International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Tuesday, 9th June 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

    6 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the registrar please call

    7 the case?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-17/1-T, the

    9 Prosecutor of the Tribunal versus Anto Furundzija.

    10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Furundzija, can you hear me

    11 in a language you understand?

    12 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Your Honours.

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: Appearances as before?

    14 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed they are, Your Honour,

    15 yes.

    16 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You may proceed

    18 with the examination-in-chief.

    19 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Madam President.

    20 Your Honours, good morning. Defence counsel, good

    21 morning. Dr. Mujezinovic, good morning to you.

    22 THE WITNESS: Good morning.


    24 Examined by Mr. Blaxill (continued):

    25 Q. I just have a few further questions for you

  2. 1 relating to the time after the 19th of May when you had

    2 left the Vitez area. Did you re-establish any contacts

    3 as a member of the war presidency after you had left

    4 the area, after the 19th of May?

    5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness,

    6 please.

    7 A. After I left Vitez, I was requested, as the

    8 President of the war presidency, that is the Muslim

    9 side of the Vitez municipality, to make contact with

    10 representatives of the SDA and representatives of the

    11 military command of the BH army and to start

    12 negotiations with the Croatian side, which I refused

    13 because my family at that time was still in Vitez and

    14 they were harassed by the members of the military wing

    15 of the HVO. So I requested that my family move out

    16 from Vitez.

    17 My wife has remained in Vitez, three

    18 children, and my parents, my in-laws. My wife had a

    19 telephone, and she was enabled by the civilian police

    20 in Vitez to make one call per day. She complained of a

    21 number of provocations, break-ins, an attempt of rape

    22 in front of the children and her parents, and this was

    23 the reason why I refused to negotiate; that is, as long

    24 as my children, my wife, and my in-laws were still in

    25 Vitez.

  3. 1 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, were they, in fact, removed

    2 from Vitez, your family?

    3 A. Yes. UNPROFOR representatives went to fetch

    4 my family on two occasions, and once they were visited

    5 by the Red Cross, the International Red Cross; however,

    6 they did not manage to get them out. But finally, they

    7 were removed -- that is, they were exchanged for some

    8 Croat families who lived in Zenica and who wanted to go

    9 to Vitez. I had received a list of families which I

    10 was supposed to take back from Zenica to Vitez. Many

    11 of them didn't want to go, and I had quite a few

    12 problems because of that.

    13 Anyway, my family was eventually exchanged.

    14 It happened at the end of May 1993. And after that, in

    15 the first half of June, I became involved in

    16 negotiations with the Croat side at the British base of

    17 UNPROFOR in Stari Bila near Vitez.

    18 Q. Would you tell me, Doctor, please, who took

    19 part in these negotiations?

    20 A. UNPROFOR organised negotiations, together

    21 with European monitors. I was representing the Muslim

    22 side alongside with Munib Kajmovic and the commander of

    23 the 725th brigade, it's a local Vitez brigade; and the

    24 other side, it was Mr. Ivan Santic, Pero Skopljak,

    25 Maric, Josip Maric, and Joso Grbic who represented the

  4. 1 Croat side.

    2 Q. Doctor, how many times did you hold such

    3 negotiations?

    4 A. I told you that initially I refused in May,

    5 but in June, I took part in negotiations on only one

    6 occasion because we couldn't manage to agree on some

    7 strategic points, and at that level, the negotiations

    8 were stopped. At the time, the negotiations were

    9 conducted on several levels, but I no longer took part

    10 in them.

    11 Q. Would it be true to say that these were

    12 described as peace negotiations; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. You say you've taken part in just one. After

    15 that negotiation in June -- one moment, Doctor. After

    16 that negotiation in June, were the respective armed

    17 forces still in their lines, as you recalled them?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Had there been any general freedom of

    20 movement during that period for civilian people within

    21 Vitez or elsewhere in the region?

    22 MR. MISETIC: I'd object, Your Honours. I

    23 believe he's testified that he's in Zenica at this

    24 time; isn't that right?

    25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed, that is correct.

  5. 1 MR. MISETIC: May 19th? I don't see what

    2 foundation he has laid to establish what type of

    3 freedom of movement there was in Vitez.

    4 MR. BLAXILL: I need not pursue that

    5 question. It's really of small import. I won't cause

    6 an argument of it.

    7 Q. How long did the war presidency remain in

    8 existence, Doctor?

    9 A. The war presidency existed, that is, was

    10 operative, operative until October 1994.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you. I have no further

    12 questions, Ma'am.

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination?

    14 MR. BLAXILL: Except for -- I do apologise.

    15 I have no further questions in open session. There is

    16 one point in respect of which I would like to go into

    17 closed session, if you would be so kind, Ma'am?

    18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we go into closed

    19 session?

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    20 JUDGE MUMBA: The court will rise for ten

    21 minutes.

    22 --- Recess taken at 9.45 a.m.

    23 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.

    24 (Open session)

    25 JUDGE MUMBA: We are in open session. Yes,

  10. 1 Mr. Misetic, cross-examination?

    2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, may it

    3 please the court. Good morning; good morning, council;

    4 good morning, Mr. Witness.

    5 Cross-examined by Mr. Misetic:

    6 Q. Sir, you began your direct examination by

    7 stating that you were a party member of the SDA; is

    8 that correct?

    9 A. Yes, it is.

    10 Q. Can you state again for us what official

    11 positions you had within the party?

    12 A. In 1990, I didn't have any official function

    13 within the SDA and in the first half of '91 as well.

    14 It was only in the month of September that I was

    15 elected vice-president of the executive board of the

    16 SDA branch for Vitez.

    17 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you a document which

    18 we will hand to the registrar to be marked as Defence

    19 number 1. I'd ask you to take a look at that document

    20 and see whether you recognise it.

    21 JUDGE MUMBA: Are there copies for --

    22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, just a moment.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit number 1.

    24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Misetic, really during our

    25 trials if you could endeavour to give copies in English

  11. 1 translated by the official organ and also enough

    2 numbers, three of us plus --

    3 MR. MISETIC: I apologise. I've been trying

    4 to figure out the technical procedures here, and I

    5 apologise for the lack of copies. But I just recently

    6 received these documents and I didn't have time to have

    7 them translated by the registry. I just asked them to

    8 authenticate it and I'll read them, if necessary, as to

    9 what they are and have the translators translate them.

    10 For the purposes of translation to the court,

    11 the top line says: "Decision on the election of the

    12 vice-president of the Vitez SDA. The following are

    13 elected vice-presidents of the SDA branch in Vitez.

    14 (1) Ahmic Mehmed, (2) Muhamed Mujezinovic.

    15 Q. Do you recognise that document, sir?

    16 A. I do. It was signed by the president of SDA

    17 in Vitez, Mr. Munib Kajnovic. I recognised his

    18 signature. Perhaps I was not quite accurate. In the

    19 latter half of 1991, I was not actively involved, but I

    20 did confirm that I had been elected the vice-president

    21 of the SDA in Vitez.

    22 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse my interruption at this

    23 stage, Your Honours, may interrupt or impose with one,

    24 it's not so much an objection to this particular

    25 document, its contents are not that contentious. I'm

  12. 1 concerned at the practise of counsel using a language

    2 which some others in this court do not understand and

    3 then going through interpreters and reading from

    4 documents we don't understand because it could create

    5 simply that which counsel wishes to portray from a

    6 document that only he understands.

    7 I think whatever comes before the court

    8 should go through a process, at least, whereby we all

    9 are working from a commonly understood and agreed

    10 quality and level of understanding in a language of the

    11 Tribunal. As I say, I don't formally object to this

    12 document. It's only confirming a fact which the

    13 witness has already stated. It's not contentious but I

    14 think that practise is contentious and I would ask you

    15 to rule upon it on that basis.

    16 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I may respond.

    17 I agree with counsel. It is not my intention to

    18 continue with the practise. This is just because I

    19 recently came into possession of these documents. In

    20 the future, I will endeavour to have them translated as

    21 fast as possible and used for the court. But rather

    22 than call the witness back at some future time to

    23 authenticate the documents, I thought I would expedite

    24 it.

    25 JUDGE MUMBA: How many more such documents?

  13. 1 MR. MISETIC: And one more document, and

    2 these are just a list of names which translation

    3 wouldn't change the list.

    4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Blaxill, it is taken care

    5 of.

    6 MR. BLAXILL: I think it is. Thank you,

    7 Madam President.

    8 MR. MISETIC: Again, I'd like to show the

    9 witness Defence Exhibit number 2 and ask him to

    10 authenticate it. I have four copies. Again, I

    11 apologise, Your Honour, for not having the fifth.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit number 2.

    13 MR. MISETIC:

    14 Q. Could you take a look at that document,

    15 Mr. Witness? Again, I will read it. The top line

    16 says: "List of nominees to the municipal assembly of

    17 Vitez, the Party for Democratic Action, Vitez." Sir,

    18 were these the list of nominees on October 10, 1990?

    19 A. Yes, this was a list of possible councilmen

    20 representing SDA on the municipal assembly in Vitez for

    21 the elections that took place in November 1990.

    22 Q. Would you please took at number 24 on the

    23 list?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Is that you, sir?

  14. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Thank you. One more question: Is the

    3 document authentic, sir?

    4 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse me. I'm just wondering,

    5 is this document an -- do you have an original document

    6 you're putting or it's just a photocopy? I just wish

    7 to --

    8 MR. MISETIC: It's a copy. I'm asking the

    9 witness to authenticate it.

    10 A. I told you I was not active in the party in

    11 SDA so I can neither deny it nor confirm it.

    12 MR. MISETIC:

    13 Q. ... for the elections in 1990? [Note: First

    14 part of question obliterated by translation.]

    15 A. Yes, that is true, but I did ask them not to

    16 rank me first on the list or amongst the first because

    17 I was not interested. Well, I was nominated --

    18 Q. Although you were not a candidate in the

    19 party, you were not active in the party; is that your

    20 position?

    21 A. Quite. I made a statement sometime in August

    22 or September 1990, SDA for Vitez, but I did not

    23 actively participate in the work. I became its member

    24 but I was not active there. And the executive board of

    25 SDA proposed various candidates, and I knew I figured

  15. 1 on this list, but I had asked them to put me somewhere

    2 towards the end of the list because, at the time, I was

    3 very busy. I wasn't really politically active, and I

    4 thought that the things would move in a completely

    5 different direction.

    6 Q. Is it your position that although you were a

    7 candidate for the party SDA in the elections of 1990,

    8 you were not an active member of the party?

    9 A. I wasn't working actively.

    10 Q. Thank you.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse me, if I may interpose,

    12 Your Honours. This line of questioning started with

    13 the authentication of a document. I suggest that --

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: Which the witness replied to.

    15 MR. BLAXILL: -- The authentication of the

    16 document, Your Honour --

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, he said he can't

    18 say either way.

    19 MR. BLAXILL: Then I'm content if that has

    20 been established.

    21 MR. MISETIC:

    22 Q. Sir, on your direct examination yesterday,

    23 you testified as to the formation of a Council for the

    24 Defence of Muslims?

    25 A. Yes.

  16. 1 Q. Can you tell us again when that council was

    2 established and when it broke up?

    3 A. The council was set up on the 12th of July,

    4 '92 and was operational until, I should say, until

    5 about the establishment of the war presidency.

    6 Q. When was that? When was the war presidency

    7 established again?

    8 A. On the 15th of January, 1993.

    9 Q. What exactly was your role in the Council for

    10 the Defence of Muslims?

    11 A. I was responsible for the organisation of

    12 medical service for all the health care system.

    13 Q. Overall, though, what did the council did?

    14 What was its purpose? What were its objectives? Was

    15 it a form of shadow government?

    16 A. At the time we considered as a consultative

    17 body to the legal authorities elected in 1990 and

    18 individuals who joined that coordinating Council for

    19 the Defence of Muslims were responsible each for a

    20 particular area or a particular sphere of activity in

    21 Vitez and were to inform, to supply the media with

    22 information about the situation with the Muslims, about

    23 the position of the Muslims, individual cases and for

    24 the municipality at large.

    25 Q. And then on the 15th of January, 1993, the

  17. 1 war presidency is established. When did you become

    2 elected president?

    3 A. I was nominated as the president of the

    4 presidency and I accepted that post on the 2nd of

    5 February, '93.

    6 Q. Could you explain what the war presidency

    7 did; what were its functions? Was it a form of shadow

    8 government?

    9 A. No, it was not a shadow government. It was a

    10 genuine government of the Muslim people under wartime

    11 conditions. It was the highest ranking body which

    12 issued orders, communications and conclusions and

    13 commanded the army, the police and everything else. So

    14 it was the supreme body.

    15 Q. Did you have the authority to issue orders

    16 directly to the military, the army of BiH?

    17 A. The military, the army in BiH -- in Vitez and

    18 the police in Vitez were not allowed to do anything

    19 without my authorisation and the authorisation of the

    20 war presidency.

    21 Q. Yes, but my question is: Could you issue an

    22 order directly to the army?

