Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7280

1 Tuesday, 26 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, I understand you have some matters

6 to raise.

7 MR. DOCHERTY: Just one matter, Your Honour, and it will be

8 brief. On the 22nd of June, the Prosecution was notified of the Defence's

9 intent to soon call Witness T-22. The Prosecution yesterday, the 25th of

10 June, made a motion to exclude that testimony on the grounds of

11 relevancy. It was filed yesterday afternoon.

12 The Defence, of course, has under the Rules 14 days in which to

13 respond, but I'm wondering if as a matter of courtesy, more to the witness

14 than to the Prosecution, it might be possible to request a response sooner

15 than that, perhaps even as soon as the day after tomorrow, the 28th, even

16 if it is oral, since if the Chamber rules for the Prosecution on this

17 motion that would allow it to be decided before the witness leaves the

18 region and has the expense and inconvenience of travelling to the

19 Netherlands.

20 That's all I wanted to say before the witness came in. Thank you,

21 Your Honour.

22 [Trial Chamber confers].

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty, you would have received the Defence

24 65 ter list of witnesses and exhibits long ago, so why are you now at this

25 late stage making this submission?

Page 7281

1 MR. DOCHERTY: We were notified on the Friday, Your Honour, of the

2 witness's full name, date of birth, and of the Defence's intent to offer

3 his testimony on the 3rd of July, and we made the motion on the Monday.

4 The full name and date of birth are quite important in identifying these

5 witnesses and understanding their testimony when we do our document

6 searches --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You mean there was no name at all?

8 MR. DOCHERTY: There was not a full name, nor was there a date of

9 birth, and distinguishing by date of birth is very important because of

10 the limited number of family names that we work with.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: But presumably the motion that you have made, its

12 substance would not depend on the name. It's the -- the motion that you

13 are making is based on the -- the summary.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: The motion that we are making is based upon the

15 summary.


17 MR. DOCHERTY: However, the motion can change or relevancy could

18 have been revealed when we were in a position to understand the witness's

19 testimony by knowing who the witness was. A witness might well live a

20 long way from Sarajevo, for example, and that might be in the 65 ter

21 summary, but then when we specifically and uniquely identify that person,

22 perhaps it turns out to be someone who's quite central to events inside

23 Sarajevo. And I just have to say that this is a continuing issue with the

24 65 ter summaries.

25 A couple of witnesses from now a witness will be called -- we have

Page 7282

1 two separate people that we are looking at and finding documents on

2 because we don't have a father's name or a date of birth. And so this is

3 a continuing issue, and as I say upon being able to uniquely identify the

4 witness, which was last Friday, we brought the motion on the Monday. And

5 yes, it is based on the 65 ter summary, and if that's going to be fatal to

6 our submission, that's the way it's going to go, but that is the

7 explanation and the response to your question.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we can expect more motions of this kind?

9 MR. DOCHERTY: Unless we -- unless we start getting 65 ter

10 summaries that contain a father's name and a date of birth so that we can

11 uniquely identify the witnesses that are being called, I cannot rule out

12 additional motions being brought. We will do our best. I certainly take

13 the Chamber's point. We will go through the 65 ter summaries. We will

14 try and make any such motions based on the summaries, but even then they

15 could change or be withdrawn, for example, at the last moment when we

16 figure out who the person really is.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Docherty.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have anything to say?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, briefly. During

21 the Prosecution case and having in mind the summaries we received from

22 them, in a number of cases all they provided was just the pseudonym, not

23 even the first or the last name. We tried in each and every case to

24 provide them with a first and last name. There's not a single witness

25 that wasn't identified in that way and we did this immediately at the same

Page 7283

1 time as when we did the submission of the 65 ters -- 65 ter summaries. We

2 are not bound by the Rules to provide the name of the father, date of

3 birth, or any other --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. We -- the Chamber will have

5 to come to a decision on this matter.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness be brought in.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's Mr. Tapuskovic, I believe, to conclude.

10 MR. DOCHERTY: I thought that I had a little bit of

11 cross-examination left to go.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, you still have some?

13 MR. DOCHERTY: I -- we wrapped up. I had finished one topic and

14 rather than continue to the next one, we stopped for the day.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I recall. Please continue.

16 MR. DOCHERTY: If we could please see the photograph which we

17 ended with yesterday, which I believe is Prosecution Exhibit 786.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Docherty: [Continued]

21 Q. Mr. -- sorry. I mispronounced your name. Mr. Visnjic, on the

22 screen in front of you, you see the photograph that we ended with

23 yesterday. And could you tell us again what's the name of the building

24 that has the X on the right-hand side as you look at it?

25 A. This building that I marked, I don't think it is the building you

Page 7284

1 designated as being the building of Energoinvest, that's not the

2 building. However, there was a Unioninvest building, and if this is the

3 Vrbanja bridge, then it should be the Unioninvest building where the OHR

4 offices are nowadays. If this is so, I might be able to point out the

5 building where the Invest Bank building was which was entered by the

6 terrorist group and they eventually managed to reach the third floor,

7 although I don't see here the Vrbanja bridge or the Unioninvest or the OHR

8 building. I also cannot see the former Assembly building. I do see the

9 land historical museum and some other buildings which are across from the

10 museum, closer to us. Could you please show me a photograph with the

11 Unioninvest building?

12 Q. Well, what we're trying to do, sir, is identify the building. Is

13 the building that the ABiH troops entered, where they got to the third

14 floor, is that on the photograph that is in front of you?

15 A. I'm not sure. I think these are the so-called Metalka buildings.

16 There was number 1 and number 2, but I'm not sure whether that's the

17 building that I had thought it was.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. I did some thinking overnight. Yesterday I wanted to ask you to

20 show me the Unioninvest building or the Vrbanja bridge, and if I were able

21 to see that on the photograph I would be able to tell you exactly which

22 building that is. Otherwise, I cannot be sure. I think this is the

23 Metalka building, but this is not the building that we are looking for.

24 It should be somewhere to the right-hand side.

25 Q. Let me stop you there. Thank you. We -- if these are the Metalka

Page 7285

1 buildings, number 1 and 2, can you just tell us where the building that

2 you were talking about, the building where the enemy soldiers entered and

3 got to the third floor, where it would be in relation to what we do see

4 only the screen in front of us. Would we go to the right? Would we go to

5 the left? Where would they be?

6 A. I think it should be to the right. Can you show me the

7 Unioninvest building and the Vrbanja bridge? If you are able to do that,

8 I can tell you exactly which building that is.

9 Q. They are not on this photograph which is the one that's loaded

10 into the computer, so we can't show that to you right now, but there might

11 be a photograph that we will see in a couple of minutes that will help you

12 with this.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: For now let's take this off and let's put up

14 Defence Exhibit 272 --

15 Q. Which is the combat report from the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

16 about the attack on that building that you talked about yesterday. Now,

17 yesterday you looked at this while Mr. Tapuskovic was asking you

18 questions, and we see here that the date on this report is 21st of July,

19 1995. Am I correct about the date?

20 A. Yes, I can see that the date here is the 21st of July.

21 Q. And in paragraph number 2 it says: "The action was carried out

22 against the Chetnik bunker in Ivesta Bank, third floor, in which

23 Chetniks," and then I can't read it, "were permanently stationed." Have I

24 read that properly?

25 A. Yes, you have.

Page 7286

1 Q. So what this report is talking about is an attack by the ABiH on

2 the 21st of July against a position of your army in the Invest Bank

3 building. Is that a fair summary of what the subject of this report is?

4 A. Yes, that's precisely what happened. Their sabotage group

5 attacked the building in which our soldiers were. They attacked one of

6 its wings. They took control of it and proceeded onwards to the third

7 floor, where I believe they killed two elderly people. While carrying out

8 that attack, they had significant fire support from the rear --

9 Q. Sir, I just need to stop you right there --

10 A. -- therefore --

11 Q. -- I know you've got a lot to say about this and it's an important

12 subject to you, but I'm just asking for now about things that are in the

13 document. So there were soldiers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in this

14 building on the 21st of July, correct, those are the troops who were

15 defending; correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And the building had been held by the SRK before the 21st of July;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes. It was the area of responsibility of my battalion.

20 Q. And this attack, although there were losses suffered, this attack

21 was repulsed. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not hold this building,

22 did they? They were driven out?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. And this is -- and this building was then held by the

25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps until the end of the war, until Dayton; correct?

Page 7287

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This building is a tall building, isn't it?

3 A. No. Maybe some six floors, while the Unioninvest building was far

4 taller. It was under the control of the A B&H as of the beginning of the

5 war.

6 Q. Okay. Now, the building that is concerned in this report, the

7 Invest Banka building, this building is along the Miljacka river, is it

8 not? Along the south bank--

9 A. It is.

10 Q. -- in an area controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps during the

11 war; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. DOCHERTY: And lastly, if we could please see Prosecution

15 Exhibit 201. For the record, this is not on the Prosecution's

16 spreadsheet. I did speak with Defence counsel about this this morning,

17 and there was no objection interposed to my using this photograph with

18 this witness.

19 Q. Sir, I'll ask you to just take a look at this photograph. As with

20 previous photographs I'll ask you to just get your bearings, figure out

21 what's where. There is an X on one building, it was made by an earlier

22 witness; you don't need to worry about that. But just take a moment.

23 When you're ready to proceed, when you're oriented, just let me know.

24 A. I think -- well, the high-rises here, it's Unioninvest and Vaso

25 Miskin factory with this smoke-stack as far as I can see. To the left is

Page 7288

1 Energoinvest building, its administrative building.

2 Q. Let's just hold on right there. Yesterday you testified about a

3 sniper team going into the so-called shopping buildings. Do you remember

4 telling me about that when I was asking you some questions?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do the shopping buildings appear on this photograph?

7 A. Yes, they do.

8 Q. With the usher's assistance, would you please draw a blue circle

9 around the shopping buildings. It will just be a moment, sir. This

10 technology usually works very well, but sometimes there are problems.

11 Okay. Let's try this again. Okay. Can you take a -- do you see

12 that photograph that's now -- it's to your right?

13 A. To my right, yes.

14 Q. If there's a pen there - and if there isn't, I'll give you one -

15 can you draw a circle around the shopping buildings, please.

16 A. Here, these are the two buildings.

17 Q. Okay. And there's actually three of them, it's just that one is

18 behind the others here, is that correct, so it's a little hard to see, but

19 there's actually three shopping buildings; correct?

20 A. It is possible, but I only recall these two.

21 Q. Okay. That's fine.

22 A. And I remember the high-rises that burnt down; they were on our

23 side. They were fired upon from --

24 Q. Sir --

25 A. -- these high-rises here. The person who put the X here was

Page 7289

1 wrong, I think, because the high-rises were burnt down on our side.

2 Q. The person who put the X there wasn't being asked about the

3 high-rises and so forth; it was an answer to a different question.

4 MR. DOCHERTY: And, Mr. President, I'll tender this photograph the

5 witness has marked.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As P787, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Judge Robinson, on

10 the photograph before me, I don't see any markings -- I don't see any

11 markings that this witness may have made.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, there are two markings.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: That is -- it's on the ELMO.

14 Q. Okay. This --

15 MR. DOCHERTY: Madam Usher, I'm finished with marking. Thanks

16 very much.

17 Q. This sniper team that went up into the shopping building, what

18 sort of weapons did they have?

19 A. Infantry weapons, rifles of 7.9-millimetre calibre, that's it. Of

20 course with an -- with a sight.

21 Q. I need to interrupt for just a moment.

22 A. I think that as of April --

23 Q. Just let me interrupt for one moment. When you say a sight, do

24 you mean a telescopic sight?

