Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1533

1 Monday, 5 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you're to continue your

7 cross-examination.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It's true

9 that we didn't do much last week.

10 I will ask my case manager to put a document on the screen.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. Today we're going to

15 discuss a few items that were in your statement, the statement that you

16 read. I'm sure that you remember that you read your statement; the

17 Prosecutor asked you if you did.

18 Witness, please. Do you hear me? Do you hear the interpretation?

19 A. I have trouble hearing you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's sitting far from the mic, so perhaps that's

21 a problem.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we please have the

24 witness's statement, 65 ter document 2889, and I would like to have page

25 3, if possible.

Page 1534

1 Q. This document is part of your statement, and the Prosecutor asked

2 you to read it last Friday. Do you remember having read it last Friday?

3 Witness, please, on your screen, do you see the document?

4 A. I see it, but the print is very small. Maybe it's because of my

5 eyesight.

6 Q. Is it better now?

7 A. Yes, yes. It is. It is.

8 Q. So this is your statement, the statement that you gave the very

9 day after the incident.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, for purposes of clarity of the record,

12 Ms. Isailovic has been asking the witness about "the statement the

13 Prosecutor read to you last Friday." That was the witness's statement to

14 a Tribunal investigator. This is a statement to the local authorities in

15 Bosnia, just so that we have clear that the two statements are being a bit

16 mixed up here.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for the clarification.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness --

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me explain what

21 is going on exactly. The Prosecutor introduced --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the record, Mr. Docherty's last intervention

23 has been attributed to me. I may benefit from the mistake, Mr. Docherty,

24 but could that be changed. Yes.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. So let me

Page 1535

1 explain why I'm using this statement. It is part of document 2889 that

2 the Prosecutor presented to the Tribunal through -- with the marking P162.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, while that is being done, my last statement

4 was that Mr. Docherty's last intervention had been attributed to me, but

5 the transcript says "Dragomir Milosevic's last intervention ..." It's

6 Mr. Docherty's last intervention that was mistakenly attributed to me.

7 Please proceed.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, please, maybe the Prosecutor did not ask you to read this

10 part of the statement, but do you remember that on the day after what

11 happened on the tram you were driving, you talked to a policeman, the

12 policeman who was in charge of what had happened to the tram at that

13 time? Do you remember that?

14 A. I remember the date. I remember the date that I read. On that

15 day, I drove a tram between Marindvor and the technical school and the

16 Marshal Tito barracks. I was fired at between the two museums. On the

17 left there were the four sky-scrapers and there was firing.

18 Q. Witness, in your statement to that policeman, you said that the

19 tram was shot at when you were -- and it's a technical word that I'm going

20 to quote. I'm just waiting for the translation, because in French we

21 would say that it's the place where the tram can actually take the curve

22 but is still going straight. This is a section of the tram tracks where

23 you can actually turn, and that's called the curve on the tracks.

24 A. The tram cut across. I headed to the right and then to the left

25 and then towards the technical school.

Page 1536

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. So when the tram is actually on that very

2 spot on the tracks, isn't it noisy? Doesn't the tram make noise at that

3 moment?

4 A. It was before the turn. I was shot at between the two museums,

5 the revolution museum and the other one, and the street that goes from

6 there towards Marindvor. I heard a shot. The passengers were screaming

7 for me to turn and take shelter behind the revolution museum. There were

8 two women who had been wounded. I don't know where they were taken to,

9 whether there was an ambulance that came for them or whether they were

10 taken to the hospital at Kosevo.

11 Q. My question, Witness, was the following: When the tram was on the

12 tracks -- on the place where the tracks switch - you know, "aiguillage" in

13 French - was there a noise at the time? I mean, you've been a tram driver

14 for quite a while. When the tram actually takes that turn and is on the

15 switch -- switching tracks, isn't it noisy?

16 A. I'm not sure I understand you. I was driving between the museums,

17 the old museum and -- the road is there. I was on the road itself and

18 that's where I came under fire. There is the fire sky-scrapers; right?

19 The passengers started crying for help, and then I took shelter behind the

20 museum of the revolution. I realised that the passengers had got off and

21 they'd taken those two injured women away. I don't know where they took

22 them to, whether it was an ambulance that took them away or what. I

23 believe that it was an ambulance, and it was in the Kosevo Hospital.

24 Q. Okay, fine. Fine. But on the day after the incident, you made a

25 statement to the police, and is that the truth? Did you really say what

Page 1537

1 really happened on that statement?

2 A. I just gave them my name from my travel order, the one I had on

3 me, because I was driving the tram. They told me to go and to report the

4 next day to the assembly. The assembly building was at Skenderija, just

5 up from the Sremska Dzakovic Street, which used to be called Oslobodilaca

6 Street.

7 Q. Witness, if I heard you well, the statement you made to the

8 police, you made it in the assembly. Is that it?

9 A. Last name --

10 Q. I'm saying the next day, not the day of incident but the next day.

11 You went to the assembly to make the statement that is now on the screen.

12 Is that true?

13 A. Yes. I made an honourable statement and that's all I know. He

14 said I should be off, I should go home, so I did and that's all I

15 remember.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask my case

17 manager to call up the document 59 on the 65 ter list -- 159.

18 Q. Witness, about one month after this incident where your tram was

19 shot at, a policeman made a report. Please wait for me to finish my

20 sentence before you answer.

21 So there's this report that was made by the police on December 15,

22 1994. In this report, it is said that a bullet went through the open

23 window of your tram; do you remember that?

24 A. I remember that the window was open. I don't know who opened it.

25 It certainly wasn't me. There was firing, and the glass shattered into a

Page 1538

1 thousand pieces. There were several young men behind me and they were

2 certainly the ones to open the window, and then the shot must have come

3 through the open window.

4 Q. Have you heard about the casualties that actually occurred in that

5 tram incident?

6 A. I just made a statement to them. There was a travel order with my

7 name on it. They took my statement. A photographer came; he took

8 photographs of the tram. And they told me to go home, which was at about

9 16 --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Palo, would you listen me, please. What

11 counsel was asking was whether you had heard anything about the people who

12 were injured, the casualties on that tram. Did you hear anything about

13 that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard nothing. I heard people

15 moan and cry for help, but I was in a hurry to take shelter. There were

16 wounded people on the tram and they took them off the tram, and I have no

17 idea where they took them to, whether it was an emergency ward or the

18 Kosevo Hospital.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, please, who told you to continue? As you said, there

21 were wounded, but "Go on, go on," who said that to you?

22 A. I was told to drive on to the depot, to take the tram to Alipasin

23 Most. And then a commission arrived later on, two police officers, a

24 photographer, and another man who took my name, and they told me to go to

25 the assembly building at Skenderija the next day. So I did. I gave a

Page 1539

1 brief statement, and that's about the extent of my knowledge.

2 Q. Witness, my question is: Who told you, "Drive on drive on. There

3 are wounded on board. Drive on." Who said that? Can you please give us

4 a name?

5 A. It was one of the passengers. They told me to take shelter behind

6 the museum of the revolution because we couldn't be fired at there. As

7 for the two injured ladies, they got off and they took them somewhere. I

8 don't know where they took them to.

9 Q. Witness, who told you that the shots came from the sky-scrapers in

10 Grbavica? Who told you that that's where the shots originated from?

11 A. You can see that with the naked eye. There are four sky-scrapers.

12 The distance is 300 metres between the sky-scrapers and the positions, and

13 that's where I came under fire.

14 Q. At that time, Witness, did you think that the only place that the

15 shots could come from were those towers, those high-rises?

16 A. The fire came from the left, but I have no idea where the shots

17 were fired.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, I will move to the statement you gave to

19 the Prosecutor. You also had the opportunity to read this statement.

20 This is 65 ter number 2889, and I'm looking at the second page.

21 Witness, please, you've been a tram driver for quite a while. Is

22 that true?

23 A. Yes, I have been a driver for 25 years.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not get the years that the

25 witness mentioned. We apologise.

Page 1540

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just let the witness repeat that.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So regarding your experience in terms of tram driving, could you

4 repeat when you started driving trams and the date you were finished with

5 that job?

6 A. I started on the 23rd of March, which is when we were called back

7 to our company to drive trams. Between that time and the end of the war,

8 I was driving trams, but it was very difficult. I would drive for five

9 days and then not drive for another five and then drive for five and not

10 drive for ten consecutive days, and I had to report to my company every

11 day.

12 Q. Who asked you to take up tram driving again? You were retired and

13 you were asked to go back on the job. Who asked you to go back on the

14 job?

15 A. The company board. They called us and they told us to drive the

16 trams because there was no one else to do it, and the passengers had to

17 get around, they said. We had to get the work done. It was very

18 difficult. I would go home and go back to work without knowing whether I

19 would actually be safe and still be alive the next day.

20 Q. Witness, please, do you see your statement on the screen?

21 A. I don't have my glasses on. It's difficult. I see some letters

22 there.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please enlarge the print,

24 at least on the B/C/S side. Is it possible?

25 Q. Can you see better now?

Page 1541

1 A. Yes, it's much better now.

2 Q. Around the middle of the page, there's a paragraph that is a bit

3 longer than others. I'm looking at the fourth paragraph. Here it says

4 that your company asked you to go back on the job even though you were

5 retired, asked you to be available to drive trams, and it's also said that

6 you were instructed not to abide by the signals and the traffic code. Is

7 it true?

8 A. That's true. We were at the traffic light. I'm not sure if it

9 was actually working. We passed all the traffic lights and we drove up

10 behind those buildings so they wouldn't see us or fire at us.

11 Q. Witness, do you remember if there were other objects involved in

12 traffic at the time? I mean, this is a wide road that we're talking

13 about.

14 A. There were a few other vehicles. People didn't have the courage

15 to just walk around that area. That was an open area and nobody wanted to

16 go, lest they were fired at.

17 Q. But the tram was running. In your opinion, was it safer for the

18 tram to run than for other vehicles?

19 A. The tram was a very dangerous place. There were passengers there;

20 sometimes 20, sometimes 30, sometimes 50 passengers on a tram. We would

21 pull over at all the stops, all the sheltered stops. And then there was

22 this building behind which we took shelter and then there was the entry to

23 Marindvor. There was the stop at Skenderija. It was a tram line from

24 Bascarsija that pulled over there behind those three sky-scrapers. That

25 was on or way to Marindvor. The Zagreb Hotel was there. That's where the

Page 1542

1 tram stop was. The passengers get on the tram, and we would be off to

2 Marindvor.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Throughout the war, and I think during your

4 entire life, you lived in Bistrik; is that true?

5 A. That's true, yes.

6 Q. On the screen you can read this passage in your statement where

7 you're talking about Bistrik. You are also mentioning the confrontation

8 lines that separate the two warring factions.

9 A. The sky-scrapers, the old sky-scrapers first, and there was just

10 the road between them, and then on the other side there was the

11 sky-scraper of the revolution, a low building. We took shelter behind

12 that one, because they couldn't shoot at us from the sky-scraper while we

13 were there because we were lower down than the top of the sky-scraper.

14 Q. But you're still talking about the incident on the tram. Is that

15 it?

