Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1619

1 Tuesday, 6 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Mindua, being absent for the first session,

7 Judge Harhoff and I sit pursuant to the provisions of Rule 15 bis.

8 Yesterday, an issue arose between the parties as to the witness to

9 whom the Trial Chamber's decision on protective measures of the 19th of

10 January applied. I'm to say that the Chamber has investigated the

11 matter. The decision applied to Witness W-54, who was granted pseudonym,

12 image and voice distortion.

13 We continue now, Ms. Marcus.

14 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS W-118 [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness.

19 A. Good morning.

20 MS. MARCUS: Before I begin, may I please request the court

21 officer to pull up 65 ter number 2872, and while that is loading, I'll ask

22 a few more questions.

23 Q. Madam Witness, yesterday, just before we adjourned, you were

24 telling us -- and I'm reading from the transcript of yesterday. I asked

25 you if you recall which part of town the tram was coming from and you said

Page 1620

1 the tram was going towards Ilidza, from the centre towards Ilidza. And

2 then I asked you where the tram was when you came under fire and you

3 said, "... the Marsal Tito barracks, say 20 metres away, that's where it

4 started, the shooting."

5 Do you remember saying that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Can you tell the Court, please, if you remember from which

8 direction the shots came?

9 A. From my left.

10 Q. And can you identify for the Court what was to your left?

11 A. To my left there was the Serbian army. That is a section of

12 Grbavica and that's where the shots were coming from.

13 Q. Once the shooting began, did you stop the tram immediately or did

14 you continue?

15 A. I continued.

16 Q. Do you remember, approximately, how much farther you drove before

17 you stopped?

18 A. For about 50 metres. I was trying to protect myself and the

19 people on the tram. I stopped by the faculty of natural sciences because

20 that building offered a certain degree of shelter.

21 Q. Madam Witness, do you see the map on the monitor in front of you?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. MARCUS: Can I request, please, that it be zoomed in a little

24 bit. Thank you. And I would also like to ask the court usher to assist

25 the witness in marking.

Page 1621

1 Q. Madam Witness, on the screen where the map appears, do you see the

2 area where you were -- where the tram was when you came under fire?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you possibly be able to mark with an X the location,

5 approximately, where the tram was when the shooting began.

6 A. There.

7 Q. Thank you. And would you now be able to draw a line along the

8 path that you continued with the tram until the point where you stopped.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Does that mark accurately reflect the line you drove from the

11 shooting began until where you stopped?

12 A. I think so. Right here.

13 Q. Okay. Madam Witness, just to clarify, would you -- do you accept

14 the drawing the way you did it? Do you want to redo it, or is this

15 according to your memory, what you've drawn?

16 A. It could be like this. The way I see this map, this should be it.

17 Q. Okay, thank you. Can you also indicate for the Court

18 approximately the area from where you say the shots were fired. If you

19 could circle that area, that approximate area.

20 A. This area over here, roughly speaking.

21 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to tender this marked map, please.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P176, Your Honours.

24 MS. MARCUS: Can I now request the court officer to pull up 65 ter

25 number 2914, and I will also asking the witness to mark this one.

Page 1622

1 Q. Madam Witness, do you see a photograph in front of you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you think you would be able, on this photograph, to mark, just

4 as we did on the map, an X at the location where you remember the tram

5 being when the shots started.

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. Could you please mark that location with an X, where the tram was

8 when the shooting began, approximately.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Now, similarly to what we did on the map, would you be able to

11 draw a line along -- the way the tram continued, approximately, until it

12 stopped, please.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. And also could you now indicate on the map, again by circling, the

15 area of town from which you believe the shots were fired.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to tender this photograph, please, into

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we do that, could you ask her why she

21 believed the shots were fired from that particular area.

22 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Mr. President.

23 Q. Madam Witness, could you please tell the Court what makes you

24 believe that the shots were fired from that area?

25 A. Because the shots were coming from my left, and to my left there

Page 1623

1 were the positions of the Serbian army. It couldn't possibly have been

2 anyone else. The shots came from that part of town.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 Yes, we admit the photograph.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P177, Your Honours.


7 Q. Madam Witness, can you explain to the Court why you stopped at

8 that location?

9 A. You mean when the shooting stopped?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I stopped near the faculty of natural sciences because that seemed

12 to be a relatively safe place to take shelter. I couldn't continue,

13 because people were trying to break out the tram doors, and there's no way

14 a tram can continue driving, back where I come from, if people are trying

15 to get out.

16 Q. Madam Witness, were there any ABiH soldiers on your tram on that

17 day?

18 A. Yes, there was one. He was standing next to me, and that was the

19 only reason I noticed.

20 Q. Did you see any other ABiH soldiers on your tram that day?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Did you see any ABiH soldiers near the tram but outside, near the

23 tram on that day?

24 A. I don't remember that either. Not that I noticed.

25 Q. Did you see any ABiH vehicles near the tram on that day?

Page 1624

1 A. No. I can't remember any.

2 Q. Do you recall any combat activity taking place around the tram or

3 near the incident on that day?

4 A. There were none. It was during a truce.

5 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like?

6 A. Not really.

7 Q. Do you recall if the tram was crowded?

8 A. Quite, yes. There were quite many people.

9 Q. Do you remember what you were wearing on that day?

10 A. I do remember that. I was wearing a black leather jacket, which

11 would often bring me luck, and it even saved my life a couple of times in

12 the war. That's why I remember.

13 Q. Was the area where you came under fire known to be a dangerous

14 area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why was it known to be a dangerous area?

17 A. Because that was an open area and that's where most people came to

18 grief.

19 Q. On this route that you were driving that day, did you normally

20 stop at every tram stop?

21 A. Yes. We stopped at all of them, except there was one stop just

22 before the school of technology. That stop had been abandoned during the

23 war. But the stop where I eventually stopped was a compulsory one; I had

24 no choice but to stop there.

25 Q. As a tram driver, how did you decide when to drive and when not to

Page 1625

1 drive the trams?

2 A. It wasn't my call. It was down to the authorities. But normally

3 when there was a truce or a cease-fire we would come out and do our

4 rounds. If there was something that wasn't right, they'd let us know. We

5 didn't know when shooting would start. It was all unsafe. During

6 cease-fires and outside cease-fires, the Serb army was always firing at

7 us. They had no respect for those things.

8 Q. Madam Witness, can you describe the shots that were fired at your

9 tram on the 27th of February, 1995?

10 A. I couldn't even believe that those were shots. Believe me, I

11 first thought that the wires above the tram were breaking and snapping.

12 At first, my impression was that the wires were snapping. There was this

13 loud noise, a droning sound. I had the feeling that the glass panes all

14 along the tram were being shattered. I didn't even turn to look left. I

15 just looked to my right to see what was happening to my passengers, but

16 they were all down on the floor by the time I turned around to look.

17 Q. At what time did you realise that it was shots that were being

18 fired rather than the wires snapping?

19 A. Because of the way people screamed. I turned around, and I saw

20 blood. That's when I first realised that those had been shots that had

21 been fired.

22 Q. Do you have any idea how many shots were fired at your tram?

23 A. No, not exactly. My impression was that the whole length of the

24 tram was being targeted, but I really don't know. It wasn't my impression

25 that there was a single shot. It felt more like a burst of fire at the

Page 1626

1 time.

2 Q. Madam Witness, did you have an opportunity to look at the damage

3 to your tram after?

4 A. Yes. Several minutes later, at the depot where we leave our trams

5 at the end of the day, I got off. I gave it a look, and there was this

6 zigzagging pattern, but I didn't dwell for too long. I didn't really feel

7 like it. I could hardly wait to go home and get some rest instead.

8 Q. Which side of the tram received this zigzagging pattern of bullets

9 that you described, please?

10 A. The left side of the tram, to my left as I was seated. There was

11 this one bullet - my boss took me there to show me - it hit the tram right

12 to my left. There's a bunch of wires there. If the bullet had got

13 through, it would have hit me right here and it would have crippled me. I

14 nearly went insane just thinking about this, so I decided to no longer

15 even look.

16 Q. Based on your personal recollection, how many people were injured

17 on your tram on that day?

18 A. I just saw one lady. I don't know exactly how many. We got off

19 to help people. We stopped some of the cars driving past. We were all

20 there. So at one point I went back, and they wouldn't let me go anywhere

21 else until the whole thing was over.

22 Q. Madam Witness, can you tell the Court how this incident affected

23 your life?

24 A. It wasn't just that incident. Life in Sarajevo was very difficult

25 at the time, generally speaking. As for the incident itself, it wracked

Page 1627

1 my nerves. It has had both a mental and a physical impact on my life and

2 my work, and all the rest, you might say.

3 Q. Sorry, did you want to continue?

4 A. No, not really. Try as I might explain to the Court how that

5 feels, ultimately I can hardly succeed, because only someone who was

6 actually physically present there can ever know what it felt like.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, I'm not certain whether you asked her

8 what work she's now doing. Let me ask her, then.

9 Witness, are you now employed; and, if so, doing what?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm still with the same

11 company, but I sell tickets now. I don't drive anymore. Same company,

12 though; I just don't drive anymore.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was it your decision not to drive anymore?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes. I went to see a

15 neuropsychiatrist at one point. They took me off the schedule. I was

16 declared to be a handicapped person and that's why they changed my job.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there any difference in your remuneration?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. My salary is the same. Tram

19 drivers have the best salary in that sort of company. But my salary has

20 remained the same. Only my actual job has changed.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

23 Ms. Isailovic. Ms. Isailovic, yes.

24 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Branislava

Page 1628

1 Isailovic. I'm an attorney-at-law and a member of the Paris Bar

2 Association.

3 I would like to ask a few questions regarding the statements you

4 made to the Office of the Prosecutor on various occasions as well as the

5 statement that you made to the Bosnian police. Do you remember all these

6 statements?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. According to the information I have, you gave three different

9 statements, three statements to the Office of the Prosecution. We

10 mentioned two of them. However, you made a statement on the 15th and 16th

11 of November, 1995, then another one on the 2nd of May, 1996, and a third

12 one on April 19, 2006. Is that correct?

