Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1666

 1                          Thursday, 17 January 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.  As I

 6    indicated yesterday, we'll have, at the end of the morning session, we'll

 7    have a break.  But first, Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is the case number

 9    IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I said we'll have a break, but of course I meant to

11    say that we'll have a Status Conference at the end of the morning.

12            Ms. Pilipovic, you may continue the last part of your

13    cross-examination once the witness has been brought in.  No other

14    observations at this moment to make?

15            Then please, Mr. Usher, would you bring in the witness.

16                          [The witness entered court]

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mulaomerovic, can you hear me?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Good morning, Your Honour.  I

19    can hear you.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Good morning to you as well.

21            Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23                          WITNESS:  ALIJA MULAOMEROVIC [Resumed]

24                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                          Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

Page 1667

          1       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mulaomerovic.

 2       A.   Good morning.

 3       Q.   We left off yesterday discussing the question of the conflict in

 4    Pofalici.  Do you happen to know whether there were any casualties and

 5    fatalities in that conflict?

 6       A.   Well, yes.  Our institution, the emergency service, worked at a

 7    higher intensity rate.  There were more people wounded and injured that we

 8    had to take care of.

 9       Q.   So you say that patients were brought in to you from that

10    particular area?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.  The wounded were brought in.

12       Q.   Do you happen to know or do you remember exactly how many?

13       A.   No, I don't.  I don't remember how many there were.  But I do

14    remember that there were quite a number of patients, or rather, wounded

15    and injured persons.

16       Q.   You said that next to your building, the building of your

17    institute, were the buildings of the Energoinvest company, the social

18    insurance company, and you mentioned a few other buildings.  Can you tell

19    us whether, during the duration of the conflict, from 1992, that is to say

20    September, up until 1994, August of 1994, whether those institutions were

21    in fact working?

22       A.   I don't think they were working.  I think that those organisations

23    had already stopped working.  Some of them had been shelled, others had

24    been set fire to, and I don't think they were operational during that

25    period.

Page 1668

 1       Q.   Do you know whether in those -- there were any soldiers in those

 2    buildings and institutions?

 3       A.   No, I don't know that.  I don't know that there were any soldiers.

 4       Q.   You also said that from September 1992 to August 1994 your

 5    building had been shot and hit on several occasions.  Could you tell us,

 6    perhaps, when you say "several times," how many times that would be?

 7       A.   Well, I would say tens of times.  Perhaps there were 50 artillery

 8    projectiles and hundreds of other shots from firearms.

 9       Q.   Was your building damaged?

10       A.   Yes, that's right, it was.  The building had a flat roof, and we

11    were able to count 17 hits on that flat roof of the building.

12       Q.   Did you make a note of that?  Did you record it, and did anybody

13    come to the spot to ascertain the damage done?  Was that recorded

14    anywhere?

15       A.   No.  Nobody came officially to ascertain the damage.  We did so

16    ourselves.  And in the requests we made to the founders, we said that the

17    roof had to be repaired, because it was quite obvious that damage had been

18    done; they were easily visible.

19       Q.   As the director of your institution, was your signature registered

20    in the court?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   On the basis of that registered signature of yours, what

23    authorisations and competences did you have?

24       A.   I was authorised to manage the institution and to sign all the

25    documents; financial and others, orders and things of that kind.

Page 1669

 1       Q.   The document that you were shown yesterday, which you looked at,

 2    and you were able to tell us that it was indeed the stamp of your

 3    institution, did you sign those documents and were you asked to sign them,

 4    in fact?

 5       A.   I don't think I was asked to sign them, and I don't remember

 6    having signed them either.  And I think I said that our protocol books are

 7    accessible to everybody authorised to look at them.  They are public

 8    records, public documents, and they don't come under any sort of

 9    confidentiality.  They are documents in our archives and can be used both

10    by people authorised to do so and professionals, of course, as well, and

11    anybody interested in specialising and using those facts and figures for

12    their thesis.

13       Q.   Could you tell me who in your institution authorises the use of

14    these documents and access to them?

15       A.   Well, nobody, actually, has to give permission.  This is stated in

16    our rules and regulations.  It states that our founders are the assembly

17    of the canton and that medical assistance is of a public character and

18    everything pertaining to that is public and that we are duty-bound to

19    respect that and to inform the public and to be at the service of the

20    public, in fact.

21       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that concludes the

23    cross-examination by the Defence.  We should like now to tender document

24    D24 into evidence as a Defence Exhibit, in view of the fact that the

25    witness has identified it.

Page 1670

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask the Prosecution whether there's any --

 2            MR. STAMP:  [Realtime transcript read in error: "Mr. Blaxill"] The

 3    objection of the Prosecution is that the document has not been

 4    demonstrated to be relevant in issues in this case. It is a document which

 5    he has identified a stamp on, but beyond that, he cannot say anything

 6    about it.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This Chamber will decide on this objection

 8    after the first break.  I'd rather not spend too much time at this moment.

 9    I mean, the cross-examination has been concluded and I think we can decide

10    on that, whether it's admitted into evidence, yes or no.

11            Are there any other questions, perhaps, before I give the

12    opportunity to the Prosecution to re-examine the witness by my colleagues?

13    No questions.  Then if there's any need for re-examination, please

14    proceed, Mr. Stamp.

15            MR. STAMP:  I'm obliged, Your Honour

16                          Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

17       Q.   You said just now in your evidence, Doctor, that you counted 17

18    hits on the flat roof of the hospital.  What did you mean when you said

19    "hits"?

20       A.   I meant that the destruction done to the building was visible to

21    the naked eye, that you could see it quite easily and count them.

22       Q.   What would you say caused those hits?

23       A.   They were caused by artillery weapons, which targeted and hit the

24    roof of the building directly.

25       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.

Page 1671

 1            MR. STAMP:  May I, Your Honour, just have one moment, if you would

 2    indulge me, to confer with my colleague.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the

 5    interval, to clarify matters, line 9:11:34 of the transcript, I did not

 6    hear Mr. Blaxill speaking.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  It must be a mistake.  It was Mr. Stamp who was

 8    objecting against the admittance of the evidence of document D24.  I think

 9    this will be corrected in the transcript.

10             Please, Mr. Stamp.

11            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  That concludes my

12    re-examination.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14            Mr. Mulaomerovic, this Chamber thanks you very much for coming --

15    I see that one of my colleagues still has a question, so if you please,

16    still wait for a second.

17                          Questioned by the Court

18            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Thank you, Doctor.  Do you have document D24

19    at hand?

20       A.   No, I don't.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please hand out D24.

22            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  As I was saying, we don't have a translation

23    of the document.  Would you please read numbers 1, 2, 3, and 15.

24       A.   Point 1.  The title is "Dead males."  And under 1, Poduvnjak Anis,

25    member of the OS, which means armed forces, the 1st of October, 1992.  And

Page 1672

 1    then it continues to say:  "1700 hours, armed conflict, one wound isolated

 2    injury, shell -- bullet head."  So there's no full diagnosis there.

 3            Number 2 is Rizvanovic Huso, a civilian.  The date is the 2nd of

 4    October, no date, at 1920 hours, "armed conflict, multiple injuries, a

 5    combined injury, shrapnel, left hand," and then the diagnosis follows:

 6    Vulnus explosivum brahi cum amputatio -- it says "vraci" [phoen], but it

 7    should be "brahi"  -- vulnus explosivum thoracis, which means an explosive

 8    wound to the upper arm, including amputation of the arm, and an explosive

 9    injury to the chest.

10            Number 3 is Palo Hajrudin.  The date is the 5th of October, it

11    says 1952.  At 1130 hours, armed conflict, one RA.  That's not a complete

12    word.  Isolated injury.  Shrapnel, neck.  And the diagnosis:  vulnus

13    explosivum regio coli, which means an explosive wound to the neck.

14            15 is Bojadzija Senad.  It says a member of the OS, armed forces.

15    The 13th of October, 1969 was his date of birth.  At 10 hours, armed

16    conflict, multiple injuries with a blunt object, multiple injuries, mortus

17    adlatus detonatio, detonation or explosion, which means that the outcome

18    was lethal.

19            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Thank you very much.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is an excerpt from the protocol

21    book.  It doesn't actually tell me anything.  It just confirms the

22    particulars recorded in the protocol by somebody, by the person on duty.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  No other questions from the Bench.

24            Then I again will start thanking you, Mr. Mulaomerovic, to have

25    come such a far way and to inform this Court about what you know and what

Page 1673

 1    your experiences were. Thank you very much.

 2            Mr. Usher, would you please guide the witness out of the

 3    courtroom.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.  Thank you too, Your

 5    Honours, and thank you one and all.

 6                          [The witness withdrew]

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, do I understand well that the next witness

 8    that will be called by the Prosecution is Mr. Hajir?

 9            MR. STAMP:  It is indeed, Your Honour, and he will be taken by my

10    learned friend Mr. --

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Mr. Stamp.

12            MR. STAMP:  I beg your pardon.  The next witness is in fact Mr.

13    Hajir, who will be taken by my learned friend, Mr. Michael Blaxill.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand well that the time estimate for Dr.

15    Hajir is two hours.  Is that correct, Mr. Blaxill?

16            MR. BLAXILL:  Yes, indeed, Your Honour.  I'm sorry, I have no

17    microphone here, but that is so, that is the maximum time.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please come to a place where we can hear

19    you, Mr. Blaxill.  And I think the usher is -- yes, is bringing in Mr.

20    Hajir.  We'll wait until he arrives.

21            MR. BLAXILL:  Yes, to answer Your Honour clearly, indeed the

22    maximum time estimate for this witness was two hours.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

24                          [The witness entered court]

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hajir, can you hear me in a language which you

Page 1674

 1    understand?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Rule 90 of the Rules of Procedure and

 4    Evidence of this Tribunal requires you to make a solemn declaration of

 5    which the text will be handed out to you by the usher at this moment.

 6    Would you please make the declaration.

 7                          WITNESS:  YOUSSEF HAJIR

 8                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hajir, please be seated.  Welcome in this

12    courtroom.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  You will first be examined by Mr. Blaxill, who is a

15    member of the Prosecution team.  The Prosecution has called you as a

16    witness in this case.

17            Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.

18            MR. BLAXILL:  I'm grateful to you, Mr. President.  Your Honours,

19    good morning.

20                          Examined by Mr. Blaxill:

21       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hajir.  You've heard my name is Michael Blaxill

22    and I will be asking you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution in

23    this case.

24            Would you please commence by giving the Court your full name and

25    your date of birth.

Page 1675

 1       A.   Youssef Hajir, the 24th of June, 1945.

 2       Q.   And Dr. Hajir, I understand you are a surgeon by profession; is

 3    that correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And is it also correct that you were working as a surgeon in the

 6    traumatology clinic in Kosevo Hospital, Sarajevo, around the beginning of

 7    1992?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And what part of Sarajevo were you living in at that time?

10       A.   At that time, I was living at Vrace, which is part of the town, a

11    district which is rather hilly.  It is actually the start of Mount

12    Trebevic.

13       Q.   And did you at any time move from that location to another part of

14    town to live?

15       A.   No.  From 1986 onwards I lived in that part of town until the war

16    broke out, until the conflict, when I was forced -- that is to say, nobody

17    forced me, but I saw that it was war, that the tanks were all around my

18    house and that they were shooting at the city.  So with my family and

19    children, I had to find somewhere else to live.

20       Q.   And where did you go, sir?

21       A.   A friend of mine lived in Dobrinja, and he called me to come to

22    him, because it was peaceful at that time in Dobrinja.  And that's what I

23    did; I went to him with my family and children to Dobrinja.

24       Q.   Was it in April 1992, sir?

25       A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 1676

 1       Q.   Is it also correct that Dobrinja is a former Olympic village that

 2    lies to the western end of Sarajevo, close to the airport?  Is that right,

 3    sir?

 4       A.   Correct.

 5       Q.   And what sort of area was Dobrinja at the time you moved there?

 6    Was it a residential area, a commercial area, or a mixture?

 7       A.   Dobrinja was built for the purposes of the 14th Olympiad, held in

 8    Sarajevo in 1984, and the building of Dobrinja started sometime in the

 9    1970s and was completed by 1990.  It is divided into several blocks, if I

10    can call them that, apartment blocks, Dobrinja 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, C4, and the

11    airport settlement.