16 A. Can you please repeat the question.

17 Q. I was asking another question. However, I think that the answer

18 you gave us had to do with the incident of November 23rd, 1994, when the

19 tram was shot, because you were talking about the high-rises.

20 A. I don't know. They could have fired at us, but this was the

21 safest place. This was between the museum and then there was that open

22 area between the sky-scraper and --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the other location.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Yes, but now you're saying that -- how was it right after the

Page 1543

1 museum?

2 A. The openest -- Marindvor was the openest. There was Marindvor and

3 Bascarsija, the executive council, and then on the way back, the Zagreb

4 Hotel. It was the best shelter. And you didn't have any other shelters

5 on the way to the museum.

6 Q. At the time did you think that the only place possible to shoot to

7 the tram is from the sky-scrapers? Is that what you were thinking at the

8 time, that it was only from those sky-scrapers that the tram could be shot

9 at?

10 A. He could have fired at us on our way through Marindvor. He could

11 have fired at us from Debelo Brdo, the Jewish cemetery. Those would have

12 been the best places for him to shoot at. We were in the palm of his

13 hand. No shelter whatsoever. The walls were nearly destroyed and there

14 was no shelter whatsoever.

15 Q. Witness, please. Witness, I wanted to ask you a question about

16 Debelo Brdo.

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... question.

18 Q. You mentioned Debelo Brdo yourself.

19 A. The Jewish cemetery, Debelo Brdo, you know where that is. That

20 was the openest route possible. He could have used just an ordinary

21 rifle. It didn't even require a sniper rifle. There was no shelter at

22 all, and that's where I had to take my tram through.

23 Q. So as a long-term resident of Sarajevo, I'm sure you know all

24 those hills. Did you know that at the time the units of the BiH army were

25 holding Debelo Brdo?

Page 1544

1 A. Debelo Brdo, I know that place. I know the Jewish cemetery. I

2 know Debelo Brdo.

3 Q. Witness, please, in your statement, when you say -- could you

4 please look at your statement on the screen, Mr. Witness. On the screen,

5 there is your statement, and you say --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel and witness are overlapping. It is

7 impossible to continue with the interpretation. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. Mr. Palo and

9 Ms. Isailovic, the interpreter complains that you are both overlapping.

10 Mr. Palo, please observe a pause between the question and the

11 answer. Do you understand? Don't speak at the same time as counsel is

12 speaking.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, please, this is one last question and then we'll wrap up.

15 On the screen you have --

16 A. I don't understand your question.

17 Q. Do you see the screen in front of you? On that screen there is

18 your statement and the words --

19 A. I also wish to add, we were ordered not to observe traffic

20 lights. They hardly ever worked, but we were ordered just to go through

21 regardless of what the light was.

22 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not understand the rest

23 of the answer.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Well, a bit further down in your statement, there is one sentence

Page 1545

1 that starts with "Takodje zelim ..."?

2 A. I would add that I live in the area of Bistrik. I don't know

3 about those shells that were falling. I don't remember that. But they

4 were falling. One fell. One fell. I mean, a tank could have stood

5 there, stopped there --

6 Q. You also talk about confrontation lines because you're talking --

7 A. [Previous translation continues] ... were further off in the hill.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in your statement.

9 A. I don't know how to read this now. Should I read the next

10 paragraph or should I go back from the beginning?

11 Q. Now that we found the paragraph, this is my question: You knew --

12 did you know that on Debelo Brdo, the BiH units were stationed? Did you

13 know that?

14 Let me repeat my question: Did you know that on Debelo Brdo,

15 which is a hill that you know well, there were units from the BiH army?

16 And you say that in your statement at the last sentence of that

17 paragraph.

18 A. Our armies were under the hill, at the foot of the hill, and the

19 Serb armies were up on the hills. We were totally surrounded and we had

20 nowhere to go.

21 Q. Are you also saying that for Debelo Brdo?

22 A. Debelo Brdo, Jewish cemetery, all of that was linked up.

23 Q. Do you also know Colina Kapa? It's also a peak on Trebevic.

24 A. I know Colina Kapa. We got wood from there. There were big

25 forests there and we would cut timber wood so that we could get some

Page 1546

1 heating. There was no other way to get heating.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please wait for the witness to

3 finish, notes the interpreter.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, the interpreter asks that you wait

5 until the witness has finished.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

7 Q. So, Witness, do you remember that on that hill, the Colina Kapa

8 hill on Trebevic, there were BiH units that were stationed there? Do you

9 remember that?

10 A. No. Our army was at the foot of the hill, Colina Kapa, underneath

11 Debelo Brdo. I couldn't go up on the hill. That's where the Serb armies

12 were.

13 Q. And when you say in your statement that "our confrontation lines

14 were a bit further higher up on the mountain," which mountain do you mean?

15 A. Debelo Brdo is very well known. I go there every other day by

16 that hill, to the right, to the right of the road where our bus goes, our

17 mini-van, that transports passengers. Then Zlatiste was there, Curine

18 Njive, and then all the way up to Dzidzikovac.

19 Q. In your statement when you say "further up the hill," which hill

20 were you thinking of, please?

21 A. I just know where the hill is. I didn't go up that hill. There's

22 a village up there.

23 Q. This is my last question. Thank you, Witness.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This was my last question.

25 Thank you, Witness.

Page 1547

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, the day the incident

3 occurred, the day the tram was shot at, as far as you know, how many

4 investigations were carried out on that day?

5 A. The 23rd of March is when it started. We were called to the

6 company and we were told that we had to work; that there was no one to

7 drive the trams, that passengers had to be transported, that the army has

8 to be on the lines. And there is nothing more I can say.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. But the day you were

10 shot at, did the authorities come and conduct an investigation to see what

11 had happened to your tram?

12 A. Two policemen came, a man came, and a photographer came. They

13 told me that I was being taken to the so-called garage where trams would

14 be left. And they came and they looked at the number on the travel order

15 and they told me to report to the assembly at Skenderija on the following

16 day.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. And you were asked on

18 the next day, who had shot at the tram, or did nobody ask you that

19 question? Did somebody actually ask you that question?

20 A. I don't know who was shooting, but I just know that it came from

21 the left side, the bullet did, from the sky-scraper -- well, not from the

22 Jewish cemetery. From the sky-scraper. It was nearby; 200 metres away

23 from the sky-scraper to the tram line.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The investigators who put questions

25 to you, did they talk about potential snipers?

Page 1548

1 A. The police did not ask me. No one from the police asked me. They

2 just took my name and surname and told me to report on the following day

3 at Skenderija, at the assembly, at 10.00. I went there. There was a man

4 there and, I don't know, he asked me a bit, not too much, and he told me

5 to go home.

6 After a few months, on the 15th of November, my son was wounded.

7 That's when I was supposed to report at the Minister of the Interior to

8 make a statement. I went there and I said that my son had been wounded

9 and that I couldn't give any statement, and they said, "Okay. We know

10 you. Go home and we'll call you later."

11 A few months went by. I was called again. And there was a woman

12 there and then a man, and there was a girl who was interpreting. And that

13 was it until Nedzarici.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?

15 MR. DOCHERTY: None, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

17 Mr. Huso Palo -- Mr. Palo, I'm addressing you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That constitutes your evidence. We thank you for

20 giving it. You may now leave.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. All the best

22 to you. I told you whatever I knew. I don't know more than that.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before the next witness is brought in, may I just

25 make two announcements.

Page 1549

1 The first is that on Wednesday morning we'll have a hearing on the

2 Prosecution's motion for judicial notice of adjudicated facts. I'm

3 allocating one hour for this hearing; 25 minutes for each party and 10

4 minutes for reply. And the parties are to concentrate on areas of

5 difference between them. That's Wednesday morning, the day after

6 tomorrow. And then I'd like to go into private session. Wednesday

7 morning, it's 9.00

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1550











11 Page 1550 redacted. Private session.















Page 1551

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, the next witness will be called by my

13 colleague, Ms. Edgerton. At this time may I ask to be excused?


15 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness is here, so let him make the

18 declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You may sit.

24 And you may begin, Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, just for your reference before we

Page 1552

1 begin, I should note that this witness will testify as to events that

2 occurred on March 3rd, 1995, referred to in our schedule by the reference

3 number SN-14.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

6 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

7 Q. Good morning, Witness. Could you tell us your name for the

8 record, please.

9 A. Alen Gicevic is my name.

10 Q. And what's your present occupation?

11 A. I work as an economist in a company that is now privately owned.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Now, I wonder if I could ask if we could pull up a

13 series of documents on e-court, the first bearing the PT number 02899.

14 That document exists in two languages. There's an English and a B/C/S

15 version. 2899. Perhaps while we're waiting for that I could ask

16 Mr. Gicevic:

17 Q. Prior to your testifying here today, did you have an opportunity

18 to review two statements given by you to members of the Office of the

19 Prosecutor, the first in 1996 and the second in 2006?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were those statements made available to you in your language

22 as well as the English language?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. EDGERTON: I apologise for this, Your Honour. There seems to

25 be some trouble in locating the material in my colleague's folder.

Page 1553

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, when did you say that the first

2 statement was given, in 1996.

3 MS. EDGERTON: 15 November 1996, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Or 1995? Could you check that?

5 MS. EDGERTON: My mistake, Your Honours. 1995.


7 MS. EDGERTON: I beg your pardon.

8 Again, I'm loathe to proceed, even with the few additional

9 questions I have, without the witness having the opportunity to have his

10 statement in front of him, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, he should have it in front of him.

12 MS. EDGERTON: My colleague, Ms. Bosnjakovic, is re-sending the

13 documents to the court officer.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe we can assist.

15 On our list and in our exhibits we also have that document, so maybe we

16 could assist.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Any way in which you can assist the process

18 would be very much appreciated.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So we'll pull it up.

20 MS. EDGERTON: I see the Serbo-Croatian translation. Can we

21 manage to have the English on the other side, please, because the English

22 is the one that the witness actually signed. Wonderful. Thank you.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Gicevic, did you have an opportunity to review both of

24 these document, the English one and the B/C/S one, prior to your

25 testifying today?

Page 1554

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, with respect to the English one, I take it you recognise your

3 signature on the document.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, do you recall whether this document was read back to you in

6 your own language before you put your signature to it?

7 A. I cannot recall clearly whether it was read out to me in the

8 Bosnian language, this document, when I gave this statement actually in

9 1995.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Now, can we go to the subsequent document which

11 bears the number PT 02900, which is the second statement of this witness.

12 I note my colleagues from the Defence team are assisting again,

13 and I'd like to indicate my thanks.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So would I.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, on the screen in front of you, Mr. Gicevic, you have copies

18 in English and B/C/S of this statement from 21 April 2006. You've had an

19 opportunity to review both of these documents before testifying today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, prior to making this second statement in 2006, did you have

22 an opportunity then to review the translation of the 1996 statement in

23 your own language?

24 A. Yes. Before making my second statement, I was given the statement

25 that I had made ten years before.

Page 1555

1 Q. Now, as a result of that review, did you find inaccuracies in the

2 1996 statement which you then corrected in this statement from last year?

