Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3202

1 Tuesday, 6 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, please continue.

7 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

8 Honours. Thank you very much.


10 Examination by Mr. Waespi: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Did you have a good rest yesterday.

14 A. I hope so.

15 MR. WAESPI: If we could retrieve please Exhibit P328, marked for

16 identification.

17 Q. Witness, if we could briefly finish the orientation about

18 locations of settlements in Dobrinja. Without making these circles,

19 although they look very, very fancy, can you please just mark with numbers

20 the other settlements in Dobrinja.

21 A. This settlement is Dobrinja 2-B, between the river and the

22 Dobrinja D-1; this one is D-1, D 1-2; then Dobrinja 2-1 and Dobrinja 2-A.

23 Next to this settlement is a village or some old houses which used to be

24 in Dobrinja before the building blocks began being built; then at the foot

25 of Mojmilo hill, we have Dobrinja 3-B and next to it 3-A. At the entrance

Page 3203

1 to the Dobrinja settlement, next to the road, is Dobrinja 5, or D-5.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hadzic.

3 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President if this -- the previous exhibit which

4 was P328, the one which was marked for identification last -- yesterday,

5 could be tendered as an exhibit and also this one.


7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, yesterday's exhibit, which was marked

8 for identification, will now be Exhibit P328, and today' marking will be

9 Exhibit P329.

10 MR. WAESPI: And just for the record, the markings the witness has

11 added today are in blue, while yesterday the markings were in red.

12 If we could have a new exhibit, in fact, it's the original one,

13 ter number 03013, please. And this is the last page of that 19-page

14 range; again, the map.

15 Q. And, Witness, while that is being retrieved, this is the same

16 exhibit that you see on the ELMO, and you're very familiar with this one.

17 Can you please explain to the Judge what is these red lines mean. And,

18 first, I want to talk about the red line, and you might want to turn to

19 the ELMO, the red line that is kind of vertical from Mojmilo, the

20 settlement down towards the airport, and cutting off parts of what you

21 call the airport settlement, yesterday. That's this twisted line on the

22 left side of the plan.

23 I would like to you indicate to Your Honours what that is, but we

24 need to wait until we have the image appearing on your screen. And unlike

25 yesterday, today we will have a red line as it appears in the original, so

Page 3204

1 there's no need to -- to mark it again.

2 And just a look at the ELMO, you see the red line there on your

3 ELMO on your right side?

4 A. Yes, I do. That's the line.

5 Q. Can you tell Your Honours what line that is. What does it depict?

6 A. This line in the airport settlement is the separation line. This

7 is where we had contact with the Serb forces. They were across the road,

8 and these were our positions in the airport settlement. On the other side

9 of the line, there were the Serb forces just across the street. This

10 settlement was attacked between the 16th and the 21st of June. People

11 were forced out, and the civilians were forced to go to the rest of

12 Dobrinja; whereas, part of them was taken across the airport to Kula, the

13 other portion of the inhabitants remained there.

14 Q. Thank you very much. If you can now turn to the screen, because

15 we do have the line now on your screen. Do you see the line that goes

16 vertically down from Mojmilo settlement down towards the airport?

17 A. From here?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. From here down to the airport, yes, I see it.

20 Q. And that's the line you just were making comments about a moment

21 ago.

22 A. Not this one. The other one inside the airport settlement. What

23 I see on the ELMO is another line.

24 Q. Yes. Please concentrate on the line that we see on the screen.

25 MR. WAESPI: And if the picture could be enlarged, please. The

Page 3205

1 picture on the screen.

2 I'm sorry. So we see the wider area, so I guess it's the way it

3 was in the original state. So I guess making smaller so the whole area

4 can be seen. Yes. Thank you very much.

5 Q. So, please explain, again, the line the one that you see on the

6 left side from Mojmilo down towards the airport settlement.

7 A. From here, we have the separation line between our forces and the

8 Serb forces through the settlement of Dobrinja 5, the river, and the

9 village there towards the airport settlement.

10 Q. Yes. And can you -- because it's not easy for us to follow you,

11 you have to make a little marking. Can you make a little cross at the

12 line you're looking now.

13 A. I'm putting the cross in the central part.

14 Q. Yes. It's a blue cross and we have seen it now. So that depicts

15 the separation line between your forces and the Serbian forces. Is that

16 what you're saying?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Let's now turn to the other red line on the

19 right side of the screen, and if you can make another marking depicting

20 the line on the right side.

21 A. Again, a blue cross. It is the separation line between Dobrinja

22 and Oslobodenje.

23 Q. And on which side were your forces?

24 A. On the right-hand side.

25 Q. Is that where the word "Mojmilo" is written?

Page 3206

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you now move totally to the right side of the screen. Do you

3 see another red line coming from Mojmilo hill?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And can you make another marking, and please attach the letter C

6 to this other marking.

7 A. A small arrow and the letter C.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. What does this red line depict?

9 A. This red line is the separation line between our and Serbian

10 forces. Our forces are inside the line towards the arrow; whereas, the

11 Serb forces were on the right-hand side.

12 Q. And if you go down that red line, after about, in centimetres, 5,

13 6 centimetres, there is a horizontal line just below the word "Dobrinja,"

14 ending with a dot and two dashes. Can you see that?

15 A. I see "Dobrinja" marking the river on the map.

16 Q. Yes. And if you follow that red line, can you see the word

17 "Dobrinja" and a red dot below the word "Dobrinja"?

18 A. Yes, I do. It is exactly on the spot where I put the dot.

19 Q. Yes. And can you explain to Your Honours what this additional red

20 line that goes off the vertical red line signifies?

21 A. At the beginning of the war, we did not have this additional line

22 or position. Since this was an abandoned school and it was no man's land,

23 during the war, we extended our positions so as to try and prevent the

24 Serbian forces to enter the elementary school mentioned.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Can you encircle the elementary school,

Page 3207

1 please.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hadzic. Now, if we go back to the centre

4 of the -- the chart, there is a red line which crosses the airport. Do

5 you see that?

6 A. Yes. It is the line that I will put a blue dot next to.

7 Q. And can you tell Your Honours what this red line depicts, please.

8 A. The red line represents the tunnel which we had dug under the

9 runway.

10 Q. And when was the tunnel operational?

11 A. By your leave, perhaps I could add two or three sentences by way

12 of introduction. Since we were beseiged and given the situation for

13 almost a year, people were trying to run across the runway, trying to

14 either escape from the city or to return with some food for their

15 families. It was hell. There was a grave need to make a hole of sorts,

16 so as to try and stop the killing that took place on the runway.

17 According to some unofficial data, in less than a year, 120 people were

18 killed on that runway.

19 Usually, the Serbian forces, which were below the airport, opened

20 fire at the people trying to cross. And sometimes the IFOR or SFOR

21 soldiers even turned their lights on the people running across, and they

22 would make them really an easy target. And it wasn't important who was

23 trying to cross, whether it was a child, a woman, or a young man. Since

24 one of our members worked at the airport - he was an engineer and a

25 Hungarian by origin - he brought us the plans, the sketches.

Page 3208

1 There is -- there are drainage pipes next to the runway, which are

2 supposed to take away the rain and takes the water further away to the

3 riverbed nearby. From one end of the airport to another one, to the other

4 end of the airport, there -- the diameter of those pipes was between 300

5 and 1.200 millimetre. By using those pipes, one could move from one end

6 of the airport to another.

7 Next to Aco's cafe on the other side, there was a manhole through

8 which you could reach one end of the drainage pipes, and one could go all

9 the way to the other end; however, that end was controlled by the Serb

10 forces and that provided us with the original idea to make a tunnel.

11 We began digging in early 1993. At first there were problems --

12 Q. And when was it operational, when was it able to be used?

13 A. On the 30th of July, 1993, the two sides met because the tunnel

14 was being dug from two sides simultaneously. The next day one could use

15 the tunnel, although with some difficulty.

16 Q. Thank you very much for your explanation, Mr. Hadzic.

17 If we can return for the last time to this chart, I see there are

18 numbers in the middle of this chart. Do you see those numbers?

19 A. With some difficulty, but, yes, I do see those: 1, 2, and 3.

20 Q. And you can always refer to the original which is still on your

21 ELMO. But before I ask you that question, does this chart with the red

22 lines you discussed a moment ago, does display the situation, the

23 confrontation lines were in summer 1994 and later?

24 A. Apart from the line at Mojmilo, which until 1994 was next to the

25 road, the rest of the lines were as shown here. Only at the end of 1994

Page 3209

1 and beginning of 1995, we moved the Mojmilo line to the top of the hill so

2 as to join the 101st Brigade and to prevent any possible incursion towards

3 Mojmilo hill.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you very much for the clarification. We come to

5 Mojmilo in a moment.

6 Now, can you please look at number 1 and circle number 1 on the

7 screen, and please tell us what number 1 depicts?

8 A. Number 1 is the place which the brigade command was at first.

9 Q. And where was it located?

10 A. It was located in Dobrinja 2 on -- or at a corner of a building

11 where the Borovo shop used to be, where shoes were sold.

12 Q. Was it in one of the apartments? Was it in the basement? Was it

13 on the street level? How many rooms were there?

14 A. It was on the ground floor. Part of the offices were in the

15 basement, although the conditions were poor. There was water, and it was

16 impossible to store anything there, so the ground floor of that shop.

17 Q. And you said it was initially in number 1. Did it move over time,

18 the brigade headquarters?

19 A. Yes. On the 1st of August, they tried to fire from Gacica hill,

20 trying to hit the building where we were; however, they missed and hit the

21 adjacent building as well as some shops in between.

22 After that, after that attempt, we moved the brigade command to

23 another location.

24 Q. And where was it moved to?

25 A. To the building marked with the number 2, across from the other

Page 3210

1 building.

2 Q. Thank you very much. And where was the headquarters in August and

3 later of 1994 and 1995?

4 A. In 1994 and 1995, after we moved to another location, we were at

5 number 2. In 1995, we were there; but by end 1995 when the two brigades

6 merged, we moved to the barracks of Ramiz Salcin or Viktor Bubanj.

7 Q. We dealt with number 2. What about number 3?

8 A. Number 3 was a tactical move, trying to fool the Serb forces. We

9 moved there for a short while; and once we realised they were no longer

10 attacking the former headquarters, we returned to number 2 because in

11 certain aspects the location at number 2 was safer than the one at number

12 3.

13 Q. Can you tell us what number 4 was?

14 A. Number 4 is in the C5 settlement. It was a command post of the

15 2nd Battalion of the Dobrinja Brigade.

16 Q. Yes. You just marked again with a blue circle the location of --

17 of number 4 and just above the entry to the tunnel. What was number 5?

18 A. Number 5 is the command of the 1st Battalion. I put a blue cross

19 next to it.

20 Q. Yes. And the last number is number 6.

21 A. Number 6 is in Dobrinja 5. Is the command post of the 3rd

22 Battalion.

23 Q. Thank you very much. And these positions, were they also valid in

24 late 1994 and 1995.

25 A. As far as I can recall, yes.

Page 3211

1 Q. Now, were there companies subordinated to these battalions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where were the companies located?

4 A. At the separation line. Usually, a battalion would have four

5 companies, out of which three were always on duty and one was supposed to

6 be the reserves.

7 Q. And did they have a headquarters?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And where were these headquarters located?

10 A. At the separation line.

11 Q. Now, you told us a moment ago that your brigade headquarters was

12 shelled. Now, in your observation, was it shelled more or less than the

13 other areas in Dobrinja?

14 A. Neither more nor less. All areas were targeted the same way. No

15 distinction was made between a brigade command or an elementary school or

16 a flea market for that matter, later in 1994. Shells landed everywhere

17 with no distinction.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we could tender this exhibit,

20 please.


22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit P330.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, before you leave this picture, could you

24 please ask the witness if he could explain to us what the confrontation

25 line looked like in this urban area. Were there barbed wire or any other

Page 3212

1 physical, visible markings, and how was it possible for the local

2 population to know exactly where the confrontation line?

3 For the witness's information, I'm putting this question through

4 the Prosecutor to you, Mr. Witness, because we have had many witnesses

5 here during this trial who have told us that they were not exactly sure of

6 where the confrontation line was. So this triggered my interest in

7 knowing a little more about how it would be possible for a civilian to

8 ascertain where exactly the confrontation line was.

9 Could you help us clarify this question?

10 I put the question through the Prosecutor because he's examining

11 at the moment.


13 Q. Yes, witness, I think this is a very important question. Can you

14 answer it?

15 A. Certainly. I would be happy to.

16 Dobrinja is an urban settlement, a modern settlement. The

17 population of our part, that was under our control, knew exactly where our

18 lines were as opposed to the Serbian lines. The soldiers also prevented

19 civilians from going further in case they came to the enemy lines too

20 close. Some people wanted to move about, trying to find firewood, but we

21 wouldn't let them move too far so have as few casualties as possible.

22 The 27.000 inhabitants of Dobrinja new exactly where our lines

23 were as opposed to the Serbian lines, and they were also familiar with the

24 exact spots where they shouldn't go or move about.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: In one case, you told us that the Serbian forces

Page 3213

1 were just across the street. Would that mean, then, that the Muslim

2 people would not be able to go across the street to the other side?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even if they tried to cross over,

4 they would be killed.