12       Q.   And are you saying by that that it is a predominantly residential

13    area, or was?

14       A.   That's right.  There were no factories or facilities of that kind.

15    It was just a residential area.  There were shops, there were three

16    primary schools, there were two nurseries, there was a general medical

17    clinic, there was a dentistry department, the infrastructure of that kind.

18       Q.   And you have referred to the apartment complexes.  Were these

19    high-rise apartments, tall buildings with many occupants?

20       A.   Not really.  I don't think that the rules allowed building houses

21    of more than six floors there because of the airport.  There were some

22    buildings, perhaps, which had seven or eight storeys, but generally they

23    were six-storey buildings.

24       Q.   And shortly after you moved to Dobrinja to get away from armed

25    conflict elsewhere in Sarajevo, did the situation in Dobrinja change?

Page 1677

 1       A.   I apologise.  Could you repeat the question?

 2       Q.   Sorry.  Shortly after you moved to Dobrinja, did the situation

 3    change in terms of the existence of any armed conflict?

 4       A.   When I came to Dobrinja, I had to take the main road towards town,

 5    and then some people were running because there was shooting, and they

 6    were afraid.  I don't think there were any casualties, but it was

 7    dangerous to pass by that way because there was some shooting all the

 8    time.  However, in the settlement itself, when I arrived, there was no

 9    major shelling or sniper activity of any kind until the beginning of May

10    perhaps, May 1992.

11       Q.   And from what you say, Doctor, did shelling of Dobrinja commence

12    after that date, and likewise, sniping?

13       A.   From that date on, yes, from the beginning of May until the end of

14    the war, it never ceased.

15       Q.   And to the best of your recollection, were any civilian buildings

16    and civilian areas hit by shells?

17       A.   Well, it's like this, you see:  There were no military units there

18    at the beginning.  It wasn't an organised army.  How could you organise an

19    army when the JNA was the sole army in Bosnia that was recognised?  At the

20    beginning, the people who tried to do something, if I can put it that way,

21    were organised groups of young men, say 10 or 15 youngsters who would go

22    round in cars with light weapons.  They would go round the settlement.

23    They might have had a pistol or a rifle, but no major arsenal of weapons

24    of any kind.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 1678

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure, Mr.

 2    President, but I thought I heard the word "Muslims" quoted.  The English

 3    transcript said "people."  I thought I heard the word "Muslims."  Could the

 4    witness please be asked to repeat what he said.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please invite the witness to repeat, and

 6    perhaps specifically ask him whether he used the word "Muslims," which

 7    does not appear in the translation.

 8            MR. BLAXILL:

 9       Q.   Dr. Hajir, you've heard Mr. President's request.  Could you repeat

10    what you've just said about the people going round defending, and could

11    you confirm whether or not you have used the word "Muslim" in that

12    context.

13       A.   No, I didn't use that word at all.  I don't remember saying

14     "Muslims" at all.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  If it has not been said, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I would

16    like you first to verify, perhaps with your colleague, before making these

17    time-taking interventions just based on a -- as far as I can see now, a

18    wrong hearing of what has been said.  Thank you.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

20            MR. BLAXILL:

21       Q.   And Dr. Hajir, from what you said, moving on, can you tell us,

22    then, where were the shells landing when they were shelling Dobrinja?

23       A.   All over the place.  When I was thinking of where I could find

24    shelter for my children, I simply couldn't find a place that would be safe

25    and protect them from injury.  So really, it was all over.

Page 1679

 1       Q.   And likewise with the -- you've referred to sniping.  Was that

 2    sniping on just specific locations or was -- or were there danger points

 3    all over Dobrinja as a result of sniping?

 4       A.   These are apartment buildings built of concrete and steel, and if

 5    you know the direction from which the fire was coming - and at first we

 6    knew it was coming from Mojmilo, from Lukavica, from Dobrinja 4 - then you

 7    could seek shelter behind a building to avoid being hit by a sniper. That

 8    was the only way.

 9       Q.   And where you have stated the fire coming from, can you tell us,

10    please, who was controlling those areas, like at that time, Mojmilo,

11    Lukavica, Dobrinja 4?

12       A.   Well, you see, Dobrinja is such a geographic location that it was

13    simply surrounded on all four sides.  The Lukavica barracks was one of the

14    largest in the former Yugoslavia.  Then there were the airports, the

15    airstrips, until the UN or SFOR took over.  Then the village of Nedzarici.

16    And from the fourth side, that is, where the road leads into the centre of

17    town, there is the Mojmilo hill, where again certain tanks and APCs were

18    positioned, so that communication with the city centre was cut off

19    entirely.

20       Q.   And who were the forces who effected that isolation of Dobrinja?

21    Who were the actual army that were doing it?

22       A.   The JNA and paramilitary formations which had already appeared in

23    Sarajevo in those days.

24       Q.   Would those forces be ones that commonly became identified as the

25    Bosnian Serb army?

Page 1680

 1       A.   Mostly.

 2       Q.   Is it correct that in fact there was a change in position by June

 3    of that year and Dobrinja did re-establish some direct contact with the

 4    city of Sarajevo?  Is that right?

 5       A.   Yes, correct.

 6       Q.   Have you noticed civilian casualties being sustained in Dobrinja

 7    during the months from May that caused you to take any action yourself as

 8    regards medical facilities?

 9       A.   I had already mentioned, sir, that there was no organised Bosnian

10    army at the time.  The people that did come out, so to speak, did so to

11    protect their families.  We, or rather, not myself because I was a guest

12    there, but people in Dobrinja organised guard duty, so one of the tenants

13    would be on duty at the main entrance so that nobody could come in to kill

14    people or frighten people among the paramilitaries.  Most of these, I

15    can't give you a percentage, but the vast majority were civilians, they

16    were not soldiers.

17       Q.   And did you notice that there were civilian casualties being

18    sustained, and did that prompt you to take any action to set up a medical

19    facility?

20       A.   Well, you see, as this isolation of Dobrinja was really complete,

21    it was very dangerous to ask people to carry an injured person over the

22    Mojmilo hill.  There was a road that people could use over the hill to the

23    village of Surakino Selo and enter town from there, but it was very

24    dangerous to send four healthy men to carry an injured man, and you never

25    knew whether he would recover or not, to save him.  So that, as I am a

Page 1681

 1    surgeon and I specialise in traumas, walking around Dobrinja on a daily

 2    basis, I saw that during the daytime there weren't any major activities,

 3    but the

 4    shelling was mostly at night, at least at the beginning.  Later on, this

 5    changed a bit.  So together with many other people who were medical men,

 6    doctors, technicians, nurses.  We felt helpless because we didn't have any

 7    material that we needed for surgery.  You need a lot of equipment.  You

 8    need sterilisation and ...  So we agreed that if we could find some

 9    surgical material, we would provide aid to those people.

10            Shall I continue?

11       Q.   I'd just like to ask you:  Did you in fact set up an emergency

12    room or something equivalent to a hospital facility in Dobrinja; and if

13    so, when was that operational?

14       A.   At the beginning of May, these friends of mine called me and said

15    that dozens of people had been injured in putting out a fire in a school.

16    I can't remember the name of that school just now.  Anyway, in trying to

17    extinguish the fire, as it had been shelled, they called me out to see

18    whether there was anything we could do to assist them.  So we opened a

19    dental clinic.  We found some material and some also medical material in

20    the local clinic, and I managed to operate on those people.  I started in

21    the afternoon and went on working until 4.00 a.m.

22            Four or five of them could not be sent home.  They had serious

23    injuries that could lead to subsequent haemorrhage and complications so I

24    asked the neighbours to provide some mattresses and things, and I kept the

25    patients there, and I stayed with them, of course, together with a nurse,

Page 1682

 1    two technicians, and another doctor, a general practitioner.  And we

 2    stayed there with them.  And from that day on, there were injured people

 3    coming in on a daily basis and the needs were increasing.

 4       Q.   I'm sorry, if I may move forward in time, Dr. Hajir, as time is

 5    pressing on us.  For the period from September of 1992 through to August

 6    of 1994 is the period on which I would like to concentrate.  And could you

 7    tell us, firstly, did the shelling and the sniping of civilians continue

 8    from September 1992 onwards through 1993 and into 1994?

 9       A.   Throughout -- you see, every day there were periods of ceasefires,

10    but you still had to be careful, because there would be isolated shells.

11    But those days were few and far between, days with reduced shelling and

12    reduced sniping.  On an average, we had 10 to 15 injuries a day.

13       Q.   And you say that is an average.  Do you mean by that, Doctor -- do

14    you mean that that was an average through the whole period?  In other

15    words, if we take the whole of 1993, would that have been still the daily

16    average, roughly?

17       A.   I gave you an average for the whole war, but 1993 it could have

18    been a higher number, but I have no statistics, so I can't be precise

19    about that.

20       Q.   And of the casualties that you received into your hospital in

21    Dobrinja, can you tell us how many were civilian patients and how many may

22    have been military patients, i.e., wounded soldiers?

23       A.   In 1992, there were really very few soldiers, maybe up to 3 per

24    cent of all injuries, because there was no army.  The army was in the

25    process of being formed.  I think it was in August or September, something

Page 1683

 1    like that, I don't know exactly.  So for you to be able to say that any of

 2    the injured were soldiers, during the war, I don't know what to say.  The

 3    vast majority of the injured throughout the war were civilians, because

 4    the military had a certain system of shifts.  They would go to the front

 5    every five days or something.  And there were few occasions when they were

 6    in actual direct confrontation.

 7       Q.   Sir, would the persons treated for wounds in your Dobrinja

 8    hospital have included women or children or elderly people?

 9       A.   Yes, indeed.  A shell makes no selection.  If you fire a shell in

10    a housing area, it's only logical to expect that among the casualties

11    there would be women and children.

12       Q.   And what about such casualties, women and children, in respect of

13    the issue of sniping?  Did you treat women and/or children or the elderly

14    in respect of bullet wounds from the sniping that occurred?

15       A.   During the war, there were various news agencies, reporters, CNN,

16    and others, and they asked me what was the most difficult moment for me in

17    the wartime, during the war.  For me, the worst was when a 7-year-old

18    child was hit directly in the heart.  This sniper must have been able to

19    see that it was a child.  He has special sights.  And he was hit directly

20    in the heart.  And during the five minutes it took to bring the child into

21    hospital, he had died.  So that was not an isolated case; there were many.

22    There were mutilations and so on.

23       Q.   Dr. Hajir, as regards the civilian population of Dobrinja at that

24    time through from September 1992 to the middle of 1994, what did the

25    people have to do to obtain water and food?  Was it readily available?

Page 1684

 1    Did they have to go to places to get it?

 2       A.   That was indeed the worst side of the war.  To cut off the water,

 3    300.000 or 350.000 inhabitants of Dobrinja at the time.  I don't know how

 4    to explain it to you.  None of us counts how many litres of water we

 5    consume per day, but you can imagine when one has to carry a five-litre

 6    jerrycan and queue up at a well to get it, and it would happen not once,

 7    several times, that, among the crowd lining up for water, a shell would

 8    fall.  I apologise for speaking like this; it took me three years after

 9    the war for my brain to recover to be able to think and work properly

10    because all those injuries passed through my hands.  I was in charge of

11    the hospital and the logistics of the hospital, and so on.  So it's very

12    hard for me to remember numbers and things.

13       Q.   And can you, when -- you have said numbers are difficult to

14    remember, but can you give us an indication of the total number of persons

15    that you treated in your hospital in Dobrinja during the war?  Just a

16    rough figure.

17       A.   There were several thousand injuries.  I didn't count them.  But

18    somebody told me about 16.000, among whom there were many who were injured

19    passing through the tunnel.  This tunnel was about 120, 130 centimetres in

20    height, so you had to bend down to pass through, and every other person

21    who passed through had to straighten himself up - the tunnel was about 800

22    metres long - and he would hurt himself on the iron bars in the tunnels,

23    so there were injuries of that kind too.  There were other injuries, not

24    solely those due to the fire.  There was also self-inflicted injuries, but

25    these were small in number.

