Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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  3   Friday, 31st May 1996

  4   Before: JUDGE JORDA (The Presiding Judge) JUDGE ODIO BENITO



  7   MR. ERIC OSTBERG and MR. MARK HARMON appeared on behalf of

  8   the Office of the Prosecutor

  9   MR. JOVAN BABIC appeared on behalf of the Defence

 10   (Open Session) (9.00 a.m.)

 11   THE PRESIDING JUDGE [Original in French]: Turning to the Registrar,

 12   first, I would like to be sure that the interpretation is going

 13   through and that everybody is hearing. Does everybody hear me?

 14   Prosecution? Registrar? Mr. Babic? The accused? Do you hear?

 15   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC [Original in Serbo-Croat]: Yes.

 16   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Turning to the Registrar, would you please call

 17   the case on our agenda this morning?

 18   THE REGISTRAR [Original in French]: This is case IT-96-22-PT, the

 19   Prosecutor of this Tribunal against Drazen Erdemovic.

 20   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Registrar. For this hearing we have

 21   the initial appearance. Pursuant to Rule 62, I would like to ask,

 22   first of all, who is representing Office of the Prosecution?

 23   MR. OSTBERG: I am Eric Ostberg; I appear this morning with my learned

 24   friend Mr. Mark Harmon.

 25   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Defence?

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  1   MR. BABIC [Original in Serbo-Croat]: The Defence is represented by

  2   Jovan Babic, a solicitor from Yugoslavia.

  3   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. The accused, would

  4   you rise, please, and state your identity? Mr. Erdemovic, date of

  5   your birth, your nationality, the place of your birth and where you

  6   are currently residing or where you were currently residing before

  7   you were transferred to the Tribunal.

  8   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: My name is Drazen Erdemovic. I was born in

  9   Tuzla in 1971. I am a Croat by nationality. Before coming to The

 10   Hague, I was an inhabitant of the Republika Srpska.

 11   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. This initial hearing is based

 12   on the rules and our statutes, specifically Articles 20 and 21 of the

 13   Statute of the Tribunal, 21(B) devoted the rights of the accused and

 14   62, having the rules of procedure and evidence, which provides that

 15   as soon as the accused has had the indictment confirmed by the

 16   confirming judge, the accused must be presented to a Trial Chamber

 17   which is composed of judges who did not confirm the indictment. First

 18   of all, I would like to turn to Mr. Babic: Mr. Babic, have you

 19   received a copy of the indictment in a language which you understand

 20   and which, of course, the accused understands?

 21   MR. BABIC: Yes, your Honour. We have received the text of the

 22   indictment in Serbo-Croatian and both the accused and myself have

 23   understood it.

 24   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Please remain standing. I would like to ask you

 25   another question. Have you deliberated a long time about the contents

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  1   of this indictment with the accused and explained what defence

  2   strategy can be used, which you are going to use with him?

  3   MR. BABIC: With my client, I spent some time, several hours, studying

  4   the indictment and studying his rights according to the Statute and

  5   Rules of the Tribunal. I think that he had enough time to comprehend

  6   what he is charged with by this indictment and to understand his

  7   rights on that basis.

  8   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Babic. You may be seated. Mr.

  9   Erdemovic, would you please rise? You have heard what you your

 10   counsel has just said. On behalf of my colleagues and on behalf of

 11   the International Tribunal, I would like to ask you the same

 12   question, the one that I asked your attorney: Have you read the

 13   indictment, have you had the opportunity, have you had the time, to

 14   speak about it with Mr. Babic? Have the facts in that indictment been

 15   presented to you, have they been presented to you in a language which

 16   you understand, that is, Serbo-Croat?

 17   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: Yes, your Honour. Yes.

 18   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Were you reminded as well that before this

 19   international court you could be defended equitably and in public? Do

 20   you understand the scope of these terms?

