1 Friday, 11 January 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Before we resume the examination of the witness, I would like to
10 give you the decision on a few issues that have been raised yesterday.
11 First, I have no transcript on my screen. Yes, now I have the transcript
12 on at least one screen, but not on my laptop computer yet.
13 I think that it will function now, because my computer says
14 computer -- yes, it's functioning. Thank you very much for the technical
16 First of all, I would like to give you the decision of the Chamber
17 which has been taken upon the suggestion of the Defence to organise the
18 hearings in a different way. It was proposed by the Defence that we sit
19 four days a week and three weeks a month. As I told you yesterday, the
20 second suggestion is not followed by the Chamber, but suggestions have
21 caused the Chamber to consider whether it would be in the interests of
22 justice to change the schedule. I think there should be proper time to
23 prepare the hearings, and our schedule is rather tight. So we slightly
24 will change it. And the reasons -- the system we have in mind is that if
25 we are sitting a whole week without any interruption by holidays or
1 whatever, and if we would sit during that week in morning and afternoon
2 sessions, we'll skip the Friday afternoon session. If we will sit the
3 whole week without any interruption in long afternoon sessions, we will
4 not continue on Friday until 7.00 but we'll stop at 4.30. If, however, we
5 are sitting during the long morning sessions, the schedule will stay as it
7 Let me just explain to you what this means for the weeks to come.
8 The week starting on January 14th, there's no session scheduled Tuesday,
9 the 15th, so there's no reason to skip anything during that week. The
10 week of January the 21st we are sitting in morning and afternoon sessions,
11 so on Friday, the 25th, we'll skip the afternoon session. The week of
12 January 28th we are also sitting morning and afternoon. We'll skip the
13 Friday, 1st of February, afternoon session.
14 The week of February 4th there will be no -- there's no session
15 scheduled on Friday, the 8th of February, so nothing will change in the
16 schedule for that week.
17 The week of February 11th we'll have morning and afternoon
18 sessions. That means we'll skip the Friday afternoon session. That's
19 Friday, the 15th of February.
20 The week of February the 18th, no session has been scheduled for
21 Friday, the 22nd, so nothing will change for that week.
22 The week starting with February the 25th, we'll have long
23 afternoon sessions during the whole week, so we'll stop at Friday, the 1st
24 of March, at 4.30 in the afternoon.
25 The same is valid for the week starting on the 4th of March.
1 We'll stop on Friday, the 8th of March, at 4.30.
2 The week starting on the 11th of March, there's no session
3 scheduled for Friday, the 15th, so nothing will change in the schedule for
4 that week.
5 I just indicated to you what the system actually results in.
6 Apart from this very practical decision, we also had to decide on the
7 objections raised by the Defence against the admission in evidence of
8 medical records used during the testimony of Dr. Nakas. First of all, the
9 Chamber notes that there are no specific Rules on the authentication of
10 documents in our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Dr. Nakas has testified
11 that he recognises the photocopies of the documents shown to him as
12 photocopies of the medical documentation as they are kept in his hospital
13 in Sarajevo in which he worked and that he was entitled to authenticate
14 these kind of documents on behalf of the hospital.
15 The Chamber accepts this as a sufficient authentication of these
16 documents and therefore denies the objection of the Defence and admits
17 these documents into evidence. The Chamber has taken into consideration
18 that it has not been argued by the Defence that the documents were copies
19 of forged originals, nor that there's any evidence that would support any
20 suggestion that the originals would be forgeries. If the Defence,
21 however, seeks to establish that either the content of these documents as
22 unreliable they may present any evidence which would support this thesis.
23 Similarly, it may present evidence or ask the Chamber to order further
24 examination upon good cause shown in order to establish that the originals
25 of the photocopies shown to Dr. Nakas were forgeries. Of course, this
1 admission into evidence doesn't say anything about the probative value
2 that these documents will have when evaluating the evidence later on.
3 The Defence seems to have taken the position that forensic,
4 non-destructive examination of medical records should be ordered or
5 allowed as a matter of routine when such documents are tendered into
6 evidence, and as a routine, I mean to say, as a routine once this has been
7 requested by the party, so requested to have them forensically examined.
8 The Defence has relied upon an unspecified decision in the
9 Vasiljevic case. The Chamber has checked the Vasiljevic precedent and it
10 could hardly be of any guidance to the Chamber since in this Vasiljevic
11 case there were serious reasons to argue, and in fact it was argued, that
12 the documents of which a copy was relied upon by the Defence to support an
13 alibi Defence was a forgery, and the Chamber would like to have in the
14 future clear references and sources to be given if a party relies on
15 decisions taken in other cases. The Trial Chamber did find eight
16 documents among which three orders related to the seizure and examination
17 of medical records in the Vasiljevic case, and the Chamber thinks it would
18 have been appropriate for the Defence to elaborate in further detail on
19 the Vasiljevic decisions and to provide the Chamber with relevant
20 information as to the content and the data, for example, dates of the
21 decisions, if not even to provide the Chamber with copies of it, of what
22 was presented as a relevant precedent.
23 That's the decision as far as the admissibility of the medical
24 records is concerned. I think that -- there was a final -- it has been
25 suggested by the Defence that the Chamber should not admit the Prosecution
1 to examine Mr. Ashton for the time it intends to examine him. The Chamber
2 has considered the potential probative value and the relevance of the
3 evidence and has decided that the Prosecution may proceed in the
4 examination of Mr. Ashton.
5 Then finally, I'd like to know whether the Defence was able to
6 properly prepare the cross-examination also in view of the maps used by
7 Mr. Ashton, so that we know where we stand. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
9 Mr. President, for giving us the floor. I would just like to respond to
10 one point. Before I respond to your question, I have to tell you that I
11 will have to be absent on Monday. Unfortunately, I won't be able to
12 attend the trial on Monday, which might cause certain problems, because it
13 was my intention to cross-examine the witness. I still don't know how
14 much time the Prosecution intends to examine the witness in chief. As to
15 your question, unfortunately we have not been in a position, due to the
16 lack of time, to elaborate entirely the documents. However, I note the
17 possibility that you mentioned of having this witness brought back for
18 additional examination. The Defence will be able to start the
19 cross-examination tomorrow; however, should it be necessary, we hope that
20 it would be possible to --
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: -- call the witness once again. We'll see in
23 the afternoon how things proceed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then call in Mr. Ashton, bring
25 in Mr. Ashton, I should say.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Thank you very much. Just a minor matter in relation
4 to the timetable. I notice that the most recent version of the timetable
5 has us sitting on Friday, the 29th of March, which I think is Good
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I checked that and think a mistake has been
8 made by the Registry, because Good Friday is a formal UN holiday, so I'll
9 check whether we will sit or not, and the information given to me is that
10 we will not sit on Good Friday.
11 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
15 WITNESS: JOHN ASHTON [Resumed]
16 Examined by Mr. Blaxill: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ashton.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I may remind Mr. Ashton that he's still bound by the
19 solemn declaration that he made at the beginning of his testimony.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 MR. BLAXILL:
22 Q. Mr. Ashton, if I may just remind you, as I shall remind myself,
23 that we should watch the transcript carefully and not speed up as we are
24 prone to do because we are working in our own native language.
25 Mr. Ashton, at this time I would like, in fact, to put an album of
1 photographs before you. We have supplied and served copies of these.
2 They should be available to Your Honours.
3 Mr. Ashton, I would like you, if you please, to look through that
4 album, where you will see certain individual, small selections of
5 photographs, and state to the Chamber whether you recognise those
6 photographs, whether indeed you took them, and, very briefly, what the
7 individual batches of photographs depict.
8 So starting, if I may, the first batch of photographs we can
9 identify with the ERN numbers or the concluding numbers of 1272 and 1273.
10 Do you recognise those photographs?
11 A. Yes, I recognise these photographs. I took these photographs.
12 Q. Mr. Ashton, sorry. Could you wait until the print stops and
13 then --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- start a response. Thank you.
16 A. Yes. These photographs were taken by me April of 1993, the first
17 set, 1272 and 1273, while I was aboard a bus travelling through the city
18 of Sarajevo. I got on the bus in front of the State Hospital, and when we
19 reached one of the intersections that we discussed in testimony yesterday,
20 where there had always been heavy sniping, a sniper fired into the bus.
21 Q. Mr. Ashton, I would ask: Perhaps when you start describing each
22 photograph, could you just place the album onto the ELMO so it can come up
23 on the screens.
24 A. Yes. In the photo preceding 172, I took a picture -- or I
25 actually had taken two or three pictures of people in the bus, and when we
1 rounded the corner in the dangerous intersection, there was a pop and
2 glass breaking and everyone went down to the floor. The bullet came in
3 through the upper part of the window and when down into -- from this
4 direction down into below the seat and out the side of the bus. It fired
5 from a high angle.
6 Q. Can you say whereabouts in Sarajevo was the bus at that time and
7 where was the side of the bus facing that received the bullet hit?
8 A. The bus was parallel to what would be Hrasno. Near Sarajevo but
9 back towards Hrasno. The fire came from above the area of the sports
10 stadium over in Grbavica.
11 Q. And --
12 A. The left side of the bus -- sorry. The left side of the bus was
13 facing the sports stadium as the bus was heading west towards the PTT from
14 the State Hospital.
15 Q. Perhaps if we're going to have these location references, could
16 the map be placed back in front of Mr. Ashton. And perhaps he could just
17 briefly point out on the map?
18 JUDGE ORIE: What map are we using now?
19 MR. BLAXILL: This would be the black and white, which is the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: The original, yes.
21 THE WITNESS: Could I have the more detailed street map of
22 Sarajevo that we used yesterday, or do we have one? This is a little bit
24 MR. BLAXILL: If you're happy with that, Your Honours, I would be
25 very happy for Mr. Ashton to use the larger-scale map that he used
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think it has not been yet finally tendered into
4 MR. BLAXILL: No, not yet.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If it's your intention to have any markings made on
6 it, it still could be done. I've got one problem. It's premarked in red.
7 MR. BLAXILL: At this time, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: At this time. So I'd like to make a clear
9 distinction on those premarks already on the map when it was presented to
10 the witness, perhaps use exceptionally another colour if there would be
11 any additional markings. I don't know whether we have any green.
12 MR. BLAXILL: Well, we could use blue if that would be suitable.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, blue could be used since black - I checked
14 that - is for the Defence. So if the witness feels more comfortable with
15 the small map, it can be used.
16 MR. BLAXILL: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 And if it's a convenient way to do it, Your Honour, perhaps we can
18 use the marking "P" with a number for photograph or photographs, and then
19 they can be P1, 2, 3, 4, 5 as we go through the individual sets of
20 photographs in the album.
21 Q. So, Mr. Ashton, could you please mark on the map with the -- with
22 "P1" where you say that incident took place that you photographed.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you. And just to indicate, where do you say the direction
25 of the shot came from? Could you just indicate it perhaps with an arrow
1 pointing to P1, adjacent to it.
2 A. In the general direction from here to here.
3 Q. Thank you. And do you recall who at that time held that
5 A. That territory is in Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Could I draw your attention now to the next set, the photographs,
7 the second half of the ERN has been marked 1278 onwards to 1283. And
8 again, could you just place that back on the ELMO. If you could thumb
9 through the photographs on the ELMO, that would be of assistance.
10 A. When I explain this photograph, I'll put the map back to show
11 where that photograph was taken as well.
12 Q. Please do.
13 A. This particular point is in the marketplace below Ciglane, below
14 Kosevo Hospital and Ciglane, where I witnessed people going to get water
15 every day. This area was a specific target at certain times of the day.
16 There were no casualties at this time, but there were several people
17 killed and wounded at this particular location getting water, by shelling.
18 Q. And when did you take that particular photograph, Mr. Ashton?
19 A. This was, I believe, July of 1992.
20 Q. And the next photograph, sir?
21 A. This photograph was taken in Ciglane, when water was brought up
22 for the local community, which is very close to the point where I just
23 showed you the other picture but up on a hill in an apartment block right
24 above it. This area was not deliberately targeted by Serb forces when
25 people were collecting water because this particular water point was only
1 occasional, as they tried to get tank trucks full of water and organise
2 movement of distribution of water so it would be less dangerous to people
3 to go out and collect water.
4 Q. Do you recall when you took that particular photograph?
5 A. This is also about the time of July.
6 Q. The same year?
7 A. The same year, 1992.
8 Q. Thank you. And the next photograph, sir?
9 A. This photograph was taken down on Marsala Tita Street, in the
10 centre of town. Occasionally there would be water here but not every day,
11 because the water supply was cut off in this area. This was about October
12 here, I believe.
13 Q. Of which year?
14 A. 1992. This was October 1992. The next picture will identify the
15 date for me.
16 Q. Could you move to that next picture, please.
17 A. Yes. One moment and I will show you where this location is. This
18 picture was taken right in this area here. There was a building here
19 where the waterline came out, near the Presidency, just up the street from
20 the Presidency.
21 Q. And could you mark that, then, please.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And does the marking "P2" sufficiently cover the area for all of
24 those photographs in that batch?
25 A. Negative. I will have to -- I'll start with P2 up in Ciglane for
1 the first photograph and I'll show everyone where Ciglane is. Underneath
2 this road -- underneath this overpass here was a market, and right here,
3 in this area here, which I'm going to mark "P2," was an area where people
4 could collect water. This was an open area, easy to see from several of
5 the Serb positions. Sniping occurred from up here, in that location, and
6 shelling came in from various areas.
7 Q. And could you move on, please, then to the other location that you
8 were going to mark, and we'll go for P3 for that, I think. No. P2A,
9 please, because it will keep within the batch.
10 A. That would be in the Ciglane apartment complex, the picture we
11 looked at before, picture 79, which was right here, P2A. Then this
12 picture, as marked -- as I showed the Court, on Marsala Tita.
13 Q. Make that P2B, please, if you would.
14 A. Okay. This picture number 81 was taken at the same location.
15 Picture 82 was taken at picture P2 position, at the marketplace.
16 Q. And when was that particular photograph taken?
17 A. This was July.
18 Q. Of which year?
19 A. 1992.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. October 1992 I photographed this man, who I spoke to extensively,
22 over a period of a few weeks. He was collecting water for people that
23 couldn't get out of their apartments, other geriatrics who lived in the
24 apartment complex near him. He was later killed by a shell.
25 Q. And where was that location?
1 A. That's in P2B.
2 Q. P2B. When did you take that particular photograph, Mr. Ashton?
3 A. October 1992.
4 Q. Now, sir, as regards the photographs taken in July of 1992 that
5 you've referred to, did those water points remain at those locations after
6 that date? In other words, were they still collecting water in those
7 places in 1993 or beyond?
