Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1874

1 Monday, 21 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we continue the examination of witnesses, I had a look at

10 the schedule that had been given to the Defence, what witnesses would be

11 called, and finally, this Chamber also got a copy of this letter. And it

12 turned out that on this letter, now the time, the estimated time for the

13 witnesses, is not indicated, so we have to find that somewhere in our

14 files. So I think it would be better to have that as well.

15 For that reason, and also in order to avoid whatever

16 misunderstanding about what protective measures there are, what the time

17 estimate is, whether everyone has got the copies disclosed to him, I tried

18 to assist the parties, and I did it just for once. If Mr. Usher could

19 please come and distribute this. I have enough copies, a couple of copies

20 to the Prosecution and to the Defence.

21 This is the information this Chamber would like to have at the

22 beginning of each week. That means the names of the witnesses, exhibit

23 numbers, of course to be described more in detail on a separate list, time

24 estimates, protective measures granted. That's the Prosecution part. We

25 want this list filled in, given by the Prosecution to the Defence so that

Page 1875

1 the Defence checks whether there are any exhibits not yet disclosed or

2 whether there's any problem as far as the language is concerned, and

3 similarly, whether there are any previous statements of the witness not

4 yet disclosed. Please put your name on it, please put a date on it, and

5 inform the Chamber so that we have got really everything we need to know.

6 Of course, I would have expected this in one way or another to be

7 organised by the parties themselves. The format of this can be provided

8 by the Chamber, because it has been drafted by the Chamber, so you

9 can -- it's really to assist you. And whenever there's any change in the

10 order, exhibits or whatsoever, please make a new list, put a new date on

11 it, give it to the Defence again, the Defence checks whether they have got

12 everything they need, and then a copy to be given to the Chamber. This is

13 actually the way it should have been organised, and I am assisting you now

14 to organise this way.

15 So this is just an example. I'll try to figure out the time

16 estimates from the lists available to us. If it's not correct, please let

17 me know, but this is what we could figure out as what we could expect over

18 the next few days. If there's any problem already as far as this list is

19 concerned, if it's not about Witness D, then the Defence may inform the

20 Chamber during the day.

21 Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as Witness D

23 is concerned, the Defence has received -- or rather, I handed over my

24 learned friend from the Prosecution information that I have received, the

25 map, so we do have that. I should like to inform the Trial Chamber that

Page 1876

1 the Defence has a list of witnesses, enjoying a pseudonym as a protective

2 measure, and Witness K, on my list, is the second witness. I should like

3 to ask my learned colleagues if there has been a change in the order for

4 witnesses with pseudonyms on that list, to inform the Defence on time so

5 that we avoid misunderstanding. Because Witness K on my list of protected

6 witnesses is witness 2. My colleagues informed me yesterday, or rather,

7 on Saturday, that this particular witness, Witness K, is not the one that

8 I thought he was, the name that we have, but that he is, in fact, a

9 different person. I don't know if the Trial Chamber has been informed of

10 this, and whether they have the pseudonyms with the corresponding names

11 correctly listed.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I hope so. We'll see. Of course, it's -- as far as

13 I remember, the list of pseudonyms was attached, I think, to the motion

14 which the protective measures was sought. So that's what guides us at

15 this moment. If this is not correct any more, then ...

16 Mr. Ierace, has any --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

18 may I just add one more point: It was the list dated the 13th of

19 December, 2001, which my colleagues faxed to me, the 13th of December. It

20 is a list of witnesses enjoying protective measures.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could, please, both the Defence and the Prosecution

22 approach the Bench with their list of names and pseudonyms of witnesses so

23 we can check whether we all have the same. Compare it with my list. The

24 thick one, is that from the Prosecution? And one sheet is from the

25 Defence. Okay, let me just ...

Page 1877

1 Yes, these lists are not the same, so we have to compare them in

2 detail. Would you please do this during the next break, because you have

3 different lists now. I see this one is faxed on the 13th of December, and

4 this is one -- an annex to a motion filed on the 30th of October. So

5 there is a French list, which is different and from a later date. And

6 since I was also informed according to the list the Prosecution just

7 provided, would you please sort it out and inform the Chamber which is the

8 correct list. As far as I can see, Witness D, there's no problem, so we

9 can start with Witness D. And then have to verify which is the true

10 list.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Could I just make the comment that the list I have

14 handed up is an annex to the motion that is the 30th of October last year.

15 Initially, that was a confidential and ex parte motion. The ex parte

16 status was lifted. So I don't understand why the Defence is confused as

17 to the details of Witness K. But we will speak to them again --

18 JUDGE ORIE: What I see is that there are different names

19 connected to Witness K.

20 MR. IERACE: I don't know that both lists came from the

21 Prosecution, the one that the Defence has handed up.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would you please compare these lists during

23 the first break and see what the problem exactly is. And if there's no

24 problem, I will be glad to hear so.

25 Since there's no problem as far as Witness D is concerned, I

Page 1878

1 suggest that Witness D is brought into the courtroom.

2 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

4 will be able to extricate ourselves from the situation. As far as

5 [redacted] the Prosecution has provided two translations and

6 not one, but they are not identical.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did I hear you mention a name?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please, be very careful.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very sorry. I misspoke.

11 It is a mistake on my part. I was speaking of Witness D. I do

12 apologise.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, will you prepare what has to be

14 done.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have two translations, but

17 we will make do with one of them, although they are not exactly the same.

18 So one translation would be sufficient. I should like to thank the

19 Prosecution.

20 JUDGE ORIE: One translation of what, exactly?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the statement.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's clear to me. So we now can proceed.

23 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.

24 May I remind the parties, to start with, the Prosecution, to put

25 off their microphones immediately when the witness starts answering the

Page 1879

1 question since voice distortion is linked to the microphone of the witness

2 but, of course, the distance is rather short. And therefore, it might be

3 possible that part of what he says can be heard by your microphones.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

6 understand?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome to this courtroom. Since a pseudonym has

9 been granted to you, we will call you "Witness D." So that is you on from

10 this moment. Now, Witness D, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require

11 you to make a solemn declaration of which the text will be handed out to

12 you by the usher. Would you please make that declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll first be examined by the Prosecution.

16 Please be seated.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And just in order to avoid any mistakes, in the

19 earliest stage of your examination, a sheet will be given to you with your

20 name on it, just answer the question put by the Prosecution to you, but do

21 not read your name aloud. Just say, according to what is asked to you,

22 yes or no. Because if you would read your own name, then the whole

23 protective measures would not be effective any more.

24 Mr. Ierace, you're going to examine the witness? Yes, please

25 proceed.

Page 1880


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the sheet be given to the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

6 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

7 Q. Sir, would you please look at the details on the sheet of paper in

8 front of you. And please do not read them out, but can you confirm that

9 the details are correct?

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE ORIE: I did not --

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. They cannot hear

13 the witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: There's something wrong with the microphone, I

15 think. Mr. Usher, could you please check whether the microphone is close

16 enough to the witness and that it's -- or is it a matter of the voice

17 distortion which causes the problem?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's working now.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the answer just given on the

20 question by the Prosecution so that the interpreters can hear you and can

21 translate.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, what it says on the piece of

23 paper is correct.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think for technical reasons we just -- the name

25 sheet has been tendered into evidence, sealed, and is admitted into

Page 1881

1 evidence.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3646, under seal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 Q. Sir, whereabouts were you born?

5 A. I was born in Sarajevo.

6 Q. Up until 1992, had you lived anywhere else apart from Sarajevo?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I take it, therefore, you went to school in Sarajevo.

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Did you undertake any university studies in Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you obtain a degree as a result of those studies?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. What type of degree was it?

15 A. It was a law degree.

16 Q. At some stage did you do military service?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. I take it that was in the JNA?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Would you tell us what year or years you did that service?

21 A. From October 1982 to September 1983.

22 Q. At a later stage were you called up by some form of reserve

23 forces?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. What were those forces?

Page 1882

1 A. The reserve police force.

2 Q. For what period of time did you stay in the reserve police force?

3 A. Several weeks.

4 Q. I will now ask you some questions about the outbreak of

5 hostilities in Sarajevo. When did that armed conflict commence?

6 A. On the 6th of April, 1992.

7 Q. Where were you living at that stage?

8 A. In Sarajevo.

9 Q. In what district or municipality?

10 A. The municipality of Novo Sarajevo, and the district was called

11 Grbavica.

12 Q. When, according to your observations, did military forces move

13 into Grbavica?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. My

15 learned colleague -- I should like to ask my learned colleague to rephrase

16 the question, because the witness mentioned no military forces, which was

17 the term used in the question asked him.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's not only that no military forces were

19 yet mentioned, but no going into Grbavica as well. So would you please

20 rephrase that question, since this might not -- an issue which is not

21 uncontested.

22 MR. IERACE: I will, Your Honour. I had assumed that by now that

23 was not a contested issue.

24 Q. From your observations, given that you were living in Grbavica on

25 the 6th of April, 1992, are you able to tell us whether there were persons

Page 1883












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1884

1 bearing arms in Grbavica at about that time?

2 A. In that part of Grbavica where I was, there weren't, not yet, not

3 on the 6th of April, in the part where I lived.

4 Q. Did you make any relevant observations in parts of Grbavica at

5 around that time, other than where you lived?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. What were they?

8 A. Above Grbavica, armed people were stationed.

9 Q. Were you able to determine what group, if any, they were

10 affiliated with?

11 A. They were people who mostly lived there and who were given arms.

12 Trenches had been dug there, and they were there with their weapons.

13 Q. Did you notice any activity at around that time -- I withdraw

14 that. Did you notice whether there was any activity around that time, in

15 that area, by the forces of the JNA?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please tell us what you saw.

18 A. Before Grbavica was taken over, the JNA units, on several

19 occasions, together with people from the SDS who had arms as well, went to

20 Grbavica in the course of the night and would return before dawn to their

21 original positions.

22 Q. Did that pattern of behaviour continue beyond around the 6th of

23 April?

24 A. Yes. Yes. What I said took place after the 6th of April. That's

25 when it happened.

Page 1885

1 Q. Approximately when was that?

2 A. It happened from the 6th of April to mid-May, when Grbavica had

3 been taken control of.

4 Q. When you say that Grbavica had been taken control of in mid-May,

5 what exactly happened at that point in time?

6 A. The army, the JNA, and the people from the SDS who were armed took

7 control of Grbavica, militarily speaking, and they set up the front line

8 along the Miljacka River, roughly.

9 Q. Are you aware as to whether there was a headquarters at that

10 stage, that is, after Grbavica had been taken control?

11 A. Yes. Immediately after Grbavica had been taken, the headquarters

12 of those units present there had been set up.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown a

14 map. A copy has been provided to the Defence. It is marked P3637. That

15 exhibit number comprises five maps. This particular one has written at

16 the top of it "Map 1."

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

18 before the witness is shown this document, the Defence would like to point

19 out that we are not talking about a map of the town here, but only a

20 portion of a map. As I said, this is just a portion of a map, not a map

21 in its entirety, just a copy thereof.


23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So we cannot refer to it as a map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is a map, but a map of a part of the city,

25 as far as I understand. Could it really create any confusion, especially

Page 1886

1 if we put it on the ELMO? I don't think so. But you're quite right, it's

2 a part of the city only, but it still is a map. Could it be put on the

3 ELMO for further questioning.


5 Q. Sir, did you make a statement to an investigator from the Office

6 of the Prosecution of this Tribunal in February of 1997?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. During the course of making that statement, were you shown the map

9 which is now before you?

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you something, Mr. Ierace. Do you

11 intend to have this map also put on the ELMO? As I just asked, I didn't

12 hear you oppose. Are you going to use it on the ELMO?

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please ask one of your team to stand next

15 to the usher and take care that the name of the witness which appears on

16 the map is not shown on the ELMO.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Ms. Harris will place a sticker over

18 that part of the map.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. Please proceed.


21 Q. Sir, I will re-ask that question. When you made that statement,

22 were you shown the original of the map which is before you now?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you make some markings on that map?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1887

1 Q. And do those appear before you now?

2 A. Yes, they do.

3 Q. Did you indicate on that map approximately where you were living

4 in April of 1992?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. What is that marking which appears on the map?

7 A. The location was marked by me with an X.

8 Q. Could you please point to that X on the map with your finger or

9 with the pointer.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. All right. You said in evidence earlier this morning that before

12 Grbavica was occupied, there were some forces that moved in above

13 Grbavica. Did you indicate that position on the map in 1997?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. How did you make that indication?

16 A. I indicated that position with a black line.

17 Q. Would you please point to the black line.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. That line appears to run on the southern side of a road. How is

20 that road known? How was it known then?

21 A. The road is commonly referred to as Transit, or a bypass

22 actually. It runs on the southern side of this area.

23 Q. You also said this morning that that line was above Grbavica.

24 Having regard to that evidence, did the Transit Road cut across the slope

25 of a hill?

Page 1888

1 A. Yes. It cuts across the slope above Grbavica.

2 Q. Does that slope extend upwards as one moves approximately south?

3 A. Yes. If one moves south, then it climbs up, up the hill.

4 Q. You also gave evidence this morning that in mid-May, Grbavica was

5 occupied, I think you said to the river. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Did you indicate that on the map in 1997?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. What colour pen did you use to do that?

10 A. I used a dark blue pen, marked it with a line which ends up in an

11 arrow.

