that is 100 kilometres to

    11 Erdut, and further on to Trpinja. And that is why I

    12 had set out for Vukovar. I didn't know what it was

    13 like at all. I was astounded. I could not have

    14 imagined that it was destroyed to such an extent.

    15 Q. But hadn't you been there only a couple of

    16 days prior to this, to Vukovar itself?

    17 A. No, no. I had never been to Vukovar before

    18 that. I mean, during the war. You could not get in.

    19 That is where the focal point of the conflict was.

    20 Nobody was allowed to get in there. I mean, only those

    21 who were literally in war there. So, on the 19th, it

    22 was the first time that I had got into Vukovar and I

    23 went back again on the 20th.

    24 Q. I'm sorry, we're at cross-purposes because I

    25 was talking about the day of the 20th was the second

  114. 1 time that you went to Vukovar, wasn't it?

    2 A. Yes, yes, absolutely.

    3 Q. Now --

    4 A. Yes, and the day before, yes. So I was there

    5 on the 19th and the 20th.

    6 Q. Did Mr. Dokmanovic tell you why he wanted to

    7 go to Vukovar?

    8 A. He said that he was supposed to have a

    9 government meeting in Vukovar and that that would be

    10 the first government meeting to be held in liberated

    11 Vukovar.

    12 Q. Did he say why the government were going to

    13 meet in Vukovar on that day, the 20th?

    14 A. No, no. He didn't say. But I didn't ask him

    15 about it either. We didn't really discuss it. I

    16 didn't ask him about it.

    17 Q. So you knew why he was going. My question

    18 is: Why did you go on that day, the 20th?

    19 A. He was with me in the same vehicle. He -- I

    20 drove him. He had no other vehicle to take. He was

    21 with me all the time in my vehicle because the other

    22 man's car had broken down because when this car is

    23 broken down, he had no other way of getting to Vukovar

    24 except by my vehicle, and I wanted to go and see it

    25 again.

  115. 1 Q. Who was the other man?

    2 A. The other man I'm talking about is

    3 Rade Leskovac who is deputy Minister of Information in

    4 Krajina and the third person was Lazarevic, President

    5 of the Municipality of Kladovo, and the fourth one was

    6 Zoran, the director of radio Kladovo, Zoran Jevtovic.

    7 Q. It was Rade Leskovac, the deputy Minister of

    8 Information, it was his car that broke down, wasn't it?

    9 A. Yes, yes.

    10 Q. And where did his car break down?

    11 A. His car broke down, he was following our

    12 vehicle, and it broke down somewhere in Sidski Banovci

    13 or somewhere near that place, I can't remember exactly,

    14 and then he joined us in our vehicle.

    15 Q. That would have been after you left Trpinja?

    16 A. After we had left Trpinja, then we went to

    17 Backa Palanka, and then we went to Sidski Banovci, it

    18 was the four of us, and then the car of Rade Leskovac

    19 broke down and he joined us in my Lada Niva jeep as the

    20 fifth person there, it was a civilian car.

    21 Q. But Mr. Dokmanovic couldn't have made a

    22 decision to go with you because the vehicle that was

    23 owned by Rade Leskovac had broken down because he

    24 wouldn't have known the car was going to be broken down

    25 until he got halfway there; isn't that right?

  116. 1 A. But he was with me all the time. I told you

    2 Slavko Dokmanovic was not with Rade Leskovac but with

    3 me in my car from Trpinja.

    4 Q. Yes, but the point I'm trying to make is that

    5 I asked you the question why Mr. Dokmanovic went with

    6 you and you told us it was because Rade Leskovac's car

    7 had broken down. That can't have been the reason why

    8 initially --

    9 MR. FILA: Objection, Your Honour. This is

    10 simply not true. Let the Prosecutor show the

    11 transcript where he said that he went with his car

    12 because Rade Leskovac's car broke down. That is not

    13 true. And, please, don't try to confuse the witness,

    14 but say all that is in the statement --

    15 A. I said this out loud that Rade Leskovac,

    16 somewhere around Sidski Banovci, his car broke down,

    17 and that's when he entered my vehicle (FEEDBACK) all

    18 the time from Trpinja via Backa Palanka to Sidski

    19 Banovci, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was with me and the

    20 three people I mentioned, the President of the

    21 Municipality of Kladovo and also Zoran Jevtovic, the

    22 journalist. I said this clearly when Rade Leskovac's

    23 car broke down, he entered our vehicle, so the five of

    24 us then went to Vukovar.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I might respond to

  117. 1 Mr. Fila. He doesn't seem to be following the

    2 transcript very closely, Your Honours, because at page

    3 111, line 11, the witness answered in the following

    4 way: "He was with me in the same vehicle. He -- I

    5 drove home. He had no other vehicle to take. He was

    6 with me all the time in my vehicle because the other

    7 man's car had broken down because when this car are

    8 broken down, he had no other way of getting to Vukovar

    9 except by my vehicle."

    10 And that's what I relied upon, Your Honour.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Maybe -- can you ask again --

    12 MR. FILA: Maybe you would need to resolve

    13 this question with your interpreters. I have been

    14 following this closely and I know the geography. This

    15 is my country and I know the road that they took. You

    16 cannot go to Trpinja to Sid without going through Backa

    17 Palanka, and probably Mr. Niemann did not bother to

    18 look at the map. If he looked at the geographical map,

    19 he would understand that the questions he is asking

    20 have no sense, and I am following this procedure. This

    21 is my country. I have to follow it and I wish the

    22 court would coordinate. It would be much easier then.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: Well, I would not say that

    24 the question that Mr. Niemann is putting has no sense,

    25 but I would like to call upon Mr. Niemann to rephrase

  118. 1 his question.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour. I don't need

    3 to pursue it any further, Your Honour. I think the

    4 point is made.

    5 Q. Now, the next morning, when you got up to go

    6 to Vukovar, what time did you get up?

    7 A. I got up exactly at 6.30, had a shower and

    8 shaved, they were still asleep, and then around 7.00

    9 they got up and we left. Maybe we all had breakfast

    10 there and then perhaps we left at around 8.00. I don't

    11 know at exactly what time we started out.

    12 Q. And the other people, Mr. Dokmanovic, was in

    13 the house. Was there anyone else in the house that

    14 morning that left in the vehicle to go or was it just

    15 you and him?

    16 A. Lazarevic was with me, the President of the

    17 Municipality of Vukovar -- I'm sorry, of Kladovo, and

    18 his driver who left, I think he left with somebody,

    19 maybe Zoran, I don't remember, maybe he drove Zoran,

    20 his driver was sleeping. We were sleeping on the floor

    21 in the living room since there wasn't enough room. The

    22 house was full from the people -- the house's

    23 inhabitants and us, the arrivals.

    24 Q. Did Mr. Lazarevic and Mr. Dokmanovic, if you

    25 can remember, have a shower as well and breakfast and

  119. 1 then leave with you?

    2 A. I don't know whether they had a shower. I

    3 was the first to get up, I had a shower, I shaved, I

    4 didn't have the opportunity to have a shower in Sidski

    5 Banovci, so I used the opportunity to have a shower

    6 here. I was dirty.

    7 Q. Now, did you stop on the way from Trpinja to

    8 Backa Palanka?

    9 A. I don't know. I don't remember if we

    10 stopped. I don't think that we stopped anywhere.

    11 Q. And when you arrived at Backa Palanka, where

    12 did you go?

    13 A. Straight to the municipal assembly.

    14 Q. That is the municipal assembly of Backa

    15 Palanka; is that right?

    16 A. Yes, municipal assembly of Backa Palanka.

    17 Q. Who made the decision to go there?

    18 A. I had met earlier with Mr. Novakovic the

    19 President of the Municipal Assembly, all humanitarian

    20 aid went through Backa Palanka, all humanitarian aid

    21 for the army, for the population, across the Danube

    22 went through Backa Palanka, and Ljubo Novakovic was

    23 directly responsible for that help. I personally sent

    24 trucks there with cans and other necessary things for

    25 the army, and we stopped by to meet with him there. It

  120. 1 was said that some other people would be there. This

    2 was an informal meeting, wasn't agreed upon. We stayed

    3 a little bit, maybe had some coffee or a drink, I don't

    4 remember everything exactly, and then we left for

    5 Vukovar.

    6 Q. Now, at this particular meeting you

    7 attended -- I will withdraw that.

