Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3420

1 Thursday, 8 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you are to continue your

7 cross-examination.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic [Continued]:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, I hope your health is somewhat better

13 today. Let us try and complete this task of ours as soon as possible. I

14 will try to deal only with military matters, since you were a brigade

15 commander, and that is all.

16 Shortly, I want to go back to the 65 ter document 023026, which is

17 P332, shown to you by my learned friend, Mr. Waespi, during the

18 examination-in-chief. This is a document from the army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina dated the 15th of April, 1995. It is a regular combat

20 report for that date. Mr. Waespi told you that on that day a member of

21 the French Battalion was killed. Do you remember that? I believe you

22 confirmed that for us.

23 A. Good morning. Yes, I do remember that.

24 Q. Please look at item 2, "Our forces." Activities of the 12th and

25 the 14th Division are discussed, and they were a part of the 1st Corps.

Page 3421

1 It is said that at a certain hour they began with offensive activities or

2 offensive combat activities. You, I presume, are familiar with the fact

3 that there were combat activities on that day, on the part of the 1st

4 Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

5 A. I do not see the document.

6 Q. It is the first page of the document.


8 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps if it could be scrolled up so the date

9 of the document is visible for the witness, which is important for him.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be done.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The date is on the top, 15th of

12 April; it is not at the bottom. It is in the heading.

13 Q. Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you confirmed another thing to Mr. Waespi, or rather, the

16 thing I have already stated, the killing of a French soldier. It is in

17 item 2 -- so item 1, paragraph 2.

18 A. In item 2, it says, "By sniping from Grbavica, a French soldier

19 from the UN was killed." At that time Grbavica was controlled by the

20 Serbian forces.

21 Q. That's what I'm telling you. It's a document of the army of

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Further below, in item 3, it says that in the area of

24 responsibility of the 12th and the 14th Division of your corps, at 1930

25 hours, they began with active combat operations. Do you know whether

Page 3422

1 there were any serious clashes that day between the two opposing sides?

2 A. In item 1, third paragraph, it says, "In the area of

3 responsibility of the 14th division, Serbian forces began intensive

4 operations at 7.00, using their artillery to attack the facilities at

5 Treskavica hill."

6 Q. I'm not disputing that. That is not what I was trying to ask you.

7 A. Well, our forces carried out a counter-attack because of what was

8 taking place at the time.


10 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I think the counsel referred to item 2, "Our

11 forces," that's where he was quoting from, the attack at 1930 in the

12 evening; that can be found in the second paragraph of the second heading,

13 "Nase Snage," "Our forces," and I think the witness refers to another

14 paragraph.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that reflected on the screen, Mr. Waespi?

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. WAESPI: Not yet. If we scroll down in the B/C/S version, we

18 might come to the second paragraph. Yes. That's where you see at the

19 bottom, "1930," and I think that is what counsel wants.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could we have the English synchronised with the

21 B/C/S? It's not possible?

22 MR. WAESPI: I'm sure it's possible. I think in the English we

23 have to go up. And, in fact, we have to go to the previous page in the

24 English, which is the first page. Now -- sorry, it was correct, just

25 before we switched. It's at the top of the second page, if we can go

Page 3423

1 back. Yes. "In the area of responsibility, 14th Division," and then it

2 talks about an action at 1930. I understood that's what counsel was

3 referring to.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thank you, Mr. Waespi. I see it now, yes.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you said yourself now that in the morning, at 7.00 in

7 the morning, when the operations began, you initiated your defensive

8 operations simultaneously. Is that correct? You just said that without

9 being prompted by any question of mine.

10 A. That's not what I said. I said that in the third paragraph of

11 item 1, under "Aggressor," it says, "The Serbian forces launched a morning

12 attack on our forces." It is logical if they attacked us that we had to

13 respond. We couldn't keep silent. That's what I said.

14 Q. Thank you. My next question is this: In Sarajevo itself, were

15 the brigades linked up in terms of communications, by wire, so as to be

16 able to coordinate when a certain operation would be initiated?

17 A. The brigades were not linked between -- or rather, with each

18 other, but we were all linked up with the -- or to the system of our

19 command.

20 Q. In my hands, Mr. Hadzic, I am holding an order by Rizvo Pleh, who

21 was the Chief of Staff, dated the 25th [as interpreted] of May, 1995. It

22 is, therefore, an order of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is

23 DD00-0909. We are awaiting a translation, and we have been promised to

24 receive it on the 9th of March. It is a very short document, and I wanted

25 to put it to you.

Page 3424

1 That is the document, dated the 20th of May, 1995. Is that so?

2 A. That's what the document says.

3 Q. Yes. "Bearing in mind the importance of communication links in

4 command and control and the units under combat condition, I hereby order

5 that all vital facilitates, Grdonj, Borje, Colina Kapa, Debelo Brdo,

6 Mojmilo, Azici, Stupsko Brdo, Vis, Zuc, the faculty of road transport,

7 have to have wire connection to two sides -- or from two sides."

8 Is what I have just read out correct?

9 A. In this document, Rizvo Pleh ordered that these locations had to

10 have communication links with their respective commands as well as with

11 the command of the 12th Division via brigade commands, of course.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, for your cross-examination, you

13 have, at the most, another 28, 29 minutes.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my best.

15 However, if I use a couple of more minutes than that, I hope you will bear

16 with me. I kindly ask you to bear with me because this is one of the very

17 few officers who were at that level. We may have only one other brigade

18 commander on the entire witness list. I believe it is very important for

19 us to hear those witnesses and -- but, however, I will try to meet your

20 deadline.

21 In item 2 --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see you cross-examining him on matters

23 that directly relate to the charges. I mean, merely establishing that

24 orders were issued for attacks will not, in my view at any rate, advance

25 your case. There must be attacks which relate to the charges in the

Page 3425

1 indictment.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Anything done by the army of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina -- anything and everything done by the army of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina [as interpreted] warranted only a military

5 response.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what do you mean by that?

7 The response from the -- the response from the Serb army must be a

8 response related to one of the incidents, and then you would be seeking to

9 say that that response was a defensive response; then it will become

10 relevant and could lead to your client walking through the doors a free

11 man.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I was

13 trying to do. My colleague is telling me there is a part of the

14 transcript missing. Instead of the "army of Bosnia and Herzegovina," it

15 should read the "army of the Bosnian Serbs." All they tried to do was to

16 defend themselves, and it was never their goal to open fire on Sarajevo

17 without any reason. That is the entire case of ours, and I'm trying to

18 put it forth by way of documents.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, proceed. Let's move on.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can correct the

21 transcript then, page 6 --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The transcript will have recorded the

23 correction. I don't know the -- the transcript would have recorded the

24 correction that you made. I'm not aware that there is any technical

25 possibility to correct it now, but in another way.

Page 3426

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document,

2 DD00-0909, could we please mark it for identification pending its

3 translation. It might be in as early as tomorrow.


5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

6 identification as D110.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up P194. It

8 is a map that was admitted as a Prosecution Exhibit. Could we please zoom

9 in on the area of Dobrinja.

10 The area of Dobrinja, it is to the south. A bit more, please.

11 The area of Dobrinja is to the south. Just a bit more, please. Enlarge

12 it a little bit more. If possible, zoom in on this area, where it says

13 "155," the 155th Brigade.

14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you see the position of your brigade?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's it. Thank you. Please

16 don't move the map.

17 Q. Do you see the area of the 155th Brigade, whose commander you

18 were?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where it says "155th," and we see a little flag there, was that

21 your command post? Yes or no.

22 A. I cannot tell exactly on this map.

23 Q. This marking with the triangle, wasn't that supposed to be the

24 brigade command place? You made these markings. This is your war map, or

25 rather, that of your command. Isn't that correct?

Page 3427

1 A. This is a map of the 12th Division. If this symbol is used to

2 show the place where brigade command is situated, then I accept your

3 proposition.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just repeat the question.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The battalion command -- the other little flag, or rather, the

8 triangle, is that where the battalion command was?

9 A. Conditionally speaking, yes.

10 Q. Are these mortar positions, the mortars of 82-millimetre calibre,

11 between the two flags, and it is supposed to depict a mortar platoon

12 because of the circle just below. Is that correct?

13 A. It is correct that it was a mortar platoon, but not of 82, but of

14 60-millimetre calibre.

15 Q. Does that mean that were mortars?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How many?

18 A. In my previous testimony, I said that we had two to four

19 battalion -- mortars of 60-millimetre calibre per battalion.

20 Q. Very well. The thing next to your command and the one to the

21 right, each of these locations you had between two and four mortars. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes. But they were not close to neither the brigade command nor

24 to the battalion command.

25 Q. Very well. And this lonesome marking here, isn't that a marking

Page 3428

1 for a mortar of 120-millimetre calibre. Isn't that a sign for a unit

2 which goes forward? Is that a mortar of 120-millimetre calibre?

3 A. As I said previously, we did not have any 100-millimetre [as

4 interpreted] mortars in Dobrinja, but we had 60-millimetre ones and

5 probably this is meant depict that.

6 Q. Therefore, you are telling us that this marking with the three

7 prongs is not supposed to be a 120-millimetre mortar?

8 A. I'm telling that at Dobrinja there were no 120-millimetre mortars.

9 As I said, we had 60-millimetre mortars. If you are talking about the

10 one mortar of 82-millimetre calibre we had, then this may depict its

11 position, and that's as far as I'm prepared to go.

12 Q. In the transcript, we have "28-millimetre." I don't know this

13 interpretation. He said something completely different.

14 However, witness, I categorically claim that this is a marking for

15 a 120-millimetre mortar. What have you got to say to that?

16 A. I know the situation on the ground. That's why I'm telling you

17 this. Had we had such mortars, these would be -- would have been the

18 markings. But tactically speaking, there was no need for us at Dobrinja

19 to use any mortars other than the 60-millimetre ones.

20 Q. How about the three arrows to the right at Mojmilo, are those

21 anti-aircraft pieces --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Anti-armour pieces?

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. They were used and there were a number of those. They are to the

25 right of the mortar positions.

Page 3429


2 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, it could be established first whether they

3 were in the area of responsibility of this gentleman's brigade.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he would say that.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please, Witness, it says here "155th Brigade." Yesterday, you

7 explained certain things. We can see your command post. Is this the area

8 of responsibility of the 155th Mountain Brigade?

9 A. I said earlier that I was not interested in these markings. I

10 cannot interpreter them. These three arrows that you showed were beyond

11 the area of responsibility of my brigade, but, rather, that of an adjacent

12 brigade.

13 Q. Very well. But look at the map. The Chamber itself can see, if

14 you look a little by the to the north and up, there's as many as two

15 120-millimetre mortars in the area of responsibility of the 112th Brigade.

16 I presume that you synchronised your actions through communications

17 system.

18 You knew about these mortars positioned a little bit to the north,

19 didn't you? Is that true or not?

20 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, these are the responsibility of other brigades. I

21 didn't know what these other brigades had except for men. I was only

22 interested in my area of responsibility and defence and nothing else,

23 apart from us trying to prevent the breakthrough through the defence line.

24 Q. You acted in concert with the 101st and 102nd Brigade, which later

25 merged into one brigade. Is that correct? And you were its commander?

Page 3430

1 A. That's not correct. I could never have -- coordinate any action

2 with any adjacent brigade. If anyone did that, it must have been someone

3 else, not me.

4 Q. In order not to go into all details on this map, can you only

5 confirm that here below 112th, signifies two recoilless guns, and I'm

6 referring to the 112th Mountain Brigade, up there to the north. A little

7 bit above your positions. Were those the emplacement of recoilless guns?


