Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2402

1 Monday, 28 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Unless there is anything else to be discussed at this moment, I

10 think that we continue the examination-in-chief of Witness G.

11 Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

13 Defence would like to inform the Chamber that last night, at 10.00 p.m.,

14 we received a new schedule, a new order of witnesses, and this new order

15 was given to the Defence counsel, in fact, on Thursday, but we're not

16 quite sure as to the times on the list. I don't know whether we can

17 discuss that matter now or perhaps during the break with my colleagues

18 across the well.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I prefer that you discuss it first with your

20 colleagues and see whether you can come to a common understanding of the

21 time issue. If not, of course, we would like to be informed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And one

23 more point, a piece of information for the Trial Chamber. The Defence has

24 in its possession a statement of Witness G in B/C/S, dated the 31st of

25 August, 2002 [as interpreted], and I informed Ms. Edel on Saturday that we

Page 2403

1 don't actually have a translation of that witness statement. Today I have

2 learnt that my learned colleagues do not, in fact, have a translation of

3 the statement. But regardless of the circumstances under which the

4 Defence is having to work, I will agree to go forward with the

5 cross-examination of this witness today, regardless of the fact that I

6 have not, in fact, received a copy of her statement in B/C/S [as

7 interpreted]. But I should like to ask my colleagues to take care of

8 matters of that kind in the future and to try and supply the Defence with

9 the necessary documents, because we are now having witnesses in

10 cross-examination every day. I haven't got a statement, a translation of

11 the statement, for Witness L either, and I hope to have it in the course

12 of the day. But I should just like to say, Your Honours, that that does

13 make the work of the Defence counsel rather difficult. It is working

14 under extra strenuous conditions with respect to being supplied with the

15 necessary documents. That's what I wanted to say for the moment.

16 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity, with your

17 permission, to inform you that the Defence does have a legal advisor who

18 speaks English, but we are unable to bring him into the courtroom because

19 it is the viewpoint of the Registry that legal advisors cannot sit in the

20 courtroom, regardless of the fact that we have said that we will not bill

21 them for the work of the legal advisor, for his work in court, in the

22 courtroom. His name is Vladimir Rajic. But we have not had a final

23 response as to whether Mr. Rajic can be with us in the courtroom. We

24 should like to stress that this would help us a great deal, because in my

25 locker I found two written submissions from my colleagues, two documents.

Page 2404

1 I'm afraid I can't discuss them because I haven't had a chance to examine

2 them. So I should like to ask the Trial Chamber to help us, to assist us

3 and perhaps to suggest that our legal advisor can be with us in the

4 courtroom. Let me say once again, we won't be asking him to be paid for

5 the time he spends in the courtroom sitting here with us. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Any observations from the Prosecution on the issues?

7 Let me first just comment myself briefly on the non-availability

8 of an English translation of the B/C/S statement of Witness G. I do

9 understand that all the members of the Defence team and Mr. Galic himself

10 can read B/C/S, so I think the major problem would be with the

11 Prosecution. On the other hand, if the Prosecution is using an English

12 translation, of course it's good to have the English translation also

13 available to the Defence so that whatever misunderstandings might arise as

14 far as the understanding of the statement, translation of the statement is

15 concerned, could be easier solved. So to that extent do I agree that the

16 Defence -- there is an interest for the Defence to have an English

17 translation.

18 Any observations as far as the other points are concerned, or even

19 on this point, Mr. Ierace?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the translation of my learned friend's

21 comments was to the effect that the statement in question was dated August

22 2002. That's obviously incorrect. I wonder if my friend could clarify

23 the date of the statement for which she does not have a translation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Indicated to us, the 31st of August. But of course,

25 it must be another year than 2002.

Page 2405

1 MR. IERACE: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 2001, yes. 2001, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... I mean this

5 could have been easily solved.

6 Yes, any other?

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, even so, I'm not aware of an August

8 statement in relation to Witness G. I wonder if my friend means the

9 statement dated the 22nd of June, 2001.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify this among each other,

11 whether there is a translation and whether it could be made available to

12 the Defence. I think that's what it's all about.

13 On the presence of a legal advisor, does the Prosecution have any

14 observation as far as that is concerned or we should just leave it to the

15 Registry and the Bench?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is no objection to that course

17 on the part of the Prosecution, but I understand there could be concerns

18 having regard to the practice of the Registry. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, the Chamber will also pay attention to the issue

21 you raised about the presence of your legal advisor in the courtroom. I'm

22 not saying what, but it'll pay proper attention to what you've said to

23 us.

24 I think we then can proceed with the examination-in-chief of

25 Witness G. Just for all the parties, I do understand that the video

Page 2406

1 pictures are sent to the outside world. But in this courtroom, there's no

2 possibility of putting down the curtains, so that means that the live

3 presence of audience in the public gallery is not possible. I just want

4 to make this clear also for the record what the situation in this

5 courtroom is.

6 Mr. Usher, would you then please bring -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, yesterday I viewed the redacted

8 version of the video, and it's ready to be shown.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. I'm glad to hear so.

10 While waiting, Mr. Ierace, could you also inform us about the time

11 schedule? I mean, we have the order now which the witnesses will be

12 called. But you were talking about some problems as far as the Victims

13 and Witness Unit was concerned. So where would you expect that we will

14 fall short of witnesses?

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, even though I anticipate that during

16 the course of this week, we will call virtually as many witnesses as we

17 have called in the trial to date, I still anticipate that there may well

18 be an absence of witnesses tomorrow afternoon and Thursday afternoon. I'm

19 not able to fill those gaps. And that assumes, of course, the witnesses

20 do move as quickly as I anticipate. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. I may ask your specific intention

22 for that. You know that courtroom costs, as far as I'm informed, are

23 $10.000 a day. Of course, we could use our facilities as good as we can,

24 apart from the legal aspect that we should not have any more delays than

25 strictly necessary.

Page 2407

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. G, please be seated. May I remind

3 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you made last

4 Friday. You are now in a different courtroom, but same Prosecution team

5 will continue your examination as a witness.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

11 Q. Sir, on Friday afternoon, you showed us the entry point of the

12 bullet on your body, and the exit point. And you also explained how you

13 were taken by members of your family from the scene where you were shot.

14 Were you taken to hospital?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What period of time did you receive treatment in hospital?

17 A. A month.

18 Q. When you were discharged from the hospital, were you given any

19 paperwork from the hospital?

