Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5200

1 Thursday, 26 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Today we off to a late start for the second day

7 running. Again, there was in a spirit of collegiality to accommodate the

8 difficulties in another Trial Chamber. It is a second day running that we

9 are late, and I know this has eaten into the time of the Prosecution. I

10 therefore plan tomorrow to begin at 8.30 and to reduce the luncheon

11 interval from one hour to half an hour. In that way, we will make up one

12 hour.

13 Mr. Whiting.

14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, we're extremely grateful for that

15 accommodation and thank you very much.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Mr. Docherty, you were just about to

17 conclude laying the foundation for the -- your application to have this

18 document admitted.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: That's right.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I hope you will spend no more than another

21 five minutes.

22 MR. DOCHERTY: If that.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: If that. Good. Yes. And then we will hear from

24 Mr. Tapuskovic and then we give our ruling.


Page 5201

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examination by Mr. Docherty: [Continued]

3 Q. Mr. Turkovic, good afternoon. Mr. Turkovic --

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. At the end of the day yesterday we had been talking about the

6 spreadsheet, which I believe is on the -- yes, is on the screen. There

7 had been a number of questions about it and where it came from in the

8 police reports. At the end of all that, how accurate a reflection of the

9 data in the underlying police reports is this spreadsheet?

10 A. Among the data stated here, I'd say it is fairly accurate. I did

11 notice, however, some discrepancies in terms of different times.

12 Sometimes times different by some half an hour, but the rest seems to be

13 correct.

14 Q. And so, for example, names and dates and so forth were correct?

15 A. Yes, it is correct.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I tender this exhibit, 65 ter 3124.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear from Mr. Tapuskovic on the question

18 of the admissibility of the spreadsheet.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Robinson, and I

21 would like to thank the Bench as well.

22 I have stated a portion of my arguments yesterday concerning our

23 position that this document shouldn't be admitted as the Prosecutor seeks

24 to do. I will try to explain the rest of our arguments, trying to be as

25 brief as probable.

Page 5202

1 First of all you made a decision as to whether it is possible to

2 hear another witness here, who is a senior police official by the name of

3 Nedzad Vejzagic. That proposition was rejected by the Bench. I do not

4 wish to go into any arguments as to this at this moment. However, there

5 is another attempt now to do the same thing, something that they tried to

6 do via Mr. Kucanin, who headed a part of the investigations and a group of

7 investigators. It is now being tried to be done through another witness

8 pertaining to a part of the indictment, speaking about the long sniping

9 and shelling campaign.

10 I believe there are 218 files pertaining to specific events, and

11 it is now being attempted to introduce all of those through this witness.

12 I have nothing personally against the witness. He came here to speak

13 about his knowledge of two events of the 1st of July and the 23rd of July,

14 1995, and we are most likely to hear what he has to say about that.

15 As for the other events, he has no knowledge of them. It is a

16 voluminous material, each file containing 50 or 60 pages. What he could

17 have been able to see were perhaps the dates and times but that's it about

18 it. If we draw a parallel, you know that in another case, this being the

19 Milutinovic et al, there was decision made on the 18th of April, the Bench

20 handed it down. It had to do with accepting numerous reports about

21 situation of human rights in Kosovo and Metohija. That Bench deemed it

22 important to have firsthand information from the spot provided by an

23 independent body and these were NGOs collecting general information.

24 On the list of documents being tendered, there were specific cases

25 stated with the goal of being used in that case in order to prove one of

Page 5203

1 the key points in the indictment. A key point is conducting a long-term

2 sniping and shelling activity and campaign against the civilian population

3 of Sarajevo. There's another thing I wanted to say which I believe to be

4 a key thing in this case. The position of the OTP that there was a

5 systematic and widespread attack on the civilian population causing a

6 great number of victims and that this was the only thing that was of

7 interest to the SRK, that is to target civilians. This is what they base

8 the entire case on.

9 Through this witness who was supposed to testify on but a few

10 incidents, they are trying to prove the most important point in the

11 indictment, and they were unable to do that so far. They tried to prove

12 certain incidents which may have been characteristics and now they are

13 trying to put this witness forward in order to get some alleged arguments

14 to strengthen their thesis about the existence of such a strategy. It

15 cannot be done through this witness.

16 I believe that this attempt by the Prosecutor -- I believe that

17 this attempt by the Prosecutor to try and prove something of fundamental

18 importance for this case, i.e., this is not merely collecting general

19 information. This is no general data. These are documents that had to be

20 testified on by a team leader, a person such as Kucanin. He was the

21 person who put the reports together, who compiled the documents and he was

22 the only person who could explain things to us. If we try to tender these

23 documents through this witness who knows nothing of any of these events,

24 apart from being able to leaf through the 218 incidents and we will yet, I

25 hope, be able to see how much time he needed to see the general nature of

Page 5204

1 the documents and what he was able to extract from it.

2 With Kucanin, one would have needed eight hours to discuss that.

3 In the given situation in context, I can ask no questions of this witness

4 about this topic since he has no knowledge of that, plus we have been

5 allotted a very short time.

6 Therefore, I would kindly ask you to rule against something which

7 would be fundamentally unfair to the accused.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 The Chamber will give its ruling on this matter. The Prosecution

10 seeks to admit into evidence a spreadsheet made on the basis of a

11 compilation of police reports on a large number of incidents prepared by

12 several police stations in Sarajevo, including the police station in which

13 the present witness was employed as a crime scene technician. The

14 spreadsheet contains information of the exact time and place of the

15 incidents, the weaponry used, the number of victims, and the alleged

16 origin of fire. The purpose of the document, according to the

17 Prosecution, is to substantiate the widespread nature of the attacks

18 against civilian targets in Sarajevo during the indictment period.

19 This document is sought to be admitted through a witness who did

20 not himself draft any of the reports and whose knowledge of the incidents

21 only extended to the limited number of investigations in which he himself

22 was involved. The authenticity of the reports on the remaining incidents

23 was only confirmed, on second-hand, by another police officer, who told

24 the present witness that the reports were authentic and true.

25 The Trial Chamber is reluctant to admit a document through a

Page 5205

1 witness who has little or no direct relation to most of the reports and

2 who is unable to testify to the substantive information contained in the

3 spreadsheet.

4 If admitted, furthermore, the Defence would have no chance of

5 challenging the spreadsheet's information during its cross-examination of

6 the witness, because the witness would be unable to testify to the

7 veracity of most of the substantive information contained in the

8 spreadsheet, let alone to the reliability of most of the underlying police

9 reports.

10 In the Trial Chamber's view, the spreadsheet could only be used

11 for the purpose of showing that there were a great number of incidents

12 involving an even larger number of victims in Sarajevo reported by the

13 police during the indictment period. The defence would be unable to

14 challenge this information through cross-examination, in particular the

15 information on the alleged origin of fire.

16 The Trial Chamber, therefore, will only admit the spreadsheet for

17 the limited purpose of showing the great number of incidents and victims

18 in Sarajevo reported by the police during the indictment period. Beyond

19 this limitation, the probative value of the spreadsheet would be

20 substantially outweighed in the terms of Rule 89 (D) by the need to ensure

21 a fair trial.

22 Cross-examination of the witness by the Defence on the basis of

23 the spreadsheet will therefore be confined to the matter of the number of

24 incidents and victims thereof reported by the police during the indictment

25 period.

Page 5206

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is will go in as P602.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

3 Mr. Docherty.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Turkovic, I want to move on now to a couple of air bomb --

6 modified air bomb investigations which you conducted during your time as a

7 crime scene technician in Ilidza.

8 To begin with, did you conduct an investigation on the 1st of July

9 of 1995?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if I could ask the court officer to call up 65 ter number 114

12 and shortly after that, I will be calling for 65 ter number 115.

13 Mr. Turkovic, at the scene of the air bomb incident on the 1st of

14 July, 1995, did you and your colleagues concern yourselves with how many

15 air bombs had caused the damage at the location where it had fallen?

16 A. Before I respond, could I please see the document first, because I

17 only see the cover page on the screen.

18 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please go to the next page of the

19 document.

20 Q. Does that help you, Mr. Turkovic?

21 A. Yes, thank you.

22 Q. Do you recognise the document that is on the screen?

23 A. Yes, that is the official report.

24 Q. Is this a report of an investigation that you participated in?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5207

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 114.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As P603, Your Honours.


5 Q. And now, Mr. Turkovic, just a few questions before we move to 115.

6 Did you and your colleagues at the scene of this incident concern

7 yourselves with how many air bombs might have been involved?

8 A. Yes. At the beginning of the investigation, we considered a

9 possibility that two air bombs were involved, one of which we thought

10 ended up in the courtyard of one building, and another one on the roof of

11 another house which was close by.

12 Q. At the end of the investigation, what conclusions had you and your

13 colleagues reached as to how many air bombs actually were involved?

14 A. We concluded that it actually involved only one aerial bomb, which

15 in our view, ricochetted twice before landing in the final location.

16 Q. And are you aware of an expert report earlier submitted in this

17 trial in which a Professor Zecevic from the University of Sarajevo

18 disagrees and considers that there were in fact two bombs, as you and your

19 colleagues had first thought?

20 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

21 Q. And what is your view about the possibility of what Mr. Zecevic

22 says being correct?

23 A. I believe it is still a possibility. We made our conclusions

24 based on the very few shrapnel marks and the parts of the bomb as well as

25 rocket boosters found. Or, rather, very little of it was found, much less

Page 5208

1 than one would usually expect to be able to find at the scene of

2 explosion.

3 Q. And when you -- the first sentence of your answer, "I believe it

4 is still a possibility," the "it" in that sentence, is that your and your

5 colleagues' conclusion or Professor Zecevic's conclusion?

6 A. I believe that Mr. Zecevic's conclusion, his expert conclusion is

7 possible that it actually happened as he think it did.

8 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please go on now to 65 ter 115.

9 Q. There on the right-hand side of the screen, Mr. Turkovic, you see

10 a B/C/S document. Do you recognise that document?

11 A. Yes. It is a crime technician report from the site.

12 Q. And who was the crime technician at the site?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. So is this your report?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 115.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As P604, Your Honours.


20 Q. Mr. Turkovic, based -- according to these reports, how -- were

21 there casualties from this air bomb?

22 A. The people listed. The people who were at the scene of impact.

23 The two being Enis Kadic and Kemal Mortuza.

24 Q. Thank you, And finally, at the scene, Mr. Turkovic, did you take

25 photographs?

Page 5209

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could see, please, 65 ter number 02497.

3 Q. And, Mr. Turkovic, just to save a little time I will start asking

4 some questions before the photographs coming up.

5 Before coming to court today, have you looked at the photographs

6 that you took at the scene?

7 A. You mean today or generally?

8 Q. In the last few days.

9 A. Yes, I did. Sorry.

10 Q. On the screen now is the first of those photographs. Is that a

11 photograph that you took?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And there are several additional photographs behind this one. Are

14 the photographs that you took and that have you looked at again in the

15 past few days true, correct depictions of what you saw at the scene of

16 this air bomb explosion or air bomb, plural, explosion on the 1st of July,

17 1995?

