Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4468

1 Wednesday, 4 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Today we continue hearing evidence by

6 video-conference link.

7 Mr. Sachdeva.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, good morning to you, and good

9 morning to Your Honours.

10 Before we start the next witness, might I make a clarification for

11 the record from yesterday.


13 MR. SACHDEVA: Yesterday, His Honour Judge Harhoff asked me a

14 request with respect to the direction of fire from the residence of the

15 last witness yesterday, Ms. Gotovac, and I had informed the Trial Chamber

16 that it was from her residence south-west and that the origin of fire was

17 Lukavica. In fact, it is south-east from her residence to Lukavica. And

18 the witness that we will be calling, (redacted), will hopefully

19 demonstrate that that is the direction of fire from her residence, as he

20 was involved in the investigation of that incident.

21 So just to make that clarification. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, immediately before that is done, just

24 so that everybody in the room is aware, the second witness who is going to

25 appear this morning will not be available before noon I have been told.

Page 4469

1 The Victims and Witness Unit won't be picking her up until that time, and

2 that's because she has a work commitment that she wasn't able to change.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

4 Let the witness make the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness testified through interpreter]

9 [Witness testified via videolink]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

11 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Holjan. Can you hear me?

13 A. Yes. Yes, we can.

14 Q. That's good. I'd like to ask you some questions then about the

15 statements that you have given as to what happened on the day you were

16 shot and then some extra details about that day. Do you understand?

17 A. Yes. Yes, we understand.

18 Q. Now, first, Mr. Holjan, have you had a chance to read the three

19 statements that you have given about the day you were shot; one to the

20 authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1995, one to the Tribunal in

21 1996, and then the last one to the Tribunal in 2006?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, if I could just ask you a question about those three

24 statements, I see in the first and the second statement, the ones from

25 1995 and 1996, you said you were sitting on the right-hand side of the

Page 4470

1 tram when you were shot. But in the last statement, from 2006, you were

2 sitting -- you said you were sitting on the left-hand side of the tram

3 when you were shot.

4 A. Well, I made a small mistake there. I switched the two sides.

5 Q. So could you please clarify for us today exactly what side of the

6 tram you were at when you were shot, the right or the left-hand side?

7 A. We were on the right-hand side of the tram near the door, near the

8 exit door of the tram.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And was he sitting or standing?


11 Q. Were you sitting or standing, Mr. Holjan; do you remember?

12 A. We were sitting, sitting on the right-hand side next to the exit

13 door, and that's where we were hit by the armed conflict.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, apart from what we've just talked about, do you

15 have any other changes you want to make to your statement?

16 A. No. I have nothing to add or change.

17 Q. Thank you very much for that.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Then, Your Honours, if I could, I'd like to tender

19 the Bosnian language statement of Mr. Holjan with 65 ter number 03074, the

20 1996 statement with ter number 03073, and the 2006 statement with ter

21 number 03072, each as exhibits, please.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit them.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 03074 becomes P524; 65

24 ter number 03073 becomes P525; and 65 ter number 03072 becomes P526.


Page 4471

1 Q. Now, Mr. Holjan, because all the previous statements that you have

2 given, with the clarification that you have made, have been admitted as

3 exhibits for the Trial Chamber to study. I only have one more question

4 for you about what happened on the day you were shot.

5 Do you remember whether you heard or you saw any kind of military

6 activity, no matter what, going on around the time and place you were

7 shot?

8 A. There were no military activities going on there. They were

9 holding those cross roads. It was all civilians. There were no military

10 persons there, only civilians.

11 Q. Now, thank you very much, Mr. Holjan. Those are all the questions

12 I'm going to ask you, and now the counsel for General Milosevic has some

13 questions for you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Branislava

18 Isailovic. I work for the Paris Bar Association, and I am defending the

19 accused, General Dragomir Milosevic. As the Prosecutor has just told you,

20 I'm going to ask you a few questions regarding the statements you gave to

21 the Bosnian police and to the Prosecutor.

