Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7501

1 Tuesday, 3 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should explain at the outset that we are late

8 in starting because we had some technical issues that had to be resolved.

9 Mr. Tapuskovic, you are to continue.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic: [Continued]

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours,

14 thank you. With us is Awuskha Laloe, who is an intern of ours. She is

15 here to try and enhance our ability to communicate with the accused. I

16 thought it necessary to advise you on her presence here, on the presence

17 of another member of the team.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's very good of you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Djukic, let us pick up where we left off a few days ago.

21 First of all, to start with, can you tell the Judges when you

22 joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

23 A. I joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in the second half of May or

24 in early June 1992.

25 Q. Can you tell the Judges something about the place where you were.

Page 7502

1 Who were the people there who joined the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

2 A. I can tell you something about the territory where I was. On that

3 territory, the people who joined were mainly the local citizens and I was

4 one of them.

5 Q. Thank you. Which brigade was that?

6 A. At first, it was called the Ilijas Brigade.

7 Q. What did you mean by saying at first it was called the Ilijas

8 Brigade?

9 A. I wanted to say that the Ilijas Brigade as such existed until

10 1994. I was a member of it. As of 1994, my area of responsibility fell

11 under another brigade, when General Milosevic assumed command of the

12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

13 Q. Can you tell us who commanded that brigade when the

14 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps commander was General Dragomir Milosevic?

15 A. The commander of the 1st Romanija brigade that I was a member of

16 was Colonel Vlado Lizdek.

17 Q. Can you tell the Judges when General Dragomir Milosevic assumed

18 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

19 A. General Milosevic assumed command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

20 in the summer of 1994.

21 Q. Until his arrival, what were you doing in the Sarajevo-Romanija

22 Corps? What were you?

23 A. At the beginning, in 1992, and the first half of it was relatively

24 calm, I was a private.

25 Q. Did I understand you well, you mentioned 1992 and you said that it

Page 7503

1 was calm.

2 A. Well, if I may explain. In the territory where I was, until

3 mid-June of that year, until the 12th of June, that territory was pretty

4 calm. Until the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina carried out a mass murder

5 in the village of Crmaljino [phoen], which is not far from our -- my

6 village.

7 Q. What did happen exactly?

8 A. That morning, at dawn, one could hear shooting from my village.

9 We didn't know what was happening. It lasted shortly, I'd say for a few

10 hours.

11 After that, we learned that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the

12 Muslim forces entered the village and committed a disgraceful act, that

13 is, the people that were found were killed and houses set on fire. They

14 destroyed the property there.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm actually I'm raising on the point

17 of relevancy and one might have expected, but relevancy because while I

18 see we are outside of the indictment period and far outside of the

19 indictment period, we actually have no idea what area this witness is

20 talking about other than maybe somewhere in the municipality of Ilijas,

21 and I for one, Your Honour, am not in a position to even preliminarily

22 assess the relevancy until we have some further definition or

23 understanding of exactly where he is talking about.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you have heard the objection.

25 What is your response to it?

Page 7504

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was about to try to get from

2 the witness some additional information about where Ilijas is, in whose

3 area of responsibility it is, and I believe that the time of the beginning

4 of the conflict is of importance in order to understand the behaviour of

5 those people who took up arms. The general context, that is. Which is

6 very important. I've only just begun examining the witness on that and I

7 wanted to gain some explanation in order for the Chamber to understand

8 where Ilijas is and whether it was within the AOR of the Sarajevo-Romanija

9 Corps.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: But that by itself wouldn't make it relevant,

11 even if it were within the area of responsibility of the corps.

12 Please remember the golden rule that evidence of Serb suffering is

13 not by itself necessarily relevant.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we'll allow you to go further but

19 you must establish very quickly the relevance of this evidence, otherwise,

20 I'll tell to you proceed to another area of evidence that is relevant.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

22 spontaneously said some things I had not asked about. I did not stop him,

23 though. I tried to move on to 1994. However, the witness volunteered the

24 information about 1992.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you just move on? I've said that I

Page 7505

1 allowed it.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Djukic, when you said that you were a member of the 1st

4 Sarajevo Brigade, at that time in 1994 what were you then exactly at the

5 moment when the 1st Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was commanded by General

6 Dragomir Milosevic?

7 A. At that time, too, I was a soldier, a member of the army of the

8 Republika Srpska, when General Milosevic assumed the command of the corps.

9 Q. Thank you. What were your tasks up until that time?

10 A. Before that, I was a tank driver.

11 Q. Can you tell the Judges what was it that happened in 1994 that

12 remains etched in your memory as something of importance, before General

13 Dragomir Milosevic assumed his position?

14 A. I failed to understand, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 Q. Did something happen that year, something that had to do with

16 heavy weapons?

17 A. Yes. It did have to do with the heavy weaponry.

18 I, as an ordinary soldier remember General Milosevic because, at

19 that time, heavy weaponry with withdrawn outside of the immediate zone of

20 20 kilometres. Also, during some intensive offensives, he managed to stop

21 Muslims from advancing.

22 Q. You said you were a tank driver. That year after the heavy

23 weapons were withdrawn outside of the 20-kilometre zone were there any

24 changes in your unit?

25 A. Yes. That is what I wanted to say before you interrupted me.

Page 7506

1 What I mentioned the pull-out of the heavy weapons out of the 20-kilometre

2 zone, tanks were pulled out as well, and guns, Howitzers, mortars, and all

3 that happened during General Milosevic's time. It was withdrawn and

4 deployed in the wider area of the Nisici plateau. That's whey now about.

5 However I heard of another area at Trnovo that there too a large number of

6 pieces were pulled out.

7 Q. Why in those two particular areas or directions?

8 A. I think it's clear if I say outside of the 20-kilometre zone,

9 starting from Sarajevo, that it means that it was the area of the 1st

10 Romanija Brigade. At Nisici, the distance is about 30 kilometres.

11 Q. Did you receive any other assignments? Before that you had driven

12 a tank. Were you given any other assignments or any other pieces of

13 equipment?

14 A. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 Q. You have to explain it to the Judges.

16 A. I apologise.

17 Yes. After three additional tanks arrived, a tank platoon was

18 formed. The platoon was commanded at first Panto Bozic and since I was

19 the one who was the most familiar with the area, I was appointed as his

20 deputy in that part of the area of responsibility.

21 Q. Do you know from which locations those tanks arrived?

22 A. Those tanks came from Sarajevo, for the most part. From Ilijas,

23 Hadzic, and Ilidza.

24 Q. I would like to show you a map which will enable us to explain

25 things further to the Judges.

Page 7507

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is DD00-4064. It is one of

2 the maps out of a set of maps forwarded by the Prosecution.

3 Q. Can you please indicate the Ilijas municipality, where you lived

4 and tell us to which town it belonged?

5 A. When we're talking about the Ilijas municipality, it's a part of

6 the city of Sarajevo.

7 Q. Can you please indicate the boundaries.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. In terms of what you marked there, are you able to point out for

10 the Judges how many municipalities there were in the Sarajevo area?

11 A. The town of Sarajevo consisted of the following municipalities.

12 Ilijas to the north, that would be the municipality of Ilijas, bordering

13 on Vogosca municipality; then Centar; Novi Grad including new Sarajevo;

14 Hadzici; Ilidza; new Sarajevo; Trnovo; old town, Stari Grad; and Pale.

15 Excuse me, please, I apologise for my markings, but basically that

16 would be it.

17 Q. Are you familiar with the geographic characteristics of the

18 territories of Ilidza, Stari Grad, Novi Grad, Novo Sarajevo? Could you

19 please indicate a few points that you know are higher points in relation

20 to their surroundings?

21 A. Yes. But you would just need to give me a little bit more time,

22 because they are hard to see.

23 Q. If you go from municipality to municipality, you can just give us

24 an approximate position.

25 A. Well, I can talk about the approximate position in the

Page 7508

1 municipalities that I'm particularly familiar with, and that would be

2 Ilijas, Vogosca, Hadzici, and Ilidza municipalities, where I had many

3 relatives of mine.

4 I'm going to start from Ilijas. Is it necessary to actually mark

5 the places or just to speak about them?

6 Q. These points that have to do with the municipalities of Ilidza,

7 Vogosca, Centar, can you please tell us something about that, if you were

8 in a position to be familiar with these places, as you said?

9 A. Since I left my home in 1994 and fled to the Vogosca municipality,

10 I can then describe the characteristics for that area.

11 The dominant elevations that were held by the armed forces of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Vogosca were as follows. Zuc as one of the most

13 dominant elevations.

14 Q. Can you please indicate that with a circle?

15 A. I really cannot find it here. I know where it is in my head but I

16 really cannot see it here.

17 Q. All right. Well, then, just wait for a second. Can you at least

18 indicate the places in Vogosca, Ilidza, and Centar if you're unable to

19 point them out?

20 A. In Vogosca it was Zuc, Orlic, Hum, these were the most important

21 and the highest elevations under the control of -- they were controlled

22 from the town via the Rosulje Hotun settlements. The second municipality

23 that I can mention is Hadzici. Then Ilidza. That's where the Mount Igman

24 was, which is over 1600 metres above sea level. Then Crni Vrh, Golo Brdo,

25 those areas also made it possible to have control over the southern part

Page 7509

1 of Trnovo municipality.

2 Also Mount Orman, which is about 1.200 metres high, and other

3 places.

4 Q. Can you also tell us something about the southern area, tell us

5 what you know and then we can finish with that.

6 A. The municipality here in the southern part is Mojmilo. Actually,

7 Mojmilo is one of the most important elevations through which it was

8 possible to control the entire area of Grbavica as well as the

9 Grbavica-Vrace road, and that then goes in the direction of the north-east

10 towards Pale.

11 Q. And you said that all this was under the control of the army of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And were any of those elevations under the

13 control of the army of Republika Srpska?

14 A. When we're talking about these dominant elevations, which I

15 mentioned, especially elevations Zuc, Orlic, and the others that I

16 mentioned, the other ones, these elevations were held by the Muslims by

17 The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The -- they -- those forces held the

18 main peak. The lines of separation were close to that, some 100 metres

19 off, so that when we're talking about these dominant elevations what I

20 would like to say, also when we're talking about the city of Sarajevo, is

21 that besides the dominant elevations there were also some other locations,

22 buildings or facilities that were built and that were under the control of

23 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that offered a view overlooking the

24 elevations and the points held by the army of Republika Srpska.