12 Q. Would you please point out that line.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Thank you. You've also given evidence that following the

15 occupation, a headquarters was set up. Were you asked to mark the

16 location of the headquarters on the map in 1997?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Did you do that?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. How did you do that?

21 A. I think I marked it with an X, with a cross -- actually, this

22 little square that looks more like a plus, sign for plus, which you can

23 see on the map.

24 Q. Can you please point to that.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 1889

1 Q. Do you see beneath the square with what appears to be a plus in

2 it, there appears to be a dot or a circle in blue ink?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Did you place that there?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to object at

8 this point because my learned colleague wanted the witness to show a cross

9 below Grbavica, but I must say that this was not handwritten by the

10 witness. It is a part of a map, and I think that it stands for an

11 emergency unit of some sort. I wish to avoid any misunderstanding. I

12 will cross-examine the witness on this issue; however, I must point to the

13 Court at this time that this is a Red Cross sign. It is not a sign that

14 was put in by the witness. Because we also have an original, one could

15 plainly see what is part of the map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think the witness was asked to

17 indicate a certain place, and whether it was written by himself on the map

18 or whether it was red or green or blue. I don't think that this has to do

19 anything with admissibility. And of course, you can cross-examine the

20 witness on colours or meanings. But I think it's not appropriate that you

21 give additional information to what has not been the testimony of the

22 witness at this moment. So you can do that during cross-examination.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


25 Q. Did the blue dot or circle indicate anything in particular?

Page 1890

1 A. It seems to me that I made a mistake. I confused the two signs.

2 It is the blue circle or a dot that indicated the headquarters that was

3 established.

4 Q. All right. Now, at about that time, that is, around May of 1992,

5 was anything happening in terms of the local residents of Grbavica in the

6 conflict?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In particular, can you tell us whether there was any recruiting in

9 that area?

10 A. Yes, a mobilisation of all males from 18 up to 60 years of age was

11 immediately carried out. And call-up papers were put up on visible places

12 all around Grbavica.

13 Q. Before the conflict began, from your observation, what was the

14 ethnic composition of Grbavica?

15 A. The ethnic composition was mixed.

16 Q. Which groups lived there?

17 A. Muslims, Serbs, and Croats. And other minorities to a lesser

18 extent.

19 Q. Did the mobilisation apply to all or some of the ethnic groups who

20 lived in Grbavica?

21 A. The mobilisation applied only to males of Serb ethnic origin.

22 Q. Did anything happen to the other ethnic groups who lived there?

23 A. If you're referring to the mobilisation, no. People from other

24 ethnic groups were not mobilised.

25 Q. From your observation, did the conflict at about that time, that

Page 1891

1 is April, May of 1992, appear to impact in any way, either adversely or

2 favourably upon the other ethnic groups, that is the non-Serb ethnic

3 groups?

4 A. Of course it had major negative impact on other ethnic groups,

5 non-Serb ethnic groups.

6 Q. What is your ethnic background?

7 A. I'm a Croat.

8 Q. What impact, if any, did it have upon you and your family?

9 A. We lived in fear, and we had good reasons for that.

10 Q. What were those reasons?

11 A. We were exposed to the danger of being evicted or killed or

12 mistreated either physically or psychologically at all times.

13 Q. Did anything happen to members of the Croatian community who you

14 knew in that regard?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened?

17 A. They were expelled, forced to perform forced labour. Women were

18 sometimes raped. Those who were taken away never returned.

19 Q. Did any members of your immediate family live in Grbavica at that

20 time?

21 A. Yes, my parents lived there.

22 Q. At that time, did you consider your plight in relation to the

23 danger of living in Grbavica?

24 A. Yes, I did, and I was aware of the danger that I was exposed to.

25 Q. Did you make a decision on a course of action so as to minimise

Page 1892

1 that danger?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. What was that decision?

4 A. At one point I decided to report to the units of the Serb army,

5 that is, to volunteer to join that army. I did this together with a

6 neighbour of mine.

7 Q. Did you discuss that decision with your parents?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. In what way did you think that enlisting would reduce the danger?

10 A. Well, I thought that the mere membership in that army would

11 protect me from the assaults that I had -- that I previously mentioned,

12 and that I would also be in a position not only to protect myself but also

13 my parents. I apologise. I have to mention that I did want to leave

14 Grbavica, to flee; however, my father flatly refused any such suggestion.

15 And his idea was that I should leave if I wanted but that they would stay

16 behind, which is something that I couldn't accept. I didn't want to leave

17 them behind alone, because I was afraid what might happen to them.

18 Q. When you say that your father flatly refused any such suggestion,

19 what was the suggestion that your father refused?

20 A. Well, the suggestion that all three of us should, as soon as

21 possible, leave Grbavica.

22 Q. Having decided to enlist, how did you make contact with the

23 military forces?

24 A. Me and my neighbour were taken to the headquarters by an

25 individual. We had told him what we wanted to do, and he said that there

Page 1893












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1894

1 would be no problems, that he would take us there to report and that he

2 would arrange for everything.

3 Q. By "headquarters," do you mean those at the position marked by the

4 blue circle, or other headquarters?

5 A. Yes. I refer to the position that I previously indicated. I made

6 a mistake. Before I said that the location in question was marked with a

7 square with a plus in it, but on the other hand, it is actually the blue

8 dot that indicates the headquarters.

9 Q. When you attended the headquarters, who did you speak to?

10 A. Once we got there, this young man who took us there spoke to some

11 people. Nobody asked us anything: who we were, what we wanted to do

12 there. They were just happy that more people were joining them.

13 Q. Can you tell us briefly what happened at the headquarters in

14 relation to you on that occasion?

15 A. When the three of us arrived there, this young man explained to

16 them that he had two volunteers who wanted to join the army. They checked

17 some papers, some records, to see what platoon had the least number of

18 people, so that we would be assigned there. Then they set about looking

19 for a platoon commander who would later become my commander, [redacted]

20 [redacted]. They managed to find him, and it was him to took us to an

21 adjacent building across the street, which actually constituted business

22 premises for the Digitron Buje company before the war, and that is where

23 we were given weapons. After that we were informed that we should report

24 to a review in the evening hours and that after that review we would be

25 sent to positions.

Page 1895

1 Q. Did you report --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


4 Q. Did you report for the review in the evening hours, as requested?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. What happened after that?

7 A. After the review I was sent to the position in the vicinity of the

8 Miljacka River.

9 Q. Is that position near any street?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. What was the name of that street?

12 A. The name of the street was Lenjinova Street.

13 Q. What happened after you arrived at that position?

14 A. After we arrived at that position, we realised that it was a

15 high-rise building consisting of 14 or 15 floors. There were actually

16 four skyscrapers in that area, and me and my colleague were assigned to

17 the third skyscraper, looking from the cultural hall, that is, from left

18 to right. It was still daylight when we got there, and we stayed there

19 throughout the night until the morning hours.

20 Q. Where exactly in relation to the third skyscraper were you

21 stationed?

22 A. We were stationed in front of the skyscraper, at the entrance to

23 the skyscraper, on that side, that is, on the side where the entrance to

24 the skyscraper is.

25 Q. Approximately how many floors did the skyscraper have?

Page 1896

1 A. I think it had 14 floors.

2 Q. Did that apply to each of the four skyscrapers in that area, that

3 is, around 14 floors?

4 A. Yes. Yes. All of them were the same.

5 Q. For what period of time was that your area of service, that is, in

6 the vicinity of the four skyscrapers?

7 A. I was there from the 22nd of June until the beginning of May, when

8 I left Grbavica, but on six or seven occasions I spent five or six days at

9 a different location. I was in position there.

10 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence, I take it that the 22nd of

11 June, 1992, was the day that you enlisted. Is that correct?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Yes, please.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it would --

14 the answer would be more precise, the 22nd of June, and May. We don't

15 know which year is in question.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


18 Q. Is that the date that you enlisted, having regard to your earlier

19 evidence?

20 A. I'll try to be more precise. The dates in question were the 22nd

21 of June, 1992, until the beginning of May, 1993.

22 Q. Thank you for that. You've told us that you were assigned to a

23 platoon, and that you reported on the evening of the date that you

24 enlisted to the area of the third skyscraper. What area did that platoon

25 operate in?

Page 1897

1 A. I'm sorry, the question is not quite clear to me.

2 Q. All right. I'll approach it a different way. Approximately how

3 many members were there to the platoon?

4 A. There were between -- there was a varying number of members, but

5 on average 25. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Some people would arrive,

6 some would leave. But the average was 25.

7 Q. When you were first assigned to the area around the third

8 skyscraper, how many other members of the platoon, if any, were there with

9 you with that area of control?

10 A. About 25 men. I can't give a precise figure. I don't remember

11 exactly, but about 25 were present.

12 Q. By way of clarification, do you mean that there were 25 around the

13 third skyscraper or over a broader area?

14 A. I thought you were asking me about the number of men in the

15 platoon.

16 Q. How many men were assigned to the third skyscraper?

17 A. There were only the two of us in the third skyscraper.

18 Q. To your knowledge, were there men assigned to each of the four

19 skyscrapers?

20 A. Yes, there were men from our platoon who had been assigned to all

21 four skyscrapers.

22 Q. How many to each skyscraper approximately?

23 A. There were about -- there were three men in the first skyscraper.

24 There were two in the second one. There were two in the third one. And

25 there were four in the fourth skyscraper.

Page 1898

1 Q. Are you aware as to whether the responsibilities for the platoon

2 extended into the interior of the skyscrapers or just the grounds

3 surrounding them?

4 A. We were deployed at that line in order to defend that line. So I

5 want to say to defend that line of defence from any possible attacks, from

6 whatever direction.

7 Q. Did that involve members of your platoon entering and going up

8 into any of the four skyscrapers?

9 A. Yes, but very rarely.

10 Q. Were there any other buildings apart from the four skyscrapers

11 which were within the area of responsibility of your platoon?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What were those buildings?

14 A. The primary school, Borisa Kovacevic; and the pioneer centre,

15 Bosko Buha [phoen].

16 Q. How many members of the platoon were stationed at each of those

17 three sites?

18 A. There was a varying number, but usually there were about four men

19 in the school, four in the nursery, and four in the pioneer centre.

20 Q. What was the name of the commander of your platoon?

21 A. [redacted] was the name of the commander of my platoon.

22 Q. Did he remain the commander throughout the time of your membership

23 of that platoon?

24 A. He didn't. He was only the commander for a certain period of

25 time.

Page 1899

1 Q. Approximately when was he replaced?

2 A. Sometime in the winter, I think. The first following winter, the

3 end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993.

4 Q. What happened to him after he left, to your knowledge?

5 A. Yes, I do know. He became deputy commander of a battalion in

6 Banja Luka.

7 Q. Who replaced him as the platoon commander?

8 A. When I first arrived at the position, he was replaced by [redacted].

9 And this replacement took place when I first arrived at the position. And

10 I can't remember his surname.

11 Q. What period of time was he platoon commander?

12 A. [redacted] is his name. I remember his surname. He was there

13 for a very short period of time. And he later on died.

14 Q. Who replaced him?

15 A. [redacted] replaced him.

16 Q. Was he your commander, that is, the platoon commander, for the

17 duration of the time that you stayed in the platoon?

18 A. Yes, while I was there, he was the platoon commander all that

19 time.

20 Q. Incidentally, when was it that you left the platoon?

21 A. I left at the beginning of May 1993.

22 Q. All right. Now, coming back to the headquarters where you

23 enlisted, how many -- I'll withdraw that.

24 Above a platoon by way of military structure, is there a company?

25 A. That's right.

Page 1900

1 Q. How many platoons were there in your company?

2 A. I think there were three platoons.

3 Q. You mentioned earlier that the headquarters were company

4 headquarters. How many companies were there which -- for which that place

5 was the headquarters?

6 A. There were two companies.

7 Q. Who was your company commander?

8 A. Dragan Maletic was.

9 Q. For what period of time?

10 A. Up until the winter, the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993.

11 Q. What happened to him then?

12 A. He also was transferred to the battalion headquarters, and he had

13 some sort of duties -- some sort of operative duties there. He was

14 responsible for operative activities.

15 Q. Do you know where those battalion headquarters were located?

16 A. Yes, I do. In Banja Luka Street.

17 Q. Earlier you said that the first commander of your platoon became

18 deputy commander of the battalion. Did you mean, in relation to him,

19 deputy commander of the battalion with its headquarters at Banja Luka

20 Street?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. What was the name of that battalion?

23 A. I don't know. I'm not sure that it had a particular name. I

24 can't remember.

25 Q. When you said that your commander became deputy commander of --

Page 1901

1 withdraw that.

2 When you said that your company commander later became deputy

3 commander of the battalion, did you mean by that the commander which was

4 above your company?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. So having regard to your evidence, both your first platoon

7 commander and a later company commander were promoted to a battalion level

8 during your time in the platoon; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Who was the battalion commander?

11 A. The commander of the battalion was Stojanovic at the beginning,

12 and then he was followed by Commander Aleksandar Petrovic.

13 Q. Do you know the names of any of the commanders above the battalion

14 level?

15 A. I know the name of a certain officer whom they often mentioned.

16 His surname was Milosevic. I don't know what rank he held or what duties

17 he performed, but they often spoke about him in conversations.

18 Q. Let me take you back to the time of your enlistment. You've told

19 us that you had done military service at an earlier point in your life.

