Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2262

1 Friday, 16 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cannata, you're to continue your examination.

7 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning to you,

8 Mr. President, good morning to you, Your Honours.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS W-82 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examination by Mr. Cannata:

12 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness.

13 A. Yes, good morning, Your Honours.

14 Q. How do you feel today?

15 A. A bit better than yesterday, but it's fine.

16 Q. So calm down, relax. We're here to assist you in any possible way

17 we can, okay?

18 I understand the witness.

19 Do you remember when did you arrive in The Hague?

20 A. On Friday.

21 Q. And do you remember that we met in my office on Sunday with a

22 language assistant?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And do you remember that at the very beginning of your meeting, I

25 asked a language assistant to read back to you two documents. Do you

Page 2263

1 remember that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you remember that those two documents contained the account

4 that you gave to OTP investigators about what happened on Bjelasnicka

5 Street when the A bomb landed on the 23rd of July 1995; do you remember

6 that?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 MR. CANNATA: May I please ask the court officer to call 65 ter

9 number 2903 and please not to be broadcasted outside the courtroom for the

10 witness being protected.

11 Q. Now, Madam Witness, relax. I'm not going to ask you to read this

12 document. Just listen to my words. I'm playing this document for the

13 benefit of the other people in courtroom, okay?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to page 2 of both English and B/C/S.

16 Q. Madam Witness, do you remember that you said that, and I'm

17 quoting.

18 MR. CANNATA: We're not in page 2.

19 Q. Okay. You said that, and I'm quoting for page 2, "The A bomb

20 landed on 23rd July 1995, and it was my first experience with this kind of

21 projectile."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you do you also remember, and I'm still on page 2, that, and I

24 quote, "I don't remember anything more about the sound. What I remember

25 very well are the people crying and shouting and at me being injured and

Page 2264

1 my right shoulder and chest and touching my body. I realised" --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'll carry on.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Hold on. I keep referring to what you said in this statement, so

6 please confirm if it's accurate or not.

7 So you said, and I quote: "I realised that my son was upstairs. I

8 cried his name, 'Azem, Azem.' I heard him saying, 'Mom, I'm alive, don't

9 worry.'"

10 Are we still on page two?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, can we please have -- is what I read to you a true and

13 accurate account of what you said to investigate of the OTP?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it the same story you will tell today if you were asked to

16 give an account of what happened on that day again?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness. Hold on one second.

19 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, I will tender this document into

20 evidence which is 65 ter number 2903, and I will tender it under seal

21 your, with your leave.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P228, under seal, Your Honour.


25 Q. Madam Witness, I bring you back to the second document that the

Page 2265

1 language assistant read back to you on Sunday.

2 MR. CANNATA: And, once again, I will ask the court officer to

3 publish the document but just don't be worried. Just pay attention to my

4 words, okay?

5 And for the court officer the document number is 65 ter number

6 2904 and, again, not to be broadcasted outside. Thanks.

7 Q. Madam Witness, do you remember that you said the following, and

8 I'm quoting from -- from page 2?

9 MR. CANNATA: Can we move to page 2 of both the English and the

10 B/C/S statement?

11 Q. Now, Madam Witness, do you remember that you said, and I quote, "I

12 was sitting with four other women."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Let me carry on. "All friends outside the house. We were

15 sitting having coffee and talking. My son, Azem, who at that stage was

16 aged 16 years was the only one inside the house. He was upstairs in his

17 room."

18 Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Is this a true and accurate account of what you said to

21 investigators of OTP in this document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you state the same today if asked to give an account of what

24 happened to you on that day?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2266

1 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness.

2 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I will tender this document into

3 evidence. The document is 65 ter 2904 and should go under seal. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

6 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P229, under seal, Your Honours.

8 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much. Mr. President, Your Honours, I

9 just note that the record that the medical certificate for Witness W-82 is

10 already in evidence as part of P106, which is -- which has been admitted

11 under seal on the 25th of January, 2007 as part of the Dr. Nakas medical

12 records. And for your reference, it's item 42 in that spreadsheet and

13 that concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

15 Ms. Isailovic.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

17 Mr. President.

18 First of all, I would like to tell you that Mr. Tapuskovic would

19 like to apologise for being absent. He asked me to tell you that he I may

20 appear in half an hour.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. I am Ms. Isailovic, lawyer from Paris. I'm going to ask you a few

25 questions that have to do with the statements you spoke about a moment ago

Page 2267

1 with the Prosecutor.

2 First of all, I would like to use a map. It is in the atlas by

3 the Prosecutor. It is map number 2. I believe that my colleague on the

4 other side is aware of this, aware that I'm going to use this. And I

5 shall ask for Madam Usher or Mr. Usher's help for the map to be put on the


7 Madam Witness, you can see this map on the screen. It is the same

8 map as the one you've just seen, the one you had in your hand. Please

9 tell me, in this map can you see Trnovo? Please say, yes or no.

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. We have this stick. Can you use this to show where Trnovo is?

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness. I'm reading your statement. I

14 understood that you were born in Trnovo; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in your prior statement, you mentioned being driven out of

17 Trnovo towards Bjelasnicka, which is a village; and then later on, towards

18 the -- the Sokolovic Kolonija; is that right?

19 A. On the 17th of July.

20 Q. In what year, please?

21 A. 1993.

22 Q. Now, can you confirm that Trnovo was part of the town of Sarajevo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The Sokolovic Kolonija, was it near Trnovo?

25 A. 30 -- 28.

Page 2268

1 Q. You mean 28 kilometres?

2 A. [No Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you. When you went from Trnovo towards, let's say, Hrasnica

4 or the Sokolovic Kolonija, do you remember which way you took to get

5 there?

6 A. Across Igman, but I'm not sure exactly.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cannata.

8 MR. CANNATA: Sorry. Mr. President, I refer you to page 7, line

9 5, the answer was not interpreted for the record. So we might go back and

10 ask maybe the same question, because we've lost the answer in the record.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me ask the witness.

12 Witness, counsel had asked you: "The Sokolovic Kolonija, was it

13 near to Trnovo," and you answered, "30, 28;" and then she said: "Do you

14 mean 28 kilometres?"

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, all right.

17 Proceed.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Madam Witness, did I understand your statement properly? During

20 the war, you were able to move between the Sokolovic Kolonija and Trnovo;

21 is that so?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then I must try to refresh your recollection. There may have been

24 a misunderstanding in your first statement provided on the 8th of March,

25 1997.

Page 2269

1 MS. ISAILOVIC [Interpretation] Can it be displayed because it's

2 been tendered as P228. 2903 on the 65 ter list.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cannata.

4 MR. CANNATA: Probably it's not necessary, but I wonder if we can

5 be sure that the witness name is not broadcasted outside, of course.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy will attend to that.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.

9 Q. At the very beginning, I'm going to read out in B/C/S for

10 everything to be clear. This is what you stated: "On the 8th of June,

11 1993, I left my home and went to my mother's village at Bjelasnicka to

12 help her in the chores. I took my children with me, and my husband was

13 left behind. Two days later we heard that Serbs were shelling the entire

14 area of Trnovo and occupying the entire area."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "On the 10th or 11th, I decided to go back to my home and take some

17 belongings I thought I might need. As I arrived at my house, the Serbs

18 were some two to three kilometres away from my village and were

19 advancing."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "I took some belongings from my house and persuaded my husband, who

22 was ill, to join me at my mother's house."

23 Do you remember this part of your statement?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. My question was as follows: When you left your home, you were

Page 2270

1 able to go back a few days later, and that was in 1993, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Madam Witness, can I therefore conclude that there was some

4 fighting between the Serb -- Bosnian Serb army and the ABiH, your army?

5 A. No. I --

6 Q. Because --

7 A. I only know about shelling. I know that there was shelling.

8 Q. Based on your recollection, can you tell us whether before 1993,

9 you were still living in Trnovo, and this territory was controlled, held

10 by your army, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cannata.

13 MR. CANNATA: I'm sorry, just for -- to be sure there is no such

14 "her army." The witness hasn't any army to my recollection, and I invite

15 the Defence counsel to be more precise on that. There is no such "her

16 army." The witness is a civilian.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's a technical point but she understood,

18 and I think we understand.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So I repeat: There was fighting between the two armies in 1993,

22 in June 1993, in Trnovo. Is that so?

23 A. No. I'm not going to talk about things that I don't know about.

24 Q. But you -- why did you leave Trnovo?

25 A. Yes, because I had to because of the shelling.

Page 2271

1 Q. And at that point in time, Madam, did you see ABiH soldiers around

2 Trnovo?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So you left first to Bjelasnicka, didn't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then you went to this Sokolovic Kolonija. When did you go

7 there?

8 A. Yes, on the 17th of July.

9 Q. You might be wrong about the date, because you talked about the

10 17th of June before. It's the 17th of June, isn't it?

11 A. July.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: One of the witness's

13 microphones is off.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I just wanted to call your attention --

16 A. I moved to Sokolovic on the 17th of July.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in the statement so there may

18 be a mistake. Do you want to can correct that now? Was it in July as you

19 know say?

20 A. It was a mistake. It was on the 17th of July.

21 Q. The reason why I'm asking you this is that, previously, you agreed

22 with the Prosecutor that everything that was in the statement was a true

23 reflection of what happened. So are there other things that should be

24 corrected?

25 A. No.

Page 2272

1 Q. Sorry. I hadn't finished my question, because here we have just

2 realised that there was something that you could not confirm. I mean the

3 date could not be confirmed by you. So in your view, are there other

4 things that need correcting that you're not sure about in your statements?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So we're going to use the statements again.

7 In the first statement, but also in the second statement, you

8 speak about the incident that took place on the 23rd of July, 1995, don't

9 you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you confirm today --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sorry. Just wait, Madam, until I finish with my question and then

14 you can answer.

15 So you can confirm that prior to the explosion you did not hear

16 anything else?

17 A. Nothing. Nothing.

18 Q. Thank you. And you were sitting with a few friends outside your

19 own house, weren't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you heard the explosion, after that you saw your two

22 friends fall?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Well, could you then explain to us how it happened.

25 A. At 6.30 p.m. on the 23rd, two rounds fell on that day. The first

Page 2273

1 one at 11.00, but it did not explode. At 6.30, I didn't hear it or feel

2 it. I only had this flash of light before my eyes, and then a sudden

3 haze. I tried to get up but could not right away.

4 I managed to stand up and I called out for my son Azem. I ran in

5 this way and then I felt sudden heat and blood seeping, and then two of my

6 neighbours took me into a car and to -- from there they took me to

7 Hrasnica to have my wounds treated.

8 Q. Madam Witness, at that time, did you see your two friends on the

9 ground. Unfortunately, they had died in the incident.

10 A. No, no. Absolutely.

11 Q. Earlier on you mentioned two explosions that occurred on that day

12 in the morning; do you remember that? Did you hear my question? Maybe

13 you didn't.

14 You mentioned earlier on two other explosions that took place on

15 the same day in the Sokolovic Kolonija in the morning?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you now tell me how you learned about the explosions on that

18 day?

19 A. We saw these motors [Realtime statement read in error "mortars"]

20 falling into a field because they did not fall into an inhabited area.

21 They fell on to some fields. This one, however, fell right into an

22 inhabited area. Had I known that it was coming, I would have sought

23 shelter.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, some

25 correction to be made to the transcript, the same thing yesterday with

Page 2274

1 motors and mortars. The witness said, "motors" and not "mortars." This

2 is line 24, paragraph 12.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just to be perfectly clear, Witness can you

4 tell us what you saw falling into the field?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Aerial bombs, but I referred to them

6 as "motors." But they did not detonate; they did not explode. They were

7 probably out of order. The one that landed at 6.30, I did not hear at

8 all. I only saw a flash of light and then a sudden haze, and I tried to

9 get up.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.

11 Ms. Isailovic, we have her evidence on the matter.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Madam Witness, so you, yourself, you saw all this on that morning?

14 A. Yes. I didn't go around asking other people who had seen it and

15 who hadn't. It was just me.

16 Q. So did you find out where the other shell fell at 11.00 in the

17 morning?

18 A. The shells fell into a field somewhere, somewhere or other. Two

19 fell on that day but didn't explode. I have said this to you about 100

20 times already, haven't I?

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you said that you saw your

22 own eyes, these two shells that had did not explode. Is that true?

23 A. It's like a motor had will fallen off, something like a motor,

24 very much like it. But it didn't employed or anything.

25 Q. Sorry, madam. My question was much more simple than that. Did

Page 2275

1 you, with your own eyes, see the two shells, the two bombs that fell in

2 the morning and did not explode?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I did go there. I saw it for myself. It was like a

4 motor. Nothing else. Those were motors. We had a laugh, actually. I

5 said, "Look, motors."

6 Q. Could you describe for me what sort of motors they were?

7 A. No, I can't. I can't. I wasn't into it.

8 Q. You say, Madam, that it looks like a motor, so my question is very

9 simple. What sort of motors are you thinking of now?

10 A. I absolutely forgot all about that. I can't remember what it

11 looked like. There is absolutely nothing I can tell you. I'm like

12 really -- it's all true about the air bomb and me leaving home and being

13 compelled to leave and the bomb landing.

14 It's all true. What I'm telling you is true, but there is

15 absolutely nothing else that I can tell you. There should be evidence.

16 There is evidence. I have shrapnel lodged inside my body. You want

17 pictures of that, perhaps? Don't press me on this, all right? There are

18 victims. One of my brothers was killed. My father died soon after. It's

19 all true.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

21 Ms. Isailovic, continue your questioning.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I understand very well, and I feel very sorry for you. But for

24 the moment, we were in a criminal proceedings and I have to defend the

25 rights of my client who is present here, the General Dragomir Milosevic,

Page 2276

1 and therefore I need more specifications. Could you tell me exactly the

2 place where the bomb fell, as it is said in your statement at 11.00 a.m.

3 Could you describe the place?

4 A. It was just past Kolonija, but I don't know specifically. Nobody

5 was interested in finding out. There were no victims there, nothing like

6 that. We were all just having a laugh, and I just said, "Look, motors,"

7 but nothing else, nothing further. I wasn't interested in that.

8 If I had ever known that it would come to this, I would have

9 written it all down. I know some things and I will be glad to share those

10 things with you, and that much is true, but nothing further.

11 Q. Madam Witness, therefore, we're talking now in your statement,

12 which you approved a while ago, so that's why I'm asking you and it's very

13 important. Could you tell me about this first bomb? Where was it more or

14 less? Was it close to your house?

15 A. No, I can't tell you. I can't. I simply can't. It is certain

16 that two fell and didn't explode, and that's it. That's as far as I can

17 say. There was no damage. No one was hurt. If I had known that a third

18 one was about to land, of course, I would have run.

19 Q. Madam Witness, who warned you this bomb in the morning had

20 fallen -- had landed?

21 A. It's not that somebody in particular said that. Hundreds of

22 people said it and then I left. There was this sort of motor with sort of

23 jags on it and I said, "Look, motors," and that was as far as it went.

24 Q. On this occasion, were you in a group, were you moving in a group

25 to go and see this motor which had fallen from the sky?

Page 2277

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. May I recap. You said a while ago that people had told you that

3 the bomb had landed, and after that you left on your own. Is that

4 accurate?

5 A. I saw this chain, a jagged chain, and I said, "Motors." I said

6 right away, "Motors." That is all I'm saying, and what I'm saying means

7 exactly what I'm saying, and that is about it. When something doesn't hit

8 you, it's none of your business, really, is it?

9 Q. Did I understand you, you saw a chain, a motor chain?

10 A. No.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Because this is on the transcript

12 as being pronounced, I heard, "zufcanik" in B/C/S, and this has been

13 translated into English by "chain."

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said, "Motor." That's what it was

15 for me. Motor, you know.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you understand, because you were on your own, did you

18 understand immediately that this was part of an air bomb?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And nobody else confirmed this for you?

21 A. No. I didn't ask. People were saying things and they said, "Run

22 to your homes. It will happen again," and I said, "Nothing". 3.00

23 nothing; 4.00, nothing; 6.30, nothing. I gathered some women around to

24 brew some coffee. At 6.30, I heard nothing and I only had this flash

25 before my eyes.

Page 2278

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. This morning, Madam Witness, there was another air bomb which did

4 not explode around 12.30?

5 A. Yes, 11.00.

6 Q. The first one was at 11.00?

7 A. [Previous translation continues] ... two.

8 Q. Therefore, in your statement, first, maybe we can see this again,

9 on the 8th of March, 1997. I can read --

10 A. Maybe it's me that keeps saying silly things. Maybe I've

11 forgotten stuff. What am I supposed to confirm?

12 Q. Could we agree that there were two bombs which didn't explode?

13 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

14 Q. And there was about one or two hours between the two, between the

15 two bombs?

16 A. Well, three. 11.00 and 2.00, that's three hours as far as I can

17 tell.

18 Q. Yes. In your statement, you mentioned 12.30, but I suppose it's

19 2.00. For this other bomb which fell, it said, at 2.00, how did you hear

20 about it, this other bomb?

21 A. Me, you mean? I mean, I heard from a 100 people. And, again, I

22 just went over there and I saw this motor, or whatever it was, with cogs

23 on it, you know like a chain with jags. I said to the doctor that those

24 two motors had fallen off. And if I had known that a third one was about

25 to land, I would have run.

Page 2279

1 So that's the truth, and I can be hardly be expected to remember

2 anything else. It has been a number of years, hasn't it? It's not

3 simple to remember all of though things. If I had known that I would be

4 here testifying one day, I would have written things down. It's impossible

5 to memorize everything. I know what happened, and I never --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we have heard you.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Madam Witness, when you say that hundreds of people who told me

9 this, could you explain to the Chamber, from a technical point of view,

10 how things happened? I'm not suggesting anything to you. Can I say that

11 you learned -- heard about that from hundreds of people who spoke to you

12 about it?

13 A. There were neighbours, there were people there and they were

14 saying an air bomb has landed but it hasn't exploded; and then I was off

15 to Hrasnica and off to the field, and there was this sort of motor thing

16 lying there that had fallen off. Two of them had landed but had not

17 exploded, but I didn't want to know about that anymore. No one was hurt;

18 it's as simple as that.

19 Q. This motor which you saw close to your house when you met --

20 A. No, no, no. No, not near my house. It was in the field. When I

21 was on my way to Hrasnica to see my mother, I went through a field and

22 that's where the two had landed. It was in that field behind Kolonija.

23 Q. I understand better. Therefore, you saw the two bombs together at

24 the same moment, or you went twice towards the field?

25 A. No, I went once. I was off, I was on my way to Hrasnica. I left

Page 2280

1 the road, I went into a field, and I saw this thing that was lying there.

2 It was like a motor. For the umpteenth time on that day, two of those

3 landed.

4 Q. I quite understand that there were two which fell, but how did you

5 yourself -- excuse me, Madam. How did you yourself understand that they

6 didn't fall together at the same moment? How did they fall? Could you

7 explain this? It's quite simple.

8 A. Well, one landed at 11.00 and the other landed at 2.00. Neither

9 exploded. There was a slight sound but it was like nothing at all. They

10 didn't explode. I was off to Hrasnica, I turned off the main road, and I

11 saw this thing that was very much like motor lying there. It must have

12 fallen off of something. I shared this with the other people there, and I

13 everybody laughed at me when I said, "Motor". Everybody had a good laugh

14 at my expense.

15 Q. Madam, how did you guess those were bombs which hadn't exploded in

16 the field?

17 A. It wasn't my conclusion; they didn't go off. They must have been

18 out of working order. Whoever dropped them should have known. Whoever

19 dropped them, it was a good thing that they actually dropped ones that

20 weren't working properly, wasn't it?

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, I can't follow you

22 quite. The two unexploded bombs which fell in the field, was it on the

23 same day as you were wounded, injured? Was it on the same day that you

24 were injured?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that same day.

Page 2281

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] On the 23rd of July.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And when the bombs fell in the

4 field, you were leaving to go to your mother's? Is that it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on my way to Hrasnica. I

6 turned off the road. I went there, I had a look, there was this small

7 motor, it had fallen right there. That's the extent of it, and then

8 everybody laughed at me. Nobody was hurt. Nobody want to the know about

9 this. You see, when nothing happens, nobody cares. When something

10 happens, well, then, it hit you, and then you know what it is like.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Therefore, on the same day of July,

12 you returned home after that? On the same day, did you after that go

13 home?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, no. I was at the hospital.

15 I was at the hospital for two day, three days. I went back home on the

16 third day.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. Madam Witness, this is an interesting question. After you left to

20 go to your mother's house, and on this occasion you saw these two

21 unexploded bombs, you went back to your home on the same day?

22 A. Yes, I went back home. I did some housework, I did some

23 gardening; and then at about 6.00 in the afternoon, I invited some ladies

24 over and I brewed coffee for them. If I had known what would happen, I

25 wouldn't have invited them. I wouldn't have called them to their deaths.