 21   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: Your Honour, allow me to explain. Before the

 22   indictment was issued against me

 23   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Erdemovic, for the moment, like

 24   everybody in this Tribunal, I am following rules which are the Rules

 25   of our Statute, the Rules of the International Tribunal. This is a

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  1   procedure which is applied for all accused. You have been accused

  2   before this Tribunal. I would like to be sure about a certain number

  3   of conditions. It is self-evident the Tribunal will listen to any

  4   statement that you wish to make and you will have the opportunity to

  5   make them at the point when the Tribunal orders you to do so. For the

  6   moment you may be seated, Mr. Erdemovic. I would like now, pursuant

  7   to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, to ask the Registrar to read

  8   the indictment.

  9   THE REGISTRAR: The Prosecutor of the Trial Chamber against Drazen

 10   Erdemovic. Indictment. The Prosecutor of the International Criminal

 11   Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, pursuant to his authority under

 12   Article 18 of the Statute of the Tribunal charges: Drazen Erdemovic

 13   with a Crime Against Humanity or, alternatively, a Violation of the

 14   Laws or Customs of War, as set forth below: On 16th April 1993, the

 15   Security Council of the United Nations, acting pursuant to Chapter

 16   VII of the United Nations Charter, adopted resolution 819, in which

 17   it demanded that all parties to the conflict in the Republic of

 18   Bosnia and Herzegovina treat Srebrenica and its surroundings as a

 19   safe area which should be free from any armed attack or any other

 20   hostile act. Resolution 819 was reaffirmed by resolution 824 on 6th

 21   May 1993 and by resolution 836 on 4th June 1993. On or about 6th July

 22   1995, the Bosnian Serb army commenced an attack on the UN "safe area"

 23   of Srebrenica. This attack continued through until 11th July 1995,

 24   when the first units of the Bosnian Serb army entered Srebrenica.

 25   Thousands of Bosnian Muslim civilians who remained in Srebrenica

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  1   during this attack fled to the UN compound in Potocari and sought

  2   refuge in and around the compound. Between 11th and 13th July 1995,

  3   Bosnian Serb military personnel summarily executed an unknown number

  4   of Bosnian Muslims in Potocari and Srebrenica. Between 12th and 13th

  5   July 1995, the Bosnian Muslim men, women and children who had sought

  6   refuge in and around the UN compound in Potocari were placed on buses

  7   and trucks under the control of Bosnian Serb military personnel and

  8   police and transported out of the Srebrenica enclave. Before boarding

  9   these buses and trucks, Bosnian Muslim men were separated from

 10   Bosnian Muslim women and children and were transported to various

 11   collection centres around Srebrenica. A second group of approximately

 12   15,000 Bosnian Muslim men, with some women and children, fled

 13   Srebrenica on 11th July 1995 through the woods in a large column in

 14   the direction of Tuzla. A large number of the Bosnian Muslim men who

 15   fled in this column were captured by or surrendered to Bosnian Serb

 16   army or police personnel. Thousands of Bosnian Muslim men who had

 17   been either separated from women and children in Potocari or who had

 18   been captured by or surrendered to Bosnian Serb military or police

 19   personnel were sent to different collection sites outside of

 20   Srebrenica including, but not limited to, a hangar in Bratunac, a

 21   soccer field in Nova Kasaba, a warehouse in Kravica, the primary

 22   school and gymnasium of "Veljko Lukic-Kurjak" in Grbavci, Zvornik

 23   municipality and diverse fields and meadows along the Bratunac-Milici

 24   road. Between 13th July 1995 and approximately 22nd July 1995,

 25   thousands of Bosnian Muslim men were summarily executed by members of

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  1   the Bosnian Serb army and Bosnian Serb police at diverse locations

  2   including, but not limited to, a warehouse at Kravica, a meadow and a

  3   dam near Lazete and diverse other locations. On or about 16th July

  4   1995, Drazen Erdemovic other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment

