Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 839

 1                          Tuesday, 23 January 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

 7            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, Judges.

 8                          WITNESS:  WITNESS W-35 [Resumed]

 9                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                          Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic: [Continued]

11       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  This morning we shall proceed with some

12    questions that I'll ask you regarding the witness statement that you gave

13    to the Prosecution.  There are, in fact, two statements; one dated the

14    21st of February, 1996, and the other on the 19th of April, 2006.  Do you

15    remember clearly what you stated on both occasions, Witness?

16       A.   I do.  I do remember.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for counsel.

18            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Docherty.

19            MR. DOCHERTY:  Excuse me for interrupting, Your Honour, but if the

20    witness is going to be questioned regarding these statements, could she be

21    provided with copies to have with her.

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Certainly.  Let the witness be provided with the

23    statements.

24            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask my assistant to call

25    up the statement of February 21st, 1996.

Page 840

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 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15            Do you see that passage of your declaration, Witness?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Now I would like to ask you a few questions.  Would you say that

18    in Sarajevo there were other means of transport, perhaps?

19       A.   The trams would continue running through cease-fires.  The trolley

20    buses also continued to run, those that were still roadworthy.  Sometimes

21    you could notice passenger vehicles driving down streets at considerable

22    speed.

23       Q.   Were there buses in Sarajevo at that time?

24       A.   I'm telling you, the company known as Gras, G-r-a-s, that actually

25    owned the trams still kept them operating.  But very few continued to

Page 841

 1    operate, and those that did continue to operate, at great speed, because

 2    of the shooting.

 3       Q.   Witness, another witness testified before this Court on the 18th

 4    of January, 2007, and I will quote the witness' deposition.  In the

 5    working version of the transcript, on page 14, line 7 -- lines 7 to 12,

 6    it's a very brief passage.  I will read it in English.

 7            [In English] "Yes, this is parallel, and let me show you because

 8    you apparently were not in Sarajevo.  This was the so-called salvation

 9    route parallel to the main road here, but it went behind the Marsal Tito

10    barracks and in front of the railway station.  And as I mentioned

11    yesterday, at all the crossroads, there were large screens placed in order

12    to safeguard the people against sniping."

13            [Interpretation] Have you heard the translation, Witness, through

14    the interpretation?

15       A.   I'm sorry, which translation were you talking about?

16       Q.   Well, I was reading a passage in English.  Have you heard the

17    interpretation in B/C/S?

18       A.   I heard what you were saying throughout.

19       Q.   Very well.  Then I will ask you a question.  Did you know anything

20    about this "salvation route," as the witness described, the witness who

21    appeared on the 18th of January, 2007?

22       A.   All of us in Sarajevo had heard of that, but I'm not familiar with

23    any details.

24       Q.   Does that mean -- then let me continue.  Does that mean that you

25    never took that salvation route yourself?

Page 842

 1       A.   The route that I took that day and the route that the trams

 2    normally took during cease-fires was not called that.  It was not called

 3    the "salvation route."  Those were just regular tram stops still called

 4    the same thing today, Socijalno, Pofalici, Marin Dvor, and so on and so

 5    forth.

 6       Q.   But my question was, did you ever take a bus that - well, we will

 7    see this later on the map - that followed, more or less that road, the

 8    "salvation road," if you know it.  It is a road that is parallel to the

 9    Vojvoda Putnik boulevard.  It has now become Zmaja od Bosne.  And that

10    road was completely protected from any possibility of firing from either

11    side of the confrontation lines between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

12    the army of the Republika Srpska.  Do you agree with what I have just

13    said?

14       A.   I can't agree with you.  I never rode on a bus.  I like trams, as

15    a matter of fact.  My father drove a train; he was a train driver.  I like

16    trams.  I still remember using them in my childhood.  The street that you

17    refer to, the Zmaja od Bosne Street, at the junction where the

18    Elektroprivreda building was, it had burned down by this time because it

19    had been targeted.  So that's where the confrontation line was and that's

20    where the shooting was coming from.  There was a clearing there.

21            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Isailovic, remember the time constraints

22    under which we are operating.  The Prosecution took about half an hour for

23    its examination.

24            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I just

25    would like to clarify a few more points.  That was one point among

Page 843

 1    several.

 2       Q.   So now if we could please call up on the screen a map that we

 3    looked at yesterday already at the end of the hearing, please.  So here we

 4    see a map of Sarajevo.  If we could perhaps enlarge it, please.

 5            On this map, we can see the part of the road, or the part of the

 6    itinerary, that you wanted to take on that day, the 8th of October; do you

 7    agree?

 8       A.   Yes.  That is the route that the tram takes, the same direction

 9    that I was headed; to my left and then towards the right-hand side.  If

10    needed, I can point it out for your benefit.  Down this blue path.

11       Q.   Do you agree that the blue line represents Miljacka?

12       A.   That's at least what I was taught in geography classes.  Blue

13    stands for rivers; green stands for whether mountains or fields, I'm not

14    sure.  But I suppose that this should be river.

15       Q.   Yes, but since there are several rivers in Bosnia, is that the

16    river Miljacka?

17       A.   I live right next to Miljacka.  I don't see the name marked on

18    this map, as a matter of fact; therefore, I can hardly say.  Normally, if

19    you look at maps of Bosnia and Herzegovina - and I think it's still the

20    same today in schools - back in my time, that's one thing I know for

21    certain, the river names were marked on maps.

22       Q.   Yes, but my question is:  Is that indeed the river Miljacka,

23    according to your knowledge, even if it's not written?

24       A.   Even if it's not written, you can actually see it from the tram as

25    you are travelling.  On the way to Bascarsija or the way back, passengers

Page 844

 1    on the tram are able to see the Miljacka river, although it is not quite

 2    blue, rather muddy, I should say.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you stated that the Serbs were everywhere

 4    along the right bank of the Miljacka.  Do you confirm that statement

 5    today?

 6       A.   What I'm talking about is the area in which I lived, in which I

 7    moved about, where we had to cross obstacles, blood, pools of blood and

 8    dead bodies, on our way to get water, to get bread, on our way to visit

 9    other people, and we would be killed on the way there.

10       Q.   So, to your knowledge, all along the right bank, that was in fact

11    the territory under the control of the army of the Republika Srpska; is

12    that true or not?

13       A.   The river Miljacka runs down the right bank, if you look in that

14    direction, that part of Sarajevo, and then the left bank, if you look at

15    the other part of town.  The course of the river was crisscrossed, and the

16    same applied to the city's neighbourhoods, small settlements where those

17    people lived.  Some, for example, resided in Hrasno or Dolag Malta.

18    That's where we would go to fetch water.  We would run across to Grbavica,

19    for example, on the left-hand side, and it is clear that the army of the

20    Republika Srpska were there.  That's where we had to go to fetch water,

21    and that's where we had been shot at from.

22       Q.   Can you tell us, then, for example, do you see on the map, the

23    right-hand side, the lower right, do you see, for example, Bistrik or

24    Sirokaca?  Do we agree that those are areas of Sarajevo on the right bank?

25    Or, for example, you mentioned Hrasno earlier or Dolag Malta.  Was that

Page 845

 1    the territory under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, please?

 2    And would you take the pen and show us.

 3            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would ask that the map be

 4    marked and then tendered as evidence.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see Hrasno, Dolag, and Malta, but

 6    I can't see the streets there, and I'm hardly able to mark them for you.

 7            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   I'm not asking you so specifically.  I'm just asking you to show

 9    the neighbourhood of Hrasno, please.  Would you perhaps mark that with an

10    X.

11       A.   Madam, please.  We were very precise in crossing to the hill of

12    Hrasno, Dolac, and Malta.  We were very precise when we passed under a

13    hail of bullets.  I can't show that on this map simply because the streets

14    are not there.

15       Q.   Could you now show us the neighbourhood of Bistrik, perhaps?

16       A.   [Previous translation continues ...] where I live.  I'm not

17    familiar with that area.

18       Q.   In your statement, and also yesterday, you mentioned a

19    neighbourhood and some buildings, and you say -- perhaps we could again

20    call up your statement of the 19th of April.  You speak of Metalka.

21            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I think there's a

22    problem with calling up the B/C/S version of the document, and yet it is a

23    65 ter document.  So I think perhaps the registrar might help us to call

24    up the B/C/S version; 2833.

25            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The registrar is making the effort.

Page 846

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  I don't have the B/C/S version in e-court,

 2    unfortunately.

 3            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the English

 4    version.  There are some technical problems, apparently, for calling up

 5    the B/C/S version, so could the interpreters perhaps help us out.

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's hear Mr. Docherty.

 7            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, the document on the screen has the

 8    name of the witness.  The witness has a pseudonym, as a protective

 9    measure.  Could we please go into private session while we use this, and

10    could we please redact the last few minutes before it goes out on the live

11    feed.  Thank you.

12            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Let that be done.

13                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14            Mr. Docherty, there is no need to redact anything.

15                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16            JUDGE ROBINSON:  There's no need to go into private session.

17            Do you have a view on this, Mr. Docherty?

18            MR. DOCHERTY:  Only this, Your Honour.  I, of course, take your

19    word that there's no need.  I'm just looking at the document on the

20    monitor with the witness' name, but perhaps that's not going out of the

21    courtroom or something.

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The court deputy/usher has indicated it is not.

23            MR. DOCHERTY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we still don't see

25    the B/C/S version on the screen, so may I just go ahead with the help of

Page 847

 1    the interpreters?

 2            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, do that, because we are losing time.

 3            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So it is on page 3, paragraph 9.

 4    I would read it out and ask the interpreters to please interpret.

 5       Q.   [In English] "I'm sure that the tram in which you were travelling

 6    was shot at from the Metalka building in Grbavica."

 7            [Interpretation] And then there's paragraph 10, and you say the

 8    following:

 9            [In English] "... line from the place we were shot, which was the

10    Metalka building in Grbavica, which I would say was about 200 metres

11    away."

12            [Interpretation] And then to come back to paragraph 9, the fourth

13    sentence of that paragraph:

14            [In English] "There were no military institutions, military

15    vehicles or any other military equipment in the vicinity of the place the

16    tram was shot at.  The closest military institution to the place the tram

17    was shot, it was the Tito barracks, which was the distance of about two

18    tram huts."

19            [Interpretation] So that was your statement, and my question is

20    whether, as you said you only really knew the neighbourhood in which you

21    lived, and in fact you didn't know precisely the military installations in

22    Sarajevo and their vicinity.  Is that true?

23       A.   Whenever a cease-fire was in force, during the war and before, I

24    always took the same tram lines, Socijalno, Pofalici and on to the

25    Presidency, for the simple reason that I have family living on the street

Page 848

 1    across the way from Skenderija.  I knew those tram lines and I knew them

 2    really well ever since I was a little child.

