Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7823

1 Monday, 9 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 Thank you. This witness enjoys certain protection -- protective measures,

12 in particular this is Witness T-61, pseudonym and image distortion.

13 Could we show this document to the witness, please.

14 I'd like to tender this document as a Defence exhibit under seal.


16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes D288, under seal.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We should continue in

19 private session, please, in order to go through the witness's particulars.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

21 [Private session]

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Page 7824











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Page 7825

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Please explain to the Judges something that has to do with the

20 beginning of the conflict. What did you have to do as part of your work

21 in the hospital.

22 A. Basically my current tasks, those of a surgeon, the only thing

23 that changed was the structure of the patients. Before we dealt with

24 different pathology, mainly traffic accidents, but now we had many wounded

25 people. I was the head of a team of 12 to 16 people who worked on the

Page 7826

1 patients coming to the hospital mainly due to war activities.

2 Q. Which type of wound -- of the wounded prevailed at first, let's

3 say early 1992?

4 A. I can start with April 1992, if this is what you have in mind.

5 What prevailed then were wounded people which began around the 6th or the

6 7th of April and lasted until June, some three or four months, I would say

7 late June. It was particularly heavy in early June and many people were

8 wounded at that time. There were both civilians and soldiers. Some of

9 them would come in in full JNA uniform at first, at the beginning of the

10 war; and later we saw many wounded in camouflage uniforms, some in full

11 uniforms, some with only parts of uniforms, some wearing civilian clothes

12 or a mixture. This is what situation was like in terms of the type of

13 clothing, but these were mainly younger people.

14 At the beginning of the war, another interesting thing is that

15 particularly until the 10th or the 12th or the 15th of April there were

16 many wounded who were captured JNA soldiers. These were children, 19 or

17 20 years of age, because that was the time to serve your military term.

18 They were basically abandoned by their officers in the facilities where

19 they were without electricity or water, and then they would try and go out

20 into town. Many got wounded then. Some even caused some self-inflicted

21 wounds in order to be admitted into the hospital. Many of them were

22 awaited by the Patriotic League, who would wait for them in front of the

23 hospital, and I don't know what their fate would be as of that moment

24 onwards. The rumour had it that they would usually be exchanged.

25 Q. What about later, the type of the wounded as time passed by

Page 7827

1 compared to April 1992?

2 A. 50 or 60 per cent of the wounded were usually soldiers. 30 to 40

3 per cent were civilians, out of which 5 to 8 per cent were children.

4 Q. You are now talking about the hospital which was in the area of

5 responsibility which was under the control of the Army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. At first they were called the Patriotic League, then the Green

8 Berets, and then the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that is the area,

9 yes.

10 Q. Until early January 1994, you worked in the hospital?

11 A. My last working day, as I said, was the 2nd of January, 1994. I

12 worked regularly on my -- at my duties until that day.

13 Q. As a physician, what do you think of your work at the time? Did

14 you change your modus operandi as opposed to the time before the war?

15 A. Physicians don't change their attitude towards their work; we only

16 adjust to the conditions. We operated on all people equally, among which

17 there was the minister of health, Dr. Izetbegovic's physician who was

18 wounded due to a fall he sustained. I operated on him since I had the

19 most experience, and they wanted to have the most experienced operator.

20 Juka Prazina was operated on as well, who at the time was a powerful

21 figure in Sarajevo.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, where is all this taking us, all

23 this detail? Please lead the witness to evidence that is more relevant.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a witness

25 who will testify to certain combat actions that had to do with that area,

Page 7828

1 but also he's in a good position as the doctor whom we heard before, Dr.

2 Pejic, to testify about other things. There was a serious discussion on

3 the relevance with that witness, and we had to forward our written

4 submission. This doctor worked in that hospital, which was in the AOR of

5 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

6 Could we please move into private session or closed session to --

7 in order to discuss this?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: To discuss what? You mean evidence from the

9 witness or is it submissions which you wish to make?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to mention a certain

11 piece of information about this witness, and then we can immediately

12 return into open session. I wanted to state another piece of information

13 that has to do something with his testimony which might potentially

14 identify him.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Private session.

16 [Private session]

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Page 7829

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, you also testified in the Galic case. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7830

1 Q. You also testified in another proceedings conducted in Trebinje

2 back in 1996. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes. I think it was Judge Stevic or Stanic who summoned me to the

4 Trebinje court. I provided a statement and a testimony which lasted for

5 about an hour or an hour and a half.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I received a

7 document from the Prosecutor which is 65 ter document 3388. It has been

8 partially translated. I would kindly ask for the document to be shown to

9 the witness, since I wanted to put the translated part to him. I also

10 wanted to ask him a few things that he testified about before that

11 investigating judge in Trebinje.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I have it in Serbian, please?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us go to page 6, please, in

14 B/C/S, and this is the page that we see in the English.

15 Q. Can you look at paragraph 2, please, and if you can read the

16 paragraph.

17 A. "I have witnessed shells falling into the Kosevo Hospital area on

18 many occasions."

19 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness very well.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second, please.

21 The interpreter is not able to hear the witness very well.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll start from the beginning.

23 "I have witnessed shells falling onto the Kosevo Hospital area on

24 many occasions. They hit the traumatology clinic twice in my immediate

25 vicinity. However, this always happened after repeated fire by the Muslim

Page 7831

1 army just below the traumatology clinic, where a school of some sort was

2 located and we would always take shelter later on as soon as they started

3 to fire on the Serb positions. This clinic was some 15 metres away from

4 the faculty of civil engineering, where this school was located."

5 And I have to add something. The institute for construction

6 material was at this distance. The faculty was about 10 to 30 -- or 10 to

7 50 metres behind that.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Thank you. And what weapons did the Muslim army fire from the

10 vicinity of the hospital?

11 A. As part of the university --

12 MS. EDGERTON: Excuse me, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14 MS. EDGERTON: I would just like to make the point -- I'm not

15 raising a strong objection at this point, but I would just like to make

16 the point that this testimony was not something that was mentioned in the

17 65 ter summary at all, although of course we were aware this witness had

18 testified in the Galic case and have reviewed that testimony. But this

19 was not -- the nature of weapons that may or may not have been in the

20 vicinity of Kosevo Hospital was not something that was referred to in his

21 65 ter summary; it was something that was brought up in his Galic

22 testimony.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I hear the submission.

24 Continue, Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 7832

1 Q. Can you please explain to the Judges in more details which weapons

2 were fired from the vicinity of the hospital.

3 A. I saw the weapons, these were two small tanks, camouflaged, and

4 they moved in the yard among four buildings that were there in that

5 complex near the faculty, and they mainly fired in the direction of

6 Poljine, which is where the Serbian army was east -- to the east. It was

7 in the area called -- that we called Jezero and farther off. Usually what

8 happened was that after two or three firings from the same weapons, we

9 would take shelter in a different part of the building because this part

10 of the building facing the faculty was usually hit.

11 Q. And here on the same page, a little bit lower down, you mentioned

12 the Patriotic League that was in a building. Can you please read the last

13 paragraph of that same page. Yes, you can read that. There is a

14 translation for us.

15 A. "Immediately at the beginning of the war" --

16 Q. No, no, the last paragraph.

17 A. "There was also a command of the Patriotic League in the basement

18 and on the ground floor of the Faculty of Stomatology and the clinic and

19 in most of the schools and kindergartens that I know of in the vicinity of

20 the Kosevo Hospital. The commander of the staff at the stomatology clinic

21 was Juka Prazina, and I do not know who the staff commanders at the other

22 places that were mentioned were."

23 Q. These schools, these hospitals, what were they turned into, can

24 you please tell us?

25 A. It was in the following way --

Page 7833

1 Q. Witness, can you please wait for my question to be completely

2 transcribed, otherwise we're not going to get anywhere.

3 A. I went to the dentistry clinic to look at the wife of Juka Prazina

4 who was injured. He asked me to do that because I performed surgery on

5 him in February of that year, following injuries in a fight. The basement

6 area of the building was barricaded with timber and sandbags or bags

7 filled with earth, and the entrance for us staff was the side entrance and

8 everything was under guard. The kindergarten just underneath the medical

9 faculty where my friends lived nearby was full of soldiers. I don't know

10 the names. I don't know the names of the command particularly.

11 Q. Thank you. On page 4 --

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 4 on the

13 screen, please. There is no translation.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Before we go further, can we just confirm whether

15 we're talking about the period of 1992, 1993, 19 -- or some point in time

16 in 1994?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What year is this, Witness?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the question of the

19 soldiers being in these buildings, this went on throughout the whole war.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Well, then, Your Honour, I would submit it's

21 irrelevant because we have no indication as to the basis of the witness's

22 knowledge in that regard.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that doesn't make it irrelevant. It goes

24 to a different issue of whether it is believable and reliable.

25 But let us know, Witness, what is the basis of your knowledge in

Page 7834

1 this matter?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at the dentistry clinic twice,

3 and the situation both times was the way that I described it just now.

4 One time I was next to the kindergarten that I mentioned and I saw what I

5 described. The same thing was at the Kosevsko hill school --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last part

7 of what the witness said.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just repeat the last part of what you

9 said; the interpreter didn't hear it.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same situation was in the

11 elementary school of Kosevsko Brdo, Kosevo hill, where the army was. I

12 know that because my younger daughter went to this school, of course

13 before the war. I went to work -- when I went to work, I often passed by

14 this school.


16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And you mentioned the kindergarten in your testimony. Can you

18 briefly tell us what you know about the kindergarten, which was used as a

19 kindergarten up to a certain point.

20 A. It was a kindergarten until the beginning of the war; after that,

21 no children went to the kindergarten. The kindergarten was located just

22 below the Mosa Pijade Street, that was its name before the war, and that's

23 near the medical faculty. Passing by the kindergarten, I have to mention

24 this once, I saw that there was soldiers inside and that there was a guard

25 posted outside.

Page 7835

1 Q. Now in your testimony, as well as your testimony in the Galic

2 case, you spoke about the suffering of people and some of your friends.

3 Can you briefly tell us what you know about that during the period you

4 were in the hospital and worked there until the beginning of 1994?

5 A. I know about the suffering of Serbs and Muslims --

6 Q. Can you please wait for my whole question to be typed out before

7 you begin your answer.

8 A. I know about the suffering of both Serbs and Muslims. I would

9 like to speak about the late Professor Milutin Najdanovic who went -- who

10 retired just before the war. He lived near the Kosevo Hospital in a

11 neighbourhood of the same name, Kosevo. A group of Muslim police, special

12 police, called Crna, took him out of his apartment one evening in front of

13 his wife, daughter, and granddaughter, and 50 metres away from his

14 apartment they killed him. He was found --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes -- yes, let us hear Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Now I'm rising on the point of relevance, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I would tend to agree with you, unless Mr.

19 Tapuskovic is able to persuade me otherwise.

20 Can you persuade me, Mr. Tapuskovic?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] These are matters in the area of

22 responsibility at the time of the command of Dragomir Milosevic were not

23 happening. These were events that were in any case of significant

24 influence on the decision of people to maintain their positions so that

25 these things would just -- would not happen just like that, for no reason.

Page 7836

1 That is one of the elements.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not relevant. We have said time and again

3 that evidence of Serb suffering is not in and of itself relevant. You

4 must be able to link it to some issue in the indictment. Move on to

5 another matter.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness just

8 said both Serbs and Muslims. He said that specifically. I'm not

9 insisting on Serbs. He said Serbs and Muslims experienced the same

10 things. This is what --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It doesn't make any difference. That particular

12 piece of evidence is irrelevant.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I just say one more sentence,

14 Your Honours?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not on this matter. Move on to another area of

16 the witness's evidence that is relevant.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, do you recall any events relating to gun-fire connected

19 to the area of responsibility under the command of the Army of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina?