  5   of the Bosnian Serb army were ordered to a collective farm near

  6   Pilica. The farm is located northwest of Zvornik in the Zvornik

  7   Municipality. On or about 16th July 1995, Drazen Erdemovic and other

  8   members of his unit were informed that bus loads of Bosnian Muslim

  9   civilian men from Srebrenica, who had surrendered to Bosnian Serb

 10   military or police personnel, would be arriving throughout the day at

 11   this collective farm. On or about 16th July 1995, buses containing

 12   Bosnian Muslim men arrived at the collective form in Pilica. Each bus

 13   was full of Bosnian Muslim men, ranging from approximately 17-60

 14   years of age. After each bus arrived at the farm, the Bosnian Muslim

 15   men were removed in groups of about 10, escorted by members of the

 16   10th Sabotage Detachment to a field adjacent to farm buildings and

 17   lined up in a row with their backs facing Drazen Erdemovic and

 18   members of his unit. On or about 16th July 1995, Drazen Erdemovic did

 19   shoot and kill and did participate with other members of his unit and

 20   soldiers from another brigade in the shooting and killing of unarmed

 21   Bosnian Muslim men at the Pilica collective farm. These summary

 22   executions resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Bosnian Muslim male

 23   civilians. The Accused. Drazen Erdemovic was born on 25th November

 24   1971 in the municipality of Tuzla. He was a soldier in the 10th

 25   Sabotage Detachment of the Bosnian Serb army. He is currently in

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  1   custody in the UN detention facility in The Hague. General

  2   allegations. At all relevant times to this indictment, a state of

  3   armed conflict and partial occupation existed in the Republic of

  4   Bosnia and Herzegovina in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

  5   Drazen Erdemovic is individually responsible for the crime alleged

  6   against him in this indictment pursuant to Article 7(1) of the

  7   Statute of the Tribunal. Individual criminal responsibility includes

  8   committing, planning, instigating, ordering or otherwise aiding and

  9   abetting in the planning, preparation or execution of any crimes

 10   referred to in Articles 3 and 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal.

 11   Counts 1 and 2 (Crime Against Humanity) (Violation of the Laws or

 12   Customs of War). By his acts in relation to the events described in

 13   paragraph 12, Drazen Erdemovic committed: Count 1: A Crime Against

 14   Humanity punishable under Article 5(a) (murder) of the Statute of the

 15   Tribunal. Alternatively, count 2: A violation of the Laws or Customs

 16   of War punishable under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal and

 17   recognised by Article 3(1)(a) (murder) of the Geneva Conventions.

 18   Signed, Richard Goldstone, Prosecutor of this Tribunal, 22nd May

 19   1996.

 20   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Registrar. Mr. Erdemovic, would you

 21   rise, please? According to what you said before, you understood what

 22   is contained in this indictment as well as the charges against you,

 23   those charges which the Prosecution has made against you. Have you

 24   spoken about these charges with your counsel, Mr. Babic? I am asking

 25   you a question now.

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  2   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you prepared to plead, given the fact that

  3   the Tribunal would like to recall to you that you can plead either

  4   guilty or not guilty? This is the procedure which was adopted in this

  5   Tribunal with it being understood, of course, that the consequences

  6   are not the same. I will explain them to you. If you plead not

  7   guilty, you are entitled to a trial during which, of course, with

  8   your lawyer you will contest the charges and the allegations and the

  9   charges presented against you by the Prosecutor, as I will remind

 10   you. Alternatively, either one or the other violations, crime against

 11   humanity or war crime, violation of laws or customs of war. If you

 12   plead guilty, the trial will continue but completely differently,

 13   which I am sure you understand but which I have to explain to you. At

 14   that point you will have the opportunity during another hearing at a

 15   date which we will set at that point in agreement with everybody, you

 16   will plead guilty but you will plead under other circumstances, that

 17   is, that there were attenuating circumstances, mitigating

 18   circumstances, or aggravating circumstances. Then there will be a

 19   discussion between your attorney and the Prosecution which will not

 20   be same. Having explained this to you, the Tribunal must now ask you

 21   whether you are prepared to plead and do you plead guilty or not

 22   guilty?

 23   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: Your Honour, I have told my counsel that I

 24   plead guilty.

 25   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you plead guilty, I must also ask you another

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  1   question. You heard that in the indictment which was drafted by the

  2   Office of the Prosecution against you, it provides for a charge which

  3   may be one or the other, that either a crime against humanity or a

  4   violation of the laws or customs of war. The text of our Statute

  5   obliges me to ask you whether you are pleading guilty on one of the

  6   charges, that is, there are acts, they were read to you, the Tribunal

  7   understands that you accept these facts and that they have been

  8   classified a certain way legally. This is part of international law.