    8 Did Mr. Dokmanovic have anything to say about

    9 going to this meeting in Backa Palanka? Did he -- did

    10 you consult him about it?

    11 A. No. It wasn't a meeting, we just stopped by

    12 at Ljubo Novakovic's, there was no agenda, nothing was

    13 specified, we just said we would stop by Ljubo

    14 Novakovic's in Backa Palanka. So it wasn't a meeting,

    15 it was a stopover for a talk and maybe for a glass of

    16 some drink.

    17 Q. And this is something that you had

    18 prearranged, it was not -- it had nothing to do with

    19 Mr. Dokmanovic, is my question?

    20 A. The only connection was that Slavko

    21 Dokmanovic was with us, there was nothing special, not

    22 a special connection or that he had a scheduled meeting

    23 with a certain subject to discuss or for -- with a

    24 certain task. Nothing happened. It was an informal

    25 meeting.

  121. 1 Q. What was discussed at this meeting?

    2 A. We talked about -- the topic was the fall of

    3 Vukovar, that was the most frequent topic, and what

    4 will happen if the war is over, what will happen in the

    5 reconstruction of Krajina, that the people had suffered

    6 a lot there. That's generally what was talked about,

    7 what we will all help. These were the topics.

    8 Q. Was there any discussion about dealing with

    9 people who you believed to be responsible for the war

    10 in Vukovar?

    11 A. Let me tell you, we didn't talk about that,

    12 the responsibility of some people for the war in

    13 Vukovar, we didn't discuss that at all.

    14 Q. There was no discussion about setting up

    15 people's courts or anything of that nature to deal with

    16 persons responsible, that you heard, at least?

    17 A. No, no way.

    18 Q. Now, there were some military personnel

    19 there.

    20 A. We discussed nothing on that topic.

    21 Q. There were military personnel --

    22 A. There were a few military people, there was a

    23 President of a Municipal Assembly in uniform from

    24 Vrsac, Aleksic, who was stationed in Ilok, and he came

    25 in another car up until Ilok, he was supposed to come

  122. 1 to Vukovar, but we forgot to take him so he stayed in

    2 Ilok.

    3 Q. Were any of the participants in this meeting

    4 armed?

    5 A. I had a gun, Jovan probably had a gun, we

    6 were there with guns, I don't know who had guns, I did

    7 have a gun, and I know that the reservists had guns.

    8 For the others, I don't remember. To tell you the

    9 truth, I don't remember seeing who had arms.

    10 Q. Why was it necessary to have a gun at a

    11 meeting like this?

    12 A. We were moving in an area where there was

    13 war. A gun is for personal defence, it's a weapon that

    14 serves the purpose of personal defence. People carry

    15 that when there is no war, never mind when there is a

    16 war situation.

    17 Q. But you were in no personal danger at Backa

    18 Palanka, were you?

    19 A. It's not logical for me to take my belt off

    20 and to take my gun off when I'm in uniform. In war

    21 time, this is a part of the uniform. A person is

    22 armed. He doesn't take that off unless military

    23 authorities demand that I come in somewhere without

    24 arms. Then I would give them. But it's not usual to

    25 take my belt off and to take my gun off.

  123. 1 Q. Now, what time did you leave Backa Palanka?

    2 A. I don't know. Perhaps around 1.00. I don't

    3 know exactly. It must be there on the recording. I

    4 watched the tape, but I don't remember. I saw the

    5 timer, but I don't remember. I've forgotten.

    6 Q. Was it a difficult or long trip going from

    7 Backa Palanka up to Vukovar?

    8 A. It wasn't difficult. The road was free. It

    9 was a round about way. We went through Sarengrad,

    10 Ilok, Sid, Tovarnik, et cetera, up to Sidski Banovci,

    11 but it wasn't particularly difficult. There wasn't a

    12 lot of heavy traffic.

    13 Q. And this is an area which is reasonably

    14 familiar to you, is it not?

    15 A. Absolutely.

    16 Q. And the roads weren't very crowded, I think

    17 is your evidence, isn't it, at that hour of the morning

    18 or that time of the day?

    19 A. At that time, no. Everything was over. The

    20 army was moving when there was -- during the battle for

    21 Vukovar. This was the second day. There were no

    22 movements by military units. Civilians didn't move

    23 very much in that area.

    24 Q. Now, when you arrived at Vukovar, what did

    25 you do? Where did you go first?

  124. 1 A. I made a mistake when I made my statement to

    2 the Prosecutor, I said I went to Vukovar first, but it

    3 was a slip of the tongue. First of all, I turned right

    4 away and I saw that on the film. I turned -- we turned

    5 right away to the transport company, this is where we

    6 waited for Slavko, this is where we saw what I told you

    7 before, and then we left for Vukovar. This is all in

    8 Vukovar, but this is on the outskirts of Vukovar. So I

    9 was in Vukovar, but I didn't go to the centre of

    10 Vukovar but to the transport company. But I made a

    11 slip of the tongue when I gave my statement to the

    12 Prosecutor who took my statement in Belgrade.

    13 Q. Never mind about that. You went to the

    14 VELEPROMET premises first.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Why did you ...

    17 A. Slavko told me that there is a government

    18 meeting there. I didn't have any particular task.

    19 Slavko said to go to the government meeting, and that's

    20 where we waited for him, because of that, for him to

    21 finish that. I didn't attend the session.

    22 Q. What did you do while he was attending the

    23 government meeting?

    24 A. I stood there and I talked to people. There

    25 were a few acquaintances that I know from Vukovar.

  125. 1 They introduced me to Arkan, who I saw for the first

    2 time in my life then. I saw Hadzic, I know him from

    3 before. I talked to him. After that --

    4 Q. I'm sorry. You keep going.

    5 A. After that, while waiting, I talked with

    6 different people. There was a lot of people there.

    7 Some of them I knew, some of them I didn't know. I

    8 stayed with the people that I came with except for

    9 Slavko, who was at the meeting.

    10 Q. Now, you said you had a conversation with

    11 Arkan. What did you discuss with him?

    12 A. With him, he was wounded, he was showing me

    13 the sub machine gun, how a sniper -- a small calibre

    14 injured him while he was holding the gun and it came

    15 out through his index finger of the left hand, that's

    16 what he was talking about, and he also showed me a

    17 knife that some woman called Martha killed an

    18 11-year-old boy who was exchanged later for Serbian

    19 prisoners. That's what he was telling me about. He

    20 was telling me about a dog, he had a dog in the jeep,

    21 and so on. There was no particular conversation.

    22 Q. Did he go into the meeting, the government

    23 meeting; did you see that or not? Whether or not he

    24 went into the government meeting at any stage?

    25 A. I saw that he left, I saw that he left, not

  126. 1 right away, when they did -- maybe after a few minutes,

    2 but where he was, I don't know. He went into the same

    3 entrance where the Ministers went in, President Hadzic

    4 and others. But where he was, I don't know, because I

    5 didn't enter the building.

    6 Q. And how long after you and Mr. Dokmanovic

    7 arrived did President Hadzic arrive?

    8 A. Very quickly, maybe several minutes later.

    9 Q. Did President Hadzic arrive with Mr. Arkan?

    10 A. I didn't see that the two of them came in

    11 together, but I assumed that they did -- that group of

    12 people, Arkan and some with them, I assume Hadzic too,

    13 came in at the same time. I didn't really see this.

    14 Q. Now, your evidence is that you actually

    15 didn't go into the building where the Ministers met?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. And so you didn't see the interior of this

    18 building?

    19 A. I saw the inside of the building later

    20 because I came on another occasion a few days later,

    21 but on that day, no.

    22 Q. Is there just one entrance and exit to this

    23 building, or are there other doors?

    24 A. I didn't see any other. I think there is one

    25 entrance, there's a large hall, it's a one-floor

  127. 1 building, it's a modest building. I think this

    2 building is -- abuts onto another yard and there's no

    3 exit on that side. If there is, I didn't see it. But

    4 if there was any other exit, it would be into the yard,

    5 so they would have to pass through the gate.

    6 Q. Now, after the meeting had concluded, you met

    7 up again with Mr. Dokmanovic.

    8 A. We were waiting for him to finish the

    9 meeting. That was the point. And to go and see

    10 Vukovar.

    11 Q. And when he came out of the meeting, what did

    12 he say to you?

