Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 272

1 Monday, 27 November 2000

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 3.46 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, ladies and

7 gentlemen; good afternoon to the technicians, the interpreters; good

8 afternoon to everybody who is present here in the courtroom. In

9 particular, I should like, actually, for the Prosecutor to announce the

10 appearances, please, for this case.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the

12 counsel.

13 MR. IERACE: Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Mark Ierace;

14 I am the senior trial attorney for the Prosecution in this matter. The

15 Prosecutor is also represented today by Ms. Sureta Chana and Mr. Michael

16 Blaxill, and our case manager is Edel Guzman.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would

18 like to wish you welcome. Welcome aboard. We were informed of the

19 reasons which prevented you from being here earlier on, and we are happy

20 to have you finally here on this case.

21 The appearances for the Defence, please.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I am

23 attorney Mara Pilipovic from Belgrade. I was appointed, by decree of the

24 Registrar of the Tribunal, as Defence counsel for Mr. Galic, beginning

25 with the 24th of November, 2000.

Page 273

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But we still have Mr. Kostic

2 here.

3 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, good afternoon. According to the same

4 document filed by the Registry, Ms. Pilipovic, of course, was appointed on

5 the 24th and my assignment ends on the 1st of December. I have, of

6 course, been speaking to Ms. Pilipovic and so on. We can touch upon that

7 as we go along.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I should like

9 to take this opportunity to ask Madam Registrar to call the case.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-98-29-PT, the Prosecutor

11 versus Stanislav Galic.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We have

13 heard the appearances; we know each other more or less.

14 As regards the decision of the Registrar, as it has been indicated

15 by Madam Pilipovic - I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly -

16 Mr. Kostic will continue his representation until the 1st of December, and

17 Madam Pilipovic has been assigned as Defence counsel for General Galic

18 from now on.

19 I should like to call upon the professionalism of everybody

20 involved in this case to ensure that the change of counsel will not unduly

21 delay the preparation of the case. This is something that has already

22 been considered to a certain extent, and I should like you to bear that in

23 mind. Later on, we will see how we are going to proceed.

24 As regards our work and the Scheduling Order of the 4th of

25 October, 2000, the session today, as you know, will be, actually, a Status

Page 274

1 Conference which has been convened in the application of Rule 65 ter and

2 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, in order to discuss the

3 progress that has been accomplished so far in the preparation of the

4 case. We have had a number of Status Conferences which did not quite meet

5 their objectives, and I really hope that today we will be able to achieve

6 some results in terms of the preparation of the case.

7 We are going to divide our work in two parts. The first part will

8 be used for the hearing of the motion of the Prosecutor for the Trial

9 Chamber to travel to Sarajevo. This is something we have somehow left

10 open until today. And then the next part, the second half of the session,

11 will be a real Status Conference, during which we will discuss more or

12 less the same agenda that was established for the last Status Conference.

13 Let us now proceed. As you know, the Trial Chamber has ordered

14 the parties to negotiate a draft protocol for the proposed visit, and we

15 have also heard their submissions on this matter during previous

16 hearings. As I have indicated, this question has remained open, and I

17 should like to know how far you have got in the preparation of your task.

18 Without much further ado, I will give the floor to the

19 Prosecutor. Mr. Ierace, you have the floor.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. IERACE: I must get used to that.

22 Since the last Status Conference, the Office of the Prosecutor has

23 communicated to Mr. Kostic an itinerary and protocol for the proposed trip

24 to Sarajevo by the Trial Chamber. We have not heard any final position

25 from the Defence, including Mr. Kostic, in response to those documents,

Page 275

1 and therefore they have not been filed.

2 I should say that I anticipate that once Ms. Pilipovic has had an

3 opportunity to read the material and to obtain instructions, that it

4 should not take much time beyond that to finalise both the protocol and

5 the timetable.

6 The timetable, as it stands, lists various positions within

7 Sarajevo which the Prosecutor believes will assist the Trial Chamber to

8 better understand the evidence in the Prosecution case. It may be, as,

9 indeed, I think Mr. Kostic has indicated, that the Defence would wish to

10 add to that timetable and include some other positions in Sarajevo for

11 observation.