18 A. Yes. The photographs I reviewed are my photographs.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I'll tender at this time 65 ter number

20 02497, the photographs taken at the scene.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit them.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As P605, Your Honours.


24 Q. Mr. Turkovic, I want to turn now to an air bomb incident that I

25 believe you investigated on 23rd of July, 1995.

Page 5210

1 MR. DOCHERTY: And could we please see 65 ter number 54.

2 Q. And, again for the witness' benefit, could the B/C/S please turn

3 past the cover page, to the next page. Thank you.

4 Mr. Turkovic, on the screen in front of you on the right-hand side

5 is a document in the Bosnian language. Do you recognise this document?

6 A. Yes, the site sketch.

7 Q. And is this -- I'm sorry, you called this a site sketch.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I guess I'm stopping and being a bit puzzled because I at

10 least don't see a sketch, and on the English side I see a lot of text.

11 What are re looking at on the screen here?

12 A. This is the cover page of the site sketch containing only the

13 basic data from the document.

14 Q. I see. So when you say "site sketch," you mean data and not so

15 much a drawing; is that correct?

16 A. I didn't have the very sketch in mind, at least not only the

17 sketch.

18 Q. All right. In any event, is what is on the screen a report from

19 the police concerning an air bomb incident on 23rd of July, 1995?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it a report of an incident -- a report of an investigation in

22 which you participated yourself?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 54.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

Page 5211

1 THE REGISTRAR: As P606, Your Honours.


3 Q. At the scene of the 23rd of July air bomb incident, did you take

4 photographs?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: And if we could see, please, 65 ter number 02928.

7 Q. And, again, Mr. Turkovic, while the photographs are loading, did

8 you look in the last few days at the photographs you took on the 23rd of

9 July, 1995?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Did you find those photographs to be accurate depictions of what

12 you saw on the scene on that day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On the screen in front of you now is a colour photograph. Do you

15 recognise that as one in the series of photographs which you took?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 02928.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As P607, Your Honours.


21 Q. The last report which I want to ask you about, Mr. Turkovic, is 65

22 ter number 55.

23 There on the right-hand side of the screen you see a document in

24 the Bosnian language. Do you recognise that document?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5212

1 Q. What is that document?

2 A. It is a report on forensic on-site investigation from this

3 particular location.

4 Q. Is this your report?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 55.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As P608, Your Honours.


10 Q. Mr. Turkovic, according to these reports, were there casualties at

11 the scene of the air bomb incident on the 23rd of July, 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you tell us how many casualties and whether they were

14 woundings or fatalities?

15 A. Two women were killed.

16 Q. And then the last couple of questions that I have go back to the

17 spreadsheet that was admitted a couple of minutes ago for a limited

18 purpose. That spreadsheet shows police responses to requests for

19 assistance. From what areas of the city of Sarajevo do those requests for

20 assistance come?

21 A. They came from all parts of Sarajevo.

22 Q. And at what hours of the day to those requests for assistance come

23 in to the police?

24 A. At different times of day.

25 Q. Are there any times of day that reports or requests are not coming

Page 5213

1 in that are blacked out in terms of calls for help?

2 A. No, there are not.

3 Q. And then, lastly, what about as far as what times of the year,

4 what times of the year, what seasons of the year do these calls for help

5 come in to the police?

6 A. All year round, in all seasons.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, that concludes my direct examination.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

9 Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I hope

11 that according to the actual situation during my cross-examination and in

12 view of these reports admitted on the part of the Prosecution, I will be

13 given a little more time, although I am almost sure that I will finish

14 within the slot allotted to me.

15 Mr. Turkovic --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Tapuskovic, bear in mind the limit the

17 purpose for which the spreadsheet was admitted and that in fact we only

18 admitted them for the purpose of showing the number of incidents and

19 victims. The admission did not go any further than that, so you need not

20 concern yourself about the other matters such as origin of fire and the

21 other data set out in the spreadsheet. And the Chamber's ruling confines

22 cross-examination to the two matters of the number of incidents and the

23 victims.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand very well, Your

25 Honour, Judge Robinson, your ruling and the gist of the ruling, and in

Page 5214

1 that respect I'm going to focus myself on a very limited number of

2 questions regarding this document. You can rest assured that I will do

3 so.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Turkovic, I represent the accused Dragomir

6 Milosevic and I would like to ask you a number of questions in order to

7 enable the Chamber to evaluate in a valid way your testimony.

8 In front of me I have document 65 ter 02873. It's already been

9 tendered as Exhibit P600. It was admitted yesterday and this is your

10 statement given on the 10th of March.

11 Now, I will like to ask you a few questions about your statement

12 of the 10th of March.

13 A. Please go ahead.

14 Q. This is the document. According to what is written here, can you

15 confirm that this is your statement?

16 A. Since we see my name, it is probably my statement.

17 Q. And there is your signature?

18 A. I don't see it, but it is possible -- yes, there it is.

19 Q. On page 2, if we can please bring it up, the first sentence -- or,

20 rather, the next one, which reads: "I went to a technical college in

21 Pofalici and at the age of 18 I went into the JNA for my military

22 training."

23 Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. At the time, that is in 1990, because it says here that in

Page 5215

1 December you were in Slovenia, wasn't that the time when the situation was

2 normal? It was a normal obligation of every male citizen?

3 A. Yes. Only I went to the army a little bit earlier of my own

4 volition before I was drafted.

5 Q. So, since the situation was normal, people from Bosnia-Herzegovina

6 did their service in Slovenia. The people from Slovenia did their service

7 in Macedonia, et cetera; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I believe the interpreter will

10 soon be asking you to observe the pause between question and answer.

11 Don't overlap. You have to wait until the interpretation is concluded.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. When you went there and throughout the whole period of your

15 military service, you never felt as a member of an army that was an

16 occupying force in Slovenia?

17 MR. DOCHERTY: I object to the relevance of that question, Your

18 Honour. The case does not concern Slovenia.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what's the relevance of this?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, already in the next

21 sentence the witness mentions the dates 26th or 27th June, 1991, when the

22 conflict broke out there Slovenia and he says: "I was in barracks in Novi

23 Mesto and we were surrounded by Slovenian troops."

24 Everything that subsequently happened in Yugoslavia began in

25 Slovenia on that day. In view of what I just read out to you, Witness,

Page 5216

1 can you say that in the barracks where you were -- and this is the

2 relevance of my question, because the same later happened in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina when barracks were surrounded, the barracks of the JNA.

4 Q. My question is: Were you surrounded, besieged in the barracks,

5 was there any shooting at the barracks and were there any soldiers who

6 died as a result?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please answer the question.

8 A. My barrack was not fired at. There were some shots fired at

9 guards in our area of responsibility and it was coupled with certain

10 things that were happening inside the barracks in terms that certain

11 officers turned into some strange creatures. They started singing Chetnik

12 songs and things like that.

13 Q. And while they were singing Chetnik songs, you were under siege

14 and your life was threatened?

15 A. Our lives were never threatened in the barracks. As I said, most

16 shots were fired at outposts where there were soldiers on guard duty.

17 Q. Very well. As we can see from this very short sentence you

18 say: "We were then withdrawn to Serbia."

19 Is that correct?

20 A. That happened a few months later.

21 Q. Therefore, you were not sent to any strategic positions around

22 Sarajevo, but the army, rather, withdraw, heading for Serbia; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's correct, as far as my unit was concerned. The army

25 withdrew either to Bosnia-Herzegovina or to Serbia.

Page 5217

1 Q. Was it physically possible otherwise then to withdraw the army

2 along these two routes? It couldn't fly over Bosnia-Herzegovina in order

3 to reach other parts of the country. Is that correct?

4 A. What I want to say, that the ultimate destination of these units

5 was either Serbia or Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. And then you say: "I returned to Sarajevo," and you left the

7 army? Is that correct?

8 A. That's correct. I went to see my father who had a surgery and I

9 spent the four days of my leave that had been granted to me in Sarajevo

10 and I never went back.

11 Q. In the next paragraph you speak about you living in Dobrinja.

12 After that, you moved to Alipasino Polje and then you joined the military

13 police. When did that happen? Whose military police?

14 A. It was in the summer of 1992. To tell you the truth, I don't know

15 exactly when that happened. It was the military police of the BH army.

16 Q. As I can see here, you remained in the police until February,

17 1993. Can you describe for me your duties as a military policeman. What

18 were you involved in?

19 A. I was just an ordinary military policeman.

20 Q. Then you say: "In February, 1993, I went on a course for criminal

21 technicians which was organised by the Ministry of the Interior."

22 Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. And this lasted until June of that year; is that correct?

25 A. It lasted six months, probably until June.

Page 5218

1 Q. This course involved certain skills and knowledge relating to

2 police work involved in public security duties; is that correct?

3 A. It was a specific course intended for crime scene technicians.

4 Q. For ordinary crimes like threats, violent crimes and other crimes

5 of that nature?

6 A. Yes, including -- including fires, explosions and similar

7 occurrences.

8 Q. So among the subjects that you studied, there was a photography

9 course as well, is that correct, examination of the crime scene,

10 examination of fingerprints, et cetera. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Mainly general things relating to traditional crimes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you say that you had some partial study of ballistics and

15 fire-arms. Yes or no?

16 A. I'm waiting for the interpretation.

17 Yes, there was a subject that dealt with these areas.

18 Q. After that, you resumed your duties in the military police; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And you became an investigator of all crimes relating to the army;

22 is that correct? Like black marketeering, property crimes, drug smuggling

23 et cetera?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Now you say: "In December, 1993 I left the military police and

Page 5219

1 joined the civilian police."

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Then you went on to say: "I worked as a street police officer for

5 a year and then I was transferred to the centre of public security."

6 Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it fair to say, if your answer is affirmative, that if in

9 December, 1993 you joined the civilian police and worked as a street

10 police officer, that since a year later you moved to the Security Services

11 Centre, you became involved in crime scene investigations in December,

12 1994?

13 A. Precisely so. I don't know whether the month is correct, but it

14 was in 1994.

15 Q. Thank you. And then we see that you -- that your responsibility

16 for -- was for municipality of Ilidza and you worked on all kinds of

17 crimes. How long were you involved in the general crime investigations

18 after December, 1994, because this is what you say here, that you dealt

19 with general crime involving civilians, and I presume by that you mean the

20 citizens of Sarajevo?

21 A. Whenever there was an on-site investigation of a crime, whether it

22 was something relating to war or general crime, and a crime scene

23 investigator was required on the scene, in Ilidza I was in charge.

24 Q. Does that mean that for a number of months in 1995 you were most

25 times involved in this type of civilian crimes?

Page 5220

1 A. This is not what I said.

2 Q. You say here after you came to work in December: "My area of

3 responsibility was the municipality of Ilidza and I worked all kinds of

4 crimes there. Some of the crime related to general crime involving

5 civilians."

6 Was this predominantly your job at the time?

7 A. During the war, this was not the focus. I predominantly had to do

8 with shell incidents.

9 Q. Until end 1994, as we've discussed, you were not with the CSB and

10 you never mentioned in your statement that you had anything to do with

11 shelling?

