Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 862

1 Thursday, 6 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Good

6 afternoon, General Galic.

7 Please could you call the case, Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Before continuing the cross-examination of the witness, I'd like

12 to give a few oral decisions on motions. There's one motion of the 30th

13 of October, Prosecutor's request for protective measures for witnesses.

14 The motion is granted with a few exceptions. In respect of Witnesses H,

15 N, and AE, the Prosecution has mainly given subjective reasons why the

16 witnesses seeks protective measures but no supporting objective

17 circumstances for the request. The Chamber invites the Prosecution to

18 give further information in that respect or to state reasons why it cannot

19 do so. No decision as yet is taken, therefore, on the motion in respect

20 of the Witnesses H, N, and AE.

21 The Chamber has considered in granting the motion in respect to

22 the other witnesses that although a full public character of a trial is of

23 great importance, the measures requested are limited in their effect on

24 the public that wants to follow the proceedings. Apart from not being in

25 a position to know the identity of the witnesses, the measures do not

Page 863

1 disable the public to follow the proceedings in full. The accused is not

2 limited in the exercise of the rights attributed to him to defend

3 himself.

4 There's another motion of the 30th of October that's concerning

5 the witness which has got a provisional pseudonym AF. The motion is

6 granted, as far as the assignment of pseudonym is concerned, and that any

7 information which identifies him in any public record be expunged from

8 that record.

9 In respect of the request of the witness to testify in closed

10 session, no decision is taken as yet, and the Prosecution is invited to

11 give additional information in respect of the necessity of specifically

12 this measure.

13 And then there's still a motion pending which is a motion of the

14 29th of October. A written decision on this motion will be given, which

15 will take us some more time, but it's our intention - that's not a

16 guarantee, but it's an intention - to give the decision before the

17 judicial recess starts on the 15th of December, and the Chamber thinks

18 that this will not in any way at this moment obstruct the continuation of

19 the proceedings.

20 These are the decisions on the motions.

21 I further informed the parties that although I do not say anything

22 about other things that have been discussed in closed session yesterday,

23 that we have considered the subjects and we continue considering them.

24 I have to check one of the remarks of one of my colleagues. If

25 you will please give me one second for that.

Page 864

1 Thank you for your patience. So we have now come at the moment

2 where we can proceed with the cross-examination of witness -- of the

3 witness.

4 Could the usher please bring in the witness, Mr. Kovac.

5 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, I hesitate to interrupt you at that

6 point, but it was proposed -- when I broke yesterday, I did not indicate

7 that examination-in-chief was --

8 JUDGE ORIE: This is a mistake. I'm terribly sorry, Mr. Blaxill.

9 We are not yet at the cross-examine. Of course, you can proceed in

10 continuing the examination-in-chief.

11 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you for that, Mr. President.

12 There is just, however, one thing I would like to raise with the

13 Chamber just prior to resuming the examination of the witness. I believe

14 Your Honours might appreciate at this time, and in particular to the next

15 section of his evidence, the ability to refer to a map of Sarajevo,

16 because you have been given, of course, some visual aid in the course of

17 the opening by my learned friend. But since then, you have not been able

18 to make reference to a map. So it is the Prosecution's intention to offer

19 to the Court and tender to you the visual aids essentially that you had in

20 the course of the opening in terms of a colour map of small scale for

21 personal use, which we distributed to the Court and my learned friends for

22 the Defence, which is essentially a small version of the large map you see

23 on the stand in front of you and also a black and white map of larger

24 scale where the features are more legible and more prominent. So subject

25 to any comment by my learned friends, I do offer you those to be tendered

Page 865

1 into the Court and for your assistance and reference.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand the Defence has seen the map and they

3 agree that this is a map that can be used or --

4 MR. BLAXILL: I don't believe that the Defence have as such been

5 shown these maps specifically before. They are simply -- they are popular

6 maps, they are public maps. And of course there has been some reference

7 certainly in the course of the opening to the existence of this one which

8 has been seen.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would allow me to be very practical, I would

10 like to avoid any discussion later as to whether the map is correct or

11 not. We will not take a decision on the admissibility of this map in

12 evidence until the Defence has had an opportunity to look at the map and

13 see whether they could agree with the correctness of this map.

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you would --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

16 Mr. President. I'm not an expert in computers, nor in reading charts or

17 maps. If the Prosecution could help me, what is the scale? I can't see

18 exactly, the scale of the map?

19 MR. BLAXILL: We will be able to answer that question in just a

20 moment, Your Honour.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think I've seen it, 1 to

22 12,500. One has to see it from a distance.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's what it says on the top.

24 Any other remarks to be made? Thank you very much. This also

25 might be a moment for me to say a couple of words on documents that have

Page 866

1 been discussed in this courtroom of which the status is not very clear.

2 We'll sort it out, but this Chamber intends to have some kind of

3 registration of whatever documents that have been shown either during the

4 opening statement or at whatever other moment. But documents that are not

5 intended to be tendered in evidence, but at least later on we know what

6 these documents were we were discussing at that time, although they might

7 have no probative value in whatever way. Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I wonder whether that same

9 system could be useful for the purpose of showing an item to a witness at

10 one stage of the proceedings, and then for whatever reason tendering that

11 item as an exhibit at a later point by using the marking system to which

12 you refer, there can then be no doubt that the item which had been shown

13 to the witness is the same as that which is being tendered at a later

14 stage.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's our intention at least to identify properly

16 whatever document that goes in this courtroom. But I still have to

17 discuss it with the court management. But we'll solve that problem and

18 we'll let you know immediately once we have found a final solution for the

19 problem.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could give a practical example,

21 it might assist you in your deliberations. At some stage in the next few

22 days, the Prosecution proposes to play a clip of video to one or more

23 witnesses and invite them to comment on what appears in the video. But

24 rather than tender the video at this stage, the Prosecution proposes to

25 tender it formally at a later stage, the reason being that as the number

Page 867

1 of video clips accumulate, they could all be conveniently placed on the

2 one videotape or the one DVD disk at the time of tendering to make it

3 easier for Your Honours and the Defence and the Prosecution to have access

4 to the various video clips. Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I will respond to that immediately that it should be

6 clear from the beginning of whether it's a video clip or something else,

7 that if it is intended, even if it would be a later stage, to tender it

8 into evidence that it is clear right at the beginning what the status is

9 going to be of that video clip or object whatsoever. We will work that

10 out with the court management and let you know in more detail I hope by

11 tomorrow afternoon.

12 So now, without making mistakes, it's up to the Prosecution to

13 continue the examination-in-chief of the witness. Would Mr. Usher please

14 bring in the witness.

15 [The witness entered court]


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac. Can you hear me in a

19 language you understand? I have not yet received an answer. Can you hear

20 me, Mr. Kovac, in a language you understand?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Perhaps a unnecessary but, I would like

23 to remind you that you are bound by the solemn declaration you made at the

24 beginning of your testimony.

25 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.

Page 868












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Page 869

1 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm oblige.

2 Examined by Mr. Blaxill [Continued]:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac. Are you well rested from yesterday?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now today, sir, I'm going to be asking you a number of questions

6 on some specific issues, and I will be wanting to focus, if we can, on the

7 period from September 1992 to August of 1994, and not any time periods

8 particularly outside of those dates.

9 As I do so, Mr. Kovac, I will try to keep my questions clear and

10 fairly short, and I would be grateful if you could try and answer as

11 shortly as you can to give the information that you need to give, of

12 course. This will make it, I think, quicker and certainly much easier for

13 the interpreters and for their Honours to get the evidence they need.

14 The first question I would ask you that comes from other matters

15 we had spoken about yesterday was that your Civil Defence people, did they

16 have any form of uniform or working clothes that they wore?

17 A. Well, there were some -- there was some clothing that the Civil

18 Defence people wore, and they were inherited from the times of

19 ex-Yugoslavia, that is to say before the war, and they were worn during

20 the war.

21 Q. Can you tell us what sort of clothing that was? Perhaps its

22 colour and any insignia that might have been placed upon it.

23 A. Yes. They were the blue suits of the Civil Defence with the Civil

24 Defence emblem on them.

25 Q. And what was the Civil Defence emblem?

Page 870

1 A. It was the international insignia of the Civil Defence, with a

2 round logo and a triangle in the middle.

3 Q. Can you tell us the colours of the round logo and triangle?

4 A. It was yellow with a blue triangle in the middle.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Kovac, I'd like to move, if I may, as I said, to the

6 period from September 1992 onwards and ask you specifically about the

7 issue of what protection may have been offered from shelling to the

8 civilians of Sarajevo. Sir, through winter of 1992 and 1993, was there

9 anything in particular Civil Defence was able to do to protect people from

10 the impact of shells or the effects of the impact of shells, I should say?

11 A. Well, the Civil Defence system protected dwellings, apartment

12 buildings especially those that were damaged by the shelling. It was a

13 very hard and difficult winter, and the Civil Defence helped people.

14 Q. Was there anything physical they could do to offer actual

15 protection to people from the impact of the shells?

16 A. Yes. Shelters were made.

17 Q. And do you recall from 1992 onwards how many shelters you were

18 able to create in the city and whereabouts did you locate those shelters?

19 A. They were shelters, in fact, that had been built before the war.

20 They already existed in apartment buildings. And the basements and

21 cellars were of course used as well. They provided shelter. And at least

22 some form of protection. Every apartment building had a basement area, or

23 rather a shelter.

24 Q. Sir, basically was that the only real way civilians had to protect

25 themselves from shelling, was to go into shelters?

Page 871

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You've made mention that in the distribution of food and water,

3 you moved the locations where the citizens had to gather to collect it.

4 Did those movements manage to avoid them being shelled?

5 A. Yes. That was the aim of it precisely because of the shelling.

6 Q. When you made a movement from one place to another, did you find

7 that it, then, escaped being shelled or did somehow later that place also

8 receive shelling?

9 A. Well, we worked on the basis of the experience we gained, and

10 according to the developments, the circumstances. And as there were a

11 certain number of places that were shelled during the time that

12 humanitarian aid was being distributed, we had to organise ourselves in

13 such a way that we would change the locations where the aid would be

14 distributed, the distribution points, in order to avoid casualties.

15 Q. And when you moved from one place to the next, how long would that

16 next location remain safe from shelling, or was it impossible to tell?

17 A. Perhaps a few months.

18 Q. And at that point, let me ask, what sort of shelling, if you're

19 able to say, what sort of shelling was it of those civilian gathering

20 points? I mean, are you able to say whether it was by big guns or by

21 mortars or by some other kind of weapon?

22 A. They were mortars, mortar shells, and they were able to locate

23 their targets even with the protection we set up for the distribution

24 points, because the mortars were able to target indirectly, which means on

25 the basis of maps, the precise location of a target could be determined

Page 872

1 where people were gathering.

2 Q. If that required the use of maps, have you any knowledge as to how

3 the people using those mortars might have accessed those maps?

4 A. On the basis of certain information, some people who worked in the

5 municipality in the land registry department took with them part of the

6 documentation and the maps from Sarajevo. And probably it was those maps

7 that they used to be able to ascertain with great precision where these

8 locations were.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, as regards my last area on the protection from

10 the shelling of the civilians, were those protections simply using of

11 shelters and moving of distribution points? Were they the only

12 precautions you could take through 1993 and into 1994?

13 A. In addition to those precautions, we also made special shelters in

14 settlements and passageways between houses, especially in visible areas,

15 areas that could be seen from the surrounding hills, that is. And by

16 doing so, we tried to provide as much safety and security for the

17 civilians as we could and protect their movements to and from their

18 houses.

19 Q. If I may turn to another topic, Mr. Kovac, what about protective

20 measures for the civilians in respect of the sniping that was going on and

21 we have been told about from 1992 to 1994? What measures were you able to

22 take in that respect?

23 A. On the basis of reports coming in to the Civil Defence staff from

24 the various localities in the municipality, and these points were treated

25 as danger zones, and they were usually passageways or the space between

Page 873

1 two buildings, and that is where a lot of the civilians were killed,

2 passing in between buildings or crossing over, crossing the roads, because

3 they had to move quickly in those zones. And as these were wide open

4 spaces, which meant that they were wide open to continuous sniper fire,

5 when visibility was low, which meant predominantly at night and when it

6 was foggy, we helped set up shelters or protective devices to protect the

7 citizens when they were passing. These protective devices proved to be a

8 little more secure, a little safer, than without them.