25 A. Yes -- well, I wouldn't call it telescopic in my language, but it

Page 7290

1 is the same sight as used in hunting rifles, if you understand what I

2 mean.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. You mount it on the barrel and its range is quite great, up to 600

5 metres. This squad of ours, as far as I know, was formed sometime in

6 April 1993 but was disbanded in early October 1993. After that, I wasn't

7 able to observe those sharpshooters in my battalion. I don't think our

8 battalion had any left after that time.

9 Q. Okay. And this sight, you say it's the sort of thing used on

10 hunting rifles, so it's mounted on the barrel and you look through it like

11 this? You look through it, a little --

12 A. No. As we call it, we call it a tandzara, a shot-gun which is of

13 7.9-millimetre calibre. There is only one barrel as you have it with

14 hunting rifles. Next to the trigger there is a sniper sight mounted on it

15 --

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. -- and you observe through it. Hunters use the very same thing.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

19 MR. DOCHERTY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.

21 Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you talked about the meeting when the

25 decision was made. If you could explain in detail what was the target for

Page 7291

1 firing at this agreement in relation to everything that you talked about

2 so far?

3 A. At this moment I know that the commander Lieutenant-Colonel

4 Radomir Stojanovic picked a group of 12 people, due to a fierce attack

5 from the Pero Kosoric square and Pofalici -- no, not Pofalici, just the

6 square, this is Hrasno, from those high-rise buildings, they are high-rise

7 buildings and they just are a bit to the left and to the west when you

8 look at this picture and from the Mojmilo hill so that in the Moravska

9 street we had two snipers whose tasks was to follow the other snipers, see

10 where they're firing from, and to try to neutralise these snipers, as well

11 as the snipers from the Pero Kosoric or from Hrasno. This is something

12 that I know and these high-rises were the closest possible for you to be

13 able to see where the firing is coming from the other high-rise buildings,

14 and so that these snipers would try to successfully neutralise those

15 firing positions.

16 Q. Witness, well, let us look at document P787, this photograph that

17 was marked just a little bit before.

18 And can you please mark the facilities or the buildings where the

19 snipers were of the other side who, as you said, needed to be neutralised.

20 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]...

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see it on this

23 photograph --

24 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty -- sorry, please stop.

Page 7292

1 MR. DOCHERTY: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting.

2 Usually it's not a problem to mark on the other side's exhibits because an

3 image of the Prosecution exhibit has been saved, for example, but here

4 we're using hard copy because of the technical issues. And so this is

5 going to change the exhibit. I don't have a problem with that, as long as

6 we can very clearly mark who made which markings. So if we could use a

7 different-coloured pen or write on it as to -- if the witness could make

8 an S by the two circles he's already drawn to mark "shopping" in the

9 English language, then we could go ahead from there. It would help if we

10 use a different-coloured pen. I used blue. If they could use red then

11 we'd be fine.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: How about blue, blue and red, blue for the

13 Prosecutor and red for the Defence.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't get the interpretation.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Docherty suggested that perhaps we might use

16 colours to indicate the Prosecutor's markings and the Defence markings,

17 and he suggested blue for the Prosecutor and red for the Defence.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I don't have any

19 objection to that; no problem.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I mark this now?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, please, just a moment. Please don't rush. Wait. Can

23 you mark the buildings where these firing positions of the other side were

24 that needed to be neutralised by these people who were given that

25 assignment.

Page 7293

1 A. All right. It's this high-rise building, this high-rise building,

2 and this high-rise building here. These two buildings -- these three

3 buildings --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- this is where the firing came

6 from, as far as I know.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this

10 photograph now as it is now?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I've been advised, though, that we have to

12 consider whether this exhibit should be marked twice, and it would be

13 better to have it marked twice.

14 Court deputy.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, if I may. What I propose we do

16 is have this --

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, just one moment,

18 Your Honours, please.


20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe there was a

21 misunderstanding.

22 Q. Witness, can you draw a line here that would delineate the

23 positions of one side and the other side, that would separate them, based

24 on what you know, where the Miljacka River is.

25 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness.

Page 7294

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Energoinvest directorate

2 and the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Street that goes towards the tobacco factory,

3 tobacco factory. Now, here to the left from Energoinvest, Hrasno should

4 be on this side, our side, where they held positions. Now we have the

5 Miljacka --

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Since you are not able to find your way around, I would just

8 like -- ask you one more time to go back to the basic question. Did you

9 hear that there was any kind of assignment throughout the war? You said

10 there was a unit in 1993 which was given an assignment to act the way you

11 said against the firing positions of the sniper nests of the other side,

12 and now I'm asking you if during Dragomir Milosevic's time you ever heard

13 that there was a task existing in relation to sniper activity in relation

14 to civilians.

15 A. As far as I know, never -- well, this wasn't a unit, it was a

16 squad. And I said that it was active from late March 1993 until -- well,

17 in 1993 this section was abolished. During General Milosevic's time,

18 there was no sniper, nor did any orders come from the general to the

19 battalions about sniper actions, particularly not on civilian targets. In

20 1993 there was General Galic's strict order that it was not permissible to

21 act and that it would be strictly punished and brought before a military

22 tribunal if it was to be discovered that any sniper fired upon a

23 civilian. This is something that I know for sure.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions and

Page 7295

1 I'm not going to be tendering this photograph as an exhibit.

2 MR. DOCHERTY: Well, Mr. President --


4 MR. DOCHERTY: -- I understand he's not going to be tendering the

5 photograph, but that's not the way -- it's been marked now, and the

6 original was not preserved. So I would ask that -- I will ask the

7 registrar what's the best way to proceed in this. Maybe we can get --

8 when the SMART Board is working, if there's no objection, we could mark it

9 and put it in that way. I don't know.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the court deputy's wise words.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. My suggestion would be

12 to rely on the record and we have the transcript that shows what the

13 original markings were, as well as markings that were added by Defence,

14 and this Exhibit P787 only truly reflects the Prosecution's markings.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You see why I refer to his wise

16 words.

17 Witness, that concludes your testimony. We thank you for coming

18 to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness is Witness T-55,

23 Zoran Trapara.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

Page 7296

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.

4 You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [No interpretation]

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have just been

8 informed that there is a technical problem, and that until the break

9 nothing can be done about the markings that need to be placed on certain

10 documents. We're talking about maps. We have been informed by the -- and

11 I don't have the paper copies in order to be able to place them on the

12 ELMO. So there is a technical problem preventing me from beginning with

13 my examination-in-chief of this witness.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the technicians can be called in

16 right now to look at the problem, but they need to be at the witness's

17 desk. So the Chamber is going to adjourn for five minutes to allow the

18 technicians to do their work.

19 --- Break taken at 9.45 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 9.54 a.m.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, please begin.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Page 7297

1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness. Before we begin I would like to ask you

2 to pay attention to what we are saying and to begin answering my question

3 only after the cursor stops moving. As you can see, only when the cursor

4 stops, then you can begin to answer my question.

5 Can you please tell your first and last name to the Judges,

6 please.

7 A. I'm Zoran Trapara.

8 Q. Thank you. You were born on the 7th of November, 1968. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In Sarajevo, in the Centar municipality?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You completed elementary and secondary technical engineering

14 school in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You worked at the Famos factory in Hrasnica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this was until the spring of 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please tell the Judges where you lived while you were

21 working.

22 A. I lived in Hrasnica.

23 Q. How far was that from the Famos factory?

24 A. It's some 2 to 300 metres away.

25 Q. And when the conflict began, did you change your place of

Page 7298

1 residence?

2 A. Yes, I did. I went to my family house in Donji Kotorac.

3 Q. Thank you. I received a document from the Prosecution. I don't

4 know if there's a translation. This is document DD004065.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if

6 there is a translation. We tried to see if there was one. I just have

7 one question in relation to this document. It's still not entered into

8 the e-court system. We did everything that we were supposed to do, but

9 it's still not in the e-court system. There is one thing that I wanted to

10 show the witness. Perhaps we could use the ELMO in order to do that and

11 to put this question to this witness, if you permit.


13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, just noting, I don't know what the

14 document is and DD004065 was not on the list of exhibits for this witness

15 that I received.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why wasn't it on the list, Mr. Tapuskovic?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's true that -- in view of the

18 fact -- when we actually received the document, we put it on the list

19 additionally, but we did inform the Prosecution and we received the

20 document from them in any event.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That seems to be a standard reply.

22 What I would say, Ms. Edgerton, is that when you see the document,

23 if you find that you are in any way embarrassed by the lateness in the

24 notice, then you can bring it to the Court's attention.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And may I just add that the Court also avails

Page 7299

1 itself of the information provided by both parties to familiarise itself

2 with the documents prior to the examination of the witnesses.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will not use this

4 document in order to avoid wasting time. I just have one question, if I

5 can put it to the witness.

6 Q. Witness, did you ever fire at your own people? I'm asking you,

7 Witness.

8 A. It's not there on the screen. I don't see it. All right. All

9 right.

10 Can I reply now?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. [No interpretation].

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. There's a mistake, if the interpreter can interpret this.

15 Q. You said no?

16 A. It says here yes. I didn't say "yes," I said "no."

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We see the correction that you have

18 made. We note it.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, can you explain to Their Honours what Sarajevo means to

21 you, I mean in terms of territory. Where is Sarajevo, on what territory?

22 A. In my view, Sarajevo is the biggest city, the capital city, in the

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there are three rivers, Zeljeznica,

24 the Miljacka, and the Bosna running through it.

25 Q. Can you tell us where these three rivers flow?

Page 7300

1 A. The Miljacka goes from Pale towards Bascarsija, Drvenija, Stari

2 Grad, through Grbavica, Potoke, Alipasino Polje, and it flows into the

3 river Bosna near Stup near Ilidza. The Miljacka -- or rather the

4 Zeljeznica has its source in Trnovo. It passes through Trnovo, below

5 Ceskavica [phoen] through Kijevo, Krupac, Lojkovici [as interpreted],

6 Sokolovic Kolonija, and at Ilidza at a place called Sustavci it flows into

7 the Bosna and those two rivers together make up the river Bosna which

8 flows through a part of Ilidza, Vogosca, and Ilijas, and then it flows on

9 towards Central Bosnia.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us the Zeljeznica flows by the airport,

11 doesn't it?

12 A. It's near the new airport at a distance of about a thousand

13 metres.

14 Q. And the place through which the Zeljaznica flows, what is its

15 name?

16 A. Well, it's a large part of Vojkovici, then Sokolovic Kolonija,

17 it's near Hrasnica and Butmir.

18 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours around those three rivers, the

19 Miljacka, the Zeljeznica, and the Bosna, what is the configuration of the

20 terrain like? What hills are there around those three rivers?

21 A. Overlooking those three rivers are Mojmilo, Stupsko Brdo, Zuc,

22 Sokolje, Hum, Grdonj, Trebevic, and around Trebevic, at its foot-hills are

23 Colina Kapa, Debelo Brdo and Vidikovac.

24 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of when General Dragomir Milosevic

25 arrived at the head of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

Page 7301

1 A. Dragomir Milosevic arrived in early August 1994.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell me one more thing before I move on.

3 The area around those three rivers and the hills surrounding those three

4 rivers, what did this look like in relation to what was called Sarajevo?

5 What was Sarajevo?

6 A. Those hills that dominated over the town of Sarajevo.

7 Q. Well, that was not what I was asking you, but let's not make

8 things complicated. At the point in time when Mr. Dragomir Milosevic took

9 over command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, who had control of the hills

10 you have just mentioned, saying they were around those three rivers, in

11 that area?

