Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2726

1 Thursday, 31 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Before we resume the

9 examination of witnesses, I'd like to inform you that the Chamber has seen

10 a copy of the letter written by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, addressed to

11 Mr. Ierace. We went through the relevant parts of the transcript. The

12 Chamber is of the opinion that it's beyond our competence what is in this

13 letter. It seems to be a bit of a personalised conflict on something that

14 happened out of this Court. It bears no direct relevance for what has

15 happened in Court.

16 The Chamber expects both parties to continue to communicate with

17 each other. The way it's done is not our major concern. Our major

18 concern is that it is done, and which members of one of the teams will

19 participate in it, or whether you do it by a computer chat session, or

20 whether you do it with a video recorder, recording whatever has been said,

21 is none of our business. This Chamber expects both parties to communicate

22 and to fulfil their duties in respect of the case we're hearing.

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to begin with,

25 good morning everybody. I have heard the Chamber's answer and I

Page 2727

1 understood it. And just one thing: The Defence is quite ready, as it

2 has assumed the responsibilities it has undertaken to meet with the

3 Prosecution to discuss matters. I merely wanted the Chamber to know that

4 the Defence is quite ready, of course, if Mr. Ierace is ready to meet us

5 so as to make movement forward. And if we have a personal problem, I am

6 quite sure that we shall be able to resolve it very easily. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber is dealing with two parties: Prosecution

8 and Defence. How they will organise their meetings is not of major

9 concern for this Chamber. What we expect, as a matter of fact, is that,

10 as grown-up professionals - I'm looking to both parties - you'll solve

11 your problems. Thank you. Then I'd say that this issue may be closed for

12 the moment, I hope forever.

13 Mr. Ierace, you may call your next witness, which will be --

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution calls Milada Halili.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll just use the time available at this moment

16 to do some computing. As far as I can see, the witness Ifeta Sahic has

17 been examined during one hour and three minutes, and the cross-examination

18 took one hour and fifteen minutes. As far as the witness Sabri Halili is

19 concerned, the examination-in-chief took one hour and eight minutes and

20 the cross-examination took close to one hour and a half. So I'd like the

21 Defence to keep an eye on the clock. It's more difficult for you to see,

22 but ... yes.

23 Please, Mr. Usher, bring the witness in.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

Page 2728

1 understand? I'll put the question again to you. Can you now hear me in a

2 language you can understand? I see no reaction at this moment.

3 Mrs. Halili, can you now hear me in a language you understand? I see some

4 reaction, but can you hear me, Mrs. Halili, in a language you understand?

5 Yes? Would you please --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is nodding.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- answer aloud because nodding cannot be translated

8 and will not be in the transcript of this Court hearing, so if you intend

9 to say "yes," please say "yes" aloud instead of nodding.

10 I see that there is still some problems.

11 Can you hear me, Mr. Usher?

12 THE USHER: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Can you adjust the headphones? Just test again.

14 Yes? It's clear, the noise, the sound? It seems not to be okay yet.

15 Yes?

16 Can you now hear me in a language you understand?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now. It's better now, thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Halili, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

20 require that you make a solemn declaration at the beginning of your

21 testimony. The text of that declaration will be given to you by the

22 usher. Would you please read it and make the declaration aloud?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 2729

1 [Witness answered through interpreter].

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mrs. Halili,

3 you will be first examined by Mr. Mundis of the Prosecution team.

4 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

7 Q. Witness, for the record, can you please state your full name and

8 spell your last name, please?

9 A. Milada, last name H-a-l-i-l-i.

10 Q. Ms. Halili, can you please state your date of birth and the city

11 or town in which you were born?

12 A. 12 of December, 1965, in Sarajevo.

13 Q. Ms. Halili, do you recall approximately when the war broke out in

14 Bosnia?

15 A. On the 5th of April, 1992.

16 Q. And in what city were you living at that time Ms. Halili?

17 A. I was living in -- on Pere Kosarica Square, now the Heroes'

18 Square.

19 Q. And is that square in the city of Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Throughout the course of the war in Bosnia, did you continue to

22 live in Sarajevo?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Ms. Halili, I'd like to draw your attention to June 27th, 1993.

25 Do you remember that day?

Page 2730

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Were you living at that time on the Heroes' Square?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. With whom did you live on that date at that location?

5 A. I was living there with my mother. However, when the war broke

6 out, since my mother had to cross the bridge and the snipers targeted it,

7 I told her to go to the post office company and sleep there, because I was

8 afraid for her life and I simply did not want to have to think whether

9 she'd get home alive or dead.

10 Q. Ms. Halili, can you please tell the Trial Chamber your mother's

11 name?

12 A. Almasa Konjhodzic.

13 Q. Witness, you've made reference to a bridge. Can you tell the

14 Trial Chamber the name of that bridge?

15 A. It's called Malta.

16 Q. Ms. Halili, why did you suggest to your mother that she go and

17 sleep at the post office?

18 A. Because a sniper from the hill and from Grbavica targeted that

19 bridge and I feared for her life.

20 Q. Did your mother work at that time? Was she employed at that time,

21 1993?

22 A. Yes, yes, yes. She was under labour obligation.

23 Q. For whom was your mother employed during 1993?

24 A. Public Enterprise Post Telephone and Telegraph Sarajevo, PTT

25 Sarajevo.

Page 2731

1 Q. Did your mother actually work in the PTT building?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And that is the building that you suggested that she sleep in to

4 avoid the snipers; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Ms. Halili, are you married currently?

7 A. I am.

8 Q. What is your husband's name?

9 A. Sabri Halili.

10 Q. On June 27, 1993, did you and your husband, Sabri Halili, take a

11 trip to pick up your mother at the PTT building?

12 A. We did.

13 Q. Approximately what time did you leave your apartment on that

14 morning?

15 A. I wouldn't know. It was 8.00, perhaps half past. I'm not quite

16 sure when it was that we started, but I know that we went to her place and

17 I took some coffee to her. She was ready, and we immediately set off to

18 go to my mother's brother.

19 Q. Let me ask you this: How far approximately was it from your

20 apartment to the PTT building?

21 A. Ten minutes.

22 Q. Did your husband and yourself then pick up your mother and proceed

23 to her brother's house?

24 A. Yes, we did, yes.

25 Q. And did you proceed on foot? That is, were you walking?

Page 2732

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Approximately how far did -- or approximately how long did it take

3 you to walk from the PTT building to your uncle's house?

4 A. About one hour, perhaps an hour and a half, thereabouts.

5 Q. On that morning, were you able to take a direct route or did you

6 have to take a circuitous route?

7 A. No. We had to take a roundabout way because nobody could, nobody

8 dared, nobody did take the main street.

9 Q. Ms. Halili, why did people not take the main street?

10 A. Because of the snipers who targeted it from Grbavica. So nobody

11 dared take the main street, and there was no traffic there at all at that

12 time.

13 Q. Ms. Halili, how did you become aware that snipers were in the

14 Grbavica area?

15 A. Because the Chetniks were on Grbavica. They held that area.

16 Q. How did you know that, Ms. Halili?

17 A. Well, because there is only a street which separates us, I mean my

18 neighbourhood and Grbavica.

19 Q. Were snipers the object of much conversation and discussion in

20 Sarajevo in June of 1993?

21 A. There were snipers because my building faces Grbavica shopping,

22 and my flat burnt down from that side.

23 Q. What exactly is the Grbavica shopping that you indicated?

24 A. It's a skyscraper. It's high-rise buildings, and there was a post

25 office and it was a shopping area. There were a number of shops, and it

Page 2733

1 is where they fired at the Heroes' Square from there, that is, at the

2 flats which faced Grbavica.

3 Q. Did you hear reports of sniping incidents?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Merely for the

6 interpretation. It is not quite clear. Could the witness please be more

7 specific? I do not understand whether she said "my building" or "my

8 apartment." It is merely for the clarity in the record. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that Mr. Piletta-Zanin can

10 follow the original language of the witness. Would you please clarify

11 that, Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, you indicated that there were snipers firing from the

14 Grbavica shopping, as you described it, to the building that you were

15 living in. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the target that

16 they were shooting at. That is, was it the entire building? Was it your

17 apartment specifically? Can you please tell us what --

18 A. The building as such, the whole building. They were firing at

19 it. But in October 1992, at that time, my flat burnt down.

20 Q. Now, Ms. Halili, were you aware during the course of the war in

21 Bosnia, in Sarajevo in particular, of media reports on the radio or

22 television or in the newspaper about sniping incidents in Sarajevo?

23 A. No, because there was no electricity.

24 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now back to the day that your

25 husband and your mother and yourself were walking to visit your uncle. Do

Page 2734

1 you recall approximately what time you arrived at your uncle's house?

2 A. I don't know. All I know is that we left his house around 12.00.

3 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you had stayed at your

4 uncle's house on that morning?

5 A. I don't know. I never looked at the watch. But what I know is

6 that we had to leave because my mother had to go to work, and it was 12.00

7 then.

8 Q. Ms. Halili, do you recall the neighbourhood or the area, what the

9 name of that area was where your uncle lived?

10 A. The street is called Borak.

11 Q. And is that street in a particular neighbourhood of Sarajevo?

12 A. Between Kovacica and Urjan Dedina, below Tranzit.

13 Q. Now, Ms. Halili, when the three of you departed your uncle's

14 apartment - and by "the three of you," I mean yourself, your husband, and

15 your mother - you were returning to the PTT building; is that correct?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. Do you recall the specific route or streets that you took on that

18 morning to return to the PTT building?

19 A. We went through a school, Valter Peric school. We had to go that

20 way. Then we went behind Skenderija, Dobrovoljacka, then next to the post

21 office on the embankment, then by the central prison behind the Sarajka

22 department store, by the Presidency, and we were moving towards the -- and

23 we headed for the military hospital in Sarajevo.

24 Q. Now, witness, when you just testified that you went next to the

25 post office on the embankment, is that the post office where your mother

Page 2735












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2736

1 worked?

2 A. Yes. No. No. No. That is a different post office. It burnt

3 down in May 1992.

4 Q. Do you recall whether on that day you walked past the Marsal Tito

5 barracks?

6 A. On our way back, before we reached the intersection where my

7 mother was killed, we could hear a faraway shot, and my mother tripped and

8 she lost her shoe and my husband helped her to get it. And I told my

9 mother - and there was a FAP trailer, because this trailer was not on the

10 ground at all - my mother to start running. However, I was the first one

11 to start to run, and I reached the traffic lights there. When I reached

12 the traffic lights, I only heard my mother call out "Milada." When I

13 turned around, she was already down on her knees. And at that moment when

14 I saw that, I immediately hailed a car. And my husband pulled her to a

15 separate place, and I immediately stopped the car and we put her in the

16 car and took her to the hospital.

17 Q. Ms. Halili, I'd like to ask you a few specific questions about

18 what happened at that corner. Do you recall seeing -- you mentioned a

19 trailer. Do you recall seeing any other types of barricades at that

20 intersection on that morning or early afternoon?

21 A. No. Just those containers and that trailer. That's what I saw.

22 And our people had set that up there, because the sniper kept shooting

23 from Grbavica. So they were the barricades and the barriers or covers set

24 up so that people could pass by.

25 Q. Witness, you mentioned "those containers" and "that trailer." Do

Page 2737

1 you recall approximately how many containers were located at that

2 intersection on 27 June 1993?

3 A. There were two containers, and in the middle there was the FAP

4 trailer.

5 Q. Witness, you testified a few moments ago about hearing a shot that

6 startled your mother. Do you recall if you heard any other shots after

7 that first gunshot?

8 A. No. That second one that was at the intersection, that hit my

9 mother.

10 Q. Witness, you've testified about taking your mother to the

11 hospital.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recall what happened once you arrived at the hospital?

14 A. When I arrived at the hospital, I got straight out of the car and

15 told the nurses to get a stretcher. And when they put my mother on a

16 stretcher, my mother had dentures, and I told them to take her dentures

17 out. I had already seen that she had got a deathly pallor on her and that

18 she was done for.