20 Did that military service result in any documentation that you possessed?

21 A. Yes. I had a military service booklet.

22 Q. Did you produce that at the time that you enlisted?

23 A. Yes. We had to provide that military service booklet to the

24 headquarters that we spoke about earlier on in Grbavica. A few days

25 later, this booklet was returned to us and we were allowed to hold onto

Page 1902

1 it.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown a

3 booklet and some accompanying papers. I indicate that this is the

4 original of Exhibit number P289. Exhibit P289 is, in effect, a photocopy

5 of the booklet that the witness is to be shown.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I remind you that we would talk about

7 documents as long as they were not yet admitted into evidence, and that

8 you would also indicate whether you intend to tender the document into

9 evidence or not or just have it marked for identification. I assume that

10 you want to tender into this evidence this document.

11 MR. IERACE: Just the photocopy, Mr. President, not the original.

12 I simply want the witness to identify the original.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Could you again, Mr. Ierace, be very

14 careful as far as showing any part of this evidence on the ELMO is

15 concerned, for obvious reasons.

16 MR. IERACE: I have that in mind. Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Sir, do you recognise the booklet that you have been shown?

18 A. Yes, I can recognise it. It's my booklet.

19 Q. What sort of booklet is it?

20 A. It's a military booklet, a military service booklet.

21 Q. Is that the booklet that you handed over when you enlisted?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You told us that it was returned to you a few days later. When it

24 was returned, was there anything added to the booklet?

25 A. I think that it was stamped. Some sort of stamp had been added,

Page 1903












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1904

1 designating a military post to which my unit belonged.

2 Q. Would you please indicate the page or pages on which these stamps

3 were added.

4 A. It's on page 15.

5 Q. Am I correct in saying that your name does not appear on the entry

6 on that page?

7 A. No, it's not there.

8 Q. In that case, would you please read, firstly, the handwritten

9 words which were entered on that page.

10 A. Military post, 7.536, Han Pijesak, the 22nd of June, 1992.

11 Q. Do you know what "Han Pijesak" refers to?

12 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but I think the Sarajevo-Romanija

13 Corps was located there.

14 Q. Now, there's also a stamp which appears over that wording. Would

15 you please read the words which appear on the stamp.

16 A. It says "Military post, 7.536, Han Pijesak."

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you for that. Now, with the booklet, I think

18 there are some sheets of paper. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recognise those pieces of paper?

21 A. Yes, I recognise them.

22 Q. Does each of them have a date?

23 A. Yes, there are dates on them.

24 Q. Would you please go to the piece of paper which has the earliest

25 date. Well, firstly, how many pieces of paper are there?

Page 1905

1 A. Three pieces of paper here.

2 Q. Would you please go to the piece of paper which has the earliest

3 date and tell us essentially what it is.

4 A. It's an authorisation. It's a grant for absence of leave [as

5 interpreted]. Authorisation is granted to the soldier from the 10th of

6 October until the 18th of October, 1992. His leave shall be taken

7 advantage of in Sombor, and it also says that there is also a line where

8 the battalion commander can sign. It's been signed and there is a stamp.

9 The authorisation was issued on the 9th of October, 1992. The number is

10 1.530 through 92.

11 Q. Who is the soldier that it relates to?

12 A. It relates to me.

13 Q. Yes, all right. So that's leave -- I take it from what you have

14 said, it's a leave authorisation in respect of yourself. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the interests of saving time, do either of the other two slips

17 of paper -- are either of the other two slips of paper authorisations of

18 leave?

19 A. Yes. And the next smaller piece of paper is also authorisation

20 for leave of absence, and the third paper relates to another authorisation

21 granting me -- granting authorisation to cross the border of the Federal

22 Republic of Yugoslavia.

23 Q. Both of those further authorisations relate to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were the relevant dates for the second leave authorisation in

Page 1906

1 time?

2 A. From the 10th of May to the 18th of May, 1993.

3 Q. What --

4 A. Sorry. The date on which authorisation was granted is the 8th of

5 May 1993. It has also been signed by the command, by the battalion

6 command in Banja Luka Street. The deputy commander signed it. This

7 authorisation was signed in my presence.

8 Q. Who was the deputy commander?

9 A. It was [redacted].

10 Q. Does the third slip of paper relate to a different period of leave

11 or the same period as one of the other two?

12 A. As I said, it relates to a different period of leave.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes the questions I seek to

14 ask in relation to the booklet and the slips of paper. As I earlier

15 indicated, I will be tendering the photocopies of those documents. In the

16 meantime, might the originals be returned.

17 I would also ask that the witness be shown again the map which was

18 earlier described as Map 1.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before we start to cover a new issue,

20 Mr. Ierace, would this be a suitable time to have a short break? And may

21 I also remind you that you are a little bit over 50 percent of time

22 indication.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just in relation to that, I appreciate

24 that there was a two-hour estimate on this witness. I anticipate that it

25 may take longer than two hours to get through the essential evidence in

Page 1907

1 chief. I've already moved -- I've already reached the point where I will

2 not lead from this witness any of the detailed history of the

3 pre-indictment period. I seek the understanding of the Trial Chamber and

4 seek that I be granted some additional time, if needed, to complete the

5 essential evidence in chief. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any idea yet on how much time you would

7 need, or extra time?

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would have a better idea towards the

9 end of the two hours, but I anticipate at this stage it will probably be

10 an additional hour. It may not be that long; it may be a little longer.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll consider your request.

13 We'll then adjourn until 11.30.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to be informed by the

17 parties about the differences of names on the list. Has it been sorted

18 out yet or not? Not.

19 MR. IERACE: Not.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please both provide me again with the

21 list just for one second. Mr. Usher, if you would please again

22 bring -- yes, please. Defence also. Yes, please. I would like to have

23 the lists. Yes, I'll do it in Dutch.

24 I can't give you a solution. I don't know -- is there any

25 specific reason why the parties could not solve this problem during a

Page 1908

1 half-hour break or ...?

2 MR. IERACE: There isn't, Mr. President. There is not.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's leave it just -- if there's no

4 reason to be explained, unless Mr. Piletta-Zanin has any -- if there's no

5 reason, I'll just inform you that when I specifically ask you to do

6 something over the break -- because I checked all the details about

7 witness case as far as I could find them, and I'm a bit surprised that the

8 parties did not follow the instructions.

9 Yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence took advantage of

11 the break to have a meeting with General Galic, which seemed to be urgent

12 and essential.


14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And that is why.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise. I can inform the Trial

16 Chamber that on Friday I spoke to my learned friend Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and

17 we have arranged to meet after court this afternoon, that is, after we

18 finish in the Trial Chamber.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it would be possible to spend five minutes

20 of the lunch break on this issue so that we would be informed this

21 afternoon, and then perhaps have a longer meeting. I think five minutes

22 would be possible.

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is with pleasure that the

25 Defence will accord that time.

Page 1909

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

2 We then will continue the cross-examination of -- the

3 examination-in-chief of Witness D.


5 Q. Sir, when did you cease to be a member of the platoon?

6 A. At the beginning of May, 1993.

7 Q. What were the circumstances?

8 A. I went on leave and did not return.

9 Q. Why did you not return?

10 A. I did not return because I was afraid for my life. I was afraid

11 I'd be killed.

12 Q. Who did you fear would kill you?

13 A. I was afraid I would be killed in battle, in the conflicts, and I

14 wanted to join up with my family.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you some more questions now about the chain of

16 command. You've told us the names of your platoon commander and company

17 commander and something of the structure. When you received orders from

18 time to time, who gave you those orders?

19 A. We received orders from the leaders of the companies and platoons.

20 Q. In what way did you receive those orders? For instance, were they

21 written or were they given to you orally or were they passed to you by

22 other people, or what?

23 A. We received oral orders, and usually those orders were given

24 during the evening reviews, and also in the mornings, before we left to

25 take up our positions.

Page 1910

1 Q. Whereabouts were the morning meetings held?

2 A. They were also held at the headquarters, which are marked on the

3 map.

4 Q. Where were the evening reviews conducted?

5 A. At those same headquarters.

6 Q. Typically, who would attend those two types of meetings?

7 A. The leader of the platoon and the leader of the company.

8 Sometimes the leader of the company was absent, but the platoon leader was

9 always present.

10 Q. What about the other members of the platoon itself?

11 A. Who do you mean when you say "other members of the platoon"?

12 Q. Your fellow soldiers in the platoon.

13 A. They would also attend the reviews. Let me be clearer: Before

14 taking up our positions, we would attend the reviews, which means that if

15 we had a daily shift, we would go to the headquarters for review. Or if

16 it was an evening shift, we would go to the headquarters once again first,

17 and then go to take up our positions.

18 Q. How long were the shifts?

19 A. About 10 minutes, maybe 15.

20 Q. What period of time were you on duty per day?

21 A. The shifts and shift schedules differed, but usually it meant a

22 12-hour shift, and then we would have 24 hours off. But sometimes we

23 would be off for only 12 hours, unless we were at Grbavica and other

24 positions. And we would be on those positions for five or six days at a

25 go sometimes, which means that we didn't attend the reviews but we would

Page 1911

1 stay in our positions throughout at that time.

2 Q. Where were you living whilst you were a member of the platoon?

3 A. First of all, I lived in my own house. And then later on, I lived

4 in my parents' apartment together with them.

5 Q. Coming back to the issue of commander control, in between the

6 morning and evening briefings, did you have any means of communication to

7 your platoon commander, that is, when you were in the field?

8 A. We did have the possibility of communicating with the

9 headquarters. We had a telephone link. But let me mention that it was a

10 military telephone link, not a civilian line. It was a special telephone

11 communications line set up for that purpose.

12 Q. Typically, where was your platoon commander when you were on duty?

13 A. He was usually at the headquarters.

14 Q. During the morning and evening meetings, were you and your fellow

15 soldiers able to raise any matters if you wished with your commanders?

16 A. Yes, we could.

17 Q. Did you have any impression as to where the orders that you

18 received from your commanders originated?

19 A. It was my impression that those orders came from the battalion

20 command in Banja Luka Street. And I can support that, substantiate it, by

21 some things that I personally heard.

22 Q. What were those things and who said them?

23 A. This refers to conversations with platoon or company leaders, and

24 with respect to our deployment to other positions. None of us liked to

25 take up those new positions, and we tried to solve the problem. We wanted

Page 1912

1 to avoid going. But we were always told that the problem would be brought

2 up for discussion at the headquarters, but that there was little

3 likelihood of the decision being in my favour. If there were any other

4 problems that they weren't able to give an answer to, they promised that

5 they would ask at the meetings in the battalion headquarters and try to

6 solve the problem that had arisen.

7 Q. You said that you were told that the problem would be brought up

8 for discussion at the headquarters, and you were told that by your platoon

9 and company leaders. Which headquarters were they referring to?

10 A. You could only have a discussion up to a certain point, but the

11 headquarters they meant was the battalion headquarters in Banja Luka

12 Street. That's what I said.

13 Q. Now, when you commenced as a member of the platoon, were you given

14 orders?

15 A. We received orders that we had to be at our positions where we had

16 been deployed and that we should not leave our positions. Those were

17 strict orders. And also, orders with respect to when we were to open fire

18 or not.

19 Q. What were those orders?

20 A. Which orders do you mean of the ones that I mentioned?

21 Q. The orders with respect to when you were to open fire or not.

22 A. The orders were that we could open fire freely. That's what was

23 literally said. They told us that we could shoot at anything that moved.

24 Q. Who first gave you that order?

25 A. The platoon commander.

Page 1913












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1914

1 Q. Did you receive any orders as to whom you were to fire upon from

2 your company commander at any stage?

3 A. Yes. He issued orders with respect to firing, and the orders

4 were - let me repeat once again - that we could fire at anything and

5 everything that moved, and anything we thought might jeopardise our

6 positions.

7 Q. When you received those orders from your platoon and company

8 commander, was any distinction drawn between civilians and combatants?

9 A. No, no distinction of that kind was ever drawn. Nobody ever said

10 that we should fire at something or not fire at something else.

11 Q. Did you ever receive orders during your time in the platoon from

12 any of your commanders to the effect that you were not to fire upon

13 civilians?

14 A. I never received any order to that effect expressly stated.

15 Q. During your time in the platoon -- withdraw that. When you joined

16 the platoon, were you provided with a firearm or firearms?

17 A. Yes, I was. I received a rifle, a semi-automatic rifle, in fact.

18 Q. What calibre?

19 A. 7.62 millimetres.

20 Q. During your time in the platoon, did you ever fire your firearm?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Typically, what were the circumstances when you discharged your

23 firearm?

24 A. For example, in circumstances when something in the dark would

25 rustle in the bushes and I thought there was somebody moving around, in

Page 1915

1 situations like that.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown Map 1.

3 That is the map he had earlier.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: I'm about to ask the witness to place some further

6 markings on the map. Mr. President, do you have a preference as to the

7 colour of the pen that the witness should use? I should indicate that it

8 already has some black and blue markings on it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Blue is the colour of the

10 Defence as far as I remember. Black was the colour of the Prosecution.

11 If it would be possible to use a thick marker perhaps and still stay with

12 black, and later on have the thick marker be used also for the Defence if

13 any additional markings are required.

14 Are there any thick markers? Because what's on the map now is all

15 rather thin.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think we have a thick black

17 marker here, but perhaps the witness could place a number of black marks

18 rather than one single one so as to emphasise the thickness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Are there no thick markers around, Madam Registrar?

