Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1984

1 Tuesday, 22 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone in this courtroom.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, I think we ended yesterday in a brief discussion on

12 Rule 90(H). You may proceed, in strict observance of Rule 90(H), with

13 your cross-examination.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me start off by

15 thanking you for your guidance. I should like to stress - and I hope this

16 won't take more than two minutes of my time - that the Defence has been

17 before this Trial Chamber and in this Tribunal for quite some time. It

18 has always been ready for cross-examination, which always evolved in

19 harmony with the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Let me stress that the

20 Defence has been confronted with a serious problem, but in keeping with

21 guidance from the Chamber, it will adhere to 90(H)(ii), which gives the

22 Defence the right, if the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the

23 case, for the cross-examining party to ask questions to the subject matter

24 of that case, and in keeping with your suggestions and adhering to Rule

25 90(H)(ii), I shall continue my cross-examination. Thank you.

Page 1985


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Witness.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Yesterday during the cross-examination, we left off discussing the

7 fact that you were within the reserve formation of the police force. You

8 explained to us that you had returned your rifle and uniform which you

9 were issued with, and that took place in 1991. Yesterday, asked by my

10 learned colleague - and that was at 15 hours, 38 minutes, 11 seconds, and

11 also in lines 8 and 10 - you spoke about the fact that at Grbavica, the

12 civilian police force had set up its headquarters, as well as the military

13 police. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you now tell me when the headquarters of the civilian police

16 force was set up?

17 A. At the very beginning - I can't quite tell you the day - which

18 means in June 1992.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are having difficulties hearing

20 the witness. We apologise.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- is this a technical problem or is this a

22 matter of speaking more closely to the microphone?

23 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. D, would you please speak in the microphone so

25 that everyone can hear you well.

Page 1986

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you tell us where the headquarters of the civilian police was

3 located? Where was it?

4 A. The civilian police headquarters was in Zagrebacka Street and in

5 the former nursery school building.

6 Q. Is that the only headquarters that existed, or were there several

7 headquarters?

8 A. Do you mean the civilian police?

9 Q. Yes. We're talking about the civilian police force now.

10 A. There was just that one civilian police headquarters at Grbavica

11 1, which is where I was. As for the other parts of town, I really can't

12 say. I don't know.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. D, may I ask you to look at your screen and wait

14 until the text is not moving any more before answering, because the

15 translation needs some time, and since you are speaking the same language,

16 it goes too quick. So just look at the screen. Once it stops, then you

17 give the answer. Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You say that you know that there was one headquarters of the

21 civilian police force and that it was located in Zagrebacka Street; is

22 that right?

23 A. In the Grbavica region, there was just one headquarters of the

24 civilian police at Grbavica, and the main headquarters also existed in

25 Lukavica at the location where the Energoinvest company once was.

Page 1987

1 Q. Did you visit that headquarters?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When the headquarters were set up -- when was it set up?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. When did you visit the headquarters for the first time?

6 A. In the summer of 1992.

7 Q. Could you tell us what the role of the members of the Civil

8 Defence or civilian police was?

9 A. I don't know what their role was, but I do know that those

10 civilian policemen stood at two locations, were positioned in two

11 locations at that part of Grbavica where I was. One checkpoint was at the

12 intersection going on to Vrace, and the other checkpoint was at the

13 intersection above Vrace, the intersection of the road going to Trbevic

14 and Lukavac.

15 Q. So you would see members of the civilian police, would you?

16 A. Yes, I would. I saw them every day.

17 Q. Can you tell us what they were wearing?

18 A. They were wearing blue uniforms.

19 Q. Were they armed?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. What sort of weapons did they have?

22 A. They had an automatic rifle of the 762 type, and most of them had

23 pistols with them as well.

24 Q. You've already said that you saw them at the checkpoints. Do you

25 happen to know what their role was there? What were they doing there?

Page 1988

1 A. They had the right to stop vehicles at the checkpoint and to

2 control the passing of vehicles and to check out the documents.

3 Q. You said that you talked to them.

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did they tell you, while you were chatting to them, why they were

6 controlling those checkpoints?

7 A. No. I never asked them.

8 Q. Did you previously, and I'm talking about the time before the

9 headquarters of the civilian police was set up, whether the civilian

10 police had positions at those particular locations? Did you see them

11 ever?

12 A. Let me mention that until I had joined the army, I didn't leave my

13 house at all. I didn't walk around anywhere because it was dangerous. So

14 I don't know the answer to your question.

15 Q. You've just said that you never left the house because it was

16 dangerous. Could you tell us what, according to you, was the danger?

17 What did the danger consist of?

18 A. The very fact that I was of non-Serb ethnicity was a danger.

19 There was always the possibility of somebody either beating me up or

20 taking me off somewhere never to be heard of again.

21 Q. Did anybody mistreat you personally, physically, at any time?

22 A. No, never, thank goodness.

23 Q. Was there any other reason for which you stayed at home other than

24 the fact that you thought it was dangerous?

25 A. Well, the danger I've just talked about. I wasn't physically

Page 1989

1 abused, but I was under a great deal of psychological pressure because of

2 the existence of the types of danger that I mentioned a moment ago.

3 Q. You're a lawyer by profession, are you not?

4 A. Yes, I am.

5 Q. Were you working at the time? Were you employed?

6 A. What time do you mean?

7 Q. Ah, yes. I apologise. I'm talking about June 1992, when you said

8 you didn't dare go out of your house. So I'm asking you whether you were

9 working, whether you were employed in 1992.

10 A. I'm sorry. I thought you were aware of the fact that in 1992, at

11 Grbavica, nobody in Sarajevo, in that part of Sarajevo, went to work.

12 Q. But where were you employed? Where was your work post?

13 MR. IERACE: I object to that question firstly on the ground of

14 relevance, and secondly because the answer is likely to tend to identify

15 the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If I did hear Ms. Pilipovic well, she already

17 rephrased the question by saying, "Where was your work post?" Would that

18 be an acceptable question or would you object against it as well, apart

19 from the relevance issue?

20 MR. IERACE: If she means by that, "Where physically, what part of

21 town did you work?" I have no objection.


23 MR. IERACE: There is still an issue of relevance.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, Ms. Pilipovic, explain to us

25 what the relevance is of this question if it just looks at the location.

Page 1990












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1991

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is

2 relevant in view of the fact that the witness stressed that he sat at home

3 and didn't go out anywhere. To my other question, he said that nobody

4 worked in Sarajevo.

5 I would just like to test the credibility of the witness's

6 testimony, and I'd like to ask him to explain to us what part of town he

7 worked in because of his limited movements. And he said that actually

8 nobody in Sarajevo went to work. So all I want to know is the part of

9 town he worked in.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I see on my screen that the testimony

11 was not that no one in Sarajevo went to work, but at Grbavica, in that

12 part of Sarajevo, no one ever went to work. So of course you may test the

13 credibility of the witness, but only on the basis of his testimony and not

14 on an interpretation which does not stick to the wording of the

15 testimony. Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll rephrase the

17 question.

18 Q. Was your work post at Grbavica?

19 A. My work post was at Grbavica, and I said clearly that nobody in

20 Sarajevo living at Grbavica went to work. I'm talking about Grbavica when

21 I say that.

22 Q. So you know that at Grbavica, the inhabitants of Grbavica, even

23 those working in Sarajevo, downtown Sarajevo, went to work?

24 A. No. They could not go to work. They could not go into other

25 parts of town because that was impossible.

Page 1992

1 Q. Why was it impossible to go into other parts of town?

2 A. It was impossible because the front line had already been

3 established on the bank of the Miljacka River and the Vrbanja Bridge and

4 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo, and towards Hrasno and easterly towards Skenderija.

5 You couldn't pass by that way.

6 Q. You have just explained to us that the front line had been

7 formed. Could you tell us when the line was set up?

8 A. It was set up in mid-May.

9 Q. In relation to the localities that you mentioned - Miljacka, the

10 Vrbanja Most, the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge - who established the front

11 line?

12 A. The Serb army.

13 Q. Do you happen to know that in other parts of town, a front line

14 had also been formed?

15 A. Yes, I do know that.

16 Q. In respect to the other side of the Miljacka, was there a front

17 line formed there too?

18 A. I assume it was, on the basis of what I heard later on and what I

19 learnt later on. I heard that it had been, yes.

20 Q. Do you know who formed that second front line?

21 A. The Bosnia-Herzegovina army. I apologise. At that time, in those

22 initial phases, it was known as the Territorial Defence.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know who made up the Territorial Defence of

Page 1993

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina? What did it comprise?

2 A. Could you explain what you mean by your question, please.

3 Q. Do you know which people made up the Territorial Defence of the

4 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. If you mean the ethnic composition, then I know that there were

6 members of all three ethnic groups in it, but the majority were Muslims.

7 Q. Do you know that in the Territorial Defence of the BH army, there

8 were paramilitary formations as well within its composition?

9 A. I don't know what you mean by "paramilitary formations."

10 Q. You were a soldier, you did your military service, and I'm asking

11 you now whether you know that, in Sarajevo, paramilitary units or

12 formations existed.

13 A. If you mean the Territorial Defence, the Territorial Defence is

14 not a paramilitary formation. It existed before the war as well. As to

15 any other units, I am not aware of that, units that you perhaps consider

16 were paramilitary. I wasn't there on the spot for me to be able to know

17 that.

18 Q. As to the Territorial Defence of the BH and the ethnic

19 composition, how did you come by information about that? Did you learn

20 that personally or via the media?

21 A. At the beginning, while the telephone lines were working, I was

22 able to talk to members of my family who lived in other parts of town, and

23 in talking to them, in my conversations with them, that's what I learnt.

24 But let me also mention that they were people of different ethnic groups.

25 Q. Did they tell you that in those areas where they were when you

Page 1994

1 were talking to them, that they were the Juka Prazina, Musan Topalovic,

2 "Caco", Ismet Bajramovic, "Celo," paramilitary units and that they were

3 ill-treating the inhabitants of Sarajevo? Did they tell you that?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: The question lacks any probative value, given that

7 the witness has already said that he was not aware of the existence of any

8 paramilitary groups within the Territorial Defence.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness's answer

10 was that he had telephone conversations, and on the basis of those

11 telephone conversations, he learnt who and what made up the Territorial

12 Defence of the BH army. All I asked him was whether, through these

13 telephone conversations with his relatives, he received information that

14 there were paramilitary units in Sarajevo as well. All I want is a yes or

15 no answer.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied since the witness has

17 testified that he did not know about paramilitary groups because he wasn't

18 there, so he couldn't know. I think the question on whether this has been

19 part of the telephone conversations may be asked.

20 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Let me ask you again: Did they say, over the phone, when talking

23 to you, that there were paramilitary formations in Sarajevo: Musan

24 Topalovic, "Caco," Ismet Bajramovic, "Celo"?

25 A. No. That wasn't part of our telephone conversations, and during

Page 1995

1 those telephone conversations, that was not mentioned.

2 Q. Thank you. You've just told us that you were able to contact your

3 family members while the telephones were operating. When did you talk to

4 your family -- when was the last time you talked to your family?

5 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it was sometime at the

6 beginning of the war. I assume that it was up until mid-June when the

7 lines were cut. So sometime in mid-June, but I'm not quite sure.

8 Q. May we take it, then, that in mid-June, at Grbavica, the telephone

9 lines were down?

10 A. Yes. I think that's right.

11 Q. During your stay, and I'm going to be very precise, the period

12 before you left Grbavica, which is 1993, I think it was May, the 23rd or

13 18th of May, whether at Grbavica there was -- whether Grbavica had

14 electricity and water.

15 A. We had electricity occasionally, but we had to take our water from

16 the basement of the neighbouring building. So in our building there was

17 no water in my parents' apartment. But where I lived before the war, that

18 house did have water.

