Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 171

1 Monday, 10 July 2006

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 12.35 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody.

7 May the registrar please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case number

9 IT-98-29/1-PT, the Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Is Mr. Milosevic in court?

12 Mr. Milosevic, can you understand and follow the proceedings in a

13 language that you understand?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you and I understand

15 you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may remain seated, even when you're speaking.

17 Thank you very much. You may be seated.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we have the appearances for the Prosecution,

20 please?

21 MR. AKERSON: Good afternoon, Your Honour, David Akerson on behalf

22 of the Office of the Prosecutor, and I'm here with Manoj Sachdeva, trial

23 attorney, and Biljana Blazevic, our case manager.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Appearances for Mr. Milosevic?

Page 172

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honour. My name

2 is Branislav Tapuskovic and I represent Mr. Dragomir Milosevic. I'm

3 assisted by the lawyer Branislava Isailovic, who is a lawyer from Paris.

4 Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 Pursuant to Rule 65 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and

7 Evidence, the Trial Chamber or the Trial Judge has to convene a Status

8 Conference within 120 days of the initial appearance of the accused in

9 order to organise exchanges between the parties as to the -- and to ensure

10 expeditious preparation for trial and to review the status of the

11 accused's case and to allow the accused the opportunity to raise issues in

12 relation thereto, including his mental and physical condition.

13 I hope everybody has a copy of the agenda before them. Do you

14 have it, Mr. Akerson?

15 MR. AKERSON: I do not, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do not?


18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Mr. Tapuskovic? Okay. Maybe then I'll just

19 keep calling the items as we go along and we'll deal with them as we go

20 along.

21 Are there any outstanding motions? I'm made to understand that

22 there is a motion filed by -- on behalf of the accused for provisional

23 release. Obviously, I don't know when this was filed. I only heard of it

24 this morning. I would imagine that the Prosecution still has to respond

25 to if even before a decision can be made on it. Am I correct?

Page 173

1 MR. AKERSON: Yes, Your Honour. We have a written response that

2 will be filed very shortly.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

4 And that's the only outstanding motion. Thank you very much.

5 Now, at the last Status Conference on the 28th of March 2006, the

6 Prosecution declared that 424 exhibits were awaiting translation. What is

7 the position at this stage?

8 MR. AKERSON: If I'm understanding that item correctly,

9 Your Honour, these are English exhibits that are to be translated into --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Into Serbo-Croat?

11 MR. AKERSON: Yes. We've had a number of conversations with

12 Defence counsel regarding these exhibits and we have asked that the

13 Defence counsel actually make the request themselves in order to get those

14 translated for a couple of reasons. One, according to the Rules we are

15 not obligated to translate English exhibits into Croatian so we are not

16 doing it for the Office of the Prosecutor and we already have many

17 requests for translations that we do -- we are required to make.

18 Also, we are not doing this for the Court because this is -- they

19 are already in English so they are already in a language that you can

20 understand. These documents need to be translated, if at all, for Defence

21 counsel. So we have met with them, we've discussed it in a number of --

22 two meetings specifically, and I believe they've agreed to -- just to make

23 the request themselves so they can advance it because they can then

24 prioritise the request themselves because we don't know which of these

25 documents are most important that they need to prioritise. That being

Page 174

1 said, Your Honour, any assistance we can provide to Defence counsel, we

2 are happy to do that. But we would prefer for these documents, since we

3 really have no vested interest in them, that the Defence counsel assume

4 responsibility for these and make the request themselves. So that's the

5 status.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Akerson.

7 Mr. Tapuskovic? Do you confirm?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm very glad you

9 have raised this issue at the Pre-Trial Conference. This is a very

10 serious issue for us at this point in time, and it is making it impossible

11 for the Defence to adequately prepare for trial. The accused must have

12 access to documents that he can understand so that he can make certain

13 suggestions to us on the basis of these documents. At the previous

14 Pre-Trial Conference the Prosecution undertook the obligation to provide

15 those documents in translation. But given the trials that were in course

16 at the time they didn't -- it wasn't possible to deal with this issue.

17 The Prosecution undertook this obligation. But without these documents we

18 can't prepare for trial in an adequate way.