8 A. Yes, indeed. That location was a primary collection point for
9 water. Water did not reach the city, but it reached certain points in the
10 city when it was turned on, so people had to go to specific points to get
11 the water, and that was one point where everyone had to go.
12 Q. Mr. Ashton, the gentleman who appeared in the last of that
13 particular group of photographs, did you remember any particular encounter
14 with him in October of 1992, or a conversation?
15 A. Yes, I did. He was a professor, retired professor, and we sat one
16 day outside the Presidency, just down the street from P2, very close to
17 that position, P2B, I'm sorry. And a shelling began in the area. People
18 began running for cover and getting into doorways, and I got up and asked
19 him to accompany me to safety of a nearby building, and he said to me that
20 he was old and that --
21 Q. If I may interrupt you. Do you remember the exact words he said
22 just as if in quotations? Can you remember his words?
23 A. I can't recall it right now. I just remember him telling me --
24 smiling at me and telling me that he was an old man and he didn't have any
25 reason to fear or run or hide from this situation and that they would
1 inevitably kill him anyway. He almost seemed to be able to forecast the
2 future for himself.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Could we move to the next --
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. BLAXILL:
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Could you move to the next batch of
7 photographs, if you would, please.
8 A. 1285. In the background you'll see the grain elevators for the
9 bakery, where the bakery compound in Sarajevo was located. Every day
10 people would line up outside this bakery to buy bread. The bakery was in
11 plain view of the area above Grbavica. It was consistently targeted.
12 There were a large number of casualties in this area. This particular
13 incident, a shell landed close by the bakery and set a group of small
14 shops ablaze. The fire department responded despite the fact the shells
15 continued to come down.
16 Q. And when did you take that photograph?
17 A. That was in October of 1992.
18 Q. I'm sorry. I had better repeat, because I didn't have the
19 microphone on. My question was, yes, when did you take the photograph?
20 And I'm sorry, I didn't hear your response.
21 A. October of 1992.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. This incident was very close to the headquarters of the United
24 Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, United Nations Protection Force
25 determined the shelling did come indeed from Grbavica.
1 Q. And did you, on a subsequent occasion, have call to discuss that
2 with anyone from the Bosnian Serb forces, from the VRS?
3 A. This particular incident, no, I did not. In conversations with
4 VRS soldiers, they admitted that they shelled certain areas of the city,
5 but we didn't go into specifics about the bakery.
6 Q. Not in respect of that particular occasion, did you ever discuss
7 the bakery with Serb soldiers at any time, to your recollection?
8 A. I did with one, but I can't remember what the conversation was
9 about. We were talking about water lines, the bakery, the high number of
11 Q. And when was that?
12 A. That was in 1993, but I can't recollect exactly when that
13 conversation took place. It was with someone in Grbavica, on the hill by
14 the checkpoint, when I went to take some medicine to one of the soldiers.
15 Q. Could you turn to the next photograph, please. And that
16 photograph is what, sir?
17 A. This is the same location that we just saw in the preceding
19 Q. And at the same time?
20 A. At the same time, that is correct. October 1993.
21 Q. And would you turn the page, please. We've completed those
22 photographs. Would you care to mark on the map with "P3" where that
23 location is.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. Could we now turn back to the photographs and move to
1 the next, starting with the number 1292. And would you please tell us
2 where that was and what date the photograph was taken.
3 A. Yes. This was also very close to the bakery, same area of Novo
4 Sarajevo, and it was in December of 1992. There was a mortar attack. I
5 was riding in an UNPROFOR vehicle and asked to get out, because I saw that
6 somebody on the steps was wounded. The shell exploded near our vehicle.
7 We were coming from the angle that you see the photograph. We stopped at
8 that point. I got out, made the photograph, saw that there was someone
9 wounded on the front step of the building. I ran over to assist, after
10 taking another photograph, and found a dead woman between the two vehicles
11 that were burning, but could not recover her.
12 Q. What were the man and the woman wearing, in terms of clothing?
13 A. They were civilians. The man was an old man and the woman was a
14 young woman.
15 Q. So could you please now mark that one on the map as "P4."
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Mr. Ashton, could you move to the next photograph. Is that a
18 photograph of the same location and time?
19 A. Yes. This is a photograph of the same location, at the same time.
20 Q. Thank you. Could we move on to the next, please. Can you please
21 tell us what those photographs depict.
22 A. Photograph 1300 is a picture of the State Hospital in December of
24 Q. And what part of Sarajevo does that side of the hospital face?
25 A. That side faces Grbavica.
1 Q. Could you move to the next photograph. And what does that depict?
2 A. This is one of the rooms of the hospital. You look straight out
3 over Grbavica. Trebevic would be -- Mount Trebevic would be to your left,
4 the Jewish cemetery would be to your left.
5 Q. And with respect to that particular scene of damage, did you
6 personally witness how that happened?
7 A. That particular impact, no, I did not.
8 Q. Could you perhaps, then, move on to the next photograph. And can
9 you say, as well, whether all these are contemporaneous photographs or
10 taken at different times?
11 A. They were taken at different times but within a few days of each
12 other. They were very closely --
13 Q. And over what period datewise would that be, roughly?
14 A. November -- October, November, December, in that area.
15 Q. Of?
16 A. 1992.
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 A. This was before more extensive damage was done to the hospital in
19 later shellings.
20 Q. And so I think at this point would you just like to move on
21 through those photographs and just very briefly say what they depict.
22 A. Yes. Each photograph depicts the damage to the side of the
23 hospital facing Grbavica in these particular cases, where shells were
24 fired, tank shells were fired into the hospital. That's the last one of
25 the images I have here.
1 Q. Did you at any time witness the source of damage of that type to
2 the State Hospital?
3 A. Yes, I did, on several occasions there were -- when I was in the
4 hospital, this hospital was shelled.
5 Q. And did you actually witness the source of the shelling?
6 A. I was able to determine from where I was located in the hospital,
7 in the fourth floor, at one point, that the shells were coming from a long
8 distance away and striking the east side of the hospital, and again, one
9 day when I was up on the 12th floor, the front of the hospital was hit,
10 and I went down to a lower floor, and I could ascertain the next shell was
11 fired, which went right past the hospital and hit the hill behind the
12 hospital, was fired by a tank at the top of Grbavica, which I identified
13 in yesterday's testimony.
14 Q. And how did you ascertain that that was a tank firing from that
16 A. Because that was one of the first positions that I looked at
17 through my camera lens when I went to try to find out where it was coming
18 from. There were two places I would have looked. One was above the
19 Jewish cemetery, where I had seen activity before, in that particular
20 location. And when I looked through the camera lens, I had a telephoto
21 lens on the camera, I saw tank in action. By the way, that was in 1993.
22 Q. Did you see any other signs of gunfire, perhaps, say, at night or
23 something, again when you were in the hospital?
24 A. Yes. Frequently I could see the flash, and we were hit by what
25 appeared to be the 12-millimetre rounds, 50-calibre size round and they
1 would come from different several different locations on hills above the
2 Jewish cemetery from the top of the hill at Grbavica and some would come
3 from lower positions down in Grbavica up towards the hospital.
4 Q. And you say "frequently." Can you give any idea how often you saw
5 that and during which sort of date period?
6 A. Yes. In July of 1992, again October through December of 1992, and
7 periodically throughout 1993/1994 and 1995, as late as 1995.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Could you please move to the next batch of
9 photographs. Oh, I'm sorry. Would you firstly mark that on the map with
11 A. [Marks] In the next series of photographs, 1319, you'll see a
12 house on fire. The Jewish cemetery is visible in the lower -- in the
13 upper left-hand corner of the picture. This particular incident I
14 witnessed again from the same tank position early, around mid-afternoon,
15 that the tank began firing from the top of the hill at Grbavica, near the
16 monument, near the Partizan Monument. It was very clearly visible to the
17 city of Sarajevo. It was out in the open. It continuously fired into
18 that neighbourhood, striking that house and other houses around it. The
19 house caught fire, and I photographed it for several hours as it burned.
20 The following day I went to the community to see the damage for myself and
21 met some of the citizens in the community, and they expressed anger
22 because there was no military activity in that community at that time.
23 Q. And did you see any incidents of tank fire from the location you
24 described on other occasions?
25 A. Later that night, that same night, there was an exchange of fire.
1 The tank fired down into that same area, but only higher up, along the
2 edge of the Jewish cemetery, and at that point I saw tracers going back in
3 the direction of the tank, but it was small-arms fire. And the tank fired
4 five consecutive rounds very quickly.
5 Q. And when did that happen, sir?
6 A. That was in September of 1992.
7 Q. And can you tell us with any more specificity when you took the
8 photograph that is in the album?
9 A. I believe this is around the 20th, 21st of September.
10 Q. Of 1992?
11 A. 1992, yes. It was the day before, actually, two days before the
12 shelling that brought so many wounded into the hospital.
13 Q. Mr. Ashton, did you, when you went to that location, did you look
14 to see if there was indeed anything military near those houses?
15 A. Yes, I did. Well, I didn't look specifically for any military
16 presence, but when I arrived there was no -- I had been told that
17 somewhere in the proximity of the Jewish cemetery was the Bosnian front
18 lines. When I went past that area about 150 metres, I was stopped by a
19 Bosnian soldier, who expressed to me that further up was the front line
20 and I couldn't the go there, but it was not anywhere close to that house.
21 And as I explained, the neighbours in that community expressed anger that
22 that community has been shelled.
23 Q. Could we then move, if you please, to the map. Would you just
24 make a mark where that location is, P5 - P6, I'm sorry.
25 A. I can't recall, actually, the actual street that I was driving on,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 but I'm going to mark the approximate area.
2 Q. Thank you. Would you please move to the next photograph, the next
3 set. Can you please describe that photograph and say where that is and
4 when you took that photograph.
5 A. I was in the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for
6 Refugees on the first floor of the PTT when a barrage of heavy shells
7 began striking in Novo Sarajevo. The attack went on for about 45
8 minutes. These were artillery rounds. They were not mortars, as they
9 took a long time to arrive after the thump and the whistle coming in would
10 indicate. I do not know the exact direction they came from, but this was
11 one example of the so-called iron cross. They came up the street one by
12 one by one, all way up to the PTT, and then sporadic shells left and
13 right. And again, this pattern occurred three times.
14 Q. And when was that photograph taken, sir?
15 A. September of 1992.
16 Q. Can you give an indication of when in September?
17 A. It had to be after -- this was around the 23rd also, the 21st to
18 the 28th of September, because I was out of Sarajevo and had just
19 returned. That's why I was in that office that day.
20 Q. Did you ever discuss that with any contact of yours on the Serb
21 side, as it were?
22 A. Later, as I mentioned in yesterday's testimony, I had spoken to
23 Indic about this, but it was this particular incident that I brought up
24 with the Serb logistics officer in Rhein-Main, who introduced me to this
25 term, the iron cross.
1 Q. Could you now, then, please, mark the map with the location that
2 you photographed.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please do that on the ELMO so that we can
4 follow it.
5 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.
6 A. This is P7?
7 MR. BLAXILL:
8 Q. Yes, please, P7.
9 A. Okay. Can you see -- yes, you can see it here. I've marked all
10 the way from here to here, was the general area of the main attack.
11 Q. Yes, could you move to the next photograph, please. I think it
12 will be number 1352 and 1353.
13 A. There were casualties in this attack, by the way.
14 Q. If you wish to describe -- you mean, you mentioned casualties.
15 Can you give an indication of numbers, and were these civilian casualties
16 or military people?
17 A. They were civilians walking on that boulevard on the main street
18 there. They were taken to State Hospital. Three of them were taken to
19 State Hospital and two, I heard, were taken to Kosevo Hospital. The State
20 Hospital casualties were minor wounds, the Kosevo Hospital casualties were
21 serious wounds.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Would you move on to the next photograph
23 set, please, which I believe is 1352 and 1353?
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt. 1353 does not follow 1352, as
25 you've just indicated. The next one is 1389, as far as I can see. That's
1 also how it is indicated on the first page of this series.
2 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour. Sorry. It is 1352 and 1389. I'm
3 sorry. That is quite correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. Thank you.
5 MR. BLAXILL:
6 Q. Yes, Mr. Ashton. Could you please state what is depicted in that
7 next set of two photographs and say also when those photographs were
9 A. Okay. It's not on the screen, but 1352, 1389, and 1392 were all
10 taken on September 25th, 1992. This is the morning I described in
11 yesterday's testimony as the morning the hospital was shelled. The area
12 outside the hospital was heavily shelled from the Presidency up to Tito
13 barracks. There were as many as 40 casualties brought into the State
14 Hospital and others taken up to Kosevo Hospital. One of the victims in
15 this picture, Sandra, she was brought into the emergency room. I spoke to
16 her. She spoke English. When she told me that she and her boyfriend went
17 out to help a woman wounded by the first shell, there was a brief pause
18 and then the second shell exploded, wounding both of them. She remembered
19 the explosion, but she didn't remember anything after that. Her
20 boyfriend, Svetozar, was pictured in photograph 1392, expressed to me that
21 he held her hand as they laid on the ground and thought that this would be
22 the end, that they were going to die, but they were rescued by a Bosnian
23 policeman and brought to the hospital. I interviewed several of the
24 patients that were less seriously wounded, to find out that they had been
25 waiting for a bus and a shell landed right in the area of the crowd.
1 Q. Mr. Ashton, were these people civilians?
2 A. They were all civilians.
3 Q. Thank you. Could we move -- would you please mark that as "P8"
4 and then move to the next photographic entry.
5 A. Okay. Since I was not where the victims were wounded, and this
6 was taken in the State Hospital, we already have that marked on the map.
7 Do you still want me to mark P8 next to that or just use the same --
8 Q. No, as we have already to State Hospital --
9 A. Established.
10 Q. Please move on to the next photographs, if you would.
11 A. This young man, Mirza, was brought into the hospital on September
12 22nd, the day before Sandra arrived. He was brought in around 4.00 in the
13 afternoon. It was a clear day, bright day. He and a group of other
14 children were playing in Novo grad, in Alipasino Polje, a section of
15 Sarajevo, which I will go ahead and mark on the map as "P8."
16 Q. And how old was the young man in question?
17 A. Nine years old, I believe, or ten. I can't recall exactly here.
18 His father was a former diplomat. He was playing with some other
19 children, a group of children, and there was another group of children
20 about ten to fifteen metres away from them. The father was only a few
21 metres from him. His uncle was a few more metres from him when the shell
22 landed. The kids were all playing, he said. There was laughter, they
23 were joking, and suddenly there was this terrific bang and silence as he
24 recounted the incident. When he was brought in, he was conscious and
25 talking but he went into a deep state of shock because he lost a lot of
1 blood from his leg wound. There was a young girl about 6 years old who I
2 started treating. She had a hole in her arm. She didn't speak any
3 English, but to my surprise, Mirza spoke fluent English. And I was able
4 to learn more about the incident after -- two days later, after he was on
5 the road to recovery. However, at this time the city had been shut off by
6 the Bosnian Serbs. The medical supplies could not get into the city. The
7 airport was being held up. The UN could not get the supplies in.