    23 A. Directly? Yes, indirectly, but only with the

    24 consent of all the members of the war presidency. I

    25 could not do it alone and I signed -- I was the one who

  18. 1 signed the decisions of the war presidency, and the

    2 commander of the Vitez Brigade was also a member of the

    3 war presidency and that brigade was made of Muslims.

    4 Q. Who made up the war presidency?

    5 A. Members of the war presidency were

    6 individuals from other parties, representatives of

    7 other parties, of Muslims in Vitez, the commander of

    8 the civilian defence, the commander of the army in

    9 Vitez. I can give you the names, if you want.

    10 Q. Please.

    11 A. So I was the president, and members were Asim

    12 Sivro, the representative of the liberal party, that's

    13 what is called now; Suad Salkic, an engineer from

    14 Vitez, represented the reformist party; Enes Surkovic

    15 represented the SDP; Fuad Zeco, the ternary doctor from

    16 Vitez that was the commander of the civilian defence in

    17 Vitez; and Esad Dananovic he was the commander of the

    18 local Vitez brigade; and Munib Kajnovic was the

    19 president of the SDA. Excuse me, Fuad Kakjno, the

    20 president of the Vitez government. I'm sorry.

    21 Q. I'm going to apologise to you because the

    22 name of the commander of the Civil Defence, I didn't

    23 catch that. Could you repeat that for me, please?

    24 A. Fuad Zeco, the ternary doctor from Vitez.

    25 Q. Could you explain what the Civil Defence

  19. 1 was? What were its functions; what did it do?

    2 A. Must I?

    3 Q. Yes, please.

    4 A. The Civil Defence in Vitez was to look after

    5 the civilian population, the materiel resources,

    6 prevent accidents, rescue people, children, women,

    7 cattle in case of the danger of war. That was under

    8 the orders of the war presidency, so they were to take

    9 care of the local civilian population, their

    10 accommodation and all the matters bearing on the life

    11 of the civilian population.

    12 Q. Would they also bury the dead?

    13 A. At that time while I was in Vitez, the

    14 local population, and that was the custom there, did

    15 it, and a civilian defence was included in this; that

    16 is, every family buried their own.

    17 Q. You mentioned the name Enes Surkovic. Could

    18 you tell us who he was, please?

    19 A. Enes Surkovic was a teacher in the secondary

    20 school in Vitez, a mechanical engineer. On the war

    21 presidency, he represented the league of communists,

    22 the party for democratic changes, and he was a

    23 councilman and he was a councilman in the assembly

    24 elected in November 1990.

    25 Q. Did he have a particular function --

  20. 1 A. Not "Shurkavic," he is Surkovic.

    2 Q. Not me, the translator?

    3 A. No. That's what it says on the monitor,

    4 "Enis Shurkavic."

    5 Q. How long did you known Enes Surkovic?

    6 A. I knew Mr. -- I met Mr. Enes Surkovic when I

    7 came to work in Vitez as the teacher at the secondary

    8 school centre, and he was married to a Vitez woman, a

    9 family whom I knew who were in the indigenous

    10 population in Vitez. But he was not born in Vitez, I

    11 think he was born somewhere in Konjic, and I knew him

    12 since 1979, as a teacher. I knew him rather well

    13 because we were meeting there because of some

    14 problems.

    15 Q. You mentioned yesterday that during the April

    16 conflict that at one time you had to go down and find

    17 people to form a part of your negotiating team. Do you

    18 recall that conversation?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Was Enes Surkovic also one of the individuals

    21 that was also part of that negotiating team?

    22 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. No --

    23 yes, he was in the cellar, in the basement, that is, he

    24 was with that group of people who when Mr. Cerkez

    25 described that group he said there was about 300 of

  21. 1 them. I think that Enes Surkovic was one of them but I

    2 do not think that he was on the negotiating team.

    3 Q. Sir, I'm going to refer you to a witness

    4 statement that you gave, I believe, to the Office of

    5 the Prosecutor. It is the -- if the court would

    6 indulge me for a moment until I find it. I'd like to

    7 show the witness this statement.

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: When was it recorded?

    9 MR. MISETIC: It's not dated on the first

    10 page. It says Sunday, 16th July on the signature

    11 page.

    12 JUDGE MUMBA: 19 --

    13 MR. MISETIC: 1995, I'm sorry.

    14 Q. Sir, I'd ask you first to turn to page 10 of

    15 the statement. Do you have it, sir?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Do you see the witness acknowledgement on that

    18 page?

    19 A. Yes, my signature.

    20 Q. Would you turn to page 8 now, please? On

    21 that long paragraph on that page, towards the bottom,

    22 the fourth sentence from the bottom. I'll read it and

    23 ask you to tell me whether you made that statement:

    24 "An example of the Croatian attitude is that instead

    25 of releasing people from the cellar they were sent to

  22. 1 another prison in Busovaca, 15 of them. Some of these

    2 people were the prominent people and intellectuals. I

    3 chose to be part of the negotiating team such as Kaknjo

    4 Fuad, Sivro Bahtija, Surkovic Enes; Salkic Suad, Basic

    5 Alija, Dzidic Kadir." Was that your statement on the

    6 16th of July, 1995?

    7 A. See, I did not state that. I do not know

    8 English. I did state that eminent people were taken

    9 away and I said among them, there were also some who

    10 were on the negotiating team with me. These are Fuad

    11 Kaknjo, Bahtija Sivro, Kadir Dzidic. They were part of

    12 the negotiating team but what I said then was that

    13 eminent personalities were taken away, and amongst them

    14 were also some who participated in the negotiations

    15 with me.

    16 Q. Sir, let me just clarify something for you.

    17 You said you don't speak English. The witness

    18 acknowledgement says that, "This Statement has been read

    19 over to me in the Bosnian language and is true to the

    20 best of my knowledge and recollection."

    21 Was the statement read back to you in

    22 Bosnian?

    23 A. It is possible that it was read to me, but my

    24 statement was, as I have just said, that eminent

    25 personalities, prominent personalities from Vitez were

  23. 1 taken away, and those who were negotiating together

    2 with me, and here I think things are simply mixed up.

    3 Q. Was it read back to you in Bosnian or wasn't

    4 it, sir?

    5 A. Possibly. It could have been read to me, but

    6 I'm telling you what my statement was.

    7 Q. So you are, in fact, acknowledging that it

    8 was read back to you in Bosnian?

    9 A. It was interpreted to me in Bosnian, just as

    10 I have said.

    11 Q. But it was read back to you in Bosnian;

    12 correct?

    13 MR. BLAXILL: I think he's already answered

    14 that question, Your Honours.

    15 MR. MISETIC: He is equivocating. If it was

    16 read back to him in Bosnian, that's my question.

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness can answer.

    18 MR. MISETIC:

    19 Q. "Yes" or "No," sir. Sorry to interrupt you.

    20 A. It was interpreted for me into Bosnian but

    21 within that context that I have just explained.

    22 Q. ... but we can move on if you answer "Yes" or

    23 "No." Was the statement read back to you in Bosnian?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. I will ask you again if you will answer "Yes"

  24. 1 or "No." That was: The statement that I read back to

    2 you from page 8, that was a statement that you made to

    3 the interviewer; correct?

    4 A. Yes, except that --

    5 Q. Thank you.

    6 A. -- I'm repeating what I said then.

    7 Q. That statement makes reference, sir, to the

    8 fact that Enes Surkovic, among the other people that

    9 you name there, were taken to a prison in Busovaca.

    10 Was that statement true when you made it?

    11 A. Yes, Enes Surkovic spent a while in

    12 Busovaca. At the time, I was working in Vitez from

    13 the, I think, 18th, 19th of April until the 19th of

    14 May, and I had no direct contact with anyone. But

    15 Mr. Petkovic, that is, the commander of HVO, and Sefer

    16 Halilovic, who was the commander of the BiH army,

    17 visited Vitez, and I was told that it had been agreed

    18 to calm down the situation and that all the prisoners

    19 would be released. A child brought me a piece of paper

    20 to the surgery and told me that these were accommodated

    21 at the chess club, that they were singled out and put

    22 up in the chess club in Vitez, and later I learned that

    23 they had been taken to Busovaca. I do not know when

    24 they were released from Busovaca exactly, but the fact

    25 is that Mr. Surkovic spent some time in Busovaca. I

  25. 1 had contact with him later because a member of the war

    2 presidency (sic) and he showed me a certificate issued

    3 to him by the International Red Cross that he was a

    4 released internee -- a released detainee from the

    5 prison in Busovaca.

    6 Q. You talked to him in Zenica, I take it?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Could you explain what his role was in the

    9 war presidency after you and he arrived in Zenica?

    10 A. His specific assignment within the war

    11 presidency included, among other things, because of a

    12 great number of people who had been expelled from

    13 Vitez, there were about four and a half thousand

    14 refugees in Zenica, in Travnik maybe 500, so his role

    15 was to coordinate with the commander of the Civil

    16 Defence and to find accommodation for these people. So

    17 he made contact with the local authorities in Zenica so

    18 that some kind of accommodation would be found for

    19 these people. He was supposed to take care of these

    20 refugees. This was the specific assignment that was

    21 given to him by the war presidency, one of the

    22 assignments that he had at the time.

    23 Q. I'm going to ask you about his other

    24 assignments, but first I would like to ask you: Was

    25 his responsibility, because he was a member of the war

  26. 1 presidency, for the refugees in Zenica and in Travnik?

    2 A. He represented the war presidency as the

    3 person in charge of all Muslims who had been expelled

    4 from Vitez. He had his associates with whom he worked

    5 at the time. Therefore, he was also in charge for

    6 people in Travnik through his associates.

    7 Q. Do you know who he worked with in Travnik,

    8 who his associates were in Travnik?

    9 A. I believe that, as far as I can remember, it

    10 was Sead Cajnic, Professor Sulejman Kolasimac --

    11 MR. MISETIC: Madam President, I would ask

    12 that we go into closed session for a moment before the

    13 witness gives an answer.

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, let's go into a closed

    15 session.

    16 (Closed session)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    13 Pages 185 to 212 redacted in closed session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (Open session)

    16 MR. MISETIC:

    17 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday that the people

    18 in the health centre told you about the events in

    19 Ahmici; correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. You never saw those events yourself, did you?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. You also testified that the people in the

    24 health centre, at least one of them, kissed you when

    25 she saw you because she thought you were dead. Why did

  2. 1 they think you were dead?

    2 A. Well, this is something you should ask her,

    3 really. All I know is that they read the news that I

    4 had been killed, and apparently I was the only one

    5 alive from that list that was read out on the Sarajevo

    6 TV, and I don't know what exactly that nurse thought,

    7 what she thought when she kissed me and then she said,

    8 "Our doctor is alive." They had probably heard that I

    9 was supposed to have been killed. I don't know what

    10 personally she thought.

    11 Q. But yesterday didn't you say that Sarajevo

    12 television had announced that you were dead?

    13 A. Yes, this is what I just told you.

    14 Q. Did the nurse that you saw really believe

    15 that you were dead?

    16 MR. BLAXILL: Objection, Your Honours.

    17 That's a very speculative question as to what is going

    18 on in the person's mind.

    19 JUDGE MUMBA: And the witness has already

    20 explained he didn't know what she thought.

    21 MR. MISETIC:

    22 Q. The point is, sir, the stories people tell

    23 sometimes, they turn out not to be true; isn't that

    24 correct?

    25 MR. BLAXILL: I object to that. Again, it is

  3. 1 not directed to the evidential point or appropriate.

    2 JUDGE MUMBA: The objection is sustained.

    3 MR. MISETIC:

    4 Q. Sir, let me ask you about -- I believe you

    5 testified it was the 19th of April when someone from

    6 the HVO military police picked you up; is that right?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Do you remember the person's name?

    9 A. Dragan Calic. He was a military policeman,

    10 he wore white cross-belts, and he used to be a member

    11 of the Territorial Defence, and I knew him somewhat

    12 better.

    13 Q. Did you feel, at the time that he picked you

    14 up, that you were being forced to go to the health

    15 centre, or was his presence there some sort of a

    16 protection for you?

    17 A. Yesterday I indicated that when my

    18 mother-in-law asked him why they wanted to see me, he

    19 told her that he wanted to see the doctor, that he

    20 didn't want to talk to her. But he told me right away,

    21 "Doctor, have no fears. I have come to fetch you.

    22 You have to do some work for us." And I got ready and

    23 I went with him. And I knew the man.

    24 Q. When you would travel to and from work at the

    25 health centre, did you receive any kind of military

  4. 1 escort?

    2 A. From my apartment to the place where I

    3 worked, as of the 18th? Yes, there is -- the distance

    4 is maybe 500 metres, and each time I would be

    5 accompanied by Dragan Petrovic, who was wearing a

    6 military uniform, he would escort me all the way to the

    7 apartment, that is, to the entrance to my building, and

    8 I would be picked up to go to work by car. The

    9 residents, civilians from that building, would always

    10 be at the entrance to the building with weapons, so I

    11 could not leave the building just like that because of

    12 the guards at the entrance to the building, and I was

    13 advised not to do that. Sometimes I would be picked up

    14 early in the morning, but most of the time I spent at

    15 my workplace.

