Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6984

1 Thursday, 21 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will give its decision on the

6 Prosecution's motion filed on the 20th of June to exclude the testimony of

7 Witness T-42. The Prosecution contends that the witness will testify

8 about an attack on Bosnian Serbs -- on the Bosnian Serb-held Ilidza in

9 April 1992 which led to the establishment of a hospital in Blazuj. He

10 came to direct that hospital. They contend that the -- Blazuj is a full

11 10 kilometres or more from the Sarajevo city centre and at least 3 full

12 kilometres outside the confrontation lines.

13 The only part of the witness's evidence which, in the

14 Prosecution's view, might fall within the indictment is that section that

15 relates solely to the operation of the hospital in Blazuj. In their

16 submission, this does not in any way relate to the potential criminal

17 liability of the accused. It is on these bases that they seek the

18 exclusion of this witness's evidence.

19 The Defence in reply make a number of arguments. I will outline

20 some of them. They say that the witness is an eye-witness to military

21 activities taking place in the Ilidza municipality and its surroundings.

22 He's also an eye-witness to consequences of those activities for the

23 civilian population and the military personnel deployed in that territory

24 from the 22nd of April until the end of the conflict. They make the point

25 that on the basis of the evidence led by the Prosecutor, Ilidza is a part

Page 6985

1 of the city of Sarajevo. They also contend that the Prosecutor has

2 characterised those military activities as a campaign of shelling and

3 sniping against civilians. The Defence say they contest that

4 qualification and submit that the intensity of military activities of the

5 ABiH indicate that it was not the civilian population of the ABiH that was

6 the objective of the military of the SRK.

7 A weakness in this submission, I might say, is that it doesn't say

8 how the witness's evidence would help the Chamber in this issue. But they

9 go on to say that Witness T-42 will testify on all aspects of the

10 Zica Hospital's daily running where he was the director during the armed

11 conflict in the city of Sarajevo, in particular, he will testify on the

12 military status of patients and on the nature of their wounds and,

13 importantly, the geographical location of the hospital, surrounded by

14 hills controlled by the ABiH. The Chamber takes the view that these

15 submissions provide enough information to warrant hearing this witness and

16 although some of the evidence will relate to the pre-indictment period,

17 1992, and to an area which is some 3 miles from the Sarajevo theatre, the

18 Chamber takes the view that the submissions warrant hearing this witness.

19 It will, therefore, dismiss the Prosecution's motion. The dismissal of

20 this motion, of course, does not mean that the witness can testify on any

21 and everything. The Chamber still, of course, has the duty to see that

22 his evidence is at all times relevant.

23 A worrying aspect of this submission I should say is the lateness

24 of the Prosecution's motion, coming as it did just one day before the

25 witness was scheduled to testify. The Chamber finds that this is not an

Page 6986

1 acceptable procedure.

2 That's the Chamber's ruling.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will assign one hour for each party. I hope

5 you heard that, Mr. Tapuskovic. One hour for each party to lead evidence

6 and for the cross-examination.

7 Let the witness be brought in.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

13 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has a

15 pseudonym as well as voice and image distortion. Could this document be

16 please shown to him so that he can confirm that it is his identity.

17 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I would like to have

19 this document tendered as an exhibit under seal.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As D253, under seal, Your Honours.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we could

23 move into private session now so that the witness can introduce himself.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 6987

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Witness, since our time is very limited, we need to deal with just

24 with the most important things. So please take care just to answer me

25 when the typing on the screen, on the transcript, stops; when you see

Page 6988

1 that, that means that it's the end of my question. When you see that the

2 cursor has stopped, then you can begin your answer.

3 So my question is: Did you join the Army of Republika Srpska; and

4 if you did, when was that?

5 A. Yes, this was in May.

6 Q. In order to cover things more quickly, I would like to show you a

7 map, 65 ter number 2872.

8 While we're waiting for the map to appear, can you please tell us

9 if you know when the lines were set up, the lines of separation, between

10 the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in that

11 area where you were at that point in time when you joined the Army of

12 Republika Srpska.

13 A. When I came to Dobrinja I for the first time, the line was already

14 established.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the map now?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Well, I could deal with this in cross, but rather

18 than do that, maybe it would assist everyone if we could have some

19 specification of what year we're talking about.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. -- Witness, what year is this?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is 1992.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I thought the witness

23 already said that. I mean, it's something that is not implied, but all

24 right, very well.

25 Can we now zoom-in on the southern section of the map where

Page 6989

1 Dobrinja is.

2 Can we scroll down a little bit more -- actually, scroll up.

3 Thank you.

4 Q. The line of separation that you said existed in May 1992, can you

5 mark it here on this map as being the line where you were.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, this is 1992. How does this

10 witness's evidence relate to the issues in the indictment?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

12 remained at the line throughout the war. In order to speak about anything

13 that has to do with the conflict, also during the time-period from August

14 until the end of the war, he needs to show us the lines first, the ones

15 that existed at the time, and how the lines were established, what

16 happened. In order for me to be able to ask him about anything that has

17 to do with his activities at the beginning of the war, he lived there in a

18 location that he will indicate to you, and as a person who was born there

19 and lived there, he must show you what happened so that he went to the

20 lines and stayed there until the conflict was over.

21 It will be hard for him to explain to you anything further if he

22 cannot say first something about the lines of separation that he went to

23 at the end of May 1992 --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Bring him to the period covered by the

25 indictment as quickly as possible.

Page 6990

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I would like to

2 do that in view of the time that I have, but I think it's difficult to

3 question any witness unless he first explains how he became a soldier of

4 the Army of Republika Srpska.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You will do it if you just get on with the work.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, can you please indicate the place where your house was

8 before you went to join the lines that you marked.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. I don't see that you made any kind of mark. Can you please mark

11 that with a letter C.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Where is that railway station where you worked?

14 A. The station is at Ilidza, it's in this direction, but you cannot

15 see it on the map.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom-in a little

17 bit more to the right of that map so that we can see that? Very well.

18 All right.

19 Q. In any case in that direction. How far was that from there?

20 A. Well, I think I can give you an approximate distance. It was

21 about 6, 7, or 8 kilometres, up to 10 at the most.

22 Q. And for how long were you able to go to work?

23 A. I was able to go to work until the end of March.

24 [Defence counsel confer].

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6991

1 Q. And what happens so that you couldn't go to work anymore, can you

2 please tell us?

3 A. I wasn't able to go to work because it wasn't safe to pass through

4 any more. There were many events that had already happened in Sarajevo,

5 and because of everything that had happened that we were able to follow on

6 the media, they didn't allow for a sensible person to embark on going to a

7 part of town controlled by the Muslim forces.

8 Q. Do you know anything about when the Yugoslav People's Army

9 withdrew?

10 A. Yes. Yes. The Yugoslav People's Army withdrew sometime in

11 mid-May.

12 Q. Did you monitor that withdrawal? What did that mean? How did

13 they withdraw? What was the significance of that?

14 A. The army --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm questioning how the

17 witness is in a position to comment anything about the significance of the

18 withdrawal of the JNA from regions in and around Sarajevo in 1992 and how

19 the withdrawal of the JNA at that period of time is actually relevant to

20 the case that we're here for today.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the relevance of this information, even

22 assuming that the witness is in a position to provide it?

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we look at any

24 count in the indictment, or if we start again from Count 7 and move from

25 there, we know that what is being discussed here -- continuously discussed

Page 6992

1 here -- I mean, if this is something that has to be excluded, then I would

2 very gladly just leave that out and then start from September, or rather,

3 August 1995. The whole indictment speaks about the transformation of the

4 Yugoslav People's Army into the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The entire

5 indictment speaks about the fact that all the weapons of the JNA remained

6 in the position -- in the possession of the Army of Republika Srpska. The

7 entire indictment says that the JNA took up all the important strategic

8 positions before 1995 and the Serbian Democratic Party --


10 Witness, are you in a position to -- to tell us what was the

11 significance of the JNA's withdrawal in 1992?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that the army withdrew and

13 that I saw all of that and I lived there that in the area where I was

14 born, and had they not left some heavy weapons for us, vast quantities

15 of -- and that it did not leave any vast quantities of heavy weapons

16 behind.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Next question. I'm hearing the witness's

18 language, B/C/S, in the translation. Can I ask the court usher to look at

19 it for me.

20 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, continue, yes.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Witness, can you please tell us, for example, that place where

24 your house was or in that area generally, did you see any of those heavy

25 weapons thereabouts?

Page 6993

1 A. Where I lived, that's where I saw when they pulled out of the

2 airport. I saw three tanks which went to the south behind our

3 neighbourhood, our settlement, and I saw four Pragas.

4 Q. And where were the four Pragas in the beginning? Can you please

5 mark that with the letter P.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Can you please tell us this place where your house is, what is the

8 name of that place?

9 A. The whole area is called Kotorac, and the place above is called

10 Gradac.

11 Q. Can you please describe that elevation and tell us how high it is.

12 A. The elevation or Vrh, it's about 600 metres high and it is in the

13 shape of a pyramid. The actual peak of the elevation is not so big. It's

14 inaccessible. The only way you can reach it is on foot. And then there

15 is a drop below like 2 or 300 metres lower than that it turns into a kind

16 of mild hill.

17 Q. What is the nearest hill in the direction of the north?

18 A. To the north the closest hill is Mojmilo.

19 Q. Can you please indicate where Mojmilo is and what it looks like.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. You said that Gradac is just a few square metres wide where -- at

22 the highest point of the elevation, but can you please describe the

23 characteristics of Mojmilo in terms of the height characteristics of it.

24 A. Mojmilo is the same height all along its length, from Nedzarici to

25 Dobrinja to Vrace and I think that it is much higher -- well, not that

Page 6994

1 much higher but it's higher than the Gradac elevation.

2 Q. That hill is on that side, but is there any hill here to the west?

3 A. Well, to the west it's not a hill, it's the mountain, Mount Igman,

4 that dominates the whole area. It is more than a thousand metres high. I

5 don't know its exact height, but it's over 1.000 metres.

6 Q. Thank you. And how far is that from your house?

7 A. Well, Mojmilo hill is 2 and a half to 3 kilometres as the crow

8 flies -- well, in fact, as the crow flies and as you drive and Igman is

9 approximately the same distance.

