Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 757

1 Monday, 22 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have been told that the Defence has a

6 matter that it wishes to raise before the witness is brought in.

7 I'll hear the Defence.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for

9 allowing me to raise this issue. I was hoping that we can do that in a

10 closed session.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let us have a closed session.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: A private session will do.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Yes. [Interpretation] Yes, it's all right

16 [Private session]

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Page 758











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Page 762

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your Honour, we're in open session.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration. I'm going

17 to ask the usher to read the declaration to the witness.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

25 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

Page 763

1 Q. Good morning, madam.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Madam, could you tell Their Honours your name, please.

4 A. Dzenana Sokolovic.

5 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, whereabouts did you grow up?

6 A. In Sarajevo.

7 Q. Where were you living in November of 1994?

8 A. In Bistrik.

9 Q. At that time, were you married or were you single?

10 A. I was married.

11 Q. And I should ask before I proceed. You said that you lived in

12 Bistrik. Is that a part of Sarajevo, a district of Sarajevo?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Are you still married?

15 A. No, I am not. I'm divorced.

16 Q. In November of 1994, did you have any children?

17 A. Yes, two.

18 Q. Could you tell the Court their names and their ages in November of

19 1994, please.

20 A. Enida was 8; Nermin was 7. Their last name was Divovic.

21 Q. I'm going to be asking you some questions about a day in November

22 in 1994 when you were shot and wounded. Before I do that, I'm going to

23 ask you to tell the people in the courtroom how people of different

24 ethnicities and religions got along with each other before the armed

25 conflict began.

Page 764

1 A. Well, they got along normally. There were no problems.

2 Q. Did you have friends who were Catholic or Orthodox?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you have any problems with Catholic or Orthodox people?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And now I'm going to be asking you some questions about the day on

7 which you were shot. On the 18th of November, 1994, did you leave the

8 place that you were living in Bistrik?

9 A. Yes. I went to my mother-in-law's to collect some firewood.

10 Q. Why did you need to go to your mother-in-law's residence in order

11 to collect firewood?

12 A. I didn't have firewood at home to make fire for my children.

13 Q. Was there any reason connected to the war that you had to go and

14 get firewood? Let me ask a different question. How would you normally

15 cook in your residence during times of peace?

16 A. I was using electricity.

17 Q. Were you able to use electricity during the armed conflict?

18 A. No. It just was there occasionally and then it went off again.

19 Q. Did you use the wood that you were going to your mother-in-law's

20 for to cook food with?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you use it -- did you use it to heat your house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What part of Sarajevo does your mother-in-law live in?

25 A. She lived in Novo Sarajevo, Hrasna.

Page 765

1 Q. About how far is it, how long does it take to walk from Bistrik to

2 Novo Sarajevo?

3 A. Well, I would say some good three or four hours.

4 Q. All right. Especially with children, I would guess.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What time did you get to your mother-in-law's?

7 A. I got there in the early evening. I spent the night there and

8 then I wanted to go home. I took the firewood with me.

9 Q. And I may have misspoke. It was actually the 17th of November

10 that you left to go to your mother-in-law's and the 18th when you came

11 back; am I right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Your son Nermin, did he want to leave your mother-in-law's place

14 on the 18th?

15 A. No. He was telling me, Mama, let's stay another day, but I told

16 him that we should go, that school was about to begin, and that's how we

17 set off.

18 Q. And when you set off to return to Bistrik, about what time of day

19 was it that you left your mother-in-law's place?

20 A. Well, it was about -- I didn't take long to get down from her

21 place. It was around 11 or 12.00, when the first truce was in place.

22 Q. Now, you mentioned in that answer that a truce was in place.

23 Would you have gone to your mother-in-law's if there had been --

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. Would you have gone to your mother-in-law's --

Page 766

1 A. I had no idea that the truce was to be enforced. I set off down

2 the Trigovska Street and people were telling me, It's a truce, and that's

3 how I set off with my children. And I reached the railway station and we

4 were walking. There were people around.

5 Q. Okay. Let me just slow that down and take each part of your

6 answer in turn, madam.

7 You knew that -- you say you knew there was a truce because people

8 on the street told you so; is that right?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Was there any other way that you knew that there was a truce in

11 effect on the 18th of November?

12 A. Well, I saw trams running, so I just assumed.

13 Q. Did trams run outside of cease-fires or did they only run during

14 cease-fires?

15 A. Only when the shooting was, the trams would stop.

16 Q. Would you have taken the route home from Novo Sarajevo to Bistrik

17 that you did that day if there had not been a cease-fire?

18 A. No. I would go the roundabout way, around the bakery, the way I

19 had gone with my children.

20 Q. At some point on your walk home, did you come to the area of the

21 Holiday Inn and the university's Faculty of Philosophy?

22 A. I was at the first crossing. My girl crossed -- ran across and I

23 stayed behind with Nermin, and I just saw that my boy fell down, and

24 because I would always tell him, Son, when there's shooting, lie down, and

25 I didn't realise that he was wounded until UNPROFOR put him behind the

Page 767

1 bushes. At that moment I wasn't aware that my little boy was killed.

2 Q. Now, you said that you were at the first crossing. I'm going to

3 show you some photographs and ask you to identify this first crossing.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, could we please display the

5 overhead view with the various sniping incidents on it.

6 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, on the monitor in front of you, do you see a

7 photograph of part of the city of Sarajevo?

8 A. I do see it, yes.

9 Q. Do you see the yellow building there, quite distinctive, the

10 Holiday Inn?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Do you see a number of red circles, one inside the other?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And are those red circles of anything -- any relation to the

15 location where you and Nermin were shot that day?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, when you were at that spot, the spot marked with the red

18 circles, were you in territory controlled by the Bosnian Muslims or in

19 territory controlled by the Bosnian Serbs?

20 A. The Serbs were in control because the shots came from Metalka.

21 Q. When you say "Metalka," down at the bottom of the photograph, do

22 you see a number of white and red buildings? Down at the bottom.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is Metalka one of those buildings?

25 A. Believe me, I don't know exactly where it is. I know that's where

Page 768

1 the shots came from.

2 Q. Right. Now, that's where the shots came from. And is it your

3 testimony that that area was under control of the Bosnian Serbs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But now, going back to the place where the red circles are, where

6 you and Enida and Nermin were walking, was the spot where the red circles

7 are under the control of the Bosnian Muslims or of the Bosnian Serbs?

8 A. Let me tell you. I came this way, from over there, and I walked

9 over to the other side.

10 Q. Yes. And I understand you crossed the road, but I'm asking you,

11 were you in the territory of the Bosnian Muslim army, the Bosnian army,

12 when you did that, when you crossed that road?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you were in Bosnian Muslim territory when you were shot?

15 A. Well, who was holding that particular area I really don't know --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. It's not very clear to me what

17 the witness said.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm working on it, Your Honour.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I am also having

20 this problem, because I assume that the examination-in-chief will follow

21 its usual rules and that our witness has given an answer already, and I'm

22 objecting to the Prosecution using the method of leading questions.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Of course, you are not to ask leading

25 questions. Some of them have been slightly leading and I have allowed

Page 769

1 them. But hereafter, since these are issues of contention between the

2 parties, no leading questions.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour. In answer to one issue that

4 Ms. Isailovic raised, I don't believe that at this point the witness has

5 answered the question as to whose territory she was in. I think it has

6 been unclear and I will try to clarify it by some non-leading questions.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Part of the problem for me is when you ask the

8 question, "Were you in Bosnian Muslim territory when you crossed the

9 road," do you mean having crossed the road, was she then in -- no, all

10 right. Well ask it -- put it more clearly.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: We'll get there.

12 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, let me go at it this way: At your house in

13 Bistrik, which sign of the lines, the confrontation lines, were you living

14 on?