19 Q. So during your -- while you lived at Grbavica, you and the

20 inhabitants of Grbavica had problems with the power supply, water supply,

21 and telephone lines; is that right? Would you agree with me there?

22 A. The water problem wasn't as great as the electricity problem. And

23 the telephones weren't working, as I said, from about mid-June until I

24 left.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 1996

1 A. You're welcome.

2 Q. When you spoke about the formation of the civilian police, you

3 said that in that part of Grbavica where you lived, that the military

4 police had also been set up. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. The military police did exist.

6 Q. Do you know where the military police headquarters were located?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Where was it?

9 A. The military police headquarters at Grbavica was located in the

10 vicinity of the civilian police headquarters, about 200 metres away.

11 Q. Do you know whether there was just one headquarters or several of

12 them?

13 A. There was another headquarters of the military police somewhere at

14 Vrace, around Petrovacka Street.

15 Q. Do you know whether at Vrace, where you say the headquarters of

16 the military police was located, whether there was a police school or

17 academy there?

18 A. That police school existed before the war.

19 Q. When you say that the school existed before the war, could you

20 tell me when? When was this before the war? What I'm asking you is when,

21 according to you, did the war begin?

22 A. On the 6th of April, 1992.

23 Q. In view of the fact that you said you knew that the police school

24 existed before the war, do you know why it ceased to exist?

25 A. The school ceased to exist because of the fighting, because of the

Page 1997












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Page 1998

1 war. I know that the children at that school, attending the school, were

2 surrounded. An encirclement was formed round the school and for a time

3 they were kept in the school building and then allowed to leave and go

4 home. And from that time on, the school, as a police school, ceased to

5 exist.

6 Q. In view of the fact that you said that the war began on the 6th of

7 April, can you be more specific and tell us when the school was disbanded

8 and when the children left?

9 A. I can't tell you that. I don't remember the exact date.

10 Q. Do you agree that that was before the 6th of April?

11 A. I can't say whether it is correct or isn't correct because I don't

12 remember the exact date.

13 Q. Do you know who surrounded the school?

14 A. The Serb army did.

15 Q. Did you see that for yourself? Did you see it personally?

16 A. I didn't see it personally but I heard about it from a friend of

17 mine who lives right up above that school. That is to say, he lives 20

18 metres away from the school, and he told me. When I saw him, he told me

19 about it and said that the children were taken out of the school on one

20 occasion and that they were lined up in the courtyard of his house and

21 that, after that, they released them.

22 Q. So you do not have any personal knowledge to the effect that the

23 school had been surrounded by the JNA?

24 A. No. I did not see anything personally, with my own eyes.

25 However, I do have such knowledge, the source of which being a number of

Page 1999

1 other people. So as I said, the school was surrounded by Serb soldiers.

2 Whether members of the ex-JNA were also amongst them, I don't know.

3 Q. Who are these [redacted] that told you about that? Could

4 you tell us that?

5 A. Yes, I could.

6 Q. Could you please tell us their names.

7 A. [redacted]

8 [redacted]. I don't know his surname either. All three of them

9 used to live at Vrace, so they were able to see personally what was going

10 on.

11 Q. You're saying that they were able to see personally what was going

12 on. Do you know whether they could see that the police that was

13 surrounded was divided into Serbs and Muslims and were they able to see

14 that there was any conflict between the two of them?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I note that the

17 individuals whose names have been given by the witness were earlier

18 described by him as being his friends and, therefore, those names may well

19 tend to identify the witness. Might they be redacted?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic. No objection? They will be redacted

21 then.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, Mr. Ierace, the question is such

24 it could have been objected to easily. I mean, if you ask for the names

25 of the friends, of course. The problem you now demonstrated was visible

Page 2000

1 already at that time. It would have saved us the specific procedure of

2 redacting. So if you -- please, if you already from the question can find

3 out that this might make the protective measures less effective, will you

4 please object immediately next time.

5 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Madam Registrar, you will prepare the

7 redaction.

8 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, would you please answer my question: Did your friends tell

11 you, since they had told you that they had seen what was going on, did

12 they also tell you that the school was separated into Serbs and Muslims

13 and that there was conflict between the two sides?

14 A. That is possible. However, I do not have any knowledge about

15 that. I haven't heard of any such incident having taken place at the

16 police school at Vrace.

17 Q. Since in 1991 you were a member of the reserve police force, could

18 you perhaps tell us who the Minister of the police was in 1991, 1992? The

19 Minister of the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is.

20 A. The Minister of the police was Avdo ... the surname escapes me.

21 Sorry. I'm sorry. The Minister of the police was Delimustafic, and his

22 deputy was this person by the name of Avdo, and the second deputy Minister

23 was Momcilo Mandic.

24 Q. Thank you. In 1992, did you have an opportunity to see and have

25 contact with these people?

Page 2001

1 A. During 1992, I did have opportunity to see Momcilo Mandic;

2 however, I didn't have any contact with him.

3 Q. Could you tell us where it was that you were able to see him? I'm

4 referring to the neighbourhood of the town.

5 A. At Grbavica.

6 Q. When was that? In 1991 or in 1992?

7 A. I think that you asked me whether I had the opportunity to see him

8 during the war. There was no war in 1991, so I was referring to 1992.

9 Q. I didn't ask you specifically about the war. I asked you about

10 1991 and 1992, because you were a member of the reserve police force and I

11 wanted to know where and when you saw him, if you did.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that question asked by my friend is

13 incorrect. The English translation of that question is: "I asked you

14 about 1991 and 1992." But if one goes back to line 22, one sees that in

15 fact she asked him specifically about 1992. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On line 4 of page 16, the question was: "When

17 was that? In 1991 or in 1992?" So later on it has been included. I

18 don't think it creates great confusion, but perhaps could you please keep

19 this in mind, Ms. Pilipovic, and then proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. In 1992, did you have an opportunity to see Mr. Momo Mandic?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. When exactly in 1992 was that?

24 A. I saw him on two or three occasions, so I couldn't tell you

25 exactly when it was, but I'm sure that it took place in 1992. I remember

Page 2002

1 that the first time I saw him it was in summertime, but I'm sure that I

2 saw him again in the autumn.

3 Q. Did you see him before the war, that is, before April 1992?

4 A. Yes, very often.

5 Q. Could you tell us when was the last time you saw him before April

6 1992?

7 A. I saw him in March, at the time the first barricades were set up.

8 Q. Do you yourself have any knowledge about those barricades?

9 A. I do have some knowledge about them.

10 Q. What knowledge, when you say "some knowledge"?

11 A. At one point in time, I was able to -- I learnt who was on those

12 barricades.

13 Q. The people who were at the barricades, did they tell you where

14 those barricades were?

15 A. It was not necessary for them to tell me where they were. I could

16 see them with my own eyes.

17 Q. So where were they?

18 A. The barricades were set up at the junction near the School of

19 Economics at the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge. One of the barricades was

20 near the Vrbanja Bridge, next to the Unoninvest building, and one of them

21 was opposite the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge, at the Pofalici neighbourhood.

22 Q. So you personally saw those barricades?

23 A. Yes, I did; in particular, the ones at the Vrbanja and

24 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo bridges.

25 Q. Could you perhaps tell us when that was?

Page 2003

1 A. It was in March 1992.

2 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the removal of those barricades?

3 Were they removed at some point in time or not?

4 A. Yes. They were removed several days later. Two days later, I

5 believe.

6 Q. Do you know why they had been set up in the first place?

7 A. They were part of the measures, as a warning.

8 Q. Who set up those barricades as a warning, and a warning to whom?

9 A. The barricades were set up by the SDS, and they constituted a

10 warning --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object not only to this question,

13 but to the line of questioning on the basis of relevance. We have had

14 numerous questions as to the identity of the Minister for police, whether

15 you ever saw him, even though you didn't have contact with him; who set up

16 the barricades, how long they were up for, and so on. None of this

17 material, in my respectful submission, is relevant to the evidence of the

18 witness. In relation to credibility, one wonders - assuming that is the

19 basis of the questioning - how this could be construed as a challenge to

20 the witness's credibility. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please explain to us what

22 exactly on these issues you are now talking about, which, as far as I can

23 see, has not been covered by the examination-in-chief, under what heading

24 of Article 90(H) they're falling. Is this credibility? Is this testimony

25 relevant to your case? And then please explain what your case is in this

Page 2004












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Page 2005

1 respect and tell it to the witness, as Rule 90(H)(ii) requires you to do.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It is the

3 position of the Defence that we may test the credibility of the witness in

4 this manner, regardless of the fact that the questions were not raised

5 during the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague. We should like

6 to emphasise that, when giving the statement to the investigators of the

7 Tribunal, the witness addressed these facts, the facts that have been

8 raised by myself during the cross-examination. I'm talking about the

9 facts relating to the incidents that happened in Sarajevo during the

10 conflict or prior to the outbreak of the conflict.

11 The Defence also wishes to emphasise that General Galic has been

12 charged with having accepted the plan of siege of Sarajevo and the terror

13 against civilians. It is the submission of the Defence that there were no

14 such plans and that the issue or, rather, the case can be tested through

15 the witnesses who at the time lived in Sarajevo. Therefore, my questions

16 are relevant both for the credibility of the witness and the truthfulness

17 of the witness's testimony, in view of the fact that he lived in Sarajevo

18 at the relevant times and we were able to examine other witnesses to this

19 effect as well. By doing so, it will be possible for us to test the

20 credibility of the witnesses that have already been examined by the

21 Prosecution and cross-examined by the Defence. So it is in this manner

22 that we are testing the credibility of other witnesses as well.

23 Let me also point out the fact - I'm not sure about the relevant

24 transcript - that I objected to a question put by my learned colleague

25 Mr. Blaxill to a witness he was examining at the time. The witness was

Page 2006

1 being asked about the events which took place in April and May 1992, and

2 you wanted me to explain my objection. The response of my learned

3 colleague was that it was relevant for general allegations regarding the

4 conflict on the territory of the city of Sarajevo.

5 Likewise, it is our submission, Your Honour, that in view of the

6 relevance of these questions, and as part of Rule 90(H)(ii), the Defence

7 does have the right to cross-examine the witness about these allegations.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. My friend says that the

10 witness addressed these matters in his statement. Indeed, he did, but

11 that alone is insufficient reason to cross-examine on these matters. The

12 primary issue is always relevance.

13 Secondly, my friend said that the accused is charged with having

14 accepted the plan of siege of Sarajevo. That is incorrect. The accused

15 is charged with having committed certain crimes against humanity, and the

16 Prosecution has made plain in its pre-trial brief that the Prosecution

17 maintains that the accused assumed control of a pre-existing campaign of

18 sniping and shelling civilians. That has nothing to do with the so-called

19 plan of siege of Sarajevo.

20 Mr. President, I would have no objection to my friend

21 cross-examining this witness about what occurred immediately prior to the

22 time that the accused assumed control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

23 These questions, however, well pre-date that period. Indeed, they

24 pre-date the commencement of hostilities, and that is my objection, that

25 that period is not relevant to the charges which the accused faces. Its

Page 2007

1 relevance in this case can only be to generally set the scene.

2 I emphasise what I have said in my opening and what has been said

3 in the Prosecution pre-trial brief, that the Prosecution does not seek to

4 place blame on one side or the other of the conflict. The Prosecution is

5 not concerned with that. It's concerned purely and simply with crimes

6 which it alleges the accused carried out. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please respond on this

8 specific remark.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope that the time

10 that my learned colleague and I are now using for this particular

11 purpose -- first of all, I don't know how appropriate it is to discuss

12 these matters in the presence of a witness, but I hope that this time is

13 not going to be deducted from my cross-examination time. However, if you

14 do not share my opinion, then we suggest that in respect of these matters

15 which have also been brought up by my learned colleague, we convene a

16 Status Conference so as not to lose time, and I think that in this manner

17 we would be in a much better position to discuss the matters which are

18 relevant; those matters which are relevant for the Defence and the matters

19 which are relevant for the Prosecution.