10 Q. Could you please tell me, did anything stick in your mind in the

11 early days regarding the combat activities where you were?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Was your father wounded?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When?

16 A. It was in 1993.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, with respect, my submission is that

19 that's outside of the indictment period and whether or not his father was

20 wounded outside the indictment period is not relevant to the charges in

21 this case.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. Move on to another issue.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, in general, could you please tell us. As regards combat in

25 any period, including the period relevant for the indictment, where was

Page 6995

1 the fire coming from?

2 A. Well, the Muslim forces opened fire from Mount Igman, from

3 Hrasnica, from Kobac, from Mojmilo, and they mostly opened artillery fire.

4 In that area where my house was, where I was born and where I lived, my

5 father was wounded, a lot of civilians were killed, and a number of them

6 were seriously wounded. So these were the directions that I mentioned, in

7 particular in 1992, in the summer of 1992, there was constant fire,

8 barrage fire, on the civilian areas.

9 Q. But let us move on to the period relevant for the indictment --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, I was going to raise my objection

12 with respect to the period -- the mention of the period of the summer of

13 1992.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, please bear in mind that 45

15 minutes have been allocated for each party in this -- in this matter.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am keeping an eye on the

17 time, very much so.

18 Q. Witness, do you know at all when General Dragomir Milosevic was

19 appointed the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

20 A. I don't know exact -- the exact date, but it was in 1994, I think.

21 Q. How was it in 1994 in the area where you were, where you lived

22 with your family and with your neighbours and -- the first question.

23 A. Well, 1994, let me describe what the situation was in the area

24 where I and my family lived. The beginning of the year was quite calm,

25 but there was some sporadic fire. Shells would fall sporadically. It was

Page 6996

1 calm, the situation was calm, until sometime in the fall, October,

2 thereabouts.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we save this map as it is

4 marked. I don't believe that I will be revisiting it again as a Defence

5 exhibit.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As D254, Your Honours.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, could you please tell the Judges who was in the unit

10 where you fought during the entire war?

11 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean who was there?

12 Q. Well, who comprised the unit? Who were the people who were there

13 with you in those positions, those locations where you were?

14 A. Well, these were all people from the area, locals, who lived in

15 this area, who were born in that area.

16 Q. And when did you take up arms and why did you do so and who did --

17 who issued you with the rifles?

18 A. Well, I got my rifle from the Territorial Defence, and then the

19 Territorial Defence became the Republika Srpska Army after the Yugoslav

20 People's Army withdrew.

21 Q. Do you know who was your immediate superior?

22 A. I know just a brigade commander, Miodrag Sejhovac [phoen].

23 Q. So you tell us that it was quiet all the way up to October. And

24 what happened then, in 1994?

25 A. Well, in 1994 I was in Vojkovici as a member of the 2nd Sarajevo

Page 6997

1 Brigade, because it covered that area in the direction of Kijevo and

2 Trnovo. I spent most of my time there, and then we were sent further

3 south from Vojkovici from time to time. That did -- had not happened in

4 the previous period, but it did in that period because we sustained some

5 heavy attacks from the Muslim -- by the Muslim forces from Igman,

6 Bjelasnica, and Trnovo.

7 Q. And could you please tell me, when was the last offensive launched

8 by the Republika Srpska army?

9 A. Well, the last offensive launched by the Republika Srpska army in

10 the area where I was, in the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade, was in 1993. That was

11 Operation Lukavac. That's what it was called.

12 Q. And how did it end?

13 A. Well, it ended -- in fact, my brigade went all the way up to the

14 summit of Igman without encountering any resistance. We didn't fight

15 because they had already pulled out, and then we had to wait a couple of

16 days there because there was some negotiations mediated by the

17 international community with our leadership. And then after that, we had

18 to pull out to our starting positions.

19 Q. So you were talking about October and November 1994. These were

20 the offensives that were launched by whom?

21 A. In 1994, the Muslims launched the offensives.

22 Q. And you said that you were there in the Trnovo area. What was

23 going on in the Trnovo area? Were there any clashes there and who

24 suffered casualties in those clashes?

25 A. In 1994, the Serbian army and the Serbian people suffered

Page 6998

1 casualties in the clashes there, I mean the local Serbian population,

2 because our troops sustained a fierce offensive, fierce attacks, infantry

3 attacks, artillery attacks on our positions and we were able to hold it

4 off for some 15 days. And then when I was rotated and when I went back to

5 our positions at Vojkovici and some other people manned this position, the

6 line was broken through and the enemy came all the way up to Trnovo.

7 Q. And do you know what the people wanted to do in those moments?

8 A. Well, there was chaos in Trnovo for the civilians.

9 General Milosevic went there to try to calm the people down; that's what I

10 learned from the people there when I came back. And people in Trnovo were

11 thankful to him for that, and he gave them his support. He told them that

12 they should remain there in their homes.

13 Q. And when did those offensives peter out?

14 A. It was at the end of the year.

15 Q. And when did this lull -- for how long did this lull last?

16 A. Well, now I'm talking about the area covered by the 2nd Brigade.

17 There were some sporadic shellings of the civilians and some machine-gun

18 fire was opened on Vojkovici and Sarajevo-Trnovo road, but the lull lasted

19 until sometime in August, August, September, October of the next year.

20 Q. Yes, but you said that there was a lull. Could you please define

21 when it began and when it ended.

22 A. Well, the beginning of 1995, all the way up to August of that

23 year, 1995.

24 Q. What happened in the summer of 1995?

25 A. I think that sanctions were imposed at that time.

Page 6999

1 Q. Do you know when the war ended?

2 A. It was in 1995, in the fall, after the Dayton Peace Accords.

3 Q. And do you know what happened in June and July?

4 A. In June and July?

5 Q. 1995.

6 A. 1995. Yes, yes. I think that a lot of troops, their troops, left

7 Sarajevo to go to Mount Igman, and they moved across the mountain in the

8 direction of our brigade and they moved further up north to other axes.

9 It could be observed as they climbed up Mount Igman and as they left

10 Butmir, Hrasnica.

11 Q. So were you able to see that from the place you were? And how

12 were they leaving? What route did they take as they moved towards those

13 axes?

14 A. Well, I was able to see that from my home. When I went there to

15 bring some humanitarian aid, supplies, to my relatives or to do some work

16 in the garden, I was able to see them move out of the tunnel and I was

17 able to observe the entire route moving -- leading to Mount Igman. They

18 had done so before in 1994. But on the other side, as they climbed down

19 Mount Igman, we were also able to see that there were columns and columns,

20 military columns, fighting vehicles, and infantry, a large number of

21 troops leaving -- getting out of the tunnel. We could see that.

22 Q. Do you know if there were any casualties, military or civilian,

23 that summer?

24 A. 1995?

25 Q. Yes, that's at the very end.

Page 7000

1 A. Yes, I do know that because in August, in late August, my

2 father-in-law was seriously wounded - my wife told me that when I got

3 home - in a church in Blazuj, at Ilidza. That was during a wedding.

4 Muslim forces fired several shells that hit the church. All the wedding

5 guests were wounded. He was seriously wounded, and some other people were

6 also seriously wounded, but I know for sure about my father-in-law.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, with respect, this was an incident

9 that was not disclosed in any regard in the 65 ter summary for this

10 witness, and I will be, of course, cross-examining him on that. I may try

11 or seek to cross-examine him with some additional documentation as a

12 result.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't get any

15 interpretation.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why is that? I can tell you what Ms. Edgerton

17 said.

18 Well, I'll ask Ms. Edgerton to repeat it.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I just wanted to indicate that this was

20 not an incident which was disclosed in any regard in the 65 ter summary

21 for this witness. I'm not mounting an objection, but I'm going to -- I'm

22 indicating right now I'm going to be cross-examining him on that, and I

23 may seek to cross-examine him with some additional documentation to that

24 which was disclosed at the beginning of his testimony.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on.

Page 7001

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I simply would like to know

2 if the witness could tell us in the area where he lived in this period

3 that he was mostly talking about, so in this area where he lived, in the

4 areas where he participated in those conflicts, if he could tell us how

5 many civilians were killed or wounded and how many of his fellow fighters,

6 soldiers.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, that's simply not

9 relevant.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, if this is not relevant

12 and if it is not relevant that so many lives were lost in the combat

13 activities, even on this side, and that this side faced a necessity, in

14 particular in a period when it did not launch any offensives anymore, then

15 if we are to accept what my learned colleague from the Prosecution has

16 said, then the Defence should rest its case right now and not deal with

17 any issues. If this is not relevant - and I'm not talking about the tu

18 quoque principle; I'm talking about --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you talking about?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- combat activities --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you talking about? Show us how it is

22 relevant to an issue in the indictment. Because I'm inclined to agree

23 with the Prosecutor, and I'll consult my colleagues, unless you can

24 persuade me otherwise.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We wrote a motion today

Page 7002

1 discussing all those issues, and I believe that this motion that was

2 submitted regarding the request not to call the next witness, I think that

3 we addressed this very issue in that motion.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the main reason why I disallowed

5 the Prosecutor's motion was that in paragraph 7 of your response you said

6 the witness would be speaking about the geographical location of the

7 hospital surrounded by hills controlled by the ABiH. That's an issue in

8 this case, who controlled the hills. I have no interest, the Chamber has

9 absolutely no interest, in the number of Serbs that were killed, unless it

10 relates to a specific issue, no matter how hurtful that may be to you or

11 to the witness.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have told you before that I am not conducting

14 an historical or sociological survey into the Sarajevo conflict.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm asking for 30

16 seconds to consult with my colleague.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours did

20 not mention paragraph 14 of our submission in connection with the motion

21 to exclude a witness, but all the victims in this conflict show that the

22 VRS was not facing civilians as a population and nothing more, but there

23 were two warring sides, and it was not that civilians predominated on one

24 side, and that's what we explained in your submission. All the victims, I

25 will to God that there had been none on either side, but it all shows that

Page 7003

1 it was not civilians opposing the VRS, as the indictment claims. And

2 that's the major issue here, because according to the allegations in the

3 indictment, it was always civilians facing the Army of Republika Srpska,

4 but it was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in fact, that had civilians on

5 both sides under its control. And it was not civilians who were facing

6 the VRS but another army.

