Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2590

1 Wednesday, 21 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, continue your examination.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: Good morning, Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examination by Mr. Docherty: [Continued]

11 Q. Welcome back, Officer.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, before going on, I noted yesterday

13 that I did not tender ter number 129. That's the collection of

14 photographs that we spent some time on yesterday. I tender that at this

15 time.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P264, Your Honours.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: And then if I could please ask the court officer to

19 call up the chart that we ended the day on yesterday, which is ter number

20 145B.

21 Q. Officer, do you see this chart once again on the screen in front

22 of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yesterday, we noted that there were some dimensions on this

25 chart. Can you tell us, who took those measurements, and how; what tools

Page 2591

1 they used; how they made sure the measurements were accurate.

2 A. A colleague of mine, Salko Cerimagic, prepared this sketch because

3 it's impossible for person to do that due to the sizes. So the two of us

4 did it together and did these measurements.

5 Q. Is there a measurement there from the impact crater to the curb?

6 A. Yes, there is.

7 Q. And how far is it from the centre of the impact crater, which I

8 believe is the circled 1, to the curb?

9 A. I think it's about 1.90 metres or 1.85 metres.

10 Q. And is there also a dimension noted from the curb to the wall of

11 the building up against which those two bicycles were leaning?

12 A. They're not written here, but the distance is either 2.90 or 2.60.

13 Q. All right. And so a summing up of those dimensions would give us

14 the distance from the centre of the impact crater to the wall of the

15 building; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. When you add them up, it's either 4.60 or 4.50.

17 Q. Thank you. And at this time, Your Honour, also I will tender the

18 large photo montage, which is up behind the witness, for Your Honours to

19 consult later if a very detailed photograph is thought useful.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As P265, Your Honours.


23 Q. Officer, did you write a report concerning your work at Markale

24 market on the 28th of August, 1995?

25 A. Yes. We made the markings and prepared a short forensic report

Page 2592

1 giving a short description and the number of casualties or the dead people

2 who were processed in the morgue.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see 65 ter number 145B, e-court

4 page 2.

5 Q. And while we're waiting for that to come up, Officer, were efforts

6 made to identify those who had died at the scene?

7 A. Oh, you mean the dead persons? Though it wasn't impossible to do

8 it on the spot, but lots of papers were found on the location which we

9 photographed, and later on they were used for identification in the Kosevo

10 Hospital.

11 Q. Among the photographs that we put into evidence, are there

12 photographs of these identity documents, handbags, wallets, and so forth

13 that were found at Markale market?

14 A. Yes, a lot of identification papers and personal belongings were

15 found.

16 Q. On the page that is on the monitor in front of you, there is a

17 list of 35 names. Do you see that list of names?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What names are these? Whose names are these?

20 A. The names of the citizens who died as a result of this projectile,

21 and they were identified at the hospital.

22 Q. Is this is a complete list of all of those who eventually died

23 from this projectile?

24 A. No. Approximately another 30 persons succumbed to the injuries

25 that they had received.

Page 2593

1 Q. And so in addition to these 35, there are some additional names;

2 is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no further questions in direct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

6 Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and

8 thank you.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I am a Defence counsel of the

11 accused General Milosevic, and I would kindly ask you to give me answers

12 to certain questions that you already answered in response to the

13 Prosecutor's question and, if possible, to give me as brief answers as

14 possible in order for us to wrap up this cross-examination as soon as

15 possible.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness first be shown

17 document 65 ter 1484, tendered by the Defence under number D19.

18 Q. Let's first look at -- can you see page 1 and what is written

19 here:

20 "Sarajevo, 18 November 1994. With a single sniper shot fired at

21 around 1300 hours from the aggressor positions from the Metalka building

22 at Grbavica at the intersection of Zmaja od Bosne and Franje Rackog

23 Streets, a boy, Nermin Divovic, born in 1987, was fatally wounded in the

24 head, and his mother, Dzenana Sokolovic, received a serious wound to the

25 stomach."

Page 2594

1 My question is: You took part in the investigation relating to

2 this incident?

3 A. Yes. I assisted my colleague who was this charge, and given the

4 circumstances where it happened, the two of us were sent out to do the

5 on-site investigation.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at page 3. Yes,

7 page 3. Page 3, description of the event, yes.

8 Q. I'm going to read it out to you. In order for me not to read

9 everything, I will begin where it says:

10 "Nermin Divovic, a boy born in 1987, was fatally wounded while his

11 mother Dzenana Sokolovic," born on that and that year, "was seriously

12 wounded. The bullet passed through the boy's head and then seriously

13 wounded his mother in the stomach."

14 Is that what you established on the scene?

15 A. It was impossible to establish that on the scene because the

16 casualties were not there. We only came afterwards in order to carry out

17 the on-site investigation.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tapuskovic please turn off his

19 microphone while the witness is speaking; otherwise, there's overlapping.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... established in this

22 description --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreter has asked, Mr. Tapuskovic, that

24 you turn off the microphone while the witness is speaking; otherwise,

25 there is overlapping. And the witness is also protected.

Page 2595

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Witness, this report is not correct; right?

3 A. This report was made by an operative on the scene who collected

4 information from the people present on the spot. I didn't write this

5 report; neither did my colleague who carried out the investigation.

6 Q. But you did gather all physical evidence relating to this

7 incident, and what is written here was prepared based on the evidence,

8 among other things, based on medical record as well?

9 A. Yes, but the two of us didn't do it. Our task was to photograph

10 the scene, make a sketch thereof on the basis of the clues and the traces

11 that we found. That's our description. However, taking statements from

12 witnesses was not our duty. This refers to the processing of the scene by

13 a forensic technician. This applies to medical reports as well. This is

14 done by a forensic expert who prepares official reports.

15 Q. So this medical record served as a basis for your establishing the

16 facts?

17 A. Yes. In any case that's true, but this document is part of the

18 whole process and the procedure, and then later on it's forwarded to the

19 court.

20 Q. Can I please draw your attention to page 15 of this same 65 ter

21 document. Page 15.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I object. The witness has disavowed

23 knowledge of this report, has said that he did not prepare this report,

24 has said that his colleague did not prepare this report, and while I have

25 no objection to the witness being questioned about this incident, I do

Page 2596

1 have an objection to him being questioned on the basis of this report

2 which he has said he knows nothing of more than once in response to

3 counsel's questions.

4 So my objection is lack of foundation.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll hear the question.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just for a moment go into

8 private session, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2597

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. If I understood you correctly, you worked on collecting physical

17 evidence; right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Thereafter, the prosecutor's office in charge received everything

20 that you had gathered.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 15 of

23 this document, please. That's a criminal report.

24 Q. And you can see this criminal report sent to the prosecutor's

25 office. It's dated the 14th of December. So after a good two months and

Page 2598

1 after everything you did, according to the laws applicable in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, your team submitted -- filed a criminal report; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, but I wasn't involved in preparing this criminal report so I

5 know nothing about the date. Our exclusive duty was to prepare a photo

6 file, to make a sketch of the scene and the rest of it.

7 Q. It's only reasonable because it's within the competence of the

8 high prosecutor's office. But look at what it says here. It's a criminal

9 report against an unknown perpetrator. Look at the middle of the passage

10 of the statement of reasons. Let us begin with "Sarajevo" -- no, let's

11 start with "On this occasion ..." Can you see that? Can you see it?

12 "On this occasion, the bullet passed through the head of the child

13 Nermin Divovic, born 1987 in Sarajevo, and then seriously wounded his

14 mother Dzenana Sokolovic to the stomach."

15 Did the public prosecutor, based on your documents --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I do not speak B/C/S, but at least in

18 the English translation on the left-hand side of the screen, there is no

19 reference to a bullet passing through Nermin Divovic's head. It simply

20 says, and I quote: "A child, Nermin Divovic, born 1987 in Sarajevo, was

21 mortally wounded in the head, and Dzenana Sokolovic was seriously

22 wounded."

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that is what is in the English.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Of course, I am not competent to say what is in the

25 B/C/S, but I just point that out for purposes of the record.

Page 2599

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, may I just ask the interpreter to interpret

2 that sentence for us, from B/C/S into English.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot see the full line in the

4 B/C/S version. Yes.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can see it now.

6 THE INTERPRETER: "A sniper bullet was firing at the passers-by at

7 the intersection of Zmaja od Bosne and Franje Rackog Streets in Sarajevo,

8 on which occasion a child, Nermin Divovic, was fatally wounded in the head

9 - he was born in 1987 in Sarajevo - and seriously wounded Dzenana

10 Sokolovic, born 1966 in Sarajevo."

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's more or less consistent with what

12 was in English.

13 Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, since we both speak the same language, is what I read

16 correct as I read it?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And as it is written here, is there the words "passed through" in

19 the B/C/S version?

20 A. Yes. "... passed through the head of the child." It just says

21 part of the word, the first syllable of the word, and the rest is

22 missing. Can I read it?

23 "On that occasion the bullet fired pass the through ..."

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, in these circumstances, I'm minded to ask

Page 2600

1 the CLSS to ask for an authoritative translation of the words.

2 But before I do that, I'd like to find out, what is the direction

3 in which you are going? What is the purpose of your questioning? What do

4 you want to ask the witness about this? I allowed you to question him on

5 the report, but I've yet to see you establish its relevance.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Only to establish the truth,

7 whether what the Prosecutor says is true, which trajectory of the bullet

8 was, or what was established on the scene and what the Prosecutor ended in

9 filing criminal charges. I don't think that we need to seek assistance

10 either from the CLSS or from anyone else. Let the witness read and

11 confirm what it says in the B/C/S. The interpreter cannot translate this

12 so precisely as he can read it precisely, and then let the interpreters

13 translate.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I will not follow that course, because we

15 have official authoritative interpreters in this Tribunal, and if it comes

16 to that, then we'll ask the CLSS to provide an interpretation.

17 But the Prosecutor's objection came subsequent to our allowing you

18 to question the witness on this report. So this particular -- are you

19 saying that this particular question raised by the Prosecutor is the point

20 of your examination?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The point of my examination is

22 the fact that the child was hit first and then the mother and not the

23 other way around, first the mother and then the child. That is the point

24 of all of my work, of my entire effort to discuss this. That is the very

25 point.

Page 2601

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will instruct the court deputy to

3 have the CLSS provide an official translation of the relevant passage.

4 Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, because this

6 witness helped gather evidence, I would like the witness to go back to

7 page 4, if we could just please somehow conceal the fact that he was a

8 member of that team, keep it from being seen on our screens. That is page

9 4.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, page 4, then.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. There, Witness. Look at the very end of this long paragraph, the

13 longest on that page. I will read it out to you.

14 "Soon after the incident, two APCs came quickly from the UNPROFOR

15 French Battalion and parked on Franje Rackog Street on the pavement, the

16 registration plates being MFPU 15224 and 8448."

17 THE INTERPRETER: Note: The interpreters don't have the document

18 and can't see the portion that counsel is reading from. We didn't get the

19 numbers. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why is that? Let us wait for a few seconds to

21 see whether the interpreters now have it.

22 THE INTERPRETER: We have the relevant page now, Your Honour.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2602

1 Q. Is that what happened, Witness?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If necessary, I can read that, too, the next paragraph.

4 "There was a blood-stain on the spot where the woman and the boy

5 were wounded which members of UNPROFOR, who later arrived at the site,

6 washed with water and later covered with earth before the arrival of the

7 on-site investigation team."

8 Is that accurate? Is that what happened, sir?

9 A. I can't remember this particular detail. It wasn't a huge pool of

10 blood. It was just a very small blood-stain. I can't remember whether it

11 was washed away or covered.

12 Q. I'm putting it to you, Witness, that UNPROFOR certainly didn't do

13 that. Rather, this was something that was done by the members of your

14 team who then shifted the blame for this to UNPROFOR. That's what I'm

15 putting to you. What do you have to say, sir?

16 A. No, that's not possible, simply because that's quite a lot to do.

17 It was difficult to stay there for long. It was difficult to carry out

18 any investigations at all, even washing and covering, simply because there

19 was a lot of firing from behind the Metalka building; there was a lot of

20 sniper activity.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, counsel. If I understand you

22 correctly, you are implying that the witness was involved in falsification

23 of a public report. I think you have to have a solid foundation for

24 making that allegation, and I'm asking you to provide that foundation to

25 the Chamber.