3 A. Yes, I found three or four minor discrepancies and I indicated

4 that to the investigator. That was then changed in the statement I gave

5 last year, or, rather, the year before last.

6 Q. Now, was this statement from 2006 either read back to you or

7 translated in your own language before putting your signature to it?

8 A. When I gave the second statement, I waited for an hour until the

9 investigator compiled a note in the English language, then the translator

10 wrote this in the Bosnian language, and then I had the opportunity to see

11 both before I signed the English statement.

12 Q. Now, then, together, do these two statements constitute an

13 accurate record of what happened to you on March 3rd, 1995, which would be

14 your testimony today?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could we then have those statements,

17 the first from 1996 -- 1995, my apologies again, bearing the number PT

18 02899, and the second one bearing the number PT 02900, marked as exhibits,

19 please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the first statement will be Exhibit

21 P163, and the second, Exhibit P164.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

23 Q. Now, relating to those two statements and the events of March 3rd,

24 perhaps you could answer some additional questions for us, and I'll begin,

25 if I may.

Page 1556

1 First, could you clarify in which direction the tram on which you

2 were riding when you were shot was heading?

3 A. The tram was going from east to west, from the new part of town to

4 the old part of town, the centre.

5 Q. And which side of the tram car were you standing on while you were

6 riding in that direction?

7 A. I was just behind the middle part, next to the third door on the

8 right-hand side.

9 Q. And from where you were standing, could you tell us what you could

10 see? What was your point of view?

11 A. To the right there was Grbavica, the Jewish cemetery, and the

12 southern part of town.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, counsel. Just to clarify the witness's

14 explanation here.

15 Good morning, Mr. Witness. It seems to me that if you were

16 driving towards the old town and you had Grbavica on your right, then you

17 would have been driving from west to east; is that correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because I think your statement was maybe

20 incorrectly translated or confused somehow. But I think you said before

21 that it was from east to west.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was going from the new part of

23 town to the old part of town. As for the cardinal points, it is still my

24 position this is west to east.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

Page 1557


2 Q. Now, perhaps with your hand, could you just touch the location on

3 your body where you were hit and show the Trial Chamber, please.

4 A. [Indicates].

5 MS. EDGERTON: For the record, the witness is standing and

6 indicating with his right hand an area above his right knee.

7 Q. And tell us, Mr. Gicevic, was there an exit wound?

8 A. No. There was only the entry wound.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps now we could move on to a map which bears

10 the number 02872 and display that on the screen, please. Thank you.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Gicevic, do you see this map on the monitor in front of

12 you?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we could have the right-hand side of the

15 map magnified. Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Gicevic, using the tool on the monitor in front of you - it's

17 an electronic marking tool on the right-hand side - could you mark on this

18 map, to the best of your recollection, where the tram was at the time that

19 you were shot.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Now, could you put a small number 1 beside that.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Thank you. Now, still looking at this map, could you mark for our

24 benefit where you think the shots on the tram might have come from.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 1558

1 Q. Now, you've made two lines from the bottom of the page of the map

2 pointing towards what you've marked as number 1, the area the impact; one

3 location you've marked as number 2 and the second location you've marked

4 as number 3. Perhaps I could ask you a couple of questions about the

5 first location, number 2. Could you tell us what sits at that location?

6 A. Location number 2 is a sky-scraper, 12 or 13 floors. It is just

7 next to the Miljacka river.

8 Q. And are you in a position to give us an estimation as to how far

9 location number 2 is from location number 1 on this map?

10 A. Maybe 400 to 500 metres.

11 Q. And are you aware of what sits at the location you've marked as

12 number 3 on the map?

13 A. There's another tall building there, seven or eight floors.

14 Q. And that seven- or eight-storey building, is it known by any name

15 in particular?

16 A. That building goes by the name of Metalka.

17 Q. And could you give us an estimation as to how far the Metalka

18 building, which you say is location number 3, is from location number 1 on

19 the map?

20 A. It's roughly the same distance. Perhaps slightly further away.

21 About 500 metres.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, perhaps if you could mark one more thing for us

23 on this map, if you're familiar with it, could you mark the location of

24 the front line in that area.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 1559

1 Q. And could you mark the location of the front line, then, with the

2 number 4, please.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. With the number 4, I think, because you have already used up 1, 2

5 and 3. Thank you.

6 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if we could have this marked as the next

7 exhibit, please, Your Honours.


9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P164.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask the witness if he had any particular

11 reason for saying that the shots came from the direction that he marked on

12 the map, and whether this was a view that he formed at the time of the

13 incident or subsequent to the incident.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were buildings that were used

15 to fire from before, across the Miljacka river. I can only speculate that

16 that was where the bullet had come from, because those were two locations

17 that were clearly visible from the tram.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] And, Mr. Witness, can I ask you

20 whether your assumption was that the shot came from either one or the

21 other of the two locations which you have indicated, or are you suggesting

22 that there were two shots?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say it was one or two. As

24 far as I remember, there were two or three shots. Where they were fired

25 from is not something that I can possibly know, whether it was from one

Page 1560

1 place, one location, or from several different locations.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Provided that the image on the screen of the marked

4 map is saved as the next exhibit, could we then move on to a further item

5 bearing the number PT 02914. That's a photograph.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that on the

8 document list, documents that are going to be used today, on the list that

9 we received on the 30th of January, 2007, this particular photograph was

10 not included, so unfortunately I was not able to prepare any discussion on

11 that particular photograph. I was unable to do so, more specifically.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, is that so?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Well, it may not have been included on the list,

14 Your Honour. It's my understanding from my colleague Mr. Docherty that

15 the photographs were handed over to Ms. Isailovic. In any case, Your

16 Honours, given that is merely an enlargement, more panoramic view, of a

17 photograph which appears in Your Honours' map books, I'm wondering if,

18 indeed, there is an issue on the part of my friend Ms. Isailovic with

19 respect to the photographs.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, assuming that you're correct, it

21 looks as if you'll have the break, the first break, to do some preparation

22 on that. I'll cause investigations to be made as to what the factual

23 situation is.

24 Yes, please continue.


Page 1561

1 Q. Mr. Gicevic, among other things, does this photograph depict the

2 location at which your tram came under fire on March 3rd, 1995, during

3 which you were injured?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could I ask you to take the marking tool again on the right-hand

6 side of the monitor and mark that location for our benefit with the number

7 1, please.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Now, then, the locations you have identified on the previous map

10 as number 1 and number 2, could you mark those on this photograph with the

11 same numbers. Sorry, 2 and 3, I correct myself.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And finally, to be consistent with the map which you earlier

14 marked, could you indicate the front line as you understood it to be and

15 mark that with the number 4.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MS. EDGERTON: If we could have that marked as the next exhibit,

19 please.


21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P166. And, for

22 the record, I wish to clarify that the previous map that was marked is, in

23 fact, Exhibit is P165 and not P164, as I had indicated. I do apologise

24 for that.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

Page 1562

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, if I understood you well,

2 number 1 is the place where the tram was when you were hit; is that

3 correct?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. My last question is the

6 following: What do the tram tracks look like? Are they in a straight

7 line or are they curved so that the tram can turn into another direction?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just past that place of the

9 incident that the tracks turn from the left side of the street to the

10 right side of the street. Rather, there is this area running down the

11 middle of the street and the tracks at one point move onto the right side

12 of the street.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Would it assist Your Honours if the witness was

14 able to indicate this on this latest exhibit?

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

17 [Interpretation] That would be the direction the tram was moving,

18 or, rather, the tracks.


20 Q. Could we have that marked with the number 5, please.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Noting for the record that the line on this

22 photograph marked number 5 indicates the curve in the tram tracks,

23 approximately, which Judge Mindua was inquiring about.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P167.

Page 1563

1 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Gicevic, earlier on in your testimony, referring to

5 locations number 2 and 3 on this photograph - and, for the record, I note

6 that was on page 28, approximately line 19 - you indicated there used to

7 be dangers, sniper fire from these two locations.

8 Now, perhaps I could ask you this: During the course of the war,

9 in particular 1994 and 1995, did you have occasion to travel along the

10 same route in front of these two locations?

11 A. Yes, I passed there on several occasions.

12 Q. Now, passing there, perhaps you're in a position to tell us about

13 any measures you might have observed at those locations in order to

14 protect the population, or along that route, in order to protect the

15 population from those locations?

16 A. This route as well as the route running parallel to this one

17 behind the buildings had huge transport containers placed at some places

18 that were deemed to be risky, as well as old lorries filled with sand.

19 There were UNPROFOR soldiers at these risky places using their APCs to

20 protect Sarajevo's population from the snipers.

21 Q. Now, perhaps I can just go back to what you were saying about the

22 route parallel to this one. Would you be in a position to mark that on

23 this photograph with the number 6 perhaps.

24 A. [Marks].

25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. And even though we're on a new exhibit, I'll

Page 1564

1 keep the consecutive numbering.

2 Q. Now, you've also mentioned containers or lorries, transport

3 containers or old lorries filled with sand. Were these scattered along

4 these locations or were they laid in some kind of pattern, end on end?

5 Were they grouped at all?

6 A. They were across to the south, down the road, and I can mark that

7 for you, our position at the time. This is how it was, roughly speaking.

8 They were placed across, two or three long and three or four deep, along

9 the tracks.

10 Q. Now, could you please put the number 7 at the location which

11 you've marked.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And were these containers on the north side of the road or the

14 south side of the road; do you remember?

15 A. Looking from here, they were in front. The road was -- so the

16 containers were a form of physical protection for the citizens' vehicles

17 and trams moving about.

18 Q. Were there any other locations as depicted or in this photograph

19 where you recall containers being placed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall the names of these two streets at this intersection

22 that you've just indicated with the number 8?

23 A. This is the so-called "Route of Life" and the junction was called

24 "at the railway station."

25 Q. And the big white expanse in this photograph where you have

Page 1565

1 written the number 8, what stood at that location at the time?

2 A. That was the old barracks, the old JNA barracks. That's where

3 UNPROFOR was stationed in the war and just after the war.

4 Q. Now, could you tell us what intersection we find at number 9.

5 A. Number 9, yes, there's a junction there; St. Mary's church and the

6 "Route of Life" or the "Salvation Route." But there were many junctions

7 there and it would take a lot of different numbers for me to mark them

8 all.

9 Q. Do you remember speaking about the UNPROFOR APCs you mentioned?

10 Do you remember locations that you may be able to indicate on this

11 photograph, locations where they were generally constantly placed?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Indicated on the photograph as numbers 10, 11 and

14 12, Your Honours.

15 If we could have that marked as the next exhibit.


17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P168, Your Honours.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I note the time, but I also note I

19 have perhaps five minutes of questions for this witness. I'm in your

20 hands as to when you would like to ...

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Gicevic, do you have any recollection of having observed

24 or heard any fighting or military activity going on in the surrounding

25 area on the day you were shot?

Page 1566

1 A. As far as I remember, there were two or three peaceful days. I am

2 certain that no firing was to be heard on that particular morning.

