Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1444

1 Friday, 2 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I promised yesterday to let you know about

7 next week Friday. We will not sit next week Friday, and early next week

8 the Chamber will issue an order as to how the Fridays will be utilised.

9 Is it Mr. Docherty to call the new witness?

10 MR. DOCHERTY: It is, Your Honour.

11 Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Sabina Sabanic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit down.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

18 Q. Good morning, Witness. Could you begin, please, by telling us

19 your name and date of birth.

20 A. My name is Sabina Sabanic. I was born on the 3rd of January,

21 1968.

22 Q. I'm going to talk to you about a couple of statements that you

23 gave to investigators from this Tribunal. First of all, did you speak

24 with an investigator from the International Criminal Tribunal for the

25 former Yugoslavia on 16 November of 1995?

Page 1445

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Since coming to The Hague a few days ago to testify, have you had

3 the opportunity to read that statement over carefully?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In what language did you read that statement?

6 A. In Bosnian.

7 Q. Now, I understand that you have a couple of directions to --

8 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I beg your pardon for

9 interrupting. Your microphone is on.



12 Q. I was going to say, Witness, that you have a couple of corrections

13 to make to that statement; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the first one concerns the time at which you left work on the

16 day that you were shot. What would be the correct time at which you left

17 work on the day that you were shot?

18 A. The exact time when I left work was --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the time.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please repeat the time. It wasn't heard, the

21 time when you left work.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was around ten or five to 4.00 on

23 that day when I left work.

24 Q. And I understand there is a second correction which concerns the

25 first aid or medical attention that you received from some UNPROFOR

Page 1446

1 soldiers. In the statement it says that they bandaged your wound. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. No. They gave me oxygen in their vehicle because I was losing

4 consciousness, and that was all.

5 Q. With those two corrections made, is the statement of 16 November

6 1995 true and correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I tender into evidence the witness's

9 statement of 16 November 1995. The 65 ter number is 2890.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P153.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Your Honour, I neglected to mention earlier

13 but should have: This witness will be giving evidence pursuant to 92 ter,

14 and this testimony will concern scheduled sniping incident number 8 to the

15 amended indictment.

16 Q. Witness, did you also speak to another investigator from this

17 Tribunal on the 22nd of May, 1996?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, again, since coming to The Hague to testify, have you had an

20 opportunity to read that statement over carefully?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In what language did you read it?

23 A. In Bosnian.

24 Q. And I understand you to have one correction to make concerning

25 that statement which has to do with your child's reaction to certain

Page 1447

1 movies; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. All right. And what would that correction be? What is your

4 child's reaction to movies with themes of war or shooting or things like

5 that?

6 A. I think my child reacts like every other teenager. I wouldn't say

7 that my child is avoiding watching these kinds of films.

8 Q. All right. Once that correction is made, ma'am, is the statement

9 of 22nd of May, 2006, true and correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I tender the witness's statement of

12 22 May 2006. The 65 ter number is 2891.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P154.


16 Q. Witness, what was the date on which you were shot?

17 A. 23 November 1994.

18 Q. What were you doing when you were shot?

19 A. I was driving -- I was in the tram.

20 Q. Now, I'm going to ask for an aerial photograph to be put on the

21 monitor in front of you.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: And if I could please ask the court officer to pull

23 up 65 ter number 2819.

24 Q. Witness, it will take a moment or two for that to come up. But

25 while we are waiting, let me direct you to a statement in your statement

Page 1448

1 of 16 November 1995 where you say that: "There was panic all over the

2 tram." Do you remember that in your statement?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. What was it that you saw that day, what was it that you heard that

5 that day, and what observations did you make that led you to the

6 conclusion that there was "panic all over the tram"?

7 A. Panic reigned or set in at the time when people were getting

8 wounded, covered in blood, and of course that's when panic set in.

9 Everybody wanted to get off; however, it was not safe.

10 Q. The photograph is now up on the monitor in front of you. Do you

11 see it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise the scene in that photograph?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 MR. DOCHERTY: And if I could ask the usher's assistance, I'm

16 going to ask the witness to use the SMART Board to make some markings on

17 this photograph.

18 Before we begin marking on this photograph, Your Honour, I'll

19 tender the unmarked photograph.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is already an exhibit, number

22 P88.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: Then I will not seek to tender it, Your Honour.

24 Thank you for the correction.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

Page 1449


2 Q. Witness, on this photograph, could you just draw a line with an

3 arrow showing us the direction that the tram you were in was travelling on

4 the day you were shot.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Thank you. Could you mark with an X the location of the tram

7 when, in your words, "panic set in"?

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Once --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour and

12 Mr. Prosecutor. I have a problem. I'm trying to follow the transcript on

13 my screen, but it's not working. It's very hard to follow what's on the

14 photograph and the transcript. If something could be done, because my

15 screen is not working for the transcript.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm told that they are aware of the problem and

17 they're working on it. But you are receiving the interpretation?

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. But it's easier when

19 you also have the transcript to see if this is exactly what the witness is

20 saying and to be able to check things.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I appreciate that.

22 Well, we expect that that will be corrected shortly, so continue.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Mr. President.

24 Q. Do you see on --

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Excuse me. I wanted to ask a different question

Page 1450

1 first, and I'm going to ask this question, Mr. Usher, and ask for an

2 another marking and then I will be done with that.

3 Q. Can you describe to the Court the physical sensation you

4 experienced upon being shot on the 23rd of November, 1994?

5 A. Well, when a person gets shot or wounded, you don't feel the pain

6 immediately. When people said in the tram that there was shooting, there

7 were lots of injured people. There was one wounded people -- person

8 behind me, and I thought that he was, or she, the only one who was wounded

9 because I didn't hear anything.

10 When the tram stopped, everyone got off in panic. I was feeling

11 very bad. I was losing consciousness, and I ascribe this to fear and

12 panic that I felt at the time. However, I was injured, after all. I

13 couldn't move my arm. It was November. I had my coat on, a blazer, but I

14 saw blood on my arm.

15 Q. And looking at the photograph in front of you, do you see the spot

16 where you realised you had been shot on that photograph?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You've marked the spot where, in your words, "panic set in";

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After you realised that panic had set in, what did the tram do?

22 A. The tram continued travelling because that was an unsafe area, and

23 it went behind this other building - that's the museum - and that is where

24 we got off.

25 Q. All right.

Page 1451

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, at this point I'm going to tender

2 the marked photograph that is on the monitor and then switch to a

3 different photograph that I believe will be more helpful for the balance

4 of the witness's testimony. So at this time I tender the marked

5 photograph on the monitor.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P155.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: And if I might, please, ask the court officer --

9 I'm sorry, I'll wait a moment.

10 Mr. Usher, I will be through marking for a few minutes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we have it yet? No? It's there.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: If I can ask the court officer, then, to call up a

13 different aerial photograph. It's got 65 ter number 2906. And while that

14 is being done, I can continue my examination of the witness.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly ask the witness's

16 microphones to be adjusted because the witness is barely audible.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour, I really

19 suffer from the fact that I cannot read the transcript. I don't have this

20 exhibit number on the 65 ter list. I don't know if there's been a mistake

21 in the number of the exhibit, because I don't have the transcript to check

22 it out. I cannot check whether it's 2909, did you say?

23 MR. DOCHERTY: The number is 65 ter number is 2906. It was

24 disclosed to the Defence in hard copy following court a couple of days

25 ago. It is an aerial photograph and it is on the monitor at this time.

Page 1452

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's on the monitor, Ms. Isailovic.


3 Q. Witness, do you see the photograph that is on the monitor in front

4 of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, just so that we can orient ourselves with respect to the

7 photograph that was here before, do you see on the photograph that's there

8 now something called the Marshal Tito barracks?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Your Honour, before the witness marks, I will

11 ask that this photograph be introduced into evidence in its unmarked

12 condition.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P156.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, can you ask the

16 witness to show us where these Marshal Tito barracks are, because I was

17 unable to see.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: I was just about to, Your Honour. I just wanted to

19 admit it before we started marking.

20 Q. Witness, could you please draw a square or a rectangle around the

21 perimeter of the Marshal Tito barracks.

22 A. This is this part, but there's something else, because something

23 is being worked on here.

24 Q. And can you just draw for us the part that's being worked on.

25 Could you outline that as well, please.

Page 1453

1 A. It's here.

2 Q. And on the previous photograph I asked you to make an X at the

3 spot where panic set in on the tram. Is that spot also on this

4 photograph?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And just so we can orient ourselves and move easily from one

7 photograph to the other, could you make that X on this photograph as well,

8 please, in the same spot that it was on in the last photograph.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Thank you. Now, do you have an opinion, Witness, as to where the

11 bullets came from -- the bullet, excuse me, came from that hit you on the

12 23rd of November, 1994?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Can you tell us what that opinion is and also the reasons why you

15 have that opinion.

16 A. There was shooting in Sarajevo. The most difficult thing was to

17 cross this part here, this one here. The shots were always coming from

18 these three sky-scrapers that were held by the Serb army, or whatever they

19 were called. Even when the tram was not operating, it was difficult. We

20 used to use this part here to walk through, and it was very difficult to

21 cross this section. We had to run.

22 Q. I'm going to ask you to make a couple of more marks on there. You

23 said "these three" buildings here, and so we know which three buildings,

24 can you put a tick mark, a check mark on each of those three buildings.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 1454

1 Q. Thank you. Could you, beside the two rectangles that you wrote

2 for the Marshal Tito barracks, put the letter -- capital letter T, for

3 "Tito."

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. And could you, beside the line that you indicate was the safer way

6 to go, put the capital letter S for the English word "safer"?

7 A. You mean after you've crossed this section, that it was safer?

8 Are you referring to this part of the route?

9 Q. No. On the photograph you have made a mark - do you see it? -

10 which is not labelled yet. It is a line. And you said, I believe, that

11 that was a safer way to go but that you still had to run. Do you recall

12 the -- and I apologise, I don't have a transcript in front of me so I

13 can't quote you exactly. But do you remember the testimony I'm referring

14 to? And do you see that line, that red line, on the monitor?

15 A. No. I said that in the period when we had to walk to this line,

16 this is where we walked. This section was also difficult to cross because

17 of snipers. We had to run across.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, before this is removed from the

19 screen, I wanted to get back to the question you asked her as to the

20 reason why she held the opinion that the shots came from a particular

21 direction, and her answer was that the shots were always coming from these

22 three sky-scrapers that were held by the Serb army. So I presume she --

23 Am I right in then saying that your opinion is that the shots were

24 coming from the three sky-scrapers held by the Serb army?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 1455

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But your reason for saying that is that in

2 the past that's where the shots always came from. Is your only reason for

3 saying that because the shots always came from that area?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the tram facing Grbavica,

5 facing that area where those buildings are. A bullet hit me on this side;

6 it was a direct hit. So it is for those reasons that I believe that it

7 came from there.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Again, we must draw

9 everyone's attention to the fact that the witness is not speaking into the

10 microphone and she is barely audible.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it possible to have the second microphone

12 placed in front of her?

13 Well, I'm clearer now as to the reason.


15 Q. And --

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President. Now we

17 have no interpretation and no transcript.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter in the French booth apologises;

19 she was on the wrong channel. The French translation is back.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. The French translation is back.


22 Q. Witness, the line that you were marking just before you and Judge

23 Robinson had a conversation, could you mark that with a W for the English

24 word "walk"?

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. Could I

Page 1456

1 have what you have just said, the exchange of words between Your Honour

2 and the witness. I don't have the translation and maybe I can try and

3 find it on the transcript. It's very important, as far as I'm concerned.