12 A. The hills were held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mojmilo

13 was under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sokolje was also,

14 as was Zuc, Hum, and Grdonj.

15 Q. Thank you. And on the south-eastern side?

16 A. At Trebevic, Colina Kapa, and Debelo Brdo were under the control

17 of the BH army, whereas Vidikovac and part of Zlatiste were under the

18 control of the army of Republika Srpska -- and that was where the road

19 passed through linking us up to Pale and the rest of Sarajevo.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, I would like to ask you a question.

21 When you say that the hills were held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

22 exactly what do you mean? Do you mean the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 alone occupied the hills or that they occupied a particular section which

24 gave them a dominant view? Were there other forces on those hills, apart

25 from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 7302

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is that they held

2 those hills and dominated on those hills, as I have just said, at Mojmilo,

3 at Hum, at Grdonj, at Zuc, at Sokolje, at Colina Kapa, at Debelo Brdo

4 beneath Trebevic, whereas the Serb army was at Zlatiste and Vidikovac.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Trapara, tell me now, when Dragomir Milosevic took up command

8 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, which army did you belong to and where

9 were you at that point in time?

10 A. I belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska. I was a member of the

11 1st Sarajevo Brigade, the 1st Battalion, 1st Company, 1st Platoon, in

12 Dobrinja I, Dobrinja IV, towards Donji Kotorac between the new airport and

13 the old airport in the direction of Hrasnica.

14 Q. Thank you. I will now show you a map of Sarajevo, this is 65 ter

15 2872.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the southern

17 part, the south-western part of the map?

18 Can we scroll up a bit? A little to the west, please, so that we

19 can see the airport, to the west. More. More. More to the south, more

20 to the south -- ah, yes, thank you.

21 Q. Can you indicate approximately where you lived before you went to

22 Donji Kotorac.

23 A. You mean where my house was?

24 Q. Yes, when you were still working in Famos, can you mark it.

25 A. Just a moment, can I just see where Famos is here. You can't see

Page 7303

1 Hrasnica here.

2 Q. Witness, just mark the place where you were in your family house

3 during the conflict. Show us where Donji Kotorac is.

4 A. Here it is.

5 Q. Just slowly, please. Take it easy. And make a circle where your

6 house was.

7 A. Here, around here. Maybe a bit further up. Here.

8 Q. Please mark it with a K.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And now draw the separation line between the Army of Republika

11 Srpska and the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Thank you. Where was -- or rather, do you know what there was

14 below the airport?

15 A. There was a tunnel underneath the airport, through which the Army

16 of BH passed and their civilians.

17 Q. Can you show how far the exit from the tunnel was in relation to

18 your house?

19 A. Well, it was some 500 metres away from my house, but in relation

20 to the front line it was about 200 metres away.

21 Q. Can you mark on the map where approximately this was?

22 A. Here.

23 Q. If you can --

24 A. I'll mark it with a T for tunnel --

25 Q. Yes, but make a circle here.

Page 7304

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. You just said that General Dragomir Milosevic became the commander

3 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. What was the situation at the time when

4 he arrived in early August?

5 A. Well, in early August 1994, there was a relative lull, a calm, and

6 the Muslim forces made use of this to go through the tunnel, to go towards

7 Treskavica and Igman.

8 Q. As you said, the exit from the tunnel was 200 metres away. Who

9 else passed by, apart from the soldiers?

10 A. Apart from the soldiers, the BH army, there were also civilians,

11 the civilian population passing through the tunnel.

12 Q. As you said, from the separation line where you were, it was 200

13 metres away. And you said that both soldiers and civilians passed by.

14 Did you fire from your positions towards those people with any kind of

15 weapon?

16 A. No, we did not. We did not, because it was not our aim to provoke

17 a lot of fighting down there because our own civilian population lived

18 there, too.

19 Q. Was there any significance in the fact that soldiers and civilians

20 passed through together?

21 A. Yes, there was. The army made use of that in order to pass

22 through as safely as possible and take up positions on the surrounding

23 hills. I forgot to say that there was a mountain overlooking this area,

24 the mountain of Igman.

25 Q. Donji Kotorac is a place you mentioned. Can you show where the

Page 7305

1 hill of Mojmilo is?

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. Yes, it says Mojmilo here, but where is the hill, actually, the

4 highest elevation of Mojmilo? Over which area does Mojmilo extend? Can

5 you indicate that?

6 A. Well, from Nedzarici --

7 Q. Well, draw that, draw that.

8 A. Like this over -- all of this was Mojmilo.

9 Q. Thank you. Mark this with an M.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. And over here, towards the south and the south-west, what was the

12 situation? What hills were there?

13 A. I didn't understand.

14 Q. You just mentioned Igman.

15 A. Yes, Igman. The dominating feature was Mount Igman. There's also

16 Crni Vrh, Debelo Brdo, Tresnjevo Brdo, and from Mount Igman you can see

17 the entire city of Sarajevo.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

19 Ms. Edgerton.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, in the event we might be continuing

21 along this topic in the examination-in-chief, I feel I need to say so far

22 this whole story of who dominated what hills around Sarajevo wasn't even

23 mentioned in the 65 ter summary that we received. And I've been giving

24 this some leeway, but at this point, Your Honour, I have to say when the

25 Prosecution knows in advance that there will be witnesses talking about

Page 7306

1 the elevations around the city and who held of them, we have maps, we have

2 photographs and diagrams that we've typically been able to use to prepare

3 these witnesses and use in their examination-in-chief. And if I had known

4 that there was going to be extensive testimony about the hills, the

5 elevations, and control of them, I would have prepared accordingly.

6 However, that's not the case.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I hear the submissions.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in French before

9 me, I have it here. In one place it says: [In French] "The army around

10 Hrasnica and Gornji Kotorac. The formation of military units and the

11 confrontation line between the two factions, the two warring factions" --

12 [in B/C/S] and so on and so forth. Therefore, we have the places

13 specified. We know where this gentleman's position was and everything

14 else pertaining to the conflict of the two warring parties. I was

15 following this. We've come up to his positions. He was explaining to us

16 what Sarajevo was and who was at which positions, because he was a

17 combatant of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. He is familiar with all of

18 these things. Therefore --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you --

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I don't see what it is that we

21 should have included.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Please proceed.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You mentioned three elevations on Igman. I cannot recall exactly

25 which hills those were, but what was their altitude, approximately?

Page 7307

1 A. Over 1.000 metres.

2 Q. Then I have to ask you to indicate those elevations on the map.

3 Please get up and do not reply but merely try to locate them on the map.

4 Please have a look at what the exact altitude of those elevations is.

5 What is the altitude?

6 A. 1400, 1500, and one is 1320.

7 Q. What did you say, what was your position in relation to that, and

8 not only your positions but everything that was below those elevations?

9 A. The situation was such that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

10 full control over our positions.

11 Q. You said that initially there was a lull. When did problems

12 begin?

13 A. Gradually. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina used the tunnel to

14 move, to go via Igman and to regroup at Treskavica as well as other parts

15 of the theatre. They used that time to carry out sabotage actions in

16 order to try and push the Serb lines back. In September and October 1994

17 in one such sabotage attack in the area of Treskavica, I was wounded.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is it time for a

19 break?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have another minute and a half,

21 Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 Q. Tell me this: How many troops left Sarajevo? How many troops

24 moved through the tunnel and onwards towards the positions you mentioned?

25 A. It is difficult to say, but there were troops and civilians

Page 7308

1 non-stop, around-the-clock.

2 Q. What was happening at Hrasnica? How far is Hrasnica from your

3 positions?

4 A. Hrasnica is such -- well, the closest point of it was towards

5 Famos and towards Ilidza, the distance may have been some 3 or 400

6 metres. The centre of Hrasnica, where the command was and the rest, well

7 it's up to 1 kilometre away.

8 Q. Who held Famos, the factory you used to work in?

9 A. Famos, as such, was partially in the hands of the Army of

10 Republika Srpska, whereas the other part was in the hands of the ABiH.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll take the break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton -- ah, it's Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. While we're still on the map, and so as not to have to go back to

17 it later, since I want to move on to some other documents, I wanted to do

18 something else. You've marked Mojmilo and you've marked the separation

19 line. Can you mark the road which led from Donji Kotorac to Zlatiste,

20 mark it there, please, across the map, wherever you see it.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

23 MS. EDGERTON: I don't see the foundation here that might go to

24 support the witness's ability to identify a road. In fact, I'm still

25 uncertain as to what the witness might have been doing over the course of

Page 7309

1 the period of the indictment to be able to base any of his -- or to found

2 any of the observations he's making.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, establish a foundation for the

4 witness's ability to give this evidence.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. Witness --

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By putting questions, you mean.

8 Q. Witness, did you belong to the Army of Republika Srpska?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. What were you in that army?

11 A. A soldier and a platoon commander.

12 Q. Were you able to use or were you expected to use the roads in

13 order to carry out your activities in relation to your permanent positions

14 at Gornji Kotorac?

15 A. No, Donji Kotorac.

16 Q. Sorry, Donji Kotorac.

17 A. Yes, I did, I was.

18 Q. Did you also go to Zlatiste in the period relevant for the

19 indictment?

20 A. Yes, I did, to Zlatiste, it was the only way to move from Donji

21 Kotorac to Pale and other parts of Republika Srpska --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's sufficient. Move on.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] To go back to the first thing I

24 wanted to ask the witness. I wanted to ask him to mark the road he had to

25 use if he was supposed to carry out a certain task. Where was he supposed

Page 7310

1 to go, for example, if he wanted to go to Pale.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up here, Lukavica, and on to Pale.

3 It's difficult to get my bearings on this map since things are a bit

4 unclear.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. In relation to Mojmilo, what was the position of the road?

7 A. A part of that road went just below Mojmilo at the foot.

8 Q. What was happening while you were passing by Mojmilo?

9 A. During combat activities, that part of the road was exposed to

10 firing.

11 Q. Let us go back to the time for which General Milosevic was charged

12 with. You said that there was a lull at that time. Where were combat

13 operations carried out at that time? You've already told us you were

14 wounded.

15 A. I was waiting for the transcript to stop. At that time there were

16 activities in the area of Treskavica, Nisic, and the surrounding hills.

17 Q. Thank you. What was happening around Famos, where the factory was

18 in which you used to work during the time of command of Dragomir

19 Milosevic?

20 A. That was the front line. It even went through the Famos facility,

21 and a part of the factory was used for some sort of production at the

22 time.

23 Q. Thank you. At that time, on those positions where you were, were

24 there any heavy pieces there?

25 A. No. At that time all of the heavy pieces had already been pulled

Page 7311

1 out.

2 Q. Please, finish your answer.

3 A. There were no heavy pieces there at the time. By that time it had

4 been pulled out beyond its range limit. I don't know exactly how far.

5 Q. You mentioned Hrasnica and Igman, you mentioned the altitudes.

6 Did they fire upon you from those areas and by using what weapons?

7 A. I didn't understand the question. I didn't hear you.

8 Q. You already explained that Igman was above Hrasnica, the

9 elevations that were there. Was there any firing from there?

10 A. At one point they fired from Igman with their artillery.

11 Q. Thank you. I was actually thinking about the time that you

12 mentioned, October when you were wounded.

13 A. Yes, but that was at Treskavica. At the time they used the

14 regrouping of their army and occasionally they managed to attack positions

15 of the Army of Republika Srpska. In that period when I was wounded, there

16 was a relative truce. We were at our positions. We were leaving to go

17 home, and their sabotage group conducted an attack. They intercepted a

18 truck, and some 13 to 15 people were killed or wounded there. That's when

19 I was wounded.

20 Q. And when did things quieten down?

21 A. Shortly after that there was a relative truce, and this went on

22 like that until June, until the summer, early summer of 1995.