Page 2282

1 However, at about 6.30, I didn't hear it coming or anything. There was

2 just this flash before my eyes and then suddenly my vision was blurred. I

3 tried to stand up but I wasn't able to. There was no one with me. I

4 didn't see anyone around me.

5 I tried to stand up, tried to get back to my feet, but I couldn't;

6 yet again, I tried. I called for my son,"Azem, dear son," and he said,

7 "Mom, I'm alive. I am not wounded." I tried to run across to him and he

8 said, "Mom, some people have been wounded," and I said, "I have been

9 wounded it, too," and he said, "No, you haven't."

10 What was I supposed to do? Where was I supposed to go? I went

11 the other way, those two neighbours grabbed a hold of my arms, they put me

12 in car, they drove me to Kolonija. I got first aid there and then they

13 took my to Hrasnica and that is probably where I lost consciousness. They

14 cleaned my wounds, and I still have two piece bits shrapnel lodge inside

15 my body.

16 That is all I know. It's all true. What I'm telling you, it's

17 perfectly true. It's just that I forgot many things probably .

18 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness. You lived at Sokolovic Kolonija for how

19 long altogether?

20 A. Six, six years.

21 Q. Therefore, after you left your village close to Trnovo, you

22 left -- you lived for six years at Sokolovic Kolonija?

23 A. [No interpretation]

24 Q. Could we agree that Sokolovic Kolonija is close to Hrasnica?

25 A. Two kilometres, thereabouts, perhaps not even as much.

Page 2283

1 Q. In the opposite direction of Hrasnica, what is close to Sokolovic

2 Kolonija, on the one side Hrasnica and on the other side you have what do

3 you have?

4 A. Vojakovaci, but further off I don't know. Butmir, as well.

5 Butmir.

6 Q. Close to Butmir, was there the airport close to Butmir?

7 A. Well, it wasn't really close, but it's difficult for me to say.

8 Q. And when one goes through Hrasnica, what do you find after

9 Hrasnica?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know what there is. Igman, the forest?

11 Q. At that place, is there a road leading perhaps towards Trnovo?

12 A. Yes, yes. There is one like that. The road passes through

13 Vojakovaci and then from Ilidza and Lukavica, right now as we speak.

14 Q. You say "now." Was it different in 1993, 1994?

15 A. No, no. No. You didn't go to Trnovo.

16 Q. Did you sometimes see soldiers pass through Sokolovic Kolonija and

17 Hrasnica?

18 A. No. No, no one. Not those soldiers and not those others. I

19 never saw that. I did say that, didn't I? I didn't want to know about

20 those things. God forbid I should have seen anything like that. I never

21 saw a single rifle There was a war on, but I didn't see anything. I was

22 running. I was seeking shelter. I had things to do, housework. I would

23 go to my house and down to the cellar, and that is how I escaped and,

24 eventually, I was wounded. That's how hard I was running.

25 Q. Madam Witness, we've had here another witness, a soldier, an

Page 2284

1 officer, rather, of the United Nations, and here I refer to transcript

2 page 686 and 687, Lieutenant-Colonel Haga [as interpreted]. I'm saying

3 this for the Chamber and my colleague, so they may follow.

4 He said something which was completely opposed to what you said.

5 He thought there were a lot of soldiers who were going through Hrasnica to

6 join the road to Igman, which was being used by the soldiers. Do you

7 remember --

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... saw something, but I didn't

9 see either army. Please, don't ask me about that. I wasn't interested.

10 I didn't want to know about that. All I wanted to know about was my

11 children and whether they would make it, but that's all I cared. I can't

12 talk about things that I'm not certain about, can I?

13 Q. Madam, have you ever seen an air bomb?

14 A. No, no.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house that -- I might as well

17 tell you this --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Witness, counsel has concluded her

19 cross-examination.

20 Is there anything re-examination Mr. Cannata?

21 MR. CANNATA: No, no further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

23 Madam Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for giving

24 it, and you may now leave.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. I wish none of this

Page 2285

1 had happened.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness, please.

4 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, Mr. President, the next witness will

5 be called by Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, that is Mr. Sanjin Hasanefendic,

7 if he can be brought, Your Honours.

8 MR. CANNATA: And, Your Honours, if I can be excused.


10 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

18 And you may begin Ms. Edgerton.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

21 Q. Mr. Witness, could you state your name and date of birth for the

22 record, please?

23 A. My name is Sanjin Hasanefendic. I was born on the 21th of

24 January, 1975 in Sarajevo.

25 Q. Are you presently working?

Page 2286

1 A. Yes, I am employed.

2 Q. What is your job?

3 A. I am a shift leader in the security of OHR, the Office of the High

4 Representative in Sarajevo.

5 Q. And what was your job in 1994 and 1995?

6 A. For three years, I was employed in the Ministry of the Interior in

7 the Security Centre office in Sarajevo as a scene [Realtime transcript

8 read in error "screen"] of crime officer or technician?

9 Q. And from when to when, precisely, did you serve with the Security

10 Services Centre.

11 A. I worked in the Security Services Centre as a crime -- scene of

12 crime officer from the 1st of January 1993 to the 10th of September, 1997.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, could tell us, did you-- in order to function

14 as --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. I just wanted to be certain of what he

16 said. You worked in the Security Services Centre as a -- as what?

17 MS. EDGERTON: I see the transcript reads "screen of crime

18 officer" at line 11, page 25, and I understood the witness to say "scene

19 of crime officer."

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, witness, tell us exactly what you did?

21 Where you worked?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I worked from the 1st of January

23 1993 until the 10th of September, 1997 as what we call a crime technician

24 or scene of crime officer in the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. At that time, you would have been 17 or

Page 2287

1 18? 18.

2 Ask him about his training for me.

3 MS. EDGERTON: My next question, Your Honour, you anticipate me.

4 Q. Did you receive any specialist training in forensic techniques to

5 be able to function as a scene of crime officer?

6 A. Yes, I had to make a small correction. I did get training in

7 September 1993 when I completed a forensic course in Sarajevo, which

8 enabled me to work as a scene of crime officer.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long was that course?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a specialized training

11 lasting a month, where we read a course in several crime related and

12 tactical subjects that ended in an exam, which enabled us to receive the

13 title of scene of crime officers or forensic technicians.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And prior to that, what were you doing?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that, I was admitted into the

16 police, into the police force of the MUP, and I was waiting to get my

17 training.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What year was that or what month?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly from the 1st of January

20 1993, I was in the forensic technicians department, just like all my

21 colleagues, waiting to receive this training course, and you can see that

22 from the records. I was involved in some sort of training with my

23 colleagues until I received the specialized course in September.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And before January 1993, where were you or what

25 were you doing?

Page 2288

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before January 1993, I wasn't

2 employed anywhere. I lived with my mother in Sarajevo, and I didn't have

3 a job.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did you complete your schooling?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean my schooling, or do you

6 mean any training that I received to become a forensic technician?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. Your -- your high school education, when

8 did you complete that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of the war in 1992,

10 I was in the third year of high school; and because of war-related

11 activities, my high school moved to the centre of the city where I

12 finished my high school in an accelerated course in 1993.


14 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: 1992.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In end of 1992.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

17 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.


19 Q. Now, following your training in forensic techniques, where were

20 you posted?

21 A. After the training, once we completed this forensic course, I was

22 first assigned to the Security Services Centre of Sarajevo, but that did

23 not last for long because there was a shortage of materiel and equipment.

24 There was a shortage of vehicles and fuel. Our chief of department,

25 together with the chief of the crime police of the Security Services

Page 2289

1 Centre of Sarajevo, decided to assign us to our own neighbourhoods where

2 we lived.

3 I lived in the neighbourhood of Novo Sarajevo; and as a resident

4 of that area, I was assigned to work there, as well as another one of my

5 colleagues who was in the same situation.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask that the map at number 02872 be put up

7 on the screen now, please.

8 Thank you. If we could zoom in a little bit on the central part

9 of the map that is correct would be helpful. I think that is probably

10 fine.

11 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, do you recognise the area you see depicted on

12 the map in front of you?

13 A. Yes, I recognise it. It's the area of the city of Sarajevo,

14 focussing on neighbourhoods Novo Sarajevo and Novi Grad.

15 Q. Could you, for the Trial Chamber's clarification, on this map

16 locate your police station and perhaps mark it, so we can have a better

17 idea of where you are stationed. You will need to use the marking tool

18 that is on the screen to the right of you.

19 A. Would it be possible to zoom in a bit?

20 My police station, where I was employed in that period, is located

21 here. What we see there is the Catholic church, right behind that

22 building.

23 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, the witness has indicated the

24 location of his police station with a small circle, immediately above the

25 writing, "Zmaj od Bosna".

Page 2290

1 Q. Again, to give us some guidance as to your area of responsibility

2 or the area of responsibility of your police station, could you generally

3 circle the neighbourhoods you covered; and as you do that, indicate those

4 neighbourhoods by name?

5 A. Of course, I can. It's not a problem. You would just have to

6 zoom out a bit, because this area shown here is only one part of the Novo

7 Sarajevo municipality that was covered by my police station.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Then, unfortunately, because of the e-court system,

9 we will have to have this marked as an exhibit and put a new clean map on

10 the screen for him to do that. So if I could have that marked as an

11 exhibit.


13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P230, Your Honours.

14 MS. EDGERTON: And then if you could bring up the clean map,

15 please. And I think it would be helpful if the area that is brought up on

16 the screen is moved a little bit to the left-hand side, because I see a

17 substantial portion of the old part of town rather than -- that's fine,

18 thank you.

19 Q. On that map that you see on the screen in front of you, then,

20 Mr. Hasanefendic, can you mark, delineate the area of responsibilities of

21 Novo Sarajevo police station?

22 A. The area covered by the police station was this, and we'll move

23 from the right-hand side. From the street next to the Marshal Tito

24 Barracks through Pofalici, Velesici, this whole area around the Hum hill;

25 then down towards Guca Potak, Cengic Vila, down this street, the main

Page 2291

1 street, and down towards Hrasno, all the way to Grbavica neighbourhood, if

2 I encircled it correctly. And Grbavica was then held by the Serb army.

3 Q. And again, some small marking, if I could ask you with a small

4 circle or an X to note where your police station is.

5 A. The police station of Novo Sarajevo was in the neighbourhood

6 called Novac Malta, down below the Catholic church at Dolac Malta.

7 Q. And the witness has indicated, again, a red X over the letters,

8 Zmaj od Bosna on this the map.

9 Could I have that marked as P231, please?


11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P231, Your Honours.


13 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanefendic, is this area that you have delineated a

14 densely populated area of Sarajevo?

15 A. Novo Sarajevo municipality, second to Novi Grad, is one of the

16 most densely populated areas in Sarajevo. As we can see on this map, 70

17 per cent of Novo Sarajevo are urban buildings; whereas, this second area,

18 Velesici and Pofalici, is mostly covered by private houses. In any case,

19 we can say that November Sarajevo is a very densely populated

20 municipality.

21 Q. Now, in the context of the particular situation in your area of

22 responsibility in 1994 and 1995, what types of cases did you cover?

23 A. As a scene of crime officer, my work was in crime detection, and

24 my job is similar to the job ever scene of crime officer in peacetime;

25 that is, looking for clues and evidence at the scene of a crime; and at

Page 2292

1 that time in 1994 and 1995, most of our work was exploring the scenes of

2 shelling in the town ever Sarajevo, because that constituted 70 per cent

3 of our work; whereas, only 30 per cent was ordinary crime, if I can call

4 it that; break-ins, robberies, theft, et cetera.

5 Q. And if I could just -- since you have mentioned proportions and

6 percentages, what proportion of your investigations were for sniping

7 crime, if any?

8 A. As I said, most of our work was at shelling scenes and sniping

9 scenes. In that period, I think I attended about 200 scenes of explosions

10 of shells, and perhaps 50 scenes of sniping incidents. Maybe there would

11 have been more investigations of sniping incidents if it were not for the

12 fact that sometimes the conditions simply did not allow to us attend the

13 scene. And the reason it was impossible was that we could not approach

14 the spot because the snipers continued to target them.

15 Q. If I could just stop you there and perhaps invite you to speak a

16 little bit more slowly for everyone's benefit, including my own. If we

17 could go back, you've talked about investigating about 200 scenes of

18 explosion of shells and perhaps about 50 sniping incidents. But what I

19 would like to know is in the cases of shelling and sniping that you

20 investigated, what were your tasks as a forensic technician?

21 A. My job, as a forensic technician and as a scene of crime officer

22 on the scene of a crime, was to find all the possible evidence important

23 to the investigation, to photograph it, and make a sketch of the crime

24 scene. When I finish all that and when I finish protecting the evidence,

25 I draw up my forensic report; and if I have found any clues or evidence

Page 2293

1 important to the investigation, I send them for expertise with my request

2 for expertise attached, of course.

3 Q. So if the event you secured things like spent bullets, casings,

4 fragments, or shells, those, according to what you have just said, would

5 be sent for some kind of expertise. What do you mean by "expertise"?

6 A. In our profession, there is a department which was called Criminal

7 Forensics of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that department employs

8 professionals specialising in various kinds of forensic analysis. It is

9 to them that we sent the evidence found on the scenes, so that they can

10 establish what kind of projectile it was, what calibre the projectile was,

11 and that is it. So those experts are people who make the final analysis

12 of all of the evidence in a laboratory.

13 Q. Now, if you were to respond to -- or to attend to an on-site

14 investigation, would you attend independently and alone, or were you be

15 present there as part of some kind of team?

16 A. In standard police procedure, at every on-site investigation, a

17 team is formed called the on-site investigation team. That team is headed

18 by the person who makes the record of the on-site investigation, and

19 that's the investigating judge; he is in charge. Another person also

20 present all the time is the chief of the police station. In my case, it

21 was the chief of the police station of Novo Sarajevo. Number three, there

22 is a forensic technician or a scene of crime officer; that is myself. And

23 in addition, there was a shelling incident, there was a person from a bomb

24 squad present.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 2294

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm afraid that

2 this map might soon disappear from the screen, the map marked by the

3 witness. There might be another witness after him. I don't know if the

4 Prosecutor intends to tender it; but so that I don't have to don't have to

5 come back to that drawing --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: It has been tendered. It has -- it has been

7 tendered as an exhibit. Do you want it -- you want it to remain on the

8 screen?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I need it for cross-examination,

10 no, no.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, the technology, I believe, allows

12 that to happen.


14 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, now, in the case of shelling or sniping crime

15 scenes, how were the tasks divided among these team members that you've

16 talked about?

17 A. Well, the tasks were divided in the following way: The

18 investigating judge was the person in charge, who conducted the on-site

19 investigation, and made the record of the on-site investigation. The

20 criminal inspector from the police station conducts interviews with

21 eye-witnesses, if any, and takes down their statements. My job, as I said

22 earlier, was to collect all the evidence related to a certain incident or

23 crime, sketch them, photograph them, make a photo file, make my report,

24 and send the evidence for expertise.

25 In case an artillery projectile fell, the task of the person from

Page 2295

1 the bomb squad was to investigate, based on the evidence on the scene,

2 where the projectile had come from. In our case, if a shell was involved

3 causing multiple deaths, we would also invite a ballistics expert who also

4 worked to try to establish the direction from which the projectile came.

5 Q. So according to what you have just explained to us, it was the job

6 of representatives from the bomb squad and the ballistics expert to

7 establish direction of fire of shells or bullets. Is that -- is my

8 understanding of what you just explained correct?

9 A. Correct. You understand it perfectly. So people from the bomb

10 squad and ballistics experts were the only persons who were responsible

11 for establishing, determining the direction of fire, and that's what they

12 had to reflect in their report.

13 Q. Now -- thank you. Just to go back generally to the period of,

14 say, August 1994 to November 1995, could you tell us or do you recall what

15 percentage of shelling and sniping investigations you took part in

16 involved casualties?

17 A. Following our procedure, which is probably documented somewhere,

18 we only attended scenes of sniping incidents when a death was involved or

19 when somebody was wounded. So out of those 50 scenes of sniping incidents

20 that I attended in Novo Sarajevo, while I worked as a scene of crime

21 officer there, that number is correct. There were other incidents that

22 did not cause any deaths, and in that case we did not attend the scenes.

23 Q. What percentage of shelling investigations did you take part --

24 that you took part in involved casualties?

25 A. The percentage of on-site investigations of incidents involving

Page 2296

1 deaths or wounding was around 70 per cent.

2 Q. Now, do you recall any month or any period of time between August

3 of 1994 and November of 1995 in which there were more shelling

4 investigations than, let's say, was normal. Any particularly busy period

5 that stands out in your mind.

6 A. I remember perfectly clearly that the period in which we performed

7 the greatest number of investigations of shelling and sniping incidents

8 was the summer of 1995, so from the beginning of June all the way up to

9 the 15th of September, 1995.

10 Q. Now, could I ask you the same question with respect to sniping.

11 A. As for sniping, in my opinion, and from the number of on-site

12 investigations, those incidents never receded in number throughout the

13 period when I was employed. The sniping activity was continuous. You

14 couldn't say whether there were more in 1994 or 1995, because it was

15 constant.

16 Q. Now, of the investigations you conducted during this 1994/1995

17 period, do you recall any in which you observed the victims to have been

18 injured as a consequence of their involvement in military activity?

19 A. I don't recall. There is not a single such case in my career.

20 Q. Of those same investigations of shelling and sniping, do you

21 recall any in which you saw evidence or came to the conclusion or that a

22 member of your team came to the conclusion that a death or injury was

23 caused by someone shooting from Bosnian-held territory?

24 A. It never happened to me to attend a scene as part of a team where

25 we ever had a discussion amongst us where somebody would be convinced that

Page 2297

1 fire had come from the Bosnian-held territory.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, it is time for the break, so we'll

3 adjourn.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, I could like to draw your attention to the

9 photograph which should appear on the screen in front of you; do you see

10 that?

11 A. I do, yes.

12 Q. That bears the number, for the record, 2956.

13 Do you recognise what this photograph depicts?

14 A. Yes, I do. This is a part of the Novo Sarajevo municipality.

15 Q. Now, can you indicate, again, with the marking tool that is beside

16 you, based on your experiences at the time, 1994 to 1995, particularly

17 dangerous areas where you were called most frequently to respond to

18 sniping incidents?

19 A. The most dangerous areas of sniping activities that we can see in

20 this photograph are primarily concentrated around large intersections and

21 across the bridges over the Miljacka, the Electroprivida Most.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, if I may. For the record, the cross the

23 furtherest to the left, and if you could mark that with a 1,

24 Mr. Hasanefendic, that would assist us greatly, is what the witness has

25 identified as the Electroprivida Most.

Page 2298

1 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the name of the

2 first bridge he marked.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that? Please repeat the name of the

4 first bridge that you marked.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. The first bridge I

6 marked with an X is the Dolac-Malta Bridge.

7 Can you please zoom in this photograph, because they are a bit

8 unclear to me, but I can safely mark the bridges. So number one is the

9 intersection at Dolac-Malta; number two the bridge and a large

10 intersection at Electroprivida, next an intersection and a bridge; number

11 three, the Bratstvo Jedinstvo Bridge, Brotherhood and Unity Bridge.

12 These were the primary and critical intersections in Sarajevo when

13 it comes to sniping. I also wish to note that the other area that was

14 under constant sniper fire was the Zmaja od Bosne Street, which was called

15 Vojvode Putnika Street at the time. This is the central street here,

16 stretching across most of the Novo Sarajevo municipality. I will mark it

17 with an arrow.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

19 A. I will mark it with an arrow, but can you please zoom in the

20 photograph a bit so that I could mark it accurately. You can -- you could

21 zoom in at an any point or at any side of the photograph.

22 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, technologically, we can't zoom in any further on

23 the photograph; and for the purposes of this exercise, if you feel you

24 mark this Zmaja od Bosne Street, that you talked about, accurately, even

25 at this distance, I would appreciate it. But please tell us if the

Page 2299

1 magnification interferes.

2 A. Very well. I can mark the Zmaja od Bosne Street, and I will mark

3 its central section with one arrow.

4 Q. Now along this street and at these intersections, were there any

5 anti-sniping measures or barriers that were erected?

6 A. Along all these intersection, I've marked with numbers 1, 2, and

7 3, which come under the Novo Sarajevo municipality, you would have the

8 Vrbanja bridge under number 4, in addition to that, and that is the

9 boundary between the Novo Sarajevo and the centre municipalities. There

10 were improvised barriers for the protection of residents against sniping.