20 As for my response, the one that was forwarded to my learned

21 friends from the Prosecution, the Defence claimed that there was no plan

22 for terrorising the citizens of Sarajevo, that there was no order

23 whatsoever that the civilian population of Sarajevo should be exposed to

24 any form of terror, in particular that there was no pre-existing campaign

25 before General Galic assumed his control as corps commander. The relevant

Page 2008

1 times is -- are the year of 1992.

2 As regards the issues that have now been raised concerning the

3 month of April 1992, I will now finish the cross-examination of the

4 witness who has provided answers to some of my questions. So with your

5 permission, Your Honour, I should like to continue my cross-examination of

6 the witness regarding the facts that are believed to be relevant and which

7 were discussed during the examination-in-chief of the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --


10 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'd first like to clarify a few things. First of

11 all, cross-examining on the subject, as Rule 90(H) says, that is where it

12 says: "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject-matter of the

13 evidence-in-chief." That is, the testimony given by the witness in court

14 and not a statement previously given to investigators of the Prosecution.

15 I think there was some misunderstanding about that.

16 Then the second issue may be matters affecting the credibility of

17 the witness. This is to be understood as the credibility of this witness,

18 the credibility of this witness in relation to his testimony given in this

19 court.

20 Let me just give you an example. If we would ask who did win the

21 Olympic Games on 10.000 metres speed skating, then of course this could be

22 of some relevance, that it means that you can test the memory of the

23 witness or -- so I wouldn't say that you cannot test the credibility of a

24 witness on -- by using other subjects, but Rule 90(H) should be understood

25 that credibility of the witness is credibility on those subjects touched

Page 2009

1 upon in his testimony.

2 And then, of course, we come to the last portion, that is, the

3 witness, is he able to give evidence relevant to the case for the

4 cross-examining party, to the subject matter of that case? I think at

5 this moment we are dealing mainly with that. And although under 90(H)(ii)

6 it says: "... counsel shall put to that witness the nature of the case of

7 the party for whom that counsel appears which is in contradiction of the

8 evidence given by the witness." This suggests already that the witness

9 has given testimony which would undermine the Defence case. Then the

10 Defence should put its case to the witness and then may examine the

11 witness on these subjects.

12 I think at this moment we are in this third section, the relevance

13 to the case for the cross-examining party. And I do agree with you that

14 especially since it is the case of the Defence that pre-existing -- a

15 pre-existing campaign was not there, that you may ask questions on that

16 subject to the witness. On the other hand, I noticed that the Prosecution

17 has not specifically dealt with this issue during the

18 examination-in-chief, but nevertheless, I will allow you, since this is a

19 rather essential part of the case of the Defence, that you put some

20 questions to him.

21 I must say that, until now, the question whether this person, this

22 Witness D, knew personally a minister or some other questions, it's not

23 clear, to me at least, what would be the relevance of these questions and

24 the answers given to these questions in respect to this part of the

25 Defence case which is that there was no pre-existing campaign. If you

Page 2010

1 please keep this in mind when you proceed, examine the witness.

2 You have also heard that the Prosecution does not object in

3 general against questioning in relation to the history of the conflict.

4 That means the period immediately preceding the 6th of April.

5 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise --


8 MR. IERACE: -- for coming to my feet, but perhaps I should

9 clarify what I said because, Mr. President, that is not my position. I

10 did not object in general to questioning in relation to the period

11 immediately before General Galic assumed command or --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I did say you did not object in general

13 against questioning.

14 MR. IERACE: But the way that's come out in the transcript, and I

15 think what you said, Mr. President, is that means the period immediately

16 preceding the 6th of April. The 6th of April is approximately when the

17 conflict commenced, and General Galic assumed command around the 10th of

18 September, 1992. So my objection relates to cross-examination at length

19 as to what happened before the 6th of April.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. But if the accused has been charged

21 with a pre-existing campaign, then of course if you want to establish that

22 there was no pre-existing campaign, then of course it's -- you might go

23 back as far as you want in order to demonstrate that there was no

24 pre-existing campaign. So that's a bit difficult to limit it in time. Do

25 you mean not pre-existing, not in June, not in May, not in April, not in

Page 2011












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2012

1 March, not in January?

2 So I will allow the Defence, to some extent, to look back in

3 history to see whether there was a pre-existing campaign.

4 MR. IERACE: As you please, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, you were born in Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You lived all your life in Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In which part of Sarajevo did you live?

12 A. For the first two years of my life, I lived in Hrasno, and the

13 rest of my life, I lived in Grbavica.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please, Ms. Pilipovic.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So we can agree that the part of town that you lived in, you know

17 it very well?

18 A. Yes. I know it well.

19 Q. Could you tell us how many inhabitants, how many people live in

20 Grbavica?

21 A. I cannot answer precisely how many people lived in Grbavica. I

22 never had any access to official statistic as to how many people lived in

23 Grbavica. I have no idea.

24 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the population?

25 A. It was mixed.

Page 2013

1 Q. Could you tell us what was the dominant ethnic group?

2 A. I do not know about Grbavica, which the predominant ethnic group

3 was; however, I do know that in the area of the municipality of Novo

4 Sarajevo, to which Grbavica belongs, where I lived, the predominant or the

5 majority population were Serbs. There were slightly more of them than

6 Muslims, and there were not many Croats.

7 Q. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you told us that a

8 decision on mobilisation had been taken in Grbavica.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know when that was?

11 A. This was immediately after the arrival of the army in Grbavica, so

12 this was early May, middle of May, roughly.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether before the decision was taken

14 about the mobilisation in mid-May there was an earlier decision on

15 mobilisation taken before that?

16 A. I don't know about those decisions, but I know that many Serbs

17 from Grbavica were already in the army when the front line was above

18 Grbavica.

19 Q. When was this?

20 A. That was before -- in the first part of March, before the

21 mobilisation. Before the mobilisation started, some of the Serbs were

22 already in the army.

23 Q. Where were they in the army?

24 A. In the Serbian army.

25 Q. Do you know where the headquarters was?

Page 2014

1 A. No, I have no idea.

2 Q. According to what information do you claim that they were in the

3 army?

4 A. Because with these very same people I was in the army later

5 myself, and I spoke to them.

6 Q. What did they tell you when you spoke to them? Where were they?

7 A. They told me they were in the army, on the front line, above

8 Grbavica, where the front line was. That's where they were. Some of them

9 told me that they had participated, that they had taken part and were at

10 those barricades we spoke about earlier.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

12 I would like to show the witness a map from the maps that I was given by

13 my learned colleagues. With your permission, I would give the witness Map

14 1, which could be useful during the examination of the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, in order to clarify, I think we have

18 two exhibits. One is P3637, which is a map -- a set of five maps that

19 were pre-marked but not marked -- no additional marks were made upon this

20 map during the examination-in-chief. And then we also have Exhibit 3637D,

21 which is a set of the same five maps, with some additional marks on it

22 made during cross-examination. Which of the sets of maps of which you

23 intend to show Map 1 are you using? The "D" version or the version

24 P3637?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just P3637. It's a

Page 2015

1 group of five maps that we got from my learned colleagues.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that no additional markings

3 will be asked by you, because otherwise we would have to use the "D"

4 version. You're just examining, not asking the witness to mark at a later

5 stage?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

7 like to have the witness indicate on the map where the positions or the

8 front line was, since the witness spoke about it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... witness to mark

10 it on the map or not? I mean, that --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then please use the "D" version, 3637D, because that

13 is the copy we use for marking during examination-in-chief and

14 cross-examination.

15 Are the stickers on the map? Yes, they still are there. Okay.

16 So we now have Map 1 of Exhibit 3637D on the ELMO.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, before you, you see a Map 1?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you indicate for us and mark it on the map where the front

21 line was for which you said that was held by the soldiers who had told you

22 that they had been to the front line. Which part of Grbavica is it?

23 A. This line that I will indicate for you is the front line which I

24 told you about that existed before Grbavica was taken. Is that what you

25 want?

Page 2016

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Could you just answer precisely whether this is the line that you

4 had marked before?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. So according to you, these are positions where the army was, where

7 the front line was?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us: What do you believe is front? According to

10 you, what is front? What is the front line?

11 A. According to me, I believe that the front line is the line along

12 which the soldiers are positioned, whether they were trenches or their

13 weaponry, or their weapons.

14 Q. Considering that I can see that this line is located near your

15 apartment or where your apartment used to be where you lived, could you

16 answer whether in that area that you had marked, whether there were

17 trenches along that line?

18 A. Yes. Along that line there were trenches, and in the vicinity

19 there was a bridge where a tank was located, and that tank was operated by

20 a young man who was in -- he was doing his regular service in the JNA. I

21 don't remember his name, but he comes from Milici.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us in this map -- could you mark for us

23 other lines, other front lines that existed and were set up in Grbavica at

24 the time, in the period before you volunteered in the army of Republika

25 Srpska and until the moment that you left the army.

Page 2017

1 A. I'm sorry. Do you mean the line of the front that was established

2 after the taking of Grbavica?

3 Q. I asked you, and I am asking you, to mark the front lines on

4 Grbavica that existed during the time that you were there, that you lived

5 there. Except that one line that you had marked, were there other front

6 lines?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I would ask you to mark them.

9 A. That is a front line that was set up when Grbavica was taken.

10 Q. Could you answer who took Grbavica?

11 A. It was taken by the Serbian army, with the help of the JNA.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the transcript, since we have been talking

13 about marking at this moment, while the witness has just been pointing at

14 pre-marked lines: The first marking, the first confrontation line, the

15 witness pointed at a pre-marked black line somewhere in the middle between

16 the words "Vrace" and "Kovacici," and the second so-called marking he

17 pointed at the blue pre-marked line on Map 1.

18 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So you marked the position in relation to the street, in relation

21 to Branka Surbeta Street. This is no longer the name of the street. So

22 in relation to Vrace and in relation to Ozrenska Street, could you mark

23 the lines, the front lines.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You could take a black biro and write it in.

Page 2018












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2019

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The black, thick marking pen. Perhaps if you

2 use dotted lines, then it becomes quite clear what has been marked at this

3 moment. So if you mark the line asked by Ms. Pilipovic, then please mark

4 it as a dotted line.

5 Before you do so, could you please ask the question again,

6 Ms. Pilipovic, what confrontation line to be marked or what -- how do you

7 call it?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The front line in the area of

9 Grbavica.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The front lines in the area of

12 Grbavica that were set up, according to the information of the witness.


14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Considering --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to read your question again. Your

16 question was: "So in relation to Vrace and in relation to Ozrenska

17 Street, could you mark the lines, the front lines."

18 Now, in rephrasing your question --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're talking about Grbavica. Could you be quite

21 precise on what you asked the witness to mark on the map.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, could you and did you know -- do you know where the front

24 line was and could you mark it?

25 A. I can mark it, but I would like to ask you to be precise as to

Page 2020

1 what you want me to mark down. At one point, you know, you mentioned

2 Vrace and Ozrenska and then you mentioned Grbavica.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question to the

4 witness was very precise, to mark the front line towards Vrace, Vrace from

5 the Branka Surbeta Street and from Ozrenska and Milinkladska Street. But

6 perhaps the first question he could answer whether --

7 Q. Do you know whether that was the front line there?

8 A. In the Branka Surbeta Street, there was no front line.

9 Q. Was there a front line in Dobojska Street?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was there a front line in Ozrenska?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you mark which part of Ozrenska Street was the front line?