  9   It is a bit difficult for you, but I will try to explain it to you in

 10   a more simple fashion, that is, there are acts and these are the acts

 11   which you have just recognised that, yes, you were at Srebrenica at

 12   such and such a moment. I think that the Prosecutor will make things

 13   very clear for us. The Prosecutor classifies them, which means that

 14   it determines a certain number of conditions from which a criminal

 15   violation has been charged. At the stage that we are now in these

 16   proceedings, which is at the beginning, the proceedings against you,

 17   Mr. Erdemovic, given the facts as they are today, that is, the fact

 18   that you have recognised what happened, that you were present, the

 19   various acts could either be classified as a crime against humanity

 20   or what we call violations of the laws or customs of war. Having said

 21   this, if there had been a trial, after the Tribunal would decide

 22   what, in fact, you were guilty of or not guilty of. In this case,

 23   since you have just said that you are pleading guilty, I must ask you

 24   if you are pleading guilty to the crime against humanity, that is,

 25   the version of the facts which for the Prosecutor would be a crime

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  1   against humanity, or if it is a violation of the laws or customs of

  2   war. I suppose that you have spoken about this with your attorney?

  3   Mr. Erdemovic, could you answer us on that point which is an

  4   important one?

  5   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: I plead guilty for point one, crime against

  6   humanity.

  7   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated for now, Mr. Erdemovic. The

  8   Tribunal is now noting what you have said. It will have the

  9   opportunity to ask you later on about other questions to make sure

 10   that this has been an honest plea which has been entered. Now I am

 11   turning to the Office of the Prosecution, noting the fact that what

 12   has been said has just been recorded in the records of this hearing

 13   by the Registrar, therefore, Mr. Erdemovic is pleading guilty to the

 14   count, crime against humanity. I believe that we will most likely

 15   reject the other count, that is, violation of the laws or customs of

 16   war. But, before doing so, I would like to turn to the Office of the

 17   Prosecution and ask whether it would like to explain the acts, what

 18   are the facts of which Mr. Erdemovic is being accused and what you

 19   are accusing him of.

 20   MR. OSTBERG: Thank you. Yes, your Honour. We have just heard through

 21   the reading of the indictment by the Registrar the facts behind the

 22   indictment. I would just shortly summarise them and using the words I

 23   used when we the other day had the deferral hearing before another

 24   Trial Chamber: Drazen Erdemovic present here in the courtroom today

 25   was a soldier in the 10th Sabotage Detachment of what was then the

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  1   Bosnian-Serb army. This unit and soldiers from another brigade of the

  2   same army were ordered to this collective farm, which we just heard

  3   of and by the name of Pilica. There he was ordered to go to receive

  4   bus loads of Muslim civilian men who had surrendered or had been

  5   apprehended fleeing from Srebrenica by military or police personnel.

  6   They were brought by these buses to this remote farm. The date was

  7   16th July, 1995. The soldiers ordered to this farm were given the

  8   task to summarily execute those civilian men who were brought on the

  9   buses. These executions at the farm resulted, as we heard in the

 10   indictments, in the death of hundreds of Muslim men. Drazen Erdemovic

 11   was a member of this squad who had the task to execute the people

 12   and, indeed, he did do what he was tasked to do, and took part in the

 13   execution of these people which we have no exact figure of, but we

 14   are talking about hundreds of Muslim men. These, your Honours, are

 15   the facts behind the indictment now put into two different counts.

 16   From the point of view of the Prosecutor, of course, we accept the

 17   plea made today by Erdemovic. Thank you, your Honour.

 18   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Ostberg. Mr. Erdemovic, would you

 19   rise, please? You heard the version of the facts which the Prosecutor

 20   has just stated. Do you agree with what he said, that you were

 21   present on the premises, the way the buses arrived and then the facts

 22   which resulted in the deaths of this still undetermined number of

 23   civilians? Do you agree with what the Prosecution has just stated?