    16 Q. So with respect to the guards in front of

    17 your house, did you view them as people that were

    18 protecting you from the violence that was occurring

    19 outside, or were they people that were holding you

    20 captive somehow?

    21 A. My children and all other Muslims were

    22 forbidden to leave the building except when they were

    23 being evicted, but then they wouldn't come back after

    24 that. These people couldn't do anything once the

    25 soldiers in uniform were there. They wanted to get

  5. 1 hold of the apartment, and they would simply throw

    2 people out and move into these apartments.

    3 When I left my apartment, after I had left

    4 it, some people broke into it during the night, and

    5 apparently they were prevented by the civilian police

    6 of the Vitez HVO from mistreating my family. My wife

    7 told me that a civilian policeman came with his patrol

    8 and prevented the worst.

    9 Q. Okay. I guess if you could answer the

    10 question as I phrased it: Were they people that were

    11 protecting you from the violence outside or were they

    12 holding you captive?

    13 A. I don't know that, really. They were

    14 civilians, elderly people who were not of military

    15 age. Yes?

    16 Q. Have you completed --

    17 A. Yes, most of them were our neighbours,

    18 elderly people, civilians, Croats. We used to live

    19 there.

    20 Q. I have the same question with respect to the

    21 people that would take you from your apartment building

    22 to the health centre.

    23 MR. BLAXILL: That would appear, Your Honour,

    24 to be a compound type of question. He is asking, Which

    25 of two options I am giving you were they performing? I

  6. 1 think it should be put slightly differently as to what

    2 was the purpose of their escort.

    3 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, the witness should be

    4 able to explain that according to what he understood

    5 the escorts to be for.

    6 MR. MISETIC:

    7 Q. Do you understand the question, Mr. Witness?

    8 A. Yes, yes, I do. Later, I asked them, and one

    9 of them told me, that they were in charge of protecting

    10 the personnel, especially myself. They were supposed

    11 to accompany me everywhere, they were supposed to check

    12 on my conduct, see the people I was talking to, calling

    13 on the telephone. They were present there all the

    14 time.

    15 One of them was their chief, and his name was

    16 Dragan Petrovic, also known as Kinez. He used to drive

    17 me from my workplace to my apartment, and later, when I

    18 went to Busovaca, a driver from Busovaca would come to

    19 fetch me, and he would drive me to work and back home

    20 to my apartment in Vitez.

    21 Q. I understand now that you've described what

    22 you were doing, but I'm asking you for your own

    23 personal feeling. These things that they were doing,

    24 accompanying you, et cetera, did that make you feel

    25 more secure or were you under some sort of captivity,

  7. 1 that you were taken and forced to work at the health

    2 centre?

    3 A. These people who drove me were very fair to

    4 me, quite correct.

    5 Q. Thank you.

    6 MR. MISETIC: At this point, Your Honours, I

    7 would like to use Prosecution Exhibit 1, if available?

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It should be available.

    9 Mr. Misetic, do you want him to use the board

    10 or the ELMO?

    11 MR. MISETIC: The ELMO would be fine with

    12 me. I don't know whether it is convenient, though, for

    13 the registrar. Yes, that would be great. That's what

    14 I was anticipating.

    15 Q. Sir, you see -- are we ready? You see Vitez

    16 on the map there; correct?

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness use the

    18 pointer, please?

    19 MR. MISETIC:

    20 Q. Would you tell the court, please, when the

    21 conflict with the Serbs first started?

    22 A. In Vitez?

    23 Q. No, generally, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    24 Maybe --

    25 A. Well, as far as I know, it started with the

  8. 1 attack on the village of Ravne, then Bijeljina.

    2 Q. I'm sorry, just the time, month and year.

    3 A. I can't remember.

    4 Q. Was it --

    5 A. Well, I believe that the war in Bosnia

    6 started in the first half of 1992. I don't know

    7 exactly in which month.

    8 Q. At some point, sir, was there armed conflict

    9 with the Serbs on this territory that we're looking at

    10 on the map, or perhaps in the Travnik-Jajce area?

    11 A. In this area here.

    12 Q. Those are Serb positions?

    13 A. Well, do you mean in Vitez itself, in the

    14 municipality of Vitez? Are you referring to the area

    15 of Vitez alone? Counsel, are you referring to the

    16 municipality of Vitez?

    17 Q. I'm referring to Vitez and Travnik. I know

    18 Travnik, I don't believe, is on that map, but if you

    19 could show the court where Travnik is?

    20 A. Travnik would be here, in this direction.

    21 Q. Was there a front-line in that direction that

    22 you've just indicated with the Serbs?

    23 A. Yes, and it was located on Vlasic mountain,

    24 and it was in the immediate vicinity of Travnik, maybe

    25 some 12 kilometres, in the village of Turbe, but you

  9. 1 can't see Turbe on this map here.

    2 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you a question here:

    3 The map does show what appears to be a road from -- I

    4 don't know whether Novi Travnik is on the map --

    5 through Vitez and down to Busovaca. Was that road used

    6 as a communication on the front-line against the Serbs?

    7 A. The road to Novi Travnik?

    8 Q. I'm sorry.

    9 A. You can't see Novi Travnik here. It's in

    10 this direction, but it's not on the map.

    11 Q. Right. But the road from Busovaca to Vitez,

    12 do you see that main road?

    13 A. Busovaca?

    14 Q. Yes.

    15 A. This is Busovaca.

    16 Q. Now, from Vitez to the north-west, the road

    17 appears to extend?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And then farther -- no, north-west.

    20 A. (Indicated).

    21 Q. Yes. Was that road used as a communication

    22 and a resupply on the front-line up north-west where the

    23 Serb line was?

    24 A. Yes, it was.

    25 Q. Can you tell us, in this region, how long the

  10. 1 conflict -- I should say, when the conflict with the

    2 Serbs began in that north-west area and when it ended?

    3 A. I don't know exactly, but I think that the

    4 first conflict with the BiH army -- with the former JNA

    5 took place in 1992. We, at the crisis staff, adopted a

    6 decision, we thought that it was not desirable at the

    7 time for convoys from Croatia and Slovenia with

    8 military equipment use this particular road.

    9 Q. Whose convoy?

    10 A. The former Yugoslav People's Army. This was

    11 in the first half of 1992. These convoys would be

    12 stopped. They were prevented from passing through.

    13 Q. When did this conflict on this territory with

    14 the JNA or the Serbs end?

    15 A. The first conflict took place on the 4th of

    16 May when Territorial Defence units, together with HVO

    17 units, attacked the base in Travnik. This took place

    18 at the beginning of May.

    19 Q. But, I mean, the end of the conflict. Was

    20 that at the signing of the Dayton accords?

    21 A. The conflict of the BH army with the army of

    22 what is now known as the Armija Republika Srpska ended

    23 with the Dayton agreement, and the conflict of the BH

    24 army and the HVO ended with the signing of the

    25 Washington agreement.

  11. 1 Q. On this map now, could you show the court

    2 where Serb lines were? I'm sorry. In the Vitez

    3 municipality, were there Serb lines anywhere?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Now, outside the Vitez municipality but still

    6 on this map, were there any Serb lines?

    7 A. Yes. I mentioned Turbe and Vlasic.

    8 Q. Anywhere around Zenica?

    9 A. No. No, I'm not very familiar with that

    10 particular area, but I believe that the front-lines were

    11 further on.

    12 MR. MISETIC: I have one more line of

    13 questioning. I don't know ...

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: You can continue. We are

    15 breaking off at 12.30.

    16 MR. MISETIC:

    17 Q. Sir, what kind of car did you have in 1992

    18 and 1993?

    19 A. I had a Opel, Opel Kadett.

    20 Q. Was that the car that was stolen by the HVO

    21 military police that you testified to yesterday?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Which car was taken from you?

    24 A. One day I gave my car to a colleague of mine,

    25 I lent it to him, and he had a traffic accident with my

  12. 1 car, and since I needed a car, I took my brother's car,

    2 a Golf, because I had to have a car because of my

    3 work. So what was taken from my garage was the car

    4 belonging to my brother but which I drove at the time

    5 and which my brother lent me because of my work.

    6 Q. I thought it was your official car, that it

    7 was a car that was given to you as a part of your

    8 function as the head of the health centre.

    9 A. Yes, I was at the time head of the medical

    10 centre in October and in November 1992, and during that

    11 period, I had an official vehicle, a Yugo, and one day,

    12 the military police of the HVO requisitioned that car

    13 from me in front of the town hall. After that, another

    14 director of the medical centre was appointed, it was a

    15 Croat by the name of Zvonko Kajic, and maybe ten or

    16 fifteen days later, I was replaced by another director.

    17 Q. So you had a Yugo taken from you?

    18 A. My car was stolen, that is the car that

    19 belonged to my brother but which I was using at the

    20 time. But when I was in Vitez, when I was head of the

    21 medical centre, the HVO military police requisitioned

    22 my official car, the Yugo.

    23 Q. I'm going to show you -- again, I'd like to

    24 use the ELMO for this.

    25 I'm going to show you a copy of your

  13. 1 testimony in the Blaskic case. Do you recall

    2 testifying in that case, Doctor?

    3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Misetic, do you think we

    4 can finish cross-examination?

    5 MR. MISETIC: I have a few more questions for

    6 him, about 10 to 20 questions.

    7 Q. I'm referring in the record of the case of

    8 the Prosecutor versus Tihomir Blaskic, testimony of

    9 Dr. Muhamed Mujezinovic on the 20th of August, 1997, at

    10 pages 1658 and 1659. Sorry, 1659. I apologise. 1659

    11 and 1660.

    12 I cite you to line 15, Doctor: "Just to give

    13 you an example, temporarily I was director of the Dom

    14 Zdravlja in Vitez because my predecessor had left this,

    15 Dr. Dzevald Balta. He did this by way of demonstration

    16 because he said he had no conditions to work properly.

    17 In the Dom Zdravlja, it is the worker's council who

    18 appoint the director. I was asked to take over this

    19 post before a new director was elected. I used an

    20 official car."

    21 Move it up, please. Is that the end of the

    22 page? "One day" -- all the way up, please.

    23 "One day, the military police of the HVO

    24 simply came" -- don't zoom in, please. "One day, the

    25 military police of the HVO simply came in and said,

  14. 1 'Hello doctor', and I said hello. 'We have been

    2 ordered to take away the keys of your car.'"

    3 Next page, please.

    4 "That is an example. Dr. Muhamed

    5 Mujezinovic, the acting director of the Dom Zdravlja in

    6 Vitez, had his car keys to his official car taken over

    7 from the HVO military police ..."

    8 And then it goes on.

    9 A. Well, I stated that Dr. Dzevald Balta, was an

    10 official director of the health centre in Vitez, that

    11 is Dom Zdravlja, and I also stated that he had given up

    12 his position, he took some time off, vacation. He said

    13 that he could no longer work there because of the

    14 conditions, working conditions there. And the workers

    15 council asked me to take over this function because

    16 Dr. Dzevald Balta left one person behind to replace

    17 him, a person by the name of Dragan. At that time, I

    18 was an acting director of the health centre; and in

    19 front of the municipal hall where I had been to see

    20 Marijan Skopljak, the Minister of Defence, because I

    21 needed his help with something because the official

    22 medical officer of the HVO told me that there was a

    23 training of the HVO soldiers in camps, and apparently

    24 some skin diseases had spread and lice. So I was

    25 looking for Dr. Bruno Buzuk, who was in charge of that,

  15. 1 but I didn't find him, I found Marijan Skopljak, whom I

    2 knew very well. So I told him the reason why I was

    3 there, and since I was in charge of medical protection

    4 at the crisis staff, I knew that they had a reserve of

    5 necessary medication.

    6 My friend, Franjo Tibold, is an

    7 epidemiologist, and when I got out of the building,

    8 military police approached me and they told me, "We

    9 were to take possession of your keys. It's an official

    10 order." So I went back -- I went to my office and I

    11 called Marijan Skopljak, who was acting Minister of

    12 Defence of the HVO for the municipality of Vitez, and I

    13 asked him the reason why my vehicle had been

    14 requisitioned, and he promised that he would take care

    15 of that, but nothing happened. Some ten or fifteen

    16 days later, Zvonko Kajic was appointed director of the

    17 medical centre in Vitez. This is what I stated. This

    18 was my testimony. I apologise for being perhaps too

    19 broad, but this is what happened.

    20 MR. MISETIC: Shall we take a break, Your

    21 Honour?

    22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take a lunch

    23 break, and this afternoon, for today only, we shall

    24 resume at 14.15, quarter past two this afternoon.

    25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

  16. 1 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

    2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will continue with the

    3 cross-examination, Mr. Misetic, in open session.

    4 (Open session)

    5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    6 Q. Doctor, first just as a preliminary matter I

    7 would like to ask you, have you discussed your

    8 testimony during the lunch break with anyone?