5 The airport settlement was a very characteristic one. The

6 separation line between our forces and the Serbian forces was a road five

7 wide. In one part of the settlement, which was under our control, there

8 were Bosnian forces in buildings, and across the road in other buildings

9 were the Serbian forces.

10 Your Honour, it sometimes happened that inhabitants or our

11 soldiers or the Serbian soldiers wanted to get a cigarette because having

12 cigarettes was a -- like an enormous fortune at the time which helped

13 alleviate the pain that they were suffering.


15 Q. Can you also answer the question by Judge Harhoff whether these

16 confrontation lines were fortified. Did they have barbed wire? Were

17 there other distinctive features?

18 A. No. We didn't have any barbed wires.

19 MR. WAESPI: If we could please go to map 028 -- 02872, please,

20 and I would like to talk about Mojmilo hill now.

21 Q. You said that there was some changes to the confrontation lines at

22 Mojmilo hill. Can you tell us what kind of feature of Mojmilo hill? How

23 did it look like?

24 A. I think I already said at the beginning that either on the 13th or

25 the 15th of May, 1992, the Serbian forces took up positions on Mojmilo

Page 3214

1 hill.

2 Q. Yes. I'm mainly interested in what's happening after 1994, when

3 you made some moves to enlarge your area of responsibility on Mojmilo

4 hill. Can you with briefly explain us where you had soldiers stationed on

5 Mojmilo hill?

6 A. Up until 1994, there always danger of the Serbian forces entering

7 Mojmilo from the right flank and thereby enter our area of responsibility;

8 that is, either 101st or the 155th Motorised Brigade.

9 Q. Can I stop you.

10 MR. WAESPI: If the map could be enlarged around Dobrinja. North

11 of Dobrinja we have the word "Novi Grad," and that part should be

12 enlarged, just south. Yes. Thank you. And if you again to the left side

13 of the map and enlarge that part again. Yes.

14 Q. Do you see now Mojmilo hill there displayed, Mr. Hadzic?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Can you mark where the positions of your brigade were in 1994 and

17 1995.

18 MR. WAESPI: And perhaps it could even be made bigger,

19 Mr. Registrar.

20 Q. Just one second, Mr. Hadzic.

21 MR. WAESPI: Can it be made still a little bit bigger? I think

22 we'll leave it. It will take too much time.

23 A. In earlier 1994, we had trenches up to this point, up to this red

24 point.

25 Q. Please add a letter A to the red point. A larger A, please.

Page 3215

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. Since in 1995 the blue route was opened and we started receiving

4 logs from Mount Igman, we decided in order to fortify the inside part of

5 our lines to extend the line and to link it up on the top of Mojmilo with

6 the final point of the trenches of the 101st Brigade. If you allow me, I

7 can draw this line for you.

8 This is where we linked up with the 101st, which definitely closed

9 up any point of entry for the Serbian forces penetrating our area in

10 depth.

11 Q. Did you have soldiers up there, and where was the -- where were

12 these soldiers?

13 A. We deployed part of the 1st Battalion in the trenches in order to

14 cover this line. There was sentry points, there were machine-gun nests,

15 and everything else which is necessary to maintain a line.

16 Q. And was there an UNPROFOR position on Mojmilo hill as well?

17 A. Yes, at the highest peak of Mojmilo hill, I believe. There was a

18 medieval fortress there and observation positions of UN forces were

19 deployed there.

20 Q. Can you depict on the map where the highest point of Mojmilo hill

21 was?

22 A. It's very difficult to do that on this map. I can just do it

23 roughly and put a dot. It perhaps does not correspond exactly because

24 this is not a topographic map.

25 Q. We see the idea. Can you please add letter B next to it; not on

Page 3216

1 the dot, but next to the dot. Letter B, please.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you very much. If we can briefly talk about weaponry.

4 MR. WAESPI: And I'd like to tender this map as an exhibit,

5 Mr. President, please.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P331.


9 Q. You answered, yesterday, a question by Judge Harhoff about

10 weaponry. You talked mainly about infantry weaponry. Did you have, in

11 terms of mortars, did you have in your brigade in Dobrinja 120-millimetre

12 mortars?

13 A. The first 81 mortar was donated to us by the 4th Motorised Brigade

14 in October 1993.

15 Q. Let me just stop you there. Did you have 120-millimetre mortars?

16 A. In Dobrinja, no, we didn't.

17 Q. So let's talk about this 81-millimetre mortar you just started to

18 talk about. You said you received one in October 1993. Did you ever use

19 this mortar in Dobrinja?

20 A. It was a 181-millimetre calibre, but we never had shells for it;

21 however, we did use it to train our men.

22 Q. Did you have 60-millimetre mortars?

23 A. In earlier 1994, when an offensive on Mount Igman started, we had

24 120-millimetre mortars, as well as 60-millimetre mortars, which we

25 deployed in the area of responsibility of the Dobrinja Brigade.

Page 3217

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I thought the witness said --

2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, let me clarify. Did you use 120-millimetre

3 mortars in Dobrinja, or did you use it, if you had them, outside of

4 Dobrinja at Mount Igman.

5 A. As far as I can are remember, not in Dobrinja. We didn't use

6 120-millimetres mortars, but we did use them on Mount Igman.

7 Q. How many 60-millimetre mortars did you have in Dobrinja?

8 A. Approximately, each company had two to four 60-millimetre mortars.

9 They were positioned opposite the company in order to cover the separation

10 line in this particular area.

11 Q. And what's the range of a 60-millimetre mortar?

12 A. As far as I know, between 1.000 and 1.500 metres.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you have guns? I mean heavy guns as

14 opposed to rifles?

15 A. Except for one recoilless gun, which didn't have any sights, we

16 didn't have anything else.

17 Q. And where was the recoilless gun located?

18 A. In the area of responsibility of the 1st Battalion, close to the

19 river.

20 Q. Now let me go back to the -- these trenches.

21 The purpose, the way I understand of these trenches, is obviously

22 to defend yourself against the enemy, and these trenches were at the front

23 lines. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And we have seen that chart with the red lines.

Page 3218

1 Now, was there a second line of defence which was more inside

2 Dobrinja?

3 A. There was only the front line of defence in Dobrinja and nothing

4 else; the front line and that's it. And all our expertise and knowledge

5 was used on this front line, because practically it was impossible to

6 establish any other line in Dobrinja.

7 Q. Were there trenches used, so-called communication trenches, used

8 inside Dobrinja for the protection of civilians?

9 A. Yes. The civilian protection, with the units and men they had at

10 their disposal, constructed or dug out communication trenches between

11 certain settlements to allow people to move around and do -- run their

12 errands. And these communication trenches were actually built in order to

13 provide protection for the civilian population from fire while they were

14 moving around and doing their business.

15 Q. And protection against -- against whom?

16 A. From sniping.

17 Q. And did your soldiers use these trenches which were built for the

18 protection of civilians to fire?

19 A. No. There was no need for that.

20 Q. Now, you told us about the civilian defence. Very briefly on the

21 civilian defence, were they part of your chain of command? Were they

22 subordinated to a brigade?

23 A. No. They were not in our chain of command. They had their own

24 command and their own commander. All civilian protection units were

25 subordinated to this commander and the orders that he issued.

Page 3219

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you told the Prosecutor that there was

2 no need for your soldiers to use the trenches that had been built for the

3 protection of civilians to fire. Can you explain that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Dobrinja battlefield, Your

5 Honour, was a typical urban warfare, so to speak. The communication

6 trenches were inside the settlement, and the separation line led from the

7 trenches as far as 800 to 1.000 metres. Sometimes one couldn't even see

8 the line from these trenches; therefore, it was impossible to fire from

9 these trenches.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you never had to fire either defensively, and

11 you never fired aggressively.

12 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I think there are two types of

13 trenches. The first trenches, as I understand the evidence of the witness,

14 were at the front lines used by the soldiers, and the other trenches,

15 inside, were what he called communication trenches which you were used by

16 the civilians to cross from one point to the other one, if that can be

17 clarified by the witness.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, would you clarify that.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a while ago that the

20 communication trenches were inside the settlement linking various parts of

21 the settlement for the civilian purposes, for their moving around. We

22 didn't have any barracks in Dobrinja or places where battalions or

23 companies were billeted. After finishing their duty, each soldier would

24 go home. However, it was impossible to launch any defensive or offensive

25 actions, because we would jeopardise our soldiers much more than we would

Page 3220

1 jeopardise the Serbian soldiers because of the position of the trenches.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: They were, as it were, internalised?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.


5 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that these communication trenches is

6 internalised. Trenches were constructed by the civilian defence. Did the

7 civilian defence do other things in order to protect the civilians from

8 sniper fire?

9 A. Whatever was possible; for example, from the central part of

10 Dobrinja, which was covered with concrete slabs 40 by 40, we removed all

11 those slabs in order to protect the windows at ground floors of the

12 buildings, in order to protect them from shrapnel exploding in front of

13 these buildings. The civilian protection also did unloading of

14 humanitarian aid, distributed humanitarian aid. They also dug graves and

15 organised and arranged funerals with the families. Dobrinja didn't have

16 any burial site, so we had to make sort of improvised graveyards for the

17 people who were killed in Dobrinja.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. You explained the protection that was

19 initiated by the civilian defence and others for the civilians. Now,

20 which areas, which streets perhaps of Dobrinja were most exposed, if there

21 any such, to sniper fire?

22 A. I would say the central streets, the intersections; the main

23 street connecting two parts of Dobrinja where there was a so-called

24 Mitsubisi avenue, which was the biggest one, or the airport settlement, or

25 rather, the road where a trolley-bus service was running; and all

Page 3221

1 intersections where it was possible to fire upon people.

2 Q. And going to the other side, were there specific hot spots where

3 sniper fire would originate from?

4 A. Are you talking about Dobrinja?

5 Q. Yes, and the area around Dobrinja where sniper nests would be

6 located in your experience.

7 A. I would begin from the Oslobodenje, which is the final point of

8 defence line. The first or -- place, or rather, the house, the so-called

9 Sandzak big red house, was a sniper nest covering the Nedzarici

10 intersection below the dormitory and also the entrance to the Oslobodenje

11 building. The second nest was in the centre for the blind people

12 overlooking Alipasin and the intersection there. In Nedzarici, the most

13 infamous place was the faculty of theology, which was on a higher ground

14 and overlooking the entry point to Dobrinja and Mojmilo as well as the

15 intersection at the entry point to Mojmilo.

16 The higher ground were in Nedzarici where sniper nests could have

17 been placed; and in Dobrinja, actually in the village on the other side

18 held by the Serbs, there was a sniper nest in a house covering the

19 Mitsubishi avenue, and there was another private house overlooking the

20 road leading to Dobrinja 1.

21 From the lower part, the most dangerous place was the bell tower

22 of the Orthodox church and also a place in Dobrinja 4 under the control of

23 the VRS arm. And another hot spot that caused many problems for us was

24 the so-called Vitkovica house below Mojmilo, which covered the middle

25 section of the Mitsubishi avenue and the area around the hospital in

Page 3222

1 Dobrinja.

2 So more or less this would be the spots that I can now remember

3 where snipers were active from.

4 Q. And who controlled these hot spots, as you just outlined?

5 A. All these spots that I mentioned were on the side controlled by

6 the Serbs.

7 Q. And were these hot spots still active in the second part of 1994

8 and 1995?

9 A. It's interesting how they operated, these people firing on people.

10 From one point, they would be shooting for a day or two, then they would

11 be quiet for some 15 or 20 days; and then reactivate this spot for another

12 two or three days and that happened on a daily basis year after year.

13 Q. And who were the targets of this sniping? Was it soldiers,

14 civilians, other people?

15 A. They did not -- they were indiscriminate in choosing their

16 victims. The first victim in Dobrinja was a Serbian woman, 67 years of

17 age. Children or elderly people, women, soldiers, even UN soldiers were

18 targeted.

19 Q. I would like to show you one document, and that's the only one I'm

20 using in examination-in-chief.

21 MR. WAESPI: And Mr. President, Your Honours, this is 02306.

22 Q. While that is being done, who were you subordinated to? Who was

23 your boss?

24 A. At the beginning of the war or -- at the beginning of the war, it

25 was the commander of the 1st Corps of the BH army, the late General

Page 3223

1 Abdullah Hajrulahovic. He was succeeded by General Karavelic; and then

2 following the reorganisation of the army, divisions were formed, we became

3 subordinated to General Prevljak, and at the end of the war to General

4 Ojnadzic [as interpreted].

5 Q. Now, do you recognise this document, Mr. Hadzic?

6 MR. WAESPI: If perhaps the second page could be shown which has

7 the signature.

8 A. As far as I can see, there is a document, or rather, documents

9 collected by the 12th Division from its subordinate units in order to make

10 a composite report about daily events in the area of responsibility of the

11 12th Division. Actually, it was General Karavelic who put all these

12 reports together and filed them in the archives. So these were daily

13 reports provided by units on everything that was happening on a daily

14 basis in their representative zones of responsibility.

15 Q. And I think this document is authored by Mr. Karavelic, the person

16 that you mentioned a moment ago?