7 All the civilian victims on either side, and I regret that there

8 were any civilian victims on either side, are a result of the fact that

9 there were two armies facing one another. The indictment alleges that

10 civilians were being fired on as if there were no two opposing armies.

11 Therefore, the casualties on both sides show precisely this, and

12 the Army of Republika Srpska was not facing civilians. Had that been the

13 case, this would be the most horrendous crime in the history of

14 civilisation, if that were so.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, do you have anything to say in

18 reply?

19 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.

20 Let me consult with Mr. Waespi for a moment on this one, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, so are you saying, then, that you

23 will be bringing evidence through this witness that the victims in this

24 part of the conflict were not civilians but -- but what? This is what I'm

25 not clear about. What will you be saying?

Page 7004

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am not drawing a distinction

2 between civilians and soldiers. What I'm saying is that there were

3 victims on both sides who were both civilians and soldiers. I'm just

4 trying to submit that the Army of Republika Srpska did not have before it

5 civilians, but instead it had before it a strong, well-armed army,

6 especially in the time-period relative to the indictment. And some

7 foreign observers even said that this other army was stronger than the

8 VRS. Therefore, the VRS was not targeting civilians at any point, but it

9 was doing what is usually done in armed conflicts. And I can go into this

10 further when the time comes. However, the indictment is representing the

11 case as if the VRS had before it civilians and was firing on civilians.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't understand the Prosecution to be

13 saying that at some time the VRS did not fight with the ABiH army; I

14 understand them to be saying that at some time the VRS specifically

15 targeted civilians and that was done as part of the war strategy.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is but one

17 segment of the indictment. We will challenge each one of those

18 incidents. In our view, not a single one of those incidents which are

19 supposed to be representative of the actions of the VRS has been proved

20 beyond reasonable doubt. The entire indictment rests on the case that

21 everything the VRS did was done against civilian facilities and civilians.

22 Nowhere in the counts in the indictment and the paragraphs of the

23 indictment is it mentioned that this was an armed conflict between two

24 armies on those locations. I could do again what I did the other day.

25 Every time it says "the civilian population of Sarajevo," the civilian

Page 7005

1 population of Sarajevo; however, the civilian population of Sarajevo is a

2 very broad concept, this includes Grbavica, this includes Nedzarici, this

3 includes Ilidza, the civilian population of Sarajevo also includes

4 Hadzici.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]...

6 MS. EDGERTON: What troubles me in all this, Your Honour, is that

7 I can't seem to get away, because I see this theme repeated, from what

8 appears to be an assertion by Mr. Tapuskovic that, if I understand him

9 correctly, that the victims in this conflict were not civilians. I've

10 just heard him say something to this effect again, Your Honours. And if

11 that's one of the defences that Mr. Tapuskovic is going to put forward on

12 behalf of his client, it's something that should have been put to the

13 witnesses as part of the Prosecution's case.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Maybe so, but that doesn't prevent him from

15 putting it now. In an ideal case, yes, in an ideal situation, yes, I

16 agree, it should have been put forward as part of the defence through

17 cross-examination, but I don't believe that precludes him from putting it

18 now.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, the problem the

21 Trial Chamber faces is to understand what your defence strategy is,

22 because we have an indictment, we have an accused, and we need to

23 understand what you are saying to see whether he is proved responsible or

24 not. This is what we are currently doing at the moment.

25 So in this case, you have mentioned the incident that has been

Page 7006

1 explained by the witness. This is in 1995, this happened in his village,

2 and he tells a story and he tells us how the -- the representatives of his

3 community who were attending a wedding were hit by shells in the church

4 and a lot of the guests were injured in the process. This piece of

5 evidence which you are adducing, what are you trying to prove thereby?

6 Does this mean that among the Serb population there were people who were

7 injured and that there were casualties, and on the other hand, there are

8 also people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Muslims who were also -- faced the

9 same plight who were injured?

10 Are you saying, in other words, that there was collateral damage

11 on both sides and this was due to the fighting between the two armies? So

12 by telling us that there were Serb victims, you are challenging the

13 submission of the Prosecution; in other words, the Army of Republika

14 Srpska was deliberating targeting the civilian population. Is that what

15 you're saying?

16 Let me resume. It is because the ABiH army caused collateral

17 damage on the Serb side that the victims -- part of the ABiH army can't

18 have been deliberately targeted by the Republika Srpska. Is that what you

19 are trying to prove?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honour,

21 Judge Mindua, you have just defined what is at issue here. Why victims of

22 the Serb side among civilians and soldiers and why the casualties on the

23 Bosniak side among civilians and soldiers. And we come to the time-period

24 concerning the accused, Milosevic. What I'm saying is that that was a

25 time when there were quite a few lulls in the fighting and at that time

Page 7007

1 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was far stronger than the Army of Republika

2 Srpska, so the Army of Republika Srpska was unable to carry out any

3 operations or activities. I'm not dealing with history here, and if need

4 be, I can drop the historian I was intending to call. What we have to

5 look at are the circumstances that existed in the relevant time-period.

6 Why would there be victims on the Serb side if this was not an armed

7 conflict.

8 The Prosecution case which one can see running through the

9 indictment from the first count onwards, that they were shelling the

10 civilian population of Sarajevo. So this case that the civilian

11 population were the targets does not hold water, and this is the main case

12 in the indictment. One cannot have victims on only one side. Why would

13 there be victims on the other side if there was no conflict? We are

14 challenging, we are absolutely challenging.

15 You mentioned collateral damage. We will certainly be dealing

16 with that here, and it's certainly something that can be discussed here.

17 But that the only aim and intention of the Army of the Republika Srpska

18 was to fire on civilians is something I absolutely exclude. The Defence

19 has many documents and witnesses to show the reverse, that the Army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was, in fact, targeting civilians. But in fact, we can

21 only speak of collateral damage in this two-sided conflict, because the

22 casualties on the Serb side, both military and civilian, are not

23 unconnected to everything that was going on. There might have been people

24 retaliating for something they themselves experienced personally. But to

25 put the case that the Army of Republika Srpska was facing only civilians

Page 7008

1 and targeting civilians and civilian facilities only, if this was its only

2 goal, if that would be proved, then the judgement against General Galic

3 and any judgement that might be passed against General Milosevic would

4 show that this was one of the most horrendous crimes ever committed.

5 I would like to add, Your Honours, by your leave, that in my

6 country at present -- may I go on?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we have heard enough.

8 Mr. Waespi.

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I would just like to make one brief point

10 because it almost turned into a closing argument. What the Defence

11 consistently disregards are that even during what the Defence says are

12 lulls and I think the witness said March to October 1994 and January to

13 June 1994 [sic], although the witness sort of talked about August 1995, we

14 have numerous incidents of attacks on civilians inside the confrontation

15 lines. We have sniping incidents. We have attacks by air-bombs during

16 these periods the Defence calls lulls. So even during that period -- or

17 during that period, there is certainly no issue of collateral damage and

18 the Defence just disregards that, or these other incidents of

19 indiscriminate shelling into civilian areas, the Defence brushes it aside.

20 Just look at the indictment, look at the incidents, the shelled

21 incidents, we even dropped the third, Your Honour. These are illustrative

22 examples of sniping of civilians inside the confrontation line and that's

23 the issue and that's, I suggest, what the Defence should be opposing.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber disallows the question.

Page 7009

1 Let's move on.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, for your recollection I could read

3 out the question to you again. You asked the witness if he could tell how

4 many civilians were killed or wounded and how many of his fellow fighters,

5 soldiers. That was the question and we have disallowed it, and we kindly

6 ask you to move on.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This question that has been

8 disallowed, should I understand that to mean that I cannot ask anyone

9 anymore about what happened to people from the other side in these

10 activities and the combat if that is the decision --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Carry on. Each case will be determined on its

12 own merits.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I'm going to wait, but

14 then I'm in a dilemma because of that situation. Perhaps the Defence will

15 have to do something over the next few days in some sense. Perhaps we

16 will decide then to ask for time to prepare to submit our closing

17 statement. I don't know if we're going to be able to do that, because we

18 believe that in circumstances like these the Defence has been prevented

19 from justly conducting its case, and it can happen that very soon we can

20 ask to maybe hear an expert, perhaps not even an expert, and then to thank

21 you, and then to --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic --

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- move towards closing the case.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you have heard the Chamber's

25 ruling. Move on to your next question. I don't want to hear arguments.

Page 7010

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm going to have to take

2 my arguments quickly. I thank the witness very much. I have no other

3 questions. And I thank Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

6 Q. Witness, can you hear me and understand me in your own language?

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. I don't have too many questions of you and we'll probably take a

9 break before I'm concluded, but perhaps we can begin with something rather

10 general. Mr. Witness, you've never met the accused in this case, have

11 you?

12 A. I never met him, no.

13 Q. You've never met any senior staff whatsoever of the

14 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, have you?

15 A. That is right, no.

16 Q. You're not then aware -- you have no personal knowledge of any

17 orders that they might have issued regarding the shelling of Bosnian-held

18 areas of Sarajevo, the sniping of those areas, or the use of air-bombs

19 against those parts of Sarajevo that were held by Bosnian forces, do you?

20 A. The question is too long. I didn't understand it, but I think

21 that it's like this. I don't know. I never had the opportunity to

22 receive or to have access to any documents. I wasn't at that level, to be

23 able to see something like that during the war.

24 Q. During the course of the conflict, from April 1992 until November

25 1995, you were an ordinary soldier, weren't you, a soldier in the

Page 7011

1 trenches, if we can call it like that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On Bosnian Serb-held territory. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. During the course of the conflict, you never had occasion to

6 travel into any parts of the city of Sarajevo that were held by Bosnian

7 forces, did you?

8 A. No, I never did go.

9 Q. Never having been inside that territory, you were never in a

10 position to see or personally experience the bombardment of that

11 territory, the sniping of that territory, the privation suffered by

12 anybody, civilians in particular who lived inside those lines, did you?

13 A. I didn't go and I couldn't experience the suffering of those

14 people, and I regret their suffering. But I also went through my own

15 suffering in my own way that -- at the hands of their army.