    9 A. No, the time was very short. I hardly had

    10 any lunch.

    11 Q. Sir, if I could take you back for a moment

    12 and add to some testimony or some questioning that we

    13 did a little bit earlier. I would ask you to use the

    14 pseudonym "Witness A" in any response you give. You

    15 referred the person, Witness A, to your colleague;

    16 correct?

    17 A. Yes, I asked her to take her and try to treat

    18 her.

    19 Q. Did you subsequent to that get any type of

    20 report from your colleague after an examination was

    21 performed?

    22 A. No, I had other responsibilities. And with

    23 my colleague, I talked and she told me that she had

    24 many women undergoing treatment at the time. She

    25 didn't tell me how many. She simply told me that she

  17. 1 was working with women like Witness A.

    2 Q. But you received no specific information

    3 about Witness A?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Okay. Sir, now I'd like to follow up where

    6 we left off at the lunch break. Again, a couple of

    7 questions about the car. Just so I'm clear. . Your

    8 official car was taken from you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And your personal car was involved in a car

    11 accident?

    12 A. Yes, that was earlier when my own car

    13 suffered and I had lent it to my friend, Dragan

    14 Sefradin, and he was in an accident so that my car was

    15 broken, and I had it repaired. It was a car mechanic

    16 Franjic in -- I can't remember exactly what his name

    17 was. So my own car was being repaired, my personal

    18 car.

    19 Q. And then the car that you had borrowed from

    20 your brother was also taken from you?

    21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Misetic, what is the point

    22 about the car?

    23 MR. MISETIC: He identifies Mr. Furundzija

    24 yesterday in his direct testimony with respect to

    25 trying to take his car, and I'm getting to that.

  18. 1 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, I beg to correct

    2 my friend there. I think the conversation he alluded

    3 to with Mr. Furundzija was that Furundzija asked for

    4 the car keys, said he knew where the garage was, et

    5 cetera, but I don't think he was demanding his "car"

    6 or mentioned any car by name or description.

    7 MR. MISETIC: I said he was trying to take

    8 his car. I presume when he allegedly tried to take the

    9 keys that it was for the purpose of taking the car.

    10 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need go into

    11 that now, but I think if we can move on a bit towards

    12 the central point, it would help.

    13 MR. MISETIC:

    14 Q. Sir, you identified yesterday as the person

    15 who tried to take the keys from your car as

    16 Mr. Furundzija; isn't that right?

    17 A. (Inaudible).

    18 Q. How long did that encounter take?

    19 A. A couple of minutes, perhaps.

    20 Q. Was that conversation just the one sentence

    21 that you said or two sentences, excuse me?

    22 A. That was all, what I already said, nothing

    23 more.

    24 Q. So two sentences; perhaps, it was a 30-second

    25 encounter?

  19. 1 A. Yes. Well, whatever it took, I mean, he did

    2 not stay there.

    3 Q. You testified yesterday that you had never

    4 before met Mr. Furundzija; isn't that right?

    5 A. I said I did not know him well. I don't say

    6 that I did not see him around.

    7 Q. So where would you see him?

    8 A. In my statement, I said that that gentleman

    9 was one of the commanders of the military police of the

    10 Territorial Defence, and I used to see him, seeing that

    11 I was a physician. I saw him in the company of a young

    12 man who was an active military officer, Zikret Ahmic.

    13 I saw them patrolling together on a couple of times,

    14 and I saw him in various places, but I never talked to

    15 him. I asked the commander, "How could he be the

    16 commander of the military police?" And he told me,

    17 "Well, he's a good bloke." Who was it? I think

    18 Hakija Cengic, and the other one I also knew, Zlatko,

    19 and he told me -- we also have a Zlatko who is with the

    20 military police. That is where I saw him. I can't

    21 remember seeing him before, although I know some of his

    22 relatives. Personally, I did not know him before.

    23 Q. After you went to Zenica, did you see any

    24 pictures of Anto Furundzija?

    25 A. No.

  20. 1 Q. So your identification of Mr. Furundzija is

    2 based on your memory from --

    3 A. I suppose I can state it before the court

    4 that I saw him on television. On television, I saw

    5 when the accused Croats were being sent away, and that

    6 was the news, so I saw it on the Croatian television,

    7 however, them being seen off, but no other pictures,

    8 no.

    9 Q. So you saw Mr. Furundzija in October of '97

    10 when the group of ten Bosnian Croats voluntarily

    11 surrendered to the Tribunal?

    12 A. On television, yes.

    13 Q. And on television, you were able to identify

    14 Mr. Furundzija; correct?

    15 A. It was a news agency news and I saw so many

    16 men. No, no, I was watching -- no, it wasn't then.

    17 I'm sorry.

    18 Q. Let me move on. Let me ask you --

    19 MR. MISETIC: I should ask the court first,

    20 for leave of the Trial Chamber, since identification is

    21 going to be in issue in this case, if we could have

    22 Mr. Furundzija with an escort stand here and we can do

    23 a height, weight, et cetera, and ask the witness

    24 whether he is in the same --

    25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, you can go ahead.

  21. 1 (The accused steps forward)

    2 MR. MISETIC:

    3 Q. Is Mr. Furundzija the same height as you

    4 recall him?

    5 A. I used to see Mr. Furundzija in a military

    6 uniform.

    7 Q. Height?

    8 A. I can't really confirm it, whether he has

    9 grown up or not.

    10 Q. You said he came and took you out of the

    11 health centre; correct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And you identified him yesterday in court;

    14 correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. The question again for the reporter was "And

    17 you identified him yesterday in court?" You are a

    18 medical doctor; correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You're used to taking people's height,

    21 weight?

    22 A. The nurses do that. I don't do it.

    23 Q. But you look at the information and you use

    24 that information in healing patients; isn't that

    25 correct?

  22. 1 A. I use it when I need it, only when I need it.

    2 Q. The question to you then, again, Doctor is:

    3 Is Mr. Furundzija approximately the same height as he

    4 was when you say you saw him in 1993?

    5 A. I cannot answer that. I came out for a

    6 couple of minutes. It was an encounter, and I told you

    7 that when I came out, he told me what he told me and

    8 that was that. I never paid any attention. And since

    9 I -- I mean, when I worked, I was constantly under the

    10 pressure of fear.

    11 In Vitez, I knew that I was, what, the

    12 president of the war presidency, and I had heard that

    13 very many of my associates had been killed. I expected

    14 that I would be killed. And I don't know if you can

    15 understand it, I'm a doctor, but I was under a constant

    16 pressure. I was very tense. And you are asking me

    17 something that, at that particular moment, I simply

    18 paid no attention to it.

    19 Q. Did you pay attention to his weight?

    20 A. I saw a soldier, Anto Furundzija, before me

    21 whom I knew as a military policeman of the Territorial

    22 Defence.

    23 Q. The question is, Doctor: Is he approximately

    24 the same weight as he was in 1993?

    25 A. I wouldn't know that. I cannot confirm it or

  23. 1 not. I just can't.

    2 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you, Doctor, about his

    3 hair. Is his hair the same length as it was at the

    4 time you saw him in 1993?

    5 A. I told you that he was wearing a combat

    6 uniform, so I could not see his hair.

    7 Q. Did he have his uniform on his head, Doctor?

    8 He had his uniform on his head?

    9 A. He had a cap.

    10 MR. BLAXILL: I do protest the tone of that

    11 particular question. By "uniform," would he ask

    12 specifically what kind of thing he's suggesting? I

    13 mean, just saying "his uniform on his head" seems

    14 somewhat of an inappropriate way to put it.

    15 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has answered he had

    16 a cap.

    17 A. He had a cap, a military cap.

    18 MR. MISETIC:

    19 Q. What kind of cap was it? Describe the cap.

    20 A. A camouflage -- the kind of camouflage head

    21 gear, military one, with this thing with the shield.

    22 Q. Did he have any other identification as to

    23 which army he belonged to?

    24 A. Yesterday I said that I had paid no attention

    25 to that. Only HVO soldiers came for treatment there,

  24. 1 by and large. And when somebody pulls you away from

    2 your work, and I was shocked by the question, and I

    3 simply paid no attention to markings, to insignia or

    4 whatever, I really paid no attention to that. I

    5 immediately went back.

    6 Q. At the time you met the man who took you out,

    7 did you get a good look at his face?

    8 A. Yes. I was looking him in the eye, just as

    9 I'm looking now.

    10 Q. But you can't identify height, weight, hair?

    11 JUDGE MUMBA: In fairness to the witness,

    12 about the hair, he had a cap, so you can't push that.

    13 MR. MISETIC: That's what he says he had.

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the witness says he had a

    15 cap.

    16 MR. MISETIC:

    17 Q. I'm asking him: Is that a correct statement?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. We just want to clarify something, sir. I

    20 asked you whether you had seen a photograph which you

    21 may have misconstrued as, "Have you seen a photograph

    22 in Zenica?" Have you ever seen a photograph outside of

    23 the television occurrence, or something like that with

    24 respect to what you had testified to earlier, have you

    25 ever seen any photograph at any time since April of

  25. 1 1993 of Mr. Furundzija?

    2 A. I never saw Furundzija's photograph, except

    3 on television, but it wasn't until then, it was some

    4 agency news, not when they were being seen off, and I

    5 don't watch television much. But I heard it on the

    6 news that he had been arrested, that Furundzija had

    7 been arrested, and I think they mentioned another name

    8 too, and they showed their pictures on television. I

    9 think he was much heavier. I think he has grown

    10 thinner. On television, he looked much heavier.

    11 Q. Sir, before you came to testify, were you

    12 aware that you were going to have to make a courtroom

    13 ID of Mr. Furundzija?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. I'm going to show you one more exhibit --

    16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the accused sit?

    17 MR. MISETIC: Yes, the accused can sit down.

    18 Q. First let me ask the question: Sir, you said

    19 you worked with Enes Surkovic?

    20 A. He worked with me.

    21 Q. Did you ever see his handwriting?

    22 A. Yeah -- I mean, things that I needed came in

    23 the typed form. I did not see his handwriting.

    24 MR. MISETIC: Our examination is concluded,

    25 Your Honour. I'm sorry, I have one more question.

  26. 1 Q. Sir, you weren't in Nadioci, Bosnia at the

    2 location called "the Bungalow" on the 15th of May,

    3 1993, were you?

    4 A. The 15th of May, what year? I only passed

    5 through in a military ambulance when I was being

    6 transported from Vitez to Busovaca and back. When I

    7 would finish with my work there, they took me back to

    8 Vitez, but I paid no attention to bungalows. Once,

    9 they took me in the military ambulance through the

    10 village of Ahmici so I could see what it looked like,

    11 but personally I did not go there.

    12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. We have no further

    13 questions, Your Honours.

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution, any

    15 re-examination?

    16 MR. BLAXILL: I have no re-examination, Your

    17 Honours, but I would at this stage --

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    19 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I have no

    20 re-examination at this stage. What I would like to

    21 do --

    22 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry to interrupt. I've

    23 failed to move into evidence the few exhibits that I

    24 did want to move in.

    25 MR. BLAXILL: I was going to ask for the same

  27. 1 thing for the Prosecution, Madam President, so would it

    2 be possible for us, perhaps, jointly to move that we

    3 move the exhibits for the Prosecution and the Defence

    4 into evidence?

    5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Misetic, all four? There

    6 are five or four?

    7 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I believe there

    8 are six and, no, we only want to move in Exhibit 1.

    9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

    10 MR. MISETIC: And Exhibit 3, which is the

    11 witness's statement, but only with respect to page 8 of

    12 the statement, the last four sentences of the first

    13 long paragraph on that page, and page 10, of course,

    14 which is his acknowledgement that he signed it.

    15 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I would suggest

    16 that it be more proper that the document as a whole

    17 should be entered into evidence, because a document is

    18 a whole, and to say a selective quotation could be

    19 misleading at the end of the day when reviewing the

    20 evidence.

    21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Misetic, the whole

    22 statement?

    23 MR. MISETIC: We've only asked him with

    24 respect to that small portion of the statement. The

    25 rest of it he has been examined on by the Prosecution

  28. 1 and the Defence. There's no need to move in the entire

    2 statement. We asked him with respect to that specific

    3 portion and whether his witness acknowledgement on the

    4 last page was accurate.

    5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but it can't be taken out

    6 of context. It has to be the whole document.

    7 MR. MISETIC: If the court wants to move that

    8 whole paragraph in then --

    9 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, it's the Defence

    10 who have introduced the document.

    11 MR. MISETIC: If the court will allow us then

    12 to move the --

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: Statement?

    14 MR. MISETIC: No, that paragraph then for

    15 contextual purposes only.

    16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Blaxill, you would like the

    17 whole statement?

    18 MR. BLAXILL: I just thought it was more

    19 appropriate that if one is referring to any contents of

    20 a document, then potentially that entire document

    21 becomes admissible as one single exhibit. It's a

    22 matter for you to rule, Ma'am.

    23 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall admit the --

    24 MR. MISETIC: Well, then, Your Honour, we

    25 withdraw the statement, so we will only move in

  29. 1 Exhibit 1 into evidence.