19 At that point in time I mentioned two very illustrative examples,

20 witnesses 56 and 124. These are witnesses that will be called by the

21 Prosecutor and I'm familiar with these cases. I know that all the

22 documents on those -- about those witnesses were translated in the case of

23 Slobodan Milosevic. So I still can't understand why those two witnesses,

24 who are extremely important for the Defence -- well, we haven't obtained

25 any of the documents in translation. Given the resources we have, it's

Page 175

1 impossible for us to deal with things. We can only see our accused a

2 couple of times a month. It's impossible for us to work on various issues

3 if we don't have translations. These are documents in which one word is

4 of crucial importance; everything depends on one word. So my colleague

5 and myself understand French above all, so, on the basis of Rule 21, item

6 1(A), it's the Prosecution's obligation to enable us to obtain the

7 material that we need by the service that is competent at this. We will

8 request our evidence to be translated when the time comes, to present that

9 evidence. In spite of all our efforts, we are very handicapped when it

10 comes to preparing our defence. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic, as I understood the

12 Prosecutor's position is that the documents are there for the asking. All

13 you need to do is to ask because they are not able to know what it is out

14 of the 424 that you would need and they would like you to make a request.

15 And as soon as you make the request, they will provide you with the

16 documents. Or with the translation, rather.

17 MR. AKERSON: If I could.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Akerson?

19 MR. AKERSON: I think that's precisely the question, Your Honour,

20 is that Defence counsel have equal access to submit these documents for

21 translations themselves. We are happy to facilitate this, if the Court --

22 if you would like us to, we can submit them. But it's awkward because we

23 are not doing it for us, we are doing it for Defence counsel. And it

24 seems to make more sense that they just assume responsibility and submit

25 them themselves. But that being said we want to get these done and out of

Page 176

1 the way so that we can all proceed to trial. So whatever Your Honour

2 prefers.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe it might be -- okay, you want to say

4 something?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are two

6 problems. With regard to the 424 documents, they've already requested

7 their translation and we were expecting this to be done by -- in two

8 months' time but I don't understand why we are not being provided with the

9 documents that have already been translated in the case of those two

10 witnesses that I mentioned, as an example. I don't understand why this

11 material wasn't immediately provided to us, why the translated material

12 wasn't provided to us because the Prosecution had such material. In the

13 case of Slobodan Milosevic these witnesses have already been examined and

14 all this material has already been translated so I don't understand why

15 the Prosecution cannot provide us with documents that have already been

16 translated, documents that refer to very important evidence. The

17 Prosecution has already requested that the 424 documents be translated.

18 But then there is the other issue why: Don't we have the material that

19 has already been translated? We haven't received translated statements,

20 translated evidence and I know this has been translated. It's not

21 necessary to request that material that has already been translated be

22 translated again. That would be absurd.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Two issues are raised here, Mr. Akerson. Anything

24 on the two witnesses?

25 MR. AKERSON: The only thing I can say is that any translation

Page 177

1 that we have, we provide to the Defence counsel. No questions asked. If

2 he wants to alert us specifically to these two witnesses, we can check and

3 see if there is translations but every translation that I know of that's

4 in our possession we provide of course to Defence counsel. It is only the

5 matter of these other documents that need to be translated who is going to

6 be responsible for that, but as to these specific witnesses I can meet

7 with Defence counsel after the fact and see if we have them. I'm not

8 aware that we have any translations that have not been disclosed but I'll

9 be happy to check again.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would be grateful if you would do that. Maybe if

11 we could just make an order that the Prosecution will check, at least the

12 specifically for the two witnesses, witness statements, and if you find

13 any translated statements of those two witnesses, provide them to the

14 Defence. And also assist the Defence to get translations of the 424

15 documents.

16 MR. AKERSON: Would you like us to make the requests ourselves?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could. It looks like it will expedite

18 things if you could --

19 MR. AKERSON: That's fine. We will be happy to do that. And I

20 just would assure the Court that any translation we get at any time, we

21 always would give that to Defence counsel.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Would that be okay? That will dispose of the matter that way,

24 then. Thank you very much.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 178

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 On the question of disclosures, Rule 66(A)(i) disclosures, at the

3 Status Conference held on the 12th of October 2005, the Prosecution

4 submitted that disclosure under this rule had been completed which was

5 contested by the Defence. Have the parties resolved this difference in

6 the meantime?