21 A. There was shooting in the town throughout the war --

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in French it was

23 translated as "artillery fire." I mentioned infantry, gun-fire, so

24 gun-fire.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the transcript it is: "Do you recall any

Page 7837

1 events relating to gun-fire ..."

2 Is that what you said?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague was listening to the

4 transcript in French, and there they said "artillery fire," but if in

5 English -- in English it's okay.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well. Proceed.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Yes, yes, can you please answer if you personally noticed or

9 experienced anything like that.

10 A. I said that there was firing in town the whole time. Of course we

11 heard gun-fire more because it was closer. On one occasion I was with my

12 wife at the Adra benevolence society, and it's close to the railway

13 station. There were about 80 to 120 people in a column there waiting for

14 assistance that was being delivered by name, but aid was delivered also to

15 those who did not put their names down for that from the same humanitarian

16 organisation. There was some gun-fire then in my opinion and according to

17 the sound it came from the Energoinvest building. The people fled. Some

18 threw themselves on the ground. I hid behind a wall, and I saw that from

19 the one-floor-but-last of the Energoinvest building there was a white

20 smoke. And judging by the direction of the sound, we understood that

21 that's where the fire came from.

22 I was lucky at another time, also in the summer of 1993, I think

23 that that's when it was, maybe in the middle of summer. I was walking on

24 the square in front of the railway station, and in front of me some 2 or 3

25 metres a bullet hit the asphalt. And I walked fast and then another one

Page 7838

1 fell behind me. Then I jumped behind a building and I could see two or

2 three shots. It all came from the area of Marin Dvor and earlier we heard

3 that there was certain activity, firing activity, from a high-rise

4 building near the technical school. And from the place where I was, the

5 building was maybe some 3 to 350 metres away as the crow flies.

6 Q. That location at Marin Dvor and the building you mentioned --

7 A. Energoinvest.

8 Q. Were in whose territory?

9 A. Of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina throughout the war.

10 Q. Can you tell us what happened in early January. Until then you

11 worked as a physician. What followed in the beginning of January 1994?

12 A. Between the 3rd and 4th of January, during the night, around 2.00

13 in the morning, the police knocked on my door, at least that's how they

14 introduced themselves. I opened the door. I was alone. Five policemen

15 entered. One held a torch-light turned towards my face, and another

16 couple of policemen were holding me at gun point. The other two or

17 searching the apartment. The whole thing may have lasted some 30 seconds.

18 I was taken downstairs to the vehicle they had and was taken to the

19 apartment of Dr. Ivan Sabljak. Then both of us were taken to

20 Dr. Nemanja Veljkov's apartment. Since he wasn't home, we were then taken

21 to the hospital and then to the police station. From that moment on we

22 were detained.

23 Three days after that, Ivan Sabljak's father hanged himself; he

24 was also a doctor.

25 Q. Can you explain the Judges what the reason was for your arrest.

Page 7839

1 Did they tell you anything about it? Were there any proceedings?

2 A. We don't know what the real reason was. It wasn't explained to us

3 at the moment of our arrest. While we were in the jail and when we

4 received an indictment, it read that we were accused of committing

5 genocide, of evading to serve the military service, and to do our work

6 obligation. We were also accused with collaborating with the enemy, which

7 means with the Serbian side.

8 Q. What sort of genocide, did they explain it to you?

9 A. Not the prosecutor, but Fahija Karkanj an attorney, explained it

10 to me, he shared my prison cell with me. He said what they thought

11 genocide was, when any assembly took place which had more than three

12 people in one place, they accused us of preparing an escape through the

13 sewage shaft, which by the way does not exist. We were simply collected

14 at our homes and there was something reported in the media cut out by my

15 brother who showed it to me.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop, please.

17 Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I would submit that this testimony is

19 not relevant to the charges against Dragomir Milosevic.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just explain the relevance, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the terror

22 aimed at the civilians in Sarajevo, permanent terror, because people were

23 detained for no reason. That was the terror in its true meaning: Such

24 murders and arrests without justification. I believe in the overall

25 context it is of great significance, since we are discussing here the

Page 7840

1 situation in which Dragomir Milosevic is charged with terrorising under

2 the circumstances when he merely had to respond to enemy activity during

3 heavy offensives. The true terror in the literal meaning of the word, as

4 interpreted by the entire world, happened in Sarajevo itself. People were

5 arrested like this, held in prisons, and killed, like his -- this

6 witness's friend, Dr. Najdanovic. There was never any terror in the sense

7 the indictment describes it, rather it existed in Sarajevo, literally

8 speaking, and it was of the nature described by this witness. This is

9 nothing other but terrorist behaviour. Of course it is up to you to

10 determine the relevance of this, but the disappearing of people, detaining

11 people, and keeping them in camps in the AOR of the Army of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina in that area is a textbook example of terror, as is

13 interpreted by the entire world.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but even if that is so, how does it become

15 relevant to the charges of terror against the accused? Because even if we

16 agree that it is terror, that would not mean that the Prosecution's

17 allegation of terror against the accused is not substantiated. They may

18 very well have been terrorised, the doctor and his friends, but what I am

19 not seeing from your submission is an explanation as to how that helps

20 you, assists the Defence, in relation to the Prosecution's charge of

21 terror against the accused. That's what you need to explain to me.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] As I have explained on several

23 occasions, upon your request, was that the intensity of combat activity on

24 the part of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was something that needed response.

25 What the Army of Republika Srpska did was not a campaign directed at

Page 7841

1 civilians. What we were able to hear from witnesses, who like this

2 witness were able to cross to the other side, as we will hear during the

3 material time he managed to cross over, that means that what we managed to

4 hear from those people about the things happening in the territory of

5 Republika Srpska was something that strengthened their determination to

6 preserve the positions they had, not to respond in the same way and they

7 never did, we submit. But rather, this strengthened their decision and

8 wish to hold on to their own, particularly during the time of command of

9 Dragomir Milosevic. They wanted to keep their positions so as not to

10 suffer the same fate as the people who were on the other side. Such

11 things particularly did not happen in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps AOR

12 during the time of command of Dragomir Milosevic.

13 We've already explained this, and it is a very important reason

14 that kept them at their positions. It only strengthened their

15 determination, and they only undertook the activities that were necessary

16 to do so. However, that did not amount to any sort of campaign on the

17 part of the Army of Republika Srpska, particularly during the material

18 time, that was directed against civilians. This encompasses June, July,

19 and the following months. There was no such a campaign in place in

20 particular between August 1994 and until 1995.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

22 MS. EDGERTON: I'll maintain my objection, underlining that we're

23 here talking about a pre-indictment period. There might be some marginal

24 issue of relevance if this was something that had occurred during the

25 period of the indictment, but we're talking about a period sometime a year

Page 7842

1 more ahead of the indictment period.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not an easy matter to

4 determine the relevance of this evidence. It is not abundantly clear that

5 it is -- that it is relevant. For one, it deals with the pre-indictment

6 period, as Ms. Edgerton says. Are you going to be bringing evidence from

7 this witness about the indictment period? Please don't make a speech.

8 Just answer yes or no.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was about to

10 move to that period.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then some of my -- one of my colleagues is

12 particularly concerned about the absence of any evidence relating to the

13 specific incidents in the indictment, and has urged me to inquire whether

14 you have any evidence in relation to those incidents, the incidents of

15 sniping and shelling that are set out in the indictment. Or is that not

16 part of the case that you are presenting to us?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, through this

18 witness -- I have to go back yet again to the indictment. It is quite

19 certain, and I have to repeat on this occasion as well, that the

20 indictment probably would not have dealt itself with the time until August

21 1994, and had it not been so we would have had a much easier task. Sorry,

22 I have to correct myself. Not the indictment, the Defence would like --

23 would have liked not to have to refer to the time preceding the time of

24 command of Dragomir Milosevic, which is August 1994 until the 21st of

25 November, 1995. In that case, Defence could have dealt with the situation

Page 7843

1 on a far more easier way. However, I feel obliged to state yet again that

2 a mere month before the beginning of the trial we received an amended

3 indictment. There was no possibility to submit any procedural submission

4 or objection to it. However, the changes were capital. It states that

5 Dragomir Milosevic as of the day when he assumed command inherited the

6 command and the campaign and pursued it further, as it existed until that

7 time.

8 Therefore, Defence was found in a situation in which it could not

9 forego of a single day before the time in the indictment, concluding all

10 the general matters that preceded it. Therefore, we felt obliged to

11 tackle the events of 1992, 1993, and to introduce such witnesses as this

12 one. This witness, this doctor, will also testify about certain things

13 that Dr. Pejic had mentioned, which is the victims, the wounded, and

14 casualties that he was able to observe while working in one hospital and

15 then in another one. You approved of such testimony at that time after a

16 written submission by the Prosecutor on the lack of relevance, and after

17 our written submission and the discussion that followed, you decided still

18 that it had relevance, since the victims on the other side did not exist

19 in a vacuum. They speak to the intensity of activities of the Army

20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, particularly in the summer of 1995, whereas during

21 an entire lengthy period of time preceding that one there were no such

22 combat activities.

23 This witness should complete his part of testimony in the next ten

24 minutes concerning the initial phase, and then we wanted to move on to the

25 other phase of his testimony, which is when he worked in the other

Page 7844

1 hospital and he can tell us whom he treated there.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what period does that relate to?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The period of the summer of 1994

4 until the end of the war. Summer 1994 until the end of the war.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I think we'd be more interested in

6 hearing that.

7 Judge Mindua has a question.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not really a

9 question, but this is an observation I'd like to make. As our Presiding

10 Judge has said, the work we do is a very delicate job. There is equality

11 of arms between the Prosecution and the Defence, and both parties need to

12 submit their arguments. As far as I'm concerned, I understand full well

13 the position of the Prosecutor and I understand -- or at least I tried to

14 understand because the Prosecution has presented us with an indictment.

15 And you wish to challenge this indictment. And this is why I'm making an

16 effort and trying to understand what it is you're doing. I want to make

17 sure that I understand what you are doing correctly.

18 So we have the pre-indictment period and we have -- so we have the

19 period which precedes the time when Dragomir Milosevic commanded the unit,

20 and then we have the period which covers the time when Dragomir Milosevic

21 was the commander. And you are right in saying that according to the

22 indictment he inherited the campaign from General Galic. And this is --

23 your argument goes to the terror charge when you say this.

24 And what I would like to know is whether the terror existed

25 because it was due to Dragomir Milosevic or that it was a pervasive terror

Page 7845

1 that was there anyway because of the various sides that were combatting

2 each other. Now, for the period which starts at the time when Dragomir

3 Milosevic was commanding the SRK, what I would like to know is this: Are

4 you saying that terror did not exist or existed for all and everyone

5 without any distinction, and whether you are going to dwell on the

6 incidents which the Prosecution mentions in its indictment? You don't

7 have to, of course, you have your own strategy, but this is just a

8 question I want to put to you because I'd like to know.

9 Once Dragomir Milosevic was a commander of the SRK, are you going

10 to once again dwell on the issue of terror or are you going to rebut the

11 arguments of the Prosecution relating more specifically to all the

12 incidents contained in the indictment? This is my question.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, had we stayed with

14 the original indictment that was in force until a month before the trial

15 began, I would have dealt exclusively with that time-period and I would

16 have tried to demonstrate what the period from December to -- from August

17 to December 1994 was like, and from December to May 1995 and onwards.