9 Q. Could I stop you there at that point, Mr. Kovac, thank you.

10 MR. BLAXILL: I wonder if, Your Honours, we could have the colour

11 map placed on the ELMO for the use of the witness, please.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Kovac, you've made reference to places of -- let's say of

13 particular danger. Could you please indicate to their Your Honours who I

14 trust are seeing this on their screens, could you point to the map and let

15 us know where by September 1992 you may have placed some of these

16 barricades. In other words, which were those vulnerable places?

17 A. I'll focus on the Novi Grad municipality, which is this.

18 Q. Sorry, in so doing, Mr. Kovac, I understand that some of the

19 street names will have changed in Sarajevo. There were names at the

20 beginning of the war which were not the same at the end or subsequently.

21 Could you, if there is a place where there has been a name change, could

22 you give us both the old and the new name please, and then perhaps just

23 stick with the new name if you could refer to that.

24 A. As we are speaking about these streets, I should just like to say

25 that they are some of the local communities, and it's easier to pinpoint

Page 874

1 which places they were. This was particularly vulnerable and open to

2 sniping, that is to say the area of Alipasino Polje. There were apartment

3 houses in Alipasino Polje called the B-phase from the Nedzarici region.

4 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Kovac, you just said from the Nedzarici region.

5 What do you mean by that reference? What was coming from the Nedzarici

6 region?

7 A. Well, several types of -- how shall I put it? Bullets of

8 different calibres, whether they were grenades or anti-aircraft guns,

9 machine-guns, mortar grenades and shells, and ammunition, or rather

10 bullets from sniper weapons.

11 Q. Thank you. There's just one thing I would ask you quickly at this

12 point. You used the expression that translates as a grenade. That can

13 have different meanings to different people. What do you mean by when you

14 use the word the "grenade" what kind of ammunition are you talking about?

15 A. Well, they are high-calibre ammunition which is used from -- fired

16 from weapons, from guns, mortars, artillery weapons, multi-barrel rocket

17 launchers and so on and so forth.

18 Q. Thank you for clarifying about that. Yes, please go on Mr. Kovac,

19 about the location you are talking about.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Excuse me, Mr. Kovac, would you like to

21 indicate where is the Nedzarici region?

22 A. That's the area here. That's the area, and they shot in the

23 direction of these buildings over here. Furthermore, there was shooting

24 from --


Page 875

1 Q. Mr. Kovac, yes. So from whereabouts did you take protective

2 measures for that area of Alipasino Polje?

3 A. Here, if you can see this area here, the space between the

4 buildings, that's where we had to put these protective screens up. In

5 Vojnicko Polje, this is now called Vojnicko Polje -- this is now called

6 the district of Sarajevsko Polje.

7 Q. What did you make the screens out of at that time?

8 A. They were for the most part made of spare old car -- spare parts

9 for cars and parts of cars. And also together with some companies that

10 were functions during the war who had -- they had some concrete blocks, so

11 we used spare car parts and concrete blocks. And the civil engineering

12 firm called Vranica, it had these concrete blocks at the Stup locality.

13 The company had some concrete walls, prefab concrete walls, so we used

14 those. And later on, in cooperation with the town authorities and

15 municipal authorities, we asked them for their assistance in erecting

16 these concrete blocks and walls in the vulnerable areas.

17 Q. Can you tell us that when you erected such a barricade, either

18 between buildings or across a street, did that mean there was no further

19 access or was there still a gab left for access to the street or between

20 the buildings?

21 A. Well, we placed those barricades precisely to enable the people to

22 be able to pass between the buildings and to provide shelter and screen

23 off the area from where the shooting was coming, the bullets that were a

24 threat to the people.

25 Q. So when you approached the task of providing any barricade

Page 876












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Page 877

1 anywhere, what was the first estimation you had to make before you could

2 put the barricade in place?

3 A. We first assessed the danger on the basis of the number of

4 casualties, the people who had been killed at those spots. We saw how

5 many of them there were. And generally, on the frequency of shooting as

6 being a threat to the population moving around those areas. So it was on

7 the basis of those indices that we decided to erect those barricades with

8 the assistance of the people who took part and helped us.

9 Q. Can you now, sir, return to the map, if you would and indicate any

10 other significant places within your own municipality where you erected

11 such barricades and as protection from which directions of fire?

12 A. We can focus on the Dobrinja settlement now, and Dobrinja is also

13 part of the Novi Grad municipality. It is a characteristic area, a

14 specific one in fact which at the start of the war had a very rough time

15 because for 60 days, the whole district was cut off and exposed to

16 constant shelling and the onslaught and impact of shells, and also other

17 types of attack from other weapons and artillery weapons. The district

18 was attacked from the area of Nedzarici. Here you have it. It's this

19 area over here. That's where the Dobrinja settlement was attacked, and we

20 as the Civil Defence in cooperation with other subjects tried and

21 succeeded in making a channel to link up this part of the municipality

22 with this other region here. And this is approximately where the trench

23 was, trench, corridor. And it enabled people to pass -- to move around

24 from this part of the municipality and go into that other part of the

25 municipality, because this area was open to sniper fire continuously.

Page 878

1 Also, the district called Svrakino Selo was exposed to sniper

2 fire. Svrakino Selo, as well as the district of Otoka. In addition to

3 other weapons, ammunition fired from sniper rifles targeted these areas

4 here.

5 Q. What sort of barricades and things did you erect in those areas,

6 for protection for civilians?

7 A. We put broken-down vehicles there and some other protective

8 material which provided some sort of protection enabling people to be able

9 to pass through the danger zone. We also put up some visual screens in

10 some areas.

11 Q. What was the purpose of what you've referred to as visual

12 screens? What were they designed to do?

13 A. Simply people were a bit safer passing through those danger zones

14 because the people who were targeting them couldn't see them, and in that

15 sense, they were protected, so they couldn't be seen when they were moving

16 along those routes and along those areas.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. BLAXILL: May we just have a moment to confer, Your Honours,

19 because looking at the map we might have something a little clearer to

20 offer on the ELMO.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, Mr. Blaxill.

22 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honours. I'm obliged to my learned friend

23 for this. As we look at the small map, and especially with the size of

24 the pointer, it is actually, I think, somewhat confusing to delineate

25 quite as clearly as we would like, and it will, I think, lead to a

Page 879

1 transcript problem that we would not have things quite so specifically

2 cross-referenced to the map. If we may turn and use the black and white

3 enlargement map on the ELMO itself, then I think there will be actual

4 names and things that will be more visible and more legible for Your

5 Honours to see, and I can very quickly recap the various names and

6 locations that I think will help to put this in a bit more

7 clear context. And I'm sorry we perhaps didn't adopt that in the first

8 place.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think there's no opposition from the Defence to use

10 the other map. You have got a copy, or you'll have a copy and

11 inspect it?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We haven't any map. We can't

13 see any map. And if we enlarge them, we will have a problem with scale.

14 I think this is an important point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: About the scale, I think we can work that out

16 properly. You asked for the scale of this map. It has been reduced

17 already, so I think the original size of the map might be that that's on

18 the board at this moment.

19 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I can explain the actual manufacture

20 process, that in essence, the small, coloured map is a reduction, the

21 black and white map is an enlargement, and it's all based upon the one map

22 that you see on the stand.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So the scale is the same?

24 MR. BLAXILL: In fact, I think it's one for one with the large

25 map. It's a straight copy. Yes, the scale is the same.

Page 880

1 Q. Mr. Kovac, I apologise, but the map we're using is not very

2 clear, so we would ask you to refer to a clearer, larger map. I wonder if

3 first, sir, you could point to any flag on that map that indicates the

4 area of Novi Grad. Does the name appear on the map? If so, could you

5 point to it.

6 A. The municipality of Novi Grad is -- this is Nedzarici here.

7 Q. Hold a second. Could you point again to Nedzarici? It's that

8 area there.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Can you tell me, sir, whether there was a building known as the

11 School for the Blind in Nedzarici?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you then point out, please, the --

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Blaxill, could we ask the witness to use a

15 pen and to put a letter or something to indicate the place?

16 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed, Your Honour, we can do that.

17 Q. Mr. Kovac, could you be so kind -- firstly, what colour pen do we

18 have there? I'm thinking in terms of the permanence of this and the

19 visibility of it, for reference. Sometimes markers and things are

20 indistinct.

21 MR. BLAXILL: I think a red one is a better option for future use,

22 Your Honours.

23 Mr. Usher -- oh, you have one. Thank you.

24 A. So this is the Nedzarici neighbourhood.

25 Q. Yes. Could you -- sorry. I'm not getting the picture on my

Page 881

1 screen yet. Could you just mark that and perhaps put the letter "A" near

2 the name of "Nedzarici" on the map.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And could you just briefly indicate now the overall area of

5 Nedzarici with the point of the pen, and draw it. Just draw a line in,

6 what is Nedzarici, as area "A."

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, could you, using the letter "B," pinpoint Alipasino

9 Polje that you referred to. And again, draw a line around that area, and

10 that will be area "B." And could you draw the line around it as to what

11 that area is.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And can you indicate on there -- just point out the name of Novi

14 Grad, if that appears in the map.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Now, could you mark on the map roughly the area where you placed

17 the barricades in Alipasino Polje. Perhaps do a wavy line.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And could you put on an arrow just to show the direction that you

20 estimated was the place the -- the direction from which the sniping was

21 coming.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Could you tell us where on this map, if you can see it, the school

24 for the blind was, and could you perhaps mark it "SB." Put a cross.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 882

1 Q. Right. Now moving to Dobrinja, if you would.

2 MR. BLAXILL: Could the map be moved a little to accommodate

3 Dobrinja?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will

5 allow me.


7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I see on this map that there

8 are, twice at least, the word "Novi Grad" appears, and that the witness

9 only pointed to one. This may have its importance. This may be

10 important.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You will address that later on, because that's one

12 of the things that came into my mind as well. Thank you very much. It

13 will be addressed later on.

14 MR. BLAXILL: I will obviously ask a question about it.

15 Q. Now, just one thing, Mr. Kovac. Before you do anything with

16 Dobrinja, can I just cross-check the initials that were placed on the

17 school for the blind. I mentioned "S" for Sierra, "B" for Bravo. I'm not

18 sure if those were the exact initials written on.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Fine. Thank you, sir. Now, turning to Dobrinja, can

21 you again indicate where that area lines and draw a line around it and put

22 the letter "C."

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. And again with some wavy lines, can you just indicate some, if not

25 all, of the areas where you erected barricades there.

Page 883












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Page 884

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Again, would you put an arrow on to again indicate the direction

3 of fire, as you would estimate it, that you were providing protection

4 from.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Mr. Kovac, just above where your hand was a moment ago, I see the

7 letters "Novi Grad" again on the map. What is the significance of the

8 difference between the Novi Grad you already marked and that entrance of

9 Novi Grad you are pointing to now?

10 A. I don't understand quite why we see Novi Grad here. This is the

11 territory of the municipality of Novi Grad. I think this is the Mojmilo

12 hill here. And I think it would be better if we had the word "Mojmilo"

13 written here, rather than Novi Grad.

14 Q. Is Mojmilo hill within the municipality of Novi Grad? Is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay, well where you say it is Mojmilo hill, would you be so kind

18 as to write in that name for us?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you. Now, were there any other areas within your

21 municipality that you had responsibility for barricades, Mr. Kovac?

22 A. We have to clear something up. When talking about the competence

23 with respect to barricades, when assessing the need to put up barricades,

24 in addition to the Civil Defence, representatives of the police

25 administrations also participated, that is, of the public security

Page 885

1 stations in the municipalities who were also responsible for the security

2 of citizens so that a decision to erect a barricade was made at a joint

3 level.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Kovac, could I turn your mind to the rest of

5 Sarajevo that was outside your particular district, but looking at the

6 rest of the city, can you point out to us some of the significant spots

7 which were deemed requiring barricades against sniping, particular hazards

8 to the civilians. Can you go through the city and just indicate a few of

9 the spots on the map, please.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. May I suggest for ease of reference that each time you mention

12 somewhere, we will number it. So we can go 1, 2, 3, and then you can

13 mention the name and we will be able to cross-refer later. Thank you.

14 A. I apologise. [Marks]

15 Q. What place is that you have marked as number 1, Mr. Kovac? You'll

16 have to look around to the microphone, I'm afraid.