    2 JUDGE MUMBA: So D-3, D-4 and D-2 should be

    3 returned.

    4 MR. MISETIC: D-2, we would move it in if the

    5 Prosecution has no objection.

    6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, you only need D-1.

    7 MR. MISETIC: D-1, right, but there was a

    8 question as to authenticity before. If the Prosecution

    9 still has that question, fine; otherwise, we'd move it

    10 in.

    11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Blaxill, do you mind?

    12 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, my query as regards

    13 Exhibit D-2, Your Honours --

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: No, D-1, you have no

    15 objection?

    16 MR. BLAXILL: D-1, not at all.

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. D-2?

    18 MR. BLAXILL: Well, D-2 was a document where

    19 there could not, from the evidence that I heard from

    20 the witness, there could be no authentication. It

    21 wasn't a list produced by him. He simply confirmed his

    22 name as a candidate or something, so not even that he

    23 was on the list.

    24 MR. MISETIC: I was only asking counsel if

    25 they had an objection. If they do --

  30. 1 MR. BLAXILL: We do.

    2 MR. MISETIC: -- we will leave it out. D-1.

    3 JUDGE MUMBA: So D-1, okay.

    4 MR. BLAXILL: Just in regards to the

    5 Prosecution exhibits, just 1 and 2, Ma'am, the two

    6 maps, perhaps if you would like --

    7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the two maps were already

    8 entered.

    9 MR. MISETIC: We have no objection to that,

    10 Your Honour.

    11 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you.

    12 JUDGE MUMBA: What number, Registrar? The

    13 documents for identification only will be returned to

    14 the registrar.

    15 Thank you very much, Doctor, for your

    16 evidence.

    17 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, may I interpose

    18 for a moment? I would like you to consider the

    19 formality of releasing the witness. I don't know if my

    20 friends for the Defence have any problem or objection

    21 to him being released so that he can return home. This

    22 impacts on what the Victim and Witness Unit would be

    23 able to do.

    24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Misetic, any objection?

    25 MR. MISETIC: No, we will not be recalling

  31. 1 the witness. He may leave.

    2 MR. BLAXILL: I so apply then, Madam. Thank

    3 you.

    4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for giving

    5 evidence at the Tribunal. You are released.

    6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank

    7 you, ladies and gentlemen of the Prosecution and

    8 gentlemen of the Defence.

    9 (The witness withdrew)

    10 JUDGE MUMBA: The next witness?

    11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I ask that

    12 prior to the next witness coming in that the protective

    13 measures that the court has ordered be in place?

    14 JUDGE MUMBA: This is witness ...

    15 MS. SELLERS: This is Witness B, Your

    16 Honour.

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution -- is that the

    18 pseudonym and voice distortion?

    19 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, those

    20 are the protections that have been --

    21 JUDGE MUMBA: The face distortion.

    22 MS. SELLERS: Face distortion and the

    23 pseudonym.

    24 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Sellers, do we have the

    25 English translation of the statement of Witness B?

  32. 1 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I believe

    2 that that has been given to the court. If you would

    3 like another copy, we can certainly provide it

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness make the solemn

    6 declaration whilst standing, please?

    7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I shall

    8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    9 truth

    10 WITNESS B.

    11 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

    12 MS. SELLERS: Might I begin, Your Honour?

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

    14 MS. SELLERS:

    15 Q. Good afternoon, Witness B. Can you hear me?

    16 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can.

    17 Q. Are you ready to begin?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. I would like to ask you a few background

    20 questions first. Witness B, where were you born?

    21 A. I was born in Ahmici.

    22 Q. Is Ahmici located in the Lasva Valley?

    23 A. Yes, it is.

    24 Q. Have you lived in Ahmici all of your life?

    25 A. Yes, I have.

  33. 1 Q. Could you please tell me whether you went to

    2 school in Ahmici?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber a bit about

    5 your educational background?

    6 A. I completed elementary school and also

    7 secondary school. I was trained as a mechanic.

    8 Q. Are you a Muslim, Witness B?

    9 A. Yes, I am.

    10 Q. Now, could you please tell the Tribunal, did

    11 you live in Ahmici in 1993?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did you live with your family?

    14 A. Yes, I did.

    15 Q. Would you please describe the house that you

    16 lived in?

    17 A. It was our family house. It was a two-storey

    18 house with a yard and some attachments to it as well.

    19 Q. Did the house have a basement to it?

    20 A. Yes, it did.

    21 Q. Was the house near a main road?

    22 A. Yes, it was.

    23 Q. Could you please explain to the court in

    24 which directions did the road lead?

    25 A. It was the main road which connected Busovaca

  34. 1 and Vitez.

    2 Q. Turning your attention now to the morning of

    3 April 16th, 1993. Might I ask you, were you at home?

    4 A. Yes, I was.

    5 Q. Was your family with you that morning?

    6 A. My mother was with me.

    7 Q. Please take your time and describe for the

    8 Chamber what, if anything, happened to you and your

    9 mother that morning on April 16th.

    10 A. It was early in the morning and I woke up to

    11 the sounds of shooting and explosions. I got up, and

    12 at that moment, an incendiary bullet entered our room,

    13 our living room, which was on the first floor of the

    14 house. It fell on a couch, which caught fire. I took

    15 some water and put it out, but I panicked and I didn't

    16 know what to do at the time, so I went to the

    17 telephone, I wanted to call my relatives, I wanted to

    18 find out what was happening, but the lines were cut

    19 off. Then I went to my mother and I told her that that

    20 part of the house was not safe. The shooting was going

    21 on all the time, and the house could easily catch

    22 fire. So I told my mother that we should go downstairs

    23 to the lower part of the house, that is, to the

    24 basement, and that we would be safer there.

    25 So my mother and I went downstairs to the

  35. 1 basement, but in the front of the house, there were

    2 three soldiers in uniform --

    3 Q. Might I stop you just for a moment there?

    4 Now, you mentioned that there were three soldiers in

    5 uniform. Could you please tell us where they were

    6 coming from, if anywhere?

    7 A. They had come from the lower part of the

    8 village, from the lower part of the house, from the

    9 direction of the main road, and two of them came from

    10 the upper part. They were also wearing uniform. And

    11 they pushed us with their hands, my mother and myself,

    12 into the basement.

    13 Q. When you say that two came from the upper

    14 house and three came from below the house, do you

    15 mean --

    16 MR. MISETIC: Objection. She did not -- that

    17 is not the testimony. She said there were three total.

    18 MS. SELLERS: Well, excuse me, I am trying to

    19 verify that.

    20 MR. MISETIC: Then I object to it as leading

    21 the witness. The witness has testified as three and

    22 the question is posed as two came from one and three

    23 from the other. I think that is highly inappropriate.

    24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have clarification then

    25 from the witness?

  36. 1 MS. SELLERS: Yes, certainly.

    2 Q. Could you please tell us how many soldiers

    3 were present who came to your house in this incident?

    4 MR. MISETIC: Objection again. Asked and

    5 answered. She said three.

    6 MS. SELLERS: That was not the question that

    7 was asked, and I would like to have it clarified as the

    8 Judge has requested.

    9 MR. MISETIC: The question was: "Now, you

    10 mentioned that there were three soldiers in uniform.

    11 Could you please tell us where they were coming from,

    12 if anywhere?" Now you're asking again how many

    13 soldiers were there.

    14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, can we have this

    15 clarified by the witness?

    16 MR. MISETIC: It's been verified. She

    17 doesn't like the answer to the question, and now it's

    18 being reposed, and it's already been told to the

    19 witness what she's looking for.

    20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The Trial Chamber

    21 would like clarification from the witness.

    22 MS. SELLERS:

    23 Q. Witness B, would you please tell us how many

    24 soldiers were at the house that day during that

    25 incident?

  37. 1 A. There were five of them in total, but you

    2 haven't listened to me to the end. There were two

    3 groups of soldiers. Three came from below the house

    4 and two came from above -- from the area above the

    5 house. That was the problem.

    6 Q. Thank you very much. And then could you

    7 please describe what occurred after that?

    8 A. They pushed us into the basement, they pushed

    9 my mother and myself, and they entered as well. Then

    10 they started cursing, "Our balijas mother," they were

    11 saying, "What are you doing? This is all doing of

    12 your Alija." They abused us verbally, and one of the

    13 soldiers told me that I should go and call our

    14 neighbours, and he wanted to know where the men were.

    15 At that moment, I turned around and started

    16 talking to one of the soldiers whom I knew, and I asked

    17 him, "Anto, could I put my shoes on and take my jacket"

    18 because I didn't know whether there was anyone in these

    19 houses. I had just got up. And I told him, "You know

    20 me very well. You know I've never been a

    21 nationalist." I had lots of friends. I had friends

    22 among Croats as well.

    23 Q. Excuse me. If I could ask right now, when

    24 you're referring to "Anton," could you please tell me

    25 how Anton was dressed, this person you're referring to?

  38. 1 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

    2 Q. And was he armed?

    3 A. I'm not quite sure.

    4 Q. Could you please now continue with the

    5 conversation that you were having with him?

    6 A. He kept quiet, he didn't say anything in

    7 response to that, and the other soldiers were searching

    8 the house, throwing things about the house.

    9 Q. Yes. Now, this person that you referred to

    10 as "Anton," is this someone that you knew at that time?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Where did you know the person from?

    13 A. I knew him from school. We used to go to

    14 school together for four years.

    15 Q. Had you seen him after that time period in

    16 which you attended school together?

    17 A. We used to see each other later, after

    18 school, in town and in cafes. I used to see him. He

    19 was a member of the Territorial Defence, and I would

    20 often see him in a car in the town of Vitez.

    21 Q. Now, Witness B, I would like you to look very

    22 carefully around the courtroom today and tell me if you

    23 see the person that you are referring to in your

    24 testimony as "Anton"?

    25 A. Yes.

  39. 1 Q. Would you please describe for me what the

    2 person is wearing?

    3 A. He's wearing a black blazer, white shirt, and

    4 a tie.

    5 Q. Could you please point to him for me?

    6 A. (Indicated).

    7 MS. SELLERS: Would the record reflect that

    8 Witness B has pointed to the accused, Anton Furundzija.

    9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the accused has been

    10 identified by the witness.

    11 MS. SELLERS:

    12 Q. Witness B, might I ask you: Does Anton

    13 Furundzija look the same today as he did that morning

    14 in your basement?

    15 A. He's a bit heavier today, I think, and he's

    16 dressed differently, of course.

    17 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you: What

    18 were the other soldiers doing in your basement while

    19 you were having a conversation with Anto Furundzija?

    20 A. Other soldiers were searching the house,

    21 throwing things around. They were looking for

    22 something, I don't know what they were looking for, but

    23 they were searching the house.

    24 Q. Did they find anything in this search of your

    25 house?

  40. 1 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to object, Your

    2 Honours, as to the relevance of this line of

    3 questioning. The events on 16 April, '93, have no

    4 relevance outside of the identification. I don't

    5 understand what some other soldiers' conduct has to do

    6 with whether Mr. Furundzija was present on the 15th of

    7 May.

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: But that question is -- there

    9 is nothing wrong with that question.

    10 MR. MISETIC: Sure, there is. It has no

    11 relevance to this case.

    12 JUDGE MUMBA: What do you mean? The witness

    13 has just started describing what happened to her and

    14 her family when the soldiers, in which group the

    15 accused was, arrived at the house.

    16 MR. MISETIC: Again, we would object as to --

    17 I don't know what that has to do with the issues in

    18 this case but ...

    19 JUDGE MUMBA: The objection is overruled.

    20 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    21 Q. Might I repeat the question: Did the

    22 soldiers find anything in your house that morning,

    23 Witness B?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. And then could you please tell me, when you

  41. 1 were having your conversation with Anto Furundzija,

    2 about how close were you standing to him?

    3 A. Well, I was maybe one metre away from him. I

    4 was really standing next to him. It was a small room,

    5 and we were standing close to each other.

    6 Q. Now, standing at that closeness to him, could

    7 you see whether there was a patch on his uniform?

    8 A. "Jokers" on his sleeve.

    9 Q. Then could you please describe for the Trial

    10 Chamber how you and your mother left the basement that

    11 morning?

    12 A. They pushed us out, they told us that we

    13 could not stay there. They said they had to leave --

    14 that we had to leave, and they mentioned "Our Alija"

    15 again. So we left the basement, we got out of the

    16 basement, but my mother wouldn't leave the house. She

    17 wanted to stay there. So she turned around; she wanted

    18 to go back. And at that moment, one of the soldiers

    19 shot at our feet, so the earth covered our feet.

    20 Q. Witness B, did the earth cover your feet due

    21 to the gunshots that were fired?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Could you also please tell the Trial Chamber

    24 what else was happening in Ahmici from your vantage

    25 point that morning?

  42. 1 MR. MISETIC: Again, Your Honour, I'm going

    2 to have to make an objection as to what relevance what

    3 else was going on in Ahmici has to this case.