3 Q. Were you on any kind of military service at the time of this

4 incident?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, was this the only time you were injured during the course of

7 the war?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And could you tell us when this other occasion was? When were you

10 otherwise injured?

11 A. I was injured again on the 22nd of April, 1992.

12 Q. What caused the injury then?

13 A. The injury occurred at about 8.00 p.m. near my house, the house in

14 which I was living with my parents at the time.

15 Q. And perhaps I can repeat the question: How was the injury caused?

16 A. I was injured by a shell. I received injuries to my leg and to my

17 stomach. It was a mortar shell.

18 Q. To your recollection, was that the only shell that fell around the

19 time you were injured on this first occasion?

20 A. No. There were several shells. As far as I remember, in those

21 moments there were three shells that landed.

22 Q. And you note this happened near your house. Could you tell us

23 where your house was at this time?

24 A. Dzidzikovac Street, at Mejtas.

25 Q. And what area of the town of Sarajevo was that?

Page 1567

1 A. This is Sarajevo's centre. That is now a residential area.

2 MS. EDGERTON: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 You're a very fortunate man, and we are glad that you are here.

5 We'll take the break now.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, you're still on your feet.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Only briefly, Your Honour.

10 With respect to the issue of notice of the photograph, Your

11 Honour, I have made some investigations and I want to put my apologies on

12 the record. I certainly had no intention of misleading anyone. The

13 photograph, 2914, that my friend had said was not on the list, indeed, was

14 not on the list and doesn't seem to have been passed to her previously.

15 There was miscommunication, or perhaps too many communications over too

16 many photographs, and there was -- while I understood she had received,

17 she hadn't received it. We've discussed the photograph, I've passed her

18 hard copies of the photograph, and I feel I should, with respect to this

19 photograph, put on the record that this is a still drawn from a DVD of

20 panoramic photographs of Sarajevo which sits on our list at PT 2716. And

21 the photographs in Your Honours' map book, numbers -- sorry, I have to put

22 my glasses on to read the numbers. The aerial photographs in Your

23 Honours' map books, aerial number 2 and number 3, are in fact all drawn

24 from the same DVD.

25 But, nevertheless, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Page 1568

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. If Ms. Isailovic has

2 been in any way embarrassed by that, she is to let the Chamber know we'll

3 find a way to deal with it, perhaps by allowing her a little more time to

4 cross-examine. But I note that she did have the break.

5 But that's a matter you should bring to our attention,

6 Ms. Isailovic.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. So that

8 is an issue we have settled now. It wasn't necessary to apologise in such

9 a manner.

10 During the break, I looked at the photograph again, and I shall

11 begin my cross-examination with this photograph. I believe it is on the

12 screen already. Is that right? Does everybody have this photograph on

13 their screen? I have it on my screen, any way.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Mrs.

16 Isailovic. I'm a member of the Paris Bar Association, and I defend

17 Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, charged before this Chamber.

18 I shall now begin my cross-examination, as is customary here, and

19 I shall ask you a few questions that pertain to your statements which we

20 mentioned earlier this morning and a few additional questions which have

21 to do with what you know about the situation in Sarajevo during the period

22 for which the accused is charged in the indictment.

23 I would like you to look at the photograph once more. This

24 photograph is on our screens now. With the pen, could you show us where

25 the confrontation or separation line was between the two warring factions.

Page 1569

1 That is what it was called, anyway.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. Witness, is it fair to say that the confrontation line includes

4 the units of both warring factions on both sides of this line?

5 A. I did not understand the question.

6 Q. I shall repeat my question. This line, this line you've just

7 drawn which we have called the separation line between the two warring

8 factions, according to you, does that line separate the two war factions;

9 one faction on one side of the line and the other on the other side of the

10 line?

11 A. That was the separation line. But where the armies actually were,

12 I really don't know.

13 Q. Nonetheless, you knew that the soldiers of the Republika Srpska

14 were positioned in the towers and the high-rise buildings which you

15 indicated to the Trial Chamber today, and they were also positioned in the

16 Metalka building, weren't they?

17 A. I just said that the bullet could have come from the Metalka

18 building. But whether the army was on top of the building, I really

19 cannot say.

20 Q. If that's what you say, would you also say between this line and

21 the tracks of the tramway in which you found yourself on the 23rd of

22 March, could there have been units of the ABiH in that short or small

23 space?

24 A. Not likely.

25 Q. Are you quite sure, or is it just something you have heard about?

Page 1570

1 A. Since this is a big expanse, empty space, it is logical that there

2 should be no military facilities there or military forces.

3 Q. Witness, you are talking about an open space, an open square, but

4 I see here two buildings that are located between this line and the tram

5 tracks which we saw a while ago. I stand to be corrected, of course.

6 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the country museum is. Yes,

7 there are two buildings there, the museum and the faculty of philosophy,

8 in a relatively large area.

9 Q. Witness, you have shown us a lot of things on this photograph, and

10 this is a clear indication that you know this area pretty well. Even if

11 you were 34 years old at the time, you were not an ABiH soldier at the

12 time, were you? Did I understand you right?

13 A. At that moment, no.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, before you continue, just let me

15 take the witness, very briefly, back to his evidence that, "as there was a

16 big expanse, empty space, it is logical that there should be no military

17 facilities there or military forces." Just to be clear, why do you say

18 that it is logical that there be would no military facilities in a big

19 expanse and empty space?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there were two police

21 stations on the left-hand side and on the right-hand side in the immediate

22 vicinity.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: But are you now agreeing that there were, in

24 fact, two buildings there, the museum and the faculty of philosophy?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 1571

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, a few moments ago you said to us that you were not a

5 soldier at that time. Could you just expand on this a little bit, please.

6 A. No. I was demobilised nine months before that, in July 1994.

7 Q. In your second statement, in your statement which bears the number

8 2900 on the 65 ter list, number P164.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like this to be displayed on

10 the screen, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we're waiting for it. Is there a problem?

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, the photo that was just marked is

15 not in evidence. Do you want to have it admitted?

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just telling

17 the usher that I did not wish to tender this photograph. It was just

18 because I wanted to discuss it with the witness.

19 I would like my case manager to turn to the third page now,

20 please, paragraph 10.

21 Q. Witness, do you see this on your screen? Can you see your

22 statement on the screen which is before you? And in paragraph 10 you

23 mention the fact that you were involved in the Bosnian army. What

24 interests me is this: You worked as a driver when you were requisitioned

25 by the army. Did this occur after your demobilisation or not?

Page 1572

1 A. Yes, nine months after my demobilisation.

2 Q. Was that perhaps the time when you had your accident, on the 3rd

3 of March, 1995?

4 A. No. I was demobilised on the 20th of July, 1994, that is to say,

5 nine months earlier on.

6 Q. But when did you actually work as a driver and when were you

7 requisitioned by the ABiH army? When was that?

8 A. No, the army did not call me up. I myself showed up in August

9 1992.

10 Q. Did I understand you correctly? You were saying that after your

11 demobilisation in July 1995 you were not part of the ABiH army; is that

12 right? Is that what you are trying to say?

13 A. I really don't know what you mean. You keep talking about

14 mobilisation or demobilisation in 1995. I was a member of the army from

15 1992 to 1994. In 1995, when I was wounded, I was a civilian.

16 Q. Witness, in your statement, in paragraph 10, I want to make sure

17 that everything is quite clear. You say that until the summer of 1994 you

18 worked in the army and you were a medical assistant. And then the second

19 sentence in the paragraph numbered 10 reads as follows: "I also worked in

20 the army as a driver when I was required to do so."

21 This is a very simple question: After the summer of 1994, were

22 you asked to act as a driver by the ABiH army?

23 A. No. From 1992 until 1994, first I worked as a male nurse and then

24 as a driver. On the 20th of July, 1994, I severed all links to the army.

25 Q. Thank you. Things are much clearer now.

Page 1573

1 I should now like to get back to what happened on the 3rd of

2 March, 1995. I would like to say that we heard in this courtroom the tram

3 driver who came to testify, and the tram driver explained to us what

4 happened during the incident. This is in the transcript on page number

5 867, the 23rd of January, 2007.

6 The woman who was the driver of this tram talked to us about the

7 time when the accident occurred, and she told us that it was when the tram

8 reached the second turn. You did answer the question put by the

9 Prosecutor. There are two turnings, two curves, one which turns to the

10 right and the other which turns to the left. And the driver explained

11 that the first part of the tram crossed or went past the second curve and

12 that is when the accident occurred. Do you agree with this? Do you know

13 anything about this? Do you know when the tram was hit?

14 A. When the tram track goes from one side of the street to the other

15 side of the street, it's only 5 or 6 metres, and it takes the tram only a

16 second to cross that street, from one side to the other. So I really

17 don't know at what moment that was. When the shooting started, we all

18 fell, on the one hand because the tram swerved and on the other hand

19 because bullets started flying.

20 Q. Witness, in your statement, you mentioned two or three bullets.

21 Are you quite sure?

22 A. I cannot be 100 per cent sure because it was all very nearby, so I

23 could not tell what the actual firing was, what the actual bullet was, so

24 that's why I said rather imprecisely two to three.

25 Q. Could there have been only one bullet that hit the tram?

Page 1574

1 A. I'm not sure of that.

2 Q. Nonetheless, Witness, after what happened, the Bosnian police

3 conducted an investigation, and someone contacted you also. Do you recall

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Before discussing this police investigation, I would like to turn

7 to the second page of the document we have in front of us.

8 In the third paragraph of this statement, you corrected a few

9 mistakes that were in there. I'm talking about your first statement which

10 you gave on the 15th of November, 1995.

11 The second statement we have is the statement which was given

12 nearly 11 years after the fact. So you corrected your 1995 statement, and

13 you explained how it was that you went to hospital. This is in paragraph

14 3; do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it fair to say that at the time you were wounded, you left the

17 tram of your own accord. You didn't address yourself to the tram driver

18 and you didn't address yourself to the policeman who was there; is that

19 right?

20 A. I did not address anyone because there was panic all over. When a

21 bullet hits you, you do not go to the tram driver; you go to the hospital.

22 Q. But I believe that you were very seriously injured, weren't you?

23 A. Much less serious than the first wound, so I was calm and

24 composed.

25 Q. Witness, could you then tell me how the police discovered that you

Page 1575

1 were a passenger on the tram on the day that the tram was hit?

2 A. I don't understand at all who it was that I was making statements

3 to. I made a statement much later, not at the moment when I was wounded.

4 Q. Witness, that is precisely why I'm putting this question to you.

5 Let's assume that all this happened. You leave that spot without

6 addressing yourself to anyone, and after that, people understand that you

7 were a passenger on that tram. Could you tell me what happened? And how

8 did you contact the police? Admittedly, the police did cross-question you

9 but that was somewhat later.

10 A. When I arrived hospital, the State Hospital, there were always

11 representatives of the media there, and as I was entering the hospital in

12 order to be treated, there were TV crews there and radio crews and they

13 asked me what it was that happened and I said that I was hit in a tram.

14 That is probably where it all started from. I did not look for anyone to

15 make a statement to, and it was only later that this happened with the

16 police.