18 However, what we were able to do in relation to certain incidents from the

19 indictment, we did and we managed to gather the number of exhibits that

20 were available relating to those incidents. During the time of the

21 events, no officer of the Army of Republika Srpska was able to go across

22 to the side under the control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and to

23 check for possible evidence relating to the period of command of Dragomir

24 Milosevic. So what we are trying to show is that it was not possible to

25 conduct any kind of research or investigation because it was absolutely

Page 7846

1 out of the question to cross over to the other side and to establish

2 certain things. What we can do in the context of the evidence presented

3 by the Prosecutor is to deal with each of the incidents, but in order to

4 analyse each of those incidents we need to wait till the end of the trial.

5 And we will most definitely try to present our arguments to you, whereby

6 we consider that the incidents were not proved as an act of direct fire by

7 the accused, Dragomir Milosevic.

8 And, Your Honour, Judge Mindua, that will be our most difficult

9 and most important task. It will be our most important task, and we

10 believe that based on the evidence already presented by the Prosecutor, we

11 can point to certain things and show that the incidents that the

12 indictment is based on are not the way the Prosecutor is presenting them.

13 In some cases, such as in the case of a witness heard by you a few days

14 ago here or there was a witness here who spoke about events relating to

15 Grdonja we can discuss those documents but it is not possible for us to

16 find witnesses from the actual place where things happened. But based on

17 the evidence presented by the Prosecutor we can demonstrate that many of

18 them were victims of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the Defence

19 understands this to be as its most difficult task to deal with the

20 incidents. However, in these circumstances all we can do now is to talk

21 about the things that we can prove.

22 First of all, that there was no such campaign. Absolutely there

23 was no such campaign as something that dominated. This is the most

24 serious part of the indictment. That there was no terrorising the

25 population. But, as I explained several times before, I don't want to

Page 7847

1 repeat it, what we are trying to show is that the campaign, that's the

2 gist of the indictment, and then we intend to deal with the incidents. So

3 we are obliged when the time comes to present to you all of our reasons in

4 relation to each specific incident.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]


7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. Just one really

8 important point to make of a general nature because Mr. Tapuskovic keeps

9 repeating that the Prosecution changed kind of the rules of the game by

10 issuing its new indictment, amended indictment, a month before trial. The

11 indictment word by word almost verbatim followed the old indictment, and

12 it just spelled it out more clearly. Because already in the old

13 indictment in paragraph 4 it says: "For 44 months the Sarajevo-Romanija

14 Corps implemented a military strategy which used shelling and sniping to

15 kill, maim, wound, and terrorise the civilian inhabitants of Sarajevo.

16 The shelling and sniping killed and wounded thousands of civilians of both

17 sexes and all ages, including civilian children and the elderly."

18 It goes on already in the original indictment to talk about the

19 role of the accused as the Chief of Staff under General Galic. The

20 word "inherited" is a new word which just spells out that the Chief of

21 Staff during the Galic period took over this campaign outlined in the

22 Galic indictment. It was more clear. It talks more about the, perhaps,

23 the previous roles the accused had as a commander of the 1st Sarajevo

24 Brigade in 1992, but the characteristics of the campaign did not change at

25 all. So it's really important for me to tell you, Mr. President, Your

Page 7848

1 Honours, that the case was exactly the same under the old indictment and

2 under the new indictment. Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: But to the extent that you say that the accused

4 inherited the campaign of General Galic, it would assist the Defence to

5 show that there was no such campaign during General Galic's time for the

6 accused to inherit. Isn't that so?

7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, and they are totally free to do that.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.

11 Before I continue my examination-in-chief, and I don't have too

12 much left, I'm going to finish before the break, I would like to tender

13 the 65 ter document 3388 as a Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Under seal.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Under seal.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as D289, under

18 seal.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness T-61, perhaps we can cover things were quickly now. Let's

21 not go back to the prison. How long were you there?

22 A. I was exchanged and crossed over to the Serb side on the 16th of

23 June, 1994. I was imprisoned for five and a half months.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into

25 private session for a moment, please.

Page 7849

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.


16 Q. [No interpretation]

17 A. The hospital was east of Sarajevo, some 3 kilometres to the east

18 the airport on the slopes of Trebevic, close to Mojmilo hill. And

19 soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska were mostly treated there as well

20 as civilians from the Grbavica, Vrace, and the Ilidza area around

21 Nedzarici and Trnovo and Kalinovik, and partially Trebevic, from all those

22 settlements, Dobrinja and so on, Lukavica, as well as the other closer

23 neighbourhoods.

24 Q. [Interpretation] You said you got there in June?

25 A. Late June.

Page 7850

1 Q. Okay, late June. Did you ever meet General Dragomir Milosevic?

2 A. The first time I saw him was here. I heard of his name, of

3 course, but I don't know when he took over his position from the previous

4 commander.

5 Q. What was your job. What were you doing?

6 A. Mostly I was working in the hospital. I was sleeping there as

7 well. I spent four months under the Treskavica in the place of Kalinovik

8 where we had mobile medical units.

9 Q. How long did you stay in that hospital?

10 A. I stayed in the hospital until after the war, until March or April

11 1996.

12 Q. And now, if you can just answer a few more questions. You got

13 there in late June. Can you please describe the situation there until the

14 end of 1994 in terms of the wounded. You said that you treated civilians

15 and soldiers. Can you, please, describe that time until the end of 1994.

16 A. It seems to me that --

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm no longer in private session,

18 Your Honour?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall that period from the time

20 that I arrived at the Kasindol Hospital until the end as a relatively

21 peaceful period. There weren't many military actions. The number of

22 soldiers was not that large. More wounded tended to come from Grbavica,

23 because that was densely populated and it was close to a place we called

24 Debelo Brdo or Debeli Brijeg which was behind the neighbourhood and there

25 was fire from war weapons from that area. I believe one afternoon I

Page 7851

1 treated four women who were seriously wounded. I guess there was more

2 activity in terms of fire that day.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And, Witness T-61, how long did this quiet period last?

5 A. This was until sometime in October. Already in October we had to

6 move the mobile surgical unit to Kalinovik and we had to take a detour of

7 some 300 kilometres because the Kalinovik-Sarajevo or the

8 Kalinovik-Kasindol road was cut for the wounded and we had to relocate the

9 mobile surgical unit, numbering three surgeons and other staff to an

10 institution in Kalinovik. We had to take a detour of some 300 kilometres

11 in order to reach Kalinovik, even though it's 50 kilometres away if you

12 took the usual route there. Activities intensified then but this was more

13 in Treskavica in those areas of the -- not so much in the civilian

14 neighbourhoods, and that's when we started to treat more soldiers and more

15 civilian from Trnovo.

16 Q. Thank you. And how long did this last?

17 A. It's difficult to determine the exact period, but we stayed up

18 there throughout the winter.

19 Q. And did a different period follow that one?

20 A. In the summer, if you're thinking of 1995 --

21 Q. I'm thinking of early 1995.

22 A. I think in early 1995, it could have been March. Well let's say

23 it was late March/early spring, there was activities on Igman and

24 Treskavica and I was on Kasindol at the time while my other colleagues

25 were in Kalinovik.

Page 7852

1 Q. And what was the period that you remember? What do you remember

2 that was characteristic for that period, that is, out of the ordinary?

3 A. I think in June or July 1995 and November 1995, I remembered in

4 June I was in Kasindol and in November I was in Kalinovik. Kalinovik was

5 intensely shelled. There was a pupil killed in front of her school at the

6 time, and the facility we were in also was hit but there was no major

7 damage. And I was hit by shrapnel, but it only got my trousers.

8 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in June and July.

9 A. Are you thinking of 1995?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. It was a very difficult period. I think that that was when

12 Lukavica was bombed and the buildings around Kalinovik also. The bridges

13 in Foca were bombed and the communications were cut.

14 Q. Please, I'm interested in the Sarajevo municipalities.

15 A. The Sarajevo municipalities are Lukavica, which was intensely

16 bombarded, it lost several buildings, a few civilians were hit, including

17 some soldiers; and Trnovo also suffered a lot of damage. Since our team

18 could not get through to Trnovo, we called a team from the Foca Hospital,

19 which then went to Trnovo.

20 Q. How many wounded were there at the time and what was the type of

21 injuries?

22 A. Most injuries were caused by shelling because the sides were

23 farther apart and plain gun fire was useless. If you mean in terms of

24 structure, I can tell you that there were many more civilians who were

25 wounded in Trnovo than soldiers.

Page 7853

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

3 Honours.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours. I note the time, and in light

6 of the fact that the greater part of this witness's testimony this morning

7 dealt with events around Kosevo Hospital, the use of weapons, none of

8 which we had received any notice of in the 65 ter summary, I wonder if I

9 might make this unusual request, that we take the break now and resume at

10 the normal time, which would give me a chance to review his earlier

11 testimony in detail and finalise my cross-examination. I think it might

12 work to expedite things later on.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you have characterised it as an unusual

14 request, Ms. Edgerton, but you have made it before. But it's still -- Mr.

15 Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, it is

17 stated clearly: [In French]" -- The beginning of the armed conflict in

18 Sarajevo and the activities from the Kosevo Hospital."

19 [In B/C/S] It is very clearly stated -- it is clearly stated in

20 the summary that we were to deal with the activities from the hospital.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, in all the circumstances we will grant the

23 request. We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

Page 7854

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

4 Q. Witness 61, and that's how I'll refer to you, I'd like to ask you

5 some questions today based on some of the testimony you've given and some

6 of the things you've said previously to this Tribunal and to other

7 authorities. Now, if you can't understand anything that I say, if it's

8 not clear or if you don't hear it, you'll please tell me, wouldn't you?

9 A. Yes, certainly.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, just to clear up a couple of things. From what I

11 understand from you, from January to June 1994, you were detained. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Between the 2nd of January and the 16th of June that year.

14 Q. And from your exchange, if I can call it that, until the end of

15 the conflict you were not within Bosnian-held territory in any regard. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. That is correct, I was not.

18 Q. So you have no information then based on personal experience as to

19 the situation within Sarajevo from January 1994. That's when your

20 personal experience ended?

21 A. It is correct that there was no personal experience, but I watched

22 television and listened to the radio on -- from both sides.

23 Q. When you say "from both sides," by that I take to mean you

24 listened to Serb radio and TV as well as Bosnian radio and TV. Is that

25 correct?

Page 7855

1 A. Yes, you put it correctly.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, am I also correct when I say that I understand

3 that during the conflict there were actually at least three hospitals in

4 Bosnian-held Sarajevo that received patients, the Kosevo Hospital, the

5 state hospital, and the hospital in Dobrinja. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, it is. The Dobrinja Hospital was a small facility of some 20

7 beds in total. It was headed by Hadzi Jusuf who used to be my work mate.

8 I used to be his boss.

9 Q. Now, people then came to these hospitals for help actually

10 depending on the area in which they were or maybe their ability to access

11 the hospital safely. Isn't that correct?

12 A. At the beginning of the war, it was a bit different, but later it

13 was as you put it. The first five or six months of the war there was a

14 distribution centre of sorts in place. It was housed in the clinic where

15 I worked, and the distribution was done by the team that I headed. We

16 were but one of the surgical clinics. We also sent people to the state

17 hospital, which used to be the military hospital. We did not send people

18 to the Dobrinja facility, though, because access to it was difficult. It

19 was risky to go there and it was also small.

20 Q. Now, moving on to another area. You, I understand then,

21 personally didn't see whether from August 1994 to November 1995 there were

22 armed soldiers in or around Kosevo Hospital; it was simply impossible, you

23 weren't there. Is that correct?