4 I don't have the transcript. I have got the photograph on the screen and

5 it's very difficult for me to switch all the time. I don't know what is

6 being said.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'll repeat. I asked the witness whether

8 the only reason for her saying that the shots came from the three

9 sky-scrapers is that in the past that was where the shots came from. And

10 then she replied: "I was in the tram facing ... the area where those

11 buildings are. A bullet hit me on this side; it was a direct hit. So it

12 is for those reasons that I believe that it came from there."

13 And I then said that I was clearer as to her reason.


15 Q. Witness, the line on the photograph that we've been talking about,

16 can you please mark that with a capital W for the English word "walk."

17 The route that you would take, that you have marked with a red mark, for

18 when you had to walk rather than take the tram.

19 A. This is where one walked.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I tender the marked-up photograph

22 into evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P157.


Page 1457

1 Q. Witness, what was the weather like on the 23rd of November, 1994,

2 the day that you were shot?

3 A. It was rather cold. No precipitation, though. Clear.

4 Q. You said that you had left work about ten to 4.00, maybe five to

5 4.00. How long did it then take the tram to get to the place where you

6 were shot?

7 A. The tram would normally reach that stop at about 4.00. That was

8 the stop where I was usually waiting. Since this was the last tram to run

9 on that particular day, it was awfully crowded. Whenever trams were

10 running, all those on their way to work used them rather than to walk.

11 I don't know how long it takes exactly. Each of the stops were

12 awfully crowded, which implied that the tram would wait at each of the

13 stops every time, probably longer than usual under the circumstances that

14 prevailed. But I can't tell you exactly how long.

15 Q. Okay. In any event, in late November in Sarajevo, what time does

16 the sun go down, approximately?

17 A. About 5.00. In November it would about 5.00. Perhaps even

18 slightly sooner.

19 Q. And can you tell us how much light was left at the time that you

20 were shot?

21 A. When I was shot, there was still natural light. It wasn't

22 entirely dark.

23 Q. Were there any soldiers in the area where you were shot?

24 A. No, none.

25 Q. Was there any combat going on, fighting between the two armies

Page 1458

1 going on, at the time that you were shot?

2 A. No, there wasn't. It was, as a matter of fact, quite a peaceful

3 day in comparison. We were even using the trams.

4 Q. And a few minutes ago - and this is the end of my direction

5 examination - you showed Judge Robinson where the bullet had hit you. For

6 clarity of the record, could you point on your body to the place where the

7 bullet entered.

8 A. The bullet entered here and exited back here, like this. This is

9 where it entered and this is where it exited.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: And for the purposes of the record, Mr. President,

11 may the record reflect that the witness has pointed to her right shoulder,

12 an inch or two below the top, and has indicates that the bullet entered at

13 the front; and that the witness then indicated a corresponding spot on her

14 back, about 2 inches below the top of the shoulder, and indicated that

15 that was the place where the bullet exited.


17 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Docherty.

19 Ms. Isailovic.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. I am Branislava

23 Isailovic; I am an attorney with the Paris bar. According to the

24 procedure that we use here, I have to ask a few questions that have to do

25 with the statements that you made on November 16, 1995, and on May 22nd,

Page 1459

1 2006, and a few more questions that have to do with what you just said

2 this morning in this courtroom.

3 So, first, I would like to know if -- I would like to start with

4 your statements. I'm sure you remember your statements. We don't have to

5 have them on screen. Would you rather have them on screen, you know, to

6 refresh your memory?

7 A. I don't think there is a need for that.

8 Q. Thank you. So, in your first statement, which was very close to

9 the accident that occurred in 1994 - it was a statement that was made just

10 a year after your accident - you gave some details on what really

11 happened. You said the approximate time the incident occurred, the

12 circumstances that were prevailing in the tram. I'm sure that you

13 remember that.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you talked about the circumstances and you said that the

16 windows had been broken in the tram; do you remember that?

17 A. That's in the other statement. That should have been corrected.

18 Q. So if I'm right, today we talked about two statements that the

19 Prosecutor showed you before you actually came into the courtroom. I'm

20 sure you have read them. You've read both of them; right?

21 A. Yes, I have read both. I even think that the first time, when the

22 first statement was read, I pointed out the fact that the glass -- about

23 the glass being shattered, and I pointed out that I'd heard no such thing

24 as the sound of glass being shattered.

25 Q. So everything is clearer now. This is not in the second

Page 1460

1 statement, but today you're saying that there was no shattered glass.

2 A. Because that was amended in the second statement. That's at least

3 what I think.

4 Q. It's not really the case. But you're saying it now in this

5 hearing and we have it on the transcript, so that's fine.

6 So regarding the place where the incident occurred - you have

7 talked with the Prosecutor about this - is it fair to say that it happened

8 where the tramway number 4 actually turns to go towards the station?

9 A. No. That's between the Holiday Inn. There's a small turn where

10 they have to switch. I'm not sure what the traffic is like there

11 exactly. The tram just switches over a little and then it continues from

12 the downtown area further down that route.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be useful to have

14 the photograph that we saw earlier, and if I could ask for P88 to be put

15 on the screen, please. It's the aerial photograph that we saw earlier.

16 Q. So on this photograph that you marked earlier, a number of

17 elements are going to be shown. We're waiting for the photograph to be on

18 the screen; it might take a while.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay. If I could please ask the

20 court officer to help the witness and to show her how to proceed in order

21 to show us a few things on this photograph.

22 Unfortunately, the photograph is gone.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: May we have the photograph again?

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So could you please show us this place again, the place where,

Page 1461

1 according to you, the tram was hit.

2 A. Should I put an X there?

3 Q. Yes, you could put an X.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. So that was after the intersection; right? You had already been

6 through the intersection. And there is a curve that goes towards the

7 station. I believe, if I remember Sarajevo right, this tram number 4 goes

8 to the station.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have a noise in the background. I'm going to

10 ask that that be stopped.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tram number 4 goes to the railway

12 station.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Where is the curve, please? Could you tell us where the curve

15 is? Could you please show us where the tram takes that curve to go to the

16 station.

17 A. I don't think you understand me. I was headed from the old town

18 towards Batica. I wasn't going towards the railway station; I was heading

19 straight. I couldn't even have got off at the Marshal Tito barracks if I

20 had been on my way to the railway station.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would the court deputy send a message to the

22 person who is drilling and instruct him to stop. We can't work with that

23 noise.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I'm told that a check is being made

Page 1462

1 and the message hopefully will be received.

2 Please continue.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Madam Witness, I understood what direction the tramway was going.

5 It was going straight. But this is what I'm concerned about, and I'll

6 show you exactly what I mean: Maybe here we will see things, but we also

7 have your statement -- we also have the statement of the tram driver.

8 It's also a witness that we will hear soon.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, this is quite intolerable.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree with

11 you, but I will bear through. Duty calls. But this is a really bad day.

12 Technology is not with us at all; neither is our environment.

13 Q. So let's continue. We have the statement of the tram driver, and

14 we might even hear this tram driver today.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So if we could have -- if we could

16 put on the screen the 65 ter number --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We cannot work with this drill which is making

18 such a noise. The registrar must be instructed to have the drilling

19 stopped immediately; otherwise, I will adjourn the court.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm told that the building is relatively

22 big so it will take some time to locate the precise area where the

23 drilling is so that it can be stopped.

24 Let us see whether we can continue.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So I'll ask my case manager to put

Page 1463

1 on the screen number 2889 on the 65 ter list, page 3, if possible.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty is on his feet.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I object to that statement being put

4 on display. Counsel is certainly free to derive from that statement

5 propositions that she wishes to put to the witness, but I do not think it

6 proper to have all of those propositions, some of which may be agreed to

7 or not agreed to by the witness, displayed in documentary form on the

8 screen. I would ask counsel instead to put her case to the witness. I

9 don't think that she needs to have the statement in front of the witness

10 in order to do that.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I don't think I was entirely clear.

13 This is a statement of a different witness. I would not object if it was

14 this witness's statement, but this is for somebody -- this is some other

15 witness statement.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, it's not clear to the Chamber what

18 your reason is.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: My reason is this, Your Honour: The counsel is, of

20 course, free to put her case to the witness. She may derive the

21 propositions she is going to put to the witness from whatever source she

22 wishes. My objection is to having the entire statement -- the statement

23 in question is relatively brief, to having that statement put in front of

24 the witness and put on the screens. I believe that counsel should isolate

25 the propositions which she wishes to put to the witness and put them to

Page 1464

1 the witness.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is what I don't understand why. What

3 advantage or disadvantage is there?

4 Ms. Isailovic.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me explain. This

6 is the statement of the tram driver of this tram, who is going to be in

7 court also. And I didn't want to tell something to the witness. I'd

8 rather show the witness what this tram driver said. The witness will

9 agree or disagree, but of course I will abide by your ruling.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The Chamber rules that it may be placed

12 before the witness.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 So if we could move to page 3 of this document, please.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now we are not getting it on the screen, so

16 technology may be helping you, Mr. Docherty. It would be faulty

17 technology.

18 We are having a number of problems, and I was told earlier that at

19 the break an effort will be made to resolve the problems with the

20 technology. We appear to have succeeded as far as the drilling is

21 concerned.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for the inconvenience,

23 but the document is now on the screen.

24 Q. So, Witness --

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] The document was there a minute

Page 1465

1 ago and it just vanished; it's gone.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The document is on our screen on the right.

3 Could somebody assist Ms. Isailovic, because it's on our screen.

4 Nothing? It can't be placed on Ms. Isailovic's screen. Can it be

5 placed on the screen of Mr. Tapuskovic?

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. It's even worse, because

7 Mr. Tapuskovic's screen is totally dead. There's nothing.

8 Your Honour, I have a hard copy, a good old solution that usually

9 works. And I am not seeing exactly the same thing as you, because I have

10 a hard copy and you have the electronic file, but I believe it's the same

11 thing.

12 Q. So this tram driver is saying, when he is talking about the place

13 where the tram was hit, he says it's the curve, he says, that goes to the

14 news station - that's what he says in this statement - which is why I

15 asked you that question.

16 So could you please tell us -- show us on the photograph that

17 place, you know, that tram that you used to go to the station, which is

18 not your tram, but I believe it's line 4. Where does that tram actually

19 turn? That's why I asked you that, you know, because that's the place

20 that the tram driver indicated in his own statement. I wanted to see if

21 you agreed with him. Because earlier we talked about the place where

22 panic started in the tram, and I'd like to know exactly whether this

23 corresponds or not with what was said earlier.

24 A. In my opinion, this is what the driver may have had in mind. You

25 have the tram tracks, you have the turn right there, and between the

Page 1466

1 tracks - and I'm not really an expert on this - there is a switch. One

2 switches over and the choice is between going straight ahead to the

3 railway station or turning. So that's what the driver may have had in

4 mind, because this is near the first museum. It's virtually opposite the

5 technical building near the first museum. So we are now equidistant to

6 both museums. It's just that we went off in one direction. I think

7 that's what he may have meant.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please have the aerial

10 photograph on the screen. On the Prosecution's list we didn't have that

11 document, but it was shown to us -- transmitted to us here in the room, so

12 I have it with me but without a number. If this could not happen again,

13 please, because I don't believe that it is correct disclosure. This is

14 not the way we communicate and disclose in the Paris bar.

15 So I don't have the 65 ter number, but it's the photograph that we

16 saw earlier. And it would be nice to have the 65 ter number, please.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: 2809.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was that disclosed?