19 Q. Did there come a time, shortly after the car that you were in

20 arrived at the hospital, that your husband arrived at the hospital?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. After your arrival at the hospital that afternoon, Ms. Halili, did

23 you have any discussions with any doctors or medical personnel about what

24 happened to your mother?

25 A. When I got to the hospital, when we brought her there, the doctor

Page 2738

1 asked me -- Dr. Abdulah Nakas was on duty. He took her in. And he asked

2 me what relationship I was to my mother, and I said I was her mother [as

3 interpreted], but they didn't let me stay in the waiting room close to

4 her.

5 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Nakas or any other medical personnel told you

6 the cause of death of your mother?

7 A. My husband went later on. I went to go and see how my mother was

8 doing. But my husband told me that the doctor said my mother had died and

9 that she had been shot in the main tendon, that she had been hit in her

10 main tendon.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

12 the document marked P1340.

13 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis. Yes.

16 Do you have the document in front of you? I have full

17 understanding for the feelings that you will have. It will not be easy

18 for you to be confronted again with what happened in the past to you. So

19 if you feel ready to answer the questions, please indicate so.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? And if there is any moment that you feel that

22 you need a pause just to recover from the emotions you certainly will

23 have, please let me know immediately.

24 Now, Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 2739

1 Q. Ms. Halili, the document which is now before you, which is marked

2 P1340, can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is, please?

3 A. This is the death certificate for my mother.

4 Q. Have you seen this document before?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you provided a copy of this document by the authorities in

7 Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the usher retrieve P1340 from the

10 witness, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take the document from the witness?


13 Q. Ms. Halili, do you recall what type of clothing your mother was

14 wearing on the day she was shot?

15 A. She was wearing a red dress with a black tiger on the front of the

16 dress, the print of a black tiger on her dress.

17 Q. And how old was your mother at the time she was shot?

18 A. Fifty-five.

19 Q. To your knowledge, was your mother carrying any kind of weapons or

20 arms on that day?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall what you were wearing on that day?

23 A. I don't remember. I just remember what my mother was wearing on

24 that day, and I shall always remember that.

25 Q. Ms. Halili, do you recall what your husband was wearing on that

Page 2740

1 day?

2 A. No, no, I don't.

3 Q. Your husband was a soldier at that point in time; isn't that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was your husband wearing any type of military uniform?

7 A. No, because our side didn't have any uniforms, just what they had

8 at home. So they would wear the civilian clothing that they had at home,

9 the civilian uniform.

10 Q. Ms. Halili, when you make reference to "our side," can you please

11 tell the Trial Chamber which side that was, please?

12 A. The Bosnian army.

13 Q. On the morning your husband was shot -- or excuse me, on the

14 morning your mother was shot, was your husband carrying any kind of weapon

15 or military arms?

16 A. No, because he wasn't on duty.

17 Q. At the intersection where your mother was shot on that morning, do

18 you recall seeing any kind of military equipment or military vehicles in

19 the general vicinity where you were when she was shot?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall seeing any soldiers or any individuals in military

22 uniforms at that intersection on that day?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Ms. Halili, do you recall meeting with an investigator from the

25 Office of the Prosecutor of the International Tribunal in mid-September,

Page 2741

1 2001?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall that that investigator provided you with a map of

4 Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you recall whether that investigator asked you to mark the spot

7 where your mother was shot on that map?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall whether the investigator asked you to draw an arrow

10 indicating the direction you were walking at the time your mother was

11 shot?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you recall if the investigator asked to you mark an arrow

14 on that map indicating where you believe the sniper was at the time he

15 shot your mother?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the usher show the

18 witness the Exhibit marked P3260.

19 Q. Ms. Halili, do you now have the map marked P3260 in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recognise your signature and a date on the lower,

22 right-hand corner of that document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you see the markings that you made on that document with a blue

25 marker?

Page 2742

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. MUNDIS: If the usher could please assist the witness by

3 putting that on the ELMO? And also if she could be provided with a thick,

4 blue marker?

5 Q. Ms. Halili, if you're able to do so, I would like you to put a

6 circle around the markings that you previously made indicating the spot

7 where your mother was shot. Please place a circle around the previous

8 markings.

9 A. It was here.

10 Q. And can you please draw a square box around the previous markings

11 that you made indicating where the sniper was located?

12 A. [Marks]

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Ms. Halili.

14 The usher can return that document to the Registrar.

15 Q. Ms. Halili, I just have a few final questions about your

16 apartment. You testified earlier this morning that your flat had been

17 burned. Do you know --

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Do you know what caused your apartment to burn?

20 A. It was in October, when the Chetniks attacked the 11 blue ones and

21 wanted to enter Heroes' Square. That was when my apartment burned down.

22 And from the 15th onwards, quite a number of high-rise buildings, that is

23 to say all five high-rise buildings were on fire at that time. That is to

24 say in October, 1992.

25 Q. Do you know what caused the fire to start?

Page 2743

1 A. All I know is that I was watching from one of the other

2 skyscrapers, and I watched my apartment burn, and I wasn't able to do

3 anything about it, to save the apartment because there was a lot of

4 shooting. As soon as they saw somebody trying to put out a fire, they

5 would shoot at them.

6 Q. Ms. Halili, you've made reference to five high-rise buildings. Do

7 you recall approximately how --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- many storeys those buildings had?

10 A. Twenty.

11 Q. Ms. Halili, do you recall any instances where people were shooting

12 from your apartment building outwards, that is people in your building

13 shooting towards people outside of your building?

14 A. No. Because all the people were there -- who were there had

15 families. They were ordinary people afraid for their lives of their

16 families and watched where the shooting was coming from.

17 Q. Ms. Halili, referring to the apartment building that you lived in,

18 were there any military headquarters located in that building?

19 A. No.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

21 questions for Ms. Halili at this time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, may I just draw your attention to page

23 11, line 25, on the -- your laptop, and see whether some clarification

24 could be made? You've read that line? Just see whether there is any

25 misunderstanding.

Page 2744

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Ms. Halili, you testified earlier that --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


5 Q. Dr. Nakas at the hospital. Do you remember when you had a

6 discussion with Dr. Nakas at the hospital on the day your mother was shot?

7 A. My husband talked to him. I just wanted to go in with my mother,

8 but they wouldn't allow me to go in, and he asked me what I was to the

9 woman, and I said I was the daughter, but they said I should stay and wait

10 in the waiting room, and I wasn't allowed to go in the room that they were

11 taking my mother in.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Ms. Halili.

13 No further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the French

16 transcript, I don't know whether this is important, but I think at page

17 17, line 18, the translation does not coincide. I don't know how far the

18 French transcript is of definitive importance. That's my question. So I

19 don't know whether this point ought to be clarified or not.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I have no French transcript. What is -- if there is

21 any contradiction, please indicate what it is.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was just speaking about the

23 interpretation. I'm not sure that the transcript for the Chamber has any

24 importance in French. Now, if the French transcript is important for the

25 Chamber, then I shall go on with my point. If not, then, I don't mind. I

Page 2745












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2746

1 don't think that "headquarters," the word "headquarters," was translated

2 properly. In French, the translation was "locaux," which isn't the right

3 translation of the word "headquarters." So I don't know if the French

4 transcript is meritorious or not.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think the French translation is recorded but not

6 written down on paper, but I'm just looking to Madam Registrar, whether

7 this is correct or not.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: My information was not correct. There's a French

10 transcript as well. And please verify whether this remark now made

11 finally will find its way into the transcript, because "locaux" and

12 "headquarters" might not be similar. Thank you for your assistance,

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready for cross-examination?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Halili, questions will now be put to you by

17 members of the Defence team, and please be aware that we fully understand

18 how difficult that is for you, and I hope that you have some understanding

19 for the necessity of giving the information which this Court will need to

20 take whatever decisions we have to take. Yes? Are you able to respond to

21 the questions? Yes.

22 Then, Ms. Pilipovic --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I have a short break, please?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course you may have. You would just like to

25 leave the courtroom for a second or just have a pause and drink some

Page 2747

1 water?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please. I'd like to leave the

3 courtroom.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we'll just have a break of a couple of

5 minutes.

6 Madam Registrar, what are we usually doing?

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn for five minutes.

9 --- Break taken at 9.51 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.02 a.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right in assuming that the usher is getting the

12 witness? So then we'll wait until she returns.

13 Mrs. Halili, you can hear me?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that this short break helped you to recover

16 from --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have full understanding for your feelings, and as

19 we hope you'll have understanding that your information is important for

20 this Court. And therefore we will proceed, but if at any moment you feel

21 you're not able to answer the questions, please let me know.

22 Ms. Pilipovic, you may cross-examine the witness.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

25 Q. Mrs. Halili, hello to you.

Page 2748

1 A. Hello.

2 Q. The Defence would like to convey to you that we feel very sorry

3 for the loss -- for your loss, for the death of your mother.

4 As you said, the war started on the 5th of April 1992, and the war

5 brings nothing but death. How do you know that the war started on the 5th

6 of April?

7 A. Because shooting started on the 5th of April.

8 Q. Could you tell us where?

9 A. In Sarajevo.

10 Q. Could you tell us: When the shooting started in Sarajevo, who

11 started the shooting?

12 A. The Chetniks.

13 Q. Mrs. Halili, when you say "the Chetniks," who do you mean?

14 A. I mean the Chetniks who were shooting around the city. They were

15 shooting at everything that moved. They were shooting at hospitals. They

16 were shooting at everyone.

17 Q. The Chetniks who were shooting all around the city, could you tell

18 us who these people were?

19 A. These Chetniks, these were the Serbs who were in the mountains,

20 and they were shooting on Sarajevo. The Serbs who stayed in Sarajevo,

21 those were real Serbs, who only had one country, one state, and that was

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and those are the real Serbs for me. Those Serbs who

23 shot at us, they are Chetniks. They're not real Serbs.

24 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Halili. Mrs. Halili, could you tell us if you

25 remember whether you gave statements to the Prosecutor's office?

Page 2749

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us when that was?

3 A. I know that the Bosnian police first called me in 1994 or in

4 1995. I do not remember exactly. But I remember I was called by them,

5 and then I was called nearly every year by the investigators from The

6 Hague Tribunal.

7 Q. If I tell you that you gave a statement on the 10th of November,

8 1995, and if I show you this statement, would you agree with me if I say

9 that you gave that statement then?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If I tell you that you gave a statement in September 2001, would

12 you agree with me that you gave that statement then?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Considering the time when you gave the first statement in 1995,

15 could you tell us that your memory was perhaps fresher in 1995 rather than

16 in 2001?

17 A. In 1995, of course I could remember better.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 You told us that your mother worked at the post office?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From what time did she not stay at home?

22 A. From May, she only came to visit, and my husband had to go and get

23 her so they could go over the bridge.

24 Q. Could you tell us where you worked in 1992 and 1993?

25 A. I was in the BH Army. I was working in the kitchens.

Page 2750

1 Q. Could you tell us where your place of employment was in relation

2 to your place of residence, if we agree that you lived in 1992 and 1993 in

3 Pere Kosorica Square?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In relation to the place where you lived, where was your place of

6 employment?

7 A. My place of employment was in the first skyscraper by a restaurant

8 called Minjon. This is where I distributed meals to the soldiers of the

9 Bosnian Army.

10 Q. If I understood you correctly, in one of those five skyscrapers on

11 the Heroes' Square, there was a location where a BH Army soldiers gathered

12 and that's where you distributed food?

13 A. Yes. They came after they got off guard, and then they ate, and

14 then they went home to rest.

15 Q. Considering that you worked in such a place and that you saw

16 soldiers of the BH Army, could you tell me what these soldiers were

17 wearing?

18 A. They were dressed in civilian clothes because they had no

19 uniforms.

20 Q. Did they have weapons?

21 A. They did not bring weapons there because they did not have enough

22 weapons. It was well known that they had one rifle among them, for

23 several soldiers.