25 Q. I asked if you knew about any elevation that was under the control

Page 7510

1 of the army of Republika Srpska to the east and did you know --

2 A. Of course I knew.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

4 Ms. Edgerton.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, this has gone on for some time now and

6 perhaps my fault in that I let it go, but this whole line of questioning

7 is without any foundation whatsoever to underpin the witness' answers.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean by it's lacking in foundation.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, we still don't know where he was

10 serving in his own municipality and now we're on the far west side or the

11 south side of Sarajavo without any evidence of whether he's visited these

12 areas, he's received reports about any events going on these areas, he's

13 had any experience in mapping so he's able to talk about the heights that

14 he is discussing with such knowledge and familiarity.

15 I would suggest, Your Honour, there is no foundation and the line

16 of question is inappropriate up to this point without that being

17 established.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you must get from the witness the

19 basis of his knowledge of these matters. How did he acquire this

20 knowledge and familiarity with these matters?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Djukic, you heard what His Honour Judge Robinson said and I

23 wanted to ask you as this is very important how you happen to know all of

24 this, that the elevations were of such characteristics and under whose

25 control they were. Were you familiar with that as a soldier? Simply, can

Page 7511

1 you please say how you knew these things?

2 A. Well, I'll just be very simple. This is the territory of the town

3 of Sarajevo and I indicated that in red marker. This is the place where I

4 was born, the town of Ilijas. I went to school in Ilidza. I had close

5 relatives throughout Sarajevo. I had relatives in each municipality,

6 close relatives.

7 When we look at the distance of the municipalities that I talked

8 about, it's a fact that they're all very close. As a pupil and student

9 since I attended the forestry technical school before the war and I'm very

10 familiar with these areas, especially the part of Ilidza, yes, Ilidza and

11 Mount Igman, which we actually -- or where we actually planted trees

12 during our studies when we would come to specific places, elevations the

13 professors would show us what could be seen and what was known about that

14 particular place.

15 Q. All right. And can you explain to the Judges now how you know who

16 was at those elevations during the conflict. How did you find that out?

17 A. Your Honours, well, it's just like I answered earlier. It's

18 logical. If I had relatives in the Vogosca municipality, that was holding

19 the lines in the Vogosca municipality in Sarajevo, then it was known, if

20 the length of the lines was 150 metres, who was up and who was down.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this map please

22 be tendered as a Defence exhibit.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, before we take a position on that,

24 I would suggest that you ask the witness to mark with letters some of the

25 circles that he has made, because otherwise it will be impossible for us

Page 7512

1 understand what the map means subsequently.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do that, Your Honour,

3 Judge Harhoff. I meant to do that, but I forgot.

4 Q. This place where you were born, can you please indicate the circle

5 that you made with the mark the circle with the letter K. And the place

6 where you went to school, can you mark that with a letter R?

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. One of the arrows, the one indicating to the right, can you place

9 the letter P there, and I'm going to say that in all of these directions

10 the witness had relatives that he visited frequently and he went to

11 this -- these areas as a -- as a pupil. So can you please indicate all of

12 these areas with the letter T.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Can you also tell the Judges where you worked. Where was your job

15 located, if you can tell us that?

16 A. I didn't work before.

17 Q. You came from the army and when the war broke out you didn't have

18 a job?

19 A. Yes, that is correct. I wanted to tell all of that from the

20 beginning as a complete story but I kept being interrupted all the time

21 and that's why my testimony seems to have become quite complicated.

22 Q. Well, you had some health problems so we have to use the time that

23 we have left for more important things.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

25 exhibit, this map to be exhibited in this form, Your Honours.

Page 7513

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As D280, Your Honours.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Can you please tell the Judges how many tanks your unit had at a

5 certain point?

6 A. When it was formed, my unit had five tanks.

7 Q. Thank you. And what happened when, in the summer of 1994, General

8 Dragomir Milosevic became the commanding officer of the Sarajevo-Romanija

9 Corps? What happened in the military sense?

10 A. When General Milosevic came to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as its

11 commander, the following things happened. Since he stopped the offensives

12 at Serb positions and established lines of defence, a truce came in late

13 1994 and early 1995, I think, which was absolutely respected from our

14 side. Perhaps there was some shooting from infantry weapons on the line,

15 but that is not important. While on the other side --

16 Q. You said June 1994 was the month that he came there. What

17 happened towards the end of 1994? Did something happened in late 1994, in

18 particular where you were?

19 A. Towards the end of 1994, I think in November, there was an attack

20 in the wider area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The attack was

21 thwarted, and lines of defence were established along the entire zone of

22 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

23 Q. Did you ever meet General Milosevic in person during the conflict?

24 A. During the conflict, I was wounded. I never met General Milosevic

25 at that time. However, I did get to meet him in 1995, in February I

Page 7514

1 believe, when he personally visited my unit.

2 Q. Where and how did you get wounded, and when?

3 A. I was wounded three times. The last time was one and a half

4 kilometres away from my house in 1994.

5 Q. After that activity in November which was stopped, what followed?

6 A. After that, I returned to my unit and was appointed deputy

7 commander of the tank, platoon commander. What followed was a lull, a

8 truce of sorts, which lasted until the beginning of summer in 1995. As an

9 experienced soldier by that time, I realised that the armed forces of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina headed by their commanders made use of that time in

11 order to prepare themselves for an all-out offensive in the area of the

12 Nisici plateau. Indeed, it took place.

13 Q. What was going on in that period, which, as you said, were

14 preparation times? Were you able to gather any information on that?

15 A. I know, for instance, that immediately before the offensive in

16 1995, in June, what became more frequent was artillery shelling on the

17 part of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As a soldier, it reminded me, or,

18 rather, I could read from it that what would follow was an eventual

19 offensive in the area of the Nisici plateau. We also received some

20 information which pointed to the fact that the army of Herzegovina was

21 preparing a large-scale and the strongest offensive as of yet against the

22 Serb positions in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija

23 Corps.

24 Q. What followed in June? Can you tell us what things looked like in

25 your area?

Page 7515

1 A. I remember that it was early morning, between 4.00 and 5.00 a.m.,

2 although I don't know the exact date. In any case, I received a phone

3 call from the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Cacic, who informed

4 me that we should be in the state of readiness since there was to be an

5 attack against the positions of the army of Republika Srpska.

6 Q. What did that look like? Were you able to find out which AB and H

7 units were attacking you? As you said you had five tanks?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you able to notice anything as regards the enemy forces?

10 A. First we had one tank, then we had four. At that time, we knew

11 that they had more tanks than we did. I don't know how many exactly

12 though.

13 Q. What lines do you have in mind? Where was the separation line in

14 your area and what did those separation lines there comprise?

15 A. In the area I'm referring to, which is the Nisici plateau, the

16 lines of separation -- well, the distance between the belligerent parties

17 was 800 metres at the minimum and in some places the maximum distance was

18 1300 metres. On average, the distance was some 1.000 or 1.200 metres.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I just want the witness to clarify

20 a bit where we are in time and where we are in space and where we are in

21 terms of weaponry. I think the witness said before that when his brigade

22 was established they had four tanks and now he said that at first they had

23 one tank, so that is one question that I would like the witness to

24 clarify. And, secondly, where exactly were those tanks deployed in June

25 1995?

Page 7516

1 Could you please clarify this?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I wanted to conclude with

3 that very topic.

4 Q. Witness, you said that at first in the beginning you had one tank?

5 A. Yes, that is correct. I also said that at the beginning, I was

6 with the Ilijas Brigade and they had that one tank. What followed was

7 that we received an additional four tanks.

8 Q. Thank you. After the exclusion zone was established you said that

9 you received some tanks from Ilijas and other parts of Sarajevo who were

10 in turn -- which were in turn brought to the exclusion zone?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And you also said they were 30 kilometres away from Sarajevo at

13 that point at the Nisici plateau?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. Those tanks, were they ever moved from those positions, having in

16 mind the things that followed? Did they ever return the same way they

17 came from?

18 A. The tanks that were -- that comprised the tank platoon when it was

19 formed in 1994 were at the Nisici plateau. The tanks remained there until

20 the end of war. The exact location was Jelik, the base there. They were

21 not moved outside the immediate area of Nisici.

22 Q. Had it not been for the tanks and some other heavy weaponry which

23 had been pulled out, what would have happened in the offensive?

24 A. I apologise, however, have I have to go back in time in order for

25 me to tell you that before General Milosevic's arrival, we saw an

Page 7517

1 expansion or the taking over of parts of territory held by the army of

2 Republika Srpska. When he assumed command that trend was stopped. I'm

3 saying this to try and show that General Milosevic did two great things

4 for which I appreciate his work as a soldier.

5 First and foremost, he stopped the offensives of the army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the pull-out of heavy weaponry beyond the

7 20-kilometre zone. What was achieved in that way was that any possibility

8 of taking over the road between the Nisici plateau, Ilijas and Vogosca was

9 prevented.

10 Q. Can you draw that line on the map?

11 A. You mean the separation line?

12 Q. No, no. The direction of their operations by which they wanted to

13 cut off the portions of that road.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. This is by way of information for the Judges. I wanted to show

16 you another document, since you mentioned the offensive which began on the

17 15th. I wanted to ask you whether this document corresponds to what

18 happened that morning and the following days. It is DD00-3323.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what does all this evidence

20 indicate that is of benefit to your client?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not asking the

22 witness about the casualties and the time, although he could tell us about

23 that. He is explaining a military situation which was to determine the

24 fate of both the troops and people in that area. He was at the Nisici

25 plateau where the offensive began. Had it had been successful because it

Page 7518

1 was carried out with the use of 150.000 troops, the road would have been

2 cut off, the road between Vogosca and Nisici, all the way up to Vogosca,

3 as well as the region in the north --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, how does it assist us in determining the

5 issue of the liability of the accused?

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to go back

7 yet again to something I've already discussed here.

8 I repeat that as General Milosevic's counsel, I believe that the

9 intensity of activity of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time or,

10 rather the position of the defence is that the activities of the SRK were

11 by way of a response against the activities of the army of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina rather than being directed at civilians. Also, the

13 number of victims in the territory controlled by the SRK are a good

14 indication of the intensity of activities conducted by the army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The intensity of fighting caused response on the part

16 of the SRK, which was unavoidable. They were necessary to defend

17 themselves rather than being a campaign directed at killing civilians and

18 causing civilian casualties. The intensity of fighting had to reflect or,

19 rather, impact the things that were taking place. It resulted based on

20 the activity of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the number of victims

21 is a good indication as to the intensity of combat.

22 These actions were forced, rather, the SRK was forced to act. If

23 we were to ask the witness how many casualties there were on the part of

24 the SRK and Serbian civilians we would come up with a specific figure.