Page 2603

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Either this was falsified,

2 fabricated, by UNPROFOR by destroying evidence or it was someone from the

3 witness's team. It has to be that. However, what I'm suggesting is that

4 UNPROFOR would never do anything like. What I'm suggesting is this was

5 done by the team that was in charge of the investigation and they then

6 shifted the blame for this to UNPROFOR. Be that as it may, whoever

7 destroyed evidence did precious little service to the course of justice

8 and the attainment of truth.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, my point is that you do not have the

10 right to imply that the witness has been involved in criminal activity

11 during your cross-examination. And it seems to me that by alleging that

12 the witness was involved in falsification of a public report or mingling

13 with the truth, you are very directly implying that the witness has

14 committed a crime against justice. So unless you have a strong foundation

15 that this was, in fact, the case, I suggest you drop that allegation.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Harhoff, what

17 I'm suggesting is that this means perverting the course of justice. I am

18 doing that in the clearest possible way and with the greatest possible

19 responsibility, simply because this is the only interpretation that

20 presents itself. And that precisely is my point. It would be even more

21 dreadful if the evidence had been destroyed by UNPROFOR, which is

22 something that I refuse to believe.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please proceed.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will not be lumbering this

25 witness with another document that the OTP got later on, after everything

Page 2604

1 that had occurred in connection with these events. We'll have sufficient

2 time to deal with that and with the medical certificate that the OTP

3 obtained through their investigators in Sarajevo, having questioned the

4 witness about that. But I will be dealing with that some other time. I

5 do not wish to waste any more of your precious time now.

6 Q. Witness, do you know anything about the incident that occurred on

7 the 21st of November, 1994, since you worked on sniping incidents, when a

8 shell landed in front of a tram or something? Do you remember that

9 incident where only the driver was injured?

10 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

11 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you know the range of a rifle-launched

12 grenade?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Since you know nothing about that, I won't be asking any further

15 questions. I do assume, however, that you're familiar with Sefer

16 Halilovic's book; he was the chief of the General Staff. I submitted this

17 for translation. I'm not sure when the translation will be ready. Just

18 several paragraphs. But have you read this book? It was published back

19 in 1998.

20 A. No, I haven't read the book.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be

23 asked to speak closer to the microphone. We can barely hear him.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, please move closer to the microphone.

25 The interpreters are having trouble hearing you.

Page 2605

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. A while ago we discussed an investigation that you were involved

3 in. Yesterday you said in reply to a question by the OTP that you had

4 attended or had been involved in a great many investigations; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was it ever the case in Markale 1 or Markale 2 or any other

7 serious incident, such as the one that occurred at the Simone Bolivar

8 school - you heard about that on TV at least - or when the TV building was

9 hit, were members of the RS army ever allowed to be involved in these

10 investigations?

11 A. It's not that this was disallowed. These people were never

12 interested in being part of an investigation, in being involved in an

13 on-site investigation. The circumstances were such that it was entirely

14 illusory for anyone to expect them to come over and be part of an

15 investigation. The town had been under continuous shelling for three

16 years, and after all, we had UN people who were trained for that sort of

17 thing at the time.

18 As far as I know, no request was ever made by anyone from the

19 Serbian side to cross the line and be involved in an investigation. The

20 same question was asked during my testimony concerning Markale 1, but as

21 far as I know, no requests by Serbs were ever made to be part of an

22 investigation. Had a request ever been made, we would have allowed them

23 access.

24 Q. You would have allowed access to the Serbian side in any of these

25 incidents, wouldn't you?

Page 2606

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So, then, they would be able to take appropriate steps with regard

3 to people on their side who had committed these acts; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know anything about the fact that for security reasons

6 people were IDed on the street, regardless of their ethnicity?

7 A. Yes. But people were only IDed during the curfew that was in

8 force between 6.00 in the evening and 10.00 in the morning. That's when

9 people were IDed, all ethnicities alike.

10 Q. In spring-time, morning is day-time; it's no longer night-time.

11 A. I said between 2200 hours in the morning and perhaps 5.00 or

12 6.00 -- 2200 hours in the evening and perhaps 5.00 or 6.00 the next

13 morning.

14 Q. Do you know if there were any Serbs who were IDed and they would

15 walk on for 50 or 100 metres and would be shot by a sniper?

16 A. I'm not familiar with any such incidents.

17 Q. You talked about Markale 2 yesterday.

18 A. Indeed.

19 Q. The first thing I'd like to do is show you your own statement, the

20 21st of September, 2001.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The number is D00-0861. Just to

22 save time, I need one paragraph from this statement.

23 Q. Is that your statement, sir?

24 A. Yes. It's signed.

25 Q. All right. Let's move on to page 2. In paragraph 2 or paragraph

Page 2607

1 3, rather, you say this: "On-site investigations carried out during the

2 war with regard to mortar incidents normally involved the collection of

3 shrapnel and other remains of ammunition, photographing of a crime scene,

4 making a sketch of a crime scene, and a lot of other technical work."

5 You said that yesterday. That's correct, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In the next paragraph, you say: "Because it was difficult to

8 arrange for proper training during the war, I had not undergone any

9 official training in investigating cases of mortar shelling and artillery

10 shelling."

11 Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How, then, were you able at all to establish what the evidence was

14 in these incidents? How could you possibly be a member of these teams

15 that were supposed to establish some sort of truth if you had undergone no

16 sort of training at all?

17 A. When one arrives at a crime scene, you find some damage, you find

18 bits of a projectile, a stabiliser fin or something like that, sometimes

19 dum-dum bullets. Whatever ended up there, we would normally find. It was

20 a step-by-step process. We would train ourselves. We would see what this

21 was about. It's no great wisdom to find a piece of iron or any

22 regular-shaped sharp object at a crime scene. So that's what we did.

23 We didn't just investigate major scenes of shelling. We also

24 investigated scenes where there was only material, physical damage, but no

25 loss of human life, where we found a great many pieces like these. So

Page 2608

1 that was one of the things. You had Markale 1, 2, Dobrinja 4, and this

2 was done by people who determined the angle of descent and drew up the

3 appropriate reports.

4 Q. We can, therefore, conclude that you knew nothing about the

5 particular features of weapons of any kind.

6 A. No, that's not something that we had been trained for.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: One of the questions you put to the witness was

8 quoting from the report. "Because it was difficult to arrange for proper

9 training during the war, I had not undergone any official training in

10 investigating cases of mortar shelling and artillery shelling." There's

11 just a slight difference in what is in the English. It speaks of formal

12 tuition in the investigation of shelling or mortar incidents instead of

13 training.

14 May I just ask the interpreter to identify that passage and let me

15 know whether the correct translation is "tuition" or "training."

16 THE INTERPRETER: The word in the B/C/S original is actually

17 "teaching," so the interpreter believes it could cut both ways.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, yes.

19 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You then go on to explain how you got your training in this way,

22 and then you say:

23 "I, however, had the opportunity to attend many such crime scenes

24 where I observed UN officers conducting investigations. I observed the

25 methods that they used and I learned how such investigations were

Page 2609

1 conducted."

2 Is that how you eventually learned to do your job, sir?

3 A. Yes, from the UN. It was from the UN that my colleagues and I

4 learned to determine the origin of projectiles, which direction they came

5 from. We learned to distinguish different kinds of marks left by a

6 projectile. So we learned to distinguish between mortar projectiles,

7 missiles, those fired from a gun, artillery projectiles, that sort of

8 thing.

9 Q. Following that type of training, you were involved in the Markale

10 1 investigation on the 5th of February, 1994. That's what you say in the

11 next paragraph. Is that right, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In that same paragraph, I see that you said at the time, on the

14 5th of February, 1994, "When I arrived at the scene all of those injured

15 had already been taken away."

16 My question is: That was the case on the 5th of February, 1994,

17 and also on the 28th of August, 1995. Wasn't that the case, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can DD00-0861 be admitted as a

20 Defence exhibit, please.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D77, Your Honours.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The other document is DD00-0851.

24 This is your statement dated the 25th of April, 2006.

25 Q. I'm not showing the first page to keep your name from being

Page 2610

1 broadcast and to avoid going into private session, unless it is absolutely

2 necessary for you, just in case you don't remember making a statement on

3 the 25th of April, 2006.

4 A. I think I did make one.

5 Q. In that case, I'm moving straight to page 2. It's a very brief

6 statement.

7 You see it, sir, don't you?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 2, please.

9 Q. "I don't think there were any other shells landing on the Markale

10 market on the morning of the 28th of August, 1995, or the day before."

11 That's what it says, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes, it does.

13 Q. Does that mean that a single shell landed?

14 A. Yes. There was a single shell that landed on the Markale area.

15 Q. What about any other areas? Were there any other shells landing?

16 A. Not that I knew of.

17 Q. That morning you neither heard nor saw any other shell landing

18 except for the one shell at Markale, did you?

19 A. There were shells falling every day. It's possible that there

20 were shells landing. I just didn't take notice. It became something that

21 was quite usual. So when the team was called up in relation to Markale 1,

22 that was when I found out.

23 Q. So what about this one shell? What did you hear?

24 A. We were indoors in our offices. We heard explosions. We couldn't

25 immediately know where the explosions were occurring, which part of town.

Page 2611

1 But this was one that was nearby, so of course we heard the sound of an

2 explosion. When shells were falling, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, if they came in a

3 quick succession, we would be reluctant to leave our rooms, obviously.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have photograph

5 number 1 on our screens, 65 ter number 00129.

6 Q. You see the photograph, sir, don't you? When you arrived at the

7 scene, this is one of the photographs that you took, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. That's looking from Tito Street in the direction of

9 Bascarsija.

10 Q. How far from this car was the first shell that landed, if you

11 could show us the point of impact, please.

12 A. [Indicates].

13 Q. Here we can see an overturned motorbike. Can you explain to me

14 how it's possible that on this car to the right there is not a single

15 trace of it being hit by anything?

16 A. That's the vehicle of our forensic unit that came there with the

17 kit and the equipment. It's an official car.

18 Q. I understand.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at the

20 photograph behind you. I don't know exactly what number this photograph

21 is.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the question now?

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like him to show the

24 photograph on the screen.

25 Q. But in any case, yesterday you showed that there was shrapnel in

Page 2612

1 the wall down there to the right.

2 A. Yes, you can see it here.

3 Q. Can you look now, to the left there is not a single shrapnel, to

4 the far left, not a single shrapnel.

5 A. It was impossible for them to be there. This is the exit, and

6 this whole area is where the bodies were. So they were here and the

7 detonation caused injuries and, for the most part, they prevented this

8 area being hit by shrapnel. If you look at this photograph on the

9 monitor, you will see that across -- to the left and upwards, there's

10 major damage, as I explained yesterday. The upper part of the building

11 you see, and I will show to you the dynamics of this damage here and this

12 thing up there with respect to this part where there is very few damaged

13 areas.

14 So the building opposite the market was damaged in its upper

15 part. You see the movement. These are all damage caused by the shrapnel,

16 and that's what I explained yesterday. And if the projectile fell here,

17 the shrapnel dispersed in this direction and caused injuries to the

18 people, and the other shrapnel travel in this direction causing damage to

19 the building, as you can see on this photograph.

20 Q. I would like to ask you something different. If you look to the

21 right, there's barely a few pieces of shrapnel. I didn't see a single one

22 on the other side; maybe you did.

23 A. The concentration is identical to the other one.

24 Q. Are you aware of the fact that this type of shell can produce

25 between 3 and 4.000 pieces of shrapnel?

Page 2613

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So how is it possible that on this wall, especially on the left

3 where you see blood-stains, of the 4.000 pieces of shrapnel there were

4 just a few? How do you account for that?

5 A. The reason was because 35 people were killed instantly and another

6 30 succumbed to the injuries later and another 40 people suffered

7 injuries.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, I don't understand. How does that

9 explain why there isn't any shrapnel on the left side, the fact that 35

10 people were killed and another 30 died later?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried to explain. This was the

12 entrance point where a huge crowd of pedestrians was. It is only logical

13 that these people in this area here -- this is where the bodies were.

14 That's why you don't see any blood, but there were lots of extremities in

15 this area, and it is only reasonable that there is little damage on the

16 wall. However, on the right-hand side, as you can see here and here,

17 there is something, there is a little bit more, which means that the

18 majority of shrapnel was embedded in the bodies of the people.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, okay. Can you just point to a piece of

20 shrapnel on that drawing which is behind you? Because I can't see from

21 here.

22 THE WITNESS: [Indicates].

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a piece. That's actually in the wall.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in the wall. The impact and a

25 piece of mortar was chipped from the wall which can be better seen in the

Page 2614

1 photograph. You can see that these are fresh traces of mortar being

2 chipped out by a piece of metal or whatever.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And so the explanation for less shrapnel being on

4 the left side is that the shrapnel was embedded in the bodies of the

5 victims?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a huge number.