15 A. Well, truth to tell, there were our men over there and those

16 others across the way.

17 Q. And did you cross the front lines going back and forth to your

18 mother-in-law's house, or did you stay on your side of the confrontation

19 lines?

20 A. No. Again, I'm telling you, I don't know. I may have become a

21 bit nervous. As I was heading towards Metalka, there was UNPROFOR, and

22 then the first crossing that I was supposed to cross, I was shot there,

23 where this line is, with my children.

24 Q. Okay. Let's move on from there.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I'd like to ask the

Page 770

1 witness a question to clarify things.

2 When you speak about crossing, on the screen we see the picture of

3 the site, and at the top of the picture we see the yellow building.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And at the right of the picture

6 there's a tall building, a skyrise.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] At the left you see a white

9 building. So what do you mean by crossing? We see several circles on

10 this picture. From what side were you coming? Were you coming from the

11 side of the skyrise to go towards the white building, or from the white

12 building to go towards the skyrise? And what exactly did you cross, the

13 perpendicular road going towards the Holiday Inn? In what direction were

14 you moving, in fact? Witness.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right here.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: Is it possible to have some assistance from the

18 usher, maybe, to clarify the situation.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I think what we will do is the

20 photograph -- something similar to the photograph on the monitor is on

21 e-court, and perhaps if we call that up, then the witness can mark with

22 the pen, because on this I don't think she can mark with the pen.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: Please.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: So if you give me one moment to identify the

25 photograph and call it up by its ter number.

Page 771

1 JUDGE MINDUA: It should be map number 2.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: It's photograph number 2, Your Honour, and the ter

3 number is 2819.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: I would -- [Interpretation] So I'd like to

5 understand exactly from what side was the witness coming and where was she

6 going, in what direction, because here I see on the left of the picture,

7 there's vacant space and on the right there's a skyscraper that's more or

8 less blue-coloured. We see the Holiday Inn hotel in yellow. Could the

9 witness show us, by pointing with her finger, in what direction she was

10 moving, walking.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Excuse me, Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have it on the screen. Could the map be

13 put on the screen. Yes, we now have it.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well, we didn't see her draw the

15 line. So on the right-hand side there is this blue skyscraper. Now, did

16 she go from left to right or right to left? Was she walking in the

17 direction of the skyscraper or was she walking towards the left?

18 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left. I went left.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So she was walking from the

22 skyscraper towards the left, towards the vacant area at the left of the

23 picture.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just suggest that we

25 perhaps erase the line - it can be done - and then we could all see the

Page 772

1 witness draw the line.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The line is now erased.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Witness. Would you now

4 show us in what direction you were walking on that day.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Now, when the Prosecutor talks of

7 crossing, does this mean that you crossed the road that is perpendicular

8 to your itinerary, the road leading to the Holiday Inn hotel? Is that the

9 crossroads that you crossed.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. This way, I've ...

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.

12 And my last question: From the crossroads, were you able to know

13 exactly where the front line was? Was there a front line separating the

14 two armies or was there no front line at that time in that part of the

15 town? Could you not know?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Know what? Grbavica was behind

17 Miljitska [phoen], over there to the left. It couldn't have been anybody

18 else but them. That's where I was shot from, the left side. The bullet

19 passed through me and killed the little one.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.


22 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, as you made your walk back to Bistrik that day, can

23 you tell us, please, what the weather was like.

24 A. Well, it wasn't really that overcast. It was, you know ...

25 Q. Was there any problem being able to see a few hundred metres?

Page 773

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. Does that mean that you could see a few hundred metres without a

3 problem?

4 A. No. You know what, I couldn't because UNPROFOR was there. I

5 wasn't really looking very carefully, to tell you the truth.

6 Q. Okay. Well, were there leaves on the trees?

7 A. Just a little.

8 Q. Was it a foggy day?

9 A. No.

10 Q. As you started to walk across the street, what side of you was

11 Nermin on?

12 A. My right. He was holding onto my jacket.

13 Q. And where was Enida?

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor. I think she said --

15 Madam Witness, could you show which side you had your son on, with your

16 hand.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right here.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. To your left side, then.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: You can sit down again.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Madam Witness. Please sit

21 down.


23 Q. And as you crossed the street, were you shot?

24 A. Probably. I didn't stop anyway.

25 Q. Were you taken to the hospital?

Page 774

1 A. Yes. And the little one remained on the ground after I had been

2 taken away, and I don't know what happened later.

3 Q. And you were taken to the hospital. Was that with a gunshot

4 wound?


6 Q. Now, going back to the photographs --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

9 A. No problem.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Going back to the photographs, Your Honour, on the

11 screen, we have this photograph that has been marked by the witness. I'll

12 ask that it be noted for the record that the witness began that line on

13 the left-hand side of the photograph and ended it on the right-hand side

14 of the photograph to indicate her direction of travel. And I'll ask that

15 that image be captured and introduced into evidence with a number.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let that be done.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P88, Your Honours.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: Now, Your Honours, I'd like to go back to the

19 photograph we originally had, the one with the red circles on it.

20 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, we're going to move in now --

21 [French on English channel]

22 Q. -- we're going to move in on that image, we're going to look at

23 what we see when we move in on that image, and when we've looked at it,

24 I'm going to ask you if what you see is a fair and accurate picture of

25 that intersection where you and Nermin were shot on the 18th of November,

Page 775

1 1994.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, could we do that, please.

3 Q. Now we're going to rotate this photograph through a complete

4 circle, and we're going to ask you to tell us that this was fair and

5 accurate if it was.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Could you begin rotating, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Please wait until it's all the way around. Thank

9 you.

10 Q. Was that a fair and accurate picture of the intersection where you

11 and your son were shot?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I will ask that this portion of what

14 we've just seen be introduced into evidence.


16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P89, Your Honours.


18 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, do you remember speaking with an investigator of

19 the ICTY named Barry Hogan, and having some video taken in Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: And if we could, Ms. Case Manager, call up

22 Ms. Sokolovic's portion of that video.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you do that, I wondered whether the

24 witness would be able to pinpoint the precise area or something

25 approximating to the area where she was actually shot.

Page 776

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, that is exactly what she does on the

2 next video clip. You will see the investigator have her stand on the very

3 spot so that we can all see it.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see it. All right, thanks.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: Would that be responsive to the Court's concern?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thanks.

7 Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the video is going to

9 be suggestive, so I would prefer that the witness show us on a picture the

10 exact location where she and her son were at the time of these shots,

11 because the video is something that was filmed and in which the

12 Prosecution took part. Thank you.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: If I may, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let me hear your response to that.

15 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, the video itself is not suggestive.

16 You will see the investigator say, Please go and stand where you were when

17 you were shot. He does not say, Is this the spot? He does not indicate

18 to the witness where she should go and stand in any way. You will see the

19 witness, of her own free will and unguided by the investigator, proceed to

20 the spot where she was shot.

21 And for that reason, I believe that the video is not suggestive,

22 the questions posed by the investigator were not suggestive, and I put it

23 that it would be of material assistance to the Court to have this video in

24 evidence in understanding this witness' testimony and the events to which

25 she is testifying.

Page 777

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll see the video, and if, at a particular

2 point, we determine that it is too suggestive, then we will not allow the

3 question to be put.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, could we play that portion of the

5 video that concerns Ms. Sokolovic, please.

6 [Videotape played]

7 "Investigator: Witness, at this time I would like to ask you to

8 please stand in the location where you were shot on the 18th of November,

9 1994.

10 "Can you please point in the direction in which you were walking.

11 "And can you please point to where the bullet hit you and where it

12 exited your body.

13 "Could you please point with your right hand to where it hit you

14 and with your -- and then with your right hand to where it left your body.