25 However, what think is important for me to do is to show that the

Page 7519

1 intensity of combat operations on the part of the ABiH was such that needs

2 to be taken into account in the overall context. It had nothing to do

3 with the campaign --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you. So your contention, then,

5 is that the intensity of the fighting, negatives, contradicts the

6 Prosecution's theory of a campaign of shelling and sniping. It

7 contradicts the Prosecution's allegation of -- of terror, because you're

8 saying that the terror inhered in the -- and was an outcome from the -- or

9 of the intensity of the fighting.

10 Let me just ask Ms. Edgerton just on that particular matter

11 whether she has any submissions. This really is the -- is becoming now

12 the -- clear to us to be the essence of the Defence case, that the

13 intensity of the fighting necessarily prompted a response from the SRK and

14 that intensity of the fighting contradicts any -- any allegation of a

15 campaign and more particularly contradicts the allegation of terror

16 because the terror was a natural outcome of that intensity.

17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if I -- just one or two sentences on

18 that.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, all right.

20 MR. WAESPI: Even if the SRK responded because they were provoked,

21 that doesn't allow them to respond indiscriminately at civilian targets.

22 That's the Prosecution case. It's not responding to legitimate waging of

23 war. It's responding indiscriminately by shelling civilian targets, by

24 not engaging military targets, by sniping civilian targets as we have

25 outlined in our schedules to the indictment. That is the Prosecution's

Page 7520

1 case. So even if you respond to an action within an hour, perhaps with

2 minutes, you have to respond to the source of fire and not to military

3 targets. That's the Prosecution's case.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And not to civilian targets.

5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we are understanding the case of both

7 parties and that's the purpose of the questioning.

8 Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic. Not on the topic. We have just

9 concluded the discussion on that topic. Proceed with the questioning of

10 the witness.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to

12 continue in this spirit and to prove the intensity of the fighting in that

13 location, I would like to show the witness two documents, DD00-3323.

14 Can we zoom in a little bit on the document, please.

15 MS. EDGERTON: There was no translation when I initially received

16 this a few days ago. Is there no translation now?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, is there any translation of this

18 document?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do actually have the document.

20 Well, maybe I won't show him this document then. I will show him the

21 other document. I'm sorry, I did -- I thought I had a translation but I

22 don't have a translation. So perhaps instead of this document we can

23 look at document DD00-28 --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, if you wish to look at it, we

25 can. It's very short. I mean, we do apply that practice.

Page 7521

1 MS. EDGERTON: I wasn't objecting. I was just asking about the

2 status of the translation.


4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to bother you with

5 that, but perhaps we can put a question about that document, so let us

6 look at first then DD00-3323.

7 Q. Witness, then you will have to read it slowly and carefully so

8 that the interpreters could translate it. You can read the heading. And

9 can I please ask you to read the entire first paragraph.

10 A. "Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, command of the 4th

11 Battalion of the 105th Mountain Brigade, strictly confidential number

12 105/4-1157 Ravanjsko Polje, 15th of June, 1995. Interim combat report.

13 Section 1 to 25, Vares 2-4 and 4-4. Based on previously issued orders at

14 0600 hours on the 15th of June, 1995, offensive actions were launched in

15 three given -- along three given axes."

16 I think that it says "our main axis."

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can

18 place the document on the ELMO. It is better -- it's a better copy. It

19 says "our tank."

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be placed on the ELMO.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Our tank and mortars fired about 10

22 tank and several mortar shells at enemy targets for purposes of

23 preparation for an infantry breakthrough. The enemy responded or returned

24 fire from Howitzers and mortars at our tank at Stuparovac and along the

25 left wing in the section of the area of responsibility of the 2nd

Page 7522

1 Company."

2 Q. Thank you. Can you see that Stuparovo is mentioned here and you

3 heard about this action and you already said something about combat over

4 those few days. What do you know about that?

5 A. This proves what I said earlier, that Armed Forces of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina were actively preparing attacks at positions of the army of

7 Republika Srpska, which is supported by this document.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this

10 document as a Defence exhibit.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Ms. Edgerton is on her feet.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, because I wasn't objecting

13 earlier doesn't mean I am not objecting now on different grounds. I see

14 absolutely no connection in this document to anything to do with Nisici

15 plateau which, in fact in and of itself, the witness has already testified

16 is some 30 kilometres outside of Sarajevo, so my objection is then on two

17 grounds, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Being what? Relevance and?

19 MS. EDGERTON: In fact, relevance for two different reasons, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all of this is the

23 area of responsibility of the SRK. This action along with this other

24 document, this action at Stuparovo, so this action and the document that I

25 will show indicates the axis of attack of the army of Bosnia and

Page 7523

1 Herzegovina precisely with the targets that they had in mind which the

2 army of Republika Srpska had to protect and to which they responded in an

3 adequate way. I believe that this document shows a specific situation

4 whereby there had to be an appropriate military action in response to tank

5 fire. On the day the offensive began, well, this document convincingly

6 proves what happened on the 15th of June along all the lines of the front

7 within the area of responsibility of the SRK. I already mentioned before

8 a paragraph from the -- I'm going to repeat it --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Given that it is 30 miles -- 30 kilometres from

10 Sarajevo you would still maintain that it is relevant?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if that line had

12 been cut, 30 kilometres is a lot and it's not that much. The road within

13 the area of responsibility of the SRK would have been cut. All the lines

14 of the communication would have been severed and it would all have been

15 finished in such a conflict which actually began then. Yes, it was 30

16 kilometres from Sarajevo but at that time it was all interconnected

17 because at that point in time there was action along all the lines of the

18 front, including from tanks which were the heaviest of weapons and this

19 can be seen from this document. Last time I mentioned paragraph 53 of the

20 adjudicated facts. I'm not going to repeat --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what's the significance of

24 adjudicated fact paragraph -- well, 53, number 53. You call it paragraph,

25 but I think it's number 53. I have it here.

Page 7524

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, number 53 of the

2 adjudicated facts and that's one of the facts that we did not dispute. In

3 1993, about 75.000 soldiers of the 1st corps of the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina were deployed along the lines of separations around

5 Sarajevo. Approximately a half were in the town itself, while the other

6 half was at the lines of separations outside the town, precisely at the

7 lines that he was talking about and where this fighting was conducted.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: But this adjudicated fact relates to 1993. Your

9 document is relating to, if I'm not mistaken, 1995.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but we showed that then

11 there was 75.000 soldiers but in this action, through the document that we

12 tendered, there were 150.000 soldiers in 1993, there was 75.000 soldiers

13 along the lines of separation, but in this offensive that began on the

14 15th of June, there were over 150.000 because other corps also took part

15 besides the 1st corps and we can see that from the documents that I'm

16 going to show. So not 75.000 as it was in 1993, but in 1995 there were

17 over 150.000 soldiers of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. More thus.

18 This was like this throughout the time of the war. There were lines

19 outside and inside and it's a question who encircled whom.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So outside the city would embrace an area that is

21 some 30 kilometres away from Sarajevo. Would it?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, from the centre of

23 Sarajevo. These would be the lines of separation. Ilijas was completely

24 encircled by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Nisici further up were

25 also completely surrounded. These were the lines of separations, 220

Page 7525

1 kilometres, so this is the indisputed sentence in the adjudicated facts.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: My brother is asking, where is the number 150

4 that you just referred to? It doesn't appear in the document apparently.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not here Your Honours. But

6 we already tendered an exhibit earlier, orders from which it can be seen

7 that the offensive began at all the lines of separation with the

8 participation of other corps too. So that the total number can be seen

9 from the documents that we already tendered through other witnesses. And

10 also, there was something that was seen during the presentation of the

11 Prosecution's case. From this document it can be seen that there was

12 active direct fighting between tanks and other weapons at that location.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

14 The Chamber by majority, Judge Harhoff dissenting, will admit the

15 document.

16 It's time for the break. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, how much more time would you

20 needing for examination-in-chief, because you're actually at the end of

21 the time allotted to you.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Robinson, I

23 have that in mind. I have one additional document, and I will close with

24 it.

25 Your Honours, the previous document was tendered but was not given

Page 7526

1 a number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that document will be D281.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next document is DD00-2840.

4 And we have a translation too.

5 Q. Witness, please look at the heading, read out the date, and tell

6 us what it is, who was ordered to do what; and the second paragraph of the

7 document.

8 A. "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, BH army 1st corps command.

9 IKM, Igman. Military secret, strictly confidential. Strictly

10 confidential number 01/1-222."

11 Should I repeat?

12 Q. Please go on.

13 A. "Igman, 15 June 1995, time 1400 hours. Report: To the command of

14 the 12th, 14th, and 6th Division. All units. To the command of the

15 141st, 145th, and 146th Light Brigades."

16 Q. The second paragraph, please.

17 A. "The forces of the 3rd Corps with our 126th Light Brigade and the

18 134th Mountain Brigade/16th Division, liberated on their axis of attack

19 the whole feature of Ravni Nabozic and Lipa as well as elevation 701,

20 placing the Srednje-Semizovac road and the Semizovac intersection under

21 their full control."

22 Q. Thank you. My question is this: We see that some of the units of

23 the 1st Corps acted in unison with units of another corps, according to

24 the second paragraph, that is?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7527

1 Q. What happened then? What was that road? We mentioned something

2 about that in the previous document as well.

3 A. It is the road that I mentioned on several occasions. It goes

4 through Semizovac, the Nisici plateau, Srednje onwards to Sarajevo and

5 Vogosca municipality.

6 Q. Thank you. And as we can see here, it says they put the entire

7 road under their full control; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. That day, the road was temporarily cut off. Our troops of

9 the Republika Srpska as well as some of our sabotage units managed to

10 regain the positions lost during the day.

11 Q. Thank you. During that offensive of the army of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina which began on the 15th of June, how long did it last,

13 approximately? Not only that action, but the entire offensive.

14 A. I think that intensive attacks lasted until the end of that

15 month. I cannot recall exactly.

16 Q. Tell me this: In the events in November 1994 but also during the

17 combat in June, were there any casualties among the troops and civilians?

18 A. There were a number of victims, especially during the offensive in

19 this area. There were many soldiers killed. I don't know the exact

20 number, but with a degree of certainty I can tell you there were more than

21 25.

22 As for civilian casualties, a bit earlier, before that, there was

23 a mother and a daughter who had been killed by a Howitzer. It was on the

24 13th of June, 1994.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 7528

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, I would like to have the witness

3 clarify which areas this document relate to, because I'm not completely

4 familiar with the places and the names that are mentioned in the

5 documents. The Ravni Naboznic and Lipa. So could you please ask the

6 witness to clarify where these areas were that are mentioned in the

7 document?