17 A. Judging by the signature, yes.

18 Q. Let's go to the first page again, to the first paragraph. It

19 starts: "Aggressor." And let's just have a look at the first two

20 sentences. "In the past 24 hours in the area of responsibility of the

21 12th Division, the enemy intensively fired sniper rifles and small arms

22 on the lines of defence and civilian targets"; and then it goes on and

23 mentions also several brigades, including the brigade 155th Mountain

24 Brigade. That's your brigade?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3224

1 Q. It also mentions that a member of the French Battalion was killed.

2 Now, is that an example of sniping against civilian targets that you

3 experienced in your area of responsibility?

4 A. This document is the best illustration of your question. In item

5 2, our forces, it says, "In the area of responsibility of 155th Mountain

6 Brigrade, one woman was killed and one was seriously injured."

7 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.

8 MR. WAESPI: If this document --


10 MR. WAESPI: If the document could be admitted.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be Exhibit P332.


14 Q. Do you know what kind of rifles the Serbian forces used for their

15 sniping activities?

16 A. According to the information we used to receive from some people

17 from the UN forces, who were at the airport within their area of

18 responsibility, when they would ask or plead with the Serbian forces not

19 to open fire from snipers because a truce was signed, they told us that

20 they would get information that the Serb forces usually used modern

21 sniping rifles called Pasp, P-a-s-p, produced by the Yugoslav national

22 army and the so-called Argentinian rifle which used the 12 point

23 7-millimetre bullets.

24 Q. Have you ever seen a sniper rifle used by the Serbian forces?

25 A. In an abandoned apartment in Dobrinja next to the airport, in a

Page 3225

1 building which had previously been shelled, we saw something. The blinds

2 fell due to the shelling, and a rifle fell out of the window. It had no

3 bullets, and it had some missing parts; however, we had some people in our

4 logistics who worked in weapons production, and they saw the rifle fall

5 down.

6 They told us that this was the Pasp this rifle, this beautiful,

7 horrible, high-tech rifle, and its parts were very modern. As for the

8 Argentinian rifle, I never saw that.

9 Q. What is the optimal range of the PASP rifle, the optimal range of

10 firing at targets of the PASP rifle, if you know?

11 A. People say that it achieves the best results between 800 and 1.000

12 metres, but it can reach as far as 1500.

13 MR. WAESPI: If document, in fact, it is a photo, ter 02981 could

14 be retrieved.

15 Q. While that is being done, can I ask you, did you have interaction

16 with UNPROFOR as a commander of the Dobrinja Brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And given the fact that in your area of responsibility civilians

19 were dying, as you told us, did you protest to UNPROFOR about these

20 instances?

21 A. As I said, the French Battalion was at the airport. Our

22 cooperation was a fair one. We met on a weekly basis and arranged various

23 activities; particularly, humanitarian aid delivery which went across

24 their area towards Dobrinja. They also held regular meetings with some

25 people on the Serbian side. We -- since we were unable to communicate in

Page 3226

1 writing, but rather it was the corps command who communicated in writing

2 with the SFOR, we asked them to ask the other side not to open sniper fire

3 against people.

4 Q. And by "people," what do you mean? Soldiers, civilians?

5 A. Civilians.

6 Q. And how many times would you make such representations that they

7 shouldn't open fire against civilians?

8 A. I think all the time or at least very frequently. It was a major

9 problem for us.

10 Q. Can you please turn your attention to the screen please, to the

11 photo. Do you know what it depicts, what it shows?

12 A. Certainly. It is the Simone Bolivar elementary school, and my

13 children used to attend that school before the war.

14 Q. And I take it that's the building in the middle, which has a sort

15 of a dark brown roof?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember an incident in May 1994 -- 1995 when the school

18 was shelled, and there were casualties, civilian casualties? Do you

19 remember that?

20 A. Yes, I do. I wasn't present at Dobrinja at that time, but I was

21 told that in the flower or greenery garden, as we called it, a shell

22 landed and that there were nine wounded.

23 Q. And I know it's difficult to cast back your mind, but do you

24 recall whether there was any combat activity around the school or in the

25 vicinity on the day that that happened?

Page 3227

1 A. I cannot remember that exactly. I think it was in May 1995 when

2 the focus was on the Igman/Treskavica plateau. I don't think there was

3 any combat in Dobrinja itself at that time. Of course, I may stand

4 corrected.

5 Q. In fact, the incident occurred on the 18th of June, 1995. Does

6 that refresh your recollection of that incident better?

7 A. If it is the 18th of June, then there was little likelihood that

8 there was anything happening in Dobrinja. It was on the 18th of June,

9 1995. The preparations to block the city of Sarajevo were under way;

10 therefore, the focus was up there at Igman and Bjelasnicka.

11 Q. Now, can you see the brigade headquarters of your brigade on this

12 picture.

13 A. It Cannot be seen here, but one can see the building where the

14 command was.

15 Q. Can you encircle the building where the command was, please.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you, Witness. The witness has marked the building at the

18 bottom of the picture with a large red circle.

19 MR. WAESPI: If that could be admitted as an exhibit,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P333.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You appear to have under estimated the time for

24 this witness, because two and a half hours were allotted, both for

25 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, and you have already used up

Page 3228

1 one hour and 12 minutes but plus 45. So that is one hour, 57 minutes, but

2 of course his evidence is important.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, I have a question for

4 the witness, please.

5 Witness, please, you were a commander of a brigade, and I'm sure,

6 as such, you know that something that many experts told us. Many experts

7 told us that sniping is a normal activity of Armed Forces; sniping against

8 military targets, of course, and not sniping against civilians. But

9 sniping against military targets is authorised.

10 So, yourself, in your own brigade, did you also have snipers? Did

11 you also have marksmen sniping the Serbs, the Serb forces. So I'm asking

12 this question because I like to know whether there was any cross-fire.

13 Because yesterday when you answered one of my questions, you said that

14 your brigade had been set up to protect civilians against the Serb forces.

15 So I tend to imagine for that reason that you probably also had

16 sniper -- snipers who were shooting at the other side, and that may be

17 there could have been collateral damage that could explain problems that

18 could have happened; notably, regarding what happened to the school that

19 we see here in this photograph. Because from the photograph, it looks

20 like the school is very close to the command post of your own brigade.

21 I'm just trying to think this out, to understand what happened,

22 and I would like your help in this regard.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd be happy to.

24 At the brigade and in the zone of responsibility, we had no

25 classical marksmen. But we had people at positions who had rifles, and

Page 3229

1 they could be turned into marksmen should there be such a need.

2 As for your other question whether they indeed fired, well,

3 Dobrinja has good acoustics because of the buildings, but cannot determine

4 where the firing came from. But people tried to assess where the firing

5 came from, and they would then open fire at those buildings from the

6 trenches we had. However, I want to stress, and I agree with you that

7 sniping is something deemed necessary in combat activities, but it only

8 applies to the opposing forces.

9 If one kills a girl in an apartment or a girl playing in front of

10 a building or to kill an old woman doing laundry at the river or an old

11 man who came out to smoke a cigarette or catch some fresh air, then that

12 is certainly not acceptable.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, I'm not quite satisfied with the

15 when given by the witness, and maybe if we reformulate the question we can

16 have a better answer.

17 The allegation, of course, is that it has been brought to the

18 Chamber's attention that sniping also took place from areas held by the

19 Bosnian army. And so the question to be put to you, Mr. Witness, if you

20 are aware of any such sniping fire being launched from the area under your

21 responsibility, and also the question is whether snipers under your

22 command had weapons of precision; that is to say, sniper weapons.

23 I did ask you yesterday if you had any weaponry, and I was told

24 that you had only old hunting rifles and small weapons, and now we hear

25 that actually the battalions under your command were in possession of

Page 3230

1 60-millimetre mortars. Now, I would have expected you to give me that

2 answer when I put the question to you yesterday. So I kindly ask you now

3 to give a thorough and full answer to the questions posed by the Bench.

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd be happy to.

6 Yesterday, when you asked me about the weaponry, I understood you

7 were asking me about the very beginning of the war, and I provided the

8 accurate answer. We received 60-millimetre mortars in late 1993 or early

9 1994. At the brigade, we did not have snipers. We had no precision

10 rifles that could be used for sniping; however, we had some marksmen at

11 the front line who had hunting rifles that could be turned into sniping

12 rifles should there be such a need.

13 They probably opened fire on the other side, acting as snipers,

14 but we never issued such orders, and we strictly forbade opening fire on

15 any targets other than soldiers. I hope this suffices.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


18 Q. So are you saying that the sniping rifles you had were not

19 precision rifles, as you had seen from the other side? Because you did

20 see sniping rifle from the Serbian side?

21 A. Yes. And one could tell that these people were professionals. I

22 have no document or information to corroborate that. But the rumour had

23 it that in 1994/1995, in the Sarajevo area of responsibility, the

24 so-called weekend warriors came. They were professionals from the

25 neighbouring countries of Romania, Macedonia, Belarus, and they would come

Page 3231

1 and fight over the weekends for 2.000 German marks each, and then they

2 would take that home with the money and go home.

3 Sometimes our soldiers joked that the best shooters we had at the

4 front line were the people who poached before the war. Poaching means

5 when you hunt illegally.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did I also understand you to say that any sniping

7 rifles held by your side would have been a hunting rifle that was

8 converted to a sniping rifle?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Your Honour. Your

10 Honour, the closest thing that comes to that definition is the hunting

11 rifles that the hunters possessed.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to turn on the

13 other microphone as well. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would the usher see that the other microphone for

15 the witness is turned on.

16 So you never had a rifle that was in and of itself a sniping

17 rifle?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not of such quality as the Serbs

19 did.


21 Q. But you did have proper sniping rifles, as opposed to a normal

22 hunting rifle?

23 A. I don't understand the question.

24 Q. So I understand you have said that you had hunting rifles which

25 could be turned into a sniping rifle.

Page 3232

1 A. In a way. Those hunting rifles did not have optical sights such

2 as a sniping rifle would.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And apart from those hunting rifles that were

4 used as sniping rifles, did you have any other sniping rifles with the

5 appropriate telescopic features?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer this way, and I'll do

7 my best.

8 Given the situation we were in, and given the balance of strength

9 at Dobrinja, any weapon we had, even automatic rifles, could be used for

10 sniping, because sometimes the distance was as little as eight metres. If

11 you able to see the soldier on the other side, you could use a handgun to

12 kill him. But we had no modern rifles that should or are supposed to be

13 used originally for sniping.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


16 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you mentioned a moment ago what you called weekend

17 fighters and that they were paid a couple of thousand German marks. Who

18 paid, and I understand these are rumours, but did the rumours tell you who

19 paid the money to these weekend fighters.

20 A. If they were on the other side, it would be illogical for to us

21 pay them to kill us. They were paid by the military structures of the

22 army of Republika Srpska or the civilian structures of Republika Srpska,

23 the authorities of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. And who would allow these snipers to come to the front lines? Did

25 the rumours also tell you that?

Page 3233

1 A. I didn't know that. But logically speaking, approaching a front

2 line can only be approved by the commanding officer.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, shall we permit

4 rumours in such important matters, and can anyone stand by rumours? This

5 is a question have I for the Bench. These are serious matters.

6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if can I --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will clarify how that information was

8 received.

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

10 Q. I think you started saying that you have heard information, but

11 there was no documents to substantiate that. That's how you prefaced your

12 kind of volunteering this information. Can you tell what was the basis

13 for the information that these people from Romania or Macedonia might have

14 come to snipe at people?

15 A. Our intelligence gained such information through some people, who

16 at the end of 1993 and 1994 and in 1995 managed to flee, previously having

17 been caught and detained close to our area of responsibility. They were

18 later used as a workforce in the area of responsibility of the Dobrinja

19 Brigade. For example, five or six people fled from Bosanska Krupa and the

20 area of Kula, and they conveyed that information to our intelligence

21 officers. They told them about the arrivals of these weekend warriors.

22 We gained that information through such people. I cannot tell you

23 anything concerning the veracity of it, but this is what our they told our

24 intelligence.

25 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, I don't have too much--

Page 3234

1 just to continue onto a couple of issues. Now, were the Serbs, who laid,

2 you know, siege on Dobrinja or who encircled Dobrinja, were they able to

3 observe Dobrinja from their positions around Dobrinja?

4 A. Certainly. They were at various elevations, and they controlled

5 80 percent of all movement in Dobrinja. On the left side, at Mojmilo

6 hill, from that elevation one sees one third of Dobrinja. At Trebevic,

7 there is a telecommunication tower; and with a good sights, you can see

8 all of Dobrinja, and then Grbavicka Brdo to the right, which commands at

9 least two thirds of Dobrinja, provided you have good equipment, you can

10 monitor all movement and all activity in Dobrinja.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. You have spoken about the sniping and

12 shelling of civilians in Dobrinja and that there were casualties among the

13 civilians. Now, how did, based on your observations, how did the

14 civilians cope, specifically did you observe whether or not the shooting

15 and shelling of civilians impacted on them psychologically.

16 A. At the beginning of the war, it was a disaster, psychologically

17 speaking. It affected not only the people who were killed and their

18 families but the entire neighbourhood around the area where someone had

19 been killed.

20 In 1994 and 1995, it became a normal thing, although to say that

21 it was normal is horrific. Only the families who had their family members

22 killed were affected. But as for the others, they just saw one person

23 less. That was the mental state of the population. Death was the most

24 common thing in 1994 and 1995; although, the psychological burden was

25 somewhat less than in the initial two years.

Page 3235

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, if you have just another few minutes,

2 then we'll continue; if not, we'll take the break now.