 3       Q.   Witness, now you're speaking about the tram lines?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Yes, but my question was regarding to the confrontation lines

 6    between the two armies that were fighting in and around Sarajevo and in

 7    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Were you aware of that conflict?

 8       A.   I already told you that during cease-fire and war, we took the

 9    same lines as we are taking today, and we all know all these buildings to

10    the left and to the right to this very date.  However, most of them,

11    including Metalka, were demolished.

12       Q.   Well, perhaps it will be third time lucky.  I will try again.  Do

13    you know anything about the confrontation lines between the two warring

14    factions in Sarajevo?

15       A.   Are you referring to specific facilities?  Can you please repeat

16    it, in which particular location you're interested in in connection --

17    with what I have in front of me.

18       Q.   I can't discuss the locations with you because you said earlier

19    that you didn't know Sarajevo well enough to be able to tell us anything

20    about various neighbourhoods.  So my question is:  Did you know that there

21    were confrontation lines, front lines, existing between the two armies,

22    that is to say, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of the

23    Republika Srpska?

24       A.   Please, even small children know about that.  I'm just telling you

25    about the route on which I was wounded.  If I understand you correctly,

Page 849

 1    that's the only thing I can talk to you about; otherwise, please don't

 2    bother me with that.

 3       Q.   And yet I heard you say, "Please don't bother me," "Don't tire me

 4    out," is what I also heard in interpretation.

 5       A.   I apologise if you understood it literally.  I'm focused only on

 6    this particular tram route while I'm watching the slide in English, and

 7    that is what I was focused on, and your question was whether I knew about

 8    the front lines between the parties.  Well, everybody knew that.

 9            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's get on with the cross-examination.  You're

10    well past half an hour.

11            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

12       Q.   Just one last question.  You have been speaking about military

13    objectives, so did you know precisely where the military installations

14    were located in Sarajevo; namely, in your neighbourhood that was, I think,

15    near Grbavica?

16       A.   I didn't know.  We didn't have time to venture out and look where

17    these things were because most of our lives during the four years were

18    spent in cellars.

19       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

20            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I am finished with my

21    cross-examination.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  And, Ms. Isailovic, you had asked all the

23    pertinent questions you wished to ask?

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I hadn't finished all my

Page 850

 1    questions, but of course I want to comply with your ruling.

 2            JUDGE ROBINSON:  How many more questions do you have that are

 3    pertinent?

 4            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that all my

 5    questions are relevant, but perhaps the most relevant --

 6            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll give you another five or seven minutes.  One

 7    has to balance efficiency and expeditiousness with fairness.  So another

 8    seven minutes.

 9            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10            So I would ask that a map be called up.  I asked my assistant to

11    do so.  I think we already looked at this map yesterday, picture number 5

12    in the photo album offered by the Prosecution.  I think this might take a

13    moment.  So we will see on the screen -- could we perhaps enlarge the

14    picture a bit so that we can actually see the railroad -- the tracks.

15       Q.   Witness, I still have five minutes.  So you were describing the

16    fact that the incident occurred in the area of the tram line between the

17    museum and the centre of town; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And now, if you look at this picture, we see -- well, you spoke of

20    an S, something like an S, perhaps the first part of an S.  Do you

21    remember approximately what the position or location of the tram was at

22    the time of impact on the tram, please?  And if you could show us on the

23    screen using the pen and circling it.

24       A.   I'm going to mark the line as I was approaching the place of the

25    accident.  [Marks].  I was here, next to the middle door of the tram, and

Page 851

 1    this is where the front door of the tram was.  And that's the Socijalno

 2    stop.  This is where I was standing, holding the pole, because I was on

 3    the steps.

 4       Q.   If I understood you correctly, at the time when you were hit, is

 5    that the area where you made -- you drew a thicker line, so to speak?

 6       A.   [No interpretation]

 7            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are not getting any interpretation.  Would you

 8    please stop.  We have had no interpretation in English.

 9            Would you repeat the answer so we can have it interpreted.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived in the tram from the

11    Socijalno stop, marked with S.  I put an arrow indicating the direction of

12    the tram.  The front section of the tram passed, which means the front

13    door, as we call it, because each tram has three doors.  I was standing at

14    the middle door, facing the pedestrian crossing, the street, the Metalka

15    and this part, and I was holding the pole at the steps of the tram when

16    the shots were fired at the tram.

17            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

19            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question.  Before

20    finishing up, I would ask the registrar to mark this picture so that it

21    may be tendered as evidence, please.

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let that be done.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  It will be admitted as Exhibit D21, Your Honours.

24            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

25            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Docherty, any re-examination?

Page 852

 1            MR. DOCHERTY:  No re-examination, Your Honour.

 2            Before the next witness comes in, may I put briefly two things on

 3    the record.  They will be short.

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5            MR. DOCHERTY:  I just wanted to -- I don't think I did this

 6    yesterday.  But so that the pseudonym sheet matches the witness, I should

 7    put on the record that this is Witness 35.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

 9            MR. DOCHERTY:  Thank you:

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness 35, that concludes your evidence.  Thank

11    you for giving the evidence, and you may now leave.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Your next witness, Mr. Docherty.

15            MR. DOCHERTY:  Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution calls

16    Slavica Livnjak.

17            JUDGE ROBINSON:  It has been suggested that we should have

18    Ms. Isailovic's map tendered into evidence, as it is a better map.

19            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, I also have a copy of the same map

20    that the Defence was using yesterday.  I think the Prosecution map is a

21    bit bigger and shows a bit more of the city.  I should also say, though,

22    that we got this late in the afternoon yesterday.  It has not yet been

23    loaded into e-court.  It will be available in e-court tomorrow.  I have

24    one hard copy for today.

25                          [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 853

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber have a copy of your map,

 2    Ms. Isailovic, until the Prosecution brings another one?

 3            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  You can do that.

 5            Please call the witness.

 6                          [The witness entered court]

 7            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.  Please

 8    make the declaration.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                          WITNESS:  SLAVICA LIVNJAK

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13            JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.

14            I see the time for this witness is one hour for both parties.

15            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, following up on the discussion that we

16    had yesterday, Ms. Livnjak will be giving testimony pursuant to Rule 92

17    ter.  However, I will, then, be going beyond that a little bit, and that

18    will be the marking of aerial photographs and of maps that the Chamber, I

19    think, has become familiar with with these various sniping witnesses.

20    That is not in the statements that I will tender.  However, I still intend

21    to conclude the direct examination of this witness in no more than 20 to

22    30 minutes.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, Mr. Docherty.

24                          Examination by Mr. Docherty:

25       Q.   Madam, could you please begin by introducing yourself, by telling

Page 854

 1    us your name.

 2       A.   Slavica Livnjak.

 3       Q.   Ms. Livnjak, on the 20th of November, 1995, did you give a

 4    statement to an investigator of this Tribunal?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.

 6       Q.   And since arriving in The Hague a few days ago, have you read that

 7    statement over carefully?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   In what language did you read the statement?

10       A.   In Bosnian.

11       Q.   Was the report of your statement that you read accurate?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And if today we went and asked all the same questions the

14    investigator asked on 20th November, 1995, would we get the same answers

15    as he got then?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, I'd move for the admission of that

18    statement --

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20            MR. DOCHERTY:  -- which is ter number 2849.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P94, Your Honours.

22            MR. DOCHERTY:

23       Q.   Later on, Ms. Livnjak, on the 24th and 25th of April, 2006, did

24    you give another statement to a different investigator but also from this

25    Tribunal?

Page 855

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And since arriving in The Hague a few days ago, have you taken the

 3    opportunity to read that statement over very carefully?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   In what language did you read it?

 6       A.   In Bosnian.

 7       Q.   And when you read it over, did you find that report to be

 8    accurate?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   If you were asked the same questions today that the investigator

11    asked you back in April of last year, would we get the same answers?

12       A.   Yes.

13            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, I move into evidence the second

14    statement of 24 and 25 April 2006.  The 65 ter number is 2850.

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be admitted as Exhibit P95, Your

17    Honours.

18            MR. DOCHERTY:

19       Q.   Ms. Livnjak, over and above what is in these statements, I'm going

20    to ask you some questions about where you were and where your tram was on

21    the day that it was shot, which I believe was the 8th of March, 1995.

22    First of all, is that the right date?  Excuse me, the 3rd of March.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Whereabouts do you work?  What do you do for a living?

25       A.   I'm a tram driver.

Page 856

 1       Q.   In Sarajevo?

 2       A.   Yes, in Sarajevo.

 3       Q.   How long have you been driving a tram in the city of Sarajevo?

 4       A.   It will be close to 30 years now.

 5       Q.   And how long have you lived in Sarajevo?

 6       A.   I was born in Sarajevo.

 7       Q.   Do you know the city quite well?

 8       A.   Yes, I do.

 9       Q.   Now, I'm going to ask you to take a look at a map.

10            MR. DOCHERTY:  And unfortunately we don't have it for the monitor,

11    so if I could ask the usher's assistance.

12       Q.   Did you look at this map yesterday?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Is it an accurate map of the city of Sarajevo?

15       A.   Yes, it is.

16            MR. DOCHERTY:  For the record, Your Honours, this is another copy

17    of the map already in evidence as Exhibit D21.

18       Q.   Ms. Livnjak, is there a tram line that runs along a street, and

19    forgive me if I mispronounce the Bosnian language, Zmaja od Bosne?

20       A.   Zmaja od Bosne, yes.

21       Q.   Do you see Zmaja od Bosne on the map that's in front of you?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   And could you, with the marker, just show us -- let's get our

24    bearings first.  Could you show us, please, the Miljacka river.

25       A.   Here it is.

Page 857

 1       Q.   And is that indicating the blue line that is sort of winding its

 2    way through the center of the map?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Above that we see a yellow straighter line.  What is that yellow

 5    straighter line?

 6       A.   That's the road, Zmaja od Bosne.

 7       Q.   And is that the road along which your tram -- is there a tram

 8    route along Zmaja od Bosne?

 9       A.   Yes, there is.

10       Q.   I'm going to show you some aerial photographs of this scene as

11    well.

12            MR. DOCHERTY:  If I could ask the court officer to please call up

13    aerial photo number 1, which is 65 ter number 2826.

14       Q.   Does this photograph show you a scene that is familiar?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   On the right-hand side of the monitor you'll find a silver pen,

17    and if you press on the monitor, it will make a mark.  Never mind.

18            Could you take the silver pen and trace the tram line so that all

19    of us can see it.

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, please, whether on the day in March

22    when your tram was shot, by putting an arrow on that line, what direction

23    the tram was going?  So put an arrow to show the way the tram was going.

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   Thank you.  As a tram driver, you noticed that the tram tracks

Page 858

 1    have a curve at the place that you have just drawn; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes, that is an S-curve, as we refer to it.