15 First, where it hit you; second, where it left your body.

16 "Thank you. And could you please point to where your son was

17 walking beside you at that time.

18 "Thank you. And finally, could you please point in which -- in

19 the direction from which you believe the shot came from on that day.

20 "Thank you. This concludes the video of this sniping incident."

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, for the record, I'm not going to move

22 that into evidence at this time. There are a number of interviews on a

23 single DVD, and after each of the witnesses has authenticated it, I'm

24 going to move the -- we'll move the whole DVD into evidence, just so the

25 Court understands where we're proceeding.

Page 778

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, if you have any submissions to

4 make on the video, we'll hear them. If you have any submissions, you may

5 make them right now.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I will present my submissions

7 later, but for the time being, let me say that the location where we saw

8 the witness -- well, there may have been a suggestion to her before we --

9 the video was taken and it may not exactly correspond to what we saw

10 today. But I'll have to come back to this later.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: I hear no objections being made at this time,

13 however, and so I take that I may proceed?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may proceed. I know that you're not

15 seeking the admission at this particular time.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Because no one witness can authenticate the entire

17 collection, and so we'll do it bit by bit, and after the last one, we'll

18 submit the entire collection into evidence.

19 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, we saw you on the video pointing where the bullet

20 went in and where the bullet came out of you. After the bullet came out

21 of you, where did it go?

22 A. Yes. UNPROFOR. And there was a bush there.

23 Q. I'm sorry, madam. Perhaps I wasn't clear. The bullet went in one

24 side of you, came out the other side of you, and then my question is,

25 where did the bullet go.

Page 779

1 A. Yes, yes, the other.

2 Q. And then what happened to your son Nermin?

3 A. At that moment the little one fell. It was against his cheek and

4 it came out his head, the bullet.

5 Q. Was that the same bullet that had just passed through you?

6 A. Yes, the same one. The same one.

7 Q. Before I go on, just one matter. The video we saw of the

8 interview, was that an accurate video of the interview with Investigator

9 Hogan?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What wounds did you suffer, what injuries did you have, as a

12 result of you yourself being shot?

13 A. Well, believe me, I didn't ask the doctor. I left the hospital on

14 my own volition because my little girl was alone, and I didn't ask anyone

15 for anything.

16 Q. Let me ask you a different question, then. Do you still have any

17 effects as a result of being shot on 18 November 1994?

18 A. Da.

19 Q. Could you describe those to the Court, please.

20 A. My complete abdomen was cut. My muscles were damaged; part of the

21 liver. I have terrible pains, especially with the changes of the weather.

22 Q. What effect has this had on you psychologically and emotionally,

23 being shot on the 18th of November, 1994?

24 A. Psychologically, let me tell you ...

25 Q. Could you tell us, madam.

Page 780

1 A. I had these internal liver, muscles. I'm a little bit embarrassed

2 to tell you about all this.

3 Q. How do you feel? What are your feelings as a result of having

4 been shot? That's the question I'm trying to get at now, your emotions,

5 your feelings.

6 A. Very bad, very, very bad.

7 Q. Since being shot, have you been able to hold a full-time job?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How do you support yourself?

10 A. I'm just receiving children's allowance. That's what we live on,

11 myself and my two children.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What work did you do before this incident?

13 Would you direct the question to her.


15 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, before you were shot, what kind of work were you

16 able to do?

17 A. I was cleaning houses, washing windows in other people's houses.

18 Q. As a result of this bullet hitting him, what happened to your son,

19 Nermin?

20 A. They took him down to the morgue. I suppose they buried him

21 afterwards. I only found out about this five or six days later. They

22 were hiding from me the fact that he had been killed.

23 Q. Were you able to go to Nermin's funeral?

24 A. No. They didn't let me.

25 Q. Were you still in the hospital?

Page 781

1 A. I tell you, I should have stayed longer, but seven or eight days

2 later I signed my discharge papers because ...

3 Q. Can you tell the Judges, in just a sentence or two, what kind of a

4 child Nermin was?

5 A. He was a very nice child. It's not because he was mine. And I

6 forgot to say, when we set off, before he was killed, a foreign lady came,

7 patted him on the head and said, I went through the whole of this city but

8 I've never seen a child as cute as this.

9 Q. Since Nermin was killed, have you had another -- a male child?

10 A. I have two boys.

11 Q. What are their names?

12 A. The younger one is called Nermin after the late little Nermin, and

13 the other one is called Edim.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

16 Ms. Isailovic, this witness has been through a very traumatic

17 incident, and I expect that you will cross-examine her but take that into

18 account.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just to answer

20 your comment, I must confess that I feel bad, I feel really bad this

21 morning. I'm also a mother. My son is exactly that age, the age of that

22 poor child. But I'm a Defence counsel, this is a criminal proceeding, and

23 we absolutely have to know what happened.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please go ahead.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And I have other -- I'm continuing

Page 782

1 in that -- for this, because I have documents that go against what

2 Mrs. Sokolovic is actually stating, and because of that --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then put them. Let us proceed.

4 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Sokolovic, my name is Branislava Isailovic,

6 I'm an attorney with the Paris bar. I'm extremely sorry for what happened

7 to you and to your son. However, I have to do my own job, as Defence

8 counsel, Defence counsel of General Milosevic, who is charged here with

9 very serious crimes. And he -- and in order to -- we have to establish

10 facts now. And I really apologise ahead of time. This is probably going

11 to be very unpleasant for you, but unfortunately, I'm duty-bound to ask

12 you all these questions.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had a technical

14 problem regarding documents. I found a 65 ter document coming from the

15 Prosecution, and with the help of Ms. Jovanovic, my assistant, we did

16 everything that the e-court procedure provided for to make sure that she

17 would obtain these documents today and to make sure that these documents

18 would be uploaded into the system. But we're told today that among all

19 documents that had been called by the Prosecution -- this is document 65

20 ter 1484; it is an essential document for this Trial Chamber to establish

21 a very important fact.

22 This is 10 minutes before the break, and we have this technical

23 problem. So we were able to obtain a hard copy of this document. We

24 cannot solve our technical problem. We cannot upload this document. It's

25 not in e-court. Time is running, of course, so I don't know what to do.

Page 783

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you have a hard copy, then proceed.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I only have one hard copy,

3 unfortunately. I don't have extra copies. I wanted to have photocopies

4 made. It is a B/C/S document. It is in B/C/S --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long is the document?

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's really short. This is a

7 medical report.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many pages?

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a longer document, but the

10 portion that we're interested in are four pages. There's just one

11 sentence, actually, that's of interest to me.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you should start and we'll deal with that

13 when we come to it.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll start with another topic.

15 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, if I understood you right, in the picture that you

16 were shown, you were on the pedestrian crosswalk when you were actually

17 shot at. Is that it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you agree that the place you were when the video was actually

20 filmed was different? Do you agree with that?

21 A. I couldn't notice. When I watched it, it looked the same to me.

22 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, when you were at the film -- where the film was

23 actually filmed, did you see a crossing, a zebra crossing?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Is it that zebra crossing, a pedestrian crossing - in B/C/S we

Page 784

1 call it a zebra crossing - is it that exact one you were at when you were

2 with your son when he got killed and you got injured?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you're now telling me that when the video was actually filmed,

5 when you were together with Mr. Barry Hogan from the Prosecution, you were

6 not at the same place you were when you were injured; is that right?

7 A. You know what, I was a little bit confused. It was a little bit

8 below this white where I was with this man on the video. That's what the

9 place was.

10 Q. So if I can confirm what you just said, let me repeat: The exact

11 place was the zebra crossing that you already mentioned in your statement,

12 in your declaration today.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Your son, were you holding him with your own left hand? Is that

15 it?