13 A. I can't remember the dates, but I think so. Yes, if you see my

14 signature there, it probably means that I was the one who made the

15 statement.

16 Q. And the closer date to the accident, which took place in March

17 1995, is the 1st of March, 1995, when you made a statement to the Bosnian

18 police. Do you remember this?

19 A. The statement, perhaps, but the incident occurred in February, not

20 in March. As far as I remember. I can't remember the exact date, but the

21 incident that occurred while I was driving the tram occurred late in

22 February 1995 rather than in March.

23 Q. Yes, indeed. The accident, indeed, but then I mentioned the

24 statement that you gave to the police on the 1st of March, 1995.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to ask my

Page 1629

1 assistant --

2 A. That's a different thing. The statement is all right, but the

3 incident itself -- the statement was made in March. I can't remember when

4 exactly. It was several days after the incident, but I can't remember the

5 exact date.

6 Q. Thank you. Now everything is clear.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my assistant to pull

8 up the document 2883, a document that was included on the 65 ter list.

9 Let's move on to page 6 of that document. 2886.

10 My apologies, Your Honour. We can't find the statement, it

11 seems. Let's then take a look at the photograph we saw a moment ago and

12 then we'll go back to the document, the statement, later.

13 Now, let's move to photograph 2914. Could we have a close-up,

14 please.

15 Q. Madam Witness, this is a photograph that was shown to you by the

16 Prosecution. Please don't speak when my microphone is on. I have to

17 switch it off every time I finish talking because we don't want to hear

18 your voice outside this courtroom.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher,

20 I would like the pen to be given to Madam Witness.

21 Q. I would like, Witness, you to show us the route followed by your

22 tram on that particular day.

23 A. The route followed by the tram, it was going from the centre of

24 town towards Ilidza.

25 Q. Did your tram go anywhere near the Holiday Inn that day?

Page 1630

1 A. Yes. I passed this whole area, heading that way.

2 Q. Madam Witness, could you please draw a straight line to show the

3 tracks that you can see on that particular photograph, please.

4 A. I don't understand what you mean by "a straight line."

5 Q. The route followed by the tram on that day, the tram you were

6 driving, could you draw a straight line there, please. Could you use your

7 pen, please, to do so.

8 A. Do you want me to do that in the whole map? This is how the tram

9 was running, from the centre of the town all along this way.

10 Q. Witness, you mentioned the various sounds you heard on that day.

11 You told us that you weren't sure that shots were being fired and you

12 thought you might have heard something else. Are you quite sure about the

13 time when you first heard the shots?

14 A. The way you asked me this question infers that I didn't hear any

15 shots. I didn't realise initially that there was shooting going on.

16 Q. Precisely. That's why I was asking you the question. Where on

17 this route did you understand that these were shots?

18 A. At which section of the path? When I set off from the stop, some

19 20 metres onwards was the point when the shooting started.

20 Q. Where is the tram stop, please? Could you mark it with the letter

21 X, or a cross. Could you indicate to us where you opened the doors so

22 that the passengers could get off.

23 A. Approximately here, after we passed this spot.

24 Q. Earlier on you mentioned the Marshal Tito barracks. Weren't the

25 barracks a bit before that, closer to the city centre?

Page 1631

1 A. The barracks should be somewhere here. This is the faculty of

2 natural sciences and mathematics. As far as I'm able to orientate myself

3 in this picture, this is where the stop, approximately, was.

4 Q. Could you pick up your pen, please, and indicate that on the

5 photograph, please. Because on this photograph we can't see the Marshal

6 Tito barracks. There's, I think, some buildings under construction.

7 Where were the Marshal Tito barracks?

8 A. Well, the barracks should be here, approximately. I find it

9 difficult to find my way around this map. This area is more clear. This

10 is where the stop should be and this where the barracks should be. I just

11 can't --

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the usher could give a

13 helping hand to the witness so that the witness can use the pen properly.

14 Q. We can't really see if you don't mark it with the pen on the

15 photograph. So according to you, where were the barracks? Could you mark

16 this with the letter C, please.

17 A. Where the barracks were? I suppose here, in this part. This is

18 the stop and I think it was here.

19 Q. And the tram stop closest to the barracks, could you tell us where

20 that is? So, now that we know where the barracks are, could you tell us

21 where the tram stop was, please. I assume the tram stop was called Marsal

22 Tito barracks, or something like that.

23 A. Yes. The stop was just at the beginning of the barracks.

24 Q. Witness, where would this be? Would this be at the junction where

25 the tram number 4 goes in the direction of the station? Is that where the

Page 1632

1 Marshal Tito barracks tram stop is located?

2 A. There was another stop that you are referring to where number 4

3 makes a detour towards the railway station and it's called the school of

4 engineering; that's one stop. And after that was the Marshal Tito

5 barracks. The one that you're referring to by the school of engineering

6 was not operational at the time. The tram heading for the railway station

7 didn't stop there.

8 Q. So what you are saying is that the cross at the end of this

9 straight line which you've indicated on the left-hand side of the

10 photograph is where the Marshal Tito barracks tram stop was, which was a

11 little bit -- which wasn't quite where the barracks were but a little bit

12 further away.

13 A. Where you told me to put a circle was the place where I stopped to

14 let the passengers out. The stop was a little bit further on. You asked

15 me to put a circle where I stopped the tram to let the passengers out.

16 Q. I can't see this now on the photograph. Could you mark this with

17 the letter X. Could you show us and mark this with the letter X and tell

18 us where the Marshal Tito barracks tram stop was.

19 A. Are you referring to the stop or the barracks? I just marked

20 minutes ago where the barracks was. What are you referring to now, the

21 stop or the barracks?

22 Q. I'm asking you to show us where the tram stop was.

23 A. If this is the barracks, the stop would be approximately somewhere

24 here, at the beginning.

25 Q. Could you mark this with the letter A, please, on the spot where

Page 1633

1 the passengers got off the tram.

2 A. Where the passengers got off? I just marked it. I can't say for

3 sure now. I can't.

4 Q. Could you just tell us where that is, for the purposes of the

5 transcript. Could you mark this with the letter A. Could you mark that

6 spot, please, with a letter A.

7 A. Where I let the people off?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Could you please clarify this for me. Where I let the passengers

10 out after the shooting stopped or where I let the passengers off at the

11 stop before the shooting had started?

12 Q. No. First of all, mark with the letter A the spot where at the

13 time - and you corroborated it today - the spot where the Marshal Tito

14 barracks were. So this was the tram stop. Could you mark this with the

15 letter A, please.

16 A. Should be here, approximately. Letter A? Yes.

17 Q. So once the passengers got off the tram, you then continued your

18 route in the direction of Ilidza. And the second cross indicates the spot

19 where, according to you, you sought shelter after the shots. Is that

20 right?

21 A. This first X is the place where I stopped at the usual spot, where

22 I stopped to pick up passengers and get them off. When I was approaching

23 the next stop, that is where the shooting occurred. And after that I

24 stopped the tram close to the faculty of natural sciences for the purpose

25 of finding shelter. I can't find my way around precisely. I just showed

Page 1634

1 it a little bit earlier on.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak into the microphone,

3 please.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. The second cross --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, please speak into the microphone. The

7 interpreter is having difficult hearing you.

8 A. Yeah, I apologise.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So, the second cross, we could mark this with a letter B. The

11 second cross shows where you sought shelter; is that right?

12 A. Yes, after the shooting, when it stopped. It should be somewhere

13 here. Here.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not seeing it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Letter B.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, yes, I see it now. Yes.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

18 the court deputy -- I would like to offer this exhibit as evidence,

19 please.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D39, Your Honours.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my case manager to

23 bring up on the screen the street map number 2872. This is a 65 ter

24 document.

25 Q. This is a street map indicating the various streets of Sarajevo

Page 1635

1 which you were shown a while ago. Maybe we'll be able to see all of this

2 a little bit more clearly.

3 In the meantime, I would like to ask you a question about your

4 career as a tram driver. According to your statements, I think you wanted

5 to take an examination which was conducted by the company called GRAS, but

6 before you became a tram driver, I assume you had an internship where you

7 got some form of training. How long did this last?

8 A. In September of 1994, this vacancy was announced. I applied, but

9 since I knew how to drive the tram, I passed the exam without any

10 problems. And I started working immediately sometime in December, so a

11 month or two later.

12 Q. In December, were the trams running quite normally?

13 A. No. The service was not normal. We just went out on and off. We

14 did some exercise in the depot because the situation was not normal enough

15 for us to go out and work normally.

16 Q. From when onwards did the trams start running?

17 A. I don't know.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] The map is now coming up on the

19 screen. Perhaps we could enlarge the right-hand side of this map, please.

20 Very well.

21 Q. Witness, could you tell us now where the barracks were? Could you

22 show us -- could you show this on the map, please.

23 A. Just a moment. Marindvor. It should be here, approximately.

24 Q. Could you mark this with the letter C, please.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 1636

1 Q. So this indicates where the Marshal Tito barracks tram stop was.

2 When you were asked a while ago where the shots came from, you said the

3 shots came from the left-hand side, and that was territory held by the

4 Serbs. Is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And when you say that this came from the territory which was held

7 by the Serbs, where does this territory start on the map?

8 A. I don't know exactly where it started, but we were divided by the

9 Miljacka. The right-hand side was sort of ours and the left side belonged

10 to the Serbs.