24 A. It is correct, and I wasn't able to see that.

25 Q. All right. Similarly --

Page 7856

1 A. However, I have to add something. One could see the civil

2 engineering faculty close to the hospital on television. One could see

3 the exercises conducted there by different troops. Therefore, we did have

4 some indirect information.

5 Q. I'll get to the subject of the media towards the end, actually, of

6 our time together. But just to go on along this line, similarly, you

7 personally did not see whether between August 1994 and November 1995

8 Bosnian forces fired anything from the hospital ground or the facilities?

9 You weren't there, you didn't see it. Anything you learned from the media

10 was second-hand?

11 A. I was 10 kilometres away. I wasn't able to see that -- or maybe

12 12 or 15 kilometres away.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. In line

15 -- that is, page 34, line 9, there was a mention of artillery exercises,

16 whereas it says here "troops." It doesn't reflect accurately what the

17 witness had said.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say the witness actually said?

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague followed the

20 transcript. There was a mention of an artillery school that trained

21 there. Perhaps the witness can confirm or correct us.


23 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, that wasn't the question I

24 had asked initially, and I don't quite follow the issue with respect to

25 the transcript any longer.

Page 7857

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but let us just have the witness tell us.

2 What is it that you said, Witness, about seeing either troops or

3 exercises conducted there by different troops?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was in Sarajevo until the

5 3rd of January, 1994, that is, there was an artillery school there which

6 was founded in the first couple of months of the war. I believe it

7 remained there until the end of the war, but I cannot know that.

8 MS. EDGERTON: I understood -- my question went to whether or not

9 the witness had seen Bosnian forces firing anything from the hospital

10 ground between August 1994 and November 1995, and I'll leave it, Your

11 Honour. I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. But I'm interested to find out from the

13 witness.

14 The artillery school of which you speak was established by whom?

15 And exactly where was it located?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The school was in the building of

17 the faculty of civil engineering and of architecture. It is one building

18 with two wings. My older daughter used to study architecture in that

19 building. I went there once in the summer of 1992 to pick up her

20 documents. They wouldn't let me in, however. There was a guard posted

21 there and the artillery school had already been established. The lady who

22 was in charge of the student office was escorted into the building. She

23 was allowed to go, but I was not. When going to work and passing by the

24 building every day, I could see both troops and guards there, of course

25 while I was in Sarajevo, in the part of it that was under Muslim control.

Page 7858

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So exactly where was it located in relation

2 to the hospital? Was it actually in the hospital or beside it?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't in the hospital. It

4 was 50 or 70 metres below the building I worked in. There were four

5 buildings in total. One was the faculty, one was the traffic institute,

6 one was the institute for testing construction material, and this last

7 building was some 20 metres away from the building where I worked. And

8 the rest was within the perimeter.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And this was established by the ABiH, the Bosnian

10 Muslims?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of BiH, there was no other

12 army there.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, Your Honour, the Prosecution is

15 prepared to concede that sometime in June or July 1992 there were two

16 tanks initially stored at the Faculty of Engineering and Architecture

17 grounds, which are about a hundred metres from the Kosevo Hospital

18 complex. That's the concession we're prepared to make. However, very

19 quickly one was rendered inoperable and the other was moved to Ciglane

20 tunnel. This is one of the points we raised in the adjudicated facts that

21 was ruled upon.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But do you concede that an artillery school was

23 established there?


25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 7859

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Robinson, my

2 learned friend said that they are ready to concede. It is a type of

3 testimony. I would expect the Prosecutor to ask the witness: How many

4 pieces were there. The learned friend said: We concede, we are ready to

5 accept, and we haven't heard anything concerning that from the witness. I

6 believe I have to object to that. The witness did not provide any answers

7 to my learned friend's question about tanks, whereas she said: We are

8 ready to accept that there were two tanks. I think it is an open-ended

9 question and out of place.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, maybe I'm not understanding Ms. Edgerton.

11 Ms. Edgerton, as I understand it, has not put any questions to the

12 witness.

13 Have you put questions to the witness about the existence of

14 tanks?

15 MS. EDGERTON: My question was specifically limited to 1994/1995

16 period, Your Honour --


18 MS. EDGERTON: -- but in light of the discussion that was going on

19 between Your Honour and my friend, I was prepared to make this concession

20 on behalf of the Prosecutor which might clarify matters and expedite

21 matters somewhat, especially since we're dealing with a pre-indictment

22 period by two years.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the concession is in relation to 1992. And

24 being a concession, I mean, she doesn't have to put questions to the

25 witness about that.

Page 7860

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, well, I mean, it's a matter for you to

3 decide how you react to it, Mr. Tapuskovic, how you react to the

4 concession.

5 MS. EDGERTON: May I move on, Your Honours?


7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I --

8 Q. Witness 61, just to get back on track, you personally -- and this

9 is going to involve a bit of repetition. You personally didn't see

10 whether, between August 1994 and November 1995, there were armed soldiers

11 in or around Kosevo Hospital. Is that correct? You personally didn't see

12 it?

13 A. For the third time, I was unable to see that. I was 12 kilometres

14 away at the time.

15 Q. Thank you. And that -- the same goes for whether Bosnian forces

16 fired anything from hospital grounds or facilities. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And the same goes for whether there were any tanks or other heavy

19 weapons located in the area of the hospital compound. Is that also

20 correct?

21 A. It was all close to the hospital grounds. Let us not mix two

22 different things. The tanks were very close to the perimeter of the

23 hospital, as I've been saying. But as to what was happening from January

24 1994 until 1995 and on to the end of the war, I don't know, I wasn't

25 there.

Page 7861

1 Q. And the same goes for whether or not there were actually any

2 operational military facilities in or around the hospital. And maybe for

3 the sake of clarity we could talk about the Kosevo Hospital compound.

4 A. If you're referring to the period from 1994 onwards, I don't know

5 that. But the school I mentioned which was in the immediate vicinity of

6 the hospital remained there until the end of the war, because the faculty

7 of architecture was located in the medical school and another faculty in

8 the School of Mechanical Engineering throughout the war.

9 Q. But is my understanding -- your assertion to that effect is based

10 entirely on second-hand knowledge, what you might have seen through the

11 media. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct, because I watched both television programmes,

13 the Serbian and the Bosnian, and also I received some newspapers from

14 UNPROFOR soldiers. I'm referring to newspapers from the Muslim territory.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, because you simply weren't there, you can't say

16 anything about the frequency of admissions of patients to Kosevo Hospital

17 with shelling or sniping injuries during this August 1994 to November 1995

18 period, can you?

19 A. I have no answer to that question. I wasn't there.

20 Q. Going back to the period of time that you were there, sir, you

21 mentioned in your evidence in chief about the proportion of civilian

22 wounded to the proportion of wounded people who might have been engaged in

23 military activity. Am I correct if I say that that proportion could

24 actually vary from hospital to hospital because of the very different

25 areas of the town they were located?

Page 7862

1 Did you not hear what I said, sir?

2 A. As far as I know from the information I had, I'm talking about the

3 hospital in Nedzarici and Dobrinja, I wasn't there but it was mostly

4 soldiers who were admitted there because the separation line was close.

5 As for Kosevo Hospital, about 70 to 80 per cent were soldiers and the

6 remainder was civilians. That is, of course, an average. There were days

7 when the situation was different.

8 Q. Actually, sir, in your testimony earlier today you said 50 -- with

9 regard to your hospital, you said 50 to 60 per cent of the wounded were

10 soldiers and 30 to 40 per cent civilians. Are you now saying that the

11 proportion that you had earlier set out is incorrect?

12 A. Well, 15 years have elapsed and it's difficult to be precise about

13 percentages. This is just an impression. Nobody kept track of this and

14 wrote reports about it, so it's hard to answer such a question. Was it 3

15 or 5 per cent more or less? Well, it's impossible to say.

16 Q. In fact, though, would you -- all right. Would you be able to say

17 this: Were shelling and sniping incidents, although the numbers varied,

18 constant until the time you were arrested? Were the -- let me rephrase it

19 to be clearer.

20 Were -- did you see injuries caused as a result of shelling or

21 sniping throughout the time you were there until you were arrested?

22 A. I saw that, although it's hard to tell what a sniper wound is

23 actually, because you can always tell whether somebody was wounded by

24 artillery or by shrapnel, but whether it was a sniper or not, you can't

25 say. And a person can actually have a chance of surviving and getting to

Page 7863

1 the surgeon if the sniper has made a mistake and not hit the target.

2 Snipers mostly aim at the head and the chest.

3 Q. What proportion --

4 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.

5 Q. Of the [Realtime transcript read in error "other than"] civilians,

6 were the greater proportion injured by sniping? Of the civilians. The

7 transcript reads "other than civilians".

8 Of the civilians, were the greater proportion injured by sniping,

9 as opposed to military -- as opposed to any other injury?

10 A. Explain to you, Madam, that a surgeon can never distinguish

11 between a sniper wound and other wounds. They can distinguish between

12 wounds caused by an explosive device and wounds caused by artillery

13 weapons. So we had explosive wounds and entry wounds. That was what we

14 saw as surgeons.

15 Q. Would you include -- when you say an "entry wound," are you using

16 that to describe a gun-shot wound?

17 A. Both. An explosive device can also have an entry wound or an

18 entry/exit wound, but they look different.

19 Q. They must look vastly different, don't they, sir?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. That's correct.

21 Q. What proportion of the civilian patients you treated were injured

22 by explosive wounds?

23 A. It's hard for me to be precise as to the percentages after a lapse

24 of 15 to 17 years, but perhaps after a half were gun-shot wounds and about

25 a half were explosive wounds. However, one has to understand that it was

Page 7864

1 different on different days. When there was fighting, many people arrived

2 in civilian clothes and said they were civilians, but some of them were

3 actually soldiers in civilian clothing. So it was very hard to

4 distinguish and no precise statistics were ever kept, let alone published.

5 Q. Sir, with respect, in Sarajevo during the conflict there were

6 really two types of injuries, weren't there, those caused by explosives

7 and those caused by shooting. Isn't that the case?

8 A. Yes, yes, I've already said that twice today.

9 Q. And all of the civilians that you treated with rare exception came

10 to your clinic victims of those kinds of injuries. Isn't that correct?

11 A. They had both kinds of wounds if you're talking about the kinds of

12 weapons that were used.

13 Q. Thank you. You actually -- you've treated civilians for injuries

14 as a result of shelling and sniping from as early as April 1992, haven't

15 you?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the third time

18 there is reference to sniping. The witness explained more than once that

19 there were gun-shot wounds and explosive wounds, and those could be

20 distinguished. My learned friend keeps referring to sniping, but the

21 witness said quite decidedly that he could only establish whether the

22 wound was a gun-shot or an explosive wound. For the third time my learned

23 friend is referring to sniping, although the witness explained that he

24 could not tell the difference between sniping and other kinds of gun-shot

25 wounds. He could only distinguish between gun-shot wounds and explosive

Page 7865

1 wounds.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's true, Ms. Edgerton. The witness has said

3 time and again that he can't distinguish sniping from shelling wound. So

4 it's not fair to put to him a question that he has treated civilians for

5 injuries as a result of shelling and sniping.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: He doesn't accept -- he has not been able to make

8 that distinction.

9 MS. EDGERTON: He did say, Your Honour, with respect that gun-shot

10 wounds and explosive wounds were vastly different. I think the

11 distinction is between sniping as opposed to any other kind of small-arms

12 fire. So perhaps I could use the word small-arms fire, injuries from

13 small-arms fire. Quite so.