16 A. No. I was carrying a bag and he was holding to my jacket.

17 Q. Okay. So he was on your left, because earlier we had some

18 problems to figure out where he was -- whether he was on the right or on

19 the left. Can you show me with your hand on which side of you he was.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Okay, fine. Thank you very much. You can sit.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.

23 Mr. Docherty.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Since that was not verbal, could the record reflect

25 the witness indicated her left side.

Page 785


2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is it fair to say that behind you there was the museum, the

4 building of the -- the revolution building?

5 A. Da.

6 Q. I apologise to refresh all these very painful memories, but

7 throughout all that time, he was holding your jacket, or was he moving

8 around? You said earlier that there was a foreign lady that came close to

9 him. So was he sometimes running around you or was he always holding your

10 jacket?

11 A. The whole time he never left me, and the girl was in front of us.

12 Q. At any point in time did he turn towards you, or were you all --

13 both of you were in the same -- looking towards the same direction?

14 A. We walked normally and we talked to each other. My daughter was

15 in front of me. He never left my side.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but we

17 have a problem. I'm also following the B/C/S version, and in B/C/S she

18 said "He turned towards me," and in the English transcript it says -- and

19 there it says -- and I'm going to ask the question, therefore, to make

20 sure that she would confirm this.

21 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, you said earlier in your own language that he

22 would turn around. So was he turning around towards you while you were

23 crossing?

24 A. Yes, we -- we talked to each other. He would turn around

25 occasionally and then look again in front of him and then turn again.

Page 786

1 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, another question that is probably very painful.

2 Your son was seven. How tall was he? I guess he was about as tall as

3 your waist; right?

4 A. Let me tell you, yes, up to my waist, not an inch more.

5 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, when exactly --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, may I ask you, is it your case

7 that this incident didn't take place at all?

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, absolutely not.

9 I'm just trying to establish, thanks to the documents that I have and

10 thanks to the witness' statement, to figure out -- or to help you

11 establish exactly where the shot might have come from. That's what I'm

12 trying to establish.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Okay. Thank you.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, on the way you saw UNPROFOR soldiers; is that

16 true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How could you recognise these UNPROFOR soldiers?

19 A. When we were walking, there was another lady with us - I can't

20 remember her name at the moment - and she told me it's UNPROFOR. I didn't

21 know, but she told me that UNPROFOR soldiers were standing there. And

22 that's how it was.

23 Q. Was this before or after the accident?

24 A. No, I learned that later. I didn't know. There was talk in the

25 hospital.

Page 787

1 Q. At the hospital, did you talk with physicians or maybe with

2 reporters?

3 A. Yes, I talked to a journalist, Petar Sharp, something like that.

4 He came to my house as well. He also came to see me in the hospital and

5 things like that.

6 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, when exactly did you know that the shots

7 originated from the Metalka building? Who was the first person to mention

8 that word "Metalka"? Can you remember that?

9 A. In the hospital, when I came around, there was talk that I had

10 been hit from Metalka. There were other people who were mentioning this.

11 There was more of that. So they said that the shots had come from

12 Metalka.

13 Q. Because earlier you told us that on the photographs you couldn't

14 recognise that building, that it doesn't ring any bell. Is that true?

15 A. Let me tell you, I really don't know this building. I didn't go

16 often to Grbavica. Bistrik and Princip was our main area, and I seldom

17 went there, so I don't know.

18 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, you remember that after what happened there was a

19 police inquiry. You met with policemen, did you?

20 A. I don't remember seeing it. Believe me, I really can't remember.

21 Q. Earlier -- I'm going to show you this -- we had documents, a

22 document that we can't display immediately because of technical problems,

23 but after the break, I'll be able to obtain the report of the inquiry in

24 your own language, in B/C/S, and you can take a look at it.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would rather not have had to ask

Page 788

1 all the questions that have to do with this investigation. However, I

2 think it's maybe time for the break? Am I right or am I wrong about the

3 break?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We still have five minutes until the break.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Very good. Thank you.

6 My assistant is telling me that the technical problem is solved

7 and we now have the document on e-court. We can now display it.

8 Obviously the problem has been solved.

9 Could we please display page 3 of this document.

10 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, can you read? You have no problems reading, or do

11 you have any --

12 A. I can't see it. I don't have my glasses with me.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would you grant me

14 leave to read this in B/C/S and then we will get translation from the

15 booth? Documents have -- the interpreters have the document in B/C/S.

16 It's been zoomed in.

17 Q. Do you still have problems reading it, Mrs. Sokolovic?

18 A. No, no, I can't see it. I can't.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, read the B/C/S so then it will be ...

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you please indicate, before reading out,

21 what is the origin of the document, please.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the origin of the document.

23 This is a document we obtained by the Prosecution when documents were

24 disclosed. It's on the 65 ter list from the Prosecution. I believe that

25 the Prosecution got this document from the Bosnian police. So it's on the

Page 789

1 exhibit list.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, madam. I just don't have the exhibit

3 list in front of me, so could you please say what is the nature of the

4 document? Is it a police report, or what is it?

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. This is a 65 ter

6 document, 1484. This is a police report, the report on a police

7 investigation, which is normally undertaken after this kind of incident

8 from the criminal police. And like here in this -- you always have a

9 report in this kind of incident. On page 3, you have the report where it

10 says "Opis Dogadjaja." So after this incident, the police is stating, and

11 this is at the end of the first phrase --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I didn't realise Ms. Isailovic was

14 going to commence reading the document. Unless this is a prior

15 inconsistent statement by this witness, I object to this witness being

16 impeached with something she did not write and that is not a statement of

17 hers.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: It can be put to her and it would be for her to

19 say whether she confirms the proposition being put by the Defence.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is --

21 the next document I will submit is the medical report, you know, after

22 Mrs. Sokolovic's hospital stay, and she can tell us whether -- but this is

23 a document that comes from the Prosecution. This is not my own document.

24 I managed to find it in the Prosecution's exhibit list.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The fact that it comes from the Prosecution

Page 790

1 doesn't, in any way, make it admissible. It still has to meet the tests

2 of admissibility. But can you show us on the document something

3 indicating its origin? You referred to the heading, the title, but could

4 I have that translated.

5 THE INTERPRETER: "Description of Events."

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: And is it signed by anybody?

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. On page 4 of this

8 document, in the heading, you see that it is "Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Security Services Centre

10 Sarajevo, number H05-2, date 19th November, 1994, Official Report." You

11 have the signature of the report compiled by Salko Cerimagic and Sulejman

12 Pilav. These are always the same names that can be found in these

13 documents coming from the Sarajevo police; it's always the same names.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now and deal with this

15 matter when we return.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I continue with

20 that document that was on the screen?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We had an objection by the Prosecutor. I'm going

22 to ask him to repeat it and to develop it, to elaborate on it, and then

23 I'll ask you to reply.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: May I instead withdraw it. I'll withdraw the

25 objection. As I understand, Ms. Isailovic is going to put a proposition

Page 791

1 to the witness, and I do not object to that.


3 Proceed, Ms. Isailovic.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So I'd like to go back to the page

5 that was displayed on the screen earlier, page 2 -- no, 3, page 3 of this

6 document.

7 Q. In the police report coming from the Sarajevo police, it is stated

8 in the second part of the first sentence that you have here on the screen,

9 under the heading, and if I understood right, Mrs. Sokolovic has a hard

10 time reading, and so -- which is what the Prosecution actually told me, so

11 the interpreter --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, the document on the screen is in

14 B/C/S. There is an English translation, and I wonder if we could have

15 that as well.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That would be very helpful.

