Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3351

1 Monday, 11 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we continue with the examination of Witness M, I can

10 announce that I received the English and the French version of the

11 transcript of Tuesday, the 5th of February, page 3150 in English, and 3151

12 in French, where Mr. Piletta-Zanin has pointed out that on this last page,

13 the second, fourth, fifth -- no, second, third, fourth, and fifth line,

14 the French text is translated on page 3150, the last four lines, and there

15 seems to be some imprecision in the translation.

16 If I would say that details are not translated, I think it's not

17 strong enough. Part of what has been said is not properly translated. I

18 thank Mr. Piletta-Zanin for drawing our attention to it, especially since

19 this Chamber will usually rely on the English version of the transcript,

20 although we try to listen to the French text as well and, whenever

21 possible, read the French text if there's any reason for that. I thank

22 you very much for assisting the Chamber in this respect,

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 Is there anything else we have to discuss before we continue?

25 Then, please, would you bring in the witness, Mr. Usher.

Page 3352

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mrs. M. You can hear me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Good morning.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Good morning. I'm saying good morning to you.

5 I didn't say good morning yet to all the others in this courtroom, so good

6 morning to everyone now.

7 You are still bound, Mrs. M, you'll understand that, by the solemn

8 declaration you gave last week in the beginning of your testimony. And

9 the examination will now be continued by Mr. Mundis of the Prosecution.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

14 Q. Witness M, can you tell the Trial Chamber about the injuries your

15 son sustained while riding on the tram, please.

16 A. When my son was injured, I was not aware of the type of injury; I

17 just saw the blood. But a couple of minutes later, I realised that he had

18 injuries on both his legs -- lower legs -- on the internal -- inside of

19 the knee.

20 Q. Did you take your son for any type of medical treatment?

21 A. Yes, I did. I took him immediately. We call it the emergency

22 department, and that was closest for me, and that is where I took him.

23 Q. Did the medical staff there inform you as to the type of injuries

24 that your son sustained?

25 A. Not at first, but once they had cleaned the injury, they told me

Page 3353

1 what it was.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown the

3 document marked P3106.


5 Mr. Usher, would you please -- yes, yes, please proceed. Give the

6 document to the witness.


8 Q. Witness M, have you seen this document before?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. What is this document?

11 A. It is a certificate from the emergency clinic when my son was

12 admitted there for treatment of his injury.

13 Q. What is the date of this document?

14 A. The date is the 19th of June, 1994.

15 Q. Does that date refresh your memory as to the date that your son

16 was shot while riding on the tram?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. Witness M, does your son to this day suffer any long-term effects

19 from having been shot?

20 A. Even from before that, living through the aggression and the

21 shooting, he does have psychological problems.

22 Q. Witness M, can you tell the Trial Chamber about another shooting

23 incident that you witnessed from your apartment?

24 A. Yes, I can. I remember that incident very well. I happened to be

25 at the window because it was a quiet morning. It was about 10.00 in the

Page 3354

1 morning and, suddenly, shooting started, bursts of fire. Whether they

2 were bullets of a larger calibre or not, I don't know, because I don't

3 know much about weapons. In any event, they ricochetted from the asphalt,

4 and there was a group of people in the street. They were going

5 somewhere. They all laid down, and when the shooting stopped, a woman

6 stayed behind, lying on the ground in the street. Later, they took her

7 away in a car. However, the woman succumbed to her injuries, because

8 there was a big pool of blood left where she had been lying.

9 Q. Do you recall the approximate date when this incident occurred?

10 A. You mean which year or what time of year?

11 Q. If you know the year and/or the season of the year, or perhaps the

12 month of the year.

13 A. This was towards the end of the summer, and I think it was in

14 1993, towards the end of the summer, end of August, because it was still

15 warm; the weather was warm.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness M.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

18 time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine Mrs. M?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. M, questions will be put to you now by counsel

23 for the Defence.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3355

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. M, good morning.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Before we broke, you told us about an incident that occurred, as

5 you explained to us, in a tram. Could you please tell us, at which tram

6 stop did you get onto the tram?

7 A. At a tram stop called Skenderija.

8 Q. Can you tell us how many passengers there were in the tram?

9 A. It wasn't too full of people. I didn't count the passengers.

10 Most of the seats were taken, and there were a couple of people standing,

11 and I was in the front part of the tram.

12 Q. So you and your son were facing in the direction of the movement

13 of the tram, towards the east, towards Ilidza?

14 A. Yes. I'm not quite sure which side that is, but it is towards

15 Ilidza.

16 Q. Can you tell us when it was that you heard the shot, whether you

17 actually heard a shot? What exactly did you hear?

18 A. A shot was heard, but by then, there was already panic in the

19 tram. I clearly heard the shot.

20 Q. Just then, was the tram stationary or was it moving?

21 A. It was moving.

22 Q. Apart from your fear for your son, did you feel or see anything

23 particularly unusual in the tram?

24 A. Could you please explain your question a little?

25 Q. Well, you told us that you were frightened when you saw your son

Page 3356

1 bleeding, but was there any particular reaction on the part of the people

2 that were with you in the tram?

3 A. Everyone was scared.

4 Q. Did you feel any smell [as interpreted] in the tram?

5 A. The smell of gunpowder, shall I put it, burning, gunpowder.

6 Q. How much later could you smell the gunpowder? Could you tell us

7 that?

8 A. No. I'm really not able to say at what point I could smell the

9 gunpowder, because my child was injured, and I paid no attention to

10 anything else.

11 Q. Before that critical day, how frequently did you travel by tram

12 along the same route?

13 A. Rarely, because the trams were not working regularly.

14 Q. In relation to that particular event, when was the last time that

15 you had taken a tram before that? Was it a week or a month?

16 A. Maybe months, but I don't know. I mostly moved around on foot.

17 Q. In which part of town do you live?

18 A. In Novi Grad, Alipasino Polje.

19 Q. You said that there was a cease-fire just then?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us, how is it you know that there was a cease-fire?

22 A. I know because there was a public announcement to that effect. It

23 was announced over the media.

24 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to that event, how many days or weeks

25 prior to that event was it announced on the media that there was a

Page 3357

1 cease-fire?

2 A. I can't tell you that exactly, but not much before that. It

3 wasn't a long period of time that was involved. It was a short period of

4 time.

5 Q. So you were able to follow the media?

6 A. Yes, using batteries. We listened to the radio using batteries or

7 an accumulator.

8 Q. Could you tell us who signed that cease-fire as you heard about it

9 on the media?

10 A. I'm afraid that is a political matter. I suppose the authorised

11 people for that did that.

12 Q. Could you tell us who those people are? Do you remember?

13 A. No. I no longer remember the names.

14 Q. Let us go back to the event in the tram. You told us that you

15 went to the emergency clinic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before going to that emergency clinic, did you see the trace of

18 the bullet?

19 A. I didn't look. That didn't interest me. All I was concerned

20 about was reaching the clinic as soon as possible.

21 Q. During the examination-in-chief by my learned friend, you said

22 that the bullet came from the direction of Trebevic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us how is it you know that?

25 A. How I know that?

Page 3358

1 Q. Yes. On the basis of what are you telling us now that the bullet

2 came from Trebevic?

3 A. I don't see how else I could put it because from what other

4 direction could it have come but from Trebevic?

5 Q. In the period of 1993 -- you said that the armed conflict in

6 Sarajevo started in 1992. In the period of 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you

7 move around town?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Would you agree with me that you were listening to the media when

10 that was possible?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us whether, as you moved around town, you saw any

13 soldiers in town?

14 A. Not with weapons.

15 Q. When you say "not with weapons," what does a soldier mean for you

16 when you said you saw a soldier?

17 A. Everyone was wearing a uniform, so I couldn't say who was a

18 soldier and who was not, but I didn't see any carrying weapons.

19 Q. But did you learn from the media that in Sarajevo, the part of the

20 town that you lived, in Alipasino Polje, that there were troops known as

21 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that they were stationed in Sarajevo?

22 A. I know that there were troops, but they were not located in the

23 part of town in which I lived. They didn't have any institution of their

24 own there, nor a front line. They simply were not located there in the

25 part of town in which I live.

Page 3359

1 Q. Does that mean that you know that they were located somewhere

2 else?

3 A. On the front lines, on the separation lines.

4 Q. In relation to the place where you lived, in Alipasino Polje, or

5 more specifically, your building, in which direction was the separation

6 line in relation to your building?

7 A. It was not close by.

8 Q. When you say it wasn't close by, it means it was somewhere there?

9 A. Not somewhere there. Further away. It was not close to my place

10 of residence. The front line wasn't.

11 Q. Where was the closest front line in relation to your building?

12 A. About a couple of kilometres away.

13 Q. Could you tell us which part of town that is, or street, in

14 relation to your area?