14 Q. If I could go back to the question, my original question, sir,

15 you've treated injuries as a result of small-arms fire and shelling from

16 as early as April 1992, haven't you?

17 A. Correct, Madam, but I have to explain that a hand-grenade is also

18 a fire weapon, but there are only two kinds of war wounds. I am a

19 specialist in war wounds, that's my specialty. A surgeon can distinguish

20 only between a wound caused by a bullet and a wound caused by an

21 explosion, a shell, a hand-grenade, and so on. No other distinctions can

22 be made by a surgeon. Any other distinction made by a surgeon would be

23 medically untenable.

24 Q. Perhaps --

25 A. Excuse me. Hand-grenades are also weapons carried by infantry

Page 7866

1 soldiers. Each one has several hand-grenades with him.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we could have a document brought up on the

3 screen for the witness, please, 03381. I'm sorry, the B/C/S version of

4 the document maybe could be made a tiny bit smaller.

5 Q. Sir, can you see the document on the right-hand side of the screen

6 in front of you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Am I correct when I say this is a medical report on a --

9 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, I knew this doctor. He was

11 killed, unfortunately.


13 Q. This is a medical report on a woman hit by a shell, isn't it?

14 A. Correct. It was a piece of shrapnel.

15 Q. On April 5th of 1992. Doesn't, sir, the presence or the notation

16 that shrapnel is recovered from the injury denote an injury caused by a

17 mortar?

18 A. An explosive device, we don't know whether it was a mortar, a

19 bomb, a rocket, or something else, but it was certainly an explosive

20 device.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. We seem to be

22 missing a second page of this document.

23 [Microphone not activated]

24 Maybe I should turn my microphone on. Thank you. Could we not

25 broadcast this second page.

Page 7867

1 Q. Sir, under -- on this page 2 that appears in front of you under

2 the heading "Case History," which says -- do you not see where it says

3 that this woman was hit --

4 A. Yes, I see it.

5 Q. Do you not see where it says that this woman was hit by a shell?

6 A. Yes, it does. I said that even before I saw this.

7 Q. Does that document appear to you to be authentic?

8 A. Yes, certainly.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. EDGERTON: If I could have that entered as a Prosecution

11 exhibit, please, and it should probably be under seal.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why should that be so? Why, Ms. Edgerton?

13 MS. EDGERTON: In my confusion over what I thought was a missing

14 second page of the document, I forgot to ask the witness a question with

15 respect to the second page. Let me try again, Your Honours.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, we'll need a redaction and I'll

23 withdraw the document. Mystery solved.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let that be redacted.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have 03383, please.

Page 7868

1 Does this document have a second page? This document should also

2 not be broadcast.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This document is also signed, but

5 there is no indication it was signed by this doctor.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 MS. EDGERTON: We need another redaction, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another redaction.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MS. EDGERTON: And I'll withdraw the document and move on.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to move on, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on, yes.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, in your testimony in the Galic case and today and in your

18 statement that you gave to RS authorities some years ago, you said that

19 you had seen shells falling on the Kosevo Hospital on many occasions in

20 the period 1992 to 1994. Is that correct?

21 A. I saw three shells landing. I was at the clinic when two of them

22 landed, and the third landed in the upper right-hand corner of the clinic

23 while I was away, but I saw the hole it made.

24 Q. So you were actually in the hospital when three shells landed. Is

25 that correct?

Page 7869

1 A. I was there when two shells landed. The third fell while I was

2 absent, but I saw the place where it landed.

3 Q. Sir, are you saying that between the whole period of 1992 and

4 1994, the Kosevo Hospital was shelled on only three occasions?

5 A. I'm speaking of the traumatology ward, where I was working. The

6 Kosevo Hospital is a large complex of buildings, but we heard shells

7 landing nearby. And I'm certain that about ten shells landed on the

8 Kosevo Hospital. I know one fell on the eye clinic which is outside the

9 compound; one on the orthopaedic clinic; and two or three --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear which clinic.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you just repeat what you said, Doctor. And

12 two or three, the interpreter didn't get the last part of that.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was present at the traumatology

14 ward when two shells landed there. Fortunately one of them did not go

15 off, it didn't explode. And a third fell on the traumatological ward

16 while I was absent, but I saw the place where it landed. Another one

17 landed on the orthopaedic clinic which I saw for myself, not the shell

18 falling but the place where it fell. And I heard that one landed in the

19 corridor of the eye clinic but that was outside the Kosevo compound, and

20 on that occasion a friend of mine, Dr. Vladimir Deljanik was killed.


22 Q. How big is the Kosevo compound, sir, how many hectares of

23 territory does it cover?

24 A. Let me just list the buildings. It's a complex of 12 to 14

25 buildings, and it covers quite a large area but I can't tell you how many

Page 7870

1 square metres it covers.

2 Q. 12 to 14 different clinics?

3 A. There was also an administrative building, there was a special

4 building for the boiler room in the technical services, and the remainder

5 were clinics.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton, he said 12 to 14 buildings.


9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not 12 to 14 clinics.

10 MS. EDGERTON: I see, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, you've talked about Kosevo Hospital being hit. Would you

12 agree with me that you're of the understanding that it was Serb forces, in

13 particular the SRK, firing at Kosevo Hospital?

14 A. It's correct that the Serb forces were firing on the Kosevo

15 Hospital, but I know because my office at the clinic faced the faculty of

16 building construction, which I mentioned, and there were always two,

17 three, or four firings in the direction of Poljine where the Serb forces

18 were and then there was a response. I cannot say that the shell which

19 landed on the orthopaedic clinic was from that area because it was not

20 accessible from Poljine. So the shell must have come from some other

21 direction.

22 Q. So --

23 A. We -- when shelling started from the technical faculty or the

24 building construction faculty, we always took shelter in the upper part of

25 the building, which was a bit further away and which was safer. And we

Page 7871

1 would take the patients further away from that side facing the technical

2 faculty.

3 Q. Sir, I understand your testimony that you found -- you feel that

4 shelling of your clinic on at least two occasions may have been a response

5 to fire from the Bosnian forces. But are you asserting that all the

6 shelling on the Kosevo Hospital compound was responsive to fire from the

7 Bosnian forces?

8 A. I can't assert that about the time when I wasn't there, when I was

9 at home. But it was like that when I was there.

10 Q. What about the shell that fell on the orthopaedic --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, I just want to have that clarified.

12 So, Doctor, you're saying that when you were at the hospital all

13 the firing from the RSK forces was responsive, responsive, that is, to

14 firing from the ABiH?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say about every firing

16 because I wasn't at the hospital all the time, but the two shells that

17 landed while I was at the clinic were responsive.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.


20 Q. And you indicated that those were responsive to fire from what you

21 described as small tanks. Isn't that right?

22 A. First there was fire from small tanks, they were smaller in size;

23 and then about ten minutes, after two or three firings were made, there

24 would be a response towards the Muslim forces.

25 Q. And that response was with mortars as well as artillery, wasn't

Page 7872

1 it?

2 A. Madam, mortars are also artillery. Everything that fires

3 explosive devices is artillery. We don't know what was used. We only

4 know that there were shells.

5 Q. Would you agree that the shells were designed -- the shells used

6 against the hospital were designed not to eliminate tanks but to inflict

7 as much damage as possible?

8 A. Well, I don't know what use it would be for them to inflict damage

9 on patients who were not able to fight. They were firing at the tanks

10 that were close to the hospital, but because the hospital compound was

11 close by and in view of the distance involved, very small error would

12 result in a projectile landing on the hospital. Well, patients are

13 irrelevant as targets for an army since they are not able to fight. And

14 it's not worth wasting weapons, wasting ammunition, for any army on people

15 like that, on patients.

16 Q. So you would disagree when I would put to you that the fire that

17 was returned on the hospital was actually designed to inflict -- to kill,

18 actually, and injure as many people as possible? It was, sir, in fact, a

19 completely inappropriate weapon to return fire on a tank with.

20 A. You're not right. The fire was to silence the tank weapons around

21 the hospital, but since the place from where it was fired was quite away,

22 then a small mistake in targeting made the shells drop around the

23 hospital. If you are talking about shelling in general, the hospital

24 would not be very difficult to hit.

25 Q. But, sir, you've just said two times now: A small mistake in

Page 7873

1 targeting resulted in the hospital being hit. Doesn't that speak volumes

2 to you about the inappropriateness of that kind of -- the use of that kind

3 of weapon against a hospital facility?

4 A. Perhaps the intention was not for that to be used against the

5 hospital facilities. It was intended to destroy the tanks that were below

6 the hospital. It would have been very easy to hit the hospital, and any

7 weapon could be able to hit the buildings in the hospital complex.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Witness. Do you recall whether the

9 tanks were still present by the time the two shells were fired back? In

10 other words, had the two tanks that had fired the shots against Poljine,

11 were they still in the vicinity when the fire was returned or had they

12 already left?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tanks were there throughout the

14 time that I was at the hospital until the 1st of January, 1994. They were

15 always around the faculty buildings. They moved around, they fired

16 shells, and then would move out of the way quickly. But for as long as I

17 was there, they were constantly in that area.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you are saying that the tanks who fired the

19 shots which triggered the response from the RSK remained in the same

20 position by the time the fire was returned. They did not move around or

21 away; that's what you're saying?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, perhaps we didn't understand

23 each other or it was misinterpreted. The tanks were camouflaged. They

24 moved around in that area and they were always in that area. They would

25 just move around a little bit, as much as they could. It's quite a large

Page 7874

1 compound. There are large trees. It was like a large park where the

2 faculty buildings were, and the tanks stayed there throughout that whole

3 time. Of course they would move back 50, 100, 150 metres back or forward.

4 They would shield themselves behind buildings or behind the institute

5 for the -- for construction materials.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


8 Q. So, sir, if they move out of the way quickly after they fired 50,

9 100, or 150 metres, why then launch return fire with something like a

10 mortar, which is designed to injure as many people as possible?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness did not

13 say "mortars." Once he said that he was not able to establish what

14 weapons were used for firing. He never mentioned mortars. He was very

15 certain when he said that he could not know which weapons were involved,

16 but the Prosecutor is insisting on something that the witness did not

17 actually mention.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Also I doubt very much whether he can say why

19 fire was returned with something like a mortar.


21 Q. Witness, do you find, having been there at the time, did you find

22 the type of weapon that you saw used against the hospital to have been an

23 appropriate weapon in those circumstances?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, on the witness's behalf, you would have to

25 explain what you mean by "appropriate," Ms. Edgerton.

Page 7875


2 Q. Would a weapon of the type you saw used against the hospital, with

3 the damage it must have caused, in your mind have been an appropriate

4 weapon to use against a medical complex?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer the question yet.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness does not have to answer this

8 question. He's not in a position to give that kind of evidence.


10 Q. Witness, you actually have no way of knowing what the intention of

11 the SRK gunners were, do you?

12 A. [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is switched off.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness's microphone needs to be switched on.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the intentions, but

16 the fact is that shells did drop only around the edges of the hospitals or

17 at the buildings that were facing the faculty of engineering. And I think

18 the ear, nose, and throat clinic was hit once, that building. The other

19 buildings were not hit. So it was our impression that the hospital was

20 not deliberately targeted, and the shells that did hit the hospital in our

21 view were due to imprecision in targeting.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, could you tell us roughly the

23 distance between Poljine and the Kosevo Hospital?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never went to Poljine, but I

25 estimate that it's 3 to 4 kilometres as the crow flies. But I was never

Page 7876

1 at Poljine.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]


4 Q. Sir, just going back to your answer for His Honour Judge Robinson,

5 you said: "So it was our impression that the hospital was not

6 deliberately targeted."

