Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8395

1 Tuesday, 17 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

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22 [Open session]

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The next witness is a witness

Page 8398

1 with no protective measures. It's Witness T-6, Mr. Vlajko Bozic.

2 [The witness entered court]


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

9 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the blind is still

11 down.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please see to it that the blind is drawn up.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if I may, the blind needs to remain

14 down until the transcript pages scroll through because there remains

15 private information on the transcript which is viewable from the public

16 gallery.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We have been put in our place.

18 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, can you please tell the Judges your

20 first and last name?

21 A. My name is Vlajko Bozic.

22 Q. I have already warned you, even before you entered the courtroom,

23 not to answer a single question even if it's a question of just a few

24 words until the text on the monitor stops.

25 You were born on the 30th of October, 1958; is that correct?

Page 8399

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were born in Sokolac in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You attended elementary school and high school for catering in

5 Sarajevo; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You served your military term of duty in the JNA in 1985, and you

8 had the rank of a lieutenant in reserve?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When the conflict broke out, you were a representative of the

11 Prosvjeta publishing house from Belgrade in Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you lived in your family house in the settlement of Jagomir,

14 the municipality of Centar, in Sarajevo, just below Grdonj hill?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now I'm going to put a question to you right at the beginning.

17 You were a member of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As a member of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, as fighter of the

20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, or perhaps you had some sort of a command duty,

21 throughout the war you were in Jagomir below Grdonj, close to the

22 so-called Spicasta Stijena?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But at the beginning I still need to ask you a few things or put

25 questions to you that have to do with your joining the Sarajevo-Romanija

Page 8400

1 Corps, and for that reason I would like to ask you to explain to the Court

2 first what happened in Sarajevo in late 1991 and early 1992.

3 A. In late 1991 or in early 1992, the situation in Sarajevo was very

4 tense in terms of interethnic relations, and all of this resulted in a war

5 and the break-up of the former Yugoslavia. The war began in Slovenia,

6 Croatia. Everybody was expecting for something to happen in Bosnia as

7 well.

8 Q. Can you please go more slowly? Otherwise, most of what you say

9 will not be transcribed.

10 A. I personally didn't think that the conflict in Bosnia would be of

11 a large scale, because all sensible people, having seen what happened in

12 Slovenia and Croatia, would not allow this to happen in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina as well. Unfortunately, what happened, happened.

14 Q. And what happened? How long did you go to work?

15 A. I went to work until the 6th of April, 1992.

16 Q. What happened on the 6th of April, 1992?

17 A. On the 6th of April, 1992, I received telephone information from

18 the Territorial Defence city headquarters of the municipality of Centar to

19 report to the post office because I did have a war assignment as a

20 commander of the military police, and the place where we were supposed to

21 assemble was called Velesici.

22 I got to the building of the TO, and that's where I saw some

23 members of the Green Berets with weapons who were securing the building,

24 which wasn't making sense to me, because I knew that the Green Berets were

25 formed by the Party for Democratic Action to protect themselves, and in

Page 8401

1 exactly what way became obvious later during the war.

2 When I entered the building, I was supposed to report to a room on

3 the second floor. In front of the door I saw some 10 people whom I

4 recognised who were waiting to report just like I did, and I saw some

5 active officers on the -- in the corridor, active-duty officers, and I

6 recognised that by their uniform. And I recognised someone who at the

7 time was -- had the rank of a captain or something, Hajnandzic [phoen].

8 And it wasn't logical to me that there would be so many active-duty

9 officers in the Territorial Defence headquarters.

10 Q. You mentioned a captain or Major Hajnandzic. Later on during the

11 war, was he promoted to a high office in the military during the war later

12 on?

13 A. I don't know whether he got the rank of general during the war or

14 after the war. I don't know. But I know that on the 31st of July, 1992,

15 he signed the decision or the order to launch an attack in Gromila and

16 Poljine and Bitanja [phoen] area which was the Defence area manned by the

17 battalion where I was. And that's when we actually captured those

18 documents. I don't know where those documents are now, but perhaps

19 measures could be taken to find those documents.

20 Q. And what was he at the end the war in the 1st Corps of the BH

21 army? What post did he hold?

22 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure. I can't tell you exactly what

23 post he had there.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could speed things up relating to those

25 general matters? What happened later when you arrived there? What did

Page 8402

1 you do?

2 A. Well, I just turned around and went back home, because I saw that

3 the situation was not as it should have been. On that day in the

4 afternoon, the Green Berets carried out an attack from the Grdonj area to

5 the village of Nikolici, and the first casualty fell on that day Nedeljko

6 Dragas, he was the father of my sister-in-law, my brother's wife. So this

7 is when the war started for us who lived there in that area.

8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, what did you do, and what did the other

9 people from this area do? How did you get weapons?

10 A. Well, at the beginning we had whatever weapons people owned. Some

11 pistols, some hunting rifles. There were some people who bought weapons.

12 There was a lively trade in -- a lively smuggling trade in weapons. And

13 we got some weapons when the people, the villagers -- it was not an

14 organised action of any sort. When we went into the depots, military

15 depots in the Faletici barracks and got some of the weapons from there. I

16 think it was sometime in late April, but I'm not quite sure. I can't

17 really tell you when it was.

18 Q. It was just the people from this area where you lived or was there

19 somebody else too?

20 A. Well, Muslims took some of those weapons. I can't really tell you

21 how much went to each party.

22 Q. Thank you. What happened at that time in the police force?

23 A. Well, a conflict broke out or, rather, the police got divided into

24 the Muslim or Bosniak and Serbian police, so that we got some of the

25 weapons from the reserve force of the police of Serb ethnic background who

Page 8403

1 were members or who -- rather, who were in service.

2 Q. Thank you. And when did the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps or the

3 Republika Srpska army became -- become operational? When did you join

4 this corps?

5 A. As far as I know, the Republika Srpska army started functioning in

6 May or, rather, in June 1992. As for the exact date for the inception of

7 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I cannot really tell you that. And as for my

8 unit, the unit where I was, at first it was an independent detachment. In

9 other words, we did not rely on anyone for support. We relied only on

10 ourselves.

11 Q. Thank you. When you say that you relied only on yourselves, what

12 are you trying to tell us?

13 A. I'm trying to tell you that we did not have any active-duty

14 officers from the Yugoslav People's Army in our ranks. There were several

15 of us who were reserve officers. And we didn't have anything to do with

16 the army at that time.

17 Q. Could you please just tell us very briefly what brigade you

18 belonged to or whether you held any posts. If you can, just very briefly,

19 so that the Chamber is able to tell what unit you were in in

20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

21 A. I was in the Kosevo Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. After

22 I was wounded in 1992, that was on the 8th of June, I spent 45 days in the

23 hospital. And when I left hospital as one of the two reserve officers, I

24 was appointed the commander of the 2nd Battalion in the Kosevo Brigade.

25 And I held that post until April 1994.

Page 8404

1 Q. And thereafter?

2 A. This was when reorganisation took place, and three brigades,

3 Kosevo, Vogosca, and Rajlovac were reorganised to establish a single

4 brigade, the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, and my battalion thus became the 1st

5 Battalion of the Sarajevo Brigade.

6 Q. What did you do in that battalion? What duty did you perform

7 there?

8 A. In the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, I was one of the assistants to the

9 Chief of Staff of Operations -- for operations and training, but I spent

10 most of my time in the field. And since I was from the Kosevo Brigade, I

11 had come from the Kosevo Brigade, I mostly covered that area up there.

12 Q. When you say training, what does that mean?

13 A. When you say training, it means some of the training. It covers

14 some of the training of the fighters that we carried out during the

15 cease-fire periods or at those times when there weren't so many

16 engagements, combat engagements.

17 Q. And as for this training, what kind of military tasks did it

18 encompass?

19 A. Well, once the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade was set up training started,

20 and we worked with squads and platoons. We did training for defence

21 activities for squads and platoons, and also we did training for the

22 removal of heavy weapons to the area 20 kilometres away from the city as

23 we obliged to according to the agreement. So we only did tactical defence

24 activities. That's what we focused on.

25 Q. And did you ever have any training for sniping activities?

Page 8405

1 A. No.

2 Q. I will show you a document, and I will then complete my

3 examination about this topic. That would be Prosecution Exhibit P683.

4 Could you please look at this document, and could you focus on who

5 issued this document and item 1, what this order is all about.

6 A. It was issued by the command of the SRK on the 19th of January,

7 1995. It's an order. Under item 1: "On the 23rd of January, 1995,

8 transfer by 1000 hours the sniper instructors to the sector of the

9 Jahorina barracks as follows."

10 Q. Well, we're not going to read all this. It's been before this

11 Chamber several times. Under item 3, could you please see what does it

12 say?

13 A. "I appoint Captain Zoran Terzic and Lieutenant Vlajko Bozic to

14 carry out the instruction and Major Stevan Veljovic to organise and

15 oversee the completion of the course."

16 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Judges, in light of this

17 date, 19th of January, 1995, what was going on at the separation lines at

18 that time?

19 A. Well, at that time from the 1st of January, 1995, the cease-fire

20 was signed. I know that in this month a cease-fire was complied with

21 because it was in winter and there was a lot of snow.

22 Q. Thank you. Having told us this, that there was a lot of snow at

23 that time, it says here that you were appointed to carry out the sniper

24 instruction. Did you at all leave your post in light of what you told us

25 and in light of where Jahorina is in relation to the position where you

Page 8406

1 were?

2 A. First of all, this is the first time that I see this order. And

3 secondly, Mount Jahorina is a mountain, and in January and all the way up

4 until March you can have up to two metres of snow. So I think that it is

5 impossible to carry out any training of this kind in those conditions.

6 Q. Could you please look at the last item here, 4. Could you please

7 read it, and then that would be it with this document.

8 A. "The sniper instructors shall take with them their personal

9 weapons, semi-automatic sniper rifles M-76, PASP, probably Rules of

10 Service manual, equipment one b/k combat set of ammunition and sleeping

11 bags. Adapt equipment to winter conditions on the mountain."

12 Q. Did you have a sniper rifle at all?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you need any sniper rifles on those positions there?

15 A. Well, we didn't need any sniper rifles on our positions, and we

16 didn't have any.

17 Q. And could you please tell us what are sniper rifles used for in

18 any military?

19 A. Well, sniper rifles in wartime in a military should be used to

20 destroy military targets that are of great importance, major targets.

21 Q. Did you ever get any oral or written order to target civilians?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I have a question to the witness.

25 Mr. Witness, you are telling us that you have never seen this

Page 8407

1 order. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I only see the text in part.

4 Are we in private session?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

6 [Private session]

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Page 8408

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, the positions where you were, and now we will deal with

21 that in more detail to explain to the Judges what I believe we need to

22 explain, what weapons were available at the positions where you were to

23 your unit?

24 A. Other than the infantry weapons, my unit didn't have any other

25 weapons.

Page 8409

1 Q. And what infantry weapons are we talking about here?

2 A. The automatic rifles, as well as, mortars of 82 millimetres.

3 Q. And when you're talking about the weapons, you're talking about

4 your Sarajevo-Romanjia Brigade?

5 A. I'm talking about my brigade.

6 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about the positions around Grdonj.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd just like to get a

9 clarification. Is the witness talking about his unit, in other words, his

10 battalion, or the brigade, in other words, the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade,

11 because the initial question was with respect to his unit.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what are you talking about, Witness? Witness.

13 Witness, what are you talking about? Is it your unit or your brigade?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about my unit.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. We're going to go back to that. I would like to move

17 directly to the problem. First let me ask you, which lines were you

18 positioned at most frequently?

19 A. I most often was at Mrkovici, Grdonj, the Jagomir neighbourhood,

20 and Poljine.

21 Q. What were the separations like at Grdonj, Jagomir, and Mrkovic?

22 A. What exactly do you mean?

23 Q. In order to -- for us to understand each other and for the Judges

24 to understand, I would like to show you, and I think it would be easier

25 and more useful for the Trial Chamber, I would like to show you a map --

Page 8410

1 or, rather, a photograph, 65 ter 03426, and then we can deal with these

2 matters in the most direct way.