12 A. You asked me whether in 1995 for a number of months I

13 predominantly had to investigate ordinary crimes. I said no. I said that

14 I usually dealt with shelling incidents.

15 Q. But a moment ago you said that until the end of 1994 you mainly

16 worked on civilian crime and then moved to the CSB; is that correct?

17 A. I will wait for the interpreters.

18 I said I was a beat policeman or a patrolman, whatever the term

19 was that you used, until I don't know exactly what month in 1994, but that

20 is not of the essence. What is is that from that moment on I was a crime

21 scene technician in the municipality of Ilidza, and from that moment on,

22 most of the incidents I investigated had to do with shelling.

23 Q. I will have to ask you something again, something to explain to

24 me. Until December, 1993 you worked where you told us did. For a year

25 you were a beat policeman. I asked you about December, 1994 and I told

Page 5221

1 you -- I put to you that you started working on other tasks as of that

2 month.

3 A. I am telling you that in 1994 I started working as a crime scene

4 technician. I don't know of what month exactly. Everything else is as

5 stated.

6 Q. A few questions about the document admitted by the Bench with its

7 limited scope.

8 If we forget about the first incident in May, 1995, could you

9 please go to -- I don't know what the number was that was assigned to this

10 document. It is the list or the spreadsheet 605? No. P602, 602.

11 Let us have a look at a few pages at the beginning of the

12 document. If we look at the dates -- let's forget about May, the first

13 date. But look at -- what you have here is August as the second

14 incident. Isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then September, 1994. Then again September, 1994, all the way to

17 the bottom of the page. On page 2, or, rather, the next page, it's all

18 September, 1994.

19 We can go to page 3. November, 1994.

20 And then the page after that. December, 1994.

21 The last is at page 5. The 27th of December, 1994.

22 Is that correct? That was page 5.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. First you said that you started working on these tasks in

25 December. Let's say the end of that year. As for the incidents before

Page 5222

1 that, throughout 1994, you knew nothing about that by way of information

2 working as a policeman, since you were in the police as a patrolman?

3 A. That is correct. Perhaps I could add something. What I did was

4 confirm that these documents seemed authentic. This is the type of

5 documents that I would conclude came from the police. The rest, it's not

6 something for me to say. I don't know whether these things actually

7 happened.

8 Q. If we look at the last two items, the 26th of February and then

9 the 4th of March on page 5. On page 6, the 5th of March, the 12th of

10 March. In total, there are four incidents which took place in these

11 entire five months. Can -- is it fair to put it that way?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Everything else to the end is May, June, July, August,

14 September -- well, let's say we go as far as August.

15 It continues until the 30th of August and that was the period of

16 most of the incidents. That is on page 21.

17 A. I suppose so. What I see here is page 7.

18 Q. Let us go to page 21, please.

19 In any case, can you confirm -- well, I won't go into percentages,

20 but between May and August, the 28th or the 30th of August, according to

21 this document, and provided you leafed through it, and you said you did,

22 there were 80 per cent of all the incidents more or less. Don't hold me

23 to the exact percentage.

24 A. Well, don't ask me to do any statistics on the spot. So if you

25 say so, I'll take your word for it. I hope you did your math.

Page 5223

1 Q. Thank you. Now we can go back to your statement, since I have no

2 further questions as to the spreadsheet.

3 You continue with your statement by saying that you investigated

4 shellings. In 1994, you didn't have to do anything about any sniping

5 incidents and have you no knowledge of such incidents, do you? As a

6 policeman, I mean.

7 A. I don't remember whether I had any on-site investigations

8 concerning sniping. As a civilian I did encounter such incidents, but as

9 a policeman, I cannot really recall, pertaining to the period you

10 mentioned, that is.

11 Q. In the last sentence on page 2, you mention a sniping and you say

12 the following: "I also attended one incident when a civilian was shot

13 by -- from a sniper."

14 It was the only sniping incident that you participated in or

15 attended between 1994 and the end of the war as a crime scene inspector?

16 A. Since Ilidza was not exposed to much sniping, since it was closer

17 to the centre, as opposed to some other parts of Sarajevo, I didn't

18 encounter such incidents frequently. Some of my colleagues who worked in

19 other parts of the city did encounter them on a more frequent basis. I'm

20 not saying that there were none in my part of the city, but far less than

21 in other parts.

22 Q. Very well. Let us move on. We have to speed things up.

23 You did those investigations and you said: "My job was to find

24 out with where it came from to examine the traces and come to a

25 conclusion."

Page 5224

1 Is that correct?

2 A. My job was to find traces or marks at the scene, to mark them, and

3 if there is any physical evidence, they had to be sent for further expert

4 analysis, and it was up to me to write a report on the traces and marks

5 found.

6 Q. Can we say that your ballistic expertise was very modest at the

7 time?

8 A. If there was a need for any ballistic expert opinion, we sent

9 sketches with the position of marks, photographs or -- and descriptions

10 and we would send those to ballistic experts. We didn't go into any such

11 detail as to study ballistic traces, which could eventually or potentially

12 be used as evidence. We only provided a preliminary crime scene

13 technician's opinion, which would then be sent for further processing.

14 Q. When the war broke out, you said -- no. When you went to the army

15 you were 18, and by the end of 1993, if I may say so, you were only 21?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. If we go the next page, page 3, and in the English it is at the

18 end of page 2 and the top of page 3, the last sentence. You mainly had to

19 do with photography as a member of that team. You were in charge of the

20 camera?

21 A. Not mainly. It was one of my duties. If there was anyone taking

22 photographs, in 99 per cent of the cases, it was me, though.

23 Q. Thank you. In the last sentence at page 3, the first paragraph,

24 you say: "Sometimes I had to go to the morgue to photograph corpses."

25 Is that correct?

Page 5225

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. In the cases that you testified to today during the

3 examination-in-chief and pertaining to the events of the 1st and the 23rd

4 of July, in neither of the cases you didn't photograph any victims at the

5 location, and here I particularly have in mind the 23rd of July. Those

6 two women were not on the spot, were they?

7 A. Something will have to jog my memory, because I think the on-site

8 investigation was carried out a few hours after the incident, not

9 immediately after but a few hours later, and it wasn't realistic to expect

10 that the corpses would be there. I believe you are correct in saying

11 that, yes.

12 Q. If you went through all of the documents, as you said, concerning

13 the spreadsheet that was admitted, did you in any incident see any

14 photographs of bodies taken at the spot? If there were fatalities, did

15 you see a single corpse, was it photographed on the spot?

16 A. I don't remember any such cases. One wouldn't reasonably expect

17 that. Most of these people were immediately transported to hospitals,

18 trying to save their lives.

19 Q. Of course, that is reasonable to expect and no crime technician

20 would do otherwise. But what such cases -- what happened in such cases

21 when people were obviously dead?

22 A. I cannot recall a single incident in which a person wasn't being

23 helped or people tried to help. They would first take that person to the

24 nearest medical facility to see whether the person was dead indeed or

25 whether there was any chance to resuscitate them. I'm not telling you

Page 5226

1 that there were no incidents of people being killed on the spot, but I

2 simply cannot recall a single one.

3 Q. As a crime scene inspector, wouldn't you say that that would be

4 one of the basic tasks of such an inspector, to try and establish the

5 existence of fatalities. One doesn't need a medical doctor for that. If

6 you find a corpse, don't you take photographs first as one of the basic

7 tenants of the profession, of ballistics in general, of the science as

8 such?

9 A. I'm waiting for the interpreter.

10 This would not be an everyday or routine task. Quite often, the

11 spot was still being shelled when we arrived. Therefore, we would be

12 called by neighbours and they would be the first people to get there, they

13 would be the people transporting the victims to the nearest medical

14 facility. It wouldn't be a regular call when someone would say, well,

15 there was a homicide and then the police would be the first to get there.

16 But first people would try to save victims' lives. It was a wartime

17 situation. It wasn't primary to bring the police to the scene but to try

18 and save lives.

19 Q. I won't dwell on it any further. I understand that, of course,

20 you tried to help a person that was hurt. But in cases when it was clear

21 that someone had been killed, was it necessary to expose your own lives to

22 danger to try and pull out a corpse, putting it before the interests of an

23 investigation, which would be better off with the corpse being left on the

24 spot?

25 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour.

Page 5227

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, mister --

2 MR. DOCHERTY: The witness has already testified that he

3 personally was never at the scene of an incident where a person was so

4 obviously deceased that they could forgo taking the person for medical

5 assistance. So the question just put to the witness implicitly misstates

6 the evidence that the witness has just given.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, I agree. Move on to another

8 question.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now you talk about bombs that landed and that you investigated.

11 In order to save time, I would like first to move on to incident

12 of the 1st of July, 1995.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have brought up

14 Prosecution evidence -- Exhibit P603. Page 2 of the official report.

15 Q. In paragraph 2 you can read that you received a report, and a

16 while ago you confirmed that you are aware of this report and that you

17 worked on it. You didn't sign it though?

18 A. I worked on this report. Actually, I was involved in this

19 investigation.

20 Q. You didn't visit the scene on that day, that is, on the 1st of

21 July, but in fact you only went there on the 2nd of July. This is what is

22 written in the document.

23 A. Yes. I can see that.

24 Q. But towards the end of paragraph 2 you say: "On the 1st of July,

25 the criminal investigation police inspectors received certain information

Page 5228

1 from the head nurse of the hospital in Hrasnica."

2 Is that correct? That certain individuals sustained serious or

3 light injuries?

4 A. You said that, you say here. I would just like to point out that

5 this is it not my report, but I can confirm that it's written in the

6 report as you have just read.

7 Q. There's only mention of one person sustaining serious injuries and

8 remained in the hospital. Is that correct? Because this is what the

9 report says.

10 A. I cannot find that particular section, but if you read it, then I

11 believe that is what it says.

12 Q. I'm talking about the witness of the last name Kadic.

13 We don't have the supporting medical files, but it doesn't say

14 here how this person sustained these injuries, what caused the injuries.

15 Were the injuries caused by debris or by shrapnel?

16 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

17 Q. Now, if we turn to page 3, and here is a list of people who

18 sustained light injuries.

19 And then the next page. Page 3 in English.

20 Here you can see the list of names, seven or eight, all of them

21 were lightly injured. But there is no description of the nature of the

22 injuries and the cause of the injuries, whether it was from debris or from

23 shrapnel?

24 A. Yes, very well.

25 Q. Yes or no?

Page 5229

1 A. I don't know what was the cause. I'm just confirming what you

2 have read.

3 Q. If we go on, on the same page we can see that on -- you visited

4 the scene on the 2nd of July at 8.00 and that you were among members of

5 the team; is that correct? It says Vekaz Turkovic.

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. I'm not going to read all of it. It says here that you have seen

8 a crater, and in the ground as well, in the close proximity, a few pieces

9 of shrapnel were detected. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at the

12 next page, which is page 4 in English. I am not going to read the whole

13 text to you. There is mention of damage to houses and the huge damage

14 caused. However, there is no mention of a single piece of shrapnel found

15 in any of those houses. You can read it for yourself, if you wish.

16 A. All I can see here is the finding of rocket engines. I don't see

17 any mention of shell fragments.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, there is a mention of shell fragments at the

19 end of the first paragraph. It says: "Shell fragments were removed from

20 the site."