17 Q. I would just like to check something. You were greeted by the

18 media when you are reached the hospital; is that right?

19 A. I was not greeted by the media. At Kosevo and at the State

20 Hospital there was always someone, because somebody was injured every day,

21 so that is where they gathered information about casualties, about the

22 dead and wounded.

23 Q. Were the media already aware of what had happened or did you pass

24 on the information?

25 A. From the hospital I couldn't have known who it was who had brought

Page 1576

1 that information, but I know, at any rate, that it was on the TV news that

2 evening, immediately, that a tram had been hit by a sniper.

3 Q. That same evening, did they say that it was the Chetniks who had

4 shot at the tram?

5 A. From the hospital I could not have known that.

6 Q. But it's you who said it. You said that same evening this piece

7 of news had circulated and people were talking about the fact that the

8 tram had been hit. Did the media say anything about who had done this and

9 who had fired the shots?

10 A. I am just telling you that I was told by people who came to visit

11 me in the hospital that I was on TV again, and it was even the subject of

12 jokes among us.

13 Q. Witness, but you must have realised that you were being filmed

14 when you were admitted into hospital, when you came along with your

15 girlfriend who was your girlfriend at the time?

16 A. I really don't know whether I was being filmed. At the moment

17 when a person is wounded and is fighting for his life, he doesn't look

18 around, seeing whether somebody is filming him and what kind of statement

19 he should make.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. We shall now spend a little bit more time on

21 the police investigation.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my case manager to

23 bring up on the screen document number 739, which is a Defence exhibit,

24 which has Exhibit number D23.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

Page 1577

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, the line of questioning which is

3 not new - it's a line of questioning which you have followed - I just want

4 to ensure that I understand your case. Your case is that, true enough,

5 injuries were suffered by these people, but there is some doubt as to who

6 fired the shots. The burden is on the Prosecution to prove beyond a

7 reasonable doubt that the shots came from the Serb side, and your line of

8 questioning is directed at showing that there is some doubt as to where

9 the shots came from.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this particular

11 example, there's another reason, but we'll come to it very rapidly. It

12 will be demonstrated and you will understand very clearly where I am

13 aiming at. I'm trying to introduce my own evidence so that all relative

14 items can be discussed.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, is there a translation into English of this

17 latest document available that we can see?

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I personally did not

19 find the translation. Maybe the Prosecution has it. This document is

20 included on the evidence list of the Prosecution. But it's only one

21 sentence I want to highlight in this document, which was already used

22 during the cross-examination of the lady who was driving the tram on that

23 particular day.

24 We would like it's interpreters' assistance in this matter. It

25 starts with "On the 3rd of March ..." I would like them to translate that

Page 1578

1 particular sentence which is on the screen. The witness will be able to

2 follow on the screen.

3 THE INTERPRETER: "On the 3rd of March, 1995, at about 1210 hours,

4 at the junction of Franjevacka Street and Marshal Tito Street, a single

5 bullet came from a southerly direction, the neighbourhood of Grbavica, and

6 hit tram garage number 268, moving towards Bascarsija. The tram was hit

7 in the other part of the car between the accordion, the joint, and the

8 third door, looking from the driver's direction. On that occasion, three

9 persons were injured in the tram, two seriously and one slightly. The

10 tram was being driven by driver Slavica Livnjak."

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The driver of this tram testified before this Chamber. We already

13 discussed that document on that occasion. As you can see, Witness, the

14 police officers who examined this particular location realised that there

15 was only one single bullet. Well, there may have been several shots, but

16 only one bullet hits the tram. Can you see that? And, according to you,

17 is that a true account of what happened?

18 A. I stand by my previous statements. There were two or three

19 bullets.

20 Q. In order to be even more accurate, those two to three shots that

21 you heard, did you actually hear them or did you notice two to three

22 bullet holes in the tram, when you left the tram with your girlfriend?

23 A. I didn't see it. I heard it and I felt it. I didn't look at the

24 tram once I got off the tram. I just hurried over to the hospital.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, could you please clarify, just to be

Page 1579

1 sure, the name of the tram driver? Because I'm a bit confused from the

2 name I see here and the name that I compare with your earlier Exhibit

3 D23. I think I had another name there.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Judge Harhoff. I believe

5 there is a mistake here. Her name is Livnjak, Slavica. And in the whole

6 document which follows, her name is Slavica Livnjak. So there may have

7 been a mistake here. There's also another family name, "Polivnjak," so

8 maybe there was some confusion between those two names.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have also the name of Livnjak. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you show us the signature to that statement,

11 the one that is on the screen.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's move to page 9 of that very

13 same document. Now you can see the signature of a person named Korto

14 Sasa. He was the technician in the Bosnian police.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] On the second page, this

17 technician has taken note of the location where the tram was hit.

18 Q. Witness, it is very likely that you heard several shots. However,

19 according to the technician, only one bullet hit the tram on that

20 particular occasion.

21 A. I was there, and I think I'm better able to say how many sounds I

22 heard.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: But how many persons on the tram were, in fact,

24 injured as a result of the shooting?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really don't know.

Page 1580

1 There was a lot of panic. Everybody fell down on the floor. And I think

2 there was another gentleman, but this is a very hazy memory, who was

3 injured, but I didn't know at the time. There was a lot of panic. The

4 tram reached an old building which offered relative shelter to us, and

5 then everybody ran away.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: This other gentleman, was he sitting close to you

7 or standing close to you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My recollection is very hazy. I

9 think he was seated to my right, between the third door and the joint of

10 the tram, the middle of the tram, but I'm not certain.


12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. A moment ago you said that this bullet ended its course in your

14 knee and that it had to be removed from your knee. Is that true?

15 A. Just the bullet casing, not the entire bullet. It's a part of the

16 bullet. It wasn't the entire bullet.

17 Q. In any case, this fragment was removed from your knee, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes, seven days after the incident.

19 Q. Why did it take seven days after the incident?

20 A. They tried to do it immediately after I had arrived at the State

21 Hospital by local anaesthesia, but then they had to anaesthetise me

22 entirely in order to be able to extract the bullet, so this eventually

23 done seven days later.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, this statement that we're looking

25 at by the technician, what's his name? The name of the technician.

Page 1581

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Korto Sasa.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is he going to be called as a witness by either

3 the Prosecution or by your side?

4 MS. EDGERTON: A man by that name doesn't appear on the

5 Prosecution list at present.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I notice you say "at present."

7 Ms. Isailovic.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, for the time being, it's not

9 on the witness list of the Prosecution. As far as we're concerned, we'll

10 see. For the time being we don't know.

11 I would like to continue reviewing that same document. On page 24

12 of that document, it says it is an Official Note from the Bosnian police

13 established on the 8th of March, 1995, and signed by Milan Davidovic. He

14 speaks here of another victim on that tram. This person will come and

15 testify before the Chamber. He was supposed to testify last week, but I'm

16 sure he will come here very quickly.

17 Q. I would like to refer you to the last page of that Official

18 Note: "He had a wound in his stomach. Surgery was performed to extract

19 the bullet." This gentleman was also a passenger on that tram. He stayed

20 on location after the accident took place. He was then brought to

21 hospital, and this bullet which hit the tram was extracted from his body.

22 Witness, are you still certain that you were wounded on that

23 tram?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 1582

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I ask the witness just a question of

3 clarification. You said that it was a fragment that was extracted from

4 your knee, and my question is: Does this contain any information about

5 the projectile that hit you? Was it a sniper gun of the calibre that we

6 have heard about, 7.62 millimetres, or was it a fragmentary bullet that

7 exploded somewhere in the tram and a part of this fragment hit your knee?

8 Have you any information about the nature of the ammunition that was used

9 when you were hit?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really have no information about

11 that. I was just told that the casing remained lodged inside my knee and

12 that's what was extracted, which is only a part of the bullet.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, any re-examination?

15 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Gicevic, that concludes your testimony. We

17 thank you for giving it and you may now leave.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, next witness.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Dervisa

23 Selmanovic.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we have a witness?

Page 1583

1 Just to let the record show that the usher told us that the

2 witness room was empty and he has returned to check to see whether the

3 witness is there now.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Since we are now, is it, the fourth week, I think

6 I'm going to ask the court deputy to give us a breakdown of the time spent

7 so far in examination-in-chief, in cross-examination, and by the Chamber

8 in asking questions. Not now. I'm not expecting you to give it to me

9 now.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Certainly, Your Honour.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Could the Court please read that to the witness.


15 Would you read that, Mr. Usher, to the witness, and the witness

16 will just repeat what the usher reads.

17 THE USHER: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask you to repeat after me.

22 I solemnly declare.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That I will speak the truth.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

Page 1584

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The whole truth.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And nothing but the truth.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Mr. Docherty.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Mr. President and Your Honours, this witness will be testifying

10 pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and as I think we've all gotten used to by now,

11 that will be supplemented with what I will take the liberty of describing

12 as the usual aerial photographs and video clips.

13 This witness, Your Honours, will be giving evidence concerning

14 scheduled sniping incident number 10 to the amended indictment.

15 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

16 Q. Good morning. Could you please tell us your name and date of

17 birth.

18 A. Good morning. Dervisa Selmanovic. I was born in 1945.

19 Q. Now, on the 27th of February, 1996, did you make a statement to an

20 investigator from this Tribunal?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And since you came to The Hague a few days ago to testify, have

23 you had the opportunity to have that statement read out loud to you?

24 A. Yes, it was read out to me.

25 Q. In what language was it read?

Page 1585

1 A. It was read back to me in Bosnian.

2 Q. And did you understand everything that you heard?

3 A. Yes. But one forgets, you know? Yes, I understood everything

4 that was read back to me.

5 Q. All right. Now, I understand that there is a question concerning

6 which side of you was towards the hill called Sharpstone; is that

7 correct? There's an issue about that.

8 A. The left side.

9 Q. Was what was read out to you a few days ago true and correct, as

10 far as you are concerned?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I move for the admission of the

13 statement of 27 February 1996. The ter number is 2878.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P169.


17 Q. Later on, on the 20th of April, 2006, did you give another

18 statement to a different investigator from this Tribunal.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And since you arrived in The Hague, has that statement been read

21 out to you?

22 A. The statement was read out, yes.

23 Q. In which language?

24 A. In Bosnian, I think, but I can't quite remember. But I think that

25 it was.

Page 1586

1 Q. Well, do you understand -- speak or understand any language

2 besides Bosnian?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. And when this statement was read out to you, did you understand

5 what was being read?

6 A. Yes, yes, I understood.

7 Q. Was that statement true and correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I move the admission under Rule 92

10 ter of the statement of 20 April 2006. The ter number is 2879.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P170.


14 Q. Ms. Selmanovic, on the day that you were shot, can you tell Their

15 Honours what the weather was like?

16 A. It wasn't raining but I think it was overcast, you know. It was

17 morning time and it was difficult to see exactly what was going on. I'm

18 certain there were no precipitations.

19 Q. All right. Were there any soldiers in the area at the time that

20 you were shot?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was there any combat, that is to say, fighting between armies,

23 going on at the time that you were shot?