15 A. The Stup neighbourhood. I know that there was a separation line

16 over there. Then Zabrdje, the neighbourhood of Zabrdje. That was what

17 was relatively close to where I lived.

18 Q. In that part of town, in the part of town in which you lived, were

19 there any armed operations, let's say in Stup and the part of town in

20 which you lived?

21 A. In the part of town in which I lived, you mean clashes between

22 warring parties or sniper fire?

23 Q. Yes, I mean clashes between warring parties.

24 A. In my part of town, no. I'm repeating that. Maybe further away.

25 Q. So you told us that the front line was a couple of kilometres away

Page 3360

1 from your house. When you say "a couple of kilometres," what exactly do

2 you mean?

3 A. Well, if I knew more exactly, I'd tell you. But a couple of

4 kilometres. The closest was less than 10 kilometres away.

5 Q. Do you know which military formation was at Stup?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If I tell you that Stup was under the control of the HVO, would

8 you agree with me?

9 A. I would be unable to say.

10 Q. You told us about this second incident, that there was shooting.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In relation to the building in which you live, can you tell us

13 from what direction the shooting came? Did you see that at all?

14 A. I saw the direction of the bullets hitting the street, which means

15 that they were coming from Trebevic.

16 Q. So you are telling us now that it is possible to see Trebevic from

17 where your building is?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us how many kilometres Trebevic is from your house?

20 A. As the crow flies, I don't know exactly.

21 Q. How far is it by road?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Let me tell you it's 40 kilometres from your building. Would you

24 agree with me? Maybe even 50.

25 A. No. I don't know.

Page 3361












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3362

1 Q. And what about as the crow flies? [Realtime transcript read in

2 error "A. Because the bullet flies directly through the air; it doesn't

3 follow the road."] Because the bullet flies directly through the air; it

4 doesn't follow the road. Can you tell us which part of Trebevic can you

5 see from your apartment?

6 A. I can't tell you which part of Trebevic.

7 Q. How many floors does your building have?

8 A. Eight.

9 Q. And which floor did you live on?

10 A. The eighth.

11 Q. When the shooting started, where were you?

12 A. In my room.

13 Q. Were you at the window, looking out, or were you sitting in your

14 room?

15 A. I was at the window, looking out, because I didn't expect any

16 shooting.

17 Q. You told us that just then a woman was killed on that occasion.

18 Can you tell us what the name of that woman is?

19 A. No. I'm unable to say.

20 Q. Can you tell us who you learnt about it from?

21 A. From the people who were there and who said that she was dead, who

22 later recounted the event.

23 Q. When you said "later recounted --"

24 A. I mean during the day, during that day.

25 Q. Are you aware that any of the people you talked to reported that

Page 3363

1 incident to the competent authority?

2 A. I don't know which competent authority. I hear that for the first

3 time, that one could report these things.

4 Q. Did any one of you go to the police and report the incident and

5 tell them about it?

6 A. No. I'm not aware that such incidents could be reported.

7 Q. Were any of the UNPROFOR officials on the spot, though they were

8 in Sarajevo at the time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. From the people you spoke to, did you learn where that woman

11 lived?

12 A. She also lived at Alipasino Polje.

13 Q. The incident that occurred when your son was injured, can you tell

14 us whether you or any of those present reported the incident to the

15 competent authorities? When I say "competent authorities," I mean the

16 police.

17 A. I didn't report anything.

18 Q. Are you aware of anyone else among the people who were with you in

19 the tram reporting the event?

20 A. No.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness, when

22 telling us about the incident in the tram and reporting the incident, told

23 us today that she didn't report the incident and that she doesn't know of

24 anyone else having done so, any of the other people present in the tram,

25 and with your permission, Your Honour, I will show the witness a statement

Page 3364

1 she gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on the 30th [as interpreted]

2 of November, 1995.

3 Q. Do you remember making that statement?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Can you tell us whether you signed that statement?

6 A. I did.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the benefit of my

8 learned friends and Your Honours, it is the statement of the 13th of

9 November, 1995, number -- in the B/C/S version, on page 1, paragraph 4.

10 With your permission, the witness [as interpreted] would like to show the

11 witness what she said in that statement with respect to reporting of that

12 incident which occurred on the day when, according to the testimony of

13 this witness, her son was injured.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please read it for the sake

15 of the transcript, because if the witness just reads it, we'll not know

16 exactly what she reads.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I

18 will read the fourth paragraph, which begins with the words, "On the third

19 stop..." "On the third stop, there were BH soldiers and UNPROFOR

20 soldiers. This was at Pofalici. At this time, I was pregnant."

21 Q. Mrs. M, did you make this statement?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Could you explain for us which soldiers of the BH army and

24 UNPROFOR were there, and how many of them were there?

25 A. I didn't say that there were BH soldiers. I said UNPROFOR

Page 3365

1 soldiers.

2 Q. Mrs. M, I've just read out what you said: "On the third stop,

3 there were soldiers of the BH and UNPROFOR. This was at Pofalici." You

4 said that that was what you stated. Could you tell us now which is the

5 truth; what you're telling us now or what you said in this statement?

6 When were you telling the truth; today, when you're telling us about the

7 incident, or when you were making this statement? Will you please tell us

8 which is correct.

9 A. I don't remember that there were BH soldiers together with

10 UNPROFOR soldiers.

11 Q. So you're saying that what you stated in this statement is not

12 correct?

13 A. I'm not claiming that it is not correct. I just don't remember

14 that there were BH soldiers.

15 Q. Are you telling us now that this is incorrectly noted down in this

16 statement which you signed?

17 A. No, I'm not saying anything.

18 Q. When you made this statement to the investigators, did you read

19 it?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Did you sign it?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Can you tell us today which is correct?

24 A. Probably that is more correct, because, after all, now it is the

25 year 2002, and that was in 1995.

Page 3366

1 Q. So what you're telling us is that your memory was fresher in 1995

2 of the event, regarding the event?

3 Now, can you tell us now how many BH soldiers there were?

4 A. If any, very few; two or three perhaps.

5 Q. Do you remember whether any of the soldiers of the BH army or

6 UNPROFOR talked to you?

7 A. No one talked to me. Immediately, with my husband's sister, went

8 to the emergency clinic. I did not stay, linger on there at Pofalici.

9 Q. Do you know whether the members of the BH army and the members of

10 UNPROFOR had inspected the tram and noted -- actually took statements from

11 other people in the tram?

12 A. They didn't take any statements from me. I didn't know what was

13 going on because I had left.

14 Q. So you don't know whether the other passengers in the tram talked

15 to the soldiers of the BH army or UNPROFOR?

16 A. I don't know about that because I left the premises.

17 Q. As you told us, the soldiers of the BH army were there. Since you

18 said that they were not wearing uniforms, on the basis of what did you

19 conclude that these were soldiers of the BH army?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please allow me to intervene

21 at this moment. My attention was drawn by one of my colleagues that there

22 might be a difference in the French and the English transcript, especially

23 in relation to this specific point. And I would have left it for a later

24 moment, but since it's part of your questioning now, as far as I see, the

25 French version says that no one was wearing a uniform, while the English

Page 3367

1 version says that everyone was wearing a uniform.

2 So Mrs. M, we have some problems. We do not understand your own

3 language, so we have to rely upon translations. And we see that we have

4 two different translations. A question was put to you in an earlier stage

5 whether you saw any military people; and then while answering and while

6 explaining, you said, according to the one translation, that everyone was

7 wearing a uniform and, in the other translation, it says that the no one

8 was wearing a uniform.

9 Could you please clarify this for us, which was the right

10 translation? It was when you said about no military people ever carrying

11 a weapon, and then the question was but how would you know that these were

12 military people? Did you say, "No one was wearing a uniform," or,

13 "Everyone was wearing a uniform"?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, most of them were not wearing

15 uniforms, especially at the beginning. No one had a uniform. Perhaps

16 some people that I don't know had uniforms. But the people I knew were

17 not wearing uniforms. In town, I couldn't see a male person wearing a

18 uniform, if you understand me well. As far as military persons are

19 concerned, if it were a patrol or something, they were wearing some kind

20 of uniform just to be recognised as a military person. Perhaps -- have I

21 managed to clarify this point?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's a clarification.

23 And it's also, Ms. Pilipovic, the basis of your question that I

24 would say people were not wearing uniforms is the correct one. But I had

25 to clarify it since there was this difference in the translation. Also,

Page 3368

1 for the transcript's sake, this is at -- in the provisional transcript at

2 page 8, line 16.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you would like to add something?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I wanted

5 to say that Ms. Pilipovic was about to ask the question and to clarify

6 this. We noted at 9.44.54, and this is what in fact was said. And this

7 is -- for the transcript, I think that the situation is now clear. So

8 this is the answer. 9.44.54, that was the answer that was given.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mrs. M, can you please describe how these people were dressed, the

13 people you say were members of the BH army.