 3       Q.   And as the tram is negotiating that S-curve, what happens to the

 4    tram's speed?

 5       A.   The tram was fired upon.

 6       Q.   I'm sorry if my question was unclear.  My question was:  When you

 7    are making that S-curve, does the -- can the tram keep going at the same

 8    speed?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   What does the tram have to do in order to get round that S-curve

11    safely?

12       A.   It has to reduce speed.

13       Q.   Can you tell us, please, the last thing I want you to mark on this

14    aerial photograph, could you put a large X at the spot where your tram was

15    hit in March of 1995.

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.   Thank you.

18            MR. DOCHERTY:  Mr. President and Your Honours, could this

19    marked-up aerial photograph please be introduced into evidence.

20            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let that be done.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P96, Your Honours.

22            MR. DOCHERTY:  And may I ...

23            And now may I please ask the court officer to call up aerial

24    photograph number 3.  The 65 ter number would be 2825.

25       Q.   This, I believe, is already in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit

Page 859

 1    P 93.

 2            Witness, is that photograph -- can you make out that photograph

 3    and the things on it?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   I'm going to ask you to make a couple of marks on it.  First of

 6    all, just for our orient --

 7       A.   Yes.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I regret to say that the computer has, to use the

 9    language that was used, "crashed," and it will take a minute to restart

10    it.

11            MR. DOCHERTY:  I would go on, Your Honour, but the balance of my

12    examination is all going to involve things with this photograph.

13            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I understand.  I also regret to say that, in my

14    view so far, we haven't profited from the e-court system.  No doubt it

15    will improve and efficiency will be enhanced, but we'll wait for that.

16            Judge Mindua has a question in the meantime.

17            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, while we're waiting for

18    technology to work, I have a few questions.  When exactly did the tram --

19    was the tram hit?  Do you remember the day?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it was sometime in

21    March, March 1995.  Actually, it was hit several times.

22            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] At that moment, was there a truce

23    or a cease-fire in the city and the surroundings?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] What public or political authority

Page 860

 1    had announced that there was a cease-fire so that your company actually

 2    decided to run the trams, thinking that it was safe?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, an agreement had been reached

 4    between the Bosnian and the Serb politicians.

 5            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] One last question.  Which military

 6    forces controlled the city and its surroundings at that moment.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The city itself was in the hands of

 8    the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but once passed Miljacka - I'm talking

 9    about the river bank - that particular area was being held by the army of

10    the Republika Srpska.

11            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Sorry, one last question, please.

12    You were driving that tram, so could you estimate where the shots that

13    actually hit your tram came from?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the right, the right-hand side.

15            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

16            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We now have the photograph, Mr. Docherty.

17            MR. DOCHERTY:  I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

18       Q.   To begin with, Witness, could you please mark the intersection -

19    we saw it more clearly on the earlier photograph - where the gunfire hit

20    your tram.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   Thank you.  And then, madam, as a result of living in Sarajevo all

23    of your life, have you become familiar with a building called the Metalka

24    building?

25       A.   Yes.  I did pass it very often.

Page 861

 1       Q.   Is the Metalka building on the photograph that's on the monitor in

 2    front of you?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Using the pen, would you draw an X through the Metalka building.

 5       A.   [Marks]

 6            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, could this marked-up aerial

 7    photograph --

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Docherty.

 9            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, could the marked-up aerial photograph

10    be admitted into evidence?

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be admitted as Exhibit P96, Your

13    Honours.

14            Registrar's correction, Your Honours:  That will be admitted as

15    Exhibit P97.

16            MR. DOCHERTY:

17       Q.   Witness, a few minutes ago, in response to a question from Judge

18    Mindua, you testified that you were unable to recall the exact date in

19    March of 1995 on which your tram was shot at; is that correct?

20       A.   The 3rd, the 5th.  I don't know.  I can't remember.

21       Q.   Would it refresh your memory if you looked at either of the

22    statements that you gave to the ICTY investigator?

23       A.   Yes.

24            MR. DOCHERTY:  Could I ask the court officer to please display the

25    first -- actually, it would be the second page beyond the cover page of 65

Page 862

 1    ter number 2849 in the Bosnian language.

 2       Q.   Madam, can you read what is on the screen?

 3       A.   Yes.  I see it now.  The 3rd of March, 1995, 12.15.

 4            MR. DOCHERTY:  Ms. Case Manager, could we please have the

 5    panoramic 360-degree view of sniping incident number 14 displayed on the

 6    monitor.

 7       Q.   Madam, looking at what is on the screen, is that a fair and

 8    accurate picture, looking towards the Metalka building, of the location

 9    where your tram was shot on the 3rd of March, 1995?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And can you tell us on this picture from which direction the shots

12    came?

13       A.   From -- I'm not sure how, I can indicate that.  From between the

14    museum and the Faculty of Philosophy.

15       Q.   Is there a street that runs between those two buildings?

16       A.   Yes.  There's a zebra crossing there.

17       Q.   And using that as a reference, can you tell us, did the -- did the

18    shots come down that street?

19       A.   Yes.

20            MR. DOCHERTY:  Ms. Case Manager, if we could please rotate this

21    through 360 degrees.

22       Q.   At the end of that, madam, I will ask you if this whole 360-degree

23    view was a fair, accurate, picture of this particular spot.

24            Would you stop there.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 863

 1       Q.   Stop the rotation.  Do you see the building --

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3            MR. DOCHERTY:

 4       Q.   Do you see a tall building on the screen?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And in your statements you talk about pulling into the shelter of

 7    a building in order to get the wounded off your tram.  Is the building you

 8    stopped behind on the screen now?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Which building is it?

11       A.   The tall one.

12            MR. DOCHERTY:  If we could continue the rotation to the end,

13    please.  Thank you.

14       Q.   Madam, I have three last questions and then I'll be done.  On the

15    day that your tram was shot, can you tell us what the visibility was like?

16    And by that I mean, was there fog, leaves on trees, anything that made it

17    hard to see more than a few hundred metres?

18       A.   Visibility was good.  It was a bright, sunny day.

19       Q.   Were there any Bosnian army troops or other military facilities of

20    the Bosnian army close by to the tram when it was shot?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Was there any military combat going on near the tram at the time

23    it was shot?

24       A.   None.

25            MR. DOCHERTY:  No further questions.

Page 864

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 2            Ms. Isailovic.

 3            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  My name is Branislava

 6    Isailovic, I'm an attorney with the Paris bar, and I represent General

 7    Dragomir Milosevic, the accused in these proceedings.

 8            I'm going to ask a few questions, as is usually done here, and

 9    it's going to have to do with what you stated both in your written

10    statements to the Prosecution, which are introduced as evidence here.

11            You said that you remember everything you stated on November 20th,

12    1995, and on April 23 and 24, 1996.  Do you still confirm that?  Do you

13    still maintain that?

14       A.   Yes.

15            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up the map

16    that the Prosecution used earlier, map -- the 65 ter number 2826.  If

17    we're lucky, the gods of technology will be with us and the map will be

18    displayed extremely soon.

19       Q.   So before looking at the display, earlier when asked by the

20    Prosecution, you said that all this occurred during a curve.  The impact

21    occurred while you were taking that curve at that place that's -- well,

22    now we have the map on the screen, at the place you were shown earlier.

23    Do you confirm that?  Could you please answer?

24       A.   Yes.  As I was entering the curve.

25       Q.   Could you tell us today whether your tram was in two parts, two

Page 865

 1    parts connected by some kind of -- I can't find the exact word.  This is

 2    really technical.  It's some kind of articulation, hinge.  So was it a

 3    tram with two cars connected together?

 4       A.   Yes, a so-called accordion.  That's the term that we use.

 5       Q.   Okay.  Accordion, that's the technical word I was looking for.  So

 6    the two cars of the tram were connected by this device?

 7       A.   That's right.

 8       Q.   As the tram driver, you were in front; right?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Is the first car longer than the second car, or are both cars --

11    or is it the other way around?

12       A.   The first is slightly longer than the second.

13       Q.   And the doors -- there are two doors in the front car and there is

14    a third door in the second car, after that accordion; right?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Could you please tell us where the -- how many doors there are to

17    that tram, at least in the first car, before the so-called accordion?

18       A.   The first car has two and the second also has two.

19       Q.   Thank you.  The Prosecutor asked you a question earlier.  He asked

20    you what happens when you start entering into the curve, what happens to

21    the speed of the tram.  I'm sure you remember this question that was put

22    to you.

23       A.   Can you please repeat that.

24       Q.   Yes, no problem.  Earlier the Prosecution asked you a question

25    about the tram.  He asked, What happens to the tram when you're going to

Page 866

 1    the curve?  What happens to the speed of the tram?  I can tell you what

 2    your answer was.  You said that you slow down in order to be able to

 3    negotiate the curve.  Is it true?

 4       A.   Yes, that's true.

 5       Q.   So this is the question that I would like to ask you:  You've been

 6    driving the tram for 30 years.  So physically, what happens to the

 7    position of that accordion and to the second car when you're negotiating

 8    to take the bend?  I'd like to know whether the tram really stays in a

 9    straight line or whether it changes, its shape actually changes, because

10    you're negotiating the curve, or you're going to negotiate the curve.

11       A.   Well, gradually, as you enter the bend, it begins to bend.

12       Q.   Well, when you're in the curve, because on the photograph we see

13    that there are two actual curves -- you see that on the screen; right?

14    It's an S, so you go right and then you go left; is that it?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   At that very moment, can you tell us what the tram looks like?

17    Could you describe it, whether its shape actually changes.  Would it look

18    like any kind of object that would be familiar?

19       A.   Well, as it enters this bend, it sort of bends and it looks like

20    the moon, you know.

21       Q.   The moon?  You mean yesterday's moon, like it was yesterday, last

22    night?

23       A.   I didn't see it.

24       Q.   Because it can be a full moon and then it's a circle, or it can be

25    a crescent.

Page 867

 1       A.   Full moon.

 2       Q.   No, that can't be.  What exactly -- what shape are you talking

 3    about?  I'm sure there was a little problem with translation.  You

 4    said "mladi mesec"?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   But "mladi mesec" is not full moon, it's crescent.  There was a

 7    translation error.  So it's not like a full moon, like a circle.  It's not

 8    that kind of moon that you were talking about.  "Mladi mesec" is not when

 9    the moon is full, when it's a circle.

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Thank you.  That's clear now.  Is it fair to say that when the

12    train has this crescent shape, both cars are exposed but in different

13    areas?  Is that true?

14       A.   Yes, but it really depends on its position.

15       Q.   Of course.  But can we agree to say that when the tram actually

16    adopts this crescent shape, the two cars are -- the two cars face

17    different sides, and they're facing two different sides.