    13 A. Nothing. "Let's go." Maybe a couple of

    14 minutes later, we sat in -- we got into the jeep and

    15 went to the centre of Vukovar.

    16 Q. When he said "Let's go," did he say where to

    17 go to?

    18 A. Yes, we agreed to go to the centre of

    19 Vukovar, to look at Vukovar. He wanted to see it. He

    20 had not been to Vukovar before. But it's

    21 understandable -- this is also Vukovar only we were in

    22 the outskirts of Vukovar, and this was a part that was

    23 not destroyed much.

    24 Q. And when he saw what was in Vukovar, was he

    25 disturbed by what he saw?

  128. 1 A. He was very upset and shook up. He couldn't

    2 believe it. He couldn't comprehend that it was

    3 destroyed that much and you could hear his comment from

    4 the vehicle.

    5 Q. Was he angry?

    6 A. He was angry that it had to be that way. Why

    7 did Vukovar have to be destroyed in that way? Because

    8 if you think of a mayor -- imagine a mayor who enters

    9 his city and see how destroyed it is. What was he

    10 going to do? He didn't know who destroyed that or

    11 how. He had no idea. I didn't know when I went to see

    12 it the first time that it was so horrible.

    13 Q. Now, if we can see the video clip starting

    14 from the point where we're in the middle of the town,

    15 if we could start at that point, please, the town of

    16 Vukovar, and heading out?

    17 I'll probably ask for the video to be stopped

    18 on a couple of occasions as we go through.

    19 A. Go ahead.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps it could just play for

    21 a minute because I do have a question, seeing as we are

    22 here.

    23 Might the technicians move it forward for me,

    24 please? This is very early in the piece.

    25 A. After 15 hours, when the timer is at 15

  129. 1 hours, is that so?

    2 (Videotape played)

    3 Q. I think you identified this earlier in your

    4 evidence as being at VELEPROMET; is that right?

    5 A. This is probably when the women were

    6 transported from VELEPROMET for Croatia on the route

    7 that I explained, and I said that this is a member of

    8 some units unknown to me. This was Arkan. Here it

    9 is. This is Arkan. And that's the dog that was in the

    10 car when he came. He was injured in his hand.

    11 This is some military vehicle, either a

    12 transporter or a tank, this is a reservist. These are

    13 all reservists.

    14 These are -- this is soldiers.

    15 Q. I don't need to be here. If we can move it

    16 forward further into the centre of the town. It's just

    17 leaving the town, at the point where we're leaving the

    18 town, the centre of the town. 15.26, I believe.

    19 I think this is in the centre of the town, is

    20 it not?

    21 A. I still don't see if this is the centre. I

    22 don't remember seeing or encountering these vehicles.

    23 These are military medical vehicles. I don't

    24 remember. This is Nebojsa Lazarevic, this is a

    25 military jeep, this is Slavko.

  130. 1 Q. I don't want to confuse you, Sir. You just

    2 look at it and tell me if you can identify what you're

    3 seeing.

    4 A. This is Slavko here and "Korea", we call him

    5 "Korea" he's a journalist from Prijepolje, I can't

    6 remember his name -- last name at the moment, I just

    7 know his nickname, "Korea".

    8 Q. I don't want you to necessarily tell me who

    9 they are, just identify the spot, if you can. If you

    10 can tell me where it is, so just keep looking until --

    11 A. Not able here. I don't see -- I only see a

    12 part of the building, I have to see the street in order

    13 to be able to say where we are. These buildings are

    14 such that I can't identify them, particularly because I

    15 don't really know. These are reservists.

    16 Q. So this may not be part of Vukovar, it may be

    17 some other town?

    18 A. Oh, no -- yes, this is Vukovar, these are the

    19 houses. This is down towards the centre. Here, these

    20 are the dead -- I saw one dead person. This is where

    21 already going down towards the centre. This is that

    22 church, the Orthodox church, that was destroyed, and

    23 now this, I can identify this -- this is the street

    24 that leads down to the centre.

    25 Q. Is this going down into Vukovar or out of

  131. 1 Vukovar?

    2 A. Yes -- no, towards Vukovar.

    3 Q. Just stop for a moment. Stop the tape for a

    4 moment.

    5 A. Down towards Vukovar.

    6 Q. So this is the decent into Vukovar down from

    7 VELEPROMET, not the other way around; you're sure about

    8 that?

    9 A. Let me tell you, this is a part of the

    10 street. I would be very imprecise about this. I would

    11 have to see more. I would like to show him --

    12 MR. FILA: I would like the witness to be

    13 shown a longer segment.

    14 A. Show me the part we stopped with the car and

    15 I will tell you what it is because I can't identify

    16 this.

    17 MR. FILA: Please, would you show the tape to

    18 the witness from the moment they leave VELEPROMET, go

    19 towards Vukovar, and are coming back, but not to take

    20 it out of context and say this is Vukovar. Even

    21 Slavko, who knows Vukovar very well, cannot say what

    22 this is, and I can't definitely. Exit from VELEPROMET

    23 is at 15 hours and 17 minutes.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please comply with

    25 the request of the Defence counsel?

  132. 1 MR. NIEMANN: If Mr. Fila is suggesting I'm

    2 trying to confuse the witness, which is the last thing

    3 I'm trying to do, then I'll start the tape right from

    4 the very beginning and go through it. I was trying to

    5 save the court time. The suggestion is that I am

    6 deliberately trying to confuse the witness, so would

    7 the technician please play the whole tape?

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: That's not necessary. Just

    9 the little bit. When you're in the centre, the centre

    10 of Vukovar.

    11 MR. FILA: From 15.17. I apologise, Your

    12 Honours, from 15 hours and 17 minutes. That's when

    13 they started out from VELEPROMET this last -- for two

    14 or three minutes. I don't ask for the whole tape of 25

    15 minutes. But if you ask a person, is this Vukovar from

    16 one tape, then you are trying to do something else.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not trying to do anything

    18 else, Your Honour. I'm trying to ask the witness to

    19 clarify the position. Perhaps the tape could be played

    20 from 15.17? If that might suit my friend?

    21 Could the tape just be held there for a

    22 moment, please? Thank you.

    23 Q. Now, Witness, if you have any doubts about

    24 where it is or you want clarification, please say so.

    25 I'm not here in any way trying to confuse the issue. I

  133. 1 want clarification. So, please, don't hesitate.

    2 Now, if you don't understand it, let us know.

    3 A. It's okay.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Can the tape now be played?

    5 A. I understand very well. From.

    6 MR. FILA: From 15.17, this is 15.19, from

    7 15.17, please.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please go back to

    9 15.17?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: I asked for that, Your Honour.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: There doesn't seem to be one,

    12 Your Honour.

    13 A. This is the voice of Slavko Dokmanovic. He

    14 is saying "Let's go down there."

    15 MR. NIEMANN:

    16 Q. Now, I don't want you to tell me --

    17 A. He is saying "Let's go left, but I don't see

    18 anything yet."

    19 Q. Please, do not recite what's going on. I

    20 merely want you to tell me locations. That's the only

    21 thing I'm interested in is locations. When you see a

    22 location that you recognise --

    23 A. This is Vukovar. Okay. This is the descent,

    24 going down into the centre of Vukovar.

    25 Q. If there are other parts that you recognise,

  134. 1 can you please say so when you see it?

    2 A. This is where the sacral monument was of some

    3 Serbian land owner. I asked Slavko what that was.

    4 Q. Are we leaving Vukovar or going out --

    5 A. We're going towards the centre, no, we're

    6 going towards the centre. And here we are. We stopped

    7 here on the right side next to this building. This is

    8 where we saw the killed man with his eyes gouged out.

    9 I didn't want to leave the car. I stayed. And they

    10 went out, all of them, except for me. They went out to

    11 tape it.

    12 Q. What did they say when they went out? Did

    13 they say anything to you?

    14 A. They were depressed. They saw a few other

    15 corpses. Everybody was depressed. Everybody was

    16 having a hard time. You can see here with the cut

    17 throat, I've seen this now -- when I was watching the

    18 recording but I didn't leave the car to see that. You

    19 can see that where it happened at the location.

    20 Q. The next part of the tape I want you to

    21 indicate, Witness --

    22 A. I don't know who this is.

    23 Q. -- when you actually start to leave the

    24 centre of Vukovar. That's the part that I want you to

    25 tell me when you get to that point.