20 We found a thick black marker to start with.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

23 the Defence would like to stress that it considers it would be more useful

24 if the witness were shown the empty map that we used and the one we

25 decided to use for each witness depending on the markings they would make,

Page 1916

1 especially, as I said, this is only a section of town. It's not a whole

2 map. It just shows a section of town. I don't know how relevant it will

3 be for this witness to mark in the positions on this section map.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think the difference might be that this map is far

5 more detailed than the big black-and-white map we used. So if the

6 Prosecution needs this detail, then I think -- what we also could do is to

7 have this -- is there any extra copies, so that we have the pre-marked map

8 as the first exhibit and then the at-the-trial-marked map as a second

9 exhibit to be tendered into evidence, so that there will be no

10 misunderstanding? So the blank map would then be the pre-marked blank

11 map. Do we have any extra copy?

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I took some steps to try to obtain a

13 blank copy for that reason, and one was not available.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I don't mind if you use the pre-marked copy, but if

15 these are two exhibits, then, of course, it is clear what is the

16 pre-marked one and what has been added on the second one. So I wouldn't

17 mind you to use this map, but an extra copy tendered separately into

18 evidence.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in that case I -- excuse me,

20 Mr. President.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in that case, I'll take a different

23 course. I had intended to avoid tendering unnecessarily a number of

24 maps. I ask that the witness be shown Map 3 of the same exhibit number,

25 and that will necessitate a further sticker being placed over the

Page 1917

1 witness's name.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you then have him make markings on it, or

3 not?

4 MR. IERACE: Yes. On reflection, Mr. President, perhaps the

5 witness should be given a second copy of Map 1, because there are some

6 additional markings to be made. I hand up an additional copy of Map 1,

7 which has the witness's name removed, and perhaps we should call this Map

8 1A so as to distinguish it from the other.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think for the Registry it's easier if it gets a

10 specific exhibit number, and there will be a sticker put on it later on.

11 And since there's a distinctive number, it must be clear enough. So now

12 an additional copy of the first page of what has been introduced earlier

13 as -- if you just allow me one second.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you use another copy, please keep

16 together all five pages, because exhibits -- well, still documents, but

17 soon to be Exhibit 3637, consist of five pages. So if we have the copy

18 that will be used by the witness later marked as Exhibit 3637D, for

19 Witness D, then it should also consist of five pages, because

20 that's -- otherwise we have to give it new numbers, et cetera. So if you

21 please have a copy of the pre-marked map similar as the one that has been

22 shown before to the witness. Markings can be made on that map, and it

23 later will get number 3637D.

24 Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence accepts

Page 1918

1 that it be this map, but not parts of the map, because I think for the

2 Prosecution, the Defence, and the Trial Chamber, it would be more useful

3 if we had all the positions marked in this one map which the witness has

4 marked in the five copies of sections of the map.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I said five -- it should be five pages. So all the

6 pages indicating it's Map 1, 2 -- Map 1, Map 2, Map 3, Map 4, Map 5. So

7 all the five can now be presented to the witness.

8 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I take this

10 opportunity to say that if Defence should ask questions during its

11 cross-examination concerning other portions of the map, it is going to be

12 very difficult, because we do not have an entire map. It would be very

13 useful for us to have the whole town depicted in a map. It would

14 facilitate our work to a great extent. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think the objection -- if the Prosecution

16 wants to provide this map to the witness with these details, then I think

17 there's no reason not to admit it. Of course, you can come up with

18 another map of the whole city, and whatever one you use, and cross-examine

19 the witness on the subjects covered by the examination-in-chief.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


22 Q. Sir, would you please go to Map 3. Sir, do you see on Map 3 a

23 blue line alongside the river?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Do you recognise the markings on this map as having been made by

Page 1919

1 you in February of 1997?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber the significance of

4 the blue line on that map.

5 A. The blue line indicates one part of the positions on the Miljacka

6 River, where my platoon was deployed.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, would you please point to that blue line which is

8 on the display at the moment.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Thank you. Now, whilst you were stationed in that position during

11 those times, did you see any other members of the military enter those

12 buildings, that is, persons other than members of your platoon?

13 A. Occasionally some individuals who were members of the army but not

14 members of my platoon would come to those buildings; however, not very

15 often. I apologise. I'm sorry. I just want to say that what I just said

16 refers to the period of time while we were there, because after our shift,

17 other platoons would be deployed to the same area. So I'm talking about

18 my shift. During our presence there, from time to time soldiers belonging

19 to other units would visit those positions. When we were not there, other

20 soldiers, that is, members of other platoons, were there.

21 Q. Do you know whether the soldiers who entered the buildings had any

22 particular skills?

23 A. Soldiers who were assigned to sniper activity would visit those

24 skyscrapers.

25 Q. Were there any such soldiers in your platoon, that is, soldiers

Page 1920

1 assigned to sniper activity?

2 A. No, not from our platoon.

3 Q. Were there any such soldiers assigned to your company?

4 A. The soldiers who were in charge of sniper activity were not

5 directly members of our company, but they would always go to the

6 headquarters that I indicated earlier on and would go to those positions

7 at the same time we did.

8 Q. When you refer to headquarters, do you mean the company

9 headquarters or the battalion headquarters?

10 A. I'm referring to the company headquarters.

11 Q. Do I understand you to mean that each morning, members of the

12 sniping unit would accompany your platoon to the skyscrapers?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. From where you were positioned, that is, on the -- at the ground

15 level around the skyscrapers, did you from time to time hear the sound of

16 any firearms emanating from the upper levels of the skyscrapers?

17 A. Yes, I heard that sound very often. They were actually never down

18 there where we were on ground level positions but upstairs. But I don't

19 know exactly which floors they occupied. I don't know that.

20 Q. Did you ever speak with any members of the sniper unit that was

21 operating from the skyscrapers?

22 A. Very often we had opportunity to talk to them, sometimes when they

23 were going to the skyscraper or leaving the skyscraper.

24 Q. Did they ever discuss the nature of their targets?

25 A. They would usually say that they had hit someone. However, I was

Page 1921

1 never sure whether they had actually hit someone or whether it was merely

2 their intention to leave such an impression on us. I'm not sure that they

3 had indeed hit someone every time they said that. Sometimes I had the

4 impression that they merely wanted to say that they had had a very

5 successful day.

6 Q. You've told us that they attended the same briefing meetings as

7 you. Did you ever hear them receive any separate orders from those that

8 were given to you and the other soldiers in the platoon?

9 A. It was my impression that they received orders from the battalion

10 headquarters.

11 Q. You've told us that from time to time, you were stationed at a

12 different section. Whereabouts was that?

13 A. I was referring to the area which I had marked with a blue line on

14 the map.

15 Q. Which map is that? Which number?

16 A. Map Number 3. Map Number 3. What I want to say was that I was

17 occasionally stationed at the first, second, and then the third

18 skyscraper, or the fourth one. Sometimes I was at the position which was

19 referred to as Obdanesta [phoen], a kindergarten, or pioneer's house. But

20 most often I was deployed at the first skyscraper.

21 Q. I think you also told us on a number of occasions you were moved

22 to a quite different area. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Whereabouts was that?

25 A. Those positions were in Ozrenska Street.

Page 1922

1 Q. Do you see those positions on the map to your right, that is, the

2 positions in Ozrenska Street?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Would you please use the pointer to indicate those positions.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the machine might zoom back to

6 allow us a greater field of vision of the map. Thank you.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think -- yes, it is now

9 picking it up.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I just didn't see that the sticker was on it, but I

11 see it now.


13 Q. Sir, would you please indicate those positions on Ozrenska Street

14 again.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Thank you. How many times were you stationed in that area during

17 the period that you were a member of the platoon?

18 A. Six or seven times.

19 Q. When was the last time approximately that you were --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, in order to enable the Chamber to later

21 on know where exactly the witness pointed at, could you please ask, since

22 this is a copy to be marked by the witness, to mark especially Ozrenska

23 Street.

24 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President. But before he does that, I

25 have been advised by a member of my legal team that on an occasion I think

Page 1923












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1924

1 last week, you indicated that blue was the colour for the Prosecution, and

2 black for the Defence, so I thought I --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I am mistaken. I have to look that up. But let me

4 have -- perhaps Ms. Pilipovic, could you be of assistance? Blue was for

5 the ... ?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Blue was for

7 the Prosecution and black for the Defence.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm very sorry to have created any confusion.

9 MR. IERACE: I think there is a blue thick pen on the witness's

10 table, Mr. President. So I'll invite him to use that.

11 Q. Sir, could you please take the blue pen and mark the area of your

12 positions on Ozrenska Street on the map in front of you -- to your right,

13 I should say.

14 MR. IERACE: And might the machine zoom back, Mr. President, if

15 that could happen. No, the other way.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Zoom out, please. Yes.

17 A. [Marks]


19 Q. Approximately when was the last occasion that you were stationed

20 in that area?

21 A. In the winter of 1993. In February, I think. It was wintertime

22 at any rate.

23 Q. How many occasions all together approximately were you positioned

24 there?

25 A. On six or seven occasions, each time we would stay for about five

Page 1925

1 days but without interruption. And the last time we were there, we stayed

2 only one night.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown some

4 photographs. It is P3251. Indeed, I think just that one photograph will

5 suffice, since it has its own exhibit number, P3251.

6 Before that, at one point, Mr. President, that will be placed on

7 the machine. And for that reason, there's a signature that needs to be

8 obscured. So perhaps the photograph could be shown initially to

9 Ms. Harris.

10 All right. Perhaps it could now be placed on the machine. Yes.

11 Q. Sir, do you recognise the view which appears in the photograph

12 before you?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. I think your signature appears on that page, together with a date

15 placed by you. Is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Were you present when the photograph was taken?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. Where was the photograph taken from?

20 A. The photograph was taken from Ozrenska Street, or from a position

21 which was perhaps just 2 metres away from that street.

22 Q. Was the photograph taken by an investigator of the Office of the

23 Prosecution by the name of Johnathan Tait-Harris?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. Was the taking of the photograph following some directions given

Page 1926

1 by you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does the city of Sarajevo appear in the mid-ground of the

4 photograph?

5 A. Yes, it does.

6 Q. What is the --

7 A. The urban area of the city, that is, with high-rise buildings.

8 Q. What is the approximate direction that the camera was facing?

9 A. The camera was facing north.

10 Q. In the foreground there appear to be some yellow- or

11 orange-coloured piles of rubble; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Where were the positions on which you were located in relation to

14 the foreground of the photograph?

15 A. Here, where this rubble is, was a house, a two-storey house,

16 whereas our positions were some 15 metres below this house which was

17 destroyed.

18 Q. When you refer to "our positions," do you mean the confrontation

19 line or something else?

20 A. Yes. That's where the trenches were, the trenches where our

21 positions were. That is where the trenches had been dug up, and we stayed

22 in those trenches while we were there.

23 Q. As of February 1993, how far were the confrontation lines from the

24 trenches at this position?

25 A. Could you please repeat the question?

Page 1927

1 Q. Yes. You've told us that there were trenches some 15 metres below

2 the house which now appears as a pile of rubble. How far beyond those

3 trenches were the confrontation lines, that is, the lines of confrontation

4 with the other side, the forces of the other side?

5 A. The distance was not very great for sure; however, I couldn't be

6 more precise. I don't know how far from us were the soldiers of the other

7 side, because I never actually saw them. I cannot tell you specifically

8 what the difference was between our trenches and their trenches, I

9 suppose, because I couldn't see them. But because this is a slope, with a

10 large number of private houses, I suppose, I assume, that they were very

11 close.

12 Q. You've told us that you placed a date on this copy of the

13 photograph, that is, the 6th of July, 2001. How long before that date was

14 it, approximately, that this photograph was taken in your presence?

15 A. Between seven and ten days before, thereabouts.

16 Q. In the photograph, in the mid-ground, there appear some roofs of

17 houses. In a general sense, were those roofs there in February of 1993?

18 A. I don't think that these roofs were there, because the whole area

19 was riddled with bullets or burnt down in front of us. There were no

20 roofs that were not damaged, like the ones that you can see on this

21 photograph.

22 Q. On the occasions that you were positioned at Ozrenska Street, did

23 you observe any members of the sniping unit operating from the same

24 vicinity, that is, the sniping that you've told us about earlier?

25 A. Yes, I did. It was from this house whose rubble you can see on

Page 1928

1 the picture that I was able to observe that.

2 Q. You said earlier the house was two storeys. Was there also a

3 basement?

4 A. Yes. It had a basement and two additional storeys. It did not

5 have a cellar.

6 Q. On the lower side of the house, given that it's apparent from the

7 photograph it was built on a slope, was any of the basement exposed above

8 ground level?

9 A. Yes. That is the ground floor that I spoke about, the ground

10 floor plus two floors. So the house had the ground floor and two upper

11 storeys.

12 Q. I think you said earlier that you were positioned in a trench that

13 was some 15 metres in front of the house. From your position, could you

14 see any part of the snipers or any part of their weaponry protruding from

15 the house behind you?

16 A. Yes, I could clearly see that.

17 Q. From time to time, did you hear the sound of firearms coming from

18 the house?

19 A. Yes, I did, very often.

20 Q. Did you ever see the equipment, if any, that the snipers had, that

21 is, the snipers who were in that house?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. What equipment was that?

24 A. The equipment consisted of a very long-barrelled rifle. The

25 barrel was much longer than the barrels that we had. This rifle also had

Page 1929

1 telescopic sights, some kind of binoculars with a rubber eyepiece on it,

2 which was at the end of the sights, plus they had binoculars and something

3 like a telescope with which you had much greater visibility and you could

4 see your target closer than normally. Apart from that, I also had an

5 opportunity to see a special kind of machine-gun which had optic sights

6 fitted on it.