24 Q. Where did your husband work?

25 A. My husband stood guard but -- around there, but he came home to

Page 2751

1 sleep.

2 Q. Could you tell us where the command post of your husband was,

3 where did he go to have his equipment issued, weapons, to receive orders,

4 in relation to his place of residence at the square?

5 A. Where the Minjon restaurant was and where these people went, and

6 this is where they changed guard.

7 Q. Could you tell us in relation to the square, how many BH soldiers

8 were normally standing guard on that square?

9 A. I don't know. All these people who were living there and who had

10 their families there, they were usually standing guard and they were

11 watching over their households.

12 Q. Could you tell us -- in relation to the skyscrapers on the square

13 where the BH Army members were, could you tell me, do you know were there

14 positions of the Republika Srpska army in your vicinity?

15 A. We were only separated by one road from where the Bosnian Army

16 held the positions and the Chetniks.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you will allow us,

18 the Defence would like to have the witness shown a document P3260, and if

19 the witness could mark the position of the BH Army as well as the

20 positions of the Army of Republika Srpska?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you have the black pen available for the

22 witness, since this will be Defence markings.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Ms. Halili, can you see the map?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2752

1 Q. Could you mark for us on this map the location which says "Trg

2 Heroje," Heroes' Square, if that is the street where you lived?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And then in relation to that location, if you can mark the

5 positions of the Bosnian Army and then of the Army of Republika Srpska?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Mrs. Halili, could you tell us, this line above the Grbavica

8 stadium and then this black line which goes along the Topola Osman Pasa

9 [phoen] Street, is that the front line?

10 A. Yes. That was the line, that's where Palma was, and that's where

11 the Bosnian Army was, and then on the Grbavica stadium was -- that's where

12 the Chetniks were.

13 Q. Could you tell us in 1992, 1993, 1994, were there combats in this

14 area?

15 A. In 1992, there was combat when the Chetniks attacked the 11 blue,

16 and they wanted to get the square that was in October. They wanted to cut

17 Sarajevo through.

18 Q. Did they get through to the square?

19 A. No. They did not succeed, because the Bosnian Army, our men,

20 defended the place successfully so they would not -- so they would not cut

21 Sarajevo in half.

22 Q. Thank you. Considering that you have a map next to you, could you

23 mark for us the bridge that your mother was supposed to take to go to

24 work?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 2753

1 Q. Could you tell us there, where you underlined Dolac Malta, can you

2 tell us where is the bridge in relation to your apartment and in relation

3 to the post office where your mother worked? Which bridge is that?

4 A. It is between the street of Azize Sacirbegovic, and the Dzajniska

5 [phoen] Street.

6 Q. Could you just mark the bridge for us, please?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. On that morning of the 27th of June, 1993, you said you told us

9 you came to the workplace of your mother where she worked and where she

10 stayed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you mark for us where the post office was in relation to

13 your apartment?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. After you came to take your mother, you and your

16 husband, you said that you were -- set off in the direction of the street,

17 Urjan Dedina Street?

18 A. Yes. We went then up from there.

19 Q. Could you perhaps explain on the map where you had to go, as you

20 said, in order to get to the place where your uncle lived? Which route

21 did you take?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Halili. You have already marked the -- in that

24 portion down there, so by the Ljubljanska Street, so that would be --

25 A. That it would be between Kovacici and Urjan Dedina. That's below

Page 2754

1 Tranzit Road. That's where my uncle's house was.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me whether you took that road before,

3 that you took to get to your uncle's in 1992 and 1993?

4 A. That was the only route that we took to get to my uncle's in the

5 war.

6 Q. Why did you think that that was the safest route?

7 A. Because all the people went there, cars went there, because they

8 did not dare to go on the main road. Nobody walked along the main route

9 -- along the main road.

10 Q. You told us that the main road was dangerous because of sniping.

11 A. Yes, and there was shooting. They could see us on the main road.

12 They could see us as we walked and they could target us.

13 Q. Do you know from which side there was shooting?

14 A. From Grbavica and from the hill, from Hrasno hill.

15 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether there was shooting from the

16 buildings located in the area opposite Grbavica?

17 A. I did not understand the question.

18 Q. Could you show us on this map where the building of Energoinvest

19 is in relation to Grbavica, if you know, and also if you can show us

20 Holiday Inn.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. [No interpretation]

23 JUDGE ORIE: We have no translation at this moment.

24 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. I shall just repeat the question.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2755












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2756

1 Q. Was there shooting coming from the direction that you marked as

2 Holiday Inn?

3 A. No, there was no shooting in that direction coming from the

4 Holiday Inn.

5 Q. You said it was not possible to pass by Holiday Inn.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. Because the main road is there. We went behind the writers'

9 club. There were containers and there was a main road and they could see

10 us. So that was by the writers' club, and there were containers, so the

11 people could take cover as they were walking by.

12 Q. I asked you whether you knew there was shooting coming from the

13 Holiday Inn.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Because you said you worked in the BH army, you had contact with

16 soldiers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. During those contacts with the BH army soldiers, do you know

19 whether the Bosnian army had snipers?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Mrs. Halili, you said that on 23rd of June there was an incident

22 when your mother was killed. You marked on the map the location where the

23 incident happened. Could you tell us from which direction the bullet came

24 that hit your -- that killed your mother?

25 A. This did not happen on the 23rd. It happened on the 27th of June,

Page 2757

1 1993. And this bullet came from the white skyscrapers in Grbavica.

2 Q. Did you see it or hear it?

3 A. I heard the shot. My husband told me that the bullet had

4 ricocheted, but I don't think so, because you can see the intersection

5 from the skyscrapers. That's when my mother was killed.

6 Q. So you did not see the shot coming from the Grbavica skyscrapers?

7 A. I could hear it. I had come to the traffic lights when my mother

8 was shot, and when she called out my name she was already on her knees.

9 Q. Since you said you heard that it came from the Grbavica area and

10 the skyscrapers, could you tell us from which height, in relation to the

11 skyscraper, for which you said they had 20 floors, that the bullet had

12 come from?

13 A. I cannot tell you that, because I heard the shot and I thought it

14 was very far away. And when my mother called me, I could see that she was

15 hit.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, considering that this

18 is time for a break, is this a good time to have a break?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's a good time to have a break. Do

20 you have any idea, Ms. Pilipovic, how much time you would still need?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will respect the

22 time that it took to have the examination-in-chief.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a matter of just a couple of minutes?

24 Otherwise we might finish now.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Fifteen minutes.

Page 2758

1 JUDGE ORIE: Fifteen minutes. No. Then we'll have a break now.

2 Then we'll adjourn until 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Halili, we will continue your examination by Ms.

6 Pilipovic. You can hear me?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic, proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mrs. Halili, you told us that you had heard the shot when the

11 bullet was fired which hit your mother. Could you describe the

12 intersection where this happened? When I say "describe," can you tell us

13 what buildings are at this intersection?

14 A. There is the Marshal Tito barracks, and across the street is the

15 bus terminal, and that is the route one takes to the railway station.

16 Q. Do you know who was in the Marshal Tito barracks?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. And the -- were there any people at the bus stop?

19 A. There were, slightly behind it, people who were waiting for the

20 bus to go in the direction of the post office.

21 Q. That day, before the critical moment, did you hear any gunfire in

22 that part of the town, as you went through it?

23 A. Yes. A bullet was fired before we reached the intersection. I

24 heard a shot, and it frightened my mother and she tripped, she lost one

25 shoe, and my husband got it. And after that, we heard only one other shot

Page 2759

1 being fired, and that was the one which hit my mother, none other.

2 Q. Today, when asked by my learned friend at 9.32, you said that you

3 saw no military equipment.

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Anywhere nearby?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. You don't remember seeing anything like that?

8 A. No, and I don't remember.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

10 like to show the witness the statement that she gave to the investigators

11 of the Tribunal on the 11th of November, 1995. It is the document

12 00361312; in B/C/S, it is 00903834. The interpreters have this document,

13 but I also can gave my learned friends the copies of it, both in English

14 and B/C/S. I'd like to show the witness and ask her if she -- if it is

15 her signature on the English version and if it is the document which she

16 signed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I assume that this is just to be sure that

18 you're quoting the right document, that you're not tendering into evidence

19 the statement as such, but just in order to verify whether we are all

20 speaking about the same document when you will quote of it? Yes.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: A copy of a document will be now shown to you. Could

23 you please identify whether your signature is under it?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then please return --

Page 2760

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Will you please look at the second page of the same document?

3 Will you have a look at the page 2 the document?

4 JUDGE ORIE: The second page, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So then it will be returned to Ms. Pilipovic.

7 Just for technical -- as far as the technicalities are concerned,

8 I don't think that the document has to be marked for identification since

9 they will be quoting literally off it. It was just to be sure that we are

10 all speaking about the same document.

11 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

13 witness also has the statement in B/C/S. And we can give a copy of this

14 statement to the witness, if she wishes to read what she said. It is page

15 3, paragraph 2, of the document. The witness can look at it and the

16 Defence can do it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I would rather have you read these lines aloud, just

18 quoting the witness.

19 What now will happen, Mrs. Halili, is that Ms. Pilipovic will read

20 part of the statement you've just seen to you, and may put some questions

21 concerning your statement.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mrs. Halili, I will now read to you a part of page 3, that is

24 paragraph 2: "I stopped a civilian car. The soldier who was passing by

25 helped me and my husband to put my mother in the car and take her to the

Page 2761

1 hospital. I was in the car with her, and my husband started to the

2 hospital on foot." Did you state this?

3 A. Yes, I did. Because let me tell you, that guy who was there, he

4 was in civilian clothes, but anyone who was able-bodied, who could take up

5 a rifle and defend it -- so I just naturally thought that he was a

6 soldier. But he was not wearing a uniform. He was wearing civilian

7 clothes. I mean that guy who helped my husband and me to put my mother in

8 the car.

9 Q. That person who you said you merely think was a soldier, was that

10 person armed?

11 A. No, he wasn't.

12 Q. Can you tell us what is true: Is it true what you said in this

13 statement - and the statement was made in 1995, when you said that your

14 memory was better - that the soldier who was passing by helped you and

15 your husband, or is what you said -- what you answered today to my learned

16 friend true, that you did not remember seeing any soldier? What is true?

17 A. I do not remember --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. The witness has explained

20 the inconsistency, to the extent there was one, and we're not necessarily

21 conceding there is. But the witness has explained.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is sustained. There's no

23 contradiction as such. So the question whether she told the truth at that

24 time or at this time, since there's no contradiction, is not a fair

25 question. So please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 2762

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Your

2 Honour.

3 Q. In your vicinity, when you, your husband, and the soldier who

4 helped you to put your mother in the car, were there any other people

5 around, nearby?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Can you tell us if you reported to the official authority, or some

8 official authority, and if so, yes, did you report the incident to anyone?

9 A. I did not report it to anyone. I merely took her to the

10 hospital. Nothing. I was subsequently called by them. I never reported

11 anything to anyone.

12 Q. Can you tell us: When was it that you were called in the first

13 time, and who was it?

14 A. The Bosnian police.

15 Q. Was that -- if you remember, you told my learned friend that it

16 was in 1994.

17 A. 1994, 1995. I know it is then that I received -- that they called

18 me in. I can't remember exactly, because it was a long time ago.

19 Q. When the doctor said that your mother had died, did you receive

20 any document in the hospital?

21 A. Yes. I was issued with a document, but I have it at home.

22 Q. Can you tell us: In this part of the city, in the skyscrapers

23 where you lived, whatever, all those high-rise buildings, were there any

24 armed operations in 1992, 1993?

25 A. Yes, there were.

Page 2763

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. The

2 Defence has no further questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 Is there any need for re-examination, Mr. Mundis?

5 MR. MUNDIS: Just a few questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

8 Q. Mrs. Halili, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what the armed

9 operations that were in your high-rise building in 1992 and 1993 consisted

10 of.