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Harhoff, I will

9 do so, since I seem to have forgotten. I wanted to ask that question too.

10 Q. Can you show on the map where the forces of the army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina were? Perhaps you can take the pointer. You'll have

12 to have your headphones on.

13 Can you show where Srednje as well as the Semizovac intersection

14 is.

15 A. Semizovac, this is the Semizovac intersection, Vogosca.

16 Q. So they almost went as far as Vogosca?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And they could have easily reached Vogosca cutting of any

19 possibility of communication?

20 A. That was exactly the arrow that I had drawn on the map. The axis

21 of the main attack. It was a bottle neck by which they tried to interrupt

22 the road between Semizovac, Ilijas and the Nisici plateau.

23 Q. Thank you. There was combat in settlements?

24 A. Yes. Through settlements trying to reach the road to Semizovac

25 which would make it easier for them to take over other areas as well.

Page 7529

1 Q. Had the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina been able to reach Nisici, what

2 would have happened with the Ilijas, Nisici, Hadzici --

3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.


5 MS. EDGERTON: At this point in time I would think my friend is

6 asking the witness to do nothing more than speculate, especially given

7 that the witness has said he was commander or deputy commander of the tank

8 platoon in Nisici far to the north of that and hasn't said anything about

9 where he was at the time in question.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Tapuskovic, inquire from the witness

11 where he was at that time. Let us see whether he has a basis for this

12 information.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, how do you know this? Is this your personal knowledge?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And where were the -- rather, let me put my

17 question in a different way. Were the other areas that are mentioned in

18 the documents, such as, for instance, the Dobranjsko Brdo, were they also

19 located in that area just north of Sarajevo that the witness has shown?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, it's

21 another location of the 7th Corps. I didn't ask him about that. But he

22 might have some indirect knowledge of that. These are the forces of the

23 7th corps and the 1st corps who were active at Jelasje and Dobranjsko

24 Brdo. However in this location, it was the 3rd corps together with the

25 1st corps. The witness doesn't know much about the 7th Corps, which

Page 7530

1 worked jointly with the 1st Corps at Dobranjsko Brdo. However, this is

2 what he knows from his personal knowledge. On another location there was

3 the 7th corps and the 1st corps and there were no 75.000 troops but,

4 rather, twice as much.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic, you are bringing this document to

6 the witness, and I expect that you will also wish to see this document

7 tendered into evidence. So if you want the Chamber to benefit from this

8 document, then at least you should try and elicit from the witness which

9 areas the document is really talking about or discussing.

10 Now, I see two options and I just want the witness to say whether

11 it's one or the other. Either the document deals with a number of

12 locations which all of them are placed just in the vicinity north of

13 Sarajevo; or the document deals with locations which are scattered all

14 around Sarajevo. And that's my interest to find out, what does this

15 document really address.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Harhoff, when I

17 showed him this document, he said that he knew personally about the

18 conflict in this area, where the 3rd corps were together with the 1st

19 corps. I did ask him about whether he knows something -- well, first

20 maybe can he go back to his seat and then I might ask him about any other

21 knowledge that he possibly has.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I mean, keep it simple. Let me ask the witness

23 directly.

24 Are you familiar with the other locations mentioned in the

25 document, Mr. Witness? The Dobranjsko Brdo, the Zmijanice.

Page 7531

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to know.

3 And please, Mr. Witness, you can sit down again.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Because I have one more question to you in

6 relation to this document.

7 And my question is about your comment a while ago that you felt

8 that the -- that your brigade was encircled by the army of the Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina. Is that correct? Do you remember that you told us that it

10 was your impression that the SRK or at least the brigade in which you were

11 stationed felt that it was encircled by the ABiH?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Directly, when you look at the map

13 and based on what I said, I couldn't have said that we were directly

14 encircled but by cutting the road to which that refers to, we were --

15 well, the fighters were isolated as well as the civilian population and

16 everything else. They would have been isolated had this happened. This

17 is what I meant to say. But you can see that the Ilijas Brigade would

18 have been completely cut off and would have been cut off from the free

19 territory in the centre that was controlled by the army of Republika

20 Srpska. And if we look at the map, then we can see that this is really

21 so.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I fully agree and I would interpret what we see in

23 the same way.

24 Now, my question is: What then do you make of the remark by

25 General Karavelic in the first paragraph in which the general seems to

Page 7532

1 suggest that he feels that the ABiH is encircled? I'm referring to the

2 words in the first paragraph in which he says that the joint forces of the

3 BH army achieved the following successes in the operation to break the

4 siege of Sarajevo. That seems to suggest that at least General Karavelic

5 was of opinion that it was the ABiH who was encircled by the SRK and that

6 Sarajevo was under siege. Is that your impression? Do you share General

7 Karavelic's observation?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will just briefly say that I do

9 not agree with that.

10 When we look at the map, we see the breadth and the depth of the

11 territory and everything around and what Mr. Karavelic said is not true.

12 And that practically Ilijas is the only place that is practically in the

13 encirclement and not the forces of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And the city of Sarajevo, were they under siege?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Earlier, when I was speaking and

16 when I mentioned the municipalities that comprised the city of Sarajevo, I

17 mentioned the municipality of Ilidza, Hadzici, and especially the

18 municipality of Vogosca where I was -- well, my house in 1994 in the

19 offensive but last came under the control of the army of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina, so I fled to Vogosca. So if we looked -- I didn't mention

21 the elevations above Vogosca, purely by accident. So it's not just

22 Sarajevo. It's not that just the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

23 inside with Serbs around or the army of Republika Srpska. It wasn't like

24 that, actually.

25 If we take an elevation, for example if we go back to Zuc, that is

Page 7533

1 a dominant elevation at -- in a specific territory where the lines of

2 separation are about 100, 200 to 500 metres apart but the dominant

3 elevation, I don't know its height, was held by the army of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina. And I state that with full responsibility, that it was

5 really like that. My entire testimony is mostly focused on where I was,

6 and that is the municipality of Vogosca, the Nisici plateau. But then we

7 have Vogosca-Semizovac intersection, Srediste [phoen] and the Nisici

8 plateau, that was the main communication for the population and the army

9 of Republika Srpska.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have

12 questions, but I would like to have this document, DD00-2840, tendered as

13 a Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, the translation that's in e-court in

16 any case is incomplete and I wonder if it could be marked for

17 identification until such time as it is completed.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What indicates its incompleteness?

19 MS. EDGERTON: There appear to be two paragraphs missing from the

20 English version.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's on the next page.

22 MS. EDGERTON: We don't have the next page in e-court, do we? I

23 still don't see those two paragraphs and General Karavelic's signature.

24 It may just be an e-court issue, then if Your Honours have a translation

25 and a hard copy. Now we have it. Thank you.

Page 7534

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Okay. We admit it. Judge Mindua has a

2 question.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, just a question

4 you know for clarification. I didn't want to interrupt you when you were

5 dealing with the subject, but if you go to the transcript, page 17, line

6 18, 19, all the way to line 22, it seems that before General Milosevic

7 took command, if I understood you right, and correct me if I'm wrong, the

8 territory controlled by the army of Republika Srpska was increasing, and

9 when General Milosevic took command he withdrew heavy weapons and, at the

10 same time, he also stopped the offensives conducted by the ABiH. You are

11 recognising him as a very good military man. But I don't really

12 understand the logic behind this. He has got no weapons and he can still

13 stop offensives. Whereas before him, there were heavy weapons and the

14 territory was increasing.

15 So could you tell us exactly how this could be possible?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that you

17 misunderstood me.

18 When General Dragomir Milosevic took the post, strong offensives

19 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were stopped, and up until he

20 arrived the army of Republika Srpska was losing territories, before the

21 arrival of General Milosevic.

22 When General Milosevic came, he stopped those offensives, formed

23 lines, and there was no further loss of territory, nor was any territory

24 captured. The lost territories were not recaptured. We didn't understand

25 each other. Perhaps you didn't follow me completely. There were no

Page 7535

1 conquests, but the road was retaken. That was something that had to be

2 done in order for the population and the soldiers to be able to continue

3 to live. But the original positions, what was retaken were the original

4 positions of the army of Republika Srpska, and I hope that this is now

5 clearer.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, fine. Thank you.

7 So the fact that ABiH offensives stopped results from the military

8 strategy and the military value of General Milosevic and not the use of

9 special weapons, right? Because, according to you, heavy weapons had been

10 withdrawn, so how did he manage to stop the offensive? Did you tell us

11 how come the offensives suddenly started and the lines were now frozen?

12 Were there special weapons or was it a very clever strategy? How did he

13 manage to stabilize the positions? I mean you were a soldier and you can

14 probably tell us what happened or maybe you understood what happened.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lines were stabilized, well,

16 first if you're losing a part of the territory, the line is shortened and

17 simply then we would have more soldiers available, taking into account

18 those wounded and killed and so on and so forth. That is one fact.

19 The other fact is that new weapons came -- well, not new weapons

20 but existing weapons such as Howitzers, mortars, tanks that I talked

21 about, cannon, and that was deployed in the section where the attacks were

22 expected, and I believe that there is nothing illogical there. I don't

23 know anything about any particular or special types of weapons. I don't

24 know what you're referring to there.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you very much.

Page 7536

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My assistant tells me that the

2 previous document that we tendered has not yet been given a number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document, document ID number

4 DD00-2840 will be admitted as D282.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, now, in relation to the question by His Honour Judge

7 Mindua, you said that at the time when the heavy weapons were pulled out

8 of the 20-kilometre exclusion zone the weapons, the tanks, the rest of the

9 weaponry was transformed to the Nisici plateau outside of this area, far

10 from this area; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That weapon -- those weapons made it possible to set this up?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were just giving evidence, Mr. Tapuskovic,

17 when you said to the witness "Those weapons made it possible to set this

18 up." You didn't allow the witness to proffer that evidence. But never

19 mind.

20 Ms. Edgerton.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic. You look as though you're feeling

24 better.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7537

1 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions based on what you've said in

2 testimony today, but very briefly, so you should be on your way home

3 fairly soon, I would think, because you have had a long stay in The

4 Hague.

5 A. Thank you.

6 Q. Judge Harhoff asked you a very specific question with respect to

7 conditions within the city of Sarajevo and you answered him in detail.

8 Just -- I'd just like to follow up on that and ask you: At any time during

9 the war -- now let me rephrase that.

10 You actually have no idea from your personal experience of what

11 civilians inside the Bosnian-held territory of Metropolitan Sarajevo, the

12 city centre lived through throughout the war, do you?

13 A. I really don't know. Perhaps we didn't understand each other.

14 What part of Sarajevo are you thinking of? I sincerely and honestly told

15 you about those parts that I really know about. I told you about

16 civilians in Vogosca, the population in the municipality of Vogosca.