9 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Twice I hear the interpretation and saying the

10 transcript saying "112th Brigade." I only see the 102nd Brigade and the

11 101st Brigade. If that could be clarified, where that 112th Brigade comes

12 from. I just don't see it on the map.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 112th is to the north, on the top left.

14 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry. I have been looking at my own e-court

15 system and not at yours. I apologise for that.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, before moving on to

17 the issue of recoilless guns, I would like to ask a question of the

18 witness.

19 Mr. Witness, I followed with great care the discussion regarding

20 the types of mortars you had in your brigade. The Defence claimed that

21 you had a 120-millimetre mortars. You, however, said that you only had

22 one calibre, 82 millimetres. Page 9, lines 23 and 24 of the transcript,

23 you said that, tactically, there was no need for mortars other than

24 60-millimetre mortars. Can you explain this to me? What do you mean by

25 "a tactical need," for only 60-millimetre mortars? Why did you not need

Page 3431

1 120-millimetre mortars as the Defence claimed?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The area of responsibility of the

3 Dobrinja Brigade, and with regard to our lines and the Serbian lines and

4 the distance between the lines and how they were compact actually, if you

5 have 60-millimetre mortars with a range of around 1.000 millimetres [as

6 interpreted], we couldn't meet our defence requirements. 120-millimetre

7 mortars had range in excess of 3.000 metres; therefore, we did not have

8 any need to target any positions that were not directly putting us at

9 peril.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Should the word in the transcript "if you have 60

12 metre mortars with a range of around 1.000 millimetres, we couldn't meet

13 our Defence requirements." Is that right?

14 MR. WAESPI: No. I think the witness said, and because he said he

15 said in chief, that the range of the 60-millimetre mortar would around

16 1.000 metres, but let the witness confirm.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm not a technical person, but this

18 "couldn't" -- they are right. Shouldn't it be "could." Logically, he is

19 saying that with 60-millimetre mortars, they "could" meet their defence

20 requirements, so they didn't need anything more. So I'm questioning

21 whether "couldn't" should not be "could." I'm trying to follow the logic

22 of the explanation.

23 May I ask the witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Honour. With

25 60-millimetre mortars, we were able to meet our requirements.

Page 3432

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honours?


4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you just confirm that what is written below 112th

6 Brigade, a little bit to the left, are recoilless guns turned towards

7 Serbian positions?

8 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, I told you I know nothing about the marks. If

9 they were there, they were probably there, but I don't know that.

10 Q. Okay. I'm not going to ask you to read this map any further.

11 Your commander will be here, and we shall clarify that with him.

12 We have here now another document, DD00-1259, and we have a

13 translation of that document as well. Can we please have this displayed

14 on our monitors. It's been translated.

15 That's a document dated the 12th of August, 1994. It's been

16 written by Van Baal, an UNPROFOR officer, addressed to Jovan Divjak, a

17 deputy commander of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it reads

18 as follows:

19 "Dear General, today, the 12th August at 0515, a mortar shell was

20 shot from the trig point 847-554 to the Serb-held parts of Dobrinje. Once

21 more I want to emphasise that such an act is a flagrant breach of the

22 agreement relating to the total exclusion, signed in February 1994, which

23 should prevent the city of Sarajevo from being shelled."

24 This refers to a shell fired -- fired at Dobrinja. Is it true

25 that you held a section of Dobrinja?

Page 3433

1 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, my unit didn't do that. Interestingly, I would

2 like it make a comment, if you allow me, on this document. If this

3 officer wrote this letter, why did he address it to General Divjak? Why

4 didn't he address it to the 1st Corps command or the 12th Division

5 command, but rather he chose to write this letter General Jovan Divjak.

6 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.


8 MR. WAESPI: I think it is also important to understand this

9 document, to figure out what that grid refers to, what location. That's

10 where the mortar shell came from, according to Mr. Van Baal. And -- I'm

11 not going to testify, of course, but it need to be made sure where it

12 comes from, whether inside the area of responsibility of this brigade

13 commander or outside the area of responsibility of the brigade commander.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Please, you told us that Dobrinja was encircled. Isn't it true

17 that Dobrinja was divided into two parts; one was held by the BH army as

18 you indicated on the map, and the other one was held by the VRS. No one

19 was encircled there, but there was rather a separation line. Is that

20 true?

21 A. The Serbian forces occupied parts of Dobrinje 4 and Dobrinja 1, as

22 well as part of the airport settlement, and those were the separation

23 lines between one part of Dobrinja and the occupied part of Dobrinja.

24 Mr. Tapuskovic, I'm talking about occupied the parts from which people

25 were expelled. Around 400 people were taken to Kula from the to airport

Page 3434

1 settlement.

2 No one was taken away from Dobrinja 4, but they were rather pushed

3 to the inner part of Dobrinja. And some 200 people were taken away from

4 Dobrinja 1, while the rest were pushed further into the Dobrinja

5 neighbourhood.

6 Q. I have no time to go back to your statement; but in 1992, the

7 first people, except for some few exceptions, were the Serbs. They

8 abandoned their homes and all their belongs back in 1999 [as interpreted],

9 precisely because of the then --

10 INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1992.

11 Q. -- precisely because of the then prevailing situation.

12 A. No one expelled the Serbs from Dobrinja, Mr. Tapuskovic. They

13 followed the instructions given by politicians. They took their things

14 and left Dobrinja, but not all of them. Some of them remained in

15 Dobrinja, and you can check the data about the number of Serbs who

16 remained there. No one was forced to go, and that was the time when there

17 was no conflict yet.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's stick to the matter at hand. Counsel, you

19 bring forward the document on the screen, and the question is whether the

20 grid position, GR 847-554, is within or without the area of responsibility

21 of the witness. And since you bring forward this document, I suggest that

22 it is on you to show to the Chamber that it is indeed within his area of

23 responsibility, and I kindly ask you to do that.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, it doesn't say

25 anywhere in this letter that this trig point is in the area of

Page 3435

1 responsibility of the Serbian army. You are asking me to do something

2 which is impossible. In any case, it is clear that this position, with

3 this markings, was in the territory of the BH army.

4 So in that respect, I asked the witness if we have this claim in

5 this letter, and if Dobrinja was closest to the other part of Dobrinja,

6 that is Dobrinja 4, I presume that this shot was fired from the Dobrinja

7 side held by the BH army. And I think that the witness is in the position

8 to answer this. He can tell us where this location exactly was.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Shall we hear from the witness or from you,

10 Mr. Waespi.

11 MR. WAESPI: The witness can answer. I --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Hadzic, what's the answer.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said that it wasn't fired

14 from the area of responsibility of our brigade. Even if there had been a

15 mortar, it is technically impossible to fire it, because between the

16 ultimate point of Dobrinja and this point is -- the distance is about

17 4.000 metres [as interpreted]. So there was no shell fired by the

18 Dobrinja Brigade.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the question more precisely is whether, what

20 is it, GR 847-554 is within your area of responsibility. Are you in a

21 position to answer that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in the area of responsibility of

23 my unit.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can correct

Page 3436

1 the transcript, it says "4.000 metres;" whereas, the witness says "1.000

2 metres." It's been recorded "4.000 metres," but the witness says "1.000

3 metres."

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that correct, Witness? What did you say?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that the

6 ultimate point of Dobrinja under our control within -- with respect to

7 Dobrinja 4, the distance is about 1.000 metres.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, can you at least confirm this second part which reads as

10 follows: "It is very disappointing to discover is that especially the BH

11 in the last few days is trying to exploit the situation after the air

12 attack on the 5th of August." Is at least this true? Did you try to

13 abuse and exploit these air attacks on the 5th of August, and to advance

14 or reinforce your positions vis-a-vis the positions of the VRS.

15 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, when the air strikes started around the area of

16 responsibility of Dobrinja, we rejoiced. We thought and believed that

17 this was the end of the war. Even people rushed out into the street from

18 their flats -- flags [as interpreted]. They were applauding and hailing

19 the aircraft carrying out the air-strikes against the Serbian forces in

20 Dobrinja and Lukavica.

21 Q. I'm talking about the 5th of August, 1994. I'm not talking about

22 the end of the war, but, rather, the 5th of August, 1994.

23 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, if the Serbian forces would attack us, we would

24 defend us, which is a classic example of how our area of responsibility

25 operated. Throughout the war, except for some certain changes, we firmly

Page 3437

1 held to our lines and defended our area of responsibility. If the Serbian

2 forces tried to penetrate our area, we would try to repel them and push

3 them back, and we upheld all the cease-fires 100 per cent because they

4 were in our interest.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have this

7 document, DD00-1259, be tendered as a Defence exhibit, since we have both

8 versions, English and the B/C/S one.


10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D111, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, the last paragraph of the letter that you

12 have shown on the screen seems to suggest that all the mortars held by the

13 BiH army inside Sarajevo should have been rendered -- or should have been

14 surrendered to the French bat or to the weapon collection point. And

15 this, of course, raises the question whether the BiH army held these

16 mortars, two to four mortars per battalion, in violation of the obligation

17 to surrender all weapons -- all heavy weapons to the weapon collection

18 points.

19 Could you please clarify this with the witness?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going ask the witness the

21 following.

22 Q. This is a working map of the 1st Corps from March 1995. Was is

23 entered in these maps signifies active weapons. If that had not been the

24 case, then we would have had exactly the situation described by His Honour

25 Judge Harhoff at the collection points for heavy weapons. Do you deny

Page 3438

1 that on the 3rd of March, a year after the exclusion zone was introduced,

2 these weapons were deployed?

3 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, whatever our command signed with international

4 forces was honoured, and we strictly abided by that.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Tell me, Witness, I'm putting my question directly

6 to you then. Does this mean that the two to four 60-millimetre mortars

7 that you have told us were in the possession of each of your battalions,

8 that they fell under the minimum limits of the international agreement so

9 that you could told them lawfully. Is that what you are saying? Do you

10 understand my question?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully understand your question and

12 precisely so. We abided by whatever was prohibited, and we didn't have

13 any of those things in our possessions. Whatever the command in charge of

14 the 1st Corps signed with international forces, we observed to the letter.

15 Whatever, however, was allowed, we kept.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, if

17 I -- when I come to the final stage of my cross-examination, I have,

18 however, to raise an objection that was passed on to me by the accused,

19 and I would like to say and ask the witness to explain this.

20 This is not a trig point. These were coordinates, and they were

21 provided by the UN and only they knew what they signified. Therefore, I

22 could not ask the witness anything about it because these coordinates had

23 been provided by the UN.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I was alarmed to hear you say

25 when you come to the final stage of your cross-examination. You are in

Page 3439

1 the final stage of your cross-examination, and you must bring it to an end

2 within two minutes.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given the

4 importance of this witness, this directly infringes the right to a fair

5 trial, and I would like you to allow me to show to the witness at least

6 another two documents; but, anyway it is up to you to decide, and the

7 direction of this is in your hands.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can show the witness the other two documents.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There's another letter sent by

10 Van Baal; there's no translation of that letter. And its number is

11 DD00-1257.

12 Q. Yet again, on the 13th of August, 1994, Mr. Van Baal writes to

13 General Divjak. So I'm going to read it: "Addressed to the

14 Brigadier-General Jovan Divjak. "General, attached here with, you will

15 find a report by the Sajo airport commander, concerning the shooting on

16 the 11th of August, which was -- directly caused the closure of the

17 airport and delay of flights.