14 A. I don't remember. Can you imagine that I was really not in a

15 situation to observe how people were being dressed.

16 Q. Would you agree that they had uniforms, because you said they were

17 soldiers?

18 A. Yes, I think they were wearing uniforms. I don't know if they

19 were military or any other kind of uniform. I can't remember that.

20 Q. When you spoke of that other incident, can you tell us, you

21 actually said that there was shooting in bursts?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you hear any other sounds besides the shooting?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Can you tell us how many people at that moment were at that point,

Page 3369

1 at that place?

2 A. About ten people.

3 Q. Observing them from the eighth floor, could you discern whether

4 they were men or both men and women?

5 A. Both; it was a mixed group.

6 Q. Were you able to see how those people were dressed, specifically

7 both in relation to the men and women?

8 A. Both were wearing civilian clothes.

9 Q. Could you say that some of those men was a soldier since you

10 talked with them in that afternoon, as you described to us?

11 A. I didn't speak to everyone. This person was an elderly person,

12 and he wasn't soldier. He told me that the woman was dead.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment to

14 consult with my colleague.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have concluded our

17 cross-examination of this witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 Mr. Mundis, any need to re-examine the witness?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Just one very brief line of questioning,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. Witness M, do you recall the approximate distance from the

25 location where the tram received the gunfire to the stop at Pofalici?

Page 3370

1 A. You mean in kilometres? Well, there were two stations, two stops

2 between these two. There were two stations. One was called Museum, and

3 the second one was the Marsal Tito barracks. So the tram didn't stop at

4 those two stops but stopped at Pofalici.

5 Q. Do you know approximately how many kilometres it is from where the

6 tram was hit by the gunfire to the Pofalici stop?

7 A. Well, I can't even say that even today. I could say 3, I could

8 say 6 kilometres. I don't know how many. This can be established from --

9 I just wanted to point out that we didn't stop from that place to

10 Pofalici. But as far as kilometres are concerned, I can say perhaps 4

11 kilometres. It may have been 3. I don't really know the exact number of

12 kilometres.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness M.

14 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

16 Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Looking at the medical report, it says that

19 the patient was injured with a dumdum bullet. The question is: The

20 doctors, or somebody, told you what is a dumdum bullet?

21 A. The doctor didn't tell me what it was, but I heard what a dumdum

22 bullet was and that it was prohibited, that its use was prohibited because

23 it had vast destructive power. This is what I found out about the dumdum

24 bullets. But the doctor at that time didn't tell me anything about it,

25 but those who saw my son's injury, they said that it was probably that

Page 3371












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3372

1 kind of a bullet involved, because his knees were full of small pieces of

2 gunpowder. And now he also, even today, has small spots below his knee

3 that are still visible even today.


5 JUDGE ORIE: I have not a specific question, but I'd like to ask a

6 clarification to Ms. Pilipovic. Ms. Pilipovic, just in order to avoid any

7 thorough misunderstanding, one of your questions was whether the tram was

8 heading to Ilidza in an easterly direction. Are we talking about another

9 incident or -- since what I learned from the incident now, everything

10 tells me that the tram was heading west. And the witness did not say it

11 was direction Ilidza. I don't know whether it's east or west. But it's

12 just in order to avoid any misunderstanding between the Defence and the

13 Bench.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the tram surely went

15 in the direction of Ilidza, that is, the west side, the west direction.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 Mrs. M, thank you very much for coming a very long way from

18 Sarajevo to The Hague. We are aware that it's quite a long way, and it's

19 not easy perhaps -- it might not have been easy for you either to -- being

20 confronted again with events in the past that certainly are of great

21 emotional meaning to you. You understand that this Court -- that it's

22 very important for this Court to hear the testimony of those who have been

23 present at the time when a lot of things have happened in Sarajevo, and

24 for the decisions for us to take, it's very important that people come and

25 testify in this Court. So thank you very much for having taken the effort

Page 3373

1 to come to The Hague. Thank you very much for answering all the questions

2 of the parties, of the Judges, and I wish you a good trip home.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness out of

5 the courtroom.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, we still have to take the

8 decisions on the admission into evidence of the documents tendered by the

9 parties. Could you please guide us.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheet will be P3652, under seal.

11 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I remember, we have admitted it already

12 into evidence right away, according to our -- what we usually do. Yes.

13 THE REGISTRAR: And the medical document, P3106 for B/C/S and

14 P3106.1 for English, both under seal.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. All the other documents

16 that have been used were already admitted into evidence when the first

17 witness on this incident has been testifying. Yes, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Although this is not the usual time to have a break,

21 the Chamber finds reasons to have the break a bit earlier, and then we'll

22 resume also at an earlier moment. That means 10 minutes to 11.00. So we

23 have now a half-hour break before the next witness will be called. So

24 we'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

Page 3374

1 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we resume, Mr. Ierace, I expect that Mr. Lesic

3 will be the next witness to be called. Before we ask him to be brought

4 into the courtroom, I'd just like to say a few words on something that

5 happened on the 6th of February at the end of the testimony of

6 Mrs. Taric. As you may remember, I then noticed for, I would say, one or

7 two seconds there was something on the screen which was not ordered to be

8 on the screen at that moment. And I urged that whoever was at the

9 technical booth not to show any images on any screen unless it has been

10 ordered by the Trial Chamber or has been agreed upon by the Trial Chamber,

11 that it was asked by one of the parties. I paid attention to it. I

12 thought that it was necessary to get the information from the technical

13 booth. I also found out it was made by mistake. I noticed that it cannot

14 be of any influence on the testimony of that witness because the testimony

15 had ended already when it happened.

16 As a result of my request to find out what happened exactly, you

17 may have seen that on the next day, the person who was moving the pictures

18 of the 360-degrees photographs was in the courtroom instead of in the

19 technical booth, which indicated clearly that it was done under the

20 responsibility of the Office of the Prosecutor. So that's the measure

21 that has been taken. Apart from that, I felt that I would be better in

22 control.

23 Finally, the reason why I'm telling it now is that this mistake

24 was done by -- at that moment, it was Mr. Lesic, as far as I know, who was

25 at the computer at that time. So just for the openness and for the sake

Page 3375

1 of clarity, I think it would be best to tell the parties about what I did

2 and what the result is.

3 So, then, Mr. Ierace, please call your next witness.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before I call Zoran Lesic, I

5 inform the Trial Chamber that I have spoken with the Defence, and I

6 understand there is no objection to Mr. Lesic's statement being tendered.

7 I will ask him a few additional questions to cover essentially the manner

8 in which the photographic images were transferred into an electronic form,

9 and ultimately into the 360-degree photographs. Mr. Lesic is fluent in

10 English as well as Bosnian, and I propose that he give his evidence in

11 English. Thank you.

12 I call Zoran Lesic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin first wants to make an

14 observation.

15 Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

17 for giving me the floor. But things are never quite as simple as

18 presented by the Prosecution. First of all, Mr. Lesic, if I understand,

19 is an assistant of the Prosecution, and this should be underlined.

20 Secondly, we do not accept as such that he be considered as a usual expert

21 because we have somebody who is a party. So how are we going to qualify

22 him? He is an assistant of the Prosecution. That is one point.

23 And secondly, this person, if he should be heard as a witness, I

24 don't quite know what his status will be. He assisted in the courtroom or

25 in the booth with regard to these 360-degree photographs. The reason why

Page 3376

1 we wish to hear Mr. Lesic is primarily to draw attention of the parties

2 and your Chamber to the very great difficulties that we have to manage

3 this kind of procedure. And proof of that is the incident you, yourself,

4 referred to, Mr. President, which happened spontaneously and which results

5 from the technical difficulties involved. And we feel it is dangerous to

6 use these photographs. They are useless and ineffective, and they can

7 cause confusion.

8 With respect to Mr. Lesic, we would like to know in what capacity

9 he will be heard. And the thesis of the Defence would be to reject all

10 the computerised 360-degrees photographs.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just ask you one question:

13 If you say he's not a usual witness, that's fine, but what should be the

14 consequence of not being a usual witness, in your view?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you said

16 yourself that this was a mixture of the Anglo-Saxon and continental

17 procedures. What I wish to say, that if we listen to him as a witness who

18 has taken an oath, he is a party paid by the Prosecution. So we are

19 dealing with an employee of the Prosecution, and consequently, according

20 to my legal tradition, and probably yours too, we are very suspicious of

21 this kind of situation, for obvious, objective reasons. That's all I

22 wanted to say.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... he is employed by

24 the Office of the Prosecutor that we have to be very cautious in our

25 judgement on what the probative value of his testimony may be. Thank

Page 3377

1 you.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me be clearer. It is all

3 the more serious because if his exhibits are unacceptable, he may find

4 himself being unemployed. So there is quite a serious problem there.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ierace, we are at the point where you could

6 call Mr. Lesic, your next witness.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes. I call Zoran Lesic. Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Lesic. You can hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We were informed by the Prosecutor's office that you

12 speak English fluently and that you therefore choose to testify in English

13 rather than in your native language. Is that true?