7 MR. AKERSON: To my knowledge, 66(A)(i) is complete, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tapuskovic?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had a couple of

10 meetings and at those meetings we managed to find the necessary solutions,

11 adequate solutions. I don't want to tie you with any other issues here.

12 We've had a -- we've prepared a letter that we'll provide the Prosecution

13 with. This concerns some of the issue that is you have raised. With

14 regard of four of the statements that we have received, I can say that we

15 still haven't received the translations of those statements into B/C/S.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which statements are these now, Mr. Tapuskovic? I

17 thought we talked about them --

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In the letter that we have

19 written for the Prosecution, we mentioned these statements. I can mention

20 these statements now, if you like. Witness 98, 46, 125, Witness 61, and

21 there are two statements that we received with supporting material and I

22 wouldn't like to mention the names. This is confidential. So there are

23 six statements in total, the translations of which we have not received.

24 And there are some documents that the Prosecution states that they have

25 provided us with but we've managed to file or register all those documents

Page 179

1 to examine them but there is significant number of documents that we

2 haven't received. We have a list which we'll provide the Prosecution with

3 after this conference and then I'll see which documents are concerned.

4 Out of 22 witnesses who were UN representatives and protective measures

5 were requested for them, only six of those witnesses have been identified

6 and 16 of them haven't yet been identified.

7 Your Honour, perhaps these statements were provided to us a long

8 time ago. We know about 60 witnesses or so but witnesses or 16 witnesses

9 who have been put forward and we still don't know what their identity is.

10 We still haven't received expert reports. We haven't got reports of the

11 experts who will be working for the Prosecution. This is very important

12 for the Defence so that we can prepare an adequate Defence.

13 And finally, I hope that these issues we will be able to resolve

14 in discussions with the Prosecution. We have a motion that we will

15 provide them with that there are these four or five items that in a

16 certain sense hadn't been dealt with, haven't been disclosed, and as a

17 result the Defence cannot examine such material. I think that's all I

18 have to say for the moment.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 This problem seems to be sort of running through from one Status

21 Conference to another. At the last Status Conference the Prosecution

22 indicated that this was complete, this disclosure was complete. The

23 Defence disputed that again. You are still disputing it today. May I

24 suggest, Mr. Tapuskovic, that you meet with the Prosecution after this and

25 sort out everything, just give the Prosecution every document that you say

Page 180

1 you do not have, which you are entitled to, which I should have had under

2 Rule 66(A)(i), let it know what it is that's outstanding and hopefully

3 they will provide the documents.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was precisely

5 our wish and we have it all in writing so that the Prosecution can see

6 exactly what it is that I was talking to you about.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then can we resolve it on

8 that basis then and hopefully we can get it off the item of the next

9 Status Conference. Okay. Thank you very much.

10 The next disclosure issue was in terms of Rule 66(A)(ii), and then

11 in terms of this one, at the Status Conference of the 28th of March this

12 year, the Defence submitted that they had not received the statements of

13 eight victims whom the Prosecution intends to call. What is the position?

14 Mr. Tapuskovic?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said a while ago

16 these are mainly not victims. As for the statements of victims we have

17 mainly received those. This is some sort of a misunderstanding. These

18 are witnesses who are supposed to speak about the problems which existed

19 at the time so they are not victims. That is the number of witnesses

20 which I indicated a while ago.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much, then. Then that can also

22 be resolved similarly as the problems under 66(A)(i). Would that be okay

23 with you, Mr. Akerson?

24 MR. AKERSON: That's fine, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Are there any issues that the

Page 181

1 parties would like to raise in terms of Rule 68? Mr. Akerson?

2 MR. AKERSON: Regarding Rule 68, we've met with Defence counsel.

3 He has provided us with a list of topics that he would like us to search

4 for in our collections. We've done that. That's ongoing. Hopefully, by

5 the end of next week, we can provide them with the bulk of the results of

6 those searches. There are some documents that need to be cleared under

7 Rule 70 still and there are some documents that are witness statements and

8 we need to search other cases to make sure witness protections aren't in

9 place but we will try to do that as quickly as possible. But hopefully

10 the bulk of that disclosure will be done by the end of not this week but

11 the following week.