23 Q. And when did the first skirmishes begin, what was May like?

24 A. May was the month of truce. I think that the blue road also went

25 through that section, but during the truce on the 12th of May, 1995, they

Page 7312

1 managed to hit my [Realtime transcript read in error "by"] mother and

2 another woman who were working in the fields. At the time they were just

3 resting in the field.

4 Q. What happened after that? And what was your mother's name and

5 what was the other woman?

6 A. My mother is Mara Trapara and the other woman was called Vera

7 Novakovic.

8 Q. And what happened later in May and onwards?

9 A. After that, there was the regrouping. They started to go through

10 the tunnel, to the neighbouring mountains, and they were preparing for a

11 frontal attack on all Serb positions.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I continue

13 to examine this witness, could we please save this map and I would like it

14 to be tendered as a Defence exhibit, please.


16 THE REGISTRAR: As D274, Your Honours.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, line --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 32, line 22, instead of "by"

20 it says "may."

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Page 32, line -- managed to hit my mother, and we

22 have "by." Well, we thank you for that correction.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And this map, has it now been

24 admitted? Thank you.

25 Q. Now, can you please explain, you said that until May it was

Page 7313

1 quiet. Can you describe that time until May when you say that it was

2 quiet, at your positions primarily.

3 A. It was quiet. We carried out our regular assignments. Their army

4 was passing through the tunnel day and night, we knew that, we observed

5 it, but we didn't react to it because it wasn't our objective to provoke

6 actions. Families lived along those lines, the family Novakovic lived

7 along those lines. A man was killed along that line also by a sniper. I

8 forgot to mention that.

9 Q. In front of you was Hrasnica. Did you ever hear of anyone getting

10 killed from the snipers on the other side, from these positions where you

11 were?

12 A. No, never, I never heard of anything like that.

13 Q. During that time of truce, the B&H army was constantly going

14 through the tunnel and it was at a distance of some 200 metres from you.

15 Does this document accord with what you are saying? I'm going to show you

16 document DD002665. Document DD002665.

17 Mr. Trapara, can you please look at the heading of the document,

18 the date, and what it says below, and then can you read these first

19 sections. And then after that I can put questions to you after the

20 explanations that you have provided.

21 A. Division command, strictly confidential, 02/2-2-153, rotation of

22 the 12th KoV and division of the 16th land army, zone of responsibility

23 order.

24 "In order to carry out the routine rotation of the 12th KoVd unit

25 the battalion commands resubordinated to the 16th KoVd, and undertake all

Page 7314

1 the necessary measures for unit preparation and organisation for the

2 rotation, I issue the following order.

3 "Brigade commands shall immediately undertake all the necessary

4 measures to prepare the units - battalions for rotation of the 16th

5 Division's area of responsibility.

6 "During the preparations of the battalions for rotation observe

7 all current orders related to the numbers of officers and soldiers who are

8 dispatched to carry out combat actions."

9 Q. Thank you, thank you. The document of the 6th of August, 1995,

10 actually speaks about what you have already testified about, that you

11 watched them going out of the tunnel and going to their positions. So

12 this was on the 6th of August, 1995. How long did you have the

13 opportunity to monitor this? This is the 6th of August, 1995. How long

14 before this did you notice that and what was the intensity of this

15 occurrence in this particular period?

16 A. You mean the passage through the tunnel. They were constantly

17 going through the tunnel throughout 1994 and 1995.

18 Q. Even in this quiet period when you were not undertaking any

19 actions, as you say?

20 A. Yes, all the time, even in the quiet times.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please

22 tender this exhibit as -- this document as a Defence exhibit?


24 THE REGISTRAR: As D275, Your Honours.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7315

1 Q. Mr. Trapara, could you please tell me now what happened. You

2 already described what was going on in May and what happened to your

3 mother. And what happened then, in May and in subsequent months that

4 followed?

5 A. In this period when this document - because this is on the 6th of

6 August - then the Muslim army prepared a large action throughout the whole

7 territory of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

8 Q. Just one moment, please. The document is of the 6th of August,

9 but when did this begin?

10 A. I didn't understand. What?

11 Q. You said May, the document is of the 6th of August. Please listen

12 to me. When did that offensive that you're talking about begin?

13 A. I don't know when it began. I know it was summer, June, July,

14 August, I don't know the exact date.

15 Q. And how did it look like?

16 A. First, they struck the frontal positions. As far as my area of

17 responsibility is concerned, they struck Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV and

18 the town area in the direction of Zlatiste. They were hitting our forces

19 and then they wanted to approach from the back of the front, Treskavica,

20 Nisici, Treskavica, and other positions.

21 Q. I would like to show you document D107, that's been a Defence

22 exhibit for a long time now.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] So can we now look at that

24 document.

25 Q. Mr. Trapara, can you please, very slowly, because we will finish

Page 7316

1 with this examination-in-chief quickly. Can you very slowly read the

2 heading, the date, and what it says below the heading, and in particular

3 this first paragraph and then I would like to ask you something.

4 A. "Command of the 12th division, strictly confidential, number

5 02/2-7-10 -- command of the 12th division, strictly confidential, number

6 02/2-7-10, Sarajevo, the 26th of June, 1995.

7 "Defence of the republic, military secret, strictly confidential,

8 1.

9 "Proposal of targets chosen for destruction and tying up the

10 aggressor forces by units.

11 "To the commander of the 1st Corps.

12 "Pursuant to the order of the 1st Corps Chief of Staff, strictly

13 confidential number 01/3-151 dated the 25th of June, 1995, to execute

14 active combat operations in the area of responsibility of all brigades in

15 the area of responsibility of the 12th Army Division in order to tie up

16 the aggressor forces around the city and to stretch out the same offering

17 relief to our forces outside the city zone in the area of the

18 responsibility of the 14th and the 16th Army Division we send you

19 proposals brigade by brigade."

20 Q. Thank you. Is this what you said before about what these

21 activities looked like of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 when you were talking about focusing on specific actions. Can you explain

23 that again, the way you did a little bit before, now after you have read

24 this document?

25 A. Yes, I can. This was all with the objective of tying the units of

Page 7317

1 the Army of Republika Srpska to specific positions, and for them to be

2 able to use other positions to created confusion and a breakthrough.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, what is being said in this first paragraph here,

4 that talks about the 101st Brigade, and then -- can you read that. And

5 then at the very end can you please read another paragraph and then I will

6 put some questions to you after that. Can you please read the part that

7 relates to the 101st Mountain Brigade.

8 A. "The 101st Mountain Brigade.

9 "The 1st Mountain Brigade in the area of responsibility.

10 "The bunker and access from the road to the tunnel Dzakina Kuca

11 gun holes from the eastern and western sides.

12 "The hand-held launcher, anti-tank grenade launcher, squad and

13 sniper rifle and automatic rifle."

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the end of the

16 document now, that is page 2 in B/C/S and it's the end of the document in

17 English. It's the third page, not the second page, please, excuse me, the

18 third page.

19 Q. The end of that page where it says under 3 bb, can you please read

20 all of that until the end.

21 A. "Objective 1: MG in the D. Ponjarca Street first floor Dobrinja

22 IV group aim the RPG and the commander, the assistant marksman, the

23 sniper, and two automatic rifle operators, approves the expenditure of two

24 RPG projectiles, one combat kit for the PASP. 0.5 combat kit for

25 automatic rifle, target 2, the dormitory in the Miroslava Krleze Street

Page 7318

1 Dobrinja I group, marksman, RPG commander, at the same time, assistant

2 marksman, sniper operator, and two automatic weapons operators. Approve

3 the expenditure of two RPG projectiles, one combat kit for the PASP and

4 one combat kit for the AP."

5 Q. Thank you. Can you now look at the last page and tell us who

6 signed that as an order.

7 A. Commander brigadier Fikret Prevljak.

8 Q. Thank you. And now since you've already said what you said about

9 the beginning section of this document and these two combat assignments

10 that were issued, what do you know -- you already said the date and it was

11 all the way it is described here. What do you know in relation to where

12 this was in relation to your positions and what do you know about these

13 two actions?

14 A. I can tell you specifically about these two actions because they

15 happened in the area of responsibility of my battalion and my company. It

16 happened in the D. Ponjarca and Miroslava Krleze in Dobrinja I and

17 Dobrinja IV.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. With respect to the portion the

20 witness just read out he's read that out, Your Honours, because that

21 portion hasn't been translated into English, and now the witness is

22 leading evidence about information which is new to the English speakers of

23 this Trial Chamber which was not in the least disclosed to the Prosecution

24 prior to his testifying. So I would object on both of those grounds.

25 I've had no notice whatsoever, Your Honours.

Page 7319

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you are saying is that the piece that he

2 read out beginning at -- where is it? 30 -- it's on the transcript but

3 that piece was not translated?

4 MS. EDGERTON: As far as I can see, and I've been trying to find

5 that portion on the English document available to us on e-court. It was

6 not translated at all. So for the witness to go further, Your Honour, I

7 would suggest would be inappropriate.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would agree, Mr. Tapuskovic. Why wasn't it

9 translated?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This entire document has been

11 translated. I didn't pay attention to the English, but it has been

12 translated. Everything I have read out has been translated into English,

13 and it was disclosed on time. The entire document was translated.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have anything to confirm that?

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It can be brought up, Your

17 Honours. Let us see the first page --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not talking about the document as a whole

19 but the particular piece that Ms. Edgerton has highlighted.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But everything has been

21 translated. If we can first see the first page referring to the action of

22 the 101st Brigade. It begins on page 1, and that last event is on the

23 last page, and it's all been translated, 3 bb.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, is the passage beginning 3 -- the

25 3 -- the 3rd bb, the sleeping quarters, is that the one to which you

Page 7320

1 referred? Because it's in the English.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, now I see it, Your Honours, and I was

3 struggling to find it as the witness was giving his evidence.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Mr. Tapuskovic, you may proceed.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Trapara, these two events described here which occurred, as

7 you have already said, in your area of responsibility. What can you say

8 about them? Do you have any direct knowledge of this, of the way events

9 unfolded?

10 A. As for these two events, I can say -- well, I don't know if it was

11 exactly on that day, but it was at that time. They attacked the entire

12 part of Serb territory from Zlatiste and Debelo Brdo all the way to

13 Dobrinja I and the airport.

14 Q. Thank you. And as you were there holding those positions, Dzakina

15 Kuca is mentioned and then Ponjarca, D. Ponjarca. In view of this

16 location, what do you know about this?

17 A. Dobrinja Ponjarca Street was in Dobrinja IV and Dzakina Kuca is a

18 house on the other side of the airport towards the front held by the

19 Ilidza Brigade. They -- and also Dobrinja I at the same time. So they

20 launched their assault on these points in order to stretch out the forces

21 of Republika Srpska and to be able to go towards Treskavica, Hadzica, and

22 those parts where there was a war theatre.

23 Q. This other event that has to do with Miraslova Krleze Street,

24 Dobrinja IV and Dobrinja I, did it distract your attention? That's what I

25 wanted to ask you.

Page 7321

1 A. Well, as my company was linked to Dobrinja I, that was our area of

2 responsibility. We sent some of our troops to help there. An entire

3 platoon had to go and help in order to prevent them breaking through

4 because they had broken through at Trebevic in that time-period when they

5 managed to pierce through the Serb lines.