18       A.   Yes, but that's once it's reached the --

19       Q.   That's in the curve.  That's what we -- right into the bend.  Now,

20    the day your tram was hit, there was a criminal investigation.  Were you

21    involved in that?  Do you remember it?

22       A.   Yes, there were --

23            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, here again I have a

24    document that has not been introduced by Prosecution as evidence, even

25    though I obtained it from the opposite party.  This is document 739 in the

Page 868

 1    65 ter list.  It's a -- it's the criminal investigation report.  I guess

 2    that there is an English translation; unfortunately, we did not get it.

 3    However, I wanted to use this report regarding the on-site inspection

 4    after the incident, and I would like -- I would like to be granted leave

 5    to use this report.  It's 65 ter number 739.  If I could just get

 6    confirmation from the witness.  On screen we have this report, and if you

 7    have no objection, can I please use it?

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We may be handicapped by the lack of

 9    translation.

10            Does Mr. Docherty have this document translated?

11            MR. DOCHERTY:  Your Honour, in Bosnian, this is a several-page

12    document.  I've just been looking and I found -- I have found one page.

13    That doesn't mean I don't have the others, just that I'm still looking.

14    We can proceed with the interpretation.  It will be fine.

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's time for the break.  We'll break for 20

16    minutes.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Isailovic.

20            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   We were on this report, and one of its pages is displayed on the

22    screen.  Witness, you told us earlier that you remember this criminal

23    investigation that was conducted after the incident.

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   The policemen went on site.  They made a statement, and in the

Page 869

 1    text, in the dense part of this text, this is what we can read.  We can

 2    read that tram number 268, arriving towards Bascarsija, was hit in the

 3    second car, between what we call this accordion and the third door from

 4    the front, from the driver's seat.

 5            Can you see that on the screen?

 6       A.   Yes, I can.

 7       Q.   Did you note the same thing yourself?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Earlier you said that there are two doors in the second car, after

10    the accordion, and you said that this car is shorter than the first car.

11    Could you tell us where that third door is located, the first door after

12    the accordion?  What is the distance between the accordion and that third

13    door?

14       A.   Well, approximately, they're about 1 or 2 metres from the

15    accordion; the accordion and then the door after that.

16       Q.   Would it be 1 metre or 2 metres?  Is it closer to 1 metre or

17    closer to 2 metres?

18       A.   Well, I didn't build the tram so I can't know that.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember the victims that were in the tram?  Do

20    you remember where they were sitting?  Were they in the first car or in

21    the second car?

22       A.   In the second car.

23       Q.   Thank you.

24            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, could my case manager please

25    display part of the map that we saw earlier and that we presented

Page 870

 1    yesterday.  I'm calling it our map.  But on this map you see the part of

 2    town where you have the place the tram was hit.  Of course we need some

 3    time for the map to be displayed.  It is displayed now.  Could it please

 4    be rotated in the right direction and zoomed in a little bit.

 5       Q.   In your statement, Witness, you talked about other dangerous

 6    areas.  Do you remember that?  So is it fair to say that you stated that

 7    the Holiday Inn, which is the place where the incident actually occurred,

 8    there's also Pofalici and Bristol.

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Could you please show us on the map these two locations, Pofalici

11    first, please, where the tram ride was dangerous.  That's where the tram

12    road -- where it was dangerous.  That's Pofalici.  Mm-hmm.

13       A.   [Marks]

14       Q.   It's this junction, so it's right before where the red line stops.

15    It's right before the place where the incident of March the 3rd actually

16    occurred; am I right in saying that?

17       A.   This is Elektroprivreda.  That's it.

18       Q.   This is a dangerous place.  Could you please mark this with a P,

19    like Pofalici, as being a dangerous area.

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   And you're also talking about Bristol.  Can we see that location

22    on the map?

23       A.   No.  This map is a small one.  I can't.  I can't.

24            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I no longer have any

25    map.  I have a bigger map.  Could we please have it on the ELMO, maybe, in

Page 871

 1    order to see exactly what location we're talking about.  It would be

 2    interesting to see where the Bristol is actually located.

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, do that.

 4            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If you could please move it around

 5    slightly.  Thank you.  I think it's focused.

 6       Q.   So could you tell us exactly where Bristol is on this map.

 7       A.   Just a moment, please.  Approximately here.

 8       Q.   But we also saw this on the other map.  Maybe it's best to have

 9    the markings on a single map.  You're absolutely sure it's in that

10    location, in that area, close to Hrasno?

11       A.   Yes.  A little bit further from Hrasno.

12            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If that's the case, since that

13    location can be seen on the map we used earlier, could we please display

14    the map that we saw earlier, the one that was annotated?

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  We're now moving from map to map.

16            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's number D.  I'm told I have to

17    give the number of this map.  It's D00-02-61.

18       Q.   So on this map, could you please locate Bristol.  Is that the same

19    place that you already marked?

20       A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

21       Q.   So this is another dangerous location, at least for trams.  Could

22    you please tell us what's there?  We see Pofalici.  That's at the foot of

23    Humsko Brdo.  Do you know Humsko Brdo?  It's a hill.

24       A.   Yes.  Pofalici is there, but it's pretty far from Hum.  I mean the

25    tram tracks are pretty far.

Page 872

 1       Q.   And on the other side, on the right bank of the Miljacka, is

 2    Hrasno, which is a lot closer to that location.  Do you agree with that?

 3       A.   Yes, but Grbavica is close as well.

 4       Q.   But the Hrasno neighbourhood, are there any highrises in Hrasno?

 5       A.   Hrasno?  Yes.

 6       Q.   So is it fair to say that Hrasno was on a territory controlled by

 7    the BiH army?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And is it fair to say that the confrontation line was between

10    Hrasno and Grbavica?

11       A.   I couldn't tell you that because I didn't take part in any of that

12    in order to be able to have this knowledge.

13       Q.   Witness, in your statement you say that throughout the war you

14    lived in Sulejman Filipovic Street.  Is that true?  And you said it was

15    very dangerous there.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Why was it so dangerous?

18       A.   Because of the attacks, the shelling, the shooting, the sniping.

19       Q.   Is it fair to say that your street -- I looked at the map, but

20    your street is in Dobrinja; right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Is it fair to say that Dobrinja is in Novo Sarajevo?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   No?  Then will you please have the map on the ELMO.

25            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] But first I'd like to introduce

Page 873

 1    the other map into evidence.  We'll do that later anyway because we

 2    already have the map on the ELMO.  Can we move it to the right slightly so

 3    we can see the Dobrinja.  It's the eastern part -- no, it's the

 4    south-east -- no, the other side, please, south-west.  And move it up

 5    slightly, if possible.  A bit more.  No, the other way around.  The other

 6    way around, please.  Yes.  Thank you.

 7       Q.   Witness, on this map now, do you see your neighbourhood, Dobrinja?

 8       A.   Yes, I do.

 9       Q.   I --

10            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me, could you make the witness indicate the

11    place on the map, please.

12            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13       Q.   Please, Witness, could you show Dobrinja on the map, on the ELMO.

14       A.   [Indicates]

15       Q.   Is it true that this neighbourhood of Dobrinja was split between

16    the units of the BiH and the units of the army of Republika Srpska?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Now, could you please show us your street, where you lived.  And

19    approximately, so we know exactly what part of the neighbourhood you lived

20    in.  I'm just asking for a rough estimate.  You're closer to Nedzarici or

21    closer to Lukavica?

22       A.   It's closer to Nedzarici.

23       Q.   Thank you.  I'm sure you know that right above was a hill or a

24    mountain called Mojmilo.  Do you know it?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 874

 1       Q.   Can you please show us where it is, to see where it was located in

 2    reference to your own neighbourhood.

 3       A.   Yes.  Approximately here.

 4       Q.   Did you know that that hill or mountain was totally controlled by

 5    the BiH army?

 6       A.   I am not meddling with these kinds of things, nor do I know

 7    anything about them.

 8            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] An objection with the transcript.

 9    The witness said "I'm not interested in military business," and on the

10    transcript this is not written.

11       Q.   So did you say that you were not interested in any -- in military

12    business?

13       A.   I know nothing about these things.

14       Q.   But in your statement you said that your tram was hit from the

15    aggressor's line.  Is it true that you said that in your statement?

16       A.   [No interpretation]

17       Q.   So since you're not interested at all in military affairs, how did

18    you know where the aggressor was and who the aggressor was?

19       A.   Well, I knew as far as this line, this part, was concerned,

20    because we had protection from UNPROFOR in order to enable us to do our

21    work.

22       Q.   Yes.  But according to you, who was the aggressor?

23       A.   The army of Republika Srpska.

24       Q.   And agressing whom, and agressing which territory?

25       A.   The aggression conducted by them against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 875

 1       Q.   Are you thinking about the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in

 2    conflict with the army of Republika Srpska?  Is that what you're saying?

 3       A.   [No interpretation]

 4       Q.   Witness, you had been driving a tram for 20 -- 30 years; right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   So you're very familiar with the organisation and the running of

 7    your company.

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can you tell us whether there were other means of transportation

10    in Sarajevo at the time?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Have you ever heard about the buses that were using the

13    so-called "salvation route"?

14       A.   Yes, there were buses, but they were taking people to work, people

15    who were under work obligation.

16       Q.   At the time, did you know that those buses were driving along this

17    so-called "salvation route"?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   At the time, did you know what route those buses were driving

20    along?  Were they driving along the same routes as the trams?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   If I understood you right, they did not drive along the same

23    routes as the tram; right?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   I'm not too sure about your answer, about the meaning of your

Page 876

 1    answer, so let me make this clear.  These buses did not ride along the

 2    same routes as the trams; is that true?

 3       A.   Yes, that's true, they didn't take the same routes.

 4       Q.   Did you know where -- did you know what routes those buses were

 5    actually taking?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Am I right to say that these buses were not owned by your own

 8    transportation company?

 9       A.   They belonged to our company but they took workers to work, to

10    hospitals, and all those who were under work obligation.

11       Q.   And as a citizen, as a worker in that company, have you ever heard

12    that these buses would have been hit, that there would have been victims

13    aboard those buses?

14       A.   Yes.  It happened at Mojmilo to one of the buses.

15       Q.   And have you heard about something that would have happened to

16    those buses in the junction we mentioned as being extremely dangerous,

17    between Hrasno and the Holiday Inn?

18       A.   Well, Hrasno is not in front of Holiday Inn.

19       Q.   No, but earlier, on the map you showed us that in Hrasno, next to

20    Bristol, there was a place that was really dangerous for the tram ride.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And then after that there was a whole part of the road between

23    that point and the Holiday Inn, and my question deals with that junction,

24    Hrasno, which is a dangerous point, and the other dangerous point which

25    was located at the Holiday Inn.  Have you ever heard about incidents that

Page 877

 1    would have occurred regarding buses in that junction?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Then you just told us that you were not interested in military

 4    affairs, but in your statement you say that there were no military targets

 5    or objectives around the Holiday Inn where the tram was hit.  But are you

 6    aware of any military objectives that would have existed?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Is it because you were not interested in military affairs or is it

 9    because there were no such targets?