Page 1685

 1       Q.   Can you give us any idea, then, of the total number of casualties

 2    from shelling and sniping who passed through your Dobrinja hospital?

 3    Clearly, if you can't remember, that's -- please say so.

 4       A.   I cannot, really.  Please, it really is difficult for me.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall whether your hospital itself was ever

 6    hit by any shell fire or by any sniping?

 7       A.   Yes, several times.  There were hits around the hospital, because

 8    the hospital was on the ground floor, and above it there were seven or

 9    eight storeys, I don't know exactly, so it couldn't be hit but the

10    building itself was hit several times.  There were shells in front of the

11    hospital, next to the hospital.  There were medical staff injured who

12    would be coming and going from work.  So I'm really very bad with figures,

13    but you can check this out.

14       Q.   Doctor, was your -- was the building in which you had the hospital

15    marked in any way to indicate that it was a medical facility?

16       A.   At first, I must admit, it wasn't.  It never occurred to us,

17    because it was an improvised hospital.  I told you, it was just a group of

18    medical workers who organised themselves, and I must be quite honest, it

19    didn't occur to me at the time.  But two or three months later, somebody

20    drew our attention to this.  So we didn't put a sign right on top of the

21    building, but just above the actual hospital floor, a Red Cross sign, two

22    or three months into the war.

23       Q.   You've referred to the shelling in respect of the hospital.  What

24    about sniping?  Were any people sniped at in or near the hospital?

25       A.   I don't know.  It was our good fortune that the hospital was well

Page 1686

 1    protected, so the hospital itself was not sniped at, because it was

 2    difficult to reach it with a sniper.  Probably that's the reason.

 3       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Dr. Hajir, did you have any ambulances to

 4    collect casualties and bring them to your hospital?

 5       A.   Yes, there were several ambulances.  We used the iron from the

 6    sewerage systems, lids, the lids, the covers, and we protected the

 7    vehicles with them to protect the people inside from sniping and shells

 8    that may not hit the vehicle itself directly.  At first, we used various

 9    heavy books and lined the walls of the van with these books so that the

10    sniper bullet couldn't pass through and hit somebody inside.  And all

11    these ambulances were marked as ambulances.  I think one that was used for

12    the longest period of time I suggested should be put in a museum to show

13    how many holes it has.

14       Q.   Do you recall how many holes were in it?

15       A.   No.  No.  A large number.

16       Q.   Doctor, in what manner were your ambulances marked to point them

17    out to be ambulances?

18       A.   With the Red Cross sign that an ambulance usually has.  We didn't

19    have the lights, but we just had this Red Cross sign.

20       Q.   You've referred to one ambulance being shot at and hit.  What

21    about other ambulances?  Was this the same fate for all your vehicles?

22       A.   Yes, the same.  It was extremely dangerous to drive them, you

23    know.  Our vehicles would drive at 120 kilometres an hour to reach Kosevo

24    or the cantonal hospital.  If we were overcrowded with patients, then we

25    had to transport some patients to those hospitals.  If it was a

Page 1687

 1    neurosurgical injury, an injury of the thorax or another complicated

 2    injury of large blood vessels, then these people had to be transported to

 3    other hospitals, and it was very dangerous to do that.

 4       Q.   And in fact, that was the next question I would ask you, Doctor.

 5    In connection with transporting people on for further treatment in other

 6    hospitals, did you find that you had to take any special precautions, or

 7    could you do that task safely?

 8       A.   Drivers were very brave, so no one tried to evade their duties.

 9    They always carried out their duties and came back.  Two drivers were

10    injured, one was killed.  I always listened to their advice, and whatever

11    we could do to follow it, we would do.

12       Q.   Now, Dr. Hajir, I would ask you:  Later on in the war, when

13    clearly defences were better, let us say later in 1993 and into 1994, were

14    there any military installations or military presence close to your

15    hospital?  By that, I mean the ABiH defence.

16       A.   Yes, there were.  There was a brigade, the Dobrinja Brigade, which

17    was formed later, but most of these people had light arms.  So I really

18    never did my military service, I have no understanding of weapons.  But

19    people were coming from town to assist as well, yes.

20       Q.   That being said, were any military stationed actually in your

21    hospital in the latter stages, or in the apartments above, or was that

22    still civilian?

23       A.   In hospital, I can say under oath, and there were never people

24    stationed there.  Soldiers would come occasionally, but it was never a

25    military facility.  In fact, I warned the commander that they mustn't even

Page 1688

 1    shoot within a diameter of 50 metres of the hospital because the lives of

 2    all those people would be at risk.  So that there were none in the

 3    hospital.  Whether there were any in the apartments, I really don't know.

 4    But a military facility, a barracks or something used by the military for

 5    military purposes, that did not exist.  These were small apartments, you

 6    see.

 7       Q.   I'll turn your memory, if I may, Doctor, to one incident.  Do you

 8    remember any particular incident occurring on Bajram in 1993?

 9            MR. BLAXILL:  My learned friend has a point.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just so that we

12    are quite sure, I don't know whether the witness mentioned in his last

13    statement which hospital he was referring to so that we know exactly what

14    we're talking about.  Because a moment ago he spoke about Kosevo and other

15    hospitals.

16            MR. BLAXILL:  I will clarify, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although this would be a perfect question for

18    cross-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so that you will not interrupt the

19    examination-in-chief.  But, Mr. Blaxill, if you would be in a position to

20    clarify.

21            MR. BLAXILL:  I certainly will.

22       Q.   Dr. Hajir, you've just been referring to "the hospital" in

23    response to my questions about military presence.  Were you referring, of

24    course, to your hospital in Dobrinja?  Is that right?  Thank you, sir.

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 1689

 1       Q.   Now, Dr. Hajir, I refer again to the matter of Bajram, 1993.  Do

 2    you recall a particular incident that day in Dobrinja?

 3       A.   I know that on that day, in the morning - I believe that's how it

 4    was - all of a sudden we heard that there was a large number of injured.

 5    Some football match was being played, there was some sort of competition

 6    in Dobrinja 3.  I think it was Dobrinja 3, but I'm not a hundred per cent

 7    sure, I really don't know whether it was.  I think it was B, Dobrinja 3B

 8    .  Two or three shells - I'm not quite sure - fell.  It was a quiet

 9    morning.  All of a sudden you could hear two or three shells.  I'm really

10    not sure about this.  But all of a sudden these shells -- there was a

11    large number of injured.  We've never had so many injured arriving in the

12    hospital at one time.  The entire hospital, all the wards in the hospital,

13    were full.

14            Unfortunately, there are various cases in history and various

15    writers provide various statistics on the number of those who were

16    injured, but what I do know for sure is that those who came to the

17    hospital did not all come at that time, because there was an enormous

18    number of seriously wounded people.  Some people perhaps came into the

19    hospital in the evening or the following day or two days later.  But as I

20    say, there are various statistics, but it was about 130 to 140 injured.

21            And in our morgue - I'm not sure of the exact number, I don't want

22    to raise controversial issues, but I think there were about 130 or -- 113

23    to 14 dead.  Don't take this for something that's a hundred per cent sure,

24    but I think those are the numbers.

25       Q.   Dr. Hajir, I will ask you a little bit more about record-making in

Page 1690

 1    the future, so I would like, in a sense, a yes or no answer.  Would any

 2    record have been kept by your hospital of the treatment of those patients?

 3       A.   They attempted to keep records, there was a service that kept

 4    records, but I personally did not.

 5       Q.   Now, Doctor, there's just one small question I would ask you:

 6    When shells landed on Dobrinja, were you ever able to hear anything of the

 7    shell prior to the explosion?  Did it make any sound as it came in?

 8       A.   I don't know.  I can't remember.

 9            MR. BLAXILL:  If I might just take a moment, Your Honours, to

10    confirm.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

13            MR. BLAXILL:  I'm obliged for your indulgence, Your Honours.  We

14    will not keep you very much longer, so my time estimate, I think, was

15    over-generous to the time we required.  I will just move on to the last

16    topic.

17       Q.   Dr. Hajir, I've mentioned the question of records.  Can you give

18    us an indication of how your records were kept in the hospital, or the

19    difficulties you had so doing?

20       A.   The Dobrinja hospital was an improvised one.  It didn't have such

21    services.  It didn't have these various services which kept records.  So

22    we had to do everything from scratch.  There were people who were

23    responsible for keeping certain records, as far as this was possible.  But

24    when everything is totally chaotic and when you have 130, 140 people who

25    are injured and who arrive and when you just can't pass through those

Page 1691

 1    injured people, then it's very difficult to keep records in such a

 2    situation in an adequate way.  You can always object to this.  I was

 3    not -- I was personally not a hundred per cent content with this - I'm a

 4    precise person - but I wasn't happy with the way the records were being

 5    kept.  These perhaps are details, but I'm a perfectionist, you know.

 6       Q.   Dr. Hajir, even with the limitations that you faced, I presume

 7    that you were able, at some point, to have records created in respect of a

 8    number of patients.  Is that right?

 9       A.   That's right.

10       Q.   I'm going to ask you to look in a moment, Dr. Hajir, at some

11    documents that we will show to you.

12            MR. BLAXILL:  Your Honours, there are the two listed exhibits I

13    would like to have shown to Dr. Hajir, and they are numbered 1183 and

14    2506A.  I will make one point in respect of these at this point, Your

15    Honours, and that is this:  ERN number ranges are given because these

16    documents are selected from batches of documents.  They are relevant to

17    certain victims; other documents in the batch were not relevant to the

18    victims.  And as a result, the specific ERNs will not be consequential

19    from start to finish of the range, because this is simply a selection of

20    documents, if that assists you.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  I think that is an explanation that will help us.

22    Yes, would you please, Mr. Usher.

23            MR. BLAXILL:

24       Q.   Dr. Hajir, I'd ask you, sir, just to look through the documents

25    that have been placed in front of you, and the question is very simple in

Page 1692

 1    that:  Are you able to recognise those documents, and do they represent

 2    records from your Dobrinja hospital in respect of the persons named in

 3    them?

 4       A.   These are documents from the hospital.  I don't remember the

 5    individual persons.  You know, I can't remember the names of these

 6    persons, but these documents are from the hospital.

 7       Q.   Is it correct, Dr. Hajir, that your signature appears indeed as

 8    the senior consultant on a number of those documents?

 9       A.   That's correct.

10       Q.   Thank you, Dr. Hajir.

11       A.   Thank you.

12            MR. BLAXILL: I, in fact, have just one last question, if -- I'll

13    wait until Your Honours have finished looking at the documents, as you see

14    fit.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed with ...

16            MR. BLAXILL:

17       Q.   I have just one last question, Dr. Hajir.  Can you just tell the

18    Chamber the very first time you performed a surgical operation in

19    Dobrinja, what were the conditions you were working under, the very first

20    surgical procedure there, sir?

21       A.   Impossible conditions.  It was really necessary to have a lot of

22    courage, but there's nothing to be done about it.  The people had to be

23    helped.  It was on a simple examination table.  One was on one's knees,

24    using -- we were using stomatological instruments.  We had very few

25    instruments, but the important thing was to stop the bleeding and to

Page 1693

 1    prevent the people from dying because of loss of blood or because of

 2    totally banal things.  But it was very difficult.

 3       Q.   What about the light?  What did you use for light?

 4       A.   We used simple candles, three candles.  They would carry three

 5    candles and approach the wounded with these candles.  It was very

 6    dangerous.  The situation was one that you would find in a cave, but there

 7    was nothing else to be done about it.

 8       Q.   And I regret my ignorance as to the technical word for those

 9    instruments, but does that mean they were dental tools that you were using

10    to perform surgery?

11       A.   Yes.  They were instruments, sort of pliers, if I can call them in

12    this way.  Various instruments that dentists use for their work.

13       Q.   Dr. Hajir, that concludes the questions that I have for you, sir.

14    I thank you.

15            MR. BLAXILL:  And I thank Your Honours.  That concludes the

16    examination-in-chief.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Blaxill.  We've still got

18    enough time to start with the cross-examination, so if Ms. Pilipovic would

19    proceed.