11 These barriers were mostly made up of disused containers, such as

12 the one used for shipping goods aboard ships or possibly those used on

13 trailer tracks. And at one of these intersections here, there was an

14 improvised wall, makeshift wall, and canvas sheets which provided cover

15 for the residents to satisfactorily pass through these areas, and all

16 these --

17 Q. Thank you. If I just interrupt for a second and, again, remind

18 you not to speak quite so quickly. That would assist all of us, again,

19 including myself.

20 Before you go too much further, I would like to bring you back to

21 a couple of things that you mentioned already in your answer. You

22 described the Vrbanja bridge, saying you would mark it as number 4, but

23 you haven't. Could you do that for us, please.

24 A. There was the fourth bridge; but unfortunately because of the

25 resolution of the image, I can't make out where it is. It is to the

Page 2300

1 right, hence -- toward the centre of town, I believe that is it this one;

2 and the one coming after that one is the Skenderija bridge in downtown

3 Sarajevo. And here is the bridge that I marked with a cross in number 4.

4 Q. Now, another thing you mentioned in the describing anti-sniping

5 barriers at these intersection was a makeshift wall at one of these

6 intersections and canvas sheets that served as some kind of were

7 technician. Where was that, at which intersection?

8 A. The makeshift wall, which wasn't a wall made out of bricks but,

9 rather, of some concrete pylons, it was at the Hrasno bridge that I marked

10 as number 1.

11 Now, the Electroprivida bridge, number 2, and the Brotherhood and

12 Unity bridge, number three, they had a makeshift container-made covers.

13 At the bridge number 4, or to be precise at the intersection

14 beyond that bridge leading on to the Catholic church and Marindvor, this

15 is an area belonging to the centre municipality, there was also a

16 makeshift cover made of containers.

17 Q. Now, with respect to these covers and these containers that you

18 have described, could you tell us what side of the Zmaja od Bosne and of

19 the intersections if they laid on the north or the south side?

20 A. Let us start from the bridge number 1. At the very place where I

21 put this cross on the bridge, there were barriers made of the concrete

22 wall. Now at the bridges number 2 and 3, there were no covers or barriers

23 because this is where the line of defence ran. It was rather more upwards

24 toward the intersection that they were located. This was at the point

25 where the people were passing.

Page 2301

1 MS. EDGERTON: For the record, the witness has put a second X

2 above the number 2 to indicate protective barriers, and he's done the

3 same, put a second X above the exit point number 3 to indicate protective

4 barriers.

5 Q. One last point on this question. Just tell us what lies to the

6 south side of these intersections and barriers that you've indicated?

7 A. On the southern side, and I suppose that's toward the

8 neighbourhood of Grbavica, there was just open space there. There was

9 nothing there at the bridges 1, 2 and 3, because the barriers that were

10 there were they served as protection for the people moving along the Zmaja

11 od Bosne Street, to prevent snipers active from the area of Grbavica from

12 seeing the people passing there.

13 Q. Perhaps I should rephrase my question. Who controlled the

14 territory, or do you know who controlled the territory that lay to the

15 south of those intersections?

16 A. I do, and I will mark that.

17 The part of the territory to the south of these intersections and

18 running parallel to the line, that I am just marking here on the

19 photograph all the way to the end down there, was under the control of the

20 Serb army.

21 My apology, I stand corrected. The entire area beneath the

22 Zelesnica football stadium was under the control the Serb army. I'm not

23 quite sure about the accuracy of the line that I've drawn as the boundary,

24 but that general area was under the control of the Serb army.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Can I just ask, is he able to delete the line where

Page 2302

1 he corrected himself?

2 So, now, for the record, Mr. Hasanefendic has drawn a red line in

3 the bottom half the screen indicating the confrontation line, in that part

4 of Sarajevo.

5 Q. Now, to go back to my original line of questioning, which began

6 the story of these markings, could you also indicate on this same

7 photograph particularly dangerous areas where you were called most

8 frequently for shelling incidents? And I -- should you begin marking

9 anything, I think we're at number 5.

10 A. The most dangerous area visible in the photograph is the Trg Pere

11 Kosorica neighbourhood. It was called Pere Kosorica at the time; that's

12 number 5. In 1993, 1992, 1994, and 1995, it was practically impossible to

13 live in that area, as it was exposed to artillery and sniping fire more

14 than any other area in Sarajevo.

15 And now with numbers 6, 7, and 8, I will mark the areas that were

16 particularly exposed to sniping; namely, the area number 6, area number 7,

17 and area number 8.

18 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Hasanefendic. The transcript indicates that you're

19 marking with 6, 7, 8 areas exposed to sniping. Is that correct? Is that

20 what you mean to say?

21 A. Yes, that's what I wanted to say, and I absolutely stand by what

22 I'm saying, that the areas were exposed the most to sniping and, of

23 course --

24 Q. Sorry. And if you could make some pauses in your sentences,

25 Mr. Hasanefendic, I'm left at a lost because my question dealt with

Page 2303

1 shelling.

2 A. [In English] Okay.

3 [Interpretation] As far as shelling is concerned, the area number

4 5, that I marked, is the Heroes Square. Can you please delete numbers 6,

5 7, and 8. Let us go back to the areas exposed to shelling.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: But are you going to come to that, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON: In another way, yes, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I misunderstood the

10 question.

11 The areas exposed to shelling more frequently than others in Novo

12 Sarajevo municipality were area number 5, the Heroes Square; area number

13 6, Pofalici; and area number 7, which is at the -- beyond the top of the

14 photograph - we can't see it here - is the Velesici neighbourhood.

15 Therefore, number 7 should actually be beyond the point that I marked.

16 Those were areas mostly exposed to artillery, although all the

17 other areas of Novo Sarajevo municipality were under artillery fore.

18 Q. So the areas that you have designated with the numbers 5, 6, and

19 7, were they residential areas?

20 A. Of course, they were residential areas, all of them; 5, 6, and 7.

21 Q. Now, with respect to shelling, you have just indicated that even

22 though there were particularly dangerous area, the entire area of Novo

23 Sarajevo municipality had been subject to artillery fire; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct. The entire area of Novo Sarajevo was subject to

25 artillery fire.

Page 2304

1 Q. Now -- and to go back to sniping, you've indicated particularly

2 dangerous areas with respect to sniping incidents at numbers 1, 2, 3, and

3 4, but were those the only areas of Novo Sarajevo exposed to risk from

4 snipers?

5 A. The areas I marked with numbers 1 through 4 and number 5 were

6 particularly exposed to sniping more than others. There were, however,

7 other individual sniping incidents as well. But all of it took place in

8 the vicinity of the Zmaja od Bosne Street, the one that I marked with an

9 arrow, simply because these streets afforded a good line of sight for

10 snipers.

11 The other part of the Novo Sarajevo municipality, such as Cengic

12 Vila neighbourhood; Dolac-Malta, which would be to the left here - you

13 can't see them on the photograph - they were somewhat spared that extent

14 of fire. At any rate, the most dangerous zone for sniping was -- or

15 rather, were zones 1 to 4. The residents of Sarajevo, who were moving

16 toward the centre of town, had to use another street which is today called

17 the Road of Life, which runs past Energoinvest building and the Marshal

18 Tito Barracks.

19 Q. Now, before we mark further, to come back to something that you've

20 raised earlier in your testimony, the area between what you've marked with

21 an arrow as being Zmaja od Bosne, and what you've marked with a red line

22 as being one part of the confrontation line which runs along the Miljacka

23 river, I'd like to ask you about that area. In 1994 and 1995, did you

24 ever have occasion, to your recollection, to respond to sniping incidents

25 in that area, the area south of Zmaja od Bosne and north of the Miljacka.

Page 2305

1 A. I had occasion to attend sniping scenes at intersections along

2 Zmaja od Bosne. I did not have the opportunity to attend scenes at the

3 bridges I marked with numbers 2 and 3, because -- simply because it was

4 impossible due to sniping and the confrontation line.

5 MS. EDGERTON: If we could this map marked as the next exhibit

6 please -- sorry, this photograph marked as the next exhibit.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admitted it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P232, Your Honours.

9 MS. EDGERTON: And if Mr. Registrar could call up ter 1448 at

10 pages 4 to 6.

11 Next, Your Honours, the witness will be talking about an

12 unscheduled incident.

13 Q. Now, on the left, we see a translation and do you recognise --

14 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Registrar, if we could scroll through pages 4

15 to 6.

16 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, if you could have a look at the document in your

17 language --

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the first of the six

21 unscheduled incidents. Can you please rule about whether the witness can

22 be examined about these incidents? All these incidents were not a part of

23 the schedule of the indictment.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

Page 2306

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, in its decision on the reduction

2 of the indictment on under 73 bis (F), the Chamber already ruled on this

3 matter and approved the leading of evidence on unscheduled incidents. So

4 this is not the time to debate that. We have already ruled on that.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not wish to debate on them,

6 but some of these incidents were not even in the original indictment.


8 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the Chamber is wondering whether

10 you are confusing this with the ruling which we made when the Prosecutor -

11 I think it was Mr. Sachdeva - attempted to lead evidence on a scheduled

12 incident which we had ruled should be dropped from the indictment. And we

13 said No, we will not allow to you lead evidence on a scheduled incident,

14 which the Chamber had ruled should be dropped from the indictment.

15 Now, that's an entirely different matter. In responding to the

16 Chamber's instructions to reduce the indictment, the Prosecutor dropped a

17 number of scheduled incidents; but also indicated that as was done in

18 Galic, it would be leading evidence on a number of unscheduled incidents,

19 the reason being that, in the Prosecution's view, that was necessary to

20 support its case, and the Chamber agreed.

21 But we will not allow the Prosecutor to lead evidence on scheduled

22 incidents which the Chamber ruled should be dropped from the indictment.

23 At any rate, we did not accede to Mr. Sachdeva's request that somehow that

24 scheduled incident by virtue of being dropped had become -- had been

25 transformed into no an unscheduled incident and, therefore, evidence could

Page 2307

1 be lead in relation to it.

2 I hope that clarifies the matter for you.

3 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.


5 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, during this discussion, have you had an

6 opportunity to review the pages that have appeared in your language on the

7 right-hand side of the monitor, or on the monitor in front of you?

8 A. Yes. I've looked at this.

9 Q. Do you recognise these documents?

10 A. Yes. This is a sketch of a crime scene where a shell had landed,

11 and I conducted this investigation.

12 Q. And the location of the crime scene is what, please?

13 A. The crime scene was at Paromlinska Street, just across the way

14 from the house number 3C in New Sarajevo municipality.

15 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask that we move to in the B/C/S version

16 page 5, please, and the English version should be the next page. Thank

17 you.

18 Q. Could you tell us -- could you explain the information that

19 appears on page 5 to the Chamber, please. What have you recorded here?

20 A. On this page, you have the key and you have a description of the

21 incidents. When you conduct a forensic analysis, the first thing you do

22 is you sketch the crime scene. One of the pages of the sketch contains a

23 key where we list any evidence found at the scene. At the -- in the

24 bottom half of the page, you have a description of the incident where an

25 incident is accurately described.

Page 2308

1 Q. Now, in the first paragraph of the incident, did you make a note

2 as to the calibre of weapon that was used at this crime scene, the calibre

3 of the shell?

4 A. Yes. This was a 120-millimetre projectile.

5 Q. All right. And going down to the last paragraph on this page, do

6 you make a reference to the origin -- the location of the origin of fire?

7 A. Yes. There is a reference to that. It says that it was

8 established at the crime scene that the projectile had come in the

9 direction of north-east in the area of Mrkovici.

10 Q. And are you aware of who controlled that area at this time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And who was that?

13 A. At the time, the Mrkovici area was under the control of the Serb

14 army.

15 Q. Could you describe the scene at the site of this shelling. What

16 was going on at the time of the impact?

17 A. The shell landed in Parmolinska Street. There was an unfinished

18 building there. It had been not been finished by the time the war began.

19 This was a new building under construction, and then the construction work

20 stopped. Civilians built up a makeshift market, a small market, where

21 they sold the supplies that could still be had in wartime circumstances

22 just to make ends meet.

23 When the shell landed, there were dozens, several dozens of

24 civilians moving about this small market that I described.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

Page 2309

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have these pages 4 to 6 of ter 1448 marked

3 as the next exhibit, please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P233, Your Honours.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could move to pages 7 to 21 of the same

7 ter number, 1448, and if I could ask Mr. Registrar to scroll slowly

8 through.

9 Q. While he is doing that, Mr. Hasanefendic, do you recognise what

10 appears on the screen in front of you?

11 A. Yes, I do. This is a photo file that I produced in relation to

12 this same investigation at Parmolinska 3A.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this marked as the next exhibit,

14 please.


16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P234, Your Honours.

17 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask for pages 22 to 25 of the same ter

18 number, 1448, to be displayed, please.

19 There should be a fragment of an English translation, or there may

20 be a complete English translation available, according to my records. The

21 translation was completed yesterday, Your Honours, and it may simply not

22 have been uploaded at this time. I'll undertake to provide Mr. Registrar

23 with a translation as soon as possible and at any case before the end of

24 today.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. In the mean time the interpreters

Page 2310

1 will --

2 Do you have wish to have any of it interpreted?

3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, there will be one paragraph which I

4 will ask the witness about. But perhaps if we could go back to page 22,

5 he could explain to the Trial Chamber what this document is.

6 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, do you recognise or can you tell us what the

7 document in front of you is?

8 A. I recognize the refreshing the document, and I can tell you what

9 it is. This is a report containing the results of an analysis of the

10 traces of an explosion of a projectile, which landed on the 30th of June,

11 1995 following shelling at Parmolinska Street. So it's a report.

12 Q. And earlier in your testimony, you described expert reports that

13 were generated by people in bomb squad or ballistics expertise as part of

14 the investigation of shelling or sniping. Is this one of those such

15 reports?

16 A. Yes, that is one of those.

17 MS. EDGERTON: And I note the translation in English is now

18 available and should appear on the left-hand side of Your Honours's

19 screen.

20 If we could go to the last paragraph on page 25 of the B/C/S

21 version, please. Sorry, could we move to page 24 then -- page 23. My

22 apologies to everyone.

23 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, could I just direction your attention to the

24 full paragraph that appears in front of you. And does the first heading,

25 if I could call it that, in this paragraph that begins with in your

Page 2311

1 language, "na asnovu" [phoen], record information as to the calibre of the

2 weapon?

3 A. Yes. There was information there indicating the calibre of the

4 weapon and the type of weapon. This is a light anti-personnel

5 120-millimetre shell, marked MK and 74 KB 9501, manufactured in the Krusik

6 factory in Valjevo, Serbia. It even gives the month of production which

7 is January 1995.

8 Q. And does the very last paragraph of this document also record the

9 conclusion as to the origin of fire?

10 A. The last paragraph provides a conclusion about the origin of fire.

11 It says the direction from which the projectile flew in was established at

12 the scene while conducting the on-site investigation. It's as being 50

13 degrees plus or minus 5 degrees, which corresponds to the area of Mrkovici

14 and Bijoskot [phoen], and temporarily occupied by the aggressor.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that marked as the next exhibit,

16 please, Your Honours.


18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P235, Your Honours.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Moving on then, and, Mr. Registrar, I will next be

20 referring to a document at ter number 1209, and moving on to another

21 unscheduled incident.

22 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, could I ask you, do you recall investigating a

23 shelling on Velesici on 18 July, 1995.

24 A. Yes, I do. I do recall the shelling at Velesici on the 18th of

25 July 1995, the reason being that I was the one that conducted an on-site

Page 2312

1 investigation there.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have pages 2 to 6 of this ter number,

3 please, and the translation that appears for everyone's benefit on the

4 left-hand side of the page is the translation of the pages 2 to 6.

5 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, can you tell us what this document is?

6 A. This document is an official report produced by the crime

7 inspector of the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo. This document is

8 tantamount to a record describing the on-site investigation. This

9 document is an official report about the circumstances of the on-site

10 investigation of the shelling of the Velesici neighbourhood.

11 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, how many shells fell on Velesici on this day?

12 A. That day we conducted four on-site investigations in a succession;

13 therefore, there were four shells in different areas within the Velesici

14 area, the radius being up to 100 metres.

15 Q. How many deaths were recorded as a result of this shelling?

16 A. Shelling left five persons dead, and several more persons were

17 slightly or seriously injured.

18 Q. Do you recall the relative age of those persons who were recorded

19 as being injured?

20 A. I do. I remember this on-site investigation as one of the most --

21 more difficult ones. Two of the persons were a father and son. The son

22 must have been about 40 and the father was older. There were some

23 middle-aged civilian there as well, and the fourth shell landed on a

24 refugee centre. There were children were playing in front of the

25 building, and all of them were wounded. So there were persons of -- from

Page 2313

1 different age groups involved in this incident who were injured or

2 killed..

3 Q. Now on pages 3, 4, and 5 of this document, does -- is Vrace

4 identified as the origin of fire for each shell?

5 A. Yes. The conclusion was established based on the evidence

6 available, and the conclusion was that the shell had been fired from the

7 Vrace area.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this marked as the next exhibit,

9 please, Your Honours.


11 THE REGISTRAR: As P236, Your Honours.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanefendic, did you also make a report on any of these

13 incidents in Velesici?

14 A. Yes. I made my forensic report in relation to all of the

15 incidents that occurred there.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Could I then ask Mr. Registrar to call up pages 10

17 and 11 of the same ter number, 1209.

18 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Hasanefendic?

19 A. Yes, I do. This is my forensic report. I produced this on the

20 spot at the site where the shell landed in Velesici at Mustafe Beknica

21 [phoen] Street number 44.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that marked as the next exhibit,

23 please.


25 THE REGISTRAR: As P238, Your Honours.

Page 2314

1 MS. EDGERTON: And could I move on to pages 21 to 23 of the same

2 ter number, please.

3 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, what is this document you see on the screen in

4 front of you?

5 A. This is an expert finding, an analysis of the evidence of an

6 explosion when a projectile landed. This was produced by the bomb squad

7 of the BH MUP Ministry of the Interior.

8 Q. Is that with respect to the incidents you have just been speaking

9 about in Velesici?

10 A. Yes. This is the expert finding in relation to that projectile

11 involved in the incident at Velesici that I spoke of a while ago.

12 MS. EDGERTON: If we go to page 23 of this document about two

13 thirds of the way down the page.

14 Q. Let me rephrase the question.

15 MS. EDGERTON: If we go back to the first page of the document, it

16 might be page 22. And, again, my apologies to everyone for my mistake in

17 the numbering.

18 Q. About two thirds of the way down the page on this document, do you

19 see a conclusion as to the calibre of the shell in this case?

20 MS. EDGERTON: Further down, please.

21 Yes. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that.

23 Q. What calibre -- sorry. What is the calibre of shell that is

24 recorded as being used?

25 A. 122-millimetre.

Page 2315

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that marked as the next exhibit,

3 please.


5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P238, Your Honours.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Now we'll move on to a scheduled incidents and that

7 is one of 22 August 1995, scheduled shelling 22, Your Honours.

8 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, did you take part in the investigation of a

9 major shelling incident on the date that I just referred to, 22 August

10 1995?

11 A. Yes. I was the forensic officer involved in the on-site

12 investigation on that day.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask that the photograph at ter number 2943

14 appear on the screen now.

15 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, where did that shelling take place?

16 A. The shelling took place at Zmaja od Bosne Street, the Bitas office

17 building. The house number is probably 64. That's as long as we're

18 talking about the 22nd of August.

19 Q. That's correct, we are. Now that address that you've just given

20 on Zmaja od Bosne of the Bitas building, approximately how far from your

21 police station is that location?

22 A. The Bitas building is about 80 to 100 metres from the location.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The street that the

24 witness mentioned was Zmaja od Nocjia [phoen] and not Zmaja od Bosne.


Page 2316

1 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, what do you recall the street address or the

2 street on which the Bitas building was located?

3 A. I do. This is Zmaja od Bosne, number 64. I think.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you take a look at the photograph that appears

5 on the screen in front of you and tell us whether you recognise anything.

6 A. Yes. I recognise the Bitas building; that's the first building I

7 recognise. I carried out an on-site investigation there.

8 Q. Now, with the marking tool that you should be used to by now,

9 could you circle the Bitas building on this photograph.

10 A. All right. So this is the Bitas building.

11 Q. Thank you. And with an arrow could you indicate the location of

12 your police station in relation to the Bitas building?

13 A. My police station is in a park between two residential buildings.

14 I'll draw an arrow. You can't see the police station building in this

15 photograph, but I will draw an arrow to indicate the general direction.

16 It's in a park between these two residential buildings.

17 Q. Now, there's a -- you've just indicated that the buildings in the

18 immediate vicinity of your police station and Bitas are residential. Are

19 you aware of what the higher buildings in behind to the north of your

20 police station and the Bitas building were used for. What was their

21 purpose?