20 A. Yes, I did. I got a discharge letter.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown

22 Exhibit 13 -- three sheets of paper, commencing 1327 and 1328 and 1327.1,

23 and 1328.1.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, would you hand out the documents

25 to the witness.

Page 2408


2 Q. Mr. G, would you please go to the second sheet. I think it has

3 the numbers P1328 written in the top right-hand corner.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recognise anywhere on that sheet your signature?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is there, alongside your signature, a date?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is the date?

10 A. The 11th of November, 1995.

11 Q. Would you tell us briefly what the document is.

12 A. It is a letter of discharge, that is to say, the document I was

13 given when I was released from hospital.

14 Q. All right. Now, will you please turn to the first page, and I

15 think it has written in the top right-hand corner the numbers P1327.

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Does that appear to be another photocopy of a document but without

18 certain signatures down the bottom?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I think also without the date handwritten down the bottom.

21 A. No.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't seek to have that document

23 placed on the ELMO because the witness's name appears at various places on

24 it. I do seek, in due course, to tender that document, together with an

25 English translation which accompanies it. Perhaps that might be returned.

Page 2409

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think everyone has a copy of the document in

2 front of him, so we can proceed.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this would be a convenient time for

4 the witness to view the redacted video.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, with the assistance of the technicians.

6 Is the video of the witness in the right mode, I would say?

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.


9 [Videotape played]:

10 INVESTIGATOR: [Inaudible] ... where you were at the time you

11 were shot, as to the best of your recollection?

12 WITNESS B: [Indicates]

13 INVESTIGATOR: And if you can please adopt the same position

14 in the direction where you were facing at the time you were

15 shot, as to the best of your recollection.

16 WITNESS B: [Indicates]

17 INVESTIGATOR: And please point in the general direction from

18 which you heard shooting at the time you were shot, as to the

19 best of your recollection.

20 WITNESS B: [Indicates]


22 Q. Sir, did you recognise yourself on that video?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you, at the time, [redacted]

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 2410

1 Q. And did the events recorded on the video occur in September of

2 last year?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you were asked to do certain things by an investigator. Did

5 you comply with those directions truthfully and to the best of your

6 recollection?

7 A. Yes, I did. I told the gentleman what I was able to remember and

8 as it happened.

9 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence on Friday, was the

10 vegetable garden in the area where you were standing as seen on the video?

11 A. Yes. That whole side had been sown with vegetable seeds.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I wish the witness to

13 view the 360-degree electronically joined photograph. Thank you.

14 I ask that the photograph be moved slowly 360 degrees. Pause

15 there, please.

16 Q. Sir, are you able to tell us what the buildings are which appear

17 in the image at the moment?

18 MR. IERACE: And for the benefit of the transcript, the buildings

19 appear to be at the top of a slope and are coloured a reddish-brown.

20 A. Yes, I am. It was [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2411

1 [redacted]

2 MR. IERACE: Please continue to move the image to the left. Pause

3 there, please.

4 Q. Could you describe to the --

5 MR. IERACE: I withdraw that. For the benefit of the transcript,

6 the image which appears on the screen at the moment appears to be a slope,

7 sloping downwards from right to left. There appears to be in the

8 mid-ground a hill or ridge which is browner in colour than the foreground,

9 which is green. And then in the background there appears to be further

10 ridges which are darker in colour. There appear to be some buildings on

11 the ridge in the mid-ground.

12 Q. Sir, could you tell us the name, if any, by which the various

13 buildings are known which appear on the image at the moment.

14 A. Yes. During the war, as these were all [redacted] we know

15 whose houses they were. But one house in particular was referred to as

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2412

1 [redacted]

2 Q. Could you tell us what direction, approximately, the camera is

3 facing at the moment? That is, is it north, south, east, or west?

4 A. This is rather facing the north, north/north-east, perhaps a

5 little further towards north.

6 Q. Now, on that image, that same image which is on the screen at the

7 moment, [redacted]

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. As I indicated earlier, the foreground appears to be green. That

10 is grass. And then beyond that there appears to be a browner vegetation.

11 Having regard to that and the trees and other items which appear on the

12 image, [redacted]

13 (redacted)

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, while questioning, you're referring to

17 all kind of information which would easily identify the witness, since

18 most people know about property, neighbours, et cetera. So I would ask

19 you, in order to avoid any further redactions, to be very careful in that

20 respect.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. It's a difficult line to draw.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or if you really think it would be necessary,

23 then to go into private session. That's, of course, another option. But

24 I leave it up to you whether you think you can manage without. Of course,

25 the public character of the hearing is of great importance to the Court.

Page 2413

1 If it's necessary, of course, we can go into private session.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be appropriate to err on the

3 side of caution. With that in mind, I do seek that we go into private

4 session. And also that the questions this morning so far asked and the

5 answers given be retrospectively treated as being given in closed

6 session -- in private session; that is, there be a non-publication order

7 on them. I do that with some hesitation, because I don't wish to

8 unnecessarily

9 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you think we can change again to a different

10 type. And I'll not follow your request, because I signed already a couple

11 of redaction orders, so they are not going to change this again. And

12 think, when private session starts.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2414












12 Pages 2414-2485 redacted, private session.














Page 2486

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll then adjourn until 2.30 p.m.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.



















Page 2487

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. We finished this morning

3 in private session. As far as I can see, there's no reason to continue

4 that, so we'll be in open session now again.

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Ierace, I think you'd like to call your

7 first -- next witness. It will be --

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Daryl Mundis will take the next

9 witness, Witness K.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the

11 witness.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'll call you Mrs. K, since protective measures have

16 been granted on the request of the Prosecution in respect of you. So

17 that's how I will call you, how all the parties will call you. The Rules

18 require you to make a solemn statement, and the text of it will be handed

19 out to you by the usher. Would you please make that statement.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated. You're called as a

25 witness by the Prosecution, so it is Mr. Mundis from the Prosecution who

Page 2488

1 will examine you first.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 I would ask the usher to please show the witness Prosecution

5 Exhibit P3649.

6 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

7 Q. Witness, without saying anything out loud, please, can you read

8 what's on that sheet. Is your name listed on document P3649?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is your correct date of birth also listed on that document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, I would ask if the usher could please provide you with a

13 blue pen, if you would please write your father's name on that document

14 with a blue pen, please.