17 That's where my father lived as well as my mother. This is it what I'm

18 talking about.

19 As for the other municipalities that are part of Sarajevo, I think

20 that they lived in a similar or identical way. Doesn't matter if they

21 were in a different municipality or not. I think life there was similar

22 as -- as the one in Vogosca, not similar, but identical.

23 Q. So if I said to you that from 1992 to 1995, civilians who lived

24 inside Bosnian-held territory in the metropolitan area of Sarajevo were

25 shot at frequently, would you agree with me?

Page 7538

1 A. These are your facts. I really don't know about things like

2 that. I really cannot say anything about it other than that I never heard

3 that any soldier or anyone shot at civilians. I really never heard of

4 that.

5 Q. That wasn't quite my question actually. So let me go back to

6 that. Would you agree with me that civilians within the metropolitan area

7 of Bosnian-held Sarajevo were shot at over the course of the war?

8 A. There was shooting all over during the war. It was war. And you

9 yourself said in the course of war, over the course of the war. And you

10 probably have a different view of it than a soldier would. I mean, of

11 course it was normal that there was one side and the other side of the

12 conflict. We really cannot accept the fact that Serbs only -- it was only

13 the Serbs who fired at Muslims or that Muslims only fired at Serbs. As I

14 like to say, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fired at Serbs and the army of

15 Republika Srpska fired at Muslims. I mean, it was war. There was

16 shooting. As to what extent and who happened to be aware, this is a very

17 delicate and difficult question.

18 Q. And actually, with respect, Mr. Djukic, wasn't so difficult and I

19 didn't ask anything about who fired at who. I simply asked whether you

20 would agree that civilians in Bosnian-held territory, in Metropolitan

21 Sarajevo were shot at frequently throughout the war. Would you agree with

22 that?

23 A. No, no. I would not agree with that.

24 Q. Would you agree that civilians in Bosnian-held Metropolitan

25 Sarajevo were frequently killed and injured by shelling and sniping, from

Page 7539

1 1992 to 1995? And remember, Mr. Djukic, I'm not asking who shot who.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, are you asking him on the basis of

3 personal knowledge or of information that he might have acquired?

4 MS. EDGERTON: I can make it even more specific and ask on both

5 grounds, Your Honour. That might clarify things for him.

6 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you have any personal knowledge, and I mean -- by

7 personal knowledge, I mean did you ever see with your own eyes or did you

8 ever hear with your own ears about any civilians in Sarajevo, the

9 metropolitan Bosnian-held territory of Sarajevo getting killed or injured

10 by shelling or sniping from 1992 to 1995. So it is with your own eyes and

11 your own ears.

12 A. I truly never saw or noticed anyone doing that, in view of the

13 fact that my area of responsibility was further away. You're talking

14 about the actual -- just one part of that town, and I didn't hear anything

15 in particular about that, about sniper activities. I didn't hear really

16 anything. But as for possible shelling, that some people were wounded by

17 shells, that, I think, if there was shelling, and they happened to be

18 somewhere, and then if they were -- I don't know. It's very hard, the way

19 you put it. So it's not clear to me how because these were lines that

20 were in close proximity. I don't know who could have fired what at whom.

21 It's very, very strange.

22 Q. So you never saw or never heard anything but you gave a lot of

23 evidence today about everything from hilltops to the placement of weapons

24 and the location of confrontation lines which you yourself said was based

25 on common knowledge, effectively.

Page 7540

1 So perhaps I can ask you this: Did you ever hear in the media or

2 from any other person or in any documents you might have received through

3 your military command or from any off your colleagues or from any of your

4 family who lived in areas around Sarajevo, that people who lived in

5 Bosnian-held Sarajevo were regularly shelled and sniped at?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No. Did you ever see reports of it in the media, even in Crna?

8 A. In the field where I was, we were frequently without electricity,

9 but I watched reports from the media that things like that happened. But

10 even that, to a limited extent. As for me seeing or noticing personally,

11 I really did not.

12 Q. So you just said you watched reports from the media that things

13 like that happened in answer to my question. So that sounds like you saw

14 media reports to the effect that people who lived in

15 metropolitan-encircled Sarajevo were shot and shelled. Is that true?

16 A. Well, for that you can take two answers. You can say that there

17 was something like that on the part of the army of Republika Srpska, and

18 to tell you truthfully if there were provocations from the army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the lines and places where the Serb population lived

20 or that they were provocations via fire-arms, well, that's -- then I would

21 say that as a soldier, there was a return fire once fire was received.

22 Q. But, Mr. Djukic, I didn't ask you about provocations at all.

23 Every single time I have asked you a question, I've asked you about

24 civilians were in encircled Metropolitan Sarajevo. Did you hear of it, or

25 see it, or learn of it, either through your own personal knowledge --

Page 7541

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic is on his feet.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand a

3 question being put once or twice, but to put the same question several

4 times over, I don't think that that is proper. I'm sitting here and

5 listening. I don't think that I ever repeated a question. I think at

6 least that I did not repeat the one and the same question once. Now this

7 is the third or fourth time that the same question is being put. He said

8 that he didn't see anything with his own eyes and then -- then he moved to

9 the media and then he gave two answers for that. And I think that it

10 would be improper to continue in this vain.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, I agree. The witness has already

12 given an answer to the question.

13 Please move on.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Djukic, perhaps I can ask you one further question. The

16 offensive of the summer of 1995 that you also spent a lot of time talking

17 about in some measure of detail was actually effectively crushed by VRS

18 and SRK forces, wasn't it?

19 A. If I understood you correctly, it was crushed by the army of

20 Republika Srpska or by the army of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I don't

21 know what you mean when you say pushed back or reduced. I didn't say

22 that. I think the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, headed by General Milosevic,

23 thwarted attacks, stopped them, and preserved the existing lines of the

24 army of Republika Srpska, and I really tried to speak slowly and to be

25 clear first to me and then --

Page 7542

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, Counsel, as I understand is going

2 further than that. She's saying that the offensive in the summer of 1995

3 that you testified about was crushed, crushed - it's a very strong word -

4 I don't know how it is reflected in your language, but that offensive was

5 crushed by the VRS and the SRK forces. Do you agree with that. It's not

6 just a matter of General Milosevic thwarting attacks and stopping them but

7 that the offensive was crushed by the VRS and the SRK forces.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I fail to understand. I've

9 given an answer. For me, to crush something would mean that the side who

10 managed to crush the enemy would advance further and deeper in the

11 territory of the opposing side, which is not what happened.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.


14 Q. And it was defeated without panic, with no problem. Isn't that

15 the case?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know

18 whether this was interpreted correctly, but it was said in B/C/S that

19 there were defeated without any panic. It not clear in the least that

20 they were defeated without panic. If interpreted in B/C/S properly, then,

21 well, it makes it difficult to understand in my language.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you understand the question, witness? Counsel

23 is putting to you that --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the offensive was defeated and that there was

Page 7543

1 not any panic accompanying that defeat.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I respond?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm putting the question to you, yes.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you were able to

5 observe, I smiled the first time I heard the question. We mentioned the

6 fact that 150.000 soldiers attacked the area of responsibility of the

7 SRK. We also mentioned the fact that the lines were almost broken around

8 Ilijas municipality. And now we get this question which reminds me of a

9 soccer game. I think I'm clear.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Just one point, Your Honour. The 150.000 number,

11 and I've checked previously the transcript, from this witness's testimony

12 never before came from the witness's mouth. It came from Mr. Tapuskovic's

13 mouth.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic told us that testimony given

15 earlier was to that effect.

16 Did you say that, Mr. Tapuskovic? Because counsel is saying that

17 this resulted from -- simply from what you said, not from testimony.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That is true. I said that it was

19 based on a plethora of documents and evidence we've heard. I mentioned a

20 figure when communicating with the Bench, when discussing the figure of 53

21 or rather the adjudicated fact number 53. Then I said that it stems from

22 other documents as it does from this latest document that was tendered

23 showing that the 3rd and the 1st Corps cooperated along the line where

24 this person was. The witness did not say that.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I know the witness did not say that, but did

Page 7544

1 any other witness prior to this witness say that, or was it simply a

2 conclusion that you are drawing?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Robinson, I can

4 show you the documents introduced through other witnesses although I don't

5 have it here immediately.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I would require you to do that; otherwise,

7 this -- this would be -- I would consider this a very serious matter, if

8 you suggested that evidence had been given and it turned out not to be the

9 case but simply an assertion that you are making. So would you later

10 today point to that evidence for me. And if you can, then Ms. Edgerton

11 will owe you an apology.

12 Ms. Edgerton, yes.

13 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is very

15 difficult for me to do that today, but I will do it as soon as I can. It

16 is a number of documents that I have to assemble and present to you, but I

17 will do it as quickly as possible.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, because I -- I take it to be a person of

19 integrity, Mr. Tapuskovic and that you would not mislead the Court.

20 MS. EDGERTON: And just so there's no misleading on the part of

21 what I said, I was making that point with respect to the testimony before

22 Your Honours today. Today. That had not -- those figures had not come

23 from this witness's mouth. There had been no testimony that --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well in that case, I agree with that. But

25 Mr. Tapuskovic never sought to say that this witness had given testimony

Page 7545

1 to the 150.000 number. I think what I understood him to be saying is that

2 testimony given previously confirms that figure, not testimony from this

3 witness.

4 MS. EDGERTON: No. It was merely something that was adopted by

5 the witness now and that's the point I was making, Your Honours.

6 Q. Mr. Djukic, to finish up, and going back to your answers with

7 regard to the June offensive, would it surprise you to learn that your

8 general, General Milosevic, actually wrote to General Mladic and in that

9 correspondence to General Mladic actually said this offensive that you've

10 testified about in great detail today was stopped and crushed without any

11 panic in 1995?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: In those words, Ms. Edgerton?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours. And for the record, I can refer

14 everyone to P738 in the English translation page 2, second paragraph --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us hear the answer --

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- of the witness first. Let us hear the

18 witness's answer first.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I understood it very

20 well. Could you please repeat it.


22 Q. You've talked about the seriousness of this offensive by the

23 Bosnian forces, the size of the attack an its consequences on your side,

24 in terms of both civilian and military effects. But what I'm putting to

25 you now is actually your general reported to Ratko Mladic saying this

Page 7546

1 two-month large-scale enemy offensive was stopped and crushed without any

2 panic in 1995. Does that surprise you?

