1. 1 Wednesday, 24th June 1998

    2 (The accused entered court)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

    4 (Open session)

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning. Could the

    6 registrar please read the case number?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    8 Case number IT-95-13a-T. The Prosecutor versus Slavko

    9 Dokmanovic.

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I assume the

    11 appearances are as -- no, today we should have the

    12 appearances probably. For the Prosecution?

    13 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, my name

    14 is Mr. Niemann, and I appear with my colleagues,

    15 Mr. Waespi and Mr. Vos.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: For the Defence?

    17 MR. FILA: Your Honours, I'm Toma Fila. With

    18 me are Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Kostic, Defence team of

    19 Mr. Dokmanovic.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Dokmanovic,

    21 can you hear me? Thank you. Before we start, let me

    22 report to you that in probably one hour, or in a few

    23 minutes, we will receive a copy of the reports from the

    24 medical officer and from the commanding officer of the

    25 detention unit about Mr. Dokmanovic. It will be, of

  2. 1 course, provided to both parties and the court.

    2 After hearing the witnesses, I suggest that

    3 if we have time, we should go through the list of

    4 exhibits prepared by the court deputy, Mr. Bos, to

    5 discuss the various matters he rightly raised in his

    6 letter of the 12th of June.

    7 One final point. I suggest that tomorrow,

    8 when we resume our hearings, we should move to

    9 Courtroom 1, which is available, because I think it is

    10 quite appropriate for the closing statements of the

    11 parties to be held in a bigger courtroom. I suggest

    12 that we start tomorrow, if it is agreeable to both

    13 parties, at 9.00 instead of 9.30.

    14 All right. Any comments or suggestions or

    15 any housekeeping matters? So we can start with the

    16 first witness for the Prosecution.

    17 MR. WAESPI: Is it closed session already?

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: I understand you would like

    19 to go into a closed session.

    20 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I had asked the registrar

    21 and also the Defence whether it's possible, and if Your

    22 Honours would agree with that, because it is a UN

    23 person, and New York had only agreed to him testifying

    24 under very restrictive provisions as to his anonymity.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: All right. I see the Defence

  3. 1 counsel is not objecting to your request, so we are

    2 going into closed session. It is Witness S?

    3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Witness S, Your Honours.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    5 (Closed session)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  4. 1












    13 Pages 3975 to 3997 redacted - in closed session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

    15 (Open session)

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, were you able to

    17 find your witness?

    18 MR. FILA: Somewhere there to the left.

    19 MR. WAESPI: Just a brief summing up of

    20 Witness S, I would like to formally tender this

    21 statement. I think it was just marked.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Oh, I see. Actually, yes, I

    23 thought it had been tendered already because I saw

    24 Mr. Fila hinting that he -- nodding that he had no

    25 objection.

  2. 1 MR. WAESPI: Yes, but his nodding wasn't

    2 registered in the record.


    4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. I think,

    6 Mr. Fila, that we don't have any document, a statement

    7 from, of course, the present witness.

    8 (The witness entered court)

    9 MR. FILA: He is an investigator from my

    10 team, and I have quite a few of his reports. And you

    11 can accept them and, on the other hand, you don't have

    12 to accept them, but it's a good thing for you to see

    13 them any way.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Good morning.

    15 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Could you please make the

    17 solemn declaration?

    18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    19 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    20 truth.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. You may be

    22 seated. Mr. Fila?


    24 Examined by Mr. Fila:

    25 Q. Mr. Vasic, are you an investigator of my

  3. 1 Defence team?

    2 A. Yes, I'm the investigator of the Defence team

    3 in the Slavko Dokmanovic case.

    4 Q. I shall be showing you a few documents now,

    5 and you are going to tell me what it's about.

    6 MR. FILA: Could the usher please show him

    7 the documents?

    8 Q. Could you please tell us what this is, the

    9 documents that we're going to show you?

    10 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D153,

    11 and the English translation D153A.

    12 MR. FILA:

    13 Q. Are these actually two reports that you

    14 submitted to me at my request?

    15 A. Yes, these are two reports.

    16 Q. Could you please tell me which the first one

    17 is and what the first one is about?

    18 A. It concerns this case, but I see that in one

    19 of the reports here, a page is missing or at least I

    20 didn't get a copy.

    21 Q. It's some kind of mistake. We'll see what it

    22 is all about.

    23 A. It is the report that speaks about the video

    24 cassettes that I collected and the conversation with

    25 Mr. Novakovic.

  4. 1 Q. Only one was translated, but you will also

    2 mention the other, won't you? Those are the statements

    3 in the Serbian language.

    4 MR. FILA: Mr. Usher, could you please come

    5 over again?

    6 Q. Could you please tell us what this is?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D154

    8 and the English translation D154A.

    9 MR. FILA: And then the next one, please.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D155,

    11 the English translation D155A.

    12 MR. FILA:

    13 Q. Obviously your report is related to this

    14 other matter and hasn't been translated, Tomasevic

    15 Vukosav, this is -- Mr. Vasic, did you at my request,

    16 under my instructions, first talk to the witnesses that

    17 were already heard by this court, Mirko Dragisic and

    18 Vukosav Tomasevic, and then you went to see them and

    19 you took from both of them respectively copies of the

    20 video cassette that they got from Mr. Lazarevic?

    21 A. Yes, after the Prosecutor denied the

    22 authenticity of the tape and the segment of the tape

    23 that is registered at 15.42, under the instructions of

    24 Mr. Dokmanovic's Defence attorney, I got in touch with

    25 these witnesses, namely, Mr. Mirko Dragisic and

  5. 1 Mr. Vukosav Tomasevic, who had testified before this

    2 court, and then I went to see them. And in their

    3 statements, they said that they each had a copy of the

    4 tape that has been registered as D2 here.

    5 Q. When did they receive these copies of this

    6 videotape and from whom?

    7 A. They got these copies in 1991 from

    8 Mr. Nebojsa Lazarevic who was also a witness before

    9 this court.

    10 Q. Did they confirm this to you under oath?

    11 A. They did, and this is contained in their

    12 signed statements underlining that they were under the

    13 oath, the solemn oath, that they took before this Trial

    14 Chamber.

    15 Q. I now ask you to look at these two video

    16 cassettes, and could you please mark which one you got

    17 from whom?

    18 MR. FILA: Could this also be admitted into

    19 evidence as two different Defence exhibits, please?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The videotapes are marked

    21 D156 and D157.

    22 MR. FILA:

    23 Q. You will tell us about D156, who it belongs

    24 to and who gave it to you.

    25 A. D156, video cassette D156, I received from

  6. 1 Mr. Tomasevic, and that is the cassette that he got, as

    2 he said, in 1991. And he confirmed that on it is a

    3 recording which is identical to the one that he

    4 obtained on that day and that he gave to me.

    5 Q. And the other cassette?

    6 A. The other cassette, D157, was given to me by

    7 Mr. Mirko Dragisic also with the statement that he

    8 received this cassette in 1991 and that it is now

    9 identical to the tape that he got in 1991. That is the

    10 same tape.