24 A. No, I heard nothing.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Now, I'm going to ask the case manager to play a

Page 1587

1 360-degree -- excuse me. One moment, Your Honour.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Sorry for that, Your Honours.

4 Q. We're going to play a 360-degree view that we believe is from the

5 area where you were shot, and that will be coming up in just a moment on

6 the screen.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but just

8 for the transcript, because I note there are two mistakes on the

9 transcript; first, the 65 ter number, the exhibit number of the witness's

10 statement is 169 and not 162, as written in the transcript. And on the 65

11 ter list, the number 2879. I think that was not what was written.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is what is on the transcript, isn't it?

13 2879 is on the transcript. But we thank you for the first correction.


15 Q. Ms. Selmanovic, we're going to start with this aerial photograph.

16 Do you see a red circle on that photograph?

17 A. Yes, yes, I see one. I see one over there, yes.

18 Q. What does that red circle mark? What happened where that red

19 circle is?

20 A. That's where it happened --

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this

22 question is quite leading. The circle is already there. That is already

23 a bit too much. But then asking the question in such a way does not give

24 a lot of leeway to the witness. It's a bit leading.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, once you agree that the circle is there, it

Page 1588

1 seems to me that the witness can be asked what the circle means, if it

2 means anything.

3 Does the circle mean anything to her, maybe you can ask that; and

4 if so, what does it mean.


6 Q. Ms. Selmanovic, does that circle, the location marked by that

7 circle, mean anything to you? And if your answer is yes, can you tell us,

8 please, what it means?

9 A. What this circle means to me is the place where I was wounded. It

10 was inside that circle.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Docherty.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, Ms. Isailovic does have a point

14 about the circle that is already there. You should elicit evidence from

15 the witness as to where she was wounded, and then, if you wish, you can

16 ask her to mark that location with a circle or an X. But it is overly

17 suggestive to have this circle already there. So, in future, you are not

18 to do that.


20 Q. Are you familiar with the scene that is on the monitor in front of

21 you?

22 A. Yes, I know that.

23 Q. And can you tell us, whereabouts is your house on this photograph?

24 A. The house could be somewhere around here. Here, in front of this

25 little circle, that's where it would be.

Page 1589

1 Q. And do you have - if you know - an opinion about where the

2 photographer was when this photograph was taken?

3 A. I think that he was standing above this here, sort of opposite the

4 house. I can see the garage ...

5 Q. Well, I understand that he was standing above, but I guess what I

6 was trying to ask is, are there any -- is there -- are there any names for

7 areas where your house is? Could you tell us -- if it has a name, could

8 you tell us a name for where the photographer was standing?

9 A. Sedrenik. The place is called Sedrenik.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Now I'm going to ask -- I'm going to ask the case

11 manager to slowly --

12 JUDGE MINDUA: Please, Mr. Prosecutor. The witness has indicated

13 the location of her house, but it's not possible to see on the map. Could

14 you ask her to point out where the house is so that we can know.


16 Q. Ms. Selmanovic, following up on Judge Mindua's question, using the

17 red circle as a reference point, can you tell us where your house is? And

18 just use words like "above," "to the left," "to the right," and so on.

19 And bear in mind, please, that when you point to the monitor, we can't see

20 where you are pointing.

21 A. On the right-hand side, perhaps about 50 metres from there, or

22 30-ish, where the little circle is above that house that is high up.

23 Q. Now, immediately to the left of the little circle there is a

24 house. Do you see it?

25 A. Yes, I see it. That's that house. I was there between that house

Page 1590

1 and the garage.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Judge Mindua, is that what you were looking for or

3 are we not there yet?

4 JUDGE MINDUA: Yes, it's okay. Thank you.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 And now, if I could, could the case manager please commence the

7 360-degree.

8 Q. Ms. Selmanovic, what I'm going to ask you to do is, we're going to

9 rotate this rather slowly, and when the camera -- when you see the camera

10 pointing to the place where you think the shots came from, tell us and

11 we'll stop the rotation and I'll have a few questions for you. Do you

12 understand?

13 A. All right.

14 Here.

15 Q. Now, we see a house in the picture; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Now, can I say something?

17 Q. Of course.

18 A. I was here, where this little road is and then down to this wire

19 fence. That's where I was when there was shooting from the left. The

20 shooting came from the left. It started shooting and, you know, I wanted

21 to seek shelter and then I went to the concrete garage. I was running to

22 seek shelter there when the bullet hit my right knee, the inner side of my

23 leg, you know. That's the way it was. I felt this blow, a terrible blow.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could continue the rotation. And stop,

Page 1591

1 please.

2 Q. Now, do you recall, Ms. Selmanovic, sometime last summer making a

3 video with --

4 A. I remember. Yes, yes, I remember.

5 Q. Let me just finish the question so that the record is clear,

6 please. With an investigator from this Tribunal.

7 A. I remember.

8 Q. And have you had a chance to review that videotape in the last few

9 days before coming to court.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if we --

12 [Noise from outside the courtroom]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see our friend is back, the nuisance. That's

14 the buzzing sound, the drilling sound, but I expect the deputy registrar

15 will see to it that it is stopped.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Ms. Case Manager, could we at this time play

17 the video.

18 Q. Ms. Selmanovic, I'll just ask you to watch this, and when it's

19 done I'll have some questions about it.

20 A. All right.

21 [Videotape played]

22 "INVESTIGATOR: My name is Barry Hogan. I'm an investigator with

23 the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. This video

24 is for sniping incident number 10 of 10 December 1994.

25 "I have taken the grid reference position from this location using

Page 1592

1 a Garmin eTrex GPS unit, and the grid reference is north 43 degrees, 52

2 minutes, 18.9 seconds, by east 18 degrees, 26 minutes, 29.5 seconds.

3 "Also in attendance are Zoran Lesic and Igor Lesic, the

4 videographers. The interpreter is Enida from the Sarajevo field office.

5 And with me, beside me, is witness number 119.

6 "Witness, at this point I would like you to please point to the

7 location on your body where the bullet hit you on the 10th of December,

8 1994.

9 "Thank you. Can you please assume the position where -- how you

10 were positioned on that day.

11 "Thank you. And finally, can you please point to the location,

12 rather, the direction from which you believe the shot came from that

13 wounded you on that day.

14 "Thank you."


16 Q. Now, Ms. Selmanovic, on the video we just saw --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- you pointed to your right when you were asked where the bullets

19 came from. Is that what you saw on the video?

20 A. Yes, I saw that. I guess I got confused or something. I really

21 don't know how I did this. I got confused, I guess, and I used my right

22 hand to show it.

23 Q. And you understand, of course, that in your statement you said

24 left side and in the video you said right side; is that correct?

25 A. It is correct that it was the left side, that I was wounded on the

Page 1593

1 left side. As for the right side, that's a mistake I made, because I said

2 the right.

3 Q. And also you indicate on the video the bullet entering your knee

4 on the outside and in your statement you said it entered your knee on the

5 inside. Are you aware of that discrepancy also?

6 A. I know that I started walking and that it was this inner side --

7 well, you know, I guess people do get confused. But what is correct is

8 that when I set out with my right foot it hit me.

9 Q. Okay. Now, in your statement that you gave back in 1996, you

10 stated that the bullet that hit you came, in your opinion, from a hill or

11 a part of a hill called Sharpstone. Do you remember saying that in 1996?

12 A. Correct. Correct. I remember that exactly.

13 Q. All right.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: And if I could have one moment, Your Honour.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]


17 Q. The last thing we're going to do, Ms. Selmanovic, is we're going

18 to do that 360-degree rotation again, and this time I'm going to ask you

19 to stop us when you see Sharpstone, if you see it. Just tell us to stop,

20 and if you see it and stop us, I will have some questions about where it

21 is and things like that. Are you ready to start?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Ms. Case Manager, could you please start

24 rotating the image.

25 A. Here.

Page 1594

1 Q. All right.

2 A. Grdonj is this hill and right by Grdonj, 200 or 300 metres is

3 Spicasta Stijena. That's the place.

4 Q. Now, you are giving the name of a hill and saying that Sharpstone

5 is 200 metres from it. We are not from the area and don't know what hill

6 you are using as a reference point. There are some houses in this

7 picture. Could you use them to tell us where Sharpstone is.

8 A. The forest that goes from here to there, I'm telling you. But

9 right behind this bush I cannot see Spicasta Stijena, but it's got to be

10 there. If you can take the picture back a bit.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: Ms. Case Manager, could you please rotate a little

12 bit back.

13 Q. Is that far enough?

14 A. Right. Spicasta Stijena comes from there, right. That's right.

15 Right there. It's a hill, it's rocks, it's -- it can't be anywhere else.

16 I know it's there. I lived there.

17 Q. Let's try it this way: How do you recognise it? Describe to us

18 what it is that you see and makes you say, Oh, that's Sharpstone.

19 A. Well, let me tell you, it's a hill and these rocks that go high

20 up, very big. It goes high up and then these little -- pine trees.

21 Q. And then my last question is: As you sit here today, do you have

22 an opinion about where the person who shot you on the 10th of December,

23 1994 was when he shot you?

24 A. It must have been at Spicaste Stijena.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And why does she say that?

Page 1595

1 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm just going to get to that, Your Honour.

2 Q. Before I ask the question Judge Robinson asked, this was on the

3 10th of December. On the 10th of December, what are the leaves like on

4 the trees?

5 A. Somewhere there are green ones. Are you talking about October?

6 Sometimes greener, sometimes yellow. Somewhere they fell off.

7 Q. No, Ms. Selmanovic, I wasn't asking about October. I was asking

8 about early December, because this incident happened on the 10th of

9 December. Are there leaves on the trees, or not? And can you just

10 describe them.

11 A. No, there can't be leaves then. But I can't remember everything

12 now. Do you know how many years it's been now? I cannot really remember

13 everything now. But, well, what was there and what month and whether

14 there were leaves and -- December is -- well, okay, since it's December,

15 there couldn't have been.

16 Q. And, Ms. Selmanovic, no one expects you to remember perfectly.

17 We're just asking for the best you can do, and we understand.

18 When you say that, in your opinion, you were shot from Sharpstone,

19 can you tell us the reasons why you think that, please.

20 A. Yes. Well, shooting was coming from there the most and that's

21 what we were afraid of the most, because it was nearer and things like

22 that.

23 Q. For how long had shooting been coming from there before you

24 yourself were shot? How long had this been going on? And I don't know

25 that mean; I mean before that day.

Page 1596

1 A. Well, how can I tell you that when there was shooting every day.

2 It just wasn't this one day. Every day, well, I don't know, there was

3 shooting. I mean, how can I tell you that now? There was shooting every

4 day.

5 Q. For how many days or weeks or months, or whatever is the best way

6 to describe it, had there been shooting every day before the 10th of

7 December, 1994?

8 A. Oh, it was shooting. Come on. I cannot tell you what month or

9 whatever. We already got used to this shooting going on month after

10 month. I don't know.

11 Q. When you say "We already got used to this shooting ..." how had

12 you got used to this shooting? What changes had you made in your life or

13 in your daily routine, if you had made any?