3 A. I am not particularly surprised. Perhaps I can explain. If an

4 offensive is stopped or thwarted, if further advancement was prevented by

5 the army of Republika Srpska in the Serb territory, and if vital roads are

6 preserved, then it doesn't surprise me. I was a front-line soldier. As

7 to what lingo they used in their office, that's a different thing. I hope

8 you understand my answer.

9 Q. So you would agree, then, with your general's report to the

10 commander-in-chief, to the effect that the Bosnian offensive was stopped

11 and crushed without panic?

12 A. Without panic ... yes. Unlike the previous offensives, when

13 people left their homes and when there was destruction of property and

14 when the entire population, the able-bodied ones and the other ones were

15 trying to save their lives, judging the amount of panic among the soldiers

16 and citizens, well, then, I guess that's what they had in mind, and I

17 think it is justified when you see civilian population advancing or

18 fleeing before the opposing parties' army.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we did not understand the

20 end of the witness's answer. Perhaps he could repeat.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, would you just repeat the end of your

22 answer, because the interpreter didn't quite understand it. Just the end

23 of your answer, I think perhaps beginning "and I think it is justified,"

24 et cetera.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that there no panic

Page 7547

1 or that was alleviated because there was no population there that would

2 flee the advancing army. That's what I had in mind. There were no

3 movements of population. Instead, lines were formed, manned exclusively

4 by soldiers in trenches and there in the territory. Therefore, we were

5 prepared to face the offensive and we managed to thwart it.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for just a brief moment, Your

7 Honour.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.


12 Q. Just one last question perhaps to finish things off.

13 So, Mr. Djukic, the way I understand your testimony now, having

14 clarified matters, when you've said previously that you would not agree

15 that Sarajevo was under siege, the basis of your knowledge is actually

16 nothing, isn't it? Because you have no personal knowledge of civilians in

17 the city centre being shelled or sniped and you heard nothing from the

18 media. Your disagreement or your assertion that Sarajevo was not under

19 siege is your opinion purely. It's your opinion, isn't it?

20 A. I don't know what time it is that you're asking me the same

21 question, and I thought we were done with it. I think I gave a

22 sufficiently clear answer. I lived with my family in a part of Sarajevo.

23 We were refugees.

24 MS. EDGERTON: I think those are all the questions that I have,

25 Your Honours.

Page 7548

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

2 Any re-examination, Mr. Tapuskovic?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one question only.

4 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djukic, you said when answering one of

6 Prosecutor's questions that you did not see anything yourself concerning

7 the plight of civilians in the part of Sarajevo that was under control of

8 the ABiH. I'm asking you this: You said where you were at the time.

9 Were you able to see anything concerning the plight of civilians in

10 Sarajevo that was in the part of Sarajevo that was controlled by the army

11 of Republika Srpska? Were you able to observe any of that in Grbavica,

12 Nedzarici?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

15 MS. EDGERTON: That doesn't arise from cross-examination, I

16 submit.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, we don't agree with you. We think

19 it does arise.

20 Answer the question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I would kindly ask for

22 the question to be repeated.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said you were unable to see and that you don't know anything

25 about the things taking place in the part of the city that was under the

Page 7549

1 control of the ABiH. What I'm asking you is this: One part of the city

2 was under the control of the army of Republika Srpska. Do you have any

3 knowledge of that? Did you see anything?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djukic, that concludes your evidence. We

7 thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you as well.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll turn over my chair

11 to Mr. Sachdeva and take my leave, with your permission.


13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, next witness.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The next

16 witness is T-34, Milan Mandic.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

24 You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7550

1 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you tell us your first and last

3 name, or, rather, tell it to the Judges?

4 A. My name is Milan Mandic.

5 Q. Just a moment, please. Even with the shortest of questions,

6 please observe the screen in front of you. Only after the transcript has

7 stopped, then answer.

8 And the following questions can be answered by saying yes or no.

9 You were born on the 11th of September, 1954?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In Kalinovik in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You used to live in Sarajevo in Nedzarici in your family home from

14 1960?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You completed your elementary and secondary education for a road

17 transport technician in Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Your civic duty, that is the term with the JNA, was served in

20 1974, and you were a private?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When the conflict broke out, you were employed with the PTT

23 engineering in Nedzarici?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell the Judges something about early 1992. Who did you

Page 7551

1 work for then?

2 A. In March 1992, I was employed by UNPROFOR or the forces of the

3 European union.

4 Q. When did you begin working for UNPROFOR and what did you do

5 exactly as early as 1992?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just a small clarification, because

8 UNPROFOR and the forces of the European Union are different organisations,

9 in my submission, so perhaps the witness can clarify which organisation he

10 worked for.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Which one did you work for, the UNPROFOR or

12 the European Union?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked for UNPROFOR. They wore

14 blue helmets with the UN logo.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. What did you do for them?

17 A. I worked as -- as a car electrician.

18 Q. What were your tasks?

19 A. Fixing the vehicles of UNPROFOR.

20 Q. How long did you stay at that -- in that position?

21 A. I worked with them until the 6th of May, 1992.

22 Q. Please explain. When did you begin and when did you stop working

23 for them, and why?

24 A. Upon UNPROFOR's arrival to my company, I worked there as of day

25 one until the 6th of May, when I was wounded returning home from work.

Page 7552

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, could you please

2 ask the witness with which passport he was working within UNPROFOR? What

3 was his nationality and was he wearing a uniform? I did not quite

4 understand?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour Judge

6 Mindua.

7 Q. You need to explain this to the Judges, Witness. Explain where

8 you were employed and how did it come about that you began to work for

9 UNPROFOR? What was your work organisation and how did you end up working

10 for UNPROFOR?

11 A. I worked in the PTT engineering from 1980 as an auto electrician.

12 When the UNPROFOR came, they elected PTT engineering as the institution to

13 be most suitable for their headquarters because we had satellite

14 communications, telephone communications, and I signed a contract with

15 UNPROFOR. I didn't need a passport, because I was born in Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. And since you put the question, I am of Serb ethnicity.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] No. I understood. I asked the

18 question, because he said you worked for UNPROFOR and he also said that he

19 had been wounded, so we could have thought that he was a military for

20 UNPROFOR. Maybe he was a military electrician or something; hence, my

21 question.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you please then explain to the Judges how it came about that

24 you were wounded? How did that happen? I don't want to suggest anything,

25 but can you please explain how this happened?

Page 7553

1 A. When I was returning from work, from PTT engineering, meaning I

2 spent that day on my work duties at UNPROFOR, on my return from work, I

3 was wounded in the Lukavica street, perhaps 200 metres from my house, from

4 the direction of the Srakino Selo. I was walking like a civilian.

5 Q. And what happened then and where were you then for an amount of

6 time after that?

7 A. I was taken to the hospital, actually first to the barracks. They

8 gave me first aid and then they transferred me to the hospital where I was

9 until the 27th of May, 1992, receiving medical treatment.

10 Q. What did you find out while you were at the hospital?

11 A. I found out that my 65-year-old mother had been taken to a camp,

12 that my father disappeared, that my wife and two children, aged 7 and 5,

13 fled from there and that the house was set on fire, both my house and my

14 father's house.

15 Q. And where was your house till then?

16 A. It was in the Lukavicka 107 street at the base of Mojmilo hill.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, we have to take the break now.

18 Before we break, I should make a clarification about the schedule

19 for the rest of the week. Tomorrow's hearing will commence at 9.00 a.m.;

20 Thursday's hearing will commence at 2.15; and Friday from 8.00 until

21 12.45.

22 We'll break for 20 minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

Page 7554

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just with respect to the last -- the

2 last issue that my learned friend has broached with the witness, I am

3 minded to object on the relevance of the evidence, but also it would be --

4 I suggest that counsel should establish the basis for the witness's

5 knowledge, or, in other words how did he find out that these things took

6 place. As it stands now, the witness was in hospital and the evidence is

7 that he found out certain things. I realise I could ask him in

8 cross-examination, but perhaps it's better to be done now, in my

9 submission.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: When you look at the matters that he found out, I

11 mean, why would you be questioning the basis of that knowledge? Are you

12 talking about the matters relating to his family?

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, and I'm just asking just basically to

14 establish how he found out while in hospital.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, I don't see any need for that,

16 quite frankly.

17 Yes, proceed.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 I also think that he needs to tell you how he found out.

20 Q. Sir, you were at the hospital. How did you find out first about

21 your mother and then about your father? Can you please tell us how you

22 learned about that?

23 A. At that time the PTT lines were still functioning and I found out

24 from my family. I had a lot of relatives in Nedzarici. I found out that

25 this happened to my parents.

Page 7555

1 Q. Did you talk to anyone on the phone?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Well, explain that.

4 A. On the 27th of May, when I left the hospital, I called my uncle,

5 the late Aleksa Tomanovic now, and I asked him if my parents were alive,

6 if he knew anything about them, and he replied that people saw from the

7 Skrkare house that my mother was taken away in the direction of Dobrinja

8 V. They were not sure about my father, and then in a second conversation

9 with him, I found out that my father was allowed to go to Lukavicka Cesta

10 to cross the 10th transversal and to get to Lukavica but that he didn't

11 get there and that he was most probably killed when he was about to enter

12 the Lukavicka Cesta street or road.

13 Q. Did you ever hear anything about your father?

14 A. No, not to this very day. I never found the remains of my

15 father's body.

16 Q. And can you please tell us if you ever returned to Nedzarici ever

17 again after the 27th of May?

18 A. Once you learned that my wife had left our house, that my parents

19 had the fate that they did and that the house was set on fire, there was

20 no need for me to go back to Nedzarici. And the first time that I went

21 back to Nedzarici was in the year 2000.

22 Q. And what did you do, if you didn't return to Nedzarici on the 27th

23 of May? Let's leave 2000 aside now. What happened then?

24 A. When I left the hospital, I joined the army of Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Before we continue, can you just please tell me if you ever worked

Page 7556

1 in a hospital?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever have the rank of NCO?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Have you ever heard of the Serbian Guard, and if you did, can you

6 please tell us what it is?

7 A. I've heard of the elite Serbian Guard.

8 Q. Did you ever belong to the ranks of that guard?

9 A. Unfortunately, no.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me whether any of your close

11 relatives lived in Sarajevo throughout the conflict in an area that was

12 under the control of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes. I had a lot of family that remained in Sarajevo. They were

14 loyal to the then authorities, including my brother.

15 Q. Can you just briefly point out on the map of the city of Sarajevo

16 several things.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we do this quickly. This is

18 document 2872.

19 Q. While we're waiting for the map to be shown, you were in the

20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. In which brigade?