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, and we collected a lot --

9 lots of pieces of shrapnel were collected.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, we'll have medical evidence on

11 this?

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, we'll get -- we'll get that. We have got the

13 autopsy reports from the victims, and if we weren't planning to put them

14 in, we'll put them in.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, the previous witness and everybody else and you also said

18 that between 3 and 4.000 pieces of shrapnel were produced, but there were

19 not 3 or 4.000 people. There were as many people as was said before.

20 Where did, for instance, 2.500 shrapnel go?

21 A. Believe me, I don't know. It doesn't mean that each piece hit

22 somebody. It doesn't mean that the bodies had absorbed all the 3.000

23 shrapnel. The fact is that we found lots of pieces on the scene, and this

24 has been shown in the photograph. However, where the rest had gone,

25 believe me, I don't know.

Page 2615

1 Q. In response to Judge Robinson's question, you explained why these

2 two bicycles were upright and that people were standing in front of them;

3 is that right?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you also said that the stalls were there with vendors selling

8 cigarettes right on that side.

9 A. No, there were no stalls there. People were just standing there

10 and selling various commodities, butter, sugar, et cetera.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like, if possible, you to

12 show photographs 2, 3, 4, and 5 so that you can see pieces of extremities,

13 which indicates that people were standing there when the detonation held;

14 that the tissue was torn and that accounts for the less damage. However,

15 there was bigger damage to people's extremities. Therefore, I would like

16 for to you show me photographs 2, 3, 5, and 4. If the Prosecutor decides

17 to do so, we can do it later.

18 Q. Explain to me: If there were so many people there selling

19 cigarettes and other commodities, where are these items there? Does this

20 mean that the cigarettes and other commodities sold by those people who

21 would die there were removed from the scene?

22 A. No. You can see here a certain quantity of cigarettes.

23 Q. Very well. But where are these body parts in this photograph?

24 Can you show me at least one?

25 A. I think that this is a leg, a foot; this is another foot. I also

Page 2616

1 believe that there's another part but it's not very clear. As far as I

2 can remember, those were -- numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, and maybe 6 were the

3 markings of body parts and tissue.

4 Q. Actually, my question was why were the people who were definitely

5 dead removed from the scene before your arrival?

6 A. Of course, those who were dead were taken to the morgue. One

7 couldn't leave them lying in the street for two or three hours. And then

8 the wounded were taken care of. It was only natural. I believe that it

9 was only a normal thing to do.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Excuse the interruption, but before counsel moves

13 on, can I ask that the photograph on the monitor be saved. I wish to

14 tender that as a Prosecution exhibit either now or during re-direct

15 examination if Mr. Tapuskovic is not going to. And I just want to make

16 sure that it's preserved before the markings go away.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, the court deputy will see to that.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to expedite my

19 cross-examination in order to complete it at the end of this session.

20 Can we please look now at photograph number 8.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please remember to save this before we move to

22 the other.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This can also be tendered as a

24 Defence exhibit; I have no objection to that.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: It doesn't matter to me. Just so long as it's in

Page 2617

1 evidence one way or the other. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, that's very cooperative. We will

3 admit it as an exhibit.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As D78, Your Honours.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: And my thanks to Mr. Tapuskovic for making the

6 offer.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, based on the photograph and what you have shown us, would

9 it be fair to say that the characteristics of this shell has been

10 spreading in the form of a circular funnel?

11 A. You can see a better concentration here.

12 Q. No, I'm asking you a completely different thing. I put it to you

13 that the spreading caused by this shell and the shrapnel is in the funnel

14 shape, and this is precisely what is shown in this photograph, that they

15 flew upwards into the air. Maybe I'm not right.

16 A. No, you're not right.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Docherty. I would

18 have forgotten to tender this photograph into evidence.

19 Can we please now move to photograph number 8. Yes, here it is.

20 Q. Are you aware of the most basic principle and the duty not to

21 tamper with anything at the location where there was an explosion or any

22 such thing happening?

23 A. This was in the course of the investigation. We photographed the

24 scene as we found it. However, since there was a lot of material there,

25 it was impossible to definitely determine the direction of the shell. And

Page 2618

1 as standard procedure, we went on to remove the rubble in order to get an

2 accurate and clear picture of the direction from which the projectile

3 came.

4 Q. That's exactly what I'm asking you. Why did you do anything at

5 all? Why did you clear the scene before the arrival of the investigating

6 judge?

7 A. Well, no, no, one cannot start an on-site investigation without

8 the presence of the prosecutor and the judge. They give us the green

9 light to do that, to proceed with the investigation. No one else has the

10 right, without the signal from the judge, to go ahead with any procedure.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Witness, what the counsel was asking you was

12 why did you clear the scene before the investigating judge arrived? The

13 question wasn't whether you started the investigation without the approval

14 of the investigating judge, but why did you clear the scene before the

15 judge arrived? What's the answer to that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's not true, that we

17 cleared the scene without the presence of the judge. The judge was there

18 while we were doing it.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I cannot find this particular statement of yours that you made

21 yesterday, but I do understand your reply. The witness who testified

22 before you, on page 2415, lines 12 to 15, said the first thing would be to

23 locate the stabiliser fin of the shell in order to establish the type of

24 shell. In most cases, we found markings of the manufacturer from Serbia,

25 such as KV, which stands for "Kraljevo" in Serbian.

Page 2619

1 My first question is: Did the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina have

2 these type of shells?

3 A. I have no knowledge about the weapons of the BH army. I was a

4 police officer, I was doing the police business, and I wasn't a member of

5 the BH army.

6 Q. Let me ask you another thing with regard to the stabiliser. It

7 was retrieved at the distance that you mentioned and indicated.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And if we can look at photo 28 --

9 no, 26 would be better.

10 Q. Yesterday you said that the stabiliser, which is a good indicator

11 of the incoming direction, was flattened.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that you presumed that there were some individuals who

14 probably moved it, wanting to take it with them as a souvenir.

15 A. It could easily have happened because there was a commotion and

16 there was a huge need to take care of so many wounded and dead people.

17 However, it is a portable trace, and given that it was between 25 and 30

18 metres away from the scene, that's where we found it but we never moved

19 it.

20 Q. You know that in Markale 1 this fin was in the crater itself.

21 A. Yes. It was embedded in the asphalt, or, rather, penetrated the

22 thin layer of asphalt and got embedded into the earth underneath and

23 that's where I found it.

24 Q. Well, it's the same surface; it's not far away.

25 A. No. Here you have two or three layers. This is a very busy

Page 2620

1 street, with heavy traffic; heavy-duty trucks pass through it. So it was

2 difficult for it to penetrate the asphalt surface.

3 Q. Before the event itself, the explosion, there were no trams

4 running down this street, but cars, buses and pedestrians were normally

5 using the street; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is. I believe that there was some tram service on and

7 off, depending on the situation.

8 Q. So that means that people were not standing on the driving lane;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How is it then possible that there was not a single vehicle, a

12 car, a bus, because as you say it was a busy street, that was not hit?

13 Can you explain that?

14 A. A motorcyclist was hit. He was passing down the street at that

15 moment. It wasn't such a busy street that you would have a queue of

16 several vehicles. I would say that a couple of vehicles would pass at a

17 time.

18 Q. All the people were on the pavement, which is barely 1 to 1.5

19 metres wide.

20 A. Over 2.5 metres wide.

21 Q. Would it be fair to say that the damage, that the flatness of this

22 tail fin, given the quality of the material that it's made of, cannot be

23 deformed by a car? In order to make it look like this, you would need a

24 tractor or something else.

25 A. I don't think that these fins are so robust. Their thickness is

Page 2621

1 probably between .6 up to a maximum of 1 millimetre, so it is possible for

2 it to be flattened by a bigger vehicle.

3 Q. In order not to dwell on this any longer, for the moment, I'd like

4 to put it to you that, in my opinion, this shell was planted at this

5 specific location and in some possible way then exploded or made to

6 explode.

7 A. No, that is absolutely impossible.

8 Q. And that it was possible that only a few people who happened to be

9 there fell victims to this shell, whereas all the others were brought to

10 the location in the aftermath of the explosion.

11 A. No, that's not true.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where would they have been brought from,

14 Mr. Tapuskovic? I'm trying to understand your case.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Those were the people killed in

16 fighting and subsequently brought to the place where dead people are

17 normally kept before being buried. But most certainly it was impossible

18 for so many casualties. Here now we heard the figure of 60 dead, 30

19 instantaneously and 30 later, and the indictment speaks about 30, or,

20 rather, 43 dead as a result of this incident.

21 In any case, in view of what I said, I put forward this claim with

22 the conviction that that is what actually happened, and I would not tackle

23 any other incidents other than those that we tackled so far and in which I

24 also believe that the same practice was put in place.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you speak of the place where dead people are

Page 2622

1 normally kept before being buried, do you mean a morgue?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: So your case is that they were brought from a

4 morgue and placed at the scene of this incident.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. And they were quickly

6 removed from the scene in order to preclude the possibility of

7 establishing the time of death and for other reasons that expert witnesses

8 are going to talk about. I regret that the Prosecutor failed to show us

9 the bodies on the scene while they were still there for you to see how it

10 looked like and to judge whether it is possible for a single shell to

11 cause such devastation, because it normally cannot kill more than ten

12 people, unless all of these people were in one barrel.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Just very briefly, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 To begin with, what I propose to do is simply tell the Chamber

16 which photographs show severed body parts. I do not plan on displaying

17 those publicly, if that would be acceptable, rather than have the witness

18 look at them one after another. And if the Chamber feels the need to look

19 at these, I will have given the e-court numbers. Is that acceptable,

20 rather than question and answer with the witness? I would simply like to

21 avoid a public display of some truly gruesome photographs.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't want to see gruesome photographs,

23 but if there is an evidential point, then you must assess whether you have

24 to show them.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: I understand. I would draw the Chamber's attention

Page 2623

1 to the following e-court page numbers, from the exhibit that is the

2 portfolio of photographs.

3 E-court page 10 shows a severed human foot with the evidence

4 placard from the police "2" placed beside it, and that will allow you to

5 locate that on the chart that is already in evidence in which those

6 placards -- numbers appear in small circles. E-court page 11 shows a

7 severed human foot; the evidence placard is number 3. E-court page 12,

8 the evidence placard there is number 5. E-court page 14, the evidence

9 placard there is number 4. E-court page 15, the police evidence placard

10 there is number 5.

11 And now I do have just a couple of questions for the witness.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.


14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, I regret to say that this informal

16 procedure doesn't meet the evidential requirements. If you are going to

17 ask us to look at the photographs and draw from the photographs an

18 inference that would be favourable to your case, then they must be in

19 evidence.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, with respect, they are in evidence.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: They are in evidence?

22 MR. DOCHERTY: They are in evidence. I'm sorry if I was not

23 clear. There was a portfolio of 44 photographs. They were all -- it was

24 65 ter number 00129. They were all moved. But I published to the Chamber

25 a selection of those photographs, and it is from those photographs that,

Page 2624

1 for example, the montage behind the witness appears, that the photograph

2 of the building appears with the bicycles against it, and so forth. I did

3 not show all 44 photographs, but I did put all 44 in. And the witness has

4 testified that these all photographs he took at Markale on that day, and

5 what I'm suggesting -- I will show them. I do not want to, but I will do

6 it if the Chamber tells me to --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. If they are in evidence, that is perfectly

8 proper.

9 But, Mr. Tapuskovic, you must note that these photographs are in

10 evidence.

11 What are the questions that you have.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Just briefly

13 Re-examination by Mr. Docherty:

14 Q. Officer, you recall that when you were being cross-examined,

15 Mr. Tapuskovic asked you a question about where all the cigarettes and

16 other things that the vendors had been selling disappeared to. Do you

17 recall that question and your answer to him?

18 A. All the items that were found, such as personal documents, were

19 taken by the police and were later returned to those who had been injured

20 or the families of those who had been killed.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could, from the portfolio of photographs, see

22 first e-court page 13, I will have a question about that; and then e-court

23 page 33.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure how

Page 2625

1 long this re-examination is going to take - I'm not entitled to speak

2 after that, regardless of re-examination - if I could please be excused

3 from the rest of today's hearing, since my learned friend will be taking

4 over the next witness.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but let me just say something before you go.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you go, Mr. Tapuskovic, I just wanted to

8 let the parties know of the procedure that I'll follow when the CLSS gives

9 us the translation of that disputed passage. When we have the

10 translation, I will allow the parties to make very brief submissions on

11 it.

12 So you may go, Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 And remember now, we're well past the time for the break.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I have this photograph and then one

15 more, and then I will tender one other item of evidence.

