Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2822

1 Friday, 1 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom and also

6 those half visible assisting us outside the courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Since I see no one standing on their feet, we could --

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you never disappoint me. What observation would you

13 like to make?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have a piece of -- I would

15 like to say that indeed the Defence counsel never wishes to disappoint the

16 Chamber.

17 The other point is that the Prosecution has given us details about

18 the videolink, the video conference link that we're going to have, and we

19 should like to say that we shall be responding in the course of next

20 week.

21 I should like to say straight away that all the responses that the

22 Defence is going to make with respect to the accused General Galic, we're

23 going to refer to him as "General Galic." And General Galic is being

24 accused here as the commander, so we shall be referring to him as "General

25 Galic," of course, and not "Mister." thank you, Mr. President.

Page 2823

1 JUDGE ORIE: Although you might have noticed, although I have

2 given it some thought, I addressed the accused also as "General Galic,"

3 mainly also because it has been done so before and I did not think it wise

4 to change it at that moment.

5 So -- but let me just see. The videolink that we are going to

6 have, as far as I'm aware, we have a motion for videolink. We have a

7 response on that motion. We have no decision yet, as far as I can see.

8 So I do not know exactly what you are referring to, unless there's a new

9 motion. "The Prosecution has given us details about the videolink that

10 we are going to have." That, of course, depends on the decision. "We

11 should like to say that we shall be responding in the course of next

12 week." So if this is just an exchange of practical information between

13 the parties, I'm only too glad to hear that you exchange your views on

14 whatever. But as far as I can see at this moment, we do not expect a

15 response, but we are, rather, preparing a decision.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say was that

17 an additional document has been given to us by the Prosecution with

18 respect to the issues that you, Mr. President, yourself raised, and I

19 think that it quotes a certain number of decisions. And that is what I

20 wanted to respond to, with perhaps some additional explanations,

21 Mr. President. I wasn't speaking of the decision itself.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Good morning, Mr. President. You may recall that I

24 think last Friday I indicated that we were filing some material in

25 response to the queries that you raised.

Page 2824

1 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. I saw that. Mainly apart from some

2 reference to case law indicating that you would further inquire a lot of

3 matters.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Not giving much else at this moment. Yes, I do

6 understand what it is.

7 MR. IERACE: I just have one further thing, Mr. President.


9 MR. IERACE: There's an additional filing - I think it's been

10 filed already, but I'll check during the morning break - where we seek to

11 add to the initial application, but I will clarify that with you after the

12 morning break. It may be also that my friend is referring to that.

13 Whilst I'm on my feet, yesterday, Mr. President, you said that you

14 could not locate the notice in relation to the three photographs of the

15 front-end loader.


17 MR. IERACE: I think that's in the letter dated 25th of January,

18 2002, on page 2, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Well, I think these issues having coped

20 with, we could continue with the cross-examination of the witness,

21 Mr. Velic. Could you please bring in the witness?

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I continue the

23 cross-examination, of course, with the Court's permission, my colleague

24 would like to ask some additional questions, that is to say Mr.

25 Piletta-Zanin, when I finish my own cross-examination, if -- with the

Page 2825

1 Court's permission, of course.

2 JUDGE ORIE: As I have indicated before, usually it's one counsel

3 that does the cross-examination. On the other hand, if it's very limited

4 in time, I do not see specifically why you couldn't do it, just as I do

5 not see any -- do I see that you would take over some additional

6 questions? Okay. Thank you. That's fine.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Velic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you hear me in

11 a language which you understand.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you made a solemn declaration

14 yesterday and that you are still bound by the solemn declaration while

15 being examined today?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I still stand by the

17 declaration I made.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, now, Ms. Pilipovic will continue to examine

19 you.

20 Ms. Pilipovic?


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, we left off yesterday with an explanation of the position

Page 2826

1 of Grbavica stadium, and you had before you photograph P3244. Do you

2 remember that, Witness?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. My question for you now is the following: On the photograph, you

5 marked in the cover that existed from the snipers and the UNPROFOR

6 vehicle. Now, the vehicle that you yourself drove -- in addition to the

7 vehicle you drove, were there any other vehicles in this area?

8 A. No, just the two UNPROFOR vehicles, my own vehicle and another

9 truck that I was supposed to load the rubbish on to, but it was further

10 off.

11 Q. And what vehicle was that?

12 A. It was a FAP truck, which takes away the rubbish to the depot, to

13 the rubbish dump, when I load it up.

14 Q. Could you tell me the colour of that vehicle?

15 A. It was yellow.

16 Q. In your company, and it was called Rad, the company you worked in,

17 apart from the vehicle that you drove, the loader, were there any other

18 drivers who drove that particular front loader in addition to yourself?

19 A. Yes, but they all had duties with the BH Army, they were all

20 younger men. They were in the army at the time. I was the only one who

21 was a little older, and I had my other work -- work assignments within the

22 company.

23 Q. So what you're saying is that when you didn't drive the loader

24 yourself, nobody else drove it in 1992, 1993 and 1994; is that right?

25 A. In 1992, I drove the loader myself. I was the only one who drove

Page 2827

1 the vehicle, and that was the only vehicle we had, whereas in 1993, I also

2 drove the vehicle myself until the time that I was wounded, and after I

3 had been wounded, the vehicle couldn't be driven either, it was

4 incapacitated, and then they got another vehicle that they used.

5 Q. In the Sarajevo area, were there any other work organisations with

6 vehicles of that kind?

7 A. Yes, there are quite a few of them.

8 Q. Your loader, can it load up earth as well, in addition to rubbish?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, do you happen to know that while were you in charge of your

11 vehicle and assigned the vehicle, was it used to load up earth?

12 A. No. While the war was on, from 1992, quite definitely not. We

13 did no other work with the loader. We just used it to load up the

14 rubbish.

15 Q. In the locality of your company, where your company was situated,

16 were there any other work organisations in that part of Sarajevo, in the

17 vicinity?

18 A. Yes, there were.

19 Q. Was one of them the construction firm called Vranica?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In 1992, 1993 and 1994, do you happen to know whether that company

22 was used for the production of military materiel and equipment and that

23 some, that soldiers were put up there?

24 A. I don't know about that. I don't have any information of that

25 kind.

Page 2828

1 Q. In that part of town - and when I say that part of town I'm

2 thinking about Cengic Vila, the Cengic Vila district, which is where you

3 lived as well and where your company was located - were there buildings

4 and facilities which in 1992, 1993, and 1994, were used for military

5 purposes?

6 A. I don't know, perhaps just the ZTO. I know that the police was up

7 there. Now, whether the army was there as well, I don't know, though that

8 was what was closest to us.

9 Q. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, asked by my learned

10 colleague, you said that in November, 1992, a shelling occurred. Could

11 you tell us now, please, where that shelling took place?

12 A. Well, it took place all over town. There was shelling all over

13 town. Now, if you want me to be more specific, in the area I lived in,

14 all I can say is that I saw a woman being injured by the explosion of a

15 shell.

16 Q. Can you tell us whether you happened to know what was targeted

17 with -- what that shell was targeting?

18 A. Well, what do you want me to say? People had weapons, and

19 whenever they felt like it, or almost, that was a rule, whenever they felt

20 like it, they would press the trigger and fire, that kind of thing.

21 Q. Could you tell us more specifically which part of town this

22 occurred, the incident you saw occurred, and please situate it with

23 respect to Vranica Transport, the Vranica Transport Company and your own

24 company?

25 A. Well, that's rather difficult. If the -- they start -- if they

Page 2829

1 have been shooting in one part of town, then they would move to another

2 part of town and shoot in another place, and the Vranica place was one of

3 these and there were some shells that we called roses, we referred to them

4 as roses.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us whether you yourself were able to

6 determine which direction the shell came from?

7 A. Well, if we looked at the covers set up by the buildings. For

8 example, if a shell fell in front of my building, from the railway

9 station, there were four high-rise buildings so it couldn't have come from

10 Brace but Zuc, and if it fell by the Miljacka River, then we assumed that

11 it was fired from Grbavica, Vrace and so on.

12 Q. You told us that there were shells coming from Zuc as well?

13 A. Yes. From Zuc. In 1993, Zuc hadn't been liberated yet, so yes,

14 they were coming from there, some of those elevations as they were

15 called. They called them elevations. I don't know, Golo Brdo, things

16 like that.

17 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you said

18 that you were up at the front lines digging trenches?

19 A. Yes, we went to dig trenches manually.

20 Q. Could you tell us how far the line controlled by the Army of

21 Republika Srpska were from your front line and the trenches you were

22 digging?

23 A. Well, I said that I only went three times, once to Zuc and two to

24 Vogosca, and in the meantime I got on with my job, and that's when I was

25 wounded. We were in Vogosca just ten to 15 metres away from the Serb

Page 2830

1 front lines, by the communications faculty there. They said it was close

2 by, but I don't really know myself because it was night-time and we had to

3 dig silently. At Zuc the distance was even smaller.

4 Q. Could you tell us now, please, what the members of the BH Army

5 were wearing?

6 A. At first, they were wearing civilian clothes. People were wearing

7 what they had. Some people would sew themselves a kind of uniform from

8 some tent material and when I came out later on from the hospital, and

9 they had uniforms. I had two sons who were in the army.

10 Q. What were your sons wearing?

11 A. Well, they first wore civilian clothes but towards the end of

12 1994, they were issued some sort of uniform.

13 Q. Could you tell us, please, what weapons the members of the BH Army

14 had at the beginning and then later on?

15 A. Well, I can't give you any details as to their weapons. All I can

16 say is that my sons never brought any weapons home with them. And when I

17 went trench digging, I just saw rifles, nothing more than that.

18 Q. During the time you were trench digging, were there any

19 casualties? Did any of your friends, any of the people you dug with, were

20 they killed or wounded?

21 A. Yes. That night at Zuc, while we were digging the trenches, two

22 men -- two of our men were killed. One was a driver, one was a worker.

23 Q. When they were buried, were they buried -- given a military

24 funeral? Were they buried as soldiers or as civilians?

25 A. Well, I don't really know. I was wounded soon after that, so I

Page 2831












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2832

1 don't know anything about where they were buried or how. I know that one

2 of them was very poor. He had a lot of children. But I really can't say

3 where they were buried. I don't know.

4 Q. Thank you. You told us yesterday that you went around town

5 collecting up the rubbish. In Sarajevo, was there a special depot or dump

6 where you took the rubbish to, and if so, could you tell us the route you

7 took to reach it?

8 A. There was are road called Put Spasa, Salvation Road, and that went

9 from my own company towards the bakery and the tobacco factory and behind

10 the Marshal Tito barracks, and then you had to take the by-streets through

11 town so that you were better protected. You couldn't take the main

12 streets. So that's the route we took. And in 1992, they were -- drivers

13 were taking rubbish there. They passed through some hangars and some

14 things like that. I didn't actually go there myself. But later on, when

15 this depot or dump was filled, they had to go via the wire factory. There

16 was a large facility there before the war, and there was a ditch of some

17 kind, and in 1997, we took the rubbish to the municipal depot.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 You said that you drove to Stup hill.

20 A. No, it wasn't Stup hill. It was called Ravan, the foot of Stup

21 hill, in fact.

22 Q. Do you know if there were any soldiers there?

23 A. Well, I never went there, so I don't know.

24 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also said that there was a shortage of

25 water and electricity. As far as I recall, you said that there was no

Page 2833

1 water or electricity in Sarajevo; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Could you tell us, please, why there was no electricity? What was

4 the reason for the electricity cut, if we know that there were soldiers

5 and that fighting was going on. Why wasn't there any electricity?

6 A. Well, that's quite simple. All the long-distance communication

7 lines supplying the town with electricity were shelled, so they were

8 down. And the same applied to water. There was water shortage because

9 the water facilities had been destroyed. And of course, there was

10 shooting and fighting going on.

11 Q. Could you tell us, please: If there was no water in Cengic Vila,

12 the area that you lived in, what about Nedzarici and Grbavica? Would

13 there be no water there too?

14 A. Yes, that's right. There wouldn't be.

15 Q. Now, was the pattern the same for electricity? If in one part of

16 town the electricity was down, would it be down in the other?

17 A. Well, yes, that's right. The whole town would be left without

18 water and electricity.

19 Q. When you say "the whole town," what do you mean by that? Do you

20 include the Vogosca, Ilidza, Grbavica municipalities as well, Dobrinja,

21 Nedzarici, and all the others, when you say "the whole town"?

22 A. No, I don't mean those municipalities. I mean just the area that

23 was held by our people. We really didn't have water and electricity. But

24 when I did trench-digging at Zuc, you could see that there was electricity

25 down there in Ilidza. It was night-time. We dug trenches at night. So

Page 2834

1 you could see the electricity, the lights on down there. We were up on

2 the hill, and you could see that they had electricity down there in the

3 valley, and that was the area held by the Republika Srpska side.