20            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                          Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

22       Q.   Hello.  In the course of the main cross-examination [as

23    interpreted] you said that when the conflict started, you were in Vrace.

24    When the conflict started, you left Vrace with your family.  When did this

25    occur?

Page 1694

 1       A.   About the 18th of April, 1992.

 2       Q.   In view of the fact that you lived at Vrace, what conflict existed

 3    there, and between which sides?

 4       A.   Well, there were rumours going round that it was a war, things

 5    like that, and most people were psychologically prepared for that, for

 6    something like that.  I know what I saw.  Below my house, there were two

 7    tanks, for instance, and behind the bypass at Vrace -- I don't know how

 8    far you know the city of Sarajevo, but as you go to Vrace, there was a

 9    tank on one side and another tank on the other side, and around the police

10    academy or school there was a machine-gun or something like that.  I don't

11    know what it was but there was a weapon positioned there.  That's what I

12    was able to see.

13            I didn't go anywhere else.  I just went to the hospital several

14    times and back, up until the 18th of April.  There were checkpoints.  They

15    would look at my papers.  But people knew me and respected me and I could

16    pass with my ID card.  After the 18th, that was more difficult.  It was

17    very difficult to move around.  There was shooting --

18       Q.   Thank you, sir.  In your answer, you mentioned the police school.

19    Do you happen to know that there was a conflict in the police school; and

20    if you do know about that, could you tell us between whom the conflict

21    was.

22       A.   Yes.  Well, I did hear there was a clash of some kind between the

23    police, the policemen who were there, and some others.  I can't give you

24    an exact answer.  I really don't know exactly what happened, but I do know

25    that there was a clash.

Page 1695

 1       Q.   Do you know what the ethnic composition of the police force in

 2    Sarajevo was?

 3       A.   No, I don't.

 4       Q.   Do you know that there were Serbs and Croats in the police force?

 5       A.   Yes, I did know that.

 6       Q.   Did you know that the clash in the police school broke out between

 7    the ethnic Serbs and ethnic Muslims in the police force, the policemen?

 8       A.   No, I really didn't know that.

 9       Q.   You said that you came to Dobrinja.  What part of Dobrinja did you

10    come to?

11       A.   Dobrinja 2.

12       Q.   You also said that Dobrinja was divided into five parts.  Could

13    you explain what those five parts were.  What did that mean?

14       A.   Well, as it was being built, it was given names, and there was

15    Dobrinja 1, 2, the Cemadjesta [phoen] area, and then as they went on

16    constructing the buildings, there was 3, 4, and 5.  That's what I know.

17       Q.   While you were in Dobrinja, you said you moved around, but did you

18    go to all the parts of Dobrinja?

19       A.   Well, you couldn't do that, you see, because the main road with

20    the shopping area was where people would walk around, talk about the war,

21    exchange stories of what they had heard on the news.  But no, I wasn't

22    able to move around the whole of Dobrinja.

23       Q.   Did you ever go to Dobrinja 5?

24       A.   Dobrinja 5, no.

25       Q.   Why?

Page 1696

 1       A.   I had no business there.  My job didn't take me there, so I didn't

 2    go.

 3       Q.   Do you know --

 4       A.   However, madam, if I may just add one thing.  If you're talking

 5    about the whole -- throughout the war, there was a clinic belonging to the

 6    hospital there, so I went to see that outpatient's department once or

 7    twice, whether they had everything they needed.  So that's the only

 8    occasion that I went to Dobrinja 5, in fact.

 9       Q.   While you moved around Dobrinja, did you happen to notice

10    organised groups of young men with light weapons, as you said today, a

11    moment ago?  And it's in the transcript.  You said that at 9:30.

12       A.   Yes.  On two or three occasions I did come across these young men

13    with some rifles.  I would see two or three cars moving around in circles

14    in Dobrinja.

15       Q.   Did you know who those young men were?

16       A.   No.  At least, not at that time, no.

17       Q.   What about later on?  Did you learn who they were?

18       A.   Later on, I learnt that they were the defenders, people who were

19    there to defend themselves from the army.

20       Q.   Did you have a chance to meet any of them?

21       A.   Well, they would come by, bringing in wounded and injured persons.

22    They came to the hospital so I did come into contact with some of them,

23    yes, although I didn't know them previously.

24       Q.   When they came to you, did they have the light weapons that you

25    say they had in their possession?

Page 1697

 1       A.   Sometimes they did, yes.

 2       Q.   Do you know where they were put up?

 3       A.   No, I really don't know.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us something about the Dobrinja residential area?

 5    What are the districts bordering on Dobrinja?

 6       A.   There is Mojmilo, which is the Olympic village and which was built

 7    in 1984 to accommodate the journalists, and later on people took up

 8    residence in these apartments; then there's Lukavica.  You know the place

 9    called Lukavica and the Lukavica barracks, whether that is to the east or

10    wherever.  Then there is the airport and the airport settlement, the old

11    airport and the new airport.  There's an airport and then a road and then

12    behind that there's Butmir and Ilijas and so on.  And on that same side,

13    towards town, facing town, you have Nedzarici, the barracks, and the

14    settlement, or rather, Nedzarici was the name of the village originally.

15       Q.   What about Vojnicko Polje and Alipasino Polje?

16       A.   Yes, that's across, opposite Mojmilo but Alipasino Polje is

17    further down, towards town.

18       Q.   Can you tell us about the Vojnicko Polje and Alipasino Polje

19    apartment blocks?  What were they built of?

20       A.   Well, I don't know, but I think they were built of concrete.

21       Q.   How high were these buildings?

22       A.   Well, they're fairly high.  They're high-rise buildings.  Some of

23    them are higher, others are lower, but how many storeys they have, I

24    really can't say.

25       Q.   What about the Nedzarici settlement?

Page 1698

 1       A.   Nedzarici were mostly low buildings, one or two storeys at the

 2    most.

 3       Q.   You also said that when you arrived in Dobrinja, that at Mojmilo,

 4    the Yugoslav army had set up positions.

 5       A.   On the hill, Mojmilo hill.

 6       Q.   Yes, I apologise.  Mojmilo hill.  That's what I meant.  Do you

 7    happen to know whether throughout the conflict, as you say, from April

 8    1992 until the end of the conflict, for us, 1994 is relevant, whether the

 9    Yugoslav army units were on that hill at that time?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   When were they there?

12       A.   They were there at the beginning; in April, May, and June.  In

13    June, the military police, if I can call it that - and it was actually

14    called the military police, led by Kerim Lucarevic - they hit that part.

15    So I don't know.  And that position was destroyed, as far as I was able to

16    see and as far as I know.  I think that happened in June, which means that

17    it was there for two, possibly three months.

18       Q.   You mentioned Kerim Lucarevic and the military police.  What was

19    he in the military police?

20       A.   He was the commander, the chief of the military police.

21       Q.   That military police, what was -- within what formation was it

22    established, if you know?

23       A.   I really don't know.

24       Q.   Do you happen to know how many members the military police

25    numbered?

Page 1699

 1       A.   I really can't say.  I don't know.

 2       Q.   May we agree that you said that the military police, whose

 3    commander was Kerim Lucarevic, in June took control of Mojmilo hill?

 4       A.   Well, no, it didn't take control of the point, no.  It just --

 5    that is to say, the tanks and the APCs, they were destroyed, but they

 6    didn't actually go up to Mojmilo.  They didn't mount Mojmilo.

 7       Q.   Were there any soldiers, after Kerim Lucarevic police climbed up

 8    Mojmilo hill, were there any soldiers during the war there?

 9       A.   I don't know whether you believe me or not, but I really don't

10    know.  It's a hill, and Lukavica lies the other side of it.  So it was

11    dangerous.  It was an open space.  You can see it from Gavrica hill.  You

12    can see it very well.  And that's where the tanks were stationed.  And

13    they were strong tank formations up there.  So I myself really didn't see

14    them, no.

15       Q.   Do you happen to know where the headquarters of Kerim Lucarevic's

16    command of the military police was?  Where was his staff and headquarters?

17       A.   I really don't know.  I can't remember now.  Perhaps it will come

18    to me.  If you ask me later on, I might remember.

19       Q.   You also said that the brigade was set up on Dobrinja after the BH

20    army was formed.  Since when was that brigade up at Dobrinja?

21       A.   The commander of the brigade was there when I came to Dobrinja.

22    He was sitting about in the local community and talking.  Now, whether he

23    was assigned there by anybody, I can't say.  I don't really know.  But I

24    do know that he was there, he was talking to the people, he wanted to

25    organise the people, and that kind of thing.  Later on, by decision of the

Page 1700

 1    Presidency - I don't know when that decision came, whether in August or

 2    whenever - to declare a state of war, then the army was set out and then

 3    that brigade was established later on, and he remained the commander of

 4    the brigade.

 5       Q.   You came to Dobrinja on the 18th of April, 1992, did you not?

 6       A.   Yes, thereabouts.

 7       Q.   When did you talk to the commander of the brigade for the first

 8    time?

 9       A.   He was not the brigade commander; he was just a man who was

10    interested in that -- there wasn't a brigade.  The brigade wasn't formed

11    yet.

12       Q.   But you said there was a brigade and that he was the commander.

13    Now I'm asking you now when the brigade was formed.

14       A.   That was later on, not at the beginning.  I said that at the

15    beginning there were no soldiers.  There was no army.  I went

16    chronologically.  Following a decision by the Presidency to declare a

17    state of war, then the army began to be formed, the BH army, and that's

18    when the brigade was officially established in Dobrinja.

19       Q.   I'm asking you when that was.

20       A.   I don't know.  Towards the end of 1992.  I can't say exactly, give

21    you an exact date.

22       Q.   Do you know what that gentleman's name was, the man who later

23    became commander of the brigade?

24       A.   Ismet Hadzic.

25       Q.   Do you know, did you know then, or did you happen to learn whether

Page 1701

 1    he was an army man?

 2       A.   No.  He was an employee in the Energoinvest company.

 3       Q.   Can you explain how he came to command the brigade?

 4       A.   I can't explain that.  I have already said that he was somebody

 5    who was interested in things like that.  He tried to organise a defence.

 6    Now, I really can't say.  I can't tell you.  I'm here under oath, so I

 7    would say, had I known that he was cooperating with someone, but I don't

 8    know, neither did I learn about that later on.  All I do know is that he

 9    was interested in setting up a defence and he started organising these

10    groups, probably, and later on, as he had organised the groups, he was --

11    he became the commander.  He was appointed commander.  That's what I

12    think.  I can't say for sure, but those are my impressions.

13       Q.   You said that you came to Dobrinja on the 18th of April because it

14    was peaceful in Dobrinja.  Can you explain why Mr. Ismet Hadzic walked

15    around Dobrinja, trying to organise, as you said, these people?

16       A.   Well, even a blind man living in that part of town, that part of

17    Sarajevo and Bosnia, would know that a war was imminent.  Towns were

18    falling one by one, Zvornik and so on.  Delegations would go, as far as I

19    recall from television, Biljana Plavsic went to Bijeljina when the

20    paramilitary formations entered.  So even a blind man would clearly see

21    that war was imminent and that war was coming.  You didn't have to have

22    much intelligence to realise that.

23       Q.   Are you a member of a party?

24       A.   No, never.  Well, let me be quite clear.  I was a member of

25    Haris's party.  I was there for perhaps a year.  But after that, no.

Page 1702

 1       Q.   When was that?

 2       A.   Immediately after the war.

 3       Q.   You said today that there was a barracks in Nedzarici and in

 4    Lukavica.  Do you happen to know how many barracks existed in the city of

 5    Sarajevo?

 6       A.   I don't know.  I could enumerate the barracks.  There was one at

 7    Bistrik.  There was another one up there - what's the name of the place -

 8    Jajce or whatever, the building above Sarajevo.  Those were Tito's

 9    barracks.  Those were the barracks that I know.  I don't know any others.

10       Q.   When the brigade was formed in Dobrinja, where was the brigade

11    headquarters?

12       A.   The headquarters were in a ground floor building, 150 metres away

13    from the hospital.

14       Q.   Was this ground floor facility in a residential block or in a

15    commercial building?