3 Do you see the photograph?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. First of all, can you please tell me where this neighbourhood was

6 where you lived, where you had your family house? You mentioned Jagomir.

7 A. Is there a marker or something? This part is called Grdonj.

8 Q. Well, take a slowly, because I didn't ask you that.

9 A. My house is behind the hill some 800 metres or a thousand metres

10 behind the hill.

11 Q. Sir, can you please wait for the question. Can you please mark

12 approximately where in relation to this circle that you marked would be

13 your house.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Can you please draw an arrow indicating where your house would be.

16 And does that mean that your house was at the end of this arrow?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you circle that place, please and mark it with the

19 letter "K".

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And this circle that you've drawn, you said that was Grdonj. And

22 can you please place the letter "G" in the middle of the circle.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Before the conflict, what was your route that you took to go to

25 work, to go to town? Can you please mark this route that you would

Page 8411

1 usually take?

2 A. The route actually -- or the road led from my house, but you

3 cannot see it because it's behind this hill.

4 Q. Is there another route, another road that you could use to go to

5 town and to work? Do you see it here?

6 A. Yes, you can see it. It's right here.

7 Q. Everything that you point to, can you also please mark. Mark it

8 with the letter "P", please.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. When the conflict broke out, when you took up weapons, were you

11 able to use that road at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When the conflict began, did you manage to make some sort of

14 communication with those areas that you had some connection with?

15 A. When the conflicts began, we had a sort of mountain path. In

16 order to have a real road, we made this road that you can see on the

17 photograph here.

18 Q. Can you draw it in the other direction, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Can you please mark the entire length of the road, if it's

21 possible to see it on this photograph?

22 A. Yes, yes, it's possible. [Marks]

23 Q. Can you now tell us this arrow, where does that point to?

24 A. To Vogosca.

25 Q. So can you mark that with the letter "V". At the other end, where

Page 8412

1 did the road lead to?

2 A. Pale.

3 Q. Can you mark that with the letter "P", please.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. And now, was there a line of separation there in military -- in

6 the military sense?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you indicate the line of separation on this map dividing you?

9 Actually, if you could be -- could you please use a different colour to

10 mark this?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be given

12 a different coloured marker.

13 Q. First, I would like you to mark the lines where the positions of

14 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were.

15 A. Very well.

16 Q. Can you mark those positions all along this photograph.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Can you mark that with the letter "L".

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Mr. Bozic, where were the positions of your unit -- or, rather,

21 the units that belonged to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at the time?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And can you please tell me, this second middle line in relation to

24 the ridge of this hill, below this line where were the positions?

25 A. Are you thinking of this ridge?

Page 8413

1 Q. Please mark it.

2 A. If you're talking about this ridge --

3 Q. Yes. Can you do that first.

4 A. They were about 50 to 70 metres behind the ridge. At least 50

5 metres behind this ridge.

6 Q. Can you mark this second red line with the letter "S".

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And now can you please tell us Grdonj that we see here, it doesn't

9 have a single tree on it. During the conflict, what was it like? What

10 was on the hill? Did it look like this?

11 A. No. A part of the hill, perhaps a half of it, was wooded.

12 Q. Can you please indicate that section with a circle and place the

13 letter "P" in that circle.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And can you please tell me which units of the army of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina were located there?

17 A. In this area along the lines of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18 there were two brigades that were active. I'm not sure if it was the

19 105th or the 109th, but I know that this area was covered by two

20 brigades. And the objective was to fire constantly and put pressure along

21 our lines of defence with the objective of cutting this road and capturing

22 this area and to put pressure on Vogosca and to capture the Pretis

23 factory.

24 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Judges what the conflicts or

25 the clashes were like when they occurred. And how often did they occur

Page 8414

1 throughout that period, particularly in the period from August 1994, until

2 the end the conflict.

3 A. The pressure on this sector of our unit's lines was constant, but

4 the greatest intensity was during September and October 1994, in June and

5 July 1995, in relation to some other actions that were being carried out

6 in other parts of the theatre, but the pressure was constant. I cannot

7 say that the fighting was conducted every day, but practically there was

8 combat every day.

9 Q. Can you indicate which position in particular was exposed to this?

10 Can you show it on the map?

11 A. What you can see here is a building or facility built by the

12 Austro-Hungarian army, and we called that Mala Kula, Little Tower.

13 Q. Can you please point that out?

14 A. It was behind the ridge. And then in the forest there is another

15 Austro-Hungarian building which was called Velika Kula, Large Tower.

16 That's when the most pressure was felt. These were buildings specially

17 built for the Austrian army, so it was not so easy to resist such

18 pressure.

19 Q. If we look at the place where the conflicts most often were

20 located, and if we take into account the distances that you mentioned

21 earlier, what was the dominant position in this whole area that is shown

22 on this photograph?

23 A. This part of the area shown on this photograph, the highest peak

24 is this one here. This is elevation 906, and it overlooks this side from

25 here. It overlooks the ridge.

Page 8415

1 Q. Finish the arrow and mark what you have just drawn with the

2 letter "G".

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And when you mentioned the elevation for this feature marked by a

5 circle, can you please write in on the left side of the circle the

6 elevation and its height. You said --

7 A. 906, that's what we called it. It's a feature with an altitude of

8 906 metres.

9 Q. Can you please write that down.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And can you please tell me which weapons you had when you were at

12 these positions. First of all, can you tell me what the positions

13 consisted of when you were there?

14 A. Here at elevation 906 was the position of the army of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina. Distance from this elevation to the Mala Kula where we were

16 is 120 metres. I know that for a fact. Our positions were 50 metres

17 behind the ridge. The ridge is about 60-odd metres high, and you can see

18 that it slopes down gradually, and it is 200 metres in length. The top is

19 about 20 metres broad, and then the slopes begin below that.

20 So our positions were behind the ridge some 50 metres back.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Tapuskovic. Mr. Tapuskovic, for the purpose

23 of using this photo, I think it would be good if we could make better

24 markings. I notice that both Grdonj and Spicasta Stijena are marked with

25 a "G", which is confusing. And that neither Velika Kula nor Mala Kula

Page 8416

1 have got any letters, and you may confuse which is which. So can I

2 suggest that you, for instance, mark Spicasta Stijena with a "G1", or put

3 another letter to it, I don't care, and then you could mark Velika Kula

4 with a "V", and Mala Kula with an "M", or something of that sort, in order

5 to be able to interpret the markings at a later stage.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Harhoff, I will

7 do that, but the witness marked it with letter "G" to indicate the ridge.

8 It's Greban in B/C/S.

9 Q. Witness, could you please mark -- use letter "O" here at the

10 ridge.

11 A. Here at the ridge?

12 Q. Yes, that here that is marked with letter "G" could you just make

13 a circle that it becomes letter "O". And it seems here --

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And can you see the little tower or not?

16 A. Well, it's here.

17 Q. What about the large tower?

18 A. Well, you can't see it because of the wood.

19 Q. Could you please mark this location where Mala Kula, Little Tower,

20 is located.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. You've marked this red line that's marked with little "L" as the

23 positions of the BH army. What -- what's that? What was there?

24 A. This line that I drew in.

25 Q. No, no. Listen to me. This thing that you marked with letter "L"

Page 8417

1 down there, what is this? What was there? I don't want to lead you on

2 this, but what were the BH army positions like?

3 A. Well, that's where the trenches were.

4 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you.

5 A. They're trenches.

6 Q. But who held the trenches on the other side?

7 A. Well, this line here marks the positions held by my unit, the

8 Republika Srpska army.

9 Q. On the other side --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and counsel please be asked to

11 make pauses between question and answer for interpretation.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I'm not sure whether you heard

13 the interpreter. She's asking that the witness and counsel observe pauses

14 between question and answer, otherwise it's very difficult for the

15 interpreter. Don't overlap.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Yes. We really have to take that into account. I myself started

18 going a bit faster.

19 You told us that the intention on most cases -- in most cases had

20 been to cut this communication. My first question to you is, what weapons

21 did you have in the trenches that you held?

22 A. Well, apart from the semi-automatic and automatic rifles we didn't

23 have anything else. We had our personal weapons and that's all.

24 Q. Yes. And did you have any heavy weapons with you in the trenches?

25 A. No.

Page 8418

1 Q. And did the BH army have any major weapons at the 906 elevation?

2 A. Well, they had an anti-aircraft cannon that was used by them to

3 target this communication line. I don't know whether they had anything

4 else, but I'm sure about this anti-aircraft cannon.

5 Q. Fine. And if we look at the right-hand side positions held by the

6 BH army that you drew in, what is the configuration of the terrain there

7 in relation to the red line that you marked all the way to the edge when

8 you spoke about the lines held by the BH army?

9 A. Well, this picture does not really correspond to the actual

10 situation. This part here is -- it's a hill. It's green here, but it's

11 not a wooded area, and I marked this with a -- a line.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please stop.

13 Mr. Sachdeva.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just so that the Court is able to be

15 precise as to what the witness is saying, when the witness says this mark

16 here, this part over there, and I can't see where the witness is pointing

17 to, and I submit that this is actually quite important to know what the

18 witness is saying. So perhaps he could have a pointer and we could see on

19 the screen which part he refers to when he says this part here and this

20 part there.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's fair enough.

22 Witness, in your answer said, "This part here, it's a hill." Can

23 you show us with the pointer where that is?

24 We see --

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8419

1 Q. Could you please circle it.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Could you mark this with the letter "V", this part that you

4 circled just now. We already have a "V" for Vogosca. Could you please

5 then mark it with a "W"?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Could you please draw another line here. Is there anything

8 between this feature 906 that you marked and this ridge? Is there

9 anything in between that you could describe and if there is could you

10 please draw a line.

11 A. Well, between 906 feature and this ridge there's nothing. There

12 is line of sight between the two. You can see from one to the other, no

13 obstacles there.

14 Q. Could you please tell us what happened -- what happened with the

15 vehicles that were driving along this road going to Pale in one direction

16 and to Vogosca in the other? What happened to those cars when they would

17 pass by this area?

18 A. Whenever any movement of vehicles would be observed on this road,

19 fire was opened and both the vehicles and the people inside were in

20 danger, and quite often it would happen. And people would get shot in

21 those vehicles. People would get killed. So this road could be used only

22 at night, at dusk, or at dawn in the early morning hours. And people did

23 all they could to avoid driving along it by day.

24 Q. Could you just mark one more thing. What were the positions from

25 which this road was targeted, and could you just draw some arrows

Page 8420

1 indicating that towards the road.

2 A. The most effective targeting of this road was carried out from the

3 summit of this hill marked as 906, because it was the dominant height. It

4 dominated this road.

5 Q. Could you please mark that with the letter "Sh". And what other

6 direction was also a possibility to target this road?

7 A. Well, from this hill here. From this hill here that's marked with

8 "W".

9 Q. And could you just tell me one more thing. At the front lines

10 during the conflict and while you lived there, did you suffer any

11 casualties?

12 A. Yes, of course. Let me just tell you one thing. During the war

13 from 1992 until the end of 1995, while there was fighting our unit

14 suffered casualties. About 550 of our fighters were killed and several

15 hundred civilians were killed too.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this map be admitted into

18 evidence as a Defence exhibit.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be admitted.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As D318, Your Honours.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now I would like you to see a photograph, and let us deal with it

23 as briefly as possible. It's marked C19. Let us deal with it briefly,

24 and I would like you to show us, to draw the separation lines indicating

25 the positions where the BH army had its trenches and the positions where

Page 8421

1 the Republika Srpska army had its trenches.

2 Yes, this part. Page 13. This is what we see in front of us,

3 page 13 of the court photographs C11.