12 Your Honour, I should also indicate that Ms. Pilipovic and I met

13 this afternoon before the Status Conference in an effort to assist each

14 other as to what our needs are at this stage, and perhaps in so doing save

15 some time at the Status Conference this afternoon.

16 If it is of assistance to Your Honour, I could inform you of the

17 results of that meeting, and, in effect, I could respectfully suggest to

18 Your Honour an amendment to the timetable which ultimately may minimise

19 the loss of time occasioned by the change in counsel. Would that be

20 convenient to Your Honour?

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It might be useful, of course.

22 However, in my capacity as a Pre-Trial Judge, I cannot decide on this

23 matter. I have to inform my colleagues about our discussions here so that

24 the Chamber can make a decision. But, of course, it is very useful for us

25 to hear the results of your discussions.

Page 276

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 I'm advised by Ms. Pilipovic that she had an opportunity to have a

3 preliminary conference with her client this morning but she has not yet

4 received any material by way of the brief from Mr. Kostic. I spoke to

5 Mr. Kostic immediately before the commencement of the Status Conference,

6 and he informs me that he has brought with him much of the material which

7 has been served by the Prosecution on the Defence, as I understand it,

8 pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i) and (ii), and he intends to hand that to

9 Ms. Pilipovic later this afternoon. That leaves the balance of the

10 material which has been provided thus far by the Prosecution.

11 Your Honour, some time will have to transpire for the passage of

12 the balance of that material to Ms. Pilipovic before she can then read it

13 and obtain instructions. Might I respectfully suggest, and this is

14 entirely my own suggestion, that Mr. Kostic not be formally excused from

15 the proceedings until Ms. Pilipovic has received the balance of that

16 material. I don't mean any discourtesy to Mr. Kostic in saying that, but

17 it simply leaves with the Chamber a mechanism to ensure that there are no

18 difficulties in Ms. Pilipovic receiving the material.

19 Your Honour will be aware, as I am from having read the

20 transcripts of earlier Status Conferences, that there have been from time

21 to time some problems in transmitting and receiving material through

22 couriers.

23 Your Honour, I respectfully suggest that the matter be re-listed

24 before the Chamber at a date approximately three weeks hence. By that

25 time, the Chamber could confirm that Ms. Pilipovic has, indeed, received

Page 277

1 all of the material. She should also, by that time, have had an

2 opportunity to form an opinion as to how much additional time she will

3 require to absorb it, to obtain instructions, and to work with the

4 Prosecution in settling some of the matters in Rule 65 ter (E). I have in

5 mind the matters such as defining those matters of fact and law which are

6 contested and witnesses' exhibits which are contested. If the matter was

7 approached in that way, it is likely, I would submit, to minimise any loss

8 of time from the transference of representation.

9 I should also indicate, as I have informed Ms. Pilipovic, that the

10 Prosecution will give her every assistance in coming to terms with the

11 considerable quantity of material which has been provided thus far to the

12 Defence.

13 Your Honour, it seems to the Prosecution that, in view of the

14 unfortunate development in respect of representation of Mr. Galic, that

15 that might be an appropriate way to overcome and minimise the difficulties

16 occasioned by it.

17 Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. Ierace. Having heard your submissions, I think that we should perhaps

20 have to adapt the agenda to a certain extent, and to discuss in a

21 preliminary way all the issues that affect this transference of

22 representation instead of discussing the merits of all the issues that are

23 still pending. And once we have solved this preliminary issue, we will

24 decide whether or not we are going to continue with our schedule.

25 In view of that and in order to have a good appreciation of the

Page 278

1 situation, I should like to know how we stand today as regards

2 particularly the issue of transference of representation, and I should

3 also like to know what the situation is concerning Madam Pilipovic. I

4 don't know who I should give the floor to now. Both counsel have been

5 mentioned in respect of these issues, the issues that have been discussed

6 by the Prosecutor.