11 Q. Could you please show us on this map Miljacka and draw a line

12 along the river.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Madam Witness, what I see here on your left is the ABiH-held

15 territory; is that correct?

16 A. Can you please repeat the question.

17 Q. Yes, of course. Now that you have drawn this line and we can see

18 it very well on the map, you're saying that the Miljacka river was in fact

19 the separation line between the two warring factions. I infer from your

20 drawing that if the letter C represents the stop, on your left-hand side

21 was not only the territory held by the Republika Srpska army but also the

22 territory held by the ABiH. Is that correct?

23 A. That is correct. But in this area around Marindvor was UNPROFOR,

24 not our army. Yes, the right-hand side was ours. But at this side of the

25 demarcation line was UNPROFOR, and I don't know if there was any army

Page 1637

1 there or not.

2 Q. Madam Witness, this is precisely the reason why I'm asking this

3 question. Can you confirm that between the two warring factions there

4 were occasional shootings or fighting which would be pretty normal in a

5 war context, of course.

6 A. I wasn't on the front line in order to be able to know about

7 that. However, since I spent all my time in the city, the army did not

8 shoot at the Serbs. However, the Serbs shot and fired at us and shelled

9 us all the time. I don't understand the point of your question. Are you

10 inferring that we, as civilians, were shooting at the Serbian side? I

11 didn't see a single person in town with a rifle shooting at the other

12 side.

13 Q. No, of course not. I'm not saying that civilians were shooting

14 against anybody. But I just wanted to ask this question regarding the

15 units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I think we agree that

16 units were there throughout the town.

17 A. Well, they were there, I suppose, but not in the centre of the

18 city where I used to spend my time. I didn't see any soldiers shooting up

19 there. There was UNPROFOR in the centre of the town and we, the

20 civilians. However, how many of them were there along these dividing

21 lines or front lines, I wouldn't be able to say.

22 Q. In any case, this period was a bit quieter than others, as you

23 said. You said there was a truce.

24 A. Yes, a truce was in force, but one never knew what the other side,

25 I must say the Serbian side, would do. We sometimes pushed our luck. We

Page 1638

1 didn't know when they would open fire. They did not observe the truce.

2 And it was just up to our luck whether, when we go out, we would come back

3 alive.

4 Q. But, Madam Witness, you don't know for sure whether or not the

5 other warring faction respected that truce, do you?

6 A. I honestly don't know.

7 Q. I would like now to show you a document.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please help the

9 witness.

10 Well, first of all, I would like to keep the photograph or the map

11 on the screen, and I would like a number for that particular document,

12 Mr. Registrar.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D40, Your Honours.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Before we move on to this next

16 document, I would like to ask another question.

17 Q. You talked about what happened in your company and how it was

18 decided whether or not trams would run, or not. Who decided? Was it your

19 supervisor, your manager? Can you give us some more explanation about how

20 things were done or decided?

21 A. Both the management and the dispatchers, but I guess they were

22 receiving their instructions from a higher level, from the Minister of the

23 Interior perhaps. Based on these instructions, or, rather, approval, they

24 conveyed to us instructions to go out because it was sort of safe. But

25 you never knew how safe it was, actually.

Page 1639

1 Q. But you personally received guide-lines from your direct

2 supervisor, or how was it done in practical terms? Would you go to work?

3 And then how did you learn whether the trams were going to run or not?

4 A. Just slowly. I will first answer your first question. You asked

5 me if I went to work. We all went to work everyday, gathered together in

6 the morning, and then we would know whether it was safe or not. Whether

7 it was the manager or whoever that had received instructions, we did come

8 everyday and we sat there in the depot waiting for permission to leave and

9 go out.

10 I just forgot what your second question was.

11 Q. That was my question, precisely. Thank you for this answer.

12 Now, regarding the 27th of February, what time did you go to work?

13 A. We already had a schedule because a truce had been signed. I was

14 in the morning shift on that day, so around 5.00 a.m. The morning shift

15 normally went from 5.00 a.m. until 1.00 p.m.

16 Q. And on which line were you assigned that day, for that morning

17 shift?

18 A. Well, there was only one line. We just drove from the depot to

19 Bascarsija. Now there's tram number 2, number 3, et cetera. There was

20 only a single line from Bascarsija and back, and there were no others

21 going to Ilidza.

22 Q. Here we heard a lot about the depot, and even I didn't ask where

23 precisely this depot was.

24 A. At Alipasin Most there was a big depot and our head office. Would

25 you like me to show it to you, approximately, if I can find it? That's

Page 1640

1 one stop after Otoka. I don't know how to explain. And the name of the

2 stop is GRAS.

3 Q. We'll see with another witness, but it's Alipasin Most. The

4 accident happened around noon or 12.15, and you said that you'd already

5 been on the tram for a while. Was this situation normal before?

6 A. It was peaceful throughout. I drove on. I was nearing the end of

7 my shift. It was just towards the end of my shift, and I was supposed to

8 be handing over soon after.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my assistant to show

11 document 428, a 65 ter document. Second page, please.

12 Q. Madam Witness, can you read English?

13 A. Just a little.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's see the first page of that

15 document. Could we have a close-up of this first page.

16 Q. Madam Witness, this is a report. You mentioned UNPROFOR. You

17 said that UNPROFOR was there, and in fact they were very close to where

18 the accident took place; is that correct?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. A moment ago, Madam Witness, when we had this discussion, you said

21 you didn't know if they were ABiH units, but you did say that they were

22 UNPROFOR units. Do you remember some 15 minutes ago we discussed that

23 topic?

24 A. I remember what I said. I tried to explain a while ago that in

25 that section of Marindvor there were several UNPROFOR vehicles. They were

Page 1641

1 usually parked there. I'm not saying they had any kind of headquarters

2 there. They would just park there and they would take turns.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Every day UNPROFOR reported about the

4 situation in Sarajevo. We have this report on what happened on April 27,

5 1995. This report was issued at half past 11.00 in the evening, after the

6 incident occurred.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at the

8 picture. Can we see it on the screen, please, the cover page of the

9 report.

10 Q. In this report your tram is mentioned.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] With the interpreters' assistance,

12 there is a sentence where it's indicated that four people were wounded on

13 the tram in Sarajevo. We can see it on the screen where the number 4

14 appears.

15 Let's now move on to page 2 of that document. There's a paragraph

16 entitled "Faction Activity." Here, there are a few words about the

17 Sarajevo sector, or area. Thank you, yes.

18 Here you'll see number 8 in the paragraph. Once again, with the

19 interpreters' assistance, please read what's written from number 8

20 onwards, because I don't want to translate myself.

21 So with the interpreters' assistance, Your Honour, could we ask

22 the interpreters to translate that particular sentence for the witness.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Does counsel want this read out in English?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The sentence beginning "It..."?

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

Page 1642

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The sentence beginning "It..." would you

2 please translate that.

3 THE INTERPRETER: "Eight times SA rounds were fired at a tram near

4 the Holiday Inn (BP 910593) injuring four (not confirmed) people."

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We do have a B/C/S translation, so we can provide

6 the witness with that.

7 Have you read it, Witness?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, she has read it.

10 What's the question now? We do need to make some progress,

11 Ms. Isailovic.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Madam Witness, could this reference relate to your tram?

14 A. Based on this, somehow it doesn't strike me as my tram, because

15 here it says that -- just a second, please. There was something here that

16 I wasn't quite clear about. It says a fire-fight between both factions

17 occurred at the same time near the Holiday Inn hotel. The Holiday Inn is

18 further up. Four injured from the Vrbanja bridge. Can't be. Vrbanja is

19 over there and the Holiday Inn and my incident was further down near the

20 Marshal Tito barracks. I'm not sure how they put this together.

21 Q. According to you, this wouldn't be your tram, then.

22 A. That's right. It can't possibly be my tram. This is a different

23 thing altogether there. This is the Holiday Inn. Unless they see this as

24 a single section and they call it the Holiday Inn. But this seems to be a

25 reference to a different incident, and I have no idea what they're

Page 1643

1 referring to here. I can't say whether this is true or not, but this is

2 certainly not what happened to me. I know what happened to me, and this

3 is not it.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What happened near the Holiday Inn?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened there.

6 On that day, the only thing that happened was my incident. But before

7 that time there were many people who were getting hurt all the time near

8 the Holiday Inn, which was known to be a dangerous area.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: But did your incident happen near the Holiday

10 Inn?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, quite near. This could

12 be a reference to my incident, if that's what they choose to call it. But

13 if you want accurate information on what happened and where, then this

14 can't be it. For example, they say that this occurred near the Holiday

15 Inn. That could be read as a reference to my incident.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the English text, I don't see the Holiday Inn

17 mentioned. Is it there? Yes, it's there.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I find confusing.

19 Because what it says is, "near the Holiday Inn." That's what I find

20 confusing. To some extent -- well, it is in the vicinity of the Holiday

21 Inn. That's if they see that entire area as one section, one neighbour,

22 Marindvor and Holiday Inn together. And it says that a fire-fight between

23 both factions occurred at the same time. I don't know if a fire-fight

24 actually occurred between two different factions. As far as I know, they,

25 the other side, were firing at us. That's all I know, so ...

Page 1644

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Madam Witness, you're a bit surprised but what is written here,

3 but maybe you could not see the shooting that was taking place towards the

4 Serb-held territory. You cannot be certain whether or not there were

5 shootings, but, however, you cannot exclude the possibility that there may

6 have been about an exchange of shooting between both warring factions.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second. You tend to put many question,

8 Ms. Isailovic, and the first one was "You're a bit surprised at what is

9 written here."