8 Antibiotics were not available at the hospital and because we didn't have
9 antibiotics for post-surgical procedures, the next morning the boy got a
10 serious infection in the leg and we amputated the leg the following day.
11 Q. And where did you take that photograph? Was that in State
13 A. Yes. That was taken in the State Hospital.
14 Q. Could you move, then, to the next photo set, Mr. Ashton. Can you
15 say again where and when that photograph was taken?
16 A. This photograph was taken in October 1992.
17 Q. And where was that photograph taken?
18 A. This was also taken at the State Hospital.
19 Q. And that, I believe, is photograph -- would the ERN number that
20 ends 1375; is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Do you know anything further about that particular person?
23 A. Yes. She was in her home when the shell struck the house. There
24 was a fire, and also she found that when she tried to get out she couldn't
25 move. But she was rescued. She had lost her leg. She had considerable
1 damage and what was left had to be cut off.
2 Q. Could I ask you to move, please, to the next photograph. I
3 believe the number is 1376. Can you say when and where that was taken?
4 A. This again was October 1992, at Kosevo Hospital centre, in the
5 Pediatric ward, one of dozens of children wounded in the ward. She was
6 playing and a shell landed and severed her spinal cord.
7 Q. And did you ascertain how old --
8 A. 15, I believe.
9 Q. Do you know whether she recovered from that injury?
10 A. She had serious health problems due to the injury, and she was
11 paralysed for life, but she did eventually leave the hospital after
12 several months.
13 Q. And how did you ascertain that?
14 A. I visited the hospital regularly, and especially in the pediatric
16 Q. Could you move, please, to the next photograph, 1383 -- I'm
17 sorry. 1384. I'm sorry, 1383.
18 A. This photograph is in the State Hospital. This victim was brought
19 in in the early evening. He had been shot by a sniper near the
20 Presidency. He died about 15 minutes into this procedure.
21 Q. Were you able to ascertain if he was a civilian person or a
22 military person?
23 A. He was a civilian. He was on his way home.
24 Q. And what was the date of that photograph, sir?
25 A. October of 1992.
1 Q. Can I ask you to move to the photograph 1384.
2 A. This photograph was taken near the end of September of 1992 or the
3 first few days of October 1992. It was early in the morning. I went up
4 to Kosevo Hospital centre about 9.00, and he had been shot two times, once
5 after he fell, one bullet went through his hand and completely severed his
6 hand. There was a shell blast, and a witness said it was the shell that
7 did the damage, but he claimed it was the bullet, so I couldn't determine
8 what caused the -- but it was -- there were incidents going on of sniping
9 and shelling at the same time that this particular man was wounded.
10 Q. Did you ascertain where the wounds were allegedly sustained?
11 Whereabouts was he at the time?
12 A. He was not very far from the hospital centre, but I don't know
13 exactly where he was.
14 Q. And did you manage to find out what he had been doing at the time?
15 A. He was a worker, city worker.
16 Q. A city worker. By that, do you mean it was a civilian person?
17 A. Yes, it was a civilian person. He was doing maintenance work or
18 cleaning work of some kind, he said.
19 Q. And I think you've made reference to the hospital. Does that mean
20 he was near Kosevo Hospital?
21 A. Yes, he was very close to Kosevo Hospital.
22 Q. Could we move to the next photograph, 1385, please.
23 A. Did you want me to mark Kosevo Hospital centre on this map, by the
25 Q. Yes. Could you take the next number? I think it's P --
1 A. 9.
2 Q. -- 9, and just mark Kosevo Hospital for us.
3 A. [Marks] This is 1385; correct?
4 Q. Yes, please.
5 A. This was in October of 1992. There had been a shelling near the
6 Tito barracks, where this woman was running across the street. A mortar
7 shell or artillery shell landed. I was not aware of the type of shell
8 because I was not at that incident. I could hear the thumps near the
9 hospital, and she was brought in moments later after the shelling began.
10 Q. So from what you're saying, do we assume that photo was taken at
11 State Hospital?
12 A. It was taken at State Hospital, and she said she was wounded
13 crossing the street next to Tito barracks.
14 Q. Were you given sufficient information -- sorry. Were you able to
15 know enough of the location to be able to mark the map?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please do so, "P10."
18 A. P10.
19 Q. Thank you. And then the final photograph, if you please, 1388.
20 Can you describe when that was taken and circumstances it depicts?
21 A. On the 25th of September, 1992, when the heavy shelling took place
22 outside the hospital and the shells had hit the hospital, these victims
23 were brought in. It is the woman who is lying here with her face covered
24 who told me that they were waiting for a bus. She gave me a detailed
25 description of the situation, told me that several people who were in the
1 room, in this emergency room around her, were wounded at the same time.
2 As I said, we had over 40 casualties at this time from this particular
3 shelling. We had victims in this particular incident lined up in the hall
4 and in other rooms, because we didn't have enough medical staff to do
5 triage. One woman was brought in in such bad condition. She was moved
6 aside, where she died, where I witnessed her death.
7 Q. And of that number of people, are you aware of the number of
8 fatalities and the number of injured, the ratio in that particular
10 A. In the incident, I can't recall right now the number of fatalities
11 in that -- I recorded that in my journal, but I believe there were three,
12 at least three, that I knew of. One, as I said, I witnessed.
13 Q. They were people waiting for a bus on that date. Does that bear
14 relation to the photograph 1352, the lady named, you called Sandra Putic,
15 I believe, or a name like it?
16 A. That is correct. It was that same day.
17 Q. And --
18 A. The same time, within 15 minutes, we received all of these
20 Q. And just finally, you've made reference to the hospital. Would
21 you just confirm which hospital that was?
22 A. This is State Hospital, and before you proceed, I would like to go
23 back to one picture and add information on Mirza's picture.
24 Q. Yes, please do, Mr. Ashton. Are you referring to photograph 1354?
25 A. 1354 and 1355. I was beginning to mention that Mirza's uncle and
1 father were standing nearby. I described the little girl was wounded, and
2 other children were wounded. We had a 7-year-old boy come in from this
3 particular shelling. But Mirza was laying on the gurney conscious when he
4 came in, and his father was brought in, completely mutilated on a
5 stretcher. The boy saw it. And this is when he deteriorated very
6 quickly, and of course because of blood loss he went into a state of shock
7 as well. But his uncle was killed also in this shelling.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton.
9 MR. BLAXILL: That concludes my questions relating to the
10 photographs. Thank you. I have one very quick topic which will fit
11 before 11.00, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That will conclude your examination-in-chief?
13 MR. BLAXILL: I will have one further topic after the break, if I
14 may, and it will not be for long, I promise that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would it be possible to have the break a bit
16 later, perhaps, and continue -- I don't know how much time it would take.
17 If we would finish, say, at 5 minutes past 11.00, if that would
18 conclude --
19 MR. BLAXILL: That wouldn't take me to the finish of the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then you may cover the topic you have in mind
22 at this moment.
23 MR. BLAXILL: And I would appreciate the break for my throat.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Ashton, there's just one point I would like to bring up with
2 you, and that is this: On your visits to the office of Major Indic in
3 Lukavica, did you ever observe the presence of receiving equipment for
4 broadcasts or the presence of television sets, either in the office or
6 A. I did see a satellite -- a series of satellite antennas.
7 Q. And where were they located?
8 A. Outside, to the left side of the entrance of the building where
9 Indic's office was located. There were television sets in the office. At
10 one time there was CNN. I do not know if it was a video recording or if
11 it was live satellite feed.
12 Q. Do you recall when you saw this CNN on the television?
13 A. This was sometime in 1993. To be precise, I could not pinpoint
15 Q. Did you ever discuss, as it were, media coverage of anything with
17 A. A couple of times, because he knew that formerly I had been a
18 photo journalist.
19 Q. And did Major Indic give any indication to you that he was aware
20 of media broadcasts regarding events in Sarajevo?
21 A. Yes, he was aware, and there were two sides to this, in his view.
22 One was that the Serbs had been improperly represented by the media, but
23 on the other hand, he welcomed the media to come and film on their side.
24 As I know, Christiane Amanpour from CNN interviewed General Galic on more
25 than one occasion and interviewed people in Lukavica barracks as well.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Do you recall the piece of CNN broadcast
2 or tape that you saw, do you recall what it was about?
3 A. No. It was not involving Sarajevo; it was involving -- it was
4 just a general news broadcast. I wasn't paying much attention to it.
5 MR. BLAXILL: That concludes the topic, Your Honours, so we are
6 just approaching 11.00.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until 11.30.
8 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we bring
11 in the witness, if I can address the Court, please. I just have a
12 practical suggestion for the future. From now on, we will be referring
13 ourselves frequently to the exhibits. In order to avoid mistakes, could
14 the registrar perhaps give the parties, after each hearing, a list on the
15 current state of exhibits so that we could orient ourselves without
16 difficulty? Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You would like to comment on that? Because as far as
18 I understand, quite frequently such lists will be distributed. I don't
19 know whether it should be on an every-day basis, but could you please
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I believe my colleagues already
22 stressed at the TMM meeting that normally we distribute this list every
23 two weeks.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's any specific need, meanwhile, to
25 have it more frequently, you can apply for it. So if there are specific
1 reasons for that. But as a basis, I would say we stick to the scheme as
2 indicated by the Registry. Thank you.
3 Mr. Blaxill, you then may proceed after the witness has been
4 brought in.
5 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Mr. Ashton.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 MR. BLAXILL:
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
9 Mr. Ashton, you will perhaps recall that I made reference to, as
10 it were, the psychological effects on the civilians in Sarajevo of the
11 shelling and sniping. So do you recall someone by the name of Vanessa,
12 Vanessa, I believe, Dusejo or a name like that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall ever having a specific conversation with her on that
16 A. Yes, I do. I had several conversations with her on a daily basis.
17 Q. Who was she?
18 A. She was a medical student, the daughter of a doctor at one of the
19 hospitals in Sarajevo.
20 Q. And having such conversations with her, do you recall any
21 particular words she may have used describing her feelings on that
23 A. Yes. When I first met Vanessa, she was 19 years old at the time
24 and working as a volunteer in the hospital. She told me that she had
25 hoped that the Serbs would put down their weapons and come back to
1 Sarajevo. She expressed that many of the young people of Sarajevo didn't
2 believe this was happening and that they would forgive the Serbs if they
3 would come back and try to work out some kind of a government where
4 everyone would live together in a democracy.
5 Q. Did she offer -- sorry. Did she offer any comment as to her
6 reactions to the sniping or the shelling of the city?
7 A. Later she did. She was in a state of shock about it, of course.
8 It was very, very difficult for her. Again, I mean, I was very surprised
9 that she said she could forgive. But as time went on, her reaction
10 changed, like so many other young people that I talked to there, she had
11 the very same psychological changes that came with long-term exposure to
12 trauma and violence.
13 Q. Do you recall, though, any specific remarks she made to you as to
14 her feelings about, say, the sniping, the purpose of it?
15 A. To terrorize and humiliate the population. She was very specific
16 about that. She felt that this was a way that the Serbs were trying to
17 get their point across.
18 Q. Do you recall any of the words that she actually to you used at
20 A. I can't remember now the comment. I do have -- that was in one of
21 my journals, because I wrote down remarks that she and others made at that
23 Q. And about when was that conversation you had with her on that
25 A. Well, the first conversation, in reference to laying down the
1 weapons and coming back, if the Serbs would just lay down their weapons
2 and come back, and the forgiveness was early. That was in July.
3 Q. I'm sorry. The later conversations, particularly on the subject
4 of sniping and things of that nature, when did that occur?
5 A. October, November, in that area.
6 Q. Did you have any such conversations with her after that date?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, if I may intervene. No year was
9 mentioned,, not in respect of July, October, November.
10 MR. BLAXILL: My omission. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Which year?
12 A. July 1992, in reference to the first statement, and in reference
13 to her later statements, October, November 1992 as well.
14 Q. Now, did you have any such kind of conversations with her or with
15 other people during the course of 1993 and the first half of 1994?
16 A. Yes. With several people, and the results were much the same from
17 different people that this was active terrorism, it was an act of horror.
18 They wanted to horrify the people, they wanted to destroy us. They
19 specifically pointed out that they were civilians. They had nothing to do
20 with this war, they wanted nothing to do with this war. This was a
21 consistent conversation I had with many people. It was the same
22 conversation over and over and over again. People questioned why, and why
23 the International Community was not helping or intervening, because there
24 were so many civilians being killed.
25 Q. Did you see any kind of -- could you assess the level -- you've
1 used the word "terror." What sort of level of fear, personal fear, did
2 people express to you as time went by?
3 A. Well, they all felt that at some point they were going to be
4 killed. They felt that there was no hope. All hope had been given up for
5 a lot of the people there, and there was just a sense of complete
6 abandonment. And the psychology of the people was one of deep depression,
7 animosity, not just towards the Serbs but towards the world, for not
8 helping them. There were people there who threatened suicide to me and to
9 other UN officials at UNHCR.
10 Q. During that time, you've referred to threatened suicide. Did you
11 have any knowledge of what the suicide rate was in the city or whether it
12 varied during the course of late 1992 and through 1993?
13 A. To be perfectly frank about the suicide rate, it was very
14 difficult to ascertain a figure or a general idea. The problem is the
15 hospitals reported that people were increasingly committing suicide. I
16 didn't see anyone in particular who did it, but I heard people threaten to
17 do it. But the problem that I did see was people that I encountered every
18 day or two and talked to in the streets, slowing down, I asked them, "Why
19 aren't you protecting yourself?" And they were saying, "There's no reason
20 to run, because you're going to die." There was a complete change of
21 attitude of self-preservation. That deteriorated, and you could see that
22 very clearly. That was not something that was there when I first arrived,
23 the first year practically. It was within a year the whole scenario
24 changed with everyone that I knew that was local and who could not get out
25 of the city.
1 Q. Did you notice any particular physical effects that were manifest
2 in the people as they were living under these circumstances?