7 Let us first hear, perhaps, Madam Pilipovic, and then I will give

8 the floor to Mr. Kostic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I can

10 inform you that as Defence counsel of General Galic, I have not been

11 able -- I am not in a position to discuss the state of affairs of the

12 brief, as you stressed at the beginning of this meeting, and as provided

13 for by Rule 65 bis (A)(i), because I have received no material thus far.

14 I have already informed you that I have been appointed Defence counsel for

15 General Galic by decision of the Registry on the 24th of November, 2000,

16 and as soon as I received this in writing, this decree in writing from the

17 Registry on the 24th, and on the 27th I had a meeting with General Galic

18 in the premises of the Detention Unit, and all that I can do to assist the

19 Trial Chamber at the moment and you, Your Honour, is on the basis of the

20 information that I received from General Galic on that occasion.

21 Today I received from the Registry a diskette as a recording from

22 all the Status Conferences held in this trial to date so as to become

23 acquainted as quickly as possible with the subject matter and to allow me

24 to take steps as quickly as possible to ensure that no time is lost in

25 these proceedings and in this trial. And after my discussion with my

Page 279

1 learned friend of the Prosecution, it will require a lot of work but tempo

2 too.

3 My distinguished colleague, Mr. Mark Ierace, and I had a talk

4 today, and during that meeting we agreed in principle that a period of two

5 to three weeks would be the amount of time that I would require for me to

6 take over all the material and documents and to be able to tell you how

7 much time I think I will need, giving me a chance to read through the

8 brief and to take part, on a footing of equality, in all the proceedings.

9 I have also been informed by the Registrar that this is, of

10 course, a very serious case and that it will require a lot of effort, and

11 I have pledged to do my best. I have pledged to my colleagues that I will

12 engage my efforts to the full and that I shall do my utmost to cooperate

13 with them.

14 I should also like to tell you that I have presented a plan of

15 work to my colleagues which will help us arrive at the best possible

16 results. And I should also like to say that Mr. Kostic's associates who

17 were on the team, they have informed me how far they have come in the

18 brief and the case. But, as I say, I shall be able to fully do this once

19 I receive all the documents from my learned colleague, Counsel Kostic.

20 My learned colleague Mr. Kostic is here with us this afternoon,

21 and may I propose that you give him the floor and then Mr. Kostic himself

22 will be able to tell us how long it will take him to supply me with all

23 the material.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 280

1 Mr. Kostic.

2 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, I have actually brought with me a rather

3 large duffle bag which contains all the materials in the B/C/S language,

4 which I'm prepared to give or hand over to Ms. Pilipovic today or tomorrow

5 morning, depending on her situation. It's pretty heavy. I have then

6 arranged to air-freight to her office the documents which are in the

7 English language which I do feel she needs to have. She can perhaps work

8 with an interpreter to go through those. But the important documents that

9 I brought with me are all in a language which she reads and speaks and

10 she'll be able to work on.

11 I also have brought with me other documents which are some

12 preliminary documents which she is going to have to make a decision

13 about. So all of that will be done either today, tomorrow, or within the

14 next -- I would say, at the most, a week or so, Judge, to be sent to her,

15 and then I can't -- you know, I'm going to scour and make sure that all

16 the other boxes and files in my office are going to be re-checked and make

17 sure that we haven't missed anything. I have indicated to the

18 investigative team in Banja Luka that Ms. Pilipovic will be working on the

19 case, and I'm absolutely satisfied that they will give her 100 per cent

20 cooperation in this case.

21 I have also indicated to her that there are some documents in the

22 English language which she needs to know about, and I don't want her to

23 lose a lot of time. So what I have told her is that I will be able to

24 meet with her and deal with her and talk with her and assist her even

25 beyond December 1st. That's not a problem, Judge.

Page 281

1 You may not know, but Ms. Pilipovic and I have known each other

2 for a number of years and our offices have done work together, so there's

3 absolutely no problem in that regard. So I will do everything that I can

4 do to make sure that she will, within the next two or three weeks, at

5 least be able to review all of the B/C/S materials. So that I will do.