11 A. I didn't understand the question.

12 Q. Mrs. Halili, in response to the last question that Ms. Pilipovic

13 asked you, you indicated that there were, in the skyscrapers where you

14 lived, the high-rise buildings, armed operations, in the part -- in this

15 part of the city.

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you were referring to,

18 please.

19 A. I was referring to the 11 Blue who attacked, and when our

20 neighbourhood was shelled.

21 Q. And which forces did that attacking?

22 A. Chetniks were attacking us because they wanted to take hold of the

23 square. When the 11 Blue attacked, they wanted to take possession of the

24 square because they wanted to cut Sarajevo in two, that is, to take the

25 left bank of the Miljacka.

Page 2764

1 Q. Mrs. Halili, with reference to the man who helped you put your

2 mother into the Golf after she was shot, when did you first notice that

3 person?

4 A. That was the first time I saw him in my life.

5 Q. Mrs. Halili, in response to an earlier question asked by

6 Ms. Pilipovic at page 23, line 1, you indicated: "I was in the BH army."

7 Do you remember saying that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you a soldier or were you a civilian employee?

10 A. I worked in the logistics, that is, worked in the kitchen, and I

11 distributed food to the soldiers.

12 Q. Did you wear a military uniform as part of those responsibilities?

13 A. No.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

15 questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

17 One of my colleagues. Judge Nieto-Navia?

18 I have one more, perhaps two more questions for you, Mrs. Halili.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ORIE: You have several times mentioned the 11 Blue. Could

21 you explain to me what you mean by 11 Blue?

22 A. It is a coffee bar. It is a coffee bar, a tavern, which is called

23 11 Blue.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You also mentioned that this attack on the 11 Blue

25 took place in October 1992; is that correct?

Page 2765












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2766

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Were there later on any similar attacks where --

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that the actual fighting -- I'm not

5 talking about some shooting now and then, but the actual fighting in

6 October 1992, was that the last time that there was an attempt to take

7 over part of this area of the town by the Serbians?

8 A. That was the last time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer. Mrs. Halili, this

10 concludes your examination as a witness. This Court is fully aware of how

11 difficult it must have been for you, not only to make the very long

12 journey but also to be questioned about events which are very emotional

13 for you. We fully understand that, and we thank you very much for coming,

14 and by giving answers to the questions of the Court and the parties, to

15 provide us with information which is of importance for our considerations

16 and for the decisions we'll have to take. Therefore, I thank you once

17 again very much for coming. I wish you a good journey home, together with

18 your husband. Thank you very much.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher will now show you out of the courtroom.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the admission into evidence is concerned,

23 as far as I can see, we have two documents tendered into evidence, the

24 first one being P1340, which is a death certificate.

25 THE REGISTRAR: And P1340.1, the English translation of the death

Page 2767

1 certificate.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since there is no objection, they are admitted

3 into evidence. Then we have P3260, if I'm correct, Madam Registrar, a map

4 which was marked during both the examination-in-chief and during

5 cross-examination by the witness. That's admitted into evidence as well,

6 then.

7 Mr. Mundis, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is, Mr. President. Mr. Ierace will be taking

9 the next witness for the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have some observation to make before we

12 proceed?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

14 very much. We were talking about exhibits and I believe I heard that the

15 Registrar, every fortnight or so, went through the list of exhibits, and

16 I'm afraid I did not see if the updated list was in our pigeonhole, so I

17 wonder if we could have it, just to avoid any problems?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please inform us about the

19 update?

20 THE REGISTRAR: I will provide you with a copy of both exhibit

21 lists tomorrow.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you from the bottom of

23 my heart. And I should like to take this opportunity, Mr. President, to

24 say that on various occasions Defence requested the assistance of a legal

25 assistant, legal counsel in the court, in order to help us to better

Page 2768

1 systematise our work. However, we have received no reply, and I therefore

2 have to reiterate our request.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm working on what should be decided on this.

4 I'll try to get -- this Chamber tries to get the proper information and we

5 will come back to it soon. It's not forgotten.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Ierace, since there are no other practical

9 matters, Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the next witness? That will

10 be, Mr. Ierace?

11 MR. IERACE: Ramiz Velic, Mr. President, and his evidence relates

12 to incident 19 under the sniping schedule.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Velic, can you hear me?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

16 JUDGE ORIE: From the answer, I deduce that you even can hear me

17 in a language you understand.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Velic, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

20 require you to make a solemn declaration before your testimony. The text

21 will be given to you by the usher now. Would you please make that

22 declaration?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The usher will give it to you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 2769

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mr. Velic,

5 you'll first be examined by Mr. Ierace of the Prosecution team who has

6 called you as a witness.

7 Mr. Ierace, you may proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Examined by Mr. Ierace.

10 Q. Sir, would you please tell the Trial Chamber your name for the

11 record?

12 A. My name is Ramiz Velic. My father is Arif, my mother is Huma. I

13 was born on the 10th of July, 1943, in Kalinovik, the village of Ljuta.

14 Q. In November of 1993, were you living in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. What was your occupation?

17 A. I was -- became a car mechanic, but later on, I also learned how

18 to drive, and I was a driver.

19 Q. In November of 1993, what did you drive?

20 A. This particular machine is called an ULT 150. It is a loading

21 ladle which loads things on to trucks.

22 Q. Is that indeed a piece of heavy equipment, sometimes referred to

23 as a front-end loader?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. How long -- I withdraw that. Who employed you to do that, that is

Page 2770

1 to drive the front-end loader?

2 A. My company is called Rad Public Utilities Company, Sarajevo.

3 Q. Since the conflict in Sarajevo commenced in 1992, did you have any

4 duties in relation to the use of that loader and the collection of

5 rubbish?

6 A. Yes, every day.

7 Q. Where did you collect the rubbish from?

8 A. Well, it depended on whether there was more rubbish. Where there

9 would be a lot of it, then our superiors would send us to that particular

10 area.

11 Q. Typically, where would the rubbish be? In other words, would it

12 be in a street, in a park, in a rubbish collection centre? What type of

13 terrain?

14 A. Well, once again, you know, it varied. It depended on the

15 citizenry or on where people lived, where it was accessible, wherever they

16 would -- there were large containers placed and we would arrive there with

17 big trucks, load it into those trucks and take it away, wherever they

18 would deposit their rubbish.

19 Q. How often during 1993 would you collect rubbish?

20 A. Every day. We would be escorted by UNPROFOR if -- or when there

21 was more intensive gunfire or when we went to places which were more

22 dangerous, UNPROFOR would escort us, but we did it every day.

23 Q. When you were escorted by UNPROFOR, was the escort in the form of

24 individuals on foot or in vehicles or what?

25 A. They would always be two APCs of the UN forces, and at times

Page 2771

1 soldiers would get off the APCs on the ground and sometimes they didn't.

2 On that occasion when I was wounded, I did not see them get off their

3 vehicles.

4 Q. Before we come to that occasion, by "APCs," do you mean armoured

5 personnel carriers?

6 A. Yes, that's right, the ones that belonged to the UN forces.

7 Q. Was there anything about their appearance which identified them as

8 being part of the UN forces?

9 A. Yes, by the colour of the vehicle and the kind of clothing they

10 had, if, that is, they got off the vehicles.

11 Q. What was the colour of the vehicles, that is the APCs?

12 A. White, the colour was white, and it had "UN" marked.

13 Q. What were the -- what was the kind of clothing that those forces

14 wore on those occasions when they accompanied you?

15 A. It depended on the troops, what country they came from, because

16 they had different uniforms. Sometimes camouflage uniforms, helmets,

17 bullet-proof vests, things like that, and sidearms, when and if they got

18 off their vehicles.

19 Q. You mentioned a particular occasion. When was that particular

20 occasion, first of all, that you had in mind?

21 A. That was on the 2nd of November, 1993. It was a Tuesday and it

22 was half past 9.00.

23 Q. On that particular occasion, what part of Sarajevo were you in?

24 A. The street was called Ribarska Street, Ivo Lola Ribar Street, at

25 Grbavica. It is a settlement, and it was called the Trg Heroje, or

Page 2772

1 Heroes' Square.

2 Q. Why had you gone to that area?

3 A. In the morning, when I went to work at 7.00, I received a travel

4 order telling me to go and load up some rubbish in Brace Ribara, and when

5 I arrived there with the full vehicles, the FAP vehicles, the locals from

6 the neighbouring houses helped us load up the rubbish. They used shovels

7 and their hands, and so on. So we cleaned up the rubbish. I filled a

8 truckload of this and started loading up the second truck. And I took up

9 one of the loaders and shovels, went to get another one, and when I was

10 reversing in order to reach the truck, I moved away from one of the

11 buildings. I didn't expect any shooting, but that's what happened.

12 Q. All right. Now, would you please describe the front-end loader,

13 in particular, the part where you operated it from.

14 A. Well, it's difficult to describe. It has four wheels. It has a

15 cabin which is raised up above the ground quite a lot. There is the front

16 loader, in front, the loader or shovel in front, and there is a clutch in

17 the cabin and a button or command that you press to go forward or to

18 reverse. That is located on the left-hand side, and you can only move

19 it -- move that clutch with your left hand. On the right-hand side of the

20 cabin there is another door. There's a door on the right. And you have a

21 lever which enables you to lift the loader, empty it, and generally move

22 it around in that way.

23 Q. You said earlier that there was some shooting. What first made

24 you aware that there was some shooting?

25 A. Well, everybody is conscious and aware of shooting. Anybody who

Page 2773

1 was there could see that there was shooting, and there was shooting every

2 day.

3 Q. But you've told us that on this particular occasion you were

4 operating the front-end loader and then there was some shooting. So how

5 did you first become aware, while you were operating the front-end loader,

6 that there was some shooting?

7 A. Yes. On the day that I was wounded, I did not hear the shooting

8 until I was wounded and jumped out of the machine. Because you can hear

9 the noise, actually, from the machine, and the motor. You can hear the

10 motor working. And as I said, while my hand was on the wheel and I was

11 reversing, my hand moved forward. And I didn't actually feel that I had

12 been hit at that particular time. I did this automatically. And I jumped

13 out of the right-hand side of the cabin and took cover. When I was down

14 on the ground, hiding behind the front right tyre, I heard the actual

15 shooting going on, and the sound was similar to when you throw stones on

16 some tin. So that's -- and I saw the bullet holes on the loader, and then

17 I realised that they were actually shooting. And of course, when I saw my

18 hand, I knew what had happened.

19 Q. Mr. Velic, as you gave your answer to the last question, you were

20 indicating with your left hand in a circular motion in front of you.

21 Where was your left hand when you first became aware of shooting?

22 A. In front of the steering wheel. The steering wheel was up here,

23 and as I was moving from this angle, my hand was turned towards Vrace. So

24 I suppose that's how it happened, from up there.

25 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the witness

Page 2774

1 indicates the palm of his hand facing downwards, held in front of his

2 chest at about chest height, and then later in his answer to the question

3 indicated to his right, when he said the words "My hand was turned towards

4 Vrace."

5 Q. You also said earlier that your hand was wounded. Which hand was

6 wounded, your left or your right?

7 A. My left hand.

8 Q. You've told us that you exited the cabin through the right door

9 and took shelter behind your vehicle. From what direction were you

10 protected when you took shelter on that side of your vehicle?

11 A. I was protected from the direction in which the bullets were

12 coming from, Vrace. The tyre shielded me, and the loader itself, in

13 fact. I thought that nothing could happen to me if I crouched down and

14 covered -- and used that for cover, although there was shooting going on.

15 Q. All right. Now, in September of last year, that is, 2001, did you

16 return to the area where you were shot in the company of some

17 investigators and film crew and partake in the making of some video film?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would this be a convenient time to

20 show the video which pertains to this incident? It is Exhibit 3280D, and

21 I think it's the only track on that -- I withdraw that. Yes, that is the

22 exhibit number.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please could the technicians start the video.

24 [Videotape played]

25 INVESTIGATOR: Please stand where you were sitting in your

Page 2775












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2776

1 vehicle, to the best of your recollection, when you were shot.