15 A. [Witness complies]

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness. Mr. Usher, if you would show

17 that document to the Defence and then return it to the witness, please.

18 Mr. President, we'd ask that this document be admitted into

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE ORIE: It will be admitted into evidence, sealed, and it has

21 Exhibit number P3649.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness K, can you please tell the Trial Chamber the city where

24 you were living when the war broke out in Bosnia in 1992, please.

25 A. Sarajevo.

Page 2489

1 Q. And until the completion or the conclusion of the war, did you

2 live in Sarajevo throughout the duration of the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the course of the war, did you have the occasion to visit

5 your parents' home?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Approximately how frequently did you do so?

8 A. At least once a week.

9 Q. And where -- what locality did your parents live in?

10 A. Kobilja Glava.

11 Q. Can you describe very briefly for the Trial Chamber what that area

12 consists of? Is it urban or rural? What type of area is that where your

13 parents live?

14 A. It's a suburb.

15 Q. Witness, let me draw your attention to the month of June 1993.

16 During the course of that month, did you visit your parents?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall whether or not you visited your parents on the 25th

19 of June, 1993?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall approximately what time on that day you arrived at

22 your parents' house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What time was that, Witness K?

25 A. Ten minutes to 2.00.

Page 2490

1 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like on that day?

2 A. Yes. Sunny.

3 Q. Upon arriving at your parents' house, what did you do? Where did

4 you go?

5 A. I went to call my father to have a cup of coffee.

6 Q. Was your father in the house when you arrived, or was he somewhere

7 else?

8 A. He was in the garden.

9 Q. And when you called for your father that afternoon, did he respond

10 to you at all?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What did you do then?

13 A. I went to look for him.

14 Q. Did you hear any unusual noises as you were looking for your

15 father?

16 A. Then, no.

17 Q. Did you, in fact, see your father on that afternoon?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what you saw when

20 you went looking for your father that afternoon, please.

21 A. I saw my father lying immobile, and I thought he was dead.

22 Q. Witness K, do you remember if he was lying on his back or on his

23 stomach?

24 A. On his back.

25 Q. When you approached your father, did you say anything to him?

Page 2491

1 A. He said something to me.

2 Q. What did he say to you?

3 A. "Careful, there's shooting." And, "I have been shot."

4 Q. What did you do after your father said that to you?

5 A. I went back into the house to get help.

6 Q. Was there anyone in the house who was available to help you?

7 A. My mother and their neighbour.

8 Q. Did you then go with your mother and/or your neighbour to assist

9 your father?

10 A. All three of us went, but my mother went back.

11 Q. Why did your mother go back?

12 A. I told her to go back to look for a car with which to transport

13 him to hospital in.

14 Q. Now, at the time that your neighbour and you went to assist your

15 father, did you hear any unusual noises as you were returning to your

16 father?

17 A. While we were going up to him, no.

18 Q. When you approached your father, what did you do?

19 A. We took hold of his legs and here, under his armpits, and carried

20 him off.

21 Q. Now, Witness K, approximately how far from your father's house was

22 he lying when you first saw him?

23 A. 50 to a hundred metres.

24 Q. And with the assistance of your neighbour, your parents'

25 neighbour, you were going to attempt to carry your father back up to the

Page 2492

1 house. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what happened as the two

4 of you began carrying your father back to the house?

5 A. The shooting started. They started shooting at us.

6 Q. Do you recall approximately how many shots were fired?

7 A. 10, 15. I've forgotten. I really can't say exactly.

8 Q. Were the shots fired in rapid succession as if with a machine-gun,

9 or were they single shots?

10 A. Single shots.

11 Q. What would you and the neighbour do when you heard the gunshots?

12 A. All three of us would throw ourselves down onto the ground; the

13 neighbour, my father, and myself.

14 Q. As you and the neighbour were carrying your father back to the

15 house, approximately how many times, if you remember, did you jump to the

16 ground or fall to the ground to avoid being shot?

17 A. Four to five times.

18 Q. When you were lying on the ground, did the gunfire continue?

19 A. While we were lying down, it would stop. As soon as we got up, it

20 started again.

21 Q. Witness K, do you have any idea from what location the gunfire

22 shots were coming from?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber, please.

25 A. The place is called Orahov Brijeg.

Page 2493

1 Q. Do you know in which direction Orahov Brijeg is located in

2 relation to your father's house?

3 A. I don't understand.

4 Q. Orahov Brijeg is located in which direction from your father's

5 house? To the north, to the south, to the east, or to the west?

6 A. Opposite. You can see it.

7 Q. Witness K, do you have any idea where, as you and the neighbour

8 and your father were lying on the ground, how close the gunfire was coming

9 to you?

10 A. The bullets were falling around our feet.

11 Q. And how do you know that, Witness K?

12 A. I could feel it. I could see it.

13 Q. And as soon as you and the neighbour would rise to carry your

14 father, the gunshots would continue; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Witness K, you lived in Sarajevo during the duration of the war.

17 During that time, were you familiar with other incidents involving snipers

18 in your neighbourhood?

19 A. Oh, yes. There were places in town which we knew were being

20 targeted by snipers all the time.

21 Q. Prior to that day at your parents' house, had you heard snipers'

22 gunfire before?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did the type of gunfire that you heard on that afternoon sound

25 like the type of gunfire you had heard in Sarajevo?

Page 2494

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness, approximately how long did it take you and the neighbour

3 to carry your father from the location where you found him back to his

4 house?

5 A. Fifteen, twenty minutes.

6 Q. To travel approximately 50 to 100 yards?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe your feelings for the Trial Chamber during that

9 time period.

10 A. Yes. The important thing was to save my father's life. I wasn't

11 important. I had already lost my husband, and I wanted to save my father.

12 Q. Witness, do you recall the clothing that your father was wearing

13 on that day?

14 A. Yes. He was wearing a pair of shorts and nothing on top.

15 Q. And what kind of clothing were you wearing that day?

16 A. I was wearing jeans and a shirt, T-shirt.

17 Q. Do you recall what type of clothing the neighbour who was

18 assisting you was wearing that day?

19 A. I think he was wearing jeans.

20 MR. MUNDIS: One moment, please.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would just have one additional

23 request. If this witness -- if P3649 could be returned to the witness, I

24 would ask that she write the name of the neighbour on that document, and

25 perhaps indicate by placing an "X" next to the name of the neighbour to

Page 2495

1 distinguish that from the name of her father.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, it's, of course, not common to make any

3 changes in documents that have already been admitted into evidence,

4 but ...