18 "Although you reassured this command that the airport will be

19 freely and used without any hindrance, it seems that the three shots fired

20 from the territory held by the BH army resulted in the air lift, otherwise

21 used to provide for people, to close. Basically, that was an irrational

22 act.

23 "It is obvious that only by taking a very firm and resolute

24 attitude towards such elements can such incidents be prevented in the

25 future. The solutions can be jointly reached between the BH army and

Page 3440

1 UNPROFOR, especially in the period when the airport is in use."

2 My question is as follows: If these bullets or these three shots

3 were fired from ordinary weapons, that could only have come from the

4 positions, because this was not a rocket or anything else, these were

5 rifle bullets, and Dobrinja was under your control. Were those three

6 bullets fired from the area under your direct command?

7 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, the airport and the area around it was partly

8 under the respective responsibility of three Bosnian brigades, so any of

9 them could have fired those shots. But the question is why should they be

10 shooting at the aircraft bringing in food and good things. Why should we

11 hinder or hamper anything that was to our benefit? If anybody did shoot,

12 it could not have been from the area of the 155th Brigade or any other

13 brigade.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Can we have this document, DD00-1257, be marked

16 for identification? I believe that the Prosecution has it, and I don't

17 have a translation because the original is in English. But can we have it

18 marked for identification, please.


20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked for

21 identification as D112.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And now the last document, even though I have about a dozen more.

24 It's another letter written by Mr. Van Baal to General Divjak, and we have

25 a translation of this document into B/C/S.

Page 3441

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that I did

2 not put it on the list. But may I be permitted to use it anyhow since it

3 has been translated, and I will use this to conclude my cross-examination.


5 Mr. Waespi.

6 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The English version doesn't correspond to

7 the -- to the B/C/S version. It's a different document.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It doesn't seem to be the same.

9 MR. WAESPI: In fact, the English translation on the left appears

10 to be the English translation of the first document we had discussed at

11 length, which had the grid reference.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no

13 translation for the document of the 13th; however, I do have the

14 translation of the 15th document. That one was previously marked for

15 identification, and the other one dates the 15th and I have its

16 translation. By your leave, I just wanted to ask for your permission to

17 tender that; and pursuant to your decision, I would conclude with my

18 cross-examination. Perhaps, the witness could read it. I have the

19 translation.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness is reading it.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, he can read it out loud.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The 15th of August, 1994."

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is not French interpretation. Are we going

24 to have French interpretation?

25 THE INTERPRETER: There is a technical problem, Mr. President.

Page 3442

1 We're going to solve it.

2 Would counsel mind repeating the question.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please repeat the question.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I actually asked the witness to

5 read out the document. I have it in English. Perhaps the interpreters

6 could be provided with a copy of that, or it can be put on the ELMO as

7 well.

8 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, since preference is given to the

9 interpreters, which is fine, for the only English translation, which

10 document are we now talking about? The one I see on the screen has the

11 13th of August, 1994. Is that the document that we're talking about, or

12 is it a different one?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic --

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Waespi, it has already been

15 marked for identification that. That was not what I was talking about.

16 It is another document dated two days after that, the 15th.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that the document which the witness is now

18 reading?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, maybe that document should then be placed

21 on the ELMO.

22 Have you read it, Witness?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let it be placed on the ELMO so we can hear an

25 interpretation of it, if it is necessary.

Page 3443

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a translation already.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the question that you wish to put to the

3 witness about this?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. That fire was opened at an aeroplane immediately or shortly

6 afterwards. And, again, the general was warning the army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina not to open fire at aeroplanes, but this one testifies

8 that they indeed continued.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What paragraph indicates this? I would just ask

10 the interpreter to interpret it.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can read it out as well. I

12 have it on the ELMO now.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We have provided the English

15 translation.

16 "On the 15th of August, Brigadier-General Jovan Divjak. Dear

17 General, today on the 15th of August, 1994, at approximately 1.100 hours,

18 an UN aircraft was hit by a single small arms round. Not 24 hours has

19 passed since your representative publicly condemned the practice of

20 shooting at aircraft during yesterday's Sarajevo airport meeting.

21 "Once again irresponsible elements have hit one of our aircraft.

22 It is obvious to me that only through close cooperation between

23 UNPROFOR/air base command and your army and police forces that we can

24 succeed in stopping these attacks."

25 My question is this: Was that bullet fired from your area of

Page 3444

1 responsibility, as it was the only area from which one could open fire at

2 the planes landing at the airport as stated here by Mr. Van Baal?


4 MR. WAESPI: I'm sure that is a misstatement of the situation.

5 The airport has two sides; one is Dobrinja, the other one is Butmir.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm convinced that

7 UNPROFOR did its job conscientiously, and they had good foundation for

8 such categorically claims. There is no space for any doubt as to where

9 the fire came from, from which side. They would be familiar with the

10 consequences of that, so perhaps the witness could answer.

11 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I wasn't talking about which side,

12 which forces. I was talking in a geographical sense.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is a

15 translation in existence.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is the translation? Is there an English

17 translation?

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: May we have the English translation on the ELMO?

20 Apparently, it has been given to the interpreters.

21 Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The only point I was making was that I didn't

23 dispute that it says here it was the ABiH or come from ABiH. My only

24 objection was to counsel putting to the witness that it must have come

25 from his side, which is Dobrinja, rather than from the Butmir side, where

Page 3445

1 other ABiH air forces were stationed. That was my objection.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have the letter on the ELMO, the English

3 translation.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, as I read this letter, it does not

5 say that the shots came from the areas held by the BiH army. At best, the

6 letter suggests that the shots could have come from the BiH army, but

7 there's obviously a possibility that it could also have come from the

8 other side.

9 I see General Van Baal's letter as a warning basically to both

10 sides that they should control so-called irresponsible elements from --

11 and prevent them from shooting at incoming or outgoing aircraft.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please be handed the

13 document.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, are you saying that in the

15 version of document that you have, there's an indication that the shooting

16 came from the BiH army? Because there is no such indication in the

17 English translation.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let us be clear.

19 They were very clear in their terms used in the previous letter when the

20 three shots were fired. This is yet another warning that they should stop

21 doing what they had done 24 hours before that. In the previous document,

22 it is clearly stated who fired. This one is merely a protest. The other

23 side was never forwarded such a letter. They are yet again protesting

24 with the army.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the question and --

Page 3446

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And putting these two letters

2 together.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the question that you wish to put to

4 the witness.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My question is this: Both these

6 events, that is rifle or light machine-gun fire, that that fire was fired

7 from Mr. Hadzic's area of responsibility, and I believe the witness can

8 answer.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, what do you say to that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will use this pointer

11 to try and show you the area of responsibility around the air strip.

12 Let say this is the air strip. One third was in the Serbian

13 hands. This part, from the Serbian forces to the last third, was my area

14 of responsibility and, then, again we have the Serbian forces. And the

15 same goes for the other side of the air strip; Serbian forces, army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then Serbian forces, and both ends of the airport

17 were in the Serbian hands.

18 Had we opened fire at that time, the French Battalion, with which

19 we had excellent cooperation, would have come to warn us. Never have we

20 been warned during that period that someone opened fire from our area of

21 responsibility at aircraft.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We thank you. So what is your answer to the

23 question that was put?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not open fire at that

25 aircraft. It could have been anyone.

Page 3447

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 Any re-examination?

3 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document of the

5 15th of August, I would like to tender it as a Defence exhibit.


7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit D113, Your

8 Honours.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hadzic, that now concludes your testimony.

10 We thank you for giving it. You may now leave.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 MR. WAESPI: If I may be excused, Mr. President.

14 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty, you're going to marshall the

16 evidence from the next witness.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: I am, Your Honour, and the Prosecution's next

18 witness will be Mr. Per Anton Brennskag.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I

21 would ask to be excused.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, certainly.

23 Let the witness make the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 3448


2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit and you may begin, Mr. Docherty.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Examination by Mr. Docherty:

5 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state your name, and by way

6 of introduction tell us what you do for a living.

7 A. My name is Per Brennskag. I couldn't hear the other part.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you do for a living.

9 THE WITNESS: Please say again.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you do for a living. What is your

11 employment.

12 THE WITNESS: Today, I'm retired from my home municipality as

13 chief of administration.


15 Q. And before you were chief of administration of your municipality,

16 what did you do?

17 A. I was in the Norwegian army from 1970 to early 2002.

18 Q. What rank did you hold when you retired from the Norwegian army?

19 A. My rank was lieutenant-colonel?

20 Q. Did your career with the Norwegian army also include service with

21 the United Nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Between what dates, please? When did you begin and when did you

24 end?

25 A. I arrived Zagreb early, early 1995, early March.

Page 3449

1 Q. I'm sorry, and when -- when did you leave?

2 A. I left in 1996. I left Sarajevo mid-September 1995.

3 Q. And what was it that you were doing while you were in Sarajevo?

4 What were you doing with the United Nations?

5 A. I was an armed military observer.

6 Q. Mr. Brennskag, have you on two occasions given statements to

7 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

8 A. Yes. Once as far as I remember, 1996; and the last time in

9 October last year, 2006.

10 Q. And since coming to The Hague to give testimony a few days ago,

11 have you had an opportunity to read both of those statements over?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. In what language did you read them?

14 A. I wrote them in English.

15 Q. And when you read them, did you find those reports to be accurate

16 summaries of what you had said to the investigators?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would we get the

19 answers that are in those reports?

20 A. Yes, you would.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, at this time, I move the admission

22 into evidence of 65 ter number 2858, which is the witness' ICTY statement

23 of October 2006, and I also move the admission of 65 ter number 2859,

24 which is the witness's statement from May of 1996.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit both.

Page 3450

1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 2858, the statement of October 2006,

2 will be admitted as Exhibit P345. 65 ter number 2859, the statement of

3 May 1996, will be Exhibit P346.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: And may I ask the court officer to bring up the

5 Sarajevo map that has been used many times in these proceedings, 65 ter

6 number 2829.

7 Q. Mr. Brennskag, while we're waiting for the map to appear, from

8 your service in Bosnia, are you familiar with the term "modified air

9 bomb?"

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. What does that term mean to you, or what sort of device does that

12 term describe to you?

13 A. It's normally a ballistic missile put on rockets device, so it

14 will not be ballistic anymore. It could be an air bomb, or up to my

15 knowledge, it also could be an artillery device.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: And I apologise, Mr. Court Officer, I asked for the

17 map under the wrong 65 ter number. It should have been 2872. I

18 apologise.

19 Q. Mr. Brennskag, the modified air bombs that you have been

20 describing, were you ever in a position to see one launched or to see --

21 excuse me, to see one in flight?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. And when you see such a thing in flight, how can you tell that it

24 is a modified air bomb and not something else? How can you look at and

25 say, Oh, there goes a modified air bomb?

Page 3451

1 A. It has a smoke tail from the rocket device.

2 Q. And is there anything else that is distinctive about it?

3 A. I'm not able to answer that question.

4 Q. That's fine. Now, on the monitor in front of you is a map, and

5 I'm going to be asking you some questions about a specific day, the 28th

6 of June of 1995. Were you on duty as a United Nations Military Observer

7 on the 28th of June, 1995?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. On the map, can you tell us whereabouts you were on June the 28th

10 of 1995?

11 A. Yes. I was on the observation post of the Pofalici team. It was

12 located in the area of Vitkovac.