14 THE WITNESS: That's true.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then would you please first make the solemn

16 declaration the Rules require you to make, the text of which will be given

17 to you now by the usher.

18 THE WITNESS: Of course.


20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Lesic, please be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 3378

1 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

2 Q. Is your name Zoran Lesic?

3 A. Yes, my name is Zoran Lesic.

4 Q. On the 21st of November, 2001, did you make a statement to an

5 investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown that statement, which

8 is Exhibit P3653. I have a copy here at the bar table, together with

9 additional copies.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, Mr. Ierace, that you intend to

11 tender this document into evidence, and I also do understand that there's

12 no objection from the Defence side, of course, against the whole procedure

13 of the 360 degrees, but not against tendering this document into evidence.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: I'm grateful to the Defence, Mr. President.

16 Q. Do you recognise on the document in front of you your signature?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I think that appears on every page of the document. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. All right. Is what you said in the document before you, that is,

22 your statement, correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. And the truth?

25 A. Completely.

Page 3379

1 Q. All right. On page 1 -- I'm sorry. On page 2 of the statement,

2 you set out your experience. Have you done any tertiary study, that is,

3 study at university?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. At what institution was that?

6 A. It was university for drama. Original name is Fakultet Dramskih

7 Umijetnosti.

8 Q. In what city is that institution?

9 A. That was in Sarajevo.

10 Q. All right. When did you finish that course of study?

11 A. In 1967.

12 Q. All right. And did that --

13 A. Sorry. 1976.

14 Q. 1976.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Also on page 2 of your statement, you set out in

17 summary form the manner in which you took certain photographs. You say

18 that you took those photographs between the 9th of September, 2001 and the

19 2nd of October, 2001. Were there any photographs taken after the date of

20 the 2nd of October, 2001?

21 A. It was only one that, together with the investigator from ICTY,

22 Barry Hogan, I took on the 18th of December.

23 Q. All right. And --

24 A. Sorry; same year.

25 Q. All right. Does that also relate to one of the scheduled

Page 3380

1 incidents to the indictment?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. All right. Now, having taken the photographs and had the films

4 developed, did you load the photographic images electronically into a

5 computer?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did that involve scanning the photographs or the negatives or

8 both?

9 A. Scanning the negatives and positives.

10 Q. What type of equipment did you use for that scanning process?

11 A. We use a Nikon film scanner, and the name is Supercoolscan 4000.

12 Q. I take it you then needed some software.

13 MR. IERACE: I notice Mr. Piletta-Zanin is on his feet.


15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No Interpretation]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Using the same language, that's always

17 the problem.

18 Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, the words spoken by

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin were not translated. But --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked on behalf of the French

22 booth whether Mr. Ierace could slow down, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Now you got the message, Mr. Ierace. Thank you.


25 Q. Did you use some software in order to join the photographs

Page 3381












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3382

1 electronically?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is the name of that software?

4 A. We use a software called Ulidcool 360.

5 Q. When you joined the photographs so as to produce a 360-degree

6 image, did you alter in any way the content of the individual photographs?

7 A. No, we didn't. And that's also visible from some 360 images that

8 part of them are lighter, part of them are darker. And that's how

9 scanners scan them, and we didn't do any correction in anything.

10 Q. All right.

11 Now, in relation to incident 24, which I shall refer to as the

12 "tram incident," were you able to place the tripod over the spot earlier

13 indicated by the relevant witness?

14 A. No, because of traffic conditions. It was extremely busy day,

15 which is visible on the video. And local police didn't want to assist us

16 for stopping complete traffic to put the tripod in the same spot. In the

17 same time, it was working in that area, and we were forced to do that

18 three days later.

19 Q. Do you mean three days after the video was filmed?

20 A. Three days after video.

21 Q. On the video, one can see some yellow marks being made by the

22 investigator on the road surface. They do not appear on the 360-degree

23 photograph. Do you know why that is?

24 A. I think so. It was a construction works on the road the day when

25 we filmed the video, and it was a very heavy raining day after that.

Page 3383

1 Probably they cleaned the road when they repair the hole on the road.

2 Q. I'd like to ask you a question in relation to another incident in

3 respect of which there has already been some evidence. That's scheduled

4 sniping incident number 9 involving Vildana Kapur, who the Prosecution

5 alleges was shot and wounded in her left leg whilst transporting water.

6 Mr. Lesic, in relation to that incident, we have seen some

7 photographs taken of the witness Ifeta Sahic. Do you know who took those

8 photographs?

9 A. Just one question: You said number 9. Here on the list it is

10 number 8. I know what case you are talking about, but just to make

11 everything clear.

12 Q. All right. I'm asking you about incident number 9. That's the

13 amended schedule of sniping incidents. The Prosecution case is that three

14 young women were walking along a road, transporting some water, when there

15 was a burst of gunfire.

16 A. Yes, I know that case.

17 Q. All right. In that -- during the course of evidence in relation

18 to that incident, there have been some photographs tendered showing Ifeta

19 Sahic standing on a road. Do you know who took those photographs?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. I made those photographs on a mission

21 before.

22 Q. We have also seen some 360-degree photographs taken from that

23 area. One appears to have been taken from the road, and the other from a

24 grassy area to the side of the road. Did you take those images?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3384

1 Q. Approximately how long before you took those 360-degree

2 photographs did you take the photographs of Ifeta Sahic standing on the

3 road, approximately?

4 A. Approximately a year ago.

5 Q. All right. Now, looking at your statement, at the bottom of page

6 2, have you produced some details from your log book?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are these the same details, that is, the details in bold, except

9 for the first entry, being the date of the alleged incident, which appear

10 at the beginning of each video clip?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. By way of explanation, referring to incident number 1, the first

13 detail which appears on the video is "17 September 2001 - 09h [TH 180cm]."

14 What does the date refer to, 17 September 2001?

15 A. That's the date when we met the witness and when we made the video

16 and photography.

17 Q. "09h"?

18 A. That's the time.

19 Q. "[TH 180cm]"?

20 A. That's the height of the photo camera.

21 Q. You mean height from ground level?

22 A. Height from ground level.

23 Q. To what part of the camera?

24 A. The lens.

25 Q. All right. Next line is "GPS*T34 - 0290137 - 4859181." What does

Page 3385

1 that refer to?

2 A. That is a GPS reading done by investigator on that moment, showing

3 exact position according to GPS reader.

4 Q. And was that reading filmed through the videocamera?

5 A. Yes. The GPS reader was shown to camera, and camera was basically

6 filming also the same details which are written here in the log book.

7 Q. Going over the page, the next line reads "Compas*E611m/S174."

8 What does that refer to?

9 A. That is direction of videocamera. The videocamera was point in

10 that direction, and that was also filmed on the videotape.

11 Q. On some of the footage we have seen so far, there appears to be

12 two videocameras recording at the same time. Does the compass reading

13 relate to the videocamera before which the compass reading is held up to

14 the lens?

15 A. Yes. The first reading is for the first camera, and the second

16 reading is for a second camera.

17 Q. All right. Now, in relation to the next line, which reads "CAM1

18 tape 3 - 0:32:48" followed by an arrow, "0:37:32," what does that refer

19 to?

20 A. That's a reading of time code from the videocameras. The first

21 one is camera 1. That was tape 3 of that camera. And the beginning of

22 that filming was on 0 hours, 32 minutes, 48 seconds. And it stopped on 0

23 hours, 37 minutes, and 32 seconds.

24 Q. Would you please slow down your answer, especially when you're

25 quoting figures.

Page 3386

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Having regard to your answer, I take it the second part of that

3 line provides the same relevant details for the second camera; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. All right. The next line reads, "film ERN 0211-9720." I take it

7 that is the ERN number that was ascribed to a film.

8 A. That is correct. That is ERN number described [sic] for a photo

9 film.

10 Q. That's the photo film from which the 360-degree view was produced;

11 is that the case?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. All right. Now, when you edited the video film, we have noticed

14 some gaps and breaks. Firstly, as you've pointed out, there were two

15 cameras used for some incidents. Are those gaps partly explained by,

16 during the editing process, you switching from the film of one camera to

17 the film of the other camera?