 24   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: I agree with everything that the Prosecutor

 25   has said and I have more to add.

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12  Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts. Pages 28 to 31.













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  1   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want to add something? You may do this

  2   before the Tribunal. You know that from this point on I will explain

  3   to you that there will be another hearing which will the hearing to

  4   determine the penalty which may be applied to you. What would you

  5   like to add, Mr. Erdemovic?

  6   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: Your Honour, I had to do this. If I had

  7   refused, I would have been killed together with the victims. When I

  8   refused, they told me: "If you are sorry for them, stand up, line up

  9   with them and we will kill you too". I am not sorry for myself but

 10   for my family my wife and son who then had nine months, and I could

 11   not refuse because then they would have killed me. That is all I wish

 12   to add.

 13   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: All right, Mr. Erdemovic. Try to get a hold of

 14   yourself. Sit down for a moment. I will ask you some other questions.

 15   Mr. Erdemovic, would you rise, please, again? The Tribunal must be

 16   sure that you know what you are doing because you know that pleading

 17   guilty or not guilty does not have the same consequences. You are

 18   before a Tribunal and the Tribunal must determine a penalty for your

 19   behaviour. At the proper time it will do so and, of course, we will

 20   hear all the parties. We will attempt to organise that hearing in

 21   order to see at the end of this one how we are going to organise the

 22   second one where you can explain yourself, but you cannot go back on

 23   the facts to which you have pleaded guilty. This is finished now and

 24   this is something that the Tribunal wants to be sure you really

 25   understand and that you your plea is sincere. You are represented by

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  1   Mr. Babic. Are you satisfied with his representation, with your

  2   counsel? Have you been able to discuss things with your attorney

  3   under the most desirable conditions?

  4   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: Your Honour, I am satisfied with the

  5   indictment.

  6   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. This is not the indictment now I am talking

  7   about. I want to know whether through the contacts that you have had,

  8   were you able to have counsel of your choice? If I ask you this

  9   question it is because the Tribunal had to appoint counsel that was

 10   not on the list of counsel which the Registrar maintains. You wish to

 11   have Mr. Babic and the Tribunal agreed to your request. Therefore,

 12   you spoke about everything you would use for your defence. Therefore,

 13   from this point on you have given up the right to a trial to

 14   determine whether or not you are guilty. This must be clear to you,

 15   clear between you and the Tribunal. At the same time, do you

 16   understand the penalties which will be imposed on you, if they are,

 17   which is something that the Tribunal will determine? Has Mr. Babic

 18   explained what these penalties consist of? I believe Mr. Babic did

 19   so, but I would like to remind you that the crimes that this Tribunal

 20   is charged with punishing can be punished by a sentence of life

 21   imprisonment. In this respect, I would like the Registrar to read the

 22   relevant Articles of the Statute and of the Rules dealing with the

 23   penalties. You may sit down now. This is a bit long, what has to be

 24   read. Turning to the Registrar, could you read so that the accused

 25   really understands all of our rules and procedures having to do with

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  1   penalties, 24 of the Statute and 101 in the Rules.

  2   THE REGISTRAR: Article 24 of the Statute of the International

  3   Tribunal, Penalties, (1): "The penalty imposed by the Trial Chamber

  4   shall be limited to imprisonment. In determining the terms of

  5   imprisonment, the Trial Chambers shall have recourse to the general

  6   practice regarding prison sentences in the courts of the former

  7   Yugoslavia". Paragraph 2: "In imposing the sentences, the Trial

  8   Chambers should take into account such factors as the gravity of

  9   the offence and the individual circumstances of the convicted

 10   person". Paragraph 3: "In addition to imprisonment, the Trial

 11   Chambers may order the return of any property   and proceeds acquired

 12   by criminal conduct, including by means of duress to their rightful

 13   owners". Rule 101 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, (A): "(A)