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, alternatively, we can provide a blank

7 piece of paper for the witness to do that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I think that would be preferable, because I want to

9 avoid any changes made in documents already admitted.


11 Q. Witness K, if you could just write the name of your parents'

12 neighbour who assisted you on that day on that sheet of paper, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a blue pen at this moment? Yes, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if the usher could show that to the

16 Defence, please, and then we would ask that that be admitted into evidence

17 as P3649A.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although usually we're taking admissions at the

19 end, I think we could do this now right away, since the other exhibit has

20 been admitted as well.

21 Mr. Usher, would you then, please, give it to the registrar. The

22 document is then admitted into evidence. And the Registrar has got the

23 number - yes, under seal - and it has number P3649A, as far as I see.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no

Page 2496

1 further questions for this witness at this time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine

3 the witness?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness K, questions will now be put to you by

6 Defence counsel of Mr. Galic.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. K, good afternoon.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Could you tell us if you gave a statement to the investigators of

11 the OTP and when that was?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us when?

14 A. I do not understand the question.

15 Q. Could you tell us when that was?

16 A. The first time?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. In 1995.

19 Q. Did you sign that statement as your own?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. With that signature, you confirm that everything that you said was

22 true, and you confirmed that to the investigators of the Prosecutor's

23 office?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Today, the question asked by my learned colleague, you said that

Page 2497

1 you lived in Sarajevo. Which part of the city did you live in?

2 A. For a while, I lived in the area of Otoka [phoen], which belongs

3 to Novi Grad, and then in the area of Ali Pasina Polje, which also belongs

4 to Novi Grad.

5 Q. When you came to visit your parents, which road did you take to

6 get to their house?

7 A. These were side roads. It was via a settlement of Butuk -- Botok

8 Busca [phoen] and Kobilja Glava.

9 Q. When you said "side road," what do you mean?

10 A. It's a road which was a little out of the way, hidden, which was

11 safer, safer from the point of view of combat operations.

12 Q. Was there another road that you could have taken to get to your

13 parents' house?

14 A. Yes. There was a road, but it was more dangerous.

15 Q. When you say "more dangerous," what do you mean?

16 A. It was visible from the Serb positions, and it was possible to get

17 killed.

18 Q. When you say "combat operations," what do you mean by that?

19 A. I mean sniping and any other firing.

20 Q. In the part of town that you lived in, you said that there had

21 been snipers there.

22 A. There were snipers in all parts of town.

23 Q. Thank you. When you came to your parents' house, who did you find

24 in the house?

25 A. My mother.

Page 2498

1 Q. Apart from your mother, was there someone else in the house?

2 A. At that time, no.

3 Q. You said that you were going to call your father for a cup of

4 coffee.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you find him or see him?

7 A. Not immediately.

8 Q. When did you see him?

9 A. When I went to look for him.

10 Q. When you found your father, who was with you? Were you alone, or

11 was there someone else with you?

12 A. I was alone.

13 Q. What happened, then, when you saw him?

14 A. I approached my father. I ran up to him to see if he was still

15 alive because he looked as if he was dead.

16 Q. Did you then ask for help from someone?

17 A. When I saw that he was wounded and when he said that he was

18 wounded and that I should take care, be careful, because there was

19 shooting, I then returned to look for help.

20 Q. So you returned to your father again. Who did you return with?

21 A. I returned to my father with the neighbour, and I told my mother

22 to go back into the house.

23 Q. So your mother was not present -- she was not there when you and

24 the neighbour approached him?

25 A. No, she was not there. I told her to go back into the house.

Page 2499

1 Q. From the moment when you set off towards your father with the

2 neighbour, did your mother start off with you as well?

3 A. My mother started off with us, and then I told her to go back into

4 the house.

5 Q. Was there firing at the time?

6 A. At that time, no.

7 Q. When you approached your father, you said that there was firing.

8 A. At that very moment, no.

9 Q. Could you tell us when there was firing?

10 A. When we started to carry my father.

11 Q. Who carried your father?

12 A. The neighbour and myself.

13 Q. Did either one of you, I mean you or your mother or the neighbour,

14 were any of you injured or were you hit by a bullet, any of you?

15 A. No.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has the

17 statement that the Prosecutor's office gave to the Defence, and that is

18 the statement of the mother of the witness. And if you'll allow it,

19 regarding the circumstances, I would like to tender the statement of the

20 mother of the witness in respect of the authenticity of what the witness

21 has just told us.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would object, Your Honour. It seems

24 to go beyond the scope or knowledge of this witness what another witness

25 would have said in a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. If the

Page 2500

1 Defence wants to hear from this other witness, they can simply call that

2 witness during their case.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you heard the objection.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but the Defence

5 believes that in order to check the credibility of the witness,

6 considering that the witness said that the mother was also present, we

7 believe that this part of the statement is important to be shown to the

8 witness. So Defence would then -- proposes to be tendered as exhibit of

9 the Defence in order to check the credibility of the witness. In any

10 case, if you will not allow it, then, in accordance with instructions, the

11 Defence will then call the witness to testify for the Defence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the previous statement of the mother

15 of the witness will not be admitted into evidence, so to that -- in that

16 respect, the objection is sustained. On the other hand, the Chamber has

17 tried to understand what the Defence's point is, and we would allow you if

18 you would confront the witness with the fact that there does exist a

19 previous statement. So that's not a matter of testing the credibility of

20 this witness, since if there's any contradiction between the previous

21 statement of the mother of the witness and the witness, admitting it into

22 evidence will not make sure who has given the correct answers to the

23 questions. So it's -- and since the Prosecution will not be in a position

24 to question the source of the previous statement.

25 But on the other hand, if you would confront the witness with

Page 2501

1 specific lines and then tell her that there is a statement to that effect,

2 whether this would change everything in her recollection or not ... I

3 think, in order to be very practical, that would be fair to the Defence,

4 we thought it would be fair to the Prosecution as well, and I see from the

5 nodding from Mr. Ierace that this is a procedure that is acceptable to the

6 Prosecution. So you could read just those lines relevant at this moment,

7 and then -- it's just a suggestion. Of course, you're entirely free to

8 act, as Defence counsel, how you think -- how you deem it good to do. It

9 might be a practical solution for the problem.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

11 you. If you'll allow me, on page 2 of the statement given by the

12 mother --

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... the Prosecution

14 was not prepared with the previous statement, so if you would just give

15 them an opportunity to find the statement.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd be grateful if my learned

17 colleague could indicate the ERN number of the statement.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have that?