18 A. No. The gaps that appear are GPS readings mainly, or naming the

19 persons present, or from time to time we were shooting on location which

20 was very noisy, like traffic control, and if there was like a couple of

21 seconds, minutes, of hard noise of, let's say, truck passing by, we will

22 stop filming -- we will film, but we will not show that in the courtroom.

23 Q. But did you also switch from the film of one camera to the film of

24 the other camera --

25 A. Yes.

Page 3387

1 Q. -- in the final -- please wait for the question -- in the final

2 presentation?

3 A. Yes. We switched from one camera to other camera.

4 Q. All right. Now, when you prepared the electronic photographs, on

5 what did you mount them; in other words, on a computer hard drive, a

6 separate hard drive, a CD, a DVD, or a videotape, or what?

7 A. After finishing on the hard drive, we will export everything on

8 the CD.

9 Q. All right. When you say, "We will export everything on the CD,"

10 has that been done?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions in

13 chief.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank

16 you. May I proceed? Thank you.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, thank you for coming to explain to us what

19 you know in this courtroom. I should like to go back to the document

20 submitted by the Prosecution, which has now been prenumbered 2130748, and

21 that is your written statement dated the 21st of November, 2001. You have

22 confirmed signing this document, and it is on that basis that I have a few

23 questions for you now.

24 On page 2, you have indicated in your brief C.V. having worked in

25 Sarajevo. Could you tell us, sir, during which period of time exactly you

Page 3388

1 first studied and then worked in Sarajevo.

2 A. Yes. I was studying from 1972 until 1976, and from that moment I

3 joined a chamber theatre, or Kamerni Teatar Pedesetpet, in Sarajevo, and I

4 was working in that theatre until end of February 1993.

5 Q. Sir, if I understood you correctly, you lived for some 20 years in

6 Sarajevo, or, to be quite precise, for 17 years. Is that correct?

7 A. No. I was living even longer than that.

8 Q. Then that is my question. For how long did you live in Sarajevo,

9 maybe studying before the university? Generally speaking, how long did

10 you live in Sarajevo for?

11 A. My family arrived to Sarajevo in '68, 1968.

12 Q. So for some 25 years, you continuously lived in Sarajevo; is that

13 correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, you perhaps had the

16 opportunity to do your military service in Sarajevo; is that right?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During those 25 years, you met a certain number of people. Among

19 your circle of friends or acquaintances, did you know people who were

20 militarily active in Sarajevo during the period we're interested in, that

21 is, May 1992 until the end of 1994?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, you lived in Sarajevo for 25 years. Did you also have

24 among your circle people who, unfortunately, disappeared in Sarajevo

25 during the period that I have just mentioned?

Page 3389

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, among those people who went

3 missing, were there people who disappeared as a result of violent death?

4 A. Yes. It was war.

5 Q. Yes, we know that. Thank you for your answer. Were there people

6 who you knew who died not only as a result of violent death but

7 during -- as a result of a shot or as a result of combat?

8 A. Yes. Sorry.

9 Q. Thank you for your answer. I understand your difficulty.

10 Did you have close friends who disappeared under those

11 circumstances in Sarajevo or the surroundings of Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answers, which are clear, and I think

14 important. On the first page of your statement, you indicated, with

15 regard to your ethnicity - I think that's what we can call it - that your

16 ethnic origin is Bosniak. Is that correct? I'm referring to page 1, the

17 cover page of your statement which has just been shown to you and the last

18 numbers of which are 748.

19 A. Yes, that's true. It's my ethnic origin.

20 Q. However, if I look at your place of birth, I see Zrenjanin FRY,

21 which means the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. So this is Vojvodina, is

22 it not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So when you say that your ethnic origin is Bosniak, that means

25 that part of your family are of Bosniak ethnicity?

Page 3390

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During these discussions, we have seen that there are several

3 ethnicities in Bosnia. Could you specify, please, if possible, which

4 member of your family belongs to the Bosniak ethnicity.

5 A. Yes. My mother, she is a Bosnian Serb, and my father was a Croat.

6 Q. A Croat from Croatia or a Croat from Bosnia?

7 A. Bosnian Croat.

8 Q. Thank you. I come back now to the technical problems. You

9 mentioned GPS. I think you're referring to the global positioning system;

10 is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. Thank you. Generally speaking, this system, as far as I

13 understand, functions thanks to the assistance of a satellite; is that

14 correct? What information can you give us regarding the GPS used, number

15 1; and number 2, the satellite on the basis of which it operated?

16 A. As I know, it was a GPS reader Garmin, which is official ICTY GPS

17 reader, and I don't know exactly what satellite was used, how many

18 satellite was located in that moment. GPS was operated by ICTY

19 investigator.

20 Q. Witness, do you know whether the satellite used was a civilian or

21 a military one?

22 A. I really don't know.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, I come now to the elaboration of this

24 circular system. If I understood correctly, you have a tripod, a camera,

25 an apparatus for taking photographs which has 20 positions, each time the

Page 3391












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3392

1 axis being moved by 18 degrees. Is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer. Was the system entirely automatic?

4 A. The system is not completely automatic. There is no machine

5 driving a photo camera. On the top of the tripod there is special head.

6 On that head there is 20 holes which are 20 different angles. So each

7 movement of that photo head is exact same. It's exactly ten degrees.

8 Sorry. Eighteen, twenty. It's basically -- yes, it's 20, yes.

9 Q. I think it would be 18 degrees, to be quite precise,

10 mathematically, so -- is that right? Eighteen degrees. Because 20 times

11 20 gives us 400, but 20 times 18 is 360. Thank you. Yes. But the system

12 is not automated, so it is you yourself who has to manipulate each time

13 the position of the camera; is that right?

14 A. That's true. And each time when I am moving the camera, it is

15 moving exactly same angle.

16 Q. Very well. Could you tell this Chamber the average time needed to

17 make these 20 changes of angles?

18 A. Between 2 minutes and 10 minutes.

19 Q. Witness, when you change each time the angle or the axis of the

20 shot, you sometimes had to regulate the focus as well as the lighting.

21 And is this regulation done automatically?

22 A. The lens was set on manual. First stop was usually 11, which will

23 create a very deep field. And basically, it was operated with the remote

24 control.

25 Q. Thank you. Another question had to do with this field. Is it

Page 3393

1 correct, Witness, that for the long distance planes, although the angle is

2 always identical, that the fields may differ, depending on the distance of

3 the object being visualised and filmed?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Witness, as a result of that, do we have the overlapping of

6 photographs and of the images? Witness, who is going to choose the part

7 of the photograph which will be retained to compose the circular image?

8 Who does that?

9 A. The decision is done by computer, because programme is created in

10 such way that from each negative is taking only middle part from a

11 negative, and the left and right part will be overlapped with the next

12 image.

13 If I can explain, Your Honour, it looks like this: This is

14 negative. Here is the centre part of image. Next image is coming like

15 this to that one. I will not fold this. I will just leave it like this.

16 And then it will come like this. The next one is coming in the absolutely

17 same way.

18 Q. You told us that the image that we finally see in realtime may

19 have lasted about 10 minutes, which is the time necessary to make the full

20 circle. I think that is what I gathered from your statement a moment

21 ago. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's true.

23 Q. Would you agree with me, Witness, that we are showing in a static

24 form something which, in time, may have lasted relatively a long time,

25 several minutes?

Page 3394

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why not?

3 A. The time difference between first and last shot is only because we

4 didn't want to have, for example, one car waiting for a street light,

5 which is red, and then the last one, which is in the same spot, a blue.

6 What we did in 10 minutes, we will wait until the conditions are like that

7 that nothing is on the image which can be changed. Then quickly, we will

8 make the whole rotation. So it means that waiting was basically to avoid

9 any two different cars or two different pedestrians on the same shot.

10 Q. Yes. But my question referred to mobile objects. Because this

11 photograph, using necessarily an "X" amount of time, mobile objects

12 theoretically may be seen two or three times on the same static image. Is

13 that correct, theoretically? In theory?

14 A. No, because we are waiting them to leave.

15 Q. Yes, yes. I understand that. But in theory, if you were not

16 careful, then theoretically we could have several times the same mobile

17 object on a single photograph shown to us as an instant image?

18 A. Yes, theoretically.

19 Q. Are you quite certain of having redacted all type of animated

20 object from this type of photograph?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you for the clarity of your answer. Thank you very much.

23 Witness, I now come to another aspect of this technique. We

24 received in connection with your statement a certain number of photo

25 images. I'm showing them to you from a distance. Can you recognise them

Page 3395

1 as being those coming from your office, shall I call them? Shall I call

2 them that?

3 A. Show me. Yes, from this distance, I think it's from us.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just for the clarity of the record, from a

5 distance, Defence counsel shows two or more pieces of paper which, from a

6 distance, seems to contain small photographic pictures of something.