4 Q. Now, when we're talking about your part of town, Cengic Vila, the

5 Cengic Vila district, Alipasino Polje, when there was no electricity

6 there, could there have been electricity in Nedzarici, for example?

7 A. I don't know. I can't say. I think that they should have had

8 electricity, but I'm not quite sure. I think they did.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. The

10 Defence has no further questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Just a few questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown photograph P3244. That's

16 the one he marked yesterday. And could it be placed on the ELMO.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

18 Q. Yesterday you marked on that photograph a line which appears in

19 front of you. The line appears to cross the street. Do you remember

20 placing that line there?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. You explained to us that there was a wire which crossed the road.

23 It was about a metre high at the road surface and rose to a height of

24 about two and a half metres where it joined the building behind it. Is

25 that the way it was?

Page 2835

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I think you said that it had some covering draped over it. Do you

3 remember what sort of covering it was?

4 A. When I got there, when I got there to clear up the rubbish and

5 load it up, and when I had finished loading the first truck, I was behind

6 this building here, and as I was sitting up in the loader, I was behind

7 the corner, and I would look behind to see whether anybody was passing and

8 I noticed this wire and several blankets here on the pavement in this

9 corner. So they were moving from here to there, to cover the entrance,

10 and on this other building opposite. It was probably hitched up to that

11 building too. There was a passageway leading towards the other buildings

12 and pedestrians used to pass by that way. The wire was set quite high.

13 You could just pass under it if you were in a small car.

14 Q. At the time you were shot, where was your vehicle in relation to

15 the wire?

16 A. My rear end was here. It's a little wider. And that's where it

17 was. And I saw the wire from this part while I was waiting for Milan to

18 bring up the truck for me to load up the rubbish. It was all very fast.

19 Everything happened very quickly. But I do remember these two or three

20 blankets, and they were torn.

21 Q. Thank you for that. This morning you told us something of the

22 incident where a woman was injured by a shell near your place in 1992, and

23 you were asked whether you knew what the shell was targeting, what the

24 target was. You replied that whenever they felt like it, they would press

25 the trigger and fire. Who were you referring to when you said those

Page 2836

1 words?

2 A. I was referring to the Serb army, which was in the conflict and

3 confrontation with the Bosnian army.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

7 Any questions from the Bench? Yes, please. Judge El Mahdi will

8 put one or more questions to you.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask you two questions.

12 The first question I have in mind is in relation to the question you were

13 asked about the shelling that took place in November, and then you said

14 that it actually took place in the summer, in 1992. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. It's possible -- I can't quite remember. It's possible that

16 I made a mistake. Because a lot of time has passed, and many years, of

17 course, and one forgets. But I believe that it is true what I said the

18 first -- what I said in my first statement, because that was closer to the

19 time.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You also said - and I am quoting

21 - [In English]: "When a shell fell, another one followed."

22 [Interpretation] And you said that this was in relation to the incident

23 that happened in the summer in 1992, and that at the moment that your son

24 went to help or to help with controlling the fire which resulted after the

25 shelling, was there another shelling after that?

Page 2837

1 A. I did not mention a fire. There was no fire. But the shell, when

2 it landed, we were in the hallway on a building [as interpreted], and then

3 the shell fell on the skyscrapers around Miljacka, and these young men

4 went to help, and my son as well. And what is usually said is that one

5 shell would follow another. There was a woman. I did not see her, but I

6 did see my son. They were helping her, carrying her in, and then they

7 took her away. And when these young men came back into the hallway of the

8 building, they said that she was very seriously wounded. She was a young

9 woman. And in fact, she was wounded very seriously in the stomach. That

10 shell hit, and why and how, I don't know.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So this was just one shell?

12 A. Yes. On that day, it was just one shell.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, in relation to

14 the other incident - and I'm talking about when you were actually

15 targeted - so if I understand correctly, you were wounded on the left

16 hand; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And if I understand correctly,

19 you were trying to take cover, to escape, and you got off the loader on

20 the left-hand side, on the side of your door.

21 A. You get in -- in normal conditions, you get in on the left and you

22 get out on the left, but because the bullets were coming -- being fired

23 from the left-hand side and then went out through the right-hand door.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You went out -- you got off the

25 loader the left or the right?

Page 2838

1 A. I got off on the right side.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] On the right side.

3 A. Yes. When you sit in a loader, to us, this is -- one is left

4 side, and that is the right side. So normally I got in on the left side,

5 and that's how you get out, normally. You normally don't get out on the

6 right side, because there is a tank, a fuel tank, and there are no steps

7 that you can go down. But then from the fuel tank, I jumped off to the

8 floor -- to the ground, and holding my hand.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But after the shots that hit you

10 and wounded you, were there other shots being fired?

11 A. Yes, of course there were. You can see that on the engine, on the

12 loader. There were 64 shots fired just on the cabin, on the cabin alone,

13 not counting the fuel tank, and my colleagues were talking about it

14 afterwards. You could see it on the photograph yesterday.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you yourself did not see

16 what was being called a nest of snipers?

17 A. No, I did not. But the following day, when the French soldiers

18 came to get the loader, that's when they saw that, and that's what I heard

19 afterwards.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Velic --

22 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd seek to --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

25 MR. IERACE: I would seek to ask a few more questions as a result

Page 2839

1 of the responses that the witness has just asked [sic]. I'll explain what

2 it goes to. Mr. President, you and Your Honours may have noticed that

3 during examination-in-chief I abandoned the line of questioning in

4 relation to the shelling incident when the witness indicated it was summer

5 rather than November of 1992.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes. And the witness has just said that he abides by

8 the --

9 JUDGE ORIE: The November.

10 MR. IERACE: Yes. November and the date in his statement. If

11 it's accepted that he indicates November, I have nothing further to say;

12 otherwise, I could show him his statement and clarify that point. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I just wanted to say that

16 if the Prosecution would like to have another turn of questioning, another

17 examination, then of course we would like to have another round the

18 questioning.

19 JUDGE ORIE: At earlier occasions I always gave the Defence an

20 equal opportunity to ask additional questions when I gave it to the

21 Prosecution, and that will be my line. So only if I forget it, please

22 remind me.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the reason why you asked for any further

25 questioning, and having listened to what the witness testified, that he

Page 2840












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2841

1 would stick to the more precise date, I think there will be no reason

2 specifically to ask any additional questions, so -- nor the Prosecution,

3 but also not the Defence will have an opportunity to put additional

4 questions to the witness.

5 Mr. Velic, you've been answering for quite some time the questions

6 put to you both by the Prosecution and by the Defence and also by the

7 Judges. You'll understand that testimony of those who have been present

8 during those days in that area are of great importance for this Tribunal,

9 which will have to take decisions on events that happened at that time. I

10 thank you very much for having come that long way to The Hague and I wish

11 you a good journey home. Thank you very much

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour

13 [The witness withdrew]


15 Then, Madam Registrar, while the witness is being led out of the

16 courtroom, we still have some admission of exhibits to do. As far as I

17 can see, we have the video. That would be ...

18 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be Exhibit P3280D.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And then we have the 360-degree photograph.


21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a series of pictures of the front

22 loader.


24 JUDGE ORIE: And then we have another series of photos marked both

25 during the moment when the statements were written down and in the

Page 2842

1 courtroom.

2 THE REGISTRAR: P3244, P3250, P3245.

3 JUDGE ORIE: These documents, I still forget one, and that's a

4 medical -- yes, I've got it on my next page, a medical report, and a

5 translations of it, that would be --

6 THE REGISTRAR: P1806, P1806.1 for the English translation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and these are both double documents, and double

8 translations as well. They are admitted into evidence.

9 Mr. Ierace, your next witness is Witness I, as far as I

10 understand.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Thank you for giving me the floor. Just to be -- just to be absolutely

15 clear in relation to the transcript, on page 9, line 6, page 9, line 6,

16 and the witness said, "In end of 1994," and this is not what was said in

17 the English transcript. So I think it would be good to say that what he

18 said was "end of 1994," just for the clarity of the transcript. Thank

19 you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Let me just find out exactly --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I could perhaps give you the

22 references again. This is page 9, line 6, beginning of line 6, at 9.55,

23 and I'm saying that because I will have -- it was 9 hours 13 minutes 55

24 seconds, it was about 1994. That was the answer of the witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: My colleague, Judge Nieto-Navia says that the

Page 2843

1 transcript says that it's 1994. But I have some difficulties since the

2 time on my laptop is not exactly the same as it is -- could you please

3 indicate again the time? You said it was 9.13? Did I understand you

4 well? I'll just do a quick search on "1994."

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In my current transcript on

6 page 9, of the transcript, line 6, the first page at 9.13.55, I see "end

7 of" and then I can read a word "sniefrn", but I believe that is about

8 the -- numbers that are missing which are 1994. I'm not sure that you

9 have the same transcript as I do.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I see that Judge Nieto-Navia is --

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I was checking my notes here and the witness

12 said "1994," but I cannot see that in the transcript, you're right.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There will be people who will

14 be working on it this weekend, and this is a provisional transcript, so

15 this is just to specify clearly that the witness had said, "1994, end

16 of."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Both your recollection and the recollection Judge

18 Nieto-Navia --

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Just for the transcript again, I said I was

20 checking the transcript, I couldn't see that date, but in my notes, I had

21 the date 1994.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That being clarified, could we then have the

23 next witness brought in? I think everything is prepared for the

24 protective measures and the public gallery is empty at this moment.

25 Please, would you bring in the next witness, Mr. Usher?

Page 2844

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you hear me in a language you understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in this courtroom.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Protective measures have been granted in respect of

9 you, and it means that we will not use your name but we'll call you

10 Witness I. The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

11 solemn declaration before the examination starts. The text will be now

12 handed out to you by the usher. Would you please make that declaration?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Witness I,

18 you will be first examined by the Prosecution, and the examination, will

19 it be Mr. Ierace or Mr. Mundis or -- please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I should indicate at the outset that

21 the relevant video to be shown to this witness has not yet been redacted.

22 There has been some difficulties in getting access to the equipment. The

23 equipment is located in a courtroom. Therefore, I propose that at the

24 appropriate time, the video be shown in circumstances where it cannot be

25 broadcast outside, and when a redacted version is available, I will seek

Page 2845

1 to tender that without any qualification. In the meantime, I will seek to

2 tender the unredacted version as a confidential exhibit. Thank you,

3 Mr. President.


5 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown P3651.

6 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

7 Q. Sir, would you please look at the piece of paper in front of you?

8 Do not read it out loud, just read it to yourself, and can you confirm

9 that the details on it as to your name and date of birth are correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: Might that -- Mr. President, I seek to tender that as

12 a confidential exhibit.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P3651 is admitted as sealed.


15 Q. Sir, in 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before the armed conflict began in that year, what was your

18 occupation, if any?

19 A. I worked in a factory. It was an engine factory.

20 Q. Following the commencement of hostilities, what was your

21 occupation?

22 A. Locksmith.

23 Q. Were you involved in the armed conflict in any way in the course

24 of your employment?

25 A. No.

Page 2846

1 Q. In that year, 1992, did you know a woman with the surname of

2 Dizdarevic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was her full name?

5 A. Her name was Hajrija Dizdarevic.

6 Q. By 1993, how long had you known her for?

7 A. I knew her for some time, and then in 1993, throughout, I knew

8 her.

9 Q. Whereabouts did she live in 1993?

10 A. [redacted]

11 Q. Did you have any contact with her from time to time?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. What was the reason for that? Were you friends or was there some

14 particular reason to have contact with her?

15 A. We are friends, and also through a pledge, because I gave a pledge

16 to her son, who went to medical treatment, that I should look after her

17 because she was an elderly lady.

18 Q. Approximately how old was she in 1993?

19 A. She was 78, about 78.

20 Q. By July of 199' -- withdraw that. In July of 1993, was there

21 anyone living with her in her apartment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How often would you see her?

24 A. Every other day, in the afternoon.

25 Q. When was the last time that you saw her alive?

Page 2847

1 A. 16th of July, 1993, about 1600 hours.

2 Q. Whereabouts did you see her?

3 A. In her apartment.

4 Q. Was there anyone else present on that occasion?

5 A. Yes. A friend of hers was present, Zlata Dzubur.

6 Q. When you left her, did she say anything as to what her plans were

7 for the next day or so?

8 A. Yes. They agreed that the following day, on the 17th, that a

9 friend would come at 9.00 for coffee.

10 Q. Did you understand that to be 9.00 in the morning or 9.00 in the

11 evening?

12 A. 9.00 in the morning.

13 Q. When was the next time that you went to Mrs. Dizdarevic's

14 apartment?