4 Could you please draw a line indicating the trenches of the BH

5 army.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And the SRK trenches, where were they?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Now that you drew this, could you please tell us what was the

10 distance since you said that this was behind the hill. What was the

11 distance from the ridge?

12 A. It was about a hundred to 300 metres.

13 Q. From the positions. You told us a little while ago something that

14 was a bit different.

15 A. I said --

16 Q. I'm asking you about the Republika Srpska army trenches, the

17 positions of the trenches of the SRK.

18 A. From the separation line what was the distance?

19 Q. No. I asked you -- that's what you already told us. How far were

20 the SRK trenches from the top of the ridge?

21 A. At least 50 metres.

22 Q. Could you please tell the Judges -- well, you said about 50

23 metres, and you said more at places but the only thing that got recorded

24 was 50 metres. So what is the correct answer?

25 A. I said at least 50 metres, and in some areas even more.

Page 8422

1 Q. Fine. On this photograph you can see -- I can't really define it,

2 but if you look at elevation 906 and then if you go to the right a little

3 bit, what is it that you can see here? There is a thing that I wouldn't

4 like to define it. I heard from some witnesses what it is, but is there

5 an area that you could perhaps call by some name or whatever it is that

6 you do things when you're dealing with natural phenomena.

7 A. Are you referring to this position here, this part here? Could

8 you please tell me what area are you talking about?

9 Q. Well, it's difficult for me to show you from here, but is there

10 some kind of a wedge here?

11 A. Well, in this area, yeah, I'm sure there must be some wedges.

12 Q. Could you please tell us? Could you please draw it?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Now, in relation to this gully here, the first one, what were the

15 positions of the trenches? But let us first mark those lines. The first

16 line, could you please mark it with letters "ABiH", and the other one

17 there with "SRK". And I would like to ask you something that I really

18 need to ask you and I don't want to dwell on this because you've already

19 clarified. From elevation 906, what did this elevation dominate or

20 control?

21 A. The elevation 906 controlled the whole area of Mrkovici, Jagomir,

22 Radova, Pionirska Dolina, and Kromolj, those neighbourhoods.

23 Q. What about Sedrenik?

24 A. Sedrenik. Well, they could control Sedrenik. It was in the

25 territory that the BH army held.

Page 8423

1 Q. And just to deal with this photograph, to avoid any

2 misunderstandings, could you please write the words "Iza Brda" behind the

3 hill where you marked SRK.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you. I would like to tender this photograph as a Defence

6 exhibit.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I would just like the

9 witness -- well, I withdraw that. I'll do it in cross-examination.

10 Sorry.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As D319, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just a question for

14 clarification purposes. Are we far from Grdonj hill? This elevation in

15 relation to Grdonj hill, how far is it? Can we see Grdonj hill on this

16 photograph?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can ask.

18 Q. Could you please mark Grdonj here. Could you mark it here with a

19 circle.

20 A. The photograph just disappeared from my screen.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does that mean that we have lost all the

22 markings?

23 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour, it doesn't. We save it and it

24 will be just a minute.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8424

1 Q. Now in light of the question that His Honour Judge Mindua asked,

2 could you please circle Grdonj here.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And could you please mark the elevation. How high is it?

5 A. It's 906 metres.

6 Q. So from this position you can control all those areas that you

7 indicated?

8 A. Yes, as you can see from this photograph.

9 Q. And the heavy weapons that the BH army had was positioned in those

10 areas?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in relation to that elevation, all the elevations held by the

13 army of Republika Srpska --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

15 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that last question about the heavy

16 weapons in my submission is leading and, in my recollection,

17 mischaracterises the evidence. I understand that the witness spoke about

18 an anti-aircraft weapon, and I don't know if he went into further details

19 about other weapons. I may be mistaken, but that's my recollection.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it was leading, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was convinced

22 that I asked him about something he already said, but I can repeat my

23 question. I asked what heavy weapons were at that location, and he can

24 again say that. I was citing him, so maybe I made a mistake.

25 Q. What were the heavy weapons that were located at this 906

Page 8425

1 elevation of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 A. Elevation 906 had an anti-aircraft gun. There was definitely one.

3 Perhaps it was 20- or 30-millimetre calibre, and it was very effectively

4 firing at the road.

5 Q. And in relation to elevation 906, I need to ask you again. All

6 the other positions occupied by your side, you, what position were they

7 in?

8 A. Well, you can see on the photograph that we were at a lower

9 elevation in relation to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. And this photograph, can it please be saved and tendered as a

11 Defence exhibit, please.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Witness, Mr. Bozic, could you just clarify which

13 road you refer to when you say that the anti-aircraft gun on top of Grdonj

14 was controlling the road? Which road is that? Is that -- yes, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you cannot see the road

16 on this photograph.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is exactly why I'm asking. So which road do

18 you -- were you referring to?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained that --

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Witness, let me be clear about it, because you can

21 actually see some roads on the photo. So my question is, was the

22 anti-aircraft gun on top of Grdonj placed in such a manner as to point

23 away from what we can see in the picture, that is to say, in the other

24 direction?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

Page 8426

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Harhoff, I need

3 to put one more question, then, in this context.

4 Q. How many kilometres behind Grdonj was that road, your road that

5 led to Pale and Vogosca? Approximately.

6 A. The closest road from elevation 906, or the distance between

7 elevation 906 and the road at some places was at least 200 to 400 metres.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you please draw a line from one end to the other

9 end of this road? Above the ridge, a little bit higher up. Some 3 to 4

10 centimetres higher.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. All right. You can do that. And then draw a long line, and in

13 the other direction as well, please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. You can also please draw a line towards Grdonj from the road.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And next to that you can place the numbers 200 to 400.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And mark that line with the letter "T".

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And the shorter line you can mark with the letter "O".

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. At the end of the line can you please draw in arrows, and you can

24 put the letter "P" there, and on the other end you can place the letter

25 "V" like you did before.

Page 8427

1 A. [Marks]

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we please save this,

3 and I would like to tender it as a Defence exhibit.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, I have one more

5 question. I hope it's the last one, because I don't want to disrupt your

6 examination-in-chief.

7 Witness, please, you say that on Grdonj hill there was an

8 anti-aircraft gun. That's what you say; right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] What was its purpose? If we listen

11 to what another witness said here, he sold us that the SRK had no planes.

12 So this ABiH gun, what was its purpose? Do you have any idea? I mean,

13 you were there in the field.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose of the anti-aircraft gun

15 was to destroy vehicles that were moving along that road, and the people

16 in the vehicles, of course.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we tender this

19 document as a Defence exhibit, please. This photograph, rather.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be admitted, and we'll take the break

21 now.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As D320, Your Honours.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 8428

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just

2 wanted to look at another photograph. I would like to deal with

3 photograph C11, page 14.

4 Q. Mr. Bozic, do you see this photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And now because we looked at the hill that you pointed to, to the

7 extreme right, can you now indicate the line of the positions of the army

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina on this photograph, and you can mark it from one

9 end of the photograph to the other.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Can you mark it with the letter "A", please.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And if you can also please tell us the ridge that we're talking

14 about and refer to as Grdonj, what was the name of that ridge in

15 peacetime?

16 A. If you're talking about this rock that we refer to as a ridge, to

17 tell you the truth, I don't think that it had a name at all.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please also save this

20 photograph, and I would like to tender it as an exhibit of the Defence.


22 THE REGISTRAR: As D321, Your Honours.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Bozic, and now I would like to ask you if you know when

25 General Dragomir Milosevic assumed the position at the head of the

Page 8429

1 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

2 A. General Milosevic assumed the duty of the commander of the

3 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in August 1994.

4 Q. And can you please tell us if you know what happened with heavy

5 weapons in 1994, regardless of whether it was weaponry of the army of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina or the army of Republika Srpska?

7 A. Based on the Security Council Resolution from 1994, I don't know

8 exactly from which month, heavy weaponry of the army of Republika Srpska

9 or the federation had to be pulled out 20 kilometres into the depth of the

10 areas they had under their control.

11 Q. Thank you. You said about -- you spoke about an hour ago about

12 the events in the place that is frequently referred to as Spicasta

13 Stijena, and you said that there were almost daily clashes there. And you

14 also mentioned September 1994 as the time when significant incident took

15 place. Can you please tell us exactly what happened then?

16 A. In 1994 in September, I think it was the second half of the month,

17 forces of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina exerted a lot of pressure on

18 this section of positions of the army of Republika Srpska. I think the

19 attack went on for two or three days, and I think they even captured two

20 or three trenches, I'm not sure how many, with the objective of capturing

21 the road and cutting the road, cutting off our forces, and to capture that

22 part of the terrain in order to push us back.

23 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you a document just for you to

24 look at briefly and to see if that corresponds to what you are telling us

25 now. This is document D156. When you have the document in front you, can

Page 8430

1 you please tell us the date, and can you briefly look at paragraph 1 under

2 item 2, to see if this is something that corresponds to this incident from

3 September 1994. Can you please read the heading out loud and what it says

4 in the first paragraph of item 2, under the heading "Our Forces."

5 A. "Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, command of the

6 1st Corps, date 19th of September, 1994."

7 "At the Sarajevo front our forces, on the 18th of September,

8 1994, carried out active combat with the objective of capturing Spicasta

9 Stijena and Mala Kula. For this assignment the following forces were

10 engaged: Platoon strength from the 120th -- or from the 129th Mountain

11 Brigade, Crni Labudovi, Black Swans; a platoon of the MUP Bosnia, a

12 reconnaissance sabotage platoon of the 105th Mountain Brigade, the 2nd

13 intervention platoon from the 105th Mountain Brigade, a pioneer's platoon,

14 a platoon of engineers."

15 Q. All right. Very well. We don't have to go into all of that. But

16 anyway, does that correspond to the incident that you mentioned that went

17 on for several days?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, can you please tell me, this was in the month of September.

20 Did anything of significance also happen in that period, in autumn that

21 you would be able to tell the Judges about?

22 A. I can say that forces of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

23 changed their tactics slightly in this section of the front, precisely

24 because heavy weaponry had been pulled out to a 20-kilometre exclusion

25 zone, and any firing along the lines of army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in

Page 8431

1 Sarajevo was forbidden. They pulled out some of their forces from

2 Sarajevo and carried out a major offensive in August at the Nisici front

3 where we lost a substantial amount of territory, and we needed a month to

4 re-establish those lines.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. Precisely this event of the 18th and the 19th of September, 1994,

7 happened at our section of the front. It was simultaneous coordination

8 with the Nisici forces in order to improve their positions in our sector.

9 Q. All right. And this is September, and you can now tell us about

10 October, November, December. Did anything else happen then?

11 A. September and the first half of October at the Nisici theatre were

12 fairly calm, we can say, but November and December had a lot of combat

13 activity.

14 Q. In that time, did you leave the positions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please tell us what happened in two words? How did you

17 leave your positions?

18 A. You mean me, personally, or --

19 Q. Well, let's not lose time on that. You said it was November,

20 December. It was quiet.

21 A. In November and December there were activities on the Nisici

22 front.

23 Q. Did this stop at some point or end at some point in time?

24 A. It ended with a truce that was established on the 1st of January,

25 1990 -- and it officially went on until 1990 -- the 1st of May, 1995.

Page 8432

1 Q. And what happened then?

2 A. There was a large offensive that was prepared along all the lines

3 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps during the truce, which happened in the

4 early morning hours on the 15th of June, 1995.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember who announced this offensive in the

6 media?

7 A. Well, the then president of the Republic of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, publicly stated that by mid-June there

9 would be a large offensive to destroy the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

10 Q. Thank you. You told us something at the beginning of your

11 evidence. I will take you back to that, but could you please tell us, how

12 did this offensive that started on the 15th of June, 1995, look like?

13 A. Well, this offensive started -- there was pressure on all the

14 front lines held by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps units, and the BH army

15 forces had, during the cease-fire, obtained weapons. I don't know through

16 which channels. And ammunition, too. So they had so much weapons and

17 ammunition that it was by sheer luck that we managed to hold on to some

18 very important positions for our forces.