21 MR. DOCHERTY: It was disclosed after court on Tuesday, Your

22 Honour. And, Your Honour, I made a mistake with the ter number. I

23 apologise. I went from memory, which I should not do. It is it 2906.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I have is this,

Page 1467

1 but I wasn't able to make a link with any witness because there is no

2 number to this. But this is a photograph that I was handed here in the

3 courtroom. So could we please put this photograph on the screen.

4 Q. So, Witness, please, we are going to mark this photograph and then

5 we will tender it, because there's a few things that I'm really interested

6 in on this photograph.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Court Officer, could you

8 please assist the witness.

9 Q. On this photograph, could you please place an X at the place where

10 you believe the tram was hit.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Now, earlier you said -- you talked about a green building behind

13 which the tram took shelter after the impact. Am I right in saying that?

14 A. What I said is that the tram stopped behind the Marsal Tito

15 barracks. I never mentioned any green building.

16 Q. So if you could please now show us, if you could place -- put a I

17 above the X, the X being the place where the tram was hit. Could you also

18 add a I, the letter I, for "impact."

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. And now the place with an X where the tram actually took shelter,

21 stopped to take shelter, from those shots.

22 A. There were some construction works going on there and there was a

23 building here. This is the spot.

24 Q. And could you please put an A, like "abri" in French, or shelter,

25 above those two Xs that you marked.

Page 1468

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Am I right in saying that in relation to those high-rise buildings

3 that you mentioned earlier, nothing changes when you take into account

4 those two places?

5 A. I don't understand your question.

6 Q. Witness, please, earlier you talked about those three high-rise

7 buildings; do you remember that? You believe that that's the place the

8 shots came from.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then you said that the tram took shelter a bit further. And

11 my question is whether, according to you, there is a difference between

12 the first place, you know, the place where there is an A, and the other

13 place that we marked with a I in relation to the exposure that you would

14 get from those high-rises. Am I right in saying that it is pretty much

15 the same situation; that the position is identical in both cases, in the I

16 and in the A?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm not sure that I understand the

18 question. Could you try and put it more clearly, Ms. Isailovic.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I'll try. I

20 even -- while I'm reading the transcript in English, sometimes, you know,

21 what I'm saying, I'm wondering if I'm in my right mind. So I will try to

22 make things clearer.

23 Q. So, Witness, please --

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness understood

25 me - I respectfully say this - but I think she understood what I was

Page 1469

1 saying.

2 Q. On this photograph we have two locations that are marked; you

3 agree with this? So with the I, it's the place where the impact occurred

4 on that day, and the A is the place where, after the impact, the tram

5 actually took shelter to be sure that it was safe and to make sure that

6 the passengers could disembark the tram safely. My colleague asked you a

7 question, and you showed us three high-rises located in Grbavica and from

8 which -- you know, that place where you were hit was actually -- from

9 which it was.

10 So, taking into account where these two locations are compared to

11 the high-rises, to these three high-rises, it's the same situation. The

12 exposure in A and in I is absolutely identical; do you agree with me?

13 Is this clear, Your Honour?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me see whether the witness can answer it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never had any weapons in my hand

16 and I cannot say which position is easier to shoot from. But all the

17 civilians who went through the wall, you even go into the cupboard

18 believing that it will give you protection and shelter. This place where

19 the tram stopped, it was practically between the buildings on each side.

20 That is where we stood between.

21 When you are a civilian, you can find shelter any place. You can

22 bend down, et cetera. There were a million different situations in the

23 war where we tried to protect ourselves, and being between these two

24 buildings gave us a sense of security, as opposed to this place which was

25 a clear area.

Page 1470

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, please, we've already dealt with these photographs

3 earlier. Am I right if I say that in front of -- the museum was located

4 in front of the Marshal Tito barracks?

5 A. No. Opposite. You can see the difference here. You can see this

6 is where the museums are, and the second one on the right -- so between

7 the museums, and this is where the barracks is.

8 Q. So will you put you a dot -- there's also a building --

9 A. There's the second museum there as well.

10 Q. Could you please show us this second museum, because I'm talking

11 about the museum that can be seen on the photograph.

12 A. This one here. You can -- you can see this one.

13 Q. Yes, that was my question. I know Sarajevo. Let's go back to

14 this picture. Could you please show us Miljacka. The river Miljacka,

15 could you show us where it flows.

16 A. It's here, this part here.

17 Q. And we've heard several times in this courtroom that in that area,

18 the Miljacka river was the border between the territory held by the BiH

19 army and the territory held by Republika Srpska. Do you confirm this?

20 A. Well, yes. We didn't go across the bridges; we didn't dare do so.

21 Q. In saying that, you're thinking only about that specific area of

22 Grbavica, between Grbavica and Marindvor?

23 A. Yes. Pofalici as well. This whole part.

24 Q. Do you agree when we say that after that -- after that area, the

25 Miljacka is on the territory held by the BiH army. I'm thinking about

Page 1471

1 Hrasno.

2 A. Are you talking about Hrasno? I really don't understand you.

3 Q. Miljacka, the river Miljacka, is separating the two warring

4 factions in Grbavica. But further down to the west of Grbavica lies

5 Hrasno, and Hrasno is another neighbourhood in Sarajevo. Do you agree

6 with this?

7 A. [No audible response].

8 Q. And in Hrasno, the line -- well, could you -- first, could you

9 confirm by saying either yes or no, because, you know, nodding is not

10 enough and that's not on the transcript. So to confirm you have to say

11 something.

12 A. No, I was just following you. That's what I meant.

13 Q. So we still agree when we say that Hrasno was a neighbourhood held

14 by the BiH army.

15 A. I really don't know where those lines and stuff were, but I know

16 that people lived in Hrasno and used to travel to and from work.

17 Q. You agree with me when I say that Hrasno is adjacent to Grbavica,

18 but on the west side.

19 A. In fact, Hrasno borders with Grbavica. First Grbavica, then

20 Hrasno; that's what I see in this picture.

21 Q. Thank you. Could we now see something. Between the tram tracks

22 or between road -- Zmaja od Bosne Street and Miljacka, which is the line

23 that separates the two warring factions in Grbavica, there is a strip of

24 land. Do you agree with me when I say that?

25 A. I don't know to which part you are referring. Everything has been

Page 1472

1 changing so much in Sarajevo, so I don't know which particular part of the

2 town you're referring to.

3 Q. Along the Miljacka, could you please draw a straight line, along

4 the Miljacka.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. On this photograph, the entire photograph. Put an M at the

7 beginning of that line, M like "Miljacka."

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. And with a -- the street Zmaja od Bosne, could you please show us

10 with a line that street, because that's the street that the tram took. So

11 could you just show us the entire tram route.

12 A. This is where the tram was travelling.

13 Q. And put a T, maybe, on the left-hand side of the photograph to

14 mark the tram route, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. So now do you see what I mean in my earlier question? The strip

17 of land that's between the Miljacka and the tram route, that's the piece

18 of land that I was talking about. Do you see it?

19 A. Yes, I can see it.

20 Q. I would like to know if you agree with me when I say that this

21 strip of land was controlled by the BiH army?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you know that there were units of the BiH army who were posted

24 in Sarajevo throughout the confrontation lines?

25 A. I really don't know about that. Believe me, anything to do with

Page 1473

1 these lines, I know nothing about that.

2 Q. Thank you. On this strip of land that we obtained, between those

3 two lines, the first line being the Miljacka and the second line being the

4 tram route, do you see fairly high buildings in that strip of land?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are they close to the place where the tram was hit?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So the high-rise that we see on that photograph, which is almost

9 in the middle of that strip, what is that, according to you?

10 A. Do you mean this building? I think that it's a faculty building

11 of natural sciences and mathematics.

12 Q. Could you show us that high-rise on the screen.

13 A. You mean this building?

14 Q. Yes, that's the one. So you said that is a faculty building.

15 Could you put an F on it, please.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. F, as in "faculty."

18 A. You mean F.

19 Q. And to the left there's another building that's fairly high. And

20 what building is that, if you know?

21 A. If you are referring to this within here, yes, I know what this

22 building is. It's an apartment building, but there were very few people

23 living there at the time.

24 Q. Very few people that lived in that high-rise; is that what you

25 just said?

Page 1474

1 A. It was pretty much demolished. I think it was on fire at one

2 point. People were jumping out of it.

3 Q. Witness, could you mark it with another letter on this high-rise

4 that was burnt during the war? Maybe the letter Q in blue.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Thank you. You moved around quite often during this conflict, but

7 did you know that there was constant combat between the two warring

8 factions in that area and that shots were fired from both sides, usually

9 from high-rises?

10 A. I never lived in this part, no, of the town because it was

11 enormously risky to live.

12 Q. That was my question. It was extremely dangerous to live here,

13 and there was a reason for the danger. So, according to you and according

14 to what you heard and what was being talked about in town, wasn't it

15 dangerous because there were always shots that were being exchanged

16 between the two warring factions in that specific area?

17 A. I don't know about that. I know that shots were fired from

18 Grbavica and that there were pedestrians being fired on from this side,

19 and this was the route that, in that period, I used to travel to and from

20 work.

21 Q. Well, can I conclude that because you were on that side you knew

22 about the shots that occurred and that were shot on that area, but you

23 didn't really know what was happening on the other side and you didn't

24 really know there were shots that were fired from the territory held by

25 the BiH army? Could I conclude that correctly?

Page 1475

1 A. You know what? When I ever I went to work and we used to run

2 across the street, we tried to find shelter; but while I was walking

3 around, there was no return fire. I can guarantee that for the period

4 that I'm talking about. I cannot say about anything else. I'm talking

5 about the period that is relevant for me.

6 Q. I understood your answer. You said that never heard the shots

7 that were sent as a response from the territory held by the BiH army. Is

8 that what you said?

9 A. I don't know if there was any fighting there. I am explaining the

10 situation to you, as a pedestrian, as a civilian, and for the period when

11 I had to use this route to get to work. I know that people used to run

12 across the street and I know that we were being shot at from Grbavica. I

13 don't know about any return fire.

14 Q. Can I conclude from this that you could make a difference between

15 the shots fired from the north or from the south? How can you know --

16 make the difference between those two kinds of shots?

17 A. I don't know what to tell you. I was facing Grbavica and the

18 entry wound is from that direction. I don't think that the shot had come

19 from Pofalici. I don't know what else I can tell you.

20 Q. I apologise, that wasn't my question. I'm not challenging the

21 fact that you were wounded. I know you were hit on the right side. I am

22 trying to get to something else. You're telling me that as a citizen of

23 Sarajevo, as a person that was riding on the tram often and that was often

24 walking in that area that we're talking about today, you heard shots, but

25 you only heard shots that were coming from the territory held by Republika

Page 1476

1 Srpska -- the army of Republika Srpska.

2 So my question was the following: When you hear shots, are you

3 able to make a difference, to know exactly where the shot comes from?

4 When you hear several shots, can you make the difference? Can you know

5 that it's only coming from one side or can you know that it's an exchange

6 of fire? Can you make the difference between the two?

7 A. As I told you, in that period I was never caught in cross-fires;

8 that's what I wanted to say. Secondly, while you're running down the

9 street, when a bullet lands and when you can see where it had come from,

10 when it hits a building, you can see where it comes from. You can always

11 tell that and differentiate as far as that is concerned.