19 MR. IERACE: I don't have a copy to hand, but we may be able to

20 bring it up on the computer if we could be allowed a minute.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any ERN number on it, Ms. Pilipovic?

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. For the B/C/S

23 version, 0096246, and the statement in English is 00361042.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it might be perhaps helpful if we

Page 2502

1 could just simply have the English version that Ms. Pilipovic has.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you be willing to just hand out for this

3 very moment the English version, since you're using the B/C/S version, I

4 assume.

5 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 Q. It's page 2, and I believe it is the same in the English version.

8 I will read just paragraph 5. So I'm not going to waste time and read the

9 entire part:

10 [As interpreted] "The shooting started." It's about the

11 neighbour. I'm not going to quote his name. "He was about ten metres

12 ahead of us. At the time, I had long hair, and a bullet took part of my

13 hair. Another bullet went through my daughter's lower part of the

14 tracksuit, and then the neighbour's also tracksuit was hit by a bullet."

15 And it is in this time that I wanted to ask the witness whether

16 what I have just read, or her statement today, after I asked her the

17 question whether anyone was hit by a bullet --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in the English version that we have,

20 it indicates that, "The second bullet went through my daughter's

21 sweatshirt." Perhaps there's a discrepancy between either the

22 interpretation or the B/C/S version that Defence counsel has. But rather

23 than where it says, "my daughter's lower part of the tracksuit," the

24 English version says, "through my daughter's sweatshirt."

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters were not provided with the

Page 2503

1 statement in English.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, in order to -- I don't know whether

3 this is of vital importance for you what part of clothing or that -- I

4 mean, if your question will concentrate on that issue, I would invite you

5 to just hand over the B/C/S copy for one second to the interpreters' booth

6 so this can be clarified. And if you say, "No, that's not the part on

7 which I'll be questioning," then we might just establish that there's a

8 small difference.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, my

10 question that I wanted to put to the witness: Whether there was a bullet

11 that went through the upper part of your clothing.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think, then, we really have to check this part

13 of the translation. Could you please provide for one second your B/C/S --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters be provided with the

15 English version of the statement.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think the original -- I think the original

17 in which the statement was taken must be B/C/S. So I would suggest that

18 the B/C/S version will be given to the translators, both just on this

19 aspect.

20 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, per the office of the Prosecution's

22 usual policy, the actual statement is in English which is then read back

23 to the witness in B/C/S. The witness then signs the English language

24 version, and the B/C/S version is a translation of that, simply to

25 highlight that. But we're certainly willing to make this English

Page 2504

1 version --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give both versions at this moment to

3 the translators' booth so that we can see where the problem is.

4 I am aware that it's almost overtime today for the translators.

5 May I first ask you whether you are able to locate the exact lines

6 that we are talking about. Could you please find the place where it

7 starts with a rather neutral line --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. It's the upper part of a tracksuit. So

9 it's a sweatshirt, "sweatshirt" in the original, and translated as "the

10 upper part of the tracksuit."

11 JUDGE ORIE: We are quoting, Ms. Pilipovic, the lower part of the

12 tracksuit. But do I understand that in both languages it's the upper

13 part?


15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, does this clarify at least the

16 clothing?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. What I had read

18 was the upper part of a tracksuit.

19 JUDGE ORIE: In the transcript, it says, "Another bullet went

20 through my daughter's lower part of tracksuit." Whether it's a mistake or

21 not, whether the transcript is correct or not, at least it's clear now

22 that we are talking about the upper part of a tracksuit.

23 Yes, please, then proceed. Perhaps could you please read the --

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that the witness knows exactly what you are

Page 2505

1 confronting her with.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. "At that time, I had long hair, and the bullet took a part of my

4 hair. Another bullet went through a sweatshirt, and my neighbour's

5 were -- his lower part of the tracksuit was hit by a bullet."

6 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, went through her daughter's sweatshirt.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did the bullet go through an upper part of your sweatshirt?

9 A. You mentioned a neighbour. I don't understand. [Realtime

10 transcript read in error without "Q."]

11 Q. I read that there was a bullet that went through your part of

12 clothing and the neighbour's part of clothing.

13 A. No, I do not remember that.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you on that day wear a tracksuit?

15 A. I had a T-shirt.

16 Q. So on that day, you did not --

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In line 14 of page 90, the answer and the

18 question are in the same line. I think that from "I read" and so on is a

19 new question. Am I right?

20 JUDGE ORIE: You might have some difficulties, Ms. Pilipovic, in

21 tracking this because you're not reading the English version. But there

22 are two subsequent answers, and Judge Nieto-Navia thinks that the new

23 question started with the words, "I read that there was a bullet that went

24 through your part of clothing and the neighbour's part of clothing." That

25 was your question, I think.

Page 2506

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the transcript will be corrected accordingly,

3 but it's at least clarified at this moment.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You started putting a question to the witness after

6 she answered, "I had a T-shirt." You started your next question, as it

7 appears in the transcript: "So on that day, you did not --"

8 Would you please proceed, then, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you have a tracksuit on on that day?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. On that day, who went to the hospital with your

13 father?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you go or did someone else go?

16 A. I went, the neighbour went who helped me to get my father out, and

17 the neighbour whose car was at our disposal.

18 Q. Do you know, how long did your father spend in hospital?

19 A. I do not recall exactly.

20 Q. Do you remember who went to get your father when he was supposed

21 to leave the hospital?

22 A. I was not there when he was discharged from hospital.

23 Q. You said that you visited your parents often, and I believe that

24 you said that it was once a week.

25 A. At least once a week.

Page 2507

1 Q. During the times that you were visiting your parents, was there

2 shooting in the area where your parents lived?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us where the shooting was coming from?

5 A. In general when I visited, or on that day?

6 Q. During those days, before that day, other times when you came.

7 A. From Poljine, from Orahov Brijeg, and from Mirkovici.

8 Q. You said that on that day, there were about 10, 15 bullets, single

9 shots were fired?

10 A. Approximately. I don't remember exactly.

11 Q. Could you tell us how much time is needed to fire 10 or 15 single

12 shots?