22 To begin with, Witness, you have just corrected a detail contained

23 in your statement dated the 25th of April, 2006. You remember this, don't

24 you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4472

1 Q. Could you tell us, please, why, on the 25th of April, 2006, you

2 mentioned the left-hand side of the tramway? You said that this was the

3 side of the tram where you were sitting at the time of the incident.

4 A. I corrected it.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, Witness, what counsel is asking you is to

6 explain why, in the first instance, you said you were sitting on the

7 left-hand side of the tram?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I made a mistake. I made a

9 mistake.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell me when did you first realise that

11 you had made a mistake?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the day when I made

13 this mistake.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, you were questioned twice. Once on the 14th of April,

16 1995, you indicated that you were on the right-hand side, as you did

17 today; and on the 22nd of February, 1996, you also indicated that you were

18 on the right-hand side like today. And it was only in 2006, in light of

19 this trial, that you indicated that you were on the left-hand side.

20 So this is my question: Did someone from the Office of the

21 Prosecutor who conducted the interview with you suggest to you that it

22 might have been on this side? Yes or no. I mean the left-hand side of

23 the tram.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, Witness, could you tell us, please, in which direction was

Page 4473

1 the tram heading when you said that the fires were shot from Grbavica? So

2 which -- in which direction was the tram heading?

3 A. The tram was moving from Marindvor in the direction of Novo

4 Sarajevo, New Sarajevo, where my company is located.

5 Q. And which side of the tram was facing Grbavica, as you said that

6 the shot came from there?

7 A. The left side.

8 Q. Witness, you also mention in your statement dated 25th of April,

9 2006 things which you did not mention in your 1996 statement; namely, in

10 paragraph 12, and this is document P526, the witness's statement dated

11 26th of April, 2006 -- 25th of April. In paragraph 12, this is on page 3

12 of the English text and on page 3 of the B/C/S version.

13 Witness, have you read this paragraph?

14 A. I don't know where exactly the conflict line is in relation to the

15 side from which the shot came. It might have been a thousand metres away

16 up on the hills.

17 Q. Witness, did you know at the time of this incident where the

18 confrontation lines were exactly?

19 A. I didn't say where the confrontation line was at the time when

20 what happened happened to us down there in the tram.

21 Q. From what I understood, Witness, you had to move around the town

22 quite a bit. This was part of your job, wasn't it?

23 A. Well, that's what my job was like. I had to be in town all the

24 time.

25 Q. Witness, do you remember that at the time there was a border which

Page 4474

1 shouldn't be crossed at the time?

2 A. At that time, there were no borders one couldn't cross, because we

3 had to go from the Bascarsija to Cengic Vila all the time, and we had do

4 our work and do our jobs.

5 Q. And when you talk about the neighbourhood of Grbavica, did you

6 quite often to Grbavica during the war?

7 A. I didn't go to Grbavica at all throughout the war, over the

8 Miljacka. We only went on this side to Cengic Vila or Novo Sarajevo, or

9 New Sarajevo.

10 Q. And what was Miljacka river at the time; in other words, as

11 regards the position of both armies?

12 A. I don't know what the Miljacka represented. The two armies had

13 their own border, but we who were down there didn't know anything about

14 those.

15 Q. Witness, in paragraph 13 of your statement, which we have

16 currently before us, the one dated 25th of April, 2006, you mention the

17 military facilities, or rather, lack of military facilities in that area

18 where the tram was hit. Do you see this paragraph?

19 A. In the vicinity of the scene where we were attacked by sniper

20 fire, there were absolutely no military facilities or establishments.

21 Q. Witness, as far as you are concerned, what are military

22 facilities? What does that bring to mind, as far as you're concerned?

23 A. We think there were no soldiers there. Had there been any

24 military establishments, we thought it would have happened because of that

25 army, but that was not so.