16 Q. I understand you have views on that, and you can be certain that I

17 sympathise with those. But I wanted to ask you: You've, before you're

18 testifying today, not had an opportunity to look at the indictment against

19 the accused in this case, have you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you don't then know that he stands charged with crimes against

22 the civilian population inside that part of Sarajevo that was held by

23 Bosnian forces, do you?

24 A. I know that from the media.

25 Q. And the only thing you can tell us today is of what you saw or

Page 7012

1 heard from other people about what happened outside those confrontation

2 lines, isn't it?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This question I believe should

5 not be permitted, if he found out and in what way he found out. I think

6 that we need to remain within the limits of what this witness can say. I

7 think that the way it was framed by my learned friend is something that is

8 not permissible. But I'll leave it up to Your Honours to decide.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand why you say it's not

10 permissible. She's merely trying to find out the source of the

11 information that he's giving us today. How did he acquire that

12 information? Did he hear it from anybody else?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The question was outside of the

14 bounds, so it was outside the confrontation lines. The witness said that

15 he didn't understand, but I didn't understand either. Which confrontation

16 lines?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question was: "The only thing you can tell

18 us today is of what you saw or heard from other people about what

19 happened outside those confrontation lines?"

20 What's the answer to that, Witness?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the war -- I cannot

22 answer that because some things I saw, some things I heard, some things I

23 don't know about. They were maybe passed on by someone else. You hear

24 information from someone else.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

Page 7013

1 One more question before the break or --

2 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps a good moment to take the break --


4 MS. EDGERTON: -- because I would show an exhibit after this, and

5 we can set that up during the break.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Witness, I'm going to be very brief with you now. Just a couple

12 of questions based on what you've said earlier today. You talked in your

13 testimony on -- about page 16 about columns and columns of troops and

14 vehicles, military vehicles, and infantry coming out of the tunnel. And

15 what I'd like to know about that -- in fact, let me ask you. You couldn't

16 actually see the exit from the tunnel, could you? You couldn't actually

17 see the vehicles coming out of the tunnel, could you?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. I think probably one last question then. How far -- or are you in

20 a position to estimate approximately how far from the Sarajevo city

21 centre, let's say Marin Dvor area, how far it is from there to Trnovo as

22 the crow flies.

23 A. Trnovo is 24 kilometres away, so from the bus and the train

24 station in Sarajevo to Trnovo, it's about 24 kilometres.

25 Q. Those are all the questions I have for you, Mr. Witness. And

Page 7014

1 thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would you please

4 permit me a direct question? If not, you can deny me the right to put

5 that question. I would like to ask the witness if he had ever heard about

6 the order to find a civilian and deprive him of or fire at him. Did he

7 ever hear of an order to that effect?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean by "direct," that it doesn't arise from

9 the cross-examination? If we allow it, then the Prosecutor will be

10 allowed, of course, to ask another question.

11 Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that I have never heard

13 of such an order from anyone or anywhere during the war.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] And -- well, had somebody said something to that

16 effect to you - and this is my last question - what would you have said or

17 done?

18 A. Well, I'm not an idiot to obey something like that, do something

19 like that, I can think with my own head.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Witness -- well, I want to find out

22 whether the Prosecutor wishes?

23 MS. EDGERTON: No re-examination.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: She does not wish to ask any questions. So

25 Witness T-39, that concludes your evidence. We are grateful to you for

Page 7015

1 coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to leave.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your next witness?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness will be Witness

6 T-42, Dr. Milan Pejic.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

13 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not a

15 protected witness.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No protective measures have been sought, so we

17 don't need the blind.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please tell us your first and last

23 name.

24 A. My name is Milan Pejic.

25 Q. And you were born on the 13th of June, 1948?

Page 7016

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. In Sarajevo, in Blazuj, in the Blazuj neighbourhood, in the

3 section of the city called Ilidza?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You finished elementary school in Blazuj?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. You finished the gymnasium in Ilidza?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. And the medical faculty in Sarajevo in 198 -- in 1974?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. You specialised in the diseases of the ear, throat, and nose, in

12 the Kosevo clinic in 1983?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. In the hospital in Kosevo, you worked until -- from 1979?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. When the events in question began in Sarajevo in 1992, you were

17 the director of the clinic, the ENT clinic, at Kosevo?

18 A. Yes, that is correct, the ear, nose, and throat clinic.

19 Q. Until the 8th of May, 1992?

20 A. Yes, you are right, but on the 8th of May, 1992, was the last time

21 that I was at the clinic. I was discharged of my duties as director of

22 the clinic a little bit later, and I wasn't informed about it directly.

23 Q. Well, let's not go into all of that, and I'm just asking you,

24 before the 8th of May were there any problems with some people who were

25 wounded somewhere; and if so, what happened in relation to that?

Page 7017

1 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.


3 MS. EDGERTON: I'm going to renew the objections I made with the

4 previous witness. Wounded people before the 8th of May, 1992, in my

5 submission isn't relevant to the indictment.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, how do you respond to that?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Until yesterday the Prosecution

8 was putting questions to the witnesses from 1992 onwards, and the

9 indictment includes the time-period when we're talking about general

10 circumstances from 1992, that's what it states in each count of the

11 indictment. And now all of a sudden -- I would be very grateful if we

12 were just to deal with the time-frame of the indictment, but the

13 indictment every day speaks of the time-period from the 7th of April,

14 1992.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but that doesn't mean that any and

16 everything that happened from 1992 is relevant, you know. Your task is to

17 show us how the evidence about the wounded people that you are seeking to

18 elicit from this witness is relevant to the indictment. Is it relevant to

19 any paragraph in the indictment? Is there any paragraph in the indictment

20 that addresses this issue?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] So far at least it is possible

22 and so far at least we talked about -- well, paragraph 29, I don't have it

23 in front of me, that it was not disputed that there was an armed conflict

24 in the area of Yugoslavia as well as the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Does that mean now that we cannot talk about at all about things --

Page 7018

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you want to tell us why do you want this

2 evidence? Why do you want this evidence of the wounded people? You must

3 want it for a purpose. What is your reason?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, he's going to tell you that

5 it was not possible to help those people; and for that reason, they died

6 and they were wounded. Why wasn't it possible to give them assistance?

7 We can explain. In relation to these two people and what prompted him to

8 continue to act as a doctor who had given the Hippocratic oath.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's precisely the problem. How is this

10 anything more than evidence of Serb suffering. Evidence of Serb suffering

11 is not, per se, relevant. You must be able to link it to some issue in

12 the indictment because the indictment is about ABiH -- principally about

13 ABiH civilians who were targeted. So merely for you in response to

14 provide evidence of Serb suffering doesn't answer the charges. And what's

15 more, it may be said not to be relevant, and that's the problem you are

16 facing.

17 [Microphone not activated]

18 There are other matters which on the basis of the response that

19 you gave to the Prosecutor's motion to exclude the evidence of this

20 witness, which are -- are very relevant. The -- identified the -- what I

21 call paragraph 7, the -- that he would testify on all aspects of the Zica

22 Hospital's daily running, of which he was a director; in particular on the

23 military status of patients; the geographical location of the hospital

24 surrounded by hills controlled by the ABiH. That's what is relevant: The

25 geographical location of the hospital and that it was surrounded by hills

Page 7019

1 allegedly controlled by the ABiH. That's the most important aspect of

2 the -- of this witness's evidence.

3 Mr. Waespi.

4 MR. WAESPI: Yes, just a general point. We have the situation

5 before with a witness I think of Mr. Sachdeva. When we are talking about

6 what the witness is going to say and the importance or the relevancy for

7 Your Honours, I think it would be prudent to have the witness removed,

8 especially if it's a lengthy discussion. It's also, I think, not fair to

9 expose the witness to these procedural witnesses. I just saw that

10 Mr. Tapuskovic said the witness is going to say about this, this, this.

11 I'm not saying the witness is couching his answers to that, but if we

12 anticipate lengthy discussions about what the witness is going to say and

13 the relevance of it, I think as its been done in other Trial Chambers, I

14 think the witness --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not following that procedure; I don't see any

16 merit in it.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

18 ask you to also take note of paragraphs 13 and 14 of our submissions

19 regarding this doctor, because we dealt with a question there that is

20 quite important to us, us in the Defence, and I --

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

23 -- that he will testify about the geographical location of the

24 hospital, you know, and the question of who controlled the surrounding

25 hills. And the other one which follows, that he will testify about the

Page 7020

1 entire population within a radius of several kilometres, still within the

2 boundaries of the city of Sarajevo, going to that hospital for all kinds

3 of medical care between 22nd of April, 1992, and the Dayton Accords. I

4 don't myself immediately see its relevance. What would be the relevance

5 of that? Can you explain that?

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And the last paragraph, paragraph

7 14, Your Honour, Judge Robinson, it's actually -- it finalizes everything,

8 and evidently you ...

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, we have a difficulty in

10 understanding what you are trying to say in paragraph 14.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask the interpreters to translate

13 paragraph 14, because we had some difficulty understanding it, and it may

14 have arisen from a translation issue.

15 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a very

16 serious matter, in my opinion, really important. When you quoted our --

17 our answer, our arguments, we were quite surprised that you left out, so

18 to speak, the conclusion of our arguments. Because actually all of our

19 argument is -- is organised according to what comes before and what comes

20 after. You have to read the whole thing in the right sequence --


22 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] -- and I wasn't quite sure, but

23 now I understand that you didn't get a translation in English of that

24 particular paragraph, did you?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have an official translation and it matters not

Page 7021

1 that I did not mention it explicitly, because I did not say that this

2 evidence will be allowed to give will be confined to any particular

3 paragraph. In fact, I said explicitly at the very end that the whole

4 purpose of the decision was to answer the Prosecution's motion which was

5 to exclude his evidence. And that still left the Trial Chamber with its

6 obligation to see that any evidence given is relevant.

7 So it's perfectly open to Mr. Tapuskovic to seek to lead any

8 evidence from any of the paragraphs mentioned in the response. In fact,

9 even if it is not there, the Trial Chamber will decide in the usual way as

10 to whether an issue of relevance arises and determine it. But I'm going

11 to ask the interpreter to translate for us paragraph 14 of the Defence

12 response, and for that purpose we should put it on the -- on the ELMO.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, could somebody please read the

14 text that needs to be translated and then it can be translated into

15 English.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic, would you read the text so that it

17 can be translated into English.