19 Q. Please, I would like to deal with some other issues relating to

20 those -- those first few days because you mentioned them an hour ago.

21 What happened in this period between the 15th and the 20th of June?

22 A. On the 15th and the 16th of June, 1995, the biggest success of the

23 BH army was -- lay in the fact that they cut the Vogosca-Srednje road.

24 They broke through our lines and entered about two kilometres into the

25 depth of our territory. There was fierce fighting in this area, and two

Page 8433

1 days later, we managed to recapture those areas and re-establish the lines

2 at the positions where they were before the offensive.

3 Q. Thank you. Are those positions where you were, Grdonj and this

4 road leading to Vogosca and Pale, what happened there?

5 A. Well, they launched a very fierce offensive there, too, because

6 they must have had really good coordination. When they broke through to

7 the lines and cut this stretch of the road, Vogosca-Srednje road, the BH

8 army forces that were -- I think it was the 105th or 109th, they tried to

9 cut this road at Mrkovici to link up with the forces that had cut the road

10 at this other position.

11 Q. Thank you. Let me show you a document. That's DD003046. The

12 transcript is -- does not reflect the correct number that I asked for.

13 It's DD003046.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this doesn't have a

15 translation, but could I perhaps read a couple of things from this

16 document to show them to this witness, please?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, if they are short passages.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] To make it as fast as possible,

19 could I just read it very briefly so that the witness then can -- so that

20 things go on faster?


22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Bozic, this is about a document from the BH army. The date is

24 the 18th of June, and item 1.2 reads: "On the Pale-Vogosca road," this is

25 information about the enemy, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, "there has been

Page 8434

1 an increase in the number of luxury cars and trucks moving at

2 large -- large distance between them."

3 Then it goes on: "Information about our own forces. Our forces

4 fired from an anti-aircraft gun on the vehicles moving along the

5 Mrkovici-Vogosca road at 1800 hours and at 2200 hours. Those vehicles

6 were targeted by 82-millimetre mortars."

7 Does this correspond to what you just told us about the events at

8 Vogosca-Pale road where those luxury vehicles and trucks were moving?

9 A. This corresponds to this report, because as I already said when

10 the Vogosca-Srednje road was cut after the two days of fighting to

11 recapture this -- these positions, the people were moved out of this area.

12 They moved to Pale. And those were the vehicles that were targeted as

13 described in this document.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

15 tender this document as an exhibit. I would like to have it marked for

16 identification until we obtain a translation.


18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll mark this for identification

19 as D322.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Before I show you another document, and that should be the end of

22 it, in those days up until the 20th, so between the 15th and the 20th,

23 were there any casualties in this fighting? Well, here a mention is made

24 of mortars. So were there any casualties among the soldiers and the

25 civilians in this area where you were?

Page 8435

1 A. In those operations, in both actions, in the four days we lost 32

2 fighters, and I don't know how many people were wounded. And I know that

3 there were civilian casualties too.

4 Q. In this column of refugees that was heading down the road that we

5 were talking about?

6 A. Yes, that's precisely what I'm telling you when I talk about

7 civilians.

8 Q. And let me show you this document. This was on the 18th of June,

9 and I will now show you a document, DD003048. It's a Defence exhibit

10 marked for identification. According to my records, it's D313 MFI. It

11 was tendered a couple of days ago.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may proceed in

13 the same manner to speed up our work. This is a document that's already

14 been marked for identification as a Defence exhibit. May I proceed?


16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I will read slowly.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And to let you know that you are now beyond the

19 time that was allotted to you of one hour and a half.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I was mindful of that, and I

21 will -- this will be my last question.

22 Q. So this is a document dated the 20th of June, 1995, the army of

23 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, regular combat report.

24 "Information about our own forces."

25 Item 2.1: "At 1800 hours our forces carried out an attack from a

Page 8436

1 distance on the p/k l/o of the enemy. Anti-armour weapons were used to

2 target the trench at the Spicasta Stijena, Krstaseva Kuca, the trench

3 below the crossroads of the Barice-Mrkovici road and Mala Kula. On that

4 occasion, the trenches at the Spicasta Stijena, Mala Kula and Krstaseva

5 Kuca suffered a direct hit. The effect of those attacks is excellent."

6 Does this correspond to what happened two days after the events

7 that you described just now?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And my last question. In addition to this road that was

10 constantly targeted, do you have any information about any other points or

11 roads that were targeted in the same way as this road at Mrkovici?

12 A. The Lukavica-Trebevic-Pale road was targeted in the same manner as

13 this road that we were at.

14 Q. At what point?

15 A. Well, Zlatiste was particularly targeted.

16 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Bozic.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bozic.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. My name is Manoj Sachdeva, and I'm a lawyer for the Prosecution,

23 and I'm going to be asking you some questions. Can I just start with

24 getting some -- some background details? You were in the Kosevo

25 Battalion, as I understand -- or the Kosevo Brigade from the onset of the

Page 8437

1 conflict through to the end of the war. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you gave evidence that in early 1994, the Kosevo Brigade was

4 amalgamated with the -- well, was actually subsumed within the 3rd

5 Sarajevo Brigade; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when it became the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, so we're talking

8 1994, 1995, you gave evidence that you were a battalion commander, the

9 1st Battalion. Is that right?

10 A. I think that this is not what I said. The order of things is

11 wrong. It's the other way around. I said when the Kosevo Brigade was

12 established, I was the commander of the 2nd Battalion in the Kosevo

13 Brigade. That was until the spring of 1994, or from spring of 1994 until

14 the establishment of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade.

15 Q. Yes. And I recall that when the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade was

16 established, you were the commander of the 1st Battalion within that

17 brigade. Is that right?

18 A. No. No.

19 Q. So what were you doing in the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?

20 A. In the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, as I indicated at the start, I was

21 one of the operations officers. I was the assistant to the chief of staff

22 for operations and training, and it was my task to deal with the lines

23 held by the Republika Srpska army at Mrkovic and Vogosca. So I was there

24 when -- while I was in the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade.

25 Q. And who was, at the time, your chief or your supervisor? In other

Page 8438

1 words, the chief of staff for operations and training within the

2 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?

3 A. The chief of staff in the Sarajevo Brigade was Major Miro Radic.

4 Q. And at that time the commander of the brigade was

5 Dragan Josipovic, wasn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And where were your brigade headquarters? Where were the brigade

8 headquarters for the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?

9 A. Vogosca.

10 Q. And in your role as the assistant to the chief of staff for

11 operations and training, from 1994 through to 1995, approximately

12 how -- how much of the time was spent in the command headquarters? How

13 much time did you spend at the command headquarters?

14 A. I spent very little time at the headquarters of the brigade. I

15 mostly did my job in the field, except on those days when there were no

16 major combat operations and when I had my regular duty days.

17 Q. And when you were at the command headquarters did you participate

18 in regular meetings with other members of the command and indeed the

19 brigade commander?

20 A. At those regular meetings or briefings, as we used to call them,

21 at the brigade there would always be one of the assistants to the chief of

22 staff for operations in training, but on most occasions it would be the

23 one who was on duty in the command headquarters.

24 Q. So --

25 A. There would always be someone.

Page 8439

1 Q. So I take it that you did attend some of those meetings.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at those meetings, presumably your department, in other words,

4 the department for operations and training, would brief the brigade

5 commander about the previous day's activities, the forthcoming activities

6 related to your -- to your section; is that right?

7 A. Well, I wouldn't put it quite like that, because all the

8 activities that were going on or were supposed to go on, the biggest

9 responsibility was in the hands of the commander, Dragan Josipovic. If

10 any preparations had to be carried out for anything, that was within the

11 purview of the duty officer in the command of our brigade.

12 Q. Yes. I actually wasn't speaking about the preparations, but

13 let's -- let's try and do this another way. At those regular meetings

14 that you on occasion attended, presumably there would be your unit, there

15 would be the unit, for example, for morale and religious affairs. There

16 may have been a logistics unit. There may have been a communications

17 unit. And I'm simply asking that at those meetings, of course, I

18 understand that the brigade commander makes the ultimate decision, but at

19 those meetings each unit would have the responsibility to brief the

20 commander as to the previous day's activities and possibly any other

21 future activities. Do you agree with that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So at least within the -- within your remit, within the remit of

24 your unit, you would brief the brigade commander and other persons in the

25 hierarchy of issues related to training, issues related to the workings of

Page 8440

1 the operations department.

2 A. Not I, personally, but through the chief of staff. The chief of

3 staff had us as his assistants, but he submitted his reports to the

4 brigade commander. So this was not our task to do so.

5 Q. And similarly, if the brigade commander had orders or -- well, I

6 would say orders to the respective departments within his brigade at those

7 meetings those orders would be -- would be given to his sections. That

8 would be the -- the format in which it was done; is that right?

9 A. As far as I know, all the tasks were agreed at the meetings.

10 Every unit would get not only oral orders but also written orders.

11 Q. And the oral orders would -- would be communicated through, I

12 understand, induction telephones and other means; is that right?

13 A. Not always. In fact, very seldom.

14 Q. So how were -- how were the oral orders communicated in?

15 A. Oral orders were communicated personally. In person, in other

16 words. Because of the audio surveillance carried out by the enemy forces

17 telephones were seldom used.

18 Q. When you spoke just before you completed your -- completed the

19 examination-in-chief you spoke about a Security Council Resolution with

20 respect to heavy weapons. Do you remember speaking about that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I take it that you -- you and your fellow colleagues within

23 the command became aware of these -- of this Security Council Resolution

24 at those meetings, or was there another way that you became aware of this

25 Security Council Resolution?

Page 8441

1 A. We knew that before, but we were notified officially from the

2 command, the corps command. But reports had already appeared in the

3 media.

4 Q. And because this Security Council Resolution related to the -- to

5 the two warring factions, I take it that other Security Council

6 Resolutions that also related to the ABiH, to the SRK, the contents of

7 those Security Council Resolutions would have been communicated to -- to

8 the brigades, to the brigade staff. Is that a fair statement, sir?

9 A. I didn't understand your question.

10 Q. I'll try again. You've told us that the Security Council

11 Resolution that you spoke about with respect to the heavy weapons, you

12 became aware of that. Do you remember telling the Court that? You said

13 that you were notified officially from the command, from the corps

14 command.

15 A. I don't know whether it was a Resolution or an order. You can

16 call it whatever you wish, but we learned about this Resolution or order

17 because there had been debate about it for maybe 20 days or a month before

18 this decision was actually taken to withdraw the heavy weapons 20

19 kilometres into the depth of the territory. So everybody knew that

20 something was going on regarding this issue. Even the small children knew

21 that.

22 Q. Yes. And I'm actually using your words. You said Security

23 Council Resolution. So what I'm asking you is that -- that if there were

24 or when there were other Security Council Resolutions or orders from the

25 corps command that related to -- to the workings of the brigade, the

Page 8442

1 brigade staff would have been aware of them; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I spoke a moment ago about the -- the different units that

4 may have been at these meetings that you attended on occasion, and I spoke

5 about the department for logistics, and I also spoke about a unit of the

6 department for morale and religious affairs. Do you remember that, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And at the time -- at the time you were within the 3rd Sarajevo

9 Brigade, in other words, at the time you were the assistant to the chief

10 of staff for training and operations, I understand that the commander for

11 morale and religious affairs was somebody called Miroslav Krajisnik. Is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And, sir, is it also correct that while he had this -- this role

15 within that unit, he also was -- how should I put it? He was a liaison

16 officer or he was involved in cooperation with the UNPROFOR; is that

17 right?

18 A. For a time, yes, but as to how long we had this member of our

19 brigade who was a liaison with UNPROFOR I can't tell you, but the answer

20 is yes, in other words.