13 A. I do not know how much time is needed for that. I know how many

14 bullets were fired then.

15 Q. How long did it last at the time?

16 A. The entire time while we were getting him out, while we were

17 getting my father out.

18 Q. Do you know or do you have any knowledge whether there was any

19 shooting before you came to visit the parents on that day?

20 A. When I came to visit them, on the road, there was firing. A

21 couple of shots could be heard.

22 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether any official authorities came,

23 an official, to see whether there were incidents in that area near your

24 house?

25 A. When?

Page 2508

1 Q. On that day or the next day.

2 A. On the day of the wounding?

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether some official organ came to

4 investigate?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You told us that you lost your husband. Could you tell us whether

7 you lost your husband during the conflict that lasted in Sarajevo and the

8 surrounding area?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were born in that house. Is that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us, from your house, is Vogosca visible, and which

13 part?

14 A. From the house, yes -- from the house, no. From outside of the

15 house, yes.

16 Q. While you were at your parents' house before the day in question

17 when the incident happened, while you were there, did you see armed men in

18 that area where your parents were living?

19 A. My brother was a soldier.

20 Q. Did your brother wear a uniform?

21 A. Nobody wore a uniform.

22 Q. Did he have weapons?

23 A. I did not live with them at the time. On the front line,

24 probably, yes. I don't know about the house.

25 Q. Just one more question. When you say "front line," could you

Page 2509

1 locate the front line in relation to your house?

2 A. In relation to my father's house, about 500 metres.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

4 Defence has nothing further.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 Mr. Mundis, are you in need of re-examination?

7 MR. MUNDIS: With your leave, just a few questions, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

10 Q. Witness K, in response to a question from Defence counsel, you

11 testified that your brother was a soldier. On the day that your father

12 was shot, was your brother present and on your parents' property?

13 A. No.

14 Q. To your recollection, on that day when you were there, were there

15 any soldiers present on your parents' property?

16 A. No.

17 Q. To your recollection, on the day your father was shot, when you

18 were present, did you see any military equipment whatsoever on your

19 parents' property?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Witness K, were you in the military at any time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. In response to a question from Defence counsel, you also indicated

24 that one of the areas where fire originated was Mirkovica [phoen].

25 A. Mirkovici.

Page 2510

1 Q. Mirkovici. I stand corrected. What -- if you recall, what type

2 of fire came from Mirkovici?

3 A. All kinds of weapons: snipers, the PAT, PAM anti-aircraft gun.

4 All kinds of weapons.

5 Q. Finally, Witness K, in response to a question from the Defence

6 counsel, you testified that in Sarajevo there were snipers in all parts of

7 town. Is that correct?

8 A. Entire Sarajevo was covered with snipers.

9 Q. In the area where you lived, on what side of the confrontation

10 line were those snipers?

11 A. Me personally?

12 Q. In the area of Sarajevo where you lived, on what side of the

13 confrontation line were the snipers located?

14 A. In Dobrinja, Hrasno Brdo, the Hrasno hill, where I lived, towards

15 Trebevic, and the whole length of the town.

16 Q. And these areas that you've just indicated, Witness K, were they

17 on the VRS side of the line or the ABiH side of the confrontation line?

18 A. On the side of the army of Republika Srpska.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness K.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

21 questions.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

23 Any of my colleagues? Judge Nieto-Navia? Yes, Judge Elmahdi will

24 put one or more questions to you.

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 2511

1 JUDGE ELMAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 [Interpretation] Witness, you have told us - at least, that's what

3 I understood - that at the time you went up to your father to help him,

4 you were being shot at while you were standing. What I understood was

5 that at the moment you lay down on the ground, because you were afraid,

6 some bullets grazed one of your legs. I don't know whether I understood

7 correctly your testimony. Did the shooting stop once you were on the

8 ground? Or perhaps I have misunderstood your testimony. What exactly was

9 it that you wanted to say?

10 A. As I stood up, the shooting started. When I wanted to take my

11 father, to carry him away, the fire was opened, and then I threw myself on

12 the ground. At that moment, bullets were falling all around our feet, and

13 then the shooting stopped at one point. But as soon as we tried to get

14 up, the shooting resumed.

15 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] So it was your impression that you

16 were being shot at only while you were standing up, but the shooters would

17 have seen you whether you were lying down or standing up. You would have

18 been visible to them, according to you. I'm interested in your opinion.

19 A. Well, the area was visible; at least, I think that they could have

20 seen us.

21 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one question to you, Mrs. K. On a

23 question of a Prosecution, you told that snipers were all over Sarajevo.

24 You have then been asked whether there were -- I correct myself. I think

25 it was on a question of the Defence that you said that there were snipers

Page 2512

1 all over Sarajevo. Then the Prosecution has asked you whether they were

2 on the Serbian, the VRS side, or on the BiH side, and you answered that

3 they were on the VRS side. Did you intend to exclude that snipers were on

4 the BiH side? So would you say exclusively they were on the VRS side, or

5 they were at the VRS side but they might have been on the other side as

6 well? Could you please clarify your answer in this respect.

7 A. When I said that, I was referring to the snipers of the VRS, who

8 shot at us in the town. That is what I had in mind.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And were there snipers on the other side as

10 well, as far as you know?

11 A. As for the BiH side; is that what you mean?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I mean.

13 A. I don't know.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know. Thank you for your answer.

15 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could just ask one or two

17 questions to follow up on Judge Elmahdi's questions, if that would be

18 possible.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just discuss the order of questioning.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please go ahead, but if this raises any specific

22 issue, then of course Ms. Pilipovic would have an opportunity to put an

23 additional question as well.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Further examination by Mr. Mundis:

Page 2513

1 Q. Witness K, at the time when you were lying on the ground with your

2 neighbour and your father, can you tell us what type of plants were

3 there? Were you still in the vegetable patch, was there grass, was it

4 tall grass, was it grass that had been cut, et cetera? Can you describe

5 the terrain there, what kind of plants there were between where you found

6 your father and your parents' house.

7 A. Yes, I see. There was a vegetable patch there, nettles, and some

8 low grass, low-growing grass.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness K.

10 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

13 I should like to have the witness shown 3204, please, so that she can

14 indicate on the photograph the bushes, the plants that she was talking

15 about while describing the location of their house.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It directly relates to the question put by the

17 Prosecutor.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the witness

19 looks at the photograph, I should like to ask that the photograph be put

20 on a visible place so that General Galic could follow the examination,

21 because this morning he told me that he was not able to follow the

22 testimony because the witness was not putting the photographs on a visible

23 spot.