3 A. Increased demand for alcohol, a demand for narcotic drugs, to help
4 them through the day. There was a problem, obviously, of food shortages,
5 because the Serbs constantly cut the city off from the airport, cut the UN
6 convoys off, so there was a very small amount of food for most people.
7 And people were suffering from malnutrition. Many people, especially
8 geriatrics that I talked to, because I visited many, many apartments where
9 people were identified to me, in my organisation, who could not get out or
10 were afraid to get out. When we took medicine to these people, they told
11 us they were too frightened to go out and some of them had not been out in
12 a month, and if someone who they knew or a relative had been killed or
13 wounded, they would be in the apartment for a period of two or three weeks
14 at a time with nothing.
15 Q. What was the attitude of parents towards their children and the
16 safety of their children?
17 A. At first the parents were very, very cautious of children. I saw
18 a lot of children in Novo Sarajevo playing in the streets, but as soon as
19 a shell would land, the children would be herded in, parents would run
20 out, pull the kids in. But they weren't allowed to play outside so much.
21 However, later on there were more and more children outside. But the
22 children became very hostile. They were very -- they constantly -- the
23 boys started to play war, the girls started to become very frightened and
24 intimidated. And I talked to some young children who told me that they
25 were -- couldn't live confined in their homes any more. Many of them had
1 seen mates die or wounded, and they were scared they were going to die.
2 They were very frightened they were going to die. And I heard many
3 comments that would normally be made by an adult made by children as young
4 as 6 and 7 years old about the international community not doing anything
5 to help. These are conditions indicative to trauma.
6 Q. Mr. Ashton, I just have two or three minor points now to ask you,
7 if I may. Firstly, did you have contact with the civil protection people
8 within Sarajevo who did that work?
9 A. Yes. On a daily basis.
10 Q. Can you answer me just one question in respect of those people:
11 Were those people ever observed by you to be carrying arms or appear to be
12 in military equipment and apparel?
13 A. No. I didn't see any of the civil protection units carrying
14 arms. I encountered them at certain checkpoints throughout the city. I
15 conferred with them. There were often Sarajevo city police officers who I
16 got to know quite well and visited their police headquarters in different
17 locations of the city who had occasionally a sidearm or an AK-47, but the
18 civil personnel did not carry weapons that I saw.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. The next question I have is: In relation to the
20 types of -- you've referred to certain ammunition used. Was ever there
21 any kind of ammunition that had an incendiary effect or a light-giving
22 effect when it was fired?
23 A. Yes. On only a few occasions that I witnessed incendiary shells
24 were fired into apartment blocks in the centre of Sarajevo and in Trg
25 Heroje section of the city, when firemen attempted to extinguish these
1 fires, they could not do it. The shells would continue to burn with
2 water, but when the shells struck, they sent out a large plume of bright
3 white smoke and flaming debris, and the intensity of light within the area
4 of the shell impact lasted for quite some time consistent with phosphorus
6 Q. And you say on a few occasions you witnessed these. Can you tell
7 me when those occasions were, the month and the year?
8 A. September, October, December of 1993. And I believe I saw an
9 incident in July, but I can't recall exactly if it was in that area or the
10 September area. But it was still warm then. I remember that.
11 Q. By July, do you mean -- which year?
12 A. 1992.
13 Q. 1992.
14 A. All of these dates were in 1992. I did not see any --
15 Q. May I stop you one moment, sir? You previously responded
16 "September, October, December of 1993."
17 A. Correction. It was 1992. I did not see any of these incidents in
18 1993. I saw them in late 1992, during the time of October -- December,
19 October, November.
20 Q. Mr. Ashton, I've asked you about access to the media in Lukavica.
21 Did you ever visit or observe any media presence in Pale when you were
22 visiting there?
23 A. Yes. There was a media centre there. I went to visit it once.
24 Q. And how effective did you consider that to be? What was there?
25 A. The woman I met there was very polite. She said that journalists
1 frequently came, and she was more than willing to assist and give the
2 history of the Serb Republic from their point of view.
3 Q. Did you, with your experience of the media world, consider that it
4 was -- it appeared effective and gave them good access to media reporting?
5 A. Yes. It seemed -- hold on. It seemed that they had a
6 well-organised media centre, and they gave access to journalists who
7 wanted it. There were some fears in Sarajevo among the journalists that
8 Serbs would mistreat the journalist, but as some international journalists
9 went to Pale, they found that their treatment was hospitable, but they
10 would complain a lot about just being subjected to propaganda, but that
11 was all that I ever heard from journalists who I talked to from ABC News,
12 Sky News, CNN.
13 Q. Mr. Ashton, if I can turn your attention now to one feature on the
14 map on which you placed a number of markings and your original comments.
15 There is a marking in blue, a dotted blue line. Could you just explain
16 to the Chamber, please, what that represents.
17 A. The dotted blue line is the line that I frequently travelled on a
18 daily basis into and out of the city of Sarajevo to Lukavica, to Pale, to
19 Grbavica, and to Central Bosnia.
20 Q. And one final question, please, Mr. Ashton. You started your
21 evidence informing the Chamber of your experiences of a number of war
22 zones or conflicts. From your experiences, can you offer a final comment
23 to the Chamber that compares what you witnessed in Sarajevo and its impact
24 on civilians with what you witnessed in those other conflicts and the
25 impact on the civilians there?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. The unfortunate reality is that everywhere I have been, in
2 Lebanon, Ethiopia, Morocco, Algeria, Afghanistan, civilians have had
3 terrible trauma because of the conflicts, but the majority of conflicts
4 that I visited were not conflicts where civilians were deliberately
5 targeted on a daily basis. In the case of the countries I've previously
6 mentioned, before I arrived in Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia,
7 civilians were pretty much free to move, free to come, free to leave. In
8 the case of Yugoslavia, immediately I was aware in Croatia and Bosnia of
9 the intense destruction of civilians, civilian targets, the deliberate
10 destruction of individual homes belonging to one ethnic group or another,
11 which I did not see in other conflicts. The level of violence towards
12 civilians in Bosnia, particularly in Sarajevo and other areas of Bosnia I
13 visited, was, in my opinion, beyond reason, beyond belief for me, and for
14 many of my media colleagues, before I became a humanitarian, I talked to
15 many journalists about this, and we were all shocked by the amount of
16 civilian damage.
17 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. Ashton.
18 Your Honours, I thank you, particularly for the indulgence and
19 time. That concludes the examination-in-chief.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.
21 I'd like to give my colleagues -- before I give the opportunity to
22 the Defence to cross-examine the witness, are there any questions at this
23 moment to be put?
24 I would like to put one question to you at this very moment,
25 Mr. Ashton. During your testimony, you were asked about your conversation
1 with Major Indic, and you mentioned that you once put a question to him:
2 Why did you allow this to happen? And for one reason or another, finally
3 no answer was given by you on that issue. Could you please inform the
4 Chamber about the answer given by Major Indic on that question.
5 A. Indic responded with the answer that somewhat shocked me. It was
6 that the Muslims had to learn that they were under the Serb domination and
7 that the Serbs were the superior force in this area. He went on to tell
8 me that if they really wanted peace, they would lay down their weapons and
9 allow the government of Radovan Karadzic to return to Sarajevo. That's
10 the answer to the question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ashton.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We discussed yesterday that you would have a combined
14 cross-examination. Whom will start? Mr. Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to start,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ashton, if you allow me, I would like to
20 start out in French. First of all, thank you for coming here. You have
21 told us, the day before yesterday, I believe it was, that you had started
22 your training as military in the US Coast Guard.
23 A. Is that the question?
24 Q. I believe -- yes, I was just going to ask you to confirm this. Is
25 this exact?
1 A. I'm sorry. Yes, this is correct.
2 Q. I believe I heard you say that you had worked there as a military
3 staff. Is that correct?
4 A. Could you clarify that question and tell me where you're referring
5 to? You mean the Coast Guard or elsewhere?
6 Q. I'm going to try and be ever more clear. You did declare that in
7 June 1993 -- 1973, sorry, that you started on that first job, and was it
8 as military?
9 A. Yes. The US Coast Guard at that time was under the Department of
10 Transportation of the United States government. However, during wartime
11 the Coast Guard is under the United States Department of defence. At the
12 time I went into the Coast Guard during the Vietnam War, the Coast Guard
13 remained under the Department of Transportation, but we were trained
14 militarily by the Department of Defence because the Coast Guard maintained
15 the river patrol sector of the Vietnam rivers. The Coast Guard was a
16 major participant in the conflict in Vietnam.
17 Q. I haven't heard your answer. So you were a military person; yes
18 or no?
19 A. Technically, no. I was a member of the Department of
20 Transportation and technically yes, I was a member of the military because
21 we were trained as military.
22 Q. So am I correct to assume that your answer is yes and no?
23 A. My answer is yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much. You have told us that you have gone through
25 university training as well, more specifically, political history courses,
1 I believe, as well as the history of religions. Is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. In your capacity as a historian, could you tell the Court when the
4 peace treaty ending the Vietnam War was signed, where, and who were the
5 parties to that agreement?
6 A. President Nixon ordered the war ended in June of 1973. American
7 forces remained until 1974.
8 Q. I meant just the end of the war and the peace treaty, the signing
9 of the peace treaty. That was all my question was about?
10 A. In 1973, in Paris. It was signed with Henry Kissinger and the
11 foreign minister of Vietnam, I believe.
12 Q. My question was relating specifically to the date of the signing
13 and the parties, the signatories?
14 A. I do not recall that. At that time I was in the service.
15 Q. To jog your memory, it was on the 27th of June, 1973?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you stood up.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I wish to object to the
18 question, and indeed the line of questioning, for two reasons. Firstly,
19 the witness did not claim to be a historian. He explained that he had
20 taken some university subjects but had not taken a degree. Secondly,
21 relevance. One wonders what the history of the Vietnam War has to do with
22 the indictment. And I might add to that, I, for one, am uncertain if
23 there ever was a peace treaty signed in relation to the Vietnam war. But
24 my basic objection is relevance. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please explain the
1 question, especially the relevance of this.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll be glad to do it.
3 The relevance is as follows: This witness has said that he had extensive
4 knowledge of weapons, armaments, and so on and so forth. Since he had
5 learned about all this during the Vietnam war, where he was a member of a
6 special service force. I was just going to check whether during his
7 service the Vietnam War was still going on or not. It appeared to be to
8 be a very important point, to check the training of this gentleman. And
9 now we've found out that the gentleman doesn't seem to know when the peace
10 treaty was signed, and it seems to me to be an interesting point indeed.
11 There will be other similar questions pertaining to the gentleman's
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the objection is sustained, not
15 because the information you're seeking might be without any relevance, but
16 the way you are seeking this information is such that we touch upon a lot
17 of irrelevant details about the Vietnam War which will not help this Court
18 in making any decisions. You may proceed.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It is
20 nevertheless correct that you had the opportunity to specialise in these
21 two fields that I've just mentioned, that is to say, history of politics
22 and history of religions?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. You have just explained, as well as yesterday, something about the
25 technique, if my understanding is correct, this technique of the iron
1 cross, and you've mentioned that it was representative of the orthodox
2 cross. Was that your statement?
3 A. Yes, that was my statement.
4 Q. In your capacity as a witness who has some knowledge of the
5 history of religions, could you tell the Court what is the exact form of
6 so-called orthodox cross, and in what way can we distinguish various
7 orthodox crosses, the Greek, the Serb, the Russian orthodox cross, and so
9 A. Well, personally, I know what the orthodox cross looks like, but
10 it's irrelevant to this situation because this is what was told to me by
11 the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ashton, a question has been put to you, and
13 whether it's relevant or not, you have to answer the question, unless
14 there is any ruling of this Court whether it's upon any objection made by
15 the Prosecution or not, that you should not answer the question. But the
16 relevance of the question, the relevance of your knowledge, is not up to
17 you to decide at this moment.
18 THE WITNESS: I apologise to the Court. But the reason I made
19 that statement is simply that I was specific in my explanation that this
20 was the quote directly made to me, and that's the only thing that I had
21 said, and that's what I clearly represented in my statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is not a direct answer to
23 your question. You may, if you think it necessary, repeat the question,
24 but I'd like to remind you that the issue of relevance that has been
25 raised by the witness came into my mind as well. So would you please
1 consider that when you proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Chairman, I believe that
3 this question is indeed relevant, because in view of the witness's
4 capacity as an almost historian and an almost historian on religions, he
5 has an interest in this matter. I would like to reiterate my question.
6 Q. Could you or could you not make a drawing of such a cross and can
7 you tell us what the difference between the Greek orthodox and the Serb
8 orthodox cross is? And if you can't do it, just simply say so.
9 A. Well, in answer to this question, I recognise the orthodox cross.
10 My wife, as a Russian orthodox, my -- I've been -- I've seen the different
11 orthodox crosses in time, yes. What you want, I don't know, but I can
12 just tell you yes, I know what the orthodox crosses look like in general.
13 Q. Could you draw it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm perhaps going to ask you to do that at a later stage.
16 Coming back to the PTT incident that you've just mentioned with
17 reference to one of the photos that we had the opportunity to view, how
18 many shots were fired during that incident? Do you know that?
19 A. Yes. There were more than 40 rounds fire during that incident.
20 Q. When you talk about this iron cross technique, is it a matter of a
21 surface design of a cross or the design of the contours, the outline of
22 the contours of the cross?
23 A. That was never explained to me.
24 Q. In your capacity as a witness who has worked for military
25 administration, do you think that it is technically possible to design in
1 an urban area the form of a cross or any other complicated form of this
3 A. Yes, I do. If you're a good artilleryman, you can do it.
4 Q. So you can reply to this question: How many points of impact are
5 necessary in order to draw the shape of the orthodox cross?
6 A. That depends on the person who is firing the rounds. I do not
8 Q. No. The minimum number. How many minimum points would be needed
9 in order for that cross to be outlined?
10 A. I only know as how the procedure was explained to me by the
11 gentleman in Rhein-Main air force base, and then, once again, the
12 procedure was explained to me in Pale.
13 Q. So I take it that your answer is that you don't know.
14 A. I don't personally know, because I only know what I was told by
15 the two Serb gentlemen who told me about this procedure.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Now, I'd like to refer it another point in
17 your statement. You've mentioned that you came to Sarajevo in the
18 beginning of the summer, in June 1992, sometime around the 5th or the 6th,
19 via Zagreb or Split. Can you confirm that, please?
20 A. That is wrong. I arrived in July of 1992. I was briefed by UNHCR
21 in Zagreb. I travelled to Split and flew in on a United Nations flight
22 when the airport was opened by the United Nations at Sarajevo.
23 Q. I'm a bit irritated. Apparently there was a translation error
24 here. I did say July and not June 1992?