13 Q. And do you see on the map the area of the observation post from

14 the Pofalici team?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Could I ask the usher to assist the witness, and

17 I'll ask you to mark the observation post with the letters OP for the

18 English "Observation Post."

19 Q. Put an X at the spot and label it OP, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. While you were on doubt at the OP that day, did you see anything

22 unusual?

23 A. I'm not sure of the question.

24 Q. All right. You've testified a few minutes ago that you have seen

25 modified air bombs in flight. Did you have occasion to see a modified air

Page 3452

1 bomb at any time on 28th of June, 1995?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And where were you when you saw this modified air

4 bomb?

5 A. I was on the OP marked on the map on Vitkovac.

6 Q. Describe, please, what you saw when you saw this modified air

7 bomb.

8 A. I saw it was launched and I saw the flight, and I also pretty sure

9 to see where it was going to have the impact.

10 Q. All right. Let's take those up in turn. First of all, where it

11 was launched from. Can you indicate on the map in front of you the area

12 from which you saw this modified air bomb being launched?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you take the pen from the usher and mark the area of launch,

15 please.

16 A. This would be a wide area from Ilidza, and I mark it like this.

17 Q. All right. During the time that you were in Sarajevo, did you

18 become familiar with which of the warring factions controlled what

19 territories?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you know at the time that you were in Sarajevo who

22 controlled the territory that you have just drawn a circle around in

23 Ilidza?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who did?

Page 3453

1 A. It was BSA.

2 Q. And the initials "BSA" stand for what, sir?

3 A. Bosnian Serb army.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 We'll take the break now.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

9 Mr. Docherty.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, Your Honour. I think.

11 Q. Mr. Brennskag, just before the break, you had been making some

12 markings on the map, and I just direct your attention to the circle in the

13 lower right, because on the break I was noticing - lower left, excuse me -

14 that there was a river running through that circle. Were you able to tell

15 from which side of that river the air bomb was launched on the 28th of

16 June, or can you not be more precise than the circle?

17 A. Taken in consideration that it was 12 years ago and I don't have

18 the exact report from that time, I don't want to be more accurate.

19 Q. That's fair enough, thank you.

20 Describe the flight of this air bomb, please.

21 A. I'm not sure what you want me to do.

22 Q. I'm just asking to you tell us in words, no need to mark on the

23 map and I apologise for not being clear, just tell us in words what you

24 saw when this air bomb flew through the air. What did its flight look

25 like?

Page 3454

1 A. Well, in the first time of the flight when the rocket engine was

2 on, it's like a striped mark on the air; and afterwards when the motor is

3 off or burned out, it's not possible to see, if you are not lucky to see,

4 the shell until it's -- having its impact.

5 Q. Now, you said in your last answer that --

6 A. Sorry, I can't hear.

7 Q. Sorry. I hadn't turned my microphone on; I have now.

8 You said in your last answer that it was a straight mark on the

9 sky. You have seen -- or have you seen artillery shells in flight during

10 your military career?

11 A. I have seen mortar shells during exercise when they are -- have a

12 very high altitude, and you have everything under control. You can see a

13 black mark on the sky going up and going down.

14 Q. Is there anything different about -- between the flight of a

15 mortar shell and the flight of a modified air bomb?

16 A. Yes. If you are not lucky to look directly at where the mortar or

17 the artillery is launched, you can't see anything. If you are lucky to

18 look directly look at it, you can see the smoke from -- from the weapon,

19 but just short.

20 Q. I'm sorry. I was trying to ask was is there something different

21 between a modified air bomb, on the one hand, and an artillery shell or a

22 mortar shell, on the other hand, about the kind of path that they make

23 when they are travelling through the sky. Do you understand that

24 question, sir?

25 A. I understand. Mortar or an artillery shell have a ballistic way.

Page 3455

1 The rocket has not.

2 Q. When you say "a ballistic way," is it possible for you to describe

3 a bit more fully what you mean by "ballistic way"?

4 A. A mortar or an artillery shell don't have any other way of putting

5 themselves through the air than from the Howitzer or from the motor. But

6 the rocket gives - what should I say in English? - gives it power through

7 the air after leaving the Howitzer or the mortar.

8 Q. How many times during your service in Sarajevo, did you see

9 modified air bomb launches, approximately? I know it's been some years.

10 A. Approximately, four or five times.

11 Q. And were you able to, by what you saw, know that you were looking

12 at a modified air bomb launch rather than artillery or mortar or something

13 else?

14 A. After the first time, you are very certain what you are -- the

15 difference between mortars, artillery, and modified air bomb.

16 Q. Let's go back to the 28th of June then. After you saw this

17 launch, did you observe an impact of a modified air bomb?

18 A. I saw an impact, yes, and it must be the modified air bomb.

19 Q. Where did you see that impact?

20 A. The impact was in the so-called TV building in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the position of the TV building; and if so,

22 could you mark that on the map with an X and labelling it "TV?"

23 A. Yes. I know where the TV building is in Sarajevo, and I mark it

24 on the map.

25 Q. And if you could just label that "TV," please.

Page 3456

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. When you said a minute or two ago, "it must have been the air bomb

3 that impacted the TV building," what are your reasons for making that

4 conclusion?

5 A. The conclusion comes to me because of what I saw was launched and

6 the impact just after I couldn't see the rocket smoke anymore.

7 Q. All right. Now, during your service in Sarajevo, did you ever

8 meet a Danish colleague, an UNMO named Thomas Hansen.

9 A. I can't remember the name, but for sure I could have met him.

10 Q. Okay. But no recollection as you sit here today.

11 A. No.

12 Q. To your knowledge, was that officer, Mr. Hansen, ever at the

13 Pofalici OP, where you've testified you were on duty on the 28th of June?

14 A. You mean the Vitkovac OP?

15 Q. Yes, I do.

16 A. As far as I know, I have never seen Hansen on the Vitkovac, but

17 for sure he could have been there when I was not there.

18 Q. When you were not there, of course.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not clear to me what the witness is saying.

20 Do you know Mr. Hansen.

21 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know Mr. Hansen. I could have met him,

22 but I can't remember.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: That's the point I'm trying to elicit,

24 Mr. President. I am going somewhere with this.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay, let's see.

Page 3457

1 MR. DOCHERTY: If I could have 65 ter number 00536, please. Oh,

2 I'm sorry.

3 Yes, could I tender the map as marked, please.


5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P347, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 But I have a problem with the list of documents that was

9 supposed -- that will be used with this witness. I only have three

10 documents on the list and the map. I didn't raise any objection because I

11 have the same map on my own list, but I really do not know what documents

12 we're talking about. I don't think they were supposed to be used today by

13 the Prosecution.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: May I respond, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: The document I have just called for is Captain

17 Hansen's special report of the 29th of June, and it is on the Defence list

18 which was released to me at the beginning of the witness's direct

19 examination. It is not on the Prosecution's list of exhibits; however, it

20 is it on the Defence list of exists. It is UNMO HQ Sector Sarajevo

21 special report on impact on TV building, I believe, it is cell number 9.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let's proceed.


24 Q. Mr. Brennskag, do you see an United Nations report in English on

25 the left-hand side of the monitor in front of you?

Page 3458

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And do you see that this is prepared by a Captain T. Hansen?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: And if I might ask the court officer to go to the

5 second page of this document, in both English and B/C/S.

6 Q. And, Mr. Brennskag, I'm going to direct your attention to the

7 second-to-the last paragraph in Mr. Hansen's report. I will read it out

8 in English. "The UNMO team that normally man OP4 that looks into the area

9 was taking cover in the shelter because of shelling at the time of the

10 incident, so no information is available from the OP."

11 Have I read that accurately?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The reference there is to "OP4," and in your testimony you have

14 spoken about the Pofalici or the Vitkovac OP. What is the relationship

15 between OP4 and the Vitkovac OP that you have been -- I'm sorry, I see

16 that is confusing you.

17 The Vitkovac OP, did it have a number?

18 A. Yes. It had OP4 and was the OP for the Pofalici team.

19 Q. All right. Going back to Captain Hansen's report, were you in

20 fact taking shelter at the time that this air bomb was launched, as it

21 says in this report?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was there a shelter at OP4?

24 A. It was normally a family house with a basement for potatoes and

25 vegetables, and this is what they called the shelter.

Page 3459

1 Q. Had you ever taken shelter during your time at OP4?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever tell Captain Hansen that you were taking shelter at

4 the time of this air bomb incident regarding the TV tower?

5 A. Not as I remember.

6 Q. And, lastly, this paragraph that we've been concentrating on for

7 the past few minutes, is it in your opinion correct or incorrect?

8 A. I would not speculate in the report. For me, it's looks some

9 incorrect, yes.

10 Q. Was there anyone else on duty with you at OP4 that day when you

11 made these observations?

12 A. Yes. We were always two observers on the OP.

13 Q. All right. Had the other observer taken shelter?

14 A. No, as far as I remember.

15 Q. And who was the other observer?

16 A. I'm not able to remember it.

17 Q. And, lastly, if we could go back to the map that we had on the

18 screen, I understand it will be --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can he say how many soldiers were in OP4.


21 Q. Mr. Brennskag, can you tell us how many UNMOs were in OP4.

22 A. Two.

23 Q. Now, do you mean by that two at any given time were on duty, or

24 maybe two out of six or two out of eight, or what have you, were on duty.

25 How big was the team from which those two came?

Page 3460

1 A. The teams normally was eight or nine observers. On the OP, there

2 were only two at each time.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And did he say who those two were whether he knew

4 those two.

5 MR. DOCHERTY: He was one, and he cannot recall the name of his

6 colleague, given that it has been ten years. But there was a second with

7 him that day, and I believe his testimony was neither one of them had

8 taken shelter.

9 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it possible that some other members of the

11 UNMO team of eight might have taken shelter there without your knowing?


13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why would you say that?

14 THE WITNESS: Because the Pofalici team had their accommodation

15 fairly long away from the OP. So the OP just consisted of the house and

16 always two UNMOs when we were able to be at the OP.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: OP stands for what?

18 THE WITNESS: Observation post.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Observation post, and this house was the

20 observation post?

21 THE WITNESS: The house was the observation post; the upper floor

22 of the house was the observation post.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: And is that where you were at the time of the --

24 the flight of this air bomb?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 3461

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Excuse me one moment, Mr. President.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. DOCHERTY: I just wonder if it's possible to have the marked

5 map put back up.

6 Okay. Thank you.

7 Q. Mr. Brennskag, in front of you is the map that you marked a little

8 bit earlier - it's now in evidence - did you look at Captain Hansen's

9 report before coming to court today?

10 A. Yes. I was shown the report for two days ago.

11 Q. And in that report there is a map grid reference; do you recall

12 that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. The map that is on the screen does not have the numbers that are

15 necessary to plot a map grid reference. Am I correct in that, sir?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. All right. Were you able to work out on this map that is on the

18 monitor where a particular map reference point would be?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you describe to Their Honours how you went about figuring

21 out where a map reference point would be, given that this map does not

22 have the necessary numbers.

23 A. Yes. I used the map with a grid reference and found where the --

24 the spot were and compared it to this map shown on the screen, and it's

25 fairly no problems to know where it is on this grid.

Page 3462

1 Q. I'm going to -- since I don't want to take this map off the

2 screen, I'm going to read to you a portion of Captain Hansen' report.

3 This is one that contains the map grid reference.

4 "Heard and saw an outgoing projectile across the parking place and

5 road from grid BP 866-587." That -- you were able to plot that grid on

6 the map on the monitor?