15 A. On the 17th of July, about 2000 hours.

16 Q. What happened when you arrived there?

17 A. The neighbours met me, to talk to me, and to -- and they asked me

18 where Hajrija was because they couldn't find her and she wasn't opening

19 the door.

20 Q. What did you do when you were told that, if anything?

21 A. So what I did then was that, with a neighbour who was in charge of

22 the building, I went to the next-door building, I went to the fifth floor

23 and, in the next-door flat, I went from one balcony to another, I crossed

24 over to another balcony, and I entered into her flat, into the flat of

25 Hajrija Dizdarevic.

Page 2848

1 Q. So you made your way across the outside of the building from the

2 next-door flat into Mrs. Dizdarevic's flat; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. It was quite a risky thing to do, because the apartment was

4 facing the side from where the -- there was sniping, so I did it -- I took

5 the risk and I crossed over from one balcony to another on the outside of

6 the building.

7 Q. Which room of Mrs. Dizdarevic's apartment did you enter first?

8 A. First I went into the living-room from the balcony.

9 Q. And did you find Mrs. Dizdarevic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You then looked through her apartment?

12 A. Yes. I checked the bedroom first, where she slept. I couldn't

13 find her. So I went to another room, the second bedroom. She was not

14 there. And the last room I checked was the kitchen, where I found her

15 lying dead.

16 Q. Could you describe, please, the manner in which she was lying?

17 What position?

18 A. She was lying in such a way that her feet were below the window

19 and the -- her head was opposite to the window. She was lying on her back

20 with her hands on her chest, and she was -- and she was holding -- she was

21 holding the beads, Muslim beads, in her hands.

22 Q. Sir, could you please demonstrate to the Trial Chamber the manner

23 in which she was holding her hands on her chest? And perhaps you could

24 slowly stand up before you do so.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 2849












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2850

1 MR. IERACE: Now, Mr. President for the transcript, the witness

2 has his elbows against the side of his body, his forearms raised at about

3 45 degrees with his hands clenched, not quite touching, in a position

4 above his chest, and the clenched hands are not touching the wall of the

5 chest. Thank you.

6 Q. Please sit down again, sir. You said that she was holding Muslim

7 beads. Did you know her to be of the Muslim faith?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Had you ever seen her praying?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And either before or during or after prayers, had you seen her

12 before with those beads?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us the circumstances in which you've seen her with

15 the beads?

16 A. In the morning, usually. She would be with them around 8.00 in

17 the morning, then around noon, that is, around 12.00, and then in the

18 evening, around 7.00, 1900.

19 Q. Were they also the times that typically she would say her prayers?

20 A. Well, that would be usually around 8.00 in the morning, around

21 noon, 12.00, and 1900.

22 Q. Now, had you previously seen her say her prayers in her apartment?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what room or what rooms in her apartment had you seen that?

25 A. In the kitchen usually, or dining-room. I mean, that is just one

Page 2851

1 area, one room, the kitchen and the dining-room.

2 Q. What was she wearing when you found her?

3 A. She had a skirt and a blouse, a dark skirt. The skirt was of a

4 dark colour. And a blouse.

5 Q. Were there any windows in the kitchen?

6 A. There were three windows. The one on the right-hand side was

7 open.

8 Q. When you say "the right-hand side," is that as you stood in the

9 kitchen looking out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did any of the windows in the kitchen have glass in them at that

12 time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know why that was?

15 A. Because the glass had been broken following the shelling.

16 Q. Did you notice on her any sign of any wound?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please tell us what you saw in that regard.

19 A. When I came near her, I saw a wound in her right temple.

20 Q. What sort of wound?

21 A. A bullet wound.

22 Q. I take it that there was some blood, apart from the wound,

23 elsewhere.

24 A. Yes. Very little.

25 Q. Very little, did you say?

Page 2852

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. All right. Although there was no glass on the windows, was there

3 any other form of covering across the window frames?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What sort of covering was that?

6 A. There was plastic sheeting, reinforced, because I did that.

7 Q. You put that up for her?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Was there any electricity in the apartment at that time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. To your knowledge, had there been electricity available in the

12 apartment on previous occasions that you had been there during the

13 conflict?

14 A. Now and then. The city was without electricity, and there would

15 be some lights now and then only.

16 Q. Were any of the three windows in an open position?

17 A. Only the one in the kitchen, and the one on the right in the

18 kitchen.

19 Q. Did the -- I withdraw that. Was the plastic sheeting -- I

20 withdraw that. What degree of visibility was available through the

21 plastic sheeting? Could you see clearly through it, as if it was glass?

22 Was it totally transparent or was it not?

23 A. No, it was not.

24 Q. What colour was it?

25 A. Well, opaque grey plastic.

Page 2853

1 Q. You've said that one of the windows was in an open position, that

2 is, the one on the right. Was that slightly open, half open, completely

3 open? What degree?

4 A. Wide open.

5 Q. From your knowledge at the time, having visited her regularly, did

6 that expose an occupant of the kitchen to any danger by having a window

7 wide open?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please explain why.

10 A. Because this window faced Grbavica, the shopping centre, and

11 Hrasno Brdo, and it is there that the forces of the Serb army -- from

12 there that the forces of the Serb army acted.

13 Q. Do you know whether, on any previous occasion, her apartment had

14 received any fire?

15 A. Yes. The interior walls were damaged and the window panes were

16 shattered and broken.

17 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. When you say that the forces of the Serb army acted from those

21 areas - from Grbavica, the shopping centre, and Hrasno Brdo - in what way

22 did they act?

23 A. That was shelling and sniper fire and so-called death sowers.

24 Q. When you say "death sowers," what type of fire or weapon is that?

25 A. It is a firearm with, as far as I know about it, with high

Page 2854

1 velocity per second, high velocity of fire per second.

2 Q. After you discovered the body of your friend, did you -- when you

3 left the apartment, how did you do so?

4 A. I found the keys. I tripped over them, because it was dark. But

5 I stumbled across them and I just -- I opened the door and locked the

6 door, told the neighbours that she had been killed, and then I locked it

7 again, without letting anyone in.

8 Q. Having regard to that answer, you needed the keys to unlock the

9 door in order to leave; is that correct?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. You've told us that you gained entry via a neighbour's apartment.

12 Had anyone tried to open her door, her front door, that is, from the

13 outside, so that entry could be gained that way?

14 A. Yes, but I did not have a key that would fit.

15 Q. Was there any other means of entrance to the apartment apart from

16 that door or via the outside of the building?

17 A. The only way was the way that I used to enter, or to break the

18 door down.

19 Q. And was the way you used to enter by coming in through that same

20 door that you exited through on this occasion?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In September -- I withdraw that. What was the weather like on the

23 day -- on that day, on the evening of which you found Mrs. Dizdarevic's

24 body?

25 A. The weather was fair. It was sunny.

Page 2855

1 Q. What was the weather like the day before, that is, the 16th of

2 July, 1993?

3 A. Again, fair.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I seek to show the

5 video, which is Exhibit 3280B. And again, I'd be grateful if that could

6 be shown in private session. Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: I have the exhibit marked as P3280E; is that

8 correct?

9 MR. IERACE: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We will then go into private session before showing

12 the video.

13 MR. IERACE: Perhaps, Mr. President, I should ask one question

14 first. My apologies.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll wait for one second with private

16 session and ...

17 Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

19 Q. In September of last year, did you attend the apartment where

20 Mrs. Dizdarevic had lived in the company of an investigator and some

21 camera people?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. And did you notice that there had been some changes to the

24 kitchen?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2856

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll now enter into private session, Madam

3 Registrar.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2857

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it's on my screen now that there's no

5 "PS" any more, so we're in open session now.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Sir, did you recognise yourself in that video?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. You were asked to indicate where the chair was. Could you tell us

11 in your own words how you found that chair to be when you entered the

12 kitchen.

13 A. I suppose that as Hajrija was falling, being hit by this bullet,

14 she must have also caught this chair, which would have been standing

15 normally, and as she was falling, she pulled it, but the table was in the

16 way, so that the chair was tilted at an angle of 45 degrees.

17 Q. You've told us that you regularly visited her in that apartment.

18 Over what period of time before then? A matter of weeks, months, or

19 longer?

20 A. Well, it was while her son was still there, but -- that is, from

21 the beginning of the war, because the son was very seriously ill.

22 Q. Had you ever known any Bosnian government defence forces to occupy

23 that building?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Had you ever observed any defence forces in the vicinity of the

Page 2858












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2859

1 building, that is, around the outside of it?

2 A. No. No. There was no front line there.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown an

4 exhibit, in particular, the -- excuse me. Exhibit P3216, which is a

5 collection of photographs.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry, I forgot to put on the microphone. Could

9 you please distribute it to -- first give it to -- you have got copies,

10 Madam Registrar?

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is no identification issues with

12 the photographs themselves so they may be placed -- they will be placed on

13 the ELMO.


15 MR. IERACE: We will start off with photograph 1A, and I'll lead

16 so that I can save time. Unless and until my friends object.

17 Q. Is photograph 1A a view taken from the inside of Mrs. Dizdarevic's

18 apartment?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: And perhaps the photograph might be taken off the

21 ELMO for a moment and handed to the witness?

22 Q. Sir, would you please turn the photograph over? And do you see on

23 the back, your signature and the date, being the 22nd of June, 2001?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. All right. And as the apartment appears in the photograph,

Page 2860

1 particularly the kitchen, does it appear to have been redecorated since

2 the time that you found Mrs. Dizdarevic's body?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is the window space the same as it was at the time that you found

5 her body, in particular the window on the right, which appears in the open

6 position in the photograph?

7 A. Except that the window pane is proper, glass panes have been put

8 in and everything has been put in order.

9 Q. All right. Now, would you please look at photo 1B, if that could

10 be placed on the ELMO? Did you indicate three things on photo 1B with a

11 red pen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Does A indicate the particular window that was open when you found

14 Mrs. Dizdarevic's body?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Does C indicate the chair that you saw in a tilted position at

17 that time?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. What does the area within the circle marked B indicate?

20 A. Well, that is the opening, the aperture, of the window.

21 Q. Please go to photo 2A. Does that appear to be another view

22 through the window of Mrs. Dizdarevic's kitchen?

23 A. Yes, it does.

24 Q. And have you placed markings -- I withdraw that. Please place

25 photograph 2B on the ELMO. Now, by comparing photographs 2A and 2B, in

Page 2861

1 order to get a clearer view of what appeared through the window, can you

2 indicate, if you know, where the building circled and marked letter A is?

3 A. I can't quite figure it out, but I think that this is the building

4 housing the shopping centre at Grbavica. That is the line that was held

5 by the Serb troops.

6 Q. In relation to the two buildings marked -- withdraw that. In

7 relation to the three buildings marked with the letter B, are you able to

8 say, firstly, whether those buildings existed at the time that

9 Mrs. Dizdarevic was shot?

10 A. They did.

11 Q. And secondly, which side of the confrontation line those buildings

12 were on?

13 A. These buildings were on the first confrontation line, that is on

14 the Bosnian Army line.

15 Q. Could you please now look at photo 3A? Could that be placed on

16 the ELMO? Do you agree that that appears to be either a telephoto shot or

17 a blowup of part of the earlier photograph, 2A? In other words, it shows

18 the view through the window in more detail?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And would you now go to photo 3B? I draw your attention firstly

21 to the building that you have marked with a circle and then placed hatch

22 marks within the circle. Do you know the name of that building?

23 A. That is -- it is called Loris building, because the shop is called

24 Loris.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. I

Page 2862

1 don't know whether Mr. Ierace has told us whether it was the witness who

2 circled this building or made any other markings. And perhaps it was one

3 of those things that the Chamber would not like to see because they were

4 previously marked.

5 JUDGE ORIE: There is nothing against previously marked

6 photographs, but your question suggested that the markings were made by

7 the witness. Could you please first ask him before you proceed?

8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Sir --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, just

12 a moment. We were talking here regarding possible incident concerning

13 these photographs. I hope that the Prosecution will help us so that can

14 we examine what is significant here. Perhaps we shall be coming back to

15 this. I hope we shall have 30 seconds in order to be able to ascertain

16 that, because I believe that time is right now for the break, and we can

17 resolve it during that period of time.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Can I just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but I did

19 understand you well? You're talking about the relevance of this part of

20 the evidence? Is that what I understand?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. It will be

22 too much to say relevance. I'm talking about significance inter partes

23 regarding these documents. That is, I'm referring to the fair trial.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid at this moment -- one moment, please.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2863

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If I do understand you well, you want to raise

2 an issue perhaps during the break with the Prosecution and we will then

3 hear whether this will have any result. Please be very careful in

4 reporting of your discussions, since this has caused some difficulties now

5 and then. So mind your words and we'll then have a break.