7 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of accuracy, I would

9 be grateful if the witness had an opportunity to view those contact prints

10 much closer.


12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the problem is we can't just read a few lines

13 of these pictures, so we can't use our normal technique; that is, to read

14 to the witness exactly what is on these pieces of paper. So let me be

15 clear: If it's just to say is this the kind of document you used or you

16 had in your office, that's fine. If it comes any more precise, you have

17 to either tender them into evidence or have them marked for

18 identification.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I simply wanted

20 to place them on the ELMO, and we -- first, I wanted to make sure that

21 this was the type of print shown by the witness. Now I can have them

22 placed on the ELMO.

23 The exhibit has a number, handwritten 20, and another series of

24 number; 0106-1217.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if the witness recognises these as

Page 3396

1 the -- as you call it "planche," do you intend to tender them into

2 evidence? Do you have copies for the Bench and --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The problem is,

4 Mr. President --

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... I mean I do

6 understand that, of course, it's not easy to prepare for the

7 cross-examination. Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The problem is when we copy

9 this, it is highly illegible. It's only a technical problem.

10 Q. Now, are we discussing prints that you, yourself, have made with

11 your camera?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, is it the type of print that were used for making photos

14 at 360 degrees?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Can you tell us what kind of other prints were used -- I will

17 provide another one to make things clearer.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you take

19 this print, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to be sure the Prosecution knows what

21 these documents -- would you then, please, Mr. Usher, first -- the other

22 one, at least show it to the Prosecution, and then give it to the Bench so

23 that we have a better view.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I had no warning of this.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you think we can proceed meanwhile, Mr. Ierace?

Page 3397

1 MR. IERACE: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The other one can then -- oh, yes.

3 Would you please put that on the ELMO, Mr. Usher. And please give

4 the original, which is in the hands of the Prosecution now, to the Bench

5 so that finally we also can have an idea of what it's all about.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. This compact [as interpreted] print, is it the kind that is used

10 for making such photos?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Witness, could you tell us how many photos we have that appear on

13 the print that you have on the screen? I think that they have been

14 numbered.

15 A. 26.

16 Q. Witness, I thought that you had said that you made a rotation, 20

17 times 18, and that we should have only 20 pauses. How can you explain

18 that difference, that gap?

19 A. As you can see, there is a 21 shot, which is a horizontal, and the

20 rest is vertical. Basically -- sorry, it was 21 vertical and 5 horizontal

21 shots. And the first one and the number 21 is completely the same. So it

22 makes from 1 to 20 is panoramic.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we put another document,

24 211, 89. Could you put it on the screen, please.

25 MR. IERACE: In the meantime, Mr. President, might I have access

Page 3398

1 to the photograph which is presently on the ELMO?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it has been shown to you already. And

3 after that, the Bench is also very much interested to see it.

4 Could you please, Mr. Usher, put the other one on the ELMO. While

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin proceeds, the Bench could also see that one.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Witness, here we have a number of photos that are either

8 horizontal or vertical, whichever way you look at it. How many pauses are

9 there on the print?

10 A. [Previous translation continues]...

11 Q. Thank you.

12 [No Interpretation]

13 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't translate that.

14 A. If you start looking them from number 1 to number 20, you will see

15 that it's one continuation, that it's one full movement of 360.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that question was not translated.

18 Perhaps my friend could repeat the question so it could be translated.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please translate -- could you repeat

20 the question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I do hear it in French, so I didn't

21 notice.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.

23 Q. Witness, you indicated there were 28 shots on the print, and I

24 asked you how come we had 28 when we know that 20 are enough for a full

25 rotation? And your answer was, could you please repeat it.

Page 3399

1 A. Yes. The shots from number 1 to 20, that's from a same rotation.

2 Q. The photos that you were going to use were, in fact -- later on,

3 were they selected, chosen?

4 A. No. It's from one full rotation.

5 Q. Here we have 28 photos that form a single rotation; is that

6 correct?

7 A. No. There is 20 photos shot, from number 1 to 20. It's one full

8 rotation. And as I can see, you can follow that step by step. The rest

9 is just test.

10 Q. But if these are tests, then these were tests that were made

11 subsequently, after the shooting, because you start from 1 to 20. So

12 these are something that occurred later on.

13 I would like to go back to your statement. I only have a few

14 questions left. Could you please take your written statement. Could

15 you --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... first

17 this -- these photos be shown to the Prosecution, then later to the Bench,

18 and if at the same time you would take your written statement in front of

19 you. Or you're just referring to it?

20 Is the written statement in front of the witness? Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think the witness will be

22 more comfortable in this way. May I proceed, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall proceed.

25 Q. Witness, on page 2 of your statement, you say that the photos that

Page 3400

1 served for these circular images were all taken in your photo log, in your

2 logbook. This is how you call it. Is this something that has been

3 confirmed? Your album.

4 A. In my photo and video logbook is not written each single shot;

5 only ERN of film which is a part of that incident.

6 Q. When did you compile that notebook, that logbook, Witness?

7 A. During the mission in Sarajevo.

8 Q. So what we can see here on page 2 and 3 is what you established

9 during your mission in Sarajevo; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. As it appears in your photo logbook?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Witness, now to refer to a period -- I think it was September or

14 October 2001; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. It is only for you to formulate your replies. I will

17 wait. At the time, did you know the number ERN, which means electronic

18 reference number, as far as I know?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Witness, you have just mentioned that those elements reflect

21 exactly what is contained in your logbook, but these elements always

22 mention the designation "ERN." We can see that about 26 times, more or

23 less. How come that you were aware of this designation "ERN"? Because

24 you have stated yourself that you haven't done it.

25 A. [Previous translation continues]... year and number in Sarajevo.

Page 3401












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3402

1 What was in my logbook was information like this: 17 September 2001, and

2 then time, and then GPS reading, compass and camera tape. ERN number I

3 add later when we arrive here, when film was developed, and then it was a

4 link for myself between certain film and incident.

5 Q. All right. Now we have understood this well. But this was a

6 result of the form of your written statement and how it was noted down.

7 For all the points under consideration, you indicated that it was this and

8 that person wounded at a certain place, accompanied by this and that

9 person, at a specific date. Were you an eyewitness to all of those

10 incidents?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So to make things perfectly clear: In your statement, when you

13 mention this and that incident on that date, involving those persons, it

14 is something that you learned about not by yourself but by other means?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. To make things perfectly clear, the source of that information was

17 exactly what?

18 A. That is from indictment.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I consult just a moment,

20 Your Honour?

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And very last question: The indictment, who was it submitted to

24 you by?

25 A. I received that from investigator.

Page 3403

1 Q. In other words, the services of the Prosecution?

2 A. A member of OTP, so I received that before I leave to mission.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

4 Mr. President. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Ierace?

8 MR. IERACE: I'll probably be brief, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I intend to do, as a matter of fact, is to

10 have a short second break, which we usually have not during the short

11 morning sessions, but just to give at least some rest. And so perhaps we

12 will finish with the witness, have then a short break, and then continue

13 until 1.00. So please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I have access to document

15 21189. I think that's one of the contact sheets. It's the last sheet

16 handed out, with the 28 negatives.

17 JUDGE ORIE: With a lot of blue on it?

18 MR. IERACE: That appears to be the one I want, yes. Yes, it is.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It has the number 1 -- 0211 and then 8 -- 9750, as

20 far as I can see. That's the one.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I took that number from

22 the transcript. Thank you.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

24 Q. Mr. Lesic, the sheet in front of you, does that have a particular

25 name in your trade, that type of sheet?

Page 3404

1 A. Yes. That's a contact print.

2 Q. What is a contact print?

3 A. Contact print is exact print of whole film.

4 Q. All right. Now, do you remember how many exposures you could have

5 made from the film which produced those negatives, in other words, the

6 maximum number you could have made?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that's true,

9 but I did what you asked me to do, that is, to find this computer

10 evidence, and I have many things. I have some virgin forests. I don't

11 know whether we are seeing the same picture. It's very charming, I must

12 say, but --

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I am quite sure you have the same as we have.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... on your screen on

17 the other image.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it's not functioning,

19 Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... clarify that.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, it's working now. It's

22 working now.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... work any more, as

24 far as I'm concerned. Yes, please proceed. Everything is fine now.


Page 3405

1 Q. Yes. What were the maximum number of exposures you could have

2 made from that film?

3 A. Thirty-six.

4 Q. Why is it that we only see 28 prints?

5 A. I made one full rotation, and then, just for the sake of being

6 completely sure that everything is completely done, I will make a couple

7 of extra shots.

8 Q. But my point is that there are 28 exposures there on the contact

9 print. Did you make 36 exposures or 28?