  135. 1 A. We're here now. This is where I went out of

    2 the car.

    3 Q. Where are you moving to now, Witness? Where

    4 is the vehicle being driven to now?

    5 A. Turned around and went back the same way that

    6 we came, the same building that we passed by, now we're

    7 going back. The same church that we passed by going

    8 down, now we're coming back. And now we're going back

    9 up the hill. I don't know if this is the same footage

    10 that was shown for going down. I can't say exactly.

    11 It looks the same. Until I see it, I can't really

    12 say. This is the way out of Vukovar. This is

    13 the sacral monument, it's near an Orthodox grave yard,

    14 and now we're making our way up.

    15 Q. Now, did you stop anywhere along this route?

    16 A. No, no, we didn't stop anywhere.

    17 Q. Isn't your vehicle stopped here --

    18 A. Now we're going out.

    19 Q. Stop for a moment. Stop the tape for a

    20 moment.

    21 A. I don't know. This is a park. Perhaps we

    22 had a look at the park. There was a clinic somewhere

    23 here near the park. Perhaps we stopped there. I can't

    24 tell precisely.

    25 Q. Did you stop --

  136. 1 A. We didn't go out anywhere.

    2 Q. Did you stop anywhere else?

    3 A. Not here. We stopped only when we got out of

    4 Vukovar, somewhere near Negoslavci, where we managed to

    5 pass the column, that is the first point at which we

    6 stopped.

    7 Q. If we could continue rolling the tape,

    8 please?

    9 So you're moving again now; is that right?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Now, did you stop again -- I'm sorry, I

    12 didn't mean the tape to stop -- did you stop again

    13 after this?

    14 A. This is -- no, no. There was a clinic here,

    15 Slavko showed it to me. We didn't stop anywhere, no.

    16 The road was empty and we were getting out of Vukovar

    17 and we joined the column only at a later point and we

    18 didn't stop anywhere. Absolutely.

    19 Q. Where is this point here? Can you tell me?

    20 Where is it? This particular spot.

    21 A. This is the road leading out of Vukovar.

    22 These are the outskirts of Vukovar. This is the road

    23 towards Negoslavci.

    24 Q. These are the last houses as you move out of

    25 Vukovar?

  137. 1 A. The last houses as you move out of Vukovar.

    2 Q. Thank you. Could the tape continue to roll,

    3 please?

    4 A. We are now joining the column.

    5 Q. Stop there. Are you able to identify -- I'm

    6 asking you if you could identify this place. Where are

    7 you here?

    8 A. I can't, I can't. I can't see anything here

    9 except for the bus. I can't say exactly where we are.

    10 This is the road from Vukovar to Negoslavci, and

    11 Negoslavci is approximately three or four kilometres

    12 away from Vukovar, so it is on that road.

    13 Q. I'll now ask you, if you would -- well, play

    14 it through, please.

    15 (Videotape played)

    16 MR. NIEMANN: That's enough. That's

    17 finished. Thank you very much.

    18 Q. Now, if the witness might be shown Exhibit

    19 P4? And could it be placed on the overhead projector.

    20 And, Witness, I'd ask you with a marker, with a

    21 pointer, to point on the road where you left Vukovar on

    22 that day, the 20th, the part that we've just been

    23 looking at on the video, would you please mark on

    24 the -- not mark, but with a pointer, firstly point to

    25 Vukovar and then the road that you followed out of

  138. 1 Vukovar.

    2 A. Let me just have a look.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters can't hear the

    4 witness.

    5 MR. NIEMANN:

    6 Q. Witness, when you talk, you'll need to speak

    7 into the microphone; otherwise, you can't be heard.

    8 A. Vukovar is over here.

    9 Q. Now, perhaps the camera might zoom in on that

    10 for us, if they would?

    11 A. Just a moment, please. Let me see what is

    12 the road that we had passed. I can't find Sidski

    13 Banovci -- oh, here it is, Tovarnik -- I have to find

    14 Sidski Banovci. Probably this road here. Just a

    15 minute. Let me see. I can't see Sidski Banovci here,

    16 I can only see Tovarnik.

    17 Q. Well, I don't need you to go beyond -- the

    18 only area we're interested in is Vukovar and then the

    19 first place that you stopped on the way out of

    20 Vukovar. Can you see the road between Vukovar and

    21 Negoslavci?

    22 A. Oh, yes, yes. We stopped somewhere here on

    23 this road, from Vukovar to Negoslavci, but I can't see

    24 Negoslavci here. Oh, here's Negoslavci. We stopped

    25 somewhere here, somewhere before Negoslavci. We were

  139. 1 leaving Vukovar and Negoslavci is here. If you saw what

    2 I was pointing at, somewhere around here, before

    3 Negoslavci, here. This is the road. This is where we

    4 stopped. This is where the settlement is. We joined

    5 the column because we could not pass it. So it's

    6 somewhere around here. Just before Negoslavci.

    7 Q. Could you see Negoslavci from where you were,

    8 where you pulled up?

    9 A. No, we couldn't see anything from the

    10 vehicles, but we came there very quickly. There were a

    11 lot of people in Negoslavci, because the local people

    12 got out to see this column of women, it is primarily

    13 women who were leaving, and they were showing three

    14 fingers to these women who were on the buses, but the

    15 military police stopped us here, just before

    16 Negoslavci, we reached Negoslavci very soon, but I

    17 couldn't see anything from this column, I couldn't see

    18 where precisely I was. So we got into Negoslavci, and

    19 I imagine we were just before Negoslavci because we got

    20 into Negoslavci very quickly, so we stopped there a bit

    21 because these women from Negoslavci wouldn't let the

    22 buses get through immediately. I mean, the buses on

    23 which these women were that were being transported out.

    24 Q. And this place where you stopped before

    25 Negoslavci, were there houses in the area? Was it an

  140. 1 inhabited area?

    2 A. No, no. These were fields. There were

    3 fields on the side. There weren't any houses.

    4 Q. Well, perhaps we should look at the video for

    5 a moment. And I'd ask you to look at it again for us.

    6 A. All right. Right.

    7 Q. If we could just have the very last section

    8 starting from 15.36 -- or 15.34, around about that

    9 area, right at the very end, the point where the buses

    10 are.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: It's the wrong tape. I'm

    12 afraid it's the wrong tape. This has to be scrolled

    13 back.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, may I ask you

    15 whether you have many other questions?

    16 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour, I'm just about

    17 finished.

    18 Q. Now, Witness, before the tape is played, I

    19 want you to look very closely at it and see if you can

    20 see any houses where the buses are, and also -- well,

    21 no, perhaps we'll just start -- just tell me that,

    22 whether you can see any houses where the buses are?

    23 A. I can, but this is obviously Vukovar. This

    24 is ...

    25 Q. There's no houses at this point. You see

  141. 1 that.

    2 A. No, no houses. No houses. Now the bus.

    3 Q. You see that building behind there -- perhaps

    4 we can --

    5 A. I saw -- I saw a house, but I couldn't see

    6 that from the buses because I was on the other side of

    7 the bus. I was trying to overtake the column. It's

    8 possible that that was the very beginning of

    9 Negoslavci, it's quite possible. We did not turn

    10 anywhere, I mean, from the road from Vukovar to

    11 Negoslavci, we didn't stop anywhere until the police

    12 asked us to join the column because we had tried to

    13 overtake.

    14 Q. This isn't Ovcara, by any chance?

    15 A. I don't even know where Ovcara is. It isn't

    16 on that road. I've never been to Ovcara.

    17 Q. You noticed from the video that we just saw,

    18 there is the last houses from Vukovar, as you left

    19 Vukovar, and then this place you said you stopped.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Do you remember seeing any houses from the

    22 edge of Vukovar and this place? Did you remember

    23 seeing any houses on the road between those two places?

    24 A. No, no. I didn't see any houses and I don't

    25 think that there are any houses there until Negoslavci,

  142. 1 not that I think so, I'm sure that there aren't any

    2 houses there along the road. It's a clearing. Before

    3 Negoslavci, I think that there was a brigade there with

    4 Howitzers, I don't know, perhaps I saw that. But

    5 nothing else.

    6 Q. The first houses you come to after you leave

    7 Vukovar, the first houses --

    8 A. After Vukovar, the first houses are

    9 Negoslavci, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

    11 MR. FILA: No, no. I would just like to be

    12 clear on one point. Mr. Cvetkovic keeps saying that he

    13 was the President of Svetzarevo and then of Jagodina.