13 MR. AKERSON: I would just like to say about one thing that was

14 mentioned by Mr. Tapuskovic, there are UN witnesses that are on the 65 ter

15 list that are referenced as UN witness. They were all protected under

16 Rule 7340. We have pending requests to get those cleared. We've received

17 six of them so far and of course as soon as we get the clearance on the

18 others we will provide those names. But the attending statements with

19 them have already been provided, so it's only the -- literally the name

20 that remains outstanding.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. But all those things are being attended to.

22 MR. AKERSON: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay. Do you have any

24 comments to make on that, Mr. Tapuskovic? Or are you happy with what the

25 Prosecution said?

Page 182

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Regrettably, Your Honour, I do

2 have an objection which -- with reference to Rule 68. It is true the

3 Prosecution has submitted to us a number of statements relevant to that

4 issue but I have to quote 68, the brief, "the Prosecutor shall disclose to

5 the Defence any material which in the actual knowledge of the Prosecutor

6 may suggest the innocence or mitigate the guilt of the accused," and I'm

7 quite sure that the Prosecutor already has knowledge that these -- this is

8 evidence that can be used under Rule 68. However, everything which has

9 been submitted to us by the Prosecution so far has been submitted in a way

10 which states that they are being submitted both under Rule 68 and under

11 Rule 66, so that this is an enormous quantity of material. Namely, the

12 Prosecution has never submitted to us one single bit of evidence decidedly

13 saying that according to their knowledge it is in the spirit of Rule 68.

14 It is very confusing for us. It is so voluminous, it is such a huge

15 quantity of material, and such a bulk of evidence. So can I ask the

16 Prosecution when they do submit to us something under Rule 68 which they

17 are definitely sure of, that they should spell out that it is under Rule

18 68. Not 68/66, because it is really hard for us then to handle such

19 material and that is a problem for us, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any comment, Mr. Akerson?

21 MR. AKERSON: I think that the simple response, Your Honour, is

22 that under Rule 66 we have an obligation to provide that document in a

23 language to the accused. So it's in their advantage that we designate

24 them as both Rule 66 and 68, which they often are. I mean, we designate

25 them according to the rules that we think they apply to. But if we only

Page 183

1 designate them as Rule 66 -- or 68, I'm sorry, there isn't an obligation

2 to translate it. And so I think it's to their advantage to actually have

3 them designated properly by both rules, if they apply, because then we

4 submit them for translation as well.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, but I guess the point that Mr. Tapuskovic is

6 making is that if material is designated Rule 66/68, then they are not

7 sure which of that material is specifically Rule 68 material. Of course,

8 the problem can be solved by them reading the documentation and that's

9 sort of asking you to do the reading for them and sorting it out for them.

10 MR. AKERSON: The only thing I can say is that if any document, if

11 we disclose it and we think it has some Rule 68 exculpatory value, we

12 designate it as such. It may also be being disclosed under --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under 66.

14 MR. AKERSON: Yeah, but -- so we flag it with both rules. But

15 that means it's Rule 68 in some respect, and I think we are obligated to

16 do that, to designate both rules.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Tapuskovic, if material

18 is disclosed to you, surely the idea is for you to read through that

19 material and you see the Prosecution says that some material does come

20 under both rules, both 66 and 68, and that's why they then put it 66/68

21 because it applies under both rules. It is anticipated that you're going

22 to read that and whatever is exculpatory in that material then you would

23 regard it as 68 material, and you would then use it at trial for that

24 purpose. And whatever is 66 material you will use it for that purpose.

25 Is it not -- isn't that what is -- what the case should be?

Page 184

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand full

2 well what you're saying and that is only logical, of course, but Rule 68

3 is a very specific one. I am talking about when the Prosecutor has

4 ascertained that some material is indeed exculpatory and knows that for a

5 fact, so everything that has been submitted to us so far, absolutely, and

6 this refers to everything, it has never been specifically indicated it

7 goes under Rule 68. I simply don't see -- I'm quite sure that the

8 Prosecution knows nor a fact what evidently falls under 68 specifically,

9 it can be five or ten materials, I do not insist on the exact number but

10 to indicate every time that it comes under either 66 or 68 is something

11 which leads us into an absurd situation.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [In English] Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like you're going to have again to talk to