7 Q. Had you seen that kind of machine-gun before?

8 A. What do you mean, "before"? You mean before the war or ...?

9 Q. Before you saw it at the house at Ozrenska Street, had you seen

10 that type of machine-gun?

11 A. Yes, I had, yes. I had seen this type of machine-gun before, and

12 I had also seen sniper rifles at Grbavica before that, when snipers came

13 to take up their positions.

14 Q. You have told us that you heard the sound of firearms coming from

15 the house. Was that single shots or automatic fire or both?

16 A. Single shots were fired from sniper rifles. As for this type of

17 machine-gun that I told you about, mostly it was short, brief automatic

18 fire. So yes, I heard both single shots and bursts of fire.

19 Q. During your periods in Ozrenska Street, did you ever speak to the

20 snipers who were positioned there?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Did they ever discuss the nature of their targets?

23 A. Yes, they did. They targeted civilians and soldiers alike.

24 Q. From where you were positioned, were you able to determine

25 approximately the areas, that is, the physical areas, that they were

Page 1930

1 targeting?

2 A. I was able to determine, that is, to assume where the physical

3 areas are, by looking at the barrels. But I also had an opportunity to

4 see the skyscraper which they targeted through binoculars which was right

5 in front of us.

6 Q. From your observations, were you able to determine whether they

7 targeted roads and intersections in particular?

8 A. The shooting was usually at the intersections and the

9 transversals, as they were called, which were built horizontally around

10 town and could be seen very well from those positions.

11 Q. Could you please explain what you mean by a "transversal".

12 A. They are broad roads down the width of the city, not

13 longitudinally, and they form intersections with the vertical roads.

14 Q. You've told us that you were there in February 1993. By that

15 time, did you notice whether there were any barriers of any type that had

16 been erected on intersections in the city?

17 A. Yes, I did. With binoculars, I could see some containers that had

18 been set up to protect passersby who had to cross to the other side of the

19 street. And they were sort of protection barrier from sniper fire or fire

20 from this type of machine-gun or other weapons.

21 Q. In spite of the existence of the barriers, did you make any

22 observations as to whether those intersections still were targeted by the

23 snipers in the house behind you?

24 A. Yes, those places were targeted. And if you looked through a pair

25 of binoculars, you could always see somebody going up to the container or

Page 1931

1 passing by behind the container on his way to a building. You could see

2 this with your binoculars. But sometimes people weren't as

3 safety-conscious and would cross at points where there were no containers,

4 and you could observe this clearly using your binoculars. You could see

5 people passing by that way.

6 Q. Did the snipers ever discuss with you the targeting of persons at

7 intersections where there were containers or other barriers?

8 A. Yes, they did. And they confirmed that they were targeting that

9 kind of target.

10 Q. I now refer you back to the photograph that you have in front of

11 you, and I think on it you placed a red circle. Will you please wait

12 while the photograph is placed back on to the machine so that we can all

13 see the red circle.

14 And can you indicate whether you placed that red circle on the

15 photograph, that is, the original photograph?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. What is the significance of the red circle?

18 A. The red circle signifies an intersection which was targeted from

19 the positions I was deployed in.

20 Q. You've told us that you were in Ozrenska Street as late as

21 February 1993. Was that the case then? Was that the situation then?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Earlier you marked an area that is a length of Ozrenska Street as

24 indicating the positions that you occupied. Were there other houses along

25 the street, apart from the one the remains of which appear in the

Page 1932

1 photograph, where you were also positioned?

2 A. Yes, there were.

3 Q. I refer you again to February 1993, for instance. At that time,

4 were there other houses to your left and right along Ozrenska Street

5 which, to your knowledge, were occupied by members of sniping units?

6 A. You mean February 1993?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The last time I was there.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. No, they were only in that house.

11 Q. What about on earlier times that you were positioned in Ozrenska

12 Street? Were there other houses that also contained -- withdraw that.

13 Was there more than one house? Were there more than one house that

14 contained snipers?

15 A. Yes, there were, and they changed positions frequently. There

16 would be several snipers, but they would also change their positions and

17 move from one house to another and so on.

18 Q. I suppose that made good sense as a defensive measure, according

19 to your understanding. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You've told us that there were snipers - that is, members of the

22 sniping unit - who occupied the skyscrapers down by the river. Did you

23 ever see them with telescopes?

24 A. Yes, I did. They were there every day in those skyscrapers. They

25 were always there, and they had the same equipment. But I never saw them

Page 1933












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1934

1 entering the skyscrapers with the machine-gun, just with the snipers.

2 Q. Apart from the optical telescopes that you have told us about, did

3 you ever see members of the sniping unit, either at Ozrenska Street or by

4 the river, with different types of telescopic sights?

5 A. They had a separate telescope which was not mounted on the rifle.

6 It was much broader, much wider, than the one on a rifle, and they were

7 able to see the target better using this device.

8 Q. Did you ever see sights that were apparently intended to operate

9 in poor light conditions, that is, in the possession of members of the

10 sniping unit?

11 A. Yes. They had the so-called infrared ones.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't intend to ask any more

13 questions about the photograph which is presently before the witness, so

14 that particular photograph might be removed from the machine. I will, in

15 a few moments, be asking questions about the other photographs. I ask now

16 that the witness be shown another exhibit, namely, Exhibit P3638. By way

17 of description, it is a photocopy of pages from a manual of various

18 firearms. We're in the process of covering up the witness's name which

19 appears from time to time on the pages in the form of a signature,

20 Mr. President.

21 Q. To save time whilst that's being done: Sir, in June 2001, were

22 you shown a booklet depicting various small arms and other military

23 equipment by investigator Jonathan Tait-Harris?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. Were you invited to go through the manual and indicate, by a tick,

Page 1935

1 any weaponry that you had observed to be in the possession of your fellow

2 soldiers whilst you were a platoon member?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you do that?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Did you date and sign each of those pages?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. That is the pages upon which you recognised such equipment?

9 A. Yes. Yes. That's what I meant.

10 Q. Were you also shown, apart from small arms, a number of

11 photographs of much larger equipment, such as troop carriers, tanks, APCs,

12 and the like?

13 A. Yes. I was shown photographs of that nature too.

14 Q. In a similar way, did you indicate one of those items as being one

15 that you had observed to have been in the possession of the military with

16 which you served in 1992 and 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown a copy

19 of that exhibit, that is, Exhibit P3638, which has the names covered, and

20 I ask that the witness place the last page on the viewing machine, to

21 enable the Chamber to view the top half of that page. It might be drawn

22 further down.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.

24 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you. If you could stop there.

25 Q. Having regard to my earlier questions and your answers, sir, I

Page 1936

1 take it that the machine which appears at the top of the page in three

2 separate photographs was one that you recognised?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. What did you call that type of machine?

5 A. An armoured APC, armoured personal

6 carrier.

7 Q. All right. Now, in relation to the small arms, do you recognise

8 any that you saw in the possession of members of the sniping unit?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In order to help you with that, would you -- to assist you in that

11 activity, would you indicate to the usher the page on which those items or

12 item appears, and then we can see them one by one; or if there's only one,

13 just the one. I think on the machine we now have page 1344. I'll refer

14 to the last four digits of the number at the top right-hand corner. I

15 take it from your answer that you saw that -- one of those two small arms

16 in the possession of the members of the sniping unit. Is that correct?

17 If you could answer that question. Yes? And which of the two was it?

18 The M-70B1 or the M-70B2, or both? I withdraw that. I just realised I'm

19 on a different page.

20 I think you placed a tick alongside each of the two weapons; is

21 that correct? Have you placed a tick alongside each of the two weapons

22 which appears on that page?

23 A. Yes. Both are ticked. But the snipers used weapons shown on the

24 upper half of the picture.

25 Q. I think that weapon is indicated as being an M-76. Is that so?

Page 1937

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do intend to tender this document.

3 I apologise for not having indicated that earlier. I now move on to

4 another one of the maps, and might the witness be shown Map 5. I think

5 the usher has a copy which has the signature covered. Could that please

6 be placed on the overview machine.

7 Q. Sir, was this also a map on which you placed markings in February

8 of 1997?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And was that in response to being requested to indicate where you

11 had seen various mortars, tanks, Howitzers, and APCs?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you do that by placing an "A" where you had observed an APC?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Did these markings indicate positions where you had observed an

16 APC at some stage between the commencement of a war in April 1992 and when

17 you left Sarajevo in May of 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. For the benefit of the Chamber, with the pointer, would you please

20 indicate those positions, that is, where the letter "A" appears.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Yes. All right. Now, did you use the letter "T" to indicate

23 either a tank or groups of tanks that you had observed in the same period?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you please with the pointer indicate where you placed the

Page 1938

1 "T."

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. I think you've just indicated five positions. Is that correct?

4 A. I apologise, but I didn't count.

5 Q. All right. In any event, I'll take you back to the last position

6 you indicated. Could you please point to it again.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. All right. Did you use the letter "M" to indicate where you had

9 observed in the same period either a mortar or a group of mortars?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Please indicate where you placed the letter "M" with the pointer.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Did you use the letter "C" to indicate where you had observed a

14 cannon?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please point to where you have placed the letter "C." And in

17 fact, this is in relation to the same period, I take it, the same period

18 of time?

19 A. Yes. [Indicates]

20 Q. Did you use the letter "H" to refer to Howitzer?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you please indicate where you placed the letter "H" to refer

23 to Howitzers, I take it, in the same period of time.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. And were those observations made by you in the same period of

Page 1939

1 time, between April 1992 and May 1993?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, is this the position that having regard to the topography,

4 there was no line of sight from the -- I'll withdraw that. Having regard

5 to the topography, was there a line of sight from the position where you

6 marked the Howitzers to the city?

7 A. Yes, there was, in the distance far away.

8 Q. When you refer to cannon, could you explain what type of equipment

9 you meant by that?

10 A. The "H" denotes the guns that I thought were Howitzer-type guns.

11 Q. One of the positions in which you have marked a tank appears in

12 the vicinity of the Transit Road. Could you please point to that T so

13 that the Trial Chamber can see it.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber the circumstances in which

16 you made observations of a tank or tanks at that position.

17 A. This position from which the tank fired can be seen from my

18 parents' apartment where I was living. And the tanks, when they were not

19 active, were parked in -- close by to my parents' apartment. So I could

20 always see them leaving and coming out on this Transit section, when they

21 were going out to begin operation. And I could see with my bare eye when

22 the actual shooting was taking place. And the same applies to the APC,

23 which was parked in front of my parents' apartment block throughout the

24 time that I was there, which means from April 1992 to May 1993.

25 Q. How often throughout that period would you make those observations

Page 1940

1 of the APC and the tank or tanks moving from the parking position to the

2 Transit Road and then firing?

3 A. Fairly often. Two or three times a week perhaps.

4 Q. You've told us earlier that that part of Grbavica was on a slope

5 transgressed by the Transit Road. Was the parking place lower or on the

6 same level or higher than the Transit Road from which it fired?

7 A. The place they were parked was lower with respect to the positions

8 they opened fire from, being tanks or APCs.

9 Q. Sorry. If you could imagine being in that apartment and looking

10 towards the?

11 A. Looking from the apartment window, the tanks were parked to my

12 left, and the place the APC was parked was directly underneath the window

13 of the apartment I was living in.

14 Q. Were you able to hear the tank or tanks or the APC when they

15 started their engines from within the apartment?

16 A. Yes. You could hear it very well, and we always had to open the

17 windows because of that, because unless they were, the glass would be

18 shattered by the explosion.

19 Q. Again, imagining that you were in the apartment, looking towards

20 the city, was the position from which they fired in front of you or behind

21 you or to the left or to the right, approximately?

22 A. It was in front and slightly to the left. In front and slightly

23 towards the left. But I should like to stress that the tank moved about.

24 It moves when it fires, which means that sometimes it was in front,

25 sometimes it was behind, sometimes it was right up front, and sometimes it

Page 1941

1 was more towards the left.

2 Q. Was that as you faced towards the city from within the apartment

3 or in a different direction that was in front sometimes? Perhaps I'll

4 rephrase the question. If you look at the map and imagine that you are

5 facing north and that the top of the map is north, then if you imagine

6 being in the apartment, did the tank and APC fire from a position south of

7 you or east or west or north, that is, north of the apartment?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an

10 objection to make. We don't know if the map, which is only a partial

11 section, has a north somewhere. Where exactly is north? And this would

12 be leading the witness with respect to this question. I see no trace of

13 north anywhere on the map. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is sustained, although there

15 might not be much confusion, having looked at other maps already used

16 which are covering similar areas.

17 Mr. Ierace, would you please rephrase your question.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

19 Q. If you imagine being in your parents' apartment and looking

20 towards the city, what direction were you looking, having regard to the

21 points of the compass?

22 A. When I was at the window, I would be looking southwards. When I

23 looked straight ahead of me, that would be south. West was to the right

24 of me, and so on.

25 Q. All right. And when you looked south from the apartment, what

Page 1942

1 could you see?

2 A. I could see, as I said a moment ago, a tank or an APC at the

3 Transit, firing from that point.

4 Q. And if you turned around and looked north out of the apartment,

5 assuming there was a window there, what would you see, generally, in a

6 northwards direction from the apartment?

7 A. Northwards I would see the city, part of the city, which was being

8 fired at.