    4 JUDGE MUMBA: Armed conflict, the issue of

    5 armed conflict, which you said you are not conceding.

    6 MR. MISETIC: All right. Thank you.

    7 MS. SELLERS:

    8 Q. Would you please tell us any other things you

    9 saw going on in Ahmici that morning?

    10 A. That morning in Ahmici, the houses were on

    11 fire, there was a lot of smoke. We could smell the

    12 smoke, smell of gunfire. We heard shooting.

    13 Q. Were there other families that were --

    14 A. Smell of gun powder.

    15 Q. Pardon me. Were there other families that

    16 were standing outside of their houses also that

    17 morning?

    18 A. Yes. At that moment, that is when we were

    19 told to leave the house, one of the soldiers motioned

    20 with his hand to Ismail Ahmic with his wife and to Mujo

    21 Ahmic, who was also there with his wife and his two

    22 children. So they came to my house. At that moment,

    23 we women were told to leave, to run away, and Mujo and

    24 Ismail Ahmic remained there on that spot.

    25 Q. Have you ever seen Mujo and Ismail Ahmic

  43. 1 since that day?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Did they remain with the soldiers?

    4 A. Yes, they did.

    5 Q. Where did the group of women go at that time?

    6 A. We reached the main road, and I managed to

    7 cast a glance from that point, and I saw from the main

    8 road, I saw one of the soldiers spilling something from

    9 a jerrycan on my house and one part of the house was

    10 already on fire.

    11 Q. Did you then leave Ahmici?

    12 A. Yes. We set off in the direction of Pirici,

    13 but shooting was going on all the time. We had no

    14 specific place we wanted to go; we didn't know where to

    15 go. We passed the house of the woman by the name of

    16 Mejra. That house was not on fire, had not been set on

    17 fire, and Mejra called us, she motioned to us, and she

    18 invited us into her house because of the shooting, and

    19 we had to take shelter somewhere.

    20 Q. So how long did you stay in Mejra's house?

    21 A. We stayed in Mejra's house until the evening

    22 of the 16th, until dusk. Her neighbour arrived at that

    23 point, a Croat woman, and she told us that we were not

    24 safe there. So she took us to the house of her

    25 daughter, where we spent the night, the night between

  44. 1 the 16th and the 17th, we stayed at that house.

    2 On the following morning, the morning of the

    3 17th, my mother simply couldn't believe that our house

    4 had been burned down and she went to the house. She

    5 wanted to get something, some documents, some of our

    6 belongings because we hadn't taken anything from our

    7 house.

    8 Q. Might I stop you --

    9 A. So she left.

    10 Q. Excuse me. Are you referring that your

    11 mother went back to the house in Ahmici?

    12 A. Yes. She went back to the house on the

    13 17th -- in the morning of the 17th of April. So when

    14 she came back from the house, she was very frightened,

    15 she seemed lost, and I asked her what had happened, and

    16 then she told me that the house had been completely

    17 burned down.

    18 She had seen dead bodies in the vicinity of

    19 the house.

    20 Q. Where did the group go that morning when your

    21 mother returned from Ahmici?

    22 A. When she returned, another Croat woman whom I

    23 didn't know arrived, and she told this other woman that

    24 we were supposed to move to another house where there

    25 was a shop and that we were all supposed to be

  45. 1 collected there and then that they would see what to do

    2 with us. But anyhow, we were supposed to gather there

    3 in the shop.

    4 So we went to that house. We passed Mejra's

    5 house on the way to the shop, and that house too was

    6 burned down.

    7 Q. Is that the house that you had stayed in the

    8 previous day as you were fleeing Ahmici?

    9 A. We stayed in that house, yes, and it was not

    10 damaged while we were there on the 16th.

    11 Q. Now, you stated that you had gone to a shop

    12 with the group. Could you please describe for the

    13 Trial Chamber what occurred when you were in the shop?

    14 A. This shop consisted of one room, and there

    15 were lots of women and children in that shop. Each

    16 woman had suffered personal tragedy, losing husbands,

    17 sons. There were a couple of men as well. But when we

    18 got in, when we entered that shop, a group of soldiers

    19 wearing black uniforms arrived, and they started

    20 searching for men.

    21 Q. Did they eventually take these men away?

    22 A. Yes, they did. They took away Hasim Ahmic.

    23 His wife protested. He begged them not to take him

    24 away. He was an elderly man, quite ill, and they

    25 simply told us to keep quiet or else we would all be

  46. 1 killed. Then they also took out Munib Helub (phoen),

    2 Amir Ramic and Zenur Ramic, two brothers.

    3 Q. Do you know whether their families have seen

    4 those men since that day?

    5 A. No. No, they haven't seen them.

    6 Q. Witness B, then on the morning of April 18th,

    7 did the remaining women move to a different location?

    8 A. Yes, we were moved to the building of

    9 Dubravica Elementary School.

    10 Q. Could you tell us how you arrived at the

    11 school?

    12 A. We arrived there on foot, and Nikica Plavcic

    13 was the one who escorted us. There was one red van

    14 that also accompanied that group. It was a group of

    15 women consisting of maybe a hundred, maybe even more

    16 women.

    17 Q. How long did it take you to arrive at the

    18 school that morning by foot?

    19 A. Well, maybe half an hour, one hour.

    20 Q. When you arrived there, could you tell me how

    21 many people were in the school?

    22 A. When we arrived in the school, we were met

    23 there by a group of soldiers who separated us. Some

    24 younger women and children were taken to one room, and

    25 the remaining women were taken to the gym. There were

  47. 1 several men in that gym, they had been there already.

    2 Q. And the people who were detained in that

    3 school, Witness B, were they Muslims?

    4 A. Yes. They were residents of Novaci, Rijeka,

    5 and other neighbouring villages in the municipality of

    6 Vitez.

    7 Q. The soldiers who were around the school,

    8 could you please tell me what nationality they were?

    9 A. Well, they were wearing HVO insignia.

    10 Croats.

    11 Q. I would like you now to tell the Trial

    12 Chamber a bit of the conditions that existed at the

    13 school?

    14 A. "Conditions"? You can hardly call them

    15 "conditions." It was a gym and there was nothing in

    16 there, so they brought some mattresses, and I think

    17 that maybe five or six women slept on one mattress. We

    18 didn't get any food for about two or three days.

    19 Almost every day, a group of soldiers would come and

    20 take men for digging, and we lived in a constant fear

    21 all the time. We could hear that the -- we could hear

    22 Croat soldiers shooting because each time we would hear

    23 gunfire. We were simply human shields at that time and

    24 in that location. There were days that we were not

    25 allowed to get up to leave the place at all. There was

  48. 1 only one toilet in the building used by everyone.

    2 Q. How many days did you stay at this school

    3 with your mother?

    4 A. Twelve days.

    5 Q. So did you eventually leave the school around

    6 May 1st?

    7 A. Yes, on the 1st of May, we left the school.

    8 Q. Did you return to Ahmici?

    9 A. No. There was no possibility for us to

    10 return to Ahmici. We were registered by these Croatian

    11 soldiers, and they told us that we had only two

    12 options: Zenica or Travnik. Nobody even bothered to

    13 ask us to stay there, whether we wanted to stay. So on

    14 the 1st of May, I left for Zenica with my mother.

    15 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber a bit

    16 about your life during the month of May after you left

    17 the school?

    18 A. Terrible. We had nothing, no clothes. A

    19 refugee belonging nowhere, having nothing. I simply

    20 was left without anything.

    21 Q. Witness B, for you, did the war start on the

    22 morning of April 16th?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have

    25 no further questions.

  49. 1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Cross-examination?

    2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    3 Cross-examined by Mr. Misetic:

    4 Q. Witness B, I know this is difficult for you,

    5 so we appreciate you coming to The Hague, and I'm going

    6 to try to keep my questions short so you can leave

    7 quicker. Okay?

    8 A. (Nods)

    9 Q. On the morning of the 16th, you stated that

    10 you and your mother were in the house. Was anyone else

    11 in the house with you?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Was your father in Vranjska at the time?

    14 A. Yes. He left a day before, for a day to help

    15 my aunt. I think they had to saw some timber or

    16 something. So that he wasn't there even a day before,

    17 they did not finish the job, and he did not return that

    18 evening. And for three months, he knew nothing about

    19 our lot, nor did we know about him.

    20 Q. I have your 1995 statement, and I want to

    21 show you a small passage there and ask you just a

    22 couple of questions about it.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document number 7.

    24 MR. MISETIC:

    25 Q. Is that the statement you gave to the

  50. 1 Tribunal, ma'am?

    2 A. This is in English. I don't know.

    3 MR. MISETIC: I would note to the court that

    4 we never got a signed copy of the statement. I don't

    5 know if the Prosecutor wants to stipulate that it's the

    6 statement or produce a signed copy, if they have one.

    7 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you talking about the

    8 statement -- there is a page with witness

    9 acknowledgement.

    10 MR. MISETIC: Yes. But I don't think -- mine

    11 is not signed, anyway. I don't know whether the court

    12 has a Bosnian version that is signed.

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, no, no, no. We have the

    14 English --

    15 MR. MISETIC: Oh, I'm sorry. I was looking

    16 at the last page. You're right. I apologise.

    17 Q. Page 4, ma'am. Do you see the witness

    18 acknowledgement? Is that your signature?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Could you please turn to page 2? It's

    21 approximately halfway down. For the court, the witness

    22 doesn't speak English. I will try to read it. It is

    23 the last underlined --

    24 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I

    25 would just like to note for the record, again, the fact

  51. 1 that Defence counsel is acting as our interpreter

    2 should just be noted, as opposed to having an official

    3 translation, if you would like to refer that part of

    4 the statement to the witness.

    5 MR. MISETIC: I have the same comment as I

    6 did this morning. I didn't have time during the lunch

    7 break to have the statement translated.

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: This statement was not provided

    9 to the court in the original language, Bosnian.

    10 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. It does not

    11 exist in the original language, Bosnian.

    12 JUDGE MUMBA: It's okay if the Defence

    13 counsel reads it in English and then the official

    14 interpretation is done.

    15 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I believe

    16 that that would be more proper.

    17 MR. MISETIC: That's what I meant. I wasn't

    18 going to do it myself.

    19 JUDGE MUMBA: No. So whereabouts?

    20 MR. MISETIC: If the court will note that

    21 there's an underlined sentence, at least on the copy I

    22 provided, and the sentence right after that.

    23 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

    24 MR. MISETIC: The sentence reads: "When Anto

    25 asked me to go to the home of Dzidic and see where the

  52. 1 men were. I said I cannot do this. It is

    2 impossible."

    3 Q. Do you recall that statement, Ma'am?

    4 A. No. What I said, that perhaps it was because

    5 of the translation or something, but one of the

    6 soldiers told me to go there and asked me if there were

    7 any men there, and then I turned to Anto because I was

    8 at a loss of what to do. They were trying to force me

    9 to go and then I turned to Anto and I said I just got

    10 up. I don't know whether anyone is there. May I put

    11 some shoes on or take a jacket?

    12 Q. I should say you did not do what that soldier

    13 asked you to do; correct?

    14 A. No, I didn't go. I put the shoes on but I

    15 did not go there.

    16 Q. When you refused to do as you were told, were

    17 you beaten?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Were you struck in any way?

    20 A. No, I was not struck, but they were -- I

    21 mean, they fired, as I said, down on the ground in

    22 front of my mother's and my feet.

    23 Q. In the house when you didn't do what you were

    24 asked to do, no one struck you; correct?

    25 A. No.

  53. 1 Q. I hate to ask you this question, but it's

    2 important for this case, Ma'am. No one attempted to

    3 sexually assault you, did they?

    4 MS. SELLERS: Objection, Your Honour, I think

    5 that is completely outside of the scope of the direct

    6 of this examination. I think that is a question that

    7 is irrelevant.

    8 MR. MISETIC: May I be heard?

    9 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Sellers, what was your

    10 reason for objecting? You're saying it was outside of

    11 what the examination-in-chief is all about.

    12 MS. SELLERS: Yes. There's been no testimony

    13 offered that Mr. Furundzija in any way touched anyone

    14 that day.

    15 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber thinks that

    16 it's a proper question to ask because this was a

    17 confrontation. We may as well hear what other details

    18 there could have been. The witness may answer the

    19 question. Maybe you can repeat it.

    20 MR. MISETIC: I'll repeat the question, yes.

    21 Q. No one attempted to sexually assault you that

    22 day, did they?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. The same applies to your mother?

    25 A. Yes.

  54. 1 Q. You never saw Anto Furundzija order anybody

    2 to do that to you, did you?

    3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter believes

    4 that the witness said no.

    5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please speak up so that the

    6 interpreters can pick up your answers.

    7 THE WITNESS: Yes, certainly.

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: The answer, can you repeat the

    9 answer to the last question?

    10 MR. MISETIC: Let me phrase the question so

    11 it's cleaner in the record.

    12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

    13 MR. MISETIC:

    14 Q. You never saw Anto Furundzija order anybody

    15 to do that to you, did you?