21 Do you see that, Mr. Tapuskovic?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what

23 the translation says. Except rocket engines that have been found, there

24 is no mention of any pieces of shrapnel being recovered. The only pieces

25 found were in the ground. There is no mention here of shrapnel. The only

Page 5230

1 mentioned here is what Mr. Turkovic himself has found, and that is that

2 rockets' engines were recovered and it is clearly stated in the B/C/S

3 version. I allowed the witness to read it.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would not shell fragments qualify as shrapnel?

5 Because the text which is in English has a reference to shell fragments.

6 I brought that to your attention earlier. The last sentence at the end of

7 the first paragraph: "Shell fragments were removed from the site."

8 JUDGE MINDUA: Maybe we should request the translator,

9 interpreters to read the text in the B/C/S and to tell us.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would the interpreters please do that.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There is not a single pieces of

12 shrapnel and the witness confirmed that there is only rocket engine, there

13 is no shrapnel, absolutely not a single one. What I read earlier, some

14 shrapnel were found in the hole where the crater was.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I asked the interpreters to do

16 something. Why did you interrupt?

17 Would the interpreters -- would you please bring the page back up.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The last part of the sentence of the second

19 paragraph on page -- I don't know which page in B/C/S. It's on the screen

20 now -- reads as follows literally: "Whereas parts or pieces of the

21 aforementioned projectile were recovered on the scene."

22 JUDGE MINDUA: Maybe we can start here, the UN --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, would --

24 Would you start from the sentence beginning: "The UN Military

25 Observers."

Page 5231

1 It's just the sentence before the last one which the interpreter

2 just translated.

3 THE INTERPRETER: In front of the house owned by Hamdija Kadic and

4 in the presence of UN military observers, Frank Melum of Norway and

5 Brurmijn of the Netherlands, criminal investigation inspection of the

6 damaged vehicles were carried out, which -- damaged UN vehicles were

7 carried out which sustained total damage. The vehicle in question were

8 Toyota, registration plate number UN, illegible, 6351 and Toyota,

9 registration plate UN PP 15927. The scene and all the recovered physical

10 evidence were fixed by means of measurement, photography, whereas parts of

11 the aforementioned projectile were recovered from the scene."

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The English text had "shell fragments." Now we

14 have "parts of the projectile."

15 But move on, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to make this clearer--

17 Q. When you continued on the following day the other location because

18 there was mention there of one or two shell, and it's a continuation of

19 this same document, you speak about the damage. You also speak about

20 pieces of rocket engines that were found and at the end, and that is why I

21 am insisting on this. Before the last sentence it says that: "All the

22 aforementioned traces were secured, i.e., measured and photographed.

23 Parts of the rocket engine were removed from the site."

24 Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5232

1 Q. Here in the second part of your investigation, you didn't find--

2 find a single piece of shrapnel.

3 A. I will try to explain. Since in a situation like this, there's

4 normally a few thousand pieces of shrapnel, we did not mark every single

5 trace or piece of physical evidence, as would be the standard police

6 procedure. Instead, we only took such number of pieces that would be

7 sufficient for the purpose, and that is what we collected in order to

8 facilitate a subsequent examination of the type of the weapon, because it

9 was simply impossible to retrieve all the pieces.

10 Q. Sir, I showed you what is clearly written on page 2, and it says

11 that in the close proximity of the crater you found several pieces of

12 shrapnel of different sizes and shapes, and you never again mentioned any

13 shrapnel. I'm not expecting you to collect thousands of pieces of

14 shrapnel. You didn't mention a single piece of shrapnel in these houses.

15 You just say that these houses were mentioned. How do you explain that --

16 damaged?

17 Why didn't you collect also pieces of shrapnel from the location

18 that sustained such heavy damage?

19 A. I can only repeat what I said before. Standard procedure at the

20 time was to find at least one piece of shrapnel in order to serve as a

21 basis for determining the type of the weapon. The physical evidence that

22 you are referring to, we didn't believe to be necessary. We didn't think

23 it was necessary to collect them, because we -- in each incident we had an

24 enormous amount of physical evidence, and we followed the instructions

25 that we received, and that is to retrieve at least one piece of shrapnel,

Page 5233

1 which would serve as a basis for establishing the type of the weapons.

2 Q. This is not in your pictures at all. However, I'm going to move

3 on to another incident where we have the same situation. It happened on

4 the 23rd of July, 1995.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And if we can please have Exhibit

6 P 608 displayed on the screen. It's 65 ter P 608, it's another report.

7 Q. In this report, if you look at it, there is not a single mention

8 of any shrapnel. You also describe huge damage inflicted on the houses

9 and you say --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please indicate the paragraph

11 that is he reading from.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the interpreter is asking that

13 you indicate the paragraph that are you now reading from.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's approximately a little bit

15 below the middle of page 1 where Bijelasnicka number 44 street is

16 mentioned. "Where Hasa Rastoder's family house is located, on the top

17 floor of the house in the children's room parts of the missile's rocket

18 motor were found."

19 And then on the next page, Witness, it says under item

20 6: "Physical evidence recovered." Item 6 reads literally as follows

21 under (a): "Parts of the rocket motors of the missile were found on the

22 first floor of the house in Bijelasnicka street number 44. They were

23 described, photographed and sketched and sent for expert analysis."

24 Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 5234

1 Q. You mentioned there that photographs were taken, sketches were

2 made, but there's not a single mention of a single piece of shrapnel that

3 could have been taken for expert analysis so as to try and establish what

4 the type of projectile was. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: At this stage we'll take the break. 20 minutes.

7 --- Recess taken at 4.32 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.54 p.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no reason to

11 take up any more of your time, and I would like to thank Mr. Turkovic. I

12 have no further questions. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no re-examination, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Witness, that concludes your evidence. We

16 thank you for giving it. You may now leave.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And the next witness is ...

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, the next witness will be taken by

21 Ms. Edgerton. And may I be excused?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, certainly.

23 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

Page 5235

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

5 You may begin, Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

8 MS. EDGERTON: And I'll begin by going through Mr. Bell's

9 curriculum vitae, and I have spoken to my learned friend in this regard.

10 I will be leading him through his curriculum vitae in the interest of

11 time.

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bell.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Now, you have been employed with the BBC from 1962 to 1997, I

15 understand; is that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And in that capacity, you have worked largely as a foreign affairs

18 war correspondent?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Since what time?

21 A. Since 1966, really.

22 Q. And during the course of those 29, 31 years, you have reported

23 from, I understand, approximately 90 countries and 11 wars or revolutions;

24 is that correct?

25 A. The number has since gone up to 100 countries and 15 war zones.

Page 5236

1 Q. And among the conflicts you reported from, we can include the

2 Vietnam war in 1968 and 1972; the Arab/Israeli war; Angola in 1976;

3 Rhodesia in 1972; El Salvador in 1983 to 1985; The Gulf War in 1991; as

4 well as events in Croatia that same year. Is my list accurate, Mr. Bell?

5 A. Not comprehensive, but it's accurate.

6 Q. Thank you. And from events in Croatia in 1991, am I correct in my

7 understanding that you moved to cover the conflict in Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes, that is true.

10 Q. And you reported on events in Bosnia from the outbreak of war in

11 1992 to the Dayton agreement?

12 A. And the implementation of the Dayton agreement.

13 Q. Following your departure from the BBC in 1997 you entered

14 politics, I understand, and eventually became the first elected

15 independent member of the British parliament since 1951.

16 A. That is --

17 Q. Is that correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. In 2001 you were appointed UK ambassador for UNICEF for

20 humanitarian emergencies, and in that capacity I understand you visited a

21 number of humanitarian and natural disaster scenes; is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Including Tajekestan in 2001, Malawi in 2002, Iraq in 2003, Darfur

24 the following year, Sri Lanka in 2005, and in 2006 the Congo, Afghanistan

25 and Kabul; is that correct?

Page 5237

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. You've written three books, one of which In Harm's Way, I

3 understand touched upon your experiences during the conflict in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, including events in Sarajevo. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. That book was mostly about the war in Bosnian.

6 Q. Have you recently returned to Sarajevo, Mr. Bell?

7 A. Yes. In the unlikely capacity as a travel writer. I went on the

8 first British Airways direct flight from London to Sarajevo and wrote

9 about it and about the country, which I love, with great enthusiasm for

10 the London Daily Telegraph.

11 Q. And when was that most recent visit?

12 A. That was at the end the March, just a month ago.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, if I could take you back for the rest of your

14 testimony to the period between 1992 and 1995, I'd like to ask you, during

15 your assignments in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where did you report from?

16 A. I reported initially from a base in the Hotel -- when I started,

17 it was the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo. When the war began we moved to the

18 Hotel Serbia in Ilidza. We went back to the Holiday Inn. We moved out to

19 Central Bosnia to report the side war between Muslims and Croats from

20 mostly from Vitez and Gornji Vakuf. I also travelled extensively

21 throughout the country, including Mostar, Dubrovnik and -- Mostar and

22 Tuzla.

23 Q. Did your reports from Bosnia and Herzegovina include events in

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes. I would say that over the three and a half years probably

Page 5238

1 more than half of my reports were about events in and immediately around

2 Sarajevo.

3 Q. You mentioned that for various periods of time of you were based

4 at the Holiday Inn. Could you tell us, was the Holiday Inn exposed to

5 Bosnian-Serb lines?

6 A. Yes, it was very much a front line hotel. It was, I guess, within

7 a couple of hundred metres of the front line for the three and a half

8 years of the war.

9 Q. Was it targeted?

10 A. Yes. The south side of the Hotel was not demolished but badly

11 damaged by shell fire, cannon fire and mortar fire, so that it was

12 uninhabitable.

13 Q. Now, how early did you actually begin reporting from Sarajevo

14 after hostilities broke out?

15 A. I started reporting before hostilities broke out in the referendum

16 in March 1992 and after the start of hostilities, and the war was slow to

17 start for reasons we understand. I was there, I suppose, within two days.

18 I must have arrived about maybe the 7th or 8th of April, 1992.

19 Q. Now, throughout your time in Sarajevo, did you notice any features

20 of the military activity in and around the city that were unique to that

21 conflict?

22 A. Yes. I would say that all of the conflicts I have reported, this

23 was the only one conducted continuously and intensively in a modern

24 industrial city and in an urban environment. And of all of the conflicts

25 I have reported, I would say there was the least distinction between

Page 5239

1 soldiers and civilians when it came to targeting.

2 Q. So based on what you've just said, then, let me ask you this: Did

3 you observe targeting of civilians in Bosnian and Muslim-held Sarajevo?

4 A. I observed the casualties that occurred among civilians in the --

5 in the Bosnian government-held side of the city and which I feel would not

6 have happened if there had been any distinction made between military and

7 civilian casualties, but I also believe that civilians were targeted on

8 the Serb side of the lines.

9 Q. And we'll explore several aspects of what you said, but perhaps I

10 could first of all pinpoint your observation in time. From what point in

11 time did you observe that casualties occurred among civilians in the

12 Bosnian government-held side of the city?

13 A. I would say not immediately, not in the very first few days. The

14 first few days were very confusing days of street fighting between armies

15 and militias and even gangs in which the two sides were trying to

16 establish control in contested territory. But once the lines had

17 solidified, and I would put that around mid-May 1992, it soon became

18 apparent that the greater number of casualties were civilians.