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I did refer to July, and the interpreter confirms that. You
3 arrived there as an independent, as a freelance journalist; is that
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. For what reason did you, as a freelance journalist, get in touch
7 with the representatives of the High Commission for the Refugees in
9 A. When I was in Austria, I met one former colleague of mine, a
10 friend, I should say, who was working for the United Nations in Vienna,
11 and he asked me if I would be interested in going to Bosnia to take some
12 photographs for UNHCR. He explained to me he could arrange this. I told
13 him that I was not interested because I did not do combat photography any
14 more. In a subsequent lunch, and after seeing Austrian television's
15 coverage of Sarajevo, I agreed to go for two days to Sarajevo and
16 photograph the conflict, and I called the editors of Time Magazine, the
17 photo editor of Time Magazine in New York, who advised me that their
18 photographer, Christopher Morris, needed to get out of Sarajevo. So I
19 went to Zagreb and made the arrangements, and one of the first photographs
20 I took in Sarajevo appeared in UNHCR's magazine, the first day I was
22 Q. As a consequence, if I understand you correctly, you worked
23 directly or indirectly for the High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR.
24 A. At the time I went in to Sarajevo, the first trip, I agreed to
25 take some photographs for them, but I did not work for them, and I gave
1 them several rolls of film of the logistics operation, and I sent other
2 rolls of film back to New York, to Time Magazine.
3 Q. You've just said, Mr. Ashton, that you had made the necessary
4 arrangements in Zagreb where other offices were locate as well with the
5 UNHCR people, and could you tell us what the details of those arrangements
7 A. Yes, because I chose to go in as a journalist, photo journalist,
8 and just give the film to UNHCR. I went to UNPROFOR and applied for press
9 credentials and got them. This allowed me to have assistance from United
10 Nations in transportation.
11 Q. Do I understand you correctly if I say that it is since you had
12 declared that you would submit the photos to the UNHCR, that you were
13 accredited by the UNPROFOR?
14 A. No, you are not correct to say that.
15 Q. Nevertheless, do I understand you correctly if I read in the
16 transcript that you had promised to the UNHCR that you would give them the
18 A. Yes. I told them I would give them pictures.
19 Q. On a contractual basis?
20 A. Negative.
21 Q. And who paid for the cost of your transport to Sarajevo?
22 A. I had my own photo agency in New York, International Images was
23 the name. I paid my own expenses for travel until I arrived in Split.
24 When I checked in with UNPROFOR there and showed them my UNPROFOR media
25 credentials, they checked me onto a flight.
1 Q. And what about your expenses in Sarajevo for this first period of
2 time in July until the 23rd of July, 1992? You paid for that yourself
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. You've mentioned, Mr. Ashton, that on the 22nd or the 23rd of
6 July, you were wounded by a bullet in Sarajevo. It is to this period of
7 time that I'll be referring now. I believe that you will be able to
8 confirm that.
9 A. July 23rd I was shot in the leg and the arm.
10 Q. If I've followed your statement correctly, you initially spent a
11 few days in Sarajevo and then you were sent to another hospital. Is that
13 A. In reference to my last answer, I want to refer to July 23rd,
14 1992, for the Court. And yes, that is correct. I spent ten days in
15 Sarajevo and then I was transferred to a hospital in Germany.
16 Q. You've just mentioned, Mr. Ashton, in reply to one of my first
17 questions, that you were not a member of the military. Let me put another
18 question to you. Today you are not a member of the military either; is
19 that correct?
20 A. I have not been a member of the military since 1975.
21 Q. But you have nevertheless declared that in your capacity as a
22 freelance journalist at the time, you had nevertheless been repatriated
23 somehow and sent to an American army hospital in Germany. I'm talking
24 about the principle. That was what my question was about. It was an
25 American army hospital in Germany; is that correct?
1 A. I asked -- I was told in Sarajevo, rather, that the doctors could
2 not treat my wound any further than they had. I met a French surgeon who
3 was working for UNPROFOR, who recommended, after seeing my wound, that I
4 leave for treatment, for proper treatment. I contacted UNHCR and UNPROFOR
5 officials and asked to be flown out on the next available flight, to
6 Zagreb. I found out that there was an American United Nations-marked
7 flight, under the United Nations' command, that had brought food in to
8 Sarajevo, going back to Germany. When I was taken to the airport, I asked
9 if I could take that flight, which had to be approved by the crew and
10 UNPROFOR, and when I arrived in Germany on that flight, to Rhein-Main air
11 force base, I was not aware that the crew had arranged for an ambulance to
12 pick me up, and they took me to the 97th General Hospital in Frankfurt,
13 which was a US military hospital. There was some confusion there as to
14 whether or not I was entitled to treatment as a civilian at that
15 hospital. Some calls were made and I was told that I would have to
16 reimburse the US military for any treatment. I stayed for six hours in
17 that hospital. Then I called a contact in Munich, Germany, who made a
18 phone call to Krankenhaus Bogenhausen, in Munich, to a specialist in
19 orthopedic injuries, Dr. Kyle, who told me to proceed immediately to
20 Munich. The American military hospital made a temporary bandaging of my
21 wound. They delivered me to the train station and I went to Munich, where
22 I received my treatment.
23 Q. I would appreciate it, sir, if you could, to the extent to which
24 it is possible, give us a brief answer to our questions. I have deduced
25 from your reply, even though it is not expressis verbis that it was at a
1 US base in Germany. Is that correct?
2 A. I did not receive treatment at the US base in --
3 Q. No. That's not my question. My question to you is not that. Let
4 me reiterate my question for the third time. If not, I won't ask it. And
5 I suppose you can reply by yes or no. Was it or was it not, yes or no, a
6 US base in Germany?
7 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, objection is based upon?
9 MR. IERACE: The question not being at all clear, in view of the
10 previous questions and answers. It is not clear from that question
11 specifically what it is that the base refers to. Is that -- in other
12 words, is the question: Did you receive treatment at an army base? In
13 which case the witness has answered that question, that he went to Munich
14 for treatment and that he received only a bandage at an American
15 hospital. Or is the question something else? So I'd ask that my friend
16 make clear what his question is.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. Could you please clarify
18 the question what you mean by "base," whether it's the arrival base or the
19 base where he was treated.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be pleased to,
21 Mr. President.
22 Q. The term "base," generally speaking, refers to a military base and
23 not a civilian hospital. What I mean is the air force base -- I suppose I
24 don't even know. I've just learned about it, where the gentleman was
25 taken immediately upon his arrival to Germany. That is to say, when he
1 disembarked the plane. Is my question sufficiently clear now?
2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question.
3 A. Yes. All UN flights in and out of Sarajevo originated and
4 terminated on a military base of some government. That is the answer to
5 the question, yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So it is indeed a US base on German territory?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. I can see, on the basis of your answer, that at a
10 certain point you were able to leave for another hospital in Munich. Is
11 that correct? You did not say that you were taken there in an ambulance,
12 so you left there and you went there yourself?
13 A. That is correct. I had crutches and I was able to -- I was taken
14 to the train station. When I arrived in Munich at the train station, I
15 was picked up by a friend, who was allowed to come into the station with a
16 vehicle and take me out to the hospital.
17 Q. With reference to the first treatment institute where you were
18 treated by, I believe, US military staff, you have indicated that you did
19 not know whether you could be admitted, how to pay, and that there were
20 some technical issues involved. Did you make the payment directly to
21 those doctors?
22 A. Okay. You've broken that up into three questions. I will answer
23 all three. The first, you've indicated that you did not know whether you
24 could be admitted. That is correct, yes. The second, how to pay. I
25 already knew how to pay. They said they were going to bill me and I would
1 have to pay the bill if I got a bill from them. The third -- and there
2 were some technical issues involved, but there were no technical issues
3 involved. There was just the request for permission to treat me there,
4 which apparently was granted but I refused.
5 Q. Thank you. Have you ever received that bill?
6 A. No. There was no bill made up for it.
7 Q. Let me put another question to you. It's a dual question, in
8 fact. In your view, is it a normal procedure, is it a normal, regular,
9 standard procedure for non-military, civilian journalists to be, one,
10 treated at a military hospital abroad; and two, without being asked to pay
11 anything whatsoever?
12 A. Yes. In answer to the first segment of that question, it is a
13 common practice to take Americans and citizens of other NATO countries, or
14 any country that requests that a wounded diplomat or citizen be taken
15 out. They're usually taken to an American facility. If the facility is
16 nearby, where they're allowed to be picked up by their own country or
17 leave on their own. In answer to the second part of that question, it is
18 up to the command of each unit, I assume, or to the US government, or to
19 the US State Department, or to whatever agency that the military reports
20 to or requests, send the bill out to do that, and I never heard from them,
21 so I don't know.
22 Q. Do I understand you correctly? You say that you do not know the
23 reason why you have never received a bill for that treatment?
24 A. Because I was not treated at that hospital. I was -- I refused
25 treatment. The doctor on duty only changed the dressing on my leg and
1 allowed me to leave. So I don't assume there was ever any bill
2 processed. I can only assume that. I have no clue. I don't have an
4 Q. How do you explain your own statement just now that you said that
5 you were told you were going to be billed?
6 A. You would have to contact the 97th Hospital in Rhein Main -- or in
7 Frankfurt, Germany and ask them to find out who the doctor was that
8 evening, go to see if there's any records of the -- they did take records,
9 because they wrote things down. They were going to prescribe me a
10 pharmacy. I didn't take the pharmaceutical, I didn't take the
11 prescription for pain to the pharmacy to pick it up. But there are
12 records of that time, and you would have to ask them. I'm afraid I can't
13 answer your question, sir.
14 Q. As regards the costs of the hospitalisation at the krankenhaus
15 that you mentioned, the same question: What about those expenses?
16 A. I was prepared to pay the expenses on my own via my insurance
17 would cover that. However, that did not turn out to be necessary.
18 Q. Just a second. You told us that you had been severely injured in
19 Sarajevo on two occasions by a bullet, that you were evacuated on an
20 urgent basis by a military aircraft, that you were transported in an
21 ambulance from the aircraft to a military hospital, that you were visited
22 by a specialist in Germany, in Munich, by an orthopedist, I believe you
23 told us, and that nobody ever asked you to pay anything whatsoever in your
24 capacity as a freelance journalist. Am I correct in understanding your
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you're standing up.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be that my friend has been
3 mistranslated but the translation this into English reads: "You told us
4 that you had been severely injured in Sarajevo on two occasions by a
5 bullet." If that is what my friend has said, that does not reflect the
6 evidence. The evidence is that he was hit by a bullet twice on the one
7 occasion. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I imagine that I follow the question in French, as a
9 matter of fact. I think there might be some misunderstanding about that.
10 I think, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please deny, if it's not true, that the
11 understanding of the Prosecution is correct, that it was one incident, two
12 times hit by a bullet.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] When I said that he was
14 wounded on two occasions --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... by this. Please
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will repeat my question,
18 which is exactly the same as the one I asked a moment ago.
19 Q. Could you please give us the answer to that question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ashton, could you please --
21 THE WITNESS: I'm reading the question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine. So you started reading at
23 12:39:17 --
24 THE WITNESS: Through to 59.
25 A. The way I'm reading the question as translated, I did not pay
1 anything because it had nothing to do with my capacity as a freelance
2 journalist. When I arrived in Munich, the friend who picked me up was a
3 student, and Professor Kyle asked if he could use my surgery as a
4 demonstration to show his students, and I agreed. I signed an agreement
5 with krankenhaus to do that. Therefore, there was no charge.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Could you be more specific, please, as regards the issue of
8 certificate that you just mentioned.
9 A. I didn't -- I signed a form of consent, which is typical with
10 surgery, and that was stated that Dr. Kyle would allow me to be used as a
11 patient for his students. He's a professor of medicine at the university
13 Q. This form of consent also provided that there would be no expenses
14 incurred whatsoever?
15 A. I didn't read the full form of consent. I don't know if that was
16 in there or not. But they never sent me a bill because he specifically
17 told me that there would be no charge.
18 Q. I think that after that surgery, you spent some time recovering in
19 a clinic. Am I correct? Somewhere?
20 A. I was there for a few days at the Krankenhaus Bogenhausen, but I
21 went to a home, a private home, to recover.
22 Q. Mr. Ashton, could you be more specific? How many days exactly did
23 you spend recovering? You said a few days. How many?
24 A. Three weeks.
25 Q. Am I correct if I think that, as a freelance journalist, you were
1 taken first to a military base, after which you were taken to a private
2 hospital, and then you were treated for a period of three weeks on a
3 private clinic, without ever having to pay any expenses?
4 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, the wording of the question
7 does not reflect the evidence. In particular, the use of the words "you
8 were taken" does not reflect the evidence. The witness has given evidence
9 that he made his own way to Munich. He has also given evidence as to the
10 circumstances in which he ended up in the hospital where he was
11 re-bandaged, and the question does not reflect that evidence. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether this is a translation problem or
13 not, but could you please rephrase, keeping in mind the objection to the
14 question, please.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to do so, Mr.
16 President. I will ask the same question, but I will use the word "taken"
17 in brackets, because you were taken from Sarajevo to Germany by aircraft,
18 and then I think you took a train to Munich. But the question remains the
20 A. Okay. I'll do my best to provide you with an answer based on the
21 question above and this question. In answer to this last question, yes, I
22 was taken by aircraft and then released and taken -- I took a train
23 privately to Munich and was picked up and taken to a hospital, where I was
24 treated. But in reference to your first question, you've put in there
25 that I was treated at a private clinic, and I never indicated that I was
1 ever treated at a private clinic. I went home and recovered. I went back
2 to the Krankenhaus Bogenhausen to see Dr. Kyle for repeat check-ups,
3 because they had to follow up, but other than that there was no other
4 clinic involved.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you for that clarification. You immediately
6 found a flat in Munich, where the situation with flats is very difficult,
7 but you were able to find it immediately; am I correct?
8 A. Yes. I found a flat because I have friends from my former years
9 as a journalist travelling around the world, and I contacted a friend, as
10 I told you in the earlier statement, when I came into Frankfurt and let
11 them know I was there and they asked me to come down. So I stayed with
12 him. It was very easy.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer. Jean Piaget, does the name
14 ring a bell for you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Absolutely no?
17 A. Jean Piaget. Yes, now that it's spelled correctly up here, but
18 no, I'm not familiar.
19 Q. I should like to spend some time discussing your statement,
20 Mr. Ashton. Generally speaking, do you -- or rather, can you confirm
21 whatever you stated, whatever you have stated so far, or rather, whatever
22 you have testified so far? That is, do you abide by your testimony given
23 during these past two days?