22 A. All the buildings you can see around the Bitas building are

23 residential buildings. I will take one step at a time. The building that

24 I marked as number 1 is a post office. It's not a residential building.

25 It's at Novo Sarajevo post office. That's number 1 for you. Number 2 is

Page 2317

1 the Catholic church at Dolac-Malta. Numbers 3, 4, and 5 are all

2 residential buildings. To the right you can see two office buildings.

3 There is the Socijalno building, numbering 6. And the Electroprivida

4 building, which is number 7 now.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this marked as the next exhibit,

7 please.


9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P239, Your Honours.

10 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, you seemed to have been in the very near

11 vicinity of the incident that you described for us. Could you tell us

12 what you saw and heard going on at the time of the impact.

13 A. At the time, the projectile hit the Bitas, I was at the New

14 Sarajevo police station. Just before the impact, my colleagues and I had

15 heard a sound that we had definitely never heard before throughout those

16 years of war. It was like a huge droning sound passing through the town.

17 A projectile always makes a sound when it impacts against

18 something, but this was a sound that I was unfamiliar with, followed by a

19 powerful explosion. I left the police station, perhaps three or four

20 minutes after the explosion. Some of my mates had gone on. They had left

21 the building to go and see if there were any victims that they could

22 assist. All I saw at that time was a huge cloud of dust; and after that,

23 I just went straight back to the police station.

24 Q. When did you actually begin investigations into the events at this

25 location, at the Bitas building?

Page 2318

1 A. On the 22nd of August, 1995, New Sarajevo municipality and

2 especially the section around the Bitas building and Dolac-Malta was

3 subjected to one of the most severe bouts of shelling. It was for our own

4 safety that we couldn't carry out an on-site investigation at the Bitas

5 building that same day. The police had been securing the scene throughout

6 the night,; and then the next day on the 23rd of August, an on-site

7 investigation team was put together, a forensic team. The day seemed more

8 peaceful than the previous one, and there was an opportunity to have an

9 on-site investigation which was therefore conducted the next day.

10 Q. Did you make a photographic record of the scene?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask for ter number 00071 to be displayed,

13 please; and then following that, I would like page 1 of ter 00071 and then

14 page 2, please.

15 And while we're waiting for this -- oh, we don't have to wait any

16 time at all. If we could move on to page 2.

17 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, do you recognise the documents in front of you?

18 A. Yes, I do. This is a photo file that I put together at the scene

19 where the projectile impacted against the Bitas building on the 23rd of

20 August, 1995.

21 Q. Now, there's a photograph which appears in front of you on the

22 right-hand side of the screen. Could you -- do you recognise this

23 photograph? Tell us what it depicts.

24 A. I do. This is the Bitas building. The photograph shows the Bitas

25 building; the building that the projectile hit. This shows the

Page 2319

1 south-western front of the building, which is exactly the side of the

2 building hit by the projectile. The arrow that you can see in this

3 photograph shows the exact point of impact of the projectile, which was

4 between the second and third floors. Down on the ground, you can see the

5 evidence of damage caused by the impact.

6 I will use an arrow to mark the spot on the photograph. Perhaps

7 two metres back from there --

8 Q. Just a moment, please, Mr. Hasanefendic. We've -- we seem to have

9 lost the image or it's been overmagnified. Thank you.

10 We have the image in front of us. You were indicating that you

11 wished to mark something?

12 A. Yes. I wanted to indicate with an arrow the spot which would be

13 two metres further in where a person was killed by the explosion.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this photograph marked as the next

16 exhibit, please.


18 MS. EDGERTON: And perhaps I could note for the record that the

19 arrow at the top of the photograph depicts what is the witness has

20 described as the centre of the explosion, and the arrow at the bottom of

21 the photograph indicates what the witness has described as the location at

22 which someone was killed as a result.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be admitted as Exhibit P240, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Do you wish to continue on the same

Page 2320

1 subject.


3 MS. EDGERTON: I was prepared to move to another paragraph. So if

4 you have a question with respect to this photograph, I would respectfully

5 suggest that the time would be opportune.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] No. For the same incident, do you

7 want to continue on this since you -- perhaps you're going to ask the

8 question I had in mind.

9 MS. EDGERTON: I will continue with this incident. The

10 questioning is not quite over with, Your Honours.

11 If I could have page 9 of this same ter number, please.

12 Q. With respect to the top photo on page 9, Mr. Hasanefendic, do you

13 recognise this?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. What is it?

16 A. That photograph in my file that I made depicts the other side of

17 the Bitas building, so that should be the north-east side. And it shows

18 the damage on that side of the building caused by the explosion of that

19 projectile.

20 Q. What does the arrow denote?

21 A. The arrow shows the extensive damage on that side of the building

22 caused by the explosion.

23 Q. So just to reinforce what you said, then, the photograph which

24 we've marked as P240 is what you have described as the impact side of this

25 explosion, and you've just said this photograph is the other side?

Page 2321

1 A. Precisely. So I'm going to repeat. The previous photograph that

2 we've seen shows the north-west side, the side of impact; and this one

3 shows the other side, the back of the Bitas building showing the damage

4 caused by the explosion of the projectile. Because it's extensive damage,

5 and it was a large explosive device. It was a modified air bomb.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. I was just wanting to clarify your use of the word "other."

8 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this page marked as the next exhibit,

9 please.


11 MS. EDGERTON: Noting for the record, there are two photographs on

12 this page. I would just propose to put the whole page in rather than

13 split them up.

14 Q. I could ask the witness in one question what the second photograph

15 depicts, in fact.

16 A. On this photograph, we see pieces of furniture and files because

17 it was an office building, housing a company, and this debris was

18 propelled out of the building by the explosion. This was found below the

19 north-east side, the back that we've just seen on the other photograph.

20 So due to the impact of the projectile, that -- there was a large

21 explosive fusion that propelled material out of the building, so we see

22 the debris of furniture and files on the concrete pavement.

23 Q. So perhaps now we could have the page marked.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P241, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thanks.

Page 2322


2 Q. Did you recover any fragments of remains of the bomb,

3 Mr. Hasanefendic?

4 A. Yes, we did. In the course of our investigation, we found parts

5 of a metal projectile between 30 and 120 centimetres wide.

6 Q. If I could just stop you for a moment, Mr. Hasanefendic.

7 MS. EDGERTON: I would ask, Mr. Registrar, to pull up page 23 of

8 this same ter number, please.

9 Q. Do you recognise that, Mr. Hasanefendic?

10 A. Yes, I do. It's a photograph that I made on the spot on the 22nd

11 of August, 1995, which gives a forensic scale for this photograph of

12 pieces of the projectile that hit the building. Those are metal fragments

13 from 30 to 120 centimetres wide. Those are fragments of the projectile

14 that we found on the site of the Bitas bombing.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you make a report on the incident,

16 Mr. Hasanefendic?

17 A. Yes. A comprehensive crime investigation and forensic report was

18 made on this incident; my report, the photo file, and all the other

19 records that we made based on the evidence found on the spot.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Before there picture is removed, perhaps I could

22 ask that it be marked as the next exhibit.


24 THE REGISTRAR: As P242, Your Honours.

25 MS. EDGERTON: And could I then ask, Mr. Registrar, for ter 186 at

Page 2323

1 pages 2 and 3, please.

2 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, do you recognise the document that appears in

3 your language in front of you?

4 A. Yes, I do. That's my report on the first forensic investigation

5 of the crime scene of the shelling of the Bitas building of 22nd August,

6 1995.

7 Q. Could I direct you on this page to the last sentence that appears

8 on paragraph 4. Do you note there the direction from which the projectile

9 that caused the explosion came?

10 A. Yes. It was dated there that it was the determined on the spot

11 that the said projectile had flown in from the aggressor's position in the

12 south-west.

13 Q. And who controlled the position?

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, madam Prosecutor. If I'm not mistaken

15 the witness just answered your question of where the bomb came from by

16 saying that it flew in from the aggressor's position in the south-west.

17 Now what I read in the official report is that it came from was the

18 south-east. Could you clarify, please.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, having drawn my attention to the

20 official report, I can say this is an old translation and we had a

21 subsequent revised translation prepared yesterday correcting this, and it

22 obviously wasn't done in time and, with my apologies, to be uploaded on

23 the system. But perhaps to put the issue to bed, we could ask the witness

24 to read out the sentence in question and have the interpreters translate

25 it.

Page 2324

1 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, could you read what is set out in the last line

2 in paragraph 4, please.

3 A. It reads: "On the scene, it was determined that the said

4 projectile -- device had flown in from the direction of the aggressor's

5 position -- south-west."

6 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanefendic, is this finding as to the origin of fire

7 the team conclusion?

8 A. It's definitely the conclusion of the entire team. But following

9 our procedure, the final conclusion is the responsibility of the bomb

10 squad's technician in this case, and he concluded just as we did that the

11 projectile had flown in from the direction of the aggressor's position, to

12 the south-west.

13 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, are you aware what methods were used in this

14 case to determine the direction of fire?

15 A. Yes, I know that. At first, during our on-site investigation, our

16 purpose was to find the centre of the explosion; then when we established

17 on the basis of the damage that the centre of the explosion was between

18 the second and third floors, inside the building, but no more than one

19 metre away from the window close to the staircase, it was very easy for us

20 to establish by our standard procedure, standard forensic procedure, where

21 the projectile came from, and that was south-west.

22 Q. Did you assist in making that determination?

23 A. Yes, I did. I took part in our joint work, assisting the bomb

24 squad technician, but the final conclusion was his. I detected the

25 evidence, we determined the centre of the explosion together, and he made

Page 2325

1 the final report and the conclusion on the direction of the origin of the

2 projectile.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, I believe I have

4 a question to ask because the witness is saying that the projectile came

5 from the south-west, is that right, from the south-west? When we look at

6 photograph P240, we saw that the point of impact was on the north-west

7 side of the building.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that is the south-west, the side

9 of that building; and even today, that building still looks like it used

10 to during the war. It's the south-west facade, so the first photograph

11 that we saw.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Quite right. You said that you

13 "assisted in -- in the determination of the origin of the projectile,

14 together with a bomb squad technician," and you said, "the projectile came

15 from the south-west," I quote; and "from the," and I quote the again, the

16 aggressor's positions.

17 But several times here, we've been shown the line of confrontation

18 as it was in Sarajevo at the time; and if memory serves me right, both

19 armies were always facing each other. Therefore, this south-west

20 direction you mentioned was a direction where we -- where both armies were

21 to be found. Therefore, this bomb squad technician, how was he in a

22 position to say that the projectile was coming from the so-called

23 aggressor? Do you understand my question?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly understand your

25 question.

Page 2326

1 But, first of all, our job on the spot was to determine and to

2 analyse the whole situation on the scene, like in this case. So our first

3 task was to find the centre of the explosion and we did that.

4 Let me repeat again. The technician from the bomb squad is a

5 person who is involved in the investigation team, and his job is to

6 determine the direction of fire. I remember that when we worked on this

7 investigation, we all came to a joint conclusion that the projectile had

8 definitely flown in from south-west. But let me repeat, the one who makes

9 the final conclusion and the final report is the technician from the bomb

10 squad.

11 Another thing that happened during that investigation is that two

12 persons approached us - I don't remember their names, but the police

13 inspector probably took down their details - and these two persons stated

14 they had even seen the projectile fly in from the south-west. They saw it

15 while it was in the air. It was our first encounter with a device of this

16 kind, this modified air bomb.

17 But by studying it later, we found that the statements of the

18 witnesses were quite probable, because it flies in more slowly and its

19 primary aim is not impact. Its primary purpose is massive destruction and

20 intimidation, and that is reflected in the official report and conclusion

21 that we made.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Two questions.

23 You say the final conclusion, as to the direction from which the

24 bomb came, is the job of the bomb squad technician. Is there a report

25 from him, from that person?

Page 2327

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His report must be in existence

2 because our police procedure envisages that once we complete the on-site

3 investigation, each member of the investigation team makes their own

4 report, just as I make a forensic report complete with a photo file,

5 sketch, and a request for expertise. The investigating judge makes his

6 own report, the police inspector takes witness statements, and of course

7 the bomb squad technician has to make his own report to make this case

8 official. So I'm sure his report exists.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I must ask, Ms. Edgerton, are we hearing from the

10 bomb squad technician.


12 MS. EDGERTON: In respect of this specific incidents, Your

13 Honours, it's not our intention that you hear from the bomb squad

14 technician; however, it is our intention that you hear from the man who

15 served at the relevant time as the chief of the forensic department; in

16 other words, the supervisor of the bomb squad technicians.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: But what we're being told is that it is the bomb

18 squad technician who ultimately determines the direction from which the

19 bomb came. So his determination is conclusive, am I right?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right. His conclusion

21 official and final.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next question is you spoke of your team using

23 the standard procedure for determining the direction from which the bomb

24 came, and what is this "standard procedure"?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, our primary purpose

Page 2328

1 was to find the centre of the explosion. We found it easy to determine

2 the centre of the explosion due to extensive damage done to the building

3 and based on the concentration of that damage between the second and third

4 floors.

5 After that, the bomb squad technician sets a compass at the centre

6 of the explosion and very easily, based on the traces of the explosion and

7 the juxtaposition of the explosion, determines the direction of fire.

8 With mortar shells, it's much easier to establish that direction than with

9 modified projectiles such as this one. But precisely for that reason, we

10 spent a lot of time working on this investigation in order to achieve

11 absolute certainty that the direction of fire was indeed south-west, as we

12 finally agreed.

13 So the greatest amount of time in that investigation was spent on

14 determining the centre of the explosion because it was a very large

15 explosion, the kind of which we had never encountered before. And we

16 spent a lot of care and time trying to determine its exact centre.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: At first, he determines the centre of the

18 explosion, and you say that was -- that was done. After determining the

19 centre of the explosion, the bomb squad technician then employs his

20 compass; and, as you say, he very easily, based on the traces of the

21 explosion and the juxtaposition of the explosion, determines the direction

22 of the fire.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. Correct. So relative to

24 the centre of the explosion.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's the sciences that underlies this that I

Page 2329

1 would like to have explained. You say it was a conclusion arrived at very

2 easily, but I would be helped by having an explanation of the science that

3 is the basis of this conclusion.

4 The next question I would like to ask is: In this case, was the

5 determination made that the bomb came from the direction of the

6 south-west, or was it also determined that it came not only from the

7 south-west but from the aggressor's position?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, it was established

9 that the projectile came from south-west, from the aggressor's positions.

10 We determined that based on the procedure that I have described to you and

11 based on -- but mostly based on the procedure that I have described to

12 you. That's it. But that is an official report written by the bomb squad

13 technician that I have mentioned.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that determination was also made very easily,

15 I presume?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Notwithstanding the fact that, as Judge Mindua

18 said, both warring factions were relatively near to each other?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is true. I don't know, in

20 fact, whether they were relatively close to that area, because I have

21 never been there.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can't help us, then, with the distance

23 between the warring factions in that particular area in the south-west?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you what the distance

25 between the warring factions was in that particular area, because I've

Page 2330

1 never been there. But in that specific case that we investigated, I can

2 tell you this: After we established where the projectile impacted and

3 calculated the height of the building and took witness statements,

4 witnesses who told us that the projectile fell -- witnesses who told us

5 that they had seen the projectile in the air, not even close to the

6 building, but back in the area called Cengic Vila, based on that all that,

7 we determined that the projectile from come Serb positions in the

8 south-west.

9 After that, the projectile fragments were submitted to expertise,

10 and we received a report on that projectile and similar projectiles, that

11 we called modified air bombs, that had fallen on Sarajevo. And as far as

12 I know, most of them had arrived from that direction. And on that basis,

13 I wrote this sentence.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: In order to make your determination, not only as

15 to the direction from which the bomb came but that it came from the

16 aggressor's position, would you also not to have taken into account the --

17 the position of the -- of the other army, the ABiH army, in that area?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, we took into account the

19 position of the BiH army, but this time --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I put that you are not able to tell us

21 about the distance between the two armies in that area.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I'm saying this again,

23 concerning this specific case. My job was to collect all the evidence on

24 the spot, including the metal fragments of that projectile. I am not the

25 person who has the task to make such a analyses on the scene and to

Page 2331

1 consider the distance between the BiH army and the Serb army.

2 My job on the spot was to collect and preserve the evidence, in

3 this case involving the impact of a modified air bomb. The person who

4 takes such factors into account, including the it distance between the two

5 armies, is the bomb squad representative. So I am in no way able to

6 answer your question.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the bomb squad technician is the man.

8 Let us adjourn for 20 minutes.

9 May I invite you to take your seats.

10 I'm being told that we have a special schedule for the various

11 breaks for Friday, and the legal officer is going to pass me the schedule.

12 I was following the tradition schedule. We'll go to 12.30 when we will

13 take a one-hour lunch break, so we still have another ten, 12 minutes.

14 Ms. Edgerton, yes.

15 MS. EDGERTON: If I may deal with a couple of matters relating to

16 the last document which was on the screen, which I didn't tender, ter

17 number 186 at pages 2 and 3. Somebody has a mobile phone ringing.

18 Could I have that document up on the screen again, please.

19 And I should note for Your Honours, the translation which appeared

20 on the left-hand side of the screen which caused some confusion for all of

21 us was, in fact, not the translation for that document at all. And as I

22 said earlier, I will undertake to have the translation available before

23 the end of court today.

24 This document is the one which the witness commended extensively

25 about, and at this moment if I could have that enter as the next exhibit.

Page 2332


2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P243, Your Honours.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Could I go back then -- and this is not the

4 translation that appears on the left-hand side of this page is not the

5 translation for this document. It's the translation for a completely

6 different document. Thank you.

7 If I could go to the same ter number, 186, at pages 4 and 5, I

8 would appreciate that.

9 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, could you tell us what the document is that

10 appears on the screen in front of you?

11 A. This is an Official Note by a crime officer of Novo Sarajevo as a

12 result of the on-site investigation on the attack on the Bitas building on

13 the 22nd of August, 1995, and the note was made on the 25th of August,

14 1995.

15 Q. Was this crime investigations officer a member of your team?

16 And if we could scroll down through the document, please.

17 A. Yes, he was. He was a member of my team. You see his name under

18 number 2. At the time, he was the duty crime forensic officer from the

19 Novo Sarajevo police station.

20 Q. Now, just at the very bottom of my screen with the paragraph -- in

21 the paragraph that begins in your language with the word, "modifikovana".

22 Could you tell us whether or not this report sets out information as to

23 the origin of fire.

24 A. It reads that the origin of fire was the south-western side and

25 that is the aggressor's position at Orahovac. That's what it says.

Page 2333

1 Q. To your knowledge, is your own document as to the origin of fire

2 and the conclusion in this document as to origin of fire consistent with

3 what was contained in the ballistics report on this investigation, as to

4 origin of fire?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: That was not Orahovac,

6 is what the witness said.

7 A. Yes. In my report and my colleague's report, it is stated that

8 the projectile came from the south-westerly direction.

9 MS. EDGERTON: If we could just go up a little bit in the report,

10 to see the personalities involved.

11 Q. Now, I see a name at number 4, Mr. Hasanefendic: Mirsad

12 Dzelilovic. Could you explain to us who he was.

13 A. The gentleman was a colleague of mine, Mirsad Dzelilovic. He was

14 the bomb squad technician from the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo,

15 and he worked together with us on this investigation.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. EDGERTON: If I could have this entered as the next exhibit,

18 please.


20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P244, Your Honours.


22 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, now, with respect to this exhibit and the

23 previous exhibit, did you, in the course of your work as a forensic

24 technician with the Novo Sarajevo municipality, ever come upon a situation

25 where conclusions as to origin of fire made by your team differed from

Page 2334

1 those made by the bomb squad technicians?

2 A. We always worked on these investigations concerning shell impacts

3 or other artillery impacts together, and we never, ever, not even once,

4 reached differing conclusions as to the origin of fire.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if I could just go to the next page of this

6 document, that would be page 5.

7 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, you mentioned two witnesses, who later - if you

8 could go down the page - who later it came to light that corroborated

9 these findings as to origin of fire; do you see their names here?

10 A. Yes, I do. I see their names.

11 Q. And what are they, please.

12 A. Abdulah Cancar and Zada Borovina.

13 Q. Were statements taken from those two individuals, to your

14 recollection?

15 A. I don't recall that. I do remember that a man and a woman

16 approached us as we were investigating the scene and gave us their

17 statements that they saw the incident. There was a colleague of ours, an

18 officer, who noted down the information that they provided. I don't know

19 whether actually he took their official statements, because he is the

20 person charged with taking statements from eye-witnesses --

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. -- whereas, I work with the collection of evidence.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Moving to a ter number that we dealt with

25 previously, 00071, at page number 24.

Page 2335

1 Q. Do you see the picture in front of you, Mr. Hasanefendic, on the

2 screen? Do you recognise this?