24 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, one of the reasons this morning

25 was to make the protective measures effective, especially when pointing to

Page 2514

1 certain houses, et cetera. I don't know whether this is at this moment of

2 any relevance, since we are talking about grasses and herbs, I think,

3 rather than of houses.

4 May I ask you also, Mr. Mundis: The protective measures have been

5 sought by the Prosecution, so I would like to ...

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the --

7 JUDGE ORIE: It's under seal, as far as I understand.

8 Yes, please proceed.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would have the same

10 concerns about this document being placed on the ELMO to the extent that

11 it would identify either this witness or her father.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would anyone have a copy with him at this

13 moment of this document so that we can give a copy to General Galic so

14 that at least he has the picture in front of him and that he'll be best

15 able to...

16 Would you have another copy, Ms. Pilipovic, or... ?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm just looking for

18 it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If the Prosecution could be of any assistance. You

20 can't find it.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we don't have it, Your

22 Honour. But let me ask the question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm really concerned about General Galic to be able

24 to follow exactly what is said in this court. We have here P3204. That's

25 the...

Page 2515

1 Yes, we have similar photo here, but with some markings on it. If

2 it's just about the picture -- you found it. Okay. Problem solved.

3 And please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness K, do you think you can locate your

7 parents' house on this photograph, please?

8 A. Yes, I can.

9 Q. Could you explain to us what kind of plants grow around your

10 parents' house. Can you see that?

11 A. Grass, trees. I don't know exactly what you have in mind.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The trees in question --

15 MR. MUNDIS: We have an objection, Your Honour. Perhaps the

16 question could be clarified with respect to the time of the year when the

17 photograph was taken versus the time of the year when the incident

18 occurred versus the plants that were growing at the actual time of this

19 incident.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, would you -- it came into my mind as well,

21 Ms. Pilipovic. Would you please keep in mind that the seasons are not

22 always the same and the years are not the same always as well.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the incident took

24 place on the 23rd of June. If the photograph was taken on June 22nd and

25 signed by Witness G, then I don't think that there's any doubt as to the

Page 2516

1 truthfulness of the location and the picture itself in the month of June.

2 I mean, the plants would have been the same.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps the plants would have been the same, Your

5 Honour, but we've also heard evidence from Witness G that there was a

6 vegetable garden which is not necessarily shown in this photograph. There

7 was a period of eight years that have lapsed between the time this

8 photograph was taken and the events that we've heard testimony about

9 today.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had that in my mind. I did not only refer to

11 seasons but also to years, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 Could you please, although it might be the same season, it might

13 not be exactly the same situation, keep that in mind while questioning the

14 witness.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness K, do you remember in 1993 what kind of greenery, if any,

17 was growing in the vicinity of your parents' house?

18 A. There was a vegetable patch below.

19 Q. And below the vegetable patch? Could you describe for us what

20 kind of plants there were? In the vicinity of your parents' house, were

21 there any trees at that time?

22 A. Just below, below the vegetable garden, a bit further down.

23 Q. When you say, "a bit further down," what distance do you have in

24 mind; 5, 10 metres?

25 A. 15.

Page 2517

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No

2 further questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Since I see no documents to be admitted into

4 evidence, Ms. K, this is the end of your examination as a witness in this

5 Court. I would like to thank you for coming. It's a far distance. We

6 are all aware of that. Thank you for being willing to give all the

7 information the parties and this Court needs in order to take the

8 decisions we'll have to take as good as we can. Thank you very much for

9 coming, and I wish you a safe trip home.

10 Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness out of the

11 courtroom.

12 [Witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, although there's only 10 minutes to go,

14 nevertheless we lost a couple of minutes this morning, and if you would be

15 able to call your next witness. You are becoming so efficient that ten

16 minutes is a lot of time.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next witness will be

18 taken by Mr. Ierace.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps while we're waiting, we do have the document

21 that Ms. Pilipovic provided to us that we'll give back to her.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, would you please proceed.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. The next witness is

24 Witness L.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is the usher instructed to bring in Witness L? We'll

Page 2518

1 have to wait.

2 Could you please bring the next witness, Mr. Usher.

3 We have to wait for a second.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, may I take the opportunity, whilst we

5 are waiting on Witness L, to indicate that this witness is the only

6 witness who will be called in relation to scheduled sniping incident

7 number 14. And it's an incident which is said to have occurred on the 7th

8 of October, 1993.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with the Court's

11 indulgence, I should like to clarify an issue with my colleagues. Are we

12 talking about minutes or hours when we're discussing the length of the

13 testimony? Here, I have one hour, and then 50 in the brackets. Does that

14 mean 50 percent of the time allocated, or 50 minutes?

15 MR. IERACE: I'm grateful to assist, Mr. President. The one hour

16 original estimate has been reduced to half an hour. So .50 means half an

17 hour, 30 minutes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's how I understood it.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please, if you give an answer, say it

24 loud. You are far from the microphone. We will call you "Mr. L" because

25 protective measures have been granted in respect of you. So Mr. L, the

Page 2519

1 Rules require you to make a solemn statement. The text of the solemn

2 statement will be given to you by the usher. Would you please make that

3 statement.

4 Yes, please, proceed.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You have been called as a witness, and you'll be

10 first examined by Mr. Ierace, counsel for the Prosecution.

11 Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

16 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown P3650.

17 Q. Sir, could you please look at the information in front of you.

18 And having read it, can you confirm that it states your name and date of

19 birth correctly.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. IERACE: Might that be tendered as a confidential exhibit,

22 please, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, confidential exhibit is admitted under seal.

24 Mr. Usher, I think there have been no additions made -- you have a

25 copy, Ms. Pilipovic? Have you seen the...? Yes.

Page 2520

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please return the original

3 to Madam Registrar.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


6 Q. Sir, where were you living in 1993?

7 A. In Sarajevo.

8 Q. In October of 1993, what was your occupation?

9 A. I was a member of the Civil Defence.

10 Q. At that stage, were your parents alive, that is, in October 1993?

11 A. Yes. Yes, they were.

12 Q. Whereabouts were they living? And I don't wish you to give their

13 address, but simply the area in which they were living.