10       A.   There were no such facilities because UNPROFOR was there to

11    protect us and to guarantee that nothing would happen.

12       Q.   Could you please answer to my last question.  According to you,

13    what exactly is a military target?

14       A.   I don't know.

15       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

16            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

17            Mr. Docherty, any re-examination?

18            MR. DOCHERTY:  Just on one point, Your Honour, if I could.

19                          Re-examination by Mr. Docherty:

20       Q.   Madam, Ms. Isailovic was just asking you about military targets.

21    On the day your tram was shot and at the place your tram was shot, did you

22    see with your eyes any uniformed soldiers other than UNPROFOR?

23       A.   None.

24       Q.   Tanks?

25       A.   No.

Page 878

 1       Q.   Mortars or artillery pieces?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Other than UNPROFOR, did you see anything of a military nature at

 4    the place your tram was shot on the day your tram was shot?

 5       A.   No.

 6            MR. DOCHERTY:  No further questions.

 7                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

 9            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I forgot to ask

10    for this annotated map to get a number.

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let it be given a number.

12            Before we do that, Judge Harhoff has a question.

13            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam Witness, I would like you to indicate on the

14    map on the ELMO with the silver pen where your tram was hit that day, on

15    the 3rd of March, 1995.  If you can.

16            Madam Witness, if you can't find it on this map - because I do

17    admit it is quite small - then perhaps could you show it on the map on the

18    ELMO, the other map.  Thank you.

19            THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

20            JUDGE HARHOFF:  So that's the spot?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Isailovic, what's the map that you wish to

24    have admitted?

25            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the map that we have on the

Page 879

 1    screen, DD00/0261, with the annotations made by the witness, the dangerous

 2    places.

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And regarding the criminal

 5    investigation, which is a 65 ter document, number 739, I would also

 6    like -- well, maybe I can first offer it for translation, and get a

 7    provisional marking.  We only have a B/C/S version.  I'm told that an

 8    English version also exists, so could I please get a number for this

 9    document, please.

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Please ensure that we have the English

11    translation.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the map marked by the witness will

13    become Exhibit D22, and the document 65 ter number 00739 will become

14    Exhibit D23.

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence.

16    Thank you for giving it.  And you may now leave.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next up, Ms. Marcus, I believe?

19            MS. MARCUS:  The Prosecution calls Witness 62.

20                          [The witness entered court]

21            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                          WITNESS:  WITNESS W-62

25                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 880

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit, and you may begin, Ms. Marcus.

 2            MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.

 3            May I request the court officer to show the witness a pseudonym

 4    sheet, as this witness is protected.

 5                          Examination by Ms. Marcus:

 6       Q.   Mr. Witness, can you please confirm for us that your name is as it

 7    appears on that sheet?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.  May I request that it be shown to the

10    Defence and to Your Honours.  May I request that this pseudonym sheet be

11    entered into evidence under seal, please.

12            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let that be done.

13            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P98, Your Honours.

14            MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

15       Q.   Good day, Mr. Witness.

16       A.   Good day to you, too.

17       Q.   Could you kindly tell the Court your date of birth, please.

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21       Q.   How long have you lived in Sarajevo?

22       A.   All my life.

23       Q.   What is your training and education in?

24       A.   I went to secondary school for traffic.

25       (redacted)

Page 881

 1       A.   I work for an Italian company.

 2       Q.   Mr. Witness, how old were you when the war began?

 3       A.   Fourteen.

 4       Q.   Where were you living between August 1994 and November 1995?

 5       A.   In Sarajevo.

 6       Q.   In which part of --

 7            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can he just tell us what work he does for the

 8    Italian company?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work with espresso coffee.  I'm a

10    distributor.

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

12            MS. MARCUS:

13       Q.   What town were you living in at that time, between August 1994 and

14    November 1995?

15       A.   Novi Grad.

16       Q.   Between those dates - again, August 1994 and November 1995 - with

17    whom were you living?

18       A.   With my mother and sister.

19       Q.   How did you get access to food?

20       A.   It was difficult.

21       Q.   Can you explain?

22       A.   There was a war on.  Sarajevo was surrounded.  It was difficult to

23    get any food aside from the humanitarian aid that kept arriving.

24       Q.   And who was responsible for feeding your family?

25       A.   I, for the most part.

Page 882

 1       Q.   How did you get water?

 2       A.   That was difficult, too.

 3       Q.   Did you go out of your house to get food and water?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And how was that?

 6       A.   Water came in special water tankers and food came in shipments of

 7    humanitarian aid which would then be distributed.

 8       Q.   Was it easy to go out and get food and water?

 9       A.   No, not really.

10       Q.   Why was that, please?

11       A.   Shellings were quite frequent and sniping, too.  It wasn't really

12    that easy.

13       Q.   Between August 1994 and November 1995, what did you and the other

14    civilians do to avoid snipers?

15       A.   Mostly we ran.

16            MS. MARCUS:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to ask the

17    witness questions relating to scheduled sniping incident number 2.

18       Q.   Mr. Witness, how did the morning of the 24th of October, 1994,

19    begin for you, please?

20       A.   It was dreadful.

21       Q.   Let's start at the beginning.  What was the first thing that

22    happened that morning, please?

23       A.   My best friend was killed that morning.

24       Q.   Okay.  Can you take us to the beginning of the morning and tell

25    us, step by step, what happened.

Page 883

 1       A.   It was his birthday, as a matter of fact.  We were supposed to

 2    celebrate his birthday, but he was off with his mother to see some

 3    relatives.  I was supposed to go.  So we agreed that we would celebrate

 4    his birthday the night before, on the evening of the 23rd.  We were in his

 5    flat; we were having fun, listening to the radio.  We were off to bed.

 6    And the next morning, at about 6 in the morning, we were outside the

 7    building and we went to a department store that was part of our building.

 8    It was called Vemeks.

 9       Q.   I just want to interrupt you.  Slow down a bit please, for us.

10    We'll take it step by step.  Let's go over what you've just told us.

11            First of all, can you please tell the Court the first name of your

12    friend you're referring to, whose birthday you celebrated the night before

13    the incident?

14       A.   Adnan.  His name was Adnan.

15       Q.   Okay.  And you said you were celebrating through the night, and at

16    6.00 in the morning you went out; is that correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Okay.  And when you left your house at 6.00 a.m., where did you

19    go, please?

20       A.   As I pointed out, there was a small department store that was part

21    of our building.  It was called Vemeks.

22       Q.   And how far, approximately, from your house was the Vemeks store?

23       A.   In normal circumstances, the distance ran into about 40 metres,

24    but this was wartime and we had special passages we used behind the

25    building, so it would have taken us about 5 minutes.

Page 884

 1       Q.   How long did you stay out, please?

 2       A.   Between 10 and 15 minutes at the most.  Not long.

 3       Q.   And why was your destination the Vemeks department store?

 4       A.   Our whole building, all the people who lived there, would use that

 5    place to get out.  It was considered a safe passage out of the building,

 6    so to speak.

 7       Q.   So after you stayed out for about 10 or 15 minutes, then where did

 8    you go?

 9       A.   We went back to my flat.

10       Q.   And then how long did you remain in your flat?

11       A.   We remained for a while.  I think we even had breakfast.  And then

12    we were off again.

13       Q.   Where did you head out to this time?

14       A.   Again through Vemeks, and then on to the flat.

15       Q.   Okay.  When you left the house -- your apartment the second time,

16    you were heading towards Vemeks.  Did you actually go to the Vemeks

17    department store?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And did you stop to speak to anybody on your way there?

20       A.   When we came to Vemeks, we saw a friend of ours, a girl who was

21    born on that same day, and we approached her to congratulate her.

22       Q.   At this point when you were speaking with your friend, how many of

23    you were there?

24       A.   Four of us.

25       Q.   Could you please tell us who those four were?

Page 885

 1       A.   Adnan, this girl called Natasa, Ermin and myself.

 2       Q.   Who was Ermin?

 3       A.   Ermin was a mutual friend.

 4       Q.   How long did the four of you stand talking with Natasa?

 5       A.   About two or three minutes, the time it takes to say, "Happy

 6    Birthday."

 7       Q.   And what happened next?

 8       A.   Ermin, Adnan and I were off to Vemeks.

 9       Q.   Can you possibly describe for the Court, please, the Vemeks

10    department store.  What's on its left, what's on its right, how does it

11    appear?

12       A.   Looking at the department store, to the left there was the main

13    street and to the right there was the entrance, just outside of the

14    building, some sort of a passage, that was actually part of the building.

15       Q.   So the three of you were walking away from Natasa's house and

16    towards the Vemeks department store; is that correct?

17       A.   Correct.

18       Q.   And in what sequence were you walking, please?

19       A.   Ermin walked ahead of us and then Adnan and then I.

20       Q.   How far did you get, please?

21       A.   As far as the passage.

22       Q.   And what happened?

23       A.   Ermin came to the wall.  He stepped over the wall.  There's a low

24    wall that you need to step over.  So Adnan was just about to do that and

25    at this moment I heard a shot.

Page 886

 1       Q.   How far were you, approximately, from the passageway when you

 2    heard the shot?

 3       A.   About 10 metres, up to 10 metres.

 4       Q.   What did you do when you heard the shot?

 5       A.   We started to panic and run, Ermin and I.  We didn't know what was

 6    going on.  All I heard at the time was a scream, someone calling my name.

 7    I turned around and I saw Adnan standing there, his face pale.

 8       Q.   What did you do?

 9       A.   I turned around to face him.  I grabbed hold of him, not knowing

10    at the time what had happened.  I pulled him closer to me and started

11    pulling him towards Vemeks.  I realised at this point in time that Adnan

12    had been hit.

13       Q.   What happened next?

14       A.   I saw a friend of mine, called Fahrudin.  I called him over to

15    give us a hand, since I realised that Adnan had been hit.  Fahrudin came

16    with a bandage.  We took off the top of the tracksuit that Adnan was

17    wearing, and we realised there was a bullet hole on his shirt.

18       Q.   Mr. Witness, to clarify, did you hear one shot or two shots?

19       A.   I heard one when Adnan was hit; however, when I started pulling

20    Adnan towards Vemeks, I heard another shot.

21       Q.   Thank you.  So you were with your friend Fahrudin and you took off

22    Adnan's jacket; is that correct?

23       A.   Correct.

24       Q.   And what did you notice about Adnan?

25       A.   We realised there was a hole in his chest, the right half of his

Page 887

 1    chest.  We realised he had been hit.  We took off his shirt.  He was naked

 2    down to the waist at this point.  Fahrudin turned his body around, and we

 3    realised that there was an exit wound on the left-hand side of his lungs.