    11 Q. And both are copies?

    12 A. Yes, both are the copies of the tape made by

    13 Mr. Novakovic which was made on the 20th of November,

    14 1991.

    15 Q. Nebojsa Lazarevic, you mean?

    16 A. Yes, yes, Nebojsa Lazarevic, sorry.

    17 MR. FILA: At this point in time, I wish to

    18 have this admitted into evidence or to play these tapes

    19 so that you could see that they are the same like D2.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, we haven't

    21 seen them so we object, because we haven't seen them.

    22 So we can't agree to something we haven't seen.

    23 MR. FILA: That's why I asked, yes. So I

    24 asked whether you want to have them played. If you

    25 want to have them played so that you could see them,

  7. 1 certainly we shall play them, please.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: I'm not sure that will

    3 necessarily remove our objection. I would like to see

    4 them. We may need to look at them overnight and just

    5 make sure that we are happy with them. Watching them

    6 on the television in the courtroom for the first time

    7 may not be sufficient for that purpose. I think the

    8 best course would be for us to uplift them and have a

    9 look at them overnight, rather than trouble the court

    10 with them now.

    11 I also have an obligation with the statements

    12 but I will raise those matters when they are sought to

    13 be tendered, Your Honours.

    14 MR. FILA: I'm sorry. I don't know if I

    15 understood this correctly. Mr. Niemann would want to

    16 take these tapes to have a look at them overnight and

    17 then to say tomorrow whether he objects to having them

    18 admitted or not? Fine, fine, that's fine. So let us

    19 just mark them for identification and then tomorrow

    20 we'll decide on that, okay?

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: So we will put it off until

    22 tomorrow morning when the Prosecution will let us

    23 know.

    24 MR. FILA: As regards to the witness

    25 statements and the reports, is it all right to have

  8. 1 this admitted into evidence today or do you want to

    2 take a look at all of this and then say tomorrow

    3 whether you agree to it or not?

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Again, Your Honours, this is

    6 the first time I have seen these. I know of no notion

    7 of the oath sort of extending beyond the Tribunal to

    8 someone who's spoken to at some subsequent stage. My

    9 concern about this is that the witnesses were here and

    10 available for cross-examination, Witness Q, and

    11 certainly all these questions could have been presented

    12 then, I would have thought.

    13 At this stage, tentatively, I'm not so

    14 concerned about the issue of the videotape. I would

    15 like to consider it overnight and then make a decision

    16 tomorrow morning as to whether we have any objection to

    17 the statement which merely says the videotape was given

    18 to them in 1991 and this is the tape that's now

    19 tendered. I don't think I have much difficulty with

    20 that, but I'm hoping that I can accommodate that and

    21 agree to the tender of this.

    22 But I certainly would object to the Witness Q

    23 statement. It goes into a whole range of other

    24 matters, and I don't believe that this is the effective

    25 way or proper way of doing it. I object to that, Your

  9. 1 Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    3 MR. FILA: With your permission, Your

    4 Honours, just a brief explanation. As regards to the

    5 existence of these tapes, when the witnesses were heard

    6 before this honourable court, they said that they

    7 received these tapes. And Nebojsa Lazarevic stated

    8 that he gave them copies so the question was tackled in

    9 cross-examination. However, the core of the matter now

    10 is that they did not have the tapes with them on that

    11 occasion, because it was not necessary for them to

    12 bring them in. And only on the 29th of May,

    13 Mr. Williamson, the Prosecutor, contested these tapes.

    14 It is only then that I instructed Mr. Vasic to take the

    15 tapes from the witnesses under oath. It would have

    16 been a different situation if the witnesses were to

    17 come again just to tell you, "Yes, that is the tape."

    18 So the matter of the tape was mentioned in

    19 their testimony, and it is contained there. That is

    20 one thing. Secondly, I have nothing against discussing

    21 this issue tomorrow.

    22 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I think this would be

    23 the best course of action, again, to put off until

    24 tomorrow the question of whether or not they may be

    25 tendered in evidence.

  10. 1 All right. I confirmed that we will then

    2 decide tomorrow morning, in light of any comments or

    3 objections from the Prosecution, about both the

    4 videotapes, the two videotapes, 156, 157, and the

    5 witness statements, D154 and D155. This will be

    6 decided tomorrow.

    7 Whereas for the report by the Defence team

    8 investigator marked as D153, the court considers that

    9 it can't be admitted into evidence, this is the report

    10 about Witness Q, for the reasons explained by the

    11 Prosecution. So it will be marked only for

    12 identification purposes.

    13 MR. FILA: It will just be admitted, yes,

    14 fine. What I wish to say, Your Honour, let me be quite

    15 clear: If the Prosecutor is against this, I will have

    16 to have these witnesses called back. I am going to

    17 have a delay and also going to incur immense expenses

    18 to have them brought in here and say, "Yes, this is my

    19 tape," and that is what they are going to say because

    20 these are their tapes. That is what I wish to say on

    21 that question.

    22 And now I kindly ask the usher to show

    23 another document to the investigator so that he could

    24 tell us what it's about.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I could just respond to

  11. 1 that, Your Honours. That is the reason why I am going

    2 to see if I can possibly accommodate those statements

    3 merely to get the videotapes in, as videotapes that

    4 they had at the time. So I just want to consider it,

    5 but I would try and do that, because I can understand

    6 it may necessitate having to call the witnesses, and I

    7 don't want to do that or cause that to happen, although

    8 that was the issue, Your Honour.

    9 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked

    11 D158.

    12 MR. FILA: Something else, Your Honour, in

    13 order to clarify matters for Mr. Niemann. The tapes

    14 I'm talking about are copies of the tape that is the

    15 original Defence Exhibit, so this is yet another

    16 generation, if that's what it's called.

    17 Q. Mr. Vasic, could you please tell us what this

    18 is about and why you took this statement from

    19 Mr. Novakovic who was already heard as a witness before

    20 this court?

    21 A. This statement was taken as a supplementary

    22 one from Mr. Novakovic after Mr. Curtis, the

    23 investigator for the Prosecution, was heard before this

    24 court. Because in his notes, he mentioned something

    25 that witness Novakovic did not say here before this

  12. 1 Trial Chamber, bearing in mind the fact that

    2 Mr. Novakovic, in his conversation with me, told me

    3 that while he was talking to Mr. Curtis he drank

    4 alcohol.

    5 I went under the instructions of the Defence

    6 attorney to discuss that particular matter with him,

    7 because this was a completely new set of circumstances

    8 in relation to what he had testified to before this

    9 court. And during our conversation, he told me that

    10 Mr. Curtis came to see him and that after walking into

    11 his office, he told the secretary to bring in a bottle

    12 of whiskey, and that he drank this whiskey while he was

    13 giving his statement.

    14 He also said that he was not informed that

    15 notes would be taken, and nobody asked him to read

    16 anything out or to sign it. And he thought that would

    17 be only natural because he, himself, says that he was

    18 under the influence of alcohol at that point in time.

    19 He also told me that after this conversation

    20 with Mr. Curtis and an interpreter from Macedonia, and

    21 also an investigating judge from Backa Palanka, he went

    22 to a restaurant near the bridge, because Mr. Curtis

    23 wanted him to go to the bridge, to see the bridge. So

    24 then they went to a restaurant and they all drank

    25 alcohol together. That is basically the content of his

  13. 1 statement.