14 A. We were so afraid and we were suffering such a lot. We couldn't

15 go out to get firewood, light up a fire, eat something. We didn't have

16 any light. We would just run away to shelters.

17 Q. If it was that dangerous, as you describe it, can you tell us why

18 you felt that you were able to go out into the yard that day, the 10th of

19 December, 1994?

20 A. Well, you have to. You have to go out. You have to. You're

21 waiting there and you're waiting and then you have to go out. You have

22 to. I mean, you cannot -- well, I don't know. You have to get some

23 firewood.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, we are ten minutes past the time

25 for the break.

Page 1597

1 MR. DOCHERTY: I have one more question, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right.


4 Q. My last question, Ms. Selmanovic, and this time it really is my

5 last question: When you say there had been shooting from Sharpstone every

6 day, what are your reasons for knowing that the shooting every day had

7 come from Sharpstone?

8 A. Well, what can I say? That's what we heard the most. It was

9 closest to us. You know, it was the closest place to us, and most of the

10 shooting came from there, the place where we were. That's how I know.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: That concludes my direct examination,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, one question,

14 please. The day when the incident took place, the day when you were hit,

15 had you already heard some blasts or shots being fired?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you -- well, you

17 know what? You would hear shooting all the time. So it was shooting,

18 shooting, shooting, you know; sometimes more, sometimes less. That day,

19 well, I just had to go out, and what happened happened. You cannot

20 remember everything, you know? It wasn't yesterday that you can remember

21 all of that. That's the only thing I can tell you. There was lots of

22 shooting and that's the way it was. It was so terrible. So there.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, but the day that you were hit,

24 you heard, other than the shot which reached you, you heard other shots

25 being fired as well. Is that what you're saying?

Page 1598

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, well, how can I say this? I

2 felt this bullet and fell. And you know what? You're afraid. You are so

3 afraid. You know, it's not that I paid attention to -- I mean, if I knew

4 there would be questions like this, then I'd -- well, I don't know what to

5 say to you. I can say what I can say. I was wounded and, you know, I

6 thought that I'd lost my leg. Something hit me so hard and there was this

7 blood and -- you know.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, there's one last

9 question I'd like to ask you because I'm still unclear. The noises that

10 you would hear, and that you heard also the day when you were hit, were

11 they coming from the same direction or from various directions?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you that. I don't

13 know. I don't know. I cannot say. There was shooting, and you'd be

14 hiding in the house most of the time. You know, you'd just hear shooting

15 and you'd run away to seek shelter.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn for the break now

18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, something else?

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, before the cross-examination starts,

22 could I please tender into evidence both the 360-degree and the video

23 clip.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they are admitted.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The 360-degree panoramic view will be Exhibit P171

Page 1599

1 and the video will be Exhibit P172.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

3 Ms. Isailovic, your cross-examination.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Branislava

7 Isailovic. I'm an attorney with the Paris bar. I'm defending

8 Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, accused in these proceedings.

9 We will now discuss your statements, the statements that were read

10 to you by the Prosecution a few days ago. So we will start with this

11 first statement, a statement that you made to the Bosnian police on March

12 12, 1995.

13 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, if I

14 may, the translation of this Official Note is a document that has a

15 different 65 ter number than the statement that was presented by the

16 Prosecutor. Since our witness does not read, could we please display the

17 65 ter document representing the English version of this Official Note,

18 and I will be reading to the witness the B/C/S version.

19 Do you agree with this procedure, Your Honour?


21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 So could my assistant please call up document 65 ter 02 -- 0281.

23 The first page, please.

24 Q. Witness, let me tell you what is happening. You said that you

25 have difficulties reading. Is that true?

Page 1600

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. So on the screen there is a document displayed. It's written in a

3 foreign language, in English, so that everybody here in the room can

4 follow, and then I will be reading a few excerpts from your statement but

5 in your own language.

6 First, Mrs. Witness, there's one little thing. When exactly did

7 your accident occur, on what day?

8 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember the exact date, what

9 exactly the date was.

10 Q. But is the Prosecutor right when saying that it was on December

11 10, 1994?

12 A. I think so.

13 Q. Now, Witness, this note, written by the Bosnian police after

14 having talked to you, was drafted three months after the incident actually

15 occurred, on March 12, 1995. Do you remember having gone to the police

16 department some three months after your accident?

17 A. I can't. I can't. It's been a long time. I can't remember every

18 single thing. It really has been a long time. And I made those

19 statements, sure thing, I did. But I can't remember the date and

20 everything.

21 Q. Witness, when you were talking to the police and the policeman

22 actually made a report - and this policeman is Mr. Nedzib Dzozo - you said

23 that a few things and I will read to you what you just said.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] For the others following the

25 English version, I am saying it's the third paragraph, starting with "On

Page 1601

1 the morning of December 10, 1994 ..."

2 Q. "On the morning of December 10, 1994, in the morning hours, I went

3 to Sedrenik intending to fetch firewood for our home. I went to a

4 friend's house where I had once lived because there was firewood there

5 that had already been chopped and stacked in the front yard of the house.

6 I stayed there for a long time, more specifically until 1100 hours,

7 because I could not leave the house on account of the constant sniper fire

8 from Spicaste Stijena."

9 All this is accurate. I'll ask you a question. You're saying, "I

10 went to Sedrenik," so could we infer from this that on December 10, 1994,

11 you were not living in Sedrenik.

12 A. Believe me, I don't know the dates. You know, I don't remember

13 the dates when I was there or -- I don't know. I don't know. Let me tell

14 you, I must have mixed it up. The whole thing is just so mixed up. It's

15 difficult to find my way around.

16 Q. Witness, please, is it fair to say that on December 10, 1994, you

17 were not in your own house but you were at your friend's who lived in

18 Sedrenik?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But you don't come from Sedrenik; right?

21 A. That's true. I'm not originally from there. I just live there.

22 Q. Witness, in the statement you made to the ICTY investigator on

23 April 20th, 2006 - 65 ter number 2879 - on the second page, you talked to

24 the investigator about your life in Sarajevo. You were expelled by the

25 Serbs; that's what you say, anyway. You said that you were expelled from

Page 1602

1 your -- the village of Negosici, which was the village where you were born

2 and where you were living at the time. Is that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it's only in September 1992 that you started living in

5 Sarajevo.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So, Witness, before December 10th, 1994, how long did you live in

8 Sedrenik? For how long did you live there?

9 A. I don't really remember for how long for. Was it a year or was it

10 more? I can't remember. I can't remember everything. I don't know

11 exactly, and I'm not saying since I know that I don't know exactly how

12 long I was there for.

13 Q. Witness, you weren't really familiar with Sedrenik. Am I right in

14 saying that?

15 A. I can't remember everything, really, I'm telling you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What she's asking you, Witness, is whether you

17 were familiar with Sedrenik, that is, whether you knew the place. Did you

18 know Sedrenik very well?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sedrenik, well, you know, I knew it

20 as a town. I used to come there a lot. I lived there for some time and

21 that sort of thing. But I don't know how long I was there for exactly. I

22 didn't really make a mental note of how long it was at the time.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, when you're talking about Grdonj and Spicasta Stijena, is

25 it when you came to live at Sedrenik that you became familiar with all

Page 1603

1 those names, all those place names?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And about Spicasta Stijena, Sharpstone, could you tell us when,

4 approximately, you heard about Sharpstone for the first time.

5 A. Well, I'm telling you what I know. They said, "They're firing

6 from Spicasta Stijena. Watch out. Take care. They're firing." So

7 that's why. That's when I learned about Spicasta Stijena. I hadn't known

8 about it until this happened.

9 Q. Witness, you were working for the -- you are working for the BiH

10 army. Is that true?

11 A. Yes, I was working, a little.

12 Q. In the statement that is on the screen, on paragraph 8, the

13 statement that was read to you by the Prosecutor just a few days ago, you

14 told the ICTY investigator that you had some kind of a uniform but you

15 were told not to wear it. And I believe that what you are saying is

16 pretty accurate.

17 A. I was not wearing a uniform. We just wouldn't. You know, there

18 was no need. You work there; you don't really get that dirty.

19 Q. In your opinion, Witness, were there a lot of people working for

20 the BiH army but who did not wear their uniforms for the same reasons?

21 A. I really can't tell you. I really can't tell you. I just don't

22 know.

23 Q. In your statement, you said something that I believe is quite

24 true, and I will read it out to you. The English version is binding; it's

25 the original. It's on the same page. So let me read it to you. It's on

Page 1604

1 paragraph 8. You say at the end of paragraph 8, for those of us following

2 the text: "However, one had a better chance of escaping sniper fire if

3 one was dressed in civilian clothes."

4 Do you still agree with what you said? Do you still maintain what

5 you said then?

6 A. Yes, I still maintain what I stated. I maintain that. That's

7 true. That's true. I gave a statement.

8 Q. Is that the reason why you tried not to wear that uniform that was

9 given to you, as much as you could?

10 A. I'm not sure what to tell you. I just -- I just wouldn't wear

11 it. You went about your work. You cleaned up, that sort of thing, so you

12 get dirty a little and you put on something else. You know how that sort

13 of thing goes; right?

14 Q. Witness, on your workplace -- on the way to your workplace, so

15 between, you know, the place where you lived - and you changed quite often

16 your residence - and your place of work, did you see a lot of people that

17 had weapons but that did not have a uniform?

18 A. No, I didn't see that much at all, really. Really, I -- not

19 often, no.

20 Q. Witness, let's return to the incident of December 10, 1994.

21 Earlier we listened to you, and I think you said that on that morning

22 there was quite a lot of shooting in Sedrenik. Is that true?

23 A. Well, there was always shooting. Was it more and more? What do I

24 know? When I was wounded, I know that because of the transport they had

25 difficulty taking me across.

Page 1605

1 Q. However, it's obvious to me that you don't remember much today,

2 and maybe even at the time it was a bit blurry. But there's one thing

3 that keeps coming back and it's that place name, Spicasta Stijena, and

4 that's what strikes me. How could you --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you're asking several questions,

6 and I consider it important that she be allowed to answer them

7 individually. Your first question was: "It's obvious to me that you

8 don't remember much today, and maybe even at the time it was a bit

9 blurry." Do you mean the -- sorry, what are you saying?

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I did not say that.

11 I did not say this. You can check. What I said is "Maybe it's a bit

12 confused in your mind at the moment." I was thinking about the memories;

13 they're confused.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but were you not --

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] But I'll come back to that.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were you not also putting to her that at the time

17 when she gave the statement her memory was also perhaps confusing and

18 faulty? Because I'd like her to clarify that, if you were, in fact,

19 putting that to her. Were you putting that to her?

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll come back to the

21 weather that morning, that day. But I was trying to introduce things, and

22 as an introduction I said, "I know that maybe it's a bit confused in your

23 mind, but one thing that keeps cropping up is that place name, Spicasta

24 Stijena." I wasn't talking about fog or anything.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I wasn't talking about fog either. The whole

Page 1606

1 thing is a bit foggy. I will allow you to go on, but as far as is

2 possible, I would like to you put your questions one at a time,

3 individually.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, there's one thing that is always mentioned in your

6 statements, this place name of Spicasta Stijena, Sharpstone; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So when you were wounded, the part of your body, even though we're

10 not quite sure which part of your body it is after having seen this video,

11 on which side -- on which side you were hit, because you were showing

12 various things. Am I right in saying that?