10 Are you surprised at what is written here?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not surprised. Why should I be

12 surprised? This could be a reference to my incident if they think that

13 they can refer to that as the Holiday Inn area, because sometimes the area

14 is referred to like that. But we Sarajevans know exactly the names of

15 each of the stops, so if you want to provide a more detailed explanation,

16 you're likely to tell them something along the lines of, "near Marindvor,

17 in the general Holiday Inn area."

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 Yes, next question, and put the questions individually.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You would agree with me that it may have been an exchange of fires

22 between the two warring factions.

23 A. I cannot possibly agree because there is simply no way for me to

24 know.

25 Q. You're quite sure that the opposite is true?

Page 1645

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the answer to that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Now, could we have page 9 of this document, please, on the

5 screen. Could you enlarge this a little bit, please, the fifth paragraph

6 in particular. Not all the paragraphs are numbered. The last sentence,

7 it reads as follows. There are a number of abbreviations in there. If

8 the interpreters can assist us, please. At 8, mention is made of the

9 cease-fire. Could this sentence be translated, please, be translated into

10 B/C/S for the witness.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters don't know which sentence. The

12 usual practice is that somebody in the courtroom reads it out and then it

13 is interpreted.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the sentence that you --

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] The last sentence in the fifth

16 paragraph which starts with "The tram travelling between ..." and it's the

17 last sentence in that paragraph, which reads "EMG CF 8 has been attributed

18 to the BSA," and so on and so forth.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're waiting for that translation?

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This has been translated. I have

21 been reading this in English, so assume it has been translated into B/C/S.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is this document, Ms. Isailovic? What is

23 its source?

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have seen the

25 first page of this document. This is a report, a situation report, of the

Page 1646

1 26th of February, 1995. This is addressed to the UNPROFOR command in

2 Zagreb and was sent by the command or commander of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Can the screen go back to the sentence that

4 was just translated. And "MGCFV," how are we to know what that means?

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you like, we can

6 ask the question of Mr. Fraser who will be heard also. In light of the

7 document, "cease-fire violation," I think that's what it stands for. But

8 perhaps we can wait and put this question to this other witness who will

9 be called to testify.

10 This was my last question before offering this document as

11 evidence.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So I note we're going to have Mr. Fraser. But do

14 you know what "MG" means? You gave us "CFV" as "cease-fire violation."

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I wasn't smart enough to know what

16 it is, so maybe we can put the question to the witness when he comes.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: To the witness? How would she -- would she know?

18 I'm surprised.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness

20 Mr. Fraser.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I am setting this question aside

22 for Mr. Fraser.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, thank you, Ms. Isailovic.

24 Any re-examination, Ms. Marcus?

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

Page 1647

1 tender this document, please.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit the document. Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D41, Your Honours.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

5 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

6 Q. Madam Witness, two short last questions. When I was questioning

7 you earlier, you circled an area on both the map and the photograph which

8 you identified as the area you believe the shots came from. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Learned counsel from the Defence showed us a document describing

12 an incident where the origin of fire was the Vrbanja bridge and the red

13 building. Is the Vrbanja bridge and the red building included in the area

14 that you circled as origin of fire for your incident?

15 A. No. Vrbanja is further up, up the - what's it called? - what the

16 Defence said. Vrbanja is further up, and the area where the shots that

17 were fired at my tram came from is further down. That's Grbavica.

18 Vrbanja is a different thing altogether and Grbavica is something

19 completely different.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much further up? What is the distance that

21 Vrbanja is from the place where your incident took place?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult to be specific. If,

23 in this document, they believed -- they believed the Holiday Inn to be the

24 same thing as the Marshal Tito barracks, then maybe they might believe

25 that Vrbanja and Grbavica are the same thing, although in reality these

Page 1648

1 are two different areas, two different municipalities.


3 Q. Madam Witness, before the shots began at your tram, before you

4 heard the first shots, did you hear any shooting of any kind on that day?

5 A. No. It was really quite peaceful. I was happy that I was about

6 to get off work and hand over, so I heard nothing at all.

7 MS. MARCUS: No further questions, Your Honours.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you said Vrbanja is a different

10 municipality from the area in which your incident took place. I had asked

11 you to give an approximation of the distance between the two places. Can

12 you try to give us an idea of the distance between Vrbanja and the place

13 where your incident took place?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The distance is not really that

15 great. Vrbanja is sort of near Grbavica. There isn't that much of a

16 distance. It's on the same side. Vrbanja or Grbavica, both were under

17 the control of the Serb army. It was just before Marindvor and across the

18 river at Miljacka, and then over there everything was under their

19 control. Whether it was Vrbanja or Grbavica, it doesn't really make that

20 much of a difference.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 Now, Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank you for

23 giving it and you may now leave.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 1649

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness, Ms. Marcus.

2 MS. MARCUS: The Prosecution calls Witness 26, Alma Cehajic.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

10 And you may begin, Ms. Marcus

11 Examination by Ms. Marcus:

12 Q. Good morning.

13 A. [In English] Good morning to you, too.

14 Q. Could you please state your full name and your date of birth for

15 the Court.

16 A. [Interpretation] My name is Alma Mulosmanovic. I was born on the

17 24th of April, 1976, in Sarajevo. Did I skip anything?

18 Q. Madam Witness, can we just clarify your name. We have two

19 statements from you. Your 1996 statement has your surname as "Cehagic"

20 and your 2006 statement refers to you as "Cehajic-Mulosmanovic." Can you

21 please clarify for us what is your correct surname.

22 A. I got married in 2002 and I changed my last name to

23 Mulosmanovic. Before my last name was Cehajic. So in the first

24 statement, it should be J instead of G; it was Cehajic and not Cehagic.

25 Q. Thank you. How long have you lived in Sarajevo?

Page 1650

1 A. Since I was born. My parents were born there, too, as a matter of

2 fact.

3 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I note that we are approaching the

4 break time. This might be a good place to stop, but I leave it in your

5 hands.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll take the break now.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Ms. Marcus.

10 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.

11 Q. Madam Witness, did you give a statement to Tribunal investigators

12 on the 22nd of February, 1996?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. What language did you give that statement in, please?

15 A. Mainly in Bosnian, and some supplemental information was provided

16 in English.

17 Q. Did you re-read that statement before coming to court?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did you give another statement to Tribunal investigators on the

20 20th of March, 2006?

21 A. Yes, I did, but I'm not sure about the date. But, yes, I did give

22 a statement.

23 Q. What language did you give that statement in?

24 A. Also in Bosnian and in English as well.

25 Q. Did you re-read that statement before coming to court today?

Page 1651

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Is there anything that you would like to clarify or correct now

3 from either of your statements?

4 A. Nothing in particular, except that in the statement I said that I

5 went to see an optician and to my university classes and I also went to a

6 dentist's clinic.

7 MS. MARCUS: Could I request the court officer, please, to call up

8 65 ter number 2897, page 2.

9 Q. Madam Witness, in just a moment on your monitor you should see a

10 page of your statement which I believe is the line that you are referring

11 to, and so you could clarify for us what you'd like to change. Do you see

12 the document in front of you?

13 A. Yes, I do. But just give me a moment, please.

14 So that's second line from the top. I was on my way back from

15 being at school and the optician and the dentist.

16 Q. Thank you. With this addition that you just made now and with the

17 correction of your name that you just clarified for us before, would you

18 say that these two statements that you've given are a true and accurate

19 representation of what you told Tribunal investigators on the 22nd of

20 February, 1996, and the 20th of March, 2006?

21 A. Yes, they are true.

22 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would you give the

23 same answers?

24 A. Yes, I would.

25 MS. MARCUS: I would like to request that these two statements be

Page 1652

1 given exhibit numbers. They have already been admitted pursuant to Rule

2 92 ter.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, this will be done.

4 THE REGISTRAR: These will be admitted as Exhibit P178, the

5 statement of 22nd February, 1996; and Exhibit P179, the statement dated

6 20th March, 2006.

7 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. May I now request the court officer to

8 pull up 65 ter number 2872.

9 Q. While that is loading, Madam Witness, your evidence given in those

10 two statements relates to an incident in which a tram you were riding on

11 was fired upon. Can you tell the Court the date of that incident, please.

12 A. The 27th of February, 1995.

13 Q. From which part of town was the tram coming?

14 A. It was moving from the direction of Bascarsija.

15 Q. And in which direction was the tram heading?

16 A. It was heading to Cengic Vila, that is to say, towards the west.

17 Q. Where was the tram when the shooting began?

18 A. Approximately at the intersection where the museum and the Marshal

19 Tito barracks were. However, since the tram was moving, I cannot give you

20 the precise location. But this is more or less where it happened.

21 Q. Which direction were you facing while you were on the tram?

22 A. I was facing the Marshal Tito barracks.

23 Q. Were you standing or were you sitting?

24 A. I was standing.

25 Q. Do you remember from which direction the shots came?

Page 1653

1 A. The shots came from behind me.

2 Q. Can you tell the Court, what was at that location?

3 A. Behind me was the river Miljacka and the Grbavica and Vraca

4 neighbourhoods.

5 Q. Did the tram stop immediately when the shooting began, or did it

6 continue?

7 A. The tram continued until the first shelter, the next shelter.

8 Q. When you say "shelter," shelter from what, please?

9 A. Well, a shelter from these two neighbourhoods, Grbavica and Vraca,

10 if there was any possibility to find a cover. But we were safer behind

11 this building.

12 Q. Madam Witness, were you injured in this incident?

13 A. Yes, I was.

14 MS. MARCUS: Can we have the map zoomed a little bit, please.

15 Q. Madam Witness, do you see the map in front of you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you be able to mark on this map with an X the approximate

18 location where your tram was when the shooting began, if you remember?