12 Q. And can you use the sound to make that determination?

13 A. Well, what do you mean by "sound"? It has to stop somewhere.

14 It's not like it's taking a long time to get somewhere. The bullet has to

15 land somewhere eventually. It's not like you are watching it fly past

16 you.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] One question, please, about the

18 sound. There is the sound of the detonation and then there is also the

19 sound of the bullet through the air. In your case, did you hear either

20 the detonation or the sound of the bullet, or both?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard nothing in the tram, nothing

22 at all.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break.

25 We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

Page 1477

1 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just deal with an administrative matter

4 before we resume, and also to note that the break was extended so as to

5 allow the technical staff to resolve the many problems that we faced with

6 the e-court system.

7 This morning the Prosecution filed an urgent motion for protective

8 measures for a witness, and that witness is scheduled to testify on

9 Monday, the 5th. This is very late because the Defence will ordinarily

10 have two weeks in which to reply. So I'm to ask the Defence whether they

11 are in a position to -- I'm to ask Defence whether they would be in a

12 position to respond to the motion today so that we could rule or very

13 early on Monday morning.

14 Mr. Docherty.

15 MR. DOCHERTY: Two things briefly, Your Honour.

16 First, may I request a redaction of the last paragraph. It was,

17 of course, unintentional, but counsel on the other side was unsure of the

18 identity of the witness under discussion and said the name, at least

19 audibly to me through the headphones - it was not caught on the

20 transcript - but could I ask that the last, say, two minutes be redacted

21 before going out, since it was the name of a protected the witness, or a

22 witness for whom protection has been applied.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let that be done. I'll ask all parties to be

24 very careful in future.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: It was, of course, a mistake.

Page 1478

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We understand it was unintentional.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Secondly, Your Honour, I apologise for the

3 tardiness of this filing. We have sought to minimise the number of these

4 last-minute applications; I know they are irritating. All I can say is

5 that sometimes the protective measures do not become clarified until the

6 witness actually arrives in The Hague. We have done all we can to

7 minimise this. I wish I could tell the Court we have reduced that to

8 zero; I cannot make that representation, and I ask for the Court's

9 understanding.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me find out whether the Defence would

11 be in a position to reply to the motion either today or very early on

12 Monday.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll be replying today, but I do

14 need to know the witness's name. If that has to be done in closed

15 session, well, so be it, but I need the name.

16 If that's the person I have in mind, the person whose name is

17 stated in the motion - truth to tell, I didn't even look at it this

18 morning - we do not oppose any protective measures as a matter of

19 principle. One thing that we can't agree on is the Prosecutor requesting

20 any of the total measures, such as voice distortion. Whenever protective

21 measures of this kind are requested, we do not oppose such motions, as a

22 matter of principle. Therefore, we agree, but as long as the voice is

23 heard, as long as there is no voice distortion. I do not oppose that.

24 To be quite frank, I didn't read the motion yesterday. I had more

25 urgent business. But we do not oppose that. However, should the

Page 1479

1 Prosecution be requesting voice distortion as well, I submit that the

2 decision must be for the Chamber.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The decision will always be the Chamber's. As

4 far as I can see, the measures requested are pseudonym and facial

5 distortion.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Voice distortion is not requested with regard to

7 this witness, Your Honour.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, in light of the submissions made by the

10 parties and the relevant provisions of the Statute and the regulations,

11 the Chamber grants the Prosecution's application.

12 Let us proceed with the cross-examination.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, we still have the photograph on the

18 screen. Can you see it? We have all the markings on this photograph, and

19 I shall now ask you to make one last marking. I would like to you

20 indicate where the road is. You mentioned an alternative route different

21 from the tramway, different from Zmaja od Bosne Street; is that right?

22 A. You mean the routes that we used for walking when trams weren't

23 running? Are those the ones you have in mind?

24 Q. That's right. Could you mark this on the map, because when my

25 colleague asked you to do so, you showed us where you crossed the road.

Page 1480

1 If you could now draw a line indicating this alternative route, please.

2 A. I can tell you what the route was that I used. It's this one over

3 here behind these buildings. One thing you must realise is there used to

4 be a building right here at the time. So this was the risky route, and

5 then the one you took was the one behind here and then --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We couldn't hear the last

7 part of the witness's answer. It trailed off because one of the

8 microphones is turned away from the witness. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask the witness to repeat the

10 answer, because the interpreters were not able to hear it. At the same

11 time the usher should ensure that the witness's mic is in front of her.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said is I can show the route

13 that I took. Behind this building and then over here we would run across

14 as fast as we could. There used to be a building here there -- there was

15 a building standing here at the time between these buildings. So that was

16 the route that one used.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Could you draw this, this building which you marked a while ago.

19 Was this building part of the Marshal Tito barracks?

20 A. I think so, yes.

21 Q. Could you mark it with a T, this building which you have already

22 marked, please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. I've just been told that there is a T on the photograph already.

25 Perhaps you could mark it with the letters MT and just put an M before the

Page 1481

1 T, please. So this is a building which is a part of the Marshal Tito

2 barracks; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And, Witness, we have heard several witnesses talking about

5 the "Salvation Route" or a life-saving route. Do you know something about

6 this? At the time did you know anything about it?

7 A. I don't quite understand the question. I don't understand.

8 Q. I'm asking you the question because a number of fellow citizens of

9 yours from Sarajevo mentioned the "Salvation Road". That's what it was

10 called at the time. And to my mind, this would be the same as what you

11 showed us on this picture. Did you know anything about this,

12 this "Salvation Road"? That's how it was called anyway.

13 A. Well, for the most part, we used this route. If you think

14 everybody else was saying the same thing, then that must be what you're

15 referring to.

16 Q. Are you able to continue drawing this line and show us where this

17 road was?

18 A. Well, this is an aerial view, and it has been a very long time.

19 All these routes run between buildings, so this is not quite the way I

20 used to see it. Some streets have been changed around and it would be

21 very difficult for me to use this view to show you what the route was. I

22 know it snaked between the buildings. It wasn't a straight line. There

23 was some sort of a route passing between all of the buildings. I'm not

24 sure that I can show you like this.

25 Q. Did you know that there were buses that used or that went along

Page 1482

1 the "Salvation Road"? Did you know anything about that?

2 A. No, not at the time.

3 Q. Which period are you talking about?

4 A. I'm talking about the time I was wounded. I believe that's what

5 I'm here for.

6 Q. That's why you're here. But as you have been in Sarajevo for the

7 entire time of the conflict, you're not quite sure now.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And I shall ask the court officer

9 to give us an exhibit number, please, because I would like to keep this

10 photograph with all the markings that the witness has made on it, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be admitted and given a number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number D36.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my assistant to

14 display the aerial view, number 2818 on the 65 ter list.

15 Q. In the meantime, and while we're waiting for the photograph to

16 come up on the screen, I would just like to ask you one question. Are you

17 aware, or were you aware of a police investigation that was conducted

18 after the tramway was hit, when you yourself were hit by a bullet?

19 A. No, an investigation, I don't know about that. I'm not familiar

20 with that.

21 Q. You were a victim in this incident and nobody tried to the contact

22 you? The police never tried to contact you to take a statement?

23 A. No. I was at the hospital and they came to the hospital to see

24 who the wounded were. And then I was called -- and then I went for

25 treatment and then I was called to the police station to make a

Page 1483

1 statement. But I'm not familiar with any details.

2 Q. Have I understood you correctly? In any case, it's been recorded

3 in the transcript. You did say that the police came to see you when you

4 were in hospital; is that right?

5 A. No. Someone came to see us. I don't know exactly who. They came

6 to visit the wounded, but they were not uniformed officials.

7 Q. You are not quite sure, you don't know whether this person was

8 from the police or not. The person didn't --

9 A. Yes, that was not clear at all. I made the first statement after

10 my treatment.

11 Q. Did you discuss what happened with other people at the hospital?

12 A. Yes. Someone did come to our room to ask us how we were feeling,

13 what sort of wounds we had suffered, that sort of thing. But you're in a

14 state of shock. You come to the hospital and then everything is in a

15 haze. I can't really remember who it was. That's why I'm telling you

16 this.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I understand that you gave the

18 wrong 65 ter number, so I'm going to ask the court deputy to give the

19 right number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record, I would like to say that this

21 is 65 ter number 2819.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what I said. That's what I

23 said.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us proceed.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1484

1 Q. Do you remember any other victims of the tramway that were at the

2 same hospital as you were?

3 A. There was another lady in the same room as I was. Her husband had

4 been killed and she had been wounded.

5 Q. But that was not the same victim who was with you in the same

6 tramway; is that right?

7 A. Yes. She was in the same tram as I. We were admitted to the

8 hospital at the same time except she arrived there differently.

9 Q. Are you quite sure? At that time when these various people came

10 to see you, did anybody talk to you about a bullet that had bounced back?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We can now turn to the photograph

14 which is displayed on the screen. I have asked my assistant to display

15 this on the screen. We don't have it on our screens. I don't know if you

16 have. Well, we've done what we should to have it on the screen, but we

17 don't have it on the screen.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have it yet.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So my assistant is telling me that

20 the usher has just said that we have a technical problem. We are really

21 unlucky today, aren't we?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy is checking.

23 Do we have a problem?

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Someone is coming to attend to the problem.

Page 1485

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, are you now able to see it?

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, this is another setback.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm addressing myself

6 to the other people in the courtroom: Do you have the photograph

7 displayed on your screens, or is it just ...

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness has got

9 the photograph on her screen. Perhaps we can proceed.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can try. Yes,

11 wonderful. We've got it now.

12 Q. Witness, as you can see, this is a photograph which you have

13 already seen in this courtroom, and I would like you to indicate on this

14 photograph, like you did on the previous photograph, I would like you to

15 mark the route of the tramway, please.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Could you mark it with the letter T? I think it should be a bit

18 straighter, but anyway.

19 Can you now indicate where Miljacka is, please. Can you see it?

20 A. Like this.

21 Q. And can you now tell me -- there are several high-rise buildings

22 on these photographs. Tell me, which of the towers is the Unis building?

23 Could you mark it with the letter U.

24 A. It's this one.

25 Q. And the other high-rise which can you see on the left-hand side,

Page 1486

1 could you tell us what it is?

2 A. You mean this one?

3 Q. Yes, that one, too. Please tell us what it is.

4 A. I think it's a residential building. I think so, yes.

5 Q. Could you mark with the letter B.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. And now to the right-hand side of the Holiday Inn, which we're all

8 familiar with, there is a high-rise building which is located between the

9 Unis tower and this building here, which has a strange shape. Do you see

10 which one I mean? Next to the Unis building, do you see that tower?

11 A. You mean this one here?

12 Q. Yes, yes, that's right. What is that?

13 A. That is the former executive council building.

14 Q. Could you write in the letter G, which stands for "government."

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. And the building which is in front of the government building?

17 A. You mean this one?

18 Q. Yes, that's right.

19 A. I think it's the same thing. It's connected to this other

20 building. It was something or other about the executive council. I can't

21 remember.

22 Q. Could you mark it with the letter G1, please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And now can you see Vrbanja Most on this photograph?

25 A. I'll try to get my bearings. It might be here. It's in this

Page 1487

1 area, I think, but I can't remember specifically. It's ...

2 Q. We can't see anything.

3 A. It's in this area somewhere, I think.

4 Q. Would you mark this bridge with the letter P.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Witness, this is my next question: A while ago you said that the

7 Miljacka river was like a borderline between the two warring factions. Do

8 we still agree about this?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And everything else beyond that was territory controlled by the

11 ABiH army, everything that lies above the line, the line which indicates

12 where Miljacka is. Is that right?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know about the lines. I don't know what's

14 behind this, for example, or what the lines were like exactly.