24 A. Yes, I abide by the testimony given during the past two days.
25 That's correct.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. You testified that you had worked at the hospital there. Is it
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. In your testimony, I couldn't see precisely what kind of hospital
5 it was, or rather, which hospital it was. Could you tell us now?
6 A. Yes. In the State Hospital.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- may I just ask that there was I think a
8 problem with the translation, because you said about the hospital or the
9 hospitals, in the plural, which has not been answered by the witness but
10 also has not been translated properly. So please, could you repeated the
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. My question was: In which hospital or in which hospitals did you
14 work in Sarajevo?
15 A. Okay. This changes the answer to the question. Direct work,
16 assisting in triage, I worked at the Sarajevo State Hospital, in the
17 emergency room on occasion when there were too many victims. Assessments
18 I did at the hospitals in Sarajevo and surrounding Sarajevo.
19 Q. I should like to have brief answers. I would appreciate if you
20 could provide us with brief and specific answers. I wanted to know what
21 your function was at the hospital. Did you volunteer to work there? Were
22 you a volunteer or were you considered as a staff member of the hospital?
23 Were you an employee of the hospital?
24 A. Negative. I was never a staff member of the hospital. I have
25 medial medical training as a paramedic in the United States. While I was
1 there, first as a journalist, I assisted in triage when patients came in,
2 when there was not enough staff, which the staff appreciated the extra
3 help, after which time I worked for UNHCR and began doing humanitarian
4 deliveries to the region. I did very little but to help in the hospital
5 emergency room. I did assessments for needs of pharmaceuticals and or
6 medical equipment, for the State Hospital, Kosevo Hospital, Dobrinja,
7 Blazuj, the tuberculosis centre at Lukavica, Pale and other hospitals
8 throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as Croatia.
9 Q. Thank you. I think that I can conclude from your answer that in
10 one capacity another you were able to have contact with a number of
11 hospitals in the area. Is it correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Who was responsible for the morgue of the State Hospital in
14 Sarajevo? Who was the person in charge of the morgue of the State
15 Sarajevo Hospital in September 1992, to be more specific?
16 A. I do not recall his name.
17 Q. Do you speak Serbian, sir?
18 A. I have learned a little bit. Do I speak it? No.
19 Q. You have testified a moment ago that you had interpreters but that
20 you would not use them most of the time. Is it correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object again, similar ground as
24 A. The question does not reflect the evidence. The evidence was that
25 the witness had interpreters with him when he met with Major Indic, and he
1 did not need to use the interpreters with Major Indic. The difficulty
2 with misrepresenting the evidence is that it can easily lead to
3 misunderstandings and unreliable evidence all around. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please indicate the
5 exact spot where the witness has said that he, as it is in the -- in
6 line 12:55:26: "You've testified a moment ago that you had interpreters
7 but that you would not use them most of the time." Would you please
8 indicate where the witness said this.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be pleased to do that,
10 but we will need some time to locate it. But I heard the witness say that
11 it was correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... question, and I
13 would like to give a decision on that objection. So I invite you to, over
14 lunch, to find the exact place where the witness said this, and you can go
15 through -- you can scroll through the transcript on your computer and
16 indicate in the beginning of the afternoon where he said that. If you
17 cannot find an exact place where he actually said what you did put in your
18 question, I remind you that we have now had several objections concerning
19 your phrasing of what the testimony was before. And if you can't find it,
20 I'd like to remind you that you have to be very precise on that.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
22 will check this issue shortly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I --?
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and inform the
1 Court in the afternoon where you found the source.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question remains the same.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... objections have
4 been made before. You may proceed with your next question, please.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Q. Mr. Ashton, when you interviewed people, very often you would have
7 an interpreter with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think that you did not have an interpreter with you at all
10 times, in particular, not when you worked in the hospitals.
11 A. No, it was not necessary, because many of the hospital staff spoke
12 fluent English and could interpret for me, but I did often take
13 interpreters to the hospitals.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it's 1.00 now. If there would be
15 a suitable moment to stop, would you please indicate when it is, within
16 the next two or three minutes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will ask my final question
18 and then -- I mean, final question before the break, and then we can have
19 the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your
23 Q. So consequently, and generally speaking, the statements, the
24 words that you heard from the wounded persons would always have been
25 indirect words of those people; they would have been translated, or
1 rather, interpreted by your interpreters. Is that correct?
2 A. Not all of the wounded patients. Some of them spoke English quite
3 well. Others did not speak English, and we had to be -- we had to have a
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This would be the convenient
6 time for a break, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. [In English] Ms. Pilipovic -- you're just standing
9 because we are next to a break.
10 We'll adjourn until 2.30.
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Good
3 afternoon, General Galic.
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think you still owe this Chamber a line of
5 the transcript where it says as you quoted it. Could you please give the
6 line where it --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I'm still in
9 the process of looking for that place. The Defence doesn't really have
10 enough time, but I believe I'll simply rephrased my question, Mr.
12 JUDGE ORIE: This is simply to remind you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that
13 the Chamber will not accept any sloppy quotations.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I
15 have taken due note of that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may then proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 Q. Mr. Ashton, I believe I know that you're not fluent in
19 Serbo-Croat. Is that correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Sir, I believe I know that when you were in Sarajevo, you had an
22 interpreter at all times.
23 A. That is incorrect.
24 Q. I would like to know why.
25 A. Because much of the time I was spending with other UN employees or
1 when I was not working, I was not in the accompaniment of a translator at
2 all times.
3 Q. I believe that the expression "at all times" is precisely the
4 phrase that you did use earlier on in the course of your testimony, but
5 I'll check it out.
6 If I say "most of the time," would it appear to be more
7 appropriate, from your point of view?
8 A. Most of the time, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. As to the year 1992 in particular, you had just
10 arrived in Sarajevo, and at that stage I believe you had no specific
11 knowledge of the Serbian language. Is that correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Do you know, and if so, could you remind me of that once again
14 when the war in Sarajevo itself first started?
15 A. In April of the same year, 1992.
16 Q. What year?
17 A. 1992.
18 Q. I would like to go back to some of your statements, sir, more
19 specifically, a statement that you made under 01229578, on page 12. The
20 document is dated -- rather, it is signed by yourself. I don't see the
21 date, actually, here, but it refers to the interview which took place
22 between the 29th and the 31st of October, 2001 and the 1st of November,
23 2001. Page 12 is something that I am specifically interested in, with
24 reference to Colonel Indic. I don't know whether it is possible to
25 resubmit this paper to the witness, but I believe he is familiar with it,
1 because it's his own statement dual signed?
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you want to tender it into evidence, you have to
4 give it to him. If you just want to quote a few lines, it will be
5 translated and you can confront a witness with an earlier statement just
6 by reading it.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We could tender it as proof at
8 the very end, but for the time being, I would just like to keep it as a
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... into evidence.
11 Okay. Please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You did declare, sir, that in the course of your journey to the
14 American base in Germany, you met with a military liaison officer who was
15 a Bosnian Serb?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Could we be told what was the name of that officer?
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: I again make the same objection. The second-last
21 question asked by my friend reads, "You did declare, sir, that in the
22 course of your journey to the American base in Germany, you met with a
23 military liaison officer who was a Bosnian Serb." The evidence is not
24 that he met the Bosnian Serb during the course of the journey to the
25 American base. I'm not even certain that the evidence was that the
1 Bosnian Serb was a military liaison officer, but certainly the evidence
2 was not to the effect that the meeting took place in the course of the
3 journey. So again I'd ask that in the interests of the answers being
4 reliable, that the questions reflect the evidence that's given, where they
5 purport to summarise that evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend, since
8 we've had the pleasure of hearing from him on a couple of occasions today,
9 could he tell me what he means by journey.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... avoid these
11 kinds of problems, I would suggest to you -- I don't know whether you have
12 the French text in front of you or --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I have the English text.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You have the English text. If you would please be so
15 kind to quote the English text literally on the issue you are referring
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Okay. So I will have to quote that in
18 English, "I also raised with Indic something I heard first in -- two
19 times, in Rhein-Main AFB from a Bosnian Serb military liaison."
20 Q. [Interpretation] So I have a new question, if I may. Is this what
21 you declared, sir?
22 A. Yes, this is what I declared.
23 Q. To be more specific, what do you mean by "AFB"?
24 A. Rhein-Main air force base.
25 Q. I may, then, be allowed to say that in the course of your stay at
1 the American AFB, you met with that liaison officer?
2 A. That is correct.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, considering the
4 objection which was raised by Mr. Ierace, could I now continue with my
5 questioning, or does my learned friend have any other comments to make?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, has this solved the problem?
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that now becomes a problem in relation
8 to the status of the Bosnian Serb, and again, the question -- the
9 questions asked by my friend constitute a withdrawal of the notion that
10 the meeting took place on the way to the American air force base, so I'm
11 now content. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. So let me put the question to you in the same way in which I had
15 put it to you before my learned colleague intervened. Do you remember the
16 name of that Bosnian Serb officer?
17 A. No, I cannot recall his name. I know a lot of details about him
18 because I used to see him at Sarajevo airport before he moved to
19 Rhein-Main, but I do not recall his name.
20 Q. Is that, to the best of your knowledge, a standard procedure for a
21 Bosnian Serb officer to be treated after the start of hostilities at an
22 American air force base in Germany?
23 A. First of all, he was never a Bosnian Serb officer or a military
24 personnel, at least he never identified himself as a member of the Bosnian
25 Serb military. He represented himself as a member of the Bosnian Serb
1 government at the Sarajevo airport. He always wore civilian clothes. He
2 checked the cargos coming into the airport in July, when I first arrived.
3 He was there. He was at the UNHCR cargo house. He was then later
4 transferred, at the demand of the Serbian government, or Republika Srpska
5 government, to Rhein-Main, on the grounds that they wanted to pre-inspect
6 cargos before they were flown to Sarajevo. Apparently, under the
7 agreement with the United Nations, that was allowed. At Rhein-Main he was
8 under tight restrictions and he explained those restrictions to me, that
9 he could not go off the base in Germany. He was not allowed off the base.
10 And he had to maintain a presence in the area of the residence and the
11 runway and had to have an escort at all times if he left the Rhein-Main
12 air force base hotel.
13 Q. Thank you. May I then say that since your childhood, you have
14 always lived in a military environment because your family had always
15 lived there in such an environment, and you also lived in an area in which
16 important military activity took part?
17 A. I lived in a family who was very involved in the military. I
18 never lived on a military base in my youth, so I don't consider that a
19 military environment. However, I was around military people all my life,
20 and the area I lived was a military base, five miles from my home.
21 Q. Thank you. When you say, sir - and we won't have a problem with
22 translation this time, because that's what you did say - that this person
23 that you met with was, and I quote in English, [In English], "Serb
24 military liaison," [Interpretation] How can you explain, then, the fact
25 that now you say that he was not a member of the military? What you've
1 just said, in fact.
2 A. He told me that he was appointed by the military of the Republika
3 Srpska to monitor the cargos, because they were in control of the airport,
4 but he never indicated he himself was military or his assignment was a
5 military assignment. Therefore, I have no idea if he was or was not,
6 except for the fact that he was constantly in military clothes every time
7 I saw him.
8 Q. But why, then, under such circumstances, did you yourself say
9 sometimes between the end of October and the beginning of November, last
10 year, 2001, that is, that you had talked to, I presume, a member of the
11 army, of the armed forces, Bosnian Serb armed forces? I've just quoted
12 your statement, sir?
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object again.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. IERACE: Again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is putting to the witness
16 what I suggest is not the evidence and has been put to the witness as if
17 it is the evidence. In particular, the words "You had talked to a member
18 of the armed forces, that is, the Bosnian Serb armed forces." That has
19 not been the evidence of this witness as I've heard it, and yet it is put
20 to the witness as if it had been his evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what's the source of confronting
22 the witness with the words, "You had talked to a member of the armed
23 forces," at least a member of the armed forces? Could you give us, quote
24 literally so that the Prosecution can follow your quotation?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: You want me to quote literally?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I would like you to quote literally, yes, please.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You want me to repeat the
3 entire sentence or just that bit of the phrase?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think that you are confronting the witness with an
5 earlier statement, you said, "Sometime between the end of October and the
6 beginning of November, last year, 2001, that is, that you had talked to"
7 and then you say "I presume," in the English translation, "a member of the
8 army, armed forces, Bosnian Serb armed forces." And then you say, "I've
9 just quoted your statement." Would you please quote literally this part
10 of the statement.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to quote it once
12 again, and I'm going to give you the numbers. 02129578. That's the
13 number of the document, page 12 [In English] "I also raised with Indic
14 something I heard first in Rhein-Main AFB from a Bosnian Serb military
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may answer the question.
17 THE WITNESS: Now would you ask the question again, please.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I'd be all the more pleased, as it is going to be exactly the same
20 question. You declared on that day that you had met, at the American air
21 force base in Germany with a military liaison officer from the Bosnian
22 Serb side. Now, a couple of minutes ago, you've just said that that
23 person was not in fact a member of the military. Would you like me to
24 quote your own words just now? But I believe that everybody remembers
25 them quite clearly. Now why is that difference?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Allow me. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're talking about an
2 officier, and in the English text -- I see you say "officier militaire"
3 and in the English text it's a military liaison officer, which makes it
4 not quite clear whether it was a military liaison officer or a military
5 liaison officer [sic]. You understand there can be some misunderstanding
6 about whether this was a military officer with liaison duties or that it
7 was an officer who had served as a military liaison, and an officer is not
8 always a military officer. I'd just like to explain this to the witness,
9 that there is some risk of misunderstanding in both the English and the
10 French language.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: There's a further point I would make again. The word
14 officer is being put to this witness as something which appears in his
15 statement and it does not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot check at this moment what exactly is in the
17 statement, because we have not been provided with the statement, and if
18 there's any discussion about what the statement is exactly saying, because
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin said that he read this line of the statement. If you
20 disagree with him, please read your line of the statement on page 12.
21 MR. IERACE: I agree that Mr. Piletta-Zanin has correctly read the
22 sentence, and the sentence as read makes no reference to the word
23 "officer." I'll read it again: "I also raised with Indic something I
24 heard first in Rhein-Main AFB from a Bosnian Serb military liaison."
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So would you then please, keeping in mind
2 what has been said by now, your question, and I would not like to hear
3 again that you are phrasing the question exactly the same as you did
4 before. Thank you.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
6 Q. So you then met with a person in charge of military liaison from
7 the Bosnian Serb side in Germany at the American AF base; is that correct?