16 Q. Officer, do you see the photograph on the monitor in front of you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Besides blood, what's in the gutter there?

19 A. Packs of cigarettes scattered all over the tarmac, obviously.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could now see e-court page 33.

21 Q. Officer, do you see that photograph on the screen in front of you?

22 A. Yes. This is a wallet with an ID card and with lighters. This

23 probably belonged to a person who was selling lighters.

24 Q. And this was a photograph taken by you --

25 A. Yes.

Page 2626

1 Q. -- at Markale market on August 28th, 1995.

2 A. That's right. This and at least a dozen others like this.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, that's all the questions I have for

4 the witness. Before I sit down, I would like to tender - I neglected to

5 do this in my examination-in-chief - the officer's report with the list of

6 the dead. It is 65 ter number 145B. I neglected to tender it at the

7 close of my examination-in-chief, so I ask to do that at this time.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P266, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, the photograph that was there before, that's

11 already in evidence?

12 MR. DOCHERTY: These are all in evidence, Your Honour. As I say,

13 there were 44 and I think I had the witness actually show and talk about,

14 I don't know, 12 or 13 of them. But all 44 went into evidence after he

15 said that he had looked at all 44 before court and that they were all

16 photographs he had taken at Markale on August 28th, 1995.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I asked because that one shows the shrapnel marks

18 which I'm not able to see looking at the drawing which you have at the

19 back of the court.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: And then lastly, for the Chamber's benefit, I was

21 asked about medical evidence of victims absorbing shrapnel, and I have

22 been informed that these were put into evidence already through the two

23 doctors who testified, who put in large volumes of medical reports, and we

24 can highlight for the Chamber which of those relate to Markale market.

25 But they are already in evidence.

Page 2627

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you.

2 Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for giving it,

3 and you may now leave.

4 We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, Mr. Whiting, I see is here.

10 Let the witness make the declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

15 And you may again, Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examination by Mr. Whiting:

18 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state your name for the

19 record.

20 A. My name is John Jordan.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please observe the pause

22 between questions an answers for the interpreters.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear that? You are asked to observe a

24 pause between question and answer in the interests of interpretation.


Page 2628

1 Q. I think it will also assist the interpreters, as well as the court

2 reporter, if we do not -- if we take care not to speak too quickly. And

3 also I'm going to ask you to please try to keep your answers as brief as

4 possible, though try to answer the question completely. Do you

5 understand?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 MR. WHITING: With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to show

8 the witness his statement, and I have copies also for the Trial Chamber in

9 case you don't have copies with you. Defence counsel, of course, has the

10 statement in English and in B/C/S.

11 Q. Mr. Jordan, is this your statement?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this statement before coming

14 to court today?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Could you look, please, at paragraph 45 of your statement. In

17 that paragraph you describe an incident where you saw two snipers in a

18 building in Grbavica. Having reviewed this paragraph, do you want to make

19 a correction to that sentence?

20 A. Yes. There were three, now that I remember right; two on one

21 floor and one on another.

22 Q. Aside -- excuse me. Aside from that correction, is the statement

23 true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

24 A. Yes, sir, it is.

25 Q. If you were to testify here and asked about these matters, is this

Page 2629

1 what you would testify to here in court?

2 A. Yes, sir, it is.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, this is 65 ter number 2835. I don't

4 believe there is a need to call it up on the e-court, but I'd ask that it

5 be admitted into evidence.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As P267, Your Honours.

8 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Jordan, could you briefly tell us your military background.

10 What military background do you have? That is, before 1992.

11 A. I was on active duty in the United States Marine Corps from 1973

12 to 1978; I was an enlisted man. I left with the rank of sergeant. My

13 last job was Chief Scout Sniper of the 1st Battalion, 4th Marines.

14 Q. Now, sir -- I'm sorry, did you have more --

15 A. I did some marksmanship instruction training in a number of

16 countries friendly to the US but never held a rank or title in anyone

17 else's military.

18 Q. And that was after you left the marines in 1978?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Mr. Jordan, when did you first go to Sarajevo?

21 A. November 1992.

22 Q. And when did you leave Sarajevo for the last time?

23 A. I believe my last visit was in September or October of 1995, in

24 that area. I don't remember exactly.

25 Q. Between those two dates, what's the longest period of time that

Page 2630

1 you were away from Sarajevo?

2 A. The longest gap was in the spring of 1995. It was about four or

3 five weeks, and it was in the early spring. I believe I was back in

4 Sarajevo by the beginning of May.

5 Q. Other than that period of time, were you essentially in Sarajevo

6 continuously except for brief trips outside of Sarajevo?

7 A. I was either in Sarajevo, on my way out to pick up equipment, or

8 on my way back in with equipment.

9 MR. WHITING: I'd like to show now a brief news clip of a story

10 that is about you, and I hope you're not embarrassed about it, but I think

11 it summarizes what you were doing. We're going to show it on the Sanction

12 so we need to switch over to the Sanction, and I believe by clicking on

13 the e-court button that's how you can watch it.

14 The clip is in English. There is a simultaneous text in B/C/S

15 which will be underneath, and the French booth is already prepared to

16 translate this in French. So if we can show that now.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. Mr. Jordan, is that you in the video clip?

20 A. Yes, about a thousand years ago.

21 Q. That was my next question. What is the date, if you recall, when

22 that was made and broadcast?

23 A. I believe that was March or April of 1993. It would have

24 coincided with the congressional fire an emergency services dinner, which

25 was where it occurred.

Page 2631

1 Q. In the video clip you make a reference to what people in the hills

2 around the city were doing. Who were you referring to when you

3 say "people in the hills"?

4 A. That would be the BSA forces surrounding the city.

5 Q. And when you say "BSA," what is that a reference to, just so we're

6 clear?

7 A. Forces other than the Bosnian government, which was -- who held

8 the town. We just called them the Bosnian Serb army.

9 Q. I just needed what the initials stood for. Thank you.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. Why, in this clip, did you refer to them as the "people in the

12 hills" and not as the Bosnian Serb army?

13 A. By that time, March of 1993, I had been there long enough to see

14 things in not so much a black-and-white way, so I didn't want to label a

15 whole country or a whole ethnic group or a whole anybody with a particular

16 label. The anger in the city seemed to be focussed around its

17 peripheries, so that's the way I did it.

18 Q. Were you working or trying to cooperate with the Serb side at that

19 time?

20 A. I had a number of informal meetings with the BSA liaison, a Major

21 Indic and I believe there was a Captain Branic. They were still at the

22 PTT within the city of Sarajevo at the time. And it took a while for them

23 to warm up to the idea of us assisting fire-fighters on both sides of the

24 line. That didn't actually occur for -- probably until the summer of 1993

25 when I finally got our own vehicle in and I did not have to count on the

Page 2632

1 UN driving me up to Lukavica.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, could this clip that was shown be

3 admitted into evidence, please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P268, Your Honours.


7 Q. Mr. Jordan, when you were -- during your time in Sarajevo, did you

8 only fight fires or did you do other things?

9 A. We fought fires. We did what medical emergency response we could.

10 Because we had vehicles and fuel, we tried to assist the locals in any

11 other way we could. We often were involved in everything from body swaps,

12 prisoner exchanges, assisting other NGOs that had no mobility to transport

13 everything from supplies to water.

14 It's not so much a European tradition, but in the US, firemen

15 typically don't say no to anything. We try to justify our existence and

16 people's tax dollars by doing anything the community needs. The local

17 fire departments did not do medical; we tried to change that.

18 Q. Would you respond to shelling and/or sniping incidents?

19 A. Yes, we would do this both in an after-the-fact situation, in

20 other words, if we heard a shelling, we would respond to the sound. If

21 somebody called us and said somebody was shot, we would also respond. We

22 would also pre-position equipment and personnel in areas where, on any

23 given day, snipers were particularly active. They came out a lot in nice

24 weather. People came out, made it a target-rich environment, and the

25 snipers got busy. So we would pre-position in areas of known locations.

Page 2633

1 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where your fire station was

2 located in 1994 and 1995?

3 A. By then we were located in the centre of municipal Sarajevo, in

4 Cengic Vila. We were on a small off-road just off the main road, 6th

5 Proletariate Brigade Boulevard, in what was a former supermarket which we

6 turned into the UN's first fire station.

7 Q. Was that in an area under Bosnian army, Bosnian government

8 control, or under the control of the Bosnian Serb army?

9 A. That would be under Bosnian government control.

10 Q. Where in Sarajevo did you do your work? What neighbourhoods?

11 What areas?

12 A. We responded to fires and medical emergencies everywhere from the

13 Vogosca automobile plant all the way over to Lukavica, but the vast

14 majority of our responses were in the area, I would say, east of the

15 station and within Bosnian government-controlled areas to the east of us.

16 That seemed to be where the majority of our responses were.

17 Q. Could you -- I'm sorry. Could you look, please, at paragraph 11

18 of your statement.

19 In that paragraph you state that you began receiving applications

20 from volunteers from all over the world. Did you have volunteers in your

21 organisation from countries other than the United States; and, if so, can

22 you tell us which countries?

23 A. Because of media coverage and coverage in different fire and

24 emergency medical trade magazines, we began very early in 1993 to get

25 resumes from fire and emergency medical personnel in different countries.

Page 2634

1 The number of countries, I could not tell you, as far as how many we

2 received, because the pile of resumes was about as tall as I am. The

3 folks that we did deploy to Sarajevo were American, Canadian, British,

4 French, German, Czech, Lebanese, and one Spanish kid. I think that's it.

5 Q. Please look at paragraph 15 of your statement. In that paragraph,

6 and it also occurs in paragraph 32 of your statement, you explain what you

7 would do if you went to the scene of a fire or another incident and there

8 was shooting at you.

9 Could you please just briefly describe for the Trial Chamber what

10 the procedure was that you would follow if you went to a location and you

11 were coming under fire. What would you -- what steps would you take?

12 A. It is important to first describe the genesis of that procedure.

13 Q. Briefly.

14 A. The UN had troops in Sarajevo; it did not have fire service

15 personnel, other than at the airport. The UN was not specifically

16 protecting local fire-fighters on other side of the confrontation line.

17 The fire-fighters on both sides were being wounded and killed. We decided

18 the first thing that had to be addressed was their safety. We convinced

19 the UN to protect the local fire-fighters in a symbiotic way, because once

20 the UN agreed to protect the firemen, the firemen then agreed to respond

21 to fires in UN structures. So basically they were finally doing a little

22 good instead of ignoring each other.

23 So the procedure evolved to where we knew the city better than UN

24 troops. UN troops' typical deployment was 90 days. They operated in

25 convoys, strict routes. They didn't know the alleys, the back streets,

Page 2635

1 the fastest way from point A to point B.

2 So we would go to the fire with the locals, whichever side. Then

3 we would determine if the building that was on fire was being shot at. If

4 it was, our first order of business would be to determine if there was a

5 reason the building was being shot at. In other words, if there was a man

6 on the roof firing uphill or downhill with a gun, in that environment he

7 got shot back at and the people who lived there just had to endure it. If

8 we arrived and there was a building on fire, gun-fire going into it and no

9 military activity in the building, coming from the building, then we would

10 contact UN headquarters. We would give the UN military observers a grid

11 coordinate of where the gun-fire was originating from and a description of

12 the weapon.

13 At that point, the UN would look for the UN military observer who

14 was responsible for that particular area. He would then contact the local

15 force commander and tell him that, Look, we have UN firemen in the

16 building; you're shooting at a building that has no military significance;

17 please stop --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Please speak slower for interpretation, sir.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I believe that

20 this is a bit too fast and the interpretation into French and in B/C/S is

21 difficult because the witness is speaking too fast. So it's difficult for

22 us to follow the translation, so could the witness please speak slower.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we all heard the request of the interpreter

24 and Ms. Isailovic.

25 Speak slower.

Page 2636

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you should be bringing this answer to a close

3 now. Generally, I prefer short answers.

4 MR. WHITING: I take responsibility for this one, Your Honour,

5 because the question I asked for, really, a long answer. So I'll break it

6 down.

7 Q. Once you called the UN and told them the grid reference where the

8 gun-fire was coming from and the description of the weapon, what would

9 they do, to your knowledge?

10 A. They would attempt to contact a local commander and ask him to

11 cease fire based on our report that the fire was in a civilian structure

12 with no military significance.

13 Q. And what then would happen? What would be the result, if any, of

14 that call?

15 A. In the vast majority of cases, the gun-fire ceased.

16 Q. And to your recollection, when this procedure was followed, were

17 the grid references from which the fire was coming on the Bosnian Serb

18 army territory, Bosnian government territory, or both?