 4       Q.   Could you please indicate for the Court, on yourself, where the

 5    entry wound was on Adnan.

 6       A.   Right here.

 7       Q.   And where the exit wound was.

 8       A.   The other side of the shoulder blade.

 9            MS. MARCUS:  Could the record indicate that the witness has shown

10    the entry wound on the front right shoulder and the exit wound on the back

11    left shoulder.

12            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13            MS. MARCUS:

14       Q.   Did Adnan make any sound?

15       A.   No.  He tried to draw breath but it came out more as a gurgle.  He

16    wasn't really able to breathe.

17       Q.   And how did he look?

18       A.   He was in a dreadful state.  He was white, pale.

19       Q.   What did you do next?

20       A.   We placed this bandage on him.  In the meantime a vehicle had

21    arrived from somewhere, some sort of a makeshift vehicle, to take him

22    away.  Other people gathered.  We placed Adnan in a car and then they were

23    off to the Dobrinja hospital.

24       Q.   Can you describe this vehicle for us?  Was this an ambulance or a

25    private vehicle?  What kind of vehicle was it?

Page 888

 1       A.   No, it was not an ambulance.  It was a civilian vehicle, some sort

 2    of a delivery vehicle.

 3       Q.   Did you have access to emergency vehicles?

 4       A.   Not really.

 5       Q.   Can you explain why not?

 6       A.   There was a lot of sniping around my area.  It simply wasn't

 7    possible for them to even go there when called.  There was the hospital at

 8    Dobrinja, which was sort of close, so that's where one took people,

 9    generally speaking.

10       Q.   Did you go with Adnan in the ambulance, in the private vehicle

11    that you were using as an ambulance?

12       A.   No.  It was Fahrudin who went.

13       Q.   Where was Ermin during this time?

14       A.   Frankly, I don't know.  I was in a state of shock.  I didn't see a

15    thing.  I didn't see him leave, or where he left.

16       Q.   When the vehicle left with Adnan, where did you go?

17       A.   I stayed at Vemeks.

18       Q.   Mr. Witness, did Adnan survive this sniping incident?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   When did you find out that Adnan had died?

21       A.   About half an hour later, when Fahrudin returned.

22       Q.   What did Fahrudin tell you, exactly?

23       A.   He said that Adnan died on the way to the hospital.

24       Q.   How old was Adnan on that day, the 24th of October, 1994?

25       A.   Fourteen.

Page 889

 1       Q.   That was his birthday, wasn't it?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Mr. Witness, was there any military-related facility of any kind

 4    in the area where that incident took place?

 5       A.   Some way off from the place where the incident occurred there was

 6    a dormitory, some 50 metres away.

 7       Q.   And can you describe the dormitory?  Was it an official military

 8    facility, or what precisely was it?

 9       A.   No.  This was not an official military installation.  It was more

10    like a privately-owned flat where the military stayed during the war.

11       Q.   Did the soldiers use the passageway next to Vemeks to go in and

12    out of that small dormitory?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Were there -- was there any military activity in that area of any

15    kind on the 24th of October, 1994?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Did you see any ABiH soldiers at all at that location on that day?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Could you please describe for the Court how you were dressed on

20    that day.

21       A.   I was dressed in a tracksuit, which means sports clothing.

22       Q.   What was Ermin wearing on that day?

23       A.   Ermin had blue jeans on and a T-shirt.

24       Q.   And what was Adnan wearing on that day?

25       A.   Also a tracksuit like me.

Page 890

 1       Q.   What was the weather like on that date, please?

 2       A.   It was a pretty nice day.

 3       Q.   Before the 24th of October, 1994, was that passageway next to

 4    Vemeks known to be a very dangerous location?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   What about after Adnan was shot?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you and the other residents of that block do anything to

 9    protect yourselves from being shot at that passageway?

10       A.   Yes.  We put a blanket.  We put it -- a kind of hanging blanket.

11       Q.   And did the blanket assist you in protecting yourselves from being

12    shot?

13       A.   For a couple of days.

14       Q.   And then?

15       A.   Since there was a lot of shooting, the blanket was torn in

16    ribbons, just -- there were just remains of it there.

17       Q.   Mr. Witness, just to go back one moment to the clothing you were

18    wearing on that day.  Can you tell us, if you recall, the colour of the

19    tracksuit that you were wearing on that day?

20       A.   I think it was blue.

21       Q.   Do you recall the colour of Ermin's clothing on that day?

22       A.   I think that Ermin's T-shirt was black.

23       Q.   And what about Adnan's clothing?  The colour, please?

24       A.   Greyish black or grey with some black pattern.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Witness, did you meet with Prosecution

Page 891

 1    investigators in the summer of 2006?

 2       A.   Yes, I did.

 3       Q.   And on that date, did you indicate on camera where the shot which

 4    killed Adnan came from?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            MS. MARCUS:  Mr. President, Your Honours, as this witness is

 7    protected, may I request we move into private session simply for the

 8    showing of the video where he himself appears.

 9            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10                          [Private session]

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 892

 1  (redacted)

 2                          [Open session]

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4            MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

 5       Q.   Mr. Witness, do you confirm today the information that you

 6    provided to the ICTY investigator, as we have seen in this video clip?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you provide that information to the investigator of your own

 9    free will?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Could you please tell the Court anything about any differences

12    between how this area looked on the day of the incident and how it looked

13    on this video.

14       A.   Yes.  There's one difference.  The trees have grown and are full

15    of leaves.

16       Q.   The blanket that you mentioned earlier, was that blanket put up to

17    block the passageway before Adnan was shot or after Adnan's incident?

18       A.   It was put up afterwards.

19       Q.   At the end of the video clip we just watched, a building was

20    zoomed in on.  Can you identify for the Court what that building was?

21       A.   That's the centre for blind children and children with impaired

22    vision.

23       Q.   And what was the area of town called where the school for the

24    blind was located?

25       A.   Nedzarici.

Page 893

 1       Q.   To your knowledge, who was in control of the area known as

 2    Nedzarici?

 3       A.   The army of Republika Srpska.

 4       Q.   Was there anything obstructing the view from Nedzarici, where you

 5    say the shots came from, to where your friend was standing, where you and

 6    your friend were standing?

 7       A.   No.

 8            MS. MARCUS:  I'd now like to ask the court officer, please, to

 9    pull up a photograph of the location where Adnan was killed.  It's 65 ter

10    number 2862.

11            THE REGISTRAR:  I'm sorry, but I don't have that image in e-court.

12            MS. MARCUS:  May I have one moment, please, to confer with the

13    case manager.

14            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15            MS. MARCUS:  I'm sorry, I'm informed by the case manager that it

16    is there and that she's released it.  No?  You don't have it?

17            Mr. President, Your Honours, the reason that we wanted to have the

18    one that was submitted in e-court is so that the witness could actually

19    mark some locations on it.  We do have the same photograph as part of the

20    DVD, with the 360-photograph, so we could show him that one but it will --

21    he won't be able to mark it.

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's do that, then.

23            MS. MARCUS:  Okay.  So I request the case manager to please pull

24    that up.

25       Q.   Mr. Witness, can you see an aerial view of the location of that

Page 894

 1    incident on the 24th of October, 1994?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Can you please tell us what is identified by the three red circles

 4    that we see?

 5       A.   This passage is marked with these circles.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us which side of the passageway is marked with those

 7    circles?  Is it the side from which the shots came from or the side where

 8    you and Adnan were standing when Adnan was shot?

 9       A.   That's where the bullet came from.

10       Q.   I'd like you --

11            MS. MARCUS:  Sorry, Court Officer, is it possible for the witness

12    to use any kind of implement to indicate -- no, it's not.  Okay.

13       Q.   Could you describe on the picture where the school of the blind

14    is, if possible, with words.

15       A.   There are two larger buildings down there and two smaller ones in

16    between them.  One has a dark red roof; the other one is grey, in the

17    bottom left corner.  So this is the centre for the blind.

18       Q.   Would you say that this photograph is a true and accurate

19    representation of the origin of fire and the place of the shooting?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Okay.

22            MS. MARCUS:  May I now request the case manager to show the DVD,

23    which has the 360-degree photograph of the location.  Thank you.

24       Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm going to ask the case manager to rotate the

25    photograph slowly to the right, and as she does that, would you please

Page 895

 1    stop us when you see the Vemeks department store.

 2       A.   All right.

 3            MS. MARCUS:  Case Manager, I'd request you to pause, please, when

 4    the witness reaches that.

 5       Q.   Okay, please start.

 6       A.   You can stop now.

 7       Q.   Is this the Vemeks department store?

 8       A.   Yes, it is.

 9       Q.   Now I'll request the case manager to continue, and please pause us

10    when we reach the passageway from which the shots came.

11       A.   You can stop here.

12       Q.   If we can please just continue the rotation to complete the 360

13    degrees.  Thank you.

14            Mr. Witness, would you say that this photograph is a true and

15    accurate representation of the location where Adnan was shot on the 24th

16    of October, 1994?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   How, if at all, does this --

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.

20            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence finds it

21    difficult to understand -- well, I completely agree with these -- I'm

22    impressed by these technical miracles that allow us to have a 360-degree

23    view, but would it be possible to locate specifically the point around

24    which we are rotating?  What is the central point?  During my

25    cross-examination, I might be able to come to that, but perhaps it would

Page 896

 1    be more practical to know exactly what is the central point, because we

 2    saw earlier a recording or a video from an aerial view.  But frankly, I

 3    can't really locate exactly where we are, whether it's on one side or the

 4    other of the building.

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you able to identify the central point, Ms.

 6    Marcus?

 7            MS. MARCUS:  Just to clarify, when you say "central point," are

 8    you referring to the actual spot of the shooting or are you referring --

 9    sorry.

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  What do you mean, that if it's a circle, it must

11    have a center?

12            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I imagine that this

13    recording is helping us to imagine that we are on site.  It's as if we

14    were on site and we were turning around to see everything that is around

15    us.  But we need to know where we are.  Where are we standing?  What is

16    the point -- well, let's say if I were there, I would be standing to have

17    this 360-degree view, to see all that we can see on the screen - I hope

18    this is clear enough - to know exactly where I would be standing in

19    relation to which we see something.  Perhaps if we could look at the map

20    of Nedzarici, one could show us that this is where you're standing and

21    this is all you can see as you look around, around this axis.  So it's the

22    viewpoint of the person of -- where is the person standing?

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The person taking the photograph, are we able to

24    identify that point?