3 A. Yes, I do. This is the photograph I made showing the direction

4 from which the projectile flew in, but I have to note that in normal times

5 this photograph should have been focussed at least ten centimetres more to

6 the right. Why? Because this was -- the point at which I stood when I

7 was talking the photograph was the last boundary where I could stand in

8 order not to expose myself to enemy fire, but otherwise I should have, in

9 fact, taken the photograph from a slightly different angle.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


12 Q. And on the compass, which direction is depicted in this

13 photograph?

14 A. This should be the direction to the south-west; however, as we are

15 looking at it now, it should show a bit more to the right. It is

16 south-west, but further to the right would have been more accurate.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this photograph marked as the next

18 exhibit, please.


20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P245, Your Honours.

21 MS. EDGERTON: According to special schedule for today, Your

22 Honours, it looks like I may have run out of time. I'm in Your Honours's

23 hands. There would be, maximum, seven to ten minutes worth of questions

24 after this.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I think it would be neater if you

Page 2336

1 just finish.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic, do you recall on 22nd of August at the time that

4 you heard the noise you described in your testimony and the detonation, do

5 you recall any military activity in the area other than the shelling which

6 prevented you from going out to investigate the explosion?

7 A. As far as I remember, there was no military activity in the area

8 we were at the time. There was shelling throughout the day, though, but I

9 do not recall any military activity in the area.

10 Q. Do you recall seeing any active Bosnian forces in the area at the

11 time?

12 A. I did not observe any active Bosnian army troops at the time and

13 in that area.

14 Q. Were there any mortars that you recall in that area?

15 A. I remember that I had never seen a single mortar in that area

16 in -- in my life. Well, I speak for myself.

17 Q. In -- do you have any knowledge or any experience of shells or

18 explosives of similar size and calibre to what was used in this incident

19 being used or in the possession of the Bosnian military forces?

20 A. I have no information about the explosive devices of this sort

21 ever having been in possession of the Bosnian forces.

22 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to deal with two photographs, please,

23 before I conclude. One which we've seen before; that's 2956. That's the

24 satellite image.

25 And, Mr. Registrar, the next photograph after that will be 2495.

Page 2337

1 Q. Can you on this photograph, Mr. Hasanefendic, mark the location of

2 the incident we've been discussing for the last wile on 22nd August 1995,

3 please.

4 A. Yes, I can mark the building accurately. This is Hrasnica,

5 Electroprivida, and this is where the building is.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... marking -- we may be in a

7 situation where we might need to do this again, but at the moment let's

8 move forward.

9 Marking the Bitas building with a circle, now with an arrow can

10 you indicate what you recall was determined as the direction of fire,

11 please.

12 A. It would perhaps be better if the image could be zoomed in on.

13 But at any rate, this is the direction of fire. As the image is quite

14 small, I will just draw a small arrow. This is the direction of fire. A

15 higher resolution, however, would be more helpful. I could draw it in

16 more detail.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps to close this issue, Your Honours, we could

18 have this marked as an exhibit, but it may assist everyone more if I have

19 the witness mark on the same photograph which has been delivered to the

20 parties recently. It's a higher resolution and covers a greater why area

21 than what we see on the screen in front of us.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could I just ask the witness if your latest

24 indication is correct, it would seem to me that the direction of fire is

25 from the east, is that correct, from the east? You have a north arrow in

Page 2338

1 the top corner of the picture which enables you to identify the -- the

2 directions.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. That's why I said that I

4 can barely make out the different quarters of town on this map. But if

5 this is at northern side, the top -- that's why I asked for a higher

6 resolution image because I can get my bearings there.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my

9 cross-examination, I was intending to put the question His Honour Judge

10 Harhoff just put. I don't want him to have this erased. I want this mark

11 to remain where it is, because he first drew this line; and when this is

12 tendered into evidence, if it is going to tendered, I don't want it to be

13 deleted.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, as a witness, would like to

15 say --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, what are you saying?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This arrow here, I've only just

18 noticed that this is the main street. Can I draw what I want on the

19 image? The resolution is really poor, and I am doing my best to

20 concentrate and see which part of town this is. The arrow should, in

21 fact, point a bit more down to the south-west. I just realise this is the

22 Zmaja od Bosne Street. If you want to, you can keep the first arrow, but

23 this is, in fact, what the arrow should point to, in relation to the Bitas

24 building, and that is roughly that.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness. Can you then clarify, at

Page 2339

1 least for me, whether your arrow that you have now drawn indicates the

2 direction of the mortar or the direction towards the area from which the

3 mortar was shot?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I just ask you -- you were

5 saying where the arrow is -- you were actually referring to this area at

6 the top, pointing to the north; is that right? Are you talking in

7 relation to that? Because I really don't know the size of the world on

8 this map to know what you're referring to when you say north.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Witness. I should have clarified this.

10 As I understand the picture in front of us, north is the top. If you look

11 at the top left corner of the picture, you will see a small arrow

12 indicating the north. Now, my question is you have identified Bits the

13 building, and you have put an arrow pointing down towards the lower left

14 side of the picture. And you have put an are arrow there; you have marked

15 that.

16 And the question is quite simple: Is the direction -- the arrow

17 is your -- is your arrow pointing down towards the point from which the

18 mortar was fired, or does your arrow indicate the direction of the mortar

19 when it came in and hit the building?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The arrow I drew shows the direction

21 from which it flew in, if we're talking about the Bitas building.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


24 Q. You are referring to what's presently the second lower arrow on

25 the photograph in front of you; is that correct, Mr. Hasanefendic?

Page 2340

1 A. Yes. That's the arrow that I was intending to draw, but the poor

2 resolution made it impossible for me to get my bearings and see the

3 streets that are depicted here.

4 You can erase the top arrow, as far as I'm concerned. That's it.

5 Q. Yes, that would be fine.

6 MS. EDGERTON: And I should note, perhaps some of the confusion

7 was caused by the imprecision in my initial question, which only referred

8 to direction of fire, and that in translation can easily cause a

9 misunderstanding.

10 Could we erase the top arrow, please, which the witness indicated

11 was drawn in error, due also in part to the lack of clarity of the

12 photograph.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked for the

16 Chamber to rule on this; and in the mean time, the arrow has already been

17 deleted.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the Chamber will consider whether it should

19 be replaced.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The arrow is to be replaced. The Chamber has

22 heard the evidence of the witness. It's for the Chamber to make what we

23 will of the evidence, in light of the explanation that he has given. But

24 the arrow is to be replaced.

25 Please draw and replace the first arrow.

Page 2341

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Due to the image itself, I made

2 roughly this arrow, but this isn't part of my statement.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regardless of both of these

5 arrows --


7 Q. Very briefly at this point, then, Mr. Hasanefendic, from which

8 direction did the bomb come from? The top arrow on this photograph or the

9 bottom arrow?

10 A. The on-site investigation established that the direction of fire

11 was in fact as depicted by the bottom arrow showing towards the bottom.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, you're facing a technological

13 problem. We only have five minutes of tape [Realtime transcript missing

14 words "of tape"] left.

15 MS. EDGERTON: I can speak very quickly Your Honours. If I could

16 have this be marked as the next exhibit. I will ask then for one final

17 photograph, 2495.


19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P245, Your Honours.

20 MS. EDGERTON: If we could now have 2495 [sic] on the screen,

21 please.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why can't the transcript reflect what I said. I

23 said, "we only have five minutes of tape left."

24 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. 2945. I'm loosing time on the tape because

25 of my own difficulties with mathematics. 2945.

Page 2342

1 No. It's coming?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, I commend you for the efforts that

3 you have made.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Defeated by technology, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the break now for one hour.

6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.48 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll just deal with two matters.

9 On February the 9th, the Prosecution filed a motion for the

10 admission of written statements, pursuant to Rule 92 ter in respect of

11 four witnesses. Now, the Defence response is expected on Friday, the 23rd

12 of February. I believe that means that the Defence has until that date to

13 respond. One of the witnesses mentioned in the motion is scheduled to

14 testify on Thursday, the 22nd of February, that is W-91; and in that

15 regard, it would be helpful if we could decide this motion on Monday, the

16 19th, and so I am inquiring of the Defence whether they could provide a

17 response earlier.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We'll prepare

19 our response for Monday morning, because the motion deals with four

20 witnesses who are very similar witnesses, similar to a motion you had

21 already ruled upon. So we'll probably take the same line, and we'll go

22 along with your decision.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Now, on the 1st ever February, the

24 Prosecution filed a motion for the admission of four written statements,

25 pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and the motion pertains to two statements of

Page 2343

1 witness W-12 and two statements of witness Suljevic. The Defence did not

2 respond to the motion. The Trial Chamber grants the Prosecution motion

3 and admits the four statements into evidence upon fulfilment of the

4 conditions set out in the Rule.

5 Please bring the witness in, and, Ms. Edgerton, to conclude her

6 examination-in-chief.

7 [The witness entered court]


9 Q. It's now afternoon, Mr. Hasanefendic.

10 To conclude your testimony today, I'd like you to deal with,

11 again, some further images on the screen in front of you, the first two of

12 which you see now. Do you recognise these two images; one on the right

13 and one on the left?

14 A. Yes, I recognise them.

15 Q. Sorry. Before you answer, could you tell us what they are.

16 A. These two photographs depict the front and back of the Bitas

17 building that was hit by this modified air bomb.

18 MS. EDGERTON: All right. For the record, the photograph on the

19 left-hand side of the screen bears the number P2495 [sic]; and the one on

20 the right side of the screen bears the number - I've done it again, Your

21 Honours - bears the number 2945; and the one on the right-hand side of the

22 screen, bears the number 2944.

23 Q. Now, looking at number 2945, when you say that this is the front

24 side of the Bitas building, what direction does this side face?

25 A. This is the front facade of the Bitas building, which faces

Page 2344

1 south-west.

2 Q. Does this then depict the impact site of the bomb that you

3 investigated on August 22nd, 1995?

4 A. Yes. On that side of the building, we can see the point of impact

5 of that air bomb.

6 Q. And going to the one the right-hand side of your screen, 2944,

7 does this photograph depict what you described as the back-- the exit side

8 of the bomb.

9 A. That shows precisely the back of the building and the damage

10 caused by the explosion of the air bomb.

11 Q. Now, do these two photographs resemble in any way the Bitas

12 building in Sarajevo as it appears today in 2007?

13 A. This building has not been renovated so far, not until the day

14 when I travelled to this Tribunal, and it looks exactly the same as it did

15 in 1995.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. The damage is the same.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. EDGERTON: If we could have up on the screen, please P --

20 Prosecution Exhibit 245, one further time. The ter number -- I don't need

21 the ter number now that it's got an exhibit number, because I had a look

22 at the transcript over the break and I -- apologies, I have to look at --

23 what I'd like on the screen, please, Mr. Registrar, is the image of the

24 map that the witness last marked with the two arrows, so that's probably

25 246 then.

Page 2345

1 It originally bore the ter 2956, but I was looking for the one

2 that he -- thank you. Over the break, I had a look at the transcript

3 and, I realised that the transcript lacks some clarity as to the

4 description or the meaning of what was intended by the lower arrow.

5 Q. With that in mind, I would like to ask, Mr. Hasanefendic, this

6 lower arrow of the two, that appears on the photograph that is on the

7 screen in front of you, does it point to where the bomb was fired from, or

8 does it point to where the bomb was flying to? Is that clear,

9 Mr. Hasanefendic?

10 A. It's clear. That's the direction determined on the spot by the

11 bomb squad technician, this lower arrow. I made a mistake because it's

12 image was not ideal.

13 Q. Sorry, Mr. Hasanefendic, that wasn't the question I asked you. I

14 asked you if the arrow pointed to where the bomb was fired from or in the

15 direction the bomb was flying to.

16 A. The arrow shows, as we've say, the direction from which the

17 projectile flew in. That's the only thing we know based on that

18 investigation.

19 MS. EDGERTON: I am going to leave it at that, Your Honour, and

20 that concludes my examination-in-chief.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I note you spent about two hours,

22 twice the time which you had estimated for examination-in-chief and

23 cross-examination. Earlier next week, the Chamber will be issuing a note,

24 setting out the time spent by the Prosecution so far.

25 Mr. Tapuskovic, cross-examination.

Page 2346

1 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry. I omitted to tender the photographs,

2 2944 and 2945, the numbers which I got correct for the first time.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will admit that.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we admit 02945 as Exhibit P247, and

5 02944 as Exhibit P248.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Did you give me the floor.


8 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

10 that this photograph, 245, remain on the screen, so that I don't have to

11 recall it later.

12 Could the witness point out -- excuse me.

13 Q. Witness, I appear here for General Dragomir Milosevic. My name is

14 Branislav Tapuskovic, Attorney-at-law. Can you show me where Cengic Vila

15 is on this photo?

16 A. First of all, I cannot show you here where Cengic Vila is here,

17 because there are two locations by the same name. Cengic Vila 1 and

18 Cengic Vila 2. Cengic Vila, if we look at this Bitas building, goes all

19 along the street that leads to the radio and television, and on the

20 right-hand side is Cengic Vila 1. If we look towards the radio television

21 building --

22 Q. Towards the north?

23 A. No, no. It faces west. But there is also Cengic Vila 2. Do you

24 want me to point out.

25 Q. Just tell me first about the one that faces west.

Page 2347

1 A. So if we look from this perspective --

2 MS. EDGERTON: [Previous translation continues] ... colour.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please use a pen with a different colour,

4 yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So looking from this perspective,

6 Cengic Vila is located, number 1, just as this upper arrow that I already

7 marked.

8 Q. Show.

9 A. I'm indicating. That is Cengic Vila 1 and Cengic Vila 2 is in

10 this direction, on the border between Otok neighbourhood and Hrasna

11 neighbourhood.

12 Q. You spoke about two eye-witnesses who said -- in fact, you say

13 that they said the projectile had come from Cengic Vila direction?

14 A. That's not what I said. What I said is this: Two witnesses

15 approached us and said that going through Cengic Vila neighbourhood, they

16 saw the projectile in the air, and it was moving at such a speed that it

17 was clearly visible. They didn't say it came from Cengic Vila; they said

18 that they were at the time in Cengic Vila neighbourhood.

19 Q. What did they say about the direction? Where did it come from?

20 A. They didn't say that. They only said they saw it above Cengic

21 Vila. That's what I remember.

22 Q. Did you speak to them?

23 A. I did not speak to them. The crime inspector -- crime police

24 inspector spoke to them. I didn't even remember their names until I read

25 them here. But their reports were also an indicator of the direction

Page 2348

1 from which the projectile had come from, and it meant something to the

2 bomb squad technician.

3 Q. Because that could be a very important testimony. How come the

4 police inspector didn't ask these people where the bomb was coming from?

5 And that would have solved the problem. We wouldn't have to bother --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see how he can answer that.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

8 Q. But can you answer this. Document DD00-0759 is this witness'

9 statement of March 1997, 10th March 1997.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could it please be shown to

11 Mr. Hasanefendic. DD00-0759.

12 Q. Is that your statement?

13 A. I'm sorry. I still don't see it on the screen.

14 Q. Is this your statement?

15 A. I see my name here, my father's name, but I would also like to see

16 the actual text.

17 Q. Look at the end of the document, it's page 3.

18 A. That is my statement.

19 Q. Does this passage relate precisely to this incident of the 22nd of

20 August 1995. I could take you back to it, but I wanted to save some time.

21 A. Yes, it does relate to that case.

22 Q. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, I can confirm that.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's on the last page as well in

25 English, Your Honours.

Page 2349

1 Q. The investigator asked you: "How did you determine that the fire

2 came from south-west?"

3 Answer: "The direction of the incoming fire was determined by the

4 ballistics expert, and I was present when he came to that conclusion. I

5 would like to say that as a scene of crime officer, it was my duty to

6 preserve evidence."

7 Did you say that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the next paragraph we read, "We determined the direction from

10 which the projectile was fired based on to the damage onto the building."

11 So is it correct that you determined the direction based on damage

12 caused to the building?

13 A. You have to understand one thing. Is not I who determined the

14 direction. That job was done by the bomb squad technician. My job on the

15 scene was to collect evidence, such as parts of the projectile; to

16 preserve that evidence; to make a sketch of the scene; to prepare a

17 photographic file; bag all the evidence and send it to expertise.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I continue.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you now focus on the rest of this text. "The impact was

24 visible on the south-west side of the building. In fact, it would have

25 been better to state the direction as south because the projectile came

Page 2350

1 more from south, from south rather than south-west. It would have been

2 better if we had stated the direction as south because the projectile had

3 come from south rather than south-west."

4 A. It's very -- I can explain it.

5 Q. Can we also draw that line as well on the photograph?

6 A. Maybe I answer this question, please? Will you allow me?

7 When we did that on-site investigation, of course, we followed the

8 entire procedure that I described earlier. However, forensic techniques

9 and bomb squad techniques and all the people who attended the scene, at

10 that moment, may always take a broader area to describe the direction of

11 fire.

12 We couldn't go to the spot to confirm and we were not able to

13 see -- as the Honourable Judge asked me, we couldn't see the spot where

14 from where it was fired. But it is a standard normal procedure of

15 forensic technique to take an area as a possible source of fire, and

16 that's why we made the description worded as it is.

17 Q. Witness, I heard a number of your answers so far. Let me remind

18 you that in the first attempt to explain this on the 10th of March, 1997,

19 you responded to the very explicit question of the investigator by saying,

20 "It would have been better to state south as the direction of fire,

21 because the projectile came from the south rather than south-west."

22 A. When I made that statement, I reviewed my photo file as well. But

23 to explain what I said, I said that because the photograph showed more

24 precisely the direction where the projectile came from, but I took a

25 broader area.

Page 2351

1 Q. I don't want to argue with this witness, but I just want him to

2 draw that line as well on that map, 245.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What line is it that you want him to draw? What

4 line?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Relative to that building, I want

6 him to draw a line that would indicate the direction showing that the

7 projectile came from south as he believed then in 1997.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honour, that has not been his evidence

10 today. That may have been what he had written in miss original report.

11 He indicated that prior to making the statement, he had an opportunity to

12 review the investigative file and the related documentation and to look at

13 his photographs again. He made that correction. My submission, Your

14 Honours, would be if he were draw to another arrow indicating south as the

15 direction of the fire, he is asked to -- he is being asked to create

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't think so. It's for the Chamber to

18 assess.

19 Draw the line depicting the bomb coming from the south.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right. I just want him to

21 show graphically what he said the first time.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have instructed him to do it, Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 Did you understand that, Witness?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But he doesn't have the picture.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let the relevant map be put on the screen.

Page 2352

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, I want the map from

2 before.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the number?

4 Ms. Edgerton, can you help us with this?

5 P246.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 245, not 246, as I said a moment

7 ago.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And am I supposed now to draw a line

9 going to the south?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. No, what you said in 1997. Draw the line that goes to -- that

12 goes south as you said then, and the Trial Chamber will decide?

13 A. I am telling you, again --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Listen to me. You will do what I tell you to do.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

16 All right. If I have to draw a line southward, that would be it.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now, speaking of this event in this building, I have to ask you,

20 do you have medical records to accompany all this that you have been

21 telling us? Do you have medical records describing the injuries of people

22 who were, according to you, injured on that spot?

23 A. I don't have those medical records. In our case, it was collected

24 by the crime police inspector from the Security Services Centre of

25 Sarajevo. The forensics department does not collect medical

Page 2353

1 documentation.

2 Q. Can you tell us how we can make any conclusions at all about this

3 if the medical documentation is missing --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a comment which is not appropriate.

5 You're not allowed to make comments.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, I put it to you that the medical documentation exists but

8 you deliberately did not put it in this file?

9 A. I really have to tell you, again. As a scene of crime officer, it

10 is not my job to collect medical documentation. My job is to make my own

11 report, the photo file, the sketch. So I really have knowing to do with

12 it. This is the job of a scene of crime officer in the field.

13 Q. Was the investigating judge called at all it to this incident?

14 A. Yes. His assistance was required. He features in the report,

15 but I now don't recollect very clearly. In such cases, investigating

16 judges usually authorise the police inspector to create the report, and

17 they did not come with us into the field.

18 Q. So, we don't have the reports and opinions and findings of the

19 most competent people; namely, investigating judges.

20 A. I really don't know that. My job was something different, to

21 create my own forensic report, a sketch, photo file, and a request for

22 expertise. The forensics department, where I work, has nothing to do with

23 the rest of the documentation.

24 Q. Sir, you state that as far you know the bomb flew very slowly.

25 Didn't you say that?

Page 2354

1 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

2 Q. Can you please explain how the projectile like that could have

3 torn through the entire building length-wise? It's quite a broad

4 building. How could it with penetrated all the way through? Did you

5 establish that, and how did you establish that such a thing was possible?