19 A. Bosnian Serb army territory.

20 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber how many times you went to a

21 location and you determined that it was a military target?

22 A. Well under 5 per cent. Rarely.

23 MR. WHITING: Could we look at paragraph --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. What was the criterion that you used?

25 THE WITNESS: Uniformed armed military personnel within the fire

Page 2637

1 ground, storage supplies, like a lager or bivouac area, or gun-fire coming

2 from within the fire ground, the building on fire.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Could we turn to paragraph 19, please.

6 Q. In this paragraph you describe an incident when you were hit in

7 the chest with a bullet in November of 1994. I just have a few brief

8 questions about this incident.

9 Did it happen during the day or at night?

10 A. Daylight.

11 Q. How do you know that -- you say that it came from a Serb

12 position. How do you know that? How did you determine that?

13 A. Because I knew where the Serb positions were in relation to where

14 I was standing. I know where the bullet hit me and where I went after

15 that. The bullet had to come from positions occupied by the BSA.

16 Q. At the moment that you were hit by the bullet, were you out in the

17 open or were you somehow not visible?

18 A. I had momentarily exposed myself, moving from point A to point B

19 in the course of fighting a fire.

20 Q. And can you describe --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were there any other troops in the area, apart

22 from the Serb troops? Any Bosnian government troops?

23 THE WITNESS: There were some within 50 metres of where I was at,

24 because there was a trench line nearby. But I was wearing fireman's

25 equipment and I was carrying a rolled hose. I was fighting a fire in a

Page 2638

1 building occupied by civilians on one side and, unfortunately, military on

2 its back side. That was the nature of the conflict.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why are you able to rule out the possibility that

4 the shot came from those forces?

5 THE WITNESS: They were all hiding, and the shot came from well

6 above me. It hit me at a down angle and drove me to the ground. And I

7 believe I might have heard the muzzle blast; it was that close. It was a

8 single, well-aimed round from a position above me.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Jordan, can you describe briefly what you were wearing, what

12 your fireman outfit looked like.

13 A. I was wearing a typical fireman's ensemble, but it was coloured

14 blue, much like UN colours, with glossy white reflective patches, a blue

15 shiny white fireman's helmet with "UN" on it, and not camouflaged in any

16 way. My flakjacket was also blue.

17 Q. Could we look, please, at --

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] This blue uniform, Mr. Witness, was

19 that the UN colour or was it the U.S.? Wasn't it going to be a little bit

20 confusing and wasn't there a possibility that you could confuse it with

21 the military or the police uniform?

22 THE WITNESS: No. My uniform could not be confused with military

23 or police by any rational individual.


25 Q. Why do you say that, Mr. Jordan? Can you just be more specific?

Page 2639

1 A. It was not camouflaged in any way, shape or form. Again, it was

2 like the UN blue, very bright, glossy white reflective patches on it so

3 that one sees one's partners in the smoke. My blue fireman's helmet was

4 also a shiny gloss blue helmet, nothing camouflaged about it. The BSA

5 firemen wore green uniforms; the Bosnian government firemen wore black.

6 There was no way to mistake me for anything other than what I was.

7 Q. Could you turn, please, to paragraph 22 of your statement. In the

8 middle of that paragraph, you say: "The majority of fire against us came

9 from the Bosnian Serbs."

10 Then in the next paragraph you describe an incident that occurred

11 in July of 1995 where you suspected that mortars that landed around you

12 were fired from the Bosnian Muslim side.

13 My question is this: Aside from that incident that you describe

14 in paragraph 23, were there any other occasions where you believe or

15 suspect that fire came on you from the Bosnian Muslim side?

16 A. Not while on their territory, no.

17 Q. Did it occur while you were not on their territory; and, if so,

18 where?

19 A. On one occasion we were on a hill above the south-eastern part of

20 Sarajevo. We were fighting a fire in a home on BSA territory, and a

21 couple of random rifle rounds were fired at us and it just stopped. We

22 never got a grid. We never ceased fire operations. A couple of random

23 rounds and then it stopped.

24 Q. Did it happen on any other occasion?

25 A. Not that I remember.

Page 2640

1 Q. Did you ever hear -- did you ever witness or hear of Bosnian

2 government forces either shelling their own people or firing sniper fire

3 on their own people?

4 A. Those rumours circulated constantly among UN personnel, media

5 personnel, and particularly among folks on the BSA side.

6 Q. And did you yourself, during your time there, lend any credence to

7 those rumours? Did you believe them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why not?

10 A. I didn't think the Bosnian government forces had the ability to

11 pull that off without everyone knowing it, on the one hand. On the other

12 hand, if they were doing it to elicit sympathy or some reason, it was

13 obviously a failed policy because the sympathy they were looking for never

14 showed up. So those are the two reasons, I think, there was nothing to

15 that.

16 Q. When you say in paragraph 22 that "the majority of fire against us

17 came from the Bosnian Serbs, usually high ground or from a building known

18 to be under their control," can you tell the Trial Chamber how it is that

19 you determined that? How would you know that fire against you was coming

20 from the Bosnian Serb side? What things would you take into account to

21 make that determination?

22 A. We had to be alive to help people, so it was our job to constantly

23 monitor what buildings were under whose control and presented what manner

24 of threat to our operations on a daily basis. I don't like to use the

25 expression "common knowledge," but one gets to know the neighbourhood they

Page 2641

1 live in and the demographics of any given neighbourhood. We had to know

2 the violence potential in any given neighbourhood. That was our job.

3 Q. Now, you have explained to the Trial Chamber how it is that you

4 knew who controlled what areas, but when fire was coming on you, either

5 sniper fire or shelling, how would you determine that that firing was

6 coming from the Bosnian Serb areas, when you made that determination?

7 What sort of factors would assist you in making that determination that

8 that's where the fire was coming from?

9 A. We employed the same tactics and techniques of military forward

10 observers with the difference being we tried to call fire off as opposed

11 to calling fire down on a target. Basically, we used the same skills one

12 teaches military forward observers to identify targets. We used them to

13 identify threats and pass that information on to the UN. Same tools, same

14 skill-set, different intent.

15 Q. But I'm going to ask you to be a little bit more specific. Just

16 imagine -- just try to cast your mind back to occasions when you were

17 under fire, either gun-fire or shelling. What specific things would you

18 look for to tell you where the fire was coming from? How would you make

19 that determination? Maybe it seems like a basic question to you --

20 A. Pardon me.

21 Q. -- but it would assist us. How can you tell where shooting or

22 shells are coming from?

23 A. When you see three men on an anti-aircraft gun 2.000 metres away

24 and they are pointing the gun at a building and shooting, and you know

25 where they are on the map and you can see them loading the gun and firing

Page 2642

1 the gun, you can see them. That was it half the time. At night it would

2 be based on muzzle flashes. But most of the time it was direct

3 observation. If we did not know, we did not say.

4 Q. The incident that you describe in paragraph 23, can you tell us

5 where that occurred?

6 A. We had responded to a fire in a single family dwelling on the

7 Bosnian government side of the line, right near the Jewish cemetery, which

8 was an area of what we called "high incident" because of proximity of the

9 opposing forces.

10 Q. How close to the front line was that location, if you know?

11 A. I would say we were within 100 metres or so of the area between

12 the forces, that area expanding and contracting as the opposing forces'

13 lines approached each other.

14 Q. Please look at paragraph 29. You describe seeing mortar tubes

15 well dug in on the Serb side. Are you able to tell us specifically where

16 that was on the Serb side?

17 A. The hill road from -- on the way to Lukavica, you could go up --

18 you would be on the high ground above the south side of Sarajevo. That

19 road was dotted with positions, bunkers, where men lived. It was just

20 back from the front line. But there were support weapons in those

21 positions in a number of places with vistas of Sarajevo below it.

22 Q. And can you describe what a mortar dug in looks like. What would

23 you observe in terms of the mortars dug in?

24 A. Well, one can set up a portable mortar anywhere. But when one

25 wants to be really accurate, you put it in a position and you put out

Page 2643

1 things that look like a surveyor's kit, what we call triangulation

2 equipment - aiming stakes, levels, little things that make what you're

3 trying to do more accurate. We would see some of them.

4 Q. And just to be clear, you saw that on the Serb side in the

5 location that you identified.

6 A. Yes, a number of times.

7 Q. In paragraph 35 you say: "I saw the Bosnian Muslims use a

8 portable mortar from the hospital in late 1994."

9 First of all, do you know which hospital that was?

10 A. I always mixed the hospitals up. It was the one that was in the

11 compound -- not the one that the media always focussed on. Pardon me, I

12 always mixed the two hospitals up. It was the one that had like a complex

13 of buildings.

14 Q. Well, there is the State Hospital building, which is kind of a

15 white building that stands in the middle of the city, and then there's the

16 Kosevo Hospital, which is something of a complex. Are you able to --

17 A. That would be it, then.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, I believe that Mr. Whiting

20 is testifying. Maybe the witness can just answer the questions.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Whiting, that was a little leading.

22 MR. WHITING: I was trying to give the choice of the two hospitals

23 in the city, which I don't think there is any dispute about.

24 Q. In any event, in your own words, why don't you describe the

25 hospital and its location.

Page 2644

1 A. There are two hospitals in Sarajevo. One was a single cube-like

2 structure sticking up on its own, much photographed by the media because

3 of the damage to it. The other hospital was in a complex that had other

4 buildings around it, in more like a university setting.

5 Again, pardon me, I always mixed the two up, but I know which one

6 I saw the Bosnian government forces fire a mortar from, and that was the

7 one that was complex-like.

8 Q. And are you able to tell us, if can you recall, how they are

9 situated in relationship to each other by direction? Which one -- is one

10 to the north, to the west, to the east, or is that something you cannot

11 recall?

12 A. Yes, I can recall that. The much-photographed one was not far

13 from the main drag. It was east of the former Tito barracks. The other

14 one kind of up in the back, going up towards the Olympic stadium, kind of

15 up in that neighbourhood. I could find them both on a map, if I had to,

16 but ...

17 Q. I actually think you've been sufficiently clear, so I'm not going

18 to take the time to do that, but thank you.

19 Now, how many times -- you say you saw the Bosnian Muslims use a

20 portable mortar from that hospital in late 1994. How many times did you

21 see that?

22 A. I saw it once and thought I heard it happen on a couple of other

23 occasions.

24 Q. Turn, please, to paragraph 38, where you talk about air bombs, one

25 of the paragraphs you talk about air bombs, and you say: "There is no way

Page 2645

1 the Bosnian Muslims could have had something that big without us knowing

2 about it."

3 Can you explain that statement, please.

4 A. By "us," I mean everybody. A weapon that large would be the size

5 of a small drilling rig. You could not use it without the whole

6 neighbourhood knowing it. It wasn't a question of myself and my personnel

7 being so well informed. It would be the equivalent of a group of guys

8 driving a large drilling rig, setting up in a neighbourhood, launching

9 something and nobody seeing anything. I do not believe that was possible.

10 Q. Look, please, at paragraph 41, where you describe the corps

11 headquarters at Lukavica. How many times did you go to that headquarters

12 in Lukavica?

13 A. At least half a dozen. We visited it before -- we usually visited

14 Lukavica -- before visiting the local firemen or meeting with someone in

15 Pale, we would usually stop in Lukavica, just to stop and say hello before

16 we went about our business.

17 Q. In paragraph 44 you describe an incident where UNPROFOR soldiers

18 came under attack where you were present. Do you know, were you able to

19 tell, on that occasion where the firing came from?

20 A. Yes. We were on our way to the US embassy for a country team

21 meeting prior to the arrival of President Carter, and a spasm of shooting

22 started in front of the Holiday Inn that included small arms, automatic

23 weapons, a couple of mortar rounds, a couple of RPGs. Just a 10-,

24 15-minute flare of random violence that came and went.

25 Q. But my question was: Were you able to determine where that fire

Page 2646

1 came from?

2 A. Yes. It was coming from the BSA-occupied buildings to the south

3 of the museum.

4 Q. Did you -- now this is a question that does not pertain to a

5 specific paragraph in your statement. Did you become aware of a tunnel in

6 the area of the airport?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And could you just briefly describe that. Did you yourself go

9 into that tunnel?

10 A. Yes, five times altogether.

11 Q. Could you just briefly describe it for the Trial Chamber.

12 A. The tunnel could have benefitted from a good engineer; I would

13 recommend Vietnamese myself. It was particularly narrow; half the time

14 full of water; one-way traffic; had a small rail system to put carts on

15 that constantly fell apart; lights that constantly went out; a ventilation

16 system that was inadequate. A ratty little water-filled tunnel.