    14 It's the same town, you know.

    15 A. No, I explained that. That's no problem. I

    16 explained that, that the town of Jagodina used to be

    17 called Svetozarevo, and then when I became President,

    18 we changed the name back to the old name, Jagodina. It

    19 was in existence as Jagodina for seven hundred years

    20 before that.

    21 MR. FILA: This was just by way of

    22 clarification. Nothing else, thank you.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I have a point which -- on

    24 which you may clarify the matters.

    25 If I am --

  143. 1 A. Yes, sir.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Tell me if I am correct. You

    3 said that the meeting at Backa Palanka was attended by

    4 another President of the Municipal Assembly whom you

    5 forgot to bring with you to Vukovar so that he remained

    6 at Ilok. Is that correct?

    7 A. Yes, that's right. That was Aleksic,

    8 President of the Assembly of Vrsac. He was in uniform

    9 and he was with the reservists in Ilok, and he asked us

    10 to ask his commander whether he could come with us and

    11 we forgot, so he stayed behind in Ilok.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. May I ask you

    13 where Vrsac is?

    14 A. Vrsac is in Banate, at the southern part

    15 towards Romania.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: In your view, why did he wear

    17 a military uniform? He was a political --

    18 A. He was also a reservist. I think that he was

    19 mobilised because he's a young man. I think he was

    20 mobilised.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Thank you so

    22 much. Any objection to the witness being released?

    23 Thank you so much for giving evidence in court. You

    24 may be released.

    25 And we now take a 20-minute break.

  144. 1 --- Recess at 3.33 p.m.

    2 --- Resumed at 3.52 p.m.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Good afternoon. May I ask

    4 you to make the solemn declaration, please?

    5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    7 truth.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    9 seated.

    10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.


    12 Examined by Mr. Fila.

    13 Q. Mr. Tomasevic, did the investigator from my

    14 office, Miro Zaric (phoen), talk to you?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Could you please take a look? Is this the

    17 statement that you signed and can you identify it as

    18 your statement?

    19 A. With pleasure.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D78,

    21 and the English translation, D78A.

    22 A. Yes. This is the statement that I signed and

    23 that I gave to Investigator Zaric (phoen).

    24 MR. FILA: If there are no objections, I

    25 suggest that it be marked as Defence Exhibit number 78?

  145. 1 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. For the sake of

    2 procedure, there are two technical errors here, and I

    3 told your investigators about it when I talked to them

    4 in Belgrade.

    5 "Witness Statement." It says: "I was

    6 employed in Prijepolje from 1983 until --" it's

    7 supposed to say 1997 rather than 1994, as it does here,

    8 "and from '94 to '97, I was also the acting director.

    9 Also, I did my military service in Belgrade from

    10 November 19" -- it is 1984 until October 1985. I know

    11 that because I have a copy of the statement in the

    12 Serbian language.

    13 MR. FILA: If there are no objections to this

    14 corrected statement, I suggest that it be admitted into

    15 evidence.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Any objection?

    17 MR. NIEMANN: No, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    19 MR. FILA:

    20 Q. Did you complete the faculty of political

    21 science in Belgrade?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. When?

    24 A. In 1982.

    25 Q. Where were you employed after that?

  146. 1 A. After that, I was employed in Poljemje

    2 (phoen) in Prijepolje, as a journalist. That is where

    3 I live, and I said that in my statement.

    4 Q. Were you there in 1991?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Do you know Slavko Dokmanovic?

    7 A. I first saw him -- it was the first and only

    8 time I saw him that day in Vukovar.

    9 Q. Do you see him here somewhere in this room?

    10 A. Yes, that is the gentleman over there.

    11 Q. So for the first time in your life you saw

    12 him on the 20th of November, 1991?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. On the 20th of November, 1991, why were you

    15 in Backa Palanka?

    16 A. A few days before that, I was in Belgrade,

    17 and I talked on the telephone with my colleague and

    18 friend, Mr. Jevtovic from Kladovo, and he told me that

    19 on that day, he and a group of people from Kladovo

    20 would be travelling to the area of Vukovar in order to

    21 take humanitarian aid there. I was guided by

    22 professional curiosity, and I asked whether I could

    23 accompany them, and they said I could. And the next

    24 morning, very early, I joined them on this journey in

    25 Belgrade.

  147. 1 Q. In front of the Hotel Slavija?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 MR. FILA: Could you please play the

    4 beginning of the tape now, Defence tape, the part from

    5 Backa Palanka, please?

    6 Q. When you see yourself, could you please tell

    7 us?

    8 Could you please stop the tape?

    9 Could I please ask the usher to show these

    10 photographs to the witness, to Witness Tomasevic, to

    11 identify himself, if he is in these photographs?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D79.

    13 A. Yes, yes. That is that photograph. It is

    14 framed from the videotape that you mentioned.

    15 MR. FILA: Could you please continue playing

    16 the tape now?

    17 (Videotape played)

    18 Q. When you see yourself, please show me again

    19 where you are.

    20 A. Stop. This is where I am, in the back.

    21 MR. FILA: Please play the tape a bit more?

    22 Then -- ah, yes, you can see better now. Yes. Stop.

    23 Thank you.

    24 Could I ask the usher to show these

    25 photographs?

  148. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D80.

    2 MR. FILA: If there are no objections, could

    3 this please be admitted into evidence as a Defence

    4 Exhibit? Both photographs, I mean.

    5 Q. Do you recognise the faces in this

    6 photograph?

    7 A. Yes. I'm at the right. Next to me is

    8 Mr. Boris, a journalist from Radio Kladovo, then

    9 Mr. Lazarevic, Nebojsa Lazarevic, President of the

    10 Municipal Assembly of Kladovo, and the gentleman who is

    11 in front, I don't know his name, but I think that at

    12 that time he was a Member of Parliament from Kladovo in

    13 the Parliament of Serbia.

    14 Q. Thank you. Do you remember where you went

    15 afterwards from Backa Palanka and with whom?

    16 A. Yes. From Backa Palanka, the group that I

    17 was with set out for Vukovar.

    18 Q. Who was in this group?

    19 A. In this group, there was I and a gentleman

    20 called Mirko Dragisic and a gentleman whose last name

    21 is Ivezic, I think, the driver of the Municipal

    22 Assembly of Kladovo, then Mr. Jovan Cvetkovic,

    23 Mr. Dokmanovic, Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Zoran Jevtovic, and

    24 Mr. Rade Leskovac.

    25 Q. You took two cars, I imagine, because there

  149. 1 were quite a few of you, it seems to me.

    2 A. I think that at one point we even had three

    3 cars for one leg of the journey, but after that, I was

    4 in one car, and Mr. Dragisic were the driver, Slavko,

    5 that driver from the municipal assembly of Kladovo.

    6 In the other car, a red Lada Niva, were --

    7 Mr. Cvetkovic was driving, Mr. Dokmanovic,

    8 Mr. Lazarevic, and Mr. Jevtovic.

    9 In the third car, I think it was a Mercedes,

    10 chocolate-coloured Mercedes, was Mr. Leskovac, but his

    11 car broke down somewhere along the road, and then he

    12 also moved into the Lada that I mentioned.

    13 Q. Were you following this car all the time, I

    14 mean the red Lada Niva?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. When you arrived in Vukovar, did you arrive

    17 at the same time?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Does that mean that -- does that mean that at

    20 the same time when you arrived with your car that

    21 Slavko Dokmanovic arrived with his car too?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And you saw him all the way, I mean, from

    24 Backa Palanka to Vukovar?

    25 A. He was within eyesight, yes.

  150. 1 Q. When you arrived in Vukovar, where did you

    2 stop first?

    3 A. This is as far as I can remember, on the

    4 outskirts of Vukovar. It was the yard of a company.

    5 VELEPROMET, it was called.

    6 Q. When you passed the gate, when you enter the

    7 compound of VELEPROMET, was Slavko Dokmanovic with you?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. What did you do in VELEPROMET during that

    10 period of time that you spent there, and do you know

    11 what Slavko Dokmanovic did during that time?

    12 A. We were in the part of the yard that is

    13 immediately after this metal gate that was opened. Our

    14 group that came was there, and there were some other

    15 people there too. I didn't know them and I didn't know

    16 who they were or what they were. We were looking

    17 around, we were talking to one another.