6 Mr. I, we'll have a break until 11.00, and then your examination

7 will continue.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're at ease, as I see. Is

11 there anything to be reported?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We were

13 examining the issues with the Prosecution. The letter that we received

14 was not clear enough, but of course orally Mr. Ierace was able to explain

15 to us what it was about, and we're making greater headway now. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm quite happy that you were able to solve the

17 problem.

18 Mr. Ierace, then we can proceed with the examination of the

19 witness.

20 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Witness I.

21 You may proceed, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Sir, on a number of these photographs there are - on the

24 photocopies, that is, the black-and-white versions - markings with a red

25 pen on the surface of the photographs themselves. Those markings comprise

Page 2864

1 letters of the alphabet, circles, lines, and arrows. Who placed them on

2 those photographs?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Now, coming back to photograph 3B, which is on the machine to your

5 right, you have circled and crossed a building, only one building. Do you

6 know the name of that building?

7 A. The Loris building.

8 Q. How close was that building to the confrontation lines?

9 A. It is at the confrontation line itself, and the line was held by

10 the army of Bosnian Muslims.

11 Q. Having regard to that answer, do I take it that everything which

12 appears beyond that building was in the control of the Bosnian Serb army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also marked a building with the letter "A" and a circle. Do

15 you know what type of construction that was, in other words, whether it

16 was a business building of some description, commercial nature, or

17 residence?

18 A. A residential building, a skyscraper at the shopping centre

19 location.

20 Q. Did the shopping centre have a name?

21 A. It is in the Grbavica district.

22 Q. Would you please now go to photograph 4A, and that is now

23 displayed before you. Was that also a view from the window of the

24 deceased's kitchen?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2865

1 Q. We see different things in that photograph to what we saw in the

2 earlier views. Was that to the left or to the right of what we have seen

3 previously through the window?

4 A. To the right.

5 Q. On the copy - and perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO - we

6 see that you have marked two areas: "A" and "B." What is the area within

7 the circle marked "A"?

8 A. That is the front line held by the Serb army, that is to say,

9 Hrasno, the hills around the stadium, Grbavica.

10 Q. Indeed, I think on the colour version of that photograph, we can

11 see what appear to be some lights on a pillar. Is that correct?

12 A. I didn't quite understand what you said.

13 Q. All right. Look at the colour version of the photograph, and do

14 you see that immediately to the left of the metal window frame there

15 appears to be a construction in the form of a white tower with an object

16 which is rectangular in shape on top of it?

17 A. Yes. That's the chimney from the boiler house, in the Hrasno

18 district, Trg, Trg Heroje, Heroes' Square.

19 Q. With the metal pointer, could you please point to the chimney.

20 Could you please point to the photograph that's to your right rather than

21 the photograph on the screen. The usher will show you which photograph to

22 point to.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. I, will you point at that picture. Yes, that's

24 right.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 2866


2 Q. All right. That is the chimney. Now, if you move the pointer to

3 the right. Please move your pointer to the right. Yes. Just stop there

4 for a moment. If you could just keep the pointer still. All right. Now

5 move the pointer a little further to the right, where there is what

6 appears -- Yes. Now, do you see that just beneath the white tip of the

7 pointer on the photograph there appears to be a white column with a

8 rectangular object on top of it? If you take away the tip of the pointer,

9 you should be able to see it immediately beneath it. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know what that is?

12 A. They're the floodlights from the Zeleznicar stadium at Grbavica.

13 It was a football stadium.

14 Q. Where was the stadium in relation to the confrontation lines at

15 the time that Mrs. Dizdarevic was shot?

16 A. In the hands of the Serb army.

17 Q. Would you please now go to the left of the chimney, and on the

18 black-and-white photograph, you have marked that area with a circle and

19 the letter "B." What is that area?

20 A. That is the line at Grbavica held by the Serb army.

21 Q. All right. So by way of summary, behind the various buildings

22 that we see in that photograph, that is the high-rise buildings, we see a

23 ridge with smaller dwellings upon it and trees; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, please go to photograph 5A and look at that one. Do you

Page 2867

1 recognise the apartment block which appears in the centre of that

2 photograph and occupies most of the photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which building is that one?

5 A. That is the building in which the late Hajrija lived.

6 Q. Please go to the black-and-white photocopy. Have you marked the

7 building in which she lived with the letter "A"?

8 A. The letter "A," yes.

9 Q. You have circled and marked a portion of another building on the

10 margin of the photograph with the letter "B." What significance does that

11 building have?

12 A[redacted]

13 Q. Could you please now go to photograph 6A? Having regard to your

14 earlier answer, is that also a photograph of the building in which

15 Mrs. Dizdarevic lived?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please look at the black-and-white photocopy, and in particular,

18 the area of the facade that is marked with the letter "A."

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you allow me to confer for just one second with

20 Madam Registrar?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I draw to your attention especially to the

24 protective measures, Mr. Ierace? At least in view of one of your last

25 questions and one of the indications that - we will have the proper

Page 2868












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2869

1 redactions prepared. Would you please keep that in mind while showing

2 photos to the witness and asking questions about them?

3 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.



6 Q. On photograph 6B, which appears in front of you, there is an area

7 of the facade of the deceased's building which is marked with the letter

8 "A." What does that area signify?

9 A. That is the apartment belonging to the late Hajrija.

10 Q. Do you see on that photograph the kitchen window that you observed

11 to be open when you discovered her body?

12 A. Yes. And I have marked it with a "B."

13 Q. The area marked with the letter "C" appears to be, at least in

14 part, an adjoining apartment. Is that the apartment through which you

15 exited in order to gain entry to the deceased's apartment?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please now go to photograph 7A. Does 7A show a closeup of the

18 exterior of the deceased's apartment, in particular part of her balcony

19 and the kitchen area?

20 A. Yes, the kitchen window and the balcony.

21 Q. Have you marked the kitchen window that was open at the relevant

22 time with the letter "A"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please now turn to photograph 8A. Again, does the letter "B"

25 depict the kitchen window that was open?

Page 2870

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does "A" depict the deceased's veranda and the kitchen?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does "C" depict the part of the neighbour's apartment which you

5 used to gain access to the deceased's apartment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, during the armed conflict, did you lose any members of your

8 family?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who were they? Which members of your family?

11 A. My wife.

12 Q. What was the cause of her death?

13 A. A shell.

14 Q. What side of the confrontation lines was she on at the time of her

15 death?

16 A. She was on the line held by the Bosnian forces.

17 Q. Sir, what is your ethnicity?

18 A. A Serb.

19 Q. Were you content to be living on the Bosnian government side of

20 the confrontation lines during the conflict?

21 A. Yes. It's my town.

22 Q. Are you aware of other individuals of Serbian background who chose

23 to live in Sarajevo on the same side of the confrontation lines during the

24 armed conflict?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2871

1 Q. Now, I'd like to take you back to the clothing that the deceased

2 was wearing when you found her. You've told us that you've told us about

3 the dress that she was wearing, the blouse that she was wearing. Did you

4 see any signs of headgear, if not necessarily on her, as she lay on the

5 ground, but perhaps nearby? By "headgear," I mean any item of head

6 clothing.

7 A. I think she had a scarf, if I remember correctly.

8 Q. On the occasions that you had observed her to be praying,

9 according to her faith, had you noticed whether she typically wore any

10 headgear?

11 A. Yes. She would wear a scarf. She would always wear a scarf when

12 she was praying.

13 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

15 Is the Defence ready for cross-examining the witness?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Mr. President.

17 Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

19 Q. Witness, let me start off by wishing you good day and thanking you

20 for coming. I shall be asking you questions in French, and I know that

21 they will be perfectly interpreted.

22 Witness, you said, in answer to a question put to you this

23 morning, that your professional qualifications were that of a mechanic,

24 locksmith; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2872

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. Having asked you that question, the

2 Prosecution went on to ask you whether you were implicated in the armed

3 conflict in any way, whether you were involved in the course of your

4 employment, and your answer was no. Do you confirm that now? Do you

5 confirm your previous answer?

6 A. I do. I did not take part in the war, but I did do digging. I

7 did trench-digging.

8 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you now whether, in keeping with your

9 testimony, whether you were interviewed by a representative of the

10 Prosecution. And if your answer is yes, could you tell us what date that

11 was exactly.

12 A. I'm not sure I understood you. Do you mean here in the Tribunal

13 now? Do you mean now?

14 Q. I mean well before you came here. Before you came to the

15 Tribunal, did anybody interview you, question you, and did you give a

16 statement, one or more than one, written statements?

17 A. Yes, I did. I did that in Sarajevo.

18 Q. Witness, is it true that one of those statements is dated,

19 according to what I'm reading, the 22nd of June, 2001, to the best of your

20 recollection?

21 A. Yes, it was June, yes, 2001.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If the Chamber grants

24 permission, Mr. President, I should like perhaps to read a portion from

25 one of the statements given by the witness, but I should first of all like

Page 2873

1 to ask him whether he has read and signed his declarations -- statements,

2 sorry.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am going to

7 quote, and I apologise in advance, Mr. President -- I'm just about to do

8 that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution has the statements in front of them

10 so that they can follow your quotations. Please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am quoting from document ERN

12 03041571, and I'm going to quote in a language that is not my own native

13 language, to help the witness understand.

14 Q. Witness, you said the following: "I worked in --"

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: I think that the document from which my friend is

17 quoting is not the English statement.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think he was just indicating that he would use

19 not his own language, and I do understand not the own language of

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So I assume that it might not be English translation

21 but the original or translated version of B/C/S. That's correct?

22 MR. IERACE: Whilst I have, of course, no objection to that, I

23 would be grateful if my friend could indicate how many paragraphs it is

24 from the commencement of the statement so that I can locate the

25 relevant --

Page 2874

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please indicate where approximately

2 the lines could be found.

3 MR. IERACE: And perhaps also the first few words of the paragraph

4 so that we can --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly, Mr. President. I

6 shall be happy to do that.

7 I quoted the page a moment ago, Mr. Ierace. I thought that would

8 be sufficient. But it is the third paragraph from the end.

9 May I continue with the quotation, Mr. President? Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, I now quote what you said, and as I said, I'm going to

11 read in a language that is not my own: "I worked in the 4th

12 Battalion -- I was working in the 4th Battalion of the 101st Brigade of

13 the BiH army." End of the third paragraph from the top.

14 Did you, Witness, in fact, make that statement, in writing, in

15 your own language, which is the Serbian language, on the 22nd of June,

16 2001, and did you sign the statement?

17 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Could you now explain to us,

19 Witness, why, when you were asked by the Prosecution a moment ago -- and

20 let me say that it was on page 22, line 9. They asked you whether you

21 were involved in the conflict, the armed conflict, in any way whatsoever

22 during the time of your employment. Your answer to that question was no.

23 A. That's right, because I didn't think that my trench-digging -- my

24 trench-digging was not forced labour.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness, but I see, coming from your own mouth - and I

Page 2875

1 didn't ask a leading question myself - I see you mentioned forced labour.

2 What do you mean when you say "forced labour"? What do you mean by that,

3 Witness?

4 A. You had to go trench-digging.

5 Q. So by that, you're telling us that your employer, the army,

6 obliged you, as a civilian, to do that kind of work? Is that what you're

7 saying?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So - and I have taken note of the answer - thank you, Witness.

10 You also told us that you were a mechanic of sorts. Is that right?

11 A. Well, I worked in a factory, yes, and it produced that type of

12 equipment.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. What type of equipment are you talking about?

14 A. In peacetime, it was special purposes, that is to say, production

15 for the army.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to this line of questioning

17 as to the employment activities of the witness during the conflict. I

18 fail to see any possible relevance to the evidence this witness has come

19 here to give, that is, as to the finding of the body of the deceased and

20 the circumstances of the finding of the body of the deceased. Now,

21 anticipating that the response may well be -- it goes to credibility, one

22 wonders what the issue is which therefore requires a testing of

23 credibility, because if there is nothing in dispute as to what this

24 witness has to say about the finding of the body and what was visible

25 through the window and where the front line was and that sort of thing,

Page 2876

1 then there can be no issue of credibility. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will do so

4 willingly, especially because things ought to be quite clear for one and

5 all. A question that I have tried to summarise in French as clearly as

6 possible - and I think in the English question the term -- the word "any

7 way" was used, that is, in whatever way - the witness answered no when I

8 asked him whether he worked for the army, when he was asked whether he

9 worked for the army. In a statement that he himself gave and was taken by

10 the Prosecution, this witness stated not only that he worked for the army

11 but that throughout the war he worked for the army.