    2 Q. Did you also talk to the secretary? Did she

    3 confirm that she brought the drinks in?

    4 A. I only discussed that particular matter with

    5 her, and she corroborated that, that she indeed did

    6 bring in the bottle of whiskey, and that when she came

    7 back, the bottle was empty.

    8 Q. Who drank that whiskey?

    9 A. She didn't know. And Mr. Novakovic, he told

    10 me that he was drinking alcohol, but he didn't say

    11 anything about Mr. Curtis.

    12 Q. The next thing I wish to ask you about,

    13 Mr. Vasic -- oh, yes. If there are no objections, I

    14 move that this be admitted into evidence as a Defence

    15 Exhibit.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann?

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honours, I wish to

    18 consider this matter and to consult with Investigator

    19 Curtis about the contents of it.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Niemann, it's a

    21 terribly peripheral issue, isn't it?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: It is, Your Honour. That is

    23 why I will endeavour to determine whether I will agree

    24 to it, Your Honours.

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Again, we will wait for your

  14. 1 consultation with Mr. Curtis --

    2 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: -- before deciding on this

    4 matter. All right.

    5 MR. FILA:

    6 Q. Mr. Vasic, for the purposes of the Defence,

    7 did you also go and talk to certain persons who were

    8 related to the event that occurred in Ovcara on the

    9 20th of November, 1991, in the evening?

    10 A. Since October 1997, at the request of the

    11 Defence attorney, I went out and tried to find persons

    12 who had some knowledge about the questions related to

    13 this case.

    14 Q. And you made a report about this?

    15 A. Yes, I made a report about it, yes.

    16 Q. And you gave it to me, and I handed it in.

    17 Could you please tell me, what does this report say?

    18 What did you talk about? To whom?

    19 A. In the report, I processed conversations with

    20 persons who did not want to make statements. In one

    21 case, a person did not even want to say his name and

    22 surname. I talked to a gentleman who is marked as

    23 Witness Q, and the Defence attorney told me that he is

    24 Witness Q, and in my papers, I have his full name and

    25 surname.

  15. 1 Q. Could you please take a look at a piece of

    2 paper, and I'm going to write down a name and surname,

    3 and you will tell me whether that is Witness Q or not.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D159

    5 under seal.

    6 A. Yes, that is the person concerned.

    7 MR. FILA: So it is that person. The first

    8 word written herein is the nickname of the person in

    9 question. I would like to have this marked as a

    10 Defence Exhibit for identification purposes and to

    11 confirm that it has been identified.

    12 Q. Can you please tell us, what did this person

    13 tell you in the course of that interview when the

    14 interview took place?

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, Your

    16 Honours. Your Honours, we have here a situation, as

    17 far as I understand, of a person who refused to

    18 testify, and the investigator goes and has a

    19 conversation with him and then seeks to come here and

    20 give evidence of the conversation. Your Honours, there

    21 is no opportunity to cross-examine, we don't know this

    22 person, and it's entirely objectionable, Your Honours.

    23 If the witness fails to come, there are many means

    24 which can be explored to get witnesses to testify

    25 before this Tribunal that doesn't involve them coming

  16. 1 to The Hague.

    2 MR. FILA: No, no, no. No, no, no, please,

    3 Your Honours, there's something wrong. Let me

    4 clarify. This is not the witness that has not

    5 testified here. We're talking about a witness that has

    6 testified here before the court. There has been a

    7 misunderstanding. This person testified as a Defence

    8 witness, that's the Witness Q. So the objection by

    9 Mr. Niemann concerns something completely different. I

    10 don't know what it concerns. The person whose name you

    11 read has testified before this court as Witness Q.

    12 This is the person we're talking about.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry, Your Honours. It

    14 has been pointed out that the name shown on the piece

    15 of paper would appear to be some sort of a nickname.

    16 That's why I didn't recognise it.

    17 MR. FILA: Yes, that's why I said --

    18 MR. NIEMANN: It doesn't affect my

    19 objection. It still stands in the sense that again we

    20 have a situation of a witness who apparently was here

    21 and could have testified to these matters.

    22 MR. FILA: That's correct.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: It doesn't assist, and it's

    24 inappropriate, in my submission, for the investigator

    25 to go out and have a subsequent conversation and then

  17. 1 attempt to relate what was the content of that

    2 investigation.

    3 I mean, if Mr. Fila is prepared to give me a

    4 transcript of what was said in it, in a similar vein to

    5 the issue raised by Judge May, it may be a matter of

    6 such little significance that to us it doesn't matter.

    7 So as to avoid any delay in the proceedings or matters

    8 like that, we may agree to it being admitted, if that's

    9 what the Defence feels important. But it would only be

    10 on that basis. It wouldn't be on the basis that, in my

    11 submission, it is admissible.

    12 MR. FILA: Your Honours, I am not clear here

    13 again. There has been a misunderstanding. First of

    14 all, I submitted the report. You have it in front of

    15 you. I did that.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Mr. Niemann. We have

    17 received D153A.

    18 MR. FILA: Then it's in there. We're talking

    19 about the witness who testified here, he was questioned

    20 here, just as Mr. Curtis talked to Witness Novakovic.

    21 If this is to be a fair trial, my investigator has the

    22 right to talk to a Defence witness, and he talked

    23 before that with him with their permission.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours have ruled the

    25 report inadmissible, and now it's sought to get the

  18. 1 material and the evidence into evidence by means of

    2 this witness testifying. I mean, if Your Honours have

    3 ruled the report inadmissible, then surely this witness

    4 is not to be permitted to testify as to those matters.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: We have decided to confirm

    6 our ruling that this statement D153A, the English

    7 version, should not be admitted into evidence for the

    8 reasons stated before. However, that for reasons of

    9 fairness, the witness should be allowed to be examined

    10 and cross-examined on the substance of this statement,

    11 and, of course, it will be for the court then to decide

    12 what probative value to attach to his testimony.

    13 So therefore, Mr. Fila, you may proceed.

    14 MR. FILA: Before I continue, one other

    15 matter. Witness Q was asked the question, I asked him

    16 the question, and you will find in his statement that

    17 he confirmed that he had talked to the investigator,

    18 that he talked to the Defence team. You have this in

    19 Witness Q's statement, and that's the reason why I

    20 brought here this witness, the investigator, with whom

    21 Witness Q confirms that he talked to him.

    22 Q. Please, Mr. Vasic, can you tell us, what did

    23 you talk about and what did he tell you?

    24 A. First, I have to say that I talked with

    25 Witness Q on the 1st of October, 1997, so when he was

  19. 1 not a witness yet, and at the very beginning of the

    2 conversation, he told me that he did not wish to

    3 testify, to be a Defence witness, since he wanted to

    4 live in Vukovar in Republic of Croatia and that that

    5 would cause him problems, and if he decided to testify,

    6 he would prefer to testify as a Prosecution witness.