15 your learned friend on the opposite side on this issue because what I

16 understand him to be saying is that simply some material falls under both

17 rules and that is why they flag it as 66/68 material. And he also says

18 that when they flag it as 66, then that's to your advantage because then

19 they are responsible for the translation. But if it is only 68 then

20 you've got to sort out your own translation. Maybe it may be helpful if

21 you can sit down, as you do with the other items that we have been

22 talking -- that we've talked, to sit down with your opposite number and

23 sort out your difficulties. It's going to be very difficult to sort them

24 out here in court. I can say read the material and check out which is 68

25 and which is 66. I could say this must be done by the Prosecution but

Page 185

1 does it really solve the problem? If you sit together and sort these

2 things out I think it will be much easier that way. Wouldn't you agree

3 with that?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course it is --

5 would be only normal that the two sides would have to sit down and agree

6 on all these matters. I don't mind being submitted a document in English.

7 I will have it translated at my own expense, but I cannot believe that in

8 this case there hasn't been a single document in respect of which they

9 could have said immediately and decidedly that it was a document of such

10 character, even if it be just one or a couple, ten documents. But the

11 fact that not a single piece of material has been flagged as under Rule

12 68, even if it is in English, that is something which I find hard to

13 believe.

14 If I have to go through -- weigh, every piece of evidence which I

15 get from the Prosecution to see which one falls under which category, then

16 I think that complicates matters.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are standing up, Mr. Akerson?

18 MR. AKERSON: And I guess it's important to note that if -- and I

19 think this may be one source of confusion which I'll be happy to meet with

20 Defence counsel and discuss further, but if we identify something as Rule

21 66/68, it is because they are both things not because it's one or the

22 other and I guess that may be a point of clarity. I'm also looking at our

23 disclosure list and there are a number of things that we have disclosed

24 that are designated as only 68. There's a number of things that are

25 designated as Rule 66. And there are some that are designated as both.

Page 186

1 So we have disclosed under all rules -- in both -- under both rules,

2 individually and together. I guess it's also important to note that we

3 are talking -- I think we've used 66(A) and 66(B), and I think what

4 Defence counsel is referring to is 66(B). And just to be clear on that

5 particular point, we are not obligated to disclose under 66(B). Under

6 66(A), of course, we are.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe, as I say, from what you are saying, it's

8 quite clear that only a meeting of the two groups will sort this -- these

9 things out, because now you're saying to me that there is material that is

10 disclosed that is under 68 only and he's saying not a single document has

11 been identified as 68.

12 MR. AKERSON: Right.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So I think if you could sit down and sort these

14 things out.

15 MR. AKERSON: I would be happy to do that.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So it's ordered.

17 Are there any other matters that -- before we go to any other

18 matters, let me raise the issue about the state of health of the accused.

19 Mr. Tapuskovic, anything that you would like to tell us about the

20 accused's state of health, either physically or mentally?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that perhaps

22 it is best if that question was put to him but as far as I know he is in

23 excellent state of health both physically and mentally, and as far as I

24 know he has not had any objections in respect of the treatment being

25 accorded him in the Detention Unit or in respect of his health condition.

Page 187

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Okay then we'll go straight

3 to the accused himself.

4 Mr. Milosevic, do you have any complaints regarding your state of

5 health or -- both physically or mentally or the conditions at the UNDU?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I'm very

9 pleased indeed to be asked questions of this kind which attests to the

10 kind of attitude being accorded to people in my situation. To your

11 question, I should like to respond that I have no objections whatsoever to

12 the work of the staff in the Detention Unit, nor do I have any objections

13 generally speaking in respect of my conditions. As regards my health

14 condition, as they say, thank God it is good. Perhaps sometimes it won't

15 do for one to boast of one's good health condition but it is good, both

16 physically, mentally and in every other respect. I don't have any

17 problems either with respect to communication with my family or any -- or

18 in any other respect. If you will allow me, I would have a couple of

19 other comments to make in this particular regard.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please go ahead.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seems to me today for the first

22 time at this Status Conference that there has been some headway made along

23 the lines the Prosecution, the Defence, namely that after a lot of time

24 has elapsed, there has been some sort of a rapprochement of their

25 positions. With that, I should like to express the hope that what

Page 188

1 Mr. Tapuskovic has raised will be indeed resolved so that I would be able

2 to find my bearings in this entire situation more easily and to also give

3 my input to the Defence, preparation of the Defence, because the previous

4 Status Conferences, in my view, evolved a bit differently. There was not

5 as true, true insight into the actual situation and the problems attending

6 it. I of course appreciate the positions of both parties, also in view of

7 the voluminosity of the materials involved. I do hope that we can perhaps

8 reduce the material to the substantive issues, including to what I said

9 the last time. I don't have to have access to materials which refer to

10 the Serbian Krajina, et cetera, which have nothing to do with me. So I

11 should like to stress that as a contribution from my part, so as to

12 expedite matters.