 14   Any convicted person may be sentenced to life imprisonment for a term

 15   up to and including the remainder of his life; (B) In determining the

 16   sentence, the Trial Chamber shall take into account the factors

 17   mentioned in Article 24(2) of the Statute, as well as such factors as

 18   (i) any aggravating; (ii) any mitigating circumstance, including the

 19   substantial co-operation with the Prosecution by the convicted person

 20   before or after conviction; (iii) the general practice regarding

 21   prison sentences in the courts of the former Yugoslavia; (iv) the

 22   extent to which any penalty imposed by a court of any state on the

 23   convicted person for the same act has already been served as referred

 24   to in Article 10(3) of the Statute. (C) The Trial Chamber shall

 25   indicate whether multiple sentences shall be served consecutively

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  1   or concurrently; (D) the sentence shall be pronounced in public and

  2   in the presence of the convicted person, subject to sub-rule 102(B).

  3   (E) credit shall be given to the convicted person for the period, if

  4   any, during which the convicted person was detained in custody

  5   pending his surrender to the Tribunal or pending trial or appeal".

  6   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Erdemovic, would you rise again? On behalf

  7   of my colleagues and on behalf the Tribunal, I would like to ask you

  8   before you decided to plead guilty or not guilty whether you were

  9   threatened or promised anything in order to orientate you in one

 10   direction rather than another? Were you told, for example, you must

 11   plead guilty, or you have to do this, you must do that? This is a

 12   question I must ask you.

 13   THE ACCUSED ERDEMOVIC: No, no one threatened me.

 14   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In these conditions then, I believe you can be

 15   seated again, Mr. Erdemovic. The Trial Chamber notes definitively the

 16   plea of guilty by Mr. Erdemovic and asks that it be placed on the

 17   record of this hearing. The Trial Chamber also decides that for the

 18   follow-up of this hearing to work only with count 1, and to reject

 19   and ask the Prosecution whether it has any objection in giving up the

 20   second count?

 21   MR. OSTBERG: No, none, your Honour.

 22   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Babic, do you have any objection to giving

 23   up the second count since it was an alternative? MR. BABIC: No, I have no objection.

 24   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we now have the following situation and I

 25   am saying this so that the accused understands fully what is being

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  1   said. The accused Erdemovic has just pleaded guilty to count 1, crime

  2   against humanity. Therefore, at this point the Tribunal must

  3   determine the appropriate sentence. Of course, the trial is not in a

  4   position to pronounce this sentence since it does not have a great

  5   many elements that it needs, elements which no longer have to do with

  6   guilt but have to do with the personality of Erdemovic and also of

  7   the environment and the context of motivation which was present when

  8   the acts were committed as related by the Prosecution in the

  9   indictment. Mr. Registrar, would you now read us Rule 100 which will

 10   determine how we will set up the hearing, which will take us to the

 11   hearing.

 12   THE REGISTRAR: Rule 100, pre-sentencing procedure: "If a Trial

 13   Chamber finds the accused guilty of a crime, the Prosecutor and the

 14   Defence may submit any relevant information that may assist the Trial

 15   Chamber in determining an appropriate sentence".

 16   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Registrar. I would now like to

 17   consult very briefly with my colleagues at the Bench. (The Judges conferred)

 18   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Tribunal has deliberated and has taken the

 19   decision, first, having to do with the organisation of the hearing

 20   which will lead to a sentence. The Tribunal has just decided that it

 21   will ask for a psychiatric evaluation of Mr. Erdemovic without

 22   prejudice, of course, to the requests which the Office of the

 23   Prosecutor might make or which the Defence might make. But, for the

 24   moment, it will be an evaluation which the Tribunal has ordered.

 25   Registrar, are you capable or in a position to have the accused

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  1   examined by an authorised physician?

  2   THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we can have a psychiatric evaluation

  3   carried out quickly, if the Tribunal so wishes. I believe that a

  4   reasonable time period would be, say, three weeks.