19 Q. Did you make any observations as to the cause of the greatest

20 number of -- of that number of casualties, of the civilian casualties?

21 A. Yes. At that phase of the war they were casualties mostly to

22 small arms and sniper fire, to shell fire, to mortars. I had a friend who

23 lived in the old city whose husband was killed in the earlier days of the

24 war by a mortar fired into their house in an old caravanserai near the

25 river.

Page 5240

1 Q. Did this phenomenon of the firing of sniper fire and shell fire,

2 mortar fire into the cities, into Sarajevo, continue as the war went on?

3 A. Yes. It was a feature of the entire war, not at a constant

4 level. It came and went. There tended to be a quieter period around

5 mid-winter. Summer was always the worst, and the periods of the most

6 intensive fighting and the highest casualties were the summers of 1992 and

7 1995.

8 Q. Now, did the character of these attacks you have been describing

9 change in any regard as the war went on?

10 A. Yes. There were different weapons among the weapons employed

11 towards the end of the war. In the summer of 1995, there were serious

12 attempts by the government forces both to break the siege from the inside

13 and break the siege from the outside. That is to say, there was also --

14 as well as the attacks on civilians, there was a conflict going on between

15 two armed forces.

16 Q. Now, you have mentioned there were different weapons among the

17 weapons employed towards the end of the war. I'd like to ask you about

18 that. What kind of weapons?

19 A. The three that we noted that were new, there was a use of a

20 wire-guided missile. There was a use of aircraft bombs rocket propelled

21 into the city of -- of Sarajevo, and on one occasion there was phosphorus.

22 Q. And what's your knowledge of who employed or which faction

23 employed these weapons?

24 A. There was from the start an asymmetry in the forces, that is that

25 the government side had a superiority in sheer manpower but the Bosnian

Page 5241

1 Serb side had a dominance in fire-power, and these new weapons were fired,

2 so far as we could tell, from the Serb side.

3 Q. I would like to move now to another component of -- or another

4 theme in your testimony in chief and ask you some questions about sniping,

5 which you've already referred to. Do you recall any particularly

6 dangerous areas of the city of Sarajevo in terms of civilian casualties?

7 And in this case I'm referring to Bosnian -- Muslim or Bosnian

8 government-held territory.

9 A. Yes. There were -- because it attempted to be a functioning city,

10 people mostly lived on the west side, and insofar as they had jobs, they

11 worked on the -- in the centre, there were two areas which were -- that

12 were particularly vulnerable. One was what we called "Snipers Alley" near

13 the city hall, and the other was the area outside the Holiday Inn roughly

14 between the Holiday Inn and the museum.

15 Q. Perhaps now I could ask Ms. Bosnjakovic to play clip 1 from the

16 compilation of videos we've prepared for this occasion. And hopefully

17 you'll see it on the screen in front of you in a few seconds, Mr. Bell,

18 and I'll ask you, based on the answers you've just given to have a look at

19 this clip, and I will have some further questions for you.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. Mr. Bell, do you recognise on the screen in front of you the

23 location as being either of the two vulnerable locations you've just

24 referred to?

25 A. Yes. Most, if not all of these pictures appear to come from the

Page 5242

1 first of the two locations to which I referred.

2 Q. And do they bear any resemblance to how you recall those

3 intersections in the early stages of the war?

4 A. If there is a difference, you can see in the last sequence one of

5 the containers which were put in place to try and protect the people from

6 the snipers.

7 Q. Now, these last clips showed an area that you've spoke about near

8 the city centre. And I'd like to know, did you have occasion to observe

9 sniping activities in the Bosnian government-held areas in the western

10 part of the city of Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes, I did. I occasionally and at some risk visited Dobrinja, and

12 I -- and Mojmilo, and there was -- it was not as if the casualties were

13 confined to just these two places. There were very few places except

14 inside the tunnels and the cave down by the Miljacka river which I would

15 say were entirely safe.

16 Q. In the areas in the western part of the city then, did you ever

17 make observations as to whether sniping or shelling affected conditions of

18 life for the civilians there?

19 A. Well, of course they did. You couldn't get into Dobrinja except at

20 risk to your life, because the -- the road in was often under fire. And I

21 remember once in January, 1993 David Owen, the negotiator, driving in with

22 his motorcade and right past the body of a young women who had been killed

23 that night. She had blood on her face, and there was no safe place in

24 that city at that time.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask, then, Ms. Bosnjakovic to play clip 2

Page 5243

1 of the video compilation.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Are you in a position to comment, Mr. Bell, on the image of the

5 man climbing out of a window that you've seen in front of you?

6 A. Yes. In many places in Bosnia, not only in Sarajevo, the

7 civilians established sort of rat runs where they could get from one place

8 to another -- place to another, trying to avoid what happened there,

9 because usually it was un -- or often it was unsafe to go out of your

10 front door. That apply to the Holiday Inn as well.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Before I move on now to another area, I would ask

12 that the two first clips be admitted as exhibits, please, separately.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit them.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Edgerton, could you please tell

15 me when this video was made. Do you have the date of this video?

16 MS. EDGERTON: The second video, Your Honours, or the first one.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] No. Both, actually.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, both videos date from different

19 periods of time because they represent a compilation, but no later than

20 1993.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these will be admitted as P609 and

22 P610.


24 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, with respect to these two videos which you've noted

25 depicted conditions as you saw them in the early parts of the war, to your

Page 5244

1 knowledge and based on observations, are you able to tell us whether these

2 same conditions existed through 1994 and 1995?

3 A. I was not there in the whole of 1994. I was there for most of

4 1995. I would say that the -- the level of sniper fire and general peril

5 rose and fell. It wasn't constant for three and a half years. The summer

6 of 1992 and 1995 were the worst. It abated considerably and for a while

7 almost to nothing after the cease-fire negotiated by former President

8 Jimmy Carter in December 19 -- Christmas cease-fire, Christmas, 1994, but

9 came back up again about March of 1995.

10 Q. Thank you. Now that we've moved on, actually, to 1994, I'd like

11 to ask you whether you're aware of the anti-sniping agreement which was

12 executed in August of that year.

13 A. Yes, yes, yes, I am. But I think it followed a particularly

14 dreadful incident in which a 11-year-old girl was killed by a shot that

15 ricochetted off the street. And it was -- for some reason the scene was

16 near one of the army headquarters and the camera man had gone there to

17 apply to get permission for something when it happened, so there was very

18 vivid and distressing coverage.

19 Q. Do you recall where that 11-year-old girl might have fallen

20 victim? Was it in Bosnian government-held territory or Bosnian

21 Serb-controlled territory?

22 A. It was in Bosnian government-held territory, very close to the

23 office of the army corps that controlled Sarajevo.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask, then, Mr. Registrar, that the document

25 bearing the 65 ter number 1956 be displayed on the screen.

Page 5245

1 Q. Do you have it on the screen in front of you, Mr. Bell?

2 A. I've only got what looks like a title, 17 patrol reports, general

3 incidents. I don't have the body of the document.

4 Q. Could I ask you --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't even have that.

6 MS. EDGERTON: I don't either, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Well, we'll keep trying.

8 MS. EDGERTON: I see it now, Your Honours.

9 Q. Do you have it on the screen in front of you?

10 A. I only have the heading of the document.

11 MS. EDGERTON: I'd ask Mr. Registrar to move --

12 A. Now -- now --

13 MS. EDGERTON: -- to page 2. Thank you.

14 A. Now I have the document.


16 Q. Mr. Bell, I'd ask you to have a look at this document and the

17 details of the sniping incident dated 11 August 1994 contained therein,

18 and ask you whether that appears, to your knowledge, to be a report on the

19 incident you've just described?

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that entered as the next exhibit,

22 please, Your Honours.


24 THE REGISTRAR: As P611, Your Honours.

25 MS. EDGERTON: And, I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar, were you able to

Page 5246

1 give numbers to the first two video clips.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The first video was P609 and the second

3 video was P610.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. And my apologies.

5 Q. Now, you've mentioned that following -- you've mentioned that

6 sniping abated following a cease-fire in December 1994 but went on to

7 increase after that. So perhaps I could ask you this, Mr. Bell: Into

8 1995, what was the safety and security situation in Bosnian

9 government-held territory, in your observation, in terms of sniping?

10 Let's say, in fact, in that period prior to the signing of the cease-fire

11 agreement from November 1994 into early 1995.

12 A. It was still precarious and remained precarious but not as bad as

13 it had been in the summer of 1992 or as it later became following March of

14 1995.

15 Q. Did you file reports on the safety and security situation at that

16 time?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. I filed reports on a variety of attacks that occurred on civilians

20 on transportation and really -- and incidents that occurred in "Snipers

21 Alley."

22 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to ask Ms. Bosnjakovic then if she could

23 play clip 6.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

Page 5247

1 MS. EDGERTON: I'll note, Your Honours, that you see the date that

2 the video was from on the line in the top part of the screen, 24 November

3 1994.

4 Would you be able to begin the video again, please? Thank you.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. EDGERTON: Could we stop the video for a moment.

7 Q. Mr. Bell, the image --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


10 Q. Mr. Bell, the image that we've just seen, an UNPROFOR APC

11 sheltering a group of people, walking slowly beside it, can you comment on

12 that image?

13 A. When I first saw it, I found it very striking. And I haven't seen

14 it again until now. I think it's one of the iconic images of the war.

15 The French were trying to bring confidence to the people and a degree of

16 security down there. That was the area near the Holiday Inn. They

17 instituted this idea of the slowly moving armoured vehicle with the people

18 sheltering. And I think it conveys probably more than any single sniping

19 incident the daily perils of the people in the city.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Could we continue, please, now. Thank you.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Mr. Bell, are those reports that you filed on the safety and

24 security situation in Sarajevo between November, 1994 and March, 1995?

25 A. Yes, they are.

Page 5248

1 MS. EDGERTON: I would ask Your Honours that these videos on clip

2 6 be marked as the next exhibit, please.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As P612, Your Honours.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Ms. Bosnjakovic, would you be able to play clip 5

6 now for us.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Mr. Bell, do you recognise the locations depicted in this video?

10 A. Yes. The location appears to be the -- the second of the two

11 areas that I spoke about.

12 MS. EDGERTON: You can stop the video now. Thank you.

13 Q. And you spoke in respect of the image of the slow-moving APC

14 sheltering people in the previous video, and I wonder in that regard -- as

15 a measure of the protection that UNPROFOR was trying to deliver to the

16 population, I wonder in that regard if can you comment on what you've just

17 seen in clip 5?

18 A. Yes. The UNPROFOR was must criticised by the press at the time

19 for not living up to its title and protecting the people. Here it was

20 trying to protect the people and in the second of those two clips, as you

21 can see, it was tragically failing to do so.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask this clip 5 be entered as the next

23 exhibit, please, Your Honours.


25 THE REGISTRAR: As P613, Your Honours.

Page 5249


2 Q. Mr. Bell, you're in Sarajevo over the course of long bouts of time

3 between 1992 and 1995, and I wonder if from that perspective you could

4 tell us whether there was any significance to the operation of the trams

5 in Sarajevo?