    16 A. That morning, no, I did not see it.

    17 Q. Ma'am, who told you to go to the main road?

    18 A. One of those soldiers, one of the group. You

    19 must realise, it was careless. Everything happened

    20 very quickly.

    21 Q. And is it possible that one of those soldiers

    22 was Anto Furundzija?

    23 A. I don't know because it was as we were coming

    24 out of the house, and other soldiers stayed behind,

    25 except for one who was in front of the house and who

  55. 1 called to those others to join him, so I don't know.

    2 I'm not sure. I can't say something that I'm not sure

    3 about.

    4 Q. Well, you don't exclude the possibility,

    5 then, that Anto Furundzija is the one that told you to

    6 go to the main road?

    7 A. I just don't know. I told you and in my

    8 statement too, that Anto never talked to me. I did

    9 talk to him but he kept silent all the while and just

    10 stood there. He simply did not talk.

    11 Q. You ultimately followed the advise you

    12 received and went down to the main road by the Pican

    13 Kafana (phoen); correct?

    14 A. We simply couldn't do anything else. I told

    15 you that they fired in front of our feet. It's not

    16 that we were obedient. We simply had no other choice.

    17 I mean, when somebody fires in front of your feet, is

    18 it that you obedience or is it that you do it simply

    19 because you must.

    20 MR. MISETIC: I have nothing further, Your

    21 Honours, thank you.

    22 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

    23 Re-examined by Ms. Sellers:

    24 Q. Witness B, did Anto Furundzija come to your

    25 house among five soldiers?

  56. 1 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to object, Your

    2 Honours, I think that has been covered in direct

    3 examination. Has it not been covered in direct

    4 examination?

    5 JUDGE MUMBA: She simply wants it

    6 emphasised.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Just to make it clear, Mr.

    8 Misetic, it's not in dispute is it, that he was there?

    9 Are you disputing that he was there that day.

    10 MR. MISETIC: I'm not going to comment on

    11 that.

    12 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter of commenting.

    13 I'm asking you to tell us what your case is. Is it

    14 disputed that the accused was there the day that the

    15 witness said he was or not.

    16 MR. MISETIC: I'm not a witness, but.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Come on, Mr. Misetic.

    18 What is your case about this?

    19 MR. MISETIC: My case is, Your Honours,

    20 regardless of what happened on that day, it has no

    21 relevance to this case.

    22 JUDGE MAY: That may be, but the evidence has

    23 now been given that he was there. If you're disputing

    24 that he was there, then you must put it to the witness

    25 so that she can answer.

  57. 1 MR. MISETIC: I never disputed it.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Very well, so we take it that the

    3 matter is not in dispute.

    4 MR. MISETIC: I can't speak for the court.

    5 I'm just saying that there was an objection as to

    6 starting to go over the same testimony that was

    7 elicited on direct examination.

    8 JUDGE MAY: I now know that it's much more

    9 important that the Prosecution goes through it because,

    10 although you are not disputing it entirely,

    11 you weren't saying in terms that it's not in dispute.

    12 Therefore the Prosecution are perfectly entitled to ask

    13 the question. I would allow it. Would you ask the

    14 question again, Ms. Sellers, and make it quite plain.

    15 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. Your Honour.

    16 Q. Was Anto Furundzija with the group of

    17 soldiers that came to your house on the morning of

    18 April 16th?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Were the group of soldiers armed and in

    21 uniform?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. They pushed you in the house and did they

    24 search your house after that?

    25 A. Yes.

  58. 1 Q. And eventually was it among the men in that

    2 group of soldiers that ordered you and your mother to

    3 leave the house?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Now, are you certain that the Anto Furundzija

    6 with whom you are referring to on that day is the Anto

    7 Furundzija who is sitting in court today?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. I

    10 have no further questions.

    11 MR. MISETIC: May I have an opportunity to

    12 ask two or three questions, since it's been re-opened

    13 on redirect?

    14 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I would

    15 just like to ask, I don't know if there is the

    16 opportunity to re-re-cross within the --

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, but she was simply

    18 repeating what was in examination-in-chief.

    19 MR. MISETIC: In lieu of Judge May's comments

    20 and in lieu of the fact that she has repeated the

    21 direct examination, verbatim, practically, I would like

    22 the opportunity to raise just a couple of issues since

    23 it is now in issue.

    24 JUDGE MUMBA: What is in issue.

    25 MR. MISETIC: I will limit it to three

  59. 1 questions.

    2 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I

    3 believe that he had that opportunity on cross. If he

    4 feels it was the nexus of my direct examination, that

    5 is the basis and that was the scope of his cross.

    6 MR. MISETIC: And she had the opportunity in

    7 direct and then she repeated her direct examination.

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: One of the purposes of

    9 re-examination is to clear up what was raised in

    10 cross-examination.

    11 MR. MISETIC: Exactly. I would like to clear

    12 something up with the witness.

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think that would be

    14 proper, Mr. Misetic, sorry. Any objection to the

    15 witness being released?

    16 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. That's

    17 exactly what I was going to ask you.

    18 MR. MISETIC: No objection.

    19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for coming

    20 to The Hague to give evidence. You are now released.

    21 (The witness withdrew)

    22 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you have the next witness?

    23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, at this time,

    24 might the Prosecution ask to take a small break prior

    25 to bringing in the other witness. We would like to

  60. 1 check something with the Victim and Witness Unit about

    2 the other witnesses and be able to inform the court of

    3 their status.

    4 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we rise, the Trial

    5 Chamber would like to find out from the Defence how

    6 much time they think they will need for the Defence

    7 case. Just an estimate, because we have two other

    8 cases ongoing, so we would like to know whether we will

    9 need to reschedule this case, if we can't finish it

    10 next week, because we are continuing next week.

    11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, we would need

    12 some more time beyond next week, due to scheduling

    13 difficulties with one of the witnesses. I would rather

    14 not discuss it at the moment. I would discuss it in

    15 camera, ex parte, if the court wants to know, but our

    16 cases, I would imagine, wouldn't take any longer than

    17 three days, and I would also throw in the caveat that

    18 much of it depends on what is elicited from the

    19 Prosecution's case.

    20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it your position that you

    21 would be able, perhaps, after the next witness, at

    22 least we have gone halfway, after the next witness, for

    23 instance, we shall have gone halfway.

    24 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

    25 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe I can raise that again in

  61. 1 closed session.

    2 MR. MISETIC: As you heard in my opening

    3 statement, the only real witnesses from our position,

    4 the only real witness is Witness A and so it depends on

    5 what happens with Witness A, regardless of what happens

    6 with the halfway point witness. I will again tell the

    7 court that at this time we plan no more than three days

    8 for our case.

    9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the other cases

    10 that are scheduled, we wouldn't be able to have even a

    11 week before October.

    12 MR. MISETIC: You wouldn't be able to have.

    13 JUDGE MUMBA: Even a week before October, so

    14 we wanted you to have this in mind so that by the end,

    15 maybe, of this week, you can be able to decide.

    16 MR. MISETIC: If we don't complete it by the

    17 end of next week, we have to wait until October.

    18 JUDGE MUMBA: Most likely because the other

    19 cases are ongoing, and there is a problem of the

    20 courtroom. When we think about it, we will re-open it

    21 at another stage before the end of this week.

    22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

    23 JUDGE MUMBA: The court will rise and we may

    24 raise this issue before we rise finally today.

    25 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

  62. 1 JUDGE MUMBA: How many minutes did you say

    2 you wanted? Maybe we will just take our normal break,

    3 20 minutes.

    4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, thank you.

    5 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

    6 --- Upon commencing at 4.00 p.m.

    7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness make the solemn

    8 declaration standing up?

    9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    11 truth.

    12 JUDGE MUMBA: This is Witness?

    13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is Witness C

    14 for the Prosecution.

    15 JUDGE MUMBA: Protective measures, face

    16 distortion?

    17 MS. SELLERS: Face distortion and the

    18 pseudonym.

    19 JUDGE MUMBA: Pseudonym, Witness C.

    20 MS. SELLERS: May I proceed?

    21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

    22 WITNESS C

    23 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

    24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness C.

    25 A. Good afternoon.

  63. 1 Q. Are you ready to begin?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Witness C, would you please tell us where you

    4 were born?

    5 A. In Vitez.

    6 Q. Is that Vitez which is in the Lasva Valley?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Have you lived in Vitez most of your adult

    9 life?

    10 A. Yes, I grew up there and I lived there as an

    11 adult.

    12 Q. Could you please inform the Trial Chamber of

    13 your ethnic background?

    14 A. I'm Bosnian and Muslim.

    15 Q. Thank you. Might I turn your attention now

    16 to April 16th, 1993. Were you living in Vitez on that

    17 date?

    18 A. Yes, I was. I lived in Vitez at the time.

    19 Q. Did anything unusual happen on the morning of

    20 April 16th?

    21 A. Because I worked, I had to get up rather

    22 early. And on that morning, I got up around five a.m.

    23 and I pulled up my blinds and I was surprised to see

    24 two houses on fire. My windows were facing old Vitez,

    25 so I called my husband and I told him that there was

  64. 1 fire. And I looked through the window and I saw some

    2 soldiers moving around quickly, so I discussed this

    3 with my husband. And as we were talking, we heard a

    4 very loud detonation.

    5 And then my husband and I, we wrapped our

    6 children in blankets, my daughters at that time were

    7 aged four and ten, and we hurried downstairs to the

    8 basement. Our neighbours were also going downstairs.

    9 They all went to the basement and we stood there and

    10 waited. The shooting started in the meantime around

    11 the building, but we didn't know what was happening.

    12 Q. Did there come a time period then afterwards

    13 where you left the basement and you went back up to

    14 your apartment?

    15 A. Since the children were still in their

    16 pyjamas, I had to go back, I had to bring some warm

    17 clothes for them. And I looked through the window and

    18 I saw another two or three houses on fire in Stari

    19 Vitez. So when I came back to the basement, I told my

    20 husband, "Something is going wrong. Houses in Stari

    21 Vitez are on fire." And the building that was in front

    22 of my house that I could see from the window, there

    23 were lots of soldiers around that building. And in

    24 that building, standing on the window, I could see them

    25 better than I saw them in the morning. They were all

  65. 1 wearing black uniforms or some of them were wearing

    2 camouflage uniforms, but most of them were in black

    3 uniform.

    4 Q. Could you see whether the soldiers were armed

    5 or not, Witness C?

    6 A. Though I could see them, I don't remember

    7 now. I'm sorry, I don't know.

    8 Q. Did you then go back down to the basement?

    9 A. Yes, I did, and I remained in the basement

    10 together with other people who lived in that building.

    11 Q. Did any of the soldiers ever enter into the

    12 basement?

    13 A. The entrance to our building was locked, and

    14 the tenants had made an agreement amongst themselves

    15 that we should not unlock the entrance door because we

    16 didn't know what was happening, and this is what we

    17 decided. But then we heard a very loud banging on the

    18 door and windows being smashed. Then one of my

    19 neighbours, she went to the door and she opened the

    20 entrance door to the building. Soldiers entered the

    21 building. They went upstairs towards the apartments,

    22 and some of them went downstairs to the basement.

    23 There were quite a few soldiers at the time.

    24 Q. And then when they went into the basement,

    25 could you please tell the court whether they called the

  66. 1 Muslim families out or not?

    2 A. Yes, they said that all Muslims should leave

    3 the basement, should get out. They first wanted us to

    4 identify ourselves, to show them our ID's, but not

    5 everyone had an ID with them, so they told us to go

    6 back to our apartments to get the identification

    7 papers. And then when quite a few people went upstairs

    8 to get these, then they said, "No, only Muslims should

    9 leave the basement and only Muslims should come in

    10 front of the building."

    11 Q. Did the soldiers also at that time send

    12 people to the cinema?

    13 A. Well, they first took us in front of the

    14 building, all of us, and they told us to stand in line,

    15 men, women. And they had some kind of masks on their

    16 faces, stockings that were pulled on their faces, and

    17 they stood in front of us with their weapons pointed at

    18 us. And I thought this was like an execution squad,

    19 and we were crying, and then they told us to keep

    20 quiet, that we would all be killed, and there were lots

    21 of curses, threats.

    22 Q. Witness C, did they send any of the people

    23 that were gathered outside of the apartment to the

    24 cinema?

    25 A. Yes, yes, they all went to the cinema, except

  67. 1 for myself and another woman who had a very small

    2 child. Her child was crying more than others and was

    3 hysterical, so the soldiers told her to keep the child

    4 quiet, but she didn't manage to do that, so she went

    5 back. And because I had a young child as well, they

    6 took me back as well. As for my husband and other men,

    7 they were all taken to the cinema which was part of the

    8 Workers' University.

    9 Q. Were the people who went to the cinema

    10 Muslims or Croats?

    11 A. Only Muslims.

    12 Q. Now, you mentioned that your husband was

    13 taken to the cinema. Could you tell us how long he

    14 stayed there?