19 A. Approximately this area here.

20 Q. And can you please draw a line along the path of the tram - you

21 said the tram continued a bit - until the place where you remember,

22 approximately, the tram stopping.

23 A. So, roughly speaking, this is where it stopped, by the police

24 station or these buildings. I think it's the faculty of natural sciences

25 and maths.

Page 1654

1 Q. Could you also indicate for the Court the approximate area where

2 you believe the shots were fired from. Perhaps you could circle that

3 area.

4 A. Maybe a little bit to the back, like this. Like this.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to have this map admitted, please.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted. And the basis for her

8 belief.

9 MS. MARCUS: Yes.

10 Q. Madam Witness, can you tell the Court, please, on what do you base

11 your belief that the shots were fired from the area you've just circled

12 for us?

13 A. First of all, I had an entry and exit wound in my arm, since I --

14 my back was turned. There was an entry wound and then an exit wound, and

15 I believe that had the shots come from nearby, we would have heard them.

16 Had they come from a closer area, it would have been louder.

17 Q. Do you know who was in control of the area that you've circled as

18 the area you believe the shots came from?

19 A. The Chetniks or, that is to say, the Serbian army.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be admitted as Exhibit P180, Your

21 Honours.

22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. I'd like to ask the court officer now,

23 please, to pull up 65 ter number 2914, and the court usher to please

24 assist the witness in marking the photo as well.

25 Q. Madam Witness, do you see the photo on the monitor in front of

Page 1655

1 you?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Would you be able to tell the Court from this photograph

4 approximately where the tram was when the first shots were fired on the

5 27th of February, 1995? Perhaps you could mark it with an X as you did on

6 the map.

7 A. Approximately this area near this intersection.

8 Q. Could you now please draw a line from that location along the path

9 the tram took until where it stopped, to your recollection.

10 A. This is where it stopped, more or less. I'm not sure whether it

11 went further on.

12 Q. Could you now please circle for the Court the area from which you

13 believe the shots came.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to tender this photograph, please.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, just one thing. Excuse

18 me. I didn't see this line very well which indicates the river. I just

19 wanted to encircle these high-rise buildings all together. Yes, here.

20 This is where the river is, and this -- that's it.

21 MS. MARCUS: Okay. And the record will indicate that the witness

22 intended also to circle the high-rise buildings in their entirety.

23 THE REGISTRAR: And this will be admitted as Exhibit P181, Your

24 Honours.

25 MS. MARCUS: Thank you very much to the court usher.

Page 1656

1 Q. Madam Witness, could you tell the Court, what kind of injury did

2 you sustain?

3 A. That was an entry/exit wound. That was a light injury. The

4 bullet passed through the muscle, slid down the bone and then exited.

5 Q. Can you indicate on your body for the Court, please, where the

6 entry wound was.

7 A. Approximately here.

8 MS. MARCUS: Could the record please indicate that the witness has

9 pointed to her left elbow, on the front side.

10 Q. And could you please indicate for the Court where the exit wound

11 was.

12 A. Approximately here.

13 MS. MARCUS: Could the record please indicate that the witness has

14 pointed further down on her elbow, on her lower arm.

15 Q. Did you see any soldiers on the tram on the day of the incident?

16 A. I don't remember seeing any of them.

17 Q. Did you see any ABiH soldiers anywhere around the tram on the day

18 of the incident?

19 A. I don't remember seeing them.

20 Q. Do you remember seeing any ABiH vehicles anywhere near the tram on

21 the day of the incident?

22 A. I don't remember seeing any of them.

23 Q. Do you remember any combat activity of any kind near the tram on

24 the day of the incident?

25 A. No, I don't remember.

Page 1657

1 Q. Madam Witness, you identified the location from where you believe

2 the shots came from as being under the control of the Serb army. Can you

3 explain how you know that?

4 A. Well, everybody knew that, most of all because of the expelled

5 population, so people testified to that.

6 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like on the 27th of February,

7 1995?

8 A. It was cloudy. There was no rain or snow, but it was cloudy. I

9 remember that because I had my umbrella with me.

10 Q. Was the tram crowded?

11 A. Yes, it was pretty crowded.

12 Q. Can you tell us what you were wearing on that way?

13 A. I was wearing a light purple jacket, blue jeans, Adidas tennis

14 shoes, and a green blouse and a green umbrella.

15 Q. Was the area that you were travelling through when the tram came

16 under fire, was it known to be a dangerous area?

17 A. Each area was dangerous, more or less. This particular area was

18 dangerous. Every intersection was dangerous.

19 Q. Why was this intersection known to be a dangerous area?

20 A. Because it was an open space and in good view.

21 Q. Can you clarify for the Court, "it was an open space and in good

22 view" of what?

23 A. Well, when I was travelling, you could see the high-rise

24 buildings, the Vraca hills where the Chetnik positions were, although

25 throughout the war any movement in any part of the town gave you an uneasy

Page 1658

1 feeling, because you felt to be a target always. I always felt uneasy

2 whenever I could see these positions. So these buildings at Grbavica were

3 well visible, as well as those at Vraca.

4 Q. Could you describe for the Court the shots that were fired on the

5 27th of February, 1995.

6 A. First, we heard several shots. As soon as they hit the trams, we

7 heard the first shots. We tried to lie down or to crouch. There was not

8 enough space for me, so I just bent down, and the other people who

9 couldn't find any space just lowered themselves on the steps of the tram.

10 Q. Can you describe what happened next.

11 A. These moments seemed to last very long because all the time, just

12 as all other passengers, I was just waiting to be hit. In that crouching

13 position I just prayed to God, because shots were heard hitting the tram,

14 that I wouldn't be hit in the spine or any such part that would leave me

15 paralysed. Then I felt that I was shot in the arm. After I disembarked

16 from the tram, I rolled up my sleeve and I saw that I had been wounded.

17 Q. Did you see anybody else injured on the tram on that day?

18 A. Not at this particular location, because I was right next to the

19 door and I got off immediately as the tram stopped. A car took me to the

20 first aid station, and another two persons were brought there as well, an

21 elderly man and an elderly woman.

22 Q. Madam Witness, how old were you when this incident occurred?

23 A. Eighteen, almost 19.

24 Q. How did this incident and your wartime experiences affect your

25 life?

Page 1659

1 A. This incident itself as well as the whole war and the suspense,

2 whether you were going to be shot or not, whether you would be injured

3 seriously or not, prevailed throughout the war. Wherever you were, moving

4 out or sitting in your home, we could here the shots passing by throughout

5 the war, including the shells. You could never know where they were going

6 to land. They just whizzed by, and as soon as it passed it was a kind of

7 relief. When I saw that I had sustained a slight injury, it was also a

8 relief. But the worst thing was the moment of fear, or the fear that

9 engulfed us throughout the war.

10 Later on and after the war, I am still very tense. Before the

11 war, not even as a child, I was not afraid of the thunder; however, after

12 the war, I was woken up one night but some blasts and I ran to hide behind

13 a cupboard. I don't know how long it lasted, until I eventually realised

14 that this was just thunder, and then I went back to bed. I also had fears

15 after the war while I was driving, which was not the case before the war.

16 MS. MARCUS: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have you been treated for this condition that you

18 have? Have you seen a doctor?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In physical terms, I was given

20 assistance at the first aid station. My wound was dressed and I received

21 an anti-tetanus shot.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I was talking about the, apparently,

23 psychological damage that you might have suffered. Your fear of the

24 thunder.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't seek help from

Page 1660

1 doctors. These fears kind of started to recede thanks to my faith in God.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam Witness. My name is

8 Branislava Isailovic. I'm an attorney-at-law, a member of the Paris Bar

9 Association.

10 I would like to ask you a few questions about the statements you

11 made to the Office of the Prosecution. You will remember those statements

12 because we discussed them a moment ago.

13 A. Please go ahead.

14 Q. We'll also talk about what you said a moment ago. You were shown

15 two photographs, i.e., a map showing the streets of Sarajevo and a

16 photograph. Although I can see this photograph on the screen - this is a

17 65 ter document, 2914 - I would like to discuss it with you further.

18 You will agree with me that this is the photograph that you were

19 shown a moment ago. You put some markings on that particular picture.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please could you help

21 the witness so that she can make some further drawings on the same

22 picture.

23 Q. A moment ago I think you made a mistake. You drew a circle which

24 was a bit bigger than you wanted. I would like to go back to this. Could

25 you please show us again the location where the shooting started, the

Page 1661

1 shooting against the tram. Could you please mark this location with an X.

2 A. I'm talking about this location, roughly speaking. The tram was

3 moving. You want me to put an X there; right?

4 Q. As far as you can recall, the tram stopped close, that is, before

5 the school of technology?

6 A. Do you mean it stopped before the shot came, or what? I don't

7 remember where it stopped before the shot came.

8 Q. The only thing you remember is the time when it happened. In your

9 statement, you say that you were facing the Marshal Tito barracks; is that

10 correct?

11 A. The Marshal Tito barracks covers a large area. This area here, it

12 appears to be empty, but actually that was part of the barracks. The

13 barracks stretches all the way beyond the borders of this photograph.

14 Probably the shooting started there and stopped there, simply because of

15 the fact that the barracks covers a rather large area. I don't think I

16 understood what your question was, really.

17 Q. Madam Witness, have a better look. Here you have a work site, so

18 to speak, you have an empty space just above the X or the little star that

19 you drew on the photograph. Would you agree with me that this is the

20 place where the Marshal Tito barracks was located?

21 A. Yes. That was destroyed and now it's being rebuilt.

22 Q. Let's assume that your tram was there at the cross. You indicate

23 in your statement of February the 24th, 1996 - and you confirm it in the

24 subsequent statement - you were facing the barracks, the Marshal Tito

25 barracks, as you were on the tram.