21 A. I joined the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, the logistics battalion.

22 Q. Who was the brigade commander?

23 A. The brigade commander was Veljko Stojanovic.

24 Q. Who was the battalion commander?

25 A. That was Mirosav Pandic, captain.

Page 7557

1 Q. And what did you do in the rear or in the logistics section of the

2 battalion?

3 A. I repaired motor vehicles, the ones with wheels.

4 Q. At the time, the time that we're talking about, which part of town

5 were you in now, as a member of the army of Republika Srpska?

6 A. That was Lukavica in the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks.

7 Q. Can we please zoom in on the map, in order to point out a few

8 things.

9 Can you please point out where the barracks was, where you worked?

10 A. I'm sorry, but I really have difficulty finding my way around a

11 map. I never worked with a map, and Lukavica was --

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll up a little

13 bit. Can we scroll the map up a little bit, please.

14 You can only see here -- you cannot see -- no, no. The other

15 way. I would like to look at the southern part of the map. Scroll a bit

16 more. A little bit more, please.

17 Q. And now can you see?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness very

19 well.

20 A. It's a little bit harder to find, but Lukavica is right underneath

21 Mojmilo. I'm trying to find Mojmilo now.

22 I think that is Dobrinja.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, well, let's not waste time.

25 This barracks where you worked, how far was it from the line of

Page 7558

1 separation?

2 A. 6 to 800 metres, as the crow flies.

3 Q. And the place where the barracks was, how far was that from

4 Mojmilo?

5 A. Well, that's what I meant.

6 Q. And what was the position of the place where the barracks was, in

7 terms of the configuration of the terrain?

8 A. Since I grew up on Mojmilo hill, that was the most dominant

9 elevation, and the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks was at the base of

10 Mojmilo hill, in a plateau.

11 Q. And can you please tell us, can you tell the Judges, where your

12 brother's house or apartment was, in Sarajevo? Can you at least indicate

13 that on the map, or can you say where that was?

14 A. Well, I can tell you where it was. The apartment of my brother

15 was in Dolac-Malta, in the very centre of town.

16 Q. And throughout the war, that's where he lived?

17 A. He remained loyal to the then authorities until he was arrested

18 and taken to the camp.

19 Q. And can you please tell me, this place where you were with your

20 family, was your family in Lukavica also?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in the events that followed, were there any combat actions in

23 which you yourself participated?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And these combat actions, did it mean anything to you that your

Page 7559

1 own brother was living in the centre of Sarajevo?

2 A. Well, of course it meant something. It was important when we were

3 provoked, at that point in time, unfortunately, I had to fire at my own

4 brother.

5 Q. During 1992 and 1993, did anything else happen to you personally

6 in the course of combat?

7 A. Yes. On the 2nd of January, 1993, I was wounded at the technical

8 workshop in the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks.

9 Q. What kind of a wound did you receive?

10 A. It was extremely dangerous. It was a fracture of the skull and I

11 had a very, very serious concussion and it was a life-threatening injury.

12 Q. How long were you on sick-leave?

13 A. I was on sick-leave until June 1993, late June 1993.

14 Q. Can you please tell me, you were wounded once, and then you were

15 wounded the second time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever inflict a wound on yourself?

18 A. That's something that never occurred to me.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Judges, if you can, when you

20 joined the SRK, the barracks and the municipality of Lukavica, were there

21 any heavy weapons there?

22 A. There were some at that time, yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us what you noticed and what can you confirm as

24 having seen of the heavy weapons.

25 A. In 1992 and 1993, I noted several tanks. There were two Pragas,

Page 7560

1 and there were a few mortars a little bit farther away.

2 Q. And you returned to your positions in mid-1993. Could you say if

3 there was anything characteristic about 1994. Were you still at Lukavica,

4 and are you able to say anything about what the situation was in 1994?

5 A. In late 1993 and the very beginning of 1994 were marked by

6 considerable combat actions and then onwards from May 1994, the --

7 lessened, I think some kind of a truce was signed. But I think that

8 during the truces the highest casualties were among the civilian

9 population.

10 Q. And can you tell me if you found out anything about what happened

11 with the heavy weaponry in 1994?

12 A. After the truce was signed, our heavy weapons were pulled back

13 from the town and they were placed under the monitoring of I will say the

14 United Nations, again it was under 24-hour surveillance.

15 Q. And do you know when Dragomir Milosevic took up the post of the

16 SRK commander?

17 A. The general came in August 1994.

18 Q. And the first months when he arrived, what were they like, the

19 months from August on and then until the end of 1994?

20 A. We were issued an order then. It wasn't a prohibition but an

21 order that we were not permitted to fire from infantry or artillery

22 weapons until mid-October, from what I can remember.

23 Q. And during the quiet period, was there any event that you

24 remember?

25 A. Yes. I remember a very striking image, an incident that happened

Page 7561

1 a few steps away from me when two sisters, 14 and 16 years of age, went to

2 the canteen to buy something because there was nowhere else where they

3 could buy anything and they were hit or struck by a shell. One was killed

4 and one was -- both of her legs were severed.

5 Q. What happened in October 1994, or, rather let me ask you this

6 first. Since you were in Lukavica, from that place could you observe

7 anything at the foot of Hrasno?

8 A. We couldn't see Hrasno, since it is beyond Mojmilo hill.

9 Q. I apologise, my mistake. Hrasnica.

10 A. Throughout that period, we followed civilians who moved together

11 with soldiers entering the tunnel below the Butmir -- or underneath the

12 Butmir airport.

13 Q. Did you receive any orders regarding that, since there was

14 movement of troops there?

15 A. Since our command was properly aware of the tactics of the army of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina by which they mixed with civilians, our command

17 expressly forebade opening any fire. They said we are not allowed to use

18 even a slingshot, let alone a rifle.

19 Q. Do you know what happened in October, November and December in

20 that area of Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes. During those months, we were under attack along all of the

22 lines of separation. It was a fierce attack, therefore I -- our command

23 decided to take people who had work obligation to the front lines, since

24 they were far more numerous than we were.

25 Q. What did things look like in Lukavica at that time, Lukavica and

Page 7562

1 the environs, having in mind that there was fighting in other places as

2 well?

3 A. It was fierce. In Dobrinja IV, Dobrinja I, as far as I know,

4 shells landed in settlements where civilians were in Lukavica, Toplik,

5 Bijelo Polje and the rest.

6 Q. After all those events in 1994, between October and December did

7 something come about, something which is different?

8 A. Things got quieter after that.

9 Q. Until when?

10 A. Until May 1995.

11 Q. What began taking place then?

12 A. Then there was fighting again, infantry attacks, artillery

13 attacks. They targeted military facilities as well as residential areas

14 inhabited by civilians. There were many, many civilian casualties as well

15 as among the soldiers.

16 Q. Which period is particularly important? When did things escalate

17 the most?

18 A. This was all by way of preparation of theirs, I think. The

19 assessment of our command was quite correct in that regard. They foresaw

20 that things would get worse in -- in October.

21 Q. You are now in October but you were talking about May.

22 A. Yes, yes. The worst situation was the last month and a half.

23 There were fierce attacks on Trnovo, Vojnicko and other places.

24 Q. You said something about a fierce attack and that they tried to

25 stretch out your forces. Can you explain what that means?

Page 7563

1 A. They attacked along the entire line of separation. Our scouts

2 noticed the grouping of their soldiers above Trnovo. I don't know about

3 the Ilidza theatre because I wasn't there then.

4 Q. In Lukavica?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm just trying to establish the

7 basis of the witness's knowledge. It certainly does not come across or

8 did not come across in the 65 ter summary that Trnovo would be an area of

9 discussion. Again, I could -- I could lead this in cross-examination, but

10 the confrontation lines are --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's just ask him, then.

12 Witness, what is the basis of your knowledge? How did you acquire

13 that information?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, which piece of

15 information exactly are we talking about?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The last answer that you gave, that they attacked

17 along the entire line of separation.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The attack that occurred was

19 along the entire separation line. However --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, how did you know that? The question is,

21 how did you know that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The separation lines were very

23 close. In certain locations, only a road divided us. We would hear

24 firing, that is, soldiers between each other talked and we would get

25 information from our superiors, like platoon leaders or company commanders

Page 7564

1 or battalion commanders and the rest. They would inform us.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

3 Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. At the time of those events, were you able to observe anything or

6 did you participate in any combat operations at Mojmilo?

7 A. Yes. I was attached to the Oslanska to the Cavarkapa [phoen]

8 house were there was a particularly fierce attack in which we were

9 outnumbered by far. And they had much better equipment too. However, we

10 managed to defend ourselves.

11 Q. To be specific, having in mind the question posed by my learned

12 friend Mr. Sachdeva, I wanted to ask -- show you document D107.

13 Witness, please read out the heading. We won't read the whole

14 thing, but please read the heading and what follows immediately after,

15 including the first paragraph, slowly.

16 A. Could I have a hard copy? Because after I was wounded for the

17 second time, my sight worsened. I cannot see it too well.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let him have a hard copy.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Please read slowly. Read it out loud.

21 A. "Command of the 12th division. Strictly confidential number

22 02/2-7-10, Sarajevo, 26 June, 1995. Proposal of chosen targets to be

23 destroyed and to tie up the aggressor forces by unit."

24 Two -- should I continue?

25 Q. The first paragraph.

Page 7565

1 A. "Pursuant to the order of the 1st corps, Chief of Staff, strictly

2 confidential number 01/3-151, of 25 June, 1995, to carry out active combat

3 operations in the zone of responsibility of all brigades, in the zone of

4 responsibility of the 12th DKOV," I don't know what the abbreviation

5 stands for, "in order to tie up the aggressor forces around the city and

6 disperse them, offering relief to our forces outside the city in the zone

7 of responsibility of the 14th and 16th DKOV."

8 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you the following. We see a term here,

9 which is tying up or dispersing or stretching out and you mentioned the

10 very word before. Does that correspond to what you were able to see on

11 the ground? Do you see any similarity between the document and the

12 situation on the ground?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please go to page 3 now.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can have it on the

16 screen as well. At the bottom, 3 BB.

17 A. "I approve the use of 3 RPG mines, 1 B/K for PA ASP, 1 B/K for AP,

18 target 1 MG in Ponjarca street, first floor."

19 Q. Continue.

20 A. "The group operator, RPG, also commander, assistant sniper, two

21 automaticians."

22 Q. Is that what was happening on the ground?

23 A. Yes, since I know where Danila Ponjarca street is. There was a

24 fierce clash there for some five to six hours. We were trying to repel

25 their attacks. We managed to do that in the end.

Page 7566

1 Q. Were there any casualties on your side?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us something more about the combat operations. We

4 saw the date of the document. It was in June. Can you tell me what the

5 things were like during that one month? How long did the offensive or

6 those combat operations last?