18 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

19 "Given that the number of patients cared for at the Zica Hospital

20 in the time mentioned and that the nature of their wounds and the causes

21 of their deceased show together with other evidence introduced by Defence

22 that contrary to the indictment, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was not

23 fighting the civilian population, as that population could not have been

24 the origin of so many deaths and so many wounded people on the territory

25 under its control. And the military activities of the Sarajevo-Romanija

Page 7022

1 Corps were not aimed at the civilian population."

2 Your Honour, I want to add one thing. The link introduced in this

3 paragraph, since the paragraphs are to be read in sequence, so there is a

4 legal reasoning behind it, and you will find that link in paragraph 11.

5 That's where we speak of the relevant paragraph in the indictment, that

6 paragraph with which the testimony and the facts on which the testimony

7 rest are to be linked.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the paragraph in the indictment that's

9 referred to?

10 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] It's all the counts, that's the

11 counts from 1 to 7.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not very helpful, Ms. Isailovic. Counts 1

13 to 7, I would have thought you would be a little more specific. I'll

14 ask -- I'm still not clear what the paragraph means. Would either

15 Mr. Tapuskovic or Ms. Isailovic explain the purport of that paragraph

16 which was translated.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we really weighed

18 every word in our motion, bearing in mind, in particular, the general

19 allegations in the paragraphs of the indictment that pertain to

20 Dragomir Milosevic. And if you were to quote from any paragraph, you

21 would see that all the activities from paragraph, let's say, 5 only

22 discuss the sniper and artillery campaign against the civilian population

23 in Sarajevo. Where -- how come that there were so many civilian

24 casualties on the other side? But leaving that aside, if you read any

25 paragraph thereafter, in particular the counts of the indictment, they

Page 7023

1 only talk about civilian targets. And there has been no evidence as yet

2 that the Republika Srpska Army had as its sole goal to fire on civilian

3 targets and people living in Sarajevo, and that this was the sole reason

4 for guiding all of their activities.

5 What we wanted to say is that because there were civilian

6 casualties in other areas, we draw no distinction in Sarajevo between

7 Grbavica and Stari Grad, between Nedzarici, Vrace, Ilidza, Hadzici,

8 Hrasnica, we make no distinction. There were tragedies in all of those

9 areas, and the Republika Srpska army -- never did the Republika Srpska

10 army position itself against --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I fail to understand the meaning

14 of the sentence in paragraph 14 in which you say, and I'm quoting:

15 [Interpretation] "Contrary to the counts on the -- in the indictment, the

16 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was not fighting the civilian population because

17 that population could not have been the origin of so many wounded and

18 fatalities on the territory that it controlled."

19 [In English] Or are you saying here that victims were imported to

20 the crime scenes or -- what is the meaning of this allegation or this

21 sentence in your paragraph 14?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it doesn't say that here.

23 That's not what it means. We wrote this text together in French and then

24 it was interpreted by my colleague and I am sure that she is much better

25 or no worse than I am in the niceties of the French language, but this is

Page 7024

1 not what we are alleging. Of course we will be showing in some cases that

2 this was done in some cases. But I cannot now deal with specific cases.

3 As a matter of principle, no, this was just this thing that you said, but

4 my colleague can explain those nuances and there were such events but this

5 was not the general, widespread occurrence. We will be dealing that when

6 the time comes.

7 Perhaps my colleague could assist Judge Harhoff because of her

8 ability with the French language and its nuances, if you allow her to do

9 so.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I would allow her to do so. Please just tell us

11 what it means.

12 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm sorry that I wasn't able

13 to listen to the English translation at the same time that I was reading

14 it. I would probably have to look at the transcript of the English

15 translation, but as I explained -- well, that may be sort of French

16 formulation of things. The paragraph is a reasoning, and as I was saying

17 there is a logical sequence of the paragraphs, the end of it being the

18 conclusion of the argument. If you take everything that was explained

19 before, what we're saying, what the Defence is saying here, is that the

20 indictment is blaming the accused for having organised a campaign --

21 they're calling the acts of the accused by a campaign of sniping and

22 shelling aimed at civilians, which is -- which is what the indictment does

23 throughout. Basically, as my colleague was saying, it appears in every

24 paragraph, and it culminates in the counts, 1 to 7, and that's what we're

25 talking about throughout is this campaign of shelling and sniping against

Page 7025

1 civilians.

2 From this, we draw the qualification of war crimes and crimes

3 against humanity. But actually, the facts on which this particular

4 witness as well as other witnesses can make a statement if you ask them

5 direct questions about the victims that -- that were on the territory

6 controlled by the VRS, what you can ask these people to do is precisely to

7 state, to establish the fact -- and it seems clear to me that the

8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was not fighting civilians. Hence, because of the

9 number of the victims, because of the type of wounds that they had, shells

10 and -- mortar shells and bullets, et cetera, we can draw that conclusion

11 and we ask the Chamber to draw the same conclusion, which is that these

12 wounds are the results of military acts, that is, military fighting; that

13 facing the ABiH, we don't have a simple population of civilian victims but

14 an army.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Isailovic. We've heard enough.

16 We'll allow the question.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Doctor, we have to be very specific and we really have to deal

19 with the key issues pertaining to your job and your experiences. I wanted

20 to conduct this examination-in-chief in a different way, but guided as I

21 am by the Trial Chamber, I will now move on to the specific question.

22 What happened with the two wounded people? I don't know who they are, but

23 what happened to them in that period, on the eve of the 8th of May?

24 A. I have to say that all my life, up until the Dayton Peace

25 Agreements, I had lived in Blazuj, that's my home -- that's my home, and I

Page 7026

1 travelled to the hospital in Kosevo. The last time that I was able to get

2 to Kosevo was the 7th of May. After that, it was physically impossible to

3 go to -- in Kosevo to go to work. If I had been able to go to work after

4 that, I would have done so, but in early April, the Ministry of Health of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina issued a decree ordering all the health care workers to

6 report to the first health care institution, the nearest health care

7 institution, in case of an imminent threat of war or a state of emergency.

8 Because there was an infirmary or a health care unit in Blazuj, I went

9 there. I was actually called by a doctor and some nurses there, to treat

10 those two wounded men and because of the way the building was constructed,

11 we couldn't bring the two wounded men who were on the stretchers inside

12 and we couldn't treat them. But unfortunately because of the nature of

13 their injuries, they couldn't have been saved anyway. I think it was

14 sometime in the 20th of April. I don't know if I'm answering your

15 question.

16 Q. Yes, but what did you try to do but you were unable to?

17 A. We tried to bring them into the room where we could treat them.

18 This was a GP clinic. You can take somebody's blood pressure, you can

19 administer a shot, but that's about it.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, your colleague just gave an

21 explanation of paragraph 14 and some other paragraphs in your response,

22 and that was what prompted me to answer -- to allow the question. She

23 made a case for the question to be answered because part of the Defence

24 case, as I understand it, is that wounds were suffered by people and those

25 wounds were clearly inflicted by -- by military weaponry. I don't know

Page 7027

1 what the Chamber will make of the case when we come to assess it at the

2 end. I don't know what we will make of the argument, but that is the

3 position that she presented. And as far as I'm concerned, it is on that

4 basis that I allowed the question. That's the kind of evidence that you

5 should be eliciting from this witness, not that he was prevented from

6 carrying out his -- his functions. I don't see the relevance of that, and

7 pretty soon Ms. Edgerton is going to be jumping up again, you know. And

8 we don't want to put Ms. Edgerton to that --

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I understand

10 very well for your guidance and I thank you for it, but I wanted a doctor

11 to show us the problems that they had been encountering.

12 Q. Doctor, at any rate, could you please tell the Judges what

13 happened. I will no longer be cautioning you in any way, I will not be

14 asking you questions, but could you please tell us what you were doing in

15 the hospital throughout the conflict.

16 A. Well, you know quite well that there were two hospitals in

17 Sarajevo, the general hospitals, the Kosevo and the former military

18 hospital. In the area where I lived, there were no hospitals. As early

19 as in April 1992, people felt very un -- unsafe, insecure about going to

20 the hospital in Kosevo to -- for any treatment, for wounds or anything.

21 In April, late April, an attack was carried out in Ilidza at a hotel in

22 particular where there was an UNPROFOR base, and 35 people were killed --

23 were wounded and 14 people were killed in that attack. And it was

24 impossible to treat those people in Sarajevo because people couldn't

25 physically go there, and they didn't want to go to Sarajevo. And at that

Page 7028

1 moment I, as a doctor, because I lived in that place, I treated the people

2 in a motel, which was assigned by the Crisis Staff or the TO, I'm not sure

3 what they were, for this purpose. I was able to give them just first aid

4 to a very limited extent, and then those people were transported by

5 various routes and means to Pale, so not to the military hospital, not to

6 the Kosevo Hospital, but to Pale.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I would not want to qualify you

8 as someone who is bent on having your own way, but it does seem like that,

9 you know. What is the point of that evidence, the evidence which he has

10 just given?

11 I'm very sorry to hear, doctor, that you were not able to treat

12 the wounded people in your own hospital, I'm sorry about that, but it

13 doesn't help me in assessing this case. It has no bearing on this case.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I know that

15 but how were those wounds inflicted? What caused these wounds? What

16 happened? Let the doctor tell you --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask him that. You're leading the evidence. Ask

18 him that. This is your witness; control him.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honours, but I

20 feel so hemmed-in. I don't feel free to even ask him those simplest

21 things.

22 Q. What caused these wounds and how -- how were these people wounded

23 and how many of these wounded people there were in the four years of war,

24 especially in the latter periods.

25 A. Well, while the hospital functioned in three years and ten months,

Page 7029

1 we treated 5.800 people. I have the relevant records and I can place them

2 at the disposal of anything who wants to check these allegations. A large

3 number or large proportion of those wounded were civilians including

4 children.

5 I made an analysis for 1993, and in 1993 300 civilians were

6 wounded, 61 children, and during our work in hospital, 440 people died of

7 their wounds. I have to say that all those people who were wounded who

8 received only minor injuries, never got to the hospital that I ran because

9 there were health care centres in this area. Many of the wounded,

10 especially at the beginning of the war, were shipped directly to Pale and

11 Sokolac. So this is not the total. The number is higher, that's for

12 sure.