6 A. Yes. Sarajevo was in some respect an Austro-Hungarian city and

7 the trams sort of dated from that time, and they were symbolic of the

8 normal functioning of the city. They were stopped, to the best of my

9 recollection, in a big battle on the 2nd of May, 1992, and were -- did not

10 resume for more than a year and a half, I think, till February or March,

11 1994. And the hope was or the thought was that when the trams resumed,

12 then things were getting better and the UN was doing its job and there was

13 hope for the future.

14 Q. Now, you mentioned the trams resumed operation in 1994. Do you

15 recall then following that time the trams having been subject to sniper

16 fire from Serb-held territory?

17 A. Yes, indeed. Whether or not they were targeted, they were

18 certainly hit, and I can only surmise they were attractive targets.

19 Q. Do you recall whether or not in terms of the operation or

20 targeting of the trams or the hitting of the trams there was any location

21 at which the trams were particularly vulnerable?

22 A. Yes. Really, just the same two locations I identified before, but

23 they were most vulnerable, I would have thought, passing that open ground

24 close to the Holiday Inn.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Could we turn then to clip 9, please.

Page 5250

1 Q. Did I make any reports on these incidents, Mr. Bell?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Is that one of your reports, Mr. Bell?

6 A. Yes, it is, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that admitted as the next exhibit,

8 please, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As P614, Your Honours.


12 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, over the course of your work in Sarajevo in

13 particular, do you recall or were you aware of any incidents of UNPROFOR

14 being targeted by Bosnian Serb forces?

15 A. Yes. The detachment of UNPROFOR with area of responsibility in

16 the city centre were the French. The French lost 70 men over the war and

17 some of whom were apparently targeted in that area.

18 Q. Is -- in regard to targeting of UNPROFOR, is there any incident

19 that sticks out in your mind?

20 A. Yes. There was one fairly notorious incident in which a French

21 army engineer was trying to move an anti-sniper block and he was in his

22 vehicle, in his cab, and he was shot and killed there.

23 Q. Do you recall where that took place?

24 A. To the best of my recollection, that is in the same place where

25 you have seen most of the French armoured vehicles on the other clips,

Page 5251

1 that is to say, close to the Holiday Inn.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Ms. Bosnjakovic, could you play clip 4 now, please.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Mr. Bell, does that appear to be the incident that you've just

6 described?

7 A. That is so.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could I have that entered as the next

9 exhibit, please.


11 THE REGISTRAR: As P615, Your Honours.


13 Q. To your knowledge, were UNPROFOR targeted throughout the conflict?

14 A. Like the fighting in Sarajevo, Ms. Edgerton, it fluctuated. There

15 were UNPROFOR soldiers killed not only in Sarajevo but in Gornji Vakuf, in

16 the Spanish-held area and elsewhere. Yes, UNPROFOR, throughout the

17 conflict and throughout the country, the casualties they took were not

18 negligible.

19 Q. And in Sarajevo in particular, what was the situation as regards

20 the targeting of UNPROFOR in late 1994 and early 1995?

21 A. The Christmas cease-fire negotiated by Jimmy Carter certainly

22 improved things for a while and a sort of dialogue resumed, but it was

23 mid-winter when it was always easier to establish a cease-fire, and to the

24 best of my recollection, by March 1995 that had started to fall apart.

25 Q. Do you recall whether you made --

Page 5252

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


3 Q. Do you recall whether you made reports or broadcasts on the

4 targeting of UNPROFOR at this time?

5 A. I believe I did, but I don't have total recall of hundreds and

6 hundreds of reports.

7 Q. If I could just have your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours,

8 we will play one further clip. In fact, about 15 seconds of your

9 indulgence.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Which number is that?

11 MS. EDGERTON: It will be clip number 3.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Mr. Bell, are these two of your reports that include references to

15 the targeting of UNPROFOR at this time?

16 A. Yes, they are. I think I said apparently in the first instance.

17 Yes, they are.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this clip 3 entered as the next

19 exhibit, please, Your Honours.


21 THE REGISTRAR: As P616, Your Honours.


23 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, at the outset of your testimony, you mentioned

24 reference to Serb-held areas around Sarajevo. I think in particular

25 Grbavica. And I'd like to ask you: Generally speaking, did you have

Page 5253

1 access to Serb-held areas around the city during the course of your work?

2 A. Yes, indeed. We began being based in the Hotel Serbia in Ilidza

3 and Ilidza was Serb-held. We continued to have access, rather

4 dangerously, to Serb-held areas. I used to visit Grbavica. When I --

5 even I was based in Vitez, we regularly went up the mountain road to Pale

6 so it wasn't continuous access, but we had access from the start of the

7 war until August, 1994.

8 Q. And from that time, was access closed to you?

9 A. Yes. Access was closed the day after the Bosnian Serb referendum

10 on the contact group plan which the Bosnian Serbs rejected.

11 Q. Now, in the area of Grbavica, did you observe sniping to have been

12 a concern for the civilians there as well?

13 A. It was a concern for the civilians. Of course, there were fewer

14 civilians in these Serb-held areas, because they had the means of getting

15 out of a war zone, certainly if they were not men of military age, but

16 there was anger and deep anxiety about the -- the sniper activity. And I

17 think I wrote in one of my books that there was no monopoly of suffering,

18 and that certainly applies -- applied to the Serbs. And I have been on

19 the receiving end of a Serb sniper myself and I was very lucky to escape.

20 Never -- I beg your pardon. I must change that. I was on the receiving

21 end of a sniper from the Bosnian government side and I was very lucky to

22 escape.

23 Q. And when was that, Mr. Bell?

24 A. That was on the balcony in the Hotel Serbia in -- on I would say

25 the 2nd of May, 1992. I was doing a report to London, and I don't know if

Page 5254

1 I was targeted, but we saw later on the recording the bullet coming in at

2 head height, and I dug it out of the wall and put it my pocket as a lucky

3 charm until I was mortared three months later.

4 Q. When you say -- I'll ask you two questions based on what you've

5 said there. Could you tell us exactly where the Hotel Serbia is located

6 in Sarajevo?

7 A. Hotel Serbia is in park land in Ilidza. I believe it the Hotel

8 with the archduke stayed before his assassination. It's a hotel with

9 history very firmly in the Serb-held area.

10 Q. Now, you mentioned you were mortared three months later. Exactly

11 when was that?

12 A. That was on the 26th of August, 1992.

13 Q. And could you tell us what happened?

14 A. I was investigating an outbreak of fighting near the Marsal Tito

15 barracks. I elected to go by the back road. My field craft failed me. I

16 stayed out of the armoured vehicle for too long, and I was hit by -- in

17 the lower abdomen by some mortar fragments.

18 Q. Do you have any information or any opinion as to where the mortar

19 fragments that injured you were fired from or came from?

20 A. You never know for sure, Ms. Edgerton, but common sense tells me

21 that if I'm hit and I am in the government-held areas, I am being targeted

22 or hit by a Serb shell, just as if I'm in a -- with the Serbs and a bullet

23 comes in and nearly kills me, I'm pretty sure it's coming from the Bosnian

24 government side.

25 Q. Now, going back to the access to Serb-held areas. I would like to

Page 5255

1 ask you, did you ever visit the front lines surrounding Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes, indeed. We were certainly initially made welcome and this

3 happened almost immediately, and Dr. Karadzic, the president of the

4 entity, was happy to show us around.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask Ms. Bosnjakovic then if we could turn

6 to clip number 10, please.

7 [Videotape played]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.

9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Forgive me, Your Honour, but we

10 can't see the picture very well. That might have something to do with the

11 lighting. We can't see what's going on. We just see something moving.

12 We don't see the details. I don't know if anything can be ...

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will ask the technical people to attend to

14 that.

15 Are we able to proceed?

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. I will just try another time. If it

18 doesn't succeed, a technician has been called.

19 The position is the same? If the position is the same,

20 Ms. Edgerton, move on to another topic and we will return to this.

21 Oh, it's there now. It's there good now. Okay.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Bell, is that your voice we hear and is that your video report

25 of the visit to the front line?

Page 5256

1 A. Yes.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]


4 Q. The question, on my colleague and I taking another look at the

5 video, is -- and perhaps you could guide us on this, Mr. Bell. Is this

6 actually a front line location or is it a location that lays behind the

7 front line? And if it assists you, we could play the video again.

8 A. No. I think I can help you with that.

9 As a general feature of the Bosnian war there were no fall-back

10 positions in trenches. I would say that was one of the Trebinje

11 positions, the one not absolutely closest to the city centre but there was

12 a side road with many more positions like that on it, and that was closer

13 to Pale and it was where Karadzic liked to take us.

14 Q. Was there -- at this location was there a sniper position?

15 A. Yes, I believe there was.

16 Q. Over the course of your time reporting from Sarajevo and while you

17 had access to Bosnian Serb-held territory, did you ever visit other sniper

18 positions above the city?

19 A. Yes. Most of the positions I visited were on the high road to

20 Pale, but in January, 1993, I visited an artillery position north-west of

21 Pale looking right down the Miljacka valley into the city where the

22 Bosnian Serb army had two batteries of what they called mountain guns.

23 These were 100-millimetre artillery pieces.

24 Q. Now, in respect of this January 1993 visit you've just mentioned,

25 on the compass with the city of Sarajevo at the centre, would you say the

Page 5257

1 artillery positions lay to the north, south, east, or west of the city?

2 A. These particular positions were to the east.

3 Q. Can you give even a rough estimate of approximately how far to the

4 east they lay?

5 A. I would have thought about ten kilometres, at the most, but closer

6 to the -- obviously, to the front lines, which were very close to them,

7 because the week before we showed up there, there had been an attempt to

8 overrun them by the government forces.

9 Q. At this location, did you observe a line of sight into the city of

10 Sarajevo?

11 A. They had a line of sight, certainly. But they were shooting at the

12 time apparently with cannon fire using tracer on to a government forces

13 front line by a forest, I suppose it was about a kilometre and a half

14 away.

15 Q. So the sight was operational at the time you visited?

16 A. The artillery pieces were not firing, and the colonel told us he

17 had no intention of firing. Then his line was very similar to that taken

18 in the clip you saw from Dr. Karadzic.

19 Q. I just go back to your answer in the previous paragraph. You

20 say: "They were shooting at the time apparently with cannon fire, using

21 tracers."

22 So I actually took from that, Mr. Bell, that the sight was

23 operational.

24 A. Oh, it was an active sight. But in -- in the army, you will

25 seldom have an artillery position with no other defence around it. I said

Page 5258

1 apparently cannon, because we couldn't see the cannon. They were in

2 another part of the same front line giving supporting fire.

3 Q. Thank you. During the course of your reporting from Sarajevo, did

4 you observe that the civilians in Bosnian government-held territory

5 suffered from privations in any regard?

6 A. Yes, in many regards. There was -- the siege was almost total.

7 There were shortage and -- except to the extent that it was broken by

8 relief flights by the UNHCR, there were shortages of food, of water, of

9 power, both gas and electricity, for much of the war.