14 A. Do you want me to mark it with a dotted line?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. [Marks]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. D, may I interfere again? If you lean over too

18 much to the map, the facial distortion may not be effective as it should

19 be. So could you please try, as far as possible, to mark without leaning

20 over too much? You don't have to sit -- it's a matter of not just going

21 with your face quite so near the ELMO. I think the map should remain on

22 the ELMO, but if you could just try to do it this way.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I did not hear the

24 interpretation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If you lean over too much to the ELMO, then your

Page 2021

1 facial distortion might not be complete. So would you please -- I

2 wouldn't say lean back, but at least not go that much close to the ELMO

3 while marking on the map.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you whether I

5 can mark the line on my desk and then put it back on the ELMO.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think if it would be possible to do it on the ELMO,

7 then we are in a position to better see on -- how it is done. If you

8 would just excuse me for one moment.

9 [The Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do hear that the problems of the facial distortion

11 do not exist any more, so do it just as it's convenient to you on the

12 ELMO, please.

13 Could the ELMO zoom out a bit so we can follow the witness.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]


16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, you marked a dotted line which went along Ozrenska Street

18 and went down to Hrasno. That would be -- the front line would be

19 Grbavica stadium and Milutina Djuraskovica Street, as far as I can see on

20 this map.

21 A. Yes. This was -- the border was on the Milutina Djuraskovica

22 Street.

23 Q. Yes. Could you tell me, in Ozrenska Street, how far did the front

24 line go, considering that you said that you were at that front line and

25 that it went along the Ozrenska Street and the Milinkladska Street?

Page 2022

1 A. The front line did not go Milinkladska Street. On that location

2 where we were, the Milinkladska Street actually crosses with the Ozrenska

3 Street.

4 Q. Did you pass along the Ozrenska Street before the confrontation

5 line was set up?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In July when you were with the investigators, did you go to this

8 street?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see if this street continued after the intersection and

11 went -- and went further on towards the Mojmilo hill? And this is no

12 longer its name, Ozrenska. Do you know what its current name is?

13 A. Yes, I do know. It's called Novopazarska Street.

14 Q. Do you know whether that street goes beyond this intersection as

15 we look on the map towards Mojmilo? Yes, Mojmilo.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This marking "633," does this mean that this is -- is this an

18 elevation point? Do you know what it means?

19 A. No, I don't know what that number means.

20 Q. Was that at this intersection the elevation of Gojino Brdo?

21 A. I believe that Gojino Brdo is slightly to the left of this

22 number.

23 Q. So we can agree that this marking -- that the marked Ozrenska

24 Street does not stop at that intersection but it goes towards Mojmilo

25 hill?

Page 2023

1 A. When I was at the front line, the street went further on. How far

2 it went and how much further it went, I don't know. I was never there

3 before the war and I never went after the war.

4 Q. While you were on the front line during the conflict, how far was

5 Mojmilo hill away from the intersection here? You believe the

6 Milinkladska-Ozrenska intersection?

7 A. Yes. This was some kind of hill. I don't know whether that was

8 Mojmilo or part of Mojmilo or it was just the hill in the vicinity of the

9 Mojmilo. But I believe that it was in this direction. To the left -- in

10 any case, to the left there was Mojmilo hill.

11 Q. Considering the front line of the Ozrenska Street and the location

12 that you marked, this intersection, while you were on this line, in this

13 position, were there any battles fought?

14 A. While I was there, there were -- there were no battles fought.

15 While I was there, there was no combat. There were no battles. What I

16 mean is there was no attempt to move the front lines.

17 Q. How far away was the front line of the other side?

18 A. I don't know for sure, but certainly it wasn't very far away

19 because it was a very populated settlement. There were -- and there

20 were -- houses were very close by. So there was not a far distance

21 whether we look from below or from above. It was not possible to see very

22 far away.

23 Q. Could you mark on this map, in relation to the Ozrenska Street,

24 where was the position of the BH army?

25 A. I would ask you to repeat the question.

Page 2024

1 Q. In relation to the Ozrenska Street where you marked the front

2 line, could you mark the front line of the BH army?

3 A. I cannot mark it because I was never at that front line. But I

4 believe that it was in the immediate vicinity of this front line. Simply

5 it went parallel with this line.

6 Q. When we look at this map, was this -- their line down below

7 towards the Grbavica stadium. And when we look Milinkladska Street --

8 from the Milinkladska Street, was perhaps from that front line?

9 A. The Milinkladska Street, as I told you already, was not a front

10 line.

11 Q. I asked you in relation to Ozrenska Street. When we look at the

12 map towards the Grbavica stadium, along which streets was the front line

13 or could you please mark it for us?

14 A. The front line was just below Ozrenska Street, in that part where

15 I was, you see. And as you go towards the Grbavica stadium, then it goes

16 further and further below Ozrenska Street. So it went down until up to

17 the Grbavica stadium. And then it went on further Milutina Djuraskovica

18 Street.

19 Q. Could you please mark it for us. Could you please mark these

20 positions on the street.

21 A. I have already done so.

22 Q. In relation to Milutina Djuraskovica Street and down Grbavica.

23 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear.

24 Q. Going by the Grbavica stadium and in relation to Milutina

25 Djuraskovica Street.

Page 2025












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2026

1 A. Yes. The front line was along the street of Milutina

2 Djuraskovica.

3 Q. Do you know that below the Grbavica stadium there was a front

4 line?

5 A. I don't know what you mean by "below" or "under."

6 Q. Where it says in front of "Hrasno" "Brace Ribar," I believe this

7 is a boulevard. It says "Dinarska." The intersection of Milutina

8 Djuraskovica Street?

9 A. Yes. This is where the front line went, where the Dinarska Street

10 and the Milutina Djuraskovica Street cross.

11 Q. Does this front line go to the left in relation to Brace Ribar

12 Street or does it go to the right?

13 A. As you can see as you go down by the Grbavica stadium and you come

14 to the Dinarska Street, then the front line goes to the left and then it

15 goes straight on towards the Miljacka River.

16 Q. Considering that you were there for -- for -- there for more than

17 a year at the front line in Lenjinova Street and you marked that line, do

18 you have any knowledge in relation to the Omladinsko Setaliste, whether

19 the front line went to the right or to the left?

20 A. If you -- if we're facing the Omladinsko Setaliste, the front line

21 from that position, which I marked in blue line on the map, the front line

22 went both to the left and to the right.

23 Q. In relation to this front line that you were at?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it says Omladinsko Setaliste. How far in relation to this

Page 2027

1 front line was the front line of the BH army?

2 A. Approximately 150 metres.

3 Q. Did this line go further along the Omladinsko Setaliste towards

4 Hrasno?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you mark that for us, please.

7 A. This is regarding the front line of the BH army?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Could you tell me what kind of marking should I make?

10 Q. With a blue marker.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think you have to use a black marker anyhow. You

12 have got a black marker?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --


15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With a dotted line or a full line?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Dotted line. In fact, why don't you do a full line, considering

19 these were the BH army positions, so that then we have the dotted line

20 used for the positions.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. D, if this is the -- if these are the positions

23 of the BiH army, please use a full line and not a dotted line. So now you

24 can make a full line.

25 That's what is suggested by you, Ms. Pilipovic, and I think what

Page 2028

1 the witness didn't actually do. Yes, please proceed.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks] I apologise, but when I was marking the Serb

3 army positions, I made a mistake. I can see that now.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

5 Q. If you could, could you draw the positions of the Serb army in a

6 dotted line and then --

7 A. These are the Serb army positions. That's why I used a dotted

8 line.

9 Q. Very well. Now draw in the positions of the BH army, please, with

10 a full line.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Do we agree that along this line, both lines, that the distance

13 between the two front lines, according to you, was very small? And could

14 you tell us approximately how much it is expressed in metres or

15 kilometres?

16 A. At some points it was a small distance; at others, it was a large

17 distance. For example, at the Grbavica stadium, it was rather large.

18 Q. How large?

19 A. Well, the breadth of a stadium.

20 Q. And what about towards -- in relation to Omladinsko Setaliste and

21 Ozrenska?

22 A. Well, I've already said. With respect to Omladinsko Street, it is

23 150 metres, approximately, whereas is Ozrenska, their positions in

24 Ozrenska, I was never able to see, actually, but I can assume that the

25 distance was quite small, 50-odd metres perhaps.

Page 2029

1 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that in respect to the line,

2 this part of town was divided between the Serb army and the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or the army of Republika Srpska and the BH army, after

4 these lines were established?

5 A. It was the confrontation line, the demarcation line between the

6 army of Republika Srpska and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. When did you go to the front line for the first time when you

8 volunteered for the army of Republika Srpska in June 1992? When did you

9 go first?

10 A. That same evening.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we are close to a quarter to 11.00.

12 You might have noticed that we went on a bit longer than usual. That's

13 because we'll stop at 1.00. So we'll adjourn for half an hour and just

14 have one break. Could you please find a suitable moment within the next

15 one or two minutes to interrupt your cross-examination, please.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a good place

17 to take the break.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. So we'll have one break this

19 morning. We'll adjourn until a quarter past 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.17 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, that evening when you went to your positions, how many of

25 you were there, or were you alone?

Page 2030

1 A. There were more of us.

2 Q. How many of you were there?

3 A. The whole platoon.

4 Q. So you were all together at the place where your headquarters was;

5 is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you be more specific and tell us what location that was?

8 A. It was the place where the --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please put off your microphone, Ms. Pilipovic.

10 A. It was the place where a company called Drvo Rijeka was located

11 before the war.

12 Q. On that occasion, apart from the rifle which you said you kept,

13 you were issued, were you issued a uniform as well?

14 A. No, I was not issued a uniform.

15 Q. What about the other members of your platoon? What were they

16 wearing? Did they have uniforms or were they without uniforms?

17 A. Some of them had a complete uniform set, the kind that the former

18 JNA wore. Others had parts of uniforms. Some wore boots, others had

19 trainers, sports shoes. People were dressed differently.

20 Q. Who issued the order for you to take up your positions?

21 A. The leader of the platoon, [redacted].

22 Q. Did you have a department [as interpreted] within your platoon?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So you didn't have a leader for the squad.

25 A. No.

Page 2031

1 Q. What orders did you receive from the platoon commander?

2 A. The order was that we were to take up our positions, and he said

3 who was to be deployed where. He would call out our names and say,

4 "So-and-so to take up that position," another person to take up another

5 position, that kind of thing.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Line 41 -- that is page 41, line 11 of the English

9 transcript reads:

10 "Q. Did you have a department within your platoon?"


12 MR. IERACE: "A." - answer - "No."

13 And I think it was translated in the same form in terms of the

14 voice. That question, to me, does not make sense. I assume that there is

15 a mistranslation.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter I apologises. It was "squad."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. So your squad commander told you what positions you would be

20 taking up; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did the platoon commander issue any orders?

23 A. Yes, he did.

24 Q. Which?

25 A. He said -- he ordered us to be very careful, to be cautious, and

Page 2032












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2033

1 to open fire as soon as we saw something.

2 Q. In your platoon, were you able to open fire without the commander

3 giving orders?

4 A. Which are you -- which commander are you referring to?

5 Q. Referring to the leader of your platoon. You said that he was the

6 one to issue orders.

7 A. Yes. I could decide myself when to open fire and when not to open

8 fire, and his orders were general orders that we should fire on time.

9 Q. So when could you open fire?

10 A. I was able to open fire when I saw fit, when I thought it was

11 necessary.

12 Q. Did you in fact open fire?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. When?

15 A. When I wanted to.

16 Q. Did you inform your commander that you fired when you thought you

17 should do?