Page 1662

1 A. Yes, I was facing the barracks.

2 Q. Let me, therefore, repeat my question: When the shooting started,

3 you were still facing and you could see at that moment the Marshal Tito

4 barracks. We've discussed that particular event with other witnesses. My

5 aim, therefore, was just to determine where exactly the tram was when the

6 shooting started.

7 Now, the representative of the Office of the Prosecution asked you

8 a few questions about the shooting and she asked you to describe the

9 shooting, and you started by saying that there were a few shots and then

10 people knelt down in the tram. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it's true that we heard shots, and as soon as we did we tried

12 to take shelter.

13 Q. And what happened next? Did shooting continue?

14 A. Yes, there were several shots, and the shooting continued until we

15 reached our shelter. Later on, I can't remember whether the shooting

16 continued or not.

17 Q. According to you, did the first shots also hit the tram? Did you

18 hear a noise caused by a bullet hitting the tram?

19 A. Before I was wounded, you could hear bullets impacting against the

20 tram, blunt sounds.

21 Q. And when you heard those first shots, did you hear them hitting

22 the tram right away?

23 A. I think that there were bullets that were fired before, but I

24 can't be 100 per cent certain.

25 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to go back to the photograph that's

Page 1663

1 currently on the screen and where you've put this mark or star. Maybe we

2 could assign a number to that particular star - number 1, for instance -

3 to indicate where the shooting started for the tram. Let's put number 1

4 next to the X.

5 A. I'm not sure. I think it was behind the police station, but I'm

6 not 100 per cent certain. There are several buildings there. There was

7 another one over here that is quite like the other one, but you can't see

8 it in the photograph. I'm not certain which. Today both these buildings

9 belong to the police, I think.

10 Q. I didn't see exactly what you pointed at. Have you just pointed

11 at the work site?

12 A. I didn't show it now. I did say earlier -- well, roughly

13 speaking, that it was in this area. But I can't decide whether it was

14 behind this building or the other building that was very much like the

15 first one. It's all in the same area, but I can't be certain. I really

16 can't say. I can't put a number 1 there for you.

17 Q. So that everything is clear, the second mark indicates the

18 location where the tram took shelter; is that correct? To take shelter

19 from the shooting.

20 A. Roughly speaking. I'm not sure. I said roughly speaking. I

21 can't be certain.

22 Q. It's okay. Could you please put a little 1 just above the X,

23 indicating the location where you first heard the shooting. There's an X

24 or a star already on the picture. This is not really a cross. It looks

25 more like a star. So just above that, please put a 1, and then put a 2

Page 1664

1 next to the place where the tram took shelter, please.

2 A. Again, I'm telling you I'm not sure if it's this building or the

3 other one. There is one right behind. You can't see it in the

4 photograph. But it was in this area, roughly speaking. I'm not sure

5 about the other one, because they're very, very much alike.

6 Q. The photograph, for the transcript, and we know that you're not

7 100 per cent sure, but can you mark this with number 2. Could you draw a

8 number 2 above that spot, please.

9 Now, let me get back to this mistake you made a few moments ago.

10 This is something you remember, I'm sure. You drew a larger circle on the

11 photograph and then you rubbed it out, and you drew a line close to

12 Miljacka. Do you remember that?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Now, I'm going to put an inverted question to you. The part you

15 added on by mistake, between the route followed by the tram and Miljacka,

16 is that part of the territory which was controlled by the ABiH army?

17 A. Well, do you see the trees in this photograph? These keep you

18 from seeing the river or the area between the factions or parties.

19 There's some greenery here and I'm not sure if it's to the south, to the

20 west, or to the east. And there's is an alley there. It's probably to

21 the north, actually. This is, roughly speaking, where it is. The line

22 should be around here, where I drew this, where I drew the correction.

23 But the buildings are high and they hide the line. You can't see it in

24 the photograph because the buildings are in the way.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, the question which you are being asked

Page 1665

1 is whether the part that you added on by mistake, between the route

2 followed by the tram and Miljacka, whether that was part of the territory

3 controlled by the ABiH army. What's your answer to that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, there was a

5 small patch that was there, but the buildings are very high so that --

6 well, it all looks mixed up in this photograph, if you include the

7 buildings.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, you haven't answered the question.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This area? Yes, yes. It was under

10 the control of the BiH army.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now, let me get back to these trees that prevent you from seeing

13 properly. That's true. Are these evergreens, or what kind of trees are

14 they? Are they always green, do they always have leaves on them, or does

15 it depend on what time of the year we're talking about?

16 A. I don't know if it's mixed or not, but I think there are deciduous

17 trees there, too. I can't be certain. I'm no expert on that.

18 Q. Witness, you also talked about your life in Sarajevo. From what I

19 understand, according to your statements, between 1994 and after 1994 you

20 attended classes at the economic school in Sarajevo; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you moved about in town quite a lot at that time, didn't you?

23 A. Yes, at the time, back in 1994.

24 Q. And in 1995?

25 A. At the time I was wounded, that was vacation time and that was

Page 1666

1 exam time at university, too.

2 Q. And after that?

3 A. After what?

4 Q. After the 27th of February, 1995.

5 A. Well, I was moving about, yes. If I had known the war would take

6 ten days, I would have hidden myself and I wouldn't have left home. But

7 it wasn't safe inside the flat either. You had to go out eventually to

8 fetch things. Some people stayed inside and some people ventured outside;

9 it was just like that.

10 Q. And as far as the tram is concerned, in your statements you

11 indicate that it was very dangerous; nonetheless, you did get on the tram.

12 A. It was dangerous all over the place. One of my friends died on

13 her balcony which had a concrete wall just in front. So every place in

14 town was dangerous. Nowhere was safe.

15 Q. So can we agree that the war -- that there was an awful war being

16 waged in Sarajevo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And can we agree that there were two warring factions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, if we go back to what you said about the shots a while ago,

21 you said that the first shots, according to you, did not hit the tram. Do

22 you think that these shots came from the territory controlled by the ABiH

23 army?

24 A. I said I wasn't 100 per cent certain. I don't think they came

25 from there. It was even the same sort of sound when the bullets were

Page 1667

1 fired. There was no change at all to the sound, not in terms of the

2 distance. This was several moments before the tram was hit; therefore,

3 it's very difficult to determine. The tram was moving and the time lag

4 between the two was very short. There wasn't much fighting going on or

5 anything.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Firstly, I would like to tender

7 this photograph as evidence. I would like the registrar to give it an

8 exhibit number, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit D42, Your

11 Honours.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask my case

13 manager to display on the screen document number 428. This is document

14 number D41.

15 Q. Witness, I'm about to show you a document which is written in

16 English. Are you conversant in English?

17 A. I would like to have a translation. I do understand English, but

18 I'm unable to testify in English.

19 Q. Precisely. We will show you the first page of this document.

20 This is a report that was addressed to UNPROFOR command in Zagreb, dated

21 the 27th of February, 1995. This UNPROFOR report talks about the accident

22 your tramway had. I have already tendered this document.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I see that the Prosecutor is on

24 her feet. Maybe I should stop.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.

Page 1668

1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. This is maybe the

2 fourth time that learned counsel for the Defence has referred to these

3 incidents as an accident, and I would just like to clarify that that is

4 not the way that the witness described it in her testimony, what her

5 experiences were. She described it as an attack. So I would just like to

6 object to the use of the word "accident" in this case.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, perhaps she meant incident. She has not

8 described an accident.

9 So did you use the word accident?

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. In French I did use

11 the word "accident," but maybe I should be more careful. This event

12 occurred and had adverse consequences; this is what I meant.

13 In any case, we are talking about what happened so we can't

14 qualify the attack or the defence beforehand or the condition in which

15 this occurred. This happened --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're not to use the word "accident" because

17 it's confusing and the witness has not described an accident.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall abide by what

19 you have said.

20 Q. So this discusses the events that occurred on the 27th of

21 February, 1995. This is what we discussed a while ago. The tram was shot

22 at, and you yourself were a passenger on that tram. Is the date correct?

23 Do you agree with that date?

24 A. There's a whole code next to the date.

25 Q. This did happen on the 27th of February, 1995; is that right? The

Page 1669

1 incident occurred on the 27th of February, 1995.

2 A. Yes, but I don't know where I'm supposed to see the date. There

3 are so many figures here. There is the date, "D27," the code "23308,"

4 February 25th, if that's what you mean. That's probably it, right next to

5 that code over there. The whole thing is marked.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So if we scroll the document up a

7 little bit. We had the B/C/S translation on the screen a while ago.

8 Unfortunately, we've been unable to find it. And I would like to ask our

9 interpreters to translate the sentence that starts with "Shooting in

10 Sarajevo, tram number 4," I believe.

11 Q. Witness, you have a translated version of this document in front

12 of you now. This document is in B/C/S.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "Four injured people on the tramway," I mentioned in this

15 document, these people were shot at on the tram in Sarajevo.

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Can you tell me exactly where I'm supposed to look?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.

19 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Could learned counsel please just indicate

20 exactly what page the witness is looking at, exactly which line, et

21 cetera, if possible.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is on the first page of the

23 document, i.e., where everything is indicated.

24 Q. The UNPROFOR acronym is on there, and at the end I think it

25 says "Message."

Page 1670

1 A. Page 1. Which line?

2 Q. At the bottom of the page.

3 A. That's page 3 in my copy. "Four injured in tram shooting."

4 Q. This document and this UNPROFOR report, could it pertain to this

5 incident in which you were injured, Witness?

6 A. Quite possible. I'm not sure if this report covers that whole day

7 or not, but it's quite possible. I didn't write it myself.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Then if we move on to the second

9 page of the same document, I would like this to come up on the screen.