7 A. Well, not only for one month. Maybe they were fierce for only a

8 month, but there were clashes on a daily basis even after that.

9 Q. Were there any casualties?

10 A. Yes, on the front line itself. I can tell Their Honours that my

11 neighbour was killed by a shell which fell on a residential area. It

12 probably overshot and he was killed in front of his own house. He was a

13 civilian.

14 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether you know anything about an

15 operation called Lukavac 93?

16 A. I have heard of that operation. It was aimed at Trnovo. I know

17 about it. We were attached to Trnovo, or, rather to their defence.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last part

19 of the sentence.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just repeat the last part of your

21 sentence, Witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We, from the rear battalion, were

23 attached for the purpose of that operation, the Lukavac operation, to

24 them. We had very few fighters, and it was very difficult to defend

25 Trnovo at that moment.

Page 7567

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. It was an offensive operation on the part of the VRS; is that so?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Lukavac 93?

5 A. Oh, Lukavac 93, yes.

6 Q. What about after the Lukavac 93 operation. Were there any other

7 offensive operations by the VRS that you know of?

8 A. No, there was no need to. I haven't heard of any other Lukavac

9 operation.

10 Q. What is your function in the local community? Perhaps you can

11 answer that question, but I should ask for the leave of the Bench, since I

12 believe it is of some importance for the society in Republika Srpska.

13 A. Currently I head an NGO which deals with the families of the

14 missing persons of the Sarajevo-Romanija region. I am the organisation's

15 president.

16 Q. What sort of numbers do you have and I suppose you turn those over

17 to the federation and the Republika Srpska pertaining to the number of

18 missing persons in the area that used to be controlled by the ABiH?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that was leading, in my submission.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it was.

22 Reformulate the question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. This association of yours, were they able to establish anything

25 about the fate of those who went missing during the conflict in

Page 7568

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. In our organisation, we have the figure of 823 missing civilians

3 of Serbian ethnicity during the war.

4 Q. Tell me something else: During that part of your work, were you

5 able to find out anything about your father? Do you have any information

6 concerning him?

7 A. Yes. I learned that in 1998 the mortal remains of my father were

8 taken to an unknown location. When that was happening, Ibrahim Sangic

9 [phoen], an investigative judge was present.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, with respect, my submission is that

12 this evidence is irrelevant.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why do you say this is relevant, Mr. Tapuskovic?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If we're talking about just the

16 part that relates to his father, then maybe I could stop and then I would

17 not have any more examination.

18 I think my learned friend Mr. Sachdeva placed his objection at the

19 point in time when I was asking about the witness's father, so perhaps I

20 can then stop there and I have no further questions anymore.

21 Thank you, witness.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. So Mr. Sachdeva now.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

25 Q. Good evening, Mr. Mandic. My name is Manoj Sachdeva and I'm with

Page 7569

1 the Prosecution and I'm going to ask you few questions today and possibly

2 -- actually definitely also continue tomorrow.

3 Can I just start by you recall that you gave evidence about two

4 girls that were -- that had gone to the canteen and that were killed by

5 shell. I think that's what you said. Do you remember that evidence?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I take it that the canteen you speak about was the canteen at

8 the Slobodan Princip barracks in Lukavica; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you -- I understand that you were in the logistics battalion

11 for the 1st Sarajevo mechanised brigade?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you have a particular role in that battalion or were you

14 just -- in other words, were you a commander of the battalion or were you

15 simply working in that battalion?

16 A. I was just a regular soldier.

17 Q. And you were in the battalion from -- excluding the times when you

18 were wounded, I take it you were in that battalion from 1992 through to

19 1995; is that right?

20 A. From the 27th of May, 1992 until 1995, yes.

21 Q. And in that battalion you told the Court that you worked with

22 motor vehicles with wheels; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And presumably within the logistics battalion there were other

25 persons or your colleagues worked on similar -- worked also with vehicles

Page 7570

1 but did you also have colleagues that worked with ammunition or fuel? Is

2 that also correct?

3 A. Yes, it was the logistics battalion.

4 Q. And is it also right that the persons that a worked in the

5 logistics battalion were not involved in combat or were not on the front

6 lines? Is that right?

7 A. We went to the front lines if there was a need.

8 Q. So when you gave testimony today that you were involved in combat,

9 I think you spoke about the -- the difficulty of firing into Sarajevo

10 because your brother lived there. I take it you were involved in combat

11 as well as working in the logistics battalion. Am I correct in that

12 understanding?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And while you were in the logistics battalion, how often did you

15 venture to the front lines and how often were you involved in combat? And

16 if I may, I'm interested in the period in 1994 and 1995.

17 A. As I said, it was based on if it was necessary, if it was needed.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, in relation to the answer that you gave

19 to counsel about the difficulty of firing into Sarajevo because your

20 brother lived there, as a person working in the logistics section of the

21 army, would you have been firing into Sarajevo? Would you personally have

22 been firing into Sarajevo?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never -- we never fired first. But

24 if the lives of our children were concerned or my brother's life, then I

25 would want to make sure they stayed alive.

Page 7571

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, that is not the question I was asking. You

2 spoke about the difficulty of firing into Sarajevo because your brother

3 lived there. And I want to find out whether, as a person working in the

4 logistics section of the army, it would have been part of your duty to

5 fire a rifle or some other weapon into Sarajevo. Was that part of your

6 function?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At certain points, yes. If we were

8 attacked. Only in case we were attacked. But we would never fire at

9 Sarajevo just like that. There was no reason. And let me also tell you

10 that I only had an automatic rifle.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. Well, you had an automatic rifle.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: And if it were necessary, you would have fired

14 it. Would you have been called upon to fire it as a person working in the

15 logistics section of the army. Is that right?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


18 Q. So, Mr. Mandic, when you did venture to the front lines and when

19 you were called upon to fire into Sarajevo, were you still part of the

20 logistics battalion or were you part of another battalion; an infantry

21 battalion, for example?

22 A. I was part of the logistics battalion at all times. But, as I

23 said before, we were attached, because we didn't have that many men. We

24 were attached to carry out combat actions.

25 Q. Was your brother, because you spoke about your brother who had

Page 7572

1 remained in the centre of Sarajevo, was your brother a member of the army

2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or was he a civilian?

3 A. My brother remained loyal to the then authorities. He was taken

4 to the front lines by force until he was arrested by some men who detained

5 him and kept him until the end of the war, until the 18th of January,

6 1996. That's when he was exchanged.

7 Q. Yes, I'm sorry to hear that, and my question, however, was

8 slightly different. I just want to establish whether your brother was a

9 civilian. I take it that he was a civilian?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And so when you told the Court that, if necessary, you had to fire

12 into Sarajevo, and I think you told the Court that it didn't -- it didn't

13 sit well with you because your brother was still living in the centre of

14 Sarajevo. Is that how I understand your evidence?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. And it is right, is it not, that --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that we

19 could also object to this question where there's insistence on firing at

20 Sarajevo. He never said that he fired at Sarajevo. He said what were the

21 circumstances in which he had to shoot. The question about firing at

22 Sarajevo, I think is not appropriate, because he never said that he fired

23 at Sarajevo. He said that sometimes in certain circumstances he was

24 attached or he described the circumstances in which he fired. He

25 explained that, but he never said that he fired at Sarajevo. That

Page 7573

1 question is not appropriate. So that is the thrust of my objection.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not in a position to uphold it. I think the

3 question is proper.


5 Q. Mr. Mandic, I just -- I'm going to repeat the question. When you

6 told the Court that in certain circumstances you had to fire into

7 Sarajevo, you also told the Court that it didn't sit well with you because

8 your brother remained -- remained in the centre of Sarajevo? And is

9 that -- is that a correct understanding of your evidence?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: He already answered that and said that is

11 correct. You asked that already and he said that was correct.

12 MR. SACHDEVA: Oh, I apologise, Mr. President. I didn't see the

13 answer.

14 Q. And, Mr. Mandic, it troubled you because often when fire was

15 directed at Sarajevo, civilians would be killed and injured in the centre

16 of Sarajevo. That's why it troubled you, didn't it?

17 A. The activities, the combat activities that I spoke about were

18 mostly clashes between front lines. And I never was deployed anywhere to

19 be able to fire into the centre of Sarajevo. We mainly fought between

20 Dobrinja IV, Dobrinja II and Dobrinja IV -- III.

21 Q. So your brother did not live in the centre of Sarajevo. Is that

22 what you're saying?

23 A. No. My brother did live in the centre of Sarajevo, at

24 Dolac-Malta.

25 Q. And that's why I'm asking you to -- well, I'm suggesting to you

Page 7574

1 that the reason why you were troubled about firing into Sarajevo when --

2 when, as you said, when it was necessary, you were troubled because

3 regularly civilians were hit, killed and injured by fire coming from the

4 SRK?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

7 responded to the Prosecutor's question, not to my question, but to the

8 Prosecutor's question in relation to this problem. He said that in the

9 situation when I am faced with the choice of saving my children and firing

10 at the other side, I would decide to fire on the other side and to protect

11 my children. So I don't understand why there is so much insistence on

12 this. The witness has already responded several times to this.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, no, he has not. This question is

14 more specific.

15 Witness, the question being put to you is that you were troubled

16 because regularly civilians were hit, killed and injured by fire coming

17 from the SRK. Counsel is suggesting that what is why you were troubled

18 about firing into Sarajevo.

19 How do you answer that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said anything like that in

21 my testimony.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You never said what?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that civilians were

24 getting killed from fire opened by the army of Republika Srpska.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not what counsel is saying. Counsel is

Page 7575

1 saying that you were troubled, you were worried about firing into Sarajevo

2 because civilians were regularly getting killed and injured by fire coming

3 from the SRK. He's saying that that is the reason why you were worried

4 and troubled about firing into Sarajevo.

5 Is he right or is he not right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is not right, and if

7 you allow me, I will explain.

8 I said that my own brother was taken to the front lines by force.

9 That could possibly be Zuc, Dobrinja, Stup. It doesn't matter. And then

10 when we had combat actions in relation to the enemy side, then I was

11 thinking in my mind about perhaps if my brother had been brought there as

12 a soldier, actually he never wore a uniform. He wore civilian clothing.

13 A Serb there would be collateral damage. And that's when I said that that

14 was when I had it in my mind that perhaps I could hit my own brother. But

15 if the lives of my children and the life of my brother were in question,

16 then I said that I would choose to protect the lives of my children. This

17 is what I said.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: On that note, we'll take the break and resume

19 tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 a.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th of July,

22 2007, at 9.00 a.m.