9 Q. Now --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we are already one or two minutes over

11 1.00. If there's a suitable moment to stop your examination.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this would probably be as suitable as

13 any other. I have a number of questions still to go on this area.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

15 May I then bring a few issues to the attention of the parties.

16 First, the Chamber would like to be informed about the problems about the

17 witness pseudonym list. The second issue is that this Chamber has a bit

18 more flexibility on the scheduling as we could -- as we would know before,

19 and we would like to know whether the parties have any objections

20 against -- Madam Registrar asks my attention. One moment, please.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Whether there are any serious objections against

23 starting again at 9.00 in the morning and have the long morning sessions.

24 It has been stressed by many people working in this courtroom that if we

25 continue during the morning, that we have not a day split up in various

Page 1943












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1944

1 portions, but we'll sit in the morning and we'll have time available to

2 prepare for the next day. So what we'll do is we'll start at 9.00 in the

3 morning. But, of course, since it has been otherwise scheduled, if there

4 are any serious objections, I'd like to hear them now, although my

5 flexibility is limited.

6 I have one specific question to Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I noticed that

7 he arrives Monday in the morning, so if he would oppose against having the

8 same schedule on Monday, we could perhaps use Monday for different

9 portions, starting at 9.30 and then go on until 1.00, and then start again

10 at 2.30 up until 4.00. I had this in mind because I imagined that you

11 might have some difficulties in being here on time if we started at 9.00

12 in the morning, but please inform us if it's otherwise.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

14 asking. On Monday is my travelling day, so I would be very appreciative

15 if we could begin on Mondays at 9.30. But I leave it up to you. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We see that there might be considerable problems for

18 you, and so therefore you have a new Scheduling Order, but at least this

19 week we'll start, then, the coming days, the coming four days, at 9.00 in

20 the morning and continue until a quarter to 2.00, even perhaps to 2.00.

21 So then we can adjourn now until 2.30.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.




Page 1945

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm happy to report that I met with

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin and Ms. Pilipovic during the break, and I have provided

5 them with copies of the motion by the Prosecution dated the 30th of

6 October, 2001 seeking protective measures together with the annexure which

7 sets out the details. It seems that the copy which they had was provided

8 by a different part of the Tribunal to the OTP. It appears to be a

9 translation into French of an annexure, and that appears to be the source

10 of the confusion. So that seems to be -- we're now working off the same

11 sheet of paper.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's marvellous, Mr. Ierace. So we're

13 informed, still the schedule attached to the motion is guiding us for the

14 future?

15 MR. IERACE: That is guiding us, Mr. President. If there are any

16 additions to that, I will inform my friends this afternoon. We have

17 spoken as to a meeting this afternoon after court where we will discuss

18 also exhibits for the remainder of the week.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Thank you.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we did, indeed,

22 have some problems, but we had a meeting with the Prosecution and

23 discussed them. The documents that we have now and that we base

24 ourselves, being one of the languages of the Tribunal, is what we base

25 ourselves on. So we thought that we were revisiting, if I could put it

Page 1946

1 that way, the list of the Prosecutor.

2 Now, I would like to be sure, and could Mr. Ierace confirm that

3 for us, that there have not been any further changes because we see that

4 certain names were deleted in the most recent list that we have received

5 which are not to be found in the old list. So the people mentioned in

6 this latest list might reappear. Anyway, perhaps Mr. Ierace could clarify

7 the situation. I'm referring to Witness K, in particular, who is on the

8 list of the 13th of December, 2001, and that is not the same Witness K who

9 was on the list that we're going to work -- that was the old list dated

10 the 30th of October, 2001.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please sort this out during one of your

12 meetings and inform the Court about your findings. I think that's -- so

13 let's not spend any time on it now, but it's good to know that still some

14 work has to be done.

15 Apart from that, I inform the parties that tomorrow for reasons --

16 for personal reasons, Mr. Galic, we'll finish tomorrow at 1.00 and not a

17 quarter to 2.00, and we start at 9.00. Then I think we dealt with all the

18 practical issues.

19 Yes, Mr. Ierace, you've got another one?

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, just one further one, Mr. President. The

21 Defence has now filed a response to the motion by the Prosecution seeking

22 leave to call witnesses via videolink.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've seen that.

24 MR. IERACE: I would be grateful if at some stage this week, if it

25 please the Trial Chamber, that issue could be dealt with.

Page 1947

1 JUDGE ORIE: I received it this morning. Of course, we will have

2 to confer among the colleagues on how to proceed, whether there will be

3 oral hearing or not. But at least we received the response of the

4 Defence, and you'll hear from us this week.

5 Those were all the practical matters. Then please, Mr. Ierace,

6 proceed in the examination-in-chief of Witness D.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the witness again be

8 shown the photographs, which are Exhibit P3251 through to P3255. I would

9 ask that Ms. Harris be permitted to approach the usher and place some

10 yellow stickers over the witness's name wherever it appears in the

11 photographs.

12 Q. Sir, before the lunch break, you told us in summary that when you

13 were in your parents' apartment and looked south, it was possible for you

14 on occasions to see the tank or APC in position, that is, ready for

15 firing. From the same apartment, if you were able to look north, you

16 would see the city of Sarajevo, and facing in that direction it was to

17 your left and straight ahead, that is, north of the apartment, where the

18 vehicles were parked. Would you please now look at Annexure C. That is a

19 photograph which appears to show some apartment buildings. Do you have

20 that in front of you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is this also a photograph that was taken in your presence in about

23 June of the year 2001?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Was the photograph taken by investigator Jonathan Tait-Harris?

Page 1948

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Did that follow upon some directions from you?

3 A. Yes, it did.

4 Q. Have you placed a blue oval-shaped circle on the photograph?

5 A. Yes, I have.

6 Q. At the time that the photograph was taken, was the photographer

7 standing on a road or off a road or near anything else?

8 A. By the road, on the raised area.

9 Q. What was the name of the road?

10 A. The Transit, or bypass.

11 Q. Approximately in what direction was the camera facing at the time

12 the photograph was taken?

13 A. North.

14 Q. What does the blue circle indicate?

15 A. The circle indicates the windows of the building I lived in.

16 Q. Given that the photograph was taken in June, it follows that it

17 was taken at the height of summer; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

19 Q. Were the trees -- I withdraw that. Were the trees that produced

20 the foliage in the photograph deciduous? In other words, were they trees

21 that lost their leaves in winter?

22 A. Yes, they were.

23 Q. In 1992 and 1993, were there trees in the same position as those

24 which appear in the photograph in the area of the blue circle?

25 A. No, there weren't.

Page 1949

1 Q. From the apartment, what was the degree of view, if any, that you

2 had of the road in the area where the photographer was standing when this

3 photograph was taken? I should add, in 1992 and 1993.

4 A. The view was much better, because the trees that we can see in the

5 photograph now were not as tall, and the house on the left and right were

6 built on subsequently; they were added. That is to say, another floor or

7 two were raised. They weren't as high, so the view was much broader and

8 better than it was when this particular photograph was taken.

9 Q. You've told us that -- I notice that Mr. Piletta-Zanin is on his

10 feet.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think I heard the

13 witness indicate a moment ago, before the question was asked of him, that

14 he had already been in that house, or rather, that apartment. So the

15 question which began, "From the apartment," the words "from the

16 apartment," seems to be to be premature, if I can put it that way, the

17 cart before the horse, so to speak.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: I'll clarify that, Mr. President.

20 Q. You have identified an apartment as the significance of the blue

21 circle. Whose apartment was that in 1992 and 1993?

22 A. (redacted)

23 Q. This morning you said that at one stage [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1950

1 [redacted]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, before we continue, the question just put

3 to the witness upon the objection of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, don't you think it

4 should be redacted, in view of the protective measures?

5 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this part will be redacted because it's -- it

7 might not make the protective measures as effective as they should be.

8 Please proceed -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Honour.

10 The Defence agrees entirely.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So you may proceed, Mr. Ierace, and we'll prepare the

12 redaction.


14 Q. So you've told us that when you looked south from the apartment,

15 you could see on occasion a tank or an APC. Where did you make such a

16 sighting in relation to where the photographer was standing at the time

17 this photograph was taken?

18 A. I saw that from the window of the apartment, which is in the oval

19 circle.

20 Q. On those occasions, on any of those occasions, was there a tank or

21 APC in the position of the photographer at the time this photograph was

22 taken?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I would like the

25 witness to view a portion of videotape which is presently marked as

Page 1951

1 MFI-8. The audio-visual unit has it. I understand it has been keyed to

2 the relevant position. I can indicate that that position -- I can

3 indicate firstly that it is a portion of the videotape that was shown

4 during the opening, which is titled "SRK Tank Fire." I ask that that

5 video be shown. It takes approximately 15 seconds, I think,

6 Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The video may be played.


9 Q. Sir, please watch the video which appears on the screen in front

10 of you. It may be that the machine has to be adjusted.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. IERACE: Might the playing stop there. I would ask it be

13 rewound and played again. And at an appropriate point, I will ask that

14 the image be frozen; in other words, that the pause button be pushed.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. IERACE: Pause there, please.

17 Q. Sir, do you recognise the area which appears in the image on your

18 screen at the moment?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the purposes of the transcript,

21 I'll describe the image as comprising various buildings including a block

22 of apartments of at least five storeys. In the centre of the image is

23 what appears to be an overpass or a bridge on top of which is a tank which

24 has apparently made a discharge. There appears to be a large ball of

25 flame protruding from the end of the barrel. The tank faces to the left

Page 1952

1 of the screen.

2 Q. Sir, where is that?

3 A. That is on the bypass, the Transit. It's the same street, the one

4 we mentioned a moment ago, the one that you could see from the window of

5 the apartment.

6 Q. Do you mean by that the street upon which the tank is positioned

7 on the image?

8 A. Yes, that's the street I mean. It's the same one.

9 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence about the slope, it would

10 follow that the camera appears to be north of the position facing

11 approximately south. Would that appear to be the case to you?

12 A. Yes, it was taken. That is to say, the position from which this

13 was taken, the tank would be on the south side. If you looked at it from

14 the angle of photography, the person taking the photograph would be

15 northwards, and the tank would be southwards facing.

16 Q. Having regard to the colour of the foliage, in particular the tree

17 foliage, are you able to estimate the season this was taken?

18 A. I think it was autumn, early autumn.

19 Q. As one looks at the image, where was the apartment we referred to

20 earlier? In other words, does it appear in the image firstly?

21 A. No, you can't see the apartment on this photograph.

22 Q. As one looks at the image, was the apartment to the left or the

23 right or above or below?

24 A. To the right.

25 Q. Is there anything about the image of the tank firing on the

Page 1953












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1954

1 Transit Road which appears in front of you which is inconsistent with what

2 you observed from time to time in the same area?

3 A. No major difference. But from the window of [redacted], you

4 can't see this particular position.

5 MR. IERACE: I ask that the showing of the video continue for

6 another few seconds. I will again indicate when to pause the machine.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. IERACE: Pause, please.

9 Q. Sir, did you notice just before the pause, there was what appeared

10 to be some smoke issuing from the top of the tank, perhaps consistent with

11 the firing of a smaller weapon?

12 A. Could you repeat that question, please. I apologise, but I didn't

13 quite follow.

14 Q. Yes. Perhaps whilst I repeat the question, the tape could be

15 rewound slightly to approximately the point of the last pause and prepared

16 for reshowing.

17 Would you please watch the video, and in particular take note of

18 the part of the tank which houses the barrel and look for any signs of

19 what appears to be smoke. Thank you.

20 MR. IERACE: Video could be played again.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. IERACE: And pause again, please.

23 Q. Did you make that observation?

24 A. Yes. You can see the smoke and the fire coming out of the barrel.

25 Q. Did you notice some other smoke coming from the same part of the

Page 1955

1 tank, perhaps consistent with fire of a smaller-calibre weapon?

2 A. I assume that that was the smoke issuing from the explosion.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection. On

5 the one hand, we keep repeating the video footage to facilitate the

6 position of the witness, but I don't see how we can ask a question as to

7 the calibre of a weapon that we see on a video clip.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the question is leading to the extent

9 that apart from firing of the tank, that also the attention is drawn to

10 another weapon, and to that extent leads the witness into some kind of an

11 answer. So the objection is sustained.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Having regard to the last

13 answer, I won't pursue it.

14 Returning to the video, if we could, would you please continue to

15 play the video - this is directed to the audio-visual unit - until I again

16 say "Pause."

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. IERACE: Pause.

19 Q. Do you recognise that part which now appears in the image in front

20 of you, that is, the buildings and so on, as to the area?

21 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

22 Q. Where is that?

23 A. That's that part, the bypass, the Transit road, and the part the

24 tank is on now, you can see that from the window that I mentioned a moment

25 ago, the window of the flat.

Page 1956

1 Q. On the video, the vehicle appears to be travelling from the left

2 to the right. In relation to the observations you made, having discharged

3 its weapons, what did the tank or tanks or APC then do?

4 A. After opening fire, it would always move either forward or back,

5 to the next firing, and then the whole process would be repeated again.

6 Q. Having completed firing, what then would the vehicles do?

7 A. As I've just said, they would either continue to fire or the tank

8 would go back down the Transit and down Vrace to the place the tanks were

9 parked.

10 Q. Having regard to the image in front of you, in which direction

11 would they proceed when they returned down to the parking area?

12 A. They would move right. Looking at the image from this aspect,

13 they would move right and then downhill, and go as far as Radnicka Street.