    7 Then he told me briefly how he happened to

    8 find himself in the area caught up in war. I don't

    9 know whether the Defence is interested in that.

    10 Q. Is it any different from what he testified to

    11 before the court?

    12 A. Well, afterwards, I saw the statement that he

    13 gave to the Prosecutor and his testimony, the

    14 transcript of his testimony, and what he told me does

    15 not differ from what he said to the Prosecutor and

    16 before this court.

    17 Q. Are there any differences?

    18 A. Well, there is a difference. I think only in

    19 his formulations, in the wording, and at one point,

    20 there is a difference in where he found Witness

    21 Berghoffer and Witness Perkan. He did not say the full

    22 name of that person. As to where he found

    23 Mr. Berghoffer, he said that he does not remember

    24 whether it was on the bus or at the route, at the

    25 strip, but he said that it was impossible to do that in

  20. 1 the hangar because nobody could take anyone out of the

    2 hangar. He gave me an illustration. He said that he

    3 had singled some people out, a group of people out. He

    4 asked whether he could do that. He asked Miroljub

    5 Vujovic whether he could do that, and he said yes, and

    6 later on he presumed that these people were killed. So

    7 that's one of the differences.

    8 Another difference concerns Mr. Dokmanovic.

    9 When I asked him whether he saw Mr. Dokmanovic on the

    10 20th of November when he was at Ovcara, he said that

    11 Mr. Dokmanovic was not there, at least not while this

    12 witness was there, and he said that he would have seen

    13 him had he been there because he knew him as a former

    14 President of the Municipal Assembly in Vukovar and that

    15 it was his opinion that Mr. Dokmanovic was not allowed

    16 to go there, he would not dare to go there, because he

    17 was considered as a traitor by extremist Serbs, and

    18 that even the witness thought him a traitor, and that

    19 he probably would have been killed had he appeared at

    20 Ovcara.

    21 I then asked Witness Q why he thought

    22 Dokmanovic to be a traitor, and he told me that it was

    23 because he handed Vukovar over to the Croats and that

    24 allegedly, on the 2nd of May, after the attack on

    25 Borovo Selo, he called in the army and thus saved those

  21. 1 Croats who were in a bad situation there.

    2 Q. The other persons that you talked to refused

    3 to testify, so we cannot discuss them. Only if maybe

    4 the Prosecutor will be interested to know who these

    5 persons are, maybe you can then assist him.

    6 I would now like the Trial Chamber to allow

    7 me to show the witness a document that he has brought

    8 in. This has not been translated. But he will read a

    9 few important sentences and that will make it possible

    10 for you to understand what this is all about until the

    11 full translation is available.

    12 Can you please tell us, where did you get

    13 this document and tell us what this is all about.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D160.

    15 MR. FILA:

    16 Q. Will you please read? That's the decision of

    17 which court? What is this about?

    18 A. This is a decision of the County Court in

    19 Osijek, and this is a decision to the effect that the

    20 sentence of imprisonment pursuant to the final judgement

    21 of the County Court in Osijek, number was mentioned, of

    22 July 1992, this sentence was quashed. The accused,

    23 Borislav Bugunovic, Mladen Hadzic, Goran Hadzic --

    24 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow

    25 down? I apologise.

  22. 1 A. Vitomir Devetak, Dragan Sabljakovic, Slavko

    2 Dokmanovic, Vojislav Susa, Mladen Jovic, Ilija

    3 Petrovic, Milan Knezevic, Borivoj Milinkovic, Paji

    4 Medic, Bogdan Vorkapic, Caslav Ocic, Miomir Crnogorac,

    5 Stevi Bogic, Ilija Koncarevic, Dordu Latas, Caslav

    6 Niksic, and Radmil Bjelica.

    7 Q. Are these mostly the members of the

    8 government?

    9 A. I think that's the full cabinet of the

    10 District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

    11 Q. That's the government in which Slavko

    12 Dokmanovic was the Minister of Agriculture?

    13 A. Yes, precisely.

    14 Q. So the Croatian court does not prosecute him

    15 for anything?

    16 A. Yes, that's right. This document I received

    17 while I was in Vukovar. In June, I got it from a

    18 colleague of mine, Vojislav Ore, who is also an

    19 investigator.

    20 MR. FILA: I would like to have this document

    21 admitted as a Defence Exhibit, and the translation will

    22 be admitted once it's finished. What number is this?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: D160.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Well, Your Honour, I have to

    25 object a document that's not translated, I can't submit

  23. 1 comment on it, but I also, based on what's been said

    2 about the document, wonder what its relevance is. But

    3 until I've read it, I can't comment any further, Your

    4 Honours, on it, other than object to it.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, Mr. Fila?

    6 MR. FILA: No, this is a judgement. Maybe

    7 there has been a misunderstanding. This is a final

    8 judgement of the court whereby the sentence of

    9 imprisonment, ten years' imprisonment, against Slavko

    10 Dokmanovic has been quashed, and there are no

    11 proceedings being conducted against him before Croatian

    12 courts, so this is a final judgement. I can't see how a

    13 final judgement of a court cannot be admissible. There

    14 is a signature there, there is the stamp of the --

    15 that's the County Court. And by this judgement, the

    16 whole government of the Serbian district and Slavko

    17 Dokmanovic have been amnestied, pardoned.

    18 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Fila, the Prosecutor is

    19 right in saying that we can't admit into evidence a

    20 document which is not either in English or in French,

    21 in one of the two working languages, official

    22 languages, of the Tribunal.

    23 MR. FILA: All right. Then we will wait.

    24 You said that I can submit, with the approval of the

    25 court, documents in the original language. I did not

  24. 1 have enough time to have it translated because

    2 Mr. Vasic arrived yesterday. When the translation

    3 service finishes the translation, then it's okay. This

    4 is a document -- this does not testify to the guilt of

    5 Mr. Dokmanovic, but it more goes to the sentencing

    6 procedure. It shows what his status in Croatia is.

    7 And you said in your brief that I can submit such

    8 documents in the original language, and that's

    9 Croatian. Once it's translated --

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: The registry may provide the

    11 translation by tomorrow morning because we can then

    12 again discuss this document tomorrow morning.

    13 MR. FILA: It's a very brief document.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: They are mostly names.

    15 Mr. Bos, do you think we can?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I'll bring it to the

    17 translation unit right now, and then hopefully we will

    18 have a translation tomorrow.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    20 MR. FILA: And finally, the last document I

    21 wish to tender is in English. This hasn't been

    22 translated into Serbian, but that doesn't matter.

    23 Q. Can you please tell us, what is it that you

    24 brought with you from Vukovar?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked D161.

  25. 1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone is not on.

    2 MR. FILA: I could give you this document in

    3 the original size, but, please, give me back one of the

    4 smaller copies then.

    5 Q. Did you give this to me?

    6 A. Yes. It's an article from the Washington

    7 Post dated 1993.

    8 Q. How is Mr. Dokmanovic addressed here?

    9 A. As a former mayor.

    10 MR. FILA: I would like to have this document

    11 admitted into evidence.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: I find it surprising, Your

    13 Honour, that Mr. Fila would seek to tender newspaper

    14 articles bearing in mind the fate of a newspaper

    15 article that I sought to tender at one stage and Your

    16 Honours ruled to be inadmissible.

    17 MR. FILA: It's an article published in the

    18 newspapers. It's again important for what

    19 Mr. Dokmanovic said in 1993. I saw a lot of such

    20 exhibits from the Prosecutor, interviews on tape.