6 Q. And where was this?

7 A. Well, I don't know precisely but there was a part of Debelo Brdo

8 and Zlatiste around Vidikovac, that part up there, I don't know exactly

9 what part. And so we had to --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the entire

11 reply, response, the last part.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

13 Would you just repeat the last thing you said, Mr. Witness, your

14 last sentence, the interpreter did not get it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? In order to secure ourselves

16 and make sure that the Muslim forces must not break through our lines, we

17 had to strengthen our lines. Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV, we had a lot of

18 our own civilian population. I didn't say that just a minute ago.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And tell me, what exactly did you find out happened at Trebevic?

21 A. At the same time they managed to break through some lines at

22 Trebevic, some lines of the Army of Republika Srpska.

23 Q. What did this look like --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, given that Trebevic is so far outside

Page 7322

1 of the confrontation lines with which we're concerned in these

2 proceedings, I wonder -- I don't see any foundation for the witness's

3 knowledge as regard to what happened at Trebevic which I don't think, with

4 respect, is within the area of responsibility of his brigade. So perhaps

5 that foundation could be established.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. -- Sorry, Ms. Edgerton, I don't agree with

7 you. If you wish, you can take it up in cross-examination and test his

8 knowledge, but he's a soldier in the army and I take it that he has

9 familiarity with these areas.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Well, to clarify this, you said what you did, but how do you know

12 about the events at Trebevic?

13 A. All of this was in the area of responsibility of my brigade, this

14 was the 1st Sarajevo Brigade. Our area of responsibility was from the

15 river Zeljeznica all the way up to Trebevic.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have already ruled. Just proceed.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Well, to round off this topic, in peacetime, the area across

19 Zlatiste, were there some actions threatening the area at Zlatiste from

20 the area under the control of the 1st Corps of the Army of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not in peacetime but

23 when there was a lull in the fighting.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A part of the road leading from

25 Sarajevo across Zlatiste towards Pale was under fire from the Muslim

Page 7323

1 forces day and night. Trucks and buses passed by and luxury cars, and

2 there were a lot of casualties.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us, you lived in Hrasnica while you

5 were still able to work in Famos. What happened in 1992 that made you

6 leave your job and the house in which you had lived, your home, in order

7 to go to Kotorac?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, we're two years outside of the

10 indictment period here. I would object on the ground of relevance. We're

11 temporally outside of the relevant period for this indictment.


13 How do you respond to that, Mr. Tapuskovic?

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point I

15 don't think I have to deal with that extensively, but the time-period from

16 1992 is in the indictment. It deals with that period. It is in the

17 indictment, and I simply cannot believe that this is constantly being

18 raised as an issue. But in order to save time, I don't think it's that

19 important for this witness to deal with that. But it is important to deal

20 with the time preceding General Dragomir Milosevic's time. So I have to

21 repeat at this point that --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I've said before that the mere

23 fact that the indictment period starts in 1994, but one is able to refer

24 to the pre-indictment period, 1992, because that is also covered in the

25 indictment, that doesn't mean that any and every piece of evidence

Page 7324

1 relating to 1992 or 1993 will be admitted. You still have to justify the

2 relevance of the evidence. That's the first basis for admissibility:

3 Relevance. So merely to say it is 1992 will not let the evidence in, you

4 know. But I see you are not insisting on it, so let us proceed to another

5 point.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Why did you take up weapons in 1992, in view of the place where

8 you lived and the job you did --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. -- If you are going to lead evidence about

10 1992, it must be evidence that is relevant to the indictment. Is the

11 evidence that you propose to lead now relevant?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I started

13 questioning the witness from paragraph 6, and the witness gave us some

14 very valid evidence about paragraph 6, what Sarajevo is, that it's

15 surrounded by hills and slopes, steep slopes. He explained what this is

16 and who held those mountains, and then in points 7 and 8: "In Sarajevo

17 armed hostilities broke out soon after on the 7th of April, 1992,

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina," and so on and so forth.

19 So the circumstances in which armed hostilities broke out and when

20 I could continue from point to point, from paragraph to paragraph --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Tapuskovic --

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I didn't want to dwell on it

23 long.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Proceed.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7325

1 Q. Witness, if you can, explain as briefly as possible what prompted

2 you and the people around you to take up weapons and to leave your homes

3 and your jobs and to go to your family house?

4 A. Well, in Hrasnica, which was inhabited mostly by Muslims, I felt

5 like a second-class citizen. I experienced this myself when the first

6 barricades were erected, the first barricades around Sarajevo. My friends

7 and neighbours who used to come and help me --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Apologies, Your Honour, for the intervention, but

10 evidence like this is of a recurring theme that has to do with suffering

11 of people of Serbian ethnic background and a theme which my colleagues and

12 I have submitted repeatedly is irrelevant to the case at hand.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not irrelevant in this particular instance.

14 He has referred you to paragraph 7 which says -- this is paragraph 7 of

15 the indictment: "Shortly after Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally

16 recognised as an independent state on 7th April, armed hostilities broke

17 out in Sarajevo. Even before this date, armed forces supporting the

18 Serbian Democratic Party and elements of the JNA, including units of the

19 4th Corps, of the 2nd Military District, occupied strategic positions in

20 and around Sarajevo."

21 So that must allow the Defence to lead evidence in relation to the

22 outbreak of hostilities in 1992. So let us see where he is going, you

23 know.

24 But Mr. Tapuskovic knows very well that the Chamber is monitoring

25 very closely the relevance of the evidence that he's leading.

Page 7326

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Is there anything I need to

2 explain further, Your Honours?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, you just need to continue with your

4 examination, bearing in mind the need to ensure that the evidence is

5 relevant.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In other words, once again, as I asked, how did it come about that

8 you became a man who joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

9 A. After I left Hrasnica after all those events, it all happened

10 spontaneously. We took up weapons to defend our homes, our families. We

11 felt unsafe.

12 Q. Where did you live in Trapare --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Trapara, interpreter's correction, where did

14 you live, you Trapara family?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we, the Trapara family, have

16 lived in those territories centuries. We are indigenous people. The

17 entire area part of Dobrinja -- parts of Dobrinja, it all belonged to the

18 Trapara family for ages and ages. I came to my family house where my

19 grandmother lived after I left Hrasnica and after all these events I was

20 forced to take up a rifle to defend my family and the land of my

21 grandfather's.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And you didn't move anywhere?

24 A. No, I was there all the time.

25 Q. You were in Hrasnica?

Page 7327

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was happening in Hrasnica? What happened there? Did you

3 have any problems prior to leaving and going to your family house and when

4 was that?

5 A. I tried to say that a minute ago, but I was interrupted by the

6 Prosecutor. It was during the time when the first barricades were

7 erected. I came to my house in Kotorac Donji. I had some pigs there and

8 cattle and I went to feed them at my grandmother's. When leaving

9 Hrasnica, my friends and neighbours were at the barricades; they wouldn't

10 let me pass through. And at a certain point a so-called friend put a

11 rifle against my throat and I was forced back. I realised what the

12 situation was, and as soon as I could leave, I went to Donji Kotorac.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: As a matter of interest, who is this friend?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?


17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a so-called friend.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, tell us, why do you say "so-called"?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because that man used to work in a

20 bakery where I used to take fodder for my pigs. He knew exactly where my

21 house was and why I was going there, but still he wouldn't let me pass at

22 that moment.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why? Why wouldn't he let you pass?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably because he knew I was a

25 Serb. I didn't pay much attention to that at the time. I don't know.

Page 7328

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And he was what? What was he?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Muslim. The barricades in

3 Hrasnica were put up by Muslims.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. My last question: What date was it?

7 A. I don't know exactly when the first barricades appeared, but it

8 was in 1992 in any case, March, April, I don't know exactly.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

13 MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honour, could we have one moment?


15 MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may, and please accept my

18 assurances, I don't do this lightly, but in light of the situation that I

19 indicated earlier on, the objection that I raised earlier on in this

20 witness's testimony with respect to the hill-tops and the elevations, and

21 I could name them if there's a need, a great many of them being on the far

22 side to the north of Sarajevo, far and away outside of the witness's area

23 of responsibility of his brigade and not a single one mentioned in his 65

24 ter summary. I would like to ask Your Honours' indulgence.

25 I've taken steps while we've been listening to this testimony,

Page 7329

1 working with my colleagues over the e-mail to prepare some maps that I'd

2 like to use in the cross-examination; however, the technology doesn't move

3 that fast, Your Honours, and it takes time to organise people. It takes

4 time to print maps, and with Your Honours' indulgence, I'd like to ask if

5 we could have a pause now rather than later and slightly longer to allow

6 for the maps to be brought to the courtroom, for Mr. Docherty and I to

7 review them, and then I'll certainly be prepared to begin my

8 cross-examination with I think every likelihood of finishing before the

9 end of the day today.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What period of time did you have in mind?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps ten minutes longer than the usual break,

13 Your Honour. No more than half an hour. You see that the map just made

14 its way into the courtroom, so the timing is actually perfect.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll take the break now and resume at a

16 quarter past 12.00, quarter past 12.00. A quarter past 12.00.

17 MS. EDGERTON: I'm grateful, Your Honours.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just two matters before the witness comes in.

22 First I neglected to say that in the absence of Judge Mindua, Judge

23 Harhoff and I sit pursuant the provisions of Rule 15 bis.

24 And secondly it's to ask Mr. Tapuskovic whether in relation to the

25 Prosecution's motion mentioned by Mr. Docherty this morning, he would be

Page 7330

1 in a position to respond by Thursday, as requested, bearing in mind that

2 he would be normally entitled to two weeks.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, upon consultation

4 with my colleague, I can inform you that we will be able to submit our

5 response by Thursday morning.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Thanks.

7 Let the witness be brought in.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Trapara. My name is Ms. Edgerton, for the

13 Prosecution. I'm going to ask you some questions about your testimony

14 today and I'll try and go as slow as I can, but if for some reason you're

15 unclear or you don't understand the question, please say. Is that all

16 right?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And you speak a little bit of English or understand a little bit

19 of English, I think. Isn't that correct, Mr. Trapara?

20 A. A bit.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, just to begin with I wanted to ask you do

22 you understand that a summary of a person's evidence before he testifies

23 here has to be given to the other side, the opposing party. Did you know

24 that?

25 A. I didn't understand the question.

Page 7331

1 Q. A summary of what you are going to talk about usually has to be

2 given by the lawyer for one side to the lawyer for the other side. Did

3 you know that?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. And are you aware that the summary of your evidence says that you

6 were in the 2nd Brigade, when you stipulated very definitely that you were

7 a platoon commander in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

8 A. I wasn't aware of that.

9 Q. So you're not in a position to say how that came about then, are

10 you?

11 A. I am not. It may have been taken down incorrectly. As of day

12 one, as of the first day of the war, I belonged to the 1st Sarajevo

13 Brigade.

14 Q. And did you tell the Defence you were a soldier or did you tell

15 them you were a platoon commander?

16 A. Both.

17 Q. When did you actually join up, do you remember?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. What date was that?

20 A. An exact date, yes, the 10th of April, 1994, as stated in the

21 records.

22 Q. Now, prior to the 10th of April, 1994, did you have military

23 service?

24 A. Military service, yes, I served my military term in 1987 in

25 Slovenia.

Page 7332

1 Q. So what were you doing between April the 6th, 1992, and the time

2 you joined up in the VRS in 1994?

3 A. What was I doing in between?

4 Q. Yes, what was your function, what was your occupation?

5 A. My occupation was an electrician. I worked in the maintenance

6 section at Famos. From 1987 until -- until the beginning of the war,

7 that's where I worked, if I understood your question properly.