13 The wounds were caused by explosives, bullet-rounds, by sniper

14 rounds. In the period while the hospital was in operation - I don't know

15 whether this is relevant for the case or not - but in one period we

16 treated patients that lived in an area controlled by the HVO, Kiseljak and

17 Central Bosnia. I don't know whether this is enough for my answer. I

18 could talk about it for days, but I don't want to.

19 Q. Could you please tell us, do you have for each of these cases, for

20 each of these persons, do you have records?

21 A. Yes, I have records, definitely, for every person who entered the

22 hospital, the protocol for all the patients who were hospitalised, we have

23 a special protocol for all the patients who were -- who underwent surgery.

24 And we actually submitted all those records to the Kasindol hospital,

25 where I currently am employed as a director, and they are in the files

Page 7030

1 there. Everybody can go there and check the records to see if they're

2 accurate.

3 Q. And were you able as a doctor - you told us that you are an ears,

4 nose, and throat specialist - to notice what kind of wounds were

5 predominant in the people who were brought there and on the basis of your

6 immediate experience were you able to determine what caused the injuries?

7 A. Well, I can't see the cursor, so I don't know when I can start

8 with my answer, but at any rate I have been a doctor for over 30 years.

9 And at the time -- at the time when those unfortunate conflicts broke out,

10 I had already accumulated quite a lot of experience, and I was able to

11 determine the cause of the wounds. We also took X-rays of every wounded

12 person, so it was possible to determine on the basis of the appearance of

13 the wound and the examination of the patient what caused the wounds.

14 Those were massive injuries caused by various kinds of explosives.

15 We also had wounds caused by rounds fired from infantry weapons and

16 during the lulls or cease-fires. Cease-fire agreements were signed at

17 several times. We saw injuries caused by low-calibre weapons. We

18 concluded that snipers had fired those shots because there had been no --

19 there had been no combat -- there was no combat at that time.

20 Q. And what did you base your conclusions on?

21 A. Well, on the basis of X-rays, examinations, operative

22 examinations, and also information that we obtained from those who

23 actually brought the patients in, sometimes those were family members or

24 whoever brought the patients in.

25 Q. Who -- and where were those wounds caused, what part of the body?

Page 7031

1 A. Well, at times we were able to determine on the basis of the place

2 where the injury was where actually this person was wounded. In some

3 areas people were targeted in the head or in the pelvis or in the chest;

4 in some areas, those people were more humane and they would target limbs.

5 But we knew on the basis of where they had the wounds on their body we

6 were able to determine the location from which they had come from.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I apologise, but I feel again I have

9 to rise at this stage because my submission would be that this could be

10 very relevant evidence if the people that the witness is discussing were

11 killed or injured inside the confrontation lines. And without further

12 detail or specification as to actually who these people were or where they

13 came from, I question the relevancy of this information.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, at that moment --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I'm asking you to respond to the -- to the

18 objection.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I didn't think that I

20 was supposed to respond. I just thought that I should ask my question

21 along those lines. But what this is all about is that the Defence is

22 challenging this central location. What is inside the lines of

23 confrontation? The witness might be able to shed some light on it. Who

24 is holding the hills that dominate the area and that are very important in

25 terms of the terrain relief around Sarajevo, and what was the situation in

Page 7032

1 the area where his hospital was, what is going on there?

2 Because it is the Defence's submission that the confrontation

3 lines and what was inside the confrontation lines can be seen in various

4 frameworks, the framework of Grbavica, of Nedzarici, of the old town, the

5 framework of this area where the doctor worked. He can show you where his

6 hospital was. He can tell you something about the geography of the area

7 where the hospital was, and he could also talk about some of the positions

8 of the Republika Srpska Army. And this is what I wanted to elicit in the

9 course of my examination-in-chief. I wanted to ask him whether the

10 hospital itself was targeted and from what direction.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I would like to talk about the

12 victims and more specifically those people who came to see you in your

13 health centre. Where did these people come from? Were they coming from

14 the area which was under the controlled -- under the control of the

15 Republika Srpska or were they coming from the area under the control of

16 the ABiH? What I mean, these people, your patients, where did they come

17 from?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the area controlled by the Army

19 of Republika Srpska.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The area where you were working,

21 was it close to the confrontation line? From what I understood, you were

22 quite far removed from the confrontation line according to what I

23 understood from what Defence counsel has said.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, can I indicate on the map

25 where we were, and then you can gain an impression of the location of the

Page 7033

1 hospital. The confrontation line --

2 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, we have a cut-out of a map available

3 on e-court which shows great detail and that might assist the witness and

4 everyone in answering Judge Mindua's question. I can offer even two

5 options in terms of a 65 ter number, 02 -- pardon me. 02617A or 02617C,

6 probably 2617C might be the best.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, we appreciate what you have tried to do,

8 but the Prosecutor has offered on e-court a map so that you can look at it

9 and just tell us what it is that you want to say. It's before you now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital was located precisely

11 where I am indicating, in this area here, in that -- no, it was here. I

12 must explain that from the 22nd of April to early November, the hospital

13 was in a motel in this building where I put the cursor now. But as it was

14 quite clear that the war was not about to end, we had to look for another

15 more suitable location for the winter. And we asked the municipality,

16 which gave us a building which had previously been allotted to a company

17 maintaining roads in Sarajevo. And this was on the Sarajevo-Mostar road.

18 It was about 6 kilometres away from Nedzarici as the crow flies, and if

19 you look towards Igman above Vrutak, it was about 5 kilometres or less.

20 The Zica Hospital was located right here. It covered the area, or rather,

21 its catchment area included five municipalities in the broader area of

22 Sarajevo, and according to the information I then had there were about

23 90.000 people living in that area.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness --

Page 7034

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Mindua was concerned to ascertain the

3 distance between the hospital and the confrontation line, but the

4 confrontation line isn't displayed on this map.

5 MS. EDGERTON: It's at the bottom right-hand corner, Your Honours,

6 part of it.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

8 indicate on this map so that Your Honours may understand -- I will switch

9 on this other microphone. Could the witness approach and show where the

10 hospital is and what there is around it and where the separation lines are

11 and where the geographic areas are that overlooked the hospital.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it appears that that may offer a more

13 graphic illustration.

14 Please go ahead, yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital was in this location

16 here, and you can see here that the catchment area of the hospital was on

17 the front line, and the hospital was more or less surrounded. Before the

18 airport was handed to UNPROFOR, we could get out via the airport; after

19 that, we could get out through this line here, and we had to go around

20 this whole part of Sarajevo. The wounded whom we assisted once we were

21 equipped to provide assistance at a higher level had to travel to Pale or

22 to Sokolac for five hours. Sokolac is somewhere here. They travelled for

23 five hours. And in those transports there were others, civilians and

24 soldiers, who were wounded additionally.

25 You can imagine what it meant at that time to drive in military

Page 7035

1 vehicles along macadam roads or dirt roads. The hospital I was in charge

2 of had 80 beds, and every day I assert we had an average of ten wounded a

3 day. Therefore, we always had to have sufficient beds free in order to

4 receive and help the wounded who would be arriving. Our location was

5 here.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. These geographical positions, where were some of those

8 characteristic hills in relation to your hospital? Can you show us that?

9 A. It's hard for me to see that. Igman was behind our backs. Excuse

10 me. I think Igman is here. This part towards Hrasnica -- well, it's hard

11 for me to find my way on this map. I'm no soldier, but I know that the

12 elevations towards Sarajevo, such as Mojmilo, for example, was under BH

13 army control, so was Zuc. I think these locations are somewhere here,

14 Mojmilo and Zuc. Igman was on this side, if I'm correct. I don't know

15 what other location there was. The hill of Stup, that was right here.

16 All these other elevations were far away from us. The only high elevation

17 in this area was this part of Igman. I think it's this part here. I

18 apologise once again for not finding my way so easily on this map, but it

19 was right above the hospital overlooking the hospital.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] -- objection that was

22 made by Ms. Edgerton, and we have gone so far that I need to be reminded

23 what it was.

24 MS. EDGERTON: If I --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Mindua wanted to have some information

Page 7036

1 before the Chamber ruled on that objection. I think it had to do with the

2 evidence about wounded.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours. At page 48, line 14, the

4 Prosecution's position was that the evidence with respect to the wounded

5 was -- killed and wounded was only relevant to these proceedings where the

6 indictment is exclusively concerned with people killed and wounded in

7 Bosnian-held territory; that is, inside the confrontation lines.

8 [Trial Chamber confers].

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: In light of the explanation that has been given,

10 the Chamber allows the question.

11 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, perhaps you'll now find out from the witness

12 about the hills and who held those hills and during what period.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, you've already mentioned Stup, Zuc, Hum, Mojmilo, Igman

15 behind your back. Who was holding all these positions? Can you explain

16 that to Their Honours.

17 A. To the best of my knowledge, although I'm a doctor and not a

18 soldier, the positions you listed were held by the forces of the Bosnian

19 Muslims or the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Thank you. What were you doing, what were you focused on at that

21 time?

22 A. Well, I was a doctor. I was treating people, helping the wounded

23 and the sick, not just I, excuse me, it wasn't just me. I don't want it

24 to appear that I was the only person working in that hospital. That

25 hospital had 26 doctors working in it, 160 people working in that

Page 7037

1 hospital. This was a general hospital. It had a maternity ward,

2 incubators for babies. It was treating the entire population, the

3 population surrounded by the front line on both sides with only a narrow

4 passage out. There was no other protection.

5 Q. Thank you. In this area where your hospital was, did you know

6 something about the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska? For

7 example, did you know the number of soldiers who were there, at least

8 approximately?

9 A. Well, I can't give you a precise answer. I don't have this

10 information, but I assume there could have been 5 or 6.000 soldiers, but I

11 really don't know.

12 Q. Thank you. And how many wounded did you say, 5.000 --

13 A. 5.800 came to that hospital.

14 Q. Can you say something about whether even in the most difficult

15 times you could sometimes cross the airport with the sick or the wounded?