17 Do you have the English translation?

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I apologise.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I put forth the translation, if

21 possible, I would suggest a translation.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honours, I have a translation of this document

23 in English. I have hard copies, but I also believe it is in under 65 ter

24 number 1484, and should be in e-court under that number. May I have a

25 moment to double-check the document, Your Honour. I see the registrar --

Page 792

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Even better. That would be even

2 better. We'll display the translation, if we have it.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this document in e-court?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I have a document in e-court in its

5 original form, which is B/C/S; however, there is no translation attached.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us use the hard copy, putting it on the


8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the reason why we couldn't

9 find it in the system.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: If I could give the hard copies to the court

11 personnel, Your Honour.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] In the meanwhile, while the

14 document is circulated, can I continue to ask a few questions to the

15 witness, just to present the document to the witness?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, you met with the police at the hospital; is that

19 true?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did the policeman tell you where the shots that hit you and your

22 son originated from?

23 A. Yes. From Metalka, that's where the shots came from.

24 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your -- I didn't hear your answer.

25 A. They did. They showed me that the shots had been fired from

Page 793

1 Metalka. That's what they said.

2 Q. But the -- did the physicians examine you also at the hospital?

3 A. [No interpretation]

4 Q. Do you remember what hospital this was?

5 A. The Kosevo Hospital.

6 Q. Is it the hospital that's called Klinicki Centar?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm going to take a look at the document. I know you have

9 difficulties reading, so could you look at page 8 of this document.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, excuse me, sorry to intervene. The

11 English translation that we were provided only has four pages.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let her identify the passage and we'll see

13 whether it's in the English translation.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, can you continue? Are you able to continue, go on

16 with this?

17 A. I can continue.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mrs. Sokolovic --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- are you able to continue?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The story about the hospital?

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. At the hospital, the policeman told me that the shots had been

25 fired from Metalka building, but they never came again to ask me anything.

Page 794

1 Q. On the screen, do you recognise this? I know you can't read this

2 document, but do you recognise this document physically? Do you recognise

3 the form that you obtained in the hospital?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On this document there are several sheets of paper. You know when

6 you go to the doctors, you get a report, you get a report saying exactly

7 what kind of treatment you underwent. You know this, don't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On page -- I mean, if we could turn two pages down. On this sheet

10 of paper, the bottom of this page, the physician that operated on you,

11 that treated you in that hospital, wrote a report, a report on your

12 injuries, on the injuries that you were operated on. You understand this?

13 A. [No interpretation]

14 Q. Did you see this document?

15 A. Yes, earlier on, but believe me, as I was suffering a lot of pain

16 at that time, I wasn't really able to go through the whole document.

17 Q. Now I'm going to tell you exactly what is written on this

18 document.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. On the bottom of the page I will read in B/C/S, so you can

21 understand, and the interpreters will translate. And the Trial Chamber

22 already has the English translation.

23 "Paramedially to the left, an entry wound is visible, 0.5

24 centimetres in diameter and bleeding. Paramedially to the right, an exit

25 wound is visible, the surface of the wound being --"

Page 795

1 I can't really see if it's 2 centimetres or not.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not on the translation that we have.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: I don't see that either, Your Honour. The ERN

4 numbers are in sequence, but, no, it is not on the translation that we

5 have. This may be a continuation.


7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, you were a bit confused yesterday -- earlier when

9 we asked you what the left and the right was; isn't that true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So can I actually deduce from this that when people talk about

12 right or left, you're not too sure about where the right is and where the

13 left is.

14 Could you say something in the microphone, please, because when

15 you just nod, it cannot be written on the transcript.

16 A. Can you please explain.

17 Q. Sometimes, do you have difficulties figuring out what you're

18 really talking about when you mention left or right? Are you sometimes

19 confused?

20 A. Yes. I'm a little confused.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty. Do you have the documents?

22 MR. DOCHERTY: I have the document in English, Your Honour. I

23 only have the one copy. However, it could be placed on the ELMO and then

24 the English speakers could press the ELMO button and see the document.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

Page 796

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now, on this screen we're going to have the translation in English

3 of the document we mentioned, so that all the English speakers can follow

4 exactly what the document is about, and then I'll continue asking

5 questions, Mrs. Sokolovic. Do you agree with that?

6 A. Yes, thank you.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on the screen

8 now, and this is what you can read: [In English] "Paramedial left,

9 bleeding, and exit point wound to the paramedial right, and bleeding."

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we see that.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, I will now ask you a question on the sensation of

13 pain. On the pain that you experienced when you got hit --

14 A. To the left.

15 Q. You say that you were hit and injured. We know that. We have the

16 document that proves this. So earlier, when you described this

17 unfortunate incident, if I can sum it up, you say -- you say that you were

18 on the crossing with your son. Your son was on your left; you showed that

19 to the Chamber. He was turning his head towards you to talk to you and

20 you had felt nothing, but your son had already fallen. That's exactly

21 what had happened.

22 A. Da.

23 Q. People that were on -- that were there, because your son fell,

24 took you away from that zebra crossing to pull you behind a car. Is that

25 what happened?

Page 797

1 A. Believe me, I saw that he'd been taken away. I think it was right

2 away in those, what you call those IFOR. I think they took him away

3 because they didn't allow me to turn around. So I didn't know where or

4 how.

5 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, at that very moment, you did not know exactly on

6 which side you were hit; is that true?

7 A. That's true. The left side.

8 Q. We know that now because we have the medical report. But at that

9 time of the shot --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, my objection is that counsel is saying

12 that the medical report is showing that the entrance -- the entrance wound

13 was on the left side, and all that the medical report is saying is that

14 the wound was on the paramedial left. And unless counsel can explain what

15 that adjective means, I don't think she can -- I think she overstates the

16 strength of the document by saying that it shows where the wound was.

17 For the Court's information, there are other documents which I

18 intend to use in my re-examination showing that this entrance wound was on

19 the right-hand side, just as the witness testified on direct.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So right now you're saying that, according to you -- could you

23 tell us exactly which side you were hit? Could you tell us?

24 A. The left side.

25 Q. And you're showing your right.

Page 798

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness did point to her right side.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So I'm back to my question, my earlier -- the question I wanted to

4 ask earlier. When you were hit, you didn't even figure out that you were

5 hit, not right away. So did you know at the time exactly how the bullet

6 went through you, from which side it came from? What exactly did you know

7 about your wound the minute you were hit?

8 A. You know what, nothing at all. I didn't even see the blood

9 because my bag was ...

10 Q. Could you please speak slowly so that we can all understand you.

11 I apologise, Mrs. Sokolovic. Could you please speak slowly.

12 A. No problem.

13 Q. You can continue.

14 A. My bag was there and I didn't feel it, and then there was the bush

15 over there, concealed, where their cars were, and that was the only time I

16 ever saw blood. But I didn't feel anything other than that, until I was

17 beginning to lose consciousness. I fell unconscious. I know the little

18 one was with me.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not get the last portion of

20 the answer.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you just repeat the last part of your

22 answer, Mrs. Sokolovic. You say, "I know the little one was with me," and

23 something else?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I said. I asked

25 the lady at the hospital about the little one. When I was there I asked

Page 799

1 her how she was, and she said she's in a safe place, that she had been

2 taken home.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So could you tell us exactly when you knew that you were wounded

5 with this wound, where this bullet had gone through your body? Could you

6 please tell us? Could you please explain this to us.

7 A. Do you know something, when I came to in the room upstairs, those

8 other ladies who were with me in that room, they were asking me, and then

9 I heard at that moment -- like, you know, like something hot, someone

10 spilled something hot over me, and that's when I realised that I had been

11 wounded.