17 Q. Another topic. Did you ever hear of Bosnian government sniping

18 positions at the museum?

19 A. The Bosnian government maintained sniping positions opposite their

20 protagonists just about everywhere in Sarajevo. Never heard of them in

21 the museum itself but out back.

22 Q. Did you ever hear of those snipers at the back of the museum

23 firing on their own people, that is, firing on people on the Bosnian

24 government side?

25 A. Yes, I heard about that all the time but never saw it myself, nor

Page 2647

1 do I believe it to have occurred, since that was one of the areas where we

2 would pre-position ourselves quite often. And if I'd seen or believed

3 that to be occurring for one second, I would have pulled my people out and

4 informed authorities that that's what was happening, just like I did with

5 the mortar.

6 Q. Finally, I'm just going to show you a few brief clips and perhaps

7 one document to finish up.

8 MR. WHITING: If we could switch to the Sanction and look at clip

9 number 2.

10 Q. And I'm going to ask you, sir, when this occurred and maybe one or

11 two other questions about it.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Mr. Jordan, to your recollection, when did that occur?

15 A. That was December 1993.

16 Q. And approximately where in Sarajevo is that?

17 A. It was a residential district just north of the PTT building.

18 Q. On that occasion, did the -- after the building collapsed and

19 while the rescue was going on, was there any -- did the rescuers come

20 under any shelling or sniping?

21 A. They did not come under sniper fire. There was a lengthy

22 inconsistent artillery, i.e., rockets in this case. It was a rocket that

23 brought the building down. The rescue of the child would not have been

24 possible had we not been in contact with the Lukavica barracks via PTT,

25 who, when we told them that it was a residential area, that there were

Page 2648

1 children trapped, could they please cease-fire, they did. And that's when

2 the UN troops were sent up to assist us with their heavy equipment.

3 MR. WHITING: Could this clip be admitted into evidence, please.


5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P269, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, did you shoot that video

7 or was it the UN?

8 THE WITNESS: I believe the video was given to us by whichever

9 international journalist happened to shoot it. I cannot say I remember

10 who.

11 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Could we look at the next clip. It's clip number --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic is on her feet.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. Maybe

15 something needs to be clarified, because I have only one video clip on my

16 list and I believe that this is the clip that we've just seen. In order

17 to be able to refer back to the evidence, is this the same video with

18 another 65 ter number? And will it have various numbers afterwards as

19 exhibits? For the future, in order to be able to refer back to these

20 documents, I need some clarification.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Whiting.

22 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. These are all clips from one

23 video, and we've isolated clips. And as I play them and move them into

24 evidence, they will get new exhibit numbers -- I mean they will get, I'm

25 sorry, individual exhibit numbers.

Page 2649

1 If we could look at the next clip. It's clip number 3.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Mr. Jordan, do you know when this event occurred that is in this

5 video clip?

6 A. That incident is from the fall of 1994. I believe Trevor Gibson,

7 one of our personnel there, got shot in the butt that night.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who was speaking in it?

9 THE WITNESS: The gentleman speaking is Mark Anderson. He was

10 Acting Deputy Chief of GOFRS at the time.


12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


14 Q. Mr. Jordan, it says that this occurred -- in the video clip it

15 says it occurred at 4.30. Do you know if that's 4.30 in the morning or

16 4.30 in the afternoon?

17 A. Afternoon.

18 MR. WHITING: Could this be admitted into evidence, please.


20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As Exhibit P270, Your Honours.

21 MR. WHITING: And finally the last clip is clip number 4.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Jordan, were you yourself present when that occurred, when

25 what we see on the video clip occurred?

Page 2650

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were men who worked under you, for your organisation, present?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did they tell you at the time what had happened there?

5 A. Yes. They were in a -- in front of the museum. It was a nice

6 day, so the snipers were active. Prior to this incident, a number of

7 people had been shot and wounded, so we set up to deal with any further

8 casualties. The young boy who was killed had just been talking to one of

9 my fire-fighters, Todd Bayly, and had asked him for candy. Todd told him

10 told, "Nema bombons," no candy, and he walked away with his mother. And

11 within a couple of metres, a single round killed the child and wounded the

12 mother. That's when the boys pulled the ambulance between the source of

13 the gun-fire and the child to recover his body, and later on evacuated the

14 wounded mother and the little girl.

15 Q. Did the people on location tell you anything about where the

16 source of fire came from, if they knew, if they had any information about

17 that?

18 A. Yes. Again, it was a nice day, and that seemed to bring out the

19 snipers. So the building behind the museum across the river, it was just

20 an active day for them. Again, not to be redundant, but on nice days, the

21 snipers came out. That's just the way it was.

22 Q. And did you speak with Todd Bayly in the past few days and confirm

23 your recollection about what he told you about what had occurred there?

24 A. Yes. It was the first time I had spoken to Todd in ten years. My

25 recollections were correct. The impetus in calling Todd was just to

Page 2651

1 answer a technical question about where the boy was standing, to the left

2 or right of the mother, which, to me, was moot. But I thought it might

3 help the Court in some manner, so we gave Todd a shout.

4 Q. And was Todd able to answer that question?

5 A. I don't remember. Was he? Yes or no? I don't know. I forgot.

6 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

7 MR. WHITING: Could this clip please be put into evidence, Your

8 Honours.


10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P271, Your Honours.

11 MR. WHITING: Could we look now at 65 ter number 2960. And if we

12 could -- it's the same picture on both sides. If we could blow it up.

13 Q. Does this photograph pertain to the incident that we just saw the

14 clip about?

15 A. Yes. It was shot by an Associated Press photographer who was on

16 scene. It shows Todd Bayly of Canada right next to our vehicle. The

17 other gentleman is Trevor Gibson of Scotland. They have just pulled away

18 from the museum and put the -- that's our armoured ambulance between the

19 child and the gun-fire. You can see, I believe, the crosswalk is still

20 there.

21 Q. And what is the building that you can see behind there in the

22 upper right of the photograph?

23 A. That would be the museum.

24 MR. WHITING: Could this photograph be admitted into evidence,

25 please.

Page 2652

1 I'm sorry, one last question.

2 Q. I think you have already addressed this, but just to be clear,

3 what is the significance of where the vehicle is located?

4 A. The vehicle is between the child and the man who killed him,

5 straight down that street to the high buildings controlled by the BSA.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have you finished or you want it admitted?

7 MR. WHITING: Admit it, please, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did he say what GOFRS means?

9 MR. WHITING: I believe it's in the statement, but he can say.

10 THE WITNESS: It means Global Operation Fire Rescue Services, sir.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll admit this as Exhibit P272.

13 MR. WHITING: And finally, I've gone a little bit over time, but

14 with the indulgence of the Court, just one last document. It's 65 ter

15 number 2961.

16 Q. Do you recognise this?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. What is it?

19 A. It's basically an "ata boy" from General Rose, a complimentary

20 letter.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. WHITING: Could this be admitted into evidence, please.


24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P273, Your Honours.

25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2653

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. I have no further questions.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jordan. I'm Branislava

7 Isailovic, an attorney with the Paris Bar, and I'm defending General

8 Milosevic, accused here in these proceedings. And with you, I'm going to

9 ask you a few questions. I'm sure my colleague told you about the

10 procedure. We're going to examine you about -- especially on your

11 statement, the statement that you gave to the OTP on August 22nd, 23rd,

12 24th, 2006. A number of questions have already been dealt with. And I'm

13 also going to use a number of documents that have to do with the

14 statement.

15 So, first and foremost, Mr. Jordan, I would like to start with

16 this organisation of yours. It's an NGO; right?

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. If I understood you right, this NGO is under American law, right,

19 was established under American law?

20 A. That would be correct, for tax purposes.

21 Q. And regarding authorisations to perform missions on the Bosnian

22 territory, it depended on the Bosnian government, I guess.

23 A. Yes. We needed their permission to operate in their areas of

24 control and BSA permission to operate in their areas of control.

25 Q. My question is on the administrative procedures that you had to go

Page 2654

1 through. I guess that, according to Bosnian law, you had to register your

2 company with some kind of authority. Did you do that?

3 A. I had dropped off paperwork about our organisation with the

4 Bosnian government a number of times. Their administrative procedures

5 are -- how can I say? If I can't say anything nice, I probably shouldn't

6 say. But that would probably best describe their administrative

7 procedures.

8 Q. And this administrative procedure, was there some kind of official

9 document about your NGO that eventually was drafted or something? Was

10 there any kind of official paper?

11 A. There had to be at one point or another, but because we were under

12 UNHCR and because we carried UNHCR ID, it was kind of a blanket thing.

13 Even though the Bosnian government did afford us with ID in the early days

14 before we became part of the UN, a lot that occurred during UNHCR and

15 UNPROFOR operations in this area was ad hoc. They were doing things they

16 had never done before, and from what I've learned, they have done things

17 they have never done since.

18 Q. So to try and help us continue with other evidence, could you tell

19 us exactly when exactly you -- when exactly you became part of the UNHCR?

20 When did you come under their auspices?

21 A. The UNHCR had two levels of auspices. They gave out UNHCR ID

22 cards to hundreds of organisations from 1992 to 1995. This was, in

23 effect, the UNHCR telling the warring parties that these organisations are

24 legitimate. The next level was what was called implementing partner

25 status. An organisation received implementing partner status with the

Page 2655

1 UNHCR when it accepted funding from them.

2 We had operated on our own from November 1992 until, I believe it

3 was, March 1993, the first time the UN offered us funding. That did not

4 actually occur until, I believe, May or June, when the paperwork was

5 worked out. At that point, GOFRS, which was our organisation, implemented

6 what we came to call the UN Fire an Emergency Medical Service, UN Fire

7 EMS. I'm not sure anyone told Boutros-Ghali, but that is the way it was.

8 Q. Yes, Mr. Jordan, on this last question regarding all this, on the

9 videos I noticed that you were still -- you still had your NGO emblems.

10 Was that true, after you became part of UN?

11 A. Our uniforms, station uniforms, if you will, were the dark blue

12 ones with white "UN Fire EMS" on the pocket and "GOFRS" on your shoulder,

13 the equivalent to when WHO puts its logo on aircraft. Even though it's

14 part of the UN, UNHCR is part of the UN, they put "UNHCR" on their

15 aircraft. Basically in that venue.

16 Q. And financially, did you have donations? Did this NGO get

17 donations?

18 A. Yes, we received donations from the international fire-fighting

19 community, primarily the US as far as dollars went. Different European

20 fire-fighting agencies donated many vehicles and equipment which was

21 compatible with that which the locals on both sides used in Sarajevo. We

22 delivered three trucks in one day once; a red one for the Bosnian

23 government, a green one for the Bosnian Serbs, because their equipment was

24 green, and a white one for UNHCR, all from Europe and compatible with the

25 equipment in use.

Page 2656

1 Q. These donations to the two sides, as well, to the UNHCR, were

2 they -- was it donated to your organisation and then you gave them, turned

3 them over, or how did the parties eventually get those trucks?

4 A. We didn't give anything to the UNHCR. We gave everything to the

5 locals on both sides based on need. Say, for example, on one occasion we

6 had, like, 400 pairs of boots come in. We actually divided them up by

7 size in the Sarajevo Bosnian government firehouse, the old one on

8 Jablanica Street, and the local firemen there helped us sort it out. And

9 I think we took 100 sets of boots over to Grbavica because they had less

10 firemen than the locals. It was a question of dividing stuff up.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, we're going to take the break for

12 20 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Jordan, let's continue. Let's go back to what we were talking

18 about before the break.

19 You did not show the funding act of your NGO, nor did you show the

20 balance -- the balance sheet of your NGO to the Prosecutor; am I right?

21 A. That would be correct. Yes, ma'am.

22 Q. Do you have them at home?

23 A. I don't think so. Anything ten years old -- I haven't been in the

24 States much since then, so I don't think I have got them laying around.

25 Maybe one of the other guys does.

Page 2657

1 Q. Thank you. Now, let's move to something you mention in your

2 statement, something you also discussed today regarding your military

3 career. You joined the US Army when you were 17; is that correct?

4 A. No, ma'am. I joined the US Marines when I was 17.

5 Q. I see. I don't know much about this, but isn't that part of the

6 US Army?

7 A. No, ma'am. It's actually -- pardon me. It's actually within the

8 department of the navy.

9 Q. Okay. I have just received an explanation from my French

10 interpreter. But you were a platoon head or sniper, as a sniper?