2 MR. VELIC: [Indicates]

3 INVESTIGATOR: I will now mark that position with yellow spray

4 paint.

5 Please walk to and stand where the rubbish was, to the best of

6 your recollection, on the day that you were shot.

7 MR. VELIC: [Indicates]

8 INVESTIGATOR: Please stand at each end of where you recall the

9 front of the first UNPROFOR vehicle and the back of the second UNPROFOR

10 vehicle were positioned.

11 MR. VELIC: [Indicates]

12 INVESTIGATOR: I will now mark that position with a yellow line.

13 I will now mark this position with a yellow line.


15 Q. Mr. Velic, did you recognise yourself in that video?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. You were given certain directions by the investigator. Did you

18 comply with those directions truthfully and to the best of your

19 recollection?

20 A. Yes, I did comply strictly to the directions. I just didn't show

21 the proper distance between the two UNPROFOR vehicles. They were a little

22 longer, so I apologise for that. The distance might have been greater now

23 that I look back. They took up more space, both these vehicles, more

24 space than I actually thought to begin with.

25 Q. In any event, towards the beginning of the video, when we first

Page 2777

1 saw you standing alongside the investigator and indicating where your

2 vehicle was at the relevant time, which direction was your vehicle facing

3 at the time you were shot? Was it facing directly away from the camera or

4 towards the camera or to one side or what?

5 A. You want me to say where the camera was?

6 Q. No, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Velic. I'll withdraw that

7 question. You may have had some difficulty in following me. I want to

8 ask you where the front-end loader was facing at the time that you were

9 shot. Could you tell us which direction it was facing, having regard to

10 what we have just seen on the video as to the surrounding street scene?

11 A. Yes. You noticed that very well, and let me explain. I have

12 already explained where the rubbish dump was, and so the loader goes

13 first, and then it goes back the way it came, and then moves in a circle

14 towards the right. It is a machine that has a joint. The cabin stays

15 facing one way, whereas the fork and loader can turn round in a circle and

16 then can pick up -- can unload the rubbish. So if you look at it from my

17 left-hand side, my left-hand door was turned towards Vrace. There is a

18 small tree that went there at the time. It was just an open space. But

19 the tree was planted after the country reintegrated.

20 MR. IERACE: All right. We will come back to that. In the

21 meantime, I ask that the witness be shown three photographs, which are

22 P3279DD. It appears that Madam Registrar does not have those. I

23 apologise for that.

24 Q. Mr. Velic, would you please --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

Page 2778

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President I just wish to

2 indicate two things. The first is, as I have already said, the

3 information system does not function perfectly with respect to the disk we

4 have received. Secondly, we have just received this material, which means

5 that it was impossible for us to show General Galic the documents, and

6 this is not the first time that we have confronted -- been confronted with

7 a situation where we are shown documents during the hearing and not

8 beforehand.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if my friend has a problem with those

10 photographs, I withdraw them. I can assure you, Mr. President, that my

11 friend was given notice by letter of the exhibit number. I regret that we

12 have overlooked to provide copies of those photographs. Perhaps at the

13 next break, my friend could indicate to the Trial Chamber whether he has

14 any problem with me continuing with those photographs in

15 examination-in-chief, but at this stage, I withdraw them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So they will now be withdrawn for the moment, as far

17 as I understand. Am I correct in -- when I read what is attached to your

18 letter of the 27th of January, when I look at Ramiz Velic, I do not see

19 any number 3279DD on it. Is that correct or -- let me just look at the

20 letter.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have my case manager with me

22 at the moment. Perhaps when I re-present the photographs, I will invite

23 my friend to indicate if he is disadvantaged by them. I can indicate then

24 which letter advised the Defence of the exhibit number, but I understand

25 they were so advised. I will check that.

Page 2779

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please check that? And so for this

2 moment, I do understand that you withdraw this moment the photographs.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please see whether during the next break,

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether there will be an opportunity to see what -- how

6 important it is to discuss the matter with your client and -- well, we'll

7 see whether there will be an opportunity to -- for you to confer with

8 General Galic, and I will be informed by the Prosecution on when actually

9 it was indicated to the Defence that this exhibit will be used, since

10 there are two issues. The first one is putting the exhibit on the list,

11 and the second issue is providing the Defence with a copy of the

12 document.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. And that's quite distinct from

14 the issue of disclosure. They were disclosed last year.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes of course, yes.

16 MR. IERACE: To assist my learned colleagues, I refer them to the

17 supplemental information sheet, the English version, page 02131847. They

18 will see there some relevant information to those photographs and the

19 taking of the photographs.

20 In the meantime, Mr. President, if may I continue?


22 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown, and might we all view

23 Exhibit 3279 D? That is the 360 degree photograph.

24 Q. Do you recognise the scene in front of you now, Mr. Velic, which

25 for the transcript is a view looking along a road with what appears to be

Page 2780

1 a four-storey-plus-ground-floor building on the right-hand side and a

2 multi-storey series of buildings on the left-hand side?

3 A. Yes, I recognise that.

4 Q. Where is that?

5 A. That's the spot I was wounded, the former Brace Ribara Street. It

6 used to be called the Trg Heroje or Heroes' Square, as I've already

7 indicated.

8 Q. Please pan the image to the left. Pause there for a moment. We

9 now see a T-intersection with a street going off to the left. Do you

10 recognise the area of the T-intersection?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that the area that you indicated on the video which we viewed a

13 few minutes ago, that is the position of the rubbish that you were

14 collecting?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please continue to pan the photograph to the left. You mentioned

17 Vrace in your evidence. If you see Vrace, please indicate that. Please

18 continue to pan the photograph. Pause there for a moment. For the

19 benefit of the transcript we see some trees in silhouette on the foot path

20 and a parking area between two multi-storey buildings, and what appears to

21 be some construction in the distance between the two buildings and also

22 between the trees. Mr. Velic, do you know what area lay behind the trees

23 in the distance? In other words, if you stood on the other side of the

24 trees and looked in the direction away from the camera and between the two

25 buildings, what would you see?

Page 2781

1 A. Well, across the stadium, you could look towards Vrace, and there

2 was the MUP school, the school for MUP.

3 Q. All right. And what is or was MUP?

4 A. The academy for training members of the MUP units.

5 Q. What does "MUP" stand for?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You say it's an academy for training members of MUP units?

8 A. Well, yes.

9 Q. All right. And who graduated from the academy? What -- people in

10 what occupation?

11 A. They were called policemen.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. Before the war, and it's still working now.

14 Q. Are you aware as to where the confrontation lines were

15 approximately -- I withdraw that question. Do you know what side of the

16 confrontation lines the academy was at the time that you were shot?

17 A. The academy was on the side of the former Republika Srpska, their

18 army.

19 Q. What about the stadium at that time?

20 A. And the stadium, but not all of it; just part of the stadium, as

21 far as I heard. I think that part of the stadium was right by the woods

22 and the Tranzit Road.

23 Q. Might we return to the 360-degree photograph, please. Do you

24 remember whether, at the time you were shot, the trees which appear in

25 that photograph on the footpath were there?

Page 2782

1 A. No, they weren't. All the trees were cut down, in the whole of

2 the town, for firewood, and these trees were planted sometime in 1995. I

3 know that they brought in some larger trees first, because I dug the holes

4 and helped the people doing this work. But no, the trees weren't there.

5 MR. IERACE: Please continue panning the photograph to the left.

6 All right. Thank you. That might stop now.

7 Q. Mr. Velic, what were you wearing on that day that you were shot?

8 A. As far as I remember, I was wearing some black corduroy trousers

9 and a leather driver's jacket, the kind that us drivers were issued for

10 winter. I'm not sure whether I had a cap on my head or not. I had a

11 jumper underneath the jacket. It was rather a thick jumper, as far as I

12 remember.

13 Q. What colour was the front-end loader, or colours?

14 A. It was yellow, and all the construction machinery was usually

15 yellow.

16 Q. Had you been shot at on any previous occasion whilst driving a

17 front-end loader and collecting rubbish?

18 A. Yes. It happened on the 1st of November. It was down by the

19 Olympic Games parking. We were also collecting rubbish down there, and

20 also there was UNPROFOR present. There were APCs and soldiers. There

21 were Dutch soldiers. And this other day when I was working, these were

22 Egyptians. So before that day when I was wounded, also collecting

23 rubbish, we also had security. It was from the student hall, from

24 Nedzarici. There were two shots that came. I was facing them. There was

25 a very large loader, 2 metres 70. Two cubic metres of water can fit into

Page 2783

1 that loader. And I, in fact, did not hear the shots, but the young men

2 who were with me, they heard the shots and then they told me -- my

3 nickname is Cigo, and they told me, "Cigo, move away." So the Dutch

4 returned fire, and then the shooting stopped and then we collected the

5 rubbish.

6 Q. You've said that that happened on the 1st of November. In what

7 year?

8 A. Also in 1993.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown three

11 photographs. They're marked P3244, 3245, and 3250.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


14 Q. Mr. Velic, would you please look at the photograph which has

15 marked at the top of it the numbers, in red, top right-hand corner,

16 02065063.

17 MR. IERACE: And for the record, that's P3244.

18 Q. Do you recognise yourself in that photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the time that photograph was taken, were you standing

21 approximately in the area where your vehicle was positioned when you were

22 shot?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It's apparent from the time that this photograph was taken, one

25 can see more of the gap between the two buildings, that is, more towards

Page 2784

1 Vrace. Is that the case? There is less tree cover.

2 A. Yes, quite. Yes.

3 Q. Now, drawing your attention to the gap between the two buildings,

4 do you see what appear to be some stadium lights, that is, a tower

5 with -- top of a tower with --

6 A. Yes. Yes, I can see.

7 Q. You earlier mentioned that the stadium was through there. Is that

8 the case?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. To the right and lower than the top of the lights, there appears

11 to be some concrete construction. What is that building?

12 A. It is the cover of the stadium. This is where the standing area

13 of the stadium is.

14 Q. All right. Now, would you please --

15 A. The stands.

16 Q. Would you please look at the photocopy of that same photograph,

17 and by that I mean a black-and-white photocopy. Do you see some red

18 markings on that photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I think you have written some words on the photograph as well. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you circled yourself and printed your name along that

24 circling?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2785












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Page 2786

1 Q. To the right, and indicated by the letter "B," there appears some

2 writing. What is that writing?

3 A. There is a circle and then there is an arrow, and what I believed

4 to have been the aggressor's positions, the positions of the aggressor.

5 Q. What appears within that red circle that you drew?

6 A. You can see the MUP school there, and also a small field above the

7 Zelja's stadium, above. And what can also be seen is a wood above the

8 stadium.

9 Q. I draw your attention back to the colour photograph, where we have

10 some more detail. In the area that you circled in the black and white,

11 you can see that there are some white, long, what appear to be buildings,

12 and then above and behind them some red buildings. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you indicate, by reference to colours and shape, the MUP

15 academy? And perhaps at the same time you could point to --

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 Q. -- that building on the -- using the metal pointer on the

18 photograph to your right. That way, Mr. Velic, we can all see what you're

19 pointing at.

20 A. Yes. I can't see it very well. Yes, it's here, but I can't see

21 it very well.

22 Q. All right. Can you see --

23 A. Just a moment. Just a moment. Yes, this is it. Yes, this is

24 where it was.

25 Q. All right. Now, would you please look at photograph -- the

Page 2787

1 remaining photograph, which, for the record, is P3250. Does that appear

2 to be a telephoto of the photograph you've just been looking at?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. IERACE: Now, perhaps, Mr. Usher, you could place that

5 photograph on the -- it is already on the ELMO?

6 Q. Mr. Velic, could you turn now to the copy of that photograph to

7 your right on the machine, and are you able to point out in that

8 photograph the MUP academy?

9 A. There. Approximately there.

10 Q. Are you indicating the building immediately behind the tree and to

11 the top of the collection of buildings which are visible; indeed, the top

12 building? Is that the one you mean to indicate?