14 A. At Kobilja Glava.

15 Q. During the month of October 1993, did you attempt to visit them?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there an occasion when you attempted to deliver some bread to

18 them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did something happen to you whilst you were doing that?

21 A. On that occasion when I went to bring them some bread, I was

22 wounded.

23 Q. What time of day or night was it when you were wounded?

24 A. It was in the morning.

25 Q. Can you assist us with approximately what time it was in the

Page 2521

1 morning?

2 A. I'm not sure.

3 Q. All right. Do you recollect the date?

4 A. 7th of October, 1993.

5 Q. Do you recollect the weather at the time?

6 A. No, not really. I remember that it was not raining, for example.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether there was any light at the time that you

8 were wounded?

9 A. Yes. Yes, there was. The visibility was good.

10 Q. At the time that you were wounded, were you on a street or a

11 footpath or on some grass, or where?

12 A. In the street. Well, on the road, where cars go.

13 Q. What was the name of the street?

14 A. Stari Cesta [phoen], the old road.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Ierace, but before

16 ending, I just wonder whether we could perhaps spend 10 to 15 minutes

17 more, if the parties would allow, but especially if the interpreters'

18 booth and the technicians could be of further assistance. If not, please

19 let me know, but it has just been a couple of minutes since we started

20 with this witness and I'd like to continue just for a while.

21 I do not hear yet any objections.

22 THE INTERPRETER: It is fine with us, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you very much for your assistance.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace, and would you find a suitable moment,

25 let's say, anywhere between 10 and 15 minutes, to stop.

Page 2522


2 Q. Before that day, had you tried to deliver bread to your parents?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I had.

4 Q. I think you said that there was light in the sky, the visibility

5 was good. Do you remember how long it was after the first light in the

6 sky that you were wounded, approximately?

7 A. No, I couldn't tell you exactly. I'm not sure.

8 Q. On previous occasions when you had taken bread to your parents,

9 had you done so at a particular time of day or night, or in particular

10 conditions, or not?

11 A. Only during the night. Only when it was dark.

12 Q. Was there any reason for that?

13 A. Yes, of course. Since the shooting was almost constant in that

14 area, we were forced to move around by night.

15 Q. In September of last year, did you revisit the place where you

16 were wounded, that is, September 2001?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that in the company of an investigator and some other people

19 from the Prosecutor's office at the Tribunal?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, could you tell us where it was on your body that you were

22 wounded.

23 A. The left upper arm.

24 Q. I think you said that you were on the road itself at the time.

25 Were you walking or standing or running, or what, at the time that you

Page 2523

1 were wounded?

2 A. When I was wounded, I was walking and pushing a trolley.

3 Q. I take it by what you have said that you were pushing the trolley

4 in front of you. Is that the case?

5 A. No. The trolley was behind me and I was pulling it with my right

6 hand.

7 Q. What happened, if anything, shortly before you were shot? Did you

8 hear anything?

9 A. I heard a shot, a burst of gunfire. Two or three bullets were

10 fired before I was hit myself. The bullets whizzed past me or whizzed up

11 above my head and went past me.

12 Q. I think you indicated earlier that you were shot on your arm, your

13 left arm. Could you indicate more precisely where it was that you -- that

14 the bullet entered your body, by pointing to the relevant part of your

15 body.

16 A. Yes. The bullet entered here and exited there, behind. Went in

17 here, came out there.

18 Q. Do you mean that the bullet entered on the outer part of your left

19 upper arm and exited on the inner side of your left upper arm?

20 A. Yes. It went in through the front and exited through the back.

21 Q. What did you do after you were shot?

22 A. I automatically tried to take shelter, take cover, and I went into

23 a canal, waited for the situation to calm down.

24 Q. And then what happened after that?

25 A. I stayed there until a car went by, came by, and the driver of

Page 2524

1 that car took me to my parents' place, who were some 200 metres away.

2 They lived 200 metres away from the spot where the incident took place.

3 Q. All right. Now, for what period of time were you in that canal,

4 approximately?

5 A. About ten minutes.

6 Q. Were you later taken to receive medical treatment?

7 A. Yes. Not long afterwards, the same driver returned to fetch me,

8 and he took me to the infirmary, where I was given first aid and an

9 anti-tetanus shot, and then I went to Kosevo Hospital after that.

10 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.


12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I notice we have about five minutes

14 left. I think that would be sufficient time to show the video, if that's

15 convenient to the Trial Chamber, the video for this particular incident.

16 It's a redacted video. I think it only runs for about three minutes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

18 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown a video with the

19 following exhibit number: P3280B.

20 Q. Whilst that is being prepared, sir, would you please look at the

21 computer screen in front of you, and I think the Chamber usher will allow

22 you to view a video on it, which will shortly be shown.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. L, you'll be shown the video now. We'll stop

24 soon afterwards. So would you please concentrate very much, because

25 tomorrow we'll continue. And if necessary, of course, it could be

Page 2525

1 replayed to you if you have any doubt on whether it's still in your

2 memory. But you can look at it first now. Yes.

3 [Videotape played]:

4 INVESTIGATOR: Please stand where you were standing to

5 the best of your recollection when you were shot.

6 I will now mark that spot in yellow paint with a figure

7 "X."

8 Please assume the position at the spot you indicated, the

9 position you were in, to the best of your recollection, at the

10 time you were shot.

11 Please point in the general direction from which you

12 heard gunfire at the time you were shot, to the best of your

13 recollection.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Ierace. Do you intend to put any

15 questions, or shall we stop here?

16 MR. IERACE: Just a few questions, Mr. President, if that's

17 convenient.

18 JUDGE ORIE: One or two, but I said 10 to 15 minutes. We are

19 close to 15 minutes, so please proceed but keep in mind the clock.


21 Q. Although your face was not visible in that video, did you

22 nevertheless recognise the situation and yourself?

23 A. Yes, absolutely so, yes.

24 Q. The investigator asked you to do certain things. In carrying out

25 his directions, did you do them truthfully and to the best of your

Page 2526

1 recollection?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. IERACE: Nothing further this afternoon, Mr. President. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

6 Mr. L, it was only a very short this afternoon. But for practical

7 reasons we have to stop now, and we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

8 Our apologies for just being called for such a short period of time. But

9 as I said, tomorrow we'll continue.

10 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same

11 courtroom.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 4.15 p.m., to be reconvened on

14 Tuesday, the 29th day of January, 2002,

15 at 9.00 a.m.