7 Are you saying, sir, that the hospital -- are you describing your

8 impression throughout the period up until the date of your arrest or only

9 with respect to those two occasions you've given evidence about?

10 A. It refers to the whole period, because as I said before in answer

11 to a previous question, the hospital complex is large. It has 13 or 14

12 buildings. So if anybody was deliberately targeting the hospital, they

13 could not fail to hit something. The hits, as I mentioned, were on the

14 parts of the building that were facing the faculty complex.

15 Q. Well, first of all, sir, I thought that you had said earlier on in

16 your testimony that you couldn't give evidence with respect to -- no,

17 sorry, let me withdraw that. So your assertion is that from 1992 to 1994

18 Kosevo Hospital was not deliberately targeted?

19 A. That is my assertion and that is how I understood it.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell us -- you must tell us why. Tell us why you

21 have come to that conclusion, that it wasn't deliberately targeted.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's easy to get to a conclusion.

23 The hospital is a large complex of 12 to 14 buildings. Whoever wanted to

24 fire at the hospital would hit any of the buildings. All the hits during

25 the time that I was there were on buildings that were facing the civil

Page 7877

1 engineering faculty, and that is why we understood that to be missed

2 targeting or a mistake and not a deliberate targeting of the hospital. No

3 shell hit the clinic for infectious diseases, for skin diseases, or

4 internal medicines or the surgery clinic, all the clinics that were inside

5 of the complex.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, if I've understood you

7 correctly, the shells did not hit the hospital which, according to you,

8 was fairly easy to hit. Do you know whether shells might have hit the

9 tanks that were around the hospital?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that they did, but if they

11 didn't actually fire at them at least they could have prevented them from

12 moving around in the compound and from firing there. Of course they are

13 much more difficult to hit than a building.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.


16 Q. Would you be prepared to agree, Witness, that there was a

17 substantial risk in trying to return fire to eliminate those tanks, given

18 their location as you've testified, a risk of civilian casualties?

19 A. Fortunately, when I was there there were no civilian casualties at

20 the hospital, but that there was a certain risk, yes, that is true. I

21 cannot estimate the level of the risk because that would depend on the

22 persons who were firing and the extent of their experience.

23 Q. What buildings faced the civil engineering faculty?

24 A. I'm going to repeat that for the third time. It was the

25 traumatology clinic, that was the first and the closest; then it was the

Page 7878

1 building of the ear, nose, and throat clinic.

2 Q. And these were all buildings that faced in the direction north,

3 towards Poljine?

4 A. No, they were facing the civil engineering building, but they were

5 turned towards Poljine on their -- the side of the building, the facing --

6 the face -- the front of the building faced the civil engineering faculty.

7 Q. What about those portions of the compound, those buildings within

8 the compound, that faced the area of Trebevic, the opposite area? Were

9 they not targeted and hit between 1992 and 1994?

10 A. Trebevic is quite far, and as far as I know the side facing

11 Trebevic was hit only by one shell which hit the orthopaedic clinic.

12 There were no other shells that could have come from that direction

13 towards Kosevo, not when I was there at least.

14 Q. Now, during the period of time you were at Kosevo Hospital, did

15 you have electricity throughout?

16 A. No, no. There was electricity intermittently. Sometimes we used

17 the generators and sometime we didn't have either.

18 Q. Did you have running water?

19 A. At times the water was cut.

20 Q. Did you have sufficient medical supplies to meet your needs?

21 A. You can never have enough medical equipment in wartime, especially

22 surgical equipment. We had certain stocks made before the war, and then

23 the humanitarian started to arrive. So we did have enough, but it was

24 barely enough. We made some of it ourselves. I myself made a device to

25 immobilise bones from the outside.

Page 7879

1 Q. Did any staff member, any of your colleagues from 1992, 1994 -- to

2 1994 manifest any emotional effects of living and working under shelling

3 and gun-fire?

4 A. I don't know what the personal effects were because of those

5 factors, but I know that the Serb staff that worked there was abused.

6 They were called Chetniks --

7 Q. That wasn't my question --

8 A. -- But it was mostly done by the citizens and the soldiers, not by

9 the medical staff. Can you please repeat your question.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Just a minute. She mentioned his

13 name.

14 MS. EDGERTON: I did.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, yes. A redaction, please.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I think I've set a record today. Thank you.

17 Q. Now, if I could repeat my question, Witness. Did any staff member

18 manifest, over the course of the two years you remained on duty, any

19 emotional effects of living and working under shelling and gun-fire? My

20 question is specific to the conditions at the time caused by shelling and

21 gun-fire.

22 A. I had contacts with the staff at the traumatology clinic as well

23 as with my team of 12 to 16 surgeons and some 30 other medical staff.

24 There were no such effects amongst them. As for the other part of the

25 medical centre that employed between 15 to 1600 staff, I really would not

Page 7880

1 know the answer to that question.

2 Q. So you heard no one complain of being tired?

3 A. Everyone was tired.

4 Q. You heard no one complain of being cold?

5 A. Yes, in the winter I was cold as well as the others. That is

6 correct.

7 Q. You heard no one complain of being hungry?

8 A. There wasn't that much food, but there was always something.

9 There wasn't that much of a choice, but there was always something to eat

10 and it was distributed to the staff that worked at the clinic. Sometimes

11 I spent ten days there without going home, and I must say that each day I

12 received two meals and they were not very big and they were quite modest,

13 but they were meals.

14 Q. You heard no one complain of being depressed from having to come

15 to work, for example, tired, cold, or hungry?

16 A. I don't know if they were depressed, but I know that most people

17 were scared.

18 Q. When you say "most people," who are you referring to?

19 A. I'm referring to the medical staff and the wounded and the

20 patients who came to the hospital. These were the people that I had

21 contacts with.

22 Q. Did you hear anybody complain of difficulties they had making

23 their way to and from work in the day because of shelling or gun-fire?

24 A. There were such cases. I cannot tell you the frequency of that,

25 and I don't know about all the people who worked at the Kosevo clinic.

Page 7881

1 But I know that there were such cases amongst the people that I worked

2 with, the people in my team.

3 Q. Did you hear people complain because they had lost a friend or a

4 member of their family or a neighbour over the course of the recent past

5 to shelling or gun-fire?

6 A. There were such people, yes.

7 Q. So then what do you think they were scared of?

8 A. They lived in a town that was in war. There is no person in war

9 who does not believe that they could be wounded, killed. There is no war,

10 especially in the hilly terrain where Sarajevo was, where there were no

11 difficulties with heating and food. Of course I lived through two wars

12 and I have personal experience how that is.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MS. EDGERTON: Those are my questions, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

17 Mr. Tapuskovic, any re-examination?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

19 just a few questions along the same vein as the questions put by my

20 learned colleague.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] While -- when you moved to work at the hospital,

23 Witness T-61, on the other side- how shall I put it? - and now you spent

24 time there from the summer of 1994 until the end of the conflict. Now, I

25 would ask you, these hospitals, and then when you were out in the field as

Page 7882

1 well, did they always have sufficient electricity, water, medical

2 equipment?

3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was electricity --


6 MS. EDGERTON: -- With respect, that doesn't arise from my

7 cross-examination.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, does it arise?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But that is precisely what we are

10 doing here the entire time. In response to my learned friend's questions,

11 the witness explained. He spoke about the emotional stress, lack of food,

12 and I'm just continuing and asking the same thing. And that is when he

13 worked in this other hospital weren't the same problems prevalent there

14 relating to food, fear of the war, psychological problems, and

15 difficulties to actually reach your place of work, to get to work. And

16 this does arise from questions put by my learned friend. I didn't ask

17 these questions in my examination-in-chief. My colleague put the

18 questions, and this arises directly from her questions. And I'm trying to

19 see if it's possible that only one side suffered in the sense that my

20 learned friend put the questions and got the answers to that or if the

21 same situation in the experience of the witness was valid on the other

22 side. And I'm just asking him whether the same conditions prevailed on

23 the other side. Perhaps he can say that this wasn't so, that there was no

24 fear, no suffering, there was always electricity, cake.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 7883

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Tapuskovic, but do it quickly.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I have no further questions. You have heard what this is all

4 about. So I'm asking you: Is everything you said, that people suffered

5 because there was a war on, if you can just say very briefly what this

6 looked like. Because you were a person treating people on both sides at

7 approximately the same time. So if you can say very briefly, I have no

8 other questions.

9 A. As far as I know, on the Serb side there were better food

10 supplies, somewhat better. As for energy, it was the same. As for

11 heating oil, it was a bit harder on the Serb side. As for medical

12 equipment, it was much worse on the Serb side because that hospital was

13 established at the beginning of the war and it had no stocks of supplies

14 and humanitarian aid was distributed very unevenly, to the detriment of

15 the Serb side.

16 Q. And what you said about emotional stress and fear?

17 A. Well, there was no difference. There was a separation line.

18 There were troops on both sides, people were killed on both sides equally.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

20 Honours.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We are

22 grateful to you for coming to the Tribunal to testify. You may now leave.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness?

Page 7884

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can call him

2 straight away, but is it time for a break?

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have five, six minutes, so we'll start.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness is Witness T-27,

6 Borislav Kovacevic, who has no protective measures.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

12 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as you know, I am the Defence counsel

18 appearing for Dragomir Milosevic. We've already met and spoken. But

19 first I would like you to tell us your full name.

20 A. My name is Borislav Kovacevic.

21 Q. Thank you. You were born on the 11th of May, 1963?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In Ilijas, in Sarajevo?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You completed primary school in Ilijas?

Page 7885

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Secondary school of electrical engineering in Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Up to the beginning of the conflict, you were employed in a

5 company called Zrak and the plant you worked at was in Cevljanovici in

6 Srednje; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The headquarters of that company was in Sarajevo in Buca Potok.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Can you tell Their Honours something about the plant in

12 Cevljanovici Srednje that belonged to the Zrak enterprise, what did it

13 produce up to the beginning of the conflict?

14 A. It was a plant belonging to the Sarajevo Zrak company, and we

15 worked on cutting glass for various companies.

16 Q. When the conflict began, did this plant continue operating?

17 A. No. Every day we received material from the headquarters, from

18 Zrak in Sarajevo. When the conflict broke out, the material stopped

19 arriving so we were unable to work.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, should I continue

21 or are we going to have a break now?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: At 20 past.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

24 Q. Can you tell me, Witness, in order to save time, were you a member

25 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

Page 7886

1 A. Yes. I was a member of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps starting from

2 the first day of the conflict.

3 Q. And what was your role in that conflict?

4 A. Throughout the time, I was a fighter at the front line in the

5 trenches.

6 Q. What brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps did you belong to at

7 the beginning of the conflict?

8 A. At the beginning of the conflict, I was a member of the Ilijas

9 Brigade until November 1994.

10 Q. Who was the commander of the Ilijas Brigade up to that time you

11 mentioned, November 1994?

12 A. His name was Josipovic.

13 Q. And the battalion commander?

14 A. The battalion commander was first Luka Vukovic, who was killed;

15 and then there was Zeljko Micic, and he was also killed; and afterwards it

16 was Acim Vukovic, Luka's brother, until the end.

17 Q. You told us up to what time you were a member of the Ilijas

18 Brigade. Can you tell us again, and then what brigade did you become a

19 member of after that?

20 A. Well, as I said, I was in the Ilijas Brigade until November 1994,

21 and then as of November 1994 I was part of the 1st Romanija Brigade.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 7887

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Mr. Kovacevic, you said that you were in the 2nd Brigade. You

3 told us which one it was, and who was the commander, what did you say?