12 Now, there is a contradiction there, and I think it is a euphemism

13 that we're talking about. So although another term could have been used,

14 a euphemism was used, so it is essential on this point to know why we are

15 encountering a contradiction, because I see no restricting, leading

16 question. The witness said that as a civilian, he was engaged in what he

17 himself termed "forced labour." Now, if we're dealing with a question

18 that is so important, it is up to me, as Defence counsel, to continue to

19 ask him and to be allowed to continue to ask him questions of this kind

20 without being interrupted by the Prosecution, with their own formal

21 reasons and motives for doing so. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, both parties are entitled to make

23 objections they want to, and sometimes they are more formal than other

24 times. That's what I noticed as well. I think the objection should be

25 denied, but at the same time, I add something. Sometimes confusion is

Page 2877












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Page 2878

1 created by the questioning itself. I will allow you to put questions on

2 this matter, especially on - that's what I see you're doing - on any

3 involvement in employment in whatever way serving, perhaps direct or

4 indirectly, any military purpose. But I'd invite you to do it as clear as

5 possible, and as I indicated before to you, you get clear answers when you

6 put clear questions. Yes, please proceed.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace?

9 MR. IERACE: Just one further matter. During my friend's

10 response, he said these words, appearing at page 49, line 20, referring to

11 the testimony of the witness, "As a civilian, he was engaged in what he

12 himself termed forced labour." That is not what the witness had said. In

13 fact he'd said the opposite. And that appears at page 48, line 2 --

14 excuse me, Mr. President. Page 48, lines 2 and 3. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I read that for you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 The answer of the witness was, "That's right, because I didn't think that

17 my trench digging -- my trench digging was not forced labour." So please

18 proceed, and the objection is sustained. You were not quoting the witness

19 well but that created new confusion. I'm not blaming you for that but

20 please try to seek clarification instead of more confusion.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like us

22 to be very precise. What I heard from the mouth of the witness, that he

23 said, "forced labour." Now, the second question was because of what I had

24 heard from the words of the witness, "forced labour," I was going to ask

25 him what he meant, and that is what he then answered what he answered.

Page 2879

1 That was all, Mr. President, nothing else. If you see --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. That's not what you did,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Of course you started. When the witness has said that

4 trench digging was not forced labour, then you said, "What do you mean by

5 forced labour? What do you mean by that, Witness?" The answer was, "You

6 had to go trench digging." And that's where the confusion comes up. As I

7 told you, the answer was confusing as well, since the first answer was

8 that it was no forced labour, and if you asked him to explain what he

9 understood by forced labour, he explained that trench digging was part of

10 the forced labour. So to that extent, as I told you before, the answer

11 was at least contributing to whatever confusion there might have been

12 before the answer was given.

13 So again, I invite you to seek clarification of the issue instead

14 of further confusion.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very mindful of

16 this, Mr. President, and I'm trying every time to base my questions on the

17 answers that I was given. And thank you, Mr. President. May I continue?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, I was saying a moment ago, you, as a mechanic of sorts,

21 did you have to carry out any other tasks for the army, as you said that

22 you had worked for the army during this period?

23 A. First, I said I was working during peace time for the special

24 purposes industry, and during the war, I went trench digging.

25 Q. Witness, am I following you correctly if I say that you were --

Page 2880

1 during the peace time, you were working on military equipment?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And was there a reason that you did not continue to work on

4 military equipment during the war?

5 A. Because I would not have accepted to work anywhere for the war

6 because I did not wish the war to happen.

7 Q. But is it true that you had worked for the army?

8 A. Only trench digging.

9 Q. Witness, you said and spoke of that statement from 22nd of June,

10 2001. Is it true what you declared in this statement, that from May,

11 1992, until the end of the war, that is until the Dayton Peace Agreement

12 in November 1995, that you had worked for the army?

13 A. Yes. This was work on digging of trenches, from the 25th of May

14 until the Dayton.

15 Q. So, Witness, if I understood you correctly, if I say that during

16 those -- for those four years approximately from 1992 in May until

17 November, 1995, you only went to dig trenches?

18 A. Yes, absolutely.

19 Q. Witness, during your work there, if there were any machines that

20 were employed, that were used there, what kind? What kind of machines

21 were used by the men who were digging the trenches?

22 A. We only had picks and shovels.

23 Q. Thank you. So, Witness, there was no evacuation material,

24 evacuation equipment? For instance, ULT 150?

25 A. No.

Page 2881

1 Q. Witness, you told us a moment ago the position in which you found

2 the person who was hit by a bullet. Could you please demonstrate for us

3 again this gesture with the two hands?

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. So the hands were on the chest?

6 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, it may be a problem with the

7 translation. The English reads, my learned colleague has asked, "So the

8 hands were on the chest," whereas the gesture by the witness shows that

9 the hands were in front of the chest but not on it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is sustained, unless it's, of

11 course, a translation issue but --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, the interpretation is not

13 a problem.

14 Q. Witness, is it true to say -- no, I withdraw that. I would like

15 to go back to the photographs that you were shown.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we ask Mr. Usher and to

17 have the technical services, the ELMO, so that we can see? And I will

18 tell you, Mr. Usher, the first photograph that I would like be shown on

19 the ELMO, this is photograph 3B, ending with the numbers 204, but first of

20 all, I would like the photograph 3A, which is in colour. Here we are. I

21 think everyone has it on their screens.

22 Q. Witness, can you see this photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. We have unfortunately in the background of the

25 photograph a rather vague area which is immediately -- which comes

Page 2882

1 immediately behind the buildings. It seems to be some kind of a hill and

2 that's behind the skyscraper that we can see, approximately -- roughly in

3 the centre of the photograph. Do you see what I mean?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, could you indicate what is behind this area that we can

6 only imagine as being some kind of a hill in the mist?

7 A. In the area of Vrace. Vrace was held by the Serb army.

8 Q. My question, Witness, is unfortunately linked to the quality of

9 the photograph. We can only see a very vague mass of shadow. What is

10 behind this mass? Can you perhaps indicate? Would it be possible for you

11 to put the pointer on the photograph, and then I will try and guide you.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Yes, exactly there. Behind that point, what is there? Here we

14 can see a hill in the mist, but that's something that -- you cannot see it

15 on the screen. It's well obvious on the photograph, on the photograph

16 itself, but not on the ELMO.

17 A. This is Trebevic. It's Mount Trebevic, which is behind. It's the

18 slopes of Mount Trebevic.

19 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, you indicated that the

20 building that we can see slightly to the left, left or centre of the

21 photograph, which is exactly the one that you were pointing at, and that

22 is the building which was right on the front line; is that correct?

23 A. The building which is within the area held by the Serb army was

24 called a shopping skyscraper.

25 JUDGE ORIE: For the clarity of the transcript, the witness was

Page 2883

1 pointing at a rather yellowish apartment building at the greatest distance

2 from the photographer. It is the second building from the left, in the

3 middle of the photo.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I also have an objection. The

5 question that my friend put to the witness again purported to reflect his

6 evidence, and in my submission, it does not, and it does not in a very

7 important way. My friend drew the witness's attention to the building on

8 the left in photograph 3A, which appears in the photograph in the way that

9 you have described it. If Your Honours consult the transcript in relation

10 to what the witness said during examination-in-chief as to the identity of

11 the building that was on the front line, Your Honours will, I think,

12 appreciate the objection. I don't want to take it any further than that

13 without damaging my friend's position with the witness. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: As far as my recollection goes, the witness's

15 testimony was that this yellowish building was at the front line.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection stands, because I noticed that there

18 might have been some confusion as well as to photograph 3B before, but

19 perhaps that's part of the questioning of Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So I

20 would -- I remember that I went back in the transcript especially on this

21 issue in an earlier stage, because it seemed not to be very clear to me.

22 So if the questioning could clarify the issue, then I would like

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to proceed.

24 MR. IERACE: I'll just give you the page reference if you wish it,

25 Mr. President.

Page 2884

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

2 MR. IERACE: It's page 38, and the questioning begins at about

3 line 6. And at line 12, you will see that I referred him to a building

4 which was circled and crossed. Thank you. In photo 3B.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why I did understand at that time that

6 this was at the front line, because the question was a single building

7 marked, and I saw, under letter "B," I saw at least references to

8 different buildings. There again I think the questioning might have been

9 a bit confusing as well. I read, on 38, line 6: "Photocopies you made

10 some markings." Then at line 12 -- 13: "You have circled and crossed a

11 building, only one building." You mean by "crossed," striped?

12 MR. IERACE: Yes, and perhaps I should have used the word

13 "striped."

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of the problems is that "B" is in relation

15 with three lines. You're talking about one building. "A" refers to one

16 building. There is another circling of also one building. You said

17 "crossed." You meant striped. And that's in relation with "B," which

18 covers three buildings. So I remember that I found this rather confusing

19 at that time, but after some thinking, I thought I understood it more or

20 less. But now it might be that my understanding was wrong. So I would

21 like Mr. Piletta-Zanin to proceed and see whether any clarification can be

22 reached. Here again, clear questioning gives clear answers.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

25 my questions were clear, but was the objection sustained or -- because I

Page 2885

1 would like to answer the objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed in your line of questioning which was

3 objected to.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I take it that it was

5 rejected. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. So before I was interrupted, Witness, I was asking you a question

7 about the building which appears on the photograph, and perhaps you can

8 again indicate it for us with a pointer. Could you please place the

9 pointer on the building that you were showing us a moment ago.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's the yellowish building.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And this is a building in the centre background of the photograph,

14 slightly to the left. So Witness, this building that you just indicated,

15 is this the building that you mentioned yourself, which was known as

16 Loris?

17 A. No. Loris is this building.

18 Q. Okay. So Witness, just to be clear with regard to the transcript,

19 what was the building which you indicated?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you. So this is the second building, slightly lower, in the

22 background, but on the right-hand side. Thank you.

23 Witness, you indicated a moment ago, if I'm reading the transcript

24 correctly, and in relation to the building that you've just indicated,

25 slightly lower on the photograph to the right, that this building was on

Page 2886












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2887

1 the front line itself; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, at the time of the incident that we're

4 talking about, in July 1993, do you know whether there was important,

5 significant combat being fought in Sarajevo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, could you tell us whether this combat or other important

8 fighting was going on?

9 A. These were battles in the area of the front lines, because the

10 lines were being held and protected on both sides.

11 Q. Witness, I am checking the English transcript every time. So

12 you're saying on both sides. Who, when you say "both sides"? Which

13 armies, to be exact?

14 A. The Serb army held precisely this shopping centre building, the

15 yellowish building, and the Bosnian army held the Loris building.

16 Q. Witness, I'm going back to your written statement, and I would

17 like to ask you some questions in relation to these statements. Witness,

18 you stated that throughout the day that we are looking at, which is the

19 day of the incident, you were not able to get into the apartment. And I'm

20 talking about the day, not the evening. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes. Throughout the day. I arrived at half past 7.00 in the

22 evening, 1930.

23 Q. I'm going to interrupt you. Thank you. Yes, I was talking about

24 the day. I was not talking about the evening.

25 Witness, did you state that during that day when the incident

Page 2888

1 happened, you were not able to get into the apartment because there was a

2 lot of shooting in that area, in the area around the apartment building?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Witness, therefore, on that day there was no shooting?

5 A. No, there was no shooting.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

7 ask you for a moment or two so that I can consult with my colleague, so

8 that I can find the elements that I'm going to quote again, if you'll

9 allow me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, how did you get into the apartment of the person who had

14 been shot? Could you just remind us?

15 A. When I arrived in front of the building, the neighbours were

16 waiting for me, and also the caretaker of the building, who took me to the

17 next-door entrance and I climbed up to the fifth floor, when I got into

18 the apartment from which I got into the apartment of late Hajrija. I

19 asked the lady who lived in that apartment, and she said that -- that

20 it's -- that I was going to do it at my own risk but that she was not

21 opposed to it. So I entered the apartment, I opened the balcony door,

22 which was closed with some foil, and on the -- from the next-door

23 neighbour, next door to Hajrija, I moved the foil and I quickly jumped

24 from one balcony to the other because at any moment one could expect that

25 a sniper would start shooting. I did this at my own risk. And then I

Page 2889

1 crouched down and opened the door. Thankfully, it was not locked. And

2 that's how I got into the apartment.

3 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. In your written statement,

4 didn't you say that when you went into -- from one apartment to the other,

5 you had to quickly go from -- across the little wall from one balcony to

6 another, because of fear of snipers?

7 A. Naturally. I had to do it quickly because I was afraid of

8 shooting.

9 Q. You were afraid of shooting, but there was no shooting?

10 A. Yes, that's true. There was no shooting.

11 Q. Thank you for this answer. I would like to go back to the battles

12 that you told us had been going on during the -- this period of time. Do

13 you know of any battles that were going on around Mount Igman?