18 A. No, because he was informed about that, so there was no need to

19 inform him separately about that. He already knew that we opened fire

20 when we considered it necessary to do so.

21 Q. While you were at those positions, did the other side fire at you?

22 A. No, except sniper fire.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I just wanted to remind you about the

24 microphone. Thank you.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2034

1 Q. While you were on duty, did the snipers target you?

2 A. Yes, at all the positions that were visible, that the snipers on

3 the other side could see and target.

4 Q. From your position, could you see the facilities or parts of town

5 that the snipers were firing from? I'm talking about the Muslim side,

6 from the Muslim side.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you show us on the map in relation to the front line and

9 your position there? Could you mark the buildings and tell us which they

10 were from which the snipers fired?

11 A. May I place an "X" at that point?

12 Q. Yes, you can put an "X," and tell us what the building or location

13 was called.

14 A. Very well. I shall mark in an "X" and tell you what the place was

15 called. This building was the building of the Executive Council.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you make any additional markings, would you please

17 add a "1" to this "X" or use other letters when marking other locations.

18 So either add a "1" or use -- for the next location you will mark a "Y" or

19 a "Z" or a "W."

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I put an "X2" at this other

21 place?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This building was the Mathematics

24 Faculty, Natural Sciences and Mathematics Faculty building.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2035

1 Q. Was the Machine Engineering Faculty building close by?

2 A. Yes. The Machine Engineering building was right next door to the

3 Natural Sciences and Maths Faculty.

4 Q. Could you mark that building for us? And was there a sniper

5 firing from that building too?

6 A. Yes, there was a sniper, but the sniper did not target our

7 positions. Our positions were not clearly visible from that building.

8 Q. Was the building of the Electricity Board there too, the

9 Electroprivreda building?

10 A. That is a little lower down on the map and towards the left-hand

11 side.

12 Q. Could you mark that on the map, please.

13 A. You mean the electricity building?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Do you want me to put an "X3" there?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Is the Bristol Hotel close by?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Do you know whether there was a sniper on top of the hotel? And

21 if so, would you mark it in, please.

22 A. I had heard that there was a sniper shooting from that building

23 too.

24 Q. Then could you mark in the position of the Bristol Hotel.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 2036

1 Q. What about the Unoninvest [phoen] building? Is it located there

2 too?

3 A. No, it isn't.

4 Q. While you were at your position, did any shooting come from that

5 side and from those positions? Was there any sniper fire?

6 A. Yes. As I've already said, from the Executive Council building

7 and the Natural Sciences and Mathematics Faculty building.

8 Q. Do you know whether, on the side that your positions were, anybody

9 was killed by sniper fire?

10 A. Yes, I do know something about that.

11 Q. What about the members of your platoon? Were any of them wounded

12 or killed by sniper fire?

13 A. No. Nobody from my platoon was killed by sniper fire.

14 Q. But you know that some people were killed. Were they civilians?

15 A. There were civilians too.

16 Q. The time you spent at those positions, do you happen to know how

17 many civilians were killed while you were there?

18 A. I know about three civilians who were killed.

19 Q. While you were on duty - and you said you worked in shifts - did

20 your shift have to report about the daily events during your shift? Did

21 you have to make a report?

22 A. We did not have to make any special reports. But as I have

23 already said, we did have a telephone communication line with the

24 headquarters in Drvo Rijeka, so we were able to communicate by phone.

25 Q. Do you know whether your platoon commander wrote reports on the

Page 2037

1 activities of his men and the situation up at the front line covered by

2 your platoon?

3 A. I think he did. I think he reported via the company commanders to

4 the headquarters in Banjalucka Street, because I know they went to the

5 headquarters in Banjalucka Street for consultations. There were also

6 situations where the battalion commander would tour the front line and

7 things of that kind. And that's how I'm able to conclude that they did

8 have constant contact, that they knew what was going on at the front line.

9 Q. Do you know that your platoon commander's reports to the company

10 commander, do you happen to know whether they were oral reports or written

11 reports?

12 A. I don't know whether he reported orally or in written form. I

13 think that previously they had been oral reports, but I'm not quite sure.

14 Q. Did you yourself, in view of your position, if you noted any

15 irregularities in the course of your shift at the front line, would you

16 inform your superior officer, the platoon commander, telling him that this

17 was not in line with war -- the laws of war?

18 A. No. I never informed him about things like that.

19 Q. The members of your platoon or the members of the company, do you

20 happen to know whether any of them was wounded during the fighting or were

21 their lives in jeopardy?

22 A. Yes, some of them were wounded, and some of them were killed too.

23 Q. While you were at those positions, there was armed conflict.

24 There was fighting on both sides.

25 A. As I've already said, at Grbavica, which I marked in in the map,

Page 2038

1 there was no fighting except this sniper fire. And this also applies to

2 the Ozrenska Street positions while I was there.

3 Q. Did the snipers respond, the ones you saw on the high-rise

4 buildings?

5 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you explain what

6 you mean?

7 Q. Do you know whether the snipers who were positioned on the

8 high-rise buildings at your positions, did they fire at the opposite side,

9 and if so, in which direction?

10 A. Yes, I do know that they did open fire.

11 Q. Would you agree with me that they were positioned on those

12 high-rise buildings as snipers to retaliate and respond to the fire

13 incoming from the top of the Executive Council building and the

14 Mathematics Faculty building?

15 A. No, I don't agree with you there because I know that that wasn't

16 the case.

17 Q. You said that while you were at the front line at Ozrenska Street,

18 that there was no shooting.

19 A. While I was there, there was no -- the lines did not move. There

20 were no heavy conflicts. But a sniper did shoot quite frequently on both

21 sides.

22 Q. Could you tell us how long the front line was in Ozrenska Street

23 and also the front line where your position was?

24 A. The front line at Ozrenska Street is a very long line, whereas my

25 platoon's line was about 150 metres long.

Page 2039












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2040

1 Q. So the line at Ozrenska Street was longer than 150 metres; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Do you happen to know how many people were positioned at the front

5 line in Ozrenska Street?

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: I apologise for interrupting. I think there's a

9 problem with the transcript, commencing -- I would take it first at page

10 48, line 1:

11 Q. You said that while you were at the front line at

12 Ozrenska Street, that there was no shooting."

13 That question does not accurately reflect the evidence. I suspect

14 there may be a translation problem rather than my friend -- my learned

15 friend improperly putting a question.

16 And then in the answer at line 4 of page 48, this appears:

17 "A. But a sniper did shoot quite frequently on both

18 sides."

19 I'd be surprised if the witness said "a sniper." I would expect

20 it was, rather: "But sniping or snipers did shoot quite frequently on

21 both sides," having regard to the clear evidence so far.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think in the answer the witness corrected

23 already some of the objections you made against the question as such.

24 But could you please, Ms. Pilipovic, clarify the issue about the

25 shooting, whether there was sniping fire or there was a sniper? In --

Page 2041

1 your question was that -- you said: "While you were at the front line at

2 Ozrenska Street, there was no shooting." I think the testimony was that

3 there was sniper fire. So that is an incorrect statement if it's well

4 translated. So would you please clarify this issue on whether -- yes,

5 please.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My question was whether there was

7 any armed combat, armed operations while he was up at the front line at

8 Ozrenska Street.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would this mean that you made no reference at

10 all to the testimony earlier given by the -- I mean, the question was

11 introduced by quoting or at least referring to the testimony of the

12 witness. Would you please rephrase that question again, where exactly,

13 and also try to clarify on whether there was one sniper or sniping fire.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My question was whether at the

15 front lines where the witness was positioned while he was a member of the

16 army of Republika Srpska, which was the front line in Lenjinova Street and

17 Ozrenska Street, whether there was any armed operations or, rather, was

18 there shooting from both sides.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, your question at page 48, line 1,

20 starts with referring to the statement of the witness. Is this an

21 incorrect translation or did you refer to the statement of the witness?

22 I'm not talking about your question that followed but the reference to

23 the -- to the testimony of the witness. It reads in English:

24 "Q. You said that while you were at the front line at

25 Ozrenska Street, that there was no shooting."

Page 2042

1 That's what the translation says. Is that what you said?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was as

3 follows -- it wasn't shooting. What I said was armed operations, and I

4 was referring to what the witness said. While he was up at the front line

5 in Ozrenska Street, there were no armed operations.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then there might be a problem as far as the

7 translation is concerned. Would you please then clarify the issue of

8 "sniping fire" or "a sniper" by putting this question to the witness more

9 specifically.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Was there any sniping at the front lines in Ozrenska Street?

12 A. Yes, there was sniping at the front lines in Ozrenska Street,

13 coming from both sides, on both sides. And if I may, what you were

14 discussing a moment ago, may I clarify something to avoid

15 misunderstanding? May I clarify what we discussed a moment ago?

16 Q. While you were in Ozrenska Street, at the positions there, you

17 said that --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness asked whether he could

19 clarify an issue, and I would like to give him the opportunity to clarify,

20 because he -- it aims at avoiding misunderstandings.

21 Mr. D, you may clarify the answer given.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were armed operations at

23 Ozrenska, and I said that there was sniping from both sides. And I'm

24 talking about the time period when I was present there. Fire from the

25 other side was not opened except for the sniping. While we were there, we

Page 2043

1 did open fire, from all the weapons that we had in our possession at the

2 time. I'm talking about the time I was there, the periods I spent there.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. We're now talking about Ozrenska Street. What weapons did you

5 possess, did your battalion - I'm sorry, your platoon - possess while you

6 were at these positions at Ozrenska Street?

7 A. We had all types of infantry weapons.

8 Q. Would you please tell us about these infantry weapons.

9 A. In most of the cases, it consisted of an automatic rifle, 7.62

10 millimetres, that is, a semi-automatic rifle; then a machine-gun, 7.62

11 millimetres. Available to us was also a weapon which is used for

12 launching grenades, the so-called Zolja, which is a hand-held rocket

13 launcher. Furthermore, we had weapons for directional fire,

14 anti-personnel weapon, which is activated with a trigger. We had

15 sufficient amount of ammunition. We also had two kinds of anti-personnel

16 grenades, two machine-guns of an older type, 7.92 millimetres calibre.

17 There were no sniping rifles in my platoon. No one was issued with a

18 sniping rifle or an M-84 machine-gun in my platoon.

19 Q. Out of the weapons that you have now indicated, what was in the

20 possession of your platoon?

21 A. Everything except for sniping rifles and M-84 machine-guns.

22 Q. So there was a person in charge of a mortar in your platoon?

23 A. A mortar is something different. I was talking about hand-held

24 rocket launchers, about Zoljas. This is a different type of weapon that

25 you actually carry on your shoulder when firing.

Page 2044

1 Q. In Ozrenska Street, while you were on duty on your position, was

2 there a mortar?

3 A. Yes, there was, but it was not operated by the people from my

4 platoon.

5 Q. So while you were there on the position, since you stated that

6 there was no activity, such activity, you did not use a mortar?

7 A. I didn't say that there was no combat activity at all.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I appreciate the witness has clarified

9 that problem in relation to combat activity, but I would be grateful if my

10 friend would not put to the witness inaccurately his previous testimony.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think there is at least some reason

13 for that, unless there is a translation problem. But could you please

14 try, as I stress again and again, to quote as precisely as possible.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness

16 enumerated the weapons which, according to his knowledge, were used while

17 he was on position in Ozrenska Street. I am only concerned about the

18 accurate translation of the so-called Zolja, the weapon which the witness

19 said was issued to the members of his platoon while he was in Ozrenska

20 Street, and that was the reason why I asked whether they had a mortar as

21 well. I wanted to clarify to avoid any mistakes in interpretation,

22 because so far the witness did state that there was a mortar in Ozrenska

23 Street.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't mind your line of questioning. I just remind

25 you on referring to testimony given before as precisely as possible. That

Page 2045

1 was not always done. Thank you.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, while you were deployed on the positions in Ozrenska

4 Street, who manned the mortar which was positioned there?

5 A. Some soldiers who were not members of my platoon or my company.

6 Q. Did you know what unit they belonged to?

7 A. You mean which company they belonged to?

8 Q. Which formation or unit?

9 A. They were members of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

10 Q. You learned about that particular fact, that they were members of

11 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, from them?