Page 4475

1 Q. When you say -- or when you talk about a military purpose, what

2 you have in mind are soldiers; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you are telling us now that when you had to move around in the

5 town in that area, you saw soldiers of the ABiH army; is that right?

6 A. We had to -- no. None of us understood anything about those

7 soldiers. We had a lot of work to do. We had to take care of ourselves,

8 our employees, our work, our business, the jobs we had to do.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, yes.

11 MS. EDGERTON: I'm not raising any objection but I'm wondering

12 with respect to the question that my friend asked at page 8 and line 8,

13 "When you had to move around in that area you saw soldiers of the ABiH

14 army." I'm wondering if she can be a little bit more precise because it

15 seems to me that the line of questioning has moved far away from the

16 location at which the attack happened, and it may assist everyone in terms

17 of understanding and clarity if she could be more precise as to what

18 location she is talking about.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the area to which you are referring,

20 Ms. Isailovic.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honour, it's

22 becoming an extremely difficult task. You didn't see, you didn't see

23 soldiers, did you? I have to keep an eye on the screen all the time on

24 the transcript. My question was and I can repeat it.

25 And the witness said that he didn't see, and therefore I asked

Page 4476

1 him, "When you moved around you didn't see soldiers of the ABiH army, did

2 you?"

3 That was the question I put in French, and maybe this was

4 translated into B/C/S, "as you saw, didn't you," because in the statement

5 he said that he didn't see any.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on.

7 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could answer

8 this question, please, so maybe I could repeat it.

9 Q. You say in your statement that you never saw in this neighbourhood

10 of Marindvor, you never say any ABiH soldiers, did you?

11 A. No. No.

12 Q. So you are saying that you didn't see them.

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, in his statement, paragraph 13, he

15 says, "There were absolutely no military establishments in the vicinity of

16 the scene where we were attacked." He doesn't say specifically soldiers.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the question

18 what did he understand by the term "military facilities," he answered by

19 using the word "soldiers," so I hope this is recorded properly.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Move on.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, could you indicate what the position of the tramway was

23 at the time of the impact if I show you a photograph. I have prepared a

24 photograph, but I would, first and foremost, like to ask you this

25 question. Do you remember this well enough? If we are to show you a

Page 4477

1 photograph, would you be able to tell us?

2 A. The tram was near the technical school when this incident happened

3 at Marindvor.

4 Q. In that case, I think we could show you this photograph, as you

5 will see.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This is 2914 on the 65 ter list,

7 on the Defence exhibit list, Exhibit 1D, and we shall bring it up on the

8 screen. And I would like the registrar in Sarajevo to show this to you,

9 please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see anything here, nothing.

11 I see nothing here. How could I see the tram here? What is this?

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Could we please see the photograph

13 also?

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It's coming. It's coming.

15 I just heard that the witness doesn't see anything, and I wanted

16 to ask him questions using the photographs with the buildings and the

17 tower and so on, but obviously we can't do anything with a picture [as

18 interpreted].

19 Q. Witness, please, is this the area -- Witness, please, can you try

20 and find your way in this picture?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Find what?

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, find the tracks, in the

23 first place, and the area where the incident occurred. And maybe with the

24 camera in Sarajevo we could see this. The witness could point on the

25 photograph in Sarajevo.

Page 4478

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot find my way here at

2 all.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

4 He can't help you by way of the photograph.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, in your statement, which is now P525, your statement of

7 February 22nd, 1996, on page 2, in the third paragraph, there is a

8 sentence in the middle of this paragraph. You talk of a woman who was

9 seriously wounded, and you heard that she died in hospital. Do you see

10 this?

11 A. Yes. I'm reading it now. What was this? While we were in the

12 street, I saw a wounded woman. This wounded woman was transferred by car

13 to a hospital. She was seriously wounded. And people tried to -- well, I

14 heard she died in hospital. I think five people were wounded. Before we

15 got out of the tram, I did not see anything. There was commotion on the

16 tram; there was panic. I was afraid that none of us would survive.