4 A. The commander of that brigade was Vlado Lizdek.

5 Q. And the battalion commander?

6 A. The battalion commander was Dragan Pajic [as interpreted].

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just a small clarification and I can

9 do this in cross-examination, but I understand that the brigade had more

10 than one battalion. So is the witness answering with respect to the

11 battalion he was part of or which battalion in particular, if that could

12 be clarified.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what particular battalion are you speaking

14 of, Witness?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st Battalion of the 1st

16 Romanija Brigade.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for not putting the

18 question myself.

19 Q. At the time Dragan Tupajic, the commander of that 1st Battalion,

20 how old was he?

21 A. I don't know exactly, but I think he was about 50.

22 Q. Was he an officer?

23 A. No. He worked on civilian protection. We didn't have any real

24 officers.

25 Q. When you say you didn't have any real officers, what exactly do

Page 7888

1 you mean?

2 A. I mean we didn't have trained officers who had been officers in

3 the JNA. It was simply up to us to be both soldiers, privates, and

4 officers.

5 Q. And that 1st Battalion of yours, what kind of people were in it,

6 where they were from?

7 A. They were local people, the inhabitants of the area.

8 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours as you said that from the

9 beginning of the conflict you were a fighter of the Sarajevo-Romanija

10 Corps. Do you remember initially what weapons were there -- first of all,

11 tell us what kind of weapons you, yourself, had because you said you were

12 constantly in the trenches.

13 A. We privates had only personal weapons, semi-automatic and

14 automatic rifles. We also had some artillery, a few mortars and

15 howitzers, and I used to see one tank.

16 Q. Do you remember when the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

17 when, or rather, when Dragomir Milosevic was appointed commander of the

18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm sorry again, but the witness has

21 given evidence that he was part of two brigades. And when my friend has

22 asked him about the weapons he had is he referring to, because this was in

23 response to a question of being a fighter of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,

24 is he speaking of weapons in the Ilijas Brigade or in the 1st Romanija

25 Brigade?

Page 7889

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you speaking of, Witness, the Ilijas

2 Brigade or the 1st Romanija Brigade?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman asked me about the

4 beginning of the war, what kind of weapons we had then. At the beginning

5 of the war until 1994, I was in the Ilijas Brigade. So now I'm referring

6 to the Ilijas Brigade.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Well, I'm asking you now to explain this. I think my learned

9 friend was a little bit hasty in his intervention. I'm asking you when

10 General Dragomir Milosevic became the commander, regardless of which

11 brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I'm asking you when he became the

12 commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Do you know that?

13 A. Yes. In the area where I was, in the trench, my combat area,

14 there was quite a lot of activity. I think it was early August.

15 Q. Well, first tell me when this was.

16 A. I think it was in early August 1994.

17 Q. At that point in time, what brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

18 were you in at the time of his arrival?

19 A. I was in the Ilijas Brigade.

20 Q. And you were transferred to the 1st Romanija Brigade, when did you

21 say?

22 A. In November 1994.

23 Q. And what happened immediately before General Dragomir Milosevic

24 took over command -- but before that, let me ask you the following. I

25 think I should ask you this first. You told us what the situation was

Page 7890

1 with heavy weapons at the beginning of the conflict. What happened with

2 reference to those weapons in 1994, do you know anything about that?

3 A. Well, in the first half of 1994, we were strengthened, we were

4 reinforced, replenished with heavy weapons --

5 Q. No, no, no. I'm asking you -- oh, all right. I won't interrupt

6 you.

7 A. In the first half of 1994, we received more heavy weapons which

8 arrived from Sarajevo in the -- from the part under our control.

9 Q. Well, then explain what happened to those heavy weapons in 1994.

10 A. In 1994, starting in March I think, heavy weapons began to be

11 withdrawn from the part of Sarajevo under our control. So in the Nisic

12 plateau a lot of these weapons arrived. I saw about five tanks, quite a

13 lot of artillery, and I heard from my comrades that a part of those

14 weapons were sent off to Trnovo.

15 Q. Thank you. Now tell me, just before General Dragomir Milosevic

16 took over command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, did something happen in

17 late August/early September but before his arrival?

18 A. Yes. Well, it was actually at the end of July. Throughout July

19 there were attacks on our positions on the Nisici plateau and there was an

20 offensive on the villages of the Vares municipality which gravitated

21 towards Ilijas. In that offensive every day one of our villages fell. We

22 didn't have enough fighters. My brother-in-law was killed, my sister was

23 left a widow with two small children, he was buried there. But on the 2nd

24 of August all the other villages fell, his grave was there, and with the

25 help of this strengthened artillery and because we were motivated, we

Page 7891

1 stopped the attacks on the Nisici plateau, and that was about that time

2 that the general was appointed corps commander. During that fighting my

3 town, Ilijas, was shelled night and day. There were many casualties. I

4 have to mention two victims, I don't want to miss that. The first was a

5 6-year-old boy, his father was called Boban and his mother Andjelina the

6 last name was Antunovic and a 14-year-old girl, the daughter of friends

7 of mine Zdravko and Miloj Kabudrov [phoen]. There were other casualties

8 but I feel I have to mention those two.

9 Q. After General Milosevic's arrival, did the situation stabilise?

10 A. Yes, in mid-August, the situation stabilised. We strengthened our

11 positions, and the fighters whose villages had previously fallen, they

12 stayed with us at Vares with a certain amount of artillery. We managed to

13 stop those attacks, and for a while things were quiet.

14 Q. Were there any refugees who came to your area?

15 A. Yes, we took them in and directed them towards Vogosca and Ilijas.

16 There were many wounded who were then forwarded to Pale and Sokolac.

17 Q. In the months that followed, what was the situation like after

18 mid-August?

19 A. In the second half of August and in September and October, things

20 were quite calm. There were no significant operations underway. However,

21 in end October and early November, there was a new attack on our

22 positions. It was terrible. There were many soldiers of theirs there and

23 artillery, many casualties on our side. Pedjo Arsic was killed then, also

24 Vladimir Sepur [phoen], Slavisa Kosarac was seriously injured. There were

25 many wounded and killed, but we managed to stop those attacks although

Page 7892

1 they attacked non-stop for 10 to 15 days.

2 Q. Did you get any information about any movements of the 1st Corps

3 of the ABiH? Did you have any information on that in October and November

4 1994?

5 A. Yes. Our observers informed us that they were regrouping and that

6 there were many, and such attacks were actually expected.

7 Q. Did you know where they were coming from?

8 A. We were told by the people from Ilidza and Sarajevo that many

9 fighters left Sarajevo through the tunnel, and it was expected that they

10 would be included in the very attacks on my positions.

11 Q. Do you know whether there was an agreement reached at a certain

12 point between the belligerent parties and when?

13 A. Yes. We had the media at our disposal and our command informed us

14 about it in December 1994, they said there was an agreement in place, a

15 cease-fire.

16 Q. Can you tell Their Honours how long was the agreement in place, at

17 least at your positions?

18 A. Yes. The whole winter of 1994 and 1995, until spring. All the

19 way until early June actually, things were quiet.

20 Q. What happened in June?

21 A. In early June 1995, again we were informed by our superior command

22 that strong enemy forces were regrouping and that a number of them left

23 Sarajevo. An attack was expected. We sort of relaxed for the past five

24 months or so, and we were also hoping for a lasting cease-fire. However,

25 on the 15th of June, 1995, early in the morning, a lightning struck us.

Page 7893

1 ABiH forces with strengthened artillery attacked against all positions at

2 the Nisici plateau. We were a bit taken aback and suffered great losses.

3 They managed to take over control of the Semizovac-Srednje road which was

4 the only road to communicate with Ilijas and no ambulance could pass

5 through to Sokolac. People were dying in the field. However, our morale

6 was high and with a lot of artillery support we managed to regain that

7 territory the very same day in the afternoon. We returned to the trenches

8 and regained control of the road.

9 Q. You said that you were struck as if by a lightning and that there

10 were severe actions and operations. What did you have in mind in

11 particular? What did they use?

12 A. First of all, they had a lot of personnel. The war has been

13 ongoing for four years by that time, but all of a sudden there were ten to

14 one. There was a lot of shelling as well. Many shells landed on the

15 front lines but also overshot, landing in the rear on civilians. On the

16 16th they attacked again, even stronger since I guess they became

17 frustrated because they lost the road which they managed to gain control

18 of at a certain point. Many people died like the Djurovic family, Goran

19 Rajic, someone named Ladanac [phoen] was severely injured as well as Luka

20 Rajnic [phoen], many, many people, many names.

21 Q. Thank you. Concerning the directions they attacked on the 15th

22 and the 16th, and you mentioned the Semizovac-Srednje road, besides

23 military losses were there any other casualties, particularly civilian?

24 A. I just wanted to mention that. On the 16th the attacks were

25 stronger and the shells cut off our telephone communication lines. There

Page 7894

1 was no briefing that day, and we couldn't move anywhere from our trenches.

2 Behind our backs there were our parents and our children. We simply

3 could not leave. We had to defend them. On the 17th we were told that in

4 Srednje, in my village, three people were killed between the 16th and the

5 17th. They were buried there. One of them was an ambulance driver, then

6 Sejanovic Caca [phoen] and Nedeljko Rasovic, both elderly. Many, many

7 victims, civilians.

8 Q. There's no reason for me to ask many more questions. I just

9 wanted to show you two documents. One was shown by another witness who

10 came from the same area, it is DD002840. It is D282.

11 Witness, have a look at the document. The things you said about

12 the Srednje-Semizovac line and the events you mentioned, does that tally

13 to what is mentioned in the document? Does it correspond to the events

14 of those days? I had already shown this document to another witness.

15 Please look at the heading, the date, and the second paragraph. Please

16 read it out aloud.

17 A. "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, BH Army, 1st Corps command,

18 forward command post - Igman.

19 "Military secret strictly confidential 01/1-222, Igman, 15 June,

20 1995, time: 1400 hours.

21 "Report: To the command" --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "To," interpreter's correction, "The

24 3rd Corps forces with their 126th Brigade and the 134th Mountain Brigades,

25 the 16th Battalion liberated on their axis of attack, the whole feature of

Page 7895

1 Ravni Nabozic and Lipa, that is elevation 701, placing the

2 Srednje-Semizovac communication and the Semizovac intersection under their

3 full control."

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. Which corps joined the 1st corps, the 16th Division,

6 as stated?

7 A. It says here it was the 3rd Corps.

8 Q. Does it have anything to do with the fact you mentioned, which was

9 that there were many more pieces they used in their attacks and that you

10 were outnumbered ten to one? Is that -- was the situation like the one

11 described in the document?

12 A. Yes, that is exactly the thing.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to show

14 the witness another document which has to do with certain events in the

15 fall of 1994. I omitted that a few minutes ago, and I will thus conclude

16 my examination. The document is DD --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead. I saw Mr. Sachdeva rise.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, it's fine for the moment. Thank

19 you.


21 I think you were about to do something in relation to a document.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There was an intervention from

23 the accused, but however this document already has been admitted as D282.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7896

1 Q. The second document DD002466, Witness, a few moments ago you

2 described the activities in 1994. I wanted to show you this document.

3 Can you tell me whether it corresponds to the things happening in the

4 field in the fall of 1994. As you can see here, what is the date of the

5 document?

6 A. "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Supreme Command staff of the

7 armed forces, command post Kakanj, strictly confidential "--

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please read slowly.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "02-1/1381-1, Kakanj, 7 November

10 1994." That's it.