10 Q. I assume that in your translated version it starts with "Faction

11 Activity." You can read -- there's letter A and it says "Sector

12 Sarajevo." Do you see that? And then there is a sentence which starts

13 off with the number 8. Could you read this in your own language, please.

14 A. Sorry, what exactly did you say? How does it begin?

15 Q. It says, "Eight times ..."

16 A. I have: "Eight times SA rounds were fired at a tram near the ..."

17 Q. Yes, that's it. Could you go on reading, please.

18 A. "Eight times SA rounds were fired at a tram --" I'm sorry.

19 "Eight times SA rounds were fired at a tram near the Holiday Inn

20 (BP 910593) injuring four people (not confirmed). The origin is assessed

21 as being in the Vrbanja bridge/red building area, where a fire-fight

22 between both factions occurred at the same time."

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.

24 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Mr. President.

25 This document is a very large document and the incident is

Page 1671

1 described in three different places in this document - on page 2, on page

2 9, and on page 23. The portion that learned counsel has selected to put

3 to the witness gives an unfair and inaccurate representation of the

4 entirety of the report in terms of the -- the other sections of the report

5 which clarify this incident.

6 So I'd like to object to one small portion of the description of

7 the incident in the report being put to the witness as an inaccurate

8 representation of what the document says.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can put that in re-examination, Ms. Marcus.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, just to make sure that I was

12 trying to get as close to the truth as possible, I was about to talk about

13 page 9 of this document, and this document, D41, is a 25-page document

14 which we have tendered. Am I entitled to use part of the document - and I

15 know that you do have the entire document - or have I violated the rules?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a matter for you. I mean, you put your

17 case. You can put the part of, but if you know that there are other parts

18 which relate to that incident, then, in my view, you should. But as I

19 told Ms. Marcus, she can raise it in re-examination.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, this is the last question I have concerning this document.

22 Do you an agree with what happened on that day? There was an exchange of

23 fire between the two warring factions in this area, Vrbanja bridge,

24 Vrbanja Most, and the red building, which is Metalka, and Grbavica.

25 A. I wasn't a witness to that, and I don't remember anything about

Page 1672

1 that.

2 Q. In your opinion, what the UNPROFOR report mentions is this

3 exchange of fire, and you were both a victim and witness to what happened.

4 A. I don't know anything about an exchange of fire. If they know

5 about it, then it's all right. But I'm telling you what I know and what I

6 remember.

7 Q. Thank you. One last question. A while ago you talked about this

8 tram, and you said you could see Grbavica, Vraca and you said that that

9 territory was to your left and to the left of the tramway. Is that true?

10 A. I didn't say that I could see it. I said, in general terms, that

11 I had a bad feeling whenever I was within their field of vision, and at

12 that moment I was in that field of vision but I was facing the barracks.

13 Q. Witness, I was trying to speak in general terms. So, as a rule,

14 if you follow the route of the tram which goes to Vraca and the direction

15 of Ilidza, for instance, or Alipasin Most, there is an entire territory

16 which is controlled by the Serbs, and you said that this was Grbavica and

17 Vraca; is that right?

18 A. Sarajevo was surrounded from all sides on the hills, wherever you

19 turned. But I felt more uneasy in this particular area.

20 Q. Is it because you knew that on other hilltops the ABiH army units

21 were positioned?

22 A. I don't understand your question.

23 Q. Witness, have you heard of Debelo Brdo?

24 A. Yes, I have. But I don't remember where the lines exactly there

25 were, nor do I know precisely where Debelo Brdo is.

Page 1673

1 Q. You don't know where Debelo Brdo is?

2 A. I don't know precisely.

3 Q. And do you know Zuc?

4 A. I know that it's somewhere to the north with respect to the tram

5 tracks, but how far exactly and what is the area that it covers, I don't

6 know.

7 Q. And what about Mojmilo? Do you know Mojmilo?

8 A. I know where the Mojmilo neighbourhood is, but I don't know which

9 part of the hill Mojmilo occupies. I cannot say exactly.

10 Q. I'm putting all these questions to you because you've just said

11 that on all the hilltops there were soldiers, and you've said in your

12 statement that these soldiers were Chetniks.

13 A. We knew -- everybody knew that Sarajevo was surrounded. Whether

14 this hill was closer or farther away from the town, I don't know. I don't

15 know the precise names of the hills and how they are arranged, how far

16 they stretch. But what I do know is that the whole of Sarajevo was

17 surrounded and it was under siege.

18 Q. Do you think that the hills all around Sarajevo were hills where

19 the Chetniks were? Is that what you've been told?

20 A. I cannot say for sure for all the hills. We were surrounded, but

21 where the positions were exactly, I don't know.

22 Q. Yes, but you were afraid. When you went past the hills, you were

23 afraid. Do you think there were Chetniks everywhere?

24 A. No, the hills were around. I moved around the town, not through

25 the hills. And I could see from the windows of my flat a part of the

Page 1674

1 Vraca hill, and I was afraid because a bullet entered my flat

2 approximately from that area and I was afraid to be there. As for the

3 other positions, I cannot say exactly where they were.

4 Q. Well, precisely above Mount Vraca there is Debelo Brdo. That you

5 know, don't you?

6 A. I know the name, but I don't remember any longer. I remember

7 Vraca and I know that it was dangerous there, but I cannot tell you

8 anything precisely about Debelo Brdo. And where the lines were exactly, I

9 cannot say. I know that while I was moving about I was exposed from all

10 directions. There were some buildings that offered cover from bullets.

11 But as for shells, shells could have landed anywhere, so the entire area

12 was dangerous. And I was afraid both in my house, which is in a

13 relatively better protected area -- I mean in my flat.

14 Q. And where exactly was your flat?

15 A. Branka Blazek Street. That is in new Sarajevo, the municipality

16 of Novo Sarajevo or new Sarajevo.

17 Q. What is that neighbourhood called, where that street lies?

18 Because there are several neighbourhoods in Sarajevo, like Bistrik,

19 Vratnik, Blace?

20 A. Malta, near the bakery.

21 Q. Witness, can we agree and say that there were a lot of shots, a

22 lot of fighting, between the two warring factions in Sarajevo?

23 A. Yes, in the entire Sarajevo.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness.

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This was my last question.

Page 1675


2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. Could I request the court officer to go

3 to page 9. I see that D41 is still displayed. If I could request page 9,

4 please.

5 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

6 Q. Madam Witness, do you have page 9 in the B/C/S version?

7 A. No.

8 MS. MARCUS: Would it be possible for to us get the B/C/S version

9 or is that --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a total of four pages.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a page 9 in the B/C/S version?

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand that in e-court the Prosecution only

14 provided a three- or four-page translation. So it's not available in

15 e-court.

16 MS. MARCUS: Okay.

17 Q. Madam Witness, I'm going to slowly read a few lines from this page

18 to you and, with the indulgence of the interpreters, we will translate

19 them into B/C/S for you.

20 "A tram travelling between BP 910593 and BP 907592 was fired at,

21 reportedly resulting in one confirmed civilian casualty and possibly three

22 other casualties. The confirmed casualty suffered a leg injury. The

23 estimated origin of fire was BP 907589. Tramway service ceased following

24 the incident. During the same time period both sides were involved in a

25 fire-fight 300 metres away in the area of the Vrbanja bridge at BP

Page 1676

1 912589."

2 Madam Witness, earlier you circled an area.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Will the Defence counsel kindly switch off the

4 microphone, please.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Defence counsel, please switch off your mic.


7 Q. Madam Witness, earlier you circled an area on both a map and a

8 photograph in which you say -- you believe was the origin of fire. Do you

9 recall doing that for us?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know whether the Vrbanja bridge is included in that circled

12 area?

13 A. It is nearby, but I'm not sure if I encircled it, too.

14 MS. MARCUS: Could I request the court officer now to go to page

15 23 --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can I just ask what you mean by "nearby"? Can

17 you give us an idea of the distance?


19 Q. Madam Witness, could you assist the Court, if you have an idea of

20 the distance between the Vrbanja bridge and the area where you were shot?

21 Could you assist, if you are able to?

22 A. Well, Vrbanja bridge separates a part of Grbavica, of the Grbavica

23 neighbourhood, and this is where it ends. I circled the Grbavica

24 neighbourhood. It is somewhat larger, and I said that I cannot give you a

25 precise indication. Vrbanja Most is a kind of a borderline of the

Page 1677

1 Grbavica neighbourhood.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're not able to give a distance, whether

3 it's 1 kilometre or 2 or 3.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a big distance, but I

5 honestly can't tell you an accurate distance.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.

7 MS. MARCUS: Could I possibly request the photo that we marked

8 earlier, that's 65 ter number 2894, to be called up, and maybe the witness

9 can indicate to us on the photograph if she knows where the Vrbanja bridge

10 is.

11 Q. Madam Witness, are you able to locate on this map the Vrbanja

12 bridge?

13 A. I think it's here.

14 Q. Could you please mark that location with a V for "Vrbanja,"

15 please.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. MARCUS: Could this photograph please be entered into

19 evidence.


21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P182, Your Honours.

22 MS. MARCUS: Could I now ask the court officer to return to D41

23 and proceed to page 23 in that document.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I have a B/C/S version of that page, of

Page 1678

1 page 23, for the witness.