17 Q. Witness, who told you that this woman died at hospital?

18 A. Well, the passengers who were there with us, who were taken up to

19 the emergency ward.

20 Q. But you didn't get any confirmation later that this woman had

21 actually died. These were just rumours.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. One last thing. It's the first statement you made right after the

24 fact, April 14, 1995, a month and so after the incident. This is the

25 document which was given the number P524 and the 3074 on the 65 ter list.

Page 4479

1 You don't have to read out loud the entire statement. I'm just asking --

2 I'll just ask you a question, and if you don't remember you can look at

3 the document.

4 In this document, you say that you were sitting on the right side

5 of the tram, that it was very crowded, and you're talking about bursts of

6 fire that you heard. Could you please tell us more about this, these

7 bursts of fire that you heard.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, did you hear the question? Can you tell

9 us anything more about the bursts of fire that you heard?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what else I'm supposed

11 to say. There were bursts of gun-fire. There were woundings, then people

12 who were wounded were saved, and then they were discharged and they were

13 allowed to go home. That is the only thing I can say to you.

14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. When reading this statement, maybe that's the way it is. But I

16 want to ask you a question, because you say that you heard bursts of fire

17 on the left side of the tram. That's what you say, and then --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- after that, you say the bullets started to hit the tram.

20 So here is my question. It's a very specific question: Before

21 hearing the bullets hitting the tram, did you hear the bursts of fire

22 first?

23 A. We didn't hear it before that, before the bullets started hitting

24 the tram, and then we fell on to the floor of the tram in order to save

25 ourselves from being hit, and not all of us could save ourselves.

Page 4480

1 Somebody had to get hit.

2 Q. You're absolutely sure of the direction. The bullets were only

3 coming from the left-hand side of the tram. You're sure of that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

7 Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Just a couple of brief questions, Your Honours.

9 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

10 Q. Mr. Holjan, can I ask you some questions based on the answers that

11 you gave to General Milosevic's counsel now.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Holjan, just before your tram was shot, do you remember

14 whether you saw any tanks in the neighbourhood?

15 A. The tank was up at the crossroads, near the hygiene institute. It

16 was the white UN tank that protected passers-by when they tried to cross

17 from one side of the street to the other.

18 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any further questions, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

20 Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for giving it

21 and you may now leave.

22 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We now have an enforced break. I should say that

24 even though I understand the difficulties in having witnesses present,

25 every effort should be made to ensure that we make the best and most

Page 4481

1 efficient use of the Chamber's time.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Understood, Your Honour.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I do have one small matter that I can

4 raise since we have a few minutes.

5 I do want to inform the Trial Chamber that we have not forgotten

6 about our -- the request to try to track down Captain Idriz in Kenya.

7 We're continuing to do that. I have been speaking almost on a daily basis

8 with the embassy here, and I -- I was hoping to receive some information

9 yesterday. I didn't. I'm hoping today but certainly by the end of the

10 week I will submit a complete report about all our efforts and the results

11 up to that point.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

13 We are adjourned. Let me clarify then. We are in the hand of the

14 Prosecution apparently, and are we to resume court at 12.00 or will you

15 let us know whether the witness who is going to testify by

16 video-conference link is available at that time or at some other time?

17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, for the sake of safety, I would prefer

18 to let the Chamber know exactly when the witness is available so we don't

19 waste any further time in our schedules for the day. And as soon as I can

20 confirm that, I'll advise everyone.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 We're adjourned.

23 --- Break taken at 9.44 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.01 p.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, who is the next witness?

Page 4482

1 MS. EDGERTON: This next witness, Your Honours is the subject of

2 protective measures. She's been granted face distortion and use of a

3 pseudonym.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Are we seeing her? It doesn't appear so.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 [Witness testified by videolink].

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Ms. Edgerton.

13 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'd like to ask the Registry officer beside you to show you a

17 piece of paper; and on that piece of paper, I hope you'll see your name

18 and a witness number, being the number W-32.

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I have the identical pseudonym

21 sheet for display here in the courtroom.