13 A. Yes, this long building there. Yes, there is a whole line of

14 buildings there, MUP buildings.

15 Q. All right. Now, would you please take a marker -- blue marker?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you use the blue marker, yes?

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. And would you carefully outline the buildings which were the

19 academy, and if you like, so that you have the benefit of colour, you

20 might also refer to the photograph -- the other photograph which shows you

21 standing on the road with your hands on your hips.

22 Mr. Velic, have you marked the photograph yet with the blue

23 marker?

24 A. Not yet.

25 Q. All right. Take your time.

Page 2788

1 A. Yes. I can do it. [Marks]

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Might those photographs be

4 returned? Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Velic, during the conflict, were there cease-fires from time to

6 time?

7 A. Yes. When something like that happened, this news happened, when

8 cease-fires happened, we were very happy, but they were not really

9 observed.

10 Q. Do you remember what the situation is in relation to the day you

11 were wounded, that is whether or not there was a cease-fire?

12 A. I'm not sure.

13 Q. Now, in what area of Sarajevo were you living in November of

14 1992?

15 A. From 1992 -- sorry, from 1962, I have been working -- living in

16 Cengic Vila, it's an area.

17 Q. In what street?

18 A. It is Bulevar Mese Selimovica 33.

19 Q. Was there an incident which occurred in November of 1992, close to

20 where you live, involving a shelling?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were you at that time?

23 A. Well, it was -- I believe it was summer. There was a shop, it was

24 a hair-dressing shop in our building, and we often -- the men from the

25 neighbourhood came there to chat, and also those who were just passing by,

Page 2789

1 and my eldest son was there as well. There were quite a few of us from

2 the building, there were young people, and the shell hit, and we all had

3 this instinct to rush to the site, to see whether someone had been

4 wounded. So we all went there, including the young people, and my son

5 went there, and I tried to stop him because they say often if one shell

6 falls, another one will follow. So because there were also lower

7 buildings next to the Miljacka River.

8 Q. If I can just ask to you pause there for a moment, what season do

9 you think it was?

10 A. Summer, I think, I believe it was summer.

11 Q. Of what year?

12 A. In 1992.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. In 1992.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

17 Q. Was the building where you lived one that had a number of storeys

18 to it?

19 A. Yes. It has 17 floors.

20 Q. At any stage during the conflict, was there a period when you did

21 not have running water in the apartment? That is in your apartment?

22 A. Of course. This was throughout the conflict. We had shortage of

23 water, electricity, heating.

24 Q. Were there elevators in the apartment block?

25 A. Yes. The lifts existed. There was one for odd and even floors

Page 2790

1 each, but of course they did not work.

2 Q. Was that because of a lack of electricity, they didn't work?

3 A. Yes. Of course. The entire city had no electricity.

4 Q. You said that throughout the apartment block, the 17 storeys, 17

5 floors, rather, that there was no running water. How did you and your

6 fellow occupants, your neighbours, obtain water?

7 A. We had -- we took canisters with us to where there was a water

8 collection point, and as that happened, we had to go all the way to the

9 brewery, which is about two, three kilometres perhaps in one way, and then

10 whoever was brave would go to the Miljacka River and would fetch water

11 from the river for bathroom purposes, sanitary purposes, but we somehow

12 managed.

13 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to take you back to the incident

14 where you were wounded, and the photograph that you viewed on your

15 computer screen, and indeed, the photographs that you've seen in front of

16 you. On the computer screen and in the photographs that were placed in

17 front of you, you've seen a view towards Vrace, in particular a gap

18 between two high-rise buildings as viewed from the position where your

19 vehicle was at the time you were shot. You agree with that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At the time you were shot, what part of your vehicle faced that

22 gap between the two buildings?

23 A. The left side, where the door is. That's the only side you can

24 get in through, because on the right-hand side, you had all the control

25 for the lever, for the loader. There were only just two commands. So

Page 2791

1 it's hard to get in on that side. It's the left side that was facing.

2 Q. You explained to us the position of your hand at the time that it

3 was hit. What was immediately alongside your hand in that position, to

4 the left? In other words, what part of the vehicle, if any?

5 A. Well, I can explain it. Say that this represents a steering

6 wheel, and the steering wheel was in the height of my chest, so about this

7 height.

8 Q. Mr. Velic, if I could just stop you for a moment, please, we

9 cannot all see what it is that you are showing with the cord, so we will

10 approach it in a different way.

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. All right. You've told us that you were in the cabin of the

13 front-end loader when you were shot; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. You told us that there was a door to your left and a door to your

16 right; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was the door immediately to the left, that is the door area or the

19 door space, immediately to the left of your left hand at the time that you

20 were shot?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Was there any opening in the door or was it entirely constructed

23 of solid material?

24 A. No. The cabin is entirely made of tin. I'm not quite sure how

25 thick it is, possibly .2 millimetres, but it is a double construction, the

Page 2792

1 frames, and considering that one, the person who is operating the machine,

2 has to have a good view, the cabin itself and the door are mostly made of

3 glass or a type of plastified glass which was a usual thing. This is what

4 we did in our workshops.

5 Q. All right. And apart from the glass, was there any other material

6 used in the construction of the door? In other words, was the door

7 entirely glass or partly glass, normally?

8 A. It's the door like any other door. It had a frame and then there

9 is the -- it's the glass is framed by a frame. It is on the photograph.

10 And since there was no glass, but plexiglass, and then it tore, it broke,

11 so the glass broke and so we had to put plexiglass, but both the front and

12 the back screens were the sort of reinforced glass.

13 Q. When you opened the door, from a position of being inside the

14 cabin, did the door open outwards or inwards?

15 A. Outwards. Both doors opened outwards.

16 Q. And when the door swung out, would you be swinging out a frame

17 which consisted entirely within the frame of plexiglass or was there some

18 other material as well?

19 A. Just that part of the plexiglass frame is opened.

20 Q. All right. What about the lower part of the door? What was that

21 made from?

22 A. The lower part of the door is just tin, about 25 centimetres, not

23 very high. That's what the tin is. On some vehicles, it was also glass

24 but I cannot remember. It was normally plexiglass but I don't think so.

25 So the door is entirely made of this -- this plexiglass.

Page 2793

1 Q. Are you able to say whether the bullet that hit your hand came

2 through a doorway or a different part of the cabin?

3 A. I think the bullet came on the frame between the front screen and

4 the door, through the tin, and through the plexiglas, at the height of the

5 steering wheel and my hand, right in the corner.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown

7 Exhibit P1806.

8 Q. Mr. Velic, do you recognise that document which is in front of you

9 now?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is it?

12 A. Yes, I do. It is a letter of discharge from the hospital.

13 Q. When did you first see that document?

14 A. When I was discharged from the hospital, I had it with me.

15 Q. How did you come to have it? Did someone give it to you? Who

16 gave it to you?

17 A. As I was being discharged from hospital, I was given this

18 document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Just to

21 make sure, because we received the same document in Serbian, two copies,

22 and I don't know whether that's normal. We have two of them attached, in

23 Serbian, and I do not have the impression that the -- possibly there

24 is -- one copy is missing, because we have two copies with the same text,

25 in Serbian, apparently. This is just to make sure, Mr. President.

Page 2794

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I see a difference between the two Serbian

2 copies, which is not on the text, but as far as the signature is

3 concerned. So I don't know whether this would clarify the issue. I'm

4 also looking to Mr. Ierace. I see on the right bottom part of the second

5 page of the Serbian version, which seems to be a copy of the same document

6 as on the first page, that there is a signature, or at least some

7 handwriting, which, at least for me, makes the two copies distinct. And I

8 can imagine that since it's just the signature that's different, that

9 there's just one translation. If that's the ...

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We can

11 see the same number, in fact. And I'm trying to be very specific. We can

12 see the same ERN number at the bottom of the page, the same number again,

13 00284231, and then the same number on the second. But as you can see, one

14 has a signature and the other one doesn't. So I'm not sure whether we are

15 talking about the same document.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, am I right in understanding that the

17 first page and the second page are the same document, one of them with

18 some handwriting, signatures on it and the other not?

19 MR. IERACE: You are, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's the same document in different versions, one

21 with, one without handwriting in the ...

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just for

23 clarity's sake: From the transcript -- how come that we have the same

24 number, if that is not exactly the same thing?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would it be possible that the

Page 2795












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2796

1 number was on the original document both at the moment when it was not

2 signed yet, and perhaps later on, when it was signed? Your question

3 suggests that the number in the bottom, 00284231, is a number which has

4 been put on the document by the Prosecution. And perhaps we'll first

5 clarify whether this is true or not. I mean, if it's a -- well, it's a

6 hospital number or something like that, then of course it would be totally

7 different.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've been patiently listening to my

9 learned colleague. Perhaps at this stage I could say a few words that

10 might clarify the situation.


12 MR. IERACE: My friend has been served with some statements from

13 this witness --


15 MR. IERACE: -- including a statement dated the 12th of November,

16 1995. Attached to that statement is the second version of this medical

17 report.


19 MR. IERACE: By "second version," I mean the second copy.


21 MR. IERACE: The statement to which I refer in English contains

22 the ERN number 00361059, and it goes through to 00361064. And indeed,

23 that last page is this document.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So the numbering -- am I right in understanding that

25 the numbering at the bottom of the page is not the Prosecution's

Page 2797

1 numbering, or at least these are not the ERN numbers?

2 MR. IERACE: I don't know, Mr. President. I can assure you that

3 the number at the top identifies it as being part of that statement which

4 was served on my -- on the Defence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It's one of our problems, is that the Chamber is

6 provided with the first page with a sticker on it, and I'm afraid that it

7 just hides the -- perhaps the ERN number, which might be under the

8 sticker. But I don't know --

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.


11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's just one other observation

13 that I would make at this stage, that the copy which bears the ERN number

14 to which I've just referred, that is, the copy which was part of the

15 statement of the 12th of November, 1995, bears signatures in the bottom

16 right-hand corner which I think can be assisted by evidence from the

17 witness. But I note the time.


19 MR. IERACE: Would it be convenient if --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would please clarify it. If, of course,

21 from the written statement of the witness, this problem in the

22 written -- in the previous statement of the witness, this problem would

23 find its clarification, if that would be true, then we would have lost

24 five minutes for almost nothing. If it's not true, you perfectly are

25 justified to raise the issue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you could please be

Page 2798

1 brief, then -- since we are about at having a break.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but the

3 Defence does not know whether these numbers are ERN numbers. But perhaps

4 we could just have some answers from the Prosecution, because that's what

5 we would like to have, some answers about this.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do that during the break. I'll pay some

7 further attention to it as well.

8 We'll then have a break until 10 minutes to 1.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Although I have some hesitation to ask what the

12 results were of any communication outside of court, would you,

13 nevertheless, Mr. Ierace, inform the Chamber, and would you please listen

14 carefully, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I've made some inquiries

16 with my case manager as to the numbers which came up for discussion just

17 before the break. This is the picture which emerges. The number which

18 appears at the bottom of the medical report, that is 00284231, is an ERN

19 number. When a document first comes into the possession of the evidence

20 unit, it receives an ERN number. If it is taken out and some further

21 markings are made to a photocopy of that document, then it receives an

22 additional ERN number. One may deduce from the existence of these two

23 numbers, that the first number in time, that is the first ERN number,

24 which was placed on the document, was quite clearly 00284231. At a later

25 point, it was signed by the witness, and that appears at the bottom

Page 2799

1 right-hand corner of the second copy. That is consistent with it becoming

2 part of the statement to which I earlier referred, that is the statement

3 of the witness which was dated the 12th of November, 1995. At that point,

4 it then acquired a second ERN number, which appears at the top right-hand

5 corner. That is 00361064. That is a consecutive number immediately

6 following on to the statement of that date in November, 1995.