17 A. I think I have marked a place next to the school of economics.

18 It's a road leading from Grbavica district to Pofolici. This was a

19 dangerous spot for passer-by, either vehicles or civilians passing through

20 that part of town.

21 Q. From which direction did that danger come from for people passing

22 up and down that piece of road? And perhaps put an arrow pointing to the

23 number 1 from whichever direction.

24 A. It came from the area of Grbavica.

25 Q. Could you indicate any other particular spots in the centre of

Page 886

1 town that were particularly dangerous?

2 A. I could list the places. There is the Marijin Dvor point which

3 was under sniper fire from Trebevic, or rather the area of Debelo Brdo.

4 Q. Again, could you mark that number 2, and again put the arrow in

5 for direction.

6 A. I am sorry, but I find it a bit hard to find my way on this map.

7 But I think when I'm marking this, I am referring to Marijin Dvor

8 Q. Mr. Kovac, if you are unsure, because of the map, please don't

9 mark something if you're not sure of it.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Likewise, can you tell us any more such places, but only do so if

12 you're sure, with your marking. You needn't...

13 A. Yes, I can mention Skenderija, also the national theatre.

14 Q. You don't have to point out a specific spot, but can you just

15 generally give an indication which area is Skenderija. Just point to the

16 map if you would.

17 A. Skenderija is situated about 300 metres from Marijin Dvor towards

18 Bas Carsija along the Miljacka river valley. And that spot, too, was

19 exposed to shelling.

20 Q. And during the course of 1993, were there front lines near that

21 position that you've just been describing?

22 A. You mean at Skenderija?

23 Q. You've mentioned Grbavica and Skenderija and. Were there front

24 lines in the near vicinity of those places?

25 A. Yes.

Page 887

1 Q. Can you mark maybe roughly with a pen where you believe those

2 lines were.

3 A. Roughly here.

4 Q. Thank you very much. And again, you've made reference to an area

5 called Bas Carsija. Whereabouts in the city is Bas Carsija?

6 A. Bas Carsija is in the old part of the city of Sarajevo. It is

7 well known for its cultural and historical monuments dating back to the

8 times of Turkish rule already, and later from the times of

9 Austro-Hungarian rule times in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's the old part of

10 the city and the city of Sarajevo -- or rather the people of Sarajevo

11 really do have a lot of love for Bas Carsija and admiration. They

12 consider it to be a cultural centre.

13 Q. Would you be so kind to outline the area of Bas Carsija with your

14 pen, and put the letter -- I think we've reached D now, D for Delta.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Now, Mr. Kovac, we've looked very much along so far the South side

17 of the city and along the river. What about north of the area we're

18 looking at now? Were there any particular sniper problems to the north

19 side of the city looking at the top of this map?

20 A. Yes, there were problems there, too.

21 Q. Could you please point out any particular areas or locations where

22 you recall there being particular sniper problems which you addressed with

23 barricades?

24 A. You mean in the old part of the city?

25 Q. In the old part of the city, Bas Carsija, or north of Bas Carsija,

Page 888

1 yes, and up the centre of the city.

2 A. It was very dangerous, close to the Vijecnica building, the old

3 assembly building. But since the layout of the land there is such, it was

4 possible to successfully target any object in the area of Bas Carsija from

5 the surrounding hills and especially from Trebevic Mountain.

6 Q. Can you just point out the direction on that map, the direction

7 towards Trebevic Mountain, or indeed identify the mountain if it appears

8 on the map.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Could you write in the word "Trebevic" on the part of the area

11 that you say is Trebevic Mountain.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 Okay, if we can return, please, could you move the map back down

15 the board again, so down the ELMO, and -- no, stop. Could we see the

16 north side. Could you pull it down so that we see north of the river,

17 please?

18 Mr. Kovac, were there any sniper positions of a particular hazard

19 above the -- where we see the river here to the north on this map? And

20 can you name any such positions? Perhaps I can assist you. Are you

21 familiar with the name Sedrenik as an area?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the name Spicasta Stijena?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you indicate to us, please, where that may be.

Page 889

1 A. This is this area here.

2 Q. Did that area acquire any reputation in the course of the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was it known for?

5 A. Because from that position, there was continuous use of sniper

6 rifles that were shooting on Sedrenik, the broader area of Sedrenik, and

7 the district below it.

8 Q. Could you perhaps put a ring around the area you've referred to

9 as Sedrinik, and put the letter "S" for Sierra in there, please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Thank you. Were there any other such spots like as Spicasta

12 Stijena to the north side of the city?

13 A. I'm afraid I couldn't tell you that there were, with any

14 precision. I couldn't tell you the exact spots, but there were some. And

15 surely someone else who has greater expertise about these things will be

16 able to tell you much more.

17 Q. I thank you for that, Mr. Kovac. There's just one building.

18 We've heard reference to a place called the Tito barracks. Could you

19 please indicate to the Chamber where the Tito barracks is on that map.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And could you mark that location that you've circled with "T" for

22 Tango, "B" for Bravo.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Kovac. I won't be referring

25 again to the map. Thank you.

Page 890

1 MR. BLAXILL: We had mentioned earlier, Your Honours, the

2 intention perhaps to simply mark for identification certain things. But a

3 lot of information directly relevant to the testimony has now gone into

4 that map, so I wonder if we could in fact tender it in evidence as a

5 Prosecution exhibit.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited, then, to tender both maps, first a

7 blank map and a second to the map with the initials of the witness on it.

8 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed. That goes without saying, Your Honour.

9 It's my mistake. I meant both of our maps, obviously, to go in.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You're tendering it now? You're not going to use it

11 any more?

12 MR. BLAXILL: No, I do not propose referring to it in the course

13 of any subsequent witness testimony. I wondered if it might be marked as

14 relevant to the testimony of Mr. Kovac, of course, because at some later

15 date, other witnesses may use other maps, and it may be confusing. So

16 perhaps it at least could be marked not only as a Prosecution exhibit, but

17 as one relating to the evidence of Mr. Kovac.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Registry will give it a number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I have it as the blank map will be 3644 and the

20 map marked by the witness will be 3644.MK.

21 MR. BLAXILL: And Your Honours --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. Since I hear no objections from the

23 Defence, they will be admitted into evidence, both -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but I

25 had expected you to give me the floor to say a few words as to the

Page 891












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13 English transcripts.













Page 892

1 authenticity of these maps.

2 First, the Defence questions and challenges the authenticity of

3 the maps. During the examination of the witness today and his testimony,

4 we can note that the relevant places have not been indicated, places which

5 are vital in order to be able to assess the testimony of this witness.

6 I am sure you noted that during his testimony, the witness himself

7 said that Mojmilo hill was not inscribed on the map. This Defence counsel

8 knows this area very well, and with a map of this kind, may I say that

9 we're not going to get a true picture of how things stood, which brings

10 into question the witness's very testimony, because the witness said where

11 Novi Grad is is where Mojmilo hill is. That's true, but it hasn't been

12 indicated, nor is there the height, the elevation which is -- it is

13 dominant in relation to Dobrinja as it is to Alipasino Polje and

14 Nedzarici. And this hill is highly relevant because throughout the

15 duration of the conflict in Sarajevo - and this was borne out by the

16 witness's testimony yesterday - this was important because these were the

17 positions of the BH army. So this map does not give us a realistic

18 picture and image of Sarajevo, and it does not contain some very relevant

19 spots. Therefore we object to having these two maps in evidence. This

20 other map, the coloured one, also says "Novi Grad," so the Defence is

21 opposed to having these two maps admitted into evidence.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MR. BLAXILL: May I respond for a moment, Your Honour? Your

24 Honour, may I have a moment to just answer a couple of the points that my

25 learned friend just made?

Page 893

1 JUDGE ORIE: Of course.

2 MR. BLAXILL: I'll be very brief.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.

4 MR. BLAXILL: The first thing, Your Honour, is this, that we've

5 just had a look at the black-and-white photocopy map, and it appears to

6 our eyes that there are contour lines on there with figures. And,

7 therefore, I believe if it is an issue at some point, the elevation can be

8 established.

9 However, I think the major point I have is that it is clearly a

10 matter for my learned friend that in the course of cross-examination, she

11 of course can challenge any point as to the map or as to - which I believe

12 to be the thrust of her argument - repercussions made in evidence by the

13 witness as to parts of that map. So I don't believe that that in way

14 taints the map as being tenderable in evidence, as forming part of the

15 evidence of this witness. It can obviously be challenged in

16 cross-examination and by counter-maps that my learned friend may adduce in

17 the future to argue points regarding such matters.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, would you like to respond to

19 these remarks of Mr. Blaxill?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That will lead

21 us to a situation in which this Trial Chamber will have so many maps in

22 front of it that they won't -- we won't be able to find our way. If the

23 Defence team is to give in the same maps, then this will lead to a

24 muddle. I don't know why my colleagues from the Prosecution did not

25 supply you with authentic maps.

Page 894

1 And I should like to mention in particular that the witness

2 himself says that he finds it hard to find his way and cannot mark the

3 spots where my learned colleague has asked him to -- he says Spicasta --

4 he keeps referring to a place called Spicasta Stijena, whereas it can't be

5 found on the map. I know what my colleague is thinking of, but you can't

6 find it on the map. So if the Defence team brings its own maps before the

7 Court, this will lead to a mix-up, and there's no need for that because

8 authentic maps do exist.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The decision is that the map will be admitted in

10 evidence, but in order to avoid any misunderstanding, this does, of

11 course, does not mean that every single word that's on that map or even

12 the content of that map is as from now not challengeable any more.

13 Of course the Defence will have an opportunity to -- in

14 cross-examination or by producing other maps to make whatever comments or

15 challenge whatever is on this map. But at this moment it is used by the

16 witness, he has marked several spots on the map, so it will be admitted

17 into evidence.

18 I'm quite glad that Defence counsel is worried about the number of

19 maps this Chamber will have to review when deliberating later on. Of

20 course, I would be grateful if both parties could agree upon maps that are

21 reliable as soon as possible so that we limit the number of maps we have

22 to discuss.

23 But the map is -- both maps are now admitted into evidence and get

24 a P number, both of them.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The blank map will be P3644. The map marked by

Page 895

1 the witness will be P3644.MK.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your indulgence,

3 may I just mention that we agreed yesterday that all the exhibits that the

4 Prosecution intends to tender into evidence during the testimony, that he

5 is duty-bound to supply the Defence with copies. I don't see why my

6 colleagues, if they knew that they would be introducing maps through this

7 witness, why they failed to inform us and hand over those maps to us on

8 time. And as this matter was raised yesterday, my colleagues told me that

9 they would introduce exhibits only through one witness. And at your own

10 proposal, Your Honour, the Prosecution handed over the exhibits for a

11 witness to be heard tomorrow. I am now taken by surprise with these maps

12 because this is the first time that I am seeing them.

13 Perhaps in this heap of material that we did receive those maps

14 exist somewhere. But my colleagues ought to have given me an indication

15 of the fact that they would be using them so that we could prepare for

16 cross-examination on time. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber is aware that you have been confronted

18 only recently with this map. And if this would cause a specific problem,

19 the Chamber will -- is willing to hear any objection that comes from being

20 confronted with the map only recently, which is of course something

21 different from the testimony of the witness. It might be that this

22 Chamber, and perhaps the Prosecution, noticed this was a bit unhappy with

23 the situation. A lot of the areas of the city were mentioned recently,

24 and we were not able to follow this on the map. That might explain why a

25 map has come up today.

Page 896

1 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.

2 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour. I can confirm that. There

3 was no intention to surprise my learned friend. We just thought in the

4 course of the testimony and with that which was to come, it might have

5 been some help to start acquainting ourselves visually with the city as a

6 layout. That's all.

7 Q. Mr. Kovac, did the erection of barricades against particularly

8 sniper bullets continue throughout 1993 and into the early part of 1994?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Generally speaking, when you had put up or someone or collaborated

11 in putting up these physical protections against snipers, what was the

12 result in terms of human casualties at the location in question?

13 A. Well, there was greater safety which meant that the number of

14 casualties was much less, and we felt that the erection of these

15 barricades was an effective way of dealing with the situation and

16 protecting the population at certain points in town, which were vulnerable

17 and exposed.

18 Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Kovac, did at any of these locations, did

19 the amount of sniping actually stop or reduce or stop as a result of

20 barricades?