13 Having said all this, Your Honour, I should also like to add that

14 I've been here for 19 months now and the question was initiated twice of

15 my conditional release pending the actual trial so far, but this was

16 refused. This provisional release was refused, but I wish to say that by

17 my general attitude and position, I actually have shown that it is

18 possible for me to be outside the Detention Unit pending the actual trial

19 so I would like to appeal on you -- to you that that be done if at all

20 possible. If not, then I really have nothing to add.

21 I should like to thank you, Your Honour, everything is all right,

22 everything is okay, I really have nothing to add to that. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milosevic. The Chamber

24 does appreciate your comments, and I thank you very much for your candid

25 expression of your views. And I'm also happy to hear that you are in very

Page 189

1 good health. I think it's a very good point to make note of.

2 I am sympathetic to the fact that you have been in detention for

3 19 months. But you know these trials take time, and everything possible

4 will be done and I'm sure has been done also before to try to get your

5 case to trial, and I can assure you that everybody in court here is

6 working very hard to get your case to trial as soon as possible.

7 Regarding your application for conditional release, you will

8 remember that at the beginning of this conference this afternoon, we

9 started about that point. I did acknowledge that we have received your

10 new application. The Prosecution must get an opportunity to respond to

11 that, and then the Court will make its decision. So I'm not able to give

12 you a decision on that point right now and I'm sorry if that disappoints

13 you, but that's how the process works. Okay? So your application will be

14 considered and you'll hear in due course. Thank you very much. You may

15 be seated. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Are there any other issues

18 that the parties would like to raise which perhaps the Court may have

19 missed? Mr. Akerson?

20 MR. AKERSON: Only one small issue, Your Honour, that is that on

21 May 10th of this year we filed a proposal to the Defence which was a list

22 of facts for potential agreement, 40 pages of facts, and they range from

23 things that are likely to be at issue at trial to things that are likely

24 not to be at issue at trial. And we've had a meeting with both Defence

25 counsel individually and discussed this motion. It seems that we are not

Page 190

1 advancing on this and I would just suggest that the Court contemplate that

2 maybe being more proactive in getting involved in this issue, because I

3 think there's a number of facts that we could probably agree on but it may

4 take maybe another Pre-Trial Conference dedicated or status -- Pre-Trial

5 Conference dedicated to this issue, to maybe try to push the parties to

6 come to agreement on some of the more mundane issues that aren't going to

7 be in agreement. I know that's not kind of the normal course of things

8 here, but I think a little more proactive effort might actually be able to

9 save some trial time in this case.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tapuskovic? Any comments?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, naturally we've

12 worked on these issues with the accused, Dragomir Milosevic. We've dealt

13 with these issues. I must admit, and this is very important in this case,

14 I must admit the following. You know that the Accused Galic was put on

15 trial, that his trial concerned a different period of time with regard to

16 the period of time that concerns Mr. Dragomir Milosevic. And since his

17 trial has been -- or this case has been going for a while we thought we

18 would have the judgement, the valid judgement from that case. That would

19 provide us with certain guidelines and this has provided us with a -- or

20 caused us a certain problem because we cannot examine facts that are

21 undisputed. As far as I know but I'm not sure, I think that there are

22 very few facts that were considered to be undisputable. With regard to

23 facts that are well known, that don't have to be dealt with, with regard

24 to the facts that can facilitate the work of the court, it's also in our

25 interest not to deal with matters that are not in dispute. That we need

Page 191

1 an adequate analysis of such material, material the Prosecution has

2 amounts to 40 pages, but for the moment I really can't tell you when we

3 could provide you with a precise answer. We only have a few days to go

4 and see the accused and speak to him. That's what the Registry allows us.