10 Q. Did you see what people did then for fuel, for gas or

11 electricity? How did they cook or how did they keep warm?

12 A. They cut down trees, Ms. Edgerton. You will -- if you go to

13 Sarajevo to this day in the city centre you will find very few mature

14 trees except in the park land outside the Presidency. Those were taken

15 for fuel. And as for water, people went to the few water points that were

16 available when the fighting was at its fiercest, and these, of course,

17 included scooping water out of the river itself.

18 Q. And to your observation did these privations endure throughout the

19 war?

20 A. Like the fighting, they fluctuated. There was a period, there

21 were periods during winter lulls, during cease-fires, during temporary

22 agreements where gas and electricity were intermittently restored. There

23 was a period when the food situation got better, but come April, 1995, the

24 plight of the civilians inside Sarajevo was as desperate as it had been at

25 any time.

Page 5259

1 MS. EDGERTON: Now, before I move to the next clip, could I tender

2 clip 10, the video of Karadzic, as an exhibit, please, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As P617, Your Honours.

5 MS. EDGERTON: And ask Ms. Bosnjakovic if she could play clip 12.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, having looked at these video clips, do they reflect

9 the privations you have described and the way civilians coped through

10 those privations, as you've set out in your testimony?

11 A. Yes. They were obviously shot at different times but -- and in

12 different seasons, but I think they convey the difficulties the population

13 were facing quite vividly.

14 Q. These gatherings of people, as you saw on the first clip, to get

15 water seem to have substantial numbers of people. Do you recall any

16 instance or any information of -- that you might personally have of a

17 water line having been targeted?

18 A. Yes. It happened near the old maternity hospital. Again it was

19 January, 1993. There was one standpipe from which people could get water,

20 but they were sniped at on their way there. And while we were filming

21 there, one of the water carriers was hit in the leg, so we just stopped

22 work, and my interpreter who was a nurse patched him, and I had the only

23 vehicle, so I took him to the hospital.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could move on, I'd like to ask you a couple

25 of questions relating to shelling and some of the comments you made

Page 5260

1 earlier in your testimony about shelling.

2 Did you observe destruction in Bosnian government-held territory,

3 destruction of buildings caused by the shelling of the city?

4 A. Yes. You could see it in some of the landmark buildings like the

5 parliament office buildings, the south side of the Holiday Inn, the old

6 library that was destroyed. There was a certain amount of destruction

7 there caused by tank fire, artillery fire and so on.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask clip 12 be tendered as the next

9 exhibit. And we play clip 14 following that.

10 Clip, 12, Your Honours.


12 THE REGISTRAR: As P618, Your Honours.

13 MS. EDGERTON: And now moving on to clip 14, please.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. You've spoken about landmark buildings, Mr. Bell. Do you

17 recognise the building that's burning in the picture in front you?

18 A. This one, of course, is the parliament office building. The one

19 before were the Unis towers.

20 Q. And the next building bearing the flag of the Red Cross?

21 A. That may have been a Red Cross building. I can't tell. This is a

22 main residential centre, and as you can see, the damage is not caused by

23 small arms.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have clip 14 tendered as the next exhibit,

Page 5261

1 please. Or could I tender clip 14 as the next exhibit.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As P619, Your Honours.


5 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony, Mr. Bell, you mentioned later in

6 the war Serb used weapons they hadn't used before and you specifically

7 referred to wire-guided missiles, phosphorous and air bombs. If I could

8 refer to the wire-guided missiles first, did you make any report on the

9 use of those missiles?

10 A. Yes, I did, in an attack on the Presidency building.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask clip 15 be played, please.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Is that your report, Mr. Bell?

15 A. Yes, it is, Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Could this clip 15 please be marked as the next

17 exhibit.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As P620, Your Honours.


21 Q. Now, next, Mr. Bell, you've mentioned the use of air bombs. What

22 was the first instance in which you became aware of their use; do you

23 recall?

24 A. Yes. It was in Hrasnica very much in the west of the

25 government-held area in the first week of June, 1995.

Page 5262

1 Q. Did you make a report?

2 A. Yes, I did. Actually, I had difficulty getting the attention of

3 the BBC to allow me to do so, because they said not another explosion in

4 Sarajevo. I said this is different and you should take note of it.

5 Q. And why was it different?

6 A. It was different because this was the first use, to my knowledge,

7 of an aircraft bomb rocket propelled into Sarajevo. This is a -- I

8 suppose we might now call it a weapon of mass destruction, and it is by

9 its nature. We might even call it a weapon of shock and awe. It is so

10 destructive that it is, more than most, incapable of distinguishing

11 between targets.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Could we play clip 16, please, and, Your Honours,

13 that relates to scheduled shelling, I think it's number 6 from the 7th of

14 April, 1995.

15 [Videotape played]


17 Q. Mr. Bell, is that your report on the use of the air bomb in

18 Hrasnica?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And I note the date of the report appeared inscribed on the top of

21 the video, and it wasn't in fact a report on an incident in June, 1995,

22 was it?

23 A. No. I remember it as having been in June, but in that case I

24 misremembered. I'm sorry.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could I have this clip 16 marked as

Page 5263

1 the next exhibit.


3 THE REGISTRAR: As P621, Your Honours.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

5 Q. Are you aware of the use of air bombs on any other occasion

6 Mr. Bell?

7 A. Yes. A similar bomb was fired at the television station I believe

8 in July, and it fell in one of the two wells surrounded by big building

9 blocks there and exploded, causing extensive damage and some casualties

10 and an air bomb was also used on a -- it certainly hit a UN vehicle depot

11 close to the television station at about the same time.

12 Q. Now, to your knowledge, was this the first time the television

13 station had been targeted with anything?

14 A. Not at all, Ms. Edgerton. It had been a regular target for attack

15 from the early days of the war.

16 Q. Do you have any view as to the appropriateness of the use of this

17 weapon in an urban environment?

18 A. I think it is disproportionate and thus against the -- against the

19 rules of law. It has no chance of distinguishing between targets.

20 Q. Did you make any observations or come across any information to

21 the effect that the Bosnian Muslim or Bosnian government forces had any

22 weapons of the same or similar nature or calibre as these bombs?

23 A. No. They were always short of heavy weapons and they certainly

24 had no rocket-delivered air bombs.

25 Q. You also now in terms of different weapons talked about the use of

Page 5264

1 phosphorus. When was that, do you recall?

2 A. Yes, I do recall that. It was on the 24th of May, 1995. It was

3 identified for us as a phosphorous bomb by the UN spokesman, Colonel Gary

4 Kalet [phoen], who used to be a gunner with expert knowledge of these

5 weapons.

6 Q. What was the situation in Sarajevo at that time?

7 A. The situation was -- was very tense. The -- the UN commander,

8 General Smith, delivered an ultimatum to Pale to the Bosnian Serbs on that

9 day. And it -- it ended the following day or the day after with hostage

10 taking of the UN by the Bosnian Serbs or it didn't end there, but it

11 continued with that.

12 Q. All right. Over the course of time, you having been in and out of

13 Sarajevo for more or less the -- over the 44 months of the hostilities

14 could you or did you see any effect on the civilian population as a result

15 of the shelling or the sniping or the lack that you've spoken about of

16 basic necessities?

17 A. Yes. The effects were severe on civilians on both sides of the

18 front lines but especially acute on the government side, because the

19 civilians there had no prospect of escaping. They looked hagard, they

20 looked hunted. Their only business of the day was to get through the day

21 to survive. Survival was what it was about. They were -- they were truly

22 desperate times.

23 Q. Mr. Bell, were you in Sarajevo on the 28th of August, 1995?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. Did you make any reports on the shelling of the marketplace?

Page 5265

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could we please play clip 18 then.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Is this your report, Mr. Bell?

6 A. Yes. And I'm -- to this day I'm not happy about it, but because

7 of the BBC's guidelines we were allowed to show very little of the real

8 bloodshed for fear of upsetting people, and I think we took it much too

9 far. The real scenes of what happened there, I wasn't allowed to show,

10 and I think the BBC should be ashamed of itself for that.

11 Q. Did you visit the scene, Mr. Bell?

12 A. Of course, yes. That's my business. It was my business. And as

13 you prepared this report on the incident and its aftermath, did you also

14 have occasion to view film by other agencies?

15 A. Yes, we did. We ran a pool. It was a cooperative effort, and we

16 had access to all the video that was shot, including the most vivid

17 pictures, which were not included in my television report.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Could have I this clip 18, please, tendered -- or

19 admitted as the next exhibit.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As P622, Your Honours.

22 MS. EDGERTON: And could I ask that clip 19 please be played.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Mr. Bell, do you have any comment on the film clip you've just

Page 5266

1 seen, please?

2 A. I think it's one of the most shocking of the war. On many

3 occasions, and that was one of them, I was thinking to myself that if you

4 ever tried to make a movie of this war, you couldn't. The scenes going on

5 around me could not be replicated for a movie. They were so terrible and

6 they were real world and really shocking, and I also felt this cannot go

7 on. We were more than three years into it. And I said to myself, you

8 know, this cannot go on. It has to be stopped in the name of our common

9 humanity. That's what I thought.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'd like to have this clip 19

11 tendered as the last exhibit, please.


13 THE REGISTRAR: As P623, Your Honours.


15 Q. I have one last question for you, Mr. Bell. Over the course of

16 your time in Sarajevo reporting from that city in respect of this or any

17 other incident, did you make any observations of Bosnian government forces

18 either firing on themselves or staging incidents?

19 A. No, I did not, nor of the Serbs or the Croats, either. As I've

20 just indicated, something like that is just -- is just not stageable. On

21 the larger political question, I think that the government forces had a --

22 and I've said so, in my testimony and in the book I wrote, had an interest

23 in trying to -- to break the siege and they had an interest in attracting

24 the sympathy of the outside world and indeed the intervention of the

25 outside world, but I have no evidence whatever that they would fire on

Page 5267

1 their own people to do that.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you hear stories to that effect?

3 THE WITNESS: There were -- Your Honour, there were-- the place

4 was so full of stories. General Lew MacKenzie, when he left in the high

5 summer of 1992, he gave a press conference to the local press in which he

6 said something like, it would help if both sides stopped targeting their

7 own people, and that was left hanging in the air. I've found nothing to

8 corroborate that on -- I mean, I reported this war from, I suppose, all

9 three sides, and I mean, there were armies with an interest in keeping the

10 fighting going. I mean, you've got to be motivated to be a soldier, but I

11 found, myself, no evidence of that. You saw in that last clip the French

12 army engineers were on the spot almost immediately, working -- doing

13 what's called crater analysis to find out where it came from, and they

14 concluded it came from the other side.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did General MacKenzie leave?

16 THE WITNESS: General MacKenzie left, to the best of my knowledge,

17 in about July, 1992.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: July, 1992.

19 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. All right. Are you finished?


22 Q. Mr. Bell, then, I take it from your response to Judge Robinson

23 that you gave no credence to any stories you might have heard to that

24 effect; is that right?

25 A. That is right, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 5268

1 MS. EDGERTON: I have no further questions now, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just make one very quick follow-up before we

3 take the break. Because I thought you said you had been the target of a

4 government sniper at one time, so why would government forces be

5 interested in sniping at the -- at the -- at journalists?