22 Q. Have you been given that piece of paper, Witness?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is the name that you see on the paper in front you your first

25 name and surname?

Page 4483

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. EDGERTON: If we could have that marked, please, as the first

4 exhibit under seal.


6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes P527, under seal.


8 Q. Now, next, Witness, I'd like to ask you in preparing to come to

9 the office to testify today, did you have a chance to review your two

10 previous statements; one to your own authorities and one to the Office of

11 the Prosecutor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, having read those statements, do you have any changes to make

14 to them at all?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And if I was to ask you the same questions as investigators in

17 1995 and 2006 asked you, would your answers be the same as those that you

18 have in those statements?

19 A. Yes, they would be the same.

20 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, then, Your Honours, if could

21 have the statement, ter number 03060 and the further statement, ter number

22 03059, marked as the next exhibits under seal, that would be appreciated.


24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll admit 65 ter number 03060 as

25 P528, under seal; and 65 ter number 03059 as P529, also under seal.

Page 4484

1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

2 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to ask you a couple of questions

3 clarifying some of the things that you spoke about in your earlier

4 statements. The first one is this: (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Is that part of Dobrinja?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, in your statement from 1996, you said that your

11 old house was very close to the confrontation line, and you were

12 constantly afraid of shelling and sniping. Is that why you moved?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us why you decided to go back to your house on the

15 day you were shot?

16 A. I was moving during those days. I hadn't taken all of my things,

17 so I came to get some of the things that were still left behind.

18 Q. Now, to go back to your old house, what route would you normally

19 take?

20 A. I went through cellars.

21 Q. And why was that?

22 Did you hear my question, Witness? Why did you go through cellars

23 to get to your old house?

24 A. Oh, to the apartment. Because there was shooting at ground floor

25 level, so we went through cellars so as to avoid the main entrance.

Page 4485

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Why did you go to the main door instead of going through the

5 cellars?

6 A. Because it was peaceful; there was no shooting.

7 Q. What was the weather like on the day you were shot?

8 A. It was warm. The weather was nice.

9 Q. Was it a cloudy day or a clear day; do you remember?

10 A. As far as I can remember, the weather was nice. It was sunny and

11 I wore light clothes only. As far as I can remember, it was sunny.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Ms. Edgerton, just maybe for my own

13 benefit, how did she go through cellars to get to her house? Are the

14 cellars in an apartment complex, or isn't a cellar specific to a

15 particular house? Maybe she can explain.


17 Q. Did you hear the question of the Judge, Witness?

18 A. It wasn't a house. It was an apartment building, and an apartment

19 in that apartment building. In every apartment building, there is an

20 entrance through which you go into a cellar, or the cellars.

21 Q. Now, were these cellars connected at all?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So can you explain how you would travel from one cellar to the

24 next?

25 A. Every entrance had a cellar of its own, so my entrance had a back

Page 4486

1 entrance into the cellar, and I used that entrance to get in and go

2 upstairs.

3 Q. Is that --

4 MS. EDGERTON: Does that clarify things for Your Honour?


6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Now, as you went -- tell me if you're okay, if you need a break,

14 Witness. But I will be very short now for the rest of the questions.

15 As you went to the front door of your house, do you remember

16 whether there were other civilians in the outside area?

17 A. Yes. There was a woman, and there was a man who was guarding the

18 area, saying that we shouldn't go that way.

19 Q. And why was -- why was he saying that you shouldn't go that way;

20 do you know? What exactly was he saying?

21 A. He was standing there in order for people not to go to the other

22 neighbourhood. There was sniper fire there, and he was warning people not

23 to go there because they could get shot by sniper fire.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4487

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. I don't have any further questions for you,

19 and now the counsel for General Milosevic is going examine you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

21 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 First, regarding the video, I'd like to know whether we are going

23 to see it. This is part of a video that will be offered, I think,

24 eventually as evidence. And personally I will oppose the admission if we

25 haven't seen this video with the witness and if I haven't been given the

Page 4488

1 opportunity of cross-examining the witness about this video.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand. No application has made in

3 respect of a video. What are you opposing?