    21 That's the same thing. That's the Washington Post

    22 dated 1993, so it could not have been in anyone else's

    23 hands, and he is described as the former mayor of

    24 Vukovar. It can be an exhibit that will go to the

    25 sentencing or whatever. We had several newspaper

  26. 1 articles admitted into evidence whose substance was not

    2 contested. I think that it should be admitted into

    3 evidence because it speaks to the personality of

    4 Mr. Dokmanovic, and that's very important.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Well, the document that I

    6 sought to tender did exactly the same thing, Your

    7 Honour.

    8 JUDGE CASSESE: I agree with you. Of course,

    9 we consider that newspaper articles normally are not

    10 reliable because they can't reflect accurately the

    11 reality, but I wonder, Mr. Niemann, whether, for -- if

    12 it is admitted only for sentencing purposes, you would

    13 still object?

    14 MR. FILA: That's what I want it.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: That was the basis on which I

    16 sought to tender mine, Your Honours, partly for that

    17 reason, I must admit.

    18 MR. FILA: Only for sentencing purposes. Let

    19 me make this clear.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: We have decided to admit it

    21 into evidence and then --

    22 MR. FILA: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

    23 further questions.

    24 JUDGE CASSESE: This will be D161. All

    25 right. Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

  27. 1 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

    2 Q. Mr. Vasic, what time of the day was it when

    3 you saw Witness Q?

    4 A. It was in the afternoon. I can't recall the

    5 exact time, but it was in the afternoon, around 3.00

    6 p.m.

    7 Q. Where in the hotel did you conduct the

    8 interview with him?

    9 A. I talked to him in the restaurant of the

    10 hotel located -- the restaurant is on the first floor

    11 just as you climb the stairs.

    12 Q. Was there anyone else present with you during

    13 the course of the interview?

    14 A. Mr. Vladimir Petrovic was also present during

    15 the conversation.

    16 Q. Who asked the witness questions? Was it you

    17 or you and Mr. Petrovic?

    18 A. I mostly asked the questions of the witness,

    19 as far as I can remember. Whether Mr. Petrovic asked

    20 any questions, well, it's possible, but I can't tell

    21 you that with any certainty.

    22 Q. Did you take notes of the interview?

    23 A. Yes, I took notes.

    24 Q. Were they hand-written notes?

    25 A. Yes, hand-written.

  28. 1 Q. Do you now have those notes?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Will you produce them for us, please?

    4 A. They're here.

    5 Q. Perhaps they could be handed with the

    6 assistance of the usher who doesn't seem to be here.

    7 MR. FILA: If you allow me, the notes

    8 regarding this conversation or the notes in their

    9 entirety? Because several people were interviewed on

    10 that day.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: I just want to see the notes

    12 that he made of the interview.

    13 JUDGE CASSESE: The interview.

    14 MR. FILA: All right.

    15 MR. NIEMANN:

    16 Q. Now, I take it these notes are in the Serbian

    17 language, are they?

    18 A. Yes, I interviewed this witness in the

    19 Serbian language.

    20 Q. All of the notes are taken down by yourself,

    21 are they?

    22 A. As you can see, the handwriting is the same

    23 throughout, so I took all those notes.

    24 Q. Well, I couldn't see that because there is

    25 some handwriting in blue ink on the last page which

  29. 1 looks like a list of names. It may be the same

    2 handwriting, but it's not clear.

    3 A. You're reading the back side of this

    4 statement which relates to a list of witnesses and

    5 telephone numbers which has nothing to do with my

    6 testimony, and you're not interested in this. And I

    7 think it's not really fair that you should read this.

    8 However, let me clarify in relation to your

    9 remark. This was written down in a ball-point pen. You

    10 can check whether the handwriting is the same. You

    11 have handwriting experts for that, but this is all in

    12 my handwriting.

    13 Q. What questions did you actually put to

    14 Witness Q? What did you say to him? And try, if you

    15 would, to be as precise as possible in advising us of

    16 the questions you asked according to the way you asked

    17 them, rather than just as a general summation of what

    18 was said.

    19 A. Well, Mr. Niemann, you probably are aware

    20 that I cannot give you the precise wording of the

    21 questions because a long time has passed for me to be

    22 able to remember precisely what I asked. I think that

    23 no one here in this courtroom would be able to do

    24 that.

    25 I have to tell you one thing: Before

  30. 1 interviewing Witness Q, I did not have a lot of

    2 information or an idea of what really happened on the

    3 20th of November, 1991. So I just initiated the

    4 discussion, and then he, Witness Q, told me what he had

    5 to tell me. I did not have enough information to ask

    6 any questions of him before he told me his story. The

    7 only thing that I did ask is, after his story, I asked

    8 him concrete questions about Slavko Dokmanovic, whether

    9 he was there or not.

    10 Q. This was on the 1st of October, 1997? I need

    11 to clarify that.

    12 A. Yes, it was on the 1st of October, 1997.

    13 Q. So it's not information that was given to you

    14 after the Prosecution led any rebuttal evidence. This

    15 is information that was given to you before, as far

    16 back as 1997?

    17 A. Since the 1st of October, 1997, I have not

    18 seen Witness Q.

    19 Q. Did you tell Mr. Fila about what Witness Q

    20 had told you?

    21 A. Yes, naturally, I told Mr. Fila what Witness

    22 Q had told me after the interview. That's the reason

    23 why Mr. Fila asked the questions that he did in the

    24 course of these proceedings.

    25 Q. Did you ever make any attempt to contact

  31. 1 Witness Q after he had testified in the proceedings to

    2 ask him why he had testified the way he did?

    3 A. Mr. Niemann, from my report, which has not

    4 been admitted here, it is quite clear that, during the

    5 first interview, Witness Q told me that he did not wish

    6 to testify as a Defence witness. So any further

    7 attempts to contact this witness would be in vain, so

    8 that's the reason why I did not contact him.

    9 Q. Didn't you find it surprising that Witness Q

    10 didn't testify to these matters when he came to the --

    11 to all of these matters when he came to The Hague?

    12 A. I don't know in which sense. What do you

    13 mean, "surprising"? I simply talked to the witness and

    14 took down what he told me, and I did not enter into any

    15 discussions as to what he would be testifying about or

    16 not. But when I saw his statements in his statement

    17 given to the Prosecutor, he more or less repeated what

    18 he had told me. Why he repeated that or did not repeat

    19 that in front of the court, I would not like to enter

    20 into that. That is for the Trial Chamber and the

    21 parties to discuss. What he told me was not different

    22 to any considerable extent than what he told the

    23 Prosecutor.

    24 Q. You say that he failed to disclose to the

    25 Prosecutor and the Prosecutor's investigator and to the

  32. 1 Trial Chamber certain details about Slavko Dokmanovic

    2 and they were simply omitted -- although it was simply

    3 omitted from the statement. Now, I'm saying, isn't

    4 that surprising? Wasn't that surprising to you as the

    5 investigator that that had happened?