5 As soon as we are in a position to provide you with more precise

6 information about this matter, about reaching an agreement, on facts that

7 are not in dispute, well, as soon as it's possible we will inform you of

8 our agreement. But you should bear in mind everything that I have just

9 mentioned.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic, but what I don't

11 understand in what you are saying is how your agreement on whether or not

12 the documents that have been submitted to you are agreed facts or not, how

13 that is dependent on the judgement in the Galic matter. I don't think, if

14 the Galic matter does come to finality and we get the judgement, so be it,

15 but I don't think we can wait until that judgement is -- comes out before

16 we resolve what is common cause between the parties. I would imagine that

17 the parties should be able to identify issues that are common cause. I

18 understand that you say you see the accused for very short periods of time

19 on three occasions. I cannot understand why that is so if you're supposed

20 to prepare for his trial. How often actually do you see the accused for

21 professional work, I mean?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, if we could

23 see him more frequently we could do so but the registry has its principles

24 that it adheres to, and as a result we can see the accused twice a month

25 for two days on each occasion. And that's not sufficient time for us to

Page 192

1 be able to reach agreement with him. There are certainly facts that we

2 will consider to be indisputable, especially with regard to certain

3 general issues but at this point in time, we can't respond to that very

4 voluminous motion made by the Prosecution. We will attempt to do so

5 before the trial commences but at the moment, we really are not in a

6 position to respond so rapidly to the Prosecution's suggestion as to the

7 facts that could be considered to be indisputable. We'll do our best, of

8 course, to do whatever we can, to do whatever is possible, but at this

9 point in time, we cannot establish what our general position is with

10 regard to all those facts that the Prosecution believes are not in

11 dispute.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to give an estimate of time when you

13 think you may have got your instructions and be able to respond?

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this depends on when

15 we will receive the material that we have to be provided with. The

16 important documents that -- I don't know when the trial might start. We

17 haven't mentioned this, we haven't discussed this issue today; but it

18 would be very good if we had a vague idea. This is very important, as to

19 when the trial might commence. Does anyone have at least a vague idea of

20 when the trial might commence? I don't know how I can respond to the

21 Prosecution's suggestion at the moment since I don't even know when the

22 trial might commence but I'll do my best to act expeditiously.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Tapuskovic, I also don't know when the trial

24 might commence but the sooner these -- these issues are resolved, the

25 sooner will the trial commence. It doesn't help to say, "Tell me when the

Page 193

1 trial will commence so that I can then expedite things." You've got to

2 expedite things so that we can know when we can schedule the trial date.

3 So I'm asking you to not hang what you are going -- what you have to do on

4 when you are going -- when the trial is going to start but rather to do

5 what you have to do so that we can see that the case is ready for trial.

6 The case will get to trial when it is ready for trial and we've got to get

7 it ready for trial, and getting it ready for trial includes, amongst other

8 things, your agreeing with your opposite number on what may be agreed

9 facts between the two of -- between the parties. And I understand that

10 you say you've got very limited time for consultation with your client but

11 within what is allowable, I'm asking to you please give priority to

12 looking at those agreed facts.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is

14 misunderstanding, that's quite obvious. What you have said is correct but

15 we will certainly act in this way before we file a pre-trial brief. There

16 are a lot of facts that could be agreed on but we have to analyse

17 everything very carefully. We are attempting to analyse the documents

18 provided to us by the Prosecution very carefully. We are trying to gather

19 our own evidence, and only once we have examined all of this material will

20 it be possible for us to express our position with regard to the facts

21 that are not in dispute. We will do our best to deal with all these

22 issues and to reach agreement with the Prosecution as soon as possible.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear what you say. I go back to my earlier

24 question. Are you able to give an estimate of time when you think you can

25 revert to your -- to the Prosecution on the agreed facts, proposed agreed

Page 194

1 facts?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We will do our best to discuss

3 this issue whenever we meet the Prosecution. On all such occasions we

4 will deal with this issue and try to define our respective positions.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic. We -- I suppose we will

6 have to leave that point on the basis that you will also sort it out with

7 the Prosecution like you do the rest of the other issues.

8 Anything else, Mr. Akerson, on your side?

9 MR. AKERSON: Nothing further, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any issue that you would like to raise,

11 Mr. Tapuskovic?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In that event, then, that

14 will conclude the conference.

15 And the Court now stands adjourned. Court adjourned.

16 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

17 1.26 p.m.