4 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] This video is part of an exhibit

5 which, if I understood right, will be eventually admitted, once all the

6 videos have been seen. Up until now, we always saw the clip -- video

7 clips with the witnesses and Defence was given the opportunity to

8 cross-examine the witness on the videos that were shown to them.

9 And here the videos obviously are obviously on the list but we're

10 not going to see them. So if I'm not given the opportunity to

11 cross-examine, I'm just forewarning my colleagues on the other side that

12 Defence eventually will oppose the admission of this part of the video

13 that has not been seen. I believe that the video must be seen first.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that's an objection that I would uphold, but

15 let me hear from the Prosecutor.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honour, you haven't heard a request for

17 the tender of this video because it is not my intention to tender the

18 video through this witness but through the investigator who took the video

19 and appears on the video with the witness, investigator Hogan, who will be

20 testifying later in the Prosecution's case.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: But it may very well be that the video should be

22 shown now in the interest of everybody. The accused may have an interest

23 in seeing and asking questions about it.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Well, we can play it here in the courtroom, Your

25 Honour, and we just probably have to communicate with Sarajevo to see if

Page 4489

1 they are in a position to play it for the witness on whatever software

2 they have available to them. But we have it ready to play here in the

3 courtroom for the benefit of the Chamber.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I believe that the counsel for

5 Defence is right in asking this video to be shown to all of us. And this

6 actually is in line with my concern of yesterday when I said that

7 Prosecution must, first and foremost, establish the reality of the

8 incident, the fact that this was an incident, that there was another that

9 was victim actually shot.

10 But the Prosecution must also establish the origin of the shots,

11 and the video here is going to come in -- is going to be very helpful to

12 show us exactly what the environment was, what the circumstances was

13 surrounding this incident.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Ms. Edgerton, we want to see it, and

15 we have to see it. How soon can it be ready, bearing in mind that today

16 we are stopping in a spirit of collegiality at 1.15 to accommodate another

17 Trial Chamber.

18 MS. EDGERTON: It is ready to play in this courtroom now, Your

19 Honours. I will just wait to hear from Mr. Registrar about the ability to

20 play it in Sarajevo.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So I'm being told that the video is already in

24 evidence.

25 May I ask the legal officer, are you sure it's this particular

Page 4490

1 video with this particular incident?

2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Prosecutor, is this video already in evidence?

4 Or the court deputy?

5 MS. EDGERTON: I can only indicate to the best of my information

6 this clip hasn't been specifically tendered. The video as a whole already

7 has an exhibit number.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I could be of

9 help. We've already discussed this because we've already seen a number of

10 clips in this entire bundle of videos, and we were told then that we will

11 be waiting for all witnesses involved in these videos to have been heard

12 before the videos were actually offered for admission.

13 Maybe the -- Ms. Edgerton can help us here.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: But can we get back to the present matter. I'm

15 not a technical person, but would the witness in Sarajevo be able to see

16 this video?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, first of all, according to my

18 records, this particular clip is not already in evidence. A different

19 clip from the same collection of videos is what is in evidence.

20 Secondly, as to whether or not the witness in Sarajevo can see the

21 video, I do believe it is possible, but I suggest that we do a quick test

22 first of all.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed with the quick test.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. EDGERTON: Is it being broadcast, Mr. Registrar.

Page 4491

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, unfortunately that was just broadcast, and

2 we're going to need to redact that portion of the video.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is to be redacted.

4 What is the position, it can or cannot be seen in Sarajevo?

5 MS. EDGERTON: It can be seen in Sarajevo.

6 Perhaps then we could go into private session, and then play the

7 video while the --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's get it right now. We'll go into private

9 session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

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Page 4492

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20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good afternoon, Witness.