7 So, Mr. President, that's the explanation for the two ERN numbers

8 and the additional signatures which appear on the document. In a few

9 moments, I will ask some questions of the witness in relation to the

10 signature down the bottom.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is that -- is

12 everything clear to you or are there still questions remaining in this

13 respect?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

15 floor, Mr. President. Yes. It does clear up a lot of things. However,

16 perhaps I might make a suggestion, that in the future, when there are two

17 ERN numbers on the same document, as is the case with the second page

18 here, because the second number -- or rather the first one is invalid, so

19 it should be indicated in some way, maybe be deleted, struck out or

20 something should be done with it so as to avoid any future problems, so

21 the Defence could know with what it is dealing with.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... valid any more.

23 Yes, then may I ask you a few questions?

24 MR. IERACE: Sorry, Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting,

25 but I should correct something that you just said. It is still valid, of

Page 2800

1 course, because there are two different versions of the document. There

2 is the document which first came into the evidence unit and then the copy

3 which was used for a different purpose. That is signed by the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But of course the validity has another meaning.

5 MR. IERACE: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But at least to make clear what the numbers are, old

7 numbers, new numbers and for what reasons.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I would have a few more questions to you in this

10 respect, Mr. Ierace. In the facsimile letter of the 24th of January, you

11 indicate that one of the exhibits to be tendered would be ERN number

12 00284230. That's the number preceding the number on the lower part.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have that letter to hand, but

14 if that's the case, then that would appear to be a mistake. It should

15 have been 4231.


17 MR. IERACE: I don't think we have an exhibit which bears that ERN

18 number.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So then I assume that it is a mistake, that 0 and 1

20 have been confused.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll certainly make some inquiries to

22 confirm that, but I can assure you that I don't intend to tender through

23 this witness an exhibit which bears that ERN number.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And then I may draw your attention to the list

25 attached to your letter of the 27th of January, 2002, where it is

Page 2801

1 indicated four times that the exhibits which will be used in relation to

2 Witness Ramiz Velic are dealing with sniping incident number 5. May I

3 understand that this is sniping incident number 19?

4 MR. IERACE: Yes. That arises because this was initially sniping

5 incident number 5, and when the indictment was amended with some changes

6 to the schedule, indeed because of changes to the schedule, it became

7 number 19. I apologise for that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand that. One of the reasons I'm

9 mentioning it is that, again, I'd like to emphasise that great precision

10 will save us a lot of time.

11 Then please proceed.

12 MR. IERACE: One remaining issue, Mr. President, I would be

13 grateful if my learned colleagues would indicate simply whether they have

14 an objection to me using the photographs of the vehicle. If they do have

15 a problem, I won't use them.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understand

17 that Mr. Ierace said that he was withdrawing this exhibit, so I just

18 wonder if it is withdrawn or it's not. I don't think one can say, "I

19 withdraw it," "I don't," "I do," "I don't."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before the break, Mr. Ierace said that for that

21 moment - that's how I understood it and that's how I repeated it - that

22 for that moment, he has withdrawn any questioning on the photographs in

23 order to give you the opportunity to see whether you would still object

24 after you had studied them more thoroughly during the break. So the

25 question now is whether you are still objecting.

Page 2802

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I just have a moment to

2 consult with my colleague, please?

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Only as an exception, and only

5 this time, we shall accept it, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, there is no objection against the use of

7 those photographs. Please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Mr. Velic, you still have in front of you, I think, a document --

10 a photocopy, and you said the first time you saw the document was when you

11 were in hospital. When you left hospital -- I withdraw that. Did you

12 understand the document to relate to your treatment?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Did you understand the document to have -- did you understand the

15 document to have come from the hospital?

16 A. Why, yes, because I was issued it there.

17 Q. Would you please turn to the second page of the bundle? At the

18 top right-hand corner, you should be able to see the numbers 00361064

19 [Realtime transcript read in error "00361061"]. Do you see that number on

20 the top, right-hand corner, at the very top, right-hand corner?

21 A. Yes, I see it.

22 Q. At the very bottom of the page, there appears to be a number of

23 signatures. Do you recognise any of those signatures?

24 A. In the lower right corner is my signature. In the other one, the

25 one which is very small, I don't know. Doctors', I presume.

Page 2803

1 Q. Did you sign --

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Sorry, Mr. Ierace. For the transcript, line

3 70 -- page 70, line 4, says "1061," and I think that is 1064.

4 MR. IERACE: That's correct. I'll just correct that, Your

5 Honour. In fact, I don't think we need to put it to the witness. That

6 should read 00361064. Thank you.

7 Q. Did you sign -- did you place your signature on that document at

8 the time that you made a statement on the 12th of November, 1995?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. IERACE: Might that be returned and might the witness be shown

12 Exhibit P3279DD.

13 Q. Do you have before you now three photographs?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. The top photograph, I think, shows a front-end loader; is that

16 correct?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I'd really like

19 to be precise here, because I see that these have numbers 23, 24, and 26.

20 Is there a reason for that or not, or is it simply that we waste a little

21 bit of time? As I'm saying, there are two consecutive numbers and then we

22 don't have 25. It goes on to 26.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... tendered into

24 evidence, and there might be, I understand, a 25 as well, just as there

25 might be a 27 or a 22 or a 21. So I think it's your intention to tender

Page 2804

1 three photos. Yes. That's clear.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. And Mr. Piletta-Zanin will see

3 the remainder of the photographs in the disclosure in October of 2001.

4 Q. Mr. Velic, do you recognise yourself in that photograph? Please

5 look to your right.

6 A. Yes, I do recognise myself.

7 Q. What is the vehicle in which you are seated in the photograph?

8 A. That is the vehicle that we call ULT, I mean the loader, the

9 vehicle that I was in when I was wounded.

10 Q. Do you mean by that it was that type of vehicle you were in when

11 you were wounded or it was that very same vehicle which appears in the

12 photograph?

13 A. Well, my company has only this one vehicle of this type, and I was

14 driving it that day when I was wounded.

15 Q. Immediately behind the cabin there appears to be an air vent. Do

16 you see that object? It appears to be a circular --

17 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.

18 Q. Immediately below the air vent there appear to be some

19 indentations on the side of the front-end loader. Do you know how those

20 indentations came to be there?

21 A. Well, this is from bullets. It was all done by bullets which

22 perforated this tin plate. And then here and here, these Plexiglas panes

23 that we talked about. And this is the frame, and you can also see it here

24 beneath the door and over there too.

25 Q. Would you please go to the second of the group of three

Page 2805












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2806

1 photographs, which shows you seated in your cabin with the door in the

2 closed position. In that photograph, do you see in greater detail the

3 indentations around the cabin?

4 A. Yes. Now, you can see these here around the cabin and the doors

5 and the frame here, the frame of the door, and here. Yes, you can see it

6 all.

7 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the witness just

8 indicated the frame which appears between, on the right-hand side, one

9 large glass area, and on the left-hand side, two glass areas, that is, the

10 vertical frame between the two areas of glass. He then indicated the area

11 immediately beneath the glass areas and then the area to the right of the

12 cabin, showing some indentations.

13 Q. Mr. Velic, how many of those indentations were a result of fire

14 that you received at the time you were shot?

15 A. As regards the tin plate and these panes, all this is new, because

16 my colleagues told me -- I spent a long time in that hospital, and they

17 changed it all. They said there were 64 holes on the loader itself.

18 Q. You pointed out a number of indentations in the metalwork on the

19 side of the cabin and around the cabin, and you have explained that those

20 indentations were made by bullets hitting the front-end loader. How many

21 of those indentations made by bullets were, in fact, made at the time that

22 you were shot?

23 A. Well, I can't say, because -- may I show it here? It was these

24 bullets here, at an angle, and this glass here is new. And it was bullets

25 coming from here that hit me. It could have been the early bullets which

Page 2807

1 hit me, and I simply flew out of the door and then I hid, as I said,

2 behind the front right tyre. But I cannot really say when I was hit

3 exactly. I didn't hear it. Because, you see, we have an open engine, so

4 it's very noisy, and I couldn't hear it. But all I could hear as I was

5 hiding was as if somebody was stoning, throwing stones at it. I mean,

6 that's all I can say.

7 Q. Were any of those indentations on the front-end loader before you

8 drove to that area that day to collect the rubbish?

9 A. No. No. Surely not. No.

10 Q. All right. Then having regard not just to the moment that you

11 were shot but that whole episode on that particular day during which you

12 were shot, were all of those indentations caused by bullets hitting the

13 vehicle at that time, or only some of them?

14 A. All this here, indentations, were made that same day, because the

15 tyres were also destroyed completely, and they replaced them whilst I was

16 in the hospital, in order to be able to drive this vehicle at all.

17 Q. Apart from having to have the tyres replaced because of fire

18 received on that occasion, and apart from the coverings in the door frame

19 and other glass areas, did any other part of the front-end loader have to

20 be replaced, as you understand it, because of fire received on that

21 occasion?

22 A. Yes, that's true. You can see this handle here, and this is the

23 hydraulic reservoir which allows you to lift and lower down the ladle and

24 close it. And this reservoir has a carrying capacity of 210 litres, and

25 there is something here that's a kind of measurement. But it was all

Page 2808

1 punched through. They could not weld it. I think they had to find

2 another reservoir.

3 Q. In relation to the indentations that you've pointed out earlier,

4 they don't appear to be, at the point that the photograph was taken, holes

5 which completely penetrated the metal skin. Was that the case on the

6 day? In other words, have there been any repairs made to those

7 indentations as we see them now in the photographs?

8 A. No, no repairs. Nothing was welded here. And I could do it if I

9 were given a piece of paper. If something passes through tin plate, then

10 there are these sharp edges around it, and all they tried to do was apply

11 a hammer to smooth a little a bit. And if there was a large hole, then

12 perhaps they applied the machine here and there, perhaps. Perhaps this

13 one, this large indentation, perhaps it was touched up a little, but not

14 those smaller ones, not those around the upper ones and those down there.

15 Q. Would you now please look at the third photograph, and after you

16 have looked at it carefully, might it be placed on the ELMO? Would you

17 describe what appears in that photograph, please, Mr. Velic?

18 A. Yes. You can see the cabin, and you can see those which I

19 mentioned before, perforated we would say, punched holes. These ones.

20 These ones are small so something was done about them, but these were too

21 big, simply, to be repaired, and they were left as they were, and the door

22 is open.

23 Q. Immediately beneath the handle, there appears to be a hole. Do

24 you see that?

25 A. I do.

Page 2809

1 Q. Could you please point it out?

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. All right. Was that hole made during the episode when you were

4 shot?

5 A. Yes, yes. And that was the effect.

6 Q. Again, going on the photograph, there appears to be a slightly

7 raised edge around the hole. Do you see that?

8 A. This here?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. That, you mean?

11 Q. Yes. Would you please go -- I'll withdraw that. Towards the top

12 of the photograph, and in particular the frame around the top sheet of

13 glass, do you see what appears to be another hole puncture? And if you

14 see such a thing, would you please point to it?

15 A. There is this here in this lower frame, yes.

16 Q. Was that caused during the episode when you were shot?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief,

19 thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

21 Is the Defence ready for cross-examination? Please proceed, then,

22 Ms. Pilipovic.

23 Mr. Velic, you will now be questioned by Ms. Pilipovic, who is on

24 the Defence team.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

Page 2810

1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Velic.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. You have told us that you lived at Cengic Vila. Could you tell us

4 is Mese Selimovica Street still called that or does it have a new name?

5 A. Its name now is the Mese Selimovica Bulevar.

6 Q. And what was its name before?

7 A. I can't remember. They changed the name a long time ago. It was

8 called the 6th Proletarian Brigade Street.

9 Q. Thank you. How far was your workplace from where you lived?

10 A. Well, my company was located in Blagoje Parovic Street, which

11 means a couple of minutes on foot. It took me several minutes to walk

12 there.

13 Q. How long were you working with the ULT 150 front-loader vehicle?

14 A. Since 1972.

15 Q. In 1992, 1993 and 1994, did you drive this particular front

16 loader?

17 A. In 1992 and 1993, yes, I did, up until the time I was wounded, but

18 in 1994 and 1995, I was on sick leave.