16 A. Yes, we could, but I have to admit that it was a very torturous

17 procedure. We had to explain quite clearly why the case was urgent. Each

18 one of those sick or wounded was additionally checked by airport doctors

19 working for the unit. I think it was the French Battalion, actually. So

20 this happened very rarely with very difficult and torturous procedures and

21 explanations as to why they had to go that way.

22 Q. Well, the patients who had to go the long way around, in addition

23 to being wounded again, did they have other problems because they arrived

24 at their destination late?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the problem -- what's the relevance of

Page 7038

1 that?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, if they could have gone

3 across the airport, they might have been saved because it was an issue of

4 time.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what is the relevance of that if they could

6 have been saved?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a humanitarian issue, but tell me how it

9 relates to the issues in the case.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, it's relevant because there

11 is talk about blockades, encirclement, the difficulty of movement, and

12 this shows --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, move on to another question,

14 please.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Were there any problems with medicines and how did you come by --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Mr. Tapuskovic, you don't seem to be

18 comprehending what I've been saying. We are not interested in a general

19 history of the problem. The evidence must relate to a particular issue in

20 the indictment. So whether there are problems with medicines, I cannot

21 see the relevance of that. Please move on to another question.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In that case I will put a few

23 questions such as the following:

24 Q. Were things easier when there was a cease-fire?

25 A. Certainly, because we would not have large numbers of wounded, but

Page 7039

1 we still had very serious injuries caused by snipers. People were wounded

2 individually, their injuries were very serious, and as I have said, we

3 could tell by the part of the body that was injured - and now I'm

4 referring to both soldiers and civilians indiscriminately - but by the

5 part of the body that was injured, we could tell where they were coming

6 from. It was very, very hard because there were children who were wounded

7 in front of the school, while riding bicycles, in the streets. There was

8 civilians who were wounded, women, children. I have information about

9 this in the case histories, the protocols. You didn't tell me to prepare

10 this and I won't go into it, but that's how it was.

11 Q. So you can substantiate everything you say with the appropriate

12 documentation?

13 A. Yes, I hope so.

14 Q. Can you please also tell the Judges a little bit about the time in

15 between, for example, the period from the end of May until the end of the

16 war, was there anything out of the ordinary that was going on? I'm

17 talking about 1995.

18 A. Yes. In 1995 there were intense attacks, especially in the area

19 covered by the hospital by the forces of the B&H army. There was a

20 well-known offensive in which we had a large number of wounded. It was

21 just shelling, indiscriminate shelling, and other than this I would like

22 to note just one incident that I directly witnessed from the windows of

23 the hospital. It happened on the 28th of August, 1995, in front of the

24 church that was 500 metres away from the hospital. And I watched as

25 shells fell, they were getting closer and closer and --

Page 7040

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]...

2 Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm sorry again, but this has become a

4 recurring theme. The suffering of the people who lived in Bosnian

5 Serb-occupied territory is absolutely regrettable and very tragic, but

6 it's not what is on trial here, Your Honours. So I would object to the

7 relevance of this unless it goes directly to the -- one of the issues

8 closest to the responsibility of the accused in this indictment.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

10 My microphone was not activated. Does it go to any of the issues,

11 this evidence which we are about to hear; if not, we'll just move on to

12 another question.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This specific example that the

14 witness cited can have a certain meaning - I'm not insisting on it,

15 though - but the entire question and all the things that we talked about

16 now is connected to our debate a little bit earlier, and you allowed the

17 witness to speak about things that do have direct links with the combat

18 actions that caused these consequences among the civilians and soldiers.

19 So my question had to do with the key indictment period relating

20 to events between May and the end of the war, and the witness said that at

21 that time there were many civilian casualties. I can go on to ask him if

22 the hospital was sometimes directly hit also.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Please wait for my ruling. Yes, go ahead

24 and ask him.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7041

1 Q. Was the hospital ever directly shelled from any military

2 positions?

3 A. Shells fell around the hospital, quite close to the hospital, on

4 several occasions, and there was a direct hit immediately next to the

5 hospital on the 6th or the 8th of September, 1995, when some of our

6 patients were killed and when some of the hospital staff were wounded. I

7 don't know who fired, but at the time I assume that these would be --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... Ms. Edgerton

9 is on her feet.

10 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I should note that the

11 shelling of the hospital was not in the 65 ter summary nor was it

12 contained in any of the pleadings we received this morning.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

14 It doesn't appear to me, Mr. Tapuskovic, that you have much more

15 to get from this witness on that issue. So move on to another -- another

16 topic, and please remember that you're well past the time allotted for the

17 examination-in-chief.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I actually just wanted to -- and I wanted to finish with that so

20 that's when the intervention of the Prosecutor came. But that offensive

21 that we were talking about, how many patients came to you in that period,

22 primarily civilians, but then all others seeking medical help and what

23 sort of injuries or wounds were involved?

24 A. I really cannot give a proper answer to your question, because I

25 did not prepare for such a question. But it's certain that there were a

Page 7042

1 large number of wounded, but I cannot be precise about the number because

2 I really don't know.

3 Q. And what kinds of wounds were involved?

4 A. These were quite significant wounds, various types of explosive

5 wounds using infantry and other types of weapons or ammunition. They were

6 very destructive injuries, and we invested a lot of effort to save the

7 lives of these people. There was a large number of civilians wounded that

8 were wounded along with soldiers, but I really don't know the number at

9 this point in time.

10 Q. If you were to look at the documentation, would you be able to

11 provide us with a precise number?

12 A. Yes, I would.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, I can begin, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

17 Q. Dr. Pejic, you've said several times in answering questions from

18 Mr. Tapuskovic that you're not a soldier. Is that correct?

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 MS. EDGERTON: I didn't hear a translation of his answer.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I wasn't a soldier. I'm not a

23 military person, I'm a civilian, from the civilian sector, from the Kosevo

24 Hospital. But during the war all people of my age received a war

25 assignment.

Page 7043


2 Q. But --

3 A. The hospital, just let me say this. My hospital was a general

4 hospital where people worked according to a decision by the Secretariat by

5 the Secretariat for National Defence. I received a work duty assignment,

6 I don't know what it's called. But I worked at the hospital without

7 wearing a military uniform, if you understand me. Some staff in that

8 hospital was by establishment, part of the 4th Medical Battalion, but this

9 was less than 50 per cent of the total medical staff which employed 160

10 people. They went through a kind of accelerated training, that's what

11 it's called.

12 So about 70 people of different profiles consisted of this

13 2nd Company of the 4th Medical Battalion that worked at the hospital, the

14 general hospital. We operated as a general hospital directly under the

15 control of the Ministry for Defence of Republika Srpska, but we were not

16 necessarily mobilised.

17 Q. Thank you for that clarification, and you touched on that in your

18 evidence in chief, so I did understand that you were mobilised in your

19 capacity as a medical health professional and you did report for duty in

20 the hospital which you later came to work in. But to go back to my

21 original question, not being a soldier, then you would have no personal

22 knowledge, I take it, of any orders issued by the accused regarding the

23 use of ammunition, shells, bullets, air-bombs, or any action against

24 targets within Bosnian-controlled territory in the city of Sarajevo, would

25 you?

Page 7044

1 A. Absolutely. I didn't have any access or control over that, but I

2 didn't have any control over those who fired at us. You must understand

3 that we were also fired at. I was the eye-witness of two massacres of

4 civilians at the bus station in Ilidza on the 26th -- please let me

5 answer, if you permit me. This is very important. On the 26th of

6 October, 1992, I was directly at the location when the bus stop -- the bus

7 station was hit and when 35 civilians were wounded and eight were killed.

8 The second incident was at a church, it was a wedding of a person, and

9 these were civilians, and you could see it very well from the --

10 Q. Dr. Pejic, you've been in this courtroom when you heard all the

11 parties have long discussions about what is the evidence that is most

12 germane and relevant to the case that we're trying here today. So if you

13 would just let me -- while I understand these are very important to you,

14 let me guide you with my questions and your answers, I would really

15 appreciate that. Thank you.

16 During the course of the conflict, I take it from your testimony

17 in chief you never had occasion to travel into -- no, let me rephrase the

18 question, if I may.

19 What knowledge do you have, Dr. Pejic, about the sniping or

20 shelling of civilians in Sarajevo and the injuries they sustained as a

21 result over the course of the conflict?

22 A. Just indirectly, not directly, because I wasn't there.

23 Q. And that indirect knowledge, how did you gain that? Was it

24 through the media? Was it what people told you or was it from what you

25 read or all of those sources?

Page 7045

1 A. Through the media, by television, because Television Sarajevo

2 quite frequently broadcast segments from the hospital.

3 Q. So you are aware and prepared to concede that there was shelling

4 and sniping of civilians in Sarajevo throughout 1992, right through to

5 1995, throughout the conflict?

6 A. First of all, I really wouldn't be able to comment on your

7 question, but in any case that did happen. As for what happened, how it

8 happened, well first of all I was primarily busy by providing medical

9 treatment to the people that needed it, so I didn't really follow the

10 political or the other developments so much, but I did see something that

11 related to that on television.

12 Q. Did you ever have occasion at any time over the course of the

13 conflict to your recollection to treat civilians who had been injured as a

14 result of shelling or sniping within Bosnian-held territory, from within

15 the confrontation lines?

16 A. How could I have been there when I was on this side? That was

17 simply impossible. People, wounded people, on both sides would go to

18 their own hospitals. Only if somebody of the citizens living in the area

19 that was covered by my hospital but was not of Serb ethnicity, they would

20 come for treatment to the hospital where I worked, where we were

21 providing medical treatment.

22 Q. Out of the number of patients then that you would have treated of

23 non-Serb ethnicity, Bosnian first, what proportion of the patients would

24 they represent, what number?

25 A. I think that there were very few, very few, but in any case it's

Page 7046

1 something that could be counted if we looked at the records. All the

2 people who could come to the hospital were received equally, they received

3 equal treatment, and they would be discharged in the same way that people

4 who were ethnic Serbs were discharged. There was some Muslims and there

5 were also some Croats who had come to the hospital for treatment, so you

6 could even ask them. I could give you the names of those people about the

7 kind of treatment. I mean, I wouldn't be able to provide these names to

8 you today, but I could do it a bit later.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. EDGERTON: I note the time, Your Honours, would it be time to

11 take the break?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Dr. Pejic, I only have a few more brief questions for you, if I

18 may. During your testimony in chief you gave evidence saying positions at

19 Stup, Zuc, Hum, and Mojmilo hill were to your knowledge held by Bosnian

20 forces. Could I just ask you, is the basis of your knowledge for this

21 similar to your knowledge of sniping and shelling of Sarajevo in that you

22 learned it from the media and you heard about it or read about it from

23 other people?