3 MR. WAESPI: No. I have just one more question, in fact.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 MR. WAESPI: I hear the French channel, but perhaps that could be

6 fixed.

7 Q. You know that the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps from

8 August 1994 was General Galic; is that correct? Sorry, General

9 Milosevic?

10 A. I knew that piece of information.

11 Q. And you also know that the predecessor was General Galic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you meet any of these commanders during the war?

14 A. No. I see General Milosevic here today for the first time.

15 Q. Now, on the ground, you were the commander in -- of the Dobrinja

16 Brigade in Dobrinja. Did you see change when General Milosevic took over

17 from General Galic.

18 A. I did not. I was a soldier --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, I think the problem question should

20 be: Was there a change when General Milosevic took over; and if so,

21 please describe its characteristics.

22 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: To say "did you see change" is very misleading.

24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, I apologise for that.

25 Q. Was there a change, as you could observe from your position on the

Page 3236

1 ground?

2 A. As I said, I'm not a professional soldier. I am an engineer, a

3 technical person, and that's how I see things in life. I noticed the way

4 the war was waged, and I had the feeling that General Milosevic could

5 exercise more freedom than General Galic had previously. He could go one

6 step further in his command.

7 By the end of the war, my assessment, of course, could have

8 changed, but I was of the view that they used a more systematic approach.

9 They targeted the infrastructure and anything of importance for ordinary

10 life. There were two boiler rooms which had previously been damaged, but

11 in 1995 they put them out of operation completely.

12 The central part of Dobrinja has local heating facility on a roof,

13 and they targeted those heating facilitates and the boiler rooms to put

14 them out of work, out of operation. They also targeted intersections,

15 roads, trying to achieve maximum effect. There was another thing -- was

16 the use of vollies, whereby you would have four, six, or eight shells fall

17 to the same place covering the total distance of 100 metres, simply

18 leveling that place.

19 I think those were the differences. And at the end, I could see

20 that he could exercise more freedom in his command than General Galic had.

21 General Galic had the General Staff above him; but close to the end of the

22 war, I was of the feeling that General Milosevic could make decisions of

23 his own without any approval from the General Staff of the army of

24 Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. Just one question for clarification. When

Page 3237

1 you say that the intersections were targeted, who was frequenting these

2 intersections?

3 A. In 1995, people who had cars began working in Sarajevo. Those

4 more courageous among them used those cars to leave Dobrinja to go to

5 work, and sometimes you would have traffic jams on certain intersections

6 and then such intersections would be shelled.

7 Another example would be the bus line established in 1995 so as to

8 try and loosen up the situation psychologically, to do with the away with

9 the fear of the siege, and then they targeted buses. And another example

10 was the blue road which opened in 1995. If there was a convoy of

11 importance trying to enter Dobrinja, it would encounter artillery, and it

12 would stop the convoy or destroy the cargo as they were trying to get into

13 the city.

14 Q. I'm sorry. Just one other follow up question. Who was in this

15 convoy that tried to enter Dobrinja?

16 A. When the blue road was open, or the blue roads, most convoys were

17 from the civilian sector organised by either the executive or the civilian

18 protection, and those convoys were supposed to bring firewood, food,

19 anything needed by the Sarajevo inhabitants the most.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 A. It also included oil.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, you're on your feet.

Page 3238

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Yes, Mr. President. I just have one final

2 question for clarification on Exhibit P333, if I may.



5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you marked that building in red which comprises your

6 brigade headquarters; do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I think you also said that on this building, on this photo,

9 you cannot see the actual headquarters; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you just marked the whole building as, you know, the building

12 in which your headquarter was located?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Were there other people living at that time in the house?

15 A. Yes, my family included.

16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my

17 examination-in-chief. I think it took me about two and a half hours,

18 which includes Your Honours' questions. I have no problem with that. I'm

19 guilty because I overstepped the initial time-period, but just to let Your

20 Honours know that it with would be great if we could complete with

21 cross-examination of this witness today, for various reasons, one includes

22 the health of the witness.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, I shall try not to worsen your health

24 condition, but there is one question that I would like you to clarify a

25 bit more, and that is -- that relates to your account of changes that

Page 3239

1 occurred in Dobrinja when General Milosevic took power in Sarajevo in

2 August 1994.

3 My impression was, after having heard your answer to the

4 Prosecutor's question, that seen from a civilian point of view, the

5 situation actually worsened in Dobrinja after August 1994 in the sense

6 that the attacks were -- became more frequent and became more

7 comprehensive.

8 I want you to tell me if is that correct understanding of the

9 changes that occurred after August 1994, if any.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your concern about my

11 health. If you allow me, I would like to tell you that my blood sugar

12 level is 14.4, but I will try to do my best.

13 It is true that the situation deteriorated in a certain way, from

14 the psychological point of view. One can already see peace coming on the

15 horizon. We knew that the Serbian army cannot conquer us or enslave us

16 or -- and that something like Srebrenica and Zepa could not be repeated.

17 Upon the arrival of General Milosevic, the liberation action

18 started on Mount Igman and Trebevic plateau, and our army was rather

19 successful in that. However, any loss of territory resulted in punishment

20 of civilians in Dobrinja and elsewhere, and I think that would be the most

21 appropriate answer that I can give to your question.

22 And if you allow me to say one more thing that was just

23 remembered. That was the period when there was tactical gain played by

24 the politicians and the military leadership in view of the forthcoming

25 negotiations. According to some intelligence we had, the Serbian forces,

Page 3240

1 in 1995, had a serious intention of entering the airport and capturing it,

2 irrespective of the fact that UN forces were deployed there. Everybody

3 says in the world that whoever takes possession of an airport actually

4 controls the whole state, so that was an additional element in response to

5 your answer. And thank God that did not happen.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for your answer. When were Mount Igman

7 and the other mountain liberated exactly.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The offensive was launched sometime

9 in mid-1994 and lasted until almost the end of 1995, July or August 1995.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] [Interpretation] You know that

15 the nature of cross-examination is such that I have to take into

16 consideration the health condition of the witness; but at the same time, I

17 cannot refrain from asking certain questions that are inevitable.

18 My learned colleague Mr. Waespi perhaps could have curtailed his

19 examination, and I will do my best to do so as much as possible. However,

20 I have a whole bunch of documents that, in my view, are self-explanatory,

21 and I will have to speak certain explanations from the witness. This is,

22 of course, all going to be under your supervision, and it will be up to

23 you to decide when I should conclude my cross-examination.

24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'm Defence counsel for Dragomir Milosevic, and I have

25 a number of questions for you, and I would like some clarifications from

Page 3241

1 you.

2 His Honour Judge Mindua, I think, asked you something about

3 military police. Is it true that before you took over in July 1992, the

4 command of your brigade, which operated in Dobrinja, that in those months

5 preceding July, you spent as a member of a military police unit?

6 A. During the process of self-organisation and the creation of these

7 voluntary units, I joined a group of men who were in sports; in other

8 words, these men were both patriots and sportsmen. In -- in order for

9 them to be able to communicate, we went to the Ministry of Defence and

10 asked them to register us as voluntary unit, and Mr. Efendic, the then

11 commander of the Territorial Defence, and Minister of Defence Djuko issued

12 a decision granting us the status of military police; and in terms of

13 being recognised as such, we were given 30 credentials of military police.

14 Q. Were you armed?

15 A. We were armed with whatever was available at the time. A few

16 automatic rifles, pistols, and M56 Yugoslav automatic rifles, the Russian

17 drum cartridge, but very few were able to purchase something or acquire

18 something.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, on the 4th of March at 1429, I received a document

20 from the Prosecution and I marked it as DD00-01265. Once you see this

21 document on your monitor, I would like to ask you a few questions. The

22 Committee for Collecting Information on Crime Committed against Humanity

23 and International Law, from January 1998 compiled in Belgrade.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

25 be put up, in order for the witness to answer a few questions. The

Page 3242

1 document has been translated into English.

2 Q. If can you see this, this document was drafted in Belgrade by the

3 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I would like to draw your attention to

4 that fact, and this document was disclosed by the Prosecution.

5 Can you see this document, and can you confirm that I read the

6 cover page correctly?

7 A. You just said that this was a document that came from Belgrade,

8 from an institution in Belgrade.

9 Q. Yes, and that it was a Committee for Compiling Data on Crimes

10 against Humanity and International Law. That's also what I said?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would be useful to know under whose auspices

13 this committee did its work. If they were appointed by a particular body,

14 what body was that? Does the document itself tell us that?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can give you an

16 answer immediately, and I think you will find it interesting. This is

17 document was draft in 1998 by a committee set up at the time when Slobodan

18 Milosevic was president of state. I received this document from the

19 Prosecution, and I would like to present --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it the information that I requested? Is it

21 contained in the document, or are you providing it to me on your own?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, I received this from the

23 Prosecution.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You say so, but you're the person presenting

25 it, not the Prosecution, so you should be prepared. If you're going to

Page 3243

1 relying on this document, we need to know its antecedents.

2 Mr. Waespi.

3 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps I can shed light on the source of this

4 document.

5 We received it from the Defence the General Galic. All the ERN

6 numbers that have a Y at the beginning are documents that were given

7 during the Galic case to the Prosecution, and this document has been made

8 available to the Defence of Dragomir Milosevic ages ago, because they

9 received all disclosure in the Galic case.

10 I just saw it over the weekend again, and I showed it to the

11 witness. And I gave it to Defence again because I knew that was the

12 document the Defence is interested in. So I don't know about what this

13 document is about. The Defence in Galic was providing it to us. That's

14 all I'm aware of.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, the Serbian front page seems to

16 reveal that the document was prepared by something called the Patriotic

17 League. Who was that?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, the

19 state of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia set up a state committee For

20 compiling data on crimes against humanitarian and international law;

21 therefore, this committee was an official body of the Federal Republic of

22 Yugoslavia, and this is an official document.

23 I have would probably not have used it had I not received it a

24 couple of days ago from the Prosecution; but in view of some other

25 information, I think it can be used as an introduction into

Page 3244

1 cross-examination of Mr. Hadzic. So this is an official document produced

2 by the committee of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia related to various

3 crimes and persons.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I presume that you were also

6 questioned there; but given that we are looking at this document now, can

7 we move to page 8 in B/C/S and also page 8 in the English version.

8 Q. Let us look at item 3, "Participation of Muslim armed formations

9 in committing the crimes against Serbs of Sarajevo during the war."

10 Can you see that? Can you see that item, that paragraph?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let me read the first two paragraphs to you:

13 "At the time of the beginning of the war, Muslims and Croats in

14 Sarajevo were ready for a war and the forthcoming mass crimes against the

15 Serbs. The police forces had been almost entirely cleansed of Serbs,

16 especially at the management level, and the illegal military units within

17 the Patriotic League, Green Berets, and others had been reinforced.

18 Within the Territorial Defence and reserve police, there had also been

19 some independent arm the units, which perpetrated mass crimes against

20 Serbs since the beginning of the war."

21 My question is: Were your police forces that you were a member of

22 involved in the commission of these kind of crimes?

23 A. May I go back to the document that we're looking at it? It is

24 interesting, Mr. Tapuskovic, to look at the year when this document was

25 drafted. That's 1998. It is also interesting that it came from Belgrade,

Page 3245

1 and I am familiar with this document. I saw it on the internet, but

2 interestingly, both this document and this committee had been set up after

3 the ICTY had been established and indictments issued against Serbs for the

4 crimes committed in the former Yugoslavia.

5 Therefore, since Serbia is the country with a rule of law, I

6 suppose that certain people were tasked with preparing this kind of

7 document as a kind of response or to put up accusations against people who

8 did nothing. As for my unit, which was composed of 30 men, did only

9 honourable work in Dobrinja.

10 Q. Thank you. Let us look at paragraph 2, the last sentence of

11 paragraph 2, which reads --

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: We cannot see it on the

13 screens.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, just a minute. The English is not

15 on the screen; and since you're reading it, it's helpful to the

16 interpreters to have it on the screen.

17 May we have the English on the screen. It's there now. Yes.

18 Proceed.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So paragraph 2, Mr. Hadzic: "And Serbs were killed and tortured

21 both during the forced trench and tunnel digging and in other places and

22 particularly under the Trebevic mountain."

23 Do you know anything about this since you were a member of this

24 unit?

25 A. The Serbs were not being killed or tortured in Dobrinja; neither

Page 3246

1 were they digging the tunnel that you mention. There were Serbs, though,

2 in the civilian protection who were digging these communication trenches,

3 but they were not killed. They were treated as other residents of

4 Dobrinja.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, assuming that this statement in

7 the report is true, and that Serbs were in fact tortured in Dobrinja in

8 the tunnel killing, how would that affect the charges that the accused

9 must answer? In other words, how does it affect the criminal liability of

10 the accused?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can explain that,

12 and we shall come back to that issue many times during this trial. The

13 Serbs were defending themselves in the places where they lived,

14 particularly to avoid what was happening to them in 1992. And the whole

15 point of this conflict, as far as they were concerned, was to save their

16 dear lives and to avoid what was happening in 1992. That was probably

17 their primary reason.

18 That was a paranoic fear of what happened in 1992, and we shall

19 demonstrate that was the underlying motive of all their actions, in

20 addition to political and other reasons as well that permeated this

21 conflict.