8 Q. And from 1992 to 1994, what was your function?

9 A. I belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska.

10 Q. Uh-huh. So you joined up to the Army of Republika Srpska at the

11 beginning of the war in 1992. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was in 10th of April, 1992, approximately?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And from that point in time you were subordinated to the VRS, you

16 were a part of the VRS, as far as you were concerned?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you were a soldier for an extremely long time, and I would -- I

19 would imagine you're in a position to say how well your unit and your

20 battalion functioned over the course of time. Sounds like it must have

21 been a properly functioning military unit, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Who was your battalion commander?

24 A. There were several.

25 Q. Do you remember the names of them?

Page 7333

1 A. I do. My battalion commander was the late Bosko Vujadin. Before

2 him, Vuko Coro. Then Bosko Vujadin and then in the end Gavran Dusan,

3 captain.

4 Q. And who was your brigade commander, do you remember?

5 A. Yes. The brigade commander was Colonel Veljko Stojanovic.

6 Q. And was that from the outset of the war up until the end of the

7 war?

8 A. I think Colonel Veljko Stojanovic remained in that position

9 throughout.

10 Q. Do you know whether or not he had a rank in the JNA before the war

11 broke out?

12 A. I don't. I know he was a colonel in the VRS.

13 Q. Where was your brigade headquarters, do you know?

14 A. My brigade headquarters was in the Lukavica barracks, in -- or

15 rather, at Pavlovci hill.

16 Q. And how often were you required to make reports which would go up

17 the chain of command to your brigade? Every day? Several times a day?

18 A. I didn't have much to do with the brigade commander. I sent my

19 reports to the company command, who then in turn sent it onwards to the

20 battalion command, and so on and so forth.

21 Q. And did you -- how often then would you meet with your company

22 commander or your battalion commander to be briefed or receive

23 instructions?

24 A. There was a meeting daily in the company command, and occasionally

25 there were meetings at the battalion command.

Page 7334

1 Q. And -- now, just in terms of your specific function, where were

2 you stationed? What part of the earth did you serve on?

3 A. Most of my time was spent on the line between the Novakovica house

4 and between the old and new airports.

5 Q. All right. Now, in your testimony you spoke in some measure of

6 detail about elevations around Sarajevo, and you gave the names of a

7 number of different hills, some of which were within your brigade's area

8 of responsibility and some not. Mojmilo, Stupsko Brdo, Zuc, Sokolje, Hum,

9 Grdonj. Do you remember that testimony?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. So I want to talk then about the elevations a little bit, but

12 first of all, and in line with that, I want you to have a look at the map

13 which appears beside you.

14 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, Your Honours, that map bears

15 the 65 ter number 02617.

16 Q. Looking at that map, and you can take a little bit of time, would

17 you generally agree that this map shows the elevations around Sarajevo

18 accurately?

19 A. May I approach the map?

20 Q. Absolutely. Could you say your answer into the microphone,

21 please.

22 A. I agree.

23 Q. Now, do you see a date on the top left-hand corner of the map?

24 A. Up here?

25 Q. Left.

Page 7335

1 A. No, that one. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And what does the date read?

3 A. The 31st of August, 1995.

4 Q. Now, do you see a name on the bottom right-hand corner of the map?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Is that the name of Dragomir Milosevic?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Now, you might not need the map to answer these questions, but you

9 can have it beside you for -- if you need some kind of reference. And I'd

10 like to put this proposition to you. All the hills in your testimony that

11 you mentioned as being controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't

12 it correct that they're actually overlooked by territory in the control of

13 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

14 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you please repeat it.

15 Q. Sure. Now, you listed a number of hills actually ringing Sarajevo

16 on all sides. Now --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- as you said, those were controlled by the Army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, looking at that map, isn't it correct that all

20 of the hills that you mentioned are actually overlooked by territory

21 controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

22 A. No, that is not correct. They don't dominate over each one.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wouldn't want to

25 confuse anyone. There was a half an hour break because of the maps which

Page 7336

1 were provided to us even before that, and this map that is here is not

2 different in any way from the map that is here. There is just a different

3 date on it. And I really don't understand -- well, the witness is being

4 asked something that is not -- not at any point something that he

5 mentioned during his examination-in-chief.

6 What I would like it to be known is that there is no difference

7 between these two maps except in the date and that there was no need for a

8 half an hour break because of that map, because we already had this map

9 which was given to us yesterday. I just don't understand what they want

10 to achieve with this when these two maps are identical.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what I don't understand is the point that

12 you have made.

13 Please proceed.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Now, you said, Mr. Trapara, that they don't dominate over each

16 one, and there may be some exceptions to some of the maps that you

17 mentioned. So perhaps we could go about it this way. Isn't it true that

18 Sarajevo actually sits in a river valley, the valley of the Miljacka

19 river. Sarajevo's in a valley?

20 A. It's not true -- yes, they are in the valley but it's in the

21 valley of the Miljacka river. I said today that there were three rivers

22 that comprise the area of the Sarajevo territory, Miljacka river,

23 Zeljeznica river, and the two of them form the river Bosna. So it's

24 well-known through which areas of the town the Miljacka flows, the

25 Zeljeznica flows, and through which parts of the town the Bosna River

Page 7337

1 flows. All this is known.

2 Q. But Sarajevo's in a valley?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. All right. And isn't it --

5 A. In a depression.

6 Q. Isn't it true that hills like Zuc and Hum are actually high points

7 in the valley?

8 A. Yes, that's what I said.

9 Q. But all of these points, isn't it true, were overlooked by higher

10 elevations controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? And have a look at

11 that map if you need some assistance.

12 A. It's not necessary. They were below higher elevations, but these

13 were dominant points over the population of Sarajevo. You couldn't fire

14 at the town from Jahorina or Hresa or from other hills. I've forgotten

15 the exact names. The hills that I've cited were dominant and they were

16 used for fire by the Muslim army against the Serb army and the civilian

17 population of Republika Srpska.

18 Q. Now, you're a platoon commander, sir, so as a platoon commander

19 you're probably -- and you were in the army for four years, so you're

20 probably aware of how mortars are used. Is that right? You've seen them

21 in action?

22 A. Yes, I do know.

23 Q. And so then you must be aware that mortar crews can hit a target

24 that they can't see?

25 A. Yes, of course.

Page 7338

1 Q. And that's why they call mortars indirect fire weapons?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. What kind of heavy weapons are in -- were in possession of your

4 brigade from August 1994 to November 1995?

5 A. All the artillery weapons were removed from 15 to 35 kilometres,

6 I'm not sure about the distance, but they were out of range of the

7 Sarajevo area. There was an order that all the heavy artillery had to be

8 removed from their positions.

9 Q. Now, can I ask you to turn to the map behind you then and look in

10 the area of responsibility of your brigade because it's set out on the map

11 and ask you to find Tvrdemici on the map.

12 And you'll see some lettering in Cyrillic in black letters ...

13 A. I cannot find it. I don't see where it is written here, but I

14 know exactly where that location is.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.

16 MS. EDGERTON: My mispronunciation of the name, Madam interpreter,

17 it's Tvrdemici, if that gives you some hint.

18 Q. If you can find in the area of response --

19 A. Yes, yes, I know, Tvrdemici, Tvrdemici, it's a location above

20 Sarajevo. It's some 15 kilometres away from my house in the direction of

21 Jahorina, but I cannot find that here. I know exactly where it is.

22 Q. Can you look at that map, sir, and in the area of responsibility

23 of your brigade find the black lettering that reads in Cyrillic "KAG 2."

24 You found it?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 7339

1 Q. The notations --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

3 Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot see what

5 is being shown here. I agree, we can use that map to point out things,

6 but I don't understand why we're not using this other map that is much

7 more enlarged and it's easier to spot things on it.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why aren't you using the bigger map,

9 Ms. Edgerton?

10 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Tapuskovic's map?


12 MS. EDGERTON: Is that the question?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the bigger one. I don't want to personalise

14 it. It's the bigger map.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, with respect, the Prosecution's

16 entitled to choose whatever exhibits they might have -- they might wish to

17 put as part of their cross-examination. And if it would assist, in

18 e-court 02617E or 03326 are cut-outs of the area that the witness is

19 pointing to so that everybody is able to see clearly what he's talking

20 about.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Tapuskovic, you have your answer.


23 Q. So now you found Tvrdemici. Now, the notations that you found,

24 would you agree with me, those notations KAG 2 and the numbers below them

25 represent the brigade artillery battery, don't they? 155 -- pardon me?

Page 7340

1 A. I didn't really know the abbreviations, so I really cannot agree

2 with you. I don't know what KAG means.

3 Q. And you wouldn't agree with me then that the notations there 155/4

4 represent an artillery battery of 455-millimetre howitzers?

5 A. I've already told you, I can't see what's written there, but I

6 really don't know what the abbreviation stands for, if it's a howitzer or

7 something else. It could be something else. I really don't know what

8 that means.

9 Q. Perhaps then I could ask you to turn to your screen and ask that

10 65 ter number 03326 be brought up. That's a cut-out of the area beside

11 you on the map.

12 You should be able to see more clearly now. I also see T-130. T

13 denotes a tank, doesn't it?

14 A. Well, I keep telling you but it seems to be in vain. I don't know

15 what the indications are. I don't know what H-130 means, what the other

16 abbreviations stand for, what the VLR-128 means. I mean, it could be a

17 tank or -- I don't know, but it's something that I really cannot talk

18 about because I don't know what it stands for.

19 Q. So are you saying that you, despite giving evidence in detail

20 about elevations and who controlled the elevations, that you are not able

21 to discuss the notations on a military map?

22 A. I cannot talk about abbreviations and the markings, but I can talk

23 about the places that are shown on the map.

24 Q. And are you -- would you disagree with me, Mr. Trapara, if I put

25 to you that the abbreviation KAR is an acronym for the Corps Artillery

Page 7341

1 Group?

2 A. I can agree with you that it means that, but it can mean something

3 else as well. KAG can mean a thousand different things. I can translate

4 or interpret abbreviations in the Serbian language in a hundred different

5 ways. I don't know. Maybe that's what it stands for, but I don't know

6 that. I was never in the corps command. I cannot know what they wrote

7 down and what that meant. I wasn't an active-duty military personnel and

8 I was just a regular civilian.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the rest of his

10 answer.


12 Q. Witness, the interpreter --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, Witness, could you repeat the rest of

14 your answer. The last thing we have is: " ... I was just a regular

15 civilian."

16 What did you say after that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I was just a regular soldier

18 and a platoon commander of the army of Republika Srpska, so I don't know

19 what the higher command responsibilities would involve and I don't know

20 what that particular thing could mean.


22 Q. But you're not disagreeing with me, are you, that this could

23 designate a Corps Artillery Group within the area of responsibility of

24 your brigade?

25 A. I do not agree with you. It could be an abbreviation, but again I

Page 7342

1 keep saying that I don't know what that means.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, just a minute.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that my

4 colleague now is placing herself in the role of the witness. The witness

5 should not -- should be asked to say what he could know, but now he is

6 being asked to do something and it's as if my colleague was herself

7 testifying.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's nothing abnormal about that kind of

9 questioning, and the witness has answered it.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

11 Q. A couple more questions about this map, Mr. Trapara. If we can go

12 a little bit further up to the north, still in the area of responsibility

13 of your brigade, immediately above the letters which designate your

14 brigade's name, for Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, you see notation with the

15 abbreviation in Cyrillic BRAG-1. Would you agree with me that that

16 notation represents the Brigade Artillery Group and its position?

17 A. I don't know. I really don't know the abbreviations. I cannot

18 agree with you because I don't know the abbreviations. I cannot claim to

19 know something that I don't know. In Serbian there are many

20 abbreviations, BR can mean number; AG can mean aggregate, generator, I

21 really don't know.

22 Q. So I take your answer saying you don't recognise the

23 abbreviations, but are you disagreeing with the accuracy of weapons

24 placements as depicted on this map signed by Dragomir Milosevic?