15 Q. I would just like to ask you to mark with an M where the Miljacka

16 flows.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. But in your statement you did mention that the shots came from the

19 territory which was controlled by the army of the Republika Srpska; is

20 that right? So could I infer that you knew where the borders between the

21 two factions were?

22 A. Well, that's what I have been telling you. The way we saw the

23 situation, the Miljacka river was some sort of a relative border. But I

24 can't tell you about anything else.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have now concluded

Page 1488

1 my cross-examination.

2 I would like to thank the witness for her cooperation. Thank you.

3 I apologise, I would like to offer this as evidence, as a Defence

4 exhibit, and I would like the registrar to give me an exhibit number,

5 please.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be admitted.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number D37.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?

9 MR. DOCHERTY: None, Your Honour, thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence.

11 Thank you for giving it, and you may now leave.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, next witness.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, the next witness will be handled by

15 my colleague, Mr. Waespi. May I be excused at this time?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as we are

20 concerned, with your leave I would just like to change seats, because the

21 counsel next to me is going to cross-examine the witness, so it's easier

22 for us to just change seats.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't think you need permission for that,

24 but I'm happy to give it anyhow.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1489

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can't hear counsel

2 because he is not speaking into an open microphone. Thank you.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the witness's name.

4 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

5 Honours. I don't think we mentioned it, but the witness is Kemal Buco.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, Mr. President, while we are all waiting,

8 this is a witness the Prosecution has presented as 92 ter. And I will

9 show to the witness two documents, perhaps one photo, and I will lead him

10 in chief, perhaps, for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, so it should not take that

11 long, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

13 MR. WAESPI: And perhaps also to save time, the first document I

14 would like to show to the witness will be ter number 02888.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

20 And you may begin, Mr. Waespi.

21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examination by Mr. Waespi:

25 Q. Good morning, Witness.

Page 1490

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Can you please state your full name on the record, please.

3 A. Buco Kemal.

4 Q. Mr. Buco, did you give a witness statement on the 23rd of

5 February, 1996, to the ICTY investigators? Do you remember that?

6 A. I remember.

7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, if the witness statement, the English

8 version, could be put onto the screen.

9 Q. Mr. Buco, can you look at the statement and tell Their Honours

10 whether that is the statement which you gave to the ICTY investigators,

11 and whether that's indeed your signature, as it appears to be?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the witness's first name Buco or is it Kemal.


16 Q. Is your first name Kemal? Is that correct?

17 A. My first name is Kemal; my last name is Buco.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 MR. WAESPI: You're welcome. Mr. President, if we can see the

20 whole document, please, the next page and the last page.

21 Q. And, Mr. Buco, did you also have a chance to review this statement

22 in my office a few days ago?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And after having read this statement, did you clarify a few issues

25 in this statement? And you also provided some additional information

Page 1491

1 about the death of a girl and a few remarks about the general situation in

2 Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. WAESPI: Mrs. Court Usher, if we could have 65 ter number

5 02893, please, displayed.

6 And while that's being done -- I don't think we have received it

7 yet. I will repeat the number. It is 0283. This should be an

8 information report dated the 29th of January --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid

11 confusion, this first number, 2930, is incorrect. The correct one is

12 0283.

13 MR. WAESPI: I'm very obliged to you, Mr. Tapuskovic. Thank you

14 very much, if that is the case.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic, for that

16 correction.

17 MR. WAESPI: I'm told it's 2893. That's the number I had

18 initially read out. 02893.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Proceed.

20 I just want to make sure, Mr. Tapuskovic, you have the number now,

21 2893.

22 MR. WAESPI: We have it now on the screen.



25 Q. Mr. Buco, can you have a look perhaps at the B/C/S version on the

Page 1492

1 right side of your screen. That's your language. Are these the

2 clarifications you gave in my office a few days ago?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Now, in regard to these two documents, the witness statement of

5 February 1996 and this information report of a few days ago, are you

6 satisfied -- [Microphone not activated].

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm trying to get my mic off but it isn't

8 responding. I thought there might have been a connection there. It's off

9 now.

10 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I think we might have resolved it.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed.

12 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. In relation to these two documents, Mr. Buco, are you satisfied,

14 and can you attest now to the Court, that the witness statement and the

15 information report accurately reflect your evidence and the answers you

16 would give now, if asked, about the same matters under oath?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. Buco.

19 Mr. President, if we could have two exhibit numbers for these

20 documents, please.


22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number

23 P158. Sorry, P158 is for the statement bearing 65 ter number 2888, and

24 P159 will be the document bearing 65 ter number 2893.

25 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Madam Court Usher.

Page 1493

1 Mr. President, with your leave, a few questions from Mr. Buco to

2 these matters.

3 Q. The first one is: What is your profession, Mr. Buco?

4 A. I am an engineer of agronomy.

5 Q. And what do you currently do for a living?

6 A. I'll retired now.

7 Q. And back in 1994 in Sarajevo, what was your profession then?

8 A. Before I retired, I had been working in the republican ministry as

9 a state security inspector. During the war I was asked to assist them in

10 collecting statements from persons who were victims of war in order to

11 prepare the documents for the Hague Tribunal in issuing indictments.

12 Q. And doing that, did you have to wear a uniform?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Would you, as part of your duties, attend crime scenes?

15 A. No. I only took statements from the victims, and based on these

16 statements I compiled my own reports.

17 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, if the witness could be shown 65 ter

18 number 02887, which is a document dated 24th November 1994 and entitled

19 "Official Report."

20 Q. My question to the witness would be, while this is being

21 retrieved: Is that one of the reports you would draw up as part of your

22 duties?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you draft this report, Mr. Buco?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 1494

1 Q. And can you tell Their Honours what this report is about, very,

2 very briefly.

3 A. It was a report about an incident which took place on the 23rd of

4 November, 1994. A team of experts visited the scene together with two

5 ballistic experts and a technician in order to assess how this situation

6 occurred, where the bullet had come from, what kind of bullet it was.

7 Based on their statements and reports, I prepared my own report; and also

8 on the basis of statements taken later from the victims.

9 Q. Now, I would just like you to comment on one or two sentences from

10 this report, and on the English version, on the left side, it starts a

11 little bit after the middle of the page, "At 1530 hours..." and the same

12 should be in the B/C/S investigation.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. But I would like to quote four lines down from that paragraph, and

15 I'll read it out slowly.

16 "The bullet was fired from south or south-east (in relation to the

17 area of the tram which was hit from the direction of Grbavica) penetrated

18 into the tram through the open window (the last window next to the

19 connecting platform of the tram on the left). On the top right corner of

20 the last window on the right in the front section of the tram, two traces

21 were seen caused by the bullet which hit the tram."

22 Do you see that, Mr. Buco?

23 A. Yes, I do. I see it.

24 Q. I have two questions. The first one - and you might have touched

25 upon that in your previous answer - based on what did you put into the

Page 1495

1 report the direction of fire coming from Grbavica? Did somebody tell

2 you? Did you find it out yourself?

3 A. This was based on the ballistic reports, and on the basis of the

4 reports of these ballistics experts, I put this in my report, too.

5 Q. And I believe you listed the names of these two ballistics experts

6 on --

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 And the second question I wanted to ask you: Here it says - and

10 these are your words - that the bullet penetrated into the tram through

11 the open window. At the same time, you say that two traces were seen

12 caused by the bullet which hit the tram. Can you explain what you meant

13 when you wrote this sentence down?

14 A. As I said, based on the ballistic reports, this is what I wrote,

15 literally as they this described it, and that's how I put it in my report.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Buco. Let me show you one photograph.

17 MR. WAESPI: This is P -- it's already an existing exhibit, P88.

18 Can the participants in the courtroom see the picture?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, we don't have it on the screen.

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I apologise, I should be a bit more patient.

21 Q. While I do that, Mr. Buco, and here we do have the picture, can

22 you point to this photograph and tell, if you can - and I believe you need

23 the assistance of the usher - if you can point to Their Honours the

24 location where you believe the incident that you investigated took place.

25 A. The ballistic expert established that this location was between

Page 1496

1 the secondary school of engineering and the Marshal Tito barracks. On

2 this side here there is also the museum there and the museum of the

3 revolution.

4 Are these the two locations that you were referring to?

5 Q. So these two crosses you made, that's in between where you say the

6 incident took place about the trams?

7 A. Yes, yes, that's it.

8 Q. And the --

9 A. That's what I had been told. Let us make this very clear. This

10 was what the ballistics claimed, and also the witnesses who gave

11 statements.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

13 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if this exhibit could be tendered,

14 could you given a number as well.


16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P160.

17 MR. WAESPI: And lastly, if the witness could be -- could be shown

18 another exhibit - and this will be the last one - which is 65 ter number

19 00059, a document dated 15 December 1994 and entitled "Official Note."

20 Q. Mr. Buco, can you recognise this document?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And can you tell Their Honours what it is?

23 A. It's a note that I made based on witness statements who sustained

24 injuries and who were in the hospital. It wasn't done on the same day.

25 It took a few days for them to recover a little, for the patients to be

Page 1497

1 able to give statements, and we asked them to describe what and how it had

2 happened.

3 Q. And does this report relate to the same incident we have been

4 discussing with the previous report you drafted?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we could also have an exhibit

7 number --


9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be become Exhibit number

10 P161.

11 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much for this, Madam Court Deputy.

12 One or two more questions, Mr. President.

13 Q. Mr. Buco, did you ever hear as part of your professional

14 activities that shots wounding Bosnian Muslim citizens, indeed citizens of

15 Sarajevo within the territory controlled by the Bosnian Muslim army, were

16 shot by Bosnian Muslims? Have you any knowledge of that?

17 A. I think that was absurd. But, no, I never heard of any such

18 incident.

19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further

20 questions.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [No interpretation].

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the problem? I didn't have that

24 translated.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher give the lectern

Page 1498

1 to my colleague, please.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, before Defence counsel

4 takes the floor, I have a small question to put to you.

5 If I have understood you correctly, you were a state security

6 inspector of the republic and you were working for the state ministry.

7 What is your exact title? I think that is your exact title.

8 And you drafted your report on the basis of a report provided by

9 two ballistics experts and two technicians. I would like to know who

10 these ballistics experts worked for, which state ministry. These

11 technicians also, who these people were, who reported to whom? And which

12 ministry did they work for, these two experts?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is written in the note their

14 titles and who they worked for.

15 As for me, before the war, I worked at the Ministry of the

16 Interior, State Ministry of the Interior, as a state security inspector.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you were asked a question by the Judge

18 and you must answer it. You don't answer it by saying, "It is written in

19 the note." Now let us know for whom do they work.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They worked for the Ministry of the

21 Interior, the cantonal ministry, which is now the canton of Sarajevo. And

22 they were this ministry's officials. At the time it was called the

23 security services centre.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So you belonged to the same

25 ministry as the two inspectors; is that right?

Page 1499

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was just seconded to them,

2 to assist them.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course the

5 Prosecution has decided which tactic to apply in this case, and they

6 questioned this witness for about half an hour. I don't know how much

7 time I will need. I am not going into this tactic that is currently being

8 applied by the Prosecution and put to me in such a situation. What I'm

9 interested in is to know how much time has been allotted to me for

10 cross-examination.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much time do you need?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can tell you that immediately

13 after the break, and to try to survive as a Defence counsel the next 20

14 minutes in order to put together all these things introduced by the

15 Prosecution, all these contradictory issues and things. I am not a

16 magician and I cannot do that under such circumstances.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will be reasonable in its allocation

18 of time to you for cross-examination. Start.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. Witness, I would try to ask you

22 the following, and after that I'm going to seek some explanations from

23 you: Is it really true that these two statements that you made - one long

24 an ago and the other one that was given to us the day before yesterday -

25 that they actually reflect the situation as it was; yes or no?