19 Q. In 1992 and 1993, did your -- did you have a work obligation in --

20 within your company?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us whether, apart from collecting the rubbish in

23 town with your front-loader vehicle, whether you ever used it for any

24 other purposes, except for loading up rubbish?

25 A. Up until I was wounded, I had a work obligation to dig trenches,

Page 2811

1 to help the soldiers in the Bosnian army dig trenches. So that's what I

2 did with my loader because that was one of my duties, assigned me by the

3 civil defence authorities.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please, which localities you went to with your

5 front loader in 1992, to dig trenches?

6 A. No, not with the front loader. I went to do this manual work. I

7 did it by hand.

8 Q. Yes. I understand. You had -- you had a machine?

9 A. No, I didn't. I had a pick and shovel.

10 Q. I see. So if I understand you correctly, you did not use your

11 front loader to dig trenches?

12 A. No, no. I didn't. We just used a pick and shovel, and we would

13 go off during the night, one by one, to do the work.

14 Q. On the 20 -- I apologise, let me just check the date. In

15 November, when you were wounded, could you tell me, please, what route you

16 took from your company location to the place or rather the Brace Ribara

17 Street?

18 A. Yes, I'll be happy to do so. It's quite easy. If I had a map,

19 this would help me. If you're well acquainted with the town, then my

20 company is located in Blagoje Parovic Street towards the bakery, and you

21 cross the bridge at Malta. We didn't dare go straight ahead so we had to

22 go down the Miljacka River and then right into Brace Ribara Street.

23 Q. Thank you. In 1992 and 1993, how often did you come into that

24 part of town? When I say "how often," was it every week or every month,

25 and if so, how many times a week and how many times a month?

Page 2812

1 A. Well, as it was -- there was shooting going on, I didn't go out,

2 so that was the first day that I went to that locality to clear up the

3 rubbish.

4 Q. When you were given your assignment to go to that particular spot,

5 did you know whether there were any soldiers in that part of town and

6 whether you knew about a confrontation line anywhere there or a front

7 line? Do you know where the front line went?

8 A. Well, we thought that the front line was Vrace. That we knew.

9 Now, how far down below that it went, I don't know, the front line. But I

10 didn't know there were any soldiers there, no. I knew that our army was

11 there but that was further off. That was quite a long way off.

12 Q. Did you know whether, at the spot you parked your loader to load

13 up the rubbish, whether there were any soldiers in that part of town, in

14 that locality?

15 A. No. As far as I know, there weren't. I don't really know because

16 it was the first time I had gone there. I don't think there was, no.

17 Q. Thank you. When you explained to us the locality on the

18 photograph and you pointed out the MUP school, the police academy, could

19 you tell us, please, looking at the spot you were wounded at, and the area

20 you thought you were shot at, could you tell us the distance between where

21 you were wounded from the direction in which the shot was fired or the

22 place from which the shot was fired? Could you give us a rough estimate

23 of the distance?

24 A. Well, let me explain this to you in greater length -- at greater

25 length. When I went to hospital, when I was wounded, as the machine was

Page 2813

1 destroyed, the vehicle was destroyed, its wheels and its tyres - my

2 colleagues told me that from work when I left hospital, they said that the

3 machine had been destroyed - they also told me that some French - what

4 were they called - small APCs, with very precise optic sights, precision

5 optic sights, and that they helped them pull the vehicle out and replace

6 the tyres on the loader, and then they took the loader back to our

7 company, and that the soldiers, the UN French troops, there was a driver

8 with them, one of our people who knew French, who could speak French well,

9 and they said that looking through this optic sight, they saw a sniper

10 nest to the right of the MUP, lower down in the meadow, and that they

11 could have shot and targeted that sniper nest had they had orders to do

12 so. But as they did not have orders, they didn't shoot, but they said

13 that it was 350 metres as the crow flies. That's what they said, at

14 least.

15 Q. So you have just told us that the distance -- that is to say that

16 an UNPROFOR team went to the spot where the incident had taken place and

17 made a report with respect to the incident?

18 A. Yes, because without UNPROFOR's help we would not have been able

19 to pull out the loader. It was a dangerous spot. It was constantly -- it

20 could constantly have been targeted. So they helped us to pull out the

21 front loader, and I suppose they didn't dare shoot on that second day

22 because they knew what they had done the previous day.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you hear whether they had drawn up a report about

24 the incident and whether they had ascertained the direction and place that

25 the bullet had come from? Do you happen to know?

Page 2814

1 A. All I know is what my colleagues and what my boss told me and what

2 Alija told me. I know nothing about the minutes or the report that was

3 drawn up. I don't know anything about that, whether they did or didn't.

4 Q. After you left hospital, did you personally, or any of your fellow

5 workers, report the incident to any of the authorities in Sarajevo?

6 A. I didn't. Now, whether my work organisation did or not, I don't

7 know. It was wartime, you see, so I didn't ask for any damages or

8 anything. In fact, my company didn't pay in their -- the insurance fees.

9 You didn't know whether you'd be alive today and dead tomorrow, what, so

10 you couldn't think about things like that.

11 Q. Mr. Velic, on photograph 3244 --

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And I should like to ask the usher

13 to show the witness photograph 3244, please.

14 Q. Mr. Velic, on this photograph, where you can see yourself, you

15 said that behind the white apartment block is the Grbavica stadium?

16 A. It's not the stadium. It's the MUP school, and I have marked

17 that. So it's the area around the MUP school, whereas the stadium is in

18 this greenery here and you can't see it from the woods and leaves, and

19 down below, you have the stands.

20 Q. Can you tell us the following? The stands that you can see here,

21 do you happen to know whether this part, the stands, was the front line

22 there, and if so, whose army manned it?

23 A. Well, this is the first time that I came this close during the

24 war. I was quite close when I was digging trenches during the night, but

25 that was the first time ever during those war years that I came to that

Page 2815












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2816

1 spot, and when there was fighting at the Grbavica stadium, I know that

2 quite a lot of soldiers died during the battle at this auxiliary stadium

3 which was over here, whereas the front line, which I knew they held, was

4 higher up and seemed to sort of stretch transversely. That's what I was

5 told. I wasn't interested in it myself.

6 Q. As far as I was able to understand, fighting was going on for

7 control of the stadium; is that right? Could you tell us when this was?

8 A. I think it was in 1992 but I'm not quite sure. Perhaps October.

9 Q. May we agree, then, that the area where you can see the stands was

10 the area which was under the control of the BH Army?

11 A. No, it was not. There was a road here and a tram. That certainly

12 wasn't.

13 Q. Did you go to the spot yourself and see it or do you just happen

14 to know on the basis of what you heard?

15 A. Only on the basis of what I heard from others, but I didn't go

16 myself. I didn't go further than this corner myself. I didn't go that

17 way at all.

18 Q. Mr. Velic, when you said that you had come from where your company

19 was located to the spot where you loaded up the rubbish, could you tell

20 us, please, whether on that particular day there was any fighting going

21 on?

22 A. Well, it was in the morning. I left at around 9.00 a.m., and you

23 could hear something here and there. Whether there was a ceasefire of

24 any -- a lull, I don't know.

25 Q. How often would you cross the bridge that you said was called

Page 2817

1 Malta?

2 A. Up until then, not once. I would bypass it, because it was a

3 dangerous area. The bridge was a danger point. After I left hospital

4 until I had been -- and I didn't cross the bridge at all until I had been

5 wounded. I had no need to cross it.

6 Q. You've just said that it was dangerous to go towards the

7 Elektroprivreda building. What do you mean? Were there any soldiers on

8 the Elektroprivreda building?

9 A. Well, I don't really know, but it was an open space from Vrace,

10 and whenever you had these wide open spaces, you were wide open to sniper

11 fire. So people would put up some blankets or cloth, curtains, to sort of

12 shield the area off.

13 Q. When you said "blankets," could you explain to us where the

14 blankets were set up? Were they on the side of the Elektroprivreda

15 building?

16 A. Yes, but they were also put up at the spot where I was wounded.

17 There were blankets there too. They were stretched this way. There was a

18 wire from this balcony hinged up to that balcony there, and then they put

19 some blankets over the wire. But I was there for a very short space of

20 time. I was wounded.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would you think it appropriate, for

23 the benefit of the transcript, for the areas which the witness points out

24 to be articulated? Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please, in order to better understand

Page 2818

1 when we read the transcript later, point out, I think, what was indicated

2 by the witness on document P3244.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Could the

4 witness just explain, looking at this photograph, where the blankets were

5 and where this protection or shield from the snipers was set up. Could he

6 draw it into the photograph, please.

7 Q. Witness, may I ask you, if you are able to, to mark in the spots

8 that you said where the stalls were, stands were, and --

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you want me to draw in? The

11 stands?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Yes, the stands, and the small stadium where there was fighting,

14 to the best of your recollection and knowledge.

15 A. The stadium was right behind here, the small stadium.

16 Q. Could you tell us, looking at the building on the right, what

17 direction did the stadium take?

18 A. The stadium was like this. I'll draw it in for you. But down

19 below. It sloped downwards. These woods, these trees, are up above, so

20 the stadium was down below.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you now show us the protective covering that was

22 used, and how high were these protective coverings placed?

23 A. I came along this street, turned round, and as far as I remember,

24 there was a wire attached from this balcony across the street, and it

25 would be lower at one point. So the building provided cover for one

Page 2819

1 part. It might have provided cover for me had I not come right out with

2 my front loader.

3 Q. Witness, could you please draw in the wire.

4 A. This is the wire, which rises quite high and is joined to the

5 balcony. The wire stretched across the street. It was one metre above

6 the road surface and then was pitched up rather high. It was between two

7 buildings, from this building here to that building there.

8 Q. Could you draw in the height of the wire on the building, please.

9 How high was the wire on the building?

10 A. The line would be a metre up from the road surface, and then it

11 would rise to over two and a half metres. There weren't any blankets over

12 the top part of the wire, just the part covering the street.

13 Q. If I understood you correctly, you were standing behind this line

14 with your front loader.

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Could you mark in the spot where your front loader was.

17 A. I've already done that on the other photograph.

18 Q. All right. Thank you.

19 A. You can't see it on this one.

20 Q. Witness, could you tell us, please, in the part of town where you

21 lived - and you said that part of town was called Cengic Vila - whether in

22 your part of town there was any armed combat.

23 A. No, there wasn't. There was shelling, though. My area wasn't

24 exposed to sniper fire, but it was exposed to shelling.

25 Q. When you said that you had gone off to dig trenches up at the

Page 2820

1 front lines, could you tell us, please, what part of town that was in

2 1992. Where did you dig trenches?

3 A. Well, that's quite easy. I can do that. One was at Zuca, and

4 twice I was in Vogosce, in Barice, by the communications faculty, and once

5 I was at Barice.

6 Q. During 1992 and 1993, in the part of town that you yourself lived

7 and in the places where you went to dig trenches, was there any armed

8 conflict?

9 A. As I've already said, in my district there was not. There were no

10 snipers, only shelling, in my area. However, when I went to dig trenches,

11 there would always be sporadic gunfire. That's what the soldiers said,

12 the soldiers in the trenches. They would say "sporadic gunfire." There

13 was shelling on one occasion at Zuca.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we're quite close to a quarter to

15 2.00. If there would be a suitable moment to stop, then ... This would be

16 the moment?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this would be an

18 opportune moment. I have another 20 minutes of cross-examination

19 otherwise, but I think I'll get through it in less time than the

20 examination-in-chief took. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for clarity of the record, when the

22 witness was shown during cross-examination document P3244, the line marked

23 in front of his legs indicates the line of the -- the line he talked about

24 in respect of the line coming from a building and being a line over the

25 street, and the oval-shaped marking indicates the stadium, which is partly

Page 2821

1 behind the trees.

2 Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00. Then,

3 Mr. Velic, the cross-examination will continue, presumably for some 20

4 minutes tomorrow.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of February,

7 2002, at 9.00 a.m.