6 A. We did establish that to have been a possibility. The building

7 had offices either side of the central staircase, so it wasn't

8 particularly wide, the way I remember it. The projectile went off inside

9 the building between the second and third floors near the staircase, not

10 more than a metre from the actual window. Therefore, the projectile did

11 not tear through the entire building. It went off inside, and its

12 explosive charge caused the damage to the building that is depicted in the

13 photograph.

14 Q. I could show you more photographs of that building. I'm putting

15 it to that you based on the photographs I have seen, and the Chamber is in

16 possession of those photographs, I'm putting it to you that building was

17 hit by who knows how many different projectiles. Any comment, sir?

18 A. Yes, of course. First of all, there is inaccurate, your

19 suggestion that it was hit by several projectiles. It was only hit by

20 one, by a single projectile, by a modified air bomb of which we found bits

21 and pieces, even some of the fins and the engine of the little of the

22 little motor that propelled this modified air bomb. I'm not an expert

23 myself. I'm not sure how much explosive it contained, but it was probably

24 a powerful charge.

25 Q. At the time, in those days, there were not constant ongoing

Page 2355

1 clashes between the warring parties?

2 A. The New Sarajevo municipality was being shelled heavily at the

3 time. There were no particular clashes in my own area where I worked, but

4 I can't speak about any other areas.

5 Q. Can you perhaps say whether the BiH army, too, fired back?

6 A. You see, I was a scene of crime officer, a member of the police.

7 I never even carried weapons throughout the war. That was the kind of

8 work I did. That was my job. I can hardly comment on anything to do with

9 BH army activity or anything like that.

10 Q. Are you telling me that throughout the war, being a police officer

11 and having such a tough job, you never carried a weapon. Is that what

12 you're telling me?

13 A. Yes, I never carried a weapon at all. Five of my colleagues can

14 confirm that for you. I had signed for a pistol that I was entitled to in

15 the line of duty, but I kept it at home. None of us needed one actually.

16 The inspector was carrying a pistol, but that was all he was carrying.

17 The bomb squad person need no weapon, and I need he had no weapon myself.

18 That was the sort of job we had. I had to actually sign for a pistol, but

19 that was all.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter 00186,

21 please, page 4.

22 Q. You were shown page 4 by the Prosecutor. It's an Official Note.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please run that up on

24 our screens. "Official Note dated the 25th of August."

25 Q. Can you see that, sir?

Page 2356

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. The second-to-last paragraph, it's a huge one. It says: "Probably

3 fired from south-west, which coincides with the positions held by the

4 Serbian army, the army of Republika Srpska, at the Rajlovac PZT." Where

5 is Rajlovac relative to the building that was hit?

6 A. Relative to the building? Rajlovac is to the west, south-west,

7 possibly. Rajlovac as a general area.

8 Q. You say, "tore through glass," and I won't be reading on. I'm

9 just quoting the relevant portion that I will base my question on.

10 "At the time of the explosion, the man who came to grief who was

11 inside a motor vehicle accident in a Golf car and the registration plate

12 number from Sarajevo, and this vehicle was parked outside the building

13 next to the Gol restaurant at Zmaja od Bosne, number 66.

14 "The person that sustained injuries to the chest. He got out of

15 the car and fell on the ground next to the restaurant, where citizens

16 gathered to help him, that they put him in an unidentified car and took

17 him to the hospital. However, he succumbed to his wounds on the way to

18 the hospital, while Alija Muharemovic was merely injured."

19 Is that what it says?

20 A. Yes, that's what it says. That's what it says, and that's how it

21 happened.

22 Q. Did you take any photographs at the scene? I mean where this man

23 fell to the ground, did you see any blood mark there is?

24 A. As far as I remember, I did photograph the vehicle, the Golf

25 vehicle. I did photograph the scene, the site where he was injured; and

Page 2357

1 as far as I remember, I photographed the blood marks that were there.

2 Q. That's not what I'm asking. He got out of the car, he crossed a

3 certain distance, he fell down, and other people picked him up. I'm

4 asking you, did you photograph the blood marks on the spot where this

5 unfortunate man fell down?

6 A. I think so. It's been a long time since I last went through the

7 photo files, but I must have because he didn't fall down that far away.

8 The place where he eventually fell down was quite near the car, the Golf

9 car. I should have.

10 Q. I have the photographs of that car and the blood marks in the car

11 that you found, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But there's no way I could know where the car was, and that's why

14 I can't ask you that, can I? What I'm asking you is if we look at these

15 photo files, why is there no solid evidence -- I mean no photograph to

16 show blood marks on the spot where the man fell down?

17 A. Simply because --

18 MS. EDGERTON: [Previous translation continues] ... with any

19 malicious intent, but I hear the parties speaking to one another without

20 any pause in between, and it-- I'm suffering and I'm sure other people are

21 trying to follow what is going on.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I must ask both the witness and counsel to

23 observe a pause between question and answer, don't overlap.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, sir, there is no photograph here of the actual place

Page 2358

1 where this man, who had previously got out of the car, fell down. No

2 blood marks were photographed. Can you explain why? Why did you not do

3 that?

4 A. I can't explain why that wasn't done. I did take the photographs.

5 I photographed the vehicle in which the man had been, the man who

6 eventually you succumbed. Why did we not photograph the place where he

7 fell down is really not something that I can explain.

8 Q. I'm putting it to that you that you he was not killed on this spot

9 where you say he was?

10 A. And I'm putting it to you -- I'm putting it to you that he was,

11 and that there is ample evidence to show that. In addition to forensic

12 evidence, there is operative evidence for the following reason: This man

13 was an Electroprivida driver, company driver, and he was waiting for

14 someone outside of this restaurant, which kept on operating throughout the

15 war.

16 Q. I do believe you.

17 A. I wasn't that sort of a police officer. I -- I didn't do

18 operative work. There is probably material evidence to show that the man

19 was killed there. I didn't find him there. But on account of the kind of

20 injury that he had received, it was only to be expected that the witnesses

21 would try to take him away from there and provide some medical assistance.

22 Q. You're a scene of crime officer, aren't you? Wasn't the first

23 thing you were ever taught to photograph the scene whenever you find

24 someone who was killed? That is always the first thing do you in a murder

25 investigation, right? First, you photograph the scene where a body was

Page 2359

1 found and then you get on with the rest, because that shows whether the

2 person was hit there or not, and we use the blood marks to show that,

3 don't we?

4 You were there to photograph the scene, so why did you not

5 photograph the blood marks in that case?

6 A. I didn't photograph that and probably because I thought it was

7 sufficient for me to have the blood marks inside the vehicle, and you do

8 have that. That's part of the photo file. So that was probably the

9 reason. I did not photograph the exact spot where the man fell to the

10 ground, and I assumed the reason was because he did not actually die

11 there, unless I'm mistaken.

12 Q. I'm not saying he died there. I'm saying that he fell to the

13 ground right there. People came, people picked him, fetched him, took him

14 away. He must have lost a lot of blood by this time. Why did you not

15 photograph that place, that bit of ground where he fell?

16 A. I'm telling you that's because he didn't fall there, and he didn't

17 die there but elsewhere. I photographed this vehicle with blood marks in

18 which this man had been. I assumed that for the purposes of my evidence

19 this was sufficient. That was probably the only reason I didn't actually

20 photograph the very spot where the one fell to the ground.

21 Q. You arrived the next day, didn't you?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. How, then, do you know where the vehicle had been parked on the

24 previous day?

25 A. The vehicle had not been moved. It was always in the same place.

Page 2360

1 And if you look at the marks on the vehicle, the sort of damage it had

2 sustained, you immediately realise that the vehicle had been caught by the

3 explosion. There were police officers securing the scene throughout the

4 night. Those were my workmates. I came there; I asked no questions.

5 I assumed when I arrive that the scene was intact; that it had

6 properly secured. Did somebody move the vehicle or not, is not really

7 something that I can say. As far as any evidence on the vehicle, there

8 was nothing to lead me to believe that it had been moved. All the marks

9 were fresh. The marks of the explosion, the blood marks were relatively

10 fresh, and all of the other evidence that pointed to one conclusion that

11 the vehicle had not been moved, as well as any other evidence. No dust

12 moved around the vehicle itself, no dirt.

13 Q. Why did you not photograph the path he took to the place where he

14 eventually fell to the ground? It should have blood marks all along,

15 right?

16 A. Not necessarily. As I told you, I didn't photograph the very spot

17 he fell to the ground, but that doesn't mean there would have been a

18 profusion of blood. As soon as he was wounded, he was put into this car

19 and he was taken away, as Omar Masacic's [phoen] note indicates. I

20 probably assumed at the time the about this place where the gentleman was

21 hit and the blood marks, that my photographs were sufficient for my

22 purposes, for the purpose of my report and my photo file.

23 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, for this elucidation. It is now

24 down to the Chamber to evaluate your evidence.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, we have the other incident

Page 2361

1 photograph, 65 ter 012019. The date is the 18th of July 1995. This is

2 Prosecution Exhibit P236. If we could please have that document brought

3 up for the witness's sake.

4 Q. Can you see that, sir?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. Were you involved in this, too? Did you say something about that

7 a while ago, didn't you? The Prosecutor was showing you something about

8 this, right?

9 MS. EDGERTON: The pages of 236 I exhibited were pages 2 to 6, if

10 I'm not mistaken. That might help my friend Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you my learned

12 friend that. That is indeed the document.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was involved in the on-site

14 investigation that led to this report.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is that so? When did you arrive on the scene in that case?

17 A. We arrived at the scene. We took no more than five minutes to

18 drive over in our Golf from the new Sarajevo police station. As a matter

19 of fact, that was one of the most peaceful days throughout all the time

20 that I was on duty in the station that I had been assigned to. I remember

21 that we actually heard these four shells being fired, and we exchanged

22 comments. I'm just trying to explain why we got there so fast.

23 We were saying things like, they're shooting again, bullets flying

24 again, and then our operation's duty officer, who was organising the whole

25 team, told us that shells had landed on Velesici; and then the entire

Page 2362

1 team present inside the police station at that moment packed our things

2 and off we were to the scene as fast as we could, and then gentleman

3 number 2 from Besera [phoen] joined us. We reached the scene with the

4 shells landed within the shortest time possible.

5 Q. And your absolutely positive that this came from positions held by

6 the army of Republika Srpska, aren't you?

7 A. That's what was established, yes. That's what the investigation

8 established, the on-site investigation. Gentleman number 4, the bomb

9 squad technician, contributed that to the official report.

10 Q. Based on what do you conclude where the shell had come from?

11 A. Well, first and foremost, we did the on-site work together. I did

12 my job; he did his job. We investigated the scene of the explosion; and

13 in this case, we were dealing with mortar shells, if I remember correctly.

14 So the forensic technician determined where the projectiles had come

15 from.

16 Q. You have told us a number of times that it was normally not before

17 the next day that you went to a crime scene simply because of the risk

18 that the fire might continue, right?

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. So how do you explain the fact that this time around it only took

21 you five minutes, although the danger was sometimes there? How do you

22 account for that fact, sir?

23 A. I remember with great clarity that we took no long everybody than

24 five minutes to get there, because we had the police car available. We

25 did most of our work by walking; it was leg work. We had to walk to a

Page 2363

1 scene. We got to this particular scene five minutes after we had been

2 notified by the duty operation officer.

3 Why did we get there so fast? Was I colleague scared? Was I

4 scared? Having seen what I had seen there, I didn't even spend any time

5 thinking. We just tried to get there as fast as we could. The firing had

6 stopped after the shells landed and after that there was no more firing.

7 Q. But how did you know? Five minutes later, how did you know that

8 such atrocities had taken place there?

9 A. We knew because the police station had its Velesici substation.

10 This was called, if I'm not mistaken the police station number 3. We had

11 one at Pofalici, that was police station numbering 2, and another in

12 Hrasno, the Heroes Square, which was police station number 4. Our

13 colleagues from the Velesici police substation informed us right away

14 about this case.

15 And I remember that when I was working on that earlier on-site

16 investigation case, which was about 100 metres away from the other one - I

17 think we had four incidents in a perimeter of some 100 metres - we got

18 there information as we were working on this case. It was also probably

19 due to their fast reaction. They secured the scene of crime, and we

20 reached the place in fire minutes and were able to complete our

21 investigation.

22 Q. First of all, you didn't answer my question at all. Earlier on

23 you avoided going out in to the scene of the crime immediately after the

24 incident had taken place because you were afraid of the fire. In this

25 particular instance, you were not fearful at all. You showed up there

Page 2364

1 quite soon. How is that possible?

2 A. I will explain this. I told you about the incident on the 22nd of

3 August and some other incidents where we were unable to attend the scene

4 due to the ongoing shelling and sniping, but this applied only to these

5 couple of incidents. We attended hundreds of scenes, and we would go out

6 to the scene if it was possible. How would these things take place? Two

7 or three rounds would be fired and then the situation would calm down. We

8 would go out to the scene of the crime as soon as the circumstances

9 permitted us.

10 Q. What, in your view, should have happened then to prevent you from

11 going there? You say, first, there was fire and then there was quiet. In

12 your view, what should have followed after the shelling?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I stood sometime ago to just ask the

14 parties, again, if we could move from a high speed down to some more

15 reasonable gear. But I've been on my feet for about 25 seconds because

16 things were going so fast the interpreter and the transcript had to catch

17 up with everything.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: For the umpteenth time, you both speak the same

19 language so it's natural to overlap, but you must observe a pause between

20 question and answer.

21 Mr. Tapuskovic, you have had experience with this before, so you

22 should be setting the example for the witness.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Maybe the witness and

24 Mr. Tapuskovic could wait for the transcript to be finished before they

25 actually talk again.

Page 2365

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed. Although, I do not speak

2 any English, that is the best method, and I will be mindful of that. But

3 I don't know where we left it off now.

4 THE WITNESS: If you permit me, I'll answer.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please do.

7 A. You asked me what this "nothing" meant, what was I supposed to do?

8 Well, when I said "nothing," this meant that, of course, I was not

9 going to attend a scene of crime if I knew that I -- that a sniper had set

10 the sites on me or that there was shelling going on. The highest price in

11 my line of work was paid by police officers themselves who would come to

12 the scene of the crime, to secure the scene, and would stand there until

13 we reached the scene of crime.

14 So when I said that after these shells landed, nothing happened, I

15 meant that there was no more fire and we were able to attend the scene.

16 This, however, did not mean that we could not have come under subsequent

17 artillery fire and been injured.

18 Q. Let me ask you this: In every single case, you attended the scene

19 of crime the day after. This was the only time when you reached the scene

20 of the crime five minutes later, and you categorically state that you were

21 there without actually knowing whether it was in fact secured.

22 A. I am categorically asserting that we were at the scene of the

23 crime five minutes later. We knew there were casualties because the

24 operations duty officer informed us to that effect. And we knew that the

25 Velesici incident involved casualties. We reached the scene within five

Page 2366

1 minutes in our official vehicle. The incidents that we have been

2 referring to during my evidence here are not the only ones I worked on. I

3 had other cases, and you can find that in my documentation, where I

4 together with the bomb squad technicians attended scenes of crimes, very

5 soon after the incidents happened.

6 Q. What about your colleagues? Were they right at the spot where the

7 shells landed, so that's how you were able to join them there?

8 A. Of course not. Of course they weren't at the site of the impact.

9 We had duty police officers from the Novo Sarajevo police station there.

10 This was their patrolling area, as it were. As soon as the shells landed,

11 residents reported that, just as they report burglaries today. Thus my

12 colleagues were informed and they reached the site. Since the Velesici

13 neighbourhood is quite a small area, I guessed there was a patrol making

14 rounds who got word of the shelling incident and went there. They were

15 informed of the shell landing and maybe even of the casualties involved.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not clear to me where this

17 line of question is leading. What is behind it? What is your purpose?

18 Perhaps you should just put to the witness exactly what you have in mind.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be direct in that case.

20 Q. Based on the reports and documents that I received only one or two

21 days before your testimony, only on the 13th of February - and it took me

22 quite some time to go through them - I may have overlooked it, but

23 Witness, sir, I have not found anywhere in your documentation any

24 information to the effect that you found blood marks at the scene of the

25 crime, either you or your colleagues.

Page 2367

1 A. First of all, thanks to our prompt reaction we found dead people

2 there. I recall that as soon as we reached the relevant street we found

3 Mr. Zolata, that is to say, father and son dead there. In some other

4 case, we found a man in his garden with his body ripped apart. You are

5 asking me about finding bloodstains. Well, let me tell you that I found

6 dead bodies at the scene of the crimes, and I believe that from my

7 perspective, finding bodies is more relevant than bloodstains.

8 Q. Of course. Loss of life is always a terrible thing, but my

9 question to you is: When you reached the scene of the crime, I put it to

10 you that these people were killed elsewhere and that in a very short span

11 of time you relocated these bodies and left them at these scenes. This is

12 what I'm putting to you.

13 A. Very well. You are entitled, by virtue of your duty before this

14 Tribunal, to put this to me, but let us take all the persons involved in

15 drafting the reports; let us take the relatives of the persons killed or

16 wounded in these incidents. These were neighbourhoods predominantly

17 populated by Bosniaks, people living in individual family houses, not

18 apartment blocks. Why don't you also put it to them that these dead

19 bodies were taken from somewhere else and left at these scenes of crimes?

20 I'm telling you that this is not the case.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We would all be better served if you just answer

22 the question correctly, and you answered it. You say this is not the

23 case. Yes.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. But where is the blood?

Page 2368

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I would expect you to provide us with some

2 assistance when you put to the witness that -- an allegation that these

3 corpses were placed there by the witness or by somebody in the witness's

4 unit. I would expect you to provide some sort of substance behind that

5 allegation. Do you have any reason to believe that this was done, or can

6 you, in any way, provide us with some evidence that this might have been

7 the case?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I worked on some

9 300 murder cases in my career. When a person is killed, the first thing

10 that ought to remain as a trace beneath his body are bloodstains. I will

11 finish this line of questioning. However, let the witness first explain

12 how it is possible for him to find a person on the spot where the person

13 got killed without taking a photograph of the bloodstains left behind --

14 beneath the man's body. I am asking him to account for the missing piece

15 of evidence. How is it possible for a forensics team to attend a scene of

16 crime and not take such pictures whilst carrying a camera with them?

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I fully respect your independence to cross-examine

18 the way you see fit, but the indictment here and this particular charge is

19 about the shelling. So I think the relevant part here would be whether

20 you deny the shelling, in the first instance, because the fact of whether

21 there were casualties as a consequence of the shelling perhaps is of

22 lesser importance if we have first initially established that the shelling

23 did take place. And this is what your client is accused of in this case.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will never deny

25 shelling or deny that life was lost. However, one ought to first

Page 2369

1 establish whether shelling caused a person to lose his or her life. If

2 the on-site investigation fails to show that there were any bloodstains,

3 then how is it to be proven that a person was killed on the spot if the

4 piece of evidence showing blood at the crime scene is not there? I am

5 claiming, upon full responsibility because I know what the responsibility

6 of a Defence lawyer is, that the bodies were indeed in the condition they

7 were found in, but they were originally not at the crime scenes they were

8 claimed to be. Any murder, to be proven, has to be substantiated with

9 appropriate evidence. If a person was killed at a certain spot, then the

10 first thing that has to be proven is that he indeed was killed on that

11 very spot.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have gone through

14 the document carefully.

15 Q. Witness, sir, where is the medical documentation attendant to the

16 persons who were killed and wounded? Where is it? There is no medical

17 documentation for any of the casualties, for not a single one, because

18 based on the documentation I have here, one has no way of saying which way

19 they got killed.

20 A. I will repeat: It was not my duty to take care of the medical

21 documentation. It was the duty inspector who had to obtain medical

22 documentation. I'm sure that medical documentation can be found somewhere

23 in the file.

24 As far as bloodstains are concerned, of which there has been a lot

25 of discussion here, these photographs I believe do show persons who were

Page 2370

1 killed as a result of shelling.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have heard enough of this. Let's move on.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will even withdraw my questions

4 with regard to two similar incidents.

5 I have another document which was not used by the Prosecution, but

6 it was listed under 65 ter as 01128. These are the events dated the 5th

7 of July, 1995. This is a batch of documents that I included in my list of

8 exhibits as soon as it was disclosed to me by the Prosecution. I did not

9 ask for your leave to do this, but there it is, I did it.

10 Can we call 65 ter document 01128 relating to the events of the

11 5th of July, 1995.

12 Q. Can you see this document dated 5th July 1995? Since I got this

13 as part of the evidence accompanying your testimony --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this the document on the screen?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what is your question?

17 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry for the intervention, but the translation

18 that appears on the screen isn't the document that appears in

19 Serbo-Croatian on the screen. And I'm trying to do this by way of

20 assistance, but I think if you go to page 4 you may see the original

21 version of the translation that is in front of you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for that clarification.