25            MS. MARCUS:  Yes, thank you, I've understood.

Page 897

 1       Q.   Mr. Witness, when you saw that 360-degree photograph, can you

 2    please identify for the Court from what spot was that photograph taken?

 3       A.   As far as I can see, the person who shot this photograph was

 4    standing two to two and a half metres from the spot where Adnan was

 5    killed.

 6       Q.   And is that two to two and a half metres away from the passageway

 7    or two to two and a half metres closer to the passageway?

 8       A.   Towards the wall.

 9            MS. MARCUS:  Does that answer the learned counsel's request?

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, if she has other points, she can raise them

11    in her cross-examination.

12            MS. MARCUS:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  May I request

13    that this portion of the DVD with this 360-degree photograph be entered

14    into evidence.

15            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P99, Your Honours.

17            MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

18       Q.   Mr. Witness, just a few last questions.  Could you tell the Court

19    a little bit about your friendship with Adnan.

20       A.   We were very close.  We were like brothers.  We slept in each

21    other's flats.  His mother was like my mother, and vice versa.  That was

22    something -- we grew up together.

23       Q.   Did you attend Adnan's funeral?

24       A.   Yes, I did.

25       Q.   And can you describe for the Court how Adnan's death has affected

Page 898

 1    your life.

 2       A.   It was horrible.  Horrible.

 3            MS. MARCUS:  No further questions, Your Honours.

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness W-62, you clearly went

 6    through an extremely painful experience, and of course the Trial Chamber

 7    feels a great deal of compassion, but our concern is to establish the

 8    truth, the truth of the facts, the incident, and also to determine

 9    liability, to identify the author or authors in order to establish their

10    responsibility or liability.  That is why I would like to ask you a few

11    questions.

12            You spoke of a military dormitory or soldiers in the vicinity.

13    Unfortunately, we don't see the picture anymore on the screen.  Perhaps we

14    might come back to it.  Perhaps it would be good to see exactly where the

15    dormitory was, where soldiers slept in the vicinity.  Well, nevermind,

16    since there's no image anymore on the screen.

17            I'll come to my second question, which is more important in my

18    mind.  You said that the shots were coming from the passage or the

19    building located at the end of the passageway, and that in that building

20    there was the centre for blind children.  And this was in a place under

21    the control of the Republika Srpska forces.  How can you know that the

22    shots were coming from there?  Did you have any means, I don't know, any

23    practical means?  I know you're not an expert in this field.  But how do

24    you know that the shots came from that direction?

25            And my further question would be:  Across from this school for

Page 899

 1    blind children, were there not other buildings from which the shots could

 2    have originated?  And in that case, if there were such buildings, by whom

 3    were they controlled?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here's how it was:  If you

 5    were to pass by this passageway, you can see the school for the blind

 6    children through the passage, where holes were made in order to shoot

 7    through them.  So everyone living in the neighbourhood could see that.

 8            So the second question was about the buildings between the

 9    passageway and the place of incident.  There were garages there, but they

10    were not high enough to obstruct the view.

11            And I think there was a question about who controlled the area.

12    It was under the control of the army of BH.  I'm talking about these

13    garages.

14            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The garage below the centre for

15    blind children; is that what you mean?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  They were between the

17    passageway.  If we can have the photograph back again, you can see sort of

18    two grey squares.

19            MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I have actually a hard copy of the

20    photograph.  Will that help, to be pointed to on the ELMO?

21            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the garages that I mentioned, one

23    is here and the other one is here.

24            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you very much.

25            JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I just ask you, where were the holes made in

Page 900

 1    this school?  At what level?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately I cannot show it to

 3    you.  They were at the front of the building, closer to the top of the

 4    building.

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  So the building would have had how many floors;

 6    do you know?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe there were three floors.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  And these holes were at the top, the top-most

 9    floor?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the floor and the roof, at

11    the very top of the building.

12            JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Thank you.

13            We have to take the break now.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

16            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please begin, Ms. Isailovic.

17            Ms. Marcus.

18            MS. MARCUS:  Excuse me, Mr. President, Your Honours.  I'm told now

19    that the photograph that was not markable before has now been loaded in

20    and can be marked by the witness.

21            With your permission, I'd just ask him to mark three spots on the

22    photograph and that's it.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

24            MS. MARCUS:  May I request the court officer to please pull that

25    up.  Thank you.

Page 901

 1       Q.   Mr. Witness, can you hear me?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Would you please mark, with that pen that you've been given, on

 4    this photograph the location of the garages that you were referring to

 5    earlier.  And could you mark it with a G for garage, please.

 6       A.   [Marks]

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Could you also please mark for the Court the area of

 8    town that you referred to as Nedzarici.

 9       A.   [Marks]

10       Q.   Thank you.  And lastly, could you please mark for the Court the

11    building that you referred to as the school for the blind.  You could mark

12    it with an S for "slijepi," S for blind in B/C/S.

13       A.   [Marks]

14       Q.   Thank you very much.

15       A.   You're welcome.

16            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can I put an additional question to the witness,

17    just an extension of the video that was offered by the Prosecution,

18    because I have -- I do not have a full understanding of what we saw on the

19    video.

20            Now, if you suggest, Mr. Witness, that the shots came from the

21    school of the blind, then my question would be that, on the video it

22    looked as if the bullets went through the passageway and hit someone who

23    was on the other side of the building.  So that means that if the shots

24    came from the location S shown on the picture on the e-court, towards the

25    direction where the three red spots are, then my question is:  Is that the

Page 902

 1    entrance of the tunnel shown by the three red spots, and so that the

 2    incident occurred on the other side of the building?  Is that what can be

 3    deferred from this picture?  Do you understand my question, Mr. Witness?

 4    I'm sorry, it was perhaps a bit awkwardly put to you, but I hope you're

 5    getting the gist of what I'm asking for.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand the question.

 7    This is the entrance of the passageway, and the incident occurred at the

 8    other end, at the other end.

 9            JUDGE HARHOFF:  At the other side of the building that can be seen

10    here, the tall white building?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right.  Past the

12    passageway.

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just for clarification, Mr. Witness.  I'm sorry.

15    If the three red circles on the picture shown in the middle of -- a bit

16    above the middle of the picture, if that marks the entrance of the

17    passageway, then your suggestion is that the shots were fired from the

18    school of the blind upwards towards the entrance of the passageway,

19    through the passageway, and then hit Adnan on the other side of the

20    passageway, which we cannot see here because it's on the other side of the

21    building.  Is that correct?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.

24            MS. MARCUS:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm sorry.  May I move

25    to admit this marked photograph?

Page 903

 1            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let it be admitted.

 2            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P100, Your Honours.

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Isailovic.

 4            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                          Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

 6       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  I'm Branislava Isailovic,

 7    a member of the bar in Paris, and I represent the Defence of Dragomir

 8    Milosevic, the accused in this case.

 9            I'm going to ask you a few questions concerning your witness

10    statements, the statements you made for the Prosecution and also today

11    before this Trial Chamber.

12            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to start

13    out with the same picture, the picture used by the trial attorney, but

14    could we see this same picture without any annotations, a virgin copy.  It

15    has been explained to me that -- it is number, I think -- the same

16    picture, the picture we already see on the screen, but might it -- perhaps

17    my learned colleagues could help me with the 65 ter number.  I don't have

18    it on hand.

19            MS. MARCUS:  I believe the 65 ter number is 2862.

20            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   So, Witness, here we have the same picture as we did earlier, and

22    what I'm interested in -- in fact, earlier I also was interested in the

23    exact location of the garage or garages, but what I'm particularly

24    interested in is whether you know what these objects are, these objects or

25    facilities between what you showed us as the school for the blind and the

Page 904

 1    alleged point of impact, the entrance of the passageway.  There is what

 2    seems to be some construction, some facilities.  Could you tell us exactly

 3    what it is, what these are, and to annotate the picture as you did

 4    earlier; for example, the building that is nearest to the centre for the

 5    blind, and so on and so forth.

 6       A.   There's one thing I would like to say first.  This photograph was

 7    taken perhaps a year ago.  Some of the buildings were added.  When the

 8    incident occurred, most of these buildings were not there.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   So then my question is the following:  Which of the objects that

12    you see on the -- well, between the centre for the blind and the entrance

13    to the passageway, which of those buildings already were on site at the

14    time of the incident?

15       A.   Should I mark these for you?

16       Q.   Yes, please.

17       A.   [Marks]

18       Q.   Now, could you tell me, the first building nearest to the centre

19    for the blind, could you tell us exactly what that building was?

20       A.   The square or the market.

21       Q.   Is that a high building, rather high, or not?

22       A.   No.  A low one.  Those were boxes.

23       Q.   And the second building as you come closer to the passageway?

24       A.   You mean the X in the middle?

25       Q.   Yes.

Page 905

 1       A.   That's a garage.

 2       Q.   Are those garages of the same type as those that are closer to

 3    your building, in other words, closer to the alleyway?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Thank you.

 6            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that this picture

 7    be marked, the picture that has been annotated by the witness.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be admitted as Exhibit

10    D24.

11            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It has been explained to me that I

12    should proceed as follows:  If I would like to explore a video sequence or

13    the 360-degree pictures tendered by the Prosecution, I must ask for their

14    assistance in order to have it called up on the screen.  So I would ask

15    you, please, to call up the video sequence, and afterwards, I would like

16    to discuss it with the witness.

17            That isn't the video clip.  It should be number 65 ter 27117

18    showing the investigator.

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Marcus.

20            MS. MARCUS:  May I just request, then, that we move into private

21    session to protect the identity of the witness.

22            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

23                          [Private session]

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 906











11    Pages 906-907 redacted. Private session.















Page 908

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5                          [Open session]

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Do you know, since you lived in the neighbourhood - perhaps you

 9    even had friends who lived there - above the alleyway there was an

10    apartment that was about what size, approximately?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Perhaps there's a slight misunderstanding due to interpretation.

13    I asked you if there was an apartment, but approximately what size, what

14    surface area?  Was it the size of one apartment?  Were there two

15    apartments?  Is it a big apartment?

16       A.   The answer is yes, it was as big as a flat, which means the

17    passageway's as long as the building is wide.  The building has flats on

18    both sides, if you see what I'm trying to say.  The area was in terms of

19    square metres.  The passageway or the flat above it is really not

20    something that I can specify.

21       Q.   Just a detail, because you just said on both sides, so do I

22    understand you correctly that there were "urezi", as we call them, on both

23    sides, there were entrances on both sides?