22 In the next passage --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that the --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that whatever actions the Serbs

Page 3247

1 took were essentially of a defensive character?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and particularly at the

3 time that the relevant time that we're discussing when they were much

4 weaker, even in terms of the quantity of weapons they possessed.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, always remember if you introduce evidence,

6 it must relevant. It must be evidence that relates to the charges in the

7 indictment and, in particular, evidence that relates to the criminal

8 liability of the accused in one way or the other.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is mention in

10 the third paragraph of the people who spearheaded these actions, including

11 and also --

12 Q. But, first of all, I would like Mr. Hadzic to tell me if he took

13 part in all that at the time.

14 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, your statement that the Serbs were engaged is not

15 true. In Sarajevo, whenever the Serbs were unable to keep these

16 territories following the political instructions that they received, they

17 preferred to leave Sarajevo. The only Serbs who remained behind were the

18 ones who loved Sarajevo.

19 Q. Thank you. Let us look at page 12 now. Can you first tell me:

20 During the whole war, including the relevant period, were there over 100

21 camps in the Territorial Defence of Sarajevo where Serbs were detained and

22 taken away to be executed? Yes or no.

23 A. I don't know anything about that, but I claim that there were no

24 camps in Sarajevo. There were no camps in Sarajevo as far as I could

25 deduce from the footage shown on TV. There were only camps run by Serbs,

Page 3248

1 but there were no camps in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Can you please look at page 12 of this report, item 3.2, which

3 mentions you. Item 3.7 mentions your name, and it also mentions Dobrinja.

4 It reads: "In this suburb, the prison was based in the Baltazar cafe held

5 by the members of Dragan Vikic's unit. There's also mention of Stela, and

6 it says that you were very close to Alija Izetbegovic. However, there

7 were also camps, Poljoo Prema cellar, garages, and all the rest of that

8 was under your control. Yes or no?

9 A. Tell me which period are we talking about.

10 Q. Including the period when you were in the police, and the relevant

11 period that we're discussing here today.

12 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, these allegations here are not true. I know that

13 before the war there was a Baltazar cafe, highly reputed cafe. It was

14 close to the police administration building, but I don't know that there

15 was ever a camp there.

16 Next thing, I don't think anything about Stela camp in Dobrinja.

17 There was a Stela camp in Vogosca, and I know that this is where the Serbs

18 imprisoned Bosniaks.

19 And the third allegation, which says Hadzic was also in very close

20 contact with Alija Izetbegovic, I can say that I am proud to have known

21 our late president; and through my contacts and associations with him, I

22 only became a better person. I could only learn good things, not evil

23 things from him, and I am very happy to have known him.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us about your relationship with

25 Mr. Izetbegovic. How did that come about and what form did it take?

Page 3249

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To cut it short, I met

2 Mr. Izetbegovic before the war. We were not close friends; acquaintances

3 rather. During the first democratic election, I assisted his party to

4 win, in a way. And President Izetbegovic held that in high regard. After

5 that, he offered me a position within the executive, but I refused. I

6 told I have a good job, and I have no need to get into all that. This is

7 how old our friendship was.

8 He also expressed his concern during the time when the situation

9 in Dobrinja was the worst, and when it was psychologically the most

10 difficult for the population. At that time, he came at Dobrinja telling

11 people to try and stay there and not to leave, and I will never forget

12 that.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Another thing concerning this document, you don't even know of the

16 camp called Sunce, the Sun. It was under your direct control. You don't

17 know of that either?

18 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, as I said when testifying in the Galic case, I

19 knew of -- of something else which was called Granap Sunce, the Sun. I

20 don't know of any camp of such name. There was a detention for the

21 members of the Territorial Defence, but I don't know who was held there.

22 We were not part of that system.

23 Q. But there was a detention centre there?

24 A. It was a military formation. The Territorial Defence had an

25 independent battalion within which it had its own detention for soldiers,

Page 3250

1 those who tried to cross the runway; who smuggled; those who got drunk or

2 acted the against the rules of service or the military hierarchy.

3 Q. Another thing. Just below where it is mentioned that were in

4 close contact with Milosevic, under 3-8, it say, Himzo Cesko, who was a

5 policeman before the war in Sarajevo, had his own sniping team targeting

6 Serbian civilians from high-rises in Sarajevo, such as the

7 Elektroprivreda, the Hotel Bristol, and other buildings. Are you familiar

8 with that, even outside the scope of the relevant time that we're

9 discussing now?

10 A. I found it ridiculous that you ask that question. I was in

11 Dobrinja. We were under siege, and I don't know of many things in the

12 city, and I don't know this person mentioned here.

13 Q. Did you at least hear about the tactics they employed, that those

14 policemen with the assistance of the MUP assumed positions in those

15 high-rises, and then snipers were advised as to the location of Serb

16 civilians, so as to target them. That would take place after such

17 civilians would go through a checkpoint, and then it would be radioed to

18 the snipers to target them?

19 A. I don't know of it.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to tender this

22 document, being DD00-01265.


24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D104.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3251

1 Q. Very well. I respect your position concerning this document since

2 it originated from the FRY, and I'm not trying to put here that it was

3 proven. However, is there a proceedings against you before the cantonal

4 court in Sarajevo, a biforked [as interpreted] proceedings?

5 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, during the last elections, I was on the federal

6 list of candidates for a deputy. The court provided their approval for

7 each and every person on the list. Had there been any proceedings

8 instituted against me, my name could not have been there.

9 I don't know of any investigations or proceedings before either

10 the cantonal or any other court, which is confirmed by the example I

11 provided.

12 Q. In order to place your name on the federal electoral list, you

13 have to provide a certificate by the cantonal court, where now its

14 proceedings are taking place against you and that you have no previous

15 criminal record.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, in the question that you asked

17 something has been translated as a "biforked proceeding." "Biforked

18 proceedings." What is it that you have in mind here?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There are two separate criminal

20 proceedings against Mr. Hadzic. I was imprecise or rather the

21 interpretation was erroneous.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We have his answer.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I never understood politics; hence, I'm asking you

25 directly. A document under the number KT 326 from 2006. In any case, it

Page 3252

1 is KT 326/95. Although, that may be incorrect.

2 In any case, is there an investigation or proceedings against you

3 for a murder of a Bosniak by the name of Rajif Kordic? Yes or no?

4 A. This is the first time I hear of it, and I hear it from you,

5 Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 Q. Very well. Is there an investigation against you for the murder

7 of 15 Muslims? Was there a criminal report submitted for that crime

8 claiming that you participated in their killing; whereas, it was portrayed

9 as if the Serbs killed them. One of the people involved was Rajif Kordic.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Is there a proceedings against you for the murder of 30 Serbian

12 inhabitants who were killed digging trenches, as was stated in the

13 previous document?

14 A. No, or rather, I don't know about it. I guess the court would

15 have let me know.

16 Q. Very well. I have another piece of information --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, in relation to all these

18 questions, which are so specific as they relate to legal proceedings

19 against the accused, do you have at hand the various court documents with

20 these charges?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I received that information a few

22 days ago, and I will certainly forward it to the Bench. These are court

23 documents, these being criminal records or investigations or criminal

24 reports. I don't have them right now, but I will be in a position to hand

25 them over. I just wanted to ask the witness whether he is familiar with

Page 3253

1 any of it.

2 Just one more thing --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, before you say one more thing, I will say

4 that I will take a very dim view of what you have done in putting these

5 allegations to the witness if you don't have supporting documents. I see

6 this as different from the usual case where a Defence counsel will put to

7 a witness a certain point of view on the basis of instructions that he

8 has. And in presenting his case, in presenting the Defence case, the

9 counsel will adduce that evidence.

10 But what kind of weight would you expect us to attach to this line

11 of questioning if you don't have that documentation to put to the witness?

12 I will attach very little weight to it, and I take a very dim view of that

13 kind of approach. So I expect you to produce the court documents with

14 these allegations.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is very difficult

16 to position oneself in a case like this. But in any case, I will have

17 those documents. And although the witness will not be here anymore, I'm

18 sure I am not mistaken. Since he was allowed to talk about rumours in the

19 examination-in-chief, I think this should be allowed as well. These are

20 not rumours. These are matters before the cantonal court.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is on an entirely different plane. These

22 are serious allegations. This has nothing to do with a rumour. If you

23 have been instructed as part of your Defence case that this witness has

24 been charged by courts in this country with certain crimes, I would expect

25 you to have the court documents verifying this. And I expected you to

Page 3254

1 have it now, not in two or three days times when the witness is not here

2 to address them.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour. I

4 was trying to tell you that we have an investigation under way, but at the

5 same time we are very limited in resources in terms of personnel. I see

6 that you attach great importance to these documents, and later on I will

7 try to introduce such documents through another witness, if I may.

8 I just wanted to put another thing before the witness, and I am

9 sure he knows something about that. It has to do with a magazine.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I do attach importance to it

11 because counsel has a responsibility to follow certain ethical standards

12 in presenting his case. Responsible counsel doesn't simply put

13 allegations to a witness that he cannot back up. It's not as though you

14 will present this evidence when you present the case for the accused.

15 That I understand.

16 But I see this as being different. You're saying you're told that

17 this gentleman has been charged in his country with particular offences.

18 You must show him the charges. It's not sufficient merely to -- to say

19 that you have been informed. That's not the action of responsible

20 counsel.

21 Proceed.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept everything you said.

23 You're completely right. But from this moment on, I will rely solely on

24 documents and nothing else. According to the information received from

25 Mr. Waespi on the 4th of March, there is a statement given to the OTP. It

Page 3255

1 is document DD00-1263, and I would like to put it to the witness for

2 comment.

3 Q. You see the document. Somewhere in the middle you talked about

4 your area of responsibility. You also said something you said a minute

5 ago. The witness noticed that General Milosevic was more subtle when

6 choosing targets of shelling and sniping activity.

7 There was another thing you said about snipers, and I want the to

8 show you another document that has been marked for identification. The

9 number was D990682. And before the end of my cross-examination, I will go

10 back to the snipers many a time. However, you told us you had no snipers.

11 This is an order by General Legit Idodjic [phoen], dated the 14th

12 of February, whereby he says that "due to the technical need of the unit

13 in order for them to carry out combat activities in full, I record that

14 all brigades are to secure" --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi, you have a point.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I don't think the witness said they we didn't

17 have snipers. We discussed at the length that sniping rifles that were

18 used. Maybe it is a different term. Maybe they're called sometimes

19 marksmen, but I don't recall that the witness said that they didn't have

20 snipers.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is strictly correct, Mr. Tapuskovic. The

22 witness testified that they didn't have as sophisticated weapons as the

23 other side did, but he never said that they didn't have snipers.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It has to do with that. I was

25 imprecise.

Page 3256

1 Q. What you said has to do with the document. In the document, it

2 states that "all brigades are to secure the hand over and transport of

3 three sniping rifles to the warehouse department of the 1st Corps. That

4 means all brigades.

5 "Secondly, the aforementioned weaponry need to be fully

6 operational, and unit commanders are to notify me in person as to

7 implementation of tasks."

8 These are sniping rifles which are in full operational order ready

9 to be used. In that regard, this does not tally with what the witness

10 said.

11 My question is: Does he know of this order and whether his

12 brigade received such sniping rifles?

13 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, you've read it out yourself. The command of the

14 corps demanded the brigade to hand over sniping rifles if they had any.

15 Do you have a document that would state that we indeed handed them over?

16 This is what the corps command asked from all the brigades to hand over

17 sniping rifles. Where did we hand them over, or who did we hand it over

18 to, those modern sniping rifles as you say? Maybe in order to fulfil

19 this order, we took three hunting rifles with binoculars and handed them

20 over, although I don't remember any such thing.

21 Q. I understand what you're telling us.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a translation to this document; if not,

23 may I just ask the interpreter to translate number 1 and number 2 in the

24 B/C/S.

25 THE INTERPRETER: "I hereby order, under 1, all brigades are to

Page 3257

1 secure the hand over and transport of three sniping rifles to the

2 warehouse department of LOB," Interpreter's note: we don't know what the

3 abbreviation is, "of the 1st Corps-Krupa."

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does it say "of three sniping rifles." The hand

5 over and transport of three sniping rifles?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Of three sniping rifles each. My colleague is

7 telling me that the "LOB" means logistics base.

8 Mr. Tapuskovic, just said "each of the brigades."

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am sorry. Can you read it again to me. I'm a

10 little puzzled by the very specific reference to "three sniping rifles."

11 THE INTERPRETER: "All brigades are to secure the hand over and

12 transport of three sniping rifles each to the warehouse department of the

13 logistics base of the 1st Corps-Krupa."

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What does number 2 say?

15 THE INTERPRETER: "The aforementioned weaponry needs to be fully

16 operational, and the unit commanders are to report to me personally as to

17 the implementation of tasks. Deadline: The 17th of February, 1994, 2400

18 hours."