10 A. No. Twenty-eight.

11 Q. All right. On some of the other contact prints that you have been

12 shown this morning, I think there were 26 exposures. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Does the same apply in relation to them? In other words, you only

15 took 26 exposures on that film, which had a maximum potential of 36?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. All right. Now, alongside each of the colour photographs, do we

18 see a number on the margin of the film itself?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Does number 1 indicate the beginning of the film?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, in relation to that particular contact print in front of you,

23 I think you just said that you used the first 20. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Now, during your testimony, you were asked some

Page 3406

1 questions about the settings on the camera, that is, the film camera, when

2 you took the photographs which were later used for the 360-degree view.

3 According to the transcript, you said the first stop was usually 11.

4 A. F stop.

5 Q. Is that sometimes known in photographic circles as the F-stop?

6 A. F-stop, or the F opening.

7 Q. Does that indicate the aperture of the lens?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. All right. Now, you said that you set the camera manually when

10 you took those photographs. You then went on to say that the F-stop was

11 usually 11. What about the focus of the camera? Was that done manually

12 by you or was it done automatically by the camera, or what?

13 A. No. It was manually by me, and it was always on the sharpest

14 point, which is infinity.

15 Q. Now, at one stage Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked you a question, during

16 which he said, according to the English translation, "The fields may

17 differ depending on the distance of the object being visualised and

18 filmed." Are you familiar with the term "the depth of field"?

19 A. Absolutely.

20 Q. And does the depth of field indicate the range which is in focus?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Having -- I withdraw that. Is the depth of field related to the

23 aperture?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Since you manually set the aperture, would you expect any change

Page 3407

1 in the depth of field as the camera was rotated 360 degrees?

2 A. No. With the number 11, that field will be from half a metre up

3 to infinity.

4 Q. Just to be clear on that, you wouldn't expect any change in that

5 with the manual settings; is that the case?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

9 Any questions from --

10 I've got one question for you. It's the following.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE ORIE: You have indicated that some numbers -- and I'm

13 specifically referring to the first line of the third page of your

14 statement. It says "Compas," and then an asterisk, E611m/S174. Could you

15 please explain, since I sometimes find a small "m" and sometimes I do not

16 find a small "m" in the first part of the compass numbering, what exactly

17 this means. So after the asterisk.

18 A. I think it's a typing mistake.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What's the mistake?

20 A. Letter "m."

21 JUDGE ORIE: I find it several times. For example, I find it on

22 this same page, I find it on the first entry, on the third entry, on the

23 fifth entry. It's not always there. It's sometimes there. But later on,

24 it's not there any more. But could you then explain, even if the "m"

25 doesn't mean anything and there's a typing mistake, what is the first

Page 3408

1 number?

2 A. The first number, meaning compass, is east 611, which is a

3 position of camera. The letter "m" after that is just my typing mistake,

4 because I was on a field copying the data, probably I copied the same one

5 couple of times.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And what is 611?

7 A. 611, it's position on GPS reading, showing basically the angle

8 which was the camera pointed. 611 is basically east. 600, as I

9 understand, is east. So that's the number that appear on GPS which we

10 filmed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And then the second number after the slash?

12 A. The second one is a second camera. Because on that case, we were

13 working with two cameras. So the first number is always related to first

14 camera and second number is related to second camera.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do notice, but I don't know whether there's

16 any relation that south and the number 174, which is quite close to 180,

17 which in a 360-degree system might be south if you start 0 at north. Then

18 it seems that the second part of the compass, for example, the second

19 entrance is S183, which as far as I try to understand might be south

20 approximately 180 degrees, just like southeast on the third with the

21 number 137 might be quite close to what I understand on a compass is

22 southeast.

23 So I can follow the second entry always. Well, most of it is

24 south or southeast. But for example, on the 12th entrance on page 4, I

25 find NW322, that's -- looks quite similar to northwest, which I can

Page 3409

1 understand in relation to the number 322. But is the second number, which

2 never is above 360, is that a different system from the first camera which

3 you say GPS 600 is --

4 A. No, we use the same GPS reader for everything.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That surprises me. So you have no explanation why

6 the first number very often is above 360, while the second is quite

7 understandable for me in what I used as a compass when I was a small boy.

8 You have no explanation, no specific explanation, about the higher numbers

9 prior to the slash?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That was my question.

12 I don't think that this ends your examination as a witness,

13 Mr. Lesic.

14 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I ask just one question arising

16 out of those questions, one further question of the witness?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

18 Further examined by Mr. Ierace:

19 Q. Did you play any role in the operating of the GPS, or simply

20 ensure that the reading which appeared on it appeared on the videofilm?

21 A. No, I didn't have any influence on that.

22 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

24 Mr. Lesic, this concludes your examination both by the parties and

25 by the Bench, but usually we do the tendering into evidence after the

Page 3410

1 witness has left. I would like to do it now in a different way. First of

2 all, I'd like to have the sheet that's still on the ELMO. Because I want

3 to be quite sure that there's no mistake.

4 Madam Registrar, as far as I can see, P3653 and 3653.1 is the

5 English and the B/C/S version of the previous statement of Mr. Lesic.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's admitted into evidence. And then I have to be

8 very precise on the -- I'll give you the sheets in the order I think is

9 the correct order. Madam Registrar, I think this would be the correct

10 order.

11 The first document is, as far as I can see, the document with the

12 number 0106-1217 on it. And that would then be Defence exhibit?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 39, D39.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's the sheet with pictures especially of trams on

15 it.

16 You do agree, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since we have to be very

17 precise.

18 The second is a sheet with number 0211 and then 9748. That would

19 then be Defence exhibit.


21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And D40 distinguishes itself from D41, being

22 D40 mainly of a greyish colour; D41 having a lot of blue colours in it.

23 And that would be a sheet which bears the number 0211-9750.


25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

Page 3411












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3412

1 I suggest that since we had our first break rather early, that

2 we'll have a really short break. Would it be enough for both the

3 translators and the technical booths to have a break until 25 minutes past

4 12.00? That would be approximately 12 minutes, then to continue for

5 another 35 minutes to 1.00?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be acceptable?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I see. Thank you very much.

10 We'll then have a break until 25 minutes past 12.00.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 --- Break taken at 12.13 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next

15 witness, I'd just like to make a short remark about the transcript of

16 today, on page 10, lines 24 and 25, which gives a wrong statement of what

17 was the question and what was the answer. The time is 9 hours, 54

18 minutes, 21 seconds. The question is: "And what about as the crow

19 flies?" And then it's indicated that the answer would be: "Because the

20 bullet flies ..." But this line contains the continued question, where it

21 then continues, at page 11, third line, time 9 hours 40 -- 54 minutes, 33

22 seconds: "Can you tell us which part of Trebevic can you see from your

23 apartment?" That's the last part of that question.

24 Mr. Ierace, when I look at your last schedule -- let me just try

25 to find it. Your next witness will be -- I got it this morning. I lost

Page 3413

1 it for a second, I'm afraid. No, I've got it here. Would that be a

2 witness which formerly would have had a pseudonym but has now decided to

3 testify under her own name?

4 MR. IERACE: That's correct, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So please call your next witness.

6 Mr. Usher --

7 MR. IERACE: I call Sadija Sahinovic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The usher is getting her. Yes, that's fine.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Sahinovic, can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Also in a language which you understand?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give your testimony in this Court, the

15 Rules require you to make a solemn declaration, and the text of this

16 declaration will be given to you now by the usher. Would you please make

17 that declaration.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mrs. Sahinovic. Please be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in this courtroom.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 3414

1 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by counsel for the

2 Prosecution, and then, once finished, you will be examined by the counsel

3 for the Defence.

4 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

7 Q. For the record, is your name Sadija Sahinovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whereabouts in Sarajevo were you living in early 1992?

12 A. In early 1992, I was living at Grbavica with my husband and

13 children.

14 Q. After the outbreak of the armed conflict, at some point did you

15 move to Dobrinja?

16 A. Yes. Because I was expelled from Grbavica, I went to Dobrinja,

17 and I lived at Dobrinja for three years.

18 Q. During the conflict, whilst you lived at Dobrinja, did you have

19 running water where you lived?

20 A. Very little of it. Sometimes they would bring drinking water in

21 trucks, and we used water, for bathing, from the river, or rainwater.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I'm sorry

24 for interrupting, but I think I have to do that. Because in the written

25 statement of the witness, we see that the date of birth is the 29th of

Page 3415

1 January, 1996. Could we specify her year of birth. I don't think it can

2 be the 29th of January, 1996.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I leave apart at this moment whether this

4 had been something to be clarified during cross-examination, but perhaps

5 it's an issue which, if you would, please proceed, Mr. Ierace. 1996,

6 there's no doubt about that, must be a mistake. We'll have this

7 clarified.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I don't think it's relevant to

9 this witness as to her date of birth, but I understand it was corrected in

10 the B/C/S version.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. And give us later, then, the

12 exact date.