    6 A. I did not say that he did not give the

    7 details concerning Slavko Dokmanovic. On the contrary,

    8 I said that he did even here before the court when he

    9 testified, but he did not present them in the same form

    10 in which he gave them to me, that information. Witness

    11 Q here stated that he did not see Mr. Dokmanovic on

    12 that day at Ovcara, and he had told me that he had not

    13 seen him there. Of course, while Witness Q was there,

    14 as you know, according to his statement, he went back

    15 to Ovcara three times. He was at Ovcara three times,

    16 so he went back twice.

    17 Q. But that's the point, isn't it, that you knew

    18 that he had said to you that he had gone back twice on

    19 previous occasions? Isn't that the difference? Or

    20 perhaps you might be able to help me --

    21 A. I never claimed that that was the

    22 difference. This is in my report. That's what he told

    23 me too. The only difference is in the wording. He

    24 said that he did not see Mr. Dokmanovic on that day and

    25 he had told me that he had not been there. And had he

  33. 1 been there, he would have been killed because Serbian

    2 extremists thought him to be a traitor. I don't see a

    3 difference, the difference that you're talking about.

    4 Q. Now, when he told you this, that he

    5 considered that Mr. Dokmanovic wouldn't have been there

    6 because he was a traitor and would have been killed,

    7 did you ask him why it was that this view of him was

    8 held? Did you go into that?

    9 A. I asked him, as I have already stated before

    10 the court, why did he think Mr. Dokmanovic to be a

    11 traitor. And he told me, to repeat what I have already

    12 said, for two reasons: One is that he handed Vukovar

    13 over to Croats; and the other was that allegedly after

    14 the 2nd of May, after the conflict in Borovo Selo, he

    15 called in the army units and by doing that, he somehow

    16 saved the Croats.

    17 Q. Did he tell you who he considered -- did he

    18 tell you which Serbs it was that considered him to be a

    19 traitor? Did he give you any names?

    20 A. He told me that these were extremist Serbs.

    21 I assume that these would be those Serbs who were

    22 members of the TO and volunteers, as he said, and who

    23 were at Ovcara on that day.

    24 Q. That's merely an assumption on your part,

    25 though. You don't know for sure that's what he was

  34. 1 referring to, those are the people he was referring to

    2 when he said that?

    3 A. He did not tell me that precisely, so you're

    4 right. This is my assumption. He merely spoke about

    5 extremist Serbs. I should not be testifying about

    6 assumptions, but only about things that I have heard.

    7 But I have to say that he did tell me that Dokmanovic

    8 would have been killed had he come to Ovcara. So you

    9 can make your own conclusions, what context this

    10 sentence was made.

    11 Q. Did Mr. Petrovic ask him any questions that

    12 you can remember?

    13 A. I can't remember really. I allow that it's

    14 possible but I'm not sure.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    16 Honour.

    17 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    18 MR. FILA: With Mr. Niemann's permission, I

    19 could ask one question.

    20 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

    21 Q. Whether Witness Q mentioned whom he saw at

    22 Ovcara?

    23 A. Yes, he did.

    24 MR. FILA: But first let me check whether

    25 Mr. Niemann agrees with that question. If he objects,

  35. 1 then I will not ask this question.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Mr. Niemann, do you object?

    3 MR. NIEMANN: No.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    5 MR. FILA:

    6 Q. Okay, go ahead and answer, because these are

    7 those people who refused to testify. You will hear now

    8 why they refused to testify.

    9 A. May I answer, Your Honours?

    10 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    11 A. Yes, during our conversation, he did mention

    12 some persons who were there and whom he saw. He

    13 mentioned Miroljub Vujovic, Stanko Vujanovic, Ivica

    14 Husnik. He mentioned also -- well, it's a problem

    15 because my notes are with the Prosecutor so I can't

    16 remember all those names. Jankovic; he mentioned,

    17 furthermore, Toma Cigan, Cetin (phoen) and several

    18 other names. I really can't remember. After all those

    19 years, I can't remember those names. I've got my notes

    20 and the Prosecutor has my notes.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Maybe the Prosecutor could be

    22 so kind to hand the notes to the witness.

    23 MR. FILA:

    24 Q. Did you later on talk to these people and did

    25 they tell you what happened there and why they refused

  36. 1 to testify?

    2 A. May I answer this question, Your Honours?

    3 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, please.

    4 A. After that, I met some of these people. None

    5 of them, naturally, wanted to give me a statement.

    6 They claimed that they did not want to do so because

    7 they feared criminal prosecution, not all of them.

    8 When I talked to Mr. Vujovic, he refused to tell me

    9 anything, anything specific about Ovcara. And he also

    10 didn't want to tell me why he refused to talk to me

    11 about that.

    12 When I talked to Mr. Husnik, he quoted the

    13 reason that I just stated as the reason why he refused

    14 to give me a statement. He was there at the day when

    15 Witness Q claims that he was there. I don't know

    16 whether it would be necessary for the court for me to

    17 give you the substance of our discussions, since this

    18 person was not here and he did not testify. He is not

    19 a witness.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: No, it's not necessary.

    21 Any further questions?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Might I just have the notes

    23 back again, Your Honours? I wish to have them read to

    24 me in the English language so that I can understand

    25 them, Your Honours.

  37. 1 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes. I wonder whether copies

    2 could be made because this is an exhibit.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: I can uplift them from the

    4 registrar if necessary.

    5 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, all right.

    6 MR. FILA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I forgot

    7 to ask the witness about an entire segment. So with

    8 your permission, it's not too long, can I ask him now?

    9 I'm sorry. I shall really try to be short.

    10 Q. Did you go to Vukovar --

    11 MR. FILA: I asked for your permission

    12 because there's no point not having this recorded in

    13 the transcript.

    14 Q. Did you go to Vukovar, according to my

    15 instructions, to see the places marked by Mr. Dzuro as

    16 the probable places that were filmed at 15.42?

    17 A. Yes, I went to Vukovar and Negoslavci at the

    18 request of the Defence attorney. And I wish to thank

    19 this honourable court for the permission they gave me,

    20 because, had it not been for that, I wouldn't have

    21 received a visa from the Croatian authorities.

    22 I stayed in Vukovar, and I was at the place

    23 that the Prosecutor stipulated as the place where the

    24 15.42 recording is on the D2 tape. So that is the

    25 house for which the Prosecutor claims is in Vukovar.

  38. 1 After that, I went through the entire area of

    2 Negoslavci, but because of the lush greenery in the

    3 month of June just before summer starts, I did not

    4 manage to reliably ascertain what is the exact place

    5 that is depicted on the videotape at 15.42.

    6 But you will agree with me that one cannot

    7 preclude the possibility of what Mr. Dzuro said.