    18 Q. Do you know where Slavko Dokmanovic was at

    19 that time?

    20 A. For a certain period of time, Slavko was with

    21 us, and then he got into a building which was on the

    22 right-hand side, it was to the right of the gate where

    23 we entered the place, from the street; and a meeting,

    24 some kind of meeting, was taking place in this

    25 building, and Mr. Dokmanovic attended that meeting.

  151. 1 Q. And what happened when Mr. Dokmanovic came

    2 back? Did you see him when he came back?

    3 A. Yes. We were waiting for him to come out,

    4 and we spent a few more minutes there at that same

    5 position at the entrance into the yard, and then we got

    6 into our cars again, and we went well into the town of

    7 Vukovar.

    8 Q. I would like to have the tape played now,

    9 please, and could you show us whether this is what you

    10 said?

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 Q. That's it. Please watch the tape and see

    13 whether that's it.

    14 If you see yourself, please show us.

    15 A. Yes. This was filmed as we were entering

    16 Vukovar.

    17 Q. Stop. Would you please tell us who is on the

    18 picture and what they are doing?

    19 A. This is me and Mr. Dokmanovic.

    20 Q. Excuse me. Just one moment, please.

    21 I would like the witness to be shown these

    22 photographs. This is part 80?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: D81.

    24 MR. FILA: D80.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: D81.

  152. 1 MR. FILA: We will wait for the judges to

    2 look at the exhibit.

    3 Q. Could you please tell us who is on the

    4 photograph and what is happening at that time?

    5 A. The photograph, and before that on the tape,

    6 are depicted myself and Mr. Dokmanovic. I used a

    7 moment, the stop that we made at an intersection there

    8 in Vukovar, to take a statement from Mr. Dokmanovic

    9 about his impressions about everything that was

    10 happening and that we had seen. As a professional

    11 journalist, I always carried in my bag a small

    12 reporter's tape recorder which I used to take

    13 statements for my radio show, so I did this this time

    14 with Mr. Dokmanovic.

    15 Q. What did you do in the centre of town when

    16 you got there?

    17 A. While I was talking with Mr. Dokmanovic, the

    18 rest of the group were looking around them. I think we

    19 stayed there for a few minutes at that intersection.

    20 Then we could hear shots. We could hear, if I remember

    21 well, several individual shots and then several more

    22 shots, and this was the reason why we turned our

    23 vehicles around and sat -- went back into the vehicles

    24 and took the same road back to leave the city.

    25 Q. Can you remember the impressions of Slavko

  153. 1 Dokmanovic in that interview? What did he tell you?

    2 A. As far as I remember, I wouldn't even call

    3 that an interview, I would only call that a statement,

    4 you know, because of its form -- because of its length,

    5 it's not an interview in the classical sense, so it's a

    6 statement.

    7 I asked Mr. Dokmanovic for his impressions

    8 about everything. As far as I remember, he told me

    9 that, the first thing, that he was amazed to see what

    10 he was seeing because this was the first time he

    11 entered the City of Vukovar. He was amazed at the

    12 destruction and by the corpses that we saw on the

    13 streets, and you could see that on the videotape. He

    14 told me that things should not have come to this.

    15 Everything could have been resolved in a different way

    16 without war, without this unnecessary destruction and

    17 the numerous victims. He said that he hoped that this

    18 will never happen again anywhere and that the world

    19 will draw a lesson from this and will never allow this

    20 to happen again.

    21 At the end, he expressed the desire, the

    22 hope, that Vukovar will remain in Serb hands.

    23 Q. In his words, was there any desire for

    24 revenge? Was there any revengeism [sic] there?

    25 A. No, I remember that Mr. Dokmanovic didn't

  154. 1 talk about any categories such as hate, conflict, war,

    2 and so forth. I think that he spoke generally about

    3 the unnecessary human suffering and the unnecessary

    4 destruction in destroying the city and the material

    5 goods.

    6 Q. When you finished everything, which direction

    7 then did you proceed in?

    8 A. Well, we went back towards the exit to

    9 Vukovar, the same way that we came. We took the same

    10 way to return, back towards Backa Palanka.

    11 Q. So now you're coming back. Who is in which

    12 car?

    13 A. The same composition. In front, there is the

    14 Lada Niva that is driven by Mr. Cvetkovic, and

    15 Mr. Leskovac, Lazarevic, and Novakovic are there. This

    16 is followed by the car of the Kladovo Assembly, which

    17 were myself, the driver, and Mirko Dragisic.

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter didn't hear the

    19 question.

    20 MR. FILA:

    21 Q. If I understood properly, the Lada was

    22 leading and you were driving behind the Lada, so you

    23 could see the Lada in front of you all the way along

    24 the road?

    25 A. Yes, we drove one behind another, one car

  155. 1 behind another.

    2 Q. Did you stop anywhere from the time you left

    3 Vukovar until you arrived to Sidski Banovci and how

    4 many times did you stop?

    5 A. As far as I remember, we stopped twice. On

    6 the first occasion, when we arrived, when we overtook

    7 the convoy of the buses and the military trucks which

    8 was accompanied by the International Red Cross, they

    9 were transporting civilians. Then there was a traffic

    10 jam on the road, so this is where we stopped. This

    11 lasted -- I can't remember exactly -- several minutes,

    12 not too long.

    13 Q. So that was the first time. What about the

    14 second time?

    15 A. The second time we stopped at an intersection

    16 in a place called Orolik where, once again, there was a

    17 traffic jam. There was the column of the buses and the

    18 military vehicles. Once again, our vehicles tried to

    19 overtake this column, but we came to a barrier which

    20 was across the road, and this was manned by the JNA

    21 military police. We stopped there.

    22 I think we waited for some time and so

    23 forth. Then the gentlemen that I described who were in

    24 the Lada Niva went out of the vehicle and they went

    25 towards the soldiers who were there. As far as I

  156. 1 remember and as far as I understood the situation at

    2 that time, they wanted the barrier to be raised so that

    3 we could pass, so that we didn't have to wait there.

    4 There was an incident there, there was a kind

    5 of argument between the military police and the group

    6 there, and when we saw that, me and the people from my

    7 car came out of the vehicle and went towards them, the

    8 other group. There were a few other people who got

    9 involved as well. There was some cursing and arguments

    10 and so on.

    11 The situation was resolved in the way that

    12 Mr. Cvetkovic, who was a reserve officer of the JNA,

    13 used his authority as an officer, so then he kind of

    14 mediated for the situation to settle down, and in a

    15 way, with his officer's authority, he ensured for the

    16 barrier to be raised and then we passed with our

    17 vehicles.

    18 Q. Can you remember at what time of the day this

    19 was? What was the time and what was the visibility?

    20 A. This was already dusk. So at the break, at

    21 the change between day and night, visibility was

    22 limited in any case.

    23 Q. During your first stop, did Mr. Dokmanovic

    24 leave the car; do you remember?

    25 A. No. None of us left the vehicles during the

  157. 1 first stop.

    2 Q. And then at the second stop, what happened?

    3 During that journey from Vukovar and up to Orolik and

    4 further, did you turn from the road anywhere --

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. -- especially before you got to Orolik?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. After Orolik, where did you go?

    9 A. After, we went to a place called Sidski

    10 Banovci.

    11 Q. How long did you stay there?

    12 A. I think until maybe 18 hours. It was already

    13 night. In one of the houses in the village was the

    14 headquarters of the unit commanded by Mr. Cvetkovic.

    15 We went there, entered there for refreshments. Myself

    16 and Mr. Jevtovic very quickly after that left those

    17 premises, we left that location, and the reason was we

    18 were told that the bridge between Backa Palanka and the

    19 other bank of the Danube closes for traffic at seven

    20 o'clock because this was a war zone. I needed to be in

    21 Belgrade the next day. Mr. Jevtovic also was in a

    22 hurry. And for that reason, we separated from the

    23 group. From Mr. Cvetkovic we received a military

    24 vehicle and a driver who drove us from Sidski Banovci

    25 across the bridge and to the bus depot in Novi Sad.

  158. 1 Q. Thank you very much. What was the last time

    2 when you saw Slavko Dokmanovic?