12 A. The individuals in question were local residents, so it was only

13 logical that they should be members of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. They

14 were people who used to live there before the war.

15 Q. Did they tell you that they were members of the Sarajevo-Romanija

16 Corps, or was it your conclusion because of the fact that they were local

17 residents?

18 A. I never explicitly asked them whether they were members of the

19 Sarajevo Corps, so they could not have provided me with such an answer.

20 Q. So you came to that conclusion on the basis of the fact that they

21 lived there?

22 A. They lived there, and it was obvious that their activity, mortar

23 activity, was consistent with our activity. They made sure that it was

24 consistent with our activity.

25 Q. What kind of mortar was it, the one that you were able to see?

Page 2046












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2047

1 A. I don't exactly remember the calibre, so I'm not in a position to

2 tell you. I don't remember that. All I can tell you is that it was a

3 medium-calibre barrel. As far as I know, there were three types of

4 calibre, and this one, I think, was of medium calibre.

5 Q. Do you know what the number of the members of the mortar crew was,

6 in view of the military regulations? What would have been the number of

7 the crew?

8 A. No, I don't know that.

9 Q. Is there a gunner who is a part of that mortar crew?

10 A. There is a so-called gunner as part of the mortar crew, who is in

11 charge of moving the barrel and adjusting the target in accordance with

12 what they want to fire at.

13 Q. Were you present when they fired this mortar?

14 A. No, I was not present. I was not able to see it with my own

15 eyes. However, the placement was some 30 metres away from our positions,

16 so I was able to conclude from the sound of the detonation that the firing

17 was done from there, from that placement.

18 Q. On the map which is in front of you, could you please indicate for

19 us and show us where the Jewish cemetery is located.

20 A. Yes, I could do that. [Indicates]

21 Q. Could you mark the location with a circle so as to differentiate

22 it from other markings.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. In relation to your positions and facing the Jewish cemetery,

25 could you indicate for us where the front line was?

Page 2048

1 A. Could you please repeat your question?

2 Q. In relation to your positions and facing the Jewish cemetery,

3 could you indicate for us where the front line was, if you know?

4 A. You mean where the front line at the Jewish cemetery was? Is that

5 what you mean?

6 Q. Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, just for the sake of clarity, could

8 you please indicate at what time you want to have the front line indicated

9 by the witness since the testimony was before that there have been changes

10 from the beginning of the conflict.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was referring to

12 the period while the witness was a member of the VRS until his departure

13 from that force. That is, June 1992 until May 1993.

14 Q. Witness D, could you please mark for us where the front line was

15 during that period of time.

16 A. I don't think I can be very specific and precise, because I was

17 never present on that front line. However, I do have an idea where it was

18 so I can approximate.

19 Q. Would you do that, please.

20 A. This would be the location of the line, more or less.

21 Q. While you were a member of this platoon, did your commander ever

22 tell you and your colleagues that there was an order issued by the

23 Presidency of the Republika Srpska concerning the respect of regulations

24 and laws of war, and were you at any point in time warned to that effect,

25 that is, that you should abide by those provisions while you were on

Page 2049

1 duty?

2 A. No. We were never warned to that effect. We never received any

3 such instruction.

4 Q. While you were a member of this platoon, were you aware of the

5 battalion or the brigade to which your platoon was subordinated?

6 A. No. I don't know what brigade our platoon belonged to. I did not

7 have information about that structure and the hierarchy of those military

8 units. I must say that I was not interested in knowing about this

9 hierarchy.

10 Q. Do you know where the corps command was? That is, the command of

11 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, do you know where it was located?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Could you tell us who wrote the authorisations that you received

14 when -- prior to your leaving the territory.

15 A. I received the first authorisation at the Drvo Rijeka

16 headquarters. The second one, I had to go to the Banjalucka Street to get

17 it, and it was signed in my presence by the deputy commander, [redacted]

18 [redacted].

19 Q. As regards the authorisations that you provided to the OTP and

20 which were subsequently disclosed to the Defence, it says that in October

21 you were authorised to travel to Ruma and Sombor; is that correct?

22 A. I did not go to Sombor.

23 Q. Did you travel to Ruma?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. As regards the second authorisation with the destination Belgrade,

Page 2050

1 did you actually travel to Belgrade?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Why did you go to Ruma?

4 A. I travelled to Ruma because my friends live there.

5 Q. You told us that you had left the VRS after you received the

6 second authorisation in the month of May.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why is it that you decided never to return?

9 A. Because I didn't want to get killed and because I wanted to become

10 reunited with my family.

11 Q. Does that mean that your family was not with you at Grbavica?

12 A. Part of my family was and part of it wasn't.

13 Q. Were your parents with you at Grbavica?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. What about the other part of your family? Who do you have in mind

16 when you say the other part of the family?

17 A. My brother.

18 Q. Did your brother live in Ruma or Belgrade?

19 A. No, he did not.

20 Q. What about your daughter? Where did she live?

21 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, firstly on the grounds of

22 relevance, and secondly because the answer may tend to identify the

23 witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you respond, Ms. Pilipovic, on both aspects of

25 the objection. And please keep in mind also that, during the response, we

Page 2051

1 should respect the -- the protective measures that are existing.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll rephrase the

3 question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Sir, where exactly at Grbavica did you live?

7 A. I lived at Grbavica in the [redacted].

8 Q. In which street?

9 A. [redacted].

10 Q. You told us that on the 22nd of June, you had moved with your

11 parents to [redacted]-- I don't need to mention the name of the street. I

12 think you understand which street I have in mind.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did your family move with you to [redacted], that is,

15 your parents?

16 A. Who do you have in mind when you speak about my family?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you say that you don't have to name

18 the street, I'm a bit surprised that you do just one moment afterwards. I

19 suggest that already -- although the Prosecution has not objected, I'd

20 like to have redacted the -- any detail about where Witness D lived, what

21 street, what area. We know that he has been living in Grbavica and

22 that's, I think for the time being, good enough.

23 Madam Registrar, would you please prepare the redaction.

24 And please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

Page 2052


2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is in the

3 possession of a statement which was given by the witness to the OTP

4 investigators in 1997. I merely wish to check whether the allegations

5 made in the statement by the witness are correct.

6 The witness stated on page 1 --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- page 2, actually --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, let me interrupt you. If this can be

10 done without violation of the protective measures that have been granted

11 later on [sic], fine. If not, you should make a proposal to do it

12 otherwise.

13 So I do understand what your intention is, but the means how to

14 come to your aim are still bound by the protective measures. So either

15 you can do it without violating them, then please proceed. If not, you

16 can make any suggestion to have this clarified in any other way with full

17 respect of the protective measures.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence should

19 like to suggest that the first page of the statement given by the witness

20 to the OTP investigators, 00969512 in the B/C/S version, be submitted to

21 the witness. And we propose that the witness reads this page of his

22 statement, and then I should like to ask him to confirm, by simply nodding

23 his head, whether the contents of the statement are correct, and in that

24 way I think we will not identify him.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --

Page 2053












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Page 2054

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] All I'm asking, Your Honour, is

2 for the witness to say, "Yes, that's correct," or not.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also suggested that he would read this

4 statement first, and then, of course, nodding your head is of a neutrality

5 which is not of great help to solve the problem. I would suggest that you

6 confer -- I don't know how much time you will still use for the

7 cross-examination. If it would be finished before 1.00, I would suggest

8 that you confer with the Prosecution and to communicate what line you

9 would like to show to the witness, and then he doesn't have to read it.

10 And then I think this part of the statement can be tendered into evidence

11 and then, of course, sealed. So that it is not necessary to read it, that

12 the Chamber can read it at the moment it is tendered, and the protective

13 measures are fully respected. So that would be my suggestion, and not to

14 have this part of the statement read by the witness and the subsequent

15 nodding yes or no.

16 Would that -- is there any objection from the Prosecution in this

17 respect?

18 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. I would simply add that I have no

19 objection to the witness reading the relevant part to himself and then

20 confirming the accuracy of the relevant part.

21 Secondly, having regard to my learned friend saying earlier that

22 the material is in statement form, I would simply seek to respectfully

23 remind the Defence that there is still current an order made by the

24 pre-trial Chamber in June of 2000 forbidding -- directing that statements

25 and the like are not to be disclosed publicly. Effectively, the order

Page 2055

1 limits the communication of the contents of witness statements to that

2 which occurs between Defence counsel and the accused. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, what do you think about my

4 suggestion?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, I

6 accept your proposal. I think that it will be sufficient for my

7 colleagues to see which page of the statement I'm talking about, and then

8 later on, we will tender that page into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think that will not be enough, because the

10 Chamber has to know exactly what the witness was asked to read. I mean,

11 otherwise we get a full page and we don't know what part the witness was

12 confronted with. So I don't know. If you do not -- I don't know whether

13 you'll conclude your cross-examination before 1.00. If not, please

14 prepare a copy of that page, show it to the Prosecution, indicate clearly

15 on that page what lines you're asking the witness to confirm, so that the

16 Chamber also knows later on, if it has been admitted into evidence,

17 although sealed, that we know, at least, what it is all about. Please

18 proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness D, you testified that while deployed in Ozrenska Street,

21 that the front line was rather long. Were any trenches located there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many days per week would you remain deployed on those

24 positions?

25 A. I was deployed there six or seven times, and each time we would

Page 2056

1 stay for five days without any interruption, apart from the last time I

2 was there, when we stayed only one day.

3 Q. Where did you receive food while on duty?

4 A. There, at the very location.

5 Q. Was there any kitchen which was in charge of supplying food to the

6 soldiers?

7 A. The food was brought to us in a house just above Ozrenska Street,

8 and it was from that house that it was distributed to the soldiers on the

9 line.

10 Q. While you were a member of the VRS, you told us that there were

11 casualties and fatalities amongst soldiers.

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Do you know where the wounded soldiers were being treated?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where was that?

16 A. Initially it was in Tilave [phoen], apart from severe cases that

17 were transported to the hospital in Pale. When this war hospital was no

18 longer there in Tilave, then the soldiers were transported to the

19 barracks. There was an infirmary at Vrace.

20 Q. Do you know that Colonel Toni Posa was treating soldiers at Tilave

21 hospital, him being a Slovenian and a member of the VRS?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that members of other ethnic groups were

24 amongst the corps personnel, except for Slovenians?

25 A. I know only of this individual.

Page 2057

1 Q. Have you ever heard of Lieutenant Colonel Skolar?

2 A. No, I have not.

3 Q. You're not aware of the fact that he was a Slovenian and a member

4 of the VRS?

5 A. No, I am not.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just need to

7 consult my colleague. Just a moment.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 [Defence counsel confer]

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. While you were at the position in Lenjinova Street, you were

12 deployed in skyscrapers?

13 A. Next to the skyscrapers.

14 Q. What was the disposition? How many soldiers were deployed at

15 these positions by the -- next to the skyscraper?

16 A. By the first skyscraper, there were three; second, there were two

17 or three; and at the third one, sometimes there were two soldiers,

18 sometimes three, it depended on how many soldiers were available. And on

19 the fourth one, there were always four soldiers available.

20 Q. In the period while you were at those positions, were there people

21 living in those skyscrapers?