21 Q. Thank you for that. And I shall get back to that in a moment.

22 Can I ask you, you remember being asked questions about the -- about the

23 sniping -- the training for snipers? Do you remember those questions by

24 His Honour Judge Mindua?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8443

1 Q. Now, you said -- you said that -- in one of the answers you said,

2 "I can't tell you that I saw this because I didn't, but I think that

3 because it was winter this order could not be carried out and this is why

4 the commander did not issue an order to carry out this order that had been

5 sent down from the corps." Do you remember your answer to His Honour

6 Judge Mindua?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, leaving aside whether you actually saw this -- this order or

9 whether you actually went for the training, you knew, because you were an

10 assistant to the commander for training and operations, you knew that you

11 had been selected as one of these trainers for a sniper course. Isn't

12 that right?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'd like to show you another document, sir. If I could ask

15 for -- it's P682 or 762. For some reason it was tendered twice.

16 Now, sir, you see on the screen that this document is dated the

17 15th of January, 1995. And if we can please go -- I'm sorry, I'm going to

18 have to go back and forth, but if we go to the last page.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, are you saying something? No?

20 No. You're just exercising.

21 Mr. Sachdeva.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Can the last page be scrolled down, please, to the

23 end.

24 Q. Sir, you see on the right-hand side you see that it is -- it's

25 -- it comes from your commander of the brigade, Dragan Josipovic. Do you

Page 8444

1 see that there, sir? Yes, I'm asking you.

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And you're -- you remember seeing at the front that this was a

4 document from the command of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade to the

5 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, in other words, the corps command. Do you

6 remember seeing that or do you want me to show that to you again?

7 A. If it's not a problem, could you please turn to that page?

8 Q. Yes, I will.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: If we could go to the first page, please.

10 Q. You see there it emanates from the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, and

11 you'll see on the right-hand side the command of the SRK. You see that?

12 A. This is a report on the order dated the 5th of January, 1995, as

13 far as I can see.

14 Q. Now, if we could move to the -- it's the third page in the -- in

15 the Serbian version and the -- and the fourth page in the English.

16 Now, sir, you'll see in the middle of the document, in the middle

17 of the page or on the Serbian version it's down towards the bottom, you'll

18 see a list of names and I take it you see your name there.

19 Lieutenant Vlajko Bozic.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sorry for my pronunciation. That's your name, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you see that there was -- there is a recommendation sent to

24 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps for -- for you to be sent for training

25 instructor's course. You see that's what it says, don't you?

Page 8445

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you see below that there are six persons that are selected for

3 sniper training also.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you also see that at the bottom, the line at the bottom of the

6 second list of names that Lukavica is recommended as a site for the

7 training. Do you see that there?

8 A. Could you please show me that? Where is this? Okay. Yeah.

9 Fine, fine. Yes, I do, I do.

10 Q. Sir, let me ask you this: You may not have gone to Jahorina, but

11 did you go to Lukavica for training?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever go to Lukavica for training?

14 A. Never.

15 Q. But are you still maintaining your evidence that you were not

16 aware that you had been chosen to be an instructor? Is that still your

17 evidence?

18 A. I remember this document from our unit, but I never went to this

19 instructor's course.

20 Q. And now that you remember this document, your answer you gave me

21 previously that you don't or you were not aware that you had been

22 selected, that must cause you to -- to reflect on your answer. So you

23 were aware that you had been chosen to go on this course. Leaving aside

24 whether you went or not, but you were aware that you had been chosen.

25 Isn't that right, sir?

Page 8446

1 A. If you are referring to the list that was shown by Mr. Tapuskovic

2 and this list, I think that we're talking about two different lists that

3 served two different purposes. In the initial situation -- in the initial

4 situation, it says that I am appointed to conduct a course, sniper's

5 course. That's in the first document that was offered by Mr. Tapuskovic,

6 and on -- in this document that you're talking about, my name is put

7 forward to attend the instructor's course. So according to me, we're

8 talking about two different documents, two different purposes.

9 Q. Very well. So you were, nevertheless, aware that you had been

10 selected to attend the instructor's course for sniping. You're aware of

11 that, aren't you? You may not have gone, but you were aware that you had

12 been selected. Just answer the question yes or no.

13 A. It doesn't say here the course for the instructors who will then

14 carry out sniper training, as far as I can see.

15 Q. Sir, are you aware that -- were you aware that you had been

16 selected for training -- for a training instructor's course? Yes or no?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Incidentally, do you -- these names, the five, six names at the

19 bottom, Miroslavko Ivetic, Slavko Peric, Aleksandar Jokic, Zoran Sucur, do

20 you know these people?

21 A. I know them.

22 Q. They were snipers, weren't they?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Your brigade, the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade did have didn't it, a

25 sniping platoon or a sniping unit, in addition to the infantry soldiers

Page 8447

1 that it had; is that right?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Very well. I'm going to move on now. Now, you spoke about the

4 media earlier in your examination-in-chief and also a little bit with me.

5 You remember that, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you said that -- well, let me ask you this: Did you have

8 available to you and did the brigade have available to it the -- the media

9 from the federation side, let's say the ABiH side, in addition to the

10 media from the VRS side, from the Bosnian Serb side?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I take it, then, that when you or your fellow soldiers would

13 be listening -- sorry, was it radio and television or one or the other or

14 was it both?

15 A. We could listen to the radio, and the only TV channel that we got

16 from Sarajevo was Hayat TV.

17 Q. So with the radio and the television channel, you must have been

18 aware of what the federation side and the VRS side were reporting in terms

19 of how the conflict was progressing; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And see, sir, I take it when -- on the occasions when you were to

22 watch the media of the federation or listen to the radio of the

23 federation, in other words, the ABiH, you must have been aware of

24 the - how should it put it? - the allegations that the Sarajevo-Romanija

25 Corps forces were shelling and sniping at civilians in the city. You must

Page 8448

1 have heard those stories; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And presumably you also must have heard from the Sarajevo -- from

4 the Bosnian Serb side you probably must have heard that the stories that

5 were coming out of the Bosnian federation side were -- allegations were

6 false, were propaganda. That also must have been something that you

7 heard; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, at these meetings that you attended, the meetings at the

10 brigade command, were these allegations of the shelling and sniping of

11 civilians by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps forces, were these allegations

12 ever brought up in these meetings? Were they ever discussed?

13 A. Seldom.

14 Q. When they were discussed, since I take it when you say seldom that

15 they were discussed, is that a correct understanding, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who would initiate the discussion? Would it be Dragan Josipovic

18 himself?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when he initiated the discussion, how did it he -- how did he

21 do that? What did he say?

22 A. Well, I already said that those things were discussed seldom, but

23 in most cases most of the things had to do with this decision to pull out

24 the heavy weapons 20 kilometres into the depth of the territory because

25 the Sarajevo side contributed to this decision being made by their false

Page 8449

1 reports of the shelling incidents involving civilians, targeting civilians

2 in the city and this led to this whole thing.

3 Q. Did Dragan Josipovic maintain that these were false reports?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And how was he able to establish that these were false reports?

6 A. Well, I don't know how he was able to establish that those

7 allegations were false, but I know that a lot of what could be seen in the

8 media or through other channels originating from Sarajevo, I know that a

9 lot of it was not true.

10 Q. How do you know that, sir?

11 A. Well, let me give you an example if you want me to.

12 Q. Well, let me just ask you a question before, before that, sir, if

13 you don't mind. You said that you don't know how Dragan Josipovic was

14 able to establish whether -- that they were false reports. In the

15 meetings that you attended, did you ever hear or did Dragan Josipovic ever

16 say -- did he ever initiate an investigation into the conduct of soldiers

17 within his brigade with respect to these allegations?

18 A. I don't remember any such occasions.

19 Q. Now, sir, I want to move to some of the photographs that you

20 marked. If I could ask for -- I think it's the first one, D -- D318.

21 Sir, you remember this photograph. It looks a bit complicated,

22 but you remember these markings?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Now, firstly I want to ask you, you see the hills in the

25 background, in other words, to the top of the photograph. You see those

Page 8450

1 hills at the top of the photograph?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Those hills are -- well, that's Mrkovici, is it not?

4 A. Mrkovici is -- is below these hills here, so it's a part of this

5 green surface just below the hill.

6 Q. Nevertheless, those hills that we see in the top part of the

7 picture, during the conflict were controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija

8 Corps, weren't they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it's clear, is it not, sir, that those hills are higher in

11 elevation than Grdonj?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And similarly I take it we can't see the area of Poljine in this

14 photograph, but Poljine was also higher in elevation than Grdonj.

15 A. No. Poljine, like Poljine.

16 Q. Now, I want --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. You said

18 Poljine was not higher than Grdonj, but then you said Poljine --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Poljine is part of a neighbourhood.

20 That's what it's called, the Poljine neighbourhood.



23 Q. Sir, you were asked -- you remember you were asked to identify

24 the -- the VRS lines, in other words the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps lines

25 behind the ridge-line of what was termed Spicasta Stijena. Do you

Page 8451

1 remember giving evidence about that? You said it was at least 50 metres

2 below the ridge.

3 A. Behind. Not below, but behind.

4 Q. Very well, behind. As -- as the chief of -- as the assistant to

5 the chief of staff for operations and training, were you ever positioned

6 in those trenches that we -- that you've just spoken about during the

7 period 1994 and 1995? Were you personally ever there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many times were you there if you can tell the Court that. I

10 appreciate it's some time ago, but if you can, that would be great.

11 A. I was there throughout, during combat actions and in the critical

12 time period when we were losing some trenches in this sector.

13 Q. Sir, let me just try and get some clarity. When you say you were

14 there throughout, you don't mean that you were there for the whole of 1994

15 and the whole of 1995. I take it that you mean that you were there during

16 specific -- specific combat activity. Is that right?

17 A. Precisely.

18 Q. Were you there in the -- while the combat operation of the 19th of

19 September, 1994, took place? Were you there then, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, you said that these -- these VRS lines, these trenches were

22 some -- were at least 50 metres below the ridge. The Defence has brought

23 a previous witness who has also testified in this case, a soldier -- or

24 shall I say someone who was also in those trenches, and his evidence was

25 that perhaps they were some 20 to 40 metres behind the ridge. Is that a

Page 8452

1 possibility, sir? Is it perhaps maybe 20 metres towards 50 to 80 metres?

2 Is that a fair statement?

3 A. I can say with certainty that the trenches were behind the ridge,

4 and they were at least 50 metres away. Behind the ridge. Not to the

5 right or to the left, behind the actual ridge.

6 Q. I understand the position, sir. I'm just talking about the

7 distance. This witness has said 20 to 40 metres, and I'm just wondering

8 whether he may have been correct or you still maintain what you're saying.

9 I'm talking, you know, from the top of the ridge, from the ridge-line.

10 A. Behind the top of the ridge, the way I described. Behind the top

11 of the ridge. These two arrows that I drew on one side and the other,

12 that is where the trenches were on the slope of the ridge.

13 Q. And you're saying they were some 50 metres from the top of the

14 ridge.

15 A. Yes. I didn't measure it, but that would be that approximately.

16 Q. Now, sir, you see in the foreground or the bottom part of the

17 picture if you look to your right, you'll see a collection of houses. Do

18 you see that, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those houses represent the village of Sedrenik, don't they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you will agree with me, sir, that from the top of the ridge

23 there is a clear view of that part of the Sedrenik, isn't there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Perhaps I could ask you to mark the village of Sedrenik. If you

Page 8453

1 can put -- if you can just place the letters "SR" at that village where

2 the houses are on the bottom right-hand side that would be helpful.

3 A. The village of Sedrenik is this entire complex. Can I have the

4 picture back again, please? [Marks]

5 Q. And --

6 A. It's not a row of houses. It's the entire area, even lower down.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you. I think I said collection of houses, but if you

8 could just put "SR" in that black circle.

9 A. You said a group of houses.

10 Q. Please. Thanks.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Now, sir, I take it that from the -- the trenches -- the trenches

13 that were 50 metres behind the top of the ridge you would -- or the

14 soldiers in those trenches would not have been able to see the ABiH

15 trenches at the -- the other side of the ridge, the bottom slope of the

16 ridge.