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hadzic, number 1, the interpretation that we

20 received would seem to suggest that the -- the author of this order

21 believed that there existed three sniping rifles and that he was requiring

22 that these be handed over.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect, I

24 don't think you understood item 1 properly. In this order, it is stated

25 that "all brigades are to hand over three sniping rifles each to the corps

Page 3258

1 command." It would be exceptionally clear and most interesting to see

2 another document to go with this commander. That document should testify

3 about the implementation of this order so as to see what weaponry was

4 handed over to the 1st Corps by each of the brigades. Here we have nine

5 brigades mentioned. It should have amounted to a total of about 30 rifles

6 if they had any. Had they -- if they had any, they were supposed to hand

7 them over to the 1st Corps for their perusal. That's how I read it.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why three sniping rifles each? Why not just any

9 sniping rifles? Hand over any and all sniping rifles that are in your

10 possession.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no comment about the number

12 3. I don't know why the staff commander mentioned three and not something

13 else. It is quite clear to me that he himself didn't know what each of

14 the brigades had and what type of weapons they had.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just for clarification, you said that under your

16 brigade, no such rifles were delivered to the 1st Corps because you did

17 not have any such weapons. Is that correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I did not say we did not hand

19 over any, but we may have provided the next closest thing. It could have

20 been a hunting rifle or a carbine with an optical sight that might have

21 met the needs of this order. I didn't see we didn't hand over any. I

22 simply don't know. If we could see a follow-up to this document, an

23 overview of what was handed over by the brigades and what type of weaponry

24 was handed over, then we would be able to establish if indeed we handed

25 over anything and what.

Page 3259

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Your answer is very interesting,

2 because it seems to me that you are interpreting the order to imply that

3 this was an attempt to reallocate sniping rifles from the brigades to the

4 1st Corps. So it was merely a question of bringing some weapons in from

5 the brigades to the 1st Corps where these weapons were needed. Is that a

6 correct understanding of your interpretation of this order?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. Probably the

8 corps command needed these weapons for some activity that I know nothing

9 about.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, item 2 does not speak about ordinary weapons, but it

12 says that "the above mentioned weapons must be fully operational, and unit

13 commanders shall report to me personally about the implementation of the

14 task." According to this order, it means that these snipers were supposed

15 to be in perfect working order?

16 A. If the order specified that PSPs and the Argentinean rifles were

17 to be handed over, then I would understand it. But as I understand and

18 read this, this could have applied to virtually anything. You could hand

19 over whatever you wanted.

20 Q. That is what you say, but the order reads differently, and it says

21 "in perfect working order."

22 A. A hunting rifle, a hunting sniper can also be in perfect working

23 order.

24 Q. The Zrak factory that you mentioned, did it manufacture throughout

25 the war primarily sniper rifles and optical devices for the BH army?

Page 3260

1 A. Probably you should have more information about this than I do.

2 As far as I know, Zrak manufactured only optical devices because only some

3 of them -- the machines and workforce remained there. The rest of them

4 went away or joined the army. Only a few people remained working there,

5 and the factory was virtually closed down. They could have probably did

6 some repair work on optical devices; however, there were no technical

7 possibilities or capacity for the Zrak to manufacture any weapons during

8 the war.

9 Q. Let us go back now to this information. In addition to what you

10 said about sniping, you also said that -- that under the control of

11 Dragomir Milosevic, the activities were more subtle and more precise and

12 more -- and definitely more dangerous than during the time of General

13 Galic. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. By that you imply and include also the incident when the Simone

16 Bolivar school was hit and the TV building as well; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also include here the incidents when a sniper killed two or

19 three people with one shot.

20 A. That would only make sense.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this exhibit

23 DD00-1263 into evidence as Defence Exhibit, please.


25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And also DD00- -- excuse me.

Page 3261

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please give that a number.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Apparently, it's an MFI so we can now admit

4 it.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D99 now.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the old MFI number?

8 THE REGISTRAR: The old MFI was MFI 99.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you have another one, Mr. Tapuskovic?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 0682.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is 0682?

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's an entirely different

15 document. It's DD00-1263, the information provided by the Prosecution.

16 It's an entirely different document.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D105.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I proceed with other

20 documents, I would like to address the statement made by this witness of

21 24th and 25th of October. It's DD00-1083. Let's start from page 7 of --

22 oh, no. Yes.

23 Q. Is this your statement? There's a signature on the left?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let's start from bullet paragraph relating to the defence tactics

Page 3262

1 of the Dobrinja Brigade, and that's on page 7.

2 It starts by you saying that you read a number of books, military

3 books, and that you also read about the biography of General Kutusov?

4 A. No, except General Kutusov.

5 Q. Then you also made reference to Churchill; is that right?

6 A. I can't answer that question. I had to read these books in

7 order to upgrade my military knowledge. We found a book written by

8 Mr. Churchill about how the British defended London during World War II,

9 and this set up of survival for London we copied and applied it in

10 Dobrinja in order for to us to survive as well.

11 Q. Did you ever study anything to do with the military organisation

12 of the Yugoslav People's Army?

13 A. I didn't have any need to do that because I had trained officers

14 on my staff who were able to provide this expertise.

15 Q. And from these officers you received certain information; is that

16 correct?

17 A. No. They just made certain propositions and proposals. If I

18 found them to be sensible and reasonable, I accept them. If not, I

19 wouldn't accept them.

20 Q. Were you familiar with the matters contained in the instruction

21 on working maps how certain placement of artillery and other weapons are

22 to be marked within the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23 A. No, I was not interested in those kind of markings. I was only

24 interested in survival and maintaining life. There were shortages of gas

25 and everything else. We had to find a way to defend ourselves and how to

Page 3263

1 bring all these 27.000 people until the end of the war, and to protect

2 them from genocide.

3 Q. In your working military maps, how did you mark certain positions

4 of yours? Both firing position and command position.

5 A. Until I can see a map, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

6 Q. Can you just tell me this about the mountain brigade: You said

7 that a mountain brigade is something named in that way or described in

8 that way according to the number of troops; is that correct?

9 A. I said that as far as I know, a mountain brigade, on paper, is a

10 brigade that should, as per establishment, have a certain number of men

11 and equipment?

12 Q. Did you ever go up to Mojmilo hill where you held positions? Were

13 you a mountain brigade at that time as well, because you were on a hill

14 and that's why you were called a mountain brigade?

15 A. I don't think that's true. As a brigade we never went up the

16 Mojmilo hill, but we, rather, in 1992, cut off Mojmilo and closed the

17 circle in order to prevent the Serbian forces of penetrating our area.

18 By the way, a mountain brigade is not called after a mountain or

19 a hill. It has its name according to establishment.

20 Q. So you claim that at the relevant period, when Dragomir Milosevic

21 was the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, a part of Mojmilo was

22 under your control and the other part of Mojmilo was under the control of

23 Dragomir Milosevic and his troops.

24 A. No. I'm saying that a part of Mojmilo was no-man's land- that

25 was on the left-hand side where the water reservoir was- until that time

Page 3264

1 when, in 1995, we connected trenches with the 101st Brigade and closed

2 the circle. The right-hand side of Mojmilo was under the control of

3 Mr. Milosevic as far as Vraca.

4 Q. In other words, both the VRS was on Mojmilo.

5 A. It has its lines on the peaks of the hills that were under their

6 control.

7 Q. Therefore, you are saying that they were not at the foot of the

8 hill.

9 A. They were always on the other side. At the foot of the hill

10 there is one of the barracks in Lukavica. Serbian forces had held the

11 Mojmilo hill, and at the foot of it, there was the former JNA barracks in

12 Lukavica, one of the two that they had there.

13 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that this barracks was completely below

14 or at the foot of Mojmilo hill?

15 A. I don't understand your question. What do you want to hear from

16 me?

17 Q. Thank you very much. I have heard enough.

18 Let us go back to the statement, and I have to read a part

19 concerning the defensive tactics of Dobrinja Brigade. At page 7,

20 paragraph 3, you say as follows:

21 "Using the British manuals as a guide, we constructed trenches 2

22 metres deep all around the perimeter of Dobrinja, except the portion

23 facing the airport. The trenches were built with a fire step, with a

24 protective firing position, a drainage channel, and were deep enough to

25 protect the soldiers from view and direct fire."

Page 3265

1 And at the end you say that the trenches were sandbagged and

2 riveted. Is that correct?

3 A. Everything is correct except that we didn't have sand and we

4 didn't reinforce them with stone but rather with -- we put slabs at the

5 bottom of trenches to make walking easier. Dobrinja, geographically

6 speaking, is a water source area. Every 1.5 or 2 metres deep you run

7 into water. Whenever you start digging a trench, after 1 or 2 metres,

8 you discover water. And that was one of the reasons why we used this

9 British warfare manual, where the British used to dig trenches in moors,

10 and from that we learned how to drain the trenches.

11 So at the elevation of 50 centimetres, we use the slabs, to place

12 them there to facilitate walking, and to build the communication

13 trenches. If we didn't do that, we would be constantly standing or

14 walking in water.

15 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in this last sentence, which

16 says: "The trenches were sandbagged and were reinforced with stone." You

17 said you didn't have sand. How do you explain and account for this being

18 stated in your statement? Is that correct or not?

19 A. There were no -- there was no sand lining of the trenches.

20 However, the soldiers were protected with bags filled with all kinds of

21 material.

22 Q. Let us look at the last paragraph on page 7, which says: "Company

23 HQ were in buildings nearby in warm shelters so that they could retain

24 command and control. A long trench was constructed starting on Mojmilo,

25 zigzagging down the hill."

Page 3266

1 Is that correct? Is that correct?

2 A. A long trench was constructed, zigzagging down the hill.

3 Q. Maybe this is a misinterpretation.

4 A. There was no trench on Mojmilo. However, there is a natural

5 depression resembling a trench where -- which could provide access to

6 Mojmilo. However, a long trench was built on Mojmilo. It was -- it

7 probably refers to the one dug out in 1995, which connected our two

8 units, in order to prevent precipitation entering the trenches. And that

9 is why we built it in a zigzag shape, as far as the position of the 101st

10 Brigade.

11 Q. I don't understand you now. First you said it's not correct; now

12 you're saying it is.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just continue. Continue.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. First, you said there was no zigzag trench.

16 A. This zigzag trench was dug out in early 1995, at the same time

17 when the blue road was opened.

18 Q. At the time of Dragomir Milosevic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Look a little bit down there, where you say that there were

21 firing positions in buildings. In other words, you had firing positions

22 in civilian facilitates.

23 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, those buildings were abandoned and burned. There

24 were no civilians there. On the edges of Dobrinja neighbourhood, all

25 buildings were burned. There was no one living there. In Dobrinja 5

Page 3267

1 alone, 880 flats were destroyed. During the war, in the whole of

2 Dobrinja, 3.000 flats were destroyed and 2.000 were rendered

3 uninhabitable. All these buildings on the edges of the suburb were

4 shelled and destroyed, and there was no one else staying there apart from

5 the soldiers.

6 Q. But you did have firing positions that were situated in civilian

7 residential areas.

8 A. If you listened or looked carefully on the map of our trenches,

9 you could have seen that they followed natural configuration of the

10 terrain, avoiding all residential buildings. If it ran into a building,

11 we had to maintain this line, but these buildings were vacated. That is

12 where we put our guards in order to prevent the Serbian forces from

13 coming in.

14 What did you except us to do? That we did not have soldiers in

15 those buildings, that would be gaps in our defence line.

16 Q. I'm saying the same as you are; that it is true that you had your

17 firing positions in these buildings.

18 A. Yes, in the abandoned buildings, and I think that's very

19 important.

20 Q. How about the roofs of the buildings? Did you have camouflaged

21 weapons? And I'm referring to your HQ building.

22 A. What kind of roof are you referring to?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just say what kind of roof you are

24 referring to and then we'll stop. And just before the break, I'll give a

25 decision on a Prosecution motion.

Page 3268

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] .

2 Q. I'm referring to the building near the Simone Bolivar school

3 where their command post was. On the roof of that building, or inside

4 the building, were there any weapons and firing positions?

5 A. There were no weapons.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the answer to that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no weapons or firing

8 positions in that building.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll stop here for the moment, and I'll now give

10 an a decision on the Prosecution motion filed on the 20th of February for

11 the admission of written witness statements of five witnesses, including

12 Rupert Smith, pursuant to Rule 92 ter. The Defence takes no position on

13 the motion but requests that it be allocated reasonable time for

14 cross-examination. The Chamber will only address the Prosecution's

15 request for the admission of Mr. Smith's statement. We'll give a decision

16 on the other witnesses at a later date.

17 The Chamber grants the Prosecution motion, admits the witness

18 statement of Rupert Smith into evidence upon fulfilment of the conditions

19 set out in Rule 92 ter. The time originally estimated for this witness's

20 testimony by the Prosecution was five hours. The Chamber notes, however,

21 that in its motion, the Prosecution estimates that the overall length of

22 time required is two and a half hours. The Chamber notes the significance

23 of the testimony of the witness and that the Prosecution intends to refer

24 to 21 exhibits during the testimony of this witness.

25 In the result, the Chamber will allocate one hour and a half to

Page 3269

1 the Prosecution for examination-in-chief and three hours to the Defence

2 for cross-examination.

3 We'll now take the break

4 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.


7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.

8 I obviously don't want to, you know, kind of negatively to refer

9 to your decision to allocate time; but just to reiterate that, it is

10 important that this witness finishes today. And in relation to General

11 Smith, equally, we hope that we can finish him tomorrow morning. I can

12 tell that you examination-in-chief will be less than we had originally

13 planned with General Smith. It will be around an hour, hour and 15

14 minutes, and it will be around half the documents that you mentioned, so

15 around ten documents.

16 So, again, we hope that we can finish with this witness today, and

17 tomorrow's witness tomorrow.