6 I'm sure that if there are things that have slipped my mind as I

7 speak with you that come up in the next day or two, I will be able to

8 assist her in that regard.

9 Oh, I may add one other thing, Judge; we did have a list of

10 adjudicated facts that Mr. Blaxill, at the time, and I were dealing with.

11 What we did do, and what I did to try and cut down the time in that regard

12 is to go through the various ICTY judgements that deal with adjudicated

13 facts - essentially the Tadic and the Celebici cases - and I have

14 earmarked some of my work in order to segregate out the paragraphs that go

15 to the adjudicated facts. That will make it a lot easier for

16 Ms. Pilipovic to deal with that issue when it comes up. So that has

17 pretty much been done already. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, I should like to

19 know, having heard your submissions where you said you would need two or

20 three weeks to review the documents, but let me tell you -- can you tell

21 us now, at this point, when do you think you will be ready to become a

22 part of the proceedings in the sense that they have already started? When

23 do you think you will be actively ready to participate? When will you be

24 able, for example, to respond to the pre-trial brief, the list of

25 witnesses, the list of exhibits, and your participation in the preparation

Page 282

1 of the case, pursuant to Rule 65 ter (F); that is, the participation of

2 the Defence in this stage of the proceedings, that is, to state what is

3 going to be the nature of your defence, for example? What are the

4 documents, if there are any, that you think you will contest in terms of

5 authenticity, and so on and so forth. So can you tell us, more or less,

6 when do you think you will be able to proceed with this kind of work?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

8 let me say that I shall be informing you in the shortest possible period

9 of time, but I will assess that that will be two to three weeks at the

10 most, if I receive the complete set of documents, and I'll be able to

11 inform you then. Now, how long I will actually need to be able to take

12 part in the proceedings with respect to Rule 65 ter, I'll be able to tell

13 you at some point when Mr. Kostic hands the material over to me, when I

14 see how much material there is. That is to say, if I receive the

15 materials within the next two or three weeks, once I have seen the

16 material, I will be able to inform you how long it will take me; and that

17 is something that I told my learned colleagues, that is, if I receive all

18 the material.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think we can already agree

20 that within three weeks Ms. Pilipovic will notify the Chamber what is her

21 position in terms of preparedness in order to participate actively in this

22 stage of the proceedings. After that, the Chamber is going to make a

23 ruling or, rather, issue a Scheduling Order, because we were about to

24 finish the pre-trial stage. Now it has been prolonged. However, the

25 reasons are perfectly justified. You will notify the Chamber when you

Page 283

1 will be able to start participating in the proceedings in an active way.

2 Do you agree with that, Ms. Pilipovic?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to address a few

5 questions to the Prosecutor in order to use this time as best as we can.

6 The Prosecutor, of course, needs to prepare his work at this stage of the

7 proceedings, and we have given a few indications to that effect, and I

8 think that the Prosecutor should consider these guidelines of the

9 Chamber.

10 First of all, as regards the pre-trial brief, we, the Chamber,

11 have agreed that it should not exceed 50 pages. The pre-trial brief of

12 the Defence should not exceed 30 pages, which, of course, does not include

13 the lists that have been mentioned here.

14 There is one thing, which is the preliminary brief with the points

15 of agreement and disagreement, and then we also have the list of witnesses

16 and list of exhibits.

17 So the pre-trial brief should not exceed 50 pages. I think it is

18 useful for the Prosecutor to have this particular piece of information as

19 his guideline.

20 There's one other thing that I wanted to mention to the

21 Prosecutor. As regards the list of witnesses, even bearing in mind the

22 specificity of this case, that is, the city of Sarajevo and the complexity

23 that it entails, but as Mr. Kostic has mentioned, we also have other cases

24 to consider in terms of judicial notice - Tadic, Celebici, even perhaps

25 Talic and Brdjanin or Krstic - those are all cases that touch upon, to a

Page 284

1 certain extent, on our present case, that have certain common elements

2 with this case.