17 A. No.

18 Q. When you say, "No," you agree with me?

19 A. You couldn't see them.

20 Q. Just to make sure it's recorded properly on the transcript.

21 And --

22 A. You just asked about the ridge.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Only the ridge.

25 Q. Right. And the ABiH lines that are just on the other side of the

Page 8454

1 ridge, I think you said in evidence were some hundred to hundred and fifty

2 metres from the ridge-line; that is right?

3 A. The lines of the forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina were just below

4 the ridge. But like I said at some point in one area, this area to the

5 right that we marked with a "W", that is where there is a forested area.

6 There it was from 150 to 200 metres apart. But below the ridge the ridge

7 is about 50 metres high. So they were just below the ridge.

8 Q. Now, do you -- do you remember your time while you were at the

9 trenches and also while you were within the brigade, do you remember

10 somebody called Vaso Nikolic?

11 A. Vaso Nikolic? Yes, I think that I do remember. I knew a man

12 named Vaso. I'm not sure if his last name was Nikolic, though, but I

13 think that I do know him.

14 Q. And did you know him from -- from being stationed at the trenches

15 behind the ridge?

16 A. No.

17 Q. In any case, he -- he was a soldier with the Sarajevo -- 3rd

18 Sarajevo Brigade, and he was stationed behind the trenches, and -- well,

19 let me just ask you this: While it's correct that there were no permanent

20 positions on top of the ridge either by the SRK --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- You asked him whether he knew him from being

24 stationed at the trenches behind the ridge and he said no, and then you

25 put a question, "In any case, he was a soldier with the Sarajevo Brigade,

Page 8455

1 and he was stationed behind the trenches." But isn't that what he just

2 said no to?

3 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, that's correct, Mr. President. However, I'm

4 going to --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, you are putting --

6 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm going to put --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're putting that to him that he was.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, and I'm going to put it again to him when I

9 get to that part of the cross-examination.



12 Q. Mr. Bozic, my question was -- my next question is this: That there

13 were no -- on top of the ridge, in other words, on the ridge-line itself

14 is it correct that there were no SRK positions there, permanent positions

15 there?

16 A. They were not temporary or permanent positions, no.

17 Q. And, of course, the ABiH were never on top of that ridge, were

18 they?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, is it not correct, however, that from the trenches behind the

21 ridge-line there was -- the soldiers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps could,

22 as it were, crawl up to the ridge where there would be a small observation

23 point on top of that ridge?

24 A. This perhaps could have happened in 1992, but later the ridge was

25 mined from our side and their side. So it was not possible for anybody to

Page 8456

1 go up to the ridge and do anything.

2 Q. I'm talking about the -- presumably if you're stationed at your

3 trenches behind the ridge, if you look up, up towards the slope, you would

4 see the top of the ridge, is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I still put to you, sir, that on the top of the ridge, maybe

7 just beneath the rim of the ridge, there was a small observation point

8 where a SRK soldier could take a commanding view of the village at

9 Sedrenik and also the ABiH lines. Do you agree with that or not, sir?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

12 just said that from -- that in 1992, it could have been a surveillance

13 point, but after 1992, because those places were mined by both sides,

14 after 1992 it was not possible, like he said, like he explained earlier,

15 that it was impossible to get up to that elevation, the point on the

16 ridge.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That may be so, Mr. Tapuskovic, but Mr. Sachdeva

18 has different instructions, and he's entitled to put his case to the

19 witness on the basis of his instructions. That's what cross-examination

20 is about.


22 Q. Sir, perhaps I can ask you another way. Maybe -- maybe it will

23 be -- it will be more clear for you.

24 The gentleman that we spoke about, Mr. Nikolic, he testified

25 in -- in this institution in the Galic case, and he gave evidence, as you

Page 8457

1 are doing, under oath that there was an observation point on top of the

2 ridge where, of course, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers would -- they

3 would go there and use that observation point to -- to conduct

4 surveillance or to observe what was happening in enemy territory.


6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, then it would be

7 necessary to state the time period that the witness Nikolic was talking

8 about. When was this precisely, so that the witness here could fully

9 answer. What was the time period that the witness Nikolic from the Galic

10 case referred to in this matter?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, are you in a position to give the

12 time period?

13 MR. SACHDEVA: I am, Mr. President, and I understood that I indeed

14 said that in my question. Perhaps the interpretation -- but I remember

15 specifically saying that throughout the conflict. In other words, 1992 to

16 1995. In any case, that's the time period.

17 Q. So, Mr. Bozic, Mr. Nikolic --


19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In the Galic case I know and I

20 read it, it was not permitted to put questions outside of the time period

21 relevant to Mr. Galic. So if it's a question whether this was possible

22 throughout the entire period, I don't think we can do it like that unless

23 we find it in the transcript that it says like that, because I know that

24 in the Galic case the latest date that some activities could be discussed,

25 the cut-off date, would be the 10th of August, 1995 -- no, 1994.

Page 8458

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, are you putting it to him on the

2 basis of what Nikolic said in the Galic case? Because if you are, then

3 you have to be faithful to the -- to what was said in the Galic case. But

4 do we have a transcript of what was said in the Galic case indicating the

5 time period?

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I just have a moment?


8 Mr. Tapuskovic, you should have a copy of this transcript. I

9 understand this was given to you last week.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

11 I already said that, Your Honours. I am not able to think every

12 time I'm expecting a witness, especially not when we're talking about the

13 presentation of evidence of the Prosecution and the presentation of

14 evidence of us, to pay attention to the Galic witnesses in that time

15 period that pertains to that case. I always concentrated on the time

16 period relevant to Dragomir Milosevic. I was not able to deal with things

17 that require a vast amount of time. We still don't know which time period

18 should this case be dealing with definitely, I mean in relation to the

19 adjudicated facts. I really did not think about that, nor was I -- was

20 that something that I was dealing with over the past few days because of

21 the large number of work that I had to do.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, if you can't identify the time

23 period referred to by Nikolic in the Galic case, then I won't permit you

24 to put the question. You have to move on.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I will find the citation. I --

Page 8459

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps you can come back to it.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Very well.

3 Q. Witness -- Mr. Bozic, may just ask you to -- to answer the

4 question that in 1994/1995, are you aware of an observation point on top

5 of the ridge that was used by SRK soldiers? And I'm only suggesting that

6 it was used for observation purposes at this stage.

7 A. I just said at that time in 1994, 1995, 1993, this place could not

8 be used as an observation point because it was mined. So if anyone

9 managed to get up there would not -- they would not come back alive.

10 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: The -- the -- if you're looking up from

11 the trenches and you're looking up to the ridge, in other words, from the

12 VRS trenches -- just imagine yourself doing that.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it your evidence that that -- that area between the -- the area

15 between where you are and where the ridge is was mined by the SRK? Is

16 that what you're saying?

17 A. It was mined both by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and by the

18 army of Republika Srpska. Let me clarify. This is not just a simple

19 ridge. It has a plateau that is about 10 metres wide at some points, and

20 it's at a mild upward slope. It's not just the edge and a ridge. There

21 is space there for people to get up there in order to get to the beginning

22 or the top of the ridge from where they could see the area of Sedrenik,

23 they would need to cross some 10 metres in certain places.

24 In relation to the forces of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 from the left and the right side, this was not possible to do even if the

Page 8460

1 terrain was not mined. So it's not just a simple ridge. It's not just a

2 sharp edge. It's a rock that has its length and width.

3 Q. Sir, are you saying that the plateau was mined?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And so which soldiers did that, the SRK soldiers or the ABiH

6 soldiers?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: He said both.

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, he said both, but I want to

9 establish in particular which area, because --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, what could be seen from our

11 side, from our side behind the ridge was mined by the army of Republika

12 Srpska. The sides of the ridge and up to the top of the ridge were mined

13 by fighters of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.


15 Q. Sir, that's what I'm asking you. The slopes leading up to the top

16 of the ridge were mined by your soldiers. That's what you're saying.

17 A. From our side, yes.

18 Q. And what about the plateau? What about the top of the ridge?

19 A. I don't know how to explain that. This ridge did not have a peak.

20 It's a plateau some 10 metres, more or less, wide. So it doesn't have a

21 literal peak, a summit.

22 Q. Well, I asked you about the plateau. A simple question. Was the

23 plateau mined?

24 A. The plateau was mined by the army of Republika Srpska in the

25 beginning.

Page 8461

1 Q. So what you're telling the Court is that the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina personnel would go up the slope on top of the ridge, on

3 the plateau and expose themselves and lay mines. Is that what you're

4 saying?

5 A. That's not what I said. That's not what I said.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: He said that -- he said the plateau was mined by

7 the army of Republika Srpska in the beginning.

8 Q. No, he said the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. President. At

9 least that's what the transcript said.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. No, he said -- the answer at line 21: "The

11 plateau was mined by the army of Republika Srpska in the beginning."

12 MR. SACHDEVA: Excuse me. I apologise. That was inadvertent.

13 Q. So I take it if the SRK mined this area, they obviously knew where

14 the mines were; is that right?

15 A. I'm sure that they didn't know about all the mines, because at the

16 beginning, as I already said in answer to Mr. Tapuskovic's question, the

17 units that were there, the people in those units did not have -- they were

18 not organised into units. So everybody laid mines as they saw fit in

19 order to prevent the BH army forces from pouring over the ridge. So they

20 could have known about some mines but not all of them, and that's why I

21 can really vouch for them never going into that plateau at all.

22 Q. Sir, did you yourself lay mines on that ridge?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And I take it you weren't there in 1992 when the mines were laid,

25 were you?

Page 8462

1 A. No.

2 Q. And how do you know that mines were laid there?

3 A. Well, I know that. I heard that from the fighters who laid the

4 mines. So from the stories told to me by those soldiers who laid down

5 those mines.

6 Q. So your evidence is that mines would be laid in Sarajevo-Romanija

7 Corps territory, but that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers would not

8 really know where those mines were?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand that -- that's his evidence.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: That's what -- that's, in my submission, what the

11 witness said, Mr. President, that -- that these mines were laid by -- by

12 the Serb forces in the beginning, but they weren't -- people did not know

13 or the soldiers did not know where all these mines were.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's your answer to that, Witness?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to this is as follows:

16 When I said that we were not organised, I meant that these people had not

17 been trained to lay minefields, proper minefields, so they laid mines

18 without making any protocols that could be used later to determine where

19 those mines were laid. And since in those trenches -- the trenches were

20 not always manned by the same people, they took shifts, 24-hour, 48-hour,

21 7-day shifts, it would happen that several people would lay mines in that

22 part of the terrain. That's why I said people knew about some mines but

23 didn't know about other mines. So not all the people there knew about all

24 the mines.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, we're going to take the break now.

Page 8463

1 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva. You're having technical problems?

4 MR. SACHDEVA: I apologise, Mr. President. Yes.

5 Q. Sir, before we broke you were saying that -- that according to

6 your knowledge, although you weren't there, these mines were laid in 1992,

7 at the beginning of the conflict; is that right?

8 A. In 1992. I don't know whether it was in the beginning or later,

9 but it was definitely that year.

10 Q. And so when we spoke about Mr. Nikolic who was a soldier with the

11 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, and when he spoke or gave evidence under oath about

12 an observation point on the ridge or very close to the ridge itself in

13 1993 and 1994, he either would have had to negotiate the mines or knew

14 where the mines were or in fact the mines were not there.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] When my learned friend

17 Mr. Sachdeva put the question, Your Honours, he said "close to the ridge

18 or on the ridge itself." So is it near the ridge or on the ridge? This

19 has to be specified. Mr. Sachdeva said that the observation point was

20 placed close to the ridge or on the ridge, and it's important to be

21 certain about what the witness said. Was it on the ridge or close to the

22 ridge?