16       A.   Well, it was a commercial building, but there were also some

17    apartments in it.

18       Q.   Do you happen to know how many soldiers the brigade numbered?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Asked by my learned friend, you said that you remembered an

21    incident that took place on Bajram.  Would you tell us when that occurred?

22       A.   Madam, I told you straight away, and I hope you'll understand me

23    and the efforts I'm making and my general fatigue, because every injured

24    person went through my hands, but I think that it was sometime in June

25    1993 or thereabouts.  I really can't give you an exact date, because

Page 1703

 1    injured people and wounded people kept coming in.  There was a constant

 2    flow.  And when you're doing your job, when you're out to save the lives

 3    of people, it's difficult to remember things like dates.  But I would say

 4    thereabouts.

 5       Q.   When did you form the health institution at Dobrinja which later

 6    on became a hospital?

 7       A.   I answered that question a moment ago.  It was at the beginning of

 8    June, perhaps the 5th, 7th, 8th, I'm not quite sure, but it was the

 9    beginning of June.

10       Q.   And which part of Dobrinja was that in?

11       A.   Dobrinja 2.

12       Q.   In your hospital, did you treat people from Dobrinja 1, 3, 5 as

13    well, and 4?

14       A.   Not only them, but everybody that came to us.  Dobrinja is in a

15    geographical position that it forms an exit to Sarajevo through the

16    tunnel, so it was an entrance/exit point, with many people passing by.

17    There was shelling at the entrance and exit on many occasions, and people,

18    within they weren't using the tunnel, they had to run across the airstrip

19    to come to Butmir, and many people were injured crossing.  So people

20    coming from town into Dobrinja and going from Dobrinja into town.  There

21    were a lot of people and a lot of injured and wounded people as well.

22       Q.   You told us that the brigade's headquarters were located on the

23    ground floor of a building that was an apartment block and an office

24    building.  Do you happen to know the position of that brigade?

25       A.   I really don't know.  As I say, I'm not a soldier.  I never

Page 1704

 1    carried a rifle, and I wasn't really interested in anything like that, to

 2    tell you the truth.

 3       Q.   In June, when the incident occurred, according to you, you said

 4    that it was Dobrinja 3B.

 5       A.   Well, that's what I think.  That's what people said, that it was

 6    Dobrinja 3B.

 7       Q.   Did you take in those patients?

 8       A.   Yes.  All the patients came to me, and I have already told you

 9    that we had the largest number of patients ever that day, so you couldn't

10    go into any of the rooms.  You had to step between the bodies on tiptoe.

11    We transported a number to town, and then 90 of them were in fact treated

12    in the hospital.

13            MR. BLAXILL:  May I intervene for one moment, Your Honours.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15            MR. BLAXILL:  Looking at the transcript, it's really a matter of

16    clarification.  My learned friend was questioning about the starting of

17    the hospital and the month of June was referred to.  We then get to an

18    incident and a month of June is referred to, but we haven't clarified the

19    years, and I think we're talking different years.  I think it would assist

20    to have that matter clarified.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please clarify this, Ms. Pilipovic,

22    and at the same time, think of a suitable moment for our break.  Yes.

23    Thank you.

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   Could you be more specific, sir.  The hospital was set up in June

Page 1705

 1    of what year?

 2       A.   Not June; May.  May.

 3       Q.   You're going to mix me up.  You said June.  Tell us which year.

 4       A.   It was the 5th of May sometime -- the 5th of May, 1992.

 5       Q.   And what year did the incident take place that was mentioned?  And

 6    we were talking about the football match.

 7       A.   In 1993, I suppose.  I really don't know dates, but I do know when

 8    the hospital was established, whereas the stadium incident was 1993.

 9            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I think

10    this is a good moment to take a break.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.  We'll then adjourn until

12    11.00.

13                          --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Before we bring in the witness, I still owe you a

16    decision on the objection raised by the Prosecution against the admittance

17    into evidence -- admission into evidence of document prenumbered D24,

18    which has been shown to the witness Dr. Mulaomerovic.

19            The Chamber agrees with the Prosecution that no attention

20    whatsoever has been paid to the content of this document, so the mere fact

21    on whether there was a stamp on it, whether there was any signature on it,

22    shows no relevance, as long as you do not go into the content of the

23    document as such.  So to that extent, the objection should be sustained.

24            On the other hand, the Chamber is entitled to ask the parties, to

25    request the parties to introduce any additional evidence, and as a matter

Page 1706

 1    of fact, the Chamber implicitly has done so by putting questions regarding

 2    the content of this document after the objection was raised.  So

 3    therefore, although the objection as such was justified at that moment,

 4    nevertheless, the document will be admitted into evidence but based upon

 5    the questioning regarding the content by the Chamber itself.

 6            I think then we can proceed with the cross-examination.  Would you

 7    please bring in Mr. Hajir.

 8            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, whilst he's being brought in, might I

 9    ask when you propose to have the Status Conference?

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I propose to have the Status Conference from 1.00

11    until a quarter to 2.00.  So we'll have a break which is a bit longer than

12    usual, since the courtroom has to be prepared for the Status Conference. I

13    therefore suggest that we have another break from half past 12.00 until

14    1.00, half an hour, and then have a Status Conference for three quarters

15    of an hour.

16            Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.  And I point out to you that we

17    are approximately at 50 per cent of the time used by the Prosecution in

18    their examination-in-chief.

19            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20       Q.   Witness, before the break, we were speaking about the incident

21    that occurred in June 1993.  Did you admit the patients who were injured

22    at that match?

23       A.   I did.

24       Q.   In your institution, did you keep a record of the admission of

25    patients?

Page 1707

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   In what way?

 3       A.   There's a protocol that we improvised, a protocol into which we

 4    entered the names of those patients and the year of birth and what kind of

 5    injury they had.  And when patients were admitted to stay, a case history

 6    had to be kept, how he was injured, how he was treated, what the operation

 7    was, and so on.

 8       Q.   Did you enter into this protocol the fact whether it was a

 9    civilian or a military man that was injured?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Does your institution have any such document?

12       A.   It does not.

13       Q.   When I say "document," I mean a protocol.  In your institution, do

14    you have this protocol that you kept for the period from the time you

15    founded the hospital for as long as it was operational?  And I'm

16    specifically interested in the period up to August 1994.  Is there a

17    protocol in your institution?

18       A.   All the documents of the hospital, when the hospital was closed,

19    was handed over to the museum of the city of Sarajevo.  Therefore, those

20    protocols do exist and they are in the museum of Sarajevo.

21       Q.   Would you tell me, please:  Would that be in the archives of the

22    city of Sarajevo as part of the museum?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   When, on the 1st of June, when the incident occurred, you were

25    admitting patients who, as you said, were injured during that football

Page 1708

 1    match, did you list them, and in what way?  What entries did you make when

 2    admitting a patient?  What entries in that protocol?

 3       A.   I told you a moment ago: The first and last name, the year of

 4    birth, and the kind of injury.  If the patient is being transported into

 5    town, then we note "transfer" or "transport," and with a piece of paper

 6    saying what kind of injury, what was done, whether there was infusion, any

 7    kind of surgery done.  This piece of paper accompanies the patient when he

 8    is transported to other hospitals in town.  As for the other patients who

 9    remained with us, the minor injuries were treated, and a document, a piece

10    of paper, a report, was drawn up saying what the diagnosis was, what was

11    done, what medicines were prescribed, and the doctor signed this document.

12       Q.   In that document on admission, did you note down whether it was a

13    civilian or a soldier?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   When admitting patients on the 1st of June, you said you admitted

16    roughly 140, and there were 13 or 14 persons killed.  Did you note down

17    for these people whether they were soldiers or civilians?

18       A.   To be quite honest, we never took note of whether a patient was a

19    military man, a civilian, or anything else.  We didn't take note of that.

20            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to show

21    the witness a document which the Defence was given by the Prosecution,

22    X2506, and I will show the witness two documents, number 00267861 and

23    00267862, for the witness to confirm whether these are documents from the

24    hospital at Dobrinja and to read out what these documents say - this is

25    very brief, very short - to tell us whether this is a document from the

Page 1709

 1    hospital and whose signature it bears.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Will that be one document or two documents, so in

 3    order to prenumber them?  Because I expect you to tender them into

 4    evidence and not just have them marked for identification.

 5            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the moment, the Defence will

 6    not tender them until the witness authenticates them.  They are the same

 7    document but only on two pages.  The point is for the witness to tell us

 8    whether this is one and the same document coming from the institution that

 9    he worked in.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.  Ms. Pilipovic,

11    do you have copies for the Bench and the Prosecution is aware of what

12    document it is, or do you provide copies at this moment?

13            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friends

14    have that document, because it was given to us by them.  But --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, if you have got 5.000 documents and

16    it's not indicated before which document you'll use, I think it will be

17    time-saving if you provide with a copy, or otherwise I give the

18    Prosecution the time at this moment to find this document.  And the Bench

19    certainly has no copies yet, so ...

20            MR. BLAXILL:  Your Honour, if I may say at this point it appears

21    not to be one of the ones selected that forms part of our exhibits that we

22    propose to tender, so we would appreciate if we could have copies.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you have any copies available, Ms.

24    Pilipovic, because it would take too much time to find them among 5.000.

25            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on these pages, we

Page 1710

 1    have the number of the document, and we can see the document on the

 2    screen.  And I hope it will be sufficient for all of us to see it on the

 3    screen and for the witness to tell us whether it comes from this

 4    institution.  But in the future, I will certainly make sure to copy these

 5    documents.  But they come under X2506, and there are 100 documents in that

 6    batch.  X2506.  We see the document on the screen now.  Could the witness

 7    tell us, please.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  I will allow you one question whether the witness

 9    recognises this document which is on our screen now.  But if you have any

10    further questions related to the document or if you intend to tender that

11    document into evidence, I'd like to have copies made, and perhaps they can

12    be made even during trial so that you proceed and have copies within a

13    couple of minutes.

14            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry to

16    have to interrupt, and thank you for giving me the floor.  We have

17    formally asked this Tribunal, on several occasions, to give us a legal

18    assistant in court, precisely to be able to deal with problems of this

19    kind.  We cannot have discussions --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I will allow you to raise these

21    kind of issues during the Status Conference.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.  I'll do that.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  We will now proceed with the examination of the

24    witness.  So one question is allowed, Ms. Pilipovic, and if you think you

25    should elaborate further on this document, they will first have to be

Page 1711

 1    copied, and perhaps meanwhile you could put other questions to the

 2    witness.  So --

 3            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   Witness, could you please confirm or tell us whether this is a

 5    document from your institution and that in the right-hand corner you have

 6    a name and the word "civilian."

 7       A.   This is not a document from the Dobrinja hospital.  I do not

 8    recognise this document.  It is not my signature.  It is not a signature

 9    of one of my associates.  So that I don't know where it comes from, but it

10    doesn't come from the Dobrinja hospital.

11       Q.   In the left-hand corner, it says State Hospital Dobrinja.  There's

12    a stamp.

13       A.   That is not a State Hospital.  It was never called the State

14    Hospital Dobrinja.

15            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's now see, since the document has been

17    shown to the witness, I suggest that it will be marked for identification

18    and that a copy will be provided to the Prosecution.  If you'd agree with

19    that procedure.  And a copy will be provided as well to the Bench.  I

20    think the copies, since once the document has been marked for

21    identification, a copy should be made anyhow for the registry, that we

22    make a few copies more and provide the parties with it.  Would that be a

23    procedure acceptable to the registry?

24            THE REGISTRAR:  The registry appreciates the Defence counsel make

25    their preparation in advance.

Page 1712

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do agree with you.  But just for the time

 2    being, I'm trying to solve this problem in respect of this document at the

 3    moment.  So if the original could be given at this moment to the registry,

 4    copies will be made, the original will be returned after it has been

 5    marked for identification to the parties.  The original to the Defence and

 6    a copy to the Prosecution.

 7            You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

 8            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   On that date, the 1st of June, 1993, when the incident occurred at

10    the football match, would you tell us, please, how far that facility is

11    from the entrance to the tunnel.