11 "Request and suggestion for organising" --

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. Let us cut things short. Look at item 1, please. There are some

14 locations mentioned. Please read those to yourself and tell us whether

15 the activities you mentioned a little while ago when asked about the

16 events of the fall of 1994, do these locations have anything to do with

17 such combat activities?

18 A. Yes. These are the very locations at the Nisici plateau, the

19 hills of Jasen and Polom, that's where the operations were and this is

20 where the people I mentioned were killed.

21 Q. Please read the document to the end, starting

22 with: "Analysing ..." To the end.

23 A. "Analysing your success and the enemy's current situation, I

24 propose that you carry out a regrouping of forces and equipment in order

25 to carry out the final attacks for the liberation of the Nisici plateau on

Page 7897

1 the following axes:

2 "Donji Potok - Gornji Ivancici; Stomorine - Donji Ivancici -

3 Gradina (trig point 1121) Ninici - Borak; Konjsko (trig point 1022, trig

4 point 1032) Dusevine.

5 "I congratulate all participants on successes in operations up to

6 now and wish you much success in further work."

7 Below we have command. I can't see who signed it.

8 Q. Have a look. I believe one can see it.

9 A. Yes, Brigadier-General Enver Hadzihasanovic, yes.

10 Q. The things you read out from the document, does it correspond to

11 the events at the time, this being October, November, and the end of that

12 year?

13 A. Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead. Go ahead.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness

17 just confirmed that it is as stated in the document, that there was

18 fighting at those positions and he also mentioned certain further actions

19 mentioned in the document as well as the congratulations for the previous

20 successes mentioned, I would like to tender this document as evidence

21 concerning the activities of the fall in 1994 which were offensive actions

22 on the part of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as clearly visible from the

23 document.


25 THE REGISTRAR: As D290, Your Honours.

Page 7898

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, to conclude I wanted to ask you this. You were educated

3 in Sarajevo. You lived in Sarajevo. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Concerning the geographical layout, which are the dominant

6 features or elevations concerning Ilidza, Vogosca, the centre of Sarajevo,

7 Novo Sarajevo, Nedzarici, Rajlovac? Can you tell us about those, since I

8 believe you were able to notice that while living in Sarajevo.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: I had hesitated, but since my learned friend has

12 now said that: "Since you were able to notice that while living in

13 Sarajevo," I understand that the witness lived in Ilijas throughout his

14 life and also during the war. And Ilijas, I understand, is some 20

15 kilometres from Sarajevo. So it may be that he visited Sarajevo and saw

16 one, but to suggest that because he lived there he should know about these

17 specific locations --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, where did you live, Witness? Did you live

19 in Sarajevo or in Ilijas or in both places?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lived in the municipality of

21 Ilijas and I went to school in Sarajevo. It's my town. I'm

22 well-acquainted with Sarajevo.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. First of all, Witness, can you please tell us to which town does

Page 7899

1 Ilijas belong?

2 A. Ilijas is part of Sarajevo.

3 Q. And you never lived anywhere else, other than in Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And finally, can you answer this question, in view of where you

6 lived, this question relating to the dominant features in reference to all

7 of these places that I mentioned so that I don't have to mention them

8 again.

9 A. Yes. Mojmilo, Zuc, Hum, Igman, Trebevic, that would be that.

10 Q. Can you now please tell us which forces at that time were at those

11 positions in terms of the features, if you know, or if you know the

12 positions of the -- or if this is something that you know from being in

13 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

14 A. From what I know, everything except Trebevic was held by the

15 forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovacevic. My name is Manoj Sachdeva, and I'm

22 a lawyer for the Prosecution. I'm going to ask you a few questions today.

23 Can I just get an understanding from you. You -- while you were with

24 the Ilijas Brigade, you served at Nisici plateau. Is that right?

25 A. Yes. The whole road from Nisici to Semizovac, all of that

Page 7900

1 constitutes the Nisici plateau, and that's where I was.

2 Q. And roughly speaking, from the area of, let's say, Skenderija, in

3 the centre of Sarajevo, the place where you served was roughly 20, 20

4 kilometres towards the north-west. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And which -- well, let me ask you this. How many battalions did

7 the Ilijas Brigade consist of?

8 A. I don't know exactly, three or four I think but I'm not sure.

9 Q. And the battalion that you mentioned earlier, I think it was the

10 1st, the 1st Battalion, was that the battalion you were part of?

11 A. Yes, the Srednje Battalion, I was a member of that.

12 Q. And that battalion, how many companies did it have?

13 A. Three companies.

14 Q. And I take it that each company had roughly 100 men. Is that a

15 correct statement?

16 A. 80 men in my company and I think approximately the -- that number

17 in the other two companies, but I'm not quite sure.

18 Q. And in the company that you were part of, were you -- you told the

19 Court that you were a soldier, an infantry person on the -- in the

20 trenches. I take it you didn't have any role within the company or were

21 you -- for example, you weren't the company commander, were you?

22 A. No, I was a fighter in the trenches throughout the whole time.

23 Q. And you said that you were -- you talked about the weapons. I

24 think you were speaking with respect to the brigade, but when you were

25 talking about the semi-automatic and automatic rifles and a few mortars, I

Page 7901

1 think you also mentioned a howitzer and a tank. Were those weapons part

2 of your company and your battalion, or were you speaking with respect to

3 the brigade?

4 A. It belonged to the Nisici plateau. Perhaps several battalions

5 used it at the time, but that's about how many there were at the time.

6 Q. And in your company -- well, you were issued with semi-automatic

7 and automatic rifles. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I take it that that would be the same for your colleagues

10 within your company?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. In your company did you also have mortars?

13 A. Not in the company. Like I said, it didn't just belong to my

14 company. The artillery section covered that whole area.

15 Q. So I take it that if your company, if it was required -- if the

16 use of mortars and artillery were required, they would have been able to

17 draw upon artillery support. Is that right?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And the mortars, just to ask you about the mortars. I take it you

20 had 120-millimetre mortars, 82-millimetre mortars, and 60-millimetre

21 mortars?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And you said that the commander of the brigade was Dragan

24 Josipovic. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7902

1 Q. And you left the brigade in November 1994?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was there not somebody called Milos Delic, who was also the

4 brigade commander at some point in time?

5 A. Yes, they would change as time went by. Josipovic moved to the

6 Sarajevo 3rd, I think, and I don't know about Milos Delic -- well, it

7 wasn't really that important to me.

8 Q. But I just want to establish that the time -- that during the time

9 you were within the Ilijas Brigade, Dragan Josipovic was your -- was the

10 brigade commander. Is that right?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Did you ever meet with Dragan Josipovic?

13 A. I would see him. Sometimes he would tour the trenches where we

14 were.

15 Q. Now, you earlier gave evidence about the -- and I'm sorry that I'm

16 jumping a bit, but I just want to ask you this question. You were talking

17 about the 15th of June, 1995. Do you remember that? And I know I'm

18 moving on to your time in the 1st Romanija Brigade and I'm going to ask

19 you some questions about that later, but I just wanted to ask you this

20 question. You remember giving evidence about the 15th of June, 1995. You

21 talked about lightning being struck against you. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I think you said that -- that you were -- at least in military

24 terms, you were outnumbered by ten to one.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7903

1 Q. And do I understand it correctly that the next day or pretty soon

2 after the attack by the ABiH you -- the SRK, you managed to regain control

3 of that -- of the Srednje road. Is that right?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And you said that the morale was high and with a lot of artillery

6 support, this is how you said you managed to regain the territory. I just

7 wanted to ask you what kind of artillery support were you able to draw

8 upon in regaining control?

9 A. The artillery was the howitzers, tanks, and mortars. I didn't say

10 that the morale was high. We motivated. There was nowhere for us to go.

11 We had our children behind us, and as far as we were concerned we just had

12 to survive.

13 Q. Well, in respect to the morale I'm just reading what you -- what

14 you have said, but never mind. You talked about howitzers, mortars,

15 tanks. How many mortars are we speaking about and what types of mortars?

16 A. I said that I was in the trenches the whole time. I wasn't where

17 the artillery was. The mortars were 120-millimetres and 80-millimetres.

18 The tanks were old. I don't know what their markings were, but there were

19 plenty of artillery weapons. I don't know exactly which ones.

20 Q. Yes. So I take it that with the plenty of artillery weapons that

21 you had, in spite of the fact that you were outnumbered by ten to one, the

22 SRK still managed to gain the military upper hand. Isn't that right?

23 A. We simply had to defend ourselves. I don't know if we were in the

24 position of having the upper hand. We were carrying defensive actions,

25 not offensive actions.

Page 7904

1 Q. Well, in that combat activity on the 15th of June when you were

2 outnumbered by ten to one, it's right, is it not, that the SRK managed to

3 regain control of that strategic road. That's right, isn't it?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Now, while you were with the Ilijas Brigade -- well, let me ask

6 you this. Do you know of a place called Breza?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And at the time that you were with the Ilijas Brigade, I take it

9 that Breza was controlled -- well, it was within the territory of the Army

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And can I put it this way, that Breza was, let us say, part of

13 your military -- I won't say your military area of responsibility because

14 I'm obviously speaking about an area that is not in SRK control. But it

15 was important for your brigade to -- to understand what military movements

16 there might have been in Breza and the other surrounding municipalities.

17 Is that right?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And, in fact, during these combat activities, the forces within

20 the Ilijas Brigade would -- would trade shots or would fire on to Breza.

21 Isn't that right?

22 A. No. The positions of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were

23 precisely these ones, on the boundary between Breza and Ilijas, and it's

24 possible that there was -- yes, there was firing along the line of

25 separation, but there were more combat actions --

Page 7905

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last part

2 of what the witness said.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask you to repeat the last part of

4 what you said because the interpreter didn't understand it.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The line of separation between

6 Ilijas and Breza was more towards the Ilijas municipality territory. So

7 there was no need to hit the Breza municipality area except for what was

8 on the line of separation.


10 Q. There may have been no need in your -- that's your evidence, but

11 can I suggest to you that on occasion the town of Breza was fired upon --

12 was fired upon by soldiers within the Ilijas Brigade. Do you accept that

13 possibility?

14 A. If there was a military target involved, I do accept that, but

15 there was no deliberate firing, that's for sure.

16 Q. So when you say if there was a military target involved, so in

17 other words there could have been, for example, a tank -- hypothetically

18 there could have been a tank in the town of Breza, and that would -- that

19 would then result in fire from the SRK into the town of Breza. Is that

20 what you're saying?

21 A. If artillery weapons are pin-pointed, you would not need the whole

22 of the SRK to shell Breza. If somebody fired from that area, though, it

23 was logical to respond to such fire.

24 Q. Yes. I didn't mean the whole of the SRK, and I'm sorry for my

25 imprecise question. Of course I refer to the forces in the Ilijas

Page 7906

1 Brigade.

2 Let me ask you this: It was the case that the battalion

3 commanders, and indeed the brigade commanders, would hand down certain

4 targets -- target lists to their soldiers, their subordinates. Is that

5 right? In other words, targets -- targets to be engaged would be

6 communicated to those persons who were to engage targets from the command?

7 A. Artillery perhaps, yes, but I was a fighter and my target was

8 clear: An enemy in front of you within the range of my rifle.

9 Q. Yes, I understand that. So with respect to artillery, if there

10 were targets to be engaged by tanks or by howitzers and also by mortars,

11 those targets would be communicated from -- from the brigade commander

12 down to his subordinates. Do I have a correct understanding?

13 A. Yes. If a target was noted, then that would then come from the

14 command. I mean, I wasn't an artillery man, but I assume that that's how

15 it was.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may we move into private session,

17 please.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

19 [Private session]

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23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

25 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.