25 A. I don't know if they had been placed there. How could I know as a

Page 7343

1 soldier who was on the front line where our artillery had gone? I don't

2 know how far this is from Sarajevo. There are maybe some 15 to 20

3 kilometres from my house to the Tvrdimici.

4 Q. Well, sir, you testified about locations further than 15 to 20

5 kilometres away from your house when you talked about elevations held by

6 the Bosnian -- the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I naturally assumed

7 that you would know of the situation in terms of weapons within your

8 brigade's actual area of responsibility.

9 A. I'm not saying that there weren't any. There were weapons and

10 positions, but I don't know where the weapons were. I was talking about

11 the hills above Sarajevo. Tvrdimici is not a hill above Sarajevo. It's I

12 don't know how many kilometres away from Sarajevo. I was talking about

13 fire from rifles or automatic rifles or machine-guns from the hills

14 overlooking the area. I didn't talk about this at any point.

15 Q. All right. Thank you then, Mr. Trapara.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if I could ask this map, Your Honour, and

17 the cut-out, so that would be 02617 for the map and the cut-out at 03362

18 [sic] admitted as exhibits, please.


20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 02617 will be admitted

21 as P788; and 65 ter number 03326 will be admitted as P789.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Trapara, what do you know about the use of air-bombs by the

24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps against Bosnian-held territory?

25 A. Air-bombs?

Page 7344

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I don't know about air-bombs. There were no planes. As far as I

3 know the Army of the Republika Srpska didn't have any planes, they weren't

4 able to use planes.

5 Q. So are you saying you don't have any information about extremely

6 high-calibre 250-kilogramme bombs launched from mobile modified launchers

7 against Bosnian-held territory in 1994 and 1995?

8 A. I don't know about that -- just one moment. How could I have any

9 knowledge about that then because it would turn out that the Army of

10 Republika Srpska had planes. So the question is not clear to me. As far

11 as I know, the Army of Republika Srpska didn't have planes and it wasn't

12 able to use air-bombs.

13 Q. What I was actually asking about, sir, was extremely powerful

14 bombs, originally air-bombs, modified so that they could be launched from

15 mobile ground launchers. In fact, one impacted on a location in Hrasnica

16 very close to you in April 1995. Are you aware of that incident?

17 A. No, no, I cannot understand that such an air-bomb could have been

18 dropped an Hrasnica. It's something that I'm hearing for the first time.

19 You're talking about a launcher -- well, I don't know. Hrasnica was

20 dominant. Igman was above, and Igman is the highest mountain from which

21 the entire of Sarajevo was controlled. So I don't know about this. This

22 is the first time that I'm hearing of this from you. Perhaps the best

23 thing would be for you to explain what you consider an air-bomb to be. I

24 cannot understand that that exists. As far as I know, an air-bomb is

25 launched from an aeroplane. Well, as for anything else, this is the first

Page 7345

1 time I'm hearing about that from you.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Can I ask P225 be brought up on the screen for

3 Mr. Trapara, please. And I think the B/C/S version -- both versions will

4 have to go to page 2, please.

5 Q. Sir, this is a daily combat report from the Sarajevo-Romanija

6 Corps to the VRS Main Staff signed by Dragomir Milosevic. Now, at page 2,

7 paragraph 2 -- now I see two English versions on the screen. Yeah. Page

8 2, paragraph 2, under the heading "our forces," you see an entry that

9 says: "In Ilidza a 250-kilo air-bomb was launched at the centre of

10 Hrasnica ..."

11 Do you see the line I'm referring to? It's at the very top of

12 your page in your language, second line.

13 A. I see that. What it says, "In the Ilidza pbr one 120-millimetre

14 mine was fired and one 250-kilogramme aerial air-bomb was launched at the

15 centre of Hrasnica. According to the interception centre the Muslims

16 claim that the 'Luna' rocket had dropped or was dropped."

17 Q. Now, are you saying that this is news to you, that the SRK

18 launched an aerial bomb at Hrasnica in 1995?

19 A. What it says here is the Ilidza Brigade, and this is on the other

20 side completely, and this is the first time that I'm hearing about that.

21 It's completely on the other side of Ilidza. I don't know -- I didn't

22 know that there was an air-bomb that could have been dropped from

23 somewhere other than an aeroplane. As far as I'm concerned, that is a

24 completely new thing for me.

25 Q. So then, sir, you wouldn't know anything about the storage of

Page 7346

1 pieces or components of air-bombs in the Kotorac barracks in May 1995

2 then, would you?

3 A. In Kotorac barracks?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Kotorac never had a barracks.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have document bearing the ter number 03214

7 up on the screen, please.

8 Q. So this, sir, is a document dated 12 May 1995 from

9 Lieutenant-Colonel Solar to the VRS Main Staff logistics, stating that on

10 personal inspection of the brigade he found four pieces of 250-kilo

11 air-bombs, saying the brigade failed to inform them about them.

12 Does this change your mind about weapons being stored in Kotorac?

13 A. It says here: "While touring the 2nd Slpbr in the Kotorac

14 barracks. " This is the 2nd Brigade, it's not the area of responsibility

15 of my brigade, Srbl.

16 Q. Well, sir, Gornji Kotorac and Donji Kotorac being so proximate to

17 one another I would have thought you would have known something about what

18 went on in that location when you were so quick to speak about who

19 controlled hills around Sarajevo far and away outside of the area of

20 responsibility of your corps. Are you saying you don't know anything

21 about what was in the Kotorac barracks?

22 A. A barracks didn't exist in Kotorac. Gornji Kotorac or upper

23 Kotorac is the place of Vojkovici, actually I understand that now. That's

24 where the barracks was Vojkovici. Kotorac, Gornji, Donji, does not have a

25 barracks. Probably there was a mistake. There was a military warehouse

Page 7347

1 there, but I never had access there. But maybe this is a mistake in the

2 name here.

3 Q. So --

4 A. Just one moment, please. Kotorac was populated. What they mean

5 probably is Vojkovici. That could be the mistake.

6 MS. EDGERTON: With that answer, Your Honour, I'd ask that this

7 document be admitted as the next exhibit, please.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As P790, Your Honours.


11 Q. One last question in relation to air-bombs, sir, what do you know

12 about plans to use these air-bombs that we've been talking about on Donji

13 Kotorac?

14 A. I didn't understand your question.

15 Q. Perhaps if I had a document pulled up on the screen in front of

16 you, you would be able to understand just a bit more clearly.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Ter number is 02324, it's P703.

18 Q. You see it now. It's a 26 April 1995 report from the SRK command,

19 head of artillery, Tadija Manojlovic, to the General Staff confirming that

20 on that date a decision was reached to drop air-bombs on the entrance to

21 the tunnel at Donji Kotorac and Hrasnica. Looking at that document,

22 Mr. Trapara, does that refresh any recollection you might have about the

23 use of air-bombs in your immediate vicinity, sir?

24 A. Well, it says here it's the area of responsibility of the Igman

25 Brigade, that's not my brigade. I really don't know about this. If such

Page 7348

1 an air-bomb existed, it could have been fired from Ilidza, if it existed.

2 I don't know that it did, but I don't know.

3 Q. Sir, have you ever met the accused in this case personally?

4 A. [In English] Yes.

5 Q. And when was that?

6 A. [Interpretation] I don't know the precise date. I think when he

7 was appointed corps commander, Mr. Dragomir Milosevic, he went to inspect

8 the entire unit and then he came to inspect my platoon also.

9 Q. So he came to the trenches where you were serving, you and your

10 unit?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that on one occasion -- sorry.

13 A. He didn't actually enter the trench, but he came to the front

14 line.

15 Q. Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion?

16 A. I think it was on two occasions. I'm not absolutely sure. I know

17 it was at least once. I'm not sure about the second time, but it was once

18 or twice as far as Kotorac Donji is concerned.

19 Q. And so the only time you met him is when he came to your post, in

20 fact?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. But you've said before that you weren't a member of the senior

23 corps staff, so then I take from that that you wouldn't have participated

24 in any decision-making at the corps level. Is that right?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 7349

1 Q. So even at the time of the general's visit to your post, you

2 weren't involved of or aware of orders that might have been issued

3 regarding the shelling of Bosnian-held territory, the sniping, or the use

4 of these air-bombs that we've been talking about, would you have?

5 A. Can you repeat your last question.

6 Q. Not being a member of the senior corps staff, you weren't involved

7 or aware of any orders that might have been issued within that corps group

8 or even discussed within that corps group regarding the shelling of

9 Bosnian-held territory, the sniping, or the use of air-bombs, would you

10 have?

11 A. I can't know that. I know there was an express order at my line

12 of responsibility. There was never a sniper, and our orders were not to

13 shoot during the cease-fire from any kind of weapon. Well, I don't know

14 what happened elsewhere, but I know about my platoon. I know what orders

15 we received from the high-ranking command.

16 Q. That's fine, and I certainly accept that. But now because of the

17 situation, of course, during the period of the indictment, in fact

18 probably from very early on in the war in 1992, you never went into

19 Bosnian-held territory, did you?

20 A. From 1992 onwards, I never went on to the territory controlled by

21 the BH government. I was always on the territory of Republika Srpska.

22 Had I gone there, I would never have come back.

23 Q. Obviously it was, at a certain level, dangerous for any number of

24 reasons, wasn't it?

25 A. There was great hatred.

Page 7350

1 Q. But wouldn't you agree that there was also great risk of being hit

2 by rifle-fire, gun-fire, mortar fire? The people who were inside the

3 confrontation lines - and that included Serb civilians - were at great

4 risk every day for their lives. Wouldn't you agree?

5 A. Serb civilians? I don't understand your question. I don't

6 understand what you're getting at. That it was very risky to go on to the

7 territory held by the Bosnian Muslims. Is that what you're asking?

8 That's how I understood your question.

9 Q. You said that it was risky because there was great hatred, but

10 that wouldn't have been the only risk if you would have made your way or

11 found yourself inside the confrontation lines, would it have? You could

12 have been shot any day. You could have been injured or killed by mortar

13 fire any day, couldn't you have? So the --

14 A. [In English] Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. [Interpretation] My house, where I lived, where I slept, was 2 or

17 300 metres away from the front line, and it was exposed to sniper fire and

18 barrage fire on a daily basis and shelling as well from the Muslim side.

19 And after a certain period of time when my late mother was killed, they

20 even killed my dog.

21 Q. I -- sir, you know we extend our sympathies for what you went

22 through in your location and in your situation. But as one Prosecution

23 witness said earlier in this case, there was no monopoly on suffering;

24 both sides suffered. Wasn't that the case?

25 A. Well, that's a fact. It was wartime.

Page 7351

1 Q. And my question to you, sir, was really focused on picking up what

2 you had said in your testimony about the risks of being inside the

3 confrontation lines. While there may well have been strong feelings or,

4 as you said, great hatred, there was also great risk from shelling and

5 sniping or, in fact, some winters from freezing or going hungry, wasn't

6 there?

7 A. No. As for fire, yes, there was shooting from both sides. But as

8 for going hungry, I don't know how they lived there, what they ate,

9 whether they had food, I can't know. There are various kinds of

10 beverages, but many people became rich after the war. All that's Muslim

11 propaganda. I don't believe it.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]


15 Q. I don't have any further questions, Mr. Trapara. Thank you.

16 A. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do have some questions, Your

20 Honour.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Now that we're dealing with the issue raised by

23 my learned friend about going hungry and about food, what was the

24 situation like on your side as regards food?