23 MR. SACHDEVA: I'll reformulate the question.



Page 8464

1 Q. Witness, what I'm suggesting to you is that Mr. Nikolic testified

2 that in 1993 and 1994, there was a position, an observation position, a

3 surveillance position, on the ridge or at least located on the ridge that

4 would permit SRK troops to look down onto the village of Sedrenik. That's

5 the evidence the witness gave, and what I'm asking you now, that either he

6 must have been able to negotiate the mines that you say were laid, or in

7 fact, there indeed were no mines that prevented the soldiers from coming

8 up to the ridge. What do you say to that?

9 A. Let me just say one thing regarding --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. When counsel is on his feet, you

11 have to stop speaking.

12 Mr. Tapuskovic.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It's

14 fine that my learned colleague Mr. Sachdeva is insisting on it and

15 confronting the witness with this testimony, but perhaps he could give us

16 a page reference so that we could respond to it. What page of the

17 transcript is this part of the evidence referred to by Mr. Sachdeva?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva, what's the page.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: It's the transcript page 16067.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Excuse me. 16067, 16045, on the 21st of November,

22 2002. And indeed -- indeed it is also mentioned in paragraph 511 of the

23 Galic judgement.

24 Q. Sir, you were about to answer the question, or do you need me

25 to -- to repeat the question?

Page 8465

1 A. No. There's no need. This ridge, this is sheer rock. It is

2 impossible to set up any observation post there even had not this terrain

3 been mined. I know that this was mined, however, and I know that there

4 was no observation post at this plateau.

5 Q. You know that they were -- you know that it was not -- you know

6 that it was mined because you were told stories about that. You weren't

7 there when it was allegedly mined, were you?

8 A. No.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I have one second to confer,

10 please.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for Defence Exhibit 319 to be shown.

13 I believe that's the second photograph. And if I could have a moment to

14 fix my headphones I would be grateful.

15 Q. Sir, you remember this photograph that you marked?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you remember those two arrows you have drawn coming up from

18 the -- the lines that you have marked as ABiH lines, those two arrows?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those arrows indicate where a gully or a -- well, I'll use the

21 word "gully" because I think that's what counsel for the Defence used.

22 Those arrows depict or they indicate where the gully was; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could I ask you to take a pen and just put a "G" by both those

25 arrows, please.

Page 8466

1 A. [Marks]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I ask for this photograph to be

4 admitted as a Prosecution exhibit with the new markings.


6 JUDGE HARHOFF: What does it show that is not already there?

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, I -- I would like to explain that.

8 However, with your leave, I would like to explain that in a manner that

9 the -- that the witness does not hear. So perhaps I could ask for the

10 witness to take off his headphones and I can explain that to you, why I

11 ask the specific question. I would be happy to, but I wouldn't want to --

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: We will all wait in suspense, so please go ahead

13 and put the question or -- just go ahead.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: You want me to go ahead and explain to you or to

15 carry on?

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, carry on.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Has the -- can I ask for a number to be given to

18 the photograph if it hasn't been done already?


20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll admit that as P908.


22 Q. Now, Witness --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's already been admitted into

25 evidence, but we should have continued with the questions, because we have

Page 8467

1 to see why those two positions are marked. I can't see the purpose of

2 those two marks that were made.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: We have ruled on the matter, Mr. Tapuskovic, and

4 we have allowed the Prosecution to -- to go ahead. And as I said, we will

5 all wait with suspense to what comes out of it.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Sachdeva.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, you were asked -- answering questions about the -- the

9 combat operation on the 19th of September, 1994. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you testified that you were yourself involved in that

12 operation.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Incidentally, what types of weapons did you personally have when

15 you were involved in combat operations?

16 A. An automatic rifle.

17 Q. And what type was that please?

18 A. It was an M-72 automatic rifle.

19 Q. And you remember that Mr. Tapuskovic showed you a document from

20 the ABiH, and you confirmed the contents of that document. You remember

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for D156 to be -- to be brought up,

24 please.

25 Q. Now, sir, the first thing I want to draw your attention to is that

Page 8468

1 if we look at the -- the text under item 2 which says "Nase snege," "Our

2 Forces." And it's right is it not, sir, that at the bottom of the page it

3 states that while there may have -- it states and I'm summarising, while

4 there may have been combat activity on that date, in the end the

5 Sarajevo-Romanija forces retook the part of Spicasta Stijena that they

6 lost during the day. Isn't that right?

7 A. That's what it says here.

8 Q. And, in fact, do you remember giving evidence yourself that, I

9 think you said, within a couple of days it was retaken by the Serb forces.

10 You remember that?

11 A. I said that we had lost two or three trenches in that stretch that

12 we held, but I hadn't said that we had lost the ridge or that the BH

13 forces had taken the ridge. On the map that I was shown last, before this

14 document, that is why I made those two lines that marked those passages,

15 those passes to the left and to the right of the Spicasta Stijena, and

16 those two trenches were taken by the BH army. They did not take Spicasta

17 Stijena. The Spicasta Stijena area is a little bit broader.

18 Q. Yes. I didn't say Spicasta Stijena. I said a part of Spicasta

19 Stijena.

20 In any case, the parts that were taken -- the parts that were

21 taken by the ABiH on that day were retaken, weren't they?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, told the Court that, that's at least

24 in the trenches or in that area, there were only infantry weapons, that

25 you only had infantry weapons. Do you remember saying that?

Page 8469

1 A. Yes, in the trenches.

2 Q. But nevertheless at least in this operation, the Sarajevo-Romanija

3 Corps did indeed draw upon artillery support. In other words, 80 to

4 122-millimetre mortars to retake or to fight in that combat operation.

5 Isn't that right?

6 A. The 80-millimetre mortars were used, but as for the 120-millimetre

7 mortars, those were among the weapons that had to be withdrawn 20

8 kilometres into the depth.

9 Q. Well, we'll move into that in a moment, but you will see in the

10 text here that it refers to the use by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of

11 80 -- well, 60-millimetre mortars, 82-millimetre mortars, and

12 120-millimetre mortars.

13 A. That's what they say. That's what they write.

14 Q. And you have --

15 A. That's their report and that's what it says there. I'm telling

16 you what happened.

17 Q. But you just confirmed -- you have confirmed -- you have confirmed

18 this report in your evidence-in-chief, didn't you?

19 A. I confirmed the report along the lines that I was asked -- that

20 Mr. Tapuskovic asked me about the attack, about the date, and I confirmed

21 that the attack really did take place on that date, and in this sense I

22 confirmed the accuracy of this document.

23 Q. But you agree that in this operation 82-millimetre mortars were

24 used, and 60-millimetre mortars?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8470

1 Q. Sir, I understand that in your time in the JNA you were with an

2 anti-tank platoon. You were a gunnery -- or you were involved in the

3 gunnery department; is that right?

4 A. While I was in the Yugoslav People's Army, I was in the infantry.

5 I was not in the armoured units, I was in infantry. Plain and simple. As

6 far as I know, the 60- and 82-millimetre mortars were weapons used by the

7 infantry, just plain infantry.

8 Q. Well, sir, isn't it correct that in 1992, you indeed were an

9 assistant gunner in the JNA in an anti-tank platoon in Donja Dubica?

10 A. In Donja Dubica. No.

11 Q. Nevertheless, sir, you know that an 82-millimetre mortar, with the

12 charges that can be placed on such a mortar, may -- has possibly a maximum

13 range of three to four kilometres. Do you agree with that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you also know that the heavy weapons exclusion zone agreement

16 strictly prohibited the use of 82-millimetre mortars. They came under the

17 heavy weapons exclusion zone, didn't they?

18 A. I am not sure that that was the case.

19 Q. Nevertheless, in September 1994, the SRK deployed 82-millimetre

20 mortars. You agree with that?

21 A. 82-millimetre mortars, we had them. I don't know whether they had

22 been moved out.

23 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that -- I suggest to you that they were not

24 moved out.

25 A. Well, they were not moved out. I said that I -- we had

Page 8471

1 82-millimetre mortars.

2 Q. Now, with respect -- and I'm sticking on to -- to weaponry. As

3 you've said to the Court, you were -- you were the assistant to the

4 commander of operations in training; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I take it that your job was to assist -- well, in assisting

7 the operations commander, you would be -- you would plan with him how to

8 effect or how to implement combat operations that the brigade commander

9 would -- would decide upon. Is that a clear enough question, sir?

10 A. The question is clear, but what you're putting to me is not

11 accurate, not in the form that you just put it.

12 Q. Well, let me ask you this: The brigade commander would suggest a

13 course of action, a course of combat action, and your job or your unit's

14 job was to ensure the best and most efficient way for that action to take

15 place. Would you agree with that?

16 A. No. What you're saying, it could apply had we carried out

17 offensive actions, but since our forces carried out only defensive actions

18 we couldn't have foreseen any situation that would arise out of actions by

19 the BH army and then plan our response. We could only carry out work to

20 strengthen our positions, and we were not in a position to carry out any

21 offensives.

22 Q. Well, sir, are you saying to the Court that when there were combat

23 operations, whether initiated by the ABiH, in other words, the SRK had to

24 respond, the brigade commander would not task his operations unit to

25 devise the most efficient way to defend the territory? That must have

Page 8472

1 happened, didn't it?

2 A. Precisely. But the orders were very brief. Let me just tell you

3 what it looked like.

4 Q. If you allow me to finish, sir. So in deciding, or at least for

5 your unit to decide upon how best to defend the territory, it would be

6 incumbent upon the operations -- it would be --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- Incumbent upon the operations manager to have knowledge of the

9 weapons and ammunition at the brigade's disposal. Isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sir, I want to show you another document, but before I do that let

12 me ask you a question. In your time at the 3rd -- in the 3rd Sarajevo

13 Brigade in your role, and, you know, you've spoken about mortars and other

14 weapons, you must have heard about the deployment or the existence of

15 modified air bombs within your brigade.

16 A. I don't understand. What does it mean modified bomb?

17 Q. I'm speaking about a weapon called Fugasna Avio Bomba, modified

18 air bomb. Have you ever heard of those weapons before?

19 A. I did hear about air bombs. I didn't hear about modified air

20 bombs.

21 Q. Have you heard of the term F-A-B, FAB, 250-kilogrammes FAB,

22 150-kilogrammes. Did you ever see that in documents, did you ever hear

23 about that?

24 A. Could you please clarify what does it mean, FAB?

25 Q. Well, firstly, can you answer the question? Did you ever hear of

Page 8473

1 the term FAB or did you ever see it written down FAB 250, FAB 105?

2 A. I may have heard that term. I don't think so, but at any rate I

3 never saw it written down.

4 Q. And when you -- you said you may have heard of that term. I

5 suggest to you and would you agree with my suggestion that the FAB stands

6 for and please excuse my pronunciation, but Fugasna Avio Bomba?

7 A. I heard about this term Fugasna Avio Bomba.

8 Q. Thank you. Fugasna Avio Bomba. And when you say you heard about

9 this term, I take it you heard about this term and this term for this

10 weapon during your time at the brigade?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When did you hear about this?

13 A. While I was in the army.

14 Q. When you were in the brigade you were in the army, weren't you?

15 A. That's what it looks like now, but it was a little bit different.

16 Q. Sir, I want to show you a document. If I could ask for --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean by the army?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say the word "army,"

19 "armija," I'm referring to the regular army of a state that is garrisoned

20 in barracks and where people work as soldiers. This is the regular army

21 of a state. I'm talking about professional soldiers.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness

24 misunderstood. Of course, your intervention is very apropos, but perhaps

25 the witness should explain which army he had in mind.

Page 8474

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer about where I had heard

2 about FAB, I meant that I had heard it when I was doing my national

3 service in the Yugoslav People's Army.


5 MR. SACHDEVA: If I may ask for -- if I may ask for Prosecution

6 Exhibit 761 to be brought up on the screen, please.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What years were that, Witness, when you were

8 doing your national service in the Yugoslav People's Army?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1985.