12 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, after you were told some things, you talked with

13 the police afterwards.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the report, which is the document we saw earlier - page 3 of

16 the document, Your Honour; it's a B/C/S document - the policemen state

17 that first your son was shot and the bullet went through his body and then

18 the bullet hit you and injured you. Did you talk to the police about

19 something that would be of the kind?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty is on his feet. Yes.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I object to that question. Counsel

22 misstated the witness' testimony by saying that it was the witness'

23 testimony that the bullet had struck her son first. The witness'

24 testimony was precisely the opposite, that it struck her first.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought she was referring to the policeman's

Page 800

1 statement, to the report.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, the one that's on the

3 screen. Yes, the statement we have on the screen at the moment.

4 I take the objection of -- Mr. Docherty's objection into account.

5 He is right. So I will reformulate my question.

6 Q. At that very moment when your son fell and when you were injured,

7 did you have any idea of what had happened? Did you have any idea of who

8 got hit first and who got hit second? Did you have any idea about that,

9 when the shot actually occurred?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Docherty, for this

13 objection, which was fully grounded. Now we have the answer. We have the

14 answer that I wanted to obtain.

15 Q. Now, Mrs. Sokolovic, you talk about the bushes behind which you

16 were hidden in order to be protected after your son fell; is that true?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I know Sarajevo, a little bit anyway. Is it fair to say -- and

19 maybe we could see the photograph that the Prosecution showed us earlier.

20 This is a 65 ter photograph, 2835. I'm talking about this place that

21 you're familiar with. I mean, you come from Sarajevo. There are a lot of

22 pine trees. These are trees that do not lose their leaves in the winter,

23 in that period of time.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the

25 photograph. I apologise.

Page 801

1 Q. But without the photograph, could you tell us a few words about

2 this? Were there bushes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it fair to say that all the trees around the museum are always

5 trees that have their leaves, because they're deciduous, conifers?

6 A. I just saw a little of it because I was beginning to lose

7 consciousness, so I wasn't really paying attention. I was just very

8 afraid.

9 Q. But now you still live in Sarajevo. So when you think about that

10 part of town -- for example, now, before you arrived here in The Hague, is

11 it still green, this place in Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, I'm really extremely sorry for what happened to

14 you, and I really want to express all my sincere apologies. You know, as

15 a mother, as a citizen, too, I'm extremely sorry. Maybe I'll be a bit

16 daring, but I'll say it out bluntly: Do you know that the very next day,

17 without your knowing, the photograph of your poor son lying on the ground

18 on this zebra crossing was used for purposes that have absolutely nothing

19 to do with you as a regular citizen of Sarajevo? Do you know that, that

20 this photograph was used?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer that question. What's the relevance

22 of that, Ms. Isailovic?

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm now really

24 putting my case before the witness, and our case is -- deals with the

25 media -- the use of the situation that was made by the journalists. We

Page 802

1 believe that facts were deliberately deformed in order to get an impact on

2 public opinion, because public opinion was controlled and the media were

3 always directing their attention in a specific fashion regarding the armed

4 conflict that occurred in Sarajevo and in Bosnia. And this is the

5 relevance of my question and the crucial importance of my question that

6 I've just put to the witness.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: But how does that -- even if that is so, how does

8 that affect the evidence which is before the Chamber and which we have to

9 assess? I mean, if the media in Sarajevo distorted the facts - and I

10 don't know whether that is so - but if that is so, how does that affect

11 the evidence which is presented before the Chamber for us to assess?

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we looked at the

13 facts, we obtained evidence which proved that the facts actually occurred,

14 and then you're here to make a judgement. That's your job. My job is to

15 present maybe one other document, which will also be presented through

16 another Prosecution witness that was planned for tomorrow, I think. And

17 by chance, while we were studying the documents that were presented

18 through this other witness, I discovered this photograph, I came across

19 this photograph. I'm hesitating because it's awful. I think here people

20 are playing with people's feelings, and we are here to establish the facts

21 and responsibilities.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, the Trial Chamber has a

23 question following your question, because you're asking our witness here

24 to give a political interpretation of the case that you're putting

25 forward, and our witness is not here to make a political analysis of the

Page 803

1 situation. What we need here, as Judges, is to know the truth, know

2 exactly what happened during that incident, what were the wounds, who

3 actually shot and which sides the shot came from. This is what we want.

4 This is what you have to help us with, not on the media analysis or the

5 political analysis that you may present to the witness.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, I agree with

7 you. I agree with you and therefore I withdraw my question. I got maybe

8 a bit carried over, maybe I got a bit carried over by anger. I'm sorry

9 but I withdraw my question.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I must object. The photograph in

11 question of the witness' son was on the monitor during that dialogue. The

12 witness is now quite distraught. It should not have been on the monitor.

13 Could we please take a break to allow the witness to compose herself.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's very unfortunate. Yes, we'll take a

15 10-minute break.

16 --- Break taken at 11.32 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm extremely sorry

20 for what happened earlier. Maybe we didn't really do what we should have

21 done regarding this photograph. I feel a bit guilty of inflicting

22 additional pain to Mrs. Sokolovic, and I really didn't want this to

23 happen. I sincerely apologise, and I will deal with this photograph

24 another way.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We accept what you have said. Let us proceed.

Page 804

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, I wanted to discuss this photograph with you, the

3 photograph of the place where the incident happened. This is the

4 photograph that the Prosecution showed you. It's a picture of Sarajevo,

5 the one we have in our atlas. This is photograph number 1, 65 ter number

6 0617-1144.

7 Earlier you said that it is always that green because of the trees

8 that are planted around the museum. Here, on this photograph -- do you

9 see the photograph on your screen, Mrs. Sokolovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You see those circles. This is where the Prosecution actually

12 filmed you. Is that it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you show us where you were when you were hit and when your son

15 fell, very unfortunately?

16 A. This is where the boy was hit.

17 Q. Please use the pen because I will ask this document, once marked,

18 to be tendered. Mrs. Sokolovic, could you please write on the screen with

19 your pen.

20 A. This is where the boy -- [marks]

21 Q. Please press harder in order to mark the screen.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Are you absolutely sure?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. You're absolutely sure that you were on the sidewalk and not on

Page 805

1 the zebra crossing?

2 A. Yes. I was a little bit confused when I was talking about this

3 for the first time. I was nervous.

4 Q. But now you're telling us that you were on the zebra crossing, or

5 were you on the place that you just marked on the screen? Could you tell

6 us?

7 A. Here. I apologise for being a little bit confused. Here, as I've

8 just shown you, is where I and my little boy were when he was killed.

9 Q. Could you please show us, then, where he fell exactly.

10 A. This is where he fell, right next to me, like this.

11 Q. To be sure that we're -- that we agree, could you tell us once

12 again what direction you were moving in?

13 A. From down here upwards.

14 Q. I can't see. You have to indicate that.

15 A. [Marks]. Towards ...

16 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, maybe this photograph is not very clear for you.

17 Could you tell us what are the buildings that are on the right-hand side?

18 Maybe the usher could help you show this building on the right. Could you

19 tell us what this building is?

20 A. These were the museums.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I see what the witness is

22 pointing to, please?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the museums.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And in front, on the other side?

Page 806

1 A. Believe me, at that moment I didn't look around. Believe me, I

2 don't know. I was lost.

3 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, you live in Sarajevo. You still live in Sarajevo,

4 so you know the city.

5 A. Let me tell you honestly, I don't know. I don't move much around

6 there. I am from Bistrik and I don't go anywhere. It just happened on

7 that occasion that I went down there to fetch some firewood.

8 Q. Yes, Mrs. Sokolovic, if that's the case, if you don't know that

9 area, you say that after the facts you made a statement, you made two

10 statements, actually. You made two statements to the Prosecution's

11 office; the first statement dates November 11, 1995 and the --

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] First, could I get a number for

13 the photograph as it is marked by the witness. We have the transcript to

14 help us understand what the marks that were placed on the photograph

15 actually mean.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as Exhibit

19 D18.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] On the screen, could we please

21 have the statement. Could we have the first page of the statement,

22 please. I apologise. We have some technical problems.