Page 1500

1 A. They are based on all of these reports.

2 Q. Is it also fair to say that you stand by that is the truth, what

3 you said years ago and what you also said in this supplemental information

4 given to me the day before yesterday?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please tell me now, you are an engineer of agronomy;

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. As an engineer of agronomy, you took statements from witnesses

10 relating to very delicate issues and situations involving the killings

11 caused by snipers and other plights of the people; is that true?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So my direct question is, how did you have enough courage with

14 your expertise of an engineer of agronomy - I know what it involves; I

15 sometimes plant a tree myself - how do you think you were able to give any

16 kind of assessment about these issues?

17 A. I had been working in the police for ten years before the war.

18 To be precise, state security.

19 Q. Were you involved in serious crimes?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you know nothing about the murders and the killings of the

22 civilians?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Excellent. So, all of your conclusion were based, firstly, on

25 taking statements from the witnesses themselves and, secondly, things that

Page 1501

1 other people told you.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you check anything yourself once you had these documents in

4 front of you in terms of whether these documents faithfully reflected the

5 situation on the ground? I mean as reflected in your witness

6 examinations.

7 A. That was not part of my job description.

8 Q. Did you perhaps have -- were you a boss or something?

9 A. I was the so-called criminal inspector, but I never really was

10 one. That was just my assignment. Just to make this clear, I was just a

11 helper. As I said at the outset, I was helping the team collect

12 statements from victims in order to have enough material and documents for

13 The Hague, based on the statements of victims.

14 Q. But in order to produce enough material for this Tribunal, the

15 International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, was it not your

16 duty to do your best to collect the sort of evidence that might be helpful

17 to the court? Was it not your duty to check certain things before ...

18 A. No.

19 Q. In other words, anybody was free to tell you whatever they liked

20 and you would have taken it at face value; is that right?

21 A. No, that's not right.

22 Q. Well, then, I don't understand. Can you tell Chamber, please, how

23 exactly did you go about this?

24 A. I based everything on the statements provided by the victims,

25 people who came to grief in one way or another. And probably all those

Page 1502

1 victims will be testifying in this trial, as far as I know.

2 Q. What exactly did those people know, the victims? They had been

3 injured. What were they able to tell you? They had nearly lost their

4 lives. What were they able to tell you, or was it you who told them what

5 had occurred?

6 A. No, I never let anyone say anything at all.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Pretty soon the interpreter is going to be asking

8 you to observe a pause between question and answer. Do you understand,

9 Witness? For the benefit of the interpreters --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I understand.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's my mistake. I always get

12 carried away. It's always at the expense of the accused, but what can I

13 do? Sometimes I'm just not fully in control. I just don't have full

14 control over the pace of my examination.

15 Q. At any rate, do you abide by these documents that were placed

16 before the Chamber by the OTP? You confirm that they are absolutely true

17 and faithful, don't you?

18 A. I abide by whatever I heard from any of the witnesses and by

19 whatever I wrote based on that.

20 Q. Maybe this has not been interpreted, but I must ask you again.

21 Did the witnesses tell you where they had been hit from? Did they tell

22 you all these things in the condition in which they were in when they were

23 brought to a hospital? Did you bring them there? Did anybody else bring

24 them there? Do you know what their condition was? Was it not the fact

25 that they were unable, because of their condition, to determine all these

Page 1503

1 things? But then police inspectors came along and they made suggestions

2 to them as to where they had been hit from.

3 A. Nobody made any suggestions to anyone else. Nobody made any

4 representations to anyone else. There were ballistics experts and they

5 determined where the bullets had come from. As for witnesses who were

6 injured, they told us what they had been through. That's all they ever

7 told us.

8 Q. So it is your evidence that none of the witnesses ever told you

9 where they had been hit from, where the bullet had come from, and they

10 weren't able to in the condition that they were in.

11 A. No. As far as I remember, nobody ever told me anything like that.

12 Q. Very well. You still consider yourself to be a top-notch expert,

13 although you were never trained in the science of ballistics. You know

14 nothing about snipers; you know nothing about the various calibres of

15 these weapons, do you?

16 A. I never said I was an expert. Again, I repeat: I'm no expert.

17 All I did was what I was told to do: Take statements, write up reports,

18 statements/report. They're right there.

19 Q. All right. Based on such reports, a person here stands indicted

20 of killing God knows how many people, based on such reports?

21 A. Are you expecting me to tell you anything?

22 Q. Just tell me if it was based on such reports that it was

23 ascertained that someone had been killed by a sniper.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. While producing these reports, why did you never ask

Page 1504

1 an officer to help you?

2 A. You go and call an officer to help you. You have many officers

3 around here, don't you?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't understand the answer. The question

5 was: "While producing these reports, why did you never ask an officer to

6 help you?" Don't get excited. Just answer the question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no need. May I be allowed

8 to continue?

9 There was no need for me to do that. I had a team doing just

10 that. People who were experts in the field, ballistics experts, they

11 ascertained where the shots had come from and what the bullets were. Am I

12 supposed to go on philosophising, asking further explanations, when

13 there's no need for that at all?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just to clarify, what I said was I didn't

15 understand the answer, not I didn't understand the question.

16 Let's proceed.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't even know

18 what my language is called, but in the Bosnian language, what the witness

19 told me was that I should myself call officers to do that. He said, "You

20 should be the one calling the officers."

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The comment I made had nothing to do with that,

22 Mr. Tapuskovic. Let us proceed.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I know, Your Honour, but I'm sure

24 you're doing your best to keep this cross-examination normal. I don't

25 think this is the right thing for a witness to do, to answer me back like

Page 1505

1 this. I can ask him a direct question. I'll tell you, I'll be calling

2 generals to be testifying about these things.

3 Q. Why did you not call in a simple military officer at the time, a

4 captain or someone like that, someone who knew about weapons, to look into

5 this for you, so that you might be able to present better evidence before

6 this court? We would have had an expert assessing evidence and that would

7 have spelled less trouble for us. Can you explain that to the Court?

8 A. There was never an order for me to do anything like that.


10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I believe the witness said that they were part

11 of a team, that there were ballistics experts who did that. He didn't say

12 he was on his own.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but I allowed it because this question is a

14 little different. It's asking him more specifically, why didn't he call

15 in a military officer, a captain or someone like that. That's why I

16 allowed it.

17 What is your answer to that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was never an order for me to

19 do anything like that regarding the army, the military. We never used any

20 assistance from the military in that sense. We believed that our

21 ballistic experts were perfectly capable of resolving the situation and

22 ascertaining where the bullets were coming from. That was, after all,

23 their job, wasn't it?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

25 Mr. Tapuskovic, you have the answer. Let us proceed.

Page 1506

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Before I understand you correctly, you're trying to say that your

3 own police superiors ordered you to never, under any conditions, call in

4 any military officers who knew about weapons. You were to get the job

5 done just like that; no supervision, no experts involved. And then you

6 just submit the whole thing to the Hague Prosecutor; is that right?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think Mr. Waespi is standing to say that

8 the witness did not say that precisely.

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes, and also there were experts, so you cannot put

10 to him that he said -- you know, he was told not to bring experts.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you should move on. I think this

12 particular line of questioning has been exhausted. Let's move on to

13 another area.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will move on, but I still think

15 I have not received a good answer. Can the witness explain --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic --

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- it's for the Chamber now to make up its mind

19 as to the credibility of the witness on this issue, and I have instructed

20 you to move on to another topic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will have to raise something

22 that I was going to raise at the very end, if there's time left. Perhaps

23 I can manage this before the break.

24 Q. I would like to ask the witness if he knew anything about his own

25 units. He was, after all, a police inspector, wasn't he? So what I want

Page 1507

1 to know is how familiar the witness is with the numbers of police officers

2 in the middle of Sarajevo, in the middle of the war, going about their

3 work, all of them armed?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Therefore, you don't know that there were about 20.000 armed

6 police officers walking around Sarajevo. Were you armed yourself?

7 A. No.

8 Q. We had a witness here, a well-regarded witness, someone from NATO,

9 who took an oath here and testified that there was not a single child in

10 Sarajevo at the time that was unarmed, yet you, as a police inspector,

11 claim never to have carried a weapon. How is that possible?

12 A. I never carried a weapon; it's as simple as that.

13 Q. Where was your police administration based, and how many armed

14 people were there? You say you weren't armed, but were there police

15 officers who were armed - machine-guns, pistols, howitzers even?

16 A. It's a ridiculous question. I don't know.

17 Q. The police had no APCs, did they?

18 A. No.

19 Q. They didn't have a single mortar, did they?

20 A. No, none. There was no need for that.

21 Q. I'm trying to ask you this question as if I were a prosecutor not

22 a defence counsel. The police were never involved in defensive

23 operations, were they?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Were you in Sarajevo during that offensive?

Page 1508

1 A. I was in Sarajevo throughout. That's easy.

2 Q. Throughout the war; right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Yet you say that the police never took part, with their own forces

5 numbering about 15.000 or 20.000 people, never took part at least in that

6 one offensive in the summer of 1995?

7 A. What offensive are you talking about?

8 Q. So you know nothing about the offensive that was launched on the

9 15th and the 16th along all the confrontation lines?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You don't know about that either, do you?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. So, then, you probably know nothing about the positions of the BH

14 army, do you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Fair enough. Let me ask you this: You were born in Sarajevo;

17 right.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At least you're familiar with Sarajevo's geography; right?

20 Sarajevo was a well-liked town. We all liked it. We all went there. We

21 all got along fine.

22 A. Yes, yes, yes.

23 Q. Do you at least know the streets?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You know the streets?

Page 1509

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You know the hills?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You know the hills?

5 A. Not their names.

6 Q. You know where Trebevic is, don't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What about Colina Kapa?

9 A. That's where the aggressors were.

10 Q. At Colina Kapa?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. They were at Debelo Brdo, too, weren't

13 they?

14 A. Yes, the aggressors were all around Sarajevo on all the hills.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic and the witness, if you look at

16 the transcript, you will see that the interpreters are asking you to slow

17 down. You're overlapping, so you must both exercise discipline and rigour

18 in this matter.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

20 Q. So, the aggressor was at Debelo Brdo, too?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. The aggressor was at Mojmilo, weren't they?

23 A. Yes, in part.

24 Q. At the foot of the hill or at the top of the hill?

25 A. The aggressor took all of the elevations, all the high points

Page 1510

1 around Sarajevo, and we were down there. We were cannon fodder. We were

2 just clay pigeons for them to fire at. And they fired at will.

3 Q. That's what the indictment says. That's why I'm asking you.

4 A. No, no. We were clay pigeons, I'm telling you.

5 Q. What about the Mojmilo ridge? It's 3 kilometres long. And you

6 know the lay of the land. You know that the hill was under the command of

7 the army of Republika Srpska, under their control; right?

8 A. I'm not saying anything. All I know is that my flat was shelled

9 from that side once; then twice. I moved to another flat again. The

10 shells came from the same side. The third time around I was shelled in my

11 own office at Skenderija. It all came from the same direction.

12 Q. I believe you.

13 A. You'd do well to believe me.

14 Q. I believe you, that this was the case. But let me ask you about

15 your office.