25 A. Well, after the sanctions imposed by Serbia on Republika Srpska,

Page 7352

1 our situation was worse than theirs. They were being financed by the

2 whole world. They brought food to Sarajevo by plane. 90 per cent of the

3 food that came to Sarajevo was sent to the town. Nothing reached the Serb

4 parts.

5 Q. Thank you. You said that your first commander, because you

6 answered a question about who your commanders were, you said the first was

7 the late Bosko Vujadin. How did he become late?

8 A. He was killed in 1992 or 1993 in an ambush, he and another

9 soldier.

10 Q. After that my learned friend asked you something about indirect

11 shooting, and I'm asking you now whether one can shoot indirectly if one

12 does not see the target?

13 A. No, one can't do that.

14 Q. You were shown this map to your right.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Wasn't indirect shooting, firing, a reference to

16 mortars?

17 Ms. Edgerton, the -- you had asked some questions about --


19 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- indirect firing.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. At page 58 my question was: "You must be

21 aware that mortar crews can hit a target that they can't see?"

22 And the answer was: "Yes, of course."

23 And then I asked whether -- if that was why -- that's why they

24 called mortars indirect fire weapons, and the witness then agreed.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that what you're referring to, Mr. Tapuskovic?

Page 7353

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then you haven't represented it accurately. The

3 cross-examination related to indirect firing from mortars, and the witness

4 did agree that that was possible. And we have heard evidence in this case

5 about that.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] He said that it was possible, but

7 let him then explain about this. Indirect firing is possible, but is

8 indirect firing possible -- well, let him explain what he understands by

9 "indirect firing" and whether it's possible to fire indirectly if one

10 does not see the target one is aiming at.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not going to ask him because we have had

12 enough evidence on that in the case.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's one thing to

14 fire at random and quite another thing to fire indirectly because any

15 targeting, whether it's indirect or not, is at a target. Random firing is

16 something quite different. So I'm asking whether it's possible to fire

17 indirectly from a mortar without seeing the target one is aiming at.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you want to put that question to the

19 witness? Because you didn't put that question to the witness.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the question I want to put

21 to the witness.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. That's the question you should have

23 put originally.

24 Witness, what is the answer to that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first understood Mr. Tapuskovic to

Page 7354

1 be referring to shooting from a rifle. That's why I said it was

2 impossible to do it indirectly. With mortars, it's very difficult to fire

3 indirectly. You have to see your target. That's my opinion, but I don't

4 really know a lot about mortars. There was not a single mortar at the

5 line that I was at. It was all only infantry weapons where I was.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I approach the

7 map for ten seconds, just to take a look at it so I can put a question

8 about it. Can I approach the large map and take a look at it so I can put

9 my question to the witness?


11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. If you can take a look at the exact date on that map.

13 A. The 31st of August, 1995.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you know what the

15 witness who drew up this map said about when it was made, but that's a

16 matter of comparison and it's not for this witness. I would like --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: My friend may be mistaken, but this map wasn't yet

19 in evidence, so I don't understand first of all his comment what the

20 witness who drew-up this map said about it when it was made, and I would

21 object to his comment as being inappropriate as well.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Refrain from comments of that kind. Refrain from

23 all comments. Ask questions that relate to the evidence, Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I may be wrong, but I'm not aware

25 of it.

Page 7355

1 Q. But only the 31st of August, 1995, do you remember what stage the

2 conflict was in on that date, what was happening around that time at the

3 separation lines. Do you remember what happened then on the 31st of

4 August, 1995 --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer.

6 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but with respect, that's

7 not something that arises from the cross-examination.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: How does it arise, Mr. Tapuskovic?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend

10 showed the witness a map dated the 31st of August, 1995. We dealt with

11 these maps. The 31st of August, 1995, was the first day of the NATO

12 air-strikes. That's why it's important. Does the witness know what went

13 on in those days, around that time, because this is a map from the end of

14 the war and it was formed under the most difficult wartime circumstances.

15 That's why the date of the map is so important.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but are you proposing now to elicit evidence

17 about the NATO air-strikes?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, but I want to ask whether the

19 witness knows what was happening around the 31st of August, 1995, because

20 this is directly linked to the characteristics of this map. The positions

21 that have been entered in here correspond to that point in time. That's

22 not the point in time when heavy weapons were excluded. That was in

23 February, and the weapons were returned later on. This was the time of

24 the greatest offensive.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on, Mr. Tapuskovic. We rule that it doesn't

Page 7356

1 arise.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Well, let's look at P789, that's a Prosecution exhibit, it's

4 another map.

5 Q. Can you indicate on this map the place where Donji Kotorac is

6 located and can you mark it, please?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours, I actually even had to check

9 with my colleague, but how does this arise from cross, asking one to mark

10 a new location on a map that's been entered into evidence?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't mark anything.

12 Mr. Tapuskovic, what is this about?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we listened to what my learned

16 friend dealt with about the positions of these weapons that the witness

17 said he knew nothing about, when he shows where Kotorac is, then it will

18 follow quite logically that from the place where he was, there were no

19 heavy weapons nearby marked in any way. You can see that Donji Kotorac is

20 on the separation line itself, and looking at this map within 8 kilometres

21 of that location, if each of these squares represents 2 kilometres, there

22 were no heavy weapons anywhere close. So when he shows where Donji

23 Kotorac is, this will become quite clear in relation to the positions my

24 learned friend was insisting on, Donji Kotorac, if he only shows where it

25 is and marks it, and nothing more.

Page 7357

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

2 MS. EDGERTON: I'm reinforced in my objection, Your Honour, now

3 that I've heard my friend's submission. This is squarely not something

4 that he's entitled to do in re-examination.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is not the purpose of re-examination. Move

7 on.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P225, P225 -- or

9 rather, P790. I didn't note it down correctly. It was those documents.

10 Just a moment, Your Honours.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was right the first time, 790.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you must get a move on. Let us

14 move on. Either you have a question or you don't. If you don't, we'll

15 conclude.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was right the first time. I

17 said P790.

18 Q. This document was shown to you my learned friend, and she insisted

19 on the barracks. Please read the first paragraph where reference is made

20 to these matters while visiting. What does it say here, please?

21 A. "While visiting the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade in the

22 Kotorac barracks we discovered by personal inspection that they possessed

23 four pieces of 250-kilogramme M-72 aerial bombs without fuses and rocket

24 tensions and with mechanically damaged stabilisers and bomb bodies. We

25 did not know that the bombs existed and the brigade failed to inform us

Page 7358

1 about them."

2 Q. Thank you and the next sentence.

3 A. "According to their information, FAB were recently dug out in the

4 Krupac stone pit during engineering works. We ask you to --"

5 Q. Thank you. Can you draw any conclusion from this?

6 A. I've already said I never heard of this. I didn't know it

7 existed.

8 Q. But that's food for thought and that's not your job. Thank you.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

11 Witness, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for giving it.

12 You may now leave.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness, please.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we were informed

16 that the witness is experiencing some ear pain, so he's not readily

17 available here at the Tribunal; otherwise he is here in The Hague.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, is this the witness? I see.

20 Okay.

21 Let the witness make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

25 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 7359

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honours.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, tell us your last and first name, please.

7 A. My name is Stjepan Djukic.

8 Q. You were born on the 15th of January, 1972?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please wait for the entire question to be recorded before

11 answering. So far this has been working because the questions and answers

12 were short, but please wait for my question to be recorded completely.

13 You were born in Hadzici, in Ilijas municipality?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You completed your primary education in Ilijas?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You completed your secondary education in Ilidza in 1992?

18 A. [No interpretation].

19 Q. What were you supposed to do right after you completed your

20 education?

21 A. After I completed my education I was supposed to serve under the

22 laws of the then-FRY, and having turned 18 I was supposed to serve my

23 military term.

24 Q. Thank you. When did you begin with your military service?

25 A. I began my military service on the 15th of March, 1991, in Banja

Page 7360

1 Luka. I was to be trained as a member of the armoured mechanised unit.

2 Q. This was March 1991 when you went to serve your military term.

3 What did you feel like?

4 A. To be honest, at that time anyone coming from -- or being of

5 Serbian ethnic background considered serving a military term an honour;

6 therefore, I went to do that gladly.

7 Q. Were you able to foresee that anything unpleasant or problematic

8 might await you while you served your military term?

9 A. At the time when I left, when I was getting ready to join the JNA,

10 at that time I wasn't even contemplating any unpleasant situations or

11 problems that I might encounter there.

12 Q. Please explain to us the following. You were in Banja Luka. Were

13 there any changes and when did problems begin occurring?

14 A. Upon my arrival in the JNA, in Banja Luka, to the training centre

15 for armoured and mechanised units in Zaluzani, there were no problems,

16 there were no unpleasant situations and I couldn't foresee any of that

17 coming any time soon.

18 Q. Thank you. As a soldier, what were you supposed to do? Were you

19 trained in anything?

20 A. Upon my arrival into the barracks at Zaluzani to the training

21 centre for armoured and mechanised units, I was trained to be a driver of

22 the T-55 tank.

23 Q. Concerning the rest of your service with the JNA, were you

24 transferred anywhere and what was going on?

25 A. I would kindly ask you to allow more time for me to be able to

Page 7361

1 explain my military term with the JNA in full with your following

2 questions.

3 Q. Okay. Please let us explain whether you were transferred and what

4 was happening. Did you become upset over anything at a certain point in

5 time?

6 A. I understand your question. After the initial training period was

7 completed in Banja Luka, I was transferred to Bjelovar in the Republic of

8 Croatia. Upon my arrival in Bjelovar, I was quite surprised by the

9 unusual situation I encountered. There was a great concern in the

10 barracks, since the barracks were without electricity, water, and within

11 its perimeter there were embankments for the soldiers who were supposed to

12 stand guard. In the dorm --

13 Q. Excuse me. I understand your need to discuss such details, but

14 tell me some of the key things since we need to move along faster.

15 A. Very well. I stayed there for some five to seven days. In the

16 town we could hear firing, and I prayed God that I leave Belgrade and be

17 transferred -- Bjelovar and be transferred somewhere else. And

18 thankfully, that happened. I left Bjelovar for Koprivnica. As opposed to

19 Bjelovar, things were quite calmer there.

20 Q. When did you encounter problems?

21 A. After a short while, the problems began in Slunj. We were in the

22 field. We were supposed to establish a buffer zone there between Serbs

23 and Croats, so as try and prevent conflicts. After that we were

24 transferred to Varazdin, where problems escalated. In the second half of

25 June, I believe, or towards end June, there were great problems in

Page 7362

1 Slovenia. For us, the young soldiers there, it had a great negative

2 impact and the pervading atmosphere encompassed the entire barracks in

3 Varazdin. We were provoked from outside the perimeter of the barracks.

4 People were trying to persuade us that we should desert, that we should

5 skip the army since we had nothing to do with that. We were put under

6 psychological pressure, and speakers were mounted around the barracks --

7 Q. Can you tell me exactly what happened, something that was more

8 important. When was the situation the worst? Please move along more

9 speedily.

10 A. I have to state that what followed was basically a siege of the

11 barracks. There was no electricity. We had to pump water and until the

12 18th of October the situation remained as such. It was then that fire was

13 opened on the barracks, a soldier was wounded, and I think we also had

14 several soldiers killed.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, it's about time for the break.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe this would help to change the character of

17 things for our recommencement tomorrow morning, Your Honour, but I rise on

18 the point of relevancy, in the first place, because we're still outside of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina; and secondly, this is completely outside of what

20 was disclosed as what might be this witness's potential testimony.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I've been giving the witness a little time

22 to come to something that is more pertinent, and tomorrow we will see

23 whether he has anything to offer that is relevant. Please bear that in

24 mind, Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

Page 7363

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

2 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.