    15 A. He stayed at the cinema until the 30th of

    16 April, that is, from the 16th until the 30th of April.

    17 Q. Did you ever go to see him in the cinema?

    18 A. When they took them there, at first I didn't

    19 know that they were there, at the cinema. I didn't

    20 know whether they were alive or not. But on the

    21 evening of that date, women and children were returned,

    22 so they told us that they had all been locked up in the

    23 boiler room that was part of the Workers' University,

    24 all men. So we kept inquiring but we didn't have any

    25 information at the time as to what was happening with

  68. 1 them.

    2 So we asked whether we could go there and see

    3 them, and then one of our neighbours asked the

    4 policeman, whether they were soldiers or policemen, I

    5 don't really know, but they were all wearing uniform,

    6 and he asked them to enable one of the women to go and

    7 visit there. So they let me go there and I took some

    8 basic things, some food and clothes, and I went to

    9 visit my husband for the first time.

    10 Q. Could you describe what you saw when you went

    11 to the cinema to visit your husband?

    12 A. Well, they all looked very exhausted and they

    13 were afraid for their children. They were all very

    14 dirty. The theatre had a number of seats, but there

    15 were too many people in there, so some of them were

    16 simply lying down on the floor or sitting down on the

    17 floor. All they wanted to know was whether we were

    18 alive, whether the children were okay and, you know,

    19 how things were in general.

    20 Q. While your husband was detained at the

    21 cinema, where did you continue to live?

    22 A. I was in the basement. I spent nine days,

    23 nine nights in the basement. I was there all the

    24 time. After that, we were allowed to go back to our

    25 apartments, but I and a few other neighbours couldn't

  69. 1 go back to our apartments because our windows were

    2 facing Stari Vitez, so we had to go back to the

    3 apartments belonging to other Muslims and the

    4 apartments with windows facing the hotel.

    5 Q. Did there come a time when you were still in

    6 the basement that you heard another big explosion?

    7 A. Yes. It happened on the third day of our

    8 stay in the basement, third day after the war had

    9 started in Vitez, the attack in Vitez. Women were

    10 probably watching TV at the time because people had

    11 brought TV sets in the basement, and we could only

    12 watch TV Vitez, which was broadcast by Croats, so I

    13 heard stories -- I heard that something was going on.

    14 One of our neighbours who was not there at

    15 the time, who had gone to Kolonija neighbourhood, she

    16 called us and she told me and one of my other

    17 neighbours to call her back. So my neighbour called

    18 her, and then she told me that this woman had told us

    19 to go back to our apartments, to go to her apartment as

    20 well, and to open all the windows and that we should

    21 not leave the basement after that, that we should not

    22 risk our lives because something terrible is going on,

    23 something terrible was about to happen.

    24 Maybe two or three hours after that, I don't

    25 know exactly how long, I went back to get some food for

  70. 1 the children. We were able to cook some food in the

    2 basement, but we kept the food upstairs in the

    3 apartment because we couldn't keep any food in the

    4 basement. So when I got -- when I entered the corridor

    5 of my apartment, I heard a very loud explosion and I

    6 was all covered in dust, and I was thrown away from the

    7 corridor and into the stairway. So I quickly ran down

    8 to my children. I didn't know at the time what -- I

    9 thought that the building would collapse.

    10 Q. Thank you. While you were staying in the

    11 basement again with your children during this time

    12 period, was the building guarded by soldiers?

    13 A. Yes, it was.

    14 Q. Do you know what types of soldiers there

    15 were?

    16 A. Many soldiers kept coming in and out. There

    17 was one soldier who was always there during the night,

    18 together with one of the tenants. They kept watch in

    19 the building, and we could not leave the basement. I

    20 myself didn't pay much attention. I took care of the

    21 children. But that part of the basement had been

    22 previously used for storing firewood, and this is where

    23 we stayed. From one part of the basement, you could

    24 see the stairway of the building. It was not a

    25 closed-in stairway, it was open. So my children

  71. 1 were -- you know how children are -- there were lots of

    2 children aged about 12 or 13, and they would make, you

    3 know, comments like "Jokers" or "Vitezovi are passing

    4 by," this is what I heard from them. I heard children

    5 mentioning these names. And I knew that they were

    6 Croat soldiers because they had insignia similar to the

    7 ones that you would -- to the sign you would see on a

    8 flag. But they were all HVO soldiers. And very often

    9 they had masks on their faces when they were in the

    10 basement or on the stairway, masks with only holes for

    11 their eyes.

    12 Q. Was there any sniping that took place in your

    13 building?

    14 A. While we were in the basement and at the

    15 beginning of that period, we were not allowed to go

    16 back to our apartments. At one point, they were -- we

    17 were ordered not to leave the area, not to go to the

    18 stairway. But we heard shooting, we heard shots; and

    19 then later on, we would be told not to go to the

    20 stairway. But some people managed to go upstairs to

    21 their apartments, to the third floor or the fourth

    22 floor, and then maybe for -- they would stay there for

    23 one hour, half an hour. But shots would be fired from

    24 the building and then we would hear more shooting

    25 around the building, and it was very -- it was terrible

  72. 1 when they would come to the building and when they

    2 would shoot from the building.

    3 Q. Would you please explain why they would shoot

    4 from your building, to your knowledge?

    5 A. I assume -- I mean, I know that they tried to

    6 shoot from my apartment because once, when I went back

    7 to the apartment, I saw that the curtains were torn;

    8 and after that, when we went back to our apartments,

    9 when everything returned to normal, we realised that

    10 there was some damage in the apartment. For example,

    11 one of my neighbours, she had an apartment with a very

    12 good view of Stari Vitez, and they fired from her

    13 apartment. But I was not present when they were there.

    14 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that you and your

    15 family could move back into an apartment. Did your

    16 husband join you from the cinema at that time?

    17 A. Ten days after he had been taken to the

    18 cinema, ten days into his stay in the theatre, he was

    19 very sick, so they let him out. I was in the basement,

    20 but I would go from time to time to somebody else's

    21 apartment. And then in the morning, HVO soldiers came

    22 again, and they took him away again.

    23 When he came back on the 30th of April, we

    24 spent several days in somebody else's apartment, and

    25 then after that, we were allowed to go back to our

  73. 1 apartment. Our apartment was a terrible mess at the

    2 time because they broke the door and we couldn't shut

    3 the door after that. They kept coming to our apartment

    4 searching for something, and it was not only the case

    5 of my apartment but the apartments of other Muslims as

    6 well.

    7 Q. Could you just describe very briefly a bit of

    8 your life in the building during the month of May 1993?

    9 A. It's very difficult. It was a very difficult

    10 period of time. We were only thinking of how we would

    11 survive. The conditions were very bad. We didn't have

    12 running water in the basement, we didn't have

    13 facilities to wash ourselves, wash the children; and

    14 later on, when we went back to the apartments, there

    15 would be three families living in one apartment

    16 because, for example, I couldn't go back to my own

    17 apartment. Shortly after that, we were running out of

    18 food. But in the end, we were lucky that we managed to

    19 survive this whole situation. We couldn't leave the

    20 building, we couldn't go out, we didn't have any

    21 contact with the outside world. But because I went to

    22 see my husband, I somehow managed to learn what the

    23 situation was. I learned about what had happened in

    24 Ahmici, I knew that there was a war going on, but I

    25 couldn't say that I was very well-informed of the

  74. 1 situation. I was afraid.

    2 Q. Did you feel that your family was in danger

    3 during the month of May?

    4 A. Well, we were in danger ever since the 16th

    5 of April because we kept hearing about people getting

    6 killed. There was a woman in our apartment building

    7 that was killed simply because she was a Muslim. There

    8 was no other reason for this killing. So there was a

    9 number of such incidents, killing incidents, in our

    10 apartment blocks. But that was the only one from our

    11 entrance.

    12 Q. Had you heard of Muslims being forced to

    13 leave their apartments?

    14 A. Yes. It was a daily occurrence.

    15 Q. On May 30th, did two people come to your

    16 apartment and inquire about it?

    17 A. Yes, two young men came to my apartment.

    18 They were unknown to me, I had never seen them before.

    19 They asked me to have my apartment exchanged for an

    20 apartment in Zenica, and I was taken by surprise

    21 because I never thought that I would leave the

    22 apartment. This was the apartment where I had been

    23 living ever since 1978. So I was surprised. And I

    24 asked them why. I thought these people had a very nice

    25 apartment. They told me they had a nice apartment, a

  75. 1 bigger one, and they said that they would give me their

    2 apartment in Zenica for my apartment in Vitez, and I

    3 told them that I wouldn't accept that.

    4 Q. And then what did you do directly after that,

    5 Witness C?

    6 A. Well, after that, when I came to my

    7 apartment, I told my husband, "Now it's our turn,"

    8 because this had already happened to several of our

    9 neighbours. They would be offered something like that,

    10 something similar, and then they would disappear. So I

    11 told my husband, "It's our turn now. We have to find

    12 some solution."

    13 Q. What was your solution?

    14 A. We found an acquaintance, a Croat, who would

    15 take us in his car. We didn't ask him where he was

    16 taking us, but it was in the direction of Zenica, in

    17 the direction of the road to Zenica, and this is how we

    18 went to Zenica. We didn't have much time left.

    19 Q. So you left the apartment that you had been

    20 living in?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. May I ask you, have you returned to Vitez to

    23 live now?

    24 A. To my apartment? No, no. And I couldn't

    25 live in Zenica because I had no place to live there, so

  76. 1 now I am living in a village in the municipality of

    2 Vitez in somebody else's house together with two other

    3 families again.

    4 Q. Could you tell the Tribunal the reason that

    5 you cannot go back to Vitez?

    6 A. They're not allowing us to go back. A Croat

    7 family has moved in our apartment in the meantime and

    8 they're living there now.

    9 Q. When you say "us," do you mean Muslims?

    10 A. Yes, yes, Muslims. They're not allowing

    11 Muslims to go back.

    12 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much. Your

    13 Honour, I have no further questions.

    14 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination, if any?

    16 Cross-examined by Mr. Misetic:

    17 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to ask you a couple of

    18 questions about what happened to you after you left the

    19 Vitez municipality and you went on to Zenica.

    20 When you arrived there, who took care of the

    21 refugees such as yourself in the Zenica municipality?

    22 A. When I left Vitez, I went to my

    23 sister-in-law, my father's sister, who lived in Zenica,

    24 she got married there, and she had a two-room

    25 apartment, and there were twelve of us living at that

  77. 1 apartment at the time. This is the reason why I went

    2 back to that village, because I could no longer stay

    3 there. It was only later on that I was registered with

    4 the Red Cross.

    5 Q. Tell me, did the people in Vitez -- or, I

    6 should say, the refugees from Vitez that arrived in

    7 Zenica, did you communicate often with each other about

    8 your experiences in Vitez?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. In particular, there was a school in Zenica

    11 where the inhabitants of Ahmici, who became refugees in

    12 Zenica, were housed; isn't that right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. You would go there and hear the stories that

    15 the people from Ahmici were telling about what happened

    16 to them; correct?

    17 A. Yes, of course. I heard stories from them.

    18 Q. Did everyone from Vitez eventually talk to

    19 these people and hear the stories coming out of Vitez,

    20 to your knowledge?

    21 MS. SELLERS: Objection, Your Honour. I

    22 would ask that the question be narrower. The witness

    23 would have no knowledge if everyone from Vitez heard

    24 these stories.

    25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Misetic?

  78. 1 MR. MISETIC: Let me rephrase it, if she


    3 Q. All of the people from Vitez that you had

    4 contact with, did they come to eventually hear the

    5 story of what happened in Ahmici?

    6 A. Mostly, yes.

    7 Q. Were there stories about who was involved in

    8 that attack?

    9 A. I know that Croats attacked Muslims.

    10 Q. At some point were you asked by the

    11 authorities in Zenica to give a statement?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Have you ever given another statement to

    14 anyone in Zenica?

    15 A. In Zenica, no, I never gave a statement to

    16 anyone in Zenica, except when the representatives from

    17 this Tribunal came to look for me.

    18 Q. Did you have any contact with a commission

    19 that was set up to take care of the refugees from

    20 Vitez?

    21 A. I was registered with the local commune, the

    22 one where I arrived, and this is where I received food,

    23 but I had no other contact with them.

    24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you for coming, ma'am.

    25 We have nothing further.

  79. 1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

    2 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour, I don't, and

    3 the Prosecution will not need the witness any further.

    4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness be released,

    5 Mr. Misetic?

    6 MR. MISETIC: Yes, we have no objection, Your

    7 Honour.

    8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much for coming

    9 to give evidence. You are released.

    10 (The witness withdrew)

    11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have the next witness,

    12 please?

    13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, at this time we

    14 would like to address the court concerning certain

    15 witness matters. We would like to ask that we go into

    16 closed session.

    17 JUDGE MUMBA: We will go into closed

    18 session.

    19 (Closed session)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  80. 1












    13 Pages 292 to 299 redacted - in closed session







    20 The hearing adjourned

    21 until Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at

    22 9.30 a.m.




Ex parte hearing (Closed Session)