13 A. It was like I said. I used the right hand. I said I was wrong.

14 The left hand is correct.

15 Q. Witness, I understand, but we would have liked to see a medical

16 report. Did you go and see a doctor after you'd been wounded?

17 A. I don't know what that means exactly. A doctor, yes. Yes, I did

18 go.

19 Q. When did you, for the first time, hear about injuries and shots

20 that came from Spicasta Stijena, Sharpstone?

21 A. What do I know? I wasn't really following.

22 Q. Witness, you also talked about Grdonj. Are you quite sure where

23 that hill is located? Do you know where it was?

24 A. Between Grdonj and Spicaste, it's over there. It overlooks

25 Sarajevo. You know where Grdonj is, where I lived there. It was to the

Page 1607

1 left of where we were and so was Spicasta Stijena. It's right next to the

2 other rock.

3 Q. Witness, at the time, did you know that the ABiH units were also

4 positioned on Grdonj, just below Spicasta Stijena, Sharpstone, and

5 Sedrenik?

6 A. I don't know about those things or where they were. I don't know.

7 Q. But you know full well that the Serbs fired their shots from

8 Spicasta Stijena, and they were the ones that fired the shot that injured

9 you.

10 A. The bullet could not have come like that because I was close by.

11 We would only leave the house when absolutely necessary. Apart from that,

12 the rest of the time we were just hiding.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Ms. Isailovic,

14 please.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, what was the weather like on that morning you were

17 injured, please?

18 A. That morning, it was much like any morning. It was a little

19 foggy, a little overcast, that sort of thing. That's at least what I can

20 remember. You're wounded. You know what that's like. You're a bit --

21 yes.

22 Q. A while ago we watched this video and you were asked a question

23 about the trees. So what could you actually see between the place where

24 you were and the place the shot came from, the shot that hit you? You

25 mentioned pine trees. I think there are a lot of evergreens in that area,

Page 1608

1 aren't there?

2 A. Spicasta Stijena, up there, yes. Up there at the very peak there

3 isn't that much. But, yes, there is a lot all around, all these green

4 pine trees.

5 Q. Witness, these trees, these pine trees, are these pine trees

6 growing on the hills of Grdonj also?

7 A. No, not on Grdonj. Between Grdonj and Spicaste. Right between

8 the two there are some there.

9 Q. And between Grdonj and Spicasta Stijena, which lies on the

10 hilltop, and Sedrenik, are there a lot of pine trees there also?

11 A. Well, let me tell you, there's the air and then the neighbours, as

12 the crow flows, there is Sedrenik right there, Spicaste, the pine trees

13 there. There's a line there of pine trees, and the rest is just meadows

14 and fields.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I hadn't put my

17 microphone on. This is my last question, and I was just thanking the

18 witness.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr. Docherty.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: None, Your Honour, thank you.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank you for

23 coming to give it, and you may now leave.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 1609

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the next witness.

2 You're having a problem, Ms. Marcus, with the technology?

3 MS. MARCUS: My microphone is not on.

4 Can I be heard?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I am hearing you.

6 MS. MARCUS: Okay, thank you. The Prosecution calls Witness 118,

7 please.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Ms. Marcus.

18 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours

19 Examination by Ms. Marcus:

20 Q. Good morning, Witness. I'm going to show you now a piece of paper

21 which I'd like you to look at, and please just confirm for the Court that

22 that is, in fact, your name on that piece of paper.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 MS. MARCUS: May I request that it be shown to the parties and the

25 Chamber. And afterwards, may I request, please, that that pseudonym sheet

Page 1610

1 be admitted under seal.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P173 under

4 seal.

5 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.

6 Q. Madam Witness, can you please tell the Court how long you've lived

7 in Sarajevo?

8 A. Since I was born.

9 Q. And can you please tell the Court, what was your profession in the

10 year 1995?

11 A. I was working as a tram driver.

12 Q. Why did you become a tram driver?

13 A. I wanted to help my city, in a way. I wanted to be involved in

14 the defence of the city and make a contribution.

15 MS. MARCUS: Can I please request the court officer to pull up 65

16 ter number 2882. And please, if that could not be broadcast, that would

17 be -- thank you.

18 Q. Madam Witness, you see before you on the monitor, do you see the

19 front cover of a statement?

20 A. I see it.

21 Q. And at the bottom of the page, do you see your signature there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is this the statement that you gave to Tribunal investigators on

24 the 15th and 16th of November, 1995?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1611

1 Q. What language did you give your statement in, please?

2 A. Bosnian.

3 Q. Did you re-read this statement before coming to court today?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you say that that statement is a true and accurate

6 representation of what you told Tribunal investigators on the 15th and

7 16th November, 1995?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. MARCUS: May I now request the court officer to pull up 65 ter

10 number 2884, please. And, again, if that could not be broadcast, that

11 would be appreciated.

12 Q. Madam Witness, do you see the statement on the monitor before you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you see your signature on the bottom of that statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you confirm that this is the statement that you gave to

17 Tribunal investigators on the 19th of April, 2006?

18 A. I can.

19 Q. What language did you give this statement in, please?

20 A. In Bosnian.

21 Q. Did you re-read this statement before coming to court today?

22 A. Today?

23 Q. Before you came to court today, did you have a chance to re-read

24 this statement?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 1612

1 Q. Thank you. In that statement, this one in front of us, did you

2 clarify some of the information you had given previously?

3 A. I don't know. Could you repeat that?

4 Q. Sure, no problem. I wanted to know if you had -- in your later

5 statement that you gave to the Tribunal investigators, did you clarify

6 some issues from your earlier statement?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Is there anything else you would like to clarify for us from the

9 statement?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would you say that this statement true and accurate representation

12 of what you told Tribunal investigators on the 19th of April, 2006?

13 A. Yes.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]


16 Q. If asked the same questions today, Madam Witness, would you give

17 the same answers?

18 A. I think I would.

19 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I would like to request that these two

20 statements be given exhibit numbers. They've already been admitted

21 pursuant to Rule 92 ter.


23 MS. MARCUS: And, if possible, if they could be admitted under

24 seal.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement of 15, 16 November

Page 1613

1 1995, will be Exhibit P174 under seal; and the statement of the 19th of

2 April, 2006, Exhibit P175, under seal.

3 MS. MARCUS: May I now request the court officer, please, to pull

4 up 65 ter number 2872.

5 While that is loading, I'll continue with a few questions, Madam

6 Witness.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, can I ask you or Mr. Docherty, the

8 clarifications which a witness makes to an earlier statement are made

9 during the briefing done by the Prosecutor or the investigator.

10 MS. MARCUS: No, Mr. President. The clarifications are contained

11 in the statement, the ones that I'm referring to. So when the witness was

12 re-interviewed on the 19th of April, 2006, some small things from her

13 statement of 11 years previously were clarified, and they are contained --

14 those clarifications are contained in the statement. This does not relate

15 to proofing, proofing notes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Those clarifications arise from the -- of the

17 witness's own motion, or do they arise from questioning and prodding by

18 the Prosecutor or the investigator?

19 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Mr. President. In this case, you'll find

20 that a lot of the statements that were taken from the witnesses in 1995

21 were taken quite a long time before, and certainly before this indictment,

22 and so therefore those statements are often quite brief and they don't go

23 into much detail. Then, later on, the witnesses are recontacted -- have

24 been recontacted and some of the issues have been elaborated on, so the

25 later statement is quite extensive usually as compared with the earlier

Page 1614

1 statement. So that's -- it's the normal interview process for

2 clarification of issues.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because it strikes me that some of the

4 clarifications are fairly substantive ones. You say that in this case

5 they all relate to fairly minor matters. But in some cases with other

6 witnesses, it has been occurring to me that some of them are fairly

7 substantial.

8 MS. MARCUS: Would Mr. President and Your Honours like, in those

9 situations, for us to bring those out live from the witness and discuss

10 them?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, it seems -- but, of course, the

12 evidence which we will hear is the evidence of the witness in court. But

13 if the evidence that the witness is giving in court is derived by

14 prompting from the Prosecutor, it is to that extent that its value as to

15 that extent is diminished.

16 Mr. Docherty, you wanted to say something?

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, in this particular case, it's as my

18 colleague has described. And these clarifications arise in a number of

19 different ways. Sometimes the witness -- always the witness is given

20 their earlier statements and asked to read them, and everyone sits quietly

21 while that is done. Sometimes the witness says, "Oh, this is not quite

22 correct," and then we fix that or we type up a proofing note or we

23 incorporate it into the second statement.

24 As far as pushing and prodding, I will represent there is no

25 pushing and prodding. But oftentimes something that is covered in a

Page 1615

1 sentence in a statement in 1995 generates half a dozen questions when the

2 subject is gone into in more depth. And in the course of a more detailed

3 examination, the witness volunteers that, "Oh, perhaps the better way to

4 put it is thus and so" or perhaps "so forth."

5 I would also respectfully remind the Court that if there is a

6 question about any impropriety during these meetings, that is a question

7 that either the Defence -- the Defence can certainly cross-examine about

8 the circumstances under which a statement was taken, and of course the

9 Court can also inquire of the witness about the circumstances under which

10 the witness gave the statement. There is nothing there that I would feel

11 the least bit defensive about or concerned to have a witness questioned in

12 that way.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I raise it because the system of the

14 Prosecutor -- what is the term "briefing"? Not briefing, proofing.

15 Proofing the witnesses was really new to me when I came here, because when

16 I prosecuted 40 years ago, I was not allowed to speak to my prosecution

17 witnesses at all. It would have been considered wholly improper. But I

18 know in the United States it's certainly done, and I believe in Jamaica

19 now they're getting a little more modern and giving a little leeway to the

20 prosecutor.

21 Thank you very much. Go ahead.

22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Madam Witness, your evidence given in those statements, which you

24 just confirmed, relates to an incident in which your tram was fired upon.

25 Can you tell the Court the date of that incident, please.

Page 1616

1 A. It was in February, but, believe me, I cannot remember the exact

2 date. February 1995.

3 Q. Do you recall from which part of town the tram was coming on that

4 day?

5 A. Yes. Well, the tram was going towards Ilidza, from the centre of

6 town towards Ilidza. Do we understand each other?

7 Q. Yes, thank you. And where was the tram when you came under fire?

8 A. When I set out from the station, the Marshal Tito barracks, say 20

9 metres away, that's where it started, the shooting.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus I'm sorry, I'm going to stop now for

11 two reasons; one, I intend to stop every day a minute or two, because

12 Judge Mindua has to be back in court at 2.15; he only has half an hour.

13 And, secondly, there is a matter that I wish to raise after the witness

14 leaves.

15 You may now leave, Madam Witness, and return tomorrow morning at

16 9.00.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And can we go into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1617











11 Page 1617 redacted. Private session.















Page 1618

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day

9 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.