    3 A. I saw him last there in -- on those premises

    4 where the headquarters of Mr. Cvetkovic was, and this

    5 was around 18 hours, as far as I can recall. I can't

    6 be precise about the time.

    7 Q. Did he say good-bye to you?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 MR. FILA: Thank you. I have no more

    10 questions.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann.

    13 Q. When Mr. Cvetkovic spoke to the JNA people at

    14 the Orolik checkpoint, what did he say to them; can you

    15 remember?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. You said he used his authority as a captain.

    18 He was a captain of the region, was he, of that

    19 particular area?

    20 A. I didn't say he was a captain. I don't know,

    21 really, if he was a captain. In any case, he was a

    22 reserve officer. I don't know what his rank was.

    23 Q. But in any event, you said that he exercised

    24 his authority which cleared up the matter and permitted

    25 you to pass?

  159. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. You then went to the headquarters,

    3 Mr. Cvetkovic's headquarters, in Sidski Banovci; is

    4 that right?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And at that place, he ordered that you be

    7 given a car to take you back to Belgrade; is that

    8 right?

    9 A. I don't know if he ordered, but he did

    10 provide a car.

    11 Q. Going back to the morning of the 20th when

    12 you're in Backa Palanka and attended the meeting in

    13 Backa Palanka, what was discussed at that meeting?

    14 A. I wouldn't call that a meeting, first of all,

    15 because as far as I know, it wasn't an officially

    16 scheduled, organised gathering.

    17 They discussed different things, and from the

    18 time distance, I can't really be specific or quote

    19 anything from there, but I think mostly the current

    20 political situation was discussed, what was happening

    21 in that area and so forth, and also other things were

    22 being talked about, of course. We were there for a

    23 couple of hours in that office, so I can't really be

    24 specific about what was spoken.

    25 Q. Was there any discussion about the proposed

  160. 1 government meeting in Vukovar?

    2 A. I can't remember.

    3 Q. Was there any discussion as to what would

    4 happen in Vukovar now that the war was over?

    5 A. I didn't understand.

    6 Q. Was there any discussion about what would

    7 happen to Vukovar now that the attack on Vukovar had

    8 been completed?

    9 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

    10 Q. Did you make any notes of this meeting? Was

    11 it of any newsworthy value so far as you were

    12 concerned?

    13 A. No, I didn't take notes at that time because

    14 my intention was not to go there in order to gather

    15 news. I'm a journalist in a local newspaper house and

    16 it's far away from that region, so that I didn't even

    17 have the technical capability to broadcast news or it

    18 wasn't something that was interesting to my listeners.

    19 My intention was different. I wanted to see something

    20 there and then later, my impressions, to publish them

    21 in the form of a report in a local paper.

    22 Q. Did you understand why the meeting took

    23 place, whether it be informal or otherwise? Do you

    24 understand why those men were gathered there?

    25 A. I think because it was the last place before

  161. 1 the entry into the war zone.

    2 Q. Why was it necessary for them to gather there

    3 for that reason?

    4 A. I don't know. I can't reply to that. I

    5 can't be any more specific than what I've already

    6 stated.

    7 Q. Why did you go to this meeting?

    8 A. I tried to explain that before. As a

    9 journalist, I was interested to see with my eyes what

    10 really happened -- what's really happening there

    11 because before, earlier information that I had about

    12 that was through the media, and as I said, since I was

    13 presented with this opportunity, my original plan was

    14 to try to make a report, a feature, from the war zone.

    15 Because previously, once before, I was on the front

    16 during the events in Dubrovnik, and then after that, I

    17 wrote a very nice feature. When I say "nice," I mean

    18 from the journalistic aspect, very good quality feature

    19 from that region.

    20 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you, why did you go to

    21 the meeting at Backa Palanka? Why did you attend that

    22 meeting?

    23 A. Simply, all the people that I was in the

    24 group with, they went, entered that building. What

    25 else could I do? I went with them.

  162. 1 Q. Did you know why they were going to Vukovar?

    2 A. Yes, they were driving -- taking humanitarian

    3 aid there.

    4 Q. Did the humanitarian aid go with you, in the

    5 group of people that went with you? Did they take

    6 humanitarian aid?

    7 A. The group that was taking the humanitarian

    8 aid separated in Backa Palanka. One group of people

    9 and the truck with the aid left to a different

    10 destination where, as far as I know, were reservists

    11 from Kladovo. This group, comprising the people that

    12 I've already mentioned, went to Vukovar.

    13 Q. Yes, but the group of people that you went

    14 with to Vukovar either didn't go there for the purposes

    15 of providing aid or, alternatively, they became

    16 separated. Can you clarify what happened for us?

    17 A. I can't really explain that specifically, if

    18 you're asking me why did I go with this group and not

    19 with the other group. I went with this group because

    20 of all of those people, I only knew Mr. Lazarevic and

    21 Mr. Jevtovic, so it's quite logical that I would go

    22 with them and I would not be separated from them and

    23 not to go with people that I saw for the first time in

    24 my life.

    25 Q. You didn't travel with Mr. Dokmanovic in the

  163. 1 same vehicle at any stage, did you?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. When you arrived at Vukovar, where did you

    4 go?

    5 A. I already said that earlier. If I need to

    6 repeat it, I will repeat it.

    7 Q. Please do.

    8 A. When we got to Vukovar, we entered into the

    9 yard of this company, VELEPROMET. I said that we were

    10 there -- at the beginning of the yard, it was quite a

    11 big yard, we were there for a while, maybe an hour,

    12 approximately, and then we went down into the town

    13 until the place where I spoke with Mr. Dokmanovic, and

    14 then we came back, as I already described.

    15 Q. Did you see Arkan at this place?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Did you speak to him?

    18 A. I didn't directly talk to him the way I'm

    19 speaking directly with you, it wasn't a dialogue

    20 between myself and Arkan, but the whole group that I

    21 was with talked to him. They talked with Arkan.

    22 Q. Did you see any JNA officers there?

    23 A. Where do you mean?


    25 A. Yes.

  164. 1 Q. Did you know who they were?

    2 A. You mean by name?

    3 Q. Yes.

    4 A. No, no.

    5 Q. Did you recognise any rank?

    6 A. I can't remember that, really. It's a detail

    7 that wasn't important to me at that moment, and a lot

    8 of time has passed since then, so I can't remember.

    9 But it's true that there were officers and soldiers.

    10 Q. Now, a government meeting took place at

    11 VELEPROMET when you were there?

    12 A. That's what we were told.

    13 Q. Did you endeavour to find out what the

    14 meeting was about?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. As a journalist, wouldn't it have been of

    17 some interest to you, to know what the meeting that was

    18 taking place was about?

    19 A. No. You know, I was aware of my position as

    20 journalist at that moment. Before me, there were

    21 journalists there already and they came from major

    22 publishing, media houses, and they were reporting from

    23 that region, they were giving information and news, so

    24 there was no need for me to look for something

    25 exclusive or any other kind of news.

  165. 1 Q. So how long did you stay there while the

    2 meeting was on?

    3 A. Maybe about an hour. You can see that from

    4 the timing, by analysing the videotape.

    5 Q. Now, when Mr. Dokmanovic came out of the

    6 meeting, did he speak to you or to a group of people

    7 there?

    8 A. You mean at the end of the meeting?

    9 Q. Yes.

    10 A. Yes, we talked.

    11 Q. What did you talk about?

    12 A. I can't remember, really. It was a normal

    13 story. We didn't really discuss anything in particular

    14 there in order for that to remain in my mind so that I

    15 would remember that after so many years.

    16 Q. Well, Goran Hadzic was there too, wasn't he?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. He gave an interview to the media, didn't he?

    19 A. Yes, he gave an interview, I think for French

    20 television. I know the gentleman who interviewed him,

    21 his name is Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac. He was known to

    22 me from before, not personally, but I knew of him as a

    23 journalist.

    24 Q. Well, did you ascertain what Goran Hadzic had

    25 said to the media?

  166. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. It was of no interest to you?

    3 A. I think not.

    4 Q. Now, Mr. Dokmanovic didn't come from your

    5 area, did he? He came from the Vukovar area.

    6 A. As far as I know, yes, that is so.

    7 Q. Why did you choose to interview him in

    8 Vukovar?

    9 A. I think because he was the only person in

    10 that group from that area, you know. It wasn't

    11 interesting to me, and I think it would be

    12 unprofessional to ask Mr. Lazarevic or somebody else

    13 who came from Kladovo for their impressions because

    14 their impressions would be identical -- could only be

    15 identical to mine, to the things that I felt. So a

    16 different impression could be only from somebody who

    17 was a local, who was from there, and that could only

    18 come from Mr. Dokmanovic.