  5   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Tribunal has now ordered a psychiatric

  6   evaluation that can be given to two practitioners, a psychiatrist and

  7   a psychologist. Registrar, would you note in the Minutes of this

  8   hearing that this request has been made and that it will appear in an

  9   order and ask the Registrar to draft this order as quickly as

 10   possible since Mr. Erdemovic must be examined, and for the

 11   organisation of the hearing which will lead to the sentence. During

 12   the hearing the Tribunal must have all information about everything

 13   that Mr. Erdemovic wants to say about the facts which led to his

 14   indictment, the circumstances surrounding it, the motivation

 15   particularly, and as well perhaps to call in witnesses the Prosecutor

 16   must be able to bring in any information which is relevant. I would

 17   first like to turn to the Defence and ask Mr. Babic whether he

 18   intends to request that the Tribunal do this or that or to call in

 19   any number of witnesses?

 20   MR. BABIC: Your Honour, I intend to make two requests and proposals,

 21   two motions. One will be incomplete because it pertains to a witness

 22   of whom my client said that on one occasion during certain

 23   operations, (redacted)

 24   (redacted)

 25   (redacted). This would be very important from

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  1   the standpoint of the elucidation of the character of Mr. Erdemovic.

  2   Mr. Erdemovic only knows the witness's name (redacted) 

  3   (redacted). That is my first motion. I take upon

  4   myself the obligation, but since our communication with

  5   Bosnia-Herzegovina is very difficult and it is highly problematic,

  6   whether the authorities of Bosnia will fulfil a request of this kind

  7   coming from me as the Defence of the accused, I would like to ask if

  8   the court could through the police authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina

  9   trace this witness and call him to a witness at this trial. Secondly,

 10   I fully agree with the decision of the court for psychological and

 11   psychiatric examination of Mr. Erdemovic. These will certainly be

 12   highly qualified experts from the Netherlands. I have absolutely no

 13   reservations regarding the quality of the findings of the experts

 14   from the Netherlands. However, we all know what happened in

 15   Yugoslavia. One of the consequences of all that has happened is that

 16   there are many young people who have suffered very grave

 17   psychological traumas and who simply cannot readjust to the society

 18   in which they live. In view of such a situation, psychologists and

 19   psychiatrists in Yugoslavia were faced with this challenge of

 20   studying the consequences in depth, not only theoretically but also

 21   in practice at various trials of individuals, so that a practice has

 22   developed, a certain amount of scientific knowledge has been gained,

 23   regarding the condition of such persons in Yugoslavia. So I think

 24   that it would be very useful for this court if the expert opinion

 25   could include two experts from Yugoslavia. They are court experts

Page 39

  1   whom I would propose. They are university professors and together

  2   with the Dutch physicians they could jointly give an opinion on the

  3   condition and state of mind of Mr. Erdemovic.

  4   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Turning to the Prosecution, you have heard two

  5   requests from Mr. Babic. The Tribunal has decided to order a

  6   psychiatric evaluation. I am asking the question about whether in the

  7   request for the evaluation Mr. Babic, if necessary, when both parties

  8   are present have Mr. Erdemovic examined. I would like to know what

  9   your opinion is about this, and having to do specially with the first

 10   point, that is, hearing a witness (redacted) in a territory which,

 11   apparently, is difficult to gain access in order to find him. This

 12   would take a certain amount of time and we would like to move quickly

 13   in order to move to the hearing with the sentence. What is your

 14   opinion, please, about the two proposals of the Defence?

 15   MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we believe that both proposals put forward

 16   to the court by Mr. Babic are reasonable and we would support each of

 17   those requests.

 18   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In so far as the Prosecution and the Defence

 19   agree, the evaluation of the Tribunal, I am now turning to the

 20   Registrar, could have added to the list, not 10 people perhaps, but I

 21   would like us to choose two experts that the Tribunal would

 22   designate, a psychiatrist and a psychologist, an expert which is

 23   chosen from a list which Mr. Babic might give to the Registrar. We

 24   have the idea of working that way.