7 A. Yes, fairly accurately.

8 Q. Could you please mark that spot with an X; and then I'll ask you

9 to label that X, "TH" for Thomas Hansen.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Do you have any opinion as to the feasibility of launching a

12 modified air bomb from the spot labeled "TH" towards the TV tower or at

13 the TV tower?

14 A. I have no education how they launched the improvised air bombs.

15 But as far as I can recall, this would be a big problem.

16 Q. Why would it be a big problem, Mr. Brennskag?

17 A. It's the distances that directly hit, directly sight, a very short

18 distance.

19 Q. And why is it -- I'm sorry. I'm not entirely clear. Why is it a

20 big problem to fire a modified air bomb at a target that is a relatively

21 short distance away?

22 A. As I said, I have no education about how to fire it. But for me,

23 I think it would be a big problem?

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. Usher. Thank you. We're finished with marking

25 the map.

Page 3463

1 Your Honour, I'll tender the second version of the marked map as

2 well.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It says that he thinks it would be a big problem.

4 Why do you think it would be a big problem?

5 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer to that, sir.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can't answer it. Because, as you say, you --

7 you have, as you said in your own words, no education about how who fire

8 it. Are you able to tell us what that area is that you marked "TH"? What

9 is the locality?

10 THE WITNESS: It's near the railroad and it's a main road on the

11 knot of the railroad, and there are some factory buildings or railroad

12 buildings very close to it.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the name of the -- the district or the

14 village or the town?

15 THE WITNESS: I can't -- I can't tell you, sir. On the map, it's

16 Alipasin Most.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us the distance between the point

19 marked "TH" and the TV tower that was hit?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Approximately, about 500 metres or slightly a

21 little bit more.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: May I tender the map, Your Honour.


24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P348, Your Honours.

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. Usher, we're through with marking. Thank you.

Page 3464

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor.

3 MR. DOCHERTY: I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Since you are still examining in chief, I'm

5 putting my question through you, which I think is the correct thing to do,

6 and I want you to put the question to the witness so that the Chamber can

7 understand what it is the witness saw. What he has told us was that he

8 saw a modified air bomb being launched from the circle in the Ilidza area,

9 and then, as I understood it, in the straight line to the TV building.

10 And I would like you to ask the witness to confirm that this is what he

11 saw.


13 Q. A couple of questions, Mr. Brennskag. Just would you tell the

14 Chamber again in as much as detail as possible, please, what you saw of

15 this modified air bomb -- what you observed - I don't want to limit it to

16 "saw," because you may have heard things or what have you - what you

17 observed of this modified air bomb from launch to impact.

18 A. I saw a modified air bomb launched from the Ilidza area towards

19 PTT building, TV building, and I saw the rocket smoke and just afterwards

20 an impact in the TV building.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And was it a straight line from the launching

22 point to the impact point?


24 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the implication of your answer is that the

25 modified air bomb that you saw could not have passed over the point

Page 3465

1 identified by Captain Hansen; is that correct?

2 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.


4 Q. Now, I just want it turn back for a moment or two to this

5 question. When we asked why this would be a big problem, you said

6 partly --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. Judge Mindua.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, sorry, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 I just want to make sure of one thing. Did the witness himself

10 reach a conclusion, whatever it may have been, as to the armed group that

11 launched the bomb, because in his report he said that the modified air

12 bomb left from the Ilidza zone.

13 However, did he manage to reach a conclusion as to who launched

14 the bomb?

15 THE WITNESS: It was launched from the BSA area, Bosnian Serb army

16 area, held area.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's all I wanted to

18 know. Thank you.


20 Q. Just a couple of more questions, Mr. Brennskag, and then we will

21 be finished.

22 A few minutes ago you were answering the question about why it

23 would be a big problem to launch this air bomb from the spot marked "TH"

24 to hit the spot marked TV, and you said a couple of different things. You

25 said that you didn't have knowledge of how these things were launched, but

Page 3466

1 at one point you also said it was too short. When you saw four or five

2 air bombs being launched, as you've testified you saw during your time in

3 Sarajevo, can you describe the kind of flight path that you observed on

4 those four or five occasions?

5 A. Yes, I'll try.

6 They were launched in a, let's say, 45 degrees and had a fairly

7 long path. I'm not sure if I'm answering you correct.

8 Q. Let me -- let me put it this way: If an air bomb was launched

9 from the spot marked "TH," which at least on my version just went off the

10 screen. But if it was launched from the "TH" point in the direction of

11 the TV point, when it reached the TV point, what would such an air bomb be

12 doing, if it acted like the other four or five that you saw? That was

13 long question.

14 Do you understand what I'm asking?

15 A. I understand. The launch must have been horizontal, horizontal,

16 if that is the correct English word. So it would go 90 degrees towards

17 the wall or something like that.

18 Q. Did you ever observe an air bomb launched horizontally of the four

19 or five that you saw?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You testified a moment ago that they went up at about a 45 degree

22 angle. Was that true of all four or five of them?

23 A. Yes, fairly correct?

24 Q. And, lastly, did you ever see modified air bombs on the Bosnian

25 Muslim side of the confrontation lines? I mean unfired - I know you

Page 3467

1 investigated and saw them after they had landed - but unfired air bombs on

2 the Bosnian Muslim side.

3 A. I have never seen unfired modified air bombs on either of the

4 sides.

5 Q. Oh. And the air bomb incidents that you -- did you investigate

6 air bomb incidents during your time as a military observer?

7 A. Yes, two times.

8 Q. All right. And were those incidents were the impacts on the

9 Bosnian Muslim or Bosnian Serb side of the lines?

10 A. On the BiH side, the Bosnian Muslim side.

11 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no further questions, Mr. President. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I am Branislava Isailovic, a lawyer at the Paris Bar, and I defend

17 the accused General Dragomir Milosevic.

18 First of all, Mr. President, I would like to address the Chamber

19 for to you decide on the use of documents offered during

20 examination-in-chief. Indeed, the Prosecutor believes he is entitled to

21 use documents offered by the Defence, and he wants to use them during

22 examination-in-chief. So I would like you to decide, is this proper, is

23 it in keeping with the rules or not, before I start with my

24 cross-examination.

25 Thank you.

Page 3468

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not an objection that you raised at the

2 time. Why didn't you raise that objection at the time when it was being

3 tendered?

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I waited because I

5 didn't want to interrupt the examination-in-chief. I did raise an

6 objection. I said that it was not a document on the list, and the

7 Prosecutor answered that the document was part of the Defence list, which

8 is true. Therefore, I waited until now and as for future reference,

9 because I believe this is a relevant issue.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you may be caught by leges.

11 Let me hear from the Prosecutor on this technical point.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: Well, in general, Mr. President, we will always put

13 on our list all of the documents that we intend to use. This, I trust,

14 will be an exception. The document was on the Defence list. I understood

15 Ms. Isailovic's objection at the time to be founded on the grounds of

16 unfair prejudice, and therefore my response that it was on the Defence

17 list was meant to say that, Well, this is a document with which the

18 Defence may be expected to be familiar.

19 I certainly would have led the evidence with or without the

20 document regarding the launching sites and so forth. So I don't know that

21 even had the submission been made and been accepted by the Chamber, it may

22 have made the chief a little by the more awkward and a little by the

23 longer. But I don't know that there would have been any more substantive

24 effect than that.

25 But, as I say, this was an exception, given that the document did

Page 3469

1 appear on the Defence list; and, as I say, I perhaps misunderstood counsel

2 for the Defence at the time. I was responding to what I perceived be an

3 objection premised upon unfair prejudice.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What about their position of principle in

5 proceedings of this kind? Why shouldn't a party be able to use a document

6 that is on the exhibit list of another side? I'm not sure why not.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: I confess that I'm not sure why not either, Your

8 Honour. If the --

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, because -- may I --

10 may I make my submissions?

11 First of all, the Defence is under the obligation to disclose its

12 list when the witness is going to start his or her examination. So the

13 Prosecutor is not supposed to know the Defence exhibits beforehand; and to

14 say that anyway, it's in the list, in the Defence list, that is not an

15 argument because it is an erroneous argument. It may be true for us, for

16 us as, in the future, also for the Prosecution.

17 This is true for the cross-examining party, because 48 hours

18 beforehand I'm aware of the Prosecutor' list. So I do not have in my list

19 the documents that the Prosecutor is going to use in his list because any

20 way I could, and I do this systematically. In my own list, I do mention

21 this just to warn them of my interest in all these documents.

22 So here we found ourselves in a situation in which the Prosecutor

23 is asking us to protect the Prosecution's rights to allow them to use

24 documents of the Defence for examination-in-chief without prior warning.

25 Because, you see, Mr. President, Your Honours, I get prepared as we do any

Page 3470

1 Defence counsel, based on what is going to be put forward in the

2 examination-in-chief, and that is the way I organise my cross-examination,

3 in addition to other documents for my own case. So here --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. But what prejudice would you suffer,

5 because this document was on your list. So that, in any event, you have a

6 familiarity with it.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, fortunately it

8 is the case now, but in the future it could be different. This is why I'm

9 interested in your opinion in principle; for instance, I was interested in

10 this and I prepared beforehand whilst this document was not part of the

11 Prosecution list. I, too, am interested in the subject. That is why I

12 have it in my list. Let us not forget that this witness is a 92 ter

13 witness.

14 We had two lengthy prior statements, including a lot of details,

15 many chapters still to come. So we're now focussing only on those

16 statements, or at least we -- we did not say a word on the statements but

17 there was an investigation. Just as well I got prepared because this is

18 what I would do as well.

19 But I want to avoid this in the future. That's why I would like

20 to know what you think. Does the Prosecutor -- or is he under the

21 obligation of disclosing or indicating to the Defence which are the

22 documents he is planning to use during examination-in-chief or not? I

23 just want to know to be on the safe side.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I think the answer has to do with an

25 examination of the nature of the proceedings here. The proceedings are

Page 3471

1 essential adversarial; but even in the classical adversarial system, I'm

2 not sure that an objection of this kind would be upheld. And it seems to

3 me that over the years the strict adversarial procedure here has been

4 modified with the adoption of many features from the inquisitorial system.

5 Because this wouldn't arise in the system with which you are familiar in

6 Paris. This issue wouldn't arise at all, I take it?

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we're talking about

8 the inquisitorial system which is originally mine mean and also that of

9 the accused. We have the investigating judge as an institution;

10 therefore, everything that is in the file is in the trial record. So when

11 I appear before you, everybody knows everything. There is no surprise.

12 We have the file and the file has been established by the

13 investigating judge, and it's followed to the letter. It's not up to any

14 party. Even if parties have suggestions, they must have put them to the

15 investigating judge. They must ask for various steps to be taken; and if

16 the court insists, if you your own witnesses, you have to forewarn the

17 court.

18 I think the time-period is one week ahead of the hearing, so

19 everyone knows everything once you appear in court. So I believe that

20 this is precisely where the problem lies.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider it.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, regrettably, the Chamber is not

24 with you on this point. I had described it as a technical point, because

25 what -- that may be a little unfair. You are relying on the practical

Page 3472

1 procedures, which the Chamber itself had set out and which we expect to be

2 followed. But those procedures are more of guidance than rules, and it is

3 always within the discretion of the Chamber to deviate from it if it

4 considers that doing would advance the interests of the case that we are

5 trying.