22 A. Yes, but there were also many flats that had been abandoned.

23 Q. Were these buildings damaged?

24 A. Yes. The fourth skyscraper, its top had burnt.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, just in order to have a look at the

Page 2058

1 clock, as you know, I reminded the Prosecution as well several times that

2 we are taking a lot of time. You just asked the witness about the number

3 of members of his platoon employed at the different buildings. This has

4 been asked by the Prosecution, and in full detail, and the witness gave

5 exactly the same answer. So it's purely repetitious, but I waited to make

6 this comment until the moment that you continued, because there was no

7 subsequent question testing the credibility. You just accepted the answer

8 as it was given and continued on other issues. So would you please either

9 explain to us now what was the reason for repeating this question

10 or -- yes, please.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will

12 explain.

13 Q. I'm sorry. I missed asking the question whether, according to

14 your knowledge, since you were a member of the platoon, these numbers were

15 sufficient to cover this front line where the skyscrapers were located?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You could have asked this without repeating the

17 question about the numbers. You could just indicate, "Yesterday you gave

18 exact numbers, two or three or four at each building," would have been

19 enough.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... repeat it.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 Q. Could you answer this question, please? In the way that you were

24 positioned, was there enough of you to cover the front line from possible

25 firing or armed operations, the positions that is the skyscrapers?

Page 2059

1 A. I am not a military expert, and I cannot make this kind of

2 assessment.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I will

4 now allow my colleague to take over the cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would there be any indication as far as the

6 time you would use, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you so much,

8 Mr. President. I am not going to go on for very long. Possibly a quarter

9 of an hour unless there is an interruption.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you so much.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Hello, sir. I would also like to ask you some

14 questions. My first question: You said -- you told us about your

15 professional qualifications, and you said that you were not able to work,

16 but you did not tell us whether you were receiving your salary during the

17 period in question. Were you receiving a salary during the period in

18 question?

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question as it

20 presently reads. I'd ask that my learned friend clarify the question. Is

21 he referring to the period of time that the witness was a member of the

22 platoon? Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Could you make it more precise

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the

Page 2060












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Page 2061

1 period -- I'm talking about the period, more precisely, when the witness,

2 before he became a member of the Serbian army, when he was living in

3 Grbavica and said that he was not able to work for geographical and

4 political reasons.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in that case, I object on the grounds

6 of relevance.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate what the relevance is,

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is very relevant,

10 Mr. President. It is a very relevant question, because I believe that

11 Mr. Ierace understood it very well, that this answer will justify the

12 relevance of the first question that goes to the credibility of the

13 witness, because this witness engaged himself voluntarily in an army that

14 he left in an irregular manner. So my second question would be whether he

15 was paid by -- if he was receiving a salary.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... received any

17 salary for his military activities or for his civilian activities he was

18 not able to perform?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No. What I want to know

20 is, firstly, Mr. President, whether he received or not his salary before

21 he volunteered for the army; and secondly, whether he received a salary

22 after he became a member.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness D, did you understand the questions? Could

24 you please then answer these questions.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is not clear enough. I

Page 2062

1 don't understand what is meant when "salary" is mentioned, whether they

2 mean the salary for my civilian activity or for my military activity.

3 Could somebody explain this?

4 JUDGE ORIE: I will put a question to you. The first question

5 is: When you were not able to work, not as a military but before, as a

6 civilian, did you receive your salary of your employer, if employed?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not receive a salary.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you receive a salary when you were still at

9 work? So before the situation existed that you were not able to go to

10 work.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And the next question is whether you received any

13 salary for your military activities when you had joined your platoon.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there are any additional

16 questions, please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is

18 exactly where I wanted to arrive at. Sorry, I was interrupted by the

19 Prosecution, so I'll be a little longer. But the second question I'd like

20 to ask the witness is the following, and I would like to get a yes or no

21 answer, if that is possible.

22 Q. So I am considering that you entered an army, you became a member

23 of the army voluntarily that -- an army was going to pay you a salary. Is

24 that correct? Yes or no.

25 A. I don't know what you mean by "regular," because I was not

Page 2063

1 mobilised.

2 Q. What I said was "voluntarily."

3 A. Yes, but I don't understand what you mean I was a regular member

4 of the army. What do you mean "regular"? Could you please explain?

5 Q. Okay. Voluntarily. Voluntarily. You have already indicated

6 this, that you had a contract. It was your own decision. This was your

7 proprio motu. It was your own will. Of your own free will you entered,

8 you became a member of an army.

9 A. That is correct, yes. I became a member of the army voluntarily,

10 and I was a regular soldier of the VRS, of the army of Republika Srpska.

11 Q. So -- and I believe that you became a member voluntarily for the

12 motives -- for personal motives.

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Thank you for your answer. Sir, after you decided -- when you

15 decided to leave the army, is it true to say that you acted as a

16 deserter?

17 A. I became a member of the army voluntarily under a great

18 psychological pressure, and I left the army as a deserter under a great

19 psychological pressure.

20 Q. As a deserter, yes. It is the answer to my question. I would

21 like to ask another question. At the moment, sir, that you decided to

22 leave this army that you by yourself joined, your parents, were they still

23 living in Grbavica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, you declared during your testimonial that when you entered,

Page 2064

1 when you became a member of the army, it was your fear for your family,

2 primarily for your parents, and it was -- in the light of this testimony,

3 isn't there a contradiction if you are deserting at the time when your

4 parents are still residing in Grbavica?

5 A. Yes. You know, a war -- a war is full of contradictions.

6 Q. Thank you so much for your answer. You have told us, sir, that

7 you were not wearing a uniform when you were active in your unit. Could I

8 then believe that on the other side there were also combatants - and I'm

9 insisting on this term "combatant" - who on the front line were also not

10 wearing a uniform, on the other side?

11 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. The question does not at

12 this stage correctly reflect the witness's evidence. The question in part

13 states, "You have told us, sir, that you were not wearing a uniform when

14 you were active in your unit." That appears to reflect the answers given

15 to questions asked by Ms. Pilipovic. In fact, he was asked whether he was

16 issued with a uniform when he first joined the platoon.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand your objection.

18 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you first clarify the issue

20 on whether the witness has not -- did not wear a uniform during the whole

21 period of his military activity.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question

23 wasn't exactly such. On page 41, I believe 18:05 - I can perhaps take up

24 the transcript on that stage - I heard the witness say that he did not

25 receive a uniform. That means he was not issued with a uniform. That

Page 2065

1 means that he was -- had sports shoes, jeans. So he was without uniform.

2 He did not wear a uniform. During the same period --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was aiming at the period when he

4 first went to his platoon, so that does not clarify whether he had not a

5 uniform during the whole period of his activity. But you are referring to

6 the testimony - let me just try to find it - that, "You were not wearing a

7 uniform when you were active in your unit." That's the English

8 translation. And that would cover the whole period of time. While the

9 answer given by the witness, as far as my recollection goes, was about

10 whether he was issued a uniform at the time when he was sent to his

11 platoon first. Additional questions then were what the other members of

12 his platoon were wearing.

13 So would you please, if you want to continue this question, either

14 rephrase your question thus that it does not cover the whole period of his

15 military activity or --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- or first ask this question to the witness.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

19 Mr. President.

20 Q. Sir, at the time -- and this is referring to your first statement

21 at the period when you joined the army. You said -- you testified that

22 you were not issued a uniform. So my question is the following: Is it

23 true to say that at the same time that we -- it is true to say that at the

24 same time, on the other side, there were combatants, soldiers who were not

25 in uniform, who were not wearing a uniform?

Page 2066

1 A. Who do you mean from "the other side"?

2 Q. Sir, you said yourself that there were combatants on one side.

3 This is the terms that you used yourself when we are talking about the

4 other side. So we are talking about the enemy. So independent of their

5 race or religion. So the other side.

6 A. I have no idea what they were wearing. I never saw them. My only

7 occasion to see them was on TV.

8 Q. Sir, are you saying to me that you never saw combatants while you

9 were at the front line, no matter who they were? You were frightened of

10 being killed?

11 A. Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

12 Q. Thank you for this answer.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

14 return to the incidents mentioned by this witness. I would like to have a

15 specific answer to something, and I'm thinking about the mortar shelling.

16 Q. You said that you saw soldiers who were drunk and who were firing,

17 who were firing a mortar or mortars in this area that you marked on a

18 photograph. And the photograph is P3252, and you identified it yourself.

19 Now, as I'm referring to this photograph, I would like to ask you the

20 following question: Firstly, could you tell us the name of the street

21 which is located --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could again from

23 the photograph on the -- put the photograph on the ELMO, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please finish your question, because you

25 started a question without finishing it.

Page 2067












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Page 2068

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put on the microphone.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President. I

4 would like to -- if it is possible to have first -- that's what I was

5 waiting for, for the photograph to be put on the ELMO, and that was not

6 appearing on the screens, so that I could ask the question and then refer

7 to the photograph.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear you finish your question, but ...

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I want to finish my question

10 with the photo on the screen. The photo is on the screen, but I don't see

11 it on my screen. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I apologise. Thank you so much.

12 Q. Sir, so we are looking at the street at the back, the back of the

13 photograph. Could you tell us what the name of the street is? Yes or no?

14 A. Yes, I can. It is Radnicka Street.

15 Q. What is the name?

16 A. Radnicka Street.

17 Q. Thank you. What is the item -- or what is the view that we have

18 from the circle that you have marked on the other side, on the right-hand

19 side of the photograph, more specifically, on the other side of the

20 street?

21 A. You mean the circle marked on the photograph?

22 Q. From the circle, from the circle that's marked on the

23 photograph - and we're looking on the right-hand side of the photograph,

24 so on the other side of the street - in which direction are we looking?

25 If you can indicate it for me, and if you can't, then could you please say

Page 2069

1 so.

2 A. I am sorry. I don't understand the question at all.

3 Q. I'm going to rephrase the question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... more clear. Do

5 you expect an answer like north, west, south, east, or city or hills or --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is

7 impossible for me to determine north, south, east, or west. What I would

8 like to know is the direction of firing, since we were told that there

9 were mortars located there. So I would like to -- this is the answer that

10 I want to get out of this witness. So we're looking -- we don't even know

11 where the mortars were firing at.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please answer the question, Mr. D.

13 A. The mortars were located in such a way that the mortars were fired

14 from the south to the north. The shells were fired from ...

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. If you say "from the south to the north," what was the target?

17 A. You mean what the shells were targeting?

18 Q. Yes, absolutely.

19 A. The city was targeted.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, the question follows, sir: You, as a lawyer, as

21 a graduate of law, for what reason, after you have seen this people who

22 were drunk operating a mortar, why didn't you inform your superiors of

23 this?

24 A. Considering my ethnicity, I would absolutely not dare do such a

25 thing. If I was a Serbian, of Serbian ethnicity, this would have had no

Page 2070

1 effect whatsoever.

2 Q. Thank you so much. Sir, the last question: You said that you

3 were given an order to fire, and I believe that this is what the English

4 text says, at anything that moved. Did you at the time protest to your

5 superiors about this order?

6 A. No, I did not, and none of my colleagues did either.

7 Q. Last -- honestly, last question: You said, sir, line 17, page

8 1890, that there were camps of forced labour that inhabitants of the city

9 could be taken to. At the time, did you yourself see one or several of

10 these camps?

11 A. I did not see these camps. I heard about these camps from the

12 testimonies of people who were in those camps.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. No more questions,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 Before giving the opportunity to the Prosecution to re-examine the

17 witness, I just first want to know whether one of my colleagues has any

18 additional questions.

19 Yes, please, Judge Elmahdi.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that you never

22 reported to your superiors once you finished your daily shift or a shift

23 of several days. The ammunition that was given to you, was it not checked

24 out? That is to say, did they not know that you used some ammunition if

25 you fired, or wasn't that the case?