16 A. At Skenderija, that's where the office was. It was across the way

17 from the centre. What's it called?

18 Q. I hadn't finished my question.

19 A. I apologise.

20 Q. I asked you about your office. Your office was part of this

21 police station. You never carried any weapons, thank God for that. But

22 there were a lot of armed police officers there, weren't they?

23 A. No, not in my building, not a single one.

24 Q. A total of how many people there?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 1511

1 Q. You don't know how many people worked in your office?

2 A. No, not in my office. I'm talking about the whole building.

3 Q. You were an inspector. I know that you had your own office to

4 yourself and that you were the only person in that office, and you were

5 preparing all these documents that we are now considering.

6 A. No, not just this. I did a whole lot of things.

7 Q. I'm asking you about the total number of police officers in that

8 building.

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Not even an approximate figure?

11 A. No. Sorry about that.

12 Q. You don't know how many police stations there were in Sarajevo

13 with armed police officers?

14 A. I don't know. I wasn't into that.

15 Q. The police officers were not in the least interested in defending

16 the citizens of Sarajevo who were being shelled from those hills all

17 around?

18 A. The police had its own job cut out for it. It was the usual

19 police job, the sort of job that police officers always do. We all know

20 what the role of the police is.

21 Q. If the role of the police is what I know it to be, which is, above

22 all, to see to it that none of the citizens are killed, would that seem to

23 imply that you know nothing about the Serb, Muslim and Croat civilians

24 being killed down there, you know, by people in Sarajevo who were under

25 the control of the BH army? You know nothing about that, do you?

Page 1512

1 A. No, nothing at all.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are going to take a break for 20 minutes

3 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you have another 15 minutes.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must have dropped

8 at least half the questions that I had for this witness. However, 15

9 minutes is not even enough for five questions. I can start and then ...

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us see how we get on.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Please take that into account.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is here

17 to testify about countless incidents. I understand he is no expert, and

18 that's why I have dropped at least two-thirds of my questions. Only

19 experts can answer these questions. However, I am compelled to ask him a

20 number of questions. I have very few documents here. I'm giving up

21 everything that he seems to know nothing about, that is, the hills around

22 Sarajevo although he is a native of Sarajevo.

23 I do have to ask the witness about these two documents that were

24 tendered by the OTP. D158; that is the statement dated the 23rd of

25 February; and the other statement, the 65 ter statement - I'm not sure

Page 1513

1 what the numbers are - 02893. This is the statement that he provided some

2 days ago. I do have to bring up these two, which will take at least 15

3 minutes, and then I will be showing you those documents.

4 If we could please have the first statement brought up on our

5 screens, page 1. The number is P158.


7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, if on line -- page 70, line 24 and 25, is

8 mentioned the name and the name should be redacted. Unfortunately, I was

9 careless.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. That will be done.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just page 1, is that at page 1,

12 Mr. Prosecutor? I won't be mentioning any names at all.

13 MR. WAESPI: No, I am not mentioning your document. I was

14 mentioning something that I said earlier, unrelated to your documents.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us not waste time.

16 Could we then have P158? It was tendered a minute ago. Page 2.

17 I have several questions based on page 2 of that document. I'll just be

18 mentioning his name.

19 I've nothing on my screen, on either of my screens. There's

20 nothing at all.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We now have something on the screen.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 Q. Witness, here is the beginning of your statement. I'm not

24 mentioning you, but in the second sentence you say: "From May 1994 to

25 March 1995 I volunteered" --

Page 1514

1 A. In the genocide department.

2 Q. I am not that far along yet. I'm about to tell you that. You

3 worked in the genocide department between 1994 and March 1995 in Sarajevo

4 and no where else. That's what you claim. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you then explain to the Chamber about 1994 and 1995. What was

7 this genocide about? If you could please provide a detailed explanation.

8 What exactly constituted this genocide? Was that the firing going on

9 between the two parties or was there a genocide? And what exactly do you

10 mean when you say "genocide?"

11 A. It's stated very clearly. I worked as an inspector. I collected

12 documents about crimes that the security services centre dealt with. It's

13 not only in reference to this period of time. It's not only between 1994

14 and 1995. It was throughout the war. Whatever was going on, people would

15 come to see me and to give statements. These statements were something

16 that I wrote down. That was part of a final report. And then documents

17 were compiled for the benefit of this Tribunal from the whole of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina, just to make that perfectly clear.

19 Q. But that is just not right, is it? It reads: "Between May 1994,"

20 not throughout the war, as you say. "Between May 1994 and March 1995, I

21 worked on a voluntary basis as an inspector for Sarajevo in the genocide

22 department." No other position is indicated here, nothing about the rest

23 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is expressly stated here "genocide

24 Sarajevo" and the period of time indicated here, which is also the period

25 of time covered by the indictment against Dragomir Milosevic. Can you

Page 1515

1 please explain what exactly constituted genocide in Sarajevo in 1994 and

2 1995?

3 A. You misunderstand me. I did work there between 1994 and 1995, I

4 mean collecting information. But it wasn't information in relation to

5 that period alone. It was information in relation to the entire duration

6 of the war and what happened to people, various genocidal situations.

7 They came to me. I collected all of this. There are volumes and volumes,

8 endless volumes of statements. It's not just a handful of statements.

9 Those were countless people giving statements. I lose track exactly of

10 how many there were who I interviewed, who came to me to give their

11 statement. It's not only about this period here, 1994 to 1995. The whole

12 war was a genocide.

13 Q. Mr. Witness, I appreciate your explanation, but please, in your

14 second statement, why didn't you say so and correct it in the way you just

15 did? In the first statement you categorical said that you dealt only with

16 the Sarajevo area in the years of 1994 and 1995, not before or after.

17 A. We still don't understand each other.

18 Q. Of course we don't.

19 A. I was based in Sarajevo. Do you understand that? My office was

20 in Sarajevo, but people from various places all over Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 came to see me and give statements. Do you understand now?

22 Q. I'm not going to waste any more time. It will be up to the

23 Chamber to evaluate this. You did tell untruths someplace.

24 A. I never said any untruthful things, and I adhere to everything I

25 said.

Page 1516

1 Q. Well, let's see now. I'm going to skip a lot of questions.

2 In paragraph 3, when you talk about tram number 263, you said

3 that:

4 "At around 1530 it was hit by one bullet of undetermined calibre

5 which splintered and wounded Hafiza Karacic and Sabina Sabanic. The

6 bullet went through the rubber part where the tram carriages are joined,

7 so it was not obvious to the driver that the tram had been shot. The

8 bullet was of a fragmentation type."

9 You, as an expert, stated this.

10 A. No. I said that I wrote my reports based on the reports and

11 evidence collected by ballistics experts.


13 Mr. Waespi is on his feet.

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic repeatedly refers to the witness

15 as expert, and he said a number of times before that he is it not an

16 expert, that he did what he did. So please don't misrepresent the

17 evidence of the witness.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. He has expressly, in answer

19 to you, said that he was not an expert. Let's move on.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Very well. As an expert in agronomy, you just said the following,

22 in paragraph 3, towards the end:

23 "The driver in this case mentioned hearing a burst of fire and

24 passengers referring to stones being thrown at the tram, indicating that

25 there was more than one bullet."

Page 1517

1 Does that correspond to the actual situation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I will skip everything else pertaining to

4 this statement.

5 A. There is no need for that.

6 Q. Of course there is no need for that. You are not an expert.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, stop wasting time and stop the


9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Witness, let us look at the second statement of yours that you

11 made the other day.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 02893. If we can

13 have it in front of the witness, please. It has been tendered a short

14 while ago. 02893, that's what I wrote down.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's Exhibit P159. And it's not a statement;

17 it's an information report written by us but shown to the witness.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It was shown to the witness. He

19 confirmed its authenticity. And in both the documents he said he stood by

20 what they contained.

21 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't know what you want me to discuss now

23 with you.

24 Q. I will continue. In paragraph 2 concerning the statement given on

25 the 23rd of November, 1996, it says that:

Page 1518

1 "The bullet passed through the rubber part where the tram

2 carriages are joined. The witness says that he cannot really explain that

3 sentence. Both reports say that the bullet came through the window. The

4 witness said that he might have made a mistake, or it was mistakenly

5 translated into English."

6 Now can you please explain to the Chamber, not to me, how is it

7 possible for you to say something like this the other day and to confirm

8 both your statements? Can you explain that?

9 A. Yes, I can. This is what happened. Concerning the bullet passing

10 through the rubber part, that's not correct because that's not something

11 that I said. I think that an interpreter made a mistake when he was

12 translating from B/C/S into English. These two women were close to this

13 rubber section of the tram, and that was where the mistake was made, the

14 two women who were shot. And the bullet, as far as the information I

15 received from the ballistics expert, the bullet passed through the window.

16 Q. It's such a huge discrepancy I'm not going to deal with that any

17 longer?

18 A. It's not such a huge discrepancy.

19 Q. When did you tell the truth?

20 A. I always tell the truth.

21 Q. Thank you very much. It will be up to Their Honours to decide

22 that.

23 Now, the next passage, the witness says that on the 23rd of

24 November, 1994, he stayed in the area. "The trams were hit only very

25 briefly because it was very dangerous."

Page 1519

1 I see from this that you were on the spot and yet you said that

2 you never visited the scene.

3 A. I never visited the scene when it happened. Of course I didn't go

4 to the scene and I wasn't even then there. We just passed by the location

5 in a car. We went to Remiza to make the report.

6 Q. So this is also not true. When you made the statement the other

7 day, you didn't tell the truth.

8 A. I wasn't on the spot.

9 Q. You said you did?

10 A. No, that's not true.

11 Q. Mr. Witness, you said that you stayed very briefly on the

12 location.

13 A. No. We just briefly passed by the location.

14 Q. Thank you very much. This will again be evaluated by the Chamber.

15 At the end of your statement, if we can please look at the next

16 page, can you see it? The end of your statement, and this is what you say

17 here.

18 "The witness also said that his main job was not to go to crime

19 scenes and do investigations. His prime task was to collect evidence for

20 the Hague Tribunal based on information he got from witnesses all over

21 Bosnia."

22 This is something that you mentioned today, but in this specific

23 document it is obvious that you did go to crime scenes at least once.

24 A. No. I again ascertain that we passed by the place where the

25 incident occurred. Even if we had wanted to remain there, we couldn't

Page 1520

1 have done so because snipers were still active. I'm not a fool to risk my

2 life.


4 MR. WAESPI: Yes. He stated clearly that the witness also

5 said "that his main job was not to go to crime scenes," and,

6 Mr. Tapuskovic, you put to the witness that "You did go to the crime

7 scenes."

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I just put it to

9 the witness that he said that he had only visited the crime scene once.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not once.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied with this answer,

12 but I would like to present to the Chamber a document, DD00-02428, and I

13 would like to draw the attention of Their Honours to the B/C/S version.

14 It's dated the 24th of November, which is exactly around the time of this

15 incident. I would like you, Your Honours, to look at the B/C/S version.

16 I'm not going to ask anything of the witness, and I would just like to

17 show you how -- what procedure was applied in these kinds of incidents.

18 Could you please take a look at this document, DD00-02428, dated

19 the 24th of November, 1994. Your Honours, please just look at those

20 pages, 1; then page 2. Please look at this. Now page 3. There is

21 another page and there's another page as well. That's the last one.

22 This is the basis on which you are supposed to establish the

23 truth. These kinds of documents which are blurry, the things that can

24 probably show how the indictment is unfounded, they are so blurred that

25 they are totally illegible.