24       A.   I'm sorry, entrance?  What sort of entrance?  To what, exactly?

25       Q.   I was thinking of what we call "haustor".

Page 909

 1       A.   It only has one entrance on one of the sides.

 2       Q.   So if I understand you correctly, they were only on the side -- on

 3    the side where you were during the incident, there is an entrance or

 4    entrances to the building?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And in the video you stopped for a moment, or you held the

 7    position in which your unfortunate friend was when he was mortally hit by

 8    the shot.  Is it true that his right shoulder was turned towards the

 9    alleyway?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And the alleyway was, therefore, on your right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   When the trial attorney asked you questions earlier about the

14    wounds, the exit and the entry points of the bullet, I think you said that

15    the bullet entered on the right-hand side, entered straight but not on the

16    right-hand side?

17       A.   The wound was on the right side, the entry wound, on the right.

18    Nearly the same.

19       Q.   This may seem to be an unfortunate question, but, well, we have

20    to -- well, the issue here is the guilt of a person so I have to insist.

21    But did the bullet enter from the front or from the side?

22       A.   These questions are causing quite a bit of stress; that's true.

23    The bullet entered from the front right side, from the front, on the

24    right, if you look at the direction we were headed.

25       Q.   Now, Witness, I would like to ask you a few questions regarding

Page 910

 1    the content of your testimony today and your witness statements of

 2    November 15th, 1995, and May 22nd, 2006.

 3            First of all, you say that at the time you were 16 years old, not

 4    older than that.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   So I suppose that at that age you were considered to be a young

 7    boy, an adolescent rather than an adult.

 8       A.   Frankly, I'm at a loss as to what to answer.  I was the man in the

 9    house, as they say where I come from.  I had my mother and my sister to

10    look after.  It was a commitment that I had as a male, the only male in

11    the house.  Frankly, I didn't really like it very much when others viewed

12    me as a small boy, a child.

13       Q.   Yes, I understand quite well.  That was the feeling that you had,

14    the way you saw yourself, and that's quite understandable.  But, in fact,

15    my question -- well, let me explain more clearly.

16            I think it is fair to say that perhaps you were not explained

17    everything in detail with regard to all that was going on in your

18    neighbourhood, for example, the soldiers that you mentioned earlier.

19    Perhaps you were not told extensively what they did at the time, and you

20    did not take part in what they did.

21       A.   Of course I was too young to be involved in any form of military

22    activity.  But we did know everything about what was going on.

23       Q.   And what was going on was that there were many soldiers in that

24    area, the area where your building was located.

25       A.   The soldiers were a little bit downwards.

Page 911

 1       Q.   You know, however, that the confrontation lines were quite nearby,

 2    the confrontation lines between the two warring parties.

 3       A.   Which specific point do you have in mind?

 4       Q.   I'm thinking about Nedzaric.

 5       A.   Here there was a confrontation line close to the building.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would request that another

 8    map be called up on the screen, another map that we have in our atlas,

 9    number -- 65 ter number 002829.  May I ask the registrar to call that up

10    because we don't have it in our documents.

11            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The registrar will find it.

12            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Can we

13    rotate it and enlarge it a bit, if possible.  Enlarge the section -- yes.

14       Q.   Witness, can you see in front of you Nedzarici on the map?

15       A.   Yes, I can.

16       Q.   This is a map that was drawn up by the UNPROFOR that depicts the

17    confrontation lines between the warring factions; the BiH army on the one

18    hand and the Republika Srpska army on the other.  Can you see this line --

19    these two lines surrounding Nedzarici?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   According to UNPROFOR, part of Nedzarici - in fact you lived in

22    Nedzarici - but part of Nedzarici was within the control of the army of

23    the Republika Srpska but completely surrounded by units of the BiH army.

24    That is reflected by the yellow line.

25            So my question is as follows:  According to the UNPROFOR, there

Page 912

 1    were military facilities around and within the yellow line, near the

 2    yellow line, because that line was the confrontation line.  Would you

 3    agree with me in saying that the neighbourhood in which you lived was very

 4    near those two lines?

 5       A.   I wasn't living in Nedzarici, although maybe that's a lesser

 6    point.  This is a rather bad map and I can only say approximately where my

 7    neighbourhood was, but I cannot say it with 100 per cent surety.

 8       Q.   Can you tell us, well, with perhaps less certainty, exactly where

 9    was located your building?  Approximately where was located your building?

10            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we give the witness a pen so

11    he can show us on the map.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the building should approximately

13    be in front of this yellow line here.  Not completely.

14            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Is it the same building where the passage or the alleyway was

16    located?

17       A.   [No interpretation]

18       Q.   And does this map make it possible for you to indicate the

19    location of the centre for blind children?

20       A.   It's very difficult.

21       Q.   But am I correct in saying that it should be rather close by?

22       A.   Yes, it was close.

23       Q.   Earlier you mentioned the holes in that building, the centre for

24    the blind.  Do you remember mentioning that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 913

 1       Q.   Did you see those holes yourself?  And when?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And when did you see them?

 4       A.   They were there throughout the whole war.

 5       Q.   Did you see them with your own eyes, or were these -- was this

 6    hearsay, things that you heard, that you heard the soldiers talking about?

 7       A.   I saw them with my own eyes.

 8       Q.   Could you tell us approximately where those apertures were in that

 9    building?

10       A.   Here?

11       Q.   No, no, not at all.  Since you are an eyewitness, I would ask you

12    to describe them, because we've heard a great deal about this house.

13    Perhaps you could describe this house, this building, and tell us where it

14    was located at the time, and where those apertures were located that you

15    saw with your own eyes.

16       A.   The hole -- the wall where the holes were can clearly be seen in

17    the video that was played with the reconstruction in which I took place.

18    So when you look at this building there's a wall, and beneath the roof

19    there were holes.

20            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'd like to see that again.  Sorry, I'll take

21    account of that in estimating your time.  Can we see that video again so I

22    can see those holes?

23            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I was also going to suggest that,

24    but perhaps before that, since the witness has indicated his building, we

25    could keep this as evidence, we could tender it as evidence, and have a

Page 914

 1    number for this map.

 2       Q.   Perhaps annotate it slightly with an X, for example.  We see a

 3    straight line.  Could you perhaps put an X or a star.

 4       A.   Are you referring to my building?  [Marks]

 5       Q.   Thank you.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be admitted as Exhibit D25, Your

 7    Honours.

 8            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9            Can we then have the video.

10            MS. MARCUS:  Mr. President, Your Honours, may I again request

11    private session for this.

12            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

13                          [Private session]

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 915











11    Pages 915-916 redacted. Private session.















Page 917

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   And when you said "dormitory," were you thinking of a place where

13    the soldiers would sleep or where they would walk around, would come in

14    and go out?

15            THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry to interrupt.  We're in open session, Your

16    Honours.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a privately-owned flat

18    where the soldiers were billeted.

19            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   And how did you know that, if it was a private apartment?

21       A.   It was common knowledge.

22       Q.   Could it perhaps be because you saw the soldiers entering that

23    apartment and exiting it?  Is that perhaps why it was known?

24       A.   It was generally known.  Not that I didn't see them.  I did see a

25    couple of them.  But everybody knew that they were sleeping there.

Page 918

 1       Q.   Witness, in your statement, the second statement that you made on

 2    the 22nd of May, 2006, for the Prosecution - I don't know if it's really

 3    necessary to pull it up on the screen; perhaps if you remember it, we can

 4    just move ahead - you mention a person named Fahrudin, a friend of yours,

 5    and then soldiers.  And in that statement -- perhaps it would be easier if

 6    it was called up on the screen, in order to refresh your memory, to make

 7    things easier for you.

 8            My assistant will call it up.  Well, there are two versions, so

 9    we'll take a moment.  The fourth page, paragraph 17.  We also have it in

10    English.

11            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We see it -- we don't see it on

12    the screen.  Does anyone see it on the screen?

13       Q.   Witness, do you see paragraph 17?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   So for the interpreters, it is paragraph 17.  I will read it in

16    B/C/S.

17            "When I was tending Adnan with Fahrudin at the department store, I

18    recall some soldiers coming with a stretcher and putting bandages on

19    Adnan.  Adnan was trying to breathe but could not, and the soldiers tried

20    to put a lot of bandages over his wounds to close them.  I know these

21    persons were soldiers because they were carrying rifles.  They were all

22    wearing uniforms."

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  There's a problem there.  In the English, it

24    says "They were not wearing uniforms."

25            Can you just read the B/C/S and let it be translated, for that

Page 919

 1    sentence.

 2            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] In the statement that I have, it

 3    is:  "I know that these people were soldiers because they were carrying

 4    rifles.  They were all wearing uniforms."

 5            JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.

 6            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] "I know these persons were

 7    soldiers --" correction.  "There were a number of persons living in the

 8    area who I knew as soldiers, but they did not have uniforms."

 9            JUDGE ROBINSON:  The English translation is wrong, then.  It

10    says "They were not wearing uniforms."

11            MS. MARCUS:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm sorry.  I'd just

12    like to point out that the procedure for taking statements is that the

13    original is the English; then the English statement is translated into

14    B/C/S.  So if there was a translation problem, it was in that direction.

15            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Witness, do you see English fluently?

17       A.   A little.

18       Q.   Did you make your statement in English?

19            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

20            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Maybe we can clarify, because if you read on,

21    further lines down in that paragraph, paragraph number 17, you can see

22    that the English text reads that "there were a number of persons living in

23    the area who I knew as soldiers, but they did not have uniforms."  So the

24    same suggestion is made twice in that paragraph, that the persons were not

25    wearing uniforms.  So maybe it is the B/C/S translation which is wrong.

Page 920

 1            JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, is there a special uniform

 2    for the Territorial Defence?  Because in the last sentence of paragraph

 3    17, in English, it is said, [In English] "They were something like the

 4    Territorial Defence."

 5            [Interpretation] How would you explain that?  What does that mean

 6    exactly?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were no special uniforms.  Each

 8    of these men would put on themselves whatever they had.  Some had

 9    camouflage vests; some had trousers.  I don't know.  That's how it was.

10            MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   Well, then, I will ask you again the question, regardless of what

12    is written in the statement.  It seems very odd to me that you would make

13    a statement in English, since your language is B/C/S.  But let me come

14    back to the facts.  At that time, those people who came to give you help,

15    were they dressed as you just described to Judge Mindua?

16       A.   As far as I can remember, some were; some were not.  Some were in

17    civilian clothes; some of them only had a vest.  I was in a state of shock

18    and I didn't have either time or will to look closely at how everybody was

19    dressed.

20            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Isailovic, how much longer will you be?

21    Because we are beyond the time when we should adjourn.  We are now

22    encroaching on the other Trial Chamber's trial time.

23            Ms. Marcus, you'll be re-examining?

24            MS. MARCUS:  Yes, very briefly, Mr. President.

25            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, in view of the fact that we are beyond the

Page 921

 1    time when we should adjourn, I think we must break now.

 2            So we'll adjourn, and, regrettably, you'll have to return tomorrow

 3    at 9.00 a.m.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

 5                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

 6                          January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.