23 MS. EDGERTON: It's either 3 or 4. As you've seen, Your Honours,

24 my math isn't the best.

25 It's a problem, we realise, when we're dealing with discreet

Page 2371

1 documents from large investigative files, Your Honour, and we've been in

2 contact with Mr. Registrar about how to fix this problem in the future.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Can you see, after this on-site investigation report of the 7th of

5 July --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We still don't have the English translation, but

7 in the interests of time, let us proceed with the B/C/S.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Well done. The English translation is of excerpts

9 of the document, the B/C/S document, that appears on the right-hand side.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand it. The layout is different,

11 entirely different.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe I spoke again too quickly.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, first we need to be sure that the B/C/S is

14 the right one and then we'll search for the English.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps Mr. Tapuskovic can indicate the page number

16 that he wants in B/C/S and then we might be able to cross-reference the

17 translation properly.

18 At this point, Mr. Tapuskovic, if you give the ERN number, that

19 would also help.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 03307952 and 953, and the next

21 one, 954. Then follows the criminal report against Radovan Karadzic,

22 Ratko Mladic, and Dragomir Milosevic.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Okay. We have the document that Mr. Tapuskovic

24 wants. That's at page 16, and there is no translation of that document

25 he's asked for. So we have the right B/C/S document that he wants and I

Page 2372

1 hope we can move forward with that.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this the document now, the one that's on the

3 screen?

4 MS. EDGERTON: The B/C/S document is on the screen. It bears the

5 ERN number Mr. Tapuskovic asked for.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Since I got this document in relation to your testimony, in the

9 certificate that is before you, it is said that: "Milutin Cevriz arrived

10 at our institution on 5 July 1995, at 2000 hours. He is under reference

11 number 276. The aforesaid person was injured by the explosion of a shell

12 at the Square of Heroes/Trg Heroja."

13 Do you remember that incident?

14 A. Yes, of course I do. That gentleman was, indeed, injured by a

15 shell explosion.

16 Q. That happened on the 5th of July; correct? That incident that he

17 recounted in which he was injured was on the 5th of July.

18 A. From what I know, it did.

19 Q. Was that a time of very fierce fighting between the army of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina and the army of Republika Srpska?

21 A. I would say that the summer of 1995 was the most intensive

22 summer. Everybody knows that. 1995, I mean.

23 Q. Are you aware of the offensive and the fighting in June and July

24 that was very intensive and that there was fire from both sides?

25 A. I know that in the summer of 1995 Sarajevo, as a whole and the

Page 2373

1 municipality I was in, was exposed to great shelling and sniping. I

2 worked at the police. I had nothing to do with military activities and I

3 know little about military activities. All I know is what happened in the

4 Novo Sarajevo municipality in the summer of 1995, which was a period of

5 intensive shelling and sniping.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we move to page 2 of this

7 document. 03307953. Can we turn to the next page, please. Yes.

8 Q. Do you see this page?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. We see the date here, and all the references here are about armed

11 conflict. And next to all these names, let us look at, for instance,

12 number 11, Milutin Cevriz, as a part of the total of 17 persons who were

13 injured or killed in armed conflict, but next to each of these names we

14 see the words "armed conflict," "armed conflict," "armed conflict."

15 Can we assume that all of the people listed here were, in fact,

16 casualties of that armed conflict that ranged that whole day, because we

17 see a list of 17 people here. Next to each name it says "armed conflict,"

18 "armed conflict," "armed conflict." Were these people killed or wounded

19 as part of the armed conflict?

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I would ask my friend to put some

21 context to this document. It has no heading; it has no information

22 about location and, in fact, there is not a single name on this document

23 that appears in any of the other the forensic investigative documents

24 dealing with this incident. So perhaps if he could provide us with some

25 further information, otherwise, Your Honours, it's just seems to be a

Page 2374

1 question in the air. .


3 Lay a foundation, Mr. Tapuskovic. Avail yourself of the break for

4 that purpose.

5 We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.10 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 3.29 p.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, was the month of July a period marked by intense fighting

11 between the two armies?

12 A. As a forensic officer, I remember the month of July of 1995 as a

13 very difficult period where the Novo Sarajevo municipality where I worked

14 was under fire. Since I was a forensic officer and not a military person,

15 I cannot testify about whether the period was marked by fierce fighting

16 between the two armies.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The document I have before me is

18 not the document that I obtained, but I got it from the OTP, and I said

19 that this was 65 ter 01128.

20 I was wrong in not numbering the pages of the document, and that

21 was why it took us so long to find the document.

22 Q. Witness, according to the document that I received from the

23 Prosecution, which you have now before you, the certificate before was

24 dated the 30th of November. It is issued by the Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Institute for Urgent Medical documentation.

Page 2375

1 According to this document, one person was killed on the 17th of July.

2 And it is stated, with regard to 13 persons, that on the 2nd of July up to

3 the 5th of July, all these persons were, in fact, wounded in that period.

4 It is stated on what date they were wounded and at what time, and

5 it is always indicated that they were wounded in the armed conflict. It

6 doesn't say which armed conflict, and my question for you is: In your

7 view, is this, in fact, the month that proved to be very difficult for you

8 as well as the police force in general?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, now having heard the foundation and

11 what this document purports to relate to, I would object to the question

12 on the basis of relevance. It's the dealing with a time period and people

13 who do not appear to be connected in any way to the incident that

14 Mr. Hasanefendic is being cross-examined about.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: But it is related to the period within the

16 indictment, and we have had evidence concerning months in which there were

17 very heavy casualties.

18 I'll allow the question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document that I see in front of

20 me is not something I'm aware of it. I don't know what this is about. Of

21 all these names and if we could look at the bottom of the document, I'm

22 only familiar with the person named Milutin Cevriz under number 11. This

23 person, according to our knowledge --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. The witness has said he doesn't know

25 anything about the document and the only person he knows is Milutin

Page 2376

1 Cevriz. Perhaps we should hear what you know about Milutin Cevriz.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person was wounded in the -- in

3 a shelling incident on which I worked. I investigated the case, together

4 crime inspector and a bomb squad technician. He was a casualty at the

5 Square of Heroes; and as far as we know, he was taken to the hospital and

6 was wounded in -- whilst working, or rather, whilst attending to his

7 garden. And that's the only thing I know about the person.

8 I have him in my notes on the basis of the crime police

9 inspector's notes who worked with eye-witnesses. I suppose that the

10 document from the emergency ward is the document that was sent to the

11 crime police inspector in order to complete his file.

12 That is only thing I can tell you on the basis of his name.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You state that this gentleman, in this armed conflict that was

15 intensive and happening every day, that this particular person died while

16 attending his vegetable garden. Is that what you're saying?

17 A. I claim that he was wounded in an area where there was this

18 improvised garden of sorts, and I also said that it was a common

19 occurrence of the time where people would plant their own vegetable

20 gardens. They would also use the seeds that they received through

21 humanitarian aid, and this was no uncommon occurrence. And on the Square

22 of Heroes, Trg Heroja, there was a large green area where many people

23 plant the their gardens. I cannot state this with certainty, but I

24 suppose he was doing just that.

25 Q. Is it your statement that he himself was targeted, that a sniper,

Page 2377

1 a member of the army of Republika Srpska, had set his sites particularly

2 on him. Because you see on this list it is stated that all of the persons

3 listed there were wounded during the armed conflict?

4 A. I repeat that I don't know the document and why it says armed

5 conflict and that the person was injured during the armed conflict. I

6 absolutely stand by what I said, that the person was wounded in that area

7 in this improvised garden. The Square of Heroes was shelled on a daily

8 basis. Now, how his wounding came about, I don't know. I can only tell

9 you that we investigated the impact, the shelling impact.

10 The shell did not hit the ground. It hit the -- the fence of

11 balcony there. There were people seated there, but they were only shell

12 shocked. None of them were wounded. This gentleman was wounded by

13 shrapnel that ricochetted against the balcony there. The gentleman was

14 immediately taken to the emergency ward, and we didn't see him there,

15 which was only natural. People would first be taken for treatment and

16 only later would inspectors approach them to take their statements.

17 Q. You are, therefore, stating quite the opposite, that none of these

18 persons were wounded as the result of the armed conflict taking place

19 during that month?

20 A. The only thing I'm claiming is with regard to Milutin Cevriz,

21 there person listed here under number 11. I can tell you that he was

22 wounded as a civilian in his garden on the Square of Heroes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your evidence on that point is clear.

24 Next question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be marked for

Page 2378

1 identification? I will probably try to collect other evidence.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It already can come in as a exhibit in my view.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But if you only want to have the marked for

6 identification, then so be it. Do you want it as an exhibit?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was reluctant to propose that,

8 but in fact we would like to tender it as an exhibit. That's 65 ter

9 01128.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will admit it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As D69, Your Honours.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Is my friend referring to this page or is he

13 referring to the whole file that is found at 65 ter number 1128?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It should be this page. This page. Yes, the

15 particular page.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask my case

17 manager to call on to our screens map P232.

18 Q. Witness, do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. A moment ago you placed some markings on it, and with the red line

21 you marked the area of responsibility of the army of Republika Srpska; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right. I marked the area of responsibility of the

24 army of Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Can you tell us, as we see it, the area of responsibility of the

Page 2379

1 army of Republika Srpska was surrounded on three sides by the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 A. When we look at it in this image, then this is the case. But if

4 we zoomed out, then the case would be quite the opposite. Do you get my

5 meaning?

6 Q. I'm just waiting. That is exactly my intention, to zoom out. The

7 green area we see at the bottom of the map, which lies behind the area of

8 responsibility, is that Debelo Brdo?

9 A. If you're referring to the green area to the right-hand side?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I marked the entire area of Grbavica 1 and 2; the entire area of

12 Vrace Brdo, and the area leading to the Jewish cemetery, because Debelo

13 Brdo is right behind the Jewish cemetery. Therefore, next to my red line

14 where I marked the territory under the control of the Serb army, this

15 should be to the right of that line. That's Debelo Brdo.

16 Q. Could you please mark Debelo Brdo for us.

17 MS. EDGERTON: In a different colour pen, if it isn't already,

18 please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in on the bottom

20 right side of the photograph.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I believe the photograph is quite appropriate. Why would you like

23 to us zoom in?

24 A. Because I wouldn't want to make a mistake. I know that Debelo

25 Brdo is next to the Jewish cemetery, and believe me, I can't locate the

Page 2380

1 Jewish cemetery on this image.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, given the issues about the clarity

3 and the resolution in this image on the computer earlier on, I could

4 propose that we move to the higher resolution picture that we have here

5 that might assist the witness in his markings and to be able to identify

6 features. He's just said he is unsure and doesn't want to make a mistake.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I disagree.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just wait a moment.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, I believe that since he has been

12 working on this map he should continue working with it.

13 Do your best.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I will do my best.

15 Let us look at the original image that we had, because this has

16 been zoomed in a bit. I need the entire photograph, just as we had it a

17 moment ago.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't believe

19 that we should proceed the way the witness wants.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, my submission would be that if it's a

21 matter of clarity and accuracy, and the witness has asserted he feels he

22 can be more accurate with the picture presented to him in another format,

23 that's exactly what we should be doing.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And he asked for the entire photograph.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend

Page 2381

1 found this image quite clear at the time the witness was plotting certain

2 matters into the marks. I find the image quite satisfactory. I want him

3 now to plot in some blue lines next to the red lines that he had already

4 marked.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness and Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll stick to the

7 same photograph, the very same photograph. If the witness can't identify

8 it and he says that he can't identify it, then so be it. The Chamber will

9 assess it. So, Witness, it is for you to determine whether you wish to

10 seek to identify it in those circumstances.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, can I just add that you can put another

12 map to him or a better map, if you want to -- if you want to have the

13 witness identify where Debelo Brdo is.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There is no better map for the

15 matter in hand, with the lines already drawn. There is absolutely no

16 better map. No map could possibly be better, especially since this is the

17 same map that the Prosecutor used previously. All I wish to cross-examine

18 the witness on is this particular map. Should that prove impossible,

19 well, then, I wouldn't know what else to do. This map is perfect. It

20 gives a great overview of all the important positions in the area. I

21 really see no reason to seek a different map now and make things difficult

22 for everybody.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us move on. We've been wasting time. As I

24 told you, if you are unable to identify it, then say so and we'll move

25 on. Just give us your reasons and it's for the Chamber to make an

Page 2382

1 assessment of that, in light of the evidence.

2 Are you in a position to identify it?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am. I'll oblige. I just

4 thought it might be a good idea to get the resolution up a little bit, but

5 this is no problem at all.

6 The Debelo Brdo area is near the Jewish cemetery, which should be

7 right here in this photograph, as far as I know.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Your next question.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just for clarity, have you identified the Jewish

10 cemetery or have you identified Debelo Brdo?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have identified the Debelo Brdo

12 area.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You do know, Witness, don't you, that the Jewish cemetery was not

15 being held by the Serb forces alone. There were BH army units there, too.

16 Please, can you indicate exactly where the Jewish cemetery is.

17 A. That should be quite easy. The Jewish cemetery --

18 MS. EDGERTON: Before we do that are there two questions in

19 sentence or is the only question as to the location of the Jewish

20 cemetery.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have asked two question, Mr. Tapuskovic. The

22 first one was whether the witness knows that the Jewish cemetery was being

23 held by the Serb forces alone.

24 Witness, what is your answer to that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the entire area of

Page 2383

1 Jewish cemetery was under the control of the Serb forces. As for where

2 exactly the confrontation line ran through the Jewish cemetery, that is

3 not something that I can address.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I asked you to show us the Jewish cemetery first; pinpoint the

6 location, please.

7 A. All right. Number 4 means the Vrbanja bridge and the Jewish

8 cemetery should be just passed the Vrbanja bridge, this area over here.

9 So a little to the right. You can erase this blue circle here. So this

10 circle should be further to the right and then it would end up

11 encompassing the Jewish cemetery area. It is exactly between the Kovacici

12 neighbourhood and Sol Kobuna [phoen].

13 MS. EDGERTON: Well, can we do that then? The witness has just

14 asked to erase a blue circle and make a circle further to the right and

15 then it would end up encompassing the Jewish cemetery area exactly between

16 a certain neighborhood and Sol Kobuna. SO I think he has asked for a

17 correction to be made on the map, which he --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: He didn't really ask for that. He said just said

19 so this circle should be further to the right. So I took it that the

20 evidence will be read in that way, but if you wish --

21 Witness, do you wish to have the circle moved further to the

22 right?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did ask for

24 this circle to be erased, because I would like to have it moved a little

25 to the right to encompass the Jewish cemetery.

Page 2384

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's do that.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Therefore, the exact location, the

3 entire area of the Jewish cemetery should be to the right of the Vrbanja

4 bridge, right here; more specifically, this entire area there. As to the

5 confrontation line, I think it ran right through the Jewish cemetery, down

6 the middle of the Jewish cemetery, but I never went there myself.

7 Q. Thank you very much. At any rate, what you have just shown is the

8 fact that the Jewish cemetery, for the most part, is in the territory

9 covered by the BH army, maybe a very small portion of it remains in the

10 territory under the control of the Serb forces; is that right?

11 A. You see, we look at this red line that I drew on the right-hand

12 side. That is precisely why I said I could use a bigger map, so that I

13 could draw for you on a house-to-house basis what the Serb territory was

14 and what the BH army territory was with greater accuracy. The Jewish

15 cemetery - it's difficult to see - but I think it was right here in this

16 area of responsibility. But the entire Jewish cemetery area was under the

17 control of the army of Republika Srpska.

18 Where was the confrontation line, I don't know exactly. I was no

19 soldier myself. I was a forensic officer, a forensic technician. I

20 wasn't even able to go there; only the military could. I don't want to be

21 misunderstood on this. I'm not saying that the Jewish cemetery was in

22 territory controlled by the BH army; that is definitely not true. If you

23 want me to be more specific, get a bigger map. I'll draw the exact areas

24 for you on a bigger map, if you like, and I will try to be as specific as

25 I can. The entire area stretched from the Vrbanja bridge, across the

Page 2385

1 Borak neighbourhood, and onwards.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The drawings that you have been making throughout

3 your evidence, are they not meant to be approximations?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. What I said is this is the

5 Jewish cemetery area, but it's very difficult to be positive about the

6 confrontation line using this photograph.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. At any rate, what you have just drawn for us shows that the Jewish

9 cemetery was in territory covered by the BiH army. Only a small section

10 of it is in territory covered by the army of Republika Srpska. It barely

11 touches their territory. Could we say that, based on this image?

12 A. What I said is I didn't know the exact confrontation line through

13 the Jewish cemetery. I was not a member of the armed forces. I was never

14 physically there. Jewish cemetery is an area which was crossed by the

15 confrontation line. Truth to tell, I don't know how I find myself

16 answering these questions since I was never there to begin with.

17 Secondly, needless to say, I think the confrontation line was

18 there. Obviously, part of the Jewish cemetery could have fallen under the

19 BiH army and another part perhaps under the Serb forces. I don't know how

20 line shifted, but I know that by and large the Jewish cemetery was under

21 the control of the Serb army, as well as those streets over there,

22 Trbelica Street and all those other streets. Those were under the control

23 of the Serb forces.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a moment, please.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2386

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. Please proceed.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You've marked the map, Witness, and we've heard this from several

4 other witnesses. I'm about to ask you: Debelo Brdo was a BH army

5 military position, was it not?

6 A. Again, I was not a member of the BH army; I was a member of the

7 police. I never in my life set foot on Debelo Brdo. I am know longer

8 sure how to try answering your question.

9 Back in 1992 was Debelo Brdo under the control of the Serb forces

10 or under the control of the BH army back in 1993? The simple answer is, I

11 don't know. It wasn't my job to know that.

12 Q. Coming back to your personal details. You were born in Sarajevo

13 on the 21st of January, 1975; yet you say that you never set foot on

14 Debelo Brdo. Born and bred in Sarajevo, sir, can that be true?

15 A. It is precisely for that reason that I ended up never going there.

16 If you ask anybody else, anybody of Sarajevo's resident, there was no

17 need. We would take trips to Jahorina, Bjelasnica, Trebevic. But beyond

18 Trebevic, I never set foot on Debelo Brdo in my entire life, and something

19 else before that. Before the war, I may not have been aware of the fact

20 that it was called Debelo Brdo to begin with.

21 Q. If you stand in downtown Sarajevo, you can practically reach for

22 it with your hand. I spent sometime there as a child. I remember that

23 very clearly. Isn't it true that if you are somewhere from Marindvor, it

24 is in the palm of your hand practically? The hill over looks the whole of

25 Sarajevo, the whole downtown Sarajevo, for all practical intents.

Page 2387

1 A. You're quite right, geographically speaking, that here it is

2 clearly visibly. Before you war, I simply was not aware of its name. I

3 didn't know it was called Debelo Brdo. I had never been there before or

4 after. Most of Sarajevo's natives were probably more familiar with Hum

5 and not with Debelo Brdo, but that's a different matter.

6 Q. You marked that using number 6 and 7, and we'll be getting to that

7 at a later stage.

8 Can you tell me this, sir: Have you ever been to Mojmilo?

9 A. Of course I have. Mojmilo and Dobrinja, several times.

10 Q. What about this ridge, Mojmilo. How long is it? Maybe you don't

11 know. I know because I asked specifically. It's nearly three kilometres

12 long the ridge, isn't it?

13 A. I assume you mean Mojmilo hill, right?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I have no idea. I really have no idea how long it might be. You

16 say three kilometres. I suppose you've double-checked. I simply don't

17 know.

18 Q. I understand why you are reluctant to say anything very specific,

19 but you marked this point as number 5 [as interpreted] and that was the

20 position most severely affected by the shelling. Is that right, sir?

21 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Number 5 was not Mojmilo

22 according to the witness's evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that what Mr. Tapuskovic was putting? I

24 thought he had moved away from that.

25 What are you putting to the witness?

Page 2388

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wasn't saying

2 that. I wasn't saying that number 5 was Mojmilo. What I was say is

3 something that the witness had said in answer to one of the questions by

4 the Prosecutor that the area marked as number 5 was a frequent target for

5 the shelling.

6 Q. Is that right?

7 A. I marked the Square of Heroes as number 5. This was a

8 municipality, an area in Sarajevo, and this was most frequently targeted

9 by the Serb shells and snipers. This was the former Perako Sanco [phoen]

10 Square, and now it is called the Square of Heroes.

11 Q. Now, you've said this, and now that you told us that you had been

12 to Mojmilo, wouldn't Mojmilo be just opposite this area that you marked as

13 number 5? The entire length of Mojmilo stretches just behind this area.