    8 Certainly that possibility cannot be precluded, that

    9 that place is precisely the one that was marked by

    10 Mr. Dzuro. But, on the other hand, I tried, by

    11 resorting to empirical methods, to check the materials

    12 I got or, rather, that the Defence got from the

    13 Prosecutor. But for want of technical means, which we

    14 regrettably do not have, I could not get valid

    15 results. But I consulted the School of Forestry, the

    16 university, after we heard Mr. Tabbush, and they told

    17 me that Mr. Tabbush's conclusion is probably right.

    18 Q. After that, did you feel it necessary to talk

    19 on the phone or in other ways with the witnesses who

    20 were in those two vehicles, and did any one of them

    21 tell you whether there was this possibility of them

    22 returning or something?

    23 A. Certainly --

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Well, again, I object to this

    25 testimony. This is going to the central point. If

  39. 1 this evidence is sought to be led, then the

    2 Prosecution, Your Honour, would ask that the witnesses

    3 testify to these matters.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Yes, I think that is a sound

    5 objection, Mr. Fila.

    6 MR. FILA: All right. I'm sorry. No

    7 problem. I withdraw the question. I was just -- I was

    8 just trying to be helpful to the court. The answer

    9 would have been more useful to you than to me, but I

    10 withdraw the question.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann, you

    12 are entitled to cross-examination, if any, about these

    13 last questions put by Mr. Fila.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours, I do

    15 have a few questions.

    16 Q. Mr. Vasic, did you look out for things other

    17 than just vegetation when you went to the scene which

    18 is depicted at time 15.42 on Exhibit D2, such as the

    19 house, sign posts, sheds, poplar trees and walnut

    20 trees, things of that nature? Did you look out for

    21 matters such as that?

    22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, yes, I was looking for that,

    23 and there is no doubt about it. That is why I went

    24 there. And when I talked about vegetation, I was

    25 saying that it made it rather difficult for me to come

  40. 1 to the right conclusions. Of course, on the one hand,

    2 I looked for the house that would correspond to the

    3 house that one can see at 15.42 on the tape, although

    4 you cannot really see it very well on the tape, and

    5 that is why I wanted to see that part of the landscape

    6 that would correspond to the tape.

    7 I agree with you that the main

    8 characteristics of this area are the sign post, then

    9 the house on the right-hand side of the pole. By then,

    10 I heard about the poplar and the apple tree from

    11 Mr. Tabbush, so I saw that too. And if we are talking

    12 about the place that Mr. Dzuro talked about, that is,

    13 the place that is in Vukovar, I found the pole. But in

    14 my assessment, it is much closer to the right-hand side

    15 of the road, the curb, the one that you can see at

    16 15.42. The vegetation at that place is lush and,

    17 therefore, you cannot recognise it, generally

    18 speaking.

    19 Another thing I was looking for was the sign

    20 post, but it was not there. I also noticed a small

    21 house which is at that particular place, but I cannot

    22 say whether it corresponds to the house on the tape at

    23 15.42, because if I were to present my opinion, it

    24 would only be my opinion; and in my opinion, that is

    25 not it, but that doesn't have to mean anything.

  41. 1 As far as the poplar tree is concerned, it is

    2 there. I already mentioned the walnut tree. At the

    3 School of Forestry at the university, they told me that

    4 it was quite probable that the conclusion of Professor

    5 Tabbush is right.

    6 As far as the house is concerned, it,

    7 according to its colour -- rather, the colour of its

    8 bricks, would match those colours, and also some of its

    9 structural characteristics would be similar. But,

    10 again, I cannot say whether they're the same house or

    11 not. I was not sure because I could not see it

    12 properly on the tape itself.

    13 So all these elements that you mentioned, I

    14 did look for.

    15 Q. Mr. Vasic, you're far too modest. Your

    16 opinion, I'm sure, would assist us. Do you feel that

    17 the position that was depicted by Mr. Dzuro as being

    18 the correct spot on 15.42 of D2 was, in fact, the right

    19 spot? And your opinion will do fine.

    20 A. Well, as a witness, I did not want to present

    21 opinions before the Trial Chamber, but if you ask me to

    22 do so, I will tell you what I think about it.

    23 I think that that place perhaps does look

    24 like the place that is registered at 15.42, but to my

    25 mind, what would not be identical is the pole on the

  42. 1 right-hand side of the road, the distance between it

    2 and the road, and also the fact that a sign post is not

    3 there. So there is no intersection on the right-hand

    4 side. And I don't know whether, in that situation,

    5 there would be any need to have a sign post there.

    6 The little house that is there, it seems to

    7 me, is much more fragile than the house that one can

    8 see in the back. It's a white house, you know. I

    9 always thought that it was a house that was made out of

    10 solid construction materials, but no. And as regards

    11 the house on the left-hand side which, by its volume

    12 and its bricks, would perhaps match the one, the angle

    13 that the camera had at 15.42 is an angle that I simply

    14 could not see, that I simply could not get, because the

    15 walnut tree is in front and it is green. And now it is

    16 enormous as opposed to the autumn when the recording

    17 was made in 1991.

    18 So I could not get the same visual effect in

    19 order to draw a comparison. That is why I talked about

    20 vegetation. However, according to its size and colour,

    21 the house could be it.

    22 Q. And no doubt you went down and checked out

    23 the scenery around Negoslavci?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And had you found a place that resembled the

  43. 1 spot at 15.42 in Negoslavci, you would have been very

    2 quick to come before this Tribunal and tell us about

    3 that, wouldn't you?

    4 A. I presented before the court everything I saw

    5 and heard, and I certainly would have said that too.

    6 But then I will tell you another thing. In Negoslavci,

    7 there is also a house that, according to size and the

    8 colour of its bricks, does match this house. But the

    9 landscape, at least under the circumstances that I saw

    10 it in this situation, would not correspond to the ones

    11 we saw on the tape. Perhaps in the autumn it looks

    12 different, but under these conditions, I did not have

    13 the impression that that was the place.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

    15 Honour.

    16 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. All right. I

    17 assume there's no objection to the witness being

    18 released.

    19 Mr. Vasic, thank you so much for coming to

    20 give evidence in court. You may now be released.

    21 Thank you.

    22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. The

    23 pleasure was mine.

    24 (The witness withdrew)

    25 JUDGE CASSESE: Before we adjourn, may I

  44. 1 suggest that we quickly go through the two items I

    2 raised this morning at the outset; namely, first of

    3 all, I wonder whether the reports submitted by the

    4 medical officer and the commanding officer have been,

    5 yes, filed? All right. So we can get a copy. Thank

    6 you.

    7 MR. FILA: Your Honour, with your permission,

    8 may I address the court? I was informed by the Dutch

    9 police that their report -- remember the famous report

    10 that we've been looking for for the past year? It

    11 should be in the registry by noon today.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: Report about what? About the

    13 tape?

    14 MR. FILA: The tape, the videotape. The

    15 videotape that the Dutch police -- the Prosecutor was

    16 kind enough to establish this contact for me, and they

    17 were supposed to have this done by noon today,

    18 reportedly so. I kindly ask that we look at it

    19 tomorrow as evidence.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: Of course. Yes. But I had

    21 understood from Mr. Williamson that the Dutch police

    22 had refused to draw up a report because this was a

    23 copy, so they were unable. Probably I was under a

    24 misunderstanding. Anyway, we are going to receive this

    25 report --

  45. 1 MR. FILA: There are two things.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Anyway, we will receive this

    3 report, and it will be discussed tomorrow.