6 And I would not expect the Prosecutor to be doing this frequently;

7 but in this case, the Chamber is quite prepared to allow him to utilise

8 the document, even though it was not on his list, and for that reason to

9 that extent had you no forewarning of it. But we allow on the basis that

10 it was on your list. Therefore, we cannot see what prejudice you would

11 suffer, because would you have developed a familiarity with it, sufficient

12 to conduct your examination or to react to anything that the Prosecutor

13 led in examination-in-chief.

14 So we'll allow it. But it is not to be taken as meaning that the

15 guidelines which we set have no value. They do have value, and we expect

16 both parties to adhere to them, subject to the qualifications we have set

17 out.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President.


20 MR. DOCHERTY: I don't mean to unnecessarily prolong this, but I

21 do I think it is important for me to put one or two things on the record

22 in case this should ever be looked at by a different Chamber. I want it

23 to be of record that we did file a proofing note. Your Honours have not

24 seen it, but the Defence did. The contents of the proofing were

25 exclusively about the observations from OP4 on the 28th of June, of 1995.

Page 3473

1 And I'll also note for the record - and the transcript is page 21

2 and 22 of the last witness, Mr. Hadzihasanovic - that the last document

3 which Mr. Tapuskovic used was also not on his list, and there was no

4 objection from the Prosecution. That being said, I take Your Honours

5 point, and that is why I described it as an exception, I think, three or

6 four times.

7 This is not something to made a habit of. We understand the

8 Chamber's guidelines, and we, I think, have followed them very, very well.

9 This was one exception, and I believe it was justified by the fact that,

10 as we have said, it was on the Defence list.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is this proofing note that you filed.

12 MR. DOCHERTY: It's a short note, Your Honour. If anything -- if

13 we meet with a witness and something is -- during proofing that we feel

14 need to be disclosed, then we type up what we call an information report

15 and we send it by e-mail to counsel for the Defence. And in this case,

16 after meeting with Mr. Brennskag, I typed up such a note, and I sent it to

17 the Defence through the case manager and it concerned exclusively the

18 events of 28th June.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you say "filed," you mean that you sent it

20 to the Defence, not through the registrar.

21 MR. WHITING: I used the term too loosely, but it concerned the

22 did Captain Hansen ever talk to you about being under shelter. That was

23 the subject of the nature.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're saying that any event the Defence did

25 have some warning of this issue.

Page 3474

1 MR. DOCHERTY: That is not to be taken as an excuse for not having

2 the document on the list but again it was an exception, and in this case I

3 believe a harmless one.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed, Ms. Isailovic.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one thing.

6 Mr. Docherty said something after your ruling. Can I use the same right

7 as Defence?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes. But I closed the issue, but very

9 briefly. Very briefly.

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] So putting documents on a list, it

11 is hard for the Chamber, not only for the Defence but also for the

12 Chamber, because you also get the list of the documents that will be used

13 by both parties. We -- systemically, we send to the Prosecution and to

14 the Chamber. And regarding this report, I also placed it on my own list

15 because I plan to use it. And that way --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, I have already ruled on it, and

17 you're just regurgitating arguments that we have already heard.

18 Please proceed with the cross-examination.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Okay. To save time, I

20 prepared the two statements that have already been tendered by the

21 Prosecution, and I have hard copies because I believe it will be easier to

22 use hard copies on the screen. I have four copies. Prosecution confirmed

23 they already have their own hard copy. So I have three copies for the

24 Judges and one for the witness, and they're -- these are statements that

25 are in English.

Page 3475

1 Q. So first, I would like, Mr. Witness, to start with the map we have

2 on screen, number 348. I think this map is still on the screen.

3 Witness, please, on this map with a blue pen - and I would like

4 the usher to please help the witness - could you please draw the

5 trajectory that you observed from where you were in your OP; the flight

6 path, please, on the day that the impact actually occurred. Can you

7 please draw the flight path.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. This is the flight path, but I don't think you get the target

10 here. So maybe we should re -- re-draw the flight path because you said

11 that the target was the TV building, and the TV building is on the map

12 next to the cross that you put. And, obviously, the flight path does not

13 end on the TV building. Do you see what I mean? Do you see the TV

14 building on this map, Mr. Witness?

15 A. Yes, and I understand what you mean. Maybe my drawing is a little

16 bit too uncorrect. Okay. It's 12 years ago.

17 Q. Yes. But what you observed from OP4 is a flight path that was of

18 that distance?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness, what exactly did you see, except for the white smoke

21 trail?

22 A. Because of the smoke trail, I could clearly see from where it

23 would -- it was launched, and I could see a part of the flight path

24 because of the smoke from the rocket; and just afterwards, I saw the

25 impact in the TV building.

Page 3476

1 Q. But my question was whether you saw anything else other than this

2 white smoke trail.

3 A. Not as far as I remember.

4 Q. Witness, you confirmed the content of the two statements you made

5 on May 2nd, 1996 and October 25th and 26th, 2006. I'm sure that you

6 remember that you confirmed the content of these statements. Could you

7 please answer with a yes or no, so that it can be noted on the transcript?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please take your 2006 statement and find page 5, paragraph

10 28. And please tell me what this paragraph means to you.

11 A. It means the same as I tried to explain. I watched the smoke of

12 the trail almost all the way, but I didn't see the smoke -- or the smoke

13 from the rocket was not all the way down to the TV building.

14 Q. Are you sure that that's what you are reading in paragraph 28?

15 A. Yes. The --

16 Q. Where did you see the word "smoke"?

17 A. No. I mean the "smoke" when I was stating I watched it almost all

18 the way.

19 Q. Witness, unfortunately, I don't speak English but what is written

20 here is "I watched it." "It" is the projectile rather than the smoke,

21 because the word "smoke" is not in your statement, or maybe I'm wrong.

22 A. I have no other answer other than I mean that I saw the smoke from

23 the projectile.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think what the counsel would want you to

25 explain is why you didn't say that when you gave your statement, because

Page 3477

1 there's no reference to any smoke in paragraph 28.

2 THE WITNESS: I have no answer.

3 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please keep this paragraph on hand, and take the

5 statement of 1996. Unfortunately, the paragraphs are not marked here, but

6 I'm looking at page 4 in this statement in the middle of the page, about

7 in the middle of the first -- of this statement.

8 "[In English] The projectile was launched from the Ilidza area,

9 sure from VRS-held territory. I can be sure about this because I know

10 from where the projectile was launched."

11 [Interpretation] That's all you said. So, Witness, please, can we

12 agree to say that your knowledge of the incident increased greatly after

13 seeing the Prosecutor on March 7, 2007? Is it true to say that? Is it

14 fair to say to say that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Witness, please, did you make a report on what you say that day?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. This is extremely interesting, what happened on the TV building.

19 At first, it didn't sound like it was going to be interesting, but it's

20 getting more and more interesting.

21 So let's talk about Captain Hansen, if you allow me. You don't

22 remember his name. You might have seen him somewhere. I think that's as

23 far as it goes.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Witness, does the name Mibub Il Alem [phoen], a

Page 3478

1 lieutenant-colonel, ring a bell. I believe his name is Ul Alem [phoen].

2 A. No.

3 Q. What about -- I think I'm going spell is out for the transcript,

4 S-u-n-d-q-u-e-s-t, it would be a major.

5 A. I'm not sure.

6 Q. What about Tarak Alam [phoen]?

7 A. I know a name Tarak, I think.

8 Q. Witness, please, your observation post was OP4, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'm sure you knew that there was an UNMO HQ located in Sarajevo.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us where that HQ was located?

13 A. It was located in the former television -- no, telephone and -- or

14 we wall the PTT building, Post and Telephone building, in Sarajevo.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, please, so there was a HQ. There were officers working

20 in that HQ. I'm sure you know that?

21 A. Yes, I know.

22 Q. Did you ever encounter these people in the PTT building?

23 A. Of course, I did.

24 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you ever have to write reports

25 and hand them over to the people working in the HQ?

Page 3479

1 A. Yes, but not during my time in the Pofalici team. I was not a

2 senior then. So I didn't deliver reports when I was in the Pofalici team.

3 Q. Witness, could you tell us today the name of this senior person

4 who wrote those reports and handed them over to the officers in the HQ of

5 UNMOs in the PTT building?

6 A. I'm not sure if I understand your question.

7 Q. Among the members of your team at OP4, you're saying that there

8 was a person, your senior manager or something, who went to the PTT

9 building to give the reports. Could you tell us the name of your senior

10 officer in the Pofalici team?

11 A. I don't have the names at remembering here. It was different

12 senior officers, at least two times changing, while I was in the Pofalici

13 team.

14 Q. We're talking about the period -- the day -- the period of June

15 28. I think you started with this position early in June. Is that it?

16 A. Earlier in June, yes.

17 Q. And when did you leave that position, that team?

18 A. Let me think. Last part of August, yeah. Maybe, yes.

19 Q. So that's a three-month period?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Who was -- who were the senior officers who contacted the HQ at

22 the beginning of your stay in the Pofalici team ?

23 A. Excuse me. I have to correct myself, because I left Sarajevo in

24 the middle part of September, so it must have been earlier than the last

25 part of August that I left the team.

Page 3480

1 Q. Mm-hm.

2 A. Could you please ask the question -- the last question again.

3 Q. Well, when exactly did you stay in OP4? Could you give us the

4 dates.

5 A. We were talking about the 28th of June.

6 Q. Reformulate everything. You arrived on June 2nd at OP4. Is that

7 true?

8 A. No. I arrived at Pofalici team at around the 2nd of June.

9 Q. Mm-hm. And you left -- left it before August. Is that what you

10 answered?

11 A. No. I said I left it before the late part of August, so maybe in

12 the middle part of August. I'm not sure of the date.

13 Q. Fine. So it's a short period of time. We're talking about two

14 and a half months. Did your senior officer who was in charge of

15 communication of the HQ change over that two-month period?

16 A. I'm not sure of your question. The senior officer or the team

17 when they were working were in contact with the UNMO HQ in the PTT

18 building very often.

19 Q. Witness, please, yourself, personally when you had something to

20 say, when you had observed something, who did you talk to? Who did you

21 report to?

22 A. It depended on what work we were on. When we were on the OP, we

23 normally reported by radio immediately. If not, it was made a statement

24 by the senior on the observation post when we left the OP and then went to

25 the PTT building.

Page 3481

1 Q. So regarding June 28, 1995, according to your memory, did you tell

2 what you have just explained to us here in this courtroom to anyone?

3 A. As far as I know today, yes.

4 Q. And this person that you told it to, was it a person who was

5 supposed to report this information to the HQ?

6 A. Today, yes, I suppose so.

7 Q. When you started testifying this morning, on page 34 in today's

8 transcript, line 25, you mentioned a report. You said - I'm not quoting

9 exactly - but you said: "I don't have the report with me." Were you

10 thinking of a very specific report that someone might have drafted after

11 having learned from you what you had seen on June 28, 1995?

12 A. I have no knowledge about that, so I can't answer you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand why you said you have no

14 knowledge. What the counsel is saying is that in your earlier testimony

15 you had mentioned a report, and she wanted more information about the

16 report. Can you -- do you remember that, when you were being questioned

17 by the Prosecutor?

18 THE WITNESS: I did not make any written report about the

19 incident, and I suppose that it was made a report, but I have never seen

20 the report.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you have been required to make a report in

22 the normal course of your duties about this incident?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. Normally, yes. But I did not make the written

24 report, and I have not seen the report, until I saw the report from the

25 UNMO HQ two days ago made by the Officer Hansen.

Page 3482

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do I understand then that you did make an oral

2 report.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes. As far as I remember, yes.