23 Q. Do you remember that you made two statements to the Prosecution's

24 office?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 807

1 Q. So regarding the first statement, you gave that statement on

2 November 14, 1995.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the next page

4 on the screen. We have the B/C/S copy and the English copy.

5 Q. On the second page of this statement, you say, and I quote:

6 "The bullet entered my abdomen on the right and exited on the

7 right. The same bullet injured my son. I can confirm it by the position

8 of where the shooting came, and it was later established by the

9 investigation. I can assure that the shooting came from the direction of

10 Grbavica, which were held by Chetniks. I was well informed that this

11 location was very dangerous from the sniper."

12 And in your statement made on April 19, 2006, which I would like

13 to see on the screen, you say, and I quote --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, in your last question, you said, I

15 quote, and you're quoting from the statement, which should be enlarged, by

16 the way, on the screen, "The bullet entered my abdomen on the right and

17 exited on the right." Is that actually in the statement?

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I'm reading the

19 B/C/S original, and there it says, "on the right-hand side and exited on

20 the left." Maybe there's a problem with the translation. I didn't find

21 that because I was reading the original in B/C/S.

22 Q. Then we have the other statement of April 19, 2006, recently, and

23 you say on the third page, in paragraph 10: "The bullet fired at us came

24 from the direction of the Metalka building at Grbavica."

25 Earlier, Mrs. Sokolovic, when you were testifying here, you said

Page 808

1 that you did not know where Metalka is located and what it is, and earlier

2 you also told us that you're not too familiar with that area where this

3 very unfortunate incident happened. Is it fair to say that?

4 A. Yes. I didn't know where Metalka was, and I very seldom walked

5 around there, to tell you the truth.

6 Q. And in your 1995 statement, you said the Chetniks shot at you.

7 Who told you that?

8 A. Well, that's what the people were saying en masse, that they were

9 the ones shooting at us.

10 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, you lived throughout the war in Sarajevo. Was it

11 always Chetniks that were shooting?

12 A. Well, most certainly it was them.

13 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, in Bistrik, the area where you lived, did you see

14 other soldiers?

15 A. Those were our men from the BH army, the soldiers. My brother was

16 killed. He was in Mostarici, and that's how it was.

17 Q. Your husband, Pasa, was also with the army, in the 101st Motorised

18 Brigade.

19 A. He was at Hrasno Brdo. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Does this mean -- this means that there was a war going on in

21 Sarajevo, with two warring parties. Is that what this means?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 Q. Did you also know that both sides were shooting with sniper

24 weapons and with automatic weapons?

25 A. I couldn't tell you that. I heard that they were firing from that

Page 809

1 side because I think there was no need for our side to be shooting at our

2 side.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Sokolovic. I know that this was a very painful

4 endeavour. Thank you very much.

5 A. Thank you, too.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, what was the date of the police

7 report that you had referred to?

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's November

9 19, 1994. The medical report is dated November 21st. I believe that's

10 when Mrs. Sokolovic left the clinic. And on the medical report there's

11 also the date at which the patient was admitted, November 18, 1994, and

12 left on the 25th of November, 1994. I forgot to ask for this document to

13 be tendered.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were seeking to make a point earlier about

16 the publication in the media. What date was that publication, the date

17 that you were intending to refer to?

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] November 19, 1994, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] May I please get a number for this

21 document, please. It's a 65 ter exhibit.


23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Document 1484.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be admitted as Exhibit D19.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And we also obtained a

Page 810

1 translation, so I think it's -- the translation is automatically tendered;

2 right? Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: Briefly --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Remember, no leading questions in re-examination.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour.

7 Re-examination by Mr. Docherty:

8 Q. Mrs. Sokolovic, Ms. Isailovic was asking you some questions about

9 soldiers. At the place where you and Nermin were shot, was there any

10 fighting going on, any combat, at that time?

11 A. I did not see any soldiers that were there, and then what happened

12 to me. [French on English channel].

13 Q. And in addition, were there -- you said in your last answer that

14 you did not see any soldiers. What about fighting? Was there any?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Mrs. --

17 A. Well, yes, there was shooting. When I was wounded, I heard

18 screams, people screaming from different places when I was still

19 conscious. I was still conscious when the shooting occurred.

20 Q. Yes, I understand, but I was asking, were the two armies fighting

21 each other at the place where you were shot, at the time that you were

22 shot?

23 A. No, no, not that I saw.

24 Q. Now, I want to show you this police report that was being used in

25 your cross-examination.

Page 811

1 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see, I think it's -- I think

2 it's ter number 1484, and specifically within that page bearing ERN number

3 RR25-1020-RR25-1024-ET/Translation. That's the B/C/S. May I inquire,

4 Mr. President, if the English translation is also available? Otherwise I

5 have a hard copy for the ELMO.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it available?


8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The registrar says yes.

9 MR. DOCHERTY: And could the B/C/S page go back one, please. I

10 don't think the two pages are matching up. Page 1 of B/C/S. The

11 displayed page of English is correct. No.

12 Q. I'm just going to read a portion of this in English to you,

13 Mrs. Sokolovic.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, the case manager for the

15 Prosecution, who speaks fluent B/C/S, informs me that the B/C/S page and

16 the English page do not match up, if we could just take a second and

17 correct that.

18 I'm being passed a note stating that I should ask for ERN

19 RR25-1202 in B/C/S. This appears to be correct. Thank you for taking the

20 time needed, Mr. President.

21 Q. Ms. Sokolovic, I'm just going to read a bit of this in English.

22 It describes the wounds that you were admitted to the hospital with, and

23 it states: "The entry wound is on the right, and the exit wound on the

24 left side of the abdomen." Is that your memory of where the bullet hit

25 you that day, when you showed us earlier where the bullet had gone in?

Page 812

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you show us -- I know you've done this before - I apologise

3 for asking again - but could you stand up and just show us -- just stand

4 up, please. Sorry. Once again - and I apologise, I know this has been

5 asked already - what side of you was Nermin on?

6 A. This side.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: For the record, the witness has indicated her left

8 side.

9 Q. What side of you, of you, of your stomach, did the bullet go in?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. What side of your stomach did the bullet come out?

12 A. The left side.

13 Q. All right. Ms. Sokolovic, I apologise, I know it's been a long,

14 difficult morning, but you've just shown us that the bullet went in and

15 came out the same side. May I, with your permission, ask the question one

16 more time.

17 When you were shot, the bullet went in which side? Just point to

18 it, please.

19 A. This side. This is where it came in, and this is where it came

20 out.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: For the record, Your Honour, the witness indicated

22 first her right and then her left side; indicated her right side with her

23 right hand and her left side with her left hand. I just put that on the

24 record since that was non-verbal.


Page 813

1 MR. DOCHERTY: And I have no further questions.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as the trial attorney

3 asked a question, and I didn't intervene because he's -- well, he's trying

4 to deny what is obvious, could I ask a question just to confirm what was

5 said earlier?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, your time has gone, has it not?

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] That's why I was asking the

8 question. That's why I was asking for your leave. But, of course, if I

9 don't have your leave, then I won't ask another question.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what is the basis? Why do you want leave to

11 ask this question?

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I explained -- as I

13 explained earlier, during re-examination, a question was asked that had

14 already been asked. During the cross-examination, the witness already

15 said that she did not know at that time the point of entry or the point of

16 exit, so I think it is not correct to ask her the question again and

17 suggest the answer, as was done when the video was filmed.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question of where the bullet entered and

19 exited was raised in cross-examination, so it was proper for the

20 Prosecutor to re-examine on it. It will ultimately be a matter for the

21 Chamber to make up its mind as to what to believe. So I will not allow

22 you, in the circumstances, to ask the question -- ask her another question

23 at the stage.