14 A. Well, at that time, as far as I know, there was no fighting on

15 Igman.

16 Q. And if to your knowledge there was some fighting on Mount Igman,

17 when would that have been?

18 A. There was --

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that.


21 MR. IERACE: The question is highly speculative and not within

22 this witness's competence, having regard to his earlier answers, to

23 respond to. "And if to your knowledge there was some fighting on Mount

24 Igman, when would that have been?" That's highly speculative. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The answer of the witness was that as far as he

Page 2890

1 knows, there was no fighting on Igman. Next question was, "Then if to

2 your knowledge there was some fighting on Mount Igman, when would that

3 have been?" The question suggests that you are asking the witness about a

4 different period of time. The proper way of putting this question to him

5 would have been, "Are you aware of any fighting at Mount Igman at another

6 period of time as I just mentioned?" That's the first question you'll

7 have to put to the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, because apart from the

8 relevance at this moment, or credibility issue, the objection is therefore

9 sustained. And I indicated to you that if you're interested to know

10 whether he has any knowledge of at other moments any fighting on Mount

11 Igman, you could have asked it in a different way less confusing.

12 But I'd like to know what the relevance is. Is this a credibility

13 issue, since we are really far away, I think both in distance and in

14 subject matter, on what the witness has testified about. So either

15 credibility is at stake or you should explain to the witness what your

16 case is in respect of the issue that you're asking him about. Would you

17 please do it briefly, to tell us what?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But

19 I think that I will come back to this question later. I will ask now some

20 other questions.

21 Q. Witness, thank you. Witness, you told us that fighting was

22 underway between the two sides in the area and that this -- how far from

23 the flat that you are talking about was this fighting taking place?

24 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I do not recall the witness

25 saying that. Perhaps my learned colleague could take us to the transcript

Page 2891

1 where he said that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this will take

4 some time but I'll find it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please first proceed and ask co-counsel to

6 find the proper place, or do it during the next break, unless you're

7 finished by cross-examination by then. Please proceed with any other

8 questions you'd like to put to the witness.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you very

10 much. I'd like to -- that Mrs. Pilipovic can hardly find the exact

11 location in the English transcript because of some technical problems, but

12 I'll do it during the break. Thank you for that.

13 Q. To the best of my recollection, I think that you told us that

14 there was some fighting going underway. Now, my question is how far was

15 this -- how far from the apartment was this fighting taking place?

16 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think your objection might be the same since it's

18 referring to the same issue.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I gave you the opportunity to find

21 out about the place, and then now move to another subject or put your

22 questioning in a different way. I will at the same time see whether I can

23 assist you in finding any location in the transcript. Please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will proceed.

25 Q. Witness, you told us a while ago that you were under the

Page 2892

1 obligation to dig trenches. Can you tell us if these trenches -- can you

2 tell us, where were those trenches?

3 A. From the Loris building along the line right of the Grbavica

4 stadium and Hrasno Brdo, above the stadium, up to Mojmilo.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. What stadium are you talking about exactly?

6 A. Grbavica stadium, that is the Zeleznicar club stadium.

7 Q. Thank you. Thank you for answering that, Witness. Thank you.

8 And as you were digging those trenches, were you digging them by night, by

9 daytime, or on -- or both by daytime and at night-time?

10 A. Both at night and by day.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. And when you were doing this for the army, would

12 you wear a uniform when you did that?

13 A. No, no. I did that wearing my own clothes.

14 Q. So you never wore a uniform throughout that time that you worked

15 for the army? Is that so?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Even, Witness, either when you worked at night-time or in daytime

18 on the front line?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

20 Q. Witness, were you alone when you dug those trenches?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Witness, can you tell us who else was there with you?

23 A. There were my fellow Serbs who had stayed in Sarajevo, by and

24 large.

25 Q. Witness, is it that it was only Serbs who dug those trenches?

Page 2893

1 A. No.

2 Q. Witness, other people who were there with you, did they wear

3 uniforms?

4 A. No, they did not, but they were -- they were Muslims who were --

5 refused to fight, and they were the ones who were involved in digging.

6 Q. Witness, when you were out digging those trenches, would it be

7 generally speaking on the front line or right next to the front line? Do

8 we agree on that?

9 A. Well, those were military lines.

10 Q. Witness, when you worked there, whether be it by day or by night,

11 would there be some military who would be there with your group of

12 workers?

13 A. The military were behind us, as we dug those trenches. Military,

14 I mean the Bosnian army, the army of Bosnian Muslims.

15 Q. So in a way, one could say that you were under the military

16 escort; is that it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, those soldiers who escorted you, did they carry weapons?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, first of all, I found the line you

20 need, if you please write down, page 58, line 4. At least I think that's

21 where it is, 11.52.54. That's my -- that's the first thing I'd like to

22 say to you. And then could you please indicate at this moment the

23 relevance of the military escort of those digging trenches at other

24 places? Is this a --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do so,

Page 2894

1 Mr. President. I shall be very happy. It may take some time but I

2 believe we are here defending -- Mr. President, the significance of this

3 question has to do with alleged campaign of stabbing and shelling and the

4 wounding of civilians. We are discovering today that the civilians were

5 engaged, and the term which this witness used was "forced labour." It

6 wasn't me. It was the witness who used that term. That is that the

7 civilians were taken to dig trenches under the military escort at night,

8 which I believe shows, which in some cases it very difficult to draw the

9 difference, when there are civilians who are employed on the front line by

10 an army at night, when evidently they can be some gunfire, and that is a

11 legitimate action.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But is it in dispute that military action

13 against those digging trenches at the front line is not permitted?

14 Mr. Ierace, could you please make the position -- I mean, is this

15 part of your case, that you say, whenever there was any shooting on,

16 whether civilians or military people, but at least military people,

17 accompanied by military men digging trenches at the front line, at day or

18 at night, that this is part of your case, that -- that's not part of the

19 case of the Prosecution, as I understand.

20 MR. IERACE: That's correct, Mr. President. It's not part of the

21 case.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I would say this is, I would

23 say, a clear answer to the situation you are elaborating on at this

24 moment, does not fall, and I never understood it to fall, within the

25 Prosecution's case.

Page 2895












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2896

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understand

2 that, and I thank you, except that the Prosecution produced numerous

3 medical documents establishing that civilian victims were exposed to

4 shelling. And the Defence is trying to show - but we were

5 interrupted - the Defence is trying to show that there were civilians used

6 for military purposes who were - and that was to be my next

7 question - who, after that, were pronounced civilians, which creates a

8 false image of this alleged idea of a campaign, and that is why the

9 Defence needs to lay the foundation for that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your point. Your point is

11 that -- I don't know whether that's your case or not. I can't deduce that

12 from the pre-trial -- the Defence pre-trial brief. But do I understand

13 you well that the involvement, whether forced or not forced, of any

14 civilians in military activities, digging trenches, casts a different

15 light on attacks on civilians or on this -- I would like to know exactly

16 what your case is. I mean -- yes, please indicate that more clearly. I

17 mean, an attack against civilians, would you say that they were at home

18 and these homes were shelled, that is justified because civilians were

19 involved in trench-digging at the front line, or is there any other -- I

20 do not clearly understand what your position is, and I've gone through

21 your pre-trial brief recently again, and I did notice that you are

22 opposing against the campaign of shelling against civilians. But we now

23 come to a very specific issue in relation to that, and I'd like you to

24 give at least then a very brief outline, perhaps two or three minutes.

25 That should be enough, I think, just to indicate what exactly the case of

Page 2897

1 the Defence then is.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

3 much. Your Honours, this witness is testifying about a specific

4 incident. This witness himself - and I never forced him to do that - said

5 certain things which made me think.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please --

7 MR. IERACE: I respectfully suggest that the witness not be

8 present during the --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we have one problem. It should -- Rule

10 90(H) says that the case of the Defence should be presented to the

11 witness. So if we lead him out of Court, we might not fully obey to Rule

12 90(H).

13 MR. IERACE: That's not the part that concerns me, Mr. President.


15 MR. IERACE: The part is the summarising of the answers, the

16 responses, that this witness has given according to the perception of the

17 Defence. That's what concerns me.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that objection is sustained. So would you

19 please, then, apart from summarising the testimony of the witness, explain

20 what the Defence case in this respect is, because that's what Rule 90(H)

21 requires, and that's what I ask you to do.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. The

23 Defence case says that there were days when there was no fighting insofar

24 as the civilian population is concerned. But our case is -- in all the

25 legal systems, in all the judicial systems, the Defence is entitled to

Page 2898

1 explain what it has in mind. The Defence also is entitled to

2 cross-examine a witness, and when the Defence cross-examines the witness,

3 then it is entitled to cover the things mentioned in the statements of

4 this witness. And there are things which, in the Defence's eyes, are of

5 essential importance, and if that is so, then the Defence may examine the

6 witness on matters which this witness himself has raised. Personally, as

7 far as the Defence is concerned, I do not want to be an accomplice to a

8 wrong, to an incomplete defence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I just asked you to explain the case of the Defence

10 in respect of the questions you were asking to the witness. I'll give you

11 an opportunity again if you think it's -- because you're supposed to

12 explain that, not only to the Chamber but even to the witness.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do that,

14 Mr. President. My last question, if I may, was to refer to possible

15 incidents which happened along the trenches. That is where,

16 unfortunately, there were some wounded or perhaps dead people, whether

17 civilians or the military. It is very important to know that, because

18 Mr. Galic is being charged with a campaign against civilians. If there

19 were civilians on the front used during fighting for military tasks, then

20 the matter is completely different. And it is a matter of great

21 importance. If I'm not allowed to do that, then of course I will

22 withdraw.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that it's not part

24 of the case of the Prosecution that -- that it's not the case of the

25 Prosecution that attacks on civilians in these positions were part of this

Page 2899

1 campaign against civilians. That's what -- as I understand it. If I'm

2 wrong, Mr. Ierace, please tell me. So I'm just wondering what the

3 relevance is. Because what you say is civilians may have taken part in

4 the preparation, or at least have been involved in whatever way in

5 military activities, and you point at a certain situation which is -- of

6 which the witness has testified that he, to that extent, participated in

7 military activities. But that's not part of the campaign, as I

8 understand. I do understand that the campaign is about other things, so

9 that's not part of it. And of course, if the Prosecution say so, we'll

10 have to understand their charges to this limited extent. So therefore,

11 the relevance of the presence of civilians at a place and at a time and

12 engaged in activities where they might have been attacked, that's not part

13 of the campaign attacking civilians. So I will confer with my colleagues

14 during the break whether - perhaps we might not immediately have the break

15 if there are any additional questions or not. You may put them - and give

16 you the final answer, but this is what is at least provisionally in my

17 mind at this moment.

18 Could you please proceed, then, perhaps with another subject, and

19 you'll hear after the break whether the subject you just touched upon

20 bears some relevance as far as the Chamber sees.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again,

22 thank you, and from the bottom of my heart, for these clarifications. I

23 shall move on to another question -- to another subject.

24 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, was there a police or judicial report

25 made immediately after the incident that we are talking about?

Page 2900

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, to the best of your

3 recollection, when was this police or judicial report made?

4 A. It was done the next day, which was the 18th of July, in the

5 morning hours, because that evening there was no electricity, so it was

6 requested that nobody be allowed into the apartment.

7 Q. Witness, this type of report which was made about the accident,

8 was it the regular type of report?

9 A. Well, at that time, the report that was done, the investigation

10 that was done, I guess that yes, it was quite regular, what was usually

11 done.

12 Q. Witness, are you aware of other analogous incidents, incidents

13 like the one that we are discussing now?

14 A. There were a number of cases, X number of cases.

15 Q. And Witness, to your knowledge, this procedure of the

16 investigation and the police or judicial report, was that the regular kind

17 of procedure applied?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this. We shall now move on to a different

20 string of questions, because I am not making any correlation between the

21 two. But I'd like to talk about the stadium which you just mentioned, and

22 you told us that it was the Grbavica stadium. Do you remember the

23 stadium, Witness?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you for this answer. You said somewhere, I believe, that

Page 2901

1 you went to dig trenches, among other places, in the area of the Grbavica

2 stadium; is that correct?

3 A. I said it, and I said it was the right-hand side of the auxiliary

4 stadium at Grbavica.

5 Q. Witness, why on that side only?

6 A. Well, that was the side, that is, that line which was controlled.

7 That was the line between the two armies.

8 Q. Witness, if I understand you right, the stadium was, in a way,

9 held by both sides; that is, it was partitioned. That is, one side was

10 held by one party and its other side by the other party; is that correct?

11 A. No. No. The stadium, as a stadium, was controlled by the Serb

12 army.

13 Q. Witness, can I then ask you what time frame do you have in mind

14 when you tell us that the stadium was held by the Serbs?

15 A. Well, from the beginning of the war until the end of the war, the

16 stadium was under their control.