18 Thank you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there is something that may run contrary to

20 that, because have I been informed that the Victims and Witness Protection

21 Unit has expressed some concern about the health of the witness.

22 So, Mr. Hadzic -- Witness, I'm addressing you. I understand that

23 you may be having some problems with your health. You referred to your

24 blood sugar, and I understand that it may be very high. And I am to let

25 you know that if you wish to have a break, all you do have do is request

Page 3270

1 it and I will grant it, because your health obviously comes first. Do you

2 understand that.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that my blood sugar

4 levels are high, but I will try to get through.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let us continue.

6 Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to respect

8 that a person is either capable of incapable of testifying. We were

9 warned of that before this witness started testifying, and I would have

10 excepted that Mr. Waespi would have paid attention to that as well. I, on

11 my part, will do my best to respect that; but if the witness is unable to

12 continue, of course, I have to abide by it.

13 We can pause at any moment, but some things must be discussed here

14 before you. I will try to pose my questions the way that the witness, if

15 possible, could answer with a mere yes or no. That's what I will try to

16 do, Mr. Hadzic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So as not to dwell on the topic that we discussed before the break

20 any longer, in your statement on page 11, you speak of the tunnel which

21 was dug under the airport runway. That is page 11, and I believe in the

22 English it is the same.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 11. Yes.

24 Q. In this chapter about the creation and use of the Dobrinja-Butmir

25 tunnel, we can look at the first sentence. You say that you had a cannon,

Page 3271

1 no, rather a tank up there at Zuc. Is it correct that it remained at Zuc

2 throughout the war?

3 A. It is correct that there was a tank, but it wasn't at Zuc

4 throughout.

5 Q. It changed position?

6 A. I don't know where it was, but it was located at the Jusuf Dzonlic

7 barracks. That's where it under went maintenance. It was rather damaged

8 since it was pulled down from Mojmilo hill; and when Zuc was being

9 defended, it was put up there. But due to inability to operate it

10 properly, it was hit that bay by a Maljutka rocket and rendered

11 inoperative.

12 Q. If I understood probably, you said when there was an offensive,

13 and here it says that there was defence?

14 A. All the time there was combat at Zuc. The Serb forces were at the

15 outskirts of the settlement, at the foot of Zuc hill. Basically,

16 throughout the war, the Bosnian army was trying to push the Serbian forces

17 as from far away from the settlement as possible, so as to protect the

18 settlement.

19 Q. Thank you. As regards the tunnel, if things were as stated here,

20 perhaps you can tell me the following, and you can say, yes or no. I will

21 read out the fourth paragraph:

22 "The tunnel was officially opened on 30th of July 1993, after

23 three months of digging. It had been dug through a very waterlogged area

24 which should have been impossible. It was improved as time wept by with

25 the installation of rail tracks, timber revetting, telephone

Page 3272

1 communications to either end, and eventually fuel pipes and a six-kilowatt

2 electricity capable. The tunnel was 860 metres long and had been dug by

3 hand in shifts."

4 Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "Until December 1993, we were in charge of the Dobrinja end of the

7 tunnel, and the 4th Brigade was in charge of the Butmir end. After that,

8 the 1st Corps took over control of the tunnel. I don't think the enemy

9 every found out exactly where the tunnel entrance was. At the Dobrinja

10 end, there were two entrances in adjacent garages. One was for the railed

11 section, which went under the garage, through a trench under the road, and

12 to the actual tunnel entrance in a house near the airport. The other one

13 was for people on foot."

14 Is that correct?

15 A. You are talking about the final version of the tunnel, and that

16 was so.

17 Q. First and foremost, I have in mind the times between the 10th of

18 August, 1994 until the 31st of November, 1995, because that is the time

19 material for the indictment of Dragomir Milosevic and that was the time

20 during which he held his function.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Perhaps we can discuss a military matter now. Your brigade was a

23 part of the 12th Division; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The entire 12th Division was in Sarajevo itself.

Page 3273

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The 1st Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had three

3 divisions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The 14th Division had its location in Tarcin, in the area of

6 Igman; is that correct?

7 A. Their command post was in Tarcin and their area of responsibility

8 was Igman.

9 Q. The 16th Division was in Vares, Nisici, Breza, Visocor, up to

10 Kobilica Vaya Kiskodec [phoen]; is that correct?

11 A. It should be.

12 Q. Can we say that the 1st Corps comprised those three divisions; the

13 12th, the 14th, and the 16th?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I finally received

16 a translation. It is a Defence document DD00-0121. It is a report on the

17 situation of the 1st Corps and the other corps, and the document stems

18 from the archives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This has been

19 translated, and I kindly ask for the document to be brought on screen, so

20 that I can ask the witness a few things about it. It is DD00-0121.

21 It seems we have another problem with e-court. This is my most

22 important document, and I put it in two days ago.

23 It has a translation into English. I can show it to you. It has

24 been translated.

25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, have a look. I have such documents for each month,

Page 3274

1 but this one is for the 24th of August, 1994 by the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina signed by the chief of administration, Hadim

3 Majbregolic [phoen]. It is the personnel section and the section for

4 legal affairs. Do you see the document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you see what it says. Based on the orders -- pursuant to the

7 order of the RBH OSSVK, strictly confidential, dated the 5th of February,

8 1994. "We hereby send you a report on manning levels as at 1 August

9 1994." Have I read that correctly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In your knowledge, is that the time when Dragomir Milosevic took

12 over command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

13 A. I don't know what the exact date. You are probably more away of

14 it than I.

15 Q. Thank you. It says here "manning levels of the army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina on 1 August 1994. Was this followed? The SVK with

17 headquarters support units, 1639, the 1st Corps, 62.899 fighters." Is

18 that correct?

19 A. As it says.

20 Q. The 2nd Corps over 63.000; The 3rd Corps, 35; the 4th Corps, and

21 son on and so forth. Total 227.256. Is that so?

22 A. That's what it says.

23 Q. In Sarajevo and around Sarajevo in the three divisions, there were

24 62.000 people; is that correct?

25 A. That's what the documents states.

Page 3275

1 Q. And we have the age breakdown; younger than 35, 135.000; is that

2 correct?

3 A. That's what the document says.

4 Q. Between 36 and 40, 37.000; between 41 and 45, 23.000; and over 45,

5 as many as 19.640. There were women, six and a half thousand. If it is

6 as stated in the document, it means that the 1st Corps was the most

7 numerous. Is that correct?

8 A. The 2nd Corps had more according to the data shown; 63.000.

9 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. Out of the 62.000, in Sarajevo itself, there were

10 over 40.000. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Together with the police, there were around 60.000 armed people.

13 Were you familiar with that?

14 A. They were not armed. The figure was 60.000, but we don't know

15 about the arms. I don't think 100 per cent of them were armed.

16 Q. You are trying to tell us that while Dragomir Milosevic was in

17 command not all 62.000 were armed.

18 A. I'm trying to say that my brigade was never fully armed. We

19 always had more men than arms. There was always a certain percentage, a

20 degree of people being armed in the corps; and probably in the corps, you

21 can find the documents showing the exact percentage of the people armed;

22 the statistical data about the manning levels of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 corps.

24 Q. Can you tell me at least whether at the time of the offensive in

25 June, there were still people who participated in the offensive without

Page 3276

1 any weapons?

2 A. Which offensive do you mean?

3 Q. The 15th of June, 1995.

4 A. At the Igman-Trebevica plateau? At all front lines. You have to

5 be specific line. You have to tell me which offensive. I cannot respond

6 to an open-ended question.

7 Q. I am getting there. I have five such orders, but I'm interested

8 in the offensive that began on the 5th of June and ended somewhat later

9 that year. Was there a single person participating in the offensive

10 without a weapon?

11 A. I'm asking you, again. Was that the offensive called the

12 deblocking of the city of Sarajevo.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

14 MR. WAESPI: Just an admonition that there are pauses made between

15 the questions an answers, and if the English translation could be shown,

16 the complete English translation. Because there is on the B/C/S version a

17 paragraph at the end above the signature block, and I'd like to see that

18 in English. And just for Your Honours understanding, this is the first

19 time that I see this document and certainly an English translation of

20 this.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please observe, Witness and Mr. Tapuskovic, a

22 pause between question and answer.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You will have an opportunity to

24 see the document.

25 Q. However, I had the offensive called offensive T or Tekbir in mind,

Page 3277

1 Mr. Hadzic. We had the 3rd and the 7th Corps participating in that one,

2 not only the first one, the 1st Corps, but also the 3rd and the 7th with

3 all of their troops participating in that June offensive. That is the

4 offensive I had in mind.

5 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, the offensive that you are mentioning, Tekbir, I

6 don't know that it was called that. I know it was called offensive for

7 lifting the blockade of the city of Sarajevo; and it is true that in this

8 attempt to lift the blockade from the city of Sarajevo, all corps of the

9 BH army took place. And for your information, I would like to tell that

10 this offensive failed. Our forces were defeated and the blockade

11 remained -- of Sarajevo remained in place.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So it is not disputable that the total numerical strength of the

15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was 18.000?

16 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, that's what you say. I don't know about that.

17 Q. That's what the indictment says. These men who were in

18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps managed to defend themselves from nearly 200.000

19 men who were attacking Sarajevo, and the 80.000 managed to defend

20 themselves. How do you account for that?

21 A. That's theory, and you have based your question on that.

22 According to establishment, how many men should a corps have, 18.000 or

23 what?

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this

Page 3278

1 document, DD00-0121, be tendered as a Defence exhibit, please.


3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. I don't have an objection to

4 the document being tendered. But just an observation: On page 74, line

5 3/4 of the transcript, the Defence asked the question that "Together with

6 the police there were about 60.000 armed people." And I don't see any

7 mentioning to the police in this document. I just received -- I just

8 read now the whole English line. So I didn't know what the issue was

9 about these 60.000 people having included the police as well.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my question and he gave

11 the answer that he gave. I didn't relate it to this document. I'm

12 talking about the police. I will go back to this document later, and the

13 number is DD00 --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

15 I don't find any objection to the question since it wasn't

16 specifically related to the document.

17 Proceed.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have

19 document DD00-1121 admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D106, Your Honours.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like now to show the

24 witness a number of documents relating to the functioning of a facility

25 named D-B.

Page 3279

1 Q. Is it true that this annotation was used by the 1st Corps of the

2 BH army for the tunnel?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. DB stands for Dobrinja-Butmir.

4 Q. Let us first look at an order dated 13 April 1995 relating to the

5 operation of this tunnel. That's document DD00-0751, produced by the BH

6 army, by Mr. Prevljak.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can see this document.

8 Here it is.

9 Q. First of all, was Mr. Prevljak the commander of the 12th Division

10 in Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This order has been even sent to your brigade, 155th, and it very

13 specifically stipulates by the hour how this facility should be operated.

14 If you look at page 1 first, does it say here that as a result of

15 the fact that certain changes took place in the mode of operation of DB

16 facility, and for the purpose of a more operational work, certain ties

17 were specified for the usage of this facility? And that is to do with

18 giving -- allotting times for those given permission to pass through.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I take it there is no translation for this

21 document.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is the translation, Mr. Tapuskovic?

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have been

24 waiting for the translation since the 9th of March, but I don't have it

25 at the moment.

Page 3280

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 9th of March?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no. We were told

3 that we would receive it on the 9th of March. That's what my --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was it submitted for translation?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Among the first documents. I

6 don't know the exact date, when I submitted over 100 documents. We were

7 told that it should be completed by the 9th of March, the translation, I

8 mean.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long is the document?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Two pages, one sentence, in

11 total.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Let's proceed. Identify the passages

13 that you wish to refer to, and we'll rely on the interpreters.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All I need is for the witness --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the point that you're making about the

16 tunnel? What's the point of your cross-examination?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It says here very precisely,

18 during the day, who is allowed to pass at 6.00 a.m., at 8.00 a.m., at

19 10.00 a.m., 11.00 a.m., so that's the schedule of the use of the tunnel

20 by the hour, or, in other words, this is an hourly schedule of the usage

21 of the tunnel.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But what consequences flow from that so

23 far as this trial is concerned? Because it's not in dispute that the

24 tunnel was there and it was used.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, that is exactly what I

Page 3281

1 intend to demonstrate, that certain orders were issued, giving permission

2 for units to pass through the tunnel and become engaged in operations

3 outside the Sarajevo zone. I have a number of important documents

4 showing how all this was functioning.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But to be relevant to the proceedings, you

6 have to go a little further, in my view, to show not just that they

7 passed through the tunnel and were engaged in operations outside the

8 Sarajevo zone, but that those operations in which they were engaged were

9 of a defensive character; that they were responding to attacks from the

10 other side, and that the consequence for this trial is that those charges

11 in the indictment which relate to that particular incident, the accused is

12 not responsible for them.

13 Otherwise, it's not leading anywhere, merely to show that the

14 Bosnian government forces engaged in attacks. You have to tie it to the

15 indictment.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is exactly what I intended

17 to do, and I can produce at least 100 documents to this effect; however,

18 chose only four. And this document, DD00-01170, directly relates to your

19 question. If we can have it displayed on our screens please.


21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, it says here, "The command of the 12th division, strictly

23 confidential --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please indicate where he is

25 reading from.