21 A. Well, it was lessened. There was less sniping in those

22 localities. But what happened then was that it would be stepped up in

23 other locations so that we were forced to organise the erection of

24 barricades in these other localities as well.

25 Q. When you refer to other localities, do you mean the just another

Page 897

1 established sniper area would be more intense or did they in fact -- did

2 you find that new areas became new areas of sniper fire?

3 A. Yes, they became targets.

4 Q. Was there any kind of pattern or particular times when there would

5 be or would not be sniping that you noticed --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I hope you don't mind if I interrupt

7 you. You feel that at this moment you are going from localities to

8 timing, which are different areas. And looking at the clock, I would like

9 to have a break at quarter to 4.00.

10 MR. BLAXILL: Perfect.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's fine. I think the order, we changed the

12 order a bit. That means that I will ask the usher to guide the witness

13 out of the courtroom, and then the accused will leave the courtroom, and

14 then finally we will have the break.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We will then resume at quarter past 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, General Galic.

19 Mr. Ierace, I see you're standing up instead of Mr. Blaxill.

20 Could you explain why?

21 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President. I wish to raise an issue

22 in the interests of saving time. Mr. President, you may have noticed that

23 some of the material which has so far been covered by this witness

24 slightly duplicates evidence given by the previous witness. May I make a

25 proposal which may enable us to avoid that in the future. The proposal is

Page 898












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Page 899

1 that where a witness called by the Prosecution gives evidence or is in a

2 position to give evidence which has already been covered by a previous

3 witness, that we indicate as much to the Trial Chamber and invite the

4 Defence to state whether there is any issue with the evidence which has so

5 far been given. If there is no issue, then we can avoid duplication and

6 take the witness who is in the box at the time straight to fresh

7 material. If there is an issue, then we can adduce from the witness who

8 is presently giving testimony evidence covering the same area. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: This is a proposal. I can imagine that the Defence

11 has to think this over first before responding to it. It might be

12 time-saving, and perhaps you might some have practical problems with it or

13 you might have some theoretical problems with it or whatever kind. If

14 these are just practical problems, I suggest that you exchange views

15 perhaps before tomorrow in the afternoon. If there's any problem left I

16 would like to hear it perhaps at quarter past 2.00 tomorrow. So again,

17 probably think over the suggestion. I can imagine that one of the

18 problems might be to identify exactly those areas where there is no issue,

19 where there is no problem, I can imagine that you would use prior

20 statements of witnesses that are exchanged between the parties, so these

21 practical problems, I would rather whenever possible and see whether you

22 can come to a conclusion.

23 If not, we'll hear that tomorrow in the afternoon and we'll see

24 what would be wise to do. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 900

1 Indeed we had discussed a moment ago with our colleagues from the

2 Prosecution, we have seen today with this witness that he was not capable

3 to localise certain spots in the city, and this could happen if one were

4 to keep this or that argument could be also against the Prosecution. And

5 there are risks of this being rather tricky, but we are going to discuss

6 and you will have an answer at the requested time. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll wait for the answer, then. If there's no

8 other issue to be discussed at this moment, I would like to ask Mr. Usher

9 to bring in the witness, and then Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed with the

10 examination-in-chief.

11 MR. BLAXILL: Obliged, Mr. President, Your Honours.

12 Q. Mr. Kovac, we were talking a moment ago about - just before the

13 break, that is - about the timing of sniping during the day. Was there

14 any kind of pattern that developed that you saw during 1993 of when there

15 would be greater or lesser sniping in various parts of the city?

16 A. What one could notice is the following --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence

18 objects. The Defence objects to that question by my learned colleague

19 because he's asking the witness whether a pattern existed. The witness

20 has made no mention of any kind of pattern in his testimony so far, nor

21 did he speak about the sniping or the incidents. All he said was that

22 sniping did go on, so I object to the word "pattern"

23 [Trial Chamber confers].

24 MR. BLAXILL: I'll happily rephrase, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, go ahead, Mr. Blaxill. You want to

Page 901

1 respond -- I hope you don't mind now and then if we can come to a very

2 quick conclusion without violating the --

3 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, if there's a word I've used at this

4 stage that is offensive to my learned friends, I'm happy to rephrase the

5 questions. It may take a couple or three questions rather than a simple

6 one, but I'm happy to do that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Even without a decision, go -- rephrase the

8 question.


10 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you indicate to us in what manner the sniping was

11 conducted on the average day?

12 A. Well, as far as shooting of that kind was concerned, it usually

13 occurred during the period when there was no shelling. So when there was

14 a lull in the shelling, the use of weapons such as sniper rifles were

15 used, and automatic rifles and so on.

16 Q. Did the weather have any effect on the sniping?

17 A. Well, they usually took place during the day, although there was

18 shooting at night, too.

19 Q. And what about the weather conditions? Did they affect the

20 sniping?

21 A. Of course, if it was more foggy, if the weather was foggy or

22 misty, then the shooting was less intense.

23 Q. And was it the experience that people were only shot on the street

24 where you have said many were, or were there other places that people fell

25 prey to sniper fire?

Page 902

1 A. In addition to shooting in the streets, the snipers also targeted

2 apartments, places where the apartments were facing the line of fire.

3 That means the targets were the windows of the buildings.

4 Q. Now, -- I do apologise. Mr. Kovac, can I ask you, what was the

5 feeling of people who were subjected to the shelling and sniping? What

6 sort of emotions were you aware of in yourself and other people you knew

7 in the city who were living through this shelling and sniping in 1992,

8 1993, and early 1994?

9 A. It left a trace. There was a great deal of fear in the

10 population, and quite certainly, that fear grew as the days went by

11 because there was a great deal of uncertainty. People were insecure.

12 Many people told me that they weren't sure when they would stay at home in

13 their apartments that they'd wake up alive the next day. It was a great

14 psychological burden to bear, with children especially and with the

15 elderly and people especially -- people who were sick and ailing. They

16 displayed this fear in different ways.

17 Q. And can you explain to us some of the ways that you observed that

18 the people showed their fear?

19 A. Well, some people quite simply roamed the streets. They would go

20 out into the streets, leave the buildings, regardless of whether it was

21 safe or not to walk around. And there were cases where people quite

22 simply went outside even under fire. They would talk to themselves.

23 That's the way they showed this. Those were -- and you could see that

24 something was wrong with them, that they had become a bit unstable. But

25 generally speaking, the population felt fear, and they were afraid.

Page 903

1 Q. And can you tell us of any development of these sorts of feelings

2 as time progressed? Was there any difference in the way people felt from

3 the early part, let us say winter, 1992, 1993, to how they felt later in

4 the summer of 1993 or the winter of 1993, 1994? How were their emotions

5 continuing to be affected?

6 A. Well, as a layman with regard to any kind of medical assessment, I

7 have to say that people were somehow losing touch. They were losing

8 psychological stability. They became phobic. They became claustrophobic.

9 And these effects are felt to this day by people who lived in the city.

10 Most people who are saying they are suffering from claustrophobia fear

11 from leaving closed -- leaving certain spaces or staying in a closed

12 space, and I personally can say that I know how it feels.

13 Q. And did people have any particular emotions that related

14 exclusively to the sniping or any aspect of the sniping, as opposed to

15 just the dangers from either shelling or sniping?

16 A. Well, it is very hard to draw a distinguishing line because any

17 kind of fire disturbed people and provoked traumas. What I can say is

18 that the children were already talking about snipers, and they knew what

19 snipers were and what shells were. Simply, all this created a war-like

20 atmosphere because the shells were there right next to us. We were living

21 with them, but we never grew accustomed to them. And in addition to

22 physically killing people -- and not only shells but all the other weapons

23 and munitions that we used. So in addition to physical destruction, in my

24 view, drastically more disorders were provoked on -- with respect to the

25 mental state of the inhabitants.

Page 904

1 Q. And what were your personal emotions, say, towards the sniping, in

2 terms of whom you perceived to be doing it? How did you feel about

3 snipers as people doing what they were doing?

4 A. During the war, I had occasion to watch a TV programme. When a

5 child was wounded by a sniper bullet, the father of that child, when he

6 came to the hospital to see his little daughter, he stated publicly, "I

7 would like to see that man who, when selecting his targets and to create

8 some kind of psychological pressure, chose my child, to hit her." So that

9 would be my answer as to how I personally thought about those men who were

10 targeting that kind of weapon on civilians.

11 Q. And have you noticed -- in particular you've made some reference

12 to children. Have you noticed any particular behaviour these days as a

13 result of the children's experiences of shelling and sniping during the

14 war?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you -- firstly then, I will ask you, were your own family and

17 your own children with you in Sarajevo during the war?

18 A. For a period of time, yes.

19 Q. How long did your family stay with you in Sarajevo during the war?

20 A. For two years.

21 Q. Have you noticed any effects on your own children?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What sort of effects have they suffered or have they shown - I'm

24 sorry - have they shown?

25 A. I have to say that the children were very small when the war

Page 905

1 started, and there is no doubt that shelling was a new phenomenon in their

2 lives, and they realised that it was something bad. But they were nine

3 months old, little girls. Later, they quickly realised that it was

4 dangerous; and for a time, they never left the shelter.

5 Q. Was there a time that -- any time that your children spent or your

6 wife and children spent out of Sarajevo during the conflict?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us what period your family were actually away from

9 the city during the conflict?

10 A. The family was away from the end of May 1992 until the middle or

11 rather the beginning of the second half of 1994.

12 Q. So from your observation perhaps of your own children and others,

13 can you say anything about their behaviour patterns that you have noticed?

14 A. There is no doubt that the children who stayed in Sarajevo

15 throughout had a more traumatic experience. Today, those children mostly

16 have problems of psychological stability. They are very nervous, they are

17 impatient and are prone to using various medicines. And they have health

18 problems.

19 Q. I'll not be very long, Mr. Kovac. There's a couple of other

20 questions I would like to ask you. One is, have you ever had a personal

21 experience with sniping? Have you ever been close to it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When was that?

24 A. It was in 1992, in the winter of 1992.

25 Q. Was that before or after September?

Page 906












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Page 907

1 A. After September.

2 Q. And what was that experience?

3 A. Well, a bullet whizzed right by my ear at the location of

4 Alipasino Polje.

5 Q. What were your feelings when that happened?

6 A. Believe me, I felt as if I had been reborn after that, after that

7 moment.

8 Q. Can you explain that a little bit more detail for us.

9 A. It is hard to explain a situation when you realised you could have

10 been dead, and it was just a couple of centimetres that separated you from

11 death. The bullet literally flew by my ear, and I heard the sound of it.

12 My feelings after that were -- how shall I put it? I was frightened, I

13 felt upset. The impression was an extremely negative one, and it was a

14 negative experience and very dangerous experience.

15 Q. I'd like to just move on to some other matters now, three very

16 brief topics, Mr. Kovac. Firstly, did your Civil Defence staff suffer

17 casualties during the work they did between the end of 1992 and 1994?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall how many casualties they suffered? Could you tell

20 us.

21 A. There were about 200 members of the Civil Defence service that

22 were killed, 200.

23 Q. You made reference earlier, sir, to the emblem worn on the uniform

24 of the Civil Defence as being an international insignia. Was your Civil

25 Defence in some way linked to an international organisation? If so, could

Page 908

1 you tell us who or what?

2 A. We cooperated with the humanitarian organisations, with the Red

3 Cross, with the representatives of the UNPROFOR, the United Nations

4 forces. I've already mentioned our cooperation with the French Battalion

5 that was stationed at the Sarajevo airport. We cooperated very well.

6 They came to visit us regularly, and there were no problems at all in that

7 respect. In any event, Civil Defence collaborated with all humanitarian

8 organisations that were present in the Novi Grad municipality.

9 Q. Fine. But was the Civil Defence, not just in Novi Grad, but in

10 the city or the country, was that linked to other civil defence-type

11 organisations in other countries or places?

12 A. Not in that period? There was a certain degree of cooperation,

13 but any significant cooperation or assistance from the international Civil

14 Defence or others was lacking, at least as far as I was aware. But there

15 must have been higher levels of the Civil Defence, such as the republic

16 Civil Defence staff which cooperated with international organisations and

17 institutions and associations of Civil Defence in other countries.

18 Q. Finally, I want to ask you just one thing, and that is, at some

19 time, did the barricades that had been erected to protect people, were

20 they taken down at some time?

21 A. After the Dayton peace agreement was signed, those barricades were

22 removed because that agreement provided guarantees that there would be no

23 more dangerous attacks on the inhabitants in town.