12       A.   I don't know exactly in metres, but 300 or 400, 300, 350 metres,

13    something like that.  If you were to go in a straight line.

14       Q.   You said that you had problems with people passing through the

15    tunnel.  Could you tell us why those people were using that tunnel?

16       A.   Well, you know, life has to go on.  There are people who have

17    relatives and they have various needs.  Maybe they left their children in

18    another town.  A town with 350.000 inhabitants, which numbered half a

19    million before the war, the population has certain needs.  They have to

20    leave town occasionally, and they used various means to break through the

21    blockade.  Before the tunnel was made, I said that people would run across

22    the airstrip, and many of them were killed and injured in doing so, and

23    that is what the tunnel was used for, to facilitate a breakthrough of the

24    blockade.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Did you sometimes go to the entrance and exit of the

Page 1713

 1    tunnel?

 2       A.   I passed through the tunnel twice.

 3       Q.   Did anyone provide security of the tunnel?

 4       A.   Yes.  The brigade from Butmir, several people who were members of

 5    the brigade.

 6       Q.   When you say "brigade," are you referring to the brigade of which

 7    the commander was Ismet Hadzic?

 8       A.   On the Dobrinja side, yes.

 9       Q.   Since you've said that there was a brigade in the territory of

10    Dobrinja as a military unit, did you find out, while treating patients who

11    were admitted from this football match that was played in June, did you

12    learn that there were members of that brigade at the football match?

13       A.   I wasn't sure.  That was a terrible day.  Who was the organiser, I

14    don't know, whether somebody was an organiser or not.  In fact, I told the

15    brigade commander that it was stupid to organise that in the middle of the

16    war.  He said he hadn't organise it.  Who did, I don't know.

17       Q.   As you spoke to the brigade commander in connection with that

18    event, as you yourself said, did the gentleman tell you that at that

19    football match there were brigade members, soldiers from the brigade

20    present?

21       A.   I didn't ask for each individual.  What I was interested in was to

22    help people, regardless who they may be.  I never made any distinction

23    among people.  All I cared about was their health.

24       Q.   And the commander, after this event, did he come to visit patients

25    in your institution?

Page 1714

 1       A.   Yes, he did.

 2       Q.   Do you know whether he was visiting his soldiers?

 3       A.   The commander would come almost every day, in the evening.  He

 4    visited all patients.  That is the kind of man he was.  He inquired about

 5    his health, whether they need anything, and so on.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

 7    the Defence has sufficient copies of a Prosecution document, in both B/C/S

 8    and English, and I would ask the usher to be kind enough to distribute

 9    this document to the parties.  And on this document I would like the

10    witness to read out the last paragraph of that report.  And if the witness

11    could tell us whether what is stated here regarding the wounded, whether

12    he has any comments to make regarding this paragraph.  It is document

13    02056604.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.  But our

15    procedure is that you should indicate whether the document you intend to

16    tender it into evidence or to have it marked for identification.  Even if

17    you are not sure about it, I'd like to know so that we know how to

18    proceed.  But you may now give it to the usher so that it can be presented

19    to the witness.

20            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this would be Defence

21    Exhibit D25, if it is admitted.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

23            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Page 2 of that document, last paragraph.

25            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

Page 1715

 1    this is a document received from the Prosecution, and on page 2, it says,

 2    line 2: "From two mortar shells of 82 millimetres which fell on the

 3    parking where football was being played, where a large number of observers

 4    were, six soldiers were killed and 55 were wounded."

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  In the -- let me just see.  In the translation, it

 6    says, "at this event five civilians are killed and 32 persons are

 7    wounded."  So let us just look at the original.  The translation certainly

 8    shows some problems, because if I just look at the numbers -- oh, is that

 9    what you wanted to ask about?  Because you are representing the content.

10    That certainly is a problem as far as arithmetics and/or translation is

11    concerned.

12            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

13    let me read it once again.  Could the page be turned, please.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a copy for the interpreter's booth?

15    Because I'd like -- yes, please.  I see that there are two parts in this

16    paragraph, and you're referring to the -- let me just see -- to the second

17    part.  You started reading from, "two mortar shells --"

18            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's all on page 2.

20            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  There's two times I see 82 millimetres, and since you

22    only mentioned 82 millimetres where I saw in the first part 120/82, I

23    thought you were -- no, it's even -- I thought you were referring to the

24     -- I see, as a matter of fact, that the whole structure of these lines in

25    translation -- let me just have a better look.

Page 1716

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic, because I hope

 3    you can --

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the interpreters ask for the second page

 5    to be put on the ELMO, please, as we don't have a copy.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please put the second page on the ELMO.

 7            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   The combatants of the second motorised company --

 9            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  [Previous translation continues] ... want to

10    have the original in Serbian.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think the original should be on the ELMO.

12    I'll just check.  Not the translation.  Could you please put page 2 of the

13    original on the ELMO.  Yes.  There we are.  I was a bit too quick in

14    saying that it was a problem as far as the translation is concerned.

15            Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.  I apologise for that.

16            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.  "The combatants of the 2nd motorised company were wounded, MB

18    120/82 millimetres, Jamakovic Rasid, and Jasar Jasminko.  Two mortar mines

19    of 82 millimetres which fell on the parking where football was being

20    played and where there were a large number of observers.  Six soldiers

21    were killed and 55 wounded.  In this incident, five civilians were killed

22    and 32 wounded.  These figures are unofficial and detailed data about the

23    events will be provided by the security organ."  Signed by the commander,

24    Ismet Hadzic.

25            Sir, you told us that Mr. Ismet Hadzic, after that event, would

Page 1717

 1    come to the hospital.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Would you allow for the possibility that the commander, Ismet

 4    Hadzic, was coming to visit the 55 wounded who were in your hospital?

 5       A.   He didn't come just after this event.  He would come whenever

 6    there was a shelling, a major shelling incident.  So I didn't take note of

 7    it, but he probably came, as he did regularly when there was a major

 8    shelling incident and a large number of wounded people.

 9            MR. BLAXILL:  Your Honours, may I object to one factor?  There's

10    been no evidence from the witness to the effect that the "55 wounded" were

11    in his hospital.  He stated he admitted some patients from that incident,

12    but no way was there a statement of 55 combatants being in his hospital on

13    that day.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  As far as I can see, the question was whether the

15    witness would allow for the possibility that he was coming to visit the 55

16    wounded, so I suggest that that is possibility as well which could be, as

17    a possibility, be concluded from the document shown to the witness, and

18    therefore, Mr. Blaxill, you would add something?

19            MR. BLAXILL:  I would like to add just one point, Your Honour, and

20    that is this:  Certainly the question of the possibility of visiting

21    wounded, but the statement contained in my learned friend's question was:

22     "Visit the 55 wounded."  And it's not been established in evidence how

23    many wounded soldiers were present in the hospital.  So the second element

24    to the question, if you like.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I do agree that it has not yet been established, but

Page 1718

 1    there is a possibility, if we look at the document, that there were 55.

 2    I'm not saying there were.  It has not been yet established.  So if Ms.

 3    Pilipovic could split up -- perhaps rephrase your question such that the

 4    objection of the Prosecution would have no ground any more.  I don't think

 5    it would be very difficult for you, Ms. Pilipovic.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Witness, could you tell us how many wounded persons were admitted

 8    to your institution after the incident of June at the football stadium?

 9       A.   A number of people, about 140, were injured, but the number could

10    be higher or lower.

11       Q.   Do you know how many patients of those 140 who were injured

12    remained in hospital for treatment?

13       A.   About 90.  Ninety something.  As I say, you must be flexible with

14    the numbers.  There were some 40 that we sent into town, and the rest were

15    treated in the hospital.

16       Q.   Do you allow for the fact that of those 90 patients that were

17    treated in your hospital included the 55 whom we enumerated which were

18    read out in your statement?

19       A.   That is possible.  I really can't say.  I just don't know.  I

20    never asked.  I never asked whether they were civilians or soldiers or

21    things of that kind.

22            MR. BLAXILL:  I have an objection --

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Blaxill.

24            MR. BLAXILL:  Your Honour, it's the Prosecution's view that really

25    this is not essentially probative, because the witness has given clear

Page 1719

 1    evidence on two factors.  One is a degree of uncertainty as to the numbers

 2    of people who were admitted.  Secondly, he has stated quite categorically

 3    that at no time did they ever delineate in the records that the patients

 4    were military or were not military.  So what my learned friend is

 5    attempting to pursue is to seek, as it were, some proof of a document

 6    which is otherwise at this stage totally unproven, and putting to the

 7    witness such things as assertions that there were so many patients picking

 8    up on 90 patients, and then stating:  "Do you allow for the fact that

 9    these included the 55 whom we enumerated, read out in your statement?"

10            JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is sustained, Mr. Blaxill.

11            MR. BLAXILL:  I'm obliged, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, you talk about 55 wounded enumerated

13    in your statement - it was not the statement of this witness - but it was

14    just the document read which talks about 55 wounded.  It does not say in

15    whatever way that these 55 were admitted into a hospital.  And finally, as

16    far as we're talking about facts, the last line of the statement says:

17    "All detailed information regarding this event will be submitted by the

18    security officer" after it has said that these data are unofficial.

19            So you cannot refer to 55 wounded people admitted to hospital as a

20    fact to be confirmed by the witness.

21            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we ask the

22    witness to -- can the witness confirm that 90 wounded persons remained, or

23    patients remained in his hospital?

24       A.   No.  90 didn't remain.

25       Q.   You said it was 90.

Page 1720

 1       A.   It means that, after treatment, people were hospitalised.  Yes,

 2    they stayed there to be treated, but some of them were treated and then

 3    sent home, whereas others stayed on in the hospital for treatment, were

 4    hospitalised.

 5            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has in

 6    its possession a document that it received from the Prosecution, which is

 7    a document entitled the Wartime Hospital of Dobrinja, and the document is

 8    a thousand pages long.  With your permission, the Defence is ready to

 9    photocopy all those pages.  It says "War Hospital of Dobrinja" and it says

10     "protocol."  The documents were taken from the archives and the witness

11    has said that the documents and protocol were stored in the archives of

12    the Sarajevo museum.  Because this is such a thick document, we have not

13    photocopied it, but from the hospital protocol kept in Dobrinja hospital,

14    it says, almost on every page, fighter, fighter, civilian, fighter, and so

15    on.  It is 1.000 pages in all.  But with your permission, I would like to

16    show the document to the witness and photocopy it as well.  It is a

17    Prosecution document, in fact.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, to show a thousand pages to the witness might

19    be a problem.

20            But Mr. Ierace, you --

21            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President, firstly, as you would have

22    noticed, Mr. Blaxill is having some trouble with his voice, so perhaps I

23    will take this objection.  I object to my friend giving evidence from the

24    bar table.  It's not acceptable.

25            Secondly, while I understand that it is not practical to photocopy

Page 1721

 1    multiple copies of a thousand-page document when she is aware that the

 2    Prosecution has a copy, it is still not unreasonable expect some notice

 3    from the Defence that they intend, during cross-examination of this

 4    witness, to refer to that document.

 5            Mr. President, at this stage, they are the points I wish to make.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ierace.  Of course, it might be a bit

 7    difficult for the Defence to indicate what documents they will use in

 8    cross-examination, since the examination-in-chief only started this

 9    morning.  So it's very difficult to give notice in advance, not even

10    knowing what the evidence will be in the testimony of the witness.  But

11    before we give any decision, Ms. Pilipovic, would you please tell us how

12    you'd like to use this document during this cross-examination and what is

13    the relevance of this document and whether you need all thousand pages or

14     -- so please inform this Chamber a bit more about what you intend to do

15    with this document.

16            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

17    like, after having cross-examined the witness on it, to tender it into

18    evidence, because the witness, asked by the Defence, said that in their

19    protocol which was kept in the hospital, it did not differentiate between

20    civilian and -- it did not say a civilian or fighter.  He said that the

21    protocol had been archived in the historical museum of the city of

22    Sarajevo.

23            The Defence has in its possession confirmation from the Sarajevo

24    archives - the signature is the head of the service, with the stamp of the

25    Historical Archives of Sarajevo, which states that the facts from the

Page 1722

 1    archival material have been sent to the archive of Sarajevo, and the

 2    protocol of Dobrinja hospital, in this report, which is a

 3    thousand-page report, it says, "War Hospital of Dobrinja, 1992 to 1994."