11 A. Yes, ma'am. My last job was Chief Scout Sniper of an infantry

12 battalion. That fell within the STANO platoon, STANO meaning

13 surveillance, target acquisition, and night operations.

14 Q. But am I right in saying that from 1993 -- I'm sorry, no. 1973,

15 yes, that's what I meant. When you were 17, you started your military

16 career, so to speak, as a marine or as a soldier at least.

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. If I understood correctly your statement, you specialise in

19 sniping.

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. And your task in Sarajevo had to do with fire, and of course this

22 could be understood in different ways. You were a fire-fighter, so you

23 were fighting against fire and fires; right?

24 A. Yes, ma'am.

25 Q. And to be more specific, in paragraph 15, and I believe this is a

Page 2658

1 paragraph you discussed with Mr. Whiting a moment ago, paragraph 15 of

2 your statement, you referred to this other type of fire, mainly shooting.

3 Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. And in a way, your task in Sarajevo was also to fight snipers, if

6 I understood correctly.

7 A. It did evolve into that, ma'am.

8 Q. Mr. Jordan, were you aware of the Anti-Sniping Agreement which was

9 signed by the warring factions?

10 A. I had heard of it, yes, ma'am.

11 Q. And did you know that the French Battalion, I believe, was in

12 charge of this anti-sniping fight?

13 A. I know they were in charge of it at one time. I believe the duty

14 rotated among UN forces. Whoever had reaction duty would respond to

15 sniping, but we found the vast majority of UN forces reluctant to actually

16 do what they said they were going to do on paper.

17 Q. In a sense, what they were supposed to do on paper was done by you

18 in practice.

19 A. Our mission was to assist the fire-fighters on both sides in

20 whatever way we could. We found that they were very -- on both sides,

21 they were very competent fire-fighters, they used similar equipment, but

22 their biggest need after equipment was protection and fuel. So it fell to

23 us as part of the overall job.

24 Q. If I understood, when you arrived in Sarajevo, you had a specific

25 task which was, in fact, to protect fire-fighters. Wasn't that the case?

Page 2659

1 A. No. My first -- when I first arrived in Sarajevo, it was to see

2 what they needed. I was quite surprised to find out that the primary need

3 of fire-fighters on both sides was protection. I was ignorant of UN

4 operations. I had never been involved in one, so I thought the UN was

5 protecting the firemen and didn't find out until I got there that they

6 really weren't.

7 Q. Yes, that's what I was driving at when I asked the question. You

8 realised then that UNPROFOR was not protecting these people; is that

9 right?

10 A. Not consistently, ma'am, no.

11 Q. And specifically in this case of fire-fighters who were just doing

12 their job; right?

13 A. Yes. In the course of doing their normal duties, firemen on both

14 sides would be targeted and were taken casualty.

15 Q. And at that stage your mission, so to speak, changed a little bit

16 and became more a fight against snipers than the protection of

17 fire-fighters. Am I right in saying so?

18 A. It was an element. We still did an awful lot of fire-fighting,

19 medical, and transport of supplies. We did an awful lot of talking with

20 both side to keep lines of communication open, and that minimised the

21 violence against both sides. The UN protection order of September 1993

22 drastically reduced the violence against both sides' firemen.

23 When we did have to respond, we did so with reluctance, not

24 relish. It became a focus of people, like the media, but we never

25 considered it the biggest part of what we were trying to do. We tried to

Page 2660

1 reduce the violence in many ways.

2 Q. In paragraph 15 of your statement, a moment ago you referred to

3 this procedure; I'll call it the spotting procedure, when you were trying

4 to spot snipers.

5 A. Yes, ma'am.

6 Q. Very often you located snipers and then you would convey that

7 information to UNPROFOR; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that was what we tried to do.

9 Q. You see, before this Trial Chamber, we've seen a lot of sitreps,

10 or situation reports, emanating from UNPROFOR. I myself did not realise

11 that your mission was in fact defined on those situation reports. Do you

12 know more about this?

13 A. I am not at all surprised that there may be little to no

14 documentation of exactly what our job evolved into. Even with regards to

15 the September 1993 paperwork from UNPROFOR, because UNPROFOR troops in

16 Sarajevo generally only spent 90 days there, there was a constant rotation

17 and there was -- in the military, one makes an effort to pass on

18 information to the person who relieves him. This was severely lacking in

19 UN operations. We were constantly having to reintroduce ourselves to

20 every new UN unit that came in, and some of them told us right to our

21 face, No, the French wrote this; we're not going to do it. So we just

22 handled it ourselves and no one ever told us not to.

23 Q. You did it of your own accord, then.

24 A. Not so much of our own accord. When the system broke down because

25 of UN reluctance to do what it said it was going to do, we merely

Page 2661

1 exercised our right of self-defence. We never got involved in what I

2 would call real estate deals, i.e., combat, trading lives for real estate,

3 to control a piece of ground. That was never something we did. We were

4 also careful not to allow either side to manipulate us into being a force

5 multiplier for them. We were very careful of that.

6 Q. Yes. So you also did some stand-by duty on a number of

7 locations. On the days when the weather was good, you said that you were

8 on stand-by duty.

9 A. Yes. Again, different days snipers would be active.

10 [French on English channel]

11 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, we're getting French on the English

12 channel.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are getting French.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Any English now on the English channel?


16 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, there was a little glitch.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So those people were people belonging to your NGO. Those people

19 were on stand-by duty. It was your staff.

20 A. Yes. When we saw the violence level increase in any one area for

21 whatever reason, we would pre-position folks there to reduce our response

22 time to casualties.

23 Q. Who made those decisions regarding the intensity of combat? Who

24 was there to estimate the level of combat violence so that you would go

25 to -- be on stand-by duty?

Page 2662

1 A. The casualties made that decision. When we heard somebody had

2 been shot and needed assistance, we would respond. If, in the course of

3 taking that person to the hospital, we found that another person had been

4 shot in the same location, it was the indicators. It was -- it was the

5 violence equivalent of looking up at the clouds and deciding it's probably

6 going to rain today, that kind of thing.

7 Q. So, if I understood you right, the source of your information were

8 mainly the casualties that you encountered when you were going to the

9 hospital. Is that it?

10 A. No. We wouldn't be going to the hospital and then seeing

11 casualties. If there were multiple casualties in a given area, that is a

12 good indicator that the snipers are busy. So we would then -- instead of

13 going back to our station after dropping of a casualty, we would go back

14 to the area where the casualties seemed to be turning up.

15 Q. Yes, but those casualties, did they come to see you, or was it you

16 who went to see them? That was the question.

17 A. In the majority of cases, we responded to the casualties. We had

18 a few, what we call, walk-in patients at the fire station, but the

19 majority of folks who had been shot were in no position to walk. So we

20 would go to them, particularly if they were wounded in an exposed

21 position, because our ambulance was armoured. The locals had no armoured

22 ambulance.

23 Q. Mr. Jordan, can we agree to say that the place where -- this

24 museum that we mentioned earlier was part of those hot spots, if I could

25 say so?

Page 2663

1 A. That would be entirely correct, ma'am.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like my case manager to

3 display photograph 2819 in the 65 ter list. It's already been tendered as

4 P88, has already been tendered into evidence as P88.

5 Could the usher please come and help Mr. Jordan to show him how to

6 work the electronic pen.

7 Q. Mr. Jordan, here on the screen we have an aerial view of Sarajevo,

8 a part of Sarajevo. Do you recognise it?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 Q. Can you find your way in this photograph? Do you know what is on

11 the photograph?

12 A. It's relatively familiar to me. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. Let's start with Miljacka? Do you see it on this photograph, the

14 river Miljacka?

15 A. One cannot actually see the river, but it's in the line of trees

16 between the museum and this line of flats here. It runs right along here.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please mark this with an M, like the river,

18 Miljacka, M.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Now, the bottom part of the picture, is this Grbavica?

21 A. Part of it, yes, ma'am.

22 Q. Could you show us the delineation of Grbavica. You said it's only

23 part of it. Could you show us where it is. Show us where Grbavica is in

24 relation to that line.

25 A. Yes, ma'am. I believe the actual part of Grbavica is the low part

Page 2664

1 down here, here and here, that way, I think, with that building being

2 split because it was split among the forces. The higher ground actually,

3 I think, has a different name, if I remember right. But this was Grbavica

4 and it kind of stuck out from the kidney-shaped rest of the area.

5 Q. Yes. So when you're saying there is a split building, could you

6 expand on this, please, and mark it.

7 A. I believe it was this building right here, where I have this other

8 line, that actually had both sides' forces in it at one time. It was not

9 really an area where we would go because there was no civilian activity

10 there. We did work up to the front lines on a number of occasions where

11 there were residences near the front lines. But this whole area here was

12 basically a no-go area for us because there was nothing but troops down

13 around there and that wasn't our end.

14 Q. Could you be more specific on those troops? Where were they

15 stationed? Could you tell us where they were located, those troops?

16 A. Again, we didn't concern ourselves with the actual specifics. We

17 knew the areas they were in. For example, in front of the museum up here

18 is where we would position ourselves to protect folks moving up and down

19 the main drag, because they would be fired on -- this was probably the

20 busiest zone right here. But to go down where the troops were actually

21 looking at each other was not our end of it, so we did not do that.

22 Again, we had no business right where the troops were facing each other.

23 We only came in proximity to them where maybe a building was partially

24 occupied by military.

25 Q. Yes. But could you show us that place on that photograph. We

Page 2665

1 can't see it here. What part of the photograph are you talking about when

2 you're saying that there were troops? I haven't really understood where

3 those troops were.

4 A. It was my understanding that the Bosnian government had troops on

5 their side of the river here, and I know that the BSA forces occupied some

6 of these higher structures because that's where they would fire from.

7 Presumably, the Bosnians engaged them from back here, but I couldn't see

8 that because we stayed up here. Again, we had no business running around

9 back here.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. Could you mark where you put the several

11 lines. Put "ABiH" for, you know, the Bosnian government army.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Sir, earlier you mentioned snipers who were behind the museum, in

14 the back of the museum. Could you show that exactly on the map, on this

15 photograph. I'm sure that you see the museum in the buildings, so could

16 you tell us where the snipers were, those who were in the back of the

17 museum?

18 A. I could not, ma'am, because I never went back there. That, again,

19 was not our end. There were no civilians living in those structures, and

20 if -- if the military had any casualties there, they evacuated them

21 themselves because we didn't. We were up here where the civilians were,

22 the front line. Again, while there were some houses where the back of the

23 house was the front line and the other side of it was where civilians

24 lived, that's where we would get in proximity. But this is not an area

25 where any of my guys would be messing around, unless he wanted to get

Page 2666

1 fired.

2 Q. So if you could please mark the split building with a letter. Put

3 a D, as in "Daniel," on that split building, please.

4 A. Is a circle good enough? That's the building I seem to remember

5 was split.

6 Q. On this photograph, do you see other buildings that would be below

7 the Miljacka but that were on territory controlled by the BiH army?

8 A. Well, again, it's not the area we went, but one can assume that

9 since the river was the boundary here to some point over here - and again

10 I wouldn't know where that is right over here - it would be -- I mean, one

11 could assume that the Bosnian government had folks in buildings along

12 here, but I can't say I know.

13 Q. We'll come back to that. But before tendering this photograph,

14 could you please tell me on this photograph the place where the incident

15 we mentioned occurred, you know, where the little boy was killed with his

16 mother.

17 A. At that intersection.

18 Q. Could you please place a number 5 here, because this is our

19 incident number 5. Maybe draw a line to the circle so we can see that the

20 5 has to do with that circle at the intersection.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. And now this street that runs parallel to the river and that goes

23 in front of that yellow building, do you know that avenue?

24 A. I don't know the name of it, ma'am, no.

25 Q. But isn't it the avenue that used to be called "Sniper Alley"?

Page 2667

1 Isn't that the one?

2 A. Ma'am, in my experience, there were a number of places referred to

3 as "Sniper Alley." A very large lack of consistency with names of things

4 in the town.

5 Q. First, before we actually tender this photograph, could you tell

6 me if you see two high-rises that are in the top right of this photograph?

7 A. Yes, ma'am. It would be the Unis towers, I believe they were

8 called.

9 Q. According to your memory, did BiH snipers -- were BiH snipers

10 located in those towers?

11 A. I think it would be correct to assume so. Can't say I saw any. I

12 think it's a lousy sniping position, to tell you the truth.

13 Q. Could you mark these high-rises with the letter U, letter U, like

14 "Unis."

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Do you see the government's building?