5 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: How? Was that by your radio?

7 THE WITNESS: Either by the radio or when I was in PTT building.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: On what day would that have been? The same day

9 as the incident or after?

10 THE WITNESS: It must have been the same day.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Isailovic. Sorry.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, was it sufficient

13 just to make a radio report? I imagine that seeing an air bomb was

14 something that didn't happen often. It was pretty novel for an UNMO.

15 Don't you think that would have deserved to be specifically reported in a

16 specific way?

17 THE WITNESS: It should have been, but I'm not sure if this

18 happened at this time.

19 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honours.

20 Q. So maybe we can refresh your memory. Because after what happened

21 that day, a huge investigation was launched within the UNMOs. So is that

22 helping you refresh your memory?

23 A. Yes. I know it was an investigation at the TV building because of

24 the shelling. I was not a part of the investigation, and I am not sure if

25 there were any UNMOs or other UN units who did the investigation.

Page 3483

1 Q. Yes, Witness, but I think we're not talking about the same thing.

2 Could you please look at paragraph 16 in the statement you gave on

3 October 2006.

4 A. Excuse me, did you say paragraph 16?

5 Q. [In English] 16. [Interpretation] Yes, 16.

6 A. From my statement 26th October 2006?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes, I see it.

9 Q. You mentioned a couple of names here that drew my attention;

10 Captain Nermen and Captain Edbu. Well, there's three names; there's also

11 Captain Goro. Do you see these three names? I don't think you had the

12 best of times with these people. This is not the best memory that you

13 have of Sarajevo.

14 A. I -- I know the names, yes, and I was working -- this was our

15 liaison officer officers from the ABiH.

16 Q. In the statement, you say that these people placed restrictions on

17 you. Do you see that in the statement, in paragraph 16?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So I'd like to know exactly how they placed restrictions on you.

20 Can you explain?

21 A. Yes. They told us where we were not allowed to go, either on

22 investigations or to -- to check if something had happened, and we had

23 to -- not to go there, where they told you we were not allowed to go.

24 Q. Witness, you're not the first UNMO here telling us about these

25 restrictions, so could you tell -- tell us exactly how you were restricted

Page 3484

1 from doing whatever?

2 A. Yes, I'll try.

3 We were supposed to have freedom of movement, but we were always

4 to announce in advance where we intended to go. Normally, this was a

5 message through the liaison officers, and then if they were -- they could

6 put restrictions on us. And, normally, as I stated, they called it safety

7 measures for ourselves for our own safety. That was the reason they said.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What kind of relationship did you have with these

10 liaison officers?

11 THE WITNESS: Some of them had their office in the PTT building,

12 so we had to meet them sometimes.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But what -- what kind of relationship did

14 you have with them? Did you get along with them? Was it a good

15 relationship?

16 THE WITNESS: I would say that they were officers, and we had a

17 normal professional officers' relationship. So we had a good talk when we

18 were talking together. No hostilities.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Notwithstanding the restrictions they placed on

20 you?

21 THE WITNESS: No. I believe it was their job to hand over to us

22 their orders from the their subordinates.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So, Witness, you know, I'm always thinking in legal terms. But,

Page 3485

1 you know, when there's a rule, if you transgress the rule, there is always

2 a sanction. So according to you, what could have been the sanction if

3 someone was not obeying the restrictions?

4 A. I would not speculate on that. I don't know.

5 Q. Personally, you always obeyed the rule.

6 A. Yes. I didn't have the arm; they had the arms.

7 Q. I forgot to ask you that question. So they were armed on top of

8 everything?

9 A. Normally, in the army they are armed.

10 Q. Witness, earlier, when I asked you about the investigation, I was

11 not talking about the investigation after the incident with the crater

12 analysis and so on. All this has been done, I know. But I was talking

13 about an investigation conducted within your institution, the-- within the

14 UNMO institution, investigation among different officers after June 28th.

15 I think this investigation lasted a week. Do you have any

16 recollection of this inquiry, of this internal inquiry, at the centre of

17 which was Captain Hansen?

18 A. I -- as far as I remember, I was not a part of this internal

19 investigation. And I didn't -- and today I don't remember if it was an

20 internal investigation.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, we'll adjourn now for the break.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you continue, Ms. Isailovic, I'll just

25 give a decision on the Prosecution's partly confidential motion for

Page 3486

1 protective measures for witnesses W-32, W-57, and W-95.

2 In that motion, the Prosecution requested that each witness be

3 assigned a pseudonym, be allowed to testify with image distortion, and

4 that W-57, in addition, be allowed to testify with voice distortion. The

5 Prosecution attached a confidential Annex setting out the circumstances

6 supporting the requests for protective measures. The Defence did not

7 respond to the motion, but the Defence has on certainly occasions

8 indicated that as a matter of principle, it does not object to the

9 granting of protective measures, so long as such measures do not

10 completely exclude the public.

11 In light of all the circumstances, including the submissions made

12 by the Prosecution and the contents of the Annex and also in light of the

13 relative provisions of the statute and its Rules, the Chamber grants the

14 motion.

15 Please continue, Ms. Isailovic.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, before the break, we mentioned this internal

18 investigation of which you say you were not a part of; is that right?

19 A. As far as I remember, I was not a part of it.

20 Q. Were there possibly rumours circulating among the UNMO soldiers,

21 since - how shall I put it? - some kind of force was used against your

22 members?

23 A. No, not that I remember.

24 Q. Do you remember that among the officers in the UNMO HQ, there was

25 an officer in charge of relationships with the PO teams?

Page 3487

1 A. No, I only know about the liaison officer. I called the liaison

2 officer -- offices in the PTT building. I don't remember and I don't

3 understand what you are meaning.

4 Q. What I mean is this: Among the UNMO people working in the

5 headquarters, there was somebody who was in charge of giving instructions

6 to the people manning the POs, including yours. Is that right? A kind of

7 operational officer.

8 A. Oh, yes. It was an operational officer in the UNMO HQ, yes.

9 Q. Do you know his name by any chance?

10 A. For two days ago, I wrote a statement from 1995 where it was

11 stated that Hansen was the operational officer, but I couldn't remember it

12 before.

13 Q. Let us return to what you saw on that day. It can be said today

14 that all you saw was this white smoke, the white trail of smoke?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. More specifically, you saw the white trail of smoke coming from a

17 specific direction; is that right?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. On that day, did you see only one white smoke trail?

20 A. I can't remember. It was more shelling that day, but I can't

21 remember more than one smoke trail.

22 Q. Do you remember at what time you saw the white trail of smoke?

23 A. Not -- no. Not until I saw the HQ statement of the 29th of June,

24 where it was said that it was in the morning, but I couldn't myself

25 remember.

Page 3488

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is your evidence that you did not remember the

2 time when you saw the white trail of smoke until you saw the HQ statement

3 of the 29th, which said it was in the morning?

4 THE WITNESS: The statement said it was, I think it was 9.20 in

5 the morning, and that of course I couldn't remember before.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is that you can't remember? That it

7 occurred in the morning or the time at which it occurred?

8 THE WITNESS: In which time of the day it occurred. If it was

9 9.00, 10.00, 11.00, I simply couldn't rather.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, okay.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. Precisely. Going in the same direction, what statement are you

13 speaking of? When did you state that it was at 9.20?

14 A. When I saw the report from the UNMO HQ two days ago, it was dated

15 9.20, and this is not my remembrance.

16 Q. So here before the Chamber, it can be said that in the two

17 statements used here you never made any mention of the exact time when you

18 saw the bomb as it was launched from Ilidza?

19 A. I can't remember that I have stated the exact time. I can't

20 remember.

21 Q. And I do take note of this. In your statements, there's no

22 mention of that.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

24 map, P348. I started annotating or marking with you. I want to keep it,

25 or save it, please, Mr. Registrar.

Page 3489

1 Mr. President, I'd like it tender this map into evidence with the

2 additional marking made by the witness.


4 THE REGISTRAR: As D114, Your Honours.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask my case manager to

6 display 65 ter document 297.

7 Q. Witness, please, have a look at your statement made in 1996, and

8 please go to page 3, third paragraph.

9 Did you find the paragraph? It starts with: "We could see."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you mentioned the air bombs that were launched from the

12 VRS-held territory. Further on, you speak about mortars which you saw

13 fired from the Bosnian government's side. Is that so?

14 A. Sorry, could you please say again?

15 Q. The second sentence in this paragraph starts with the following

16 words: "What concerns what I could see."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mm-hm. Further on, you state that close to your OP there was an

19 ABiH T55 tank, and you say that you never say it fired -- or fire?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. This is my first question. Did you always keep an eye on this

22 tank?

23 A. No. But what I say, I never saw it being firing.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now zoom in to enlarge the

25 map so as to see the central part of it. Could we take it down a little,

Page 3490

1 scroll it down, yes.

2 Q. You, as an officer, can you find your way on this military map?

3 A. Yes. It's a little by the unclear on the screen, but of course I

4 can find my way.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, could we scroll it down a

6 little and then enlarge the part where we see 102. Yes, the part that is

7 darker.

8 Q. Do you recognise -- can you see Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Around the word "Sarajevo," can you see various markings?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you maybe see one mention indicating heavy weaponry?

13 A. It's unclear for me. Is it possible to scroll it more down,

14 please?

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, scroll it down, but also

16 zoom in just to enlarge it.

17 Q. Look at these markings, the various signs on this -- or icons on

18 this map.

19 A. What kind of marking do you mean?

20 Q. I mean all these markings. Among them can you find any showing

21 the positions of heavy weapons, mortars, tanks, and so on.

22 A. I'm not familiar with those markings, so I can't say for sure

23 if -- if I have a pen, I could --

24 Q. Mm-hm.

25 A. I'm not certain because I'm not familiar with the -- with this

Page 3491

1 kind of military markings. But over here it's stated "155," and I'm not

2 sure if this is a 155 military -- artillery. So I can't say. I can't

3 say.

4 Q. Well, let's move on.

5 In your prior statement, in paragraph 24 to start with, this is

6 the statement you made in 2006 where the various paragraphs are numbered.

7 The first words of that paragraph are: "The Bosnians often fired."

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. 24. Indeed, you speak of mortars here that were positioned close

10 to the -- or near the PTT building. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Towards the end of that paragraph, you say this: "[In English]

13 Military position within civilians areas, which is something they should

14 not have done."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. [Interpretation] As an officer, could you be more specific. What

17 does this mean to you?

18 A. It means to me, if you, for example, establish a smaller HQ in a

19 flat or a basement where civilian people are living, I would not be

20 allowed to do that, and I should not do that. That's what I mean here.

21 Q. During your tour in Sarajevo, in the part of the territory held by

22 the ABiH, did you realise there was such positions of HQ in civilian

23 buildings or as you say here in this paragraph that there were mortars

24 positioned near the PTT building? Were you able to see, to observe that?

25 A. I was able to see firing from -- mortars from this car junkyard.

Page 3492

1 Q. In the last sentence of paragraph 24, which military positions

2 specifically are you speaking about?

3 A. I'm talking about small HQs. That's what I remember. That I

4 was -- when I was stating this, it is fairly close to where people are

5 living.

6 Q. So between these HQs, as you say, were there soldiers that would

7 circulate between them?

8 A. I don't understand what you are meaning.

9 Q. Military personnel, ABiH soldiers, say, would they go to these

10 HQs?

11 A. I have no personal knowledge, but I suppose so.

12 Q. During your tour of service, as of the 2nd of June, were you able

13 to observe the presence of soldiers in the centre of Sarajevo, in the part

14 that was held by the ABiH?