    19 Q. Now, after you left Vukovar, where did you

    20 go? Describe the route that you followed, if you would

    21 for me, once you left the centre of Vukovar?

    22 A. We came back the same way that we entered the

    23 city, and then on the way out, we passed the building

    24 of VELEPROMET again, and then, as I said, we took the

    25 same way back.

  167. 1 Q. Did you stop at VELEPROMET?

    2 A. On our return?

    3 Q. Yes.

    4 A. I think that we didn't. As far as I

    5 remember, we didn't.

    6 Q. Did the other vehicle stop?

    7 A. No. No. Because this vehicle was ahead of

    8 us. If they had stopped, then we would have had to

    9 stop too.

    10 Q. It never stopped at any stage, even

    11 momentarily, after you left the centre of Vukovar?

    12 A. As far as I remember, until the situation

    13 that I described when we caught up with the convoy,

    14 with the civilians, we did not stop.

    15 Q. Where was that?

    16 A. I don't know. I don't know the specific

    17 location because I'm not really -- I'm not from that

    18 region. But it was on the road, on the return from

    19 Vukovar towards Sidski Banovci, towards Backa Palanka;

    20 of course, on some road somewhere between

    21 Vukovar and this Orolik.

    22 Q. Now, when you reached Sidski Banovci, what

    23 happened there that night? What happened to the

    24 group? It split up, did it?

    25 A. I've already said that myself and

  168. 1 Mr. Jevtovic spent a very short time there, and then we

    2 left Sidski Banovci and that whole region. What

    3 happened then there, I don't know.

    4 Q. Did you understand that the rest of the

    5 people were going to stay there the night, or were they

    6 to travel later on?

    7 A. I can't reply to that at this moment, really.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    10 MR. FILA: I forgot a question. It's not

    11 very important, but still ...

    12 Re-examined by Mr. Fila.

    13 Q. Did you receive this videotape that we showed

    14 you just now? From whom did you get it and when and do

    15 you still have it?

    16 A. Yes, I received a copy of this videotape a

    17 few days or maybe a few weeks after our stay in

    18 Vukovar. I received it by mail from Mr. Lazarevic.

    19 Q. Do you have it at home?

    20 A. Yes, I do have that tape at home.

    21 Q. So if the court requested it, would you be

    22 able to submit it?

    23 A. Yes, I already talked to the gentleman that I

    24 spoke to in Belgrade that I was willing to give that

    25 tape, if necessary, but nobody said that I needed to

  169. 1 bring it with me here.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Tomasevic, I wonder

    3 whether you could help us by answering two questions?

    4 First of all, did you make any use of the

    5 statement given to you by Mr. Dokmanovic? You

    6 remember, you said you interviewed him. Did you use

    7 it, this interview, for an article, a feature from the

    8 war zone, for your own notes? Did you keep the tape?

    9 A. No, unfortunately, I didn't keep that tape

    10 for the simple reason because it's what we call

    11 "working tape." It's a tape that you keep and you use

    12 it and then you rewind it and you record over it. So

    13 the practice, at least in the newsroom where I work,

    14 that if something is estimated as important, then you

    15 would archive it on a different tape. So there is a

    16 special way to archive everything. I didn't really

    17 give any importance to that statement, so then I

    18 re-recorded that statement, I didn't keep it or the

    19 tape.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: In addition, you didn't use

    21 that tape or the statement, the actual statement made

    22 by Mr. Dokmanovic, for an article feature? I wonder

    23 whether you did use it.

    24 A. No. No, I did not use that statement. To my

    25 regret, I didn't write that text that I wanted to write

  170. 1 when I returned about my visit to Vukovar. When I came

    2 back to the place where I live and work, I tried

    3 several nights to describe what I lived through in

    4 Vukovar, what I experienced in Vukovar, but

    5 unfortunately, I didn't have the strength, the

    6 concentration, or the power to put everything that I

    7 saw there into a newspaper article. And then for the

    8 same reason, the local newspaper that I worked for at

    9 that time, I published only a photo report about

    10 Vukovar.

    11 The next day, on my return from Vukovar, I

    12 knew that if I wanted to write this article, I would

    13 need photographs, so for that reason, I went to the

    14 newsroom of the Politika publishing house where I used

    15 to work for a few years as a journalist and I knew a

    16 lot of people there, some colleagues from my university

    17 worked there, and there are a lot of photo journalists

    18 there. I know one of them who I met there. So he took

    19 photographs for Politika in the Vukovar region. I took

    20 several photographs, and I wanted to publish them

    21 together with the text that I wanted to write, but

    22 since I didn't find a way to write this text, I -- on

    23 half a page of newspaper that I worked for, I just

    24 published those photographs under the headline

    25 "Vukovar" without any other comment or without a

  171. 1 signature, and that is the only trace of my visit to

    2 Vukovar which remains in the media.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. My second and

    4 last question is about what you said in your written

    5 statement. At one point, you saw quite a few dead

    6 bodies. This was before you asked Mr. Dokmanovic to

    7 give you an interview, to make a statement. And you

    8 saw quite a few dead bodies and you said "which were

    9 slaughtered and their eyes were forcefully taken out.

    10 All of us went out of the car and we saw the scene."

    11 Probably these were corpses or bodies other than the

    12 ones we saw on the videotape.

    13 I wonder whether at that stage you could

    14 realise whether or not these were bodies of military

    15 personnel or civilians, the corpses you saw and which

    16 struck you?

    17 A. I'm sorry, sir, but I have to intervene.

    18 Perhaps this statement was not precise enough. When I

    19 was describing the number of people -- I mean, it was

    20 just what was registered on the tape. I was just

    21 saying that I see what the tape is recording, but I

    22 don't know -- I didn't know then and I don't know now

    23 what kind of people they were. It was a terrible

    24 sight, at least for me personally. It was the first

    25 time in my life that I had seen a killed person, a

  172. 1 person with their throat slit, with their skulls

    2 broken, with their eyes -- they were forcefully taken

    3 out. So there were several corpses there in the

    4 street.

    5 It is not that we felt any need to identify

    6 the corpses or anything. I was astounded by what I

    7 saw. And at that point in time, I didn't have any

    8 reason to ascertain what kind of corpses these were and

    9 who these people were, you know, if you understand what

    10 I'm saying.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: So at that stage you didn't

    12 see whether -- or identify the bodies. You were unable

    13 to say whether they were military people or civilians

    14 or Serbs or Croats; just dead bodies.

    15 A. If I remember well, and we can see the tape

    16 once again, but I think that they were civilians, and

    17 even on a living person -- you know, in our country,

    18 they say -- it doesn't say on your forehead what

    19 nationality you belong in, and least of all if a person

    20 is dead.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. So I assume

    22 there's no objection to the witness being released?

    23 Mr. Tomasevic, thank you so much for coming

    24 here to give evidence in court. You may now be

    25 released. Thank you.

  173. 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    2 (Witness stands down)

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: I will now turn to Mr. Fila

    4 and ask him whether he has skipped the third witness --

    5 MR. FILA: Your Honour, because the

    6 cross-examination of the Prosecutor is so long, I

    7 thought that we wouldn't have enough time for the other

    8 witness. Lazarevic is a longer witness, so I thought

    9 that we would finish today with three witnesses

    10 altogether because otherwise it would have been two and

    11 a half witnesses, so to speak.

    12 So perhaps I can start with Lazarevic in

    13 these ten minutes, if you wish?

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: No, no, no. Actually, I

    15 think it was a good idea. So I meant to ask you

    16 whether you are going to call tomorrow Lazarevic.

    17 MR. FILA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Your Honour,

    18 it's only Lazarevic and another one that are a bit

    19 longer, for your information, really, so that you would

    20 know what lies in store. And the remaining four will

    21 only take about 15 minutes or so. I don't believe that

    22 Mr. Niemann will question them much longer either.

    23 Thank you.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. So we

    25 now can take our recess, and we will reconvene tomorrow

  174. 1 at 9.00 a.m. sharp.

    2 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    3 4.49 p.m. until 19 May, 1998, at

    4 9.00 a.m.