14 Q. Is there anything inconsistent with the video before you and your

15 recollection of how the tank or APC would retreat to the parking area?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due

18 respect to the Chamber, I think we ought to specify what period we're

19 talking about, because I don't remember having seen a date at all in the

20 transcript. I'm referring to this tank movement.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be more precise perhaps, Mr. Ierace,

22 although when I still think of the question, inconsistency of what the

23 witness saw might be at a different moment, but please see whether you can

24 meet the objection or not.

25 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President. I did mention the period

Page 1957

1 of time at the beginning of this line of questioning, but I'll certainly

2 repeat it. Indeed, I'll do it in a non-leading fashion.

3 Q. What is the period of time - that is, between what dates

4 approximately - did you observe a tank or an APC fire from the vicinity of

5 the Transit road?

6 A. From the period when I entered the army until the time at which I

7 departed, I often saw either a tank or an APC at that position.

8 Q. I think you said earlier that you entered the army on the 22nd of

9 June, 1992 and you departed around, I think it was, the 10th or at least

10 mid-May of 1993. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that you also saw APCs fire from

13 the same vicinity. What type of weaponry did you observe an APC to fire

14 from that area?

15 A. Are you referring to APCs alone or to tanks as well?

16 Q. APCs alone.

17 A. They had long barrels at the front. I don't know exactly what the

18 calibre was. And on the dome, on the turret which is on the APC, they had

19 another machine-gun of a slightly smaller calibre.

20 Q. In what circumstances have you seen an APC in the vicinity of the

21 Transit road fire its weaponry in relation to the hatch? In other words,

22 have you seen the weaponry fired with the hatch opened or closed or

23 sometimes either?

24 A. The hatch was closed.

25 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the accuracy of which firing -- I

Page 1958

1 withdraw that. Do you have any knowledge as to whether, with the hatch

2 closed, the operators of the weaponry of an APC are able to hit their

3 target with any accuracy? In other words, is there any impediment to

4 their vision of the target area?

5 A. I don't think so.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the accuracy of the guns which are

7 placed on an APC, that is, which are part of their armoury?

8 A. I think they are very precise guns.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness again be shown

10 Exhibit P3638, that is the excerpts from the small arms manual. In fact,

11 it's probably preferable that the witness is shown the copy I have because

12 it's the one with the coverings.

13 Q. Sir, would you please turn to the page which has the numbers in

14 the top right-hand corner 02081348.

15 MR. IERACE: Could that be placed on the overhead viewer.

16 Q. I notice that the image has a tick alongside it. Did you place

17 that tick there?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Beneath it there appear to be some words written in B/C/S. Do you

20 know who wrote those words?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 Q. Sorry. Could you repeat your answer, please.

23 A. Yes, I wrote that.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the overhead viewer could pan

25 back so we could see all those handwritten words. All right.

Page 1959


2 MR. IERACE: I thank the usher.

3 Q. Could you read out those words that you wrote, please.

4 A. Says -- it mentions the calibre of this machine-gun. It's 7.92.

5 And then it says it was also available, so that means that this weapon was

6 also available. And we popularly called it the "seller of death."

7 Q. Did you ever see that weapon fitted with a telescopic sight, that

8 is, when in the position of fellow members of your platoon or the sniping

9 unit, members of the sniping unit?

10 A. Yes, I saw it with a sight.

11 Q. In whose possession was it when you saw it with a sight?

12 A. I didn't see it in the possession of soldiers who were from my

13 platoon. I saw other soldiers who didn't belong to my platoon with this

14 sight.

15 Q. Where were they when you saw it?

16 A. I had the opportunity of seeing them at positions in Ozrenska

17 Street. I also saw them on several occasions in Grbavica. I saw several

18 soldiers who had this.

19 Q. You gave evidence this morning that while stationed at Ozrenska

20 Street, you observed sniper-unit members with a rifle that you described

21 as having a long barrel. Do you see that rifle anywhere in the pages of

22 the manual before you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you please indicate what page it appears on, referring to

25 the numbers in the top right-hand corner of the relevant page?

Page 1960

1 A. It's page 1344, page 1348.

2 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the relevant page be placed on the

3 overhead viewer.

4 Q. I think you said there were two pages, 1344 and 1348. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. That's right.

7 MR. IERACE: First we could place page 1344. I think the full

8 name is 02081344. Place that page on the overhead viewer. All right.

9 Q. And which of the two weapons is it, that is, the two weapons which

10 appear on that page?

11 A. You can see a sniper weapon on this page.

12 Q. I think there is one weapon -- the two weapons are placed on top

13 of each other, one on top of the other. Is it the one towards the top or

14 the one towards the bottom?

15 A. It is the one on top.

16 Q. All right. And I think that that is described in the text as

17 being an M-76. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the usher now place page 02081348 on

20 the overhead viewer.

21 And perhaps it could be moved down the page. Thank you.

22 Q. And that weapon, according to the text on the manual, is described

23 as M-84. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, this weapon is called an M-84 machine-gun.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 1961

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the counsel has an

2 objection to the examination of this witness with regard to weapons. The

3 objection relates -- is because my honoured colleague should ask the

4 witness to first provide a description of the weapon and ask him whether

5 he knows what it looks like, in any case, and then specify that this

6 weapon is in question, and not to first show him a picture of this

7 weapon. We don't know whether the witness knows what an M-84 is and what

8 it looks like. He should first tell us what an M-84 is; he should

9 describe it; and then indicate it on the picture.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the issue is not whether it's known as

12 an M-76 or an M-84, but rather whether the witness in around June 2001

13 made an identification of particular pieces of weaponry from a manual that

14 he was shown. Nothing hangs on the name or the numbers or the letters by

15 which in some circles the weapon was identified.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.


18 Q. Sir, you have now indicated two rifles. And earlier you described

19 seeing one particular rifle with a long barrel. In indicating the two

20 rifles, what is it that you mean to suggest? In other words, you saw both

21 or you saw one, or it was something like that, or what?

22 A. I saw both. I had the opportunity of seeing both of them.

23 Q. Now, you've also told us that you saw groups of mortars. Did you

24 ever observe mortars being fired from your side of the confrontation

25 lines?

Page 1962

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Was there any occasion when you saw mortars being fired from a

3 position in the area of the Transit Road?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. I don't know when this was exactly. During that period, from June

7 1992 until May 1993, that's the period that is concerned.

8 Q. Are you able to be any more specific as to when it was during that

9 period you made that observation? I'll withdraw that question. I'll ask

10 you a different question first.

11 On how many occasions did you see mortars being fired from the

12 vicinity of the Transit Road?

13 A. I saw this very frequently.

14 Q. Approximately when was the last occasion you saw that happening?

15 A. I can say that this was just before my departure.

16 Q. Within days, weeks, or months?

17 A. It was a matter of a few days.

18 Q. Whereabouts did you see the mortars being fired? That is, where

19 were they when they were being fired?

20 A. There were mortars at various locations, in various positions.

21 Q. Was there ever an occasion when you noticed anything unusual about

22 the crew firing mortars, that is, in the period whilst you were a member

23 of the platoon?

24 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of seeing -- at one position I saw a

25 crew which was often very drunk.

Page 1963












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1964

1 Q. Were they firing mortars at the time that you observed them to be

2 drunk, or not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On how many occasions did you see that happen?

5 A. Several times.

6 Q. Approximately when was the last time that you saw that happen?

7 A. Are you referring to these men whom I saw under the influence of

8 alcohol? Are you asking me when I saw them for the last time in such an

9 alcoholised state?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I think that was in October or November 1992.

12 Q. Where was the position they were firing from at that time?

13 A. They were in the vicinity of a bridge on the Transit Road.

14 Q. You've told us that in about June of 2001 you were on the Transit

15 Road with investigator Jonathan Tait-Harris. At that time, did you say

16 anything to him in relation to this incident?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Did you then observe him to take a photograph?

19 A. Yes, I did. I saw him. I had previously shown him a location

20 where the mortars were positioned, and he took a photograph of this

21 location.

22 Q. At a later time did you place a mark on the photograph?

23 A. Yes. I marked the location where the mortars were. I marked this

24 location on the photograph.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness again be shown

Page 1965

1 the photographs which commence at P3251, in particular, Annexure B.

2 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid any misunderstanding, I see the

3 number Exhibit P3252 on Annexure B. That's --

4 MR. IERACE: That's the one, Mr. President, and I notice that the

5 signature has been covered. Therefore, I ask that it be placed on the

6 overhead projector, Annexure B.

7 Q. Do you recognise the photograph before you?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. And could you tell the Tribunal what it is?

10 A. On this photograph the place where the mortars were located has

11 been marked with a pen.

12 Q. Who made that mark?

13 A. I made the circle.

14 Q. What does the circle depict?

15 A. As I said, it depicts the location where the mortars had been

16 positioned.

17 Q. Where were you at the time that you made your observation? That

18 is, when you observed the mortars being fired, where were you?

19 A. I was on the road which is to the left of the photograph.

20 Q. Do you mean to the left of the photograph as you look at the

21 photograph?

22 A. No. To the right side of the photograph. You can see the road to

23 the right side, on the right side of the photograph. That is where I was

24 when I saw the mortars being fired.

25 Q. You told us you were present when the photograph was taken.

Page 1966

1 Whereabouts was the photographer positioned, approximately, at the time

2 that this photograph was taken?

3 A. The photographer was on the left side of the bridge, if you

4 look -- if you are facing the south.

5 Q. What was the photographer standing on at the time the photograph

6 was taken? In other words, on the dirt, on a footpath, on a box, or what?

7 A. On the bridge. He was on the bridge.

8 Q. What is the road on the bridge, that is, the name of the road?

9 A. It's Transit, the Transit Road.

10 Q. As we look at the photograph, there appears to be a road curving

11 towards the camera and to the right, as one looks at the photograph. Can

12 you explain the relationship between that road and the Transit Road? I

13 think you mentioned a bridge.

14 A. The road that you can see on the right of the photograph is below

15 the bridge. It goes beneath the bridge, beneath the Transit, the bypass

16 road. The photograph was taken from the bridge, and the street that you

17 can see on the right goes under the bridge.

18 Q. Where was the bridge in relation to where you had seen on

19 different occasions a tank or an APC discharging its weaponry?

20 A. On the right.

21 Q. How far away, approximately?

22 A. More than a hundred metres. About a hundred metres.

23 Q. Now, you say that on this occasion in 1992, that is, the last such

24 occasion where you made your observations, you concluded that the mortar

25 crew were under the influence of alcohol. Could you tell us what it was

Page 1967

1 that you saw that led you to that conclusion, or heard?

2 A. I could come to this conclusion on the basis of conversations, the

3 way they looked. There were a few bottles scattered around them. It was

4 very clear that they were drunk. This was very clear from their

5 conversation.

6 Q. Do you mean conversation between whom?

7 A. When they spoke to each other, it was obvious that they were

8 drunk, and they were quite jolly.

9 Q. What was it about their conversation that led you to that

10 conclusion?

11 A. Their way of speaking. Anyone can notice this. When someone is

12 drunk, they have slurred speech; they speak in a different manner.

13 Q. You've told us that there were a number of occasions on which you

14 had seen mortar crews operating the mortars, apparently affected by

15 alcohol. On how many -- I withdraw that. Were there any other occasions

16 that you saw such things in this position, apart from the one you've told

17 us about?

18 A. Could you please repeat the question? I'm sorry.

19 Q. Did you see a mortar crew apparently under the influence of

20 alcohol operating mortars on other occasions in this position, from this

21 position?

22 A. No, I didn't. I saw these men on several occasions. I saw them

23 being in a drunken state on several occasions and I saw them using

24 mortars. They were firing from mortars. But I didn't see this at any

25 other.

Page 1968

1 Q. On how many different occasions did you see it happen at this

2 position?

3 A. Several times. On five or six occasions.

4 Q. On this last occasion, how many rounds did you observe to be

5 discharged from the mortar tubes?

6 A. I couldn't tell you exactly how many there were, but there were

7 quite a few at any rate. At this point, I'm unable to remember how many

8 shells were actually fired. But I'm sure that there were many.

9 Q. Do you recollect the size of the mortar tubes?

10 A. No, I don't recollect the exact size, but I know that they were

11 not of a small calibre, judging from the barrels from which the shells

12 were fired. It must have been either an 80 or 120 millimetre calibre.

13 I'm saying this because I was in a position to see mortars of smaller

14 calibre which I believed to be 60 millimetre calibre mortars. These were

15 much larger barrels.

16 Q. Did you make any observations as to the degree of care with which

17 they operated the mortars, that is, the mortar tubes?

18 A. Well, as careful as a drunk man can be and handle a weapon like

19 that in such a state.

20 Q. Having regard to your observations at the time, do you have any

21 opinion as to whether they were capable of firing the mortars with any

22 degree of accuracy given their physical and mental condition?

23 A. I'm sure that they were not capable enough for any precise

24 targeting with this kind of weapon because they were in an inebriated

25 state.

Page 1969

1 Q. Did you observe -- withdraw that. How many tubes were they

2 operating at that time?

3 A. There were three mortars there.

4 Q. How many of the three were operating?

5 A. All three of them were operating.

6 Q. Were you able to see what direction each of the tubes was pointing

7 towards?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. What direction was that?