24 Judge Harhoff has a question.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 814

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 My question relates to a clarification of the direction in which

3 the witness was walking, and I may ask for assistance from the parties to

4 establish where the witness' residence was in Sarajevo, the Bistrik area.

5 Hrasno, I think we know where it is. So maybe if we could clarify the

6 point to which the witness was returning to so as to have a better idea of

7 the direction in which the witness was actually walking when she was hit.

8 Is that a fair point to make? Can I ask for assistance from the parties?

9 MR. DOCHERTY: Judge Harhoff, you may certainly ask for assistance

10 from the parties. By way of an offer of proof -- the way I would proceed

11 would be to show the witness of Sarajevo and ask her to identify Bistrik

12 and Hrasno where her mother-in-law lived. I do not believe that

13 Ms. Sokolovic would be able to help you with a map.

14 If I may respectfully suggest that we have another witness

15 sometime later in our case who knows the city of Sarajevo, who could point

16 out where these neighbourhoods are and then could translate that into the

17 photographs that were in evidence, the aerial photographs that were in

18 evidence this morning, that would be my preference as to how to proceed.

19 But if you want us to try and get an answer now from this witness, I will

20 do my best.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I ask the Defence? Would the Defence agree to

22 a procedure by which we would show a map to the witness asking her to

23 identify where Bistrik is?

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then I would like to try, actually, to show a map

Page 815

1 of Sarajevo to the witness and ask her if she can point to her residence

2 in Bistrik.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: In that case, Your Honour, I would ask to have 65

4 ter number 2824 called up. And this, you may remember, is the large and

5 complicated map which takes a little while because there's so much data in

6 the file.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think we have asked for a better map - is that

8 still not available - for Sarajevo?

9 MR. DOCHERTY: You have asked for a better map and we're going to

10 get you a better map but have not done so yet.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, let's proceed with what we have, then.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a map of

13 Sarajevo that we have entered into the system. I'm not sure if we do have

14 it. In fact, it's a map for tourists visiting Sarajevo, showing all the

15 streets. So perhaps we could show the part of the map that focuses on the

16 centre of town and encompasses Bistrik. We could show it to you and then

17 you could see whether it satisfies your needs. Could we do so?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, because the map on the screen, or that was

19 on the screen, is not very helpful.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] In fact, the map needs to be

21 turned. And if we could zoom in slightly, it might be easier.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Sokolovic, can you see the map on the screen?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can you find the place where you lived, where your

25 house is? If you're not sure, Mrs. Sokolovic, then please just tell us

Page 816

1 so; but if you think you can find the place in Sarajevo where your house

2 is, then please indicate it on the map.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, as far as I can see,

4 there's Hrasno right there. It's a little confusing.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is this where you live or where your mother-in-law

6 lives?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's my mother-in-law.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is right. And where do you live?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bistrik.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And can you see that on the map?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking, but truth to tell, I

12 can't quite see it.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's fine. Thank you very much, Ms. Sokolovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mrs. Sokolovic, your evidence is concluded.

17 Thank you for coming to give it.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you may now leave.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MS. MARCUS: Excuse me, Mr. President and Your Honours, may I

24 kindly request permission to be excused.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We may be taking the break now.

Page 817

1 Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, will we keep this

3 document that was annotated by the witness, or not?


5 We'll break for 20 minutes.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is in

11 the witness stand. This witness will be testifying pursuant to protective

12 measures, and I can go through all that as soon as the declaration is

13 read, if the Court please.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the witness was not heard by the

19 French booth in any case.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness -- will you repeat the declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: Microphone.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The mike is not on.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 818

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, has the Chamber already considered

2 an application for --

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour, this was one of the ones that was

4 considered last week, and the Defence was asked if they had any objection

5 and indicated they did not.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we granted protective measures?

7 MR. DOCHERTY: You did, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand if the usher holds the microphone

9 up, perhaps a little closer, then it will be audible.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You may sit.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, may the witness be shown the

16 pseudonym sheet.


18 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

19 Q. Please look at that bit of paper and just tell us, yes or no, if

20 that is your name. Please don't say your name, though.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: Could the pseudonym sheet be shown to the Defence

23 and then entered into evidence under seal.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit P90 under

Page 819

1 seal.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may begin.


4 Q. Witness, where do you live?

5 A. In Sarajevo.

6 Q. How long have you lived in Sarajevo?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

8 A. Since April 1992.


10 Q. Witness, on the 21st of February, 1996, did you give a statement

11 to an investigator of this Tribunal?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you review that statement in the Prosecutor's office yesterday

14 before coming to court?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In what language did you review that statement?

17 A. In Bosnian.

18 Q. Was the statement that you read a true and correct description of

19 what you said on 21st of February, 1996?

20 A. Fully.

21 Q. If we asked you all the questions today that the investigator

22 asked you back in February of 1996, would we get the same answers?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let her answer and then we'll hear

24 Ms. Isailovic.

25 Please answer.

Page 820

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the interpreters in

4 the French booth have indicated that there is an interpretation problem.

5 The French booth can't hear the witness and therefore have to rely on the

6 transcript. This is, indeed, a problem for the French booth. I think

7 this goes against the idea of having direct interpretation, so I would

8 request that the technicians please solve this problem.

9 THE INTERPRETER: We would also appreciate that.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm trying to follow all the

11 different languages, but it would be good if the French booth could hear

12 the witness directly.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The technician is on his way and it will be

14 resolved.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Does the Court wish me to proceed or to wait for

17 the technician?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what I have to consider is Ms. Isailovic.

19 You're not getting the translation in French?

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, personally I

21 can follow in B/C/S, but I'm just a bit concerned for those who really

22 want to listen to the French. They are entitled to a direct

23 interpretation of what the witness says rather than having to rely on the

24 transcript.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, in the circumstances, we'll continue,

Page 821

1 because the matter is being attended to.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. President and Your Honours,

3 I move the admission into evidence of the witness' statement of 21

4 February 1996, which is 65 ter number 2832.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes Exhibit P91, Your Honours.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, could that exhibit just received be

8 under seal as it has the witness' name on it.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, under seal.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That exhibit will be under seal, Your Honours.


12 Q. Witness, on 19th of April, 2006, did you again meet with an

13 investigator from this Tribunal?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And was that written down in the form of a report?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand the problem has been resolved.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Did you carefully review that report in the Prosecutor's office

20 yesterday?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. What language did you review that report in?

23 A. In Bosnian.

24 Q. Was that report a true, correct, statement of what you had said on

25 19th of April, 2006?

Page 822

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. If asked all of the questions that the investigator put to you on

3 19th April, 2006, would we get the same answers as are in the report?

4 A. Fully.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President and Your Honours, I move the

6 admission of the witness' statement of 19 April 2006, 65 ter number 2833,

7 I move its admission under seal.


9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P92 under seal,

10 Your Honours.


12 Q. Your statements to the investigators have been placed into

13 evidence, Witness, but I do have a couple of questions by means of

14 clarification, and also some additional material that I wish to ask you

15 about.

16 To begin with, did you -- when you -- I take it that you were shot

17 in Sarajevo during the armed conflict; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And what were you doing, or where were you when you were shot?

20 A. I was riding on a tram.

21 (redacted)

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25 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, if we could please play the video

Page 823

1 clip of the --

2 Your Honour, since we're about to -- if we could pause for a

3 second. We are about to look at evidence on which the witness appears

4 undistorted. May we please view this piece of evidence in private

5 session?


7 [Private session]

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11 Pages 824-837 redacted. Private session.















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8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

10 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.