17 Q. Witness, I'm moving on to another subject?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But I believe it is now time

19 for our break, Mr. President. I'm looking at the clock.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you give us any

21 indication of how much time you would need after the break?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, it will depend on the

23 answer that we shall hear from you, Mr. President, in a way, but I do not

24 think otherwise too much. Perhaps five, at the outside.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes, you say? And if we would allow you to

Page 2902

1 continue the questioning, how much time would that take?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, about ten minutes, I

3 believe, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I'll try to do some

5 bookkeeping during the break on -- more specific on time used for

6 questioning. I'm not talking about time used for debate on lines of

7 questioning.

8 We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we bring in the witness, I would like to avoid

12 whatever misunderstanding on the issue of trench-digging civilians at or

13 near front lines. Did I understand the Prosecution's position well that

14 whatever attacks may be made against those civilians engaged in these

15 activities at these locations is not part of the Prosecution's case?

16 MR. IERACE: With one qualification, Mr. President.


18 MR. IERACE: If I could just insert the word "whilst," that is

19 whilst engaged in those activities at those locations, yes, that does not

20 form part of the Prosecution case.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would that mean that if you would attack

22 them in their homes, that would be different?

23 MR. IERACE: Quite.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And on their way home?

25 MR. IERACE: Yes. That is different. Civilians who were engaged

Page 2903

1 in trench digging at the front line, near the front line, does not form

2 part of the Prosecution case, but if those same civilians were attacked

3 elsewhere in the city or areas away from the front lines, that is

4 different.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Even if it would be intentionally done knowing that

6 this civilian had been engaged - well, let's say over the last 24 hours or

7 the last 48 hours - in trench digging at the front lines, and if a

8 targeted attack for these reasons on these civilians was made, would that

9 be part of the Prosecution's case?

10 MR. IERACE: Well, it's part of the Prosecution case in the sense

11 that they are not legitimate targets when they are not engaged in those

12 activities, and at the time they are engaged in those activities.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we wanted to have this quite

14 clear. You may make any observation at this time before we --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I'm

16 reading in the transcript, and I'm going to be very precise, line 24, page

17 72.54.49, that you asked the following question: [In English] "On the way

18 home," [Interpretation] but one could also ask the Prosecution the

19 following question in reverse: From their homes to the trenches? That is

20 the only precision I wanted to make.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, that was included as well. So

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this results in the decision that the engagement of

23 this witness in trench digging at the front line as such is of no

24 relevance for the case, nor for the Defence, so for that reason, we will

25 not allow you to question on that. But you have heard what limitations

Page 2904












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2905

1 were expressed by the Prosecution, so I don't know whether there is any

2 relevant questioning on that, but we now know exactly where we are.

3 Then the witness may be brought in to the courtroom again.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, very briefly in relation to the

6 earlier objection I took to the question asked by my learned colleague, in

7 which he purported to summarise the witness's earlier evidence by saying

8 that he had indicated there was fighting in the area, might I say that

9 having looked at the reference that you, Mr. President, have provided, I

10 maintain my objection. In that part of the transcript, the witness was

11 effectively saying in response to questions by my friend, that there was

12 fighting in Sarajevo. The question to which I objected implied his

13 evidence was that there was fighting in the vicinity of the apartment

14 block - that's what I object to, thank you - at the relevant time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. To

17 be extremely precise, I understood the Prosecution to have told us a

18 moment ago that it wasn't its case when it was talking about civilians in

19 the trenches, but I should like to hear their opinion with respect to

20 civilians going from their place of residence, from their homes, to

21 working in the trenches. This is a very important question, and as we

22 have not had a formal answer from the Prosecution, I would like to hear

23 its views. So I'm saying from the civilians' domicile to the trenches.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. There can be no

25 misunderstanding that the Prosecution limited the exclusion of trench

Page 2906

1 digging from its case at the very moment when these people, at the front

2 lines, were engaged in trench digging. The answer was "whilst." So going

3 home, coming from home, that's not part of the exclusion.

4 Would you please bring in the witness, Mr. Usher?

5 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Witness --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is to say, Mr. President,

9 do I have your permission to ask a question regarding what the witness

10 said in -- on page 29, line 11, following a question from the Prosecution

11 regarding the fighting that took place, if I remember correctly, around

12 the building that the witness said was the Loris building, I believe?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as long as you quote correctly,

14 you're allowed to ask a question, and just -- page 29 -- and I'll check

15 what is in --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, there was a question that the Prosecution asked you and

18 that was --

19 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I understood we were still

20 attempting to locate the reference given by my friend. I have looked at

21 page 29, line 11, and I don't see any relevant material at that point.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree that on my laptop this is true as

23 well.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me assist

25 Mr. Ierace once again. If he would like to look at line 7, a little

Page 2907

1 higher up, and he'll find the beginning of that question. I don't think

2 there is a great distance between 7 and 11. I can quote it in English, if

3 you prefer, Mr. Ierace. No difficulty for me there.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I seek to keep this civil, but I think

5 my friend will find that it's not page 29. Perhaps he could check the

6 page number.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] On my transcript or screen, I

8 see something that says "29," then I see a ".7." But let me check that.

9 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, Mr. President. Earlier,

10 Mr. President, you gave a page reference 58, line 4. I wonder if that's

11 the passage that my friend has in mind.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, no. No, not at all.

13 What I am referring to is --

14 JUDGE ORIE: If you indicate the page and then read it in English,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, page 58 was my

17 own intervention, with respect to page 58.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please find the line and quote what you want to put

19 to the witness.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is precisely

21 the line that I quoted a moment ago. It says, page 29: [In English]

22 "Shelling and sniper fire and so-called death sowers."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: And the question was from Mr. Ierace: "When

25 you say that the forces of the Serb army acted from those areas - from

Page 2908

1 Grbavica, the shopping centre, and Hrasno Brdo - in what way did they

2 act?" [Interpretation] Do you want me to read it again? It is quoted,

3 with all the necessary courtesy, and it is page 29, line 7 for the answer,

4 and line 4 for the question. Are we looking at the same transcript,

5 Mr. Ierace? Do we have the same transcript?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have. I'll give a comment later on -- please

7 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I'll later comment on what --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to accept

9 that, Mr. President. I hope that if I'm quoting exactly, I won't be

10 interrupted.

11 Q. Witness, a question that you were asked and that I quoted again a

12 moment ago, that is to say, were there any forces in the region, your

13 answer was the following: "There was shelling, there was sniper fire,

14 and, let us say, there was this weapon called the death sower." Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, for that answer. Now, the

18 Prosecution did not specify the date it was referring to; at least, I

19 don't see it on my transcript. What date, Witness, what period were you

20 referring to when you said that?

21 A. Well, there were a lot of dates. It's difficult for me to say

22 exactly now, here and now, what day it was, but it was frequent during the

23 war.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. I heard you say "cesto" in your language,

25 which means often or frequently. Do you confirm this frequency of

Page 2909

1 shooting in the region? Do you indeed say that it was frequent?

2 A. Well, it was a specific area. It was the area where there was

3 most shooting and shelling.

4 Q. Witness, these exchanges of gunfire and shelling, how often was

5 that? Once a month, once every six months, or a more frequent rhythm?

6 Did it follow a more frequent pattern? Every week, every day? To the

7 best of your recollections.

8 A. As far as I remember, I know that it was frequent, that there was

9 frequent firing on both sides. Both sides opened fire frequently from

10 1992, August, I think, the month of August, and then from August up until

11 1993, or rather, the end of 1993.

12 Q. Thank you for that very clear answer, Witness. When you say "very

13 frequent," do I take it to mean every day?

14 A. Well, almost every day. Sometimes less, sometimes more, but

15 almost every day, and it depended, of course.

16 Q. So I take it that in that particular region, almost every day,

17 practically every day, there were exchanges of gunfire between the two

18 sides. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, for the clarity of your answer.

21 Could you now tell us, Witness - very precisely, of course, if you

22 are able to - the distance between the building that you said was called

23 Loris, the Loris building, and the apartment belonging to the individual

24 that we are discussing within the framework of the incident that took

25 place.

Page 2910

1 A. The distance was approximately 400 metres as the crow flies.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness. I was going to ask you: Is it as the crow

3 flies, a direct line? But you've already answered that.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Witness, as we have just heard, there was fighting every day. Do

6 you happen to know if the Bosnian forces wore uniforms?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us, please, what kind of uniforms they wore? Could

9 you describe them to us, please, Witness?

10 A. At the beginning, they wore different types of patterned uniform,

11 but later on they were issued the camouflage type of uniform.

12 Q. As far as you remember, Witness, were there any soldiers who did

13 not have a uniform?

14 A. Yes. At the beginning, there were.

15 Q. Thank you once again for the clarity of your answer.

16 Witness, do you happen to know if close to the area we're

17 discussing now - and let me be more specific. We're talking about this

18 400-metre distance between the apartment in question and the building that

19 you said was called the Loris building - were there any positions,

20 military positions or facilities?

21 A. No, there were no military positions. The only thing is that the

22 front line was actually the Loris building, which was held by the Bosnian

23 army, the BiH army.

24 Q. Witness, this particular building was, therefore, a building in

25 which the Bosnian army was situated; is that what you're saying, for

Page 2911

1 purposes of clarity?

2 A. Yes, correct.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Now, to the best of your knowledge,

4 was there -- in respect of that building, was there any command post for

5 the troops which were engaged there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Witness, do I take it that the troops were situated in the

8 building itself, on the front line, without any sort of command post; they

9 had no command post with them?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. The command post was on the square itself,

11 in a skyscraper there.

12 Q. Witness, could you tell us, as you seem to know this, where the

13 command post of the Bosnian army was located exactly, more specifically.

14 A. It was in a skyscraper called number 2, the number 2 skyscraper,

15 or Dvojka. A number was assigned to the skyscraper, and it was the number

16 2.

17 Q. Witness, this skyscraper, did it by any chance appear on either of

18 the photographs that were shown to you today?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I take a moment to confer

21 with my colleague, please, Your Honour?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, could you tell us on which photograph that command post

Page 2912

1 appears, if you're able to do so.

2 A. It's this building here.

3 Q. Very well. Witness, for the transcript, could you give us the

4 number of the photograph? And you will see that number in the upper

5 right-hand corner. Could you do that for us, please.

6 A. 2A.

7 Q. Witness, we'll be coming back to that photograph, but let me ask

8 you first whether, on the other photographs that you were shown, can you

9 also see that same building on the other photographs?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd be grateful if, for the benefit of

11 the transcript, we could have a description. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please give that.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to do so, very

14 willingly, yes, but I didn't hear an audible answer from the witness. I

15 asked him whether there were other photographs depicting the building with

16 the command post.

17 Q. Could the witness give an audible answer, please?

18 A. It is this building. It is the skyscraper on the square and it is

19 called the Number 2 Skyscraper or Dvojka.

20 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, my question again: Does it appear on any of

21 the other photographs that you have shown us, except on the 2A photograph,

22 which show the building from a different angle?

23 A. Yes, 2A and 3A.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. The one we have on our screens now is

25 photograph 3A. May we see photograph 2A again, please? Could you place

Page 2913












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2914

1 2A on the ELMO again, please? Witness, for the transcript, we have

2 photograph 2A, and I think it is in fact the window of the apartment that

3 we can see open, and in the centre, looking outwards, is the building that

4 the witness has indicated. It has not been marked with any sign, any

5 mark, on the photograph, but it is slightly towards the left of the

6 rectangular -- rectangle. Now, as far as the other photograph is

7 concerned, we see once again a building that is slightly towards left of

8 centre, it is slightly yellow in colour. Witness, having made those

9 precisions, I should like to ask you to tell us whether the building with

10 the command post is within the same line of the apartment?

11 MR. IERACE: I object.

12 THE INTERPRETER: "Does it follow the line of the apartment? Is

13 in line with the apartment?"

14 MR. IERACE: In the earlier part of that passage from my friend,

15 he purported to identify, to describe the building identified by the

16 witness in photograph 3A as being, and I now read from the computer in

17 front of me, "It is slightly towards the left of the rectangular --

18 rectangle. Now, as far as the other photograph is concerned, we see once

19 again a building slightly towards left of centre, it is slightly yellow in

20 colour." On my understanding of what building the witness has indicated,

21 having regard to photo 3A, it is not the building which is slightly left

22 of centre and yellow. Perhaps for the sake of clarity, we could ask the

23 witness to mark on photograph 3A the building he identifies as having

24 contained a headquarters of the Bosnian army, Bosnian government army.

25 Thank you.

Page 2915

1 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't that be a good clarification,

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Yes, please?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Mr. President. I

4 am happy to have the witness mark the building, but for the Defence and

5 its purposes, this was very clear to us, in black.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then take the black marker, Mr. Usher?