24 Witness. I would like you to assist the Chamber in explaining

25 where exactly the -- you believe the shots came from. When you, on the

Page 4493

1 video, pointed in the direction of the fire, what I saw on the video was a

2 two or three-storey white apartment building, which was just across the

3 street, and my question is: Is that the building or the place where you

4 think the shots came from, or did the shots come from a point farther

5 away?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shots came from a place that was

7 further away. There was shooting come from between the houses. There

8 were these houses near the airport, and that is where the gun-fire was

9 coming from.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness.

11 I don't know if we may wish to see the video again. But, do you,

12 Witness, have a rough estimation of the distance to those houses and the

13 place where you stood at the time?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult to say. I didn't go

15 approximate that far. I would say about 100 metres, but I can't say

16 exactly.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Witness.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Can I now tender that video clip as the next

19 exhibit, and it should be under seal.


21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll admit that as P530, under

22 seal.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

24 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

Page 4494

1 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, good afternoon, Witness. My name is

2 Branislava Isailovic. I am a member of the Paris Bar Association, and I

3 am defending Dragomir Milosevic in this case.

4 As the Prosecutor has already told you, I'm about to ask you a few

5 questions about what you have said today and about the content of your

6 statements.

7 First question relating to this video. It seemed to me that you

8 were together with the investigator of the OTP in front of the door of a

9 garage; isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where is this garage located as far as the rest of the building is

12 concerned? Could you enter through here?

13 A. Yes. I passed the garage in order to get into the hallway.

14 (redacted)

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Page 4495

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10 Q. As far as confrontation lines are concerned, those you mentioned -

11 and we shall get back to what you have talked about in your statement -

12 where were the confrontation lines in relation to the houses which are

13 opposite the building which is your building?

14 A. I don't know. This was behind the building. I don't know where

15 exactly. I know where the sniper was firing from, but I don't know where

16 exactly because I didn't go over there.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the

23 registrar who is in Sarajevo, as well as my case manager, to display

24 document 2830 which is on the 65 ter list. This is a document which is on

25 the Defence list, and it's document 1D.

Page 4496

1 Q. Witness, can you see this map?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you able to find your way around on this map?

4 A. I don't think so. No, I'm sorry.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would have liked to

6 tender this map into evidence. Because on the basis of the rest of the

7 evidence, I would like to establish the fact that because this witness

8 does not remember the current name of the street, but on the basis of the

9 rest of the evidence, the Defence will try to establish where on this map

10 the house in question is located.

11 This map also indicates where the confrontation lines are, those

12 that were established by UNPROFOR. This map is part of a series of maps

13 prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor, so may I suggest that this be

14 tendered.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think Judge Harhoff will try with the witness

17 to see whether the witness --

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe I should just leave it to counsel, because I

19 think it feels a bit empty to admit a map without any indication of the

20 witness. So I wonder if the witness, with a little assistance, could

21 perhaps understand the features or could be brought to understand the

22 features of the map, and with some guidance could find the area in which

23 she lived and maybe the street and maybe even the place in the street.

24 The witness seems to be perfectly capable of understanding what is

25 on the map, if, perhaps, she gets a little assistance.

Page 4497

1 So I would like to you try, if possible.

2 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, could you please examine this map and try to get your

4 bearings and find the Dobrinja area.

5 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] We also need the help of somebody

6 in Sarajevo to help us get to understand what the witness is showing us on

7 the map.

8 Q. Can you at least see the Dobrinja area?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you found where Dobrinja is?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you circle the entire area of Dobrinja, please, and then we

13 shall try and locate your building.

14 A. I do it like this, like this, can I?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, please be careful in relation to

16 her giving any evidence that might identify her.

17 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see what the witness

18 has marked on the map, please? So I believe we need to go into private

19 session.

20 MS. EDGERTON: We have no objection going into private session.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

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Page 4498











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25 [Open session]

Page 4504

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

3 you for giving it. You may now leave.

4 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.04 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of April,

9 2007, at 9.00 a.m.