 4    With your permission, I could show the witness --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  If you would allow me to interfere at this moment.

 6    If it's your intention to show that in these records it is stated whether

 7    the patients were soldiers or military men or civilians, I don't think we

 8    need all thousand pages.  Could you then perhaps choose one or two of

 9    these pages which give perhaps also an average of the balance between

10    civilians and non-civilians?  Perhaps show them to the Prosecution, one or

11    two of these pages, and see whether these are more or less similar than

12    the other 998, and then introduce this evidence in this way.  Would that

13    be a procedure acceptable to the Prosecution?

14            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, then, on the basis of one or

16    two pages.  And since I expect that you will tender it into evidence, this

17    would be, I think, D26 and D27.  So if you would please first show them to

18    the Prosecution.

19            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  And I also take the opportunity to remind you that

21    you used already more time in cross-examination as the Prosecution did in

22    examination-in-chief.

23            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to

24    thank you and say that my learned colleague, after he began his

25    examination-in-chief, when asked by you, he said he would take two hours,

Page 1723

 1    so the Defence prepared for a two-hour cross-examination by that same

 2    token.  So I do apologise.  I thought the problem was solved.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  We'll discuss that later.  It's not the time

 4    indicated by the Prosecution --

 5            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  -- used by the Prosecution.

 7            Are these pages acceptable as just examples of what is in the

 8    archives?

 9            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, not having had notice, we can't say

10    from our own knowledge at this stage that they are pages from the book.

11    However, of course I accept what my friend says that they are, and they

12    are suitable as samples on that basis.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to be quite sure, the

15    documents were accepted by the Prosecution as being their own documents.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't think there's any problem.  The

17    Prosecution doesn't raise any problem at this very stage.  And of course,

18    if later on it would turn out that, nevertheless, these were not copies of

19    the documents presented by the Prosecution to the Defence, then of course

20    we're in a different situation.  So you may proceed on the basis of these

21    two pages, Ms. Pilipovic.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

23    I'm going to take a page from this document and show it to the witness.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The number is 02144146.

Page 1724

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  02 --

 2            MR. IERACE:  Well, Mr. President, I note that that number does not

 3    correspond with those on either of the two pages we've been handed.  We've

 4    been handed 143 and 144.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Would you please sort that out immediately

 6    now, whether these are the same documents or not.  Yes.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

 8    the documents that we're talking about are still in the possession of the

 9    Prosecution.  Is that correct?

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I just want to know whether the copies -- whether the

11    documents provided to the Prosecution are those that will be now shown to

12    the witness.  That's the only thing that interests me at this moment.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We only have one copy.  Does

14    the Prosecution still have the documents that we've just provided them

15    with?  We're talking about those two documents.  We don't know the numbers

16    because they were in the hands of the Prosecution a moment ago.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that's what created the confusion, that

18    Ms. Pilipovic was referring to a number.  Would you please put them on the

19    ELMO so that everyone can see the document.

20            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the witness

21    looks at the document, may I just show him, confirmation where it says,

22     "War Hospital Dobrinja" and the stamp of the archive museum, confirming

23    that the protocol number in the left-hand corner is linked to the Dobrinja

24    hospital.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Could it please --

Page 1725

 1       A.   I think it is.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... see a stamp.  I

 3    don't see any stamp at all at this moment.  So please, could the ELMO be

 4    adjusted.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that's another

 6    document.  The front page, the first page of the document, which we're

 7    going to show the witness right now.  He hasn't got it yet.  This is it.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  So I would remind you that it's better not to put any

 9    questions on a document which has not been yet shown to the witness.

10    Please proceed.  And could the document you are examining the witness on

11    be put on the ELMO at this moment.  So the last one given to the usher.

12    There we are.  I see a stamp.

13            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document we can

14    see on our screens on the ELMO is the first page, or rather, the second

15    page, and it says "War Hospital Dobrinja 1992 to 1994, data taken from the

16    archive documents stored in the historical archives of Sarajevo."

17       Q.   I should now like to ask the witness a few questions with respect

18    to this document on the ELMO, and the first question is as follows:  Is

19    the protocol -- was the protocol of your hospital stored in the historical

20    archive of Sarajevo, as you have said?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   May we now see the second page of the document placed on the ELMO,

23    please, the one that was on the screen a moment ago.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  In order to avoid any misunderstanding, at this

25    moment is on the ELMO -- could you please take it a bit down, because I

Page 1726

 1    want to indicate the number.  That's 02144143 in the right-hand upper

 2    corner.

 3            Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

 4            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Witness, in the upper left-hand corner, does it say the protocol

 6    number, surname, first name, and address?  Is that what it says?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Once again, on the left-hand side, if you look at 911, number 911,

 9    does it state the surname and -- name and surname and diagnosis?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And does number 913 say Skopak Nenad [as interpreted], combatant

12    or soldier.

13       A.   Senad, borac.

14       Q.   918.  Let's look at that number.  Does it say under that number

15    Sakalas Dzevad, combatant or soldier?

16       A.   It does.

17       Q.   Number 921, Tomic Mladen, does it say soldier?

18       A.   Yes, it does.

19       Q.   And number 922, does it say Lekic Izedin, soldier?

20       A.   Yes, it does.

21       Q.   Can you answer the following question:  In your hospital protocol

22    when patients were admitted, did you enter whether the person was a

23    civilian or a soldier?

24       A.   It was never my order as director that this distinction should be

25    made and entered.  I didn't pay attention to that.  I personally, as the

Page 1727

 1    founder and director of the hospital, never issued orders to that effect,

 2    that they should state civilian or soldier.  I don't know what that would

 3    mean for me if it said combatant or soldier.  I did what I could.  But I

 4    never paid attention to things of that kind.  Perhaps that was the case,

 5    but it was certainly not my order to have these distinctions entered into

 6    the protocol.

 7       Q.   Your hospital protocols, were the originals stored in the

 8    archives?

 9       A.   Absolutely so, yes.

10       Q.   Can you tell us how, in the document that you have before me, on

11    the basis of your hospital protocol, entries were made in the way they

12    were made for the patients that are listed here, that it says "borac" or

13    soldier, combatant, or that the other distinction was civilian?

14       A.   Well, it says so here.  That's what it says here.  It doesn't say

15    civilian.  But when it was the case of a soldier, it says "soldier."

16       Q.   Well, we have an example of that other instance where it says

17     "civilian" on another page, on another page of the document.  We can show

18    you that too.  So could you answer the question, please:  Who in your

19    hospital wrote the protocol and made the entries into the protocol?

20       A.   The typist sitting down at a table, and we would dictate to her,

21    when the patient came in.  We would dictate the name, surname, what was

22    done.  She was responsible for the entries in the protocol.

23       Q.   And who admitted the patients?

24       A.   Well, the typist did.  There was a porter at the entrance, and he

25    would receive the patients coming in.

Page 1728

 1       Q.   On the basis of what did he introduce these particulars, record

 2    these particulars?

 3       A.   I really don't know.  I don't know upon whose orders.  It

 4    certainly wasn't mine.

 5       Q.   When you admit a patient, do you take the anamnesis, the case

 6    history?

 7       A.   Yes, we do.

 8       Q.   What do you write in the anamnesis?

 9       A.   We state the way in which he was injured, the explosion of a shell

10    or some other explosion, things of that kind.

11       Q.   Do you say how the person was insured?

12       A.   Well, as the legal system wasn't functioning properly or the

13    insurance organs or anything of that kind, we really didn't pay much

14    attention to that.

15       Q.   How were you able to be reimbursed for your services, the services

16    rendered to patients?

17       A.   We weren't repaid.  We didn't have any salaries, we didn't set a

18    price on our service.  We didn't charge.

19       Q.   How can you explain that in these documents - and it is confirmed

20    that they come from your protocols - that entries were made as to civilian

21    or soldier?

22       A.   I don't know.  I have already said that I did not give an order to

23    that effect.  Now, who wrote that in and why, I really don't know.

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

25    more questions.

Page 1729

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.  So we then have to be very

 2    careful about the documents which then will be -- that are tendered into

 3    evidence.  Before giving the opportunity to the Prosecution, I'd just like

 4    to go through these documents to see whether we are complete.  We have D24

 5    has been -- the objection has been denied, for the reasons I have given in

 6    the beginning of this.  So we have, as far as Dr. Hajir is concerned, we

 7    have P11831, if I'm correct.  Any objections?  Not from the Defence.  So

 8    then we have P2506A.1, if I'm correct.

 9                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just informed that  ".1" means that it's

11    translation.  So I thought we had the -- we have the document in its

12    original language and also in translation.  I've got it, yes, but ...

13    Yes, I see that it was Exhibit P2506A and the translation P2506A.1.

14            Similarly, when I indicated P1183, attached to it is P1183.1.

15            We have one document presented by the Defence marked for

16    identification 11.  That's the document of which the witness could not

17    confirm that it was the type of document as suggested by the Defence.

18            And then we have D25.  That is the first page shown to the

19    witness.  And I would suggest that that's the front page, if I'm correct.

20    If not, please ...  No.  I'm mistaken, I'm afraid.  Yes, please.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you mean the page with the

22    stamp?

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that's not correct.  Let me just try to

24     -- I think D25 is the document -- yes, I've got it.  That's the document

25    which bears, on the original, the number 02056604.  That's in B/C/S.  And

Page 1730

 1    a translation is attached to it.  That would be D25 and D25.1, Madam

 2    Registrar, if I'm correct.

 3            Then we go to D26, and think that would be the document consisting

 4    of two pages, one front page with a stamp on it, and then a subsequent

 5    page.  The front page is bearing the number 02144141.  There's a stamp on

 6    it.  And the second page bears at the right top corner, 02144143, and

 7    these two pages together are then exhibit D26.

 8            Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that we had two pages

10    of text that were numbered a moment ago.  The documents --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  You have not used it during the examination.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's correct.  That's what I

13    wanted to say for the transcript, for purposes of the transcript.  That's

14    precisely what I wanted to state.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Only the front page and the page of which I just gave

16    the number are the two pages which are Exhibit D26.  And since the

17    procedure was accepted by the Prosecution, I don't think that there's any

18    problem in admitting them into evidence.  Okay.  I see that the

19    Prosecution is nodding no, so please, Mr. Usher, would you return the

20    documents, apart from -- yes.  So they've now been given to the registry.

21            So I think we've sorted out that now, but it's still up to the

22    Prosecution at this moment to re-examine the witness, if there's any need

23    for that.

24            MR. BLAXILL:  No, Your Honour, we do not propose any

25    re-examination.  I would simply make the formal application to tender into

Page 1731

 1    evidence the two Prosecution exhibits with their respective translations,

 2    the numbers of which you have just announced.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I just expected -- perhaps I was a bit too

 4    quick in dealing with them, but it was intended by the Prosecution to

 5    tender them into evidence.

 6            MR. BLAXILL:  Indeed, sir.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  That means that we've still --

 8    any questions by my colleagues?  Any questions?

 9                          Questioned by the Court

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I would just like to verify one issue first, and that

11    is:  Dr. Hajir, on our transcript - and as far as I remember, in our

12    translation - we did not hear your exact answer to the question of how

13    many people were killed in the, I would say, football match incident.

14    From the questioning during cross-examination, I did understand that the

15    answer, which does not appear in our transcript, would be 13 or 14 persons

16    killed.  Is my understanding correct?

17       A.   That is more or less correct, but that number -- or these numbers,

18    there's always a certain percentage which is not quite certain.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You indicated before that you're not very sure

20    about the exact number.  That's what I understand.  But 13 to 14,

21    approximately, had been your answer?

22       A.   That's right.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I've got one more questions in relation

24    to the -- one of the documents shown to you, and that is the document

25    where it was indicated --

Page 1732

 1            Perhaps you, please, could give the -- I think it's D26, once

 2    again to the witness, and if you would please show to him the second page

 3    of this document.  Please put it on the ELMO.  Could you place it -- yes.