2 Q. Madam Witness, I direct your attention, please, to paragraph (h)

3 of that page. Would you be able to read that paragraph for us, Madam

4 Witness, paragraph (h), that is.

5 A. "Acting upon information from LOA BH at the UNMO HQ that a tram

6 was shot at with three wounded civilians, UNMO patrol investigated alleged

7 sniper fire against a tram in Sarajevo city at 271220A February 1995. The

8 UNMO patrol confirmed that tram number 257, heading towards west, was hit

9 by nine SA at GR BP 910593. The UNMO patrol observed only one spot of

10 blood in the tram. The origin of fire was reported to be from south

11 direction. After visiting State Hospital, BP 917596, and Kosevo Hospital,

12 BP 923606, and also visiting local police stations, only one victim was

13 confirmed, one female civilian who was hit in the left leg and received a

14 fracture on the bone. During the UNMO patrol's visit to the hospital she

15 was under operation and could not be visited until tomorrow morning.

16 Allegations that one civilian car was hit by SA fire on the same place was

17 not confirmed."

18 Q. Madam Witness, are you -- I'm calling your attention to the line

19 that you read which says: "The origin of fire was reported to be from

20 south direction." Can you confirm that the area you circled as the origin

21 of fire is indeed from the south direction?

22 A. Yes, that's the south side.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's leading. You can't lead in

24 re-examination.

25 MS. MARCUS: Understood, Your Honour.

Page 1679

1 Q. Madam Witness, can you tell the Court, before the shooting began

2 on that day, did you hear any combat activity anywhere around the tram?

3 A. During that day, I heard what I confirmed, that shots were fired.

4 I went about town and I don't remember. And -- excuse me, can I continue?

5 It says here in the Sarajevo hospital, an elderly woman hit in the

6 thigh and then an elderly man hit in the shoulder were admitted in the

7 first aid station which was closest to the spot. The State Hospital was

8 also close, but there was this first aid station as well and that is where

9 I was taken.

10 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness.

11 MS. MARCUS: No further questions, Your Honours.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I put a question to the witness for

14 clarification. I would like the court officer to bring back the photo of

15 the spots, I think it's 65 ter number 2894. Is that possible?

16 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, if I could just assist. I think it's 2194,

17 I'm sorry.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry, I took it from -- the quotation from

19 yourself in the transcript.

20 In any case, I would like to see the aerial photo that has been

21 shown to us several times during this session. Thank you very much.

22 Do you see the picture?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question to you, Madam Witness, relates to the

25 question brought up by President Robinson just a while ago; namely,

Page 1680

1 relating to the strip of land north of the river up to the Tito barracks.

2 On the picture you see there are some buildings in that strip of land.

3 It's just north of the four high-rises on the other side of the river, the

4 northern side of the river. The President's question to you a while ago

5 was whether this strip of land was under BiH control, and you answered

6 that question in the affirmative.

7 A. As far as I know, beyond the river view from here, that is, to the

8 north, it was under the control of the BiH army.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Now, my question to you is, do you know or

10 did you observe any military presence in that little strip of land? Were

11 there any soldiers or military equipment in that area?

12 A. I don't remember. There was a police station there and there is

13 still one there, but I don't remember. I didn't pay attention.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence.

17 Thank you for giving it. You may now leave.

18 We'll take the break. We're adjourned.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, I understand there was some mix-up

23 with the witnesses.

24 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise, it was our mistake.

25 For various reasons having to do primarily with the health of a witness

Page 1681

1 but other reasons as well, we changed the order yesterday to switch, but

2 we neglected to inform everybody who needed to know, and we only realised

3 that we had neglected to do that when we were about to call the next

4 witness.

5 So we have now -- we apologise for that mix-up, for that

6 confusion. We've now reverted to the order that Your Honours expected and

7 that the Defence expected, so the next witness is Witness 54.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

9 MR. WHITING: There was something I needed to address with respect

10 to this witness before we begin.

11 The witness is going to be handled by Mr. Sachdeva, but there are

12 a couple of peculiar issues that I wanted to address with respect to this

13 witness before beginning. I refer to the witness by his number because he

14 has been granted protective measures.

15 This witness is -- actually, I need to go into private session for

16 this.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1682











11 Pages 1682-1683 redacted. Private session.















Page 1684

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. President, I

16 really have no reason to oppose the idea of starting with that witness.

17 I'm prepared to cross-examine the witness. But if the witness's condition

18 is really what the Prosecutor says it is, I wouldn't even mind having the

19 other witness on the stand now. I could deal with that, too. If the

20 witness is ill today and will feel better tomorrow, I wish him all the

21 health in the world. It is, however, because of a matter of principle

22 that it would be difficult for us to accept that change two minutes before

23 the start of trial. If the witness's health is too poor for him to

24 testify today, then how could he possibly testify tomorrow? I see no way

25 for him to do that.

Page 1685

1 If this is the sort of situation that we shall be facing in the

2 future - I think we will often be facing situations that are inconvenient,

3 to say the least - if the witness is in such a poor condition, it could be

4 someone else testifying. But I won't be offering my interpretation

5 today. I will be offering my true interpretation at another time before

6 this Chamber. But this is very much a matter of principle. I won't be

7 addressing that now. If you want me to address it, however, I can.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not clear to the Chamber,

10 did you say that you are in a position to cross-examine the witness who is

11 to testify now?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The one that was scheduled, yes,

13 we're prepared for that one, for the next one and another five. That's

14 not what I'm talking about. The schedule has been changed. The order of

15 appearance has been changed with next to no time left on the clock.

16 The one thing I have to tell you is this: This person appears to

17 be in poor health --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you or are not prepared to cross-examine

19 Witness 54 now? He is the witness who is now being brought by the

20 Prosecution at late notice.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's been a

22 misunderstanding. Witness 54 was the one scheduled to begin, and we were

23 prepared for that witness. Witness 144 was to be brought into the

24 courtroom in order to testify before this witness that is scheduled, and

25 that is what the problem is about, and that's why we oppose this.

Page 1686

1 And I can say this openly now: I think this was done for tactical

2 reasons, for purely tactical reasons, for that witness to be better

3 proofed for the chief, after everything that we have heard from the

4 previous witness.

5 It is for that reason that, as a matter of principle, I must

6 oppose this. I'm ready for Witness 144, and my learned friend has been

7 ready for Witness 54 for a couple of days now. So that's what I'm talking

8 about, Your Honours.

9 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, I'm sorry, I think I wasn't clear.

10 Witness 54 is a witness who everybody expected to testify that we had --

11 that was on our list for days. We had intended to make a change

12 yesterday. We didn't tell -- we forgot to tell you, so we're not going to

13 make that change. So we have Witness 54 here, prepared to testimony, the

14 witness that Mr. Tapuskovic is prepared -- we have gone back to the old

15 order that everybody understood was going to be the order for today.

16 And I have to say that I take some umbrage at the suggestion that

17 we are doing this for some underhanded tactical reasons. That's a

18 suggestion that really has no basis and is really uncalled for here. When

19 we realised the mistake that we made, we went and we quickly changed it

20 back to what they expected and we're prepared to proceed in that manner.

21 And now I think these suggestions are unfair, and it's a waste of time.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: So Mr. Tapuskovic would have been prepared to

23 cross-examine this witness from yesterday, Witness 54? Isn't that the

24 position? Because he was originally down to testify.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will do our best

Page 1687

1 to always be prepared for our next witness. I did not oppose that at

2 first, when a minute before the witness's appearance, the Prosecution said

3 there would be another witness. I, as chief counsel for the Defence, just

4 couldn't agree.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic. We'll hear Witness

6 54.

7 I want to say that the hearing which the Chamber scheduled for

8 tomorrow morning on the Prosecution's motion for judicial notice of

9 adjudicated facts will now take place on Monday morning, next Monday

10 morning, not tomorrow morning.

11 So we'll hear now the examination-in-chief of Witness 54. Let

12 Witness 54 be brought in.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting, I'm being told by the court deputy

15 that there's a request, which I thought would properly have come from you,

16 for this witness's son to be brought in to be beside him in light of his

17 condition. Are you aware of this?

18 MR. WHITING: No, Your Honour. I have not been involved in the

19 proofing, but Mr. Sachdeva just shook his head at me, which indicates to

20 me that we were not aware of it. His son is, of course, here and has been

21 with him. I have never faced this situation before of having a family

22 member in the courtroom. I don't see a problem with it myself. If Your

23 Honours don't have a problem ...

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any comments on this from the Defence?

Page 1688

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] None. None at all, Your Honour.

2 I think this might prove helpful, after all.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, it's unusual, but the Chamber will

4 allow it. But the son is not to sit immediately beside him. The son can

5 sit somewhere else in the court; perhaps to the right of where the bench

6 is. Maybe he will derive some comfort from sitting so close to you,

7 Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I love to keep everyone close to

9 me. My one concern is, if he's seated over there, then one of the cameras

10 might catch him and might deduce who the other person is who is taking the

11 stand and thereby identify a protected victim. That is my only concern.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a very good [Realtime transcript read in

13 error "God"] point.

14 MR. WHITING: I think the booth can be instructed not to show his

15 face. They choose what gets broadcast, so I think they can handle that.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I understand that has been communicated to

17 the booth.

18 Let the witness be brought in.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you're in good fortune. It is

21 reported that I said, "a very God point." Just a minor matter. It has

22 that I said "a very God point" instead of "a very good point."

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I certainly thank you for it,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness make the declaration. If

Page 1689

1 he prefers to sit making the declaration, then he can.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Excuse me, Mr. President.


4 MR. SACHDEVA: And good afternoon to you and to Your Honours. I

5 just want to ensure that we are in private session currently.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us go into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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Page 1690











11 Page 1690 redacted. Private session.















Page 1691

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1692











11 Pages 1692-1697 redacted.















Page 1698

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21 (redacted)

22 A. If you don't mind, I would like a short break, please.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll have a short break.

24 I see we are very near the time for adjournment, so I think we

25 might as well adjourn, it being 1.32.

Page 1699

1 We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day

4 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.