10 A. In the direction of the town, facing north.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, looking at the clock, I see that your

12 indication that you might need one hour more than indicated, it's already

13 more than one hour. And I don't know whether you could give any

14 indication as to how much time you'd still need. And perhaps I may also

15 draw your attention that according to the transcript, it took you

16 approximately five minutes to get to the answer that the -- those who were

17 drunk were approximately a hundred metres from the place where the APC and

18 the tank were. Whether that really needed five minutes is a question

19 still to be answered. But could you please give us an indication on how

20 much time you still need.

21 MR. IERACE: 10 minutes, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.


24 Q. Did you have any particular feelings as you made your observations

25 on this occasion?

Page 1970

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. What were they?

3 A. I felt terribly sorry that shells were being fired in such an

4 unselective -- nonselective manner because I knew that they were killing

5 people and damaging property.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the English

8 transcript, we are talking about a singular, and Mr. Ierace spoke on

9 several -- spoke of several occasions of these mortars. I don't know if

10 we are talking about singular or plural. Maybe my learned friend could

11 clarify that for us, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think if he used the plural, we have to assume that

13 he intended to. But if it's otherwise, Mr. Ierace, you'll please tell

14 us. And if not, please proceed.


16 Q. Finally, sir, you have given evidence as to the existence of a

17 sniper unit and conversations that you had with members of the sniping

18 unit. Do you recall the names of any members of the sniping unit, in

19 particular individuals who were members of the unit after September of

20 1992? Perhaps you might start with, if you know it, the name of their

21 commander.

22 A. Yes, his name was Marinko Krneta.

23 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the members during that period?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Please tell us the names.

Page 1971

1 A. Miljenko Mitric, Dragan Zobenica, Nada, Predrag Boskovic, Zeljko

2 Zelovic, Dragan Atanaskovic, Zlatko Subotic. At this point, I don't

3 remember any other.

4 Q. All right. And one further question: Would you please turn to --

5 withdraw that.

6 Are you aware as to whether any military police operated in the

7 area of Grbavica whilst you were a member of the platoon?

8 A. Yes, there was military police.

9 Q. Are you aware as to whether there were any civilian police

10 operating in that area during that same time period?

11 A. Yes, there was also the civilian police.

12 Q. During the course of making your statement in 1997, were you asked

13 questions as to whether each of those police services had headquarters in

14 the Grbavica area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did they have headquarters, that is, each of them, in the Grbavica

17 area?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. Did you mark those positions on a map in 1997?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown Map 4, that

22 is the copy which has the signature obscured.

23 Q. Sir, did you mark -- withdraw that. Do you see in blue ink on the

24 map the numbers 1 and 2? Alongside each number, I think there is a

25 cross. Do you see those?

Page 1972

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you place those marks on that map?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. What do those marks depict?

5 A. Number 1 -- number 2, I'm sorry, depicts the location where the

6 civilian police was and number 1 where the military police was.

7 Q. Is that still your recollection as to the positions?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are there any markings on any of the maps that I have asked you

10 about during your evidence today which are not consistent with your

11 recollection as it stands today?

12 A. I think I have the same one in mind.

13 Q. In relation to the other maps that you've been shown today as

14 well, Maps 1, 3, and 5, are there any markings on those maps that were

15 made by you in 1997 which are no longer consistent with your recollection?

16 A. I think that on one of the maps these headquarters were depicted,

17 but I'm not sure. I don't remember.

18 Q. Perhaps you're misunderstanding the question. Would you please go

19 to Map 5. Do you recollect that I asked you about the markings on this

20 map earlier today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are the positions of the various weaponry indicated on this map

23 according to your recollection today as well as in 1997?

24 A. I'm sorry, but I really don't understand you.

25 Q. I'm simply asking whether the positions on the map in front of you

Page 1973












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1974

1 of the tanks, mortars, Howitzers, and so on, accord with your recollection

2 today of where they were whilst you were a member of the platoon.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness. We

4 assume it was a "yes."


6 Q. Would you please repeat that answer.

7 A. Yes. I said yes.

8 MR. IERACE: All right. Mr. President, that completes the

9 examination-in-chief. You will note that there are some photographs and

10 one map that I have not taken the witness to. In the interests of saving

11 time, I don't propose to rely upon them. I have the original booklet

12 available for inspection by the -- by you, Mr. President, and Your

13 Honours, as well as by the Defence, should you wish to see it. I propose

14 to tender the photocopy of the booklet rather than the original. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't it be easier just to tender into evidence

17 not booklets I have not seen yet but just the photographs shown to the

18 witness, especially since -- then we can also take out those photographs

19 that have not been used. As far as I can see, that's P3254A and the same

20 number B, and P3255, while 51, 52, and 53 have been shown to the witness.

21 MR. IERACE: That's so, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll finally decide on the admission into

23 evidence at the end of the cross-examination.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, you'll do the cross-examination or

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

Page 1975

1 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is actually

3 Ms. Pilipovic who will be doing the cross-examination of the witness, but

4 in view of the difficulties that we had with double translations this

5 time, I should like to be allowed to ask five or six questions, at the

6 maximum, once my colleague has completed her cross-examination, and thank

7 you in advance.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, Ms. Pilipovic, you're first, and we'll see

9 at the end of your cross-examination what's still left.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

12 Q. Witness D, good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Sir, would you please tell me whether you have at any point in

15 time given a statement to the investigators of the OTP?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. When?

18 A. In February 1997 and in June 2001. Sorry. In February 1997 and

19 in -- I think it was in wintertime, in the winter of 2001, either in

20 January or December 19 -- I'm not sure.

21 Q. Do you remember when it was that you gave your last statement?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I remind you to put off your

23 microphone when the witness is answering your questions, in order to fully

24 respect the protective measures.

25 A. The last time I gave the statement was in the summer of 2001.

Page 1976

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you remember the venue?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Where was it?

5 A. In Sarajevo. And then I made some amendments here.

6 Q. You said you made some amendments?

7 A. Yes. I did it here in The Hague.

8 Q. Could you explain to us the reasons why you were invited to come

9 here?

10 A. Because there was not enough time to finish everything in

11 Sarajevo.

12 Q. Where did you do your military service?

13 A. In Bihac.

14 Q. Once you completed your military service, did you ever go to any

15 military training subsequently?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Witness D, you told us that you had given a statement to the OTP

18 investigator on the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd of February, 1997.

19 A. I said I had given my statement in February 1997. I was not

20 specific as to the dates.

21 Q. In response to a question put to you by my learned colleague, you

22 said that you had been called up to join the reserve police force.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When was that?

25 A. It was the autumn before the war, so it must have been the autumn

Page 1977

1 of 1991.

2 Q. Why were you called?

3 A. I was called to the reserve police force. They requested

4 specifically that I should come because they needed me for the purposes of

5 adequate ethnic composition of the force.

6 Q. What was your obligation in respect of that? Were you duty-bound

7 to report and become a member of the reserve police force? What was your

8 obligation in that respect?

9 A. Our obligation was to patrol around the area that we were in

10 charge of, to see to it that there were no incidents of any kind, and to

11 avoid presence of armed individuals in the area, to prevent presence of

12 armed individuals in the area, and to report any such incident to the

13 police, because at the headquarters which were in charge of us, there was

14 a professional police officer serving there.

15 Q. Where was the headquarters?

16 A. In Beogradska Street.

17 Q. Could you be more specific, sir? Where exactly is Beogradska

18 Street located? In which part of the town?

19 A. It is part of the neighbourhood called Grbavica 1, the area of

20 Kovacici, that is.

21 Q. At that time --

22 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the question of the counsel.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Were you issued any equipment on that occasion?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 1978

1 Q. What was it?

2 A. An automatic rifle, 7.62 calibre.

3 Q. How long did you remain in that reserve force?

4 A. For a couple of weeks.

5 Q. What did you do after that? Did you leave the force? What

6 happened?

7 A. I managed to leave the force, but it was on my personal

8 insistence.

9 Q. Were you under any obligation to return the equipment that you had

10 been given?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. So you returned your automatic rifle when you left?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. In your statement -- on page 2 of your statement --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And Your Honour, I am referring to

16 Document 000969513, paragraph 2.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. But could you please quote so that the

18 Prosecution can follow what you are confronting the witness with, and so

19 that we also can know what is in there.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 3 of the

21 statement, paragraph 2.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The document -- the English

25 version is 00472767. That is, the statement which the witness gave to the

Page 1979

1 investigators of the Tribunal in February.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Has the translation been provided? Yes, okay.

3 Please proceed.

4 Mr. Ierace, you found it or?

5 MR. IERACE: I have, Mr. President. It was after the date of the

6 statement. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. You state, I quote: "The tensions grew until around March the 2nd

10 when the first barricades were set up. At the moment when it was

11 happening, it was not clear who set up the barricades. It was not clear

12 who set up the barricades. The town was blocked by men wearing black

13 masks on their faces. The barricades were everywhere in the town, so

14 people were not able to go to work that morning. Afterwards, it became

15 clear that the barricades were set up by the SDS, although the SDS

16 publicly distanced itself from this issue."

17 Sir, would you please tell us who set up the barricades on the 2nd

18 of March? Do you have any knowledge about that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object on the grounds of relevance.

22 I have deliberately not taken this witness to pages of history which my

23 friends have. We have heard much of the events leading up to the outbreak

24 of hostilities, and the question asked by my friend, in my respectful

25 submission, for two reasons is irrelevant: Firstly, because it doesn't

Page 1980

1 touch upon the evidence given by the witness during his

2 examination-in-chief; and secondly, because it's of no assistance to the

3 Trial Chamber in determining the issues before it. There has to be some

4 relevance to the history. I withdraw that. There has to be some

5 reference to the preconflict history. But in relation to this witness's

6 testimony, and in particular, events preceding the 6th of April, it's

7 simply not relevant. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please respond.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is the position of

10 the Defence that during the cross-examination, a witness can be examined

11 about the issues which were testified about both during the

12 examination-in-chief and also discussed in the statements given by the

13 witness to the investigators of the Tribunal, which constitute the

14 documents which were disclosed by the Prosecution to the Defence.

15 As for the objection itself raised by my learned colleague, with

16 respect to the relevance of these questions relating to the events of the

17 2nd of March, that is, 1992, the Defence believes that these questions are

18 quite important in view of the background of the conflict. They are not

19 only relevant, but they are necessary for the purposes of testing the

20 credibility of the witness as well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I for one would be grateful if my

23 friend could explain that relevance. In what way are the events of March

24 1992 relevant to the issues before this Court other than as general

25 background so as to set the scene? Thank you.

Page 1981

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please respond, Ms. Pilipovic.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to do that,

3 Your Honour. The events which took place on the 2nd of March are relevant

4 indeed because by checking these -- this information, it will be possible

5 to establish what the background of the conflict was, the conflict which

6 is interpreted by the Prosecutor in a different way; that is, that there

7 had been a prior plan.

8 And by asking this type of question in respect to this statement

9 of the witness, the Defence intends to secure answers as to what the

10 situation was, whether the allegations are true against General Galic as

11 they are contained in the indictment. I have read the statement, and the

12 witness finishes this passage by saying "Later, it became clear that the

13 barricades were set up by the SDS." I simply wish to ask the witness who

14 it was exactly who set up the barricades and why the conflict broke out in

15 Sarajevo so that we will be able to establish the reasons and the

16 background of the conflict on the basis of these questions.

17 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, as we discussed earlier, the area of

20 cross-examination, we can see clearly from Rule 90(H). Part (i) says that

21 "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject matter of the evidence

22 in chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness, and when

23 the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for the

24 cross-examining party to the subject matter of that case." That means

25 that "limited to the subject matter of the evidence in chief" means the

Page 1982

1 evidence given by the witness in this Court. That means that not as such

2 the previous statement given by the witness in its entirety and is a

3 subject -- is subject to cross-examination.

4 Then the second category is the credibility of the witness, of

5 course, credibility of his testimony given in this Court. And the third

6 is where the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for the

7 cross-examining party. That might be the case here, and that's what you

8 explained to us. But then, subsection (ii) says that "Counsel shall put

9 to the witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel

10 appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the witness."

11 So that means you have to indicate to this witness on issues

12 contradicting what your case will be, what your case is. And then you may

13 put questions to him.

14 I do not see that, but you assist me if I'm wrong, I do not see

15 that the questions you just put to the witness are referring to any part

16 of his testimony given in this court, but if I am mistaken, please assist

17 me. Yes, I see you're nodding.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question

19 concerning the 2nd of March was raised and linked to the answer provided

20 by Witness D in response to a question when the conflict started. The

21 witness said that the conflict started on the 6th of April, 1992. So my

22 question concerning the 2nd of March was a foundation for the following

23 question that I had in mind: If the tensions grew on the 2nd of March,

24 could that be considered as the main cause for the conflict which

25 subsequently broke out?

Page 1983

1 JUDGE ORIE: I would say that if it's not your case that the

2 conflict started at another date than the 6th of April, because you are

3 now diving into the history of the conflict, which has not been touched

4 upon by the examination-in-chief, but if the witness has contradicted in

5 one way or the other your case in this respect - and that's how I

6 understood it - that you say his testimony seems to be that the conflict

7 just started on the 6th of April, while there was a whole history, then

8 please tell him what your case is, and then ask him questions about it.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine that some of your questioning was

11 concerning your case, but we have another problem, I'm afraid. It's

12 already five minutes past 4.00. So this also will give you the

13 opportunity perhaps to better prepare. And please look carefully to Rule

14 90(H) again and again, because, as I indicated before, the Chamber will

15 more strictly apply Rule 90(H).

16 We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.08 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of January

19 2002, at 9.00 a.m.