 4    Thank you.

 5            I noticed, Dr. Hajir, that every entry starts with a number.  The

 6    first entry starts with 911, the second with 913, the third with 915, the

 7    fourth with 917, and then it continues 918, 919.  Is there any explanation

 8    why especially these first four figures are not in a subsequent order?

 9       A.   I really don't know.  I have no idea.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Dr. Hajir.

11            Mr. Usher, you can bring Exhibit D26 back it the registry.

12            Dr. Hajir, this ends of examination by the parties and by this

13    Chamber.  I would like to thank you very much for having come a long

14    journey to The Hague and having informed this Court about what you know

15    and what you experienced, and I would like to wish you a good journey

16    home.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation Thank you very much.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, please take the witness out of the

19    courtroom.

20                          [The witness withdrew]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness to be called by the Prosecution

22    would be --

23            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, the next witness is Fuad

24    Sehbajraktarevic, and that witness will be taken by Chester Stamp.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

Page 1733

 1            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you wanted to --

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before we adjourn, referring

 3    to the previous case, the Defence should make -- would you like the

 4    Defence to make copies of the documents we have submitted or shall the

 5    registry take care of it?

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course we would prefer that the Defence

 7    would have made copies in advance, but I think since they've now been

 8    admitted into evidence as exhibits, I would rather keep the chain of

 9    custody closed.  And we only need two copies, I think.  I think this could

10    be done by the registry, or am I not correct, Madam Registrar?  Although,

11    preferably, it should not be done by the registry.  Yes, please.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  If Your Honour says so, then we're going to make

13    the copy, but next time we would really appreciate the Defence counsel

14    make their own copies.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  I think that's quite clear to them now, but I would

16    be careful as far as the chain of custody is concerned.  Then you may

17    bring in, Mr. Usher, the next witness.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, it's going to be open session, but

19    while we're bringing in the witness we're going to bring the blinds down

20    so the public couldn't see ...

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just look.

22                          [Trial Chamber confers]

23            JUDGE ORIE:  I do apologise for not having properly noticed any

24    protective measures.  That's certainly a mistake and our side.  But could

25    it please be indicated on the list provided by the parties to the Chamber

Page 1734

 1    whether any protective measures are sought and whether they have been

 2    ordered.  It certainly is our mistake, but if you could assist us.

 3    Please, Mr. Stamp.

 4            MR. STAMP:  May it please Your Honours --

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much.  I suspect that the protective

 7    measures would apply to the next succeeding witness.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            MR. STAMP:  Or the witness which succeeds the next one.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course.  That's what I had -- then we're

11    talking about Witness B, of course there are protective measures, which is

12    clear.  But if there are no protective measures for -- Mr.

13    Sehbajraktarevic, then --

14            MR. STAMP:  Indeed.  I think to keep the proceedings regular,

15    there should be no protective measures in respect to the next witness, Mr.

16    Sehbajraktarevic, and it should be in open court.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So therefore I would ask the usher to open the

18    blinds again.

19            MR. STAMP:  I do apologise.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, I really would have -- I was a bit

21    surprised, and I apologise for not knowing.  Well, finally it turns out

22    that our understanding was correct.  Could you please interfere at an

23    earlier moment when not all the blinds are down.

24            Mr. Usher, would you please prepare the Court for open session

25    again.

Page 1735

 1            MR. STAMP:  It really indicates how efficient the usher was,

 2    because as I turned to inquire what is happening, the courtroom was so

 3    quickly sealed off.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do agree with you that the usher does a

 5    splendid job.

 6            MR. STAMP:  Indeed.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  I think we all apologise together for forcing him to

 8    do any unnecessary activity.

 9            Mr. Usher, could I then ask you to bring in the witness.

10            I do understand correctly that the time estimate is one hour and a

11    half for this witness?

12            MR. STAMP:  I believe you're correct, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, I do not expect to be so long.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

16                          [The witness entered court]

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sehbajraktarevic, welcome into this courtroom.

18    Do you understand me, can you hear me, and do you understand me in a

19    language --

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- no.  I first would invite you to make the

22    solemn declaration which you're required to make by the Rules of Procedure

23    and Evidence.  The text will be handed out to you -- is already handed out

24    to you by the usher.  Would you please make the declaration.

25                          WITNESS:  Fuad Sehbajraktarevic

Page 1736












12  Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13  and English transcripts. Pages 1736 to 1741.













Page 1742

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 3    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.  You will be examined by Mr. Stamp,

 5    a member of the Prosecution team who called you as a witness in this

 6    case.

 7            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Mr. President

 9                          Examined by Mr. Stamp:

10       Q.   Could you please state your name.

11       A.   Fuad Sehbajraktarevic.

12       Q.   And what is your present job?

13       A.   Director of a company in Sarajevo, of a funeral parlour.

14       Q.   That is the Bakije Funeral Home in Sarajevo?

15       A.   A company in Sarajevo, yes.

16       Q.   What's the name of the company?

17       A.   As I said, the funeral -- the Bakije Funeral Parlour.  It's 70 --

18    80 years old.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to facilitate the

21    proceedings, I've heard several times that the witness has been asked to

22    approach so that we can hear him.  That's all.  To approach the

23    microphone.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  To approach the microphone.

25            Mr. Sehbajraktarevic, would you please talk properly into the

Page 1743

 1    microphone so that everyone can understand you.  Thank you.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Yes.

 3            MR. STAMP:

 4       Q.   You live in Sarajevo?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Now, how long have you been the director of that funeral home?

 7       A.   Since December 1992.

 8       Q.   And were you the director of a funeral home during the war in the

 9    early 1990s, in particular between September 1992 to August 1994?

10       A.   That's right.

11       Q.   And did you work at that funeral parlour before you became

12    director?

13       A.   I did, from 1974.

14       Q.   Now, could you tell us briefly, in a sentence or two, what were

15    your responsibilities as director of a funeral parlour?

16       A.   During the war -- do you mean during the war?

17       Q.   Yes.

18       A.   To provide the conditions to bury people in a normal way.

19       Q.   And as director, you were responsible for organising the work of

20    the funeral parlour?

21       A.   That's right.

22       Q.   Now, during the war, particularly between September 1992 to August

23    1994, about how many employees did you have at the funeral parlour?

24       A.   Eleven, sometimes twelve.

25       Q.   And did you operate vehicles?

Page 1744

 1       A.   Yes.  I had four vehicles, four vans.

 2       Q.   And you used the vehicles to transport the bodies from one place

 3    to another?

 4       A.   Yes, to transport the bodies.  That's right.

 5       Q.   Where in Sarajevo was the funeral parlour situated at?

 6       A.   It was in Bascarsija.  It's the centre of old Sarajevo.  Sarajevo

 7    is well known for its Bascarsija.  We've been there since 1946.

 8       Q.   Now, in the course of the war, particularly the period I

 9    mentioned, September 1992 to August 1994, were any of your vehicles ever

10    fired upon?

11       A.   Yes.  During the entire war, our vehicles came under fire.  Not

12    always, not always, but ...

13       Q.   Were any ever hit by fire?

14       A.   They were all hit, all of the vehicles.  We didn't have any

15    windshields on the vehicles.  They had pot holes from the shells, from

16    bullets.  None of the vehicles came through undamaged.

17       Q.   Now, were your vehicles marked in any particular way which may

18    identify them --

19       A.   We had -- there were notices on each door, as there are now.  It

20    stated that it was a funeral parlour, the Bakije Funeral Parlour.  At the

21    beginning, we got the flag of the Red Cross, but it was not of much use so

22    we took it off.  The sign wasn't visible from the hill.

23       Q.   You said the sign wasn't visible from where?

24       A.   I would say about a hundred metres, 200 metres.

25       Q.   Now, you said at one time you had a Red Cross flag but it wasn't

Page 1745

 1    much use.  Why did you take it off?

 2       A.   No, not at all.  We received this in Nedzarici, in the home for

 3    old people.  We received this flag there, a reserve one.  We had no need

 4    for the other one.

 5       Q.   Yes.  And you told me earlier that it was not of much use and that

 6    you took it off.  Could you say why you took it off?

 7       A.   No.  No.  It wasn't necessary.  It quite simply was not necessary.

 8    It was a better target, to be quite frank, as far as I know.  It was more

 9    visible.  There were very few vehicles in Sarajevo at that time.

10       Q.   Was the Red Cross flag ever shot at?

11       A.   Yes.  Not at the flag.  They shot at the vehicle.

12       Q.   Now, did your funeral home at -- and I'm going to try to pronounce

13    it - at Bascarsija -- one moment please.

14       A.   Yes, we can --

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry.  I

16    would like to object to the preceding question.  According to what we read

17    out, we could think that what was in question was the sign of the Red

18    Cross in general.  I think it would be important to state very clearly

19    what my colleague said.  I mention the question asked a few moments ago at

20    12:24:17.  Thank you.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  What is exactly your objection at this moment?

22    Because I read in the transcript that the question was:  "Was the Red

23    Cross flag ever --"

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like us to state

25    whether the question referred to the flag that was on the vehicle in

Page 1746

 1    question or whether it referred to things in general.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, I do not know how it has been translated

 3    to the witness, but the question as I can read it in English is: "Was the

 4    Red Cross flag ever shot at?"  And although I would not suspect that it

 5    would not be properly translated, could the question be repeated, and may

 6    I ask the translators especially to pay attention to whether they

 7    interpreted "flag" and not "sign."

 8            MR. STAMP:  May I have one moment?

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

10                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

11            MR. STAMP:

12       Q.   Was the Red Cross flag which you carried on your vehicles ever

13    shot at?

14       A.   The flag was triangular.  It had this kind of a shape.  We

15    received it.  About half a metre, and it was of this shape.  We put it on

16    the aerial of the car and it lasted for as long as it lasted.  And whether

17    they fired at the flag, the person who fired knows that.  The flag is not

18    responsible for anything.

19       Q.   Your funeral home, you said, was in Bascarsija?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Was that funeral home ever hit by shells during the war?

22       A.   Six or seven direct hits to the home.  The roof was hit, the

23    garage, the yard.  This took place at night too, when there was no -- when

24    no one was around.

25       Q.   How about the area immediately surrounding the funeral home?  Was

Page 1747

 1    that ever hit by shelling?

 2       A.   The post office was right next to us, about 30 metres from Bakije,

 3    and when it was hit, I think that was in August 1992, the shells stopped

 4    raining down on Bakije.  As soon as it was hit, it stopped, the shelling

 5    stopped, as far as the shells are concerned.

 6       Q.   Now, were there any military installations or facilities at your

 7    funeral home?

 8       A.   No.  No.

 9       Q.   Were there any military --

10       A.   There's a bakery.  None at all.

11       Q.   Were there any military installations or facilities in the

12    immediate vicinity of your funeral home?

13       A.   No.  No.  It's a civilian part of town.

14       Q.   Thank you.

15       A.   The army was further away.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, I saw that you just conferred with your

17    colleague.  Could you please find a suitable moment rather soon where you

18    could interrupt the examination-in-chief, please.

19            MR. STAMP:  If it pleases Mr. President --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  If this is a suitable moment, that's -- yes.

21            Mr. Sehbajraktarevic, it has only been for a quarter of an hour

22    now that you have been examined.  The Court has to deal with a few other

23    issues, and therefore we'll have a break now and we'll not resume, as far

24    as your examination is concerned, until tomorrow.  I apologise.  Usually

25    we would go on for some more time, but we just didn't want to lose any

Page 1748

 1    time and start already with your examination.  But tomorrow we'll continue

 2    as far as you're concerned.

 3            Then before adjourning for the break, I would just like to ask the

 4    usher to distribute a -- it's a document.  I did put on it what's - for

 5    the translation - what's for the Defence and what's for the Prosecution.

 6    Would you please read it over the break, because it is for the preparation

 7    of the Status Conference we'll have in half an hour.  So we'll, after the

 8    distribution of the documents -- I indicated what was for the translation,

 9    Prosecution; four Prosecution copies, two Defence copies, six translation

10    copies.  That's the way it should be done.  And we'll have -- we'll

11    adjourn until 1.00.

12                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.33 p.m.

13                          to be followed by a Status Conference