15 A. Excuse me. Do you mean soldiers in uniform or soldiers battling

16 or in positions?

17 Q. Well, Witness, you know what a soldier is. A soldier, in my view,

18 is somebody carrying a weapon. He may not necessarily be wearing a

19 uniform, but uniform, weapons, anything that is -- shows that a person is

20 not a civilian individual.

21 A. Yes. During my time in Sarajevo, I saw several times soldiers in

22 uniform, yes.

23 Q. Witness, do you recall a time during your mission, so starting on

24 the 2nd of June, and that would be around the 15th of June, do you recall

25 intense military activities throughout the territory of Sarajevo held by

Page 3493

1 the ABiH, but also on the territory held by the VRS, or BSA?

2 A. I'm not sure of the date. I'm not sure.

3 Q. Still, around that time, in that period from the 2nd of June

4 until, as we established, mid-August 1995, was that a period of more

5 intense military activities?

6 A. It escalated and the military activity was very high up to the

7 middle part of August, I think.

8 Q. Witness, do you remember that during that period UNMOs were not

9 authorised to go on their own initiative to the Sarajevo hospitals or in

10 that part of Sarajevo that was controlled by the ABiH?

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. Well, go to your first statement, the one made in 1996. The

13 paragraphs are not numbered. That is towards the end of page 3.

14 We're going to speak about this: I quote: "I investigated two

15 impacts of these modified air bombs. [In English] We were not allowed to

16 go to the hospital."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Did that happen only once? Were you not allowed

19 to go to the hospital only once?

20 A. I don't remember, but this special occasion I remember because I

21 was a part of it.

22 Q. Precisely, Witness. Let us speak about this incident that

23 occurred on the 22nd of June, 1995, in the Geteova Street. This is what

24 you said. Do you remember the name of that street?

25 A. I'm not sure the name of the street, but it's in the vicinity of

Page 3494

1 Alipasino Polje.

2 Q. Do you have a more specific recollection of this incident?

3 A. Yes. I was not on OP that day, so me and I think two of my

4 colleagues were designated to investigate the impact in Alipasino Polje.

5 Q. Witness, you speak about this incident in both statements. We've

6 just seen this in the first statement, and now this has jogged your

7 memory. Your second statement in paragraph 25, there's also reference to

8 this.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Before moving to the second

12 statement, could the witness tell us why he was not authorised to go to

13 hospitals. That's page 3 of his statement.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please. Counsel,

15 microphone.

16 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, you heard the question put by Judge Mindua. So in your

18 view, and as far as you recall, what was the reason: Why weren't you able

19 to visit hospitals?

20 A. At that incident, we were not allowed to go to the hospital as far

21 as I know, and I don't know why, and I don't know the reason.

22 Q. So who told you not to go there?

23 A. As far as I know, it was the local Sarajevo police who were also

24 investigating the same incident.

25 Q. Is it the members of this local police who forebade you to go to

Page 3495

1 the hospital?

2 A. As far as I know today, I think it was the local police at the

3 incidents.

4 Q. Witness, please, I know this -- this dates back a long time, but

5 do you remember the moment you arrived on site? First question: Did

6 anyone call you there?

7 A. Yes. We were called to do the investigation by the UNMO HQ.

8 Q. When you arrived on the site, do you recall anything -- or rather,

9 do you recall the people that you might have seen on the site?

10 A. When I arrived the site, they were just about to take away a girl

11 under a blanket and I remember her father. He was very upset.

12 Q. Witness, do you remember the people who carried that little girl

13 under the blanket?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you -- did you see what was under the blanket, or did you just

16 see the blanket that was covering the body?

17 A. No. I saw it was a young girl.

18 Q. In your statement, you say that you were not allowed to take

19 photographs on the site. Is that true?

20 A. That's true.

21 Q. Witness, that day, did you see anyone else taking photographs on

22 site?

23 A. Yes. The Sarajevo police, who made also a parallel investigation,

24 had photo on the scene.

25 Q. Do you remember the marks that this air bomb might have left on

Page 3496

1 site?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where were they located?

4 A. On the -- on the road, asphalt road or tarmac road.

5 Q. Witness, did you see the marks of the impact on the wall of the

6 building that was located close to that impact site that you just

7 mentioned?

8 A. Not as far as I remember.

9 Q. And after your investigation on the site, you noted that this bomb

10 that fell and left markings on the -- in the asphalt definitely killed

11 people who were in the building. That was the result of the

12 investigation.

13 A. No, not the result of our investigation. We investigated the

14 impact on the road.

15 Q. But as a person involved in the investigation, do you find it

16 feasible that the shrapnel of a bomb that would have fell outside a

17 building would kill people that would be inside a building located close

18 to the first impact site?

19 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Docherty.

21 MR. DOCHERTY: I object to the question that was just put as

22 misstating the witness's answer. The sequence of questions was: Did your

23 investigation show that people were killed inside the building; the answer

24 was no. And then as though the answer had been yes, counsel puts the

25 question; is it feasible that the impact on the road would have killed

Page 3497

1 people inside the building, when the witness has said that his

2 investigation did not show such a thing.

3 So I object to the question being put, because there's not an

4 adequate predicate for it in the witness's first answer.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic. Perhaps you should reformulate

6 it.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, maybe I will

8 reformulate the question on the possibility that this witness would be

9 able to actually investigate anything, because I based myself on what --

10 on his own experience.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, reformulate the question then.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So, according to your experience, you carried out investigations

14 on impact sites. How -- according to your experience, how can fragments

15 or shrapnel coming from a projectile kill anyone who was located behind

16 some kind of barrier, for example, behind a wall?

17 A. I would not speculate on -- on that. Because on this scene, we

18 were investigating the impact and what we saw around the impact, and I saw

19 one girl being taken away. Thank you.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Surely, Mr. Brennskag, maybe I should put my

21 question through counsel. If you could please put the question do him

22 that if he were to determine the direction of the origin of the fire, he

23 would have had to examine also the marks left on the wall, of the

24 shrapnels. I think the witness has already said that he did not do that,

25 so that's one point of clarification.

Page 3498

1 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Harhoff. That

2 was exactly my line of questioning.

3 Q. So you heard the question from Judge Harhoff. During your

4 investigation to determine where the shot came from, did you also take the

5 impacts that might have existed on the walls located around the place

6 where the projectile landed?

7 A. I understand the question. As far as I know, of course, when you

8 are investigating an impact, you have to look for shrapnels in the nearby

9 areas so you are very sure of -- from where the direction -- the direction

10 the impact is coming. I can't remember what -- if we did that on the

11 walls at this incident. I can't remember.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, one hour and 20 minutes had been

13 allocate the for you. You have about another five minutes left of that.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I -- by your

15 leave, if I could please have little more time to finish off. I don't

16 really have many topics to cover.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You haven't waited for me to grant the request or

18 to decide whether to grant it. We will grant it, but on no account are we

19 going to have this witness carried over.

20 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise for this.

21 Q. So, Witness, regarding this very specific incident, we, in this

22 courtroom, have really looked into this incident, and this is what I'm

23 interested in: If victims were behind a wall, would the fragment have to

24 go through that wall, penetrate the wall and go through the wall in order

25 to injure the people who were located on the other side of the wall?

Page 3499

1 A. This will only be speculation. Yes, of course, it could be a

2 mirror, a thin wall, depends. This is only speculations, and I don't like

3 to make speculations.

4 Q. From what I understand, the fragment will have to penetrate the

5 wall, in the first place, to hit someone that would be located behind the

6 wall?

7 A. I don't want to answer because this is speculations. I don't know

8 anything about it, at that specific location.

9 Q. Witness, what exactly did you do on the site?

10 A. Briefly, we made a crater analysis; and through these analysis, we

11 could find from where the region from where the bomb was launched, just

12 the direction.

13 Q. Did you draw these conclusions on that very day?

14 A. Oh, yes. We draw the conclusion of the direction on the scene.

15 Q. Did you do this jointly with the civilian police?

16 A. No. We made our own investigation without inference with the

17 Sarajevan police. Afterwards, we were talking together, of course, and

18 they had the same conclusion. So we were not interfered with when we were

19 doing our job.

20 Q. Regarding the little girl, did you know whether she had been

21 killed or injured only?

22 A. For my own knowledge, she could -- because I didn't see the

23 injuries under the blanket, from my own knowledge, she could only have

24 been - well, only - had been injured. But afterwards through -- I know

25 that she was killed.

Page 3500

1 Q. On the site, did anyone tell you where that little girl was when

2 the incident occurred?

3 A. Yeah. Her father, of course.

4 Q. What did he tell you?

5 A. He told us that her girl -- his girl was killed.

6 Q. Did he tell you where she was when she was killed?

7 A. I can't remember now exactly, but I -- so I can't say.

8 Q. But maybe someone else might have told you afterwards?

9 A. I don't understand the question. I -- I said that her father, of

10 course, was talking and said that his girl were killed, but I didn't see

11 it myself that she was dead.

12 Q. Maybe you remember that you were told she was in her bed.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, one last topic. When you took over your position, when you

15 started working in Bosnia, you were first in Pale. Is that true?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. In the two statements that you gave you're also talking about

18 this. And regarding Pale, you -- your impressions were not very good,

19 rather bad.

20 A. Hmm. I have no bad, especially bad memories from my time in Pale.

21 So I don't know what you are up to -- asking me for.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on and conclude now, Ms. Isailovic.

23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. First, in your statement of 1996 on page 2, on paragraph 3, you're

25 talking about your experience in Pale. But at the end of the -- middle of

Page 3501

1 the page when talking about the heavy weapons collection points, do you

2 know -- did you find that? It's on the statement of 1996, second page,

3 and it's the third paragraph.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You're talking on that second page about the heavy weapons

6 collection points --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- located on the Serbian side. And are you saying: "[In

9 English] From collection points, weapons were not removed."

10 A. Yes. It is so that when we were supposed to inspect the weapon

11 collection points, we have to make an announcement in good advance; and

12 the times when we were able to inspect the weapon collection points, the

13 weapons and the vehicles that should be there were there then.

14 Q. But you were not really free to move around. You had restrictions

15 imposed on you, like what happened on the BiH side?

16 A. Yes. We had a lot of restrictions, so we -- and especially we had

17 to make announcement in good time advance before we had to move or make

18 our inspections.

19 Q. You're also talking about the helicopter that was supposed to

20 evacuate the seriously wounded people towards -- to Serbia or to Belgrade?

21 A. This is one of the tragic memories. At that time, it was no-fly

22 zone, but there was agreement that the Bosnian Serbs could take their

23 seriously sick people who needed treatment to Belgrade. I think it was

24 Belgrade.

25 And in my location, we had a small hospital in Pale; and then it

Page 3502

1 was a bigger hospital - I think it was originally for mentally sick

2 people - in Sokolovic, and on announcement to the UN, the Bosnian Serbs

3 had a helicopter taking the patients from Pale. They were landing

4 sometimes at Sokolovic and taking patients to Belgrade. I think it was

5 Belgrade. And our mission was to -- to check that this transport was in

6 order to the agreements.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

8 Ms. Isailovic, you have to end now.

9 Any re-examination?

10 MR. DOCHERTY: None, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: None. Thank you.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

14 for coming to the Tribunal to give it.

15 We will adjourn now and you may leave with us. We'll resume on

16 Monday at 9.00 a.m.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of March,

20 2007, at 9.00 a.m.