7 You're using blue for the Prosecution, black for the Defence. So in order

8 to avoid any misunderstanding, we now invite the witness to mark the

9 building in which the headquarters were located. Is that --

10 A. [Marks].

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, I can see, very badly on the screen, but I don't see it

13 very clearly.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you perhaps

15 move this photograph a little?

16 Q. Because I believe that you have made these markings on the outside

17 of the photograph, or at least what seems to be --

18 A. Yes, I put an arrow.

19 Q. So the building, Witness -- yes, okay. Could you perhaps just put

20 a circle around the building? The building that you are indicating to us

21 as being the one in question?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you. That's perfect now.

24 Witness, I will ask you again this question: What is the distance

25 between this building that you indicated by circling it in black colour

Page 2916

1 and the window that we can see on this picture, the open window?

2 A. About 300 metres, as the crow flies.

3 Q. Thank you again for giving this clear answer.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, there was

5 an objection, and I was going to ask about the line between the

6 buildings. Could I ask this question again regarding the line?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Perhaps alignment.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not remember exactly what question you

9 wanted to put, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you could please assist me.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. I was about to

11 ask a question which was the following: "Would you agree, Witness, to say

12 that the open window of this apartment is exactly in the line, is aligned,

13 with this building that you have just put a circle around?"

14 MR. IERACE: I object to the question, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will be quite clear to you,

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. As you've learned at school, two points can always be

17 connected by one line. So the question as such -- you and I are in one

18 line. I am in one line with Mr. Ierace as well. I am in line with

19 everyone, because two points are always connected by a line. So if you

20 would rephrase the question and --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Willingly.

22 Q. Witness, could you confirm that opposite the open window, at the

23 time, there was also a skyscraper in which there was a military command

24 post?

25 A. Yes, yes, it can be seen.

Page 2917

1 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. Could you tell us the name

2 of the square? I believe that there was a square which is formed by this

3 -- a number of these buildings?

4 A. This was the Trg Pere Kosorica or Pere Kosorica Square. Now it is

5 known as the Heroes' Square, Trg Heroje.

6 Q. Witness, these buildings therefore make part of this Heroes'

7 Square?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I remind you that you said you

10 would need five minutes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I do remember,

12 Mr. President, and I -- this seems an excellent question to end on. I

13 thank you so much.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: So that your last question was the excellent one. I

16 thought it was the next question to end on. So I do understand that was

17 your last question. Is there any -- yes, is there any -- I would say

18 always the last question is always the best one to finish with.

19 Mr. Ierace would there be any need for re-examination of the

20 witness?

21 MR. IERACE: Just one point, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace.

24 Q. Sir, you had read to you a line from your statement that you made

25 on the 22nd of June, 2001, which was as follows: "I was working in the

Page 2918

1 4th Battalion of the 101 Brigade, BIH army." Do you remember that that

2 was read to you?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. I'll now read to you -- I'll withdraw that. I think that was the

5 last sentence of a paragraph. I will now read to you the sentences that

6 came before it, being the paragraph. Please listen. From May, 1992,

7 until the end of the war in November of 1995, with the Dayton Agreement, I

8 was working as a civilian in the BIH army. The job initially entailed

9 digging trenches in the area of Trg Heroje, then the area of Hrasno Brdo

10 towards the area of Momijlo. This is where the main reservoir is

11 located. I was working in the 4th Battalion of the 101 Brigade, BIH

12 army." I'll stop reading at that point.

13 Is that the paragraph, the third paragraph, which appears in your

14 statement?

15 A. Yes. That's what I said.

16 Q. And is it correct? In other words, is the information that I have

17 read out correct?

18 A. Yes, yes, that I had worked. I was digging trenches.

19 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Ierace.

21 Yes, a question will now be put to you by Judge Nieto-Navia

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like photo 2A to be put on the ELMO,

24 please. Would you please circle the building where the command post was

25 located at that time?

Page 2919

1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we give you a -- we use a red marker now. A

2 red, thick marker at this moment is to be used for a question from the

3 Bench.

4 A. [Marks]

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then a question will be put to you by Judge El Mahdi.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

8 would like to ask you to be a little more precise on the question on the

9 way that you were involved in the unit, in the army, in the Bosnian army.

10 Were you forced to do this work? Was this forced labour? Or you were

11 doing it as a volunteer? Were you employed, a volunteer, or were you

12 forced?

13 A. I was forced to do work.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And were you paid for this work?

15 You were not able to refuse this work? Was this a general rule that, for

16 instance, all men or people of a certain age were to participate in

17 military activities?

18 A. Yes. I had to. I had to do it. I was forced to do it.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] All right. Now, just another

20 question: I am referring to the photograph 3A that we saw a moment ago,

21 and if I understand you correctly, you marked a building that you had

22 called Loris building, and in the background -- rather, the centre of the

23 photograph, you said there was a skyscraper held by the Serbian army [In

24 English] where the shopping centre was; is it correct?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 2920

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So to the left is the command

2 post. Is that where the command post of the Bosnian army was located?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] All right. So this photograph

5 was taken from the window of the lady who had been shot, and that you told

6 us about, the incident that you told us about. The photo was taken from

7 her window?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Since I have no further questions for you, as I can

11 see it now, this ends your examination as a witness. I'd very much like

12 to thank you for coming this far away and giving all the information this

13 Court and the parties need. This Court needs the information in order to

14 make the decisions it will have to make. Once again, thank you very much

15 for coming and have a good journey home.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have to take decisions on the documents tendered

19 into evidence. Madam Registrar, could you please name them? First we

20 have a video, I think. Is that correct?

21 THE REGISTRAR: The video is P3280E in the unredacted form, under

22 seal.


24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might that be a confidential exhibit

Page 2921

1 because of its unredacted nature? I will later tender --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's under seal, the video. I think that's what

3 the registrar said.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then similar might be true for the

6 photographs, since we noticed that on the back of every photograph the

7 name of the witness appears.

8 So Madam Registrar, that would be ...?

9 THE REGISTRAR: P3216, P3217, P3218, P3219, P3220, P3221, P3222,

10 P3223, P3224, P3225, P3226, P3227, P3228, P3229, P3230, P3231, all under

11 seal.

12 JUDGE ORIE: They are admitted into evidence. I told you that I

13 would come back to the confusion at the beginning of this hearing. I'll

14 try to do some confusion analysis. Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked whether he

15 could put a question to the witness in relation to what he testified on

16 page 29, and he gave another line which was not exactly the line but was,

17 well, close to it. And I think he explained to us that it was about the

18 Loris building and the fighting.

19 One of the problems is that on page 29, the question was about the

20 Grbavica shopping area, centre, about Hrasno Brdo, and so there was no

21 mention whatsoever made to the Loris building. On the other hand, at page

22 58, where we had some discussion about before, in the immediate context of

23 page 58, the Loris building was mentioned. The problem is that on page

24 29, I think the name Loris did not appear yet in the transcript, because,

25 as far as I can find it, it's on page 38 [sic] for the first time. The

Page 2922












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2923

1 question is put whether the witness knows the name of the building. So

2 what we see here again is that clarity, precision, will save us a lot of

3 time.

4 We have still got seven minutes. If we can make a start with the

5 next witness, I would be glad to do so, but if you say that this would be

6 a real problem, Mr. Ierace, then we might have to break now.

7 Mr. Mundis.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we can certainly start with the next

9 witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's give it a try and see how far we come.

11 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution calls Fatima Salcin. And for the

12 benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Defence, this witness will be

13 testified with respect to scheduled sniping incident number 23.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Would you please bring in the witness.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Salcin, can you hear me in a language which you

17 understand?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You're called as a witness, and the Rules require you

20 to make a solemn declaration at the beginning of your testimony. The text

21 will be given to you by the usher. Could you please make that

22 declaration.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 2924

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Salcin, since your voice is soft, could you

3 please come close to the microphones so that we can hear you well. You

4 will first be questioned by the Prosecution, and I have to tell you

5 already that this morning -- or we are close already to the moment where

6 we will have a break until tomorrow. So today it will be only for a

7 rather short period of time. So we start with the questioning and we'll

8 have then the break until tomorrow.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

10 I'm saying "tomorrow," but of course I mean to say "next Monday,"

11 because during the weekend the Court will not be sitting.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

15 Q. Mrs. Salcin, for the record, can you please state your full name

16 and spell your last name, please.

17 A. My name is Fatima Salcin, S-a-l-c-i-n.

18 Q. Mrs. Salcin, can you please tell the Trial Chamber the date of

19 your birth and the town or city in which you were born, please.

20 A. My date of birth. I was born in 1949, and I was born in Prizren,

21 I think. I'm not sure whether I said it correctly.

22 Q. Mrs. Salcin, do you recall approximately when the war began in

23 Bosnia?

24 A. I think that it was in 1992.

25 Q. In what city were you living at that time?

Page 2925

1 A. I lived in Alipasino Polje, C building.

2 Q. Mrs. Salcin, in what city is that address located?

3 A. Bosanska Street 14, the street.

4 Q. And is that street located in the city of Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's correct that you lived in the city of Sarajevo throughout

7 the duration of the war; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When the war began in Sarajevo, did you become aware of incidents

10 involving sniping?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did there come a time, Mrs. Salcin, when you were shot in the city

13 of Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes. Yes. I was wounded by the Olympic village.

15 Q. Do you recall the approximate date when you were wounded?

16 A. I think -- I'm a little confused now.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Just take your time if you need your time to answer.

18 You don't have to be nervous. We'll understand fully that you'll need

19 some time to hear the answer, to think about -- to hear the question, to

20 think about the answer. And if you would not know something, it's no

21 problem; just tell us.

22 A. It was the 13th of June, I think it was. I think that was the

23 date -- that was the day when I was wounded. I think so.


25 Q. Do you recall which year that was, Mrs. Salcin?

Page 2926

1 A. I think it was 1995, as far as I can remember.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time, and I know that we've

3 only been underway for a few moments.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may continue, if the interpreters' booth

5 and the technicians could assist us for a couple of minutes. If not, then

6 of course we have to stop.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.


9 Q. Mrs. Salcin, on the date that you were shot, were you with anyone

10 on that day?

11 A. Yes. I was with Dzemal.

12 Q. And who is Dzemal?

13 A. Dzemal is my son-in-law -- my brother-in-law, in fact.

14 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber Dzemal's family name.

15 A. Maljanovic.

16 Q. Had you and Dzemal been somewhere on that day together?

17 A. Yes. Yes. He went to his sister's, and I went as well, and we

18 went to see her, went to her house. And we set off down this street from

19 Dobrinja. Then we went up -- as I said, the name of the street was then

20 the Olimpijska Street. That's the street that we went down, because it

21 was a cease-fire. There were some people around there, from where we were

22 going up to, and we were going from the main road. And at that moment I

23 felt that my hand just went up in the air. I thought it was some kind of

24 a cramp. I did not really feel pain.

25 It's then that I heard shots. And Dzemal took me by the hand. He

Page 2927

1 pulled me, and then we went down on the ground. There was some grass. I

2 think there were some potatoes. We went down on the ground and we waited

3 until the shooting stopped. We then got up, and I still was not aware

4 that I was wounded. And when I got up, I realised that my skirt was

5 covered in blood and that my arm as well. And I told Dzemal, "But I'm

6 wounded." And then they took me to Dobrinja, to the hospital, and there I

7 was admitted into the hospital by a doctor, Dr. Mahmic, who treated my

8 hand, et cetera.

9 Q. Mrs. Salcin, do you recall approximately what time it was when you

10 left your brother-in-law's sister's house on that day?

11 A. Well, at this moment I can't quite remember. Whether it was about

12 6.00, half past 7.00, I really don't know. I cannot remember. It was

13 some time ago.

14 Q. I understand that. Was it in the morning or the afternoon or the

15 evening?

16 A. In the afternoon.

17 Q. Do you remember what the weather was like that day?

18 A. It was raining. A little -- there was a little rain.

19 Q. Was it still light outside or had the sun set by that time?

20 A. There was still some daylight, a little.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that would be a convenient moment to

23 interrupt the questioning.

24 Mrs. Salcin, it has only been for a very short time. I hope that

25 you've experienced by now that you don't have to be nervous. We'll

Page 2928

1 continue next Monday, and then a lot of other questions will be put to

2 you. And I do understand that it's a very strange environment for you,

3 perhaps, to be in a courtroom, but, as I said, I hope you've experienced

4 that there's no reason to be nervous, and we continue next Monday.

5 Madam Registrar, I think we're continuing at 9.30, if I'm

6 correct.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 9.30 on Monday.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in this same courtroom, as far as I understand.

9 So we'll then adjourn until next Monday at 9.30.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of February,

13 2002, at 9.30 a.m.