Page 2071

1 A. They were able to hear it and they were able to know about it,

2 because when we ran out of ammunition, we would ask for fresh ammunition

3 to be given us.

4 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Without asking what you shot at?

5 A. They didn't ask, no.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have some additional questions as well, Mr. D. I

7 think you told us - when I'm not correct, please tell me - that you knew

8 about three civilians killed by snipers, I think you said. These three,

9 these casualties, you knew them personally, or is this the information

10 you've got about all the casualties among civilians caused by sniping

11 fire?

12 A. Two of the civilians I knew personally, whereas the third civilian

13 was the mother of an acquaintance of mine, but I never actually met her.

14 I didn't know her personally.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know of any number of casualties among

16 civilians other than from these three, other than these three?

17 A. There were more, but I couldn't give you an exact figure. I don't

18 know.

19 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is whether you know anything about

20 civilians on a regular basis being targeted by sniping fire, civilians

21 living on your side of the front line.

22 A. Yes. There was shooting often.

23 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is the following: You testified

24 that you never reported any irregularities, if you noticed them,

25 irregularities in the sense that colleagues of yours would behave against

Page 2072

1 the laws of the war. My first question is: Did you ever notice such

2 irregularities? I clarify myself. "Not reporting" can mean two things:

3 you didn't notice them or you noticed them but you did not report them.

4 Could you please clarify your answer that you gave before.

5 A. First let me say that I did see many irregularities, and I can

6 bear that out by giving -- quoting concrete examples. In one particular

7 situation, when civilians were being evicted from Grbavica, I talked to

8 one of my fellow platoon members as to what was going on, and he agreed to

9 go to the headquarters of the military police to ask for an explanation

10 why this was being done, but he didn't receive an answer.

11 On another occasion, I went to the military police to seek

12 protection for a civilian in the building where I lived, and they were

13 going to take him away sometime towards evening. Anyway, I went there and

14 found a military policeman on duty and told him what I was about, and he

15 asked me who the person in question was, who the man was, and I said it

16 was a Muslim. And he just waved his hand, waved it aside. But I didn't

17 inform my commanders or the military or civilian police about any other

18 irregularities. It did no good.

19 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is: Do you have knowledge of the

20 laws of the war, and in what detail, if you have any knowledge of it?

21 A. I do not have any detailed knowledge.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. My next question is: You have

23 been -- you have testified that on - I just have to find the name of the

24 street again - on Ozrenska Street you had all different kinds of weaponry

25 with you, and among this weaponry, for example, rocket launchers. You

Page 2073

1 told us that you fired, at least your platoon fired, with this weaponry.

2 Could you tell us what the targets were and at what situations you would

3 fire this weaponry. You mentioned a couple of different weapons.

4 A. This type of weaponry, the Zolja type of hand-held rocket

5 launcher, I never had occasion to use. My colleagues used it to target

6 the houses which were below us when they suspected that there was somebody

7 there.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just add a question: "Houses when someone was

9 there," do you mean that there was any military presence or that the mere

10 presence of even civilians would be sufficient?

11 A. Anybody's presence would be sufficient to warrant this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And houses at approximately what distance?

13 A. They weren't far.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So you mean near to the front line?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers.

17 Is there any need for re-examining the witness? Please,

18 Mr. Ierace, proceed. We'll stop at 1.00, so if by working very

19 efficiently it could be achieved by then, it would be fine; if not, we'll

20 see.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

22 Further examination by Mr. Ierace:

23 Q. Sir, you've been asked a number of questions by both the Defence

24 and Their Honours as to why it was that you did not complain about

25 irregularities. You've given evidence that you were present when

Page 2074












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Page 2075

1 civilians on the other side of the confrontation line were, in your

2 opinion, deliberately shot. You've given evidence that, as I understand

3 it, that on all of those occasions, the civilians were shot by members of

4 the sniping unit. Firstly, am I correct in that summary of your evidence

5 so far?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. Mr. President, I

7 have an objection to make. I think it was stated in the text that

8 instructions, orders were given to fire at and so on. I don't think that

9 the witness said that they themselves shot. So could Mr. Ierace quote

10 with greater precision.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I asked that question in leading form

12 because I assumed that it covered territory that was not disputed.

13 Clearly, it is disputed, so I will do it the long way.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do it the short long way, please, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will.

16 Q. In relation to your time in Ozrenska Street, did any member of

17 your platoon take up a position inside the two-storey house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You've told us -- I withdraw that. On the occasions -- on any of

20 the occasions that you observed civilians -- I see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin

21 is on his feet again.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. He is down again, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: I venture to stand up.

24 Q. On any of the occasions that you've so far told us about where you

25 observed civilians on the other side of the confrontation line being shot

Page 2076

1 or shot at from individuals on your side of the confrontation line, were

2 any members of your platoon responsible for the shooting?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise,

4 but I think that Mr. Ierace could tell us what statement by the witness he

5 is referring to exactly. Thank you in advance.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think he's referring to any statement, but he

7 is putting an initial question. "On any of the occasions that you've so

8 far told us about where you observed civilians," so this is referring to

9 many occasions, and I do remember that on several occasion the witness

10 did. So the objection is denied.

11 Perhaps you would please repeat the question to the witness,

12 Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President.

14 Q. Sir, on any of the occasions that you have so far told us about

15 where you observed civilians on the other side of the confrontation line

16 being shot or shot at from individuals on your side of the confrontation

17 line, were any members of your platoon responsible for the shooting?

18 A. They shot at the two skyscrapers that were underneath us with the

19 weapons that they had, but they were not able to reach the intersections

20 and containers that I mentioned a moment ago. Those were places that were

21 sniped and machine-gunned with the M-84 type of weapon with a larger

22 range.

23 Q. You've told us that the orders that you and other members of your

24 platoon received were, in effect, to shoot at anything that moved. Did

25 you observe any apparent conflict between those orders and this behaviour

Page 2077

1 by other members of your platoon?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. In relation to the targeting of civilians by members of the

4 sniping unit, you told us that they received their orders at a battalion

5 level. Did you have any reason to doubt that their behaviour in targeting

6 civilians was inconsistent with the orders they had received?

7 A. I don't think so. I don't think I ever noticed that. I wasn't in

8 a position to notice anything of that kind.

9 Q. In responding to questions asked by Mr. President as to why you

10 had not complained of irregularities, you referred to the fruitless

11 outcome of complaints arising from behaviour outside the platoon, if I can

12 put it that way. Did you have any expectation that if you had complained

13 of the targeting of civilians, that such a complaint would be welcomed or

14 properly acted upon?

15 A. No. Nobody would have done anything at all, taken any positive

16 action. I'm quite certain of that, and that's why I didn't complain.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we are not very flexible today since

18 appointments have been made after 1.00. Would it be possible to finish in

19 one minute or do you think -- otherwise, we would have to recall the

20 witness, and would you please consider whether this is really necessary.

21 MR. IERACE: Would it be -- Mr. President, I'm also conscious of

22 the fact that we have to formally tender the exhibits.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think -- I would suggest to you that we

24 would do that first thing tomorrow morning.

25 MR. IERACE: In that case, Mr. President, could you allow me, say,

Page 2078

1 two or three minutes and --

2 JUDGE ORIE: I have to look at -- because appointments have been

3 outside the courtroom, outside the detention facilities, for the accused.

4 So would you please then really as quickly as possible.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will.

6 Q. You were asked questions, sir, about the firing of weaponry from

7 Ozrenska Street. Earlier you gave evidence that there were tanks and an

8 APC at Ozrenska Street. Did you ever see either of that type of weaponry

9 fired?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. You were asked about the position of the confrontation lines at

12 Ozrenska Street between June 1992 and May of 1993. Are you aware as to

13 whether there were any offensives along the Ozrenska Street front lines by

14 either side?

15 A. Yes, there were.

16 Q. Was there any change in the confrontation lines at Ozrenska Street

17 during the period that you were a platoon member, although not necessarily

18 when you were stationed at Ozrenska Street?

19 A. Yes, there were some slight changes.

20 Q. And finally, you've said that food was distributed from a house at

21 Ozrenska Street. Do you know where the food was cooked?

22 A. As far as I know, it was in a barracks in Lukavica.

23 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President, thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I have a very practical solution. We know

25 why we stop at 1.00. Perhaps if this would be possible to continue for

Page 2079

1 three, up to five minutes with all the technicalities and allow the

2 accused to leave the courtroom. If that is okay as far as the Defence is

3 concerned -- yes?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You know the reasons why, and I'm very concerned that

6 the appointment would -- so --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm touched, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: General Galic, so we'll continue for five minutes

9 with technicalities, and you'll be brought to your appointment, and I hope

10 it will not -- the outcome will not disappoint you.

11 [The accused withdrew]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think since there are no further questions for the

13 witness, that the witness may leave the courtroom. I saw that he was

14 raising his hand, so if there's any -- well, your examination has been

15 finished by now, Mr. D. If there is anything you'd like to add, if it

16 does not go to the substance of what has been discussed here, please tell

17 me.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should just like to stress once

19 again that during this trial I have spoken the truth --


21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and in speaking the truth, I --

22 and in testifying, I did not wish to say anything against people of other

23 ethnic groups to which I do not belong. I just testified on the basis of

24 everything that I have seen. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. D, in the absence of the accused, I would not

Page 2080

1 like to touch upon whatever issue which to the substance of the case. I

2 think until now we did not. Of course we do understand that you were

3 strictly observing the solemn declaration you made at the beginning.

4 This is the end of your examination. I'd like to thank you for

5 having come --

6 [The Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'd like to thank you for coming that far away and

8 informing this Chamber about what you know on those subjects you have been

9 examined about.

10 Before leaving the courtroom, I think that we have to -- well,

11 either we wait or we have to do the curtains down. So if you -- I think

12 that -- there is no one on the right-hand side, so -- especially the other

13 side is important, but ...

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm afraid we'll have to wait until the

16 curtains are up again. It takes a bit more than five minutes, but ...

17 I think once one curtain is up, it's public again. So I'd like to

18 continue. No, please continue, but there was no reason for me to stop any

19 more.

20 I think that all the exhibits -- all the documents tendered into

21 evidence, if admitted, it will be admitted under seal because the name of

22 the witness is on, I would say, yes, all the documents. So we have P3637,

23 a set of five maps premarked, and the same set of maps, 3637D, with

24 additional markings made during examination-in-chief and

25 cross-examination. No objections, so that's admitted.

Page 2081

1 Then we have P289, military booklet and additional leaflets. In

2 relation to that?

3 MR. IERACE: In relation to that, Mr. President, there is an

4 English translation that is part of the exhibit list, and I think the

5 Trial Chamber would be assisted by that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So that would be P289.1. Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's admitted as well. Then we have photographs

9 shown to the witness. Although there have been five photographs

10 circulating, only three have been used. That's P3251, P3252, and P3253.

11 That's admitted in evidence as well.

12 Then, finally, we have a manual on weaponry. That's P3638, and

13 that's also admitted into evidence.

14 I just received a copy of a letter concerning Witness L. May I

15 assume that there's no specific reason to -- that it was given to us right

16 now? Does it need any further discussion or --

17 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. That's the letter that was faxed

18 to the Defence late last night from the Prosecution. It informs the

19 Defence of forthcoming exhibits and evidence. The Defence and I have

20 arranged a meeting at 2.00 this afternoon. It is simply a copy for Your

21 Honours. It was handed over at the beginning of the trial this morning.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. So if there's no other

23 issues to be discussed at this moment, we'll adjourn until tomorrow

24 morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.10 p.m.,

Page 2082

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day

2 of January, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.