24 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see any of those barricades when

25 they were taken down yourself, to have a look at them?

Page 909

1 A. Yes, a certain number of them, yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us something about the condition in which you found

3 those barricades, let us say, on the one side where the civilians used to

4 move about, and on the other side facing the direction that you thought

5 they needed protection from? Can you tell us what was the condition of

6 the two sides of the barricade when they were taken down?

7 A. I can say that the side that was exposed to fire was damaged

8 whereas the other side facing the people walking by was clean if -- unless

9 an armoured bullet would pass through the barricade, then the damage could

10 be seen on both sides.

11 Q. Were you able to tell the nature and extent of the damage that you

12 viewed on those barricades, could you tell how that had happened from

13 looking at it?

14 A. This was due to fire being opened from weapons and artillery

15 pieces.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kovac.

17 MR. BLAXILL: Just bear with me if you would, Your Honours, for a

18 moment.

19 That now concludes my examination-in-chief of Mr. Kovac. I thank

20 you, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.

22 The Defence has now an opportunity for cross-examination of the

23 witness Kovac. Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

Page 910

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Yesterday, you started answering questions by my learned friend,

4 and you spoke about snipers. Before I ask you a couple of questions in

5 that area, I would like you to confirm for us whether on the 21st and the

6 29th of June, 1999, and on the 1st December 2000 and the 3rd of October,

7 2000, you had interviews with Tribunal investigators. The 21st and the

8 29th of June, you gave a statement that you signed. Is that correct?

9 A. Do I have to answer that question?

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think there's no objection as to the question and I

11 see no reason why you shouldn't answer that question, Mr. Witness --

12 Mr. Kovac.

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So on the 21st and the 29th of June, 1999 and on 3rd of October,

16 2000, you had a conversation with the investigators of the Tribunal?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And on the 1st of December, 2001, you had another conversation

19 with the Tribunal investigators?

20 A. I can't tell you exactly. I didn't make note of those dates, but

21 I think that is correct.

22 Q. Thank you. In the course of the examination-in-chief yesterday,

23 you told us that after basic training during your military service, you

24 were issued a sniper rifle. You described that rifle. So I have a couple

25 of questions about that.

Page 911

1 Are you sure that a sniper rifle is the kind of rifle that is

2 issued to a military policeman for performing his duties?

3 A. Not for all policemen. Just a certain number of them. It was not

4 a weapon issued to all policemen but only to some, a number of policemen

5 in the unit.

6 Q. What do you mean, a certain number of policemen was issued a

7 sniper rifle?

8 A. It means that in a platoon which numbered 30 men, two men were

9 snipers, that is, people who were trained to use a sniper rifle.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I please interrupt for one moment.

11 Mr. Kovac, in order to have your words properly translated, could

12 you please wait until the transcript stops moving before answering the

13 question, otherwise the interpreters can't do their work properly. Thank

14 you.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. If I understood what you said, throughout your military service,

17 you were issued with a sniper rifle.

18 A. For a period of time.

19 Q. What do you mean?

20 A. After I completed my training, I was issued another weapon.

21 Q. How long did that training last?

22 A. It lasted five months.

23 Q. And during that training, did you carry the sniper with you all

24 the time?

25 A. No.

Page 912

1 Q. So you had a sniper rifle only when you had exercises?

2 A. Yes, when we had target shooting and when we had some exercises.

3 Q. Was this a daily routine or as part of your training?

4 A. As part of my training.

5 Q. How frequently?

6 A. Well, it depended. Three or four times during the five-month

7 period.

8 Q. How many of the members of your unit went?

9 A. Our entire platoon went.

10 Q. Will you explain, please, what are the duties of a military

11 policeman?

12 A. The duties of a military policeman are roughly similar to those of

13 a civilian policeman. The military police had the authority that it used

14 in order to regulate life, the life of soldiers. If there would be any

15 excesses in peacetime and in wartime, it had special duties.

16 Q. What are those special duties in wartime?

17 A. The military police had some special assignments in the unit in

18 which it operated.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, if I may interrupt again. Would you place

20 look at the transcript and see that when it stops, that you give an

21 answer, because the -- it's very difficult for the interpreters to follow

22 it. It goes very quickly.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Would you agree with me, if I say that a military policeman

25 performs his duties by patrolling or in direct contact with other soldiers

Page 913












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13 English transcripts.













Page 914

1 when he controls or arrests a military personnel?

2 A. Depending on the behaviour of those military personnel.

3 Q. My question was about the role of the military policeman.

4 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.

5 Q. My question was for you to confirm whether the duties of a

6 military policeman are to carry out patrols together with other policemen

7 when he is on duty or to arrest the members of the military. Is that the

8 role of a military policeman?

9 A. I don't know whether you're referring to peacetime or wartime.

10 Q. I'm talking about the period when you were doing your military

11 service and when you said you had been issued a sniper rifle.

12 A. Yes, I will agree with you.

13 Q. Does that mean that as a military policeman, you had no weapon?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you were describing your sniper rifle on the basis of your

16 experience when you attended exercises.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please describe a carbine for us, as you mentioned it

19 yesterday?

20 A. When I was doing my military service, there were these carbines on

21 which these snipers were attached. And this was in 1983.

22 Q. When you were doing your duties and serving in the military, did

23 you carry a carbine with optical sights?

24 A. Only when we had exercises and target shooting.

25 Q. So that means only during the training itself or when there were

Page 915

1 exercises.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you were asked by my learned friend yesterday, you weren't

4 able to recall which factory manufactured the optic sights.

5 A. No, I couldn't.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that the only factory in the former

7 Yugoslavia which manufactured optic sights was the Zrak factory which is

8 located in Sarajevo?

9 A. I can't agree with you there because I simply didn't know that

10 fact.

11 Q. During your work, in view of the fact that you held responsible

12 posts, did you know that the Zrak factory existed in Sarajevo producing

13 optic sights?

14 A. Well, among other things, yes. That it produced optic sights and

15 some other equipment for the needs of the former army.

16 Q. And when was the factory located?

17 A. The factory was located in Buca Potok

18 Q. During the war was the factory operational?

19 A. Well, as far as I know. And it had its own security. It was a

20 closed system. I really didn't have any contact with it, nor did I have

21 any need to communicate with anybody from that sphere.

22 Q. You talked about some special ammunition, and the specialness is

23 that the bullet contained lead.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you stand by your claim that ammunition that contains lead

Page 916

1 represents a special type of ammunition, a special ammunition?

2 A. Well, it represents a form of ammunition which has a larger

3 destructive power.

4 Q. Can you tell us what the bullet of a semi-automatic rifle is made

5 of? As you did your military service, I'm sure you know that.

6 A. Well, that bullet, those rounds, are made of brass. I think it

7 was made of brass. It had a red tip from one material.

8 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that you progressed in your

9 professional life and that that was due to your knowledge and diligence?

10 A. Well, it was my knowledge of Civil Defence matters.

11 Q. Tell me, please, how many local communities did your municipality

12 comprise? And it was the Novi Grad municipality.

13 A. Twenty-three -- twenty-two, I think. During the war, I think the

14 number was twenty-two.

15 Q. You told us that those local communities had their Civil Defence

16 staffs?

17 A. Yes, the staffs of Civil Defence.

18 Q. All these staffs in the local community, did they work in

19 conformity with the plan of work of the municipal staff at whose head you

20 yourself were?

21 A. They had a schematic according to which they worked. There was a

22 plan of work, a set plan of work, and it was directed -- or rather, we in

23 the staff received this from higher up instances, higher up the echelon of

24 Civil Defence. They handed it down to us.

25 Q. So the plans of work were devised and drawn up by the higher

Page 917

1 echelons of the Civil Defence?

2 A. Yes, from the republican staff to the staffs in the local

3 communities.

4 Q. What period were these plans designed for?

5 A. Well, for a certain period of time, they were usually instructions

6 as to how staffs were organised. As far as the plan of work itself was

7 concerned, a concrete plan of work, those plans were directed by the city

8 and municipal staffs.

9 Q. I asked you for what period of time. Were they plans for a day, a

10 month, a year?

11 A. They were devised for a period of seven to ten days.

12 Q. Was there a separate plan for peacetime and another one for

13 wartime? Were there different plans?

14 A. It's the same plan, the same plan, that is.

15 Q. What plan existed in your staff before the outbreak of the

16 conflict?

17 A. Well, if you're thinking about the plans which were compiled by

18 the staffs, then that was the plan for the protection of the population,

19 the population protection plan from elemental disasters and protection

20 thereof.

21 Q. So it was a plan that was devised before the actual conflict broke

22 out?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And according to you who designed the plan?

25 A. The plan was compiled on the basis of instructions which were

Page 918

1 issued by the competent secretariats or rather the republican secretariat

2 for national defence.

3 Q. And were all activities in line with that plan? Did they evolve

4 according to the plan?

5 A. In most cases, yes.

6 Q. Were there situations where the plan underwent changes of any

7 kind?

8 A. The plan was adapted to the prevailing situation and

9 circumstances, and the gravity of the situation.

10 Q. As far as I am able to understand, the plan changed and those

11 changes and amendments were done in coordination with military structures;

12 Is that right?

13 A. No. They were done in accordance with Civil Defence structures at

14 a higher level.

15 Q. My question was who compiled the plan, and you said that the plan

16 was compiled in cooperation with the republican secretariat for national

17 defence?

18 A. That was before the war, within the frameworks of which it

19 existed. That is to say, the republican -- within the frameworks of which

20 the republican Civil Defence staff functioned.

21 Q. You told us yesterday that it was the job of the Civil Defence to

22 protect the public from danger of any kind.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And to give them the necessary care attention. And did that come

25 -- and that was under the secretariat of national defence and that is on

Page 919

1 page 840 of the transcript, line 4.

2 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

3 Q. Yesterday, asked by my learned friend you said that the job of the

4 Civil Defence was to protect the population from danger, to give them care

5 and attention, and that all this came under the competence of the national

6 defence secretariat. That was on page 840 of the transcript, line 4.

7 A. That is a mistaken, wrong interpretation.

8 Q. What is correct, then?

9 A. This cannot be linked to -- this is an area which speaks about the

10 competencies of Civil Defence. And it cannot be brought into direct link

11 with the defence ministry. In that context, we can discuss the

12 functioning of the civil protection system within the frameworks of the

13 defence ministry, and that is regulated by legal provisions that were in

14 force at the time.

15 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that Civil Defence was part of

16 the territorial defence system which had the task of protecting civilians

17 according to the concept of total national defence?

18 A. No. If you want an explanation -- if you want me to clarify this

19 point, I'll be happy to do so. According to the provisions that were in

20 force at the time the defence structure of a state is composed of, let me

21 repeat, the armed force, the armed forces -- the armed forces, Civil

22 Defence, the system of reporting and information, purpose-geared

23 production, and the organs of management. And when we talk about the

24 armed forces, then the armed forces are composed of the following: The

25 army --

Page 920

1 MR. BLAXILL: I'm sorry, could I interrupt. I do apologise to

2 Mr. Kovac and I apologise to my learned friend. We're have a little

3 trouble regarding the reference to page 840 of the transcript. We're

4 wondering if that is a correct reference. If my learned friend could

5 assist us with that, we would be very grateful and I apologise for the

6 interruption.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 840. I found the page, Your

8 Honour.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, this does

10 correspond according to the information we have to page 840. It is not

11 yet the corrected official transcript since we have to go very fast. It

12 is line 4, apparently. The end of line 3 to line 4 until the half of that

13 line. Perhaps as an aside, we could ask to hear again the tape and check

14 the translation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I would suggest that. I also had some difficulties

16 in tracing the exact spot that you are referring to. Perhaps you could --

17 instead of just mentioning the page and the line, read the lines you

18 intend to confront the witness with.

19 Do you have a French transcript?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's okay, Mr. President.

21 The transcript I have is in English. I will read it in English. Line in

22 question starts at the end of page 3 and says, "A" for answer, "the Defence

23 secretariat."

24 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid any misunderstanding, am I right

25 that it's the answer that starts with "Civil Defence in the former

Page 921












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13 English transcripts.