6 THE WITNESS: I was within Bosnian Serb-held territory, I was

7 close to an active front line, and I see no reason why -- I never felt the

8 journalists as journalists were targeted from start to finish, but I was

9 rather unwisely in the open and there was a lot of led flying about and

10 one of these bullets nearly killed me, and, Your Honour if I may say so,

11 this happens to you, you tend to take things personally. They tend to

12 think that -- that I could have just been unlucky to have been so close to

13 it.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But suppose you had been just an ordinary

15 civilian. You would have been living in -- sorry. Oh, you said you were

16 living in Bosnian Serb-held territory?

17 THE WITNESS: At that time, yes, Your Honour.



20 Q. And this -- the date of that incident, Mr. Bell?

21 A. It was the morning of the big battle for the hotel grounds, which

22 I think was the 22nd of April, 1992.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, the pictures that we saw

24 of the incident on the Markale, are these pictures yours? Did you shoot

25 them yourself?

Page 5269

1 THE WITNESS: They are a mixture, Your Honour, of pictures shot by

2 my own cameraman and some that came from the Sarajevo agency pool, but

3 they were predominantly shot by my own cameraman, because the Sarajevo

4 pictures were too vivid for me to be allowed to use, allowed by the BBC,

5 that is.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thank Judge Mindua for asking that. You should

7 have led evidence on that issue.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Just to clarify, I assume from the question and

9 Mr. Bell's answer that he's referring to his own report, the first one,

10 P622, when he talks about whose cameraman shot the images.

11 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And your cameraman, Witness, got

13 there to this spot right after, I surmise, right after the incident

14 happened? I'm looking at the scene as it looks on the pictures. There's

15 a crowd. There's a lot of cars. There's a lot of traffic. This

16 cameraman of yours, was he already there when it happened or did he get

17 there a while later, and in that case, how long?

18 THE WITNESS: The second set of pictures that you saw were

19 obviously shot by a cameraman who was almost on the spot when it

20 happened. Towards the end of that sequence you will see some white

21 armoured civilian armoured vehicles which were the press vehicles which

22 came down as fast as possible from the press briefing at the United

23 Nations where we all there. Therefore, I would guess that between the

24 second more vivid coverage you saw and the first coverage, there was

25 probably a time-lapse of about ten minutes.

Page 5270

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: And are you now finished?


4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll take the break.

5 --- Recess taken at 6.23 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.43 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, you are to cross-examine.

8 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Ms. Isailovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, Witness. My name is Branislava

11 Isailovic and I am a lawyer from the Paris bar. I defend Mr. -- I

12 defended General Dragomir Milosevic, and I will now ask you a few

13 questions regarding your statement of today. And I will also refer to

14 your statement that you gave to the Prosecutor on the 29th of December,

15 1995, and I will also be referring to the statement of the 1996 --

16 February of 1996. Do you recall giving those statements to the Office of

17 the Prosecutor?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Tonight, we're not going to have much time, so I will start with

20 the statements in question. It's document bearing number DD00-20085.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. DD00-20085.

22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Your document is -- what is the date of your document?

24 A. Three dates: We have the 29th of December of 1995 and 6th and 7th

25 of February, 1996.

Page 5271

1 Q. Witness, I imagine that you yourself or maybe you went somewhere

2 or maybe you had people come over to see you to take this statement. Do

3 you recall giving this statement on those three dates -- these three

4 statements?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Or start over. Correction.

6 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Do you recall giving these statements on these dates?

8 A. Yes. I recall certainly at one point two lawyers from the

9 Tribunal came to my home in north London and we did it there.

10 Q. So it was on three different occasions?

11 A. It looks as if two of the dates were consecutive, so I think we

12 could take them really to have been two different sessions. I can't

13 remember if one of them was by telephone or not.

14 Q. But at any rate, I would like you to take a look at the screen and

15 to tell us if this statement is bearing your signature, if the left-hand

16 page bears your signature. Can you confirm that to us?

17 A. Yes, I can confirm that.

18 Q. Now, this statement covers the entire period during which you were

19 in Bosnia, in Croatia, in the former Yugoslavia?

20 A. Yes, that is true.

21 Q. The period that we are interested in is Sarajevo, between the 10th

22 of August, 1994, and the 21st of November, 1995. This is why I would

23 invite everybody to go to page 14.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is that in English; do you know?

25 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm going to give the

Page 5272

1 reference in English because my statement [as interpreted] is in English,

2 and I imagine that in B/C/S there is also a page that we can find easily.

3 It must be the same page, probably.

4 Q. Witness, on that page, on two or three places there is a mention

5 of a name, Milosevic. Could you please confirm to us that the mention

6 here is not Dragomir Milosevic but Slobodan -- is not Slobodan Milosevic,

7 but, rather, Dragomir Milosevic. I'm only asking you this to avoid

8 confusion.

9 Now, I'm interested in the paragraph that begins by, "if there was

10 a general pattern." It's towards the middle of the page. And I would

11 like to you read out loud that paragraph, please. And then we will talk

12 about it.

13 A. "If there was a general pattern to the fighting in the Sarajevo

14 during the whole of the siege, it was that the Muslims would attack

15 outwards with small arms and infantry, and the Serbs would respond with

16 artillery because that was their strength. The world therefore got an

17 impression that Sarajevo was under constant and unprovoked bombardment.

18 However, the war was being waged by both sides. I would even say that the

19 Muslims had a political interest in provoking the Serbs to use their heavy

20 artillery."

21 Q. So you maintain what is said here in this portion of your

22 statement?

23 A. Yes, I do, and I've -- I wrote a book about the war in Bosnia

24 making some of the same points, ma'am.

25 Q. We all have access to internet nowadays. My learned friend,


Page 5273

1 Ms. Edgerton, sent me an article. It seems to be sort of a note that

2 was -- notes that were taken during a televised programme taken with

3 Mr. Mick O'Regan. I don't know if I pronounce his name correctly. Can

4 you confirm that? Do you recall this? It's something to do with a --

5 with a role that reporter plays before international jurisdiction?

6 A. Yes, unfortunately, I don't recognise from your pronunciation the

7 name of the reporter. If could you spell it, maybe. Was it a BBC

8 programme? It doesn't matter, because if I said it, I'll stand by it.

9 Q. No, no. There is no problem. I will spell the name for you. His

10 first name is Mick and then there's O-'-R-e-g-a-n.

11 A. I honestly don't remember the programme. I do vaguely remember

12 his name. I do a lot of television, ma'am. But I'm probably quite happy

13 to stand by whatever I said. You can try me.

14 Q. Yes, thank you. So I'm going to quote something that was said

15 during that interview. It was said that the war in Bosnia, amongst other

16 things, was a televised war.

17 Would you be able to confirm this to us? Or do you maintain this?

18 A. I do. I do. The key qualification is among other things. The

19 war of words and -- and images was -- was extremely important to both

20 sides. It may interest you to know that our -- we were bombed out of our

21 Ilidza headquarters in the second week in May 1992. I had just left, and

22 the -- the editing equipment that we left behind on the video tapes formed

23 the basis of Bosnian Serb television when it was set up in Pale. I only

24 mention this to show how important the televised war was to both sides.

25 Q. So most of the time you were at the Holiday Inn Hotel?

Page 5274

1 A. We were in the Hotel Serbia in Ilidza for the first period for

2 about a month. After that, most of the time in Sarajevo, yes, we were in

3 Holiday Inn. But, of course, when we moved to Central Bosnia we were

4 elsewhere.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly wait for the end of the

6 question, thank you, before answering.

7 Q. I would like to talk about --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

9 Mr. Bell, the interpreter is asking you to wait until the question

10 has been asked so there is no overlapping.

11 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Yes, maybe it's better to put your headphones. This is why I put

13 my headphones as well. For the interpreters it's easier if we wait

14 between answers and questions.

15 So, I would like to refer to the period going from the month of

16 August of 1994 up until the end of the Dayton agreement. So could you

17 please confirm to me that the Holiday Inn Hotel was in a way your place of

18 residence while you were in Sarajevo; is that right?

19 A. Correct, that is correct.

20 Q. We saw some video clips earlier and we will take a look at more

21 video clips tomorrow, video clips that were taken by yourself. We noticed

22 some incidents, and there was an incident that took place right in front

23 of the Holiday Inn Hotel; is that right?

24 A. Yes. I would say more than one of those incidents took place in

25 front of the Holiday Inn Hotel.

Page 5275

1 Q. Yes, but at that time, how were you able to find out where the

2 shots were coming from -- when civilians who were targeted in front of the

3 Holiday Inn, how did you know where the shots were coming from? I'm not

4 asking you to give us a name but what was the -- what way, what mean did

5 you have of knowing this?

6 A. I suppose the answer is common sense. If a French soldier is

7 standing on -- on the protected side of an armoured vehicle and he looks

8 around the corner and there's a -- you hear the shot and he flinches back,

9 he knows where it's coming from, so I think the answer is common sense.

10 In the same way that when I was nearly killed when I was in Ilidza by

11 somebody on the government side, I assume that the shot came from there.

12 Q. But, precisely, I remember clearly that you said that when you

13 were hit by a bullet in Ilidza, this is what you said: "The confrontation

14 line was active."

15 Do you remember saying that?

16 A. I wasn't hit by a bullet, madam. I was nearly hit.

17 Yes, there was a -- there was a battle going on, on the perimeter

18 of the park land some way away.

19 Q. So you must have noticed at that time -- fortunately you were not

20 hit. You must have noticed that the line of confrontation, when it's

21 busy, it's a very dangerous spot, isn't it?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. And now, based on your memories which I presume must be reliable

24 of the -- the confrontation line near the Holiday Inn was relatively

25 close?

Page 5276

1 A. Yes, it was close. I mean, I had been on the Bosnian Serb side

2 and their forward positions which were in one of the faculties of the

3 university, and I would have thought, I would guess that was no more than

4 two or at the most 300 metres from the Holiday Inn.

5 Q. Sorry, which faculty are you talking about, philosophy?

6 A. I remember -- my recollection is not absolute, but I do remember a

7 certain irony that war was going on and one of the front lines was in the

8 philosophy faculty. I think it was philosophy, but I couldn't be 100 per

9 cent certain after 15 years.

10 Q. So you must have seen soldiers of the ABiH around the Holiday Inn,

11 near the confrontation line.

12 A. They were not much in evidence there. I did on one occasion see a

13 group who I took to be snipers, because they were -- there were four,

14 five, men in uniform and they had with them encased weapons, which were

15 surely not fishing rods, and they were going into the office building of

16 the -- of the parliament. But in most of the front line -- I mean, the

17 positions could be only 40 metres or so from each other and the soldiers,

18 for their own protection, wouldn't be out where you could see them.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, we have come to the time when we

20 must adjourn.

21 As indicated earlier, tomorrow we will start at 8.30. The sitting

22 schedule for tomorrow has been sent, I understand, by e-mail to all the

23 parties, and I hope it is satisfactory.

24 We stand adjourned.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m., to

Page 5277

1 be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of April,

2 2007, at 8.30 a.m.