11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, you've heard about FABs,

12 haven't you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right.

15 Mr. Sachdeva.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Bozic, you'll see a document on your screen, and it is a

18 document from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command. Do you see that there?

19 On the 17th of June, 1995.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's signed by Cedo Sladoje who was the chief of staff at the

22 time. Isn't that right?

23 A. That's what it says.

24 Q. And you'll see there that it says that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

25 command is ordering the delivery of three pieces FAB 105 kg, two pieces

Page 8475

1 FAB 250 kg, ordering for those supplies to be given to the 3rd Sarajevo

2 Brigade. You see, at least that's what it says there, don't you?

3 A. Yes, that's what it says there.

4 Q. And with this document on your screen and with this information,

5 and in your role within the operations department or the operations unit

6 of your brigade command, is it still your evidence that at any time during

7 the period 1994 to 1995 you did not hear about the existence, the use, the

8 deployment of these FAB bombs?

9 A. You said in 1994 and 1995.

10 Q. Yes. You can -- you can focus on those years, but in fact I will

11 ask you from 1992 to 1995. In other words, during the conflict.

12 A. Those are air bombs. So as far as I know, our units did not have

13 any aircraft, and these bombs are used by the aircraft. I really can't

14 see how those bombs could be used at all. So everything that's written

15 here in this text looks ridiculous to me.

16 Q. So you're saying what has emanated from the Sarajevo Corps

17 command, from the chief of staff, is ridiculous. That's your evidence?

18 A. It's not ridiculous, but it's strange. I can't see anyway in

19 which they could be used.

20 Q. Well, sir, they could be modified, couldn't they?

21 A. Well, you didn't explain that to me, what modified means.

22 Q. Well, perhaps -- perhaps I will, then. What I suggest to you is

23 this, sir, that these bombs, as you say, are designed to be dropped from

24 aeroplanes, and as you say, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps did not have

25 aeroplanes. We agree on that, don't we?

Page 8476

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. However, during the period -- during the conflict, and in

3 particular during 1994 and 1995, these bombs were modified in a way that

4 would enable them to be launched with rockets and fired from the ground.

5 A. I can state that I never saw such a bomb. I cannot say that this

6 document is not true, but I did not see such bombs, and where I was during

7 the war in 1992 to 1995, I don't know about such bombs being used.

8 Q. Sir, I appreciate that you did not see such a bomb, and I

9 appreciate also that you don't know that such bombs were used, but what

10 I'm asking you is whether you were aware or whether you heard that these

11 bombs existed within your brigade.

12 A. This document is probably true, but I did not hear that there were

13 bombs in the brigade. I don't know if they ever reached there as it says

14 on this -- in this document.

15 Q. In your time at the operations unit, did you ever see a document

16 stating that the delivery was not successful? Did you ever see such a

17 document, sir?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, before I -- I'm going to conclude very shortly. You remember

20 earlier on in the cross-examination we spoke about the meetings you

21 attended in the brigade headquarters?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you remember that we spoke about a one Miroslav Krajisnik who

24 was the commander for religious and morale affairs?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8477

1 Q. And you also remember that to your knowledge -- you remember that

2 to your knowledge for some point in time while you were at the brigade, he

3 was responsible for liaison -- liaising with UNPROFOR. Do you remember

4 saying that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, in addition to the information that was discussed at these

7 meetings with respect to the allegations from the media about sniping and

8 shelling civilians in Sarajevo -- you remember we discussed that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik in those meetings that you were present or

11 indeed if you had -- if you have heard about those meetings where you

12 weren't there, did he ever bring up the issue of protests by UNPROFOR

13 about the shelling and sniping of civilians by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

14 and by your brigade?

15 A. I cannot remember. Perhaps I wasn't present at those meetings.

16 Q. Well, sir, let me -- let me just try and probe you a bit further.

17 You say you cannot remember, but try and think carefully. Was -- was

18 there a time where it may have been mentioned, where it might have been

19 mentioned? Firstly, while you were at the meetings; and secondly, whether

20 you discussed it with colleagues after the meetings when you weren't

21 present?

22 A. I don't know anything about that. I cannot tell you if I did hear

23 or didn't. I really cannot say. The question is not that clear to me.

24 Q. Witness, in your brigade and also -- well, in your brigade were

25 there any specific orders or instructions in place about the way soldiers

Page 8478

1 had to engage their targets, or in other words, when and how to open fire?

2 Maybe we can categorise these instructions as rules of engagement. Did

3 you receive such orders or do you know of such orders being rendered and

4 delivered?

5 A. I cannot confirm whether these orders were in written form, but

6 there were certainly oral orders that it was permissible to fire at

7 strictly military targets. No firing at civilians or at facilities,

8 buildings that were not military facilities.

9 Q. And when you say that it was permissible to fire at strictly

10 military targets, that is indeed what -- what the soldiers -- what you

11 did, isn't it?

12 A. Would you please repeat your question?

13 Q. I'm saying that's what you did. You did fire at military targets.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And so if you were in a position with your gun and you had an ABiH

16 soldier in your sight, you would take him out, wouldn't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And so therefore, sir, it's correct that that would not be

19 categorised as a defensive operation, would it?

20 A. It's war.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Might I have one second to confer, please.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're seven minutes over the time now, so you

24 must conclude.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. I have two more questions.

Page 8479

1 Q. Sir, just one last question on this topic. When you -- when you

2 said it was war, did you consider that able-bodied men between the ages of

3 20 and 60 were legitimate targets? Did you shoot at those persons?

4 A. All those people in the age range that you mentioned, from 20 to

5 60, if they were soldiers they would be in uniform with weapons.

6 Q. Would you shoot a soldier who was not armed?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And lastly, sir, you spoke about the verbal orders that you

9 received with respect to firing at military targets. I take it that those

10 orders remained -- or the content of those orders and the meaning of those

11 orders remained constant from 1992 through to 1995; is that right?

12 A. They were always in force, but I don't know if it was always

13 possible to control or check a hundred per cent on them.

14 Q. So you're saying that it was possible that people,

15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers, would indeed fire at civilians. Is that

16 what you're saying?

17 A. I'm not saying that, but I say that you could not have a hundred

18 per cent control of the action of the soldiers from the trenches at the

19 lines of -- or the trenches of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that completes the

21 cross-examination.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Sachdeva, a while ago we admitted document

23 P908, which was the photo with the two gullies, and we did so under the

24 condition that you would show to us a very good reason to have this photo

25 admitted into evidence. I realise that we have heard no such thing, and

Page 8480

1 my proposal is that we delete Exhibit P908 from the files. I don't know

2 if that is possible, and I need to consult with my colleagues, but I feel

3 a bit deceived that we allowed you to go along with it and then you didn't

4 deliver.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, with respect, I offered to make

6 submissions as to why I was doing that, and I didn't refer to questions

7 that I'm going to put to the witness. I had a very specific reason as to

8 why I did that, and I wanted to -- I wanted to inform Your Honours.

9 However, at the time -- at the time of the examination, I wanted to do it

10 so that the witness did not hear, but I'm very happy to -- I'm very happy

11 to explain the purpose behind my markings.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we'll eliminate it.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, in your cross-examination, in answer to

15 a question you said that you could provide an example of media reports

16 being false. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'd like to hear one example.

19 A. I wanted to say the following: Mr. Silajdzic claimed during the

20 war in 1994 and 1995, and he said this in many places, that during the war

21 in Bosnia and Herzegovina over 200.000 people were killed, 200.000

22 Bosniaks. And now we have a situation that the investigation centre, in

23 relation to all of the killed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, so I'm talking

24 about Bosniaks, Serbs, Muslims, and other ethnic groups, came to a figure,

25 and it's hard to speak about people who were killed as numbers, but they

Page 8481

1 came to the number of 100.000, 100.000. And the head of that centre for

2 investigations is a Bosniak. So what I want to say is that this is a

3 substantial lie by a person who was the Minister for Foreign Affairs of

4 his country. He said that throughout the war or in the war 200.000

5 Bosniaks were killed in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Now the number is given

6 which is much less and includes all of the people who were killed.

7 So this is just an indication of information about the events.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, earlier on when we talked

9 about FABs, I didn't want to go on because I didn't want to upset the

10 cross-examination. Would you please tell me what exactly this expression

11 FAB means, because you heard about that in the JNA. What is exactly a

12 FAB?

13 A. Your Honour, I did hear of that term, but I really couldn't give

14 you a correct answer, and that is why I put the question to the

15 Prosecutor, to clarify what FAB, F-A-B, means. I know it's a type of an

16 air bomb, but what kind I don't know.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Do you know whether the JNA used

18 that type of bomb?

19 A. I don't know.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm -- I apologise for rising, but

23 I -- I would -- because -- I would like to explain why I asked those

24 questions, because I -- it was not at all my intention or the

25 Prosecution's intention to enter into any sort of deception, so I would

Page 8482

1 like to explain, and there was a very -- in my submission, there was a

2 very legitimate reason why I asked those questions.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I believe you are entitled to give the

4 explanation.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: When -- when counsel for Defence asked the witness

6 to mark the ABiH lines, he did so with the line going underneath the

7 photograph, and then the counsel asked about the -- the geographical

8 features, the gullies or the indentations and they were marked. And I

9 simply wanted that -- those gullies to be marked as distinct from the ABiH

10 lines, because that's not what, in my submission, the witness answered to

11 and that's the reason why -- that's the reason why I had it done that way,

12 so it would not be mixed up with the ABiH lines.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, we accept the explanation, and

16 there's no -- no question at all or doubt about your integrity.

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just briefly like to go

20 back, because in any case, we cannot have a new witness today, although

21 there are 10 minutes left, but this next witness has protective measures,

22 so we would need time to prepare.

23 I didn't even want to put any questions, but we do have some time

24 available, so I might as well.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, that is not the basis on which

Page 8483

1 court time is to be used. You must have proper, relevant questions.

2 We're not going to accommodate padding to make up time. If you don't have

3 any questions, you don't have any questions.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I was

5 not quite precise when I said this, and I did have a document here. It's

6 document P671. I would like to look at it again. I would have two

7 questions to put to the witness on this document.

8 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This has to do with the bombs,

10 and the document. First of all, did he ever see that document? Did he

11 ever see a written document of similar contents?

12 Q. Can you please answer that first? Can you tell the Judges?

13 A. This document is of the -- dated the 17th of June, 1995. Two days

14 before, on the 15th of June, an offensive began on positions of the army

15 of Republika Srpska. So I was not in the brigade. I was out in the

16 field, so I was not able to see this document.

17 Q. Very well. And now can you please look at what is in the

18 document. After the paragraph saying to whom the document should be

19 delivered, please look at the next paragraph where it says: "Pursuant to

20 the decision of the SRK Commander, you are to hand over immediately ..."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And then can you please look at the last paragraph which says:

24 "The materiel is to be sent to Semizovac immediately," and then it says:

25 "Inform the command about this immediately."

Page 8484

1 Can you see from this document if anything was done in relation to

2 what is actually said in this document?

3 A. The order exists, but we don't have any return information.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you about these

5 reports that you talked about. Referring to the civilians which as was

6 reported in the media were casualties. Was there any mention of children

7 as casualties and, if yes, do you know the number?

8 A. In war?

9 Q. What did the media report, the media of the army of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina or, let's say, the media of the Bosniak, the Muslim side?

11 A. From what I can recall, during the war in 1992 to 1995, it was

12 said that from 8 to 10.000 children were killed and that a few -- and a

13 few months ago, they unveiled a monument in the town of Sarajevo to the

14 children who were killed.

15 Q. In the meetings when it was discussed, you mentioned Josipovic,

16 did you ever discuss or agree to fire at children or civilians?

17 A. No.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

19 questions for this witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

21 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are six minutes before the end of the session.

24 The next witness is a protected witness, and it will take about 20

25 minutes to prepare, so we'll adjourn until tomorrow, 2.15.

Page 8485

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day

4 of July, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.