8 MR. IERACE: I object. The sentence does not say that the person
9 was in charge of military liaison. It says that he was from military
10 liaison. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please rephrase your
12 question, in view of this -- I mean, let's not spend hours and hours on
13 this minor issue, in my view, but -- and let's just proceed without these
14 problems. Could you please --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will do it very gladly.
16 Q. Let me go back to the iron cross once again. Sir, were you in a
17 position to measure on the spot the significance of the cross in point?
18 What I'm referring to are the attacks on the PTT building that you talked
19 about earlier on.
20 A. Maybe this is a problem with translation, but your question does
21 not make sense to me.
22 Q. I'm going to put it to you again. You mentioned that there was a
23 technique consisting of imposing the iron cross which corresponded to an
24 orthodox cross, the shape of an orthodox cross; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. I was told about a technique that corresponded with the
1 shape of an orthodox cross.
2 Q. You told us this morning, when showing us the photo of an attack
3 around the PTT building, and you said that that was consistent with the
4 so-called iron cross strategy; is that correct?
5 A. I had my photos with me in Rhein-Main, and when the gentleman
6 looked at them, and I was explaining some of the different photographs,
7 especially some of the victims, he saw that and we discussed that
8 particular incident, and he's the one who said, "Oh, yeah. This is a
9 technique we call the iron cross." But I didn't ask him any questions
10 about it, but he voluntarily explained this procedure.
11 Q. On the basis of that photo, as a consequence, the photo that we
12 discussed this morning --
13 A. This is a question?
14 Q. [In English] It is a question, absolutely.
15 A. Yes, on the basis of this photo that we discussed this morning,
16 there were further details about what was going on, but he volunteered
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May we resubmit to the witness
21 the picture which was shown this morning? I can indicate to you the
22 number, if you want me to do so, but it's etched in all our minds. It is
23 the PTT building.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Am I correct if you are referring to the photo which
25 bears the number 00391328?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just give me 30 seconds to
2 find it. Yes, that's exactly what it is, 328. It's handwritten, but I
3 suppose that's what it is. Could we resubmit that photo.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you give the photo to
5 the Usher so that it could be put in front of the witness.
6 Oh, you have got it in front of you. Okay, that's fine. I can
7 see from here that it's the same.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to put it on the
9 video system so that we can work together. We had that same picture in
10 front of us, and that was the picture that you had submitted to the person
11 that I erroneously called the liaison officer.
12 Q. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. This is the picture that I showed to the person I referred
14 as a liaison to the Serb military.
15 Q. Would you like to take a pen, please, and as precisely as you can
16 draw on this picture the form -- the shape of the cross in question?
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 misunderstandings. The document has not been tendered into evidence.
19 Markings could be made on it, but only at this moment with a black
20 pencil -- a black pen.
21 THE WITNESS: May I mark on this copy?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the original one that has -- will be tendered
23 into evidence? So you have to use another one, not a copy, but the
24 original one. Would you please give it to the usher.
25 Yes, Mr. Ashton. I think the last question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin
1 was whether you could indicate on the photo the -- I think it was the iron
3 A. Before I indicate on the photo any image of an iron cross, I
4 do not -- I did not at the time I took this photograph have any knowledge
5 of this process or procedure, nor do I indicate that this was this
6 procedure. There is a series of these photographs that was photographed
7 during that time. This is only one in the sequence of the shells
8 exploding up the avenue over a five-minute period and on the sides of the
9 avenue. As I expressed to him, this event - and he saw the pictures. He
10 laughed about it and said, "Oh, yes, this is the technique," which he
11 explained. So to mark that picture -- I can mark where shells landed. If
12 you want me to mark where the shells landed, I would be happy to do it.
13 Is that what you request, sir?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to
15 know whether, by looking at this photograph which was produced this
16 morning, one could trace the lines of the impact by referring to the iron
17 cross technique, and I can only conclude that the witness is unable to do
18 so. If that should be the case indeed, let him say so, that is, that he
19 is unable to do so on the basis of that particular photograph.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered your question. The witness
21 has indicated that on this single photo he could not indicate where the
22 iron cross could be situated. So I think that's an answer to your
23 question. You may proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Am I correct, sir, in thinking that on the basis of this
1 photograph, one cannot conclude that this would be an example of the iron
2 cross technique?
3 A. Absolutely. I didn't conclude -- I only heard this information
4 after I explained the shelling of the area.
5 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. Let me go back to a question
6 that I asked previously. What would be the surface area of the impact of
7 the iron cross technique? If you don't know, just say that, sir, please.
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. Thank you. Let me now move on to another area of my
10 cross-examination. Witness, what is the significance of the abbreviation
11 T-54? What does that stand for?
12 A. It is type of tank built by Soviet and east block countries.
13 Q. Am I correct in understanding that the letter "T" does not stand
14 for the word "tank" -- does stand for the word "tank"?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Could you tell us what the letter "t" stands for, then?
17 A. No, I cannot. It's a designation. I do not know it.
18 Q. You told us that you had undergone formation on Soviet weapons. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Do you know what the two figures would mean? What would "5"
22 and"4" stand for?
23 A. In certain cases, the designation of the year of construction or
25 Q. When you say "the year of construction," you mean the year in
1 which the weapon was designed?
2 A. Introduced, that's correct.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. In response to a question that I asked - I don't
4 have the references, but I believe we all remember it - that you could
5 confirm your testimony from today and yesterday; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Would it be possible for you to confirm once again before this
8 Honourable Chamber that there had been armed forces in Sarajevo, military
9 armed forces, that is, military or police armed forces, which were active
10 at the time but did not wear uniform?
11 A. I confirm there were military armed forces in uniform and I
12 confirm that there were police forces. I didn't -- I don't classify them
13 as armed forces. They were police forces who had police uniforms. Most
14 of them did not have weapons because they did not have enough weapons.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question was
16 somewhat different. May I be allowed to ask the same question once again?
17 Q. Witness, would you please confirm what I think you have already
18 testified about, that is, that there were armed forces, both military
19 and/or police armed forces which were active at the time but did not wear
20 uniform in Sarajevo?
21 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: The question has many elements which
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin seeks to have confirmed. It is not helpful to include
25 in the phrasing of the question "military and/or police armed forces." I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 respectfully submit that they should be put to the witness separately.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I invite you to split up your
3 question in more detail, and apart from the objection raised by the
4 Prosecution, I may remind you that "armed forces" is a concept which could
5 mean different things. For example, if you are a doctor in an armed
6 force, this does not mean that you wear any arms. So armed force being
7 armed are two different things. So I would like you to specify on each
8 and every detail of your question what you would like to know from the --
9 hear from the witness.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like to hear the
11 truth from the witness, Your Honour, like everybody else. Let me try and
12 be more specific in my question.
13 Q. Initially, as regards police forces, which could be defined as
14 armed forces, could you confirm that there were active police forces in
15 Sarajevo that did not wear uniform? I'm interested in the question of
16 uniform, not the issue of weapons.
17 A. The truthful answer to that question is that I did not see any
18 civilians with weapons in Sarajevo.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid, Mr. Ashton, that's not an answer to the
20 question. The question, in fact, was that if you would comprise police
21 forces as part of armed forces, independent on whether the police officers
22 would wear any arm, whether anyone who was serving on the police form was
23 active, not wearing a uniform. I think that's the question, as I
24 understood it.
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that's --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You have perfectly understood
2 the question. I just wanted to have the witness confirm something that he
3 has already said.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If so, I would like you to give a precise source if
5 you refer to earlier parts of the testimony, but this is the question as
6 it stands now. Whether it's a confirmation of an earlier statement or not
7 is not of major importance. But that was the question as I just rephrased
8 it. Could you please answer that question, Mr. Ashton.
9 A. I did not see any civilians with weapons.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will ask the
11 question for the fourth time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... don't mind,
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll interfere at this moment. The question,
14 Mr. Ashton, was whether any -- were there any members of the police force,
15 active members of the police forms, who were not wearing a uniform.
16 That's the question.
17 A. There were -- I understand now. The active police officers who
18 were off duty didn't wear a uniform. I mean, they weren't active on
19 duty. There were police officers who I met that were not on duty, they
20 were in civilian clothes. There were active duty police officers in
21 uniform. I think that's the correct answer to this question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since the Judges have the power to put any
23 question at any moment, were there any police officers ever who were on
24 duty not wearing a uniform?
25 A. I never saw that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday that you had been injured by a bullet
5 on one occasion but on two places, on two spots, on the 23rd of July,
6 1992. Could you tell us the hour when that wounding occurred?
7 A. It occurred approximately around noontime, sometime just after
9 Q. In the middle of the day?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. What day of the week was it?
12 A. I don't recall July 23, 1992, but that was the day.
13 Q. On that day, you were escorted by five police officers; is that
15 A. I don't know the identity of all of them. One was a police
16 officer off duty. He was not armed. There were soldiers accompanying us.
17 Q. You're telling us that one of them was a police officer off duty.
18 Can I therefore conclude that the four others were also police officers?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because in French, four out
21 of --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I just heard
23 that the witness said that, "One of them was a police officer and there
24 were military people." I did not hear him say that all the five were
25 police officers. So five minus one makes four, that's true, but five
1 people minus one police officer does not make four police officers.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
3 your remark, but I heard the witness say, and I checked it on the
4 transcript a second ago - you still have it on the screen - that one of
5 the policemen was off duty. We can always check the transcript. Off
6 duty, yes. I am referring to line 15:16:41. 15:16:41. Yes "one was a
7 police officer off duty."
8 JUDGE ORIE: It says that, "One was a police officer off duty."
9 Which doesn't say anything about the quality of the others. But please
10 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're perfectly right, Mr.
12 President. Let me move on. 16:30:37, the precise reference of the
13 statement of the witness who testified today, and I am giving you the
14 right reference, that there was a group of five policemen with him. I can
15 only conclude, Mr. President, that five police officers, minus one, leaves
16 us with four police officers that were not in uniform. I suggest that we
17 should refer ourselves to the testimony of the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... so I'll just
19 look it up, if you would just give me one moment.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid I'll take some time to check it later
22 on. I was mistakenly was assuming that you were referring to the
23 statement of the witness today, but please proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you want me to quote the
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] "In a response given to a
3 question that was put by the Prosecutor, and I quote [In English], "When
4 you were shot, you were with, you say, a group of people. Who were those
5 people? What were they wearing?" "They were wearing -- two of them were
6 wearing military uniforms. The rest were wearing civilian clothes. Five
7 of them were actually policemen from the city of Bosnia -- from the city
8 of Sarajevo." End of quotation. [Interpretation] I was referring
9 specifically to these words of the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. It's in the English text on page 1207, line 9 and the
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So we are talking about five
14 police officers, Mr. President, and today we have learned that only one of
15 them was off duty. Consequently, this might be arithmetics, but this
16 isn't exact science. Consequently, four were active police officers who
17 were not wearing uniform. Was my reference specific and precise enough?
18 Shall I ask the question once again of the witness?
19 Q. Sir, could you confirm, in view of your own words that I have just
20 quoted, that there were, at least at the beginning of the war, police
21 armed forces that were active but that did not wear uniform, in Sarajevo?
22 A. I cannot confirm that because I don't know if these men were on
23 duty at the time. They never told me they were on duty or off duty.
24 Q. Let me ask a different question. You answered one of my questions
25 today to the effect that only one of them was off duty. So why did you
1 confirm that a moment ago?
2 A. Because I --
3 MR. IERACE: I object.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is not my recollection of what
6 was said by the witness. I must confess that I am laboring under a
7 difficulty in checking the transcript, because for all of this week, with
8 the exception of yesterday afternoon for an hour and a half, we have not
9 had access to a second computer with LiveNote that works, so I am unable
10 to quickly scroll back to the answer that the witness gave approximately
11 15 minutes, but certainly it's not my recollection that that was the
12 thrust of his answer.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think I am in a position that I can help you. On
14 the transcript, it says about the -- the question was: "On that day, you
15 were escorted by five police officers; is that correct." The answer given
16 is: "I don't know the identity of all of them. One was a police officer
17 off duty. He was not armed. There were soldiers accompanying me." That
18 was exactly what the witness said, and I note that Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in
19 summarising the statement, added the words "solely."
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that being the case, I certainly
21 maintain the objection. It does not follow from that evidence that one is
22 entitled to conclude that four of the remaining police officers were
23 therefore off duty. That is simply not a proposition open to my friend.
24 He's entitled to ask the question, but he is not entitled to put to this
25 witness that that is what he has already said earlier today. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please rephrase your question in the light
2 of this objection, and please leave out any additions to what the witness
3 has said before.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It would be my pleasure,
5 Mr. President. Let me just check in the transcript what exactly it was
6 that the witness answered a moment ago. But I will do that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I did read it literally, but if you want to check it,
8 please go ahead, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. On my computer it is at 15 hours, 16
9 minutes, 70 seconds, at page 82, line 11.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have it. I've found it,
11 Mr. President.
12 Q. Let me therefore rephrase my question. Sir, you were accompanied
13 by, in particular, a group of five police officers. One of them, at any
14 rate, was off duty?
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but he didn't say
16 "five policemen." He mentioned four soldiers.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your
18 Honour, the witness said "five police officers" during his statement
19 initially, and that is what I referred to a moment ago.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... when you are
21 speaking about "five policemen," I read from page 1207 of the testimony of
22 yesterday, not of the testimony of today: "They were wearing -- two of
23 them were wearing military uniforms. The rest were wearing civilian
24 clothes. Five of them were actually policemen from the city of Bosnia --
25 from the city of Sarajevo." You're referring to that line. Please
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I am. So there are
3 five police officers, or rather, there were five police officers in your
4 testimony yesterday.
5 Q. Mathematics can sometimes be quite delicate. Let me rephrase my
6 question. Can we therefore say that you were accompanied by five police
7 officers, one of whom at that time was not on duty?
8 A. The fact the five were not carrying weapons, you can ascertain
9 that they were all off duty, I suppose. There were some HVO soldiers
10 travelling with us, and there were HVO soldiers in the area, two of which
11 were right in front of me, and they were dressed in uniform and armed.
12 Q. Yesterday, sir, did you use the term "to escort," the word
14 A. Yes, because when you go in an area that you don't know in
15 Sarajevo, you ask anyone to escort you, locals, anybody who knows the
16 area, where the risks are, where the dangers are, so they can at least
17 tell you who is who and what's going to happen.
18 Q. Those five police officers who were not wearing uniform, were they
19 escorted by two members of the military?