14 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, were you living with your family in Dobrinja?

15 A. I was.

16 Q. Was that your husband and two children?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You mentioned that you would get water from the river for

19 bathing. What is the name of the river?

20 A. The river is called Dobrinja. It flowed through Dobrinja, right

21 next to the building I was living in. And we had no other waters, so we

22 used it for washing ourselves and clothes.

23 Q. How often would you personally collect water from the river?

24 A. Well, let me tell you, it depended on the situation. Sometimes I

25 went three or four times. Sometimes five to six times. If I had the

Page 3416

1 washing to do, I went many times. But at least three or four times.

2 Q. What types of containers would you use?

3 A. We had some large buckets and containers to use to get the water

4 out of the river, because we couldn't spend much time there as it was very

5 dangerous.

6 Q. In what way was it dangerous?

7 A. Well, let me tell you, because there was a sniper there who had a

8 good view of the whole river. And he would shoot sometimes all day long,

9 and many, many people got wounded and got killed at the river.

10 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Munira Zametica?

11 A. I did know Munira Zametica. I met her after I was expelled from

12 Grbavica, so we knew one another until the woman was killed in 1993.

13 Q. Did she also live in Dobrinja in 1993?

14 A. Yes, Munira first lived across the road from the airport. She had

15 a house there. Then she fled from Serb soldiers, and she lived in

16 Dobrinja, and that is where we met.

17 Q. Did she live with any members of her family?

18 A. Yes. Munira had a husband and two children, and they are still

19 alive, a daughter, a son, and her husband.

20 Q. What is the daughter's name?

21 A. Her daughter's name is Vahida. She has also come here.

22 Q. On what date was she killed?

23 A. She was killed on the 11th of July, 1993, about 2.00 or 3.00 in

24 the afternoon.

25 Q. Were you with her at that time?

Page 3417

1 A. I was. Because we were very close, and I was with her.

2 Q. At the time that she was killed, what were you and she doing?

3 A. We were on our way to get some water, and night was about to fall,

4 and the river was exposed to sniper fire. And we set out, and we had

5 already reached the river, next to the containers. And there were about

6 six or seven persons there already, crouching. They didn't dare move

7 forward to collect the water. The two of us got there, and we waited in

8 the group. And we were discussing the best way to get hold of the water.

9 And we waited for about 5 or 10 minutes. No one dared approach the

10 river.

11 After 5 or 10 minutes, a neighbour from our building, of Serb

12 ethnicity, reached the water, and she filled her bucket and went home.

13 And there was no shooting. Then another 5 minutes passed. And then a

14 man, another neighbour, whom I didn't know - they were all civilians - he

15 collected some water and he left, too. We were still waiting there,

16 thinking who would go first, and no one dared.

17 And then my neighbour came up to me. She left one bucket next to

18 me, and she carried the other. And she said, "I'm going to get the

19 water." She approached the river; and as the river was flowing in this

20 direction, she turned around and she filled her bucket but not full,

21 because it was very warm and there wasn't much water in the river. And

22 she tried to fill it with her hands. And then suddenly she put her hands

23 to her chest and cried out. And as she tried to get out, she just fell.

24 There was a concrete embankment there, and she fell on the concrete. Her

25 legs were next to the water, and she fell down on the ground. I saw her

Page 3418

1 opening her mouth two or three times. And the second bullet must have hit

2 her here in the neck. I started screaming. I moved towards her to help

3 her. But somebody caught me by the arm and pulled me back and said, "You,

4 too, will get killed because you're in the sights." And I started

5 screaming, and I headed home.

6 I reached halfway. I lost one slipper. I left it near the

7 bridge. She was lying there dead. And I don't know where these two or

8 three soldiers appeared from, whether they were going on duty or coming

9 from duty work. They saw what had happened, and then the ambulance

10 arrived. And the soldiers started shooting in the direction of the church

11 from which the Serbs were shooting. And while they had come to tie her

12 with ropes to pull her out and put her in the ambulance, I went home. So

13 she was killed on the spot.

14 Q. Had you seen any members of her family at the scene before you

15 went home?

16 A. Just then her daughter and son came, and they started crying,

17 "Save our mother, why don't you save her?" But it was too late.

18 Q. You said that -- earlier, you said that she died around 2.00 or

19 3.00 in the afternoon. And then later, according to the translation, you

20 said that as you and she arrived to get the water, night was about to

21 fall.

22 Could you clarify, please, approximately what time it was that you

23 and she arrived to collect the water.

24 A. Well, let me see. It was in the afternoon. I think it was more

25 probably 3.00 than 2.00. But it wasn't nighttime because we didn't move

Page 3419

1 around at night. We didn't dare. So it was mostly in the afternoon that

2 we went to fetch water at the river.

3 Q. You also said that when you and she arrived, you saw a group of

4 six or seven people taking shelter.

5 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

6 Q. At that stage, did you see or hear any signs of shooting?

7 A. As we were going towards the river, we heard a shot, and I

8 suggested we turn back. But as we needed the water, we continued. So

9 that we waited for a time. We hid, waiting for it to stop.

10 Q. Did you notice anything about the surface of the water in front of

11 you when you heard the shot?

12 A. You could just see the bullet dropping into the river, and the

13 water made a ripple as the bullet hits it. But I didn't hear the shot

14 from the water because of the sound of the water.

15 MR. IERACE: At this stage, Mr. President, I would ask that the

16 witness be shown the video which is P3280K.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, if the technical booth could assist

18 us.

19 [Videotape played]:

20 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Can you please indicate your location to the

21 best of your recollection on the day that Mrs. Munira Zametica was shot.

22 Can you please indicate to the best of your recollection where

23 Mrs. Zametica was located at the time that she was shot.

24 When Mr. Lesic reaches the location -- Mr. Lesic is marking that

25 location with yellow spray paint."

Page 3420


2 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, did you recognise yourself in that video?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The investigator asked you to point to certain places, and you did

5 so. In so doing --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- were your responses truthful?

8 A. Truthful and correct, yes.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I'd like to see the

10 360-degree photograph on the screen. That is Exhibit P3279K. Perhaps

11 the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It is even more clear

14 today than yesterday that the Defence objects to this type of projections

15 simply because we consider this to be montage, editing, which lasted some

16 ten minutes. And it does not ensure the necessary objectivity of these

17 proceedings. It is purely virtual. And I think showing this can only

18 confuse the witness.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber thought it wise to

21 reject your -- to deny your objection, especially since we have had new

22 information this morning, so not to repeat what we said before. But also

23 with the knowledge we have from the testimony of today's witness, that

24 your objection is denied. There's nothing in the testimony of this

25 morning which would be reason to decide differently, and the mere fact

Page 3421












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3422

1 that it might have taken a couple of minutes is not, as you suggest, a

2 reason to believe that this will only create confusion to the witness.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


5 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, I want you to assume -- I withdraw that.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, given the experience last week, could

7 I confirm that the monitor in front of the witness is switched to computer

8 evidence so as to have the best quality image available to her.

9 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, I want you to assume that the camera showing the

10 image in front of you is positioned on the spot where you indicated

11 Mrs. Zametica was shot. Do you understand?

12 A. That that is the place where she was shot, yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, looking back up the bank, one sees part of a

14 bridge; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you see in that shot where you noticed the six or seven people

17 taking shelter when you and Mrs. Zametica first arrived?

18 A. It was here. The bridge was protecting us, and on the bridge

19 there were sacks with earth and sand. So right here, at the very

20 beginning of the bridge, we took shelter. And there were small steps dug,

21 because it is steep there, to reach the river. So right up there at the

22 top, that is where the group of us had gathered.

23 Q. All right. Now, we cannot see where you were pointing, although,

24 I confess, I can see a reflection of it. Were you pointing to the area

25 approximately where the foundation of the bridge appears?

Page 3423

1 A. A little forward from the foundations, maybe two or three steps

2 from the bridge, on the slope.

3 Q. You mentioned that there were some steps. Were they alongside the

4 foundation of the bridge?

5 A. No. No. A little bit removed from the bridge, so that we could

6 reach the river more easily, because it was steep.

7 Q. Approximately how far were the steps from the bridge foundation?

8 A. Maybe half a metre up to one metre.

9 Q. You also mentioned that there were some bags of sand. I take

10 it --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Whereabouts were they in relation to the bridge foundation?

13 A. The sandbags were on both sides, along the length of the bridge.

14 It was protection, because you couldn't pass across the bridge, because

15 the sniper was shooting and we had to run across. And there was a very

16 small space that was not covered by the sandbags, because people got

17 wounded there from the church. We had to run across. Those who didn't

18 manage -- so we were protected