 25   MR. BABIC: I am afraid about the interference of competences between

Page 40

  1   psychologists and psychiatrists because each have their own

  2   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are all afraid of that, Mr. Babic! I do not

  3   think that we can today in such significant and important things. You

  4   understand that judges are not (indecipherable) before they pronounce

  5   sentences. They have to do the best they can. First, I think there is

  6   a list of experts in the Netherlands, in my country as well, in my

  7   colleagues' countries and in your country too. So we have to have

  8   some trust. Paragraphs the important point is knowing whether we can

  9   give you the satisfaction that you want, that is that you can draft a

 10   list quickly and indicate to the Registrar the name of an expert,

 11   whether it is a psychiatrist or a psychologist, who could be listed

 12   to the two experts whom the Trial Chamber will have appointed. The

 13   Tribunal wants to have those two experts, the psychiatrist and

 14   psychologist, and could you could add names to that. The Prosecutor

 15   has no objections to that. Then we will move that way. The second

 16   question is to do everything we can in order to locate this (redacted)

 17   (redacted). I do not know quite what should be done. Perhaps the

 18   Prosecutor knows what to do or the Registrar but, in any case, we

 19   must see one another. Do you have any witnesses that you want to

 20   call, Prosecution?

 21   MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we are in the process at this time of

 22   formulating what witnesses we will present to the court. We are not

 23   in a position at the moment to advise the court, but we do intend to

 24   call some witnesses. We cannot identify them at the moment.

 25   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Babic, do you have any other witnesses? Do

Page 41

  1   you have witnesses?

  2   MR. BABIC: No.

  3   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Tribunal does have a concern. This is the

  4   first time that this is going to happen, the possible, I repeat

  5   possible, sentencing. You understand that the Tribunal must base

  6   itself on the penalties that were in effect in the former Yugoslavia.

  7   So perhaps this is something different to what we are used to, but

  8   the Tribunal would like to have information, a great part of which it

  9   already has. I would like to make things very clear between the

 10   Defence and the Prosecution, that as quickly as possible the Defence

 11   and the Prosecution should draft a short memo about what happened,

 12   specifically with the practices. The texts speak about the practices

 13   used in the former Yugoslavia. Now since this is not something which

 14   we know, there are penalties, there are codes and then there is the

 15   practice, the way these penalties were carried out, and since this

 16   cannot be given to one of the parties without affecting the other, I

 17   would suggest that each of the parties draft a short memorandum. The

 18   Tribunal, of course, since the Tribunal has been established, it has

 19   already done this kind of research, but it does has to be done now

 20   again in a more pragmatic manner. Before closing this hearing and

 21   setting the hearing for the sentences, I would like to first turn to

 22   the Prosecutor: Do you have a date for the hearing during which the

 23   witnesses would be heard, if you do call some, since you said you

 24   were going to call some? We have to schedule the number of days

 25   necessary. Have you already thought about a schedule? The Tribunal's

Page 42

  1   calendar is already filling up and specifically the courtroom. Mr.

  2   Ostberg?

  3   MR. OSTBERG: Yes, thank you, your Honour. We have been looking into

  4   this matter and we are prepared to have these hearings on 8th and 9th

  5   July this year.

  6   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 8th and 9th July. Today is 31st May. We have to

  7   have the report of the psychiatrist and psychologist, and also we

  8   will set a date for receiving their reports. We will receive the

  9   briefs and the memorandums having to do with the practices of the

 10   penalties. So, 8th and 9th July, would that be all right for Mr.

 11   Babic?

 12   MR. BABIC: Yes, your Honour. We have already agreed on this date with

 13   the Prosecution.

 14   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Everybody agrees on 8th and 9th July. Since we

 15   are not really sure that we will have everything finished by 8th and

 16   9th July, I would suggest that we have a status conference between

 17   the Prosecution and Mr. Babic on 24th June at 10.30. 24th June at

 18   10.30. In the meantime, if possible before that, we must have

 19   received the report of the psychiatric evaluation. We will do

 20   research into trying to locate (redacted). We will organise the

 21   hearings of 8th and 9th July and see at that point whether we will be

 22   ready by 8th and 9th July. Are there any other questions? Turning to

 23   the Prosecution, have you any other comments you wish to make?

 24   MR. OSTBERG: Not for the moment, your Honour, thank you.

 25   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Babic, have you any other comments you would

Page 43

  1   like to make?

  2   MR. BABIC: No, thank you.

  3   THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Therefore, I now turn to my colleagues - this

  4   hearing is adjourned. (The hearing is adjourned)