Page 922

1 Yugoslavia was formed with a view to protecting and rescuing the

2 population in jeopardy or needing care, and it came under the defence

3 secretariat," and then it continues with when talking about the

4 components. That's the spot you are referring to? Is that clear to the

5 Prosecution?

6 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, it is now. And I'm much obliged to Your Honour

7 and to my learned friends.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. My question was, can we conclude that Civil Defence was part of

11 the defence system?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that along with the territorial defence, the JNA, Civil

14 Defence represented a separate defence system under wartime conditions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, what did your staff comprise? When I say what, I mean which

17 areas in the Novo Sarajevo municipality, Novi Grad?

18 A. It was the area covered by 22 local communities.

19 Q. Yes, you've already told me that. But I wanted you to be more

20 precise with respect to the settlements and locations.

21 A. It was the Dobrinja district, then we had the following

22 settlements: In Dobrinja, for example, there were four Civil Defence

23 staffs, four or five, actually. I can't remember the exact number. But

24 those are facts and figures which have been forgotten because of the

25 passage of time. But I can say that Civil Defence was active in the areas

Page 923

1 of Dobrinja, Alipasino Polje, Vojnicko Polje of the day, the Svrakino Selo

2 settlement, Hrasno, Aneks. Then there were the following settlements:

3 Cengic Vila, Alipasin Most, Buljakov Potok, Buca Potok, Gornji Dolac.

4 That is a region. It was the former local community of Slobodan Vukovic.

5 Then we had the settlement of Sokolje, and Brijesce. Then there was

6 Brijesce Brdo, another one. That more or less -- those more or less are

7 the settlements. And 22 staffs were active in those settlements, Civil

8 Defence staffs.

9 Q. Did your staff incorporate parts of the municipality which was

10 Serb inhabited?

11 A. I'm not sure I understand your question.

12 Q. Your Civil Defence staff, did it incorporate areas in the

13 municipality where the majority population was Serbs?

14 A. You mean the Rajlovac settlement?

15 Q. I'm asking you about settlements with a predominantly Serb

16 population. You know who those settlements were in your municipality.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let me remind you. The Nedzarici settlement, for instance.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. To which municipality did it belong?

21 A. Before the war, the Novi Grad municipality.

22 Q. And what about during the war?

23 A. During the war, it was under the command of the forces of the

24 Bosnian Serbs.

25 Q. So you will agree with me that all these settlements, the ones you

Page 924

1 enumerated a moment ago, from Alipasino Polje to Brijesce Brdo, were under

2 the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You will also agree with me, therefore, that in Buca Potok, which

5 was also under the control of the BH army, was where the Zrak factory was

6 located which produced the optic sights.

7 A. I can't say that it was a factory during the war because I had no

8 information about that, nor ought I to have known that it was a factory,

9 or not a factory.

10 Q. Let me remind you that when you talked to the investigators of the

11 Tribunal, you made the following statement:

12 "Every municipality had a communications centre, and the Civil

13 Defence via those centres received information from the army and the

14 police force as to the positions of the Serb army. Via the Ministry of

15 the Defence, the Civil Defence was informed about the positions of the BH

16 army."

17 That is the conversation you had on the 3rd of October, 2000. It

18 is on page 2 of the B/C/S version, and that in the English version would

19 be also on page 2.

20 A. When we're talking about that kind of information, the

21 relationship between the army and Civil Defence, it referred only to the

22 information that was important and relevant to Civil Defence and the

23 civilian population.

24 Q. So you, as the Chief of Civil Defence, had no knowledge of where

25 important economic resources were located in your own municipality.

Page 925

1 A. No.

2 Q. You told me that in Dobrinja there were four staffs.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let me remind you that the Dobrinja settlement - and you probably

5 know that better than I do - was composed of five local communities?

6 A. Yes, four or five. I can't be sure.

7 Q. Did those four staffs cover the whole of Dobrinja?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So they covered Dobrinja 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5; is that right?

10 A. The parts of Dobrinja which were under the control of the army.

11 Q. Which army?

12 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- the then Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. May I conclude, then, that Dobrinja was divided and that parts of

15 Dobrinja were under the control of the BH army, whereas the other part of

16 Dobrinja was under the control -- or was not under any control?

17 A. It was under the control of some other army.

18 Q. Do you happen to know which army?

19 A. I think it was the army of the Bosnian Serbs.

20 Q. During the period you were discussing the conflict in Sarajevo,

21 did you happen to go to Dobrinja at any time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you have any knowledge or did you see what the demarcation

24 lines were like in Dobrinja? Did you know where they were? And if it is

25 not a problem, we can use the map and you can help us out. You can show

Page 926

1 us exactly where they were and explain to us how Dobrinja was divided,

2 which part of Dobrinja was under the BH army control and which part was

3 under the control of the army of Republika Srpska.

4 A. I can just tell you in principle but not in concrete terms.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

6 show the witness the map, because he used the map and explained it to us,

7 and he explained where Dobrinja was located on the map and where the

8 demarcation line was in relation to Alipasino Polje.

9 Q. So I would like, Witness, for you to answer my question and to

10 make it clearer to us, to show us how Dobrinja was divided at that time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher please bring the -- I think the blank

12 map at this moment.

13 Or would you like to use the other map? It depends what your

14 intentions are, Ms. Pilipovic? Do you want any additional drawing -- do

15 you want the coloured map?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Whatever is easier for the

17 witness. I suppose he'll find it easier to do the markings on the map he

18 has already marked.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You want markings on the map. So that means that you

20 would like to have the marked map to tender into evidence later on?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So it has to be clear. I think we --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the Prosecution exhibit.

24 The map is the Prosecution's exhibit, as far as I know. All I should like

25 to do is, for the purposes of my question, to cross-examine the witness as

Page 927

1 to the facts, because he has already looked at the map and explained it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: There's no problem with that, but just we have to

3 make sure with what map we start. We start with the big uncoloured map.

4 And you'd like to have --

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The black-and-white one, yes, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you want to have any markings on that --

8 That would mean, first of all, Madam Registrar, what was the

9 number of the exhibit given to the white map?


11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The black-and-white map, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So if we -- if it's your intention that the

14 witness will mark -- make marks on the map, we need another blank one that

15 you then later on can tender into evidence and which will get its own

16 number after it has been admitted in evidence.

17 So if the usher would please first bring the blank map which has

18 got already the P number and then a similar one on which the marks can be

19 made when the witness is invited to do so.

20 On the other hand, I see that it is almost half past 5.00. I

21 think it might be wise not to start going through the map at this moment

22 and do it after a break and have the break a couple -- two or three

23 minutes earlier in order not to disrupt your cross-examining the witness

24 on the map.

25 So I would suggest that we have a break now.

Page 928












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13 English transcripts.













Page 929

1 And according to the new order, I would like to invite the usher

2 to --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- guide the witness out of the courtroom. Then

5 Mr. Galic will be accompanied out of the courtroom.

6 We will then resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

9 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, Mr. President, may I just interpose

10 for one second. I have had a word with my learned friends regarding the

11 potential duration of the cross-examination. I am led to believe they are

12 not likely to complete by 7.00 this evening, and we do have the next

13 witness waiting on the premises. Now, we could, of course, with that

14 estimate let him go back to the hotel as he clearly won't be called on to

15 testify this afternoon if that's all right with you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's all right with me. Ms. Pilipovic, you can

17 confirm that cross-examination will not be concluded before 7.00?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness can return to his hotel.

20 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, after I've asked the usher to bring in

22 the witness, you can proceed with the cross-examination, but I'd like to

23 ask you whenever you ask him to mark anything on the map, just for our

24 convenience could you choose a nice colour but different from what has

25 been used by the Prosecution, and perhaps continue this during the whole

Page 930

1 trial, unless you want to change colours. But I think the Prosecution

2 used red, so if you would use choose either blue or green, if it's

3 available.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My

5 colleague will assist me with the colours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I just discussed with the court management that

7 today we'll start with a fresh new map, but I'm trying to figure out a

8 system in which for one witness, we use only one map and in different

9 colours markings on it so that we still have to find out who is going to

10 tender that in evidence at the end. But I'm trying to reduce the number

11 of maps we are confronted with at the end. But I'll figure that out

12 tomorrow with the court manager, and today we'll still use a map also for

13 the Defence, an extra one.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Defence thanks

16 you. Unfortunately, we only have a red marker, and I think the marks were

17 in red already. There are pens on this table we might use, perhaps. But

18 what Defence particularly wishes to say is it doesn't consider this

19 document as being a probative document. It's obliged for the

20 cross-examination these documents having been put by the -- by relation to

21 the same document, Defence takes issue with these documents as far as

22 probative value is concerned, and this is what we wish to say.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think this has been clarified before, but it

24 doesn't mean that you agree with everything that's on the map. You just

25 use it for the cross-examination and the marking made by the witness.

Page 931

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Kovac, can we continue. My question was with regard to

3 Dobrinja, and you said that you had four Civil Defence staffs.

4 A. May I add that there was another central staff, another Civil

5 Defence staff which covered what?

6 A. It covered the whole of Dobrinja.

7 Q. Where was that central staff?

8 A. It was in Dobrinja 3.

9 Q. Could you please show us Dobrinja 3, 2, 1 and 4, and 5 on the

10 map, and also the location of the central Civil Defence staff or

11 headquarters, please.

12 A. This is Dobrinja 1. This is Dobrinja 4. This is Dobrinja 3.

13 This is Dobrinja 2. This is the C5 settlement, and this is the airport

14 settlement. The Civil Defence headquarters was here, in this area in a

15 shelter. And that is Dobrinja 3.

16 Q. So the central headquarters, as you have referred to it for the

17 first time now, was there. Who was head of that central staff?

18 A. The commander of that staff in 1992 was Mr. Fuad Babic ^.

19 Q. What competencies did this central staff have in relation to you,

20 and was that commander at the same time the commander of all your staffs?

21 A. He was the commander of the Civil Defence staff for Dobrinja, all

22 Civil Defence staffs at Dobrinja. Because at first, Dobrinja was

23 separated from the rest of the Novi Grad municipality.

24 Q. You have marked here an airport settlement, and Dobrinja C5. Who

25 inhabited C5?

Page 932

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just, may I interrupt you, Ms. Pilipovic. You're

2 referring to "you marked here." I have not heard you inviting the witness

3 mark anything that has been discussed until now. Is it your intention

4 that he would mark it, then I would suggest to you that you invite the

5 witness by whatever colour. But if you intend not to do it, of course

6 it's entirely up to you. But just in order to avoid any misunderstanding

7 later on.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I would

9 like him to mark the neighbourhoods and to indicate where the staffs were,

10 these four Civil Defence staffs in Dobrinja.

11 A. [Marks]

12 JUDGE NEITO-NAVIA: I suggest you to use another colour because

13 it's

14 almost impossible to see it on the screen.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you use a blue ball point, that might be

16 more clear. It's more easy to write as well. That's a suggestion.

17 That's quite clear.

18 A. [Marks]

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. These five circles indicate the five staffs or headquarters, and

21 the fifth circle is the central staff. Is that right? Could you please

22 repeat and tell us which staffs were for which part of Dobrinja so as to

23 make it quite clear for us.

24 A. Dobrinja 3, Dobrinja 2, the central staff or headquarters, and

25 this is the C5 settlement. C5. Here, this was the central headquarters.

Page 933

1 This was Dobrinja 3. And this I think is Dobrinja 2. That is where the

2 staff was.

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you write down the numbers.

4 A. C for central. C5.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you. So these two settlements, if you could point them out

7 on the map, which you called the airport settlement, and C5.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Would that be Dobrinja 5?

10 A. No, this is Dobrinja 5. Dobrinja 5 is this, facing Nedzarici.

11 Q. You told us that Dobrinja was mostly inhabited by Serbs.

12 A. I didn't say that.

13 Q. Well, did you cover Dobrinja 5?

14 JUDGE ORIE: I must interrupt you, Ms. Pilipovic. Whenever the

15 witness points at a certain area or district or whatever, would you please

16 guide him in marking on the map so that we can understand later on what's

17 in the transcript. For example, they have been talking about Dobrinja 5.

18 So that -- you tell him what to mark on the map so that we would know

19 later on exactly what he was aiming at. Yes, please.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, would you please write down the number "5" so we know

22 that this is Dobrinja 5.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Did your Civil Defence staff cover Dobrinja 5?

25 A. Yes.

Page 934

1 Q. Did your Civil Defence cover the airport settlement?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Would you mark that, too, please, the whole area that you call the

4 airport settlement, lower down where you see buildings and roads on the

5 street.