3 As regards the specificity of the Galic case, I should like the

4 Prosecutor to categorise, so to speak, his witnesses. The list of

5 witnesses, if the Prosecutor is able to assist the Chamber in this manner,

6 should make a distinction between the following: First of all, we have

7 witnesses who will come to testify about the acts and the behaviour of the

8 accused, that is, the witnesses who will bear directly on his behaviour

9 and his acts.

10 Second, it is necessary -- it will be necessary to make a sublist,

11 if I can call it that way, of witnesses who would be testifying about the

12 same facts, or the witnesses who have already testified about similar

13 facts in some other case.

14 The reason for this is because very often we have a situation when

15 a witness comes to testify about a case and then he comes for a second and

16 a third time in different cases. If that should be the case with your

17 witnesses, the Chamber would like to know who these witnesses are; that

18 is, you should notify the Chamber whether the witness is testifying for

19 the first time or if the witness has already testified in another case.

20 Third, as regards a third sublist, we would like to know who are

21 the witnesses who will come to testify about historical, political, and

22 military context of the case, something that is commonly referred to as

23 background witnesses. All these witnesses will have to be part of one and

24 the same group, that is, the witnesses who will testify about military,

25 political, and general background.

Page 285

1 Fourth, the fourth group concerns a different aspect of the case.

2 We should like to know who will be the witnesses who will testify about

3 the ethnic makeup of the population in the places indicated in the

4 indictment. So if you intend to call witnesses who will testify about

5 that aspect of the case, we would like to know specifically who those

6 witnesses will be.

7 And the fifth list of witnesses will consist of those witnesses

8 who will come to testify about the personality of the accused or about the

9 issues that go to the sentencing. I think that this is something that is

10 perhaps more interesting for the Defence; however, since we are now in the

11 pre-trial stage of the Prosecutor's case, we thought that it would be

12 useful to mention this as well to the attention of the Prosecutor.

13 There is one other aspect of the preparation that I should like to

14 mention as regards the preliminary brief of the Prosecutor, pursuant to

15 Rule 65 ter. The Prosecutor should inform us whether he intends to call

16 expert witnesses, and I believe that this issue is a complex one and it

17 should be discussed with the Defence as well, because the Defence might

18 want to offer a counter-expert, an expert of their own. If the Prosecutor

19 wishes to reply, he can reply. And perhaps in trying to agree on these

20 matters in a preliminary way, we will avoid the situation where we will

21 have to call several expert witnesses to testify in the courtroom. So

22 there can be an exchange between the parties before the actual calling of

23 witnesses to testify in the courtroom.

24 There was one other matter that I wished to mention to the

25 Prosecutor. As regards the list of witnesses, we would like the

Page 286

1 Prosecutor to address the issue of protective measures together for all

2 witnesses, and in that way, the Chamber will be able to decide right at

3 the beginning on all these specific requests instead of having to deal

4 with it when the witness is -- before the witnesses actually enter the

5 courtroom. So I should like to recommend this procedure to the

6 Prosecutor.

7 Please also bear in mind the existing case law in this matter,

8 similar decisions from other cases. That should also be indicated to us.

9 Also, when it comes to judicial notice, you should adopt the same

10 procedure, and also to inform us if there are any indications that we will

11 have to deal with Rule 94 ter, that is, the issue of affidavits.

12 These are just remarks for the Prosecutor so that we can proceed

13 in the most efficient way possible. So these are the recommendations of

14 the Chamber for the Prosecution at this stage of the proceedings.

15 I think that in the communication between the Prosecution and

16 Ms. Pilipovic, they have to be mindful of this objective in this

17 particular stage of the proceedings. Please try to finish your pre-trial

18 brief as soon as possible, try to agree on the judicial notice and the

19 adjudicated facts as soon as possible, inform us of the points of

20 agreement and disagreement, and please have the list of exhibits ready as

21 soon as possible.