    4 Now, what about the letter now, the issues

    5 raised by Mr. Bos in his letter of the 12th of June

    6 about some exhibits? Mr. Bos points out that

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibits 103A, 104A, 105A, 106A, and 196A,

    8 as well as 199A, are still to be tendered to the

    9 court.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, an error, Your Honour.

    11 They were to be provided in English translations.

    12 JUDGE CASSESE: All right.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. We can hand them up now.

    14 I think this is 103A.

    15 JUDGE CASSESE: 104, 105, 106, 196, and 199.

    16 I assume they had already been provided in Serbian.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour. I think the

    18 originals.

    19 JUDGE MAY: 196 we have, actually.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: 196A.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, but not a final version,

    22 apparently it was a draft translation.

    23 JUDGE CASSESE: I see. All right. Now then,

    24 Prosecutor's Exhibits 138, 139, and 169.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: They are available too, Your

  46. 1 Honour.

    2 JUDGE CASSESE: Available to the registry.

    3 These are for the registry.

    4 According, again, to Mr. Bos, Defence

    5 documents 115 to 125, plus 127 and 209, were marked for

    6 identification on the 27th of May, but a decision on

    7 their admission was postponed until an English

    8 translation was available.

    9 Now, the translation I understand will be

    10 ready by Monday, the 22nd. Well, this was said on the

    11 12th of June. So probably it is available, this

    12 translation, I imagine, and I wonder whether the

    13 Prosecutor can tell us whether or not they object to

    14 the tendering of those documents?

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we haven't seen

    16 the translation. Again, I can't imagine that there

    17 will be an objection but, again, without having seen

    18 the English translation, I'm in some difficulty with

    19 that.

    20 JUDGE CASSESE: I wonder, Mr. Bos, whether

    21 the Prosecutor --

    22 MR. FILA: In the afternoon?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Well, the translations were

    24 provided to Defence counsel on Monday, it's a Defence

    25 Exhibit, so since they were marked for identification

  47. 1 only, I have left it to the Defence to submit the

    2 documents, and I don't know whether they are intending

    3 to do that or not.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you.

    5 MR. FILA: Your Honour, in the afternoon, we

    6 are going to give all these copies to the Prosecutor.

    7 We just have to make a sufficient number of copies.

    8 You will receive them in the afternoon and you will say

    9 what you have to state about that tomorrow in the

    10 context of anything else.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Are there any other matters?

    12 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour, there is one

    13 more matter.

    14 During the course of evidence, Your Honours,

    15 of the -- excuse me, Your Honour. I just had to check

    16 something, Your Honour.

    17 During the testimony of Witness Mesic, he

    18 produced two exhibits, I believe, Exhibits P108 and

    19 P111, and there are mentioned, in both the documents,

    20 attachments. We sought to obtain from the United

    21 Nations in New York copies of the attachments because

    22 they weren't attached to his copy of the letters. A

    23 search of the Security Council archives has failed to

    24 provide us with the attachment to Exhibit P111, but we

    25 have the attachment to P108. That has been sent over

  48. 1 from New York. In fact -- and I make that available,

    2 Your Honours, to the Chamber. I provide the whole of

    3 the document we received from New York -- in fact, the

    4 first page is repetitious of Exhibit P108 -- but I

    5 think it's probably helpful if, Your Honour, it could

    6 all be attached because this is presumably the Security

    7 Council's copy of the document that was sent by

    8 Mr. Mesic.

    9 So that was something we had undertaken to

    10 do. We didn't succeed with 111, but we did with P108.

    11 So if that could be attached as P108A or B, whatever is

    12 convenient to the register?

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I'll mark it as P108A.

    14 JUDGE CASSESE: Any other matter? Yes,

    15 Mr. Niemann, you have other matters?

    16 MR. NIEMANN: And Your Honours moved on to

    17 the other exhibits before we had finished, so I'll just

    18 hand all of these, I think, to the registrar, if I

    19 may? These are the ones mentioned in paragraphs 1 and

    20 2 of the memorandum of the registrar. They are the

    21 English translations of all of them. I hadn't

    22 completed handing them all up, but they are all here,

    23 and if I may give them all to the registrar? Perhaps

    24 he could be kind enough to attach them.

    25 Finally, Your Honours, as mentioned

  49. 1 yesterday, instead of calling Professor Wagenaar, we

    2 would tender his report and his curriculum vitae. They

    3 are available, and I seek to do that now, and ask that

    4 they be marked the next Prosecution Exhibit number in

    5 order.

    6 JUDGE CASSESE: We already had yesterday the

    7 agreement of Mr. Fila, yes, to its being admitted into

    8 evidence.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will be marked

    10 262.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: And the CV.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: And the CV, 263.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I think I'm through, Your

    14 Honour.

    15 These are the documents in paragraph 2,

    16 paragraph 2 of Mr. Bos's memorandum of the 12th of

    17 June.

    18 I think, Your Honour, that disposes of all

    19 matters that were outstanding so far as the Prosecution

    20 is concerned.

    21 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Mr. Fila?

    22 MR. FILA: I just kindly ask Mr. Niemann

    23 whether there is something that I haven't received out

    24 of all of this so that I won't have to go through all

    25 of it.

  50. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Sorry, Your Honours. These are

    2 the English translation. Mr. Fila would have received

    3 the original document in the first place, but he

    4 probably doesn't have the translations so if --

    5 MR. FILA: Serbian?

    6 MR. NIEMANN: So copies of all --

    7 MR. FILA: I don't need the translations into

    8 Serbian. That's okay. But I was just wondering, what

    9 did you get from New York? Is it something that I

    10 haven't seen yet?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: I do apologise. Yes, indeed,

    12 it is, and I do apologise to Mr. Fila. I should have

    13 made it available to him.

    14 MR. FILA: I want to have a look at it.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour. And I don't

    16 press to tender it at this stage until Mr. Fila has had

    17 a chance to read it.

    18 I do apologise, Mr. Fila, for that.

    19 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. Now, as for the

    20 closing statement, we are grateful to Mr. Fila for

    21 providing the court with the Serbian text. Now, Part A

    22 has already been translated. I understand we will

    23 receive the remaining part of the translation tomorrow

    24 morning.

    25 What about the Prosecution? Of course, this

  51. 1 has been sent only to us, not to the Prosecution.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Well, this afternoon, Your

    3 Honour, we're expecting to do it.

    4 JUDGE CASSESE: This afternoon.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, there is an attachment,

    6 which may not be ready, which is more by way of

    7 assistance to Your Honours in just locating where

    8 pieces of evidence are. I'm not sure when that is

    9 going to be available. But the whole -- the rest of it

    10 is available, Your Honours.

    11 JUDGE CASSESE: Thank you. We can rise now,

    12 and we will reconvene tomorrow at 9.00 in the big

    13 courtroom, Courtroom 1.

    14 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at

    15 12.00 p.m. to be reconvened on Thursday,

    16 the 25th day of June, 1998 at 9.00 a.m.