6 A. This? What do you want me to mark?

7 Q. Just a circle and tell us what it is.

8 A. It is the C5 settlement. According to my judgment, it is C5.

9 Q. Well, mark it, please, and write down "C5."

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Did your headquarters cover that settlement?

12 A. Partially.

13 Q. When you say "partially," what does that mean?

14 A. It means that the separation line was within that settlement.

15 Q. Could you tell us the name of the street?

16 A. I can't remember. I'm unable to tell you.

17 Q. And do you know how wide and how long the separation line was?

18 A. It was very close by.

19 Q. When you say "close," what do you mean?

20 A. Some 20 or 30 or 40 metres separated them.

21 Q. Could we agree that the separation lines between the army of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republika Srpska army were separated by some 20

23 metres?

24 A. I didn't have direct insight, but on the basis of what other

25 people said, that was my impression.

Page 935

1 Q. Would you please draw the separation line in relation to

2 Dobrinja 5, or rather, where exactly was the separation line in

3 Dobrinja 5?

4 A. Roughly here, as far as I know, though I had no direct knowledge.

5 MR. BLAXILL: Could my learned friend indicate, please, what

6 period of time we are talking about at this particular point.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please do so, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're talking about

9 the relevant period, that is, 1992 and 1993, up to 1994.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Your response suggests, Ms. Pilipovic, that there has

11 been no change in this line during this whole period. Whether this is

12 true or not, I don't know, but perhaps you could verify with the witness

13 whether this suggestion that lies in your answer --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I was just going to ask him that,

15 Your Honour.

16 Q. When were those separation lines established, and for how long did

17 they exist?

18 A. I don't know exactly because that was not within my field of

19 interest or my area of responsibility, but those lines were maintained for

20 a long time.

21 Q. And when were they established?

22 A. Probably at the beginning of the war. I can't be sure of that.

23 Q. When was that, in your view?

24 A. At the beginning of 1992, the first half of 1992.

25 Q. Can you tell us what month it was?

Page 936












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Page 937

1 A. No, I couldn't tell you. I really couldn't.

2 Q. When you say the beginning of 1992, you mean the first half of

3 1992?

4 A. Yes, probably towards the end of the first half of 1992, though

5 really I'm not familiar with that. I cannot tell you, when I don't have

6 direct knowledge.

7 Q. Could you please explain to me: This separation line in relation

8 to Alipasino Polje, did it run along this road here? And would you draw

9 that separation line, though I think you already have, in relation to

10 Nedzarici and Alipasino Polje.

11 A. I'm really unable to do so specifically because this is the

12 responsibility of military experts and military maps. I was not a person

13 going to the front line, nor do I know where the lines were exactly. You

14 could ask somebody who really is knowledgeable about these things. I was

15 just explaining as a matter of principle, in general terms, roughly where

16 these things were, that is, as much as I knew as the Civil Defence. As

17 for separation lines and front lines, I am really unable to give you an

18 exact answer. I'm afraid of making a mistake.

19 Q. Yes. But tell us the area that was of interest to you as the

20 Civil Defence. Would you mark that.

21 A. Well, it would be -- shall I draw a line?

22 Q. Yes, draw a line.

23 A. You mean the Olympic Village as you enter it towards Dobrinja 5,

24 behind Dobrinja 5, and you go on into Dobrinja, that it would be here.

25 Q. You said during your testimony, and in answer to a question from

Page 938

1 my learned friend, that this part of across the way from Dobrinja where it

2 says "Novi Grad," that that is where the Mojmilo hill is. Would you

3 please mark on the map the area of the Mojmilo hill.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Do you perhaps know the elevation of that hill, how high it is?

6 A. No, I really don't know. I can just guess. If you wish, I will

7 give you a rough estimate.

8 Q. No, there's no need. Would you please tell me: These buildings

9 at Alipasino Polje that you refer to, how high were those buildings?

10 A. Well, there were different heights depending on how many storeys

11 they had. There were buildings with 20 and more floors. They are the

12 highest ones, and the civil engineers could tell you exactly what the

13 height of that building is.

14 Q. So if we're talking about a building with 20-something floors,

15 then -- could you mark on the map which those buildings are at Alipasino

16 Polje.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. These mark a circle.

19 A. This is the whole of Alipasino Polje.

20 Q. Make a circle around it.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Now, could you circle Nedzarici on this map.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. What is the height of the buildings at Nedzarici?

25 A. There were no high-rise buildings in Nedzarici.

Page 939

1 Q. Would you agree with me that these are mostly family houses?

2 A. Yes, predominantly family houses.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that on the border between -- on the edge

4 of Nedzarici, there's a student hostel, and could you tell us how high it

5 is?

6 A. Let me try and find it on the map. Just a moment, here it is.

7 This is it. There are two buildings belonging to the student hostel, and

8 they were about -- I don't know. Maybe some 10 floors. I think about 10

9 floors.

10 Q. Could you show us on the map the Vojnicko Polje, please.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. How high were the buildings at Vojnicko Polje?

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you would allow me to interrupt again,

14 Ms. Pilipovic, at the end we have a map with a lot of circles without any

15 indication what is which circle. So I suggest to you that you invite the

16 witness to mark it also with letters so that we later on know exactly what

17 the transcript is about. Thank you.

18 Perhaps we could start a few questions back.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. The circle marking Alipasino Polje, would you mark it with an A.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And the circle indicating Vojnicko Polje, would you put a V.

23 A. [marks]

24 Q. And Nedzarici, put an N.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 940

1 Q. How frequently did you visit these settlements in view of the fact

2 that your headquarters were at Dobrinja and how frequently did you go

3 there?

4 A. It depended on the situation, on the ability to go there. For

5 instance, twice to three times a month to these settlements because there

6 were Civil Defence, the headquarters over there.

7 Q. And in Dobrinja and Alipasino Polje, were there military

8 headquarters as well?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In the statement you gave to the Tribunal investigators, you said

11 that you knew where the military headquarters were at Alipasino Polje.

12 " A. I knew of some military headquarters at Alipasino Polje,

13 but apart from that, I couldn't say anything more about

14 the positions of the BH army."

15 Could you mark at Alipasino Polje where the military headquarters

16 were?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness make pauses. It

18 is impossible to follow in this way, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you. The interpretation is not able

20 to -- it goes far too quick. So if you please wait a while before

21 answering the question that Ms. Pilipovic has put to you, and if

22 Ms. Pilipovic would wait just a while before putting a new question for

23 the witness. Thank you.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please answer my question, please.

Page 941

1 A. So initially, there were some areas of some units which had some

2 sort of logistics of their own. They were treated as areas of certain

3 military formations, which were very quickly transferred and which -- I'm

4 talking about the beginning of the war. At the beginning of the war, they

5 were fitted in to the other units of the BH army, and they were pulled out

6 of the settlements precisely because of the danger of these settlements

7 being shelled because of these objects.

8 Q. When you say initially, would you tell us and which brigades you

9 are referring to?

10 A. I cannot tell you what the brigades were, but I would say that

11 this applies to the first -- to the three or four months of 1992.

12 Q. The first half of 1992 or the second?

13 A. The first half of 1992.

14 Q. And which were those units?

15 A. Those were certain military formations which actually came into

16 being at the beginning of the war from the settlements when resistance was

17 organised. So these were units that simply had their own areas in the

18 settlements, but as the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was enlarged, they came

19 under the command of the BH army, because the intention was to remove

20 those units from there, and to deploy them where the other army units were

21 so that they would be normally placed under a unified command.

22 Q. Could you identify those units for us? Did they have some names

23 that they were known by, after somebody's name, if you knew that they

24 existed, could you give us a name of one or two at least?

25 A. For instance, there was a unit called after a certain Miso, Miso's

Page 942

1 unit at the beginning. Then there were some called the Mambes, they

2 called them Mambes. Something like that. I can't recollect any other

3 names. But in any event, those were small groups which the aim was to

4 neutralise them in those areas and to place them under a certain command,

5 to grow into a different unit, and to be removed from these areas where

6 they could represent a threat to the population in the sense that those

7 areas might be shelled because of them. Because there was -- it was

8 generally believed among the population that if there was any kind of

9 military object close to a settlement or within a settlement, then the

10 settlement would be at risk, and the people in it.

11 Q. Could you identify those objects for us? What were their names?

12 A. I couldn't really.

13 Q. And how many were there?

14 A. Three or four, I think, roughly. But I really don't have that

15 information. We know - at least I know - that the army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina was active in certain areas. It had its facilities.

17 It used the barracks which had been evacuated by the former JNA. As for

18 the facilities within settlements, I cannot tell you anything specific

19 about them because these facilities were reverted to civilian use

20 afterwards and they were moved out of them.

21 Q. But you do know that there were such units at the beginning of

22 1992 in other parts of Sarajevo, as you told us that you moved around and

23 you gave us an overview.

24 A. Probably there were such units. Now, why they existed and how,

25 probably because of the aggravation of the situation. They were initially

Page 943












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13 English transcripts.













Page 944

1 formed in certain settlements simply as some kind of protective units of

2 the local population to protect that local settlement. And after, on the

3 basis of certain instructions, which certainly must have been made public

4 through the media, the TV, the radio. These units had to be placed under

5 the command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Let me remind you, in view of the fact that you referred to the

7 media, were they units of Juka Prazina, Ramiz Delalic, Musan Copalovic,

8 Caco?

9 A. Yes, there were stories about those units as well.

10 Q. Do you know where their headquarters were located?

11 A. I really had no contacts with any units of that kind or those

12 people either.

13 Q. Do you happen to know whether they took part in any incidents or

14 fighting during the time they were being established?

15 A. On the basis of what people said, I myself did not take part in

16 that, so I can't say. But on the basis of what people said, they did take

17 part in certain drives and defence action at the level of the town.

18 Q. Defence action against whom? In relation to whom?

19 A. Well, in relation to what the public was told, that is to say, the

20 forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

21 Q. So your knowledge and information comes from the media. You have

22 no personal knowledge of that. Is that right?

23 A. Well, as far as it was rumoured among people in town, because we

24 were in a closed space, and quite certainly information spread very

25 quickly from one part of town to the other.

Page 945

1 Q. You told us that the command posts of those units were displaced

2 and that the BH army was set up and that that was the army which was in

3 Sarajevo.

4 A. Let me make matters clearer. They were some objects. Whether

5 they were command posts or not, I can't say, because I had no way of

6 seeing anything. Someone from the Civil Defence -- we had different

7 obligations, different problems, different spheres of interest, so that

8 quite simply we couldn't, nor were we allowed, by those units to get to

9 know their membership, their commands, and what they were doing, that kind

10 of thing.

11 Q. In talking to my learned friends, you said that via the Ministry

12 of Defence, the Civil Defence was informed about the positions of the BH

13 army. Now, in view of the fact that you yourself was the head of the

14 Civil Defence on the Novi Grad territory and, you told us, the local

15 communities that came under your control, could you now tell us which

16 brigades of the BH army were in Dobrinja, Alipasino Polje, and all the

17 other local communities which you enumerated and of which I can remind

18 you? I am asking you specifically about Dobrinja. Which brigade was

19 located in Dobrinja?

20 A. Just a moment. Just let me think for a moment.

21 Q. Was it the 5th Brigade?

22 A. Yes, the 5th Motorised Brigade, yes.

23 Q. Was the commander of that 5th Motorised Brigade Ismet Hadzic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was Ibro Ceco the head of security?

Page 946

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Which brigade was at Alipasino Polje?

3 A. You're asking about Alipasino Polje?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. There was no brigade.

6 Q. What about a company or a Battalion of some kind?

7 A. No. As far as I know, no. Just the ones we mentioned earlier.

8 If you have a piece of information, I would be happy to hear it.

9 Q. Which brigade was located in Hrasno?

10 A. You're asking about Hrasno?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I think it was the 101st Brigade.

13 Q. If you happen to know, how many brigades -- how many soldiers were

14 in the brigades?

15 A. I don't know. They were military secrets. And they really did

16 treat us as civilians; that is to say, the Civil Defence was treated as

17 being civilian.

18 Q. Where was the command headquarters of the 5th Motorised Brigade in

19 Dobrinja?

20 A. I couldn't say. I really couldn't. That is a question for

21 someone else, an army man. I really can't answer.

22 Q. I have to conclude that you are well-versed in military techniques

23 and technology, and that's why I am asking you the questions. If not, I

24 apologise.