14 Can you confirm that, sir?

15 A. I'll put it like this. Behind this area, what we find is not

16 Mojmilo but Hrasno hill, which stretches all the way to Lukavica. What

17 you see behind the area marked as number 5 is Hrasno hill. Once you cross

18 that hill, you reach the centre of Lukavica. Mojmilo hill is all the way

19 to the left from this perspective, near the Mojmilo settlement or

20 neighbourhood. What you see behind this area here is Hrasno Brdo, which

21 is a really lovely hill, right there in Sarajevo. If you want me to, I

22 can mark it for you.

23 So I said this X above number 5, left from the football stadium

24 Zelesnica is called Hrasno hill.

25 Q. Mark it.

Page 2389

1 A. Here it is. All this is Hrasno hill. Now, if we would take a

2 turn around the hill and went all around the hill, we would reach the

3 centre of Lukavica.

4 Q. What I'm interested in is this: This hill, too, is an area where

5 the ABiH was deployed, because it's in that area. That hill overlooks the

6 area marked by 5.

7 A. On that hill, on that hill called Hrasno, there also existed a

8 demarcation line. People in Sarajevo know about streets, Milinklacka and

9 Ozrenska, where a part of the hill near the stadium was also held by the

10 Serb army throughout the war. I would particularly stress those streets,

11 Milinklacka and Ozrenska street. That is to the best of my knowledge.

12 Q. I'm asking you to confirm again, because I think you've already

13 confirmed it, that this hill, Hrasno, was held, according to the red line

14 you have already marked, by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 A. I'll have to say this again: There was a demarcation line on that

16 hill as well. One part of the hill was held by the BH army; the other

17 part of the hill was held by the Serb army.

18 Q. Could you now show us where this demarcation line was.

19 A. From what I know, through my job in the police and through all the

20 information that was available to me, at the stadium that we see here

21 there was nobody. It was a clear area. And where exactly this

22 demarcation line ran, I think it ran just above the Zelesnica football

23 stadium, but through which streets I really don't know. But that's where

24 the demarcation line was.

25 Q. Did it run through Dobrinja?

Page 2390

1 A. Dobrinja is 7 kilometres away from the area we are looking at.

2 Q. I'm sorry, but if we want to reach Lukavica, this top of the hill

3 was held by the BH army, the one that you marked with the cross.

4 A. I really don't know whether the BH army held the top of the hill.

5 I've never been there. I know approximately where the demarcation line

6 ran; above the football stadium, across the Samac hill. But what was

7 exactly held by the BH army, you would have to ask somebody from the BH

8 army.

9 Q. And who held Samac hill?

10 A. I think that the demarcation line ran even through the Samac or

11 Sarac hill, but that's not something that I can confirm. You would have

12 to ask somebody who was in the BH army or possibly the Serb army.

13 Q. And further there is the ridge of Mojmilo, to the left.

14 A. Yes, you would have to go left. But before you reach Mojmilo, you

15 have to go across two other hills. Public transportation goes across

16 those hills, Svrakina Selo and Aneks. There are some private houses

17 there, family houses. If you say that it was 3 kilometres long, it sounds

18 like an exaggeration to me. But that's where Mojmilo is, quite far from

19 this place.

20 Q. But all these three hills that you mentioned were in the area of

21 responsibility of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army.

22 A. Hrasno hill was in the areas of responsibility of both the BH army

23 and the Serb army; I'm saying this for the third time. The demarcation

24 line ran through Hrasno. Debelo Brdo, to the best my knowledge, was under

25 the control of the Serb army at the beginning of the war, and I'm hearing

Page 2391

1 from you for the first time now that maybe the BH army held part of it.

2 Maybe there was a demarcation line there as well. And Vrace hill was

3 definitely under the control of the Serb army. There are the villages of

4 Petrovici, Milivici, in that vicinity; they were definitely under the

5 control of the Serb army.

6 Q. Witness, I did not ask you about the situation at the beginning of

7 the war. I'm asking you about the time for which Dragomir Milosevic was

8 indicted, which was August 1994, and I'm taking you back to this hill

9 again. Even there was a demarcation line running through it, the top of

10 the hill was held by the BH army - and that's what I'm putting to you -

11 and all these hills, all the way to the end, all the hills you enumerated,

12 were under the control of the BH army.

13 A. As for the top of Hrasno hill, I really don't know. I cannot

14 answer that question. You have to understand that only army people had

15 access to that area. I don't know where the demarcation line ran through

16 Debelo Brdo. Aneksi and Strakina Selo were, indeed, under the BH army

17 control and the institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina. As for Hrasno, I

18 know that part of it was held by ABiH and another part by the Serb forces.

19 Q. And all the other hills we mentioned were held by the army of

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that what you just said?

21 A. Yes. I mentioned Svrakino Selo, Aneks, Mojmilo, Velesici,

22 Pofalici that you see under number 6 and 7. Those are the hills covered

23 by populated areas. People live there.

24 Q. I don't want to take much more of the Trial Chamber's time. This

25 area under 6 and 7, all this was under the control of the BH army,

Page 2392

1 including Hum, Zuc, and a number of other hills, all of them higher than

2 800 metres; is that correct?

3 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. Once again, I think there is a couple of

4 questions actually in this that perhaps are best answered separately or

5 put to the witness separately.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is: The area under 6 and 7 was

7 under the control of the BH army, including Hum, Zuc, and a number of

8 other hills, all of them higher than 800 metres.

9 If you want to separate that, then you could answer the first

10 one. Were they under the control of the BH army?

11 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honours, I think that implies that

12 Hum and Zuc were in the areas marked as 6 and 7.


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the areas that I marked with 6

15 and 7, Velesici, Pofalici, and the hill Hum in the continuation of that

16 line, were indeed under the control of the BH army. There was fierce

17 fighting at Zuc. Whether the BH army controlled Zuc, I don't know, and I

18 don't know up to where they controlled it. I know they controlled one

19 part. And in conclusion, I'm not aware that these hills are higher than

20 800 metres, because I never checked.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. There was fighting around Zuc, but in 1992. However, in 1994 and

23 1995, it was only BH army forces that were concentrated there and they

24 controlled the entire Sarajevo from that side; is that correct?

25 A. On Zuc hill, I don't know what kind of positions the BH army held

Page 2393

1 and what positions were held by the Serb army. I know Zuc hill was

2 characterised by fierce fighting, but I really don't know where the army

3 of Bosnia and Herzegovina was, although I was never their member and I

4 never visited those demarcation lines. There were only members of BH army

5 units who had proper military service books and who were assigned there.

6 I worked in the forensic department of the Ministry of the

7 Interior in the Security Services of the Novo Sarajevo municipality, and

8 my policeman's job never took me to the trenches at Hrasno, Zuc, or anyone

9 where else. I really cannot provide with you any information about the

10 positions of military forces at Zuc and Hrasno hills.

11 Q. Just tell me, in conclusion, what we see on this map, from this

12 side of the red line until the top of the map, was it all under the BH

13 army control?

14 A. What we see on this picture, this area, it's not the entire

15 municipality of Novo Sarajevo. As I said at the beginning of my

16 testimony, it is only a part of Novo Sarajevo. And what we see and what I

17 marked above the red line, as you say, was entirely under the control of

18 the BH army. But if you went further down, it was no longer under the BH

19 army control.

20 This depicts only part of Novo Sarajevo municipality. Hrasno,

21 Pofalici, Velesici, Marshal Tito Barracks, Vrace hill, and towards the

22 centre towards Marindvor. We don't see Dolac-Malta. We don't see all of

23 Pofalici, which divides into upper and lower. We don't see all of

24 Velesici either. What we see on this photograph above the red line, that

25 was indeed under BH army control.

Page 2394

1 Q. Thank you. I don't want it deal with this map any longer, but

2 turn around to face this large map here.

3 First, look at the centre where it says, "1st Corps. " Right, in

4 that blue circle. Were all the hills within that circle under the

5 control -- were they all under the control of the BH army?

6 A. I would really have to approach the map to look carefully.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, the witness as reiterated and

8 re-reiterated that his job in the police force didn't take him to the

9 front lines. How on earth could be in a position to say which hills or

10 elevations were under the control of the Bosnian army?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's for him to say.

12 Are you in a position to do what you're being asked by counsel?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is the fourth time I'm

14 saying it. I worked in the forensic department of the police, and what

15 the esteemed counsel is asking me is something that I cannot answer with

16 any certainty. Where were the demarcations lines? Where were the

17 positions of BH army?

18 If you find a witness, who was earlier a member of the BH army, he

19 will certainly be able to tell you. As for residential areas and Novo

20 Sarajevo where I worked as a scene of crime officer and I went out into

21 the field, that is something that I can speak about.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: In those circumstances, the proper course is for

23 you to say -- for you to decline to say to answer, to say you're not in a

24 position to say. And that's the end of the matter.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. But I have said it four

Page 2395

1 times.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you have not said it with sufficient clarity,

3 because you have gone on to identify on several occasions various

4 locations.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke of locations where I visited

6 and moved around as a scene of crime officer, but I always stated for the

7 record that I never went to the demarcation line between the BH army and

8 the VRS. The areas where I was able to move and where I conducted on-site

9 investigations are areas that I'm familiar with. I don't know about any

10 other matters.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: More on to another area of questioning,

12 Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. As a police inspector and a native of Sarajevo, do you know where

15 Butmir airport is? Can you at least show us Butmir airport on the map

16 behind you.

17 A. Of course I know where Butmir airport is. Butmir airport is in

18 the so-called airport neighbourhood next to Dobrinja, but that was not my

19 area of work. I think it belongs to Ilidza municipality or perhaps Novi

20 Grad.

21 Q. Can you show it on this map behind you.

22 A. I'll try, although I've never seen this map before, but I will try

23 to locate Butmir airport.

24 Here, in this area, is where it should be. But we can't really

25 see it because it's covered by red. That's where the airport is. I've

Page 2396

1 just shown where Butmir airport in Sarajevo is located.

2 Q. Do you know that next to the airport at this point in time, the

3 time we're talking about, August 1994, November 1995, there was a tunnel

4 that was used? Is this something that you're familiar with?

5 A. Of course I am. Anyone from Sarajevo knew about that. This was a

6 tunnel that was Sarajevo's only link to the outside world. I personally

7 never crossed that tunnel. I can confirm that I was familiar with its

8 existence, as anyone would.

9 Q. Do you know that every day battalions passed through that tunnel,

10 BH army battalions, on their way in from Herzegovina? On their missions,

11 they would leave, they would go on other missions, and then take the same

12 tunnel back into Sarajevo. Are you familiar with that, sir?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, are you familiar with that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never took the tunnel myself. I

15 have no information to indicate whether it was used by the army or not.

16 How frequently it was used and by how many soldiers specifically, I don't

17 know. I spent most of the war, most of the time in 1994 and 1995, in

18 Sarajevo municipality, Novo Sarajevo municipality --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the downtown area. I never

21 ventured that far throughout the war.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In chief, you testified that you never saw a single heavy weapon

24 in Sarajevo, didn't you, or anything else with the possible exception of

25 rifles and pistols? Did you see any heavy weapons deployed inside

Page 2397

1 Sarajevo, sir?

2 A. As far as my experience goes, I stand by my previous answer which

3 was in relation to mortars. I never saw any mortars or heavy weapons in

4 Sarajevo. What did I see? Light automatic weapons and several police

5 APCs. Quite rarely, though. Therefore, I can say that I never laid eyes

6 on any form of heavy weapons inside Sarajevo.

7 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, on page 138, line 9, the witness was

8 never asked in chief whether he saw heavy weapons in Sarajevo.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for the clarification.

10 Mr. Tapuskovic, you should be coming to the end of your

11 cross-examination now.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely my intention.

13 I had lots of documents that I was going to use, but I've decided to drop

14 most of them.

15 The next document, DD00-0757, that's my next document, the one

16 that I've got lined up for the witness. It's a document that I obtained

17 from the BH archive. Before I come to grips with that, I would like to

18 ask the witness:

19 Q. If the police, that is, his own units and primarily the Bosna

20 unit, had any serious weapons. I'm saying "serious weapons" in order not

21 to exaggerate.

22 A. I can say that in my own police station the crime squad people had

23 their pistols, their official weapons that they signed for. The police

24 were wearing uniforms at the time throughout the city. They would

25 normally carry a pistol and an automatic rifle, a Heckler Koch or perhaps

Page 2398

1 a Kalashnikov, depending. As to the Bosna unit --

2 MS. EDGERTON: We need a few minutes because I have to wait until

3 transcript and translation catch up, but I question the foundation in this

4 case, because where I would submit -- how would the witness be in a

5 position to answer what weapons the Bosna unit has had or has, had at the

6 time, when he's given no evidence about the Bosna unit. Perhaps the

7 question could be rephrased.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I think he can answer that. I think he can

9 answer it from his experience.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer.

11 As to the Bosna unit, I was in no sort of contact with the special

12 unit named Bosna, nor did I know at the time what sort of weapons they

13 were carrying. All I was saying was in relation to the Novo Sarajevo

14 police station because that was my personal experience. So much from me

15 as concerns the Bosna unit.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. But that unit, the Bosna unit, that's what it was called, wasn't

18 it? This was a special unit of the MUP, the best-trained unit, the

19 best-trained police unit, was it not?

20 A. That is quite right. That's why there were called special MUP

21 units. It was nicknamed the Bosna unit. It was put together after the

22 Serb specialists and the first -- the Muslim and Croat specialists parted

23 ways at the outbreak of the war itself. What sort of weapons did they

24 have? I don't know. I was not a member. I can't say. I really don't

25 know. I never even worked with those people throughout the war. No sort

Page 2399

1 of police business at all was shared.

2 Q. So those were police units, police forces, of the former country

3 which became a part of the BH MUP later on, right?

4 A. This unit was always a special unit of the then-socialist Republic

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the former country. These people were police

6 officers. They were always members of this unit and they continued to be

7 just that in the war. They were special police units.

8 Q. In that case, I have one document for you.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please preserve the map

10 first, the map as it has been marked, as a Defence exhibit, please.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll exhibit it.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, unfortunately, we cannot exhibit it

14 because another document was published before we were able to capture the

15 image.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, as it has been explained to me by

18 those who have more learning in this matter, the document was on the

19 screen, you used it, but you never asked for it to be admitted, so the

20 officer removed it from the screen.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand it was your own case manager who put

23 on the next document.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would be willing

25 to drop all of my remaining questions if only the witness could please

Page 2400

1 have that map again and mark what he has already marked before. If we can

2 be granted time for that particular exercise, I would, in exchange, give

3 up all of my further questioning. For me, as Defence counsel, that map is

4 exceptionally important.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not proceeding on the basis of exchanges. If

6 you have proper questions to ask, the Court will allow that, and if it is

7 proper to have this replaced, then we'll do it.

8 Let us have it replaced and re-marked.

9 MS. EDGERTON: As we deal with that, Your Honour, I do recall I

10 was cautioned earlier on today by Your Honours as to the time I had used.

11 I was told it was two hours. I'm not sure whether or not that calculation

12 included Your Honours' questions and other objections, or it was -- it

13 didn't include that. But I'm also just noticing the time for this

14 cross-examination, unless I'm mistaken in my calculation, is --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's just about the same time that you used, yes.

16 There's nothing wrong with that.

17 MS. EDGERTON: No. I'm simply noting the time, Your Honours.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is a technical explanation to be given and

20 I think the court deputy is in a much better position than I am to offer

21 it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. I spoke

23 with the technician in the AV booth who did broadcast the image that was

24 marked by the witness, and because that image was broadcast, captured on

25 the tape, we can extract that from the videotape and have it uploaded into

Page 2401

1 the system. However, it won't be quite as clear, but it will be still be

2 legible. That's the explanation.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Therefore, we can mark it as an exhibit.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D70, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right.

6 Now, Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have more questions that are relevant

7 and pointed?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have two matters to raise.

9 Firstly, this document, D000-0757 -- that's the one, yes.

10 Q. Witness, can you see that? The document produced by the 12th

11 Division. The date is the 28th of March.

12 A. Of course I see it, but I do not realise what this has to do with

13 my job. Can you please explain? Would you be so kind? A SOCer, scene of

14 crime officer, what do I have to do with maps denoting all the positions

15 of the army of Republika Srpska? The Fikret Prevljak Brigade or any of

16 that.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not for you to ask questions. If the

18 questions are improper, the Chamber will rule them so.

19 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I'm somewhat confused. The

20 document I have, DD00-0757, is dated the 28th of March, 1995, and I just

21 need some clarification.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the date of this one?

23 MS. EDGERTON: I don't see any date noted on the transcript.

24 That's why I would like to be sure we're all referring to the same

25 document.

Page 2402

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's right there.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The one on the screen is marked the 28th of

3 March, 1995. That coincides with what you have.

4 Let's proceed, quickly. It's now 16 minutes to 5.00. Count-down.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, you say you never laid eyes on any serious weapons in

7 Sarajevo. That's why I'm asking. You didn't, did you?

8 A. No, I didn't. I never saw a serious weapon throughout the war

9 there, at least not in my area.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it -- do you mean heavy weapons or is it

11 "serious"?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mortars, mortars is what I mean.

13 There you go. A straightforward question. Mortars.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mortars then, yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw a single mortar

16 throughout the war, that is, I didn't.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. This is from the command of the 12th Division which covered

19 central Sarajevo, Commander Prevljak, about weapons being reassigned to a

20 different unit. It's an order, right? Can you see that, sir?

21 A. That's what it says.

22 Q. It says "Fikret Prevljak, Commander." Now please listen. "I

23 hereby order: Reassign 82-millimetre mortars from NSB 3 to the Bosna unit

24 of the MUP."

25 This is a serious weapon, you will agree, won't you, which is

Page 2403

1 hereby being assigned to the MUP, to one of its units. Did you at least

2 see this one serious weapon in your area? I suppose not all of your

3 investigations were about sniping, were they?

4 A. Again, I never saw a single heavy weapon throughout the war in the

5 areas in which I spent time.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this

8 exhibited.


10 MS. EDGERTON: Can we find out the difference between serious and

11 heavy weapons? The subject is coming up again.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We had it before, "serious," and I

13 suspected that what was meant was "heavy," "heavy weapon."

14 What is the term that you use in B/C/S? Could you use it so that

15 we have a proper interpretation of it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to my mind, this mortar that

17 we had been discussing and the mortar that we will be discussing for the

18 most part of this trial, I mean it's an exceptionally heavy. To my mind,

19 a mortar is an exceptionally serious weapon.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it seems to me, then, that you have

21 variously used "serious" and "heavy."

22 Continue.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think you are right, I have

24 been using the two. But even a pistol is a heavy weapon to my mind. Even

25 pistol can kill a human being.

Page 2404

1 What I would like to do now is to tender this as a Defence

2 exhibit, the document we've just used. If the Chamber could please admit

3 the document.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness did not confirm anything in relation

5 to it. So in accordance with the rules that we apply, it will not be

6 admitted.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Not even marked for

8 identification, Your Honours?

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

12 identification as D71.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: One more question, Mr. Tapuskovic. I think I

14 have been very lenient with you. Just one more question.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] DD00-0768. This is this

16 witness's statement dated the 16th of May, 2006. Just a very brief

17 paragraph from that statement. Second page. That paragraph. It begins

18 with the word "Snipers ..."

19 Q. Witness, does it read -- first of all, is this your statement?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. It reads: "Snipers shooting at the city would not stay in one

22 fixed position. The Bosnian army also had snipers."

23 Is that correct?

24 A. I personally never saw a single one.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Anti-snipers. Just correct that. In the English

Page 2405

1 version, it's anti-snipers.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I meant. It has

3 obviously been translated in a slightly different way that I --

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to understand this,

5 one needs to read the whole paragraph.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the question which you have in mind?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the question was: "Did the

8 Bosnian army, and primarily the MUP, have sniper weapons."

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to say whether the Bosnian

10 army and primarily the MUP have sniper weapons?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say that. The statement,

12 and this sentence here, were taken out of context. I never said that,

13 because I have never seen anything like it.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Never mind the statement. What is the answer to

15 the question that I have asked?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the answer to that

17 question is that I cannot provide any information about whether it's

18 Bosnian army had snipers because I don't know.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: If the Bosnian army also had anti-snipers, what

20 weapons would those anti-snipers use?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, and I must say

22 that happened very rarely because Serb snipers worked in a very

23 coordinated way as we were able to see from our on-site investigation,

24 the weapons that the Bosnian army could use against Serb snipers if they

25 observed any were automatic or semi-automatic weapons. I never saw a

Page 2406

1 single sniper, and I suppose they used automatic weapons for

2 counter-snipers.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We must conclude the

4 cross-examination now, and is there any re-examination?



7 Then, Mr. Hasanefendic, that concludes your testimony. Thank you

8 for giving it, and you may now leave.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And, in fact, the Chamber will adjourn the

12 hearing until Monday at 9.00 a.m.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.54 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of February,

15 2007, at 9.00 a.m.