20 A. No. They were friends of my -- my friend Sane, who I was with,
21 who brought me out from Sarajevo who was an off-duty police officer. He
22 met them in the street. We were all talking. When we went to the front
23 lines, we were talking to soldiers wearing HVO uniforms. They escort us
24 all the down the trench line until we crossed the street, and that's what
1 Q. And may we be told what was the reason for them being with you?
2 A. Two of them had family members in the apartment blocks in Otes
3 across the street that we were going to. One of them wanted to take me to
4 meet his parents. I don't know -- the other two were friends of theirs.
5 They were all together when we arrived and talking, so I have no reason --
6 no knowledge of why they would have accompanied us.
7 Q. When you were injured, sir, wounded by a bullet, would it be
8 correct to say that it was somehow between the two front lines or very
9 close to the front lines?
10 A. It was at the front lines.
11 Q. You told us yesterday that from a hill near Sarajevo, the Serb
12 side was capable of identifying people, recognising them on the basis of
13 their faces, and thus know who they were. Could you confirm that?
14 A. Yes, that's true.
15 Q. Am I then wrong in saying that we might then think that in the
16 course of that incident, accident that I was referring to earlier on, that
17 the Serb side might have been in a position to recognise someone amongst
18 your escorts and recognise them as military staff or policemen?
19 A. Well, first of all, the question that you've just referred to
20 earlier was about Trebevic. It had nothing to do with this particular
21 area, or this incident. However, I have no clue why a Serb would fire at
22 anyone. I was the first target. They wouldn't shoot at anybody else. I
23 was the first person that was shot at. So I wouldn't have an answer to
24 that question.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. I would now like to go back to the matter of
1 hospitals. You worked for a sufficiently long time at hospitals to know
2 about the way in which the morgues were operated; is that correct?
3 A. Sufficiently long time, yes. To know about the way the morgues
4 were operated, I didn't spend time in the morgue. I visited the morgue
5 and took pictures in the morgue of dead people when were brought in,
6 wounded women and children, but I didn't spend any time there talking to
7 the operators of the morgues, the director of the morgues, no.
8 Q. According to your knowledge of the inside of that area, what
9 happened to the corpses once they had been introduced and then left at the
11 A. Corpses were brought in to the morgue either from the street or
12 the hospital. Generally they were taken first into the hospital emergency
13 room and then brought over to the morgue. The bodies were placed on
14 gurneys or on what tables were available, and if there was an overflow of
15 bodies, they were placed into caskets, which there often was. Many older
16 people had no family left in Sarajevo so they left for someone to come and
17 identify, but since they had no relatives or survivors, they were left
18 there for quite some time and then buried in the Lion's Cemetery or other
19 cemeteries around the city of Sarajevo. I don't know the length of time a
20 body was left, although I did see some for three, four and five days
21 waiting for someone to come and identify.
22 Q. So to sum up, and you could agree with me in saying that after a
23 certain period of time the bodies were taken directly to the cemetery?
24 A. Yes, but as far as I was told by one of the -- at the morgue at
25 Kosevo, the fellow who handled the bodies, he said they waited ample time,
1 which is generally five days. Usually someone would come within a day or
2 two, if a relative didn't show up at home or the Bosnian government knew
3 who it was. Often they had papers with them, but even so, sometimes a
4 relative couldn't be found so the body was buried after a period of time.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this stage I
6 would like to submit two photos to the witness. I would like to specify
7 that those pictures come from the Prosecution. We've copied them and
8 we've got them in a file. We've got seven copies of each, and so perhaps
9 we could give them to the registrar as well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You want to put any question concerning one of the
11 photographs? Please indicate the number of the photo and put your
12 question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this
14 comes from the same document that you have in front of you,
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] They were in an initial binder
18 that we had received.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to show a photo to the witness which was
20 not been shown before, you should have it either marked for identification
21 or you have to tender it into evidence. You can't just give numbers of --
22 we have no access to any other documentation apart from that which has
23 been given to us in this court. So if it's in the binder, we can just put
24 it in front of the witness. If not, you have to follow the procedures we
25 earlier discussed about marking for identification or tendering into
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. As
3 a matter of fact, it will be D10 and D11 for the two pictures. I do
4 apologise to the Court, but we had to prepare in haste, for the reasons
5 that you are familiar with, and so it was simply not possible for us to
6 deal with everything at the same time. Since we have received important
7 documents a couple of moments beforehand. So the numbers will be D10 and
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and also the
10 witness with the prenumbered document which you intend to tender into
11 evidence and which is a photo.
12 Mr. Usher, would you please.
13 Please -- has the witness got the photos? If you would please put
14 them on the ELMO.
15 And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
16 THE WITNESS: Which picture do you want first on the ELMO?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin will guide you.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Sir, a question which will refer to both photos at the same time,
20 because generally speaking, at first sight, I would just like to know
21 whether these are the pictures that you yourself have taken, both of them.
22 A. Yes, sir, these are the two pictures that I took.
23 Q. Very well. Could you please look at the photo where the final
24 number is 73, the last two digits with 73.
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Is it correct that you took this picture at the Kosevo Hospital
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Could you specify, sir, on what date this photo was taken?
5 A. This was taken in the middle of July, as far as I can recollect
6 from this photo. I took some in October and September, but I can't
7 recollect the exact date this particular photograph was taken, but I
8 believe this was July.
9 Q. Could you be more specific as to the date?
10 A. No, I cannot.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Even not if it concerns the year, Mr. Ashton.
12 A. I'm sorry. 1992.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. On the other hand, as to the location, you are absolutely certain
16 of that?
17 A. This is Kosevo morgue.
18 Q. May I ask you now to look at the other picture, D11, at the last
19 two digits are 59, 59 -- 58, sorry, 58.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Could you describe what we can see here?
22 A. You see the body of one woman and one man.
23 Q. Sir, do you have the negatives of these two pictures?
24 A. I have the slides. They are in positive.
25 Q. Is it correct, sir, that if we compare these two photos, the one
1 that you have in front of you, where the final number is 58, and the
2 previous one, where the final number is 73, that this is at least the same
3 roll of film?
4 A. Yes, you can conclude that.
5 Q. Now, sir, on the picture number 58, you mentioned that those
6 bodies had not been identified; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct, to my knowledge. If they had not been picked up
8 at the morgue by the family, then generally they were not identified.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I please ask, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You are
10 confronting the witness with -- that he said -- you say, "You mentioned
11 that those bodies had not been identified." Could you please indicate
12 where the witness has stated --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness said that in a
14 document which is annexed to the internal reference number is 02 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... where. If you
16 refer to a statement by the witness you should be very precise where -- in
17 an earlier statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor or that he
18 testified in this courtroom.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was going to come to that,
20 Mr. President, and I was going to give you the number. It is annex -- it
21 is in an annex to his statement of the 29th of 30th of October and the 1st
22 of November, 2001, which probably was done in The Hague, and the number is
23 25, and the internal reference number is 02129558.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Just a moment, please. What exactly was said by
25 Mr. Ashton in this statement.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] By all means. I'm going to
2 quote the second sentence in point 25.
3 Q. [In English] "I heard from the head of the State Hospital morgue
4 that these two were not identified and were buried without the names."
5 "Without the names."
6 My question is the following: How is it possible -- how was it
7 possible for you to get this information from the head of the morgue of
8 the State Hospital, since you have just told us that this happened -- this
9 photo was taken at the Kosevo Hospital?
10 A. Can I answer?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can answer the question.
12 A. Thank you. The head of the State Hospital and the head of the
13 Kosevo Hospital were constantly travelling back and forth between the
14 hospitals. I went with him down to the Kosevo Hospital when these bodies
15 were taken down. And further on that, most bodies from State were taken
16 to Kosevo because that's where most people would go to try to find the
17 dead victim of their family. Now, I don't know if all the dead bodies
18 from State Hospital were transferred to Kosevo Hospital, because some
19 people did come to State Hospital to recover their dead family members.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you, sir. I must go back to your previous statement, and I
22 could look for it here, Mr. President, but I believe my memory, that it's
23 quite good.
24 At a certain point you mentioned an apartment block which was
25 deliberately attacked and set alight, and you used the term
1 "deliberately." Can you confirm that? It refers to your testimony
2 before this Court.
3 A. I can confirm that they were deliberately attacked, yes.
4 Q. Thank you. So you've reused this term "deliberately."
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Thank you. How are you in a position to know that it was a
7 deliberate act?
8 A. Well, when someone fires tank rounds repeatedly into a structure
9 or into an area, but in this case the structure, for a period of time an
10 occupied building, it would appear that, from my point of view on the
11 ground, that this is a deliberate target.
12 Q. Very well. Have you ever heard that General Galic, who is on
13 trial here, had deliberately given orders to shoot at that apartment
15 A. No, sir, never.
16 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go back to a point which I've just
17 raised, because I have it at heart. We were talking about this iron
18 cross, and I would just like to know whether you, with your own eyes, have
19 ever seen any trace of such a cross anywhere at all in Sarajevo.
20 A. No, I have not seen a trace of this iron cross in Sarajevo.
21 Q. Could you confirm, sir, that when missiles hit the ground,
22 missiles such as the one that you've referred to, they leave something
23 that the technicians call a trace or a signature? Is that correct?
24 A. In this case you've referred to missiles. Yes, they do leave a
1 Q. Could you also confirm that the civil engineering structures and
2 services in charge of repair work in Sarajevo at that stage were very
3 limited, their abilities to do the repair work were very limited?
4 A. To my knowledge, that is correct.
5 Q. As a consequence, if traces of the iron cross technique had been
6 left on the ground, one would probably presumably have been in a position
7 to spot them, because people would not have had the opportunity and time
8 to repair the damage. Is that correct?
9 A. Well, I arrived in Sarajevo in July, sir, and at that point there
10 had been over 40.000 impacts in the streets and the buildings, so I would
11 have no idea if it's been possible to trace a pattern. I mean, I would
12 assume not because of the amount of damage by artillery. The destruction
13 there was quite severe when I arrived, and continuing as I witnessed
14 events. So I can't tell you.
15 Q. Very well. Immediately following the attacks that you've
16 photographed on the PTT building, you were still in Sarajevo?
17 A. Are you referring to the attacks that I had the photographs
18 presented earlier today as evidence? Yes, I was in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Did you have the opportunity in the days following that attack to
20 visit the neighbourhood, the neighbourhood of the PTT building, that is?
21 A. I travelled around that neighbourhood, yes.
22 Q. And would you agree with me in saying that immediately after the
23 attack you found no traces of the iron cross technique on the ground?
24 A. Well, that would be impossible for me to say, because if somebody
25 was doing such a technique, I wouldn't know how the traces would look. If
1 they told me that they were doing this pattern -- I mean, I have no clue.
2 No, I wouldn't be able to see it.
3 Q. Why? Why wouldn't you be able to see it?
4 A. Well, because when you -- because when you go outside of the
5 building, the results of an impact are shrapnel, broken concrete, and
7 A. Very well. But if you were unable to see it, the others were
8 unable to see it as well.
9 A. You've referred to the verb "to see." No one that I know -- I
10 didn't mention in my testimony that I saw this particular pattern.
11 Q. Could you reply to my question, please. If you could not see it,
12 others could not see it either, and that's going to be my penultimate
13 question and then we'll be able to stop?
14 A. Okay. That's clear. No. I imagine not.
15 Q. And this brings me to my last question.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I may, Mr. President --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to intervene at this moment, because
18 again the questioning is unclear. You can see something without
19 recognising a pattern, because that's what you're talking about. So the
20 question whether it's true or not that if you do not see something would
21 implicate that someone else could not see either is not true. I'll give
22 you an example. If you listen to Bach some people will identify certain
23 structures in the music of Bach while others will just hear music. So
24 your question is not correct, and therefore I interfere. I hope you'll
25 keep this in mind and not continue on the false impression given by the
1 question, that if Mr. Ashton didn't see something, that someone else could
2 not see it either. And I may remind you that Mr. Ashton has testified in
3 this court that only after he had shown photos, not just this photo, but
4 other photos, it was explained to him that this was -- could be explained
5 by the concept of an iron cross. That indicates that Mr. Ashton, at the
6 time that he took the photographs - and your question was relating to the
7 day after he took these photographs - might not have been aware of such a
8 pattern, and like in the music of Bach might not have recognised by
9 someone else, might not have done so. So it is giving a -- it is a
10 misleading question, and I would like you not to continue on the basis of
11 this question and the answer given.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, does this mean
13 that, in view of the time, I don't continue at all, or does it mean that I
14 have to continue on a different basis?
15 JUDGE ORIE: It depends. If you have one or two questions to put
16 to the witness at this moment, you may proceed for a couple of minutes. I
17 think I was quite clear about the basis of my interference --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Under these circumstances,
20 Mr. President, at what time do we need to conclude this afternoon,
22 JUDGE ORIE: I would have said ten minutes ago at 4.00, but it
23 depends. We will finish at approximately 4.00, so I leave it up to you to
24 find a suitable moment to end, for this moment, the cross-examination.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that the appropriate
1 time is now, and I'm going to continue with my cross-examination of the
2 witness on Monday.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think this is not yet the moment
4 to tender into evidence any of the photos or the maps, since the
5 cross-examination of Mr. Ashton is still ongoing. I think the originals,
6 especially those that are marked, should be in the hands of the Registry
7 so that they can be used again next Monday.
8 Madam Registrar, we start next Monday at I think it was 9.00.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Actually, Your Honour, I'm writing you a note to
10 remind you of that. Monday, next Monday, we're going to start at 9.00 in
11 courtroom 3.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Courtroom 3, 9.00. We'll stay in recess until next
13 Monday, 9.00.
14 But Mr. Ierace wants to make an observation, I think.
15 MR. IERACE: Just two quick observations, Mr. President. First of
16 all, the timetable indicates 9.15. Is it definitely 9.00 on Monday? As I
17 indicated earlier, we have been without the benefit of a working LiveNote
18 at this end of the bar table for all but one and a half hours yesterday.
19 There have been a number of attempts to fix it, and successive laptops
20 have not worked. I raise it for this reason: Perhaps the Registry could
21 make some inquiries as to whether the problem could be solved by Monday.
22 It is hampering our ability to check the transcript beyond what appears on
23 the screen.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we are in courtroom 3 next Monday,
25 which solves our problem perhaps, but of course it needs some attention by
1 the court management that those who will hear cases in this courtroom will
2 have the profit of a working LiveNote as well. We'll pay attention to
3 that, I'm sure.
4 THE REGISTRAR: And I just checked with the last updated courtroom
5 calendar. Indeed, we're going to start at 9.00.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that we have some new schedule. So
8 9.00 next Monday. We'll stay in recess until then.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.07 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of
11 January 2002, at 9.00 a.m.