17 A. Yes, ma'am, the old parliament.

18 Q. And could you place a letter G on this building.

19 A. G, ma'am?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. The other building that's not quite as high, was it also part of

23 the government building, as far as your memory goes?

24 A. I don't remember, ma'am, if that was actually part of the

25 government complex or something else.

Page 2668

1 Q. Do you remember whether BiH snipers were located in the government

2 building?

3 A. I don't know. I never saw any shooting from there. Our

4 relationship with the snipers on both sides was restricted to whether or

5 not they engaged us. We didn't seek a relationship with them and didn't

6 get to know them.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

8 tender this annotated photograph into evidence.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D79, Your Honours.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Jordan --

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, while we are still at that photo, could

14 you please ask the witness to explain just why he thought the Unis

15 building would be a bad sniping position.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to what I

17 heard in my headphones, I didn't hear really well the witness, but I

18 believe what he said was quite the opposite. But I can put the question

19 again to the witness.

20 Q. Mr. Jordan, a moment ago we talked about the Unis towers. You put

21 the letter U on those buildings. Judge Harhoff wanted me to put the

22 question to you again: Was this place a good sniping location or not?

23 A. Personally, I wouldn't use it because it's a tall, cold, isolated

24 building, and if you tried to take a shot out of it, anybody within 2.000

25 metres and a good thermo-sight would know you were moving about the

Page 2669

1 building. It's actually too high, in my opinion. It should be a little

2 closer to the ground with access in and out. The building being isolated,

3 largely glass all the way around, no, I wouldn't pick it.

4 Q. Yes, it is a glass building now. But you could have used other

5 storeys in the building, less high than the top of the building.

6 A. The idea of the sniper way up in the building, the sniper way up

7 in the tree, is propagated largely by Hollywood. Snipers like to stay

8 close to the ground. It gives you more options. If you do have to get up

9 in a building with this equipment that is available today, and would have

10 been available then, I would avoid something like that myself, but that's

11 just me.

12 Q. So it's, in fact, an idea that laypeople have, people not

13 specialised in sniping. We believe that you have to be high up somewhere

14 to be able to shoot properly. Is that a false impression that we have?

15 A. You can shoot properly from up high, but you stand the chance of

16 isolating yourself. There have been a number of unfortunate incidents in

17 my country of men shooting from buildings. Those men generally wind up

18 dead because they can't get out of them before the police arrive. It's

19 much the same in a military environment. One always leaves himself a way

20 out. If you are in a tall building like that, shooting out the top of it,

21 and eventually you're going to have to leave when people try to counter

22 you, you're going to have to go through all those cold floors where

23 somebody with a thermo-sight can spot you and ruin your day. That's just

24 me.

25 Q. If I understand you right, if somebody is waiting for you

Page 2670

1 downstairs, your friends, then there's no particular danger.

2 A. You've got to get to them. Again, it's just -- it's just me. To

3 say that -- that somebody not 100 per cent properly trained would do it,

4 that's on them. I'm only giving my opinion here.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We will keep that photograph. Can

7 we have an exhibit number, please.


9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D79, Your Honour -- I'm sorry,

10 Exhibit D80.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. If you remember, a moment ago you discussed a particular incident

13 with the Prosecution, an incident which took place on the 18th of

14 November, 1994. We've just shown the location.

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. I'd like to have displayed on the screen, first of all, a report

17 that we reviewed this morning as well.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is 65 ter 1484 admitted as

19 Exhibit D19.

20 Q. While we're waiting for that exhibit, Mr. Jordan, do you remember

21 that you said that several of your colleagues were there that day?

22 A. Yes, ma'am.

23 Q. Maybe I could reed your statement. This is paragraph 12.

24 [In English] "Trevor Gibson from Scotland, Randy Henderson and

25 Mark Anderson from the USA ..."

Page 2671

1 [Interpretation] Were these people on site?

2 A. I believed Todd Bayly was also there and I don't see his name.

3 Q. Yes, it is here. The first one to be mentioned, Todd Bayly from

4 Montreal, if this is the same person we're talking about.

5 A. The document I'm talking at --

6 Q. No, no, no. Look at your own statement. Paragraph 12. I'm

7 sorry.

8 A. Pardon me, ma'am. I was looking at the monitor.

9 I'm at paragraph 12, ma'am.

10 Q. Well, somewhere in the middle, Todd Bayly, Trevor Gibson, Randy

11 Henderson and Mark Anderson are mentioned.

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. These were the only members of your NGO, as far as you can

14 remember, who were there at the time.

15 A. Yes, ma'am, they were the four men on duty.

16 Q. Did the information you receive on that particular incident come

17 from them as well?

18 A. Yes. I had spoke to all of them about the incident and they all

19 gave me their versions, which varied slightly. But, yes, I spoke to them

20 all about it.

21 Q. Did these men agree on the specific location of the incident?

22 A. The location of the incident was consistent with all the men.

23 Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. Is that the place that you've just encircled, put a circle around,

25 on the photograph that we were looking at a moment ago?

Page 2672

1 A. Yes, ma'am, the one I identified with a number 5.

2 Q. Is that the place you saw on the photograph which was shown to you

3 by the Prosecutor, where the poor kid can be seen on the ground?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. Will you agree with me to say that this was on a zebra crossing?

6 A. I believe in the photo it shows the child down right on the white

7 crossing marks. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. As far as you can remember about this incident and the memories

9 you have of other incidents, do you remember the relationship you had with

10 the local police?

11 A. I would have to say: Which local police? It was a bit of a joke

12 with us that you never knew which local police you were going to be

13 dealing with. The BiH forces did not have consistent command and

14 control. I could have a pass saying that I could operate at night all

15 over from one guy and go to respond to a fire at night and I would get

16 stopped by somebody else's police. The police were inconsistent. You --

17 you know, they were like a box of chocolates; you never knew what you were

18 going to get from them.

19 Q. Mr. Jordan, normally when incidents took place -- we've heard here

20 a lot of policemen who came to testify before this Chamber and they

21 brought with them the reports that they'd established on the occasion of

22 such incidents. Do you remember a specific incident which you

23 witnessed -- first of all, do you remember any incident during which you

24 personally were there at the time when the police came?

25 A. Some form of police would just about always show up. But as far

Page 2673

1 as a police officer taking statements, pulling out a clipboard and doing a

2 job like a police officer would do somewhere else, I literally cannot

3 remember that happening. The only times I remember anything like that

4 happening was when they were trying to give us a hard time about

5 something, you know, a person -- we took a person's body out of a fire and

6 took it to the morgue and dropped it off, and the next day they were at

7 the fire station alleging some kind of incompetence on our part, you know,

8 wanting details, and I basically told them to go to hell; you should have

9 shown up at the fire. The police were, in my mind, nothing less than

10 unprofessional. So no, I never saw them do anything like that.

11 Q. Very well, Mr. Jordan. We'll deal with what we have. We have a

12 report, among others, a report that is now being displayed on the screen.

13 There is a translation in English as well. I would like us to focus on

14 page 5 first, page 5 of this report that we have.

15 Mr. Cerimagic Salko and Pilav Sulejman, the two drafters of this

16 official report, and they're talking here about Mr. Joshua Wooding with

17 UNHCR accreditation, a member of the GOFRS NGO, G-O-F-R-S. This is your

18 colleague, Joshua?

19 A. He was one of my personnel, yes. Josh.

20 Q. So how do you explain the fact that they found Joshua and that

21 Joshua didn't say anything about this incident to you, if I understood

22 correctly?

23 A. Well, Josh probably did at one point or another. I just didn't --

24 it's 11 years. And as far as police reports go, a lot of these reports

25 were generated after incidents that some of these cops weren't even at. I

Page 2674

1 guess the best example is the Bosnian fire chief himself attended a

2 function in Prague in 1995 and made a point of saying the west had

3 completely abandoned the Sarajevo fire department, which I found a little

4 bit miffing after three years of being involved and trying to do things.

5 They developed reports to suit their agendas, not reflect the facts, in my

6 regard.

7 Q. Well, maybe we should leave that document aside, but let me

8 continue nevertheless. It is very interesting. Maybe it does confirm

9 what you just said in fact.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at the English

11 text because it's easier to read. In the B/C/S version, this is the page

12 that is currently on the screen, and the corresponding paragraph is on the

13 next page in the English version. Yes.

14 Q. Can you see the paragraph starting with "There was ..."?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. Can you read it?

17 A. Yes. Would you like me to read it out loud?

18 Q. Yes, please.

19 A. "There was a blood-stain on the spot where the woman and the boy

20 were wounded which members of UNPROFOR, who later arrived at the site,

21 washed with water and later covered with earth, before the arrival of the

22 on-site investigation team. The interview conducted at Sarajevo KCU

23 admissions and triage dispensary yielded information --"

24 Q. That will do, thank you. About that particular paragraph, it is

25 quite unbelievable, isn't it, for people coming from normal countries, so

Page 2675

1 to speak?

2 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object. I don't think there is a

3 foundation for this witness to start commenting on whether a report like

4 this or what's recounted in the report is unbelievable or not. The

5 witness was not at this event and the witness was not involved in law

6 enforcement activities. He was involved in fire rescue activities. For

7 him to comment on law enforcement procedures is really beyond his

8 capacity. And so I think it's a question that is -- it goes way beyond

9 his capacity and is irrelevant for that reason.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll allow the question.

12 THE WITNESS: Actually, I'm not surprised that UNPROFOR personnel

13 did that. There was an incident where we responded to an accident

14 involving UN personnel whose tire had been shot out, and there was a car

15 that went out of control and one man was killed and one was injured. We

16 noted bullet-holes in the tire rim at the time of the accident, and when

17 we went to look at the car the next day, the wheel was gone. So for

18 whatever its own reasons, UNPROFOR -- you know, what doesn't happen they

19 don't have to react to. They did that on occasion. I can't say they

20 didn't because we just saw them do it.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this line of

22 questioning was started by the Prosecutor on that specific incident, so

23 I'd like to continue on, on that particular incident.

24 Q. You know that on the spot a photograph was taken of this poor kid.

25 A. Are you referring, ma'am, to the Associated Press photo?

Page 2676

1 Q. Yes, yes. This is the photograph showing the kid as well as two

2 of your men --

3 A. Right.

4 Q. -- on site where the incident took place.

5 A. Yes, ma'am, I have seen the photo.

6 Q. Maybe we could see this picture and discuss it for a moment.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is P272, 65 ter 2960.

8 Q. From what I understood - I have it here on paper, while we're

9 waiting for it to be displayed on screen - this photograph was published

10 the next day, the day after the incident took place, in the Providence

11 Journal. Did you know that?

12 A. If you saw so, ma'am. I didn't see it in the Providence Journal,

13 but it could have happened.

14 Q. Would you please have a look at the upper part of -- maybe we

15 could enlarge the picture a little.

16 A. I see it, ma'am.

17 Q. Is this the Rhode Island Journal, this place where you come from?

18 A. Providence is the capital, and because our organisation originated

19 in Rhode Island, a lot of our activities were quickly passed on to Rhode

20 Island for local consumption. So I'm not surprised.

21 Q. Do you, by any chance, remember how this picture was sent to the

22 newspaper?

23 A. No idea, ma'am, how these things occurred. But the media being

24 the media, it wasn't my end.

25 Q. According to you, nobody from your NGO got in touch with a

Page 2677

1 journalist from the Providence Journal.

2 A. As far as I know, no. I'd have a problem with them if they did.

3 Q. This picture confirms what you said earlier, i.e., that the

4 location where the incident took place is indeed the zebra crossing. This

5 is shown on the picture; right?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. As far as you remember and according to the conversations you had

8 with your colleagues, did anyone move the body of this poor kid at one

9 stage or another, except, of course, when it was put into the van and

10 brought to the morgue?

11 A. It is my understanding that the child fell where he was hit and

12 was not moved again until the guys put him in the ambulance after

13 realising he was dead. It was a through-and-through gun-shot wound to the

14 head, so there wasn't much question of that. As far as I understand, he

15 fell where he was hit.

16 Q. And, indeed, one of your colleagues saw him, talked to him a

17 moment before, and saw him falling to the ground.

18 A. Yes. The child had stopped by the fire truck and had talked to

19 our guys. Yeah.

20 Q. Mr. Jordan, in your answer to the Prosecutor's question, let me

21 ask the question again: The building in the background, is it the museum

22 building?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. Is this the same building as the one we saw on the other

25 photograph, the one you put some markings on?

Page 2678

1 A. I think I marked the museum, yes, ma'am.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, I'm going to dismiss the witness

3 for today. There's a matter I want to raise in private session.

4 So, Mr. Jordan, you may leave now and return tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2679

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

11 February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.