24 A. Well, I simply knew that because it was very close to the hospital

25 where I worked, and I knew where the lines were, where the front lines

Page 7047

1 were. And they were not manned by Serbs, and there was no need for me to

2 find that out indirectly through the media, I lived there. I was able to

3 see those hills. There is a line of sight to those hills from the

4 hospital, and it would be, in fact, good if we could actually go to this

5 building and then you will be able to see what you can see. We were in a

6 valley, or rather, in a flat area that was dominated by those hills.

7 Those hills dominated the place where our hospital was.

8 Q. But you've never been to the front lines, have you?

9 A. No, no, absolutely. I never went there, but it's just a couple of

10 kilometres away as the crow flies, and you were able to see where the

11 fighting was going on at the confrontation lines there you can see -- you

12 could see where the wounded were coming in from. And in 1992 and the

13 beginning of 1993, Serbs who lived at Zuc hill came to the hospital. The

14 wounded, those who were killed, to the hospital where I worked. The

15 attack had been launched from Sarajevo.

16 Q. Now -- thank you. Given your answers about what you've said about

17 the front lines, I wonder if I could have a map put on your screen bearing

18 the 65 ter number 02617A. Do you see the map on the screen in front of

19 you, sir?

20 A. Well, there is a map here, but I don't know the number. I think

21 it's 05 --

22 Q. You do see a map in front of did you?

23 A. -- 0984 -- yes, I do see it.

24 Q. Now, sir, this represents, if I can say, it's not as magnified a

25 version, a wider view of the same map you looked at earlier. I wonder if

Page 7048

1 you can look at the map and identify similarly to what you did before,

2 your hospital or the approximate location, which should stand pretty much

3 in the centre of what you see in front of you.

4 A. Yes, I would be quite glad to do so.

5 Q. You --

6 A. Here.

7 Q. -- could you please mark that and perhaps mark a letter "B" for

8 the word hospital in your language, "bolnica"?

9 A. I will put a cross and the word "H," that's the usual symbol for a

10 hospital -- well, that will be it here. Can you see it?

11 Q. Fine. Now, sir, would you agree with me that this map represents

12 the area in and around your hospital and a pretty accurate, since you've

13 seen them, representation of the confrontation lines.

14 A. Well, I assume so. I didn't mark them myself, but I assume

15 that -- yes, that's what it is.

16 Q. Based on what you've said you've been able to see?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. And then perhaps just one last question, if you can go

19 south of the location you've marked as your hospital, immediately before

20 the number 4 there's a location depicted there with the name Lokve

21 on it. Isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, do you see the designation of the high point just a little

24 bit further south of Lokve as 1246, 1246 metres?

25 A. No, I can't see it. I can see where it says Lokva, not Lokve with

Page 7049

1 an "E." Lokva is another place name in another place --

2 Q. My mistake.

3 A. So this is, in fact, one of the summits there at Igman.

4 Q. If you look at the base of the little flag immediately before

5 Lokva, the designation 1246 marking the height of the elevation?

6 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.

7 Q. All right. That's a rather steep elevation, isn't it?

8 A. Which one do you mean, do you mean the 1246? Yes, yes. Well, in

9 fact, the whole mountain is quite steep. This part of Mount Igman --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, could he just mark this elevation

11 for me that you're speaking about?

12 MS. EDGERTON: I think he could, Your Honour.

13 Q. Could you do that, Dr. Pejic, mark the elevation at the summit of

14 Lokva.

15 A. Lokva or 1246? This here is Lokva.

16 Q. 1246, please.

17 A. That's the elevation here.

18 Q. And could you put the number 1 beside the elevation that you've

19 just marked, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. I don't know whether you can see it. I hope I got that right.

23 Q. Now, would you agree with me, doctor, that that elevation is

24 somewhat steeper than Zuc, which is approximately 850 metres; Mojmilo,

25 which is about 500 metres; Hum, also about 500 metres, those locations

Page 7050

1 that you mentioned earlier?

2 A. I don't understand, what do you mean when you say "steep"? If you

3 say "steep," that refers to the gradient, but if you want to say that it's

4 high, yes, in that case it is higher, indeed, because 1.246 metres, that

5 is, indeed higher than, let's say, 700 metres.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if I could have this map marked as a

8 Prosecution exhibit, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You accept the correction? You're speaking of

10 height, not of steepness?

11 MS. EDGERTON: I do, I do.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll mark it.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's to be admitted.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As P780, Your Honours.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any other questions for the doctor,

17 Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 Mr. Tapuskovic, any re-examination?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just regarding this map, which is

21 still in front of us, that's Exhibit P780.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] This is the part of Mount Igman, which as you

24 indicated was inside this line here. Now, to the east of this elevation

25 that you marked, where does Mount Igman extend to?

Page 7051

1 A. To the south.

2 Q. To the south?

3 A. Yes, and to the east.

4 Q. What elevations are there in that area in relation to those

5 elevations that you mentioned?

6 A. Well, I don't know their height, but I do think that there are

7 some that are higher than this summit. Although I was actually born at

8 the foothills of Igman, I don't know about that. But perhaps we could

9 look at the map and then we will be able to ascertain that.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or perhaps some other map.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we perhaps scroll down this

13 map -- no, Your Honour, I don't have a map here, but Igman extend --

14 extends --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: We have 02617, the complete map, available in

17 e-court.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's have it then displayed.

19 In the meantime, Doctor, were you able to see from the hospital

20 the -- the -- who occupied the top of those hills, Zuc and Stup and

21 Mojmilo? Were you able to -- to see and to recognise and to identify the

22 force -- forces that were occupying those positions?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is impossible to answer

24 that question. I wasn't able to see because it's just impossible. There

25 were no insignia or anything, but from the wounded that came to the

Page 7052

1 hospital, I knew where the lines were and I knew that Zuc was in the hands

2 of BH army. Brejsto [phoen] Brdo, Sokolje, Mojmilo, Stup hill, Mount

3 Igman, the part near Hrasnica that the Defence counsel referred to --

4 well, quite evidently, this was held by BH army. The Republika Srpska

5 army held some slopes of the Zuc hill, but those were not dominating

6 heights. So you could see the Zuc hill from the hospital, but I couldn't

7 see the people who actually were manning those positions, and I was not

8 interested in it at all.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say that the Republika Srpska Army also held

10 some slopes of the Zuc hill, but they were not dominating. By that, what

11 do you mean? Where were they in relation to the ABiH forces on Zuc and

12 Stup and Mojmilo? Were they above or below, those forces?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I tried visualise this area,

14 the lines held by the Republika Srpska army were not visible from Mojmilo,

15 at Stup hill, they were on the slopes of Zuc facing north-west, not

16 Sarajevo but north-west, Vogosca and the area facing Rajlovac

17 municipality. So these were very low hills, as far as I know. I can't

18 really make any claims because I'm not 100 per cent sure.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, we can't see --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton --

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- enough of the territory.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- to the rescue.

24 MS. EDGERTON: I'm trying to, Your Honours, it seems like the

25 whole map, which has a 65 ter number, wasn't uploaded, but my colleague,

Page 7053

1 Ms. Bosnjakovic, is uploading it at this point if it can still help at

2 that point. And that map, for everyone's information, is a map which

3 shows the whole city of Sarajevo far to the north past Vogosca and to the

4 south as well. It may help, but it's just a question of how long it takes

5 for this exercise.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we wait for this I could perhaps just ask

7 one question to the witness.

8 Dr. Pejic, did you ever see artillery fire coming out of those

9 hills? Was that possible for you or did you not witness -- did you not

10 have time to witness any shelling coming out of those hills? If, for

11 instance, you were looking towards Zuc or Mojmilo, did you ever see

12 artillery fire coming from those --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- well, it would be

14 quite brave to stand there and observe that. I had a different job. I

15 was in the hospital. I was not outside, but according to the testimony of

16 those who brought in the wounded, it was quite clear that the shells had

17 come in from that area. 5.800 people in less than four years, you

18 couldn't really observe that, but we gained indirect knowledge. We heard

19 from the people telling us what happened once our job was done, then we

20 asked questions. After all, my entire family --

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- lived there. I didn't come from

23 Serbia; I was from there.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: I appreciate the suffering that the Serbian people

25 went through. I was just curious to know if you, yourself, had any chance

Page 7054

1 to observe the firing. But thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, it will take us long to

4 find the map that we could use.

5 Q. You spoke about some elevations that the Prosecutor pointed to

6 you, the elevations that were in the Hrasnica area to the south-east.

7 What did they look like in terms of their height and in relation to the

8 location of the hospital and the positions facing Zuc and Hum?

9 A. You mean the elevations that I indicated now or the elevations

10 that have not been shown here that were controlled by the BH army?

11 Q. Yes, precisely, because we can't see them on the map.

12 A. Well, in relation to the hospital, Ilidza, and this area, they

13 were dominating heights, just like this elevation that was indicated by

14 the Prosecutor were dominating in relation to -- to this area here.

15 Q. But they're closer to Mojmilo, Zuc, Hum --

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Doctor. That is the end of your

19 evidence. We are grateful to you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.

20 You may now leave.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for hearing me out.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness?

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness

25 has been planned for tomorrow. This witness has serious health problems,

Page 7055

1 and we thought that we -- that two witnesses planned for today would take

2 up the whole of our session today. I hope that this witness will be in

3 the condition to be heard tomorrow. We have three witnesses planned for

4 tomorrow, but we didn't want to expose this witness, who has serious

5 health problems, to having to wait here. And it was a big problem

6 bringing him here at all. So I ask your leave to hear him tomorrow, and

7 then to hear the other two witnesses planned for tomorrow.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: In other words, we will adjourn now because you

9 don't have another witness now? Well, in the circumstances, particularly

10 in light of what you've said about the witness's health, the Chamber

11 understands the position of the Defence. We'll adjourn until tomorrow.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.22 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of

14 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.