Page 3282

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, the interpreter is asking you, and

2 so are we, to indicate where you are reading from.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 1, the heading, the very top

4 of the document. "12th Division Command, strictly confidential, number"

5 so-and-so, "Sarajevo, 26th of June, 1995." Is that what it says here.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "Proposal for selected targets for destruction and engagement of

8 aggressor forces."

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is what is written here.

11 Q. "Pursuant to order of the Chief of Staff of the 1st Corps, strictly

12 confidential, number 01/3-151, dated 25th of June, 1995. For pursuant to

13 active combat operations in areas of responsibility of all brigades and in

14 the area of responsibility of the 12th Division with a view to engaging

15 aggressor forces around the city and stretching them and releasing the

16 burden on our forces outside of the city in the area of responsibility of

17 the 14th and 16th Division, this is our proposal per brigade in its

18 entirety."

19 Is that what it says?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm going to ask you the following: Does this mean that this

22 order relating to specific actions aimed at attracting the aggressor to be

23 carried out in the area of responsibility of the 12th and 16th Division?

24 A. I really don't see what is disputable here.

25 Q. I will tell you. Look at page 3 of this document. It refers to

Page 3283

1 your specific activities, of your 155th Brigade. That's page 3 of this

2 document. Other brigade -- all other brigades are mentioned before your

3 brigade. Look at this one here. It says, "155th Brigade." So it says

4 here: "In the area of responsibility of the 155th Mountain Brigade, six

5 targets are to be destroyed, two by each battalion, as follows: The house

6 Ledica [phoen] in Nedzarici. The group should be composed of the gunner,

7 the sniper shooter, two automatic operators, and a PAM which is

8 anti-aircraft machine-gun operator assistant gunner." Does this imply

9 that in this operation a sniper is to be involved in this operation?

10 A. That's what the order says.

11 Q. Did you have to carry out this order?

12 A. If you have the result of the compliance with this order, I can

13 answer this.

14 Q. That would take too much time. I'm asking you did you receive

15 this order.

16 A. Yes, we did, but we never carried it out.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel and witness should pause between

18 question and answer.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreter is asking, again, for a pause

20 between question and answer. But I wanted to ask the witness: Why was

21 the order never carried out?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given the situation we were in, it

23 was impossible to implement this order. The person writing it did not

24 have any real idea of the situation in the field but, rather, it was a

25 mere speculation of what we could do. We implemented a part of this order

Page 3284

1 but the rest went unattended.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you have a sniper shooter active in this operation as stated

5 here?

6 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, for the 100th time, in these areas of

7 responsibility under my command, each soldier could be a sniper shooter in

8 a way. Because in certain points at the separation line, the distance was

9 as little as five metres or sometimes up to 50 at the most.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: If I understand you then, you didn't have any

11 soldiers who were specifically designated as snipers; but in implementing

12 this order, you could identify two soldiers and they would effectively

13 carry out the functions of a sniper?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Why would the person ordering this state expressively that should

17 a sniper shoot in addition to all the other troops, unless that person was

18 counting on the fact that you had a proper sniper shooter and the piece of

19 weaponry he would need?

20 A. I was trying to figure that out. What can I tell you in answer to

21 your question, or rather, I would be able to answer your question if I

22 were the person who wrote the order, but I'm not, I wasn't.

23 Q. I will refer you to some other orders, but this one, in other

24 words, was supposed to be implemented so as to attract the attention of

25 the soldiers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; whereas, the real focus would

Page 3285

1 in the area of responsibility of the 12th and the 14th -- no, sorry, the

2 16th corps, as stated in this order?

3 A. In a way, it is correct. But an activity such this one, can they

4 distract such a number of troops so as to enable an operation on the other

5 end?

6 Q. This order contains tasks for the 101st, next to you; for the

7 102th; for the 105th; the other three brigades; and for your brigade. You

8 were to conduct four operations, each of which should be done with the

9 help of a sniper shooter; in each of the four, a sniper shooter is

10 mentioned?

11 A. I think I provided an answer to your question.

12 Q. I believe it was a full answer, too, and that's why I would kindly

13 ask for DD00-1170 to be admitted as an exhibit.


15 THE REGISTRAR: As D107, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I suggest that it be marked for identification

18 until we have a translation.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes. We'll mark it for identification

20 pending translation.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I forget, I would like to

22 tender the statement, DD00-1083, and I propose it be made a Defence

23 exhibit.

24 Your Honours, pardon me.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What document is that?

Page 3286

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the witness statement dated

2 the 24th --


4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D107 will be marked for

5 identification; and the latest document, DD00-1083, will become Exhibit

6 D108.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I also wanted to

8 warn you of the following. The statement given by the witness on the 10th

9 of July, 2006 is something we received a couple of days ago, and its

10 translation as late as yesterday. Therefore, I had no opportunity to

11 study that statement, and I don't think the witness was proofed on it as

12 well. Therefore, I won't be able to pose any questions regarding that

13 since I received it at such a late time, and I have no time to put it

14 to -- before the witness.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi.

16 MR. WAESPI: Just to clarify, the statement itself is in English,

17 and it's only I think one or one and a half pages, a few paragraphs, has

18 been disclosed, I guess, last year. But, indeed, yes, the translation was

19 disclosed on Sunday, Sunday around 3.00 or 4.00. But it's a very short

20 statement.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are 11

22 paragraphs, important ones. I will not make this an issue. I just wanted

23 to give you a illustration of the situation we were in. It is an

24 important issue.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you are not making it an issue, then so be

Page 3287

1 it. Let's move on.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. There is another order, DD00-1159, concerning the activities of

4 the 155th Mountain Brigade. I think the number is correct, and it is

5 already in front of witness. It is an order of the 13th of June, army of

6 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, command of the 12th Division. Order.

7 Since the order of the 1st Corps command, strictly confidently, number

8 01/1-195 of the 2nd of June, 1995 was not fully complied with, being the

9 preconditions of fulfilling combat tasks at Trebevica, we annul the order

10 of the 13th of June and a new order follows in light of the facts

11 mentioned.

12 "I order that the command of the 152nd and 155th Mountain Brigade

13 be sent to the Treskavica plateau, together with the necessary number of

14 troops out of their unit, so that in the field there would be 300 soldiers

15 in each. Number 2: In the manning structure, sent to carry out this

16 task, you should take care that you have as many fighters as possible to

17 fulfil the combat tasks issued."

18 Mr. Hadzic, you implemented this ordered, didn't you? It was

19 signed by Fikret Prevljak, the 12th Division commander.

20 A. I probably did..

21 Q. Did you have to go through the tunnel in order to reach the

22 positions mentioned?

23 A. It was a necessary thing to do, yes.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the large map -- no,

25 let me tender this one first, DD00-1159, and I propose it as a Defence

Page 3288

1 exhibit.

2 First of all, has this been admitted? DD00-1159 as a Defence

3 exhibit.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the court deputy enlighten us on that.

5 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours, it has not been admitted yet.


7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, again, similar situation like last time, we

8 don't have any objections to have it admitted but we need a translation.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we mark it for identification pending

10 translation.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes marked for

12 identification D109.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you show us on this large map where the Treskavica

15 positions were, where the tunnel is that you went there, and where did you

16 go?

17 It won't work. It seems that every time the witness is in front

18 of the map, he doesn't want to see.

19 A. There's nothing for me to hide. This is the runway, that's where

20 the tunnel was, and we went up there to Treskavica.

21 Q. What does the blue line depict? Are those the positions assumed

22 by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. It should be that. It should be.

24 Q. Can I ask you this: In other words, in Sarajevo, you were setting

25 up a smoke scene. You were causing incidents so as to avert attention

Page 3289

1 from your real tasks which was going through the tunnel to some other

2 areas. Is that correct?

3 A. Unfortunately, no. In Sarajevo, we were defending ourselves

4 trying to survive, and we went through the tunnel in order to liberate

5 ourselves, to break free.

6 Q. I'm asking you whether you went to any combat actions to the front

7 lines depicted in blue.

8 A. You're asking me whether the combat activities in Sarajevo were

9 merely a smoke screen so as to attract the attention of Serbian forces;

10 whereas, we would then focus our operations outside of Sarajevo. To

11 stress, yet again, in Sarajevo, we were trying to survive. There were no

12 provocations. We were trying to defend ourselves from the aggressor. We

13 went through the tunnel trying to breakthrough the siege and to try and

14 drive them away, so that we could live in Sarajevo.

15 Q. The document we saw a moment ago, in it you confirmed that those

16 activities there were setting up a smoke screen, and that the focus of

17 actions were outside on the units which left Sarajevo. That's what you

18 told me; that's what you confirmed.

19 A. I didn't put it that way. I said that in addition to our regular

20 defensive tasks, we were given some other tasks in order to lift the

21 burden from the units outside, and those units were getting ready to lift

22 the blockade of Sarajevo. Unfortunately, neither of us on the inside nor

23 the units attempting to lift the blockade succeeded, and that is in no

24 dispute.

25 Q. Yesterday, in chief, you said that you spent almost nine months at

Page 3290

1 Igman, and that your unit was more frequently outside than inside

2 Sarajevo. Is that correct?

3 A. It is not correct. That's not what I said. I said that the

4 brigade was assigned an area of responsibility the size of a battalion, in

5 order to defend the line at Igman, and such activities took place as of

6 late 1993 until the Dayton Agreements. But it didn't include the entire

7 brigade, only one of its battalions.

8 Q. And you returned to Sarajevo to rest and then you went back to

9 Igman; is that correct? And you went through the tunnel each time.

10 A. We had shifts of 15 days, but what sort of a rest is it if you go

11 back to Sarajevo, where there is constant shelling; and then after two

12 days, you are returned to the front line again? Because during your

13 absence, people were heavily burdened to try and cover up for the

14 battalion which had been to pull out to Treskavica and to the plateau

15 there. If you consider that to be a rest, well, to me, it's more of a

16 torture.

17 Q. Are you aware of an order referring to sabotage action in which

18 was counted only as provocation and smoke screen covering up actions

19 elsewhere? Did you hear about these actions being taken both in Sarajevo

20 and outside of Sarajevo for to you be enabled operate along this blue

21 lines?

22 A. My brigade was never involved in these kind of actions either

23 inside or outside of Sarajevo. And I don't remember any other brigade

24 being involved in that kind of activity.

25 Q. Let me read out to you: Order, issued by your commander Fikret

Page 3291

1 Prevljak on the 1st of July, 1995. That's document DD00-0741, and the

2 translation of this order is due on the 9th of March, as we have been

3 informed.

4 So you can see this document here: The 12th Division command,

5 the 1st of July, 1995, performance of attacks. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Then it goes on to read as follows: "The experience acquired so

8 far in conducting surprise attacks, both in the area of responsibility of

9 the 1st Corps and other corps, indicate the need and significance of

10 carrying out sabotage actions against PZT. A very successfully -- a very

11 well prepared surprise attack was carried out by units of the 2nd Corps

12 inflicting significant losses on the aggressor. 40 Chetniks were killed,

13 twice as many were wounded, and a wounded Chetnik was taken prisoner."

14 This is what your command is saying. Is that what it reads?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now I'm going to proceed with the order which reads: "Number 1,

17 unit commander, through daily assessment of the situation, and the use of

18 units in combat operations according to the" --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that it is impossible to

20 simultaneously interpret when the counsel is reading.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreter is having difficulty following

22 you and has complained again about the speed with which you are reading

23 the document.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, surely, but they

25 have it on screens. They can easily follow it and interpret it from the

Page 3292

1 screen.

2 I will try to read as slowly as possible. It seemed to me that I

3 was reading slowly but I can slow down each further.


5 MR. WAESPI: Yes, just two points to remark.

6 There needs to be a foundation with this witness obviously that

7 the document comes in. But I do have no objection if the whole purpose of

8 this exercise is to have the document in. I have to objection to the

9 document coming in. But so far I don't see any connection to this

10 witness.

11 I also note the time. So far, I don't have any redirect,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be? You have utilized

14 about - let me just ask the court deputy - the Prosecutor was two hours

15 and 8 minutes, and I believe you have utilized just about maybe two hours.

16 But I will hear from the court deputy.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have utilized 2 hours and 4 minutes. One, we

19 don't wish to reduce this to a mathematical equation, but you have had

20 substantially the same time. If you have two or three more questions, we

21 will allow you to put them.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have between 10

23 and 15 more documents. I would need at least half an hour more than the

24 Prosecution had, so I need more time. I'm going to omit the questions

25 relating to the statement that I received only yesterday. However, I do

Page 3293

1 believe that I should be allocated much more time than the Prosecution

2 had.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Hadzic, if you

5 are feeling poorly.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hadzic, I'm very sorry to say that you will

7 have to come back tomorrow morning, or if you are not well enough, then at

8 some over time. But counsel is entitled to put his questions and to put

9 his case to you. So you will, through the Prosecutor, let us know what

10 your position is, whether you -- you're well enough to attend court

11 tomorrow morning or at some other time.

12 Mr. Waespi.

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, considerable time is eaten up these documents.

14 And, as I said before --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you spent a lot of time, too, Mr. Waespi, so

16 you have to take some responsibility for this dilemma in which the witness

17 finds himself.

18 MR. WAESPI: I do. But the point I was making earlier is if the

19 Defence wants to have these documents in we do not object, but it seems

20 that the witness didn't speak to these documents as much as I thought he

21 should, if he is shown the document.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

25 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.