22 As regards Madam Pilipovic, let me remind you of the philosophy we

23 have followed in the proceedings so far. As you know, Rule 65 ter says

24 the following: The trial Judge will require the Prosecutor to file the

25 pre-trial brief as soon as possible. I am quoting from memory. The idea

Page 287

1 is that we deal with all these issues altogether, and afterwards, once we

2 have the results of our joint work, the parties will agree to a document.

3 The other possibility is to have all the pre-trial briefs here and

4 then to discuss them later on. We prefer to discuss matters here, in the

5 courtroom, in order to come up with a pre-trial brief which will have

6 covered points of agreement and disagreement. This is the kind of work

7 that we have -- the kind of procedure that we have adopted so far. So the

8 Prosecutor will make his submissions in terms of the pre-trial brief, the

9 Defence will respond to that, and on the basis of the results of that

10 exchange, we will proceed.

11 I don't think that we should be discussing the agenda that has

12 been prepared for today, in view of the current situation; however, I

13 should like to hear the view of the parties.

14 Mr. Ierace, what is your opinion? How do you think we are going

15 to proceed? Are we going to continue working and then meet again at a

16 certain date? We don't know yet when because Ms. Pilipovic will only tell

17 us later on when she thinks she will be able to continue.

18 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I would be in favour of the course of

19 meeting before the Christmas break so that we can consider in some detail

20 the timetable from that point on.

21 Your Honour, might I respond to two aspects of the guidance that

22 you have provided to the Prosecution in preparing the matters which are

23 required under Rule 65 ter (E). I'd seek latitude in two respects.

24 The first is the length of the pre-trial brief. I can inform Your

25 Honour that the second draft of the pre-trial brief presently numbers 128

Page 288

1 pages which, no doubt, reflects the complexity of the law which is

2 involved in this trial. The overriding objective of the pre-trial brief

3 is to assist in the understanding of the Prosecution case. Your Honour,

4 I'd be grateful if there could be a little latitude with the limit of 50

5 pages. I certainly accept that there is an overriding need for that brief

6 to be concise. At the moment, probably two-thirds of the pre-trial brief

7 deals with the complex issues of law which arise. Therefore, a little

8 latitude with the limit of 50 pages would be gratefully received.

9 The second aspect was in relation to the particular categories of

10 the witnesses that Your Honour posed. I certainly understand how it would

11 assist the Chamber to be able to go to categories of witnesses which are

12 defined in terms of their relevance to particular issues of evidence. It

13 may be that the labels that Your Honour has suggested do not conveniently

14 ascribe the major categories.

15 Would it be acceptable to Your Honour if the Prosecution accepted

16 the essence of what Your Honour has proposed and then modified the labels

17 accordingly so that ultimately the Chamber would be able to access the

18 list of witnesses and immediately go to the relevant areas of the

19 Prosecution case?

20 Your Honour, there is one further matter which I will bring to

21 your attention. I can assure Your Honour that any time which the Defence

22 requires in order to contribute to the pre-trial stage will not be lost

23 time, as far as the Prosecution is concerned. There is much that can be

24 done to the Prosecution brief by way of refinement, and by that I mean

25 both further eliminating witnesses and also appropriately modifying areas

Page 289

1 of evidence, so that ultimately the Prosecution case will progress

2 smoothly and, consequently, the trial. I give Your Honour that

3 assurance.

4 Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ierace. I can

6 perhaps consider certain of your submissions or review them, in view of

7 what I have said. One-hundred and twenty-eight is much higher than ideal;

8 I think the pages are far too many. I think you can, perhaps, make an

9 additional effort and try to put only the essential aspects of the problem

10 in your text and perhaps bring it down to perhaps 100 pages. That work

11 is -- you should put only what is necessary and sufficient in your

12 pre-trial brief. It is a very useful exercise. I really do not wish to

13 restrict you too much, but perhaps you can have the number of 100 pages as

14 an objective. I know you will have additional work to do in that respect,

15 but please bear that in mind.