25 A. All I can answer is questions with respect to Civil Defence

Page 947

1 organisations, so what staffs and headquarters are, how many men they

2 numbered, what they were in charge of, what forces the Civil Defence has.

3 So that might have resembled some sort of military terminology, but let me

4 say that the army, the military, is something quite different.

5 Q. Which unit was in Buca Potok?

6 A. In Buca Potok? The unit there for Buco Potok was the 2nd Vitez

7 Brigade.

8 Q. And Brijesce Brdo, what about that?

9 A. Well, it covered that region over there.

10 Q. And Rajlovac, what about that?

11 A. Probably the 2nd Vitez Brigade.

12 Q. I see. The 2nd Vitez brigade, you say. What about Stup hill?

13 A. I can't say. I don't know

14 Q. What about the Otoka settlement?

15 A. In the Otoka settlement; is that what you're asking?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. There wasn't a brigade there. There might have been some units

18 there, but they left very quickly, and they were linked to some formations

19 that are extinguished. But at Otoka, there were no brigades, as far as I

20 know.

21 Q. During the time you held your post during the war in Sarajevo,

22 where did you yourself reside?

23 A. I was living at the time in the C-phase settlement of Alipasino

24 Polje.

25 Q. You say Alipasino Polje. And where did you work?

Page 948

1 A. In the Novi Grad municipality. And for a time, I actually

2 spent -- slept in the municipality building, and this went on for about a

3 year.

4 Q. Do you happen to know in view of the fact that we have agreed that

5 in Dobrinja, there was the 5th Brigade, and that in Hrasno, you said --

6 A. The 101st.

7 Q. I see. The 101st, very well. And that in Nedzarici, there was

8 the army of Republika Srpska.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in Buljakov Potok? Which brigade say for Buljakov Potok?

11 A. The 2nd Vitez Brigade.

12 Q. And what about Velika hill?

13 A. The same goes for that, too. And it probably covered that area,

14 over there.

15 Q. During that period of time, and when I say period, let me make

16 myself quite clear, from 1992 to 1994, was there fighting in that part of

17 town?

18 A. Which part of town do you mean?

19 Q. Let me be more specific.

20 MR. BLAXILL: We have got the whole of 1992. I wonder if my

21 learned friend could make differentiations between what part of 1992 she

22 is talking about.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about September 1992

25 to August 1994.

Page 949

1 Q. So my question is specifically related to that period of time.

2 A. I really can't say. I don't know. There were operations

3 underway, but I was not kept abreast of that. I don't know.

4 Q. How many soldiers did the -- did a brigade have?

5 A. I really don't know.

6 Q. Do you know that on the territory of the city of Sarajevo the zone

7 of responsibility was under the 1st Corps of the BH army, the 1st Corps of

8 the BH army had that area of responsibility?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know how many brigades there were in a corps?

11 A. I really don't know.

12 Q. Do you know how many soldiers a corps had?

13 A. I don't.

14 Q. You described the map of the surroundings of Sarajevo when asked

15 by my learned friend. Could you draw a circle around the Hrasno

16 settlement, because you said that that was under your zone.

17 A. Which did you say?

18 Q. I said Hrasno.

19 A. I apologise. My hearing isn't too good. I can't hear very well.

20 Q. Would you write down the brigade that was in Hrasno?

21 A. As far as I know, the 101st.

22 Q. Do you happen to know where the demarcation line was in that area?

23 A. I don't know for sure, but I do know that they spoke about a

24 square which is today called the Square of Heroes, Tilgehoja [phoen].

25 Q. What was its name before?

Page 950

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. Was it the Pero Kosjevic Square?

3 A. Yes, that's right. Pero Kosjevic square.

4 Q. Would you move left, and then you come to the Grbavica

5 settlement. No right, yes, that's right. I apologise, right. That's the

6 Grbavica settlement?

7 A. Yes, this part here. Shall I draw a circle around it?

8 Q. Yes, please. Do you know under whose control the Grbavica

9 settlement was?

10 A. I didn't have any personal insight into that, I can say that for

11 sure. But on the basis of what I had heard from sources, from news in

12 town, from the media as well, Grbavica was under the control of the army

13 of Republika Srpska. No, What I mean to say is the Bosnian Serb army.

14 Q. Would you write a "G" in the circle, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. What about the Hrasno and Grbavica settlements? Where was the

17 demarcation line there?

18 A. I don't know. I couldn't say.

19 Q. Do you happen to know that in that area of Sarajevo, there was

20 fighting?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How do you know about that?

23 A. From what people who had taken part said and the population in the

24 surrounding areas.

25 Q. How frequent was the fighting?

Page 951












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Page 952

1 A. Well, at the beginning, as far as I remember, it was more frequent

2 at the beginning of the war. So that is -- means the first half of 1992.

3 Q. To the right of the Grbavica settlement, can you identify and

4 point out Debelo Brdo, the hill Debelo Brdo to me, please. Do you know

5 the altitude of Debelo Brdo and who controlled it during the conflict?

6 Who was in control there?

7 A. I don't know the altitude, but -- I don't have that information.

8 I can't say who was at Debelo Brdo.

9 Q. To the right of Debelo Brdo, would you identify Colina Kapa. It

10 says Colina Kapa and Mala Kapa. And write a "C" there, please. And

11 another letter "C" in the second spot.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Do you happen to know that during the conflict, and let me be

14 quite precise, in 1992, 1993, and 1994, who was in control of those two

15 Hills?

16 MR. BLAXILL: I'm sorry, Your Honour that isn't precise. That's

17 three years.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. September 1992,

19 1993, up until August 1994, if you want me to be more precise. Could the

20 witness tell us please whether he has any knowledge as to who controlled

21 the two hills?

22 A. I can't say with certainty -- or rather, I can say that they were

23 under the control of, in part, that is -- actually, all I can do IS

24 clarify a point. On the radio, which sent out regular reports as to

25 activities along the demarcation line during the war, all the fighting and

Page 953

1 on that basis, I know that Colina Kapa was an area of conflict and where

2 positions shifted during the war. Both of the BH army and the army of --

3 or rather the army of Bosnian Serbs. Now, I really can't say exactly who

4 was at those elevations or who was in control in that area and who held

5 the lines. I don't have that knowledge.

6 Q. Will you agree with me that the height of Colina Kapa, Mala and

7 Velika and their position is to divide Grbavica from Sarajevo?

8 A. No, I can't really enter into that kind of thing until I had

9 conducted a direct immediate expertise. I can't say this way, from this

10 position and from this perspective and this angle of vision, I really

11 can't say. I'm not sufficiently well acquainted with the terrain, with

12 that part of Sarajevo. I really don't know it well enough and I can't say

13 that I agree.

14 Q. Have you ever at Colina Kapa, Mala and Velika?

15 MR. BLAXILL: [Previous translation continues] .... transcript.

16 That's the only reason I've intervening at this point. I thought my

17 learned friend said that Colina Kapa divided Trebevic from Sarajevo. I

18 see the line here, line 22, page 77. It says "Grbavica from Sarajevo."

19 Is that correct? It's not what I recall hearing.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My question was, Trebevic, yes,

21 Trebevic was the dividing point in relation to Sarajevo.

22 So could the witness locate Trebevic in relation to Colina Kapa to

23 make it quite clear to us where Trebevic is located.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. Asked by my learned friend today, you said that you

Page 954

1 know where Spicasta Stijena is. Would you identify it for us one more

2 time, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Were you ever at Spicasta Stijena?

5 A. After the war.

6 Q. What can you see from Spicasta Stijena?

7 A. You can see -- actually the part called Grdonja. You can see

8 Sedrenik, Carsija, Jelave which means the settlements underneath that

9 elevated part.

10 Q. Do you happen to know during the conflict, not to mention the

11 whole relevant period again, under whose control Spicasta Stijena was?

12 A. That region, or rather we can speak about the woods, and that was

13 under the control of the army of Bosnian Serbs.

14 Q. Was it the whole part?

15 A. No, only partially. As far as I know. But that is the

16 information I have, but I haven't got any personal insight into the

17 matter. I don't know personally.

18 Q. So you agree that the place where Spicasta Stijena is located

19 within the frameworks of the Sedam Suma area was divided. One part

20 controlled by the Bosnian Serb army and the other part by the BH army?

21 A. As far as I know the lines were quite close.

22 Q. How close?

23 A. Perhaps -- that is not a densely populated area, so several

24 hundred metres, I would say.

25 Q. Looking at the map, could you identify Hum, the hill of Hum.

Page 955

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. In relation to Hum hill, would you write an H. And could you

3 identify Zuc hill.

4 A. Approximately in this area here.

5 Q. During the conflict, under whose control were those two hills. Do

6 you know?

7 A. I don't know which period you mean.

8 Q. I mean from September 1992 until August 1994.

9 A. As far as Hum hill is concerned, it was under the control of the

10 BH army during that period. And as for Zuc hill, I know that there was

11 fighting up there. And that there was some shifting of the BH army in

12 relation to the Serb forces, or rather forces of the Bosnian Serbs, that

13 there was a shifting of positions. And that later on, the hill came to be

14 controlled by the BH army. I don't know what year that was, was it 1992

15 or 1993.

16 Q. When I asked you about Hum hill, you said that it was under the

17 control of the BH army?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And Pofalici are below Hum hill. Who controlled Pofalici?

20 A. Pofalici were under the control of the BH army.

21 Q. Since when?

22 A. Since the beginning, which means since April or perhaps May.

23 Q. Are you talking about 1992?

24 A. Yes. Thereabouts, I think it was May 1992, in fact.

25 Q. In relation to the Hrasno settlement and Pofalici, can you tell us

Page 956

1 the distance in relation to the Grbavica settlement as well? What divides

2 this area, those two settlements? Grbavica/Pofalici and Hrasno/Pofalici,

3 what divides those areas, what separates them?

4 A. I don't know how you mean, in what sense?

5 Q. Well, Pofalici and Hrasno, is there anything that divides the

6 two? If you don't know, say you don't know.

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know which brigades were in Pofalici

9 and at Hum?

10 A. I really don't know. I couldn't say, really.

11 Q. You told us, looking to the left of Zuc hill, that you have

12 Brijesce Brdo and Sokolje. Would you draw a circle around Brijesce Brdo

13 and Sokolje and writes the letters S and B.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. You told me that the Sokolje and Brijesce Brdo settlements were

16 within the frameworks of the zone of your civil headquarters. Is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which units of the BH army covered that part, Brijesce Brdo and

20 Sokolje? Let me make this more clear: From the aspects of Civil Defence,

21 which measures were taken in view of the danger that was in the area, that

22 it was frequently shelled.

23 A. Many people from this area, according to the measures for

24 protection and safety, the populations were moved towards the interior of

25 the Novi Grad municipality so that a large portion of the population of

Page 957

1 Sokolje and Brijesce Brdo, a significant portion was moved to this more

2 secure zone because towards Rajlovac and towards this other part down

3 there, towards the field where the railway line was, or rather, they said

4 that the locomotives were stationed there. That's what they said. And

5 that is where -- from where they targeted the area. And as the population

6 was at an elevation, they moved to the depth of the municipality.

7 As to the brigades that were there, I'm not quite sure, but I

8 think it was the area of responsibility of the 2nd Vitez Brigade, or

9 Viteska Brigade.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it's almost 7.00. Would you find a

11 moment where you could end the cross-examination for today. I don't know

12 whether this is the moment or you...

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I can end for the day, but

14 my cross-examination will last as long as the examination-in-chief --

15 within the scope of the examination-in-chief in time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think you'll still need?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Another hour, I believe.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Very well. That's clear to us.

19 So if this would be a suitable point to stop, then I would just,

20 for clarification's sake, I would like to ask one question -- two

21 questions for the witness, if you would allow me. And that is write into

22 the circle here that is drawn around the students' hostel, or near to it,

23 the letters SH. SH, please.

24 A. [Marks]

25 JUDGE ORIE: And near to the arrow indicating Mojmilo hill,

Page 958












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 959

1 perhaps the word "Mojmilo Hill" or "Mojmilo."

2 A. [Marks]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any of my colleagues that have any

4 additional question at this moment? No.

5 Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow afternoon, quarter past 2.00,

6 p.m. And I wanted to ask the usher to bring Mr. Kovac out of the

7 courtroom.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to ask the guards to bring General Galic

9 out of the courtroom.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll be adjourned until tomorrow.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of December,

13 2001, at 2.15 p.m.