Page 1521


2 MR. WAESPI: First of all, I don't think I do have an English

3 translation of the document; and second, I don't understand the question

4 he is putting to the witness. Does he blame him for the quality of -- the

5 blurred quality of this image, or -- I don't understand.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is impossible to translate

7 this document to any language at all. No one can read this. This is --

8 this was intentionally blurred because presumably this will show the whole

9 truth about the incidents from that period. And that was done on purpose,

10 probably by the witness that we have here today.

11 Q. What does the witness have to say about this?

12 A. This is something that I see for the first time.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to expedite my

15 questioning, if you, Your Honours, would just grant me a few minutes more.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you continue, I must warn you against

17 impugning the character of the witness without any foundation. You said

18 that this was something probably done by the witness. Do you have any

19 basis for saying that?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document deals

21 with the events produced by his department, and it could have been greatly

22 helpful in shedding light on the tram incident, et cetera.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was not my question. It is irresponsible of

24 counsel to make wild accusations. Do you have any kind of evidence that

25 this blurring of the document was done by this witness? I'm asking you.

Page 1522

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I apologise to the

2 witness.

3 Q. Does he know --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's an apology well made, and in the future you

5 must avoid wild accusations, because counsel has certain responsibilities

6 and a code of conduct, certain ethical standards that must be observed.

7 You went over the line.

8 Let us proceed.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I am prepared to take

10 responsibility for this. I will not comment any further. I have my

11 opinion, and I thought it would have been helpful for you to look at

12 this. Maybe I shouldn't have done so. I take note of your caution, and I

13 will take due care in future when these kinds of things arise.

14 Q. Let me first ask the witness this: Does he know -- and there's a

15 document that I have obtained. It has about 700 or 800 pages, and only

16 the relative pages are to be translated. It's a war log of the army of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina. In this war log of the BH army for the 18th of

18 November - that is the day when this little girl was killed - it says

19 under the date, 18th November 1994, and I quote, and I would like to ask

20 the witness if he is aware of this.

21 Okay, a child was killed --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

23 MR. WAESPI: I'm not sure I am following which incidents counsel

24 means. If he refers to a killing of a young girl by a sniper that's

25 referred to by the witness in his information report - Your Honours,

Page 1523

1 that's paragraph 4 of this note - it says that the incident occurred a few

2 days after the shooting of the trams, which would be after the 23rd of

3 November. But you're asking him something about the 18th of November.

4 Just so that you are aware of this discrepancy.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: What incident are you talking about? And after

6 this, one more question, Mr. Tapuskovic, and then you are to wind up.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There will be this document and

9 then another document produced by UNPROFOR. I have an abundance of other

10 documents as well.

11 Your Honours, I'm quoting, and I would like to ask the witness if

12 he knows that in the war log of the BH army, an entry dated 18 November

13 1994, it says as follows:

14 Q. "In the Sarajevo battlefield, our units only opened fire

15 intermittently during the day. However, there was a fierce exchange of

16 fire between UNPROFOR and the aggressor at around 9.00 p.m. from small

17 arms. As a result of the shelling of the city, a child was killed."

18 This is what is written in the war log of the BH army. I'm just

19 asking if he knows about this.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Very well. Since this incident that we discussed happened on the

22 23rd of November, I have an UNPROFOR report only partly translated. It's

23 an English version. DD00-0436. So United Nations, UNPROFOR. And later

24 on I will tender this for identification as evidence.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am going to read just a small

Page 1524

1 portion relating to the 23rd of November, 1994. Let me read this. It's

2 page 2, an introduction, and this next page, if we can please have this in

3 front of the Judges, because the gentleman cannot speak English.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't speak English.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well. I'm not going to read it to you. Yes, that's it.

7 Midway down the page, under D.

8 "Sector Sarajevo. Commander, General Gobillard and his escort

9 came under cross-fire in the area of Butmir at 2230 hours. The General's

10 vehicle was hit by a single" - I think that probably means bullet - "no

11 casualties, damage to the vehicle. It was not a direct targeting of


13 Do you know that UNPROFOR people were caught in a cross-fire on

14 that day, the 23rd?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

17 Honours. I thank the witness. I thank the Chamber. And I, yet again,

18 apologise to the witness for my previous insinuation. Thank you.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much for your testimony,

21 Mr. Witness.

22 You have provided information the Chamber with a piece of

23 information that was quite new today, namely, the fact that you assembled

24 your reports for the purposes of providing this Tribunal with evidence.

25 And I'm curious to know if you can tell us a bit more about how this came

Page 1525

1 about. Was there an instruction from the Ministry of the Interior, or was

2 it only an instruction from the cantonal Ministry of the Interior in

3 Sarajevo, to collect evidence and to prepare this evidence for

4 transmission to the criminal tribunal? Can you tell us a little more

5 about what kind of instruction was issued for this purpose, and who issued

6 it and when it was issued and how it was implemented?

7 A. The department for gathering material on genocide, is that what

8 you have in mind, sir?

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question relates to information that you have

10 given us today two or three times, where you told us that you made these

11 reports for the purpose of providing the Tribunal with evidence. So I

12 want you to expand a little more on that and to ask you, according to

13 which instructions did you prepare these reports, and was it an

14 instruction for collecting evidence for the Tribunal, for this Tribunal.

15 A. Well, it was at the level of the city of Sarajevo that a

16 department was set up for gathering information and documents on the

17 genocide. Any information obtained from victims or people who suffered

18 some sort of trauma during the war was gathered by us. They would come to

19 us and they would give us statements. I wasn't alone. There were several

20 inspectors gathering information. It was information on the aggressor to

21 the west and to the east, because this was going on in some areas that

22 were under the HVO at the time and also in the areas under Serbian

23 control.

24 We compiled all those statements. We drew up reports for both

25 sides, and that's how we submitted those documents for possible use by the

Page 1526

1 Tribunal. If that's what you had in mind, sir. That was the whole

2 department doing that, gathering information on the genocide.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. May I ask, was the department set up

4 specifically for the purpose of gathering information for the Tribunal?

5 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And who set this institution up?

7 A. [In English] I don't know.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, re-examination?

10 MR. WAESPI: No re-examination, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that constitutes your evidence. Thank

12 you for coming to give it. You may now leave.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 MR. WAESPI: If I could be excused as well, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly.

17 Mr. Docherty, your next witness.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, as its next witness, the Prosecution

19 calls Mr. Huso Palo.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

25 And you may begin, Mr. Docherty.

Page 1527


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Can you hear me all right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us your name, please, and your date of birth.

7 A. Huso Palo; 6th of October, 1932.

8 Q. Mr. Palo --

9 A. Yes, yes. Huso Palo.

10 Q. Mr. Palo, have you ever worked as a tram driver in Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. When did you do that?

13 A. From the 23rd of March until the end of the war, 1994.

14 Q. When you said the 23rd of March, what year was that in, sir?

15 A. 1993.

16 Q. Mr. Palo, on the 24th of February, 1996, did you meet with an

17 investigator from this Tribunal and make a statement?

18 A. Yes. At Nedzarici, on the premises of your Tribunal.

19 Q. And since arriving in The Hague to testify, have you taken the

20 opportunity to read that statement over carefully?

21 A. I didn't read anything. She asked me questions. I just answered

22 questions.

23 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Perhaps my question wasn't clear. You arrived in

24 The Hague three or four days ago; is that right?

25 A. Yes, last Friday, on the 26th.

Page 1528

1 Q. And earlier this week, do you remember meeting with me and an

2 interpreter in the offices here in this building?

3 A. Yes. Yes, three days ago.

4 Q. At that meeting, did you have an opportunity to re-read the

5 statement that you had given in 1996?

6 A. Well, yes, I think I can.

7 Q. Mr. Palo, my question was: Did you read it three days ago?

8 A. Yes, I did read the instructions. The oath, not the statement.

9 Q. Mr. Palo, did you three days ago re-read --

10 A. Please go ahead.

11 Q. -- in the Bosnian language the statement that you gave in 1996?

12 A. No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. Can't say that I did.

13 Q. Mr. Palo, would you like to see a copy of the statement that you

14 gave in 1996?

15 A. Well, you might. Yes, yes. Please, my eyesight is not very good,

16 but I'm sure I can handle it.

17 Q. Give us just one moment, Mr. Palo, Mr. President.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: It's been e-mailed to the court officer for

19 printing, Mr. President.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that the statement?

21 MR. DOCHERTY: And so that everyone in the courtroom could see it,

22 the statement has the 65 ter number 2889. And I wonder if I could ask

23 that that be displayed on the screens.

24 Q. And, Mr. Palo, could you just take a look at what is in front of

25 you and let us know if that is something that you have seen earlier this

Page 1529

1 week here in The Hague.

2 A. Everything is true, what I have just read.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, based on the last answer, I'll offer

4 into evidence the 65 ter number 2889, the ICTY witness statement of

5 Mr. Huso Palo.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is already an exhibit bearing

8 Exhibit number D36.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Your Honour, I think at this time that will

11 conclude my direct examination.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

13 Cross-examination.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would ask the court deputy to check on that

17 exhibit again, as my colleague, who keeps records very well, says D36 was

18 a photograph.

19 Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I was

21 trying to wrap up my previous examination, and in my haste I forgot to

22 tender this document as an exhibit. It's the UNPROFOR report. Just to

23 avoid returning to it.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will admit it.

Page 1530

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is our document, DD00- --

2 DD00-0436. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This

5 number, D36, perhaps it would be better to sort this out now because that

6 was presented by the Prosecution and can cannot be a D number; it should

7 be P something.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: My memory is that this document was shown to a

9 witness this morning, Ms. Sabanic. I don't remember, though, if it was

10 tendered or if it was simply shown to the witness. And our information is

11 also that D36 is an aerial photograph.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but in that case, D36 is a

13 photograph; it's not a statement. I would have liked to see it again, but

14 it's not D36.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] So I shall introduce myself. Good afternoon,

17 Witness. My name is Branislava Isailovic. I work for the Paris bar

18 association. If we have time, we shall start the cross-examination this

19 afternoon, but I might not have time to do much.

20 I would like to ask you a few questions concerning your statement,

21 the one you have just read, the one you have before you. And you

22 recognise that this is your statement --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, we had not given a number to the

24 UNPROFOR report tendered by Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the UNPROFOR report will be Exhibit

Page 1531

1 D38.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: And were you able to verify what D36 was?

3 The court deputy is working on that.

4 Well, we just have a few minutes before the break.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So, Witness, do you remember having made two statements? One was

7 made in Nedzarici and given to the Office of the Prosecutor, as you said,

8 and the other statement was given to the police that conducted the

9 investigation and what happened on the tram which you were driving on the

10 23rd of November, 1994.

11 A. Yes, I remember that well.

12 Q. Thank you. So let's have a look at these two statements now.

13 Firstly, let's look at the first statement you gave on the 24th of

14 November, 1994, which you gave to the policemen who were in charge of

15 investigating the accident that occurred on the 23rd of November, 1994.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this could be displayed on

17 the screen, please. For everybody concerned, this is number 694, page

18 17. It's a 65 ter document. It's the same document as the one previously

19 shown today. This should be document D35.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what I should say.

21 What I said here is all true. As for everything else, I don't know. I

22 don't remember. I remember giving two statements at Nedzarici.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, it's time for the adjournment.

24 Witness, you'll have to return on Monday morning at 9.00.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 9.00. Thank you. I understand.

Page 1532

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you're not to discuss your evidence with

2 anybody.

3 We're adjourned to 9.00 a.m. on Monday.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of

6 February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.