16 As regards witnesses that have to do with the complexity and the

17 specificity of the case -- however, let me share with you my objective

18 when it comes to witnesses.

19 As you know, the problem of the Tribunal is the problem of

20 judicial economy and the time of the Judges, working time of the Judges.

21 The hearing time, the time spent directly in trial, is the time that is

22 dedicated to witnesses. Everything else, all other issues, can be dealt

23 with either through motions, affidavits, judicial notice, exhibits. Even

24 expert witness reports can be dealt with between the parties. Judges can

25 read written documents and they can evaluate an expert witness' opinion in

Page 290

1 writing. So why call an expert witness to testify before the Chamber if

2 his testimony can be dealt with in a written way?

3 I know that one of the essential principles of the proceedings is

4 the principle of orality, but that does not prevent us from writing

5 documents and making written submissions, if possible. That should be our

6 objective. Because if the Chamber has to render an opinion, if it has to

7 render a ruling as regards the testimony of witnesses in terms of

8 affidavits and preliminary statements, the Chamber has to have certain

9 documents beforehand. The parties know very well their case and they can

10 inform the Chamber beforehand of the state of affairs.

11 I wanted to share this with you, this objective of our work, so

12 that you can organise your work. If you cannot perhaps categorise your

13 witnesses in five groups, as I have indicated, you can perhaps do so in

14 four groups, but please tell us what the differences are amongst the

15 witnesses. Identify for us the witnesses who will be testifying about

16 facts and those who will be testifying about the personality of the

17 accused. I hope that during our next Status Conference we will be able to

18 discuss matters further on.

19 Let me ask the same question to Madam Pilipovic. Do you think

20 that we should be discussing the agenda as it has been proposed today, or

21 do you think it would be more useful for you to go and examine your

22 documents?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has already said that

24 we are not in a position to state our views with respect to the case. So

25 I beg the Trial Chamber's indulgence - and General Galic agrees to this -

Page 291

1 that enough time be left to the Defence for it to prepare the defence

2 case, regardless of the amount of time that has been wasted so far.

3 Because should we insist upon just a speedy trial, this would affect the

4 quality of the Defence work, if we were to speed up matters too much, and

5 it would be reflected on the fair trial that General Galic would like to

6 see and expects, indeed, of this Tribunal.

7 Having said that, I received the decree dated the 24th of

8 November. I will, in the ensuing period, have a chance to become

9 acquainted with all the Status Conferences held to date and the

10 transcript. I need to travel to Banja Luka itself to meet my associates

11 who were in Mr. Kostic's Defence team, and to receive the complete brief.

12 That would put me in a position to inform you as to the time I shall

13 require to become completely acquainted with the brief and the proceedings

14 and to be able to work on a footing of equality with my colleagues.

15 I think that over the next three weeks I shall be in a position to

16 inform you as to when a good time to meet next would be.

17 Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

19 Ms. Pilipovic. We will wait for those three weeks to pass. I hope you

20 will notify us at the time, and the Chamber will be able to issue a

21 Scheduling Order for the continuation of this case. I know that we all

22 have a lot of work to do at this point, but it seems that we will have to

23 wait for another three weeks to decide how we will proceed.

24 I should also like to call upon the Registrar to spare no effort

25 in helping Mr. Kostic and Madam Pilipovic to carry out this transitional

Page 292

1 period.

2 Before we adjourn, I should like to give the floor to General

3 Galic. General Galic, will you please stand up.

4 [The accused stands]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General, is there anything that

6 you would like to tell me as regards your health condition or the

7 conditions of your detention?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Rodrigues, I have

9 nothing to add to what I have said previously. Health doesn't change that

10 fast so I don't think I can see that there are any substantial changes.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, General.

13 You may sit down.

14 [The accused sits down]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe that we have covered

16 all important issues at this point, so I think that I can adjourn this

17 session.

18 If I don't see you before Christmas, I should like to wish you a

19 lot of success in your work during the holidays, and if I don't see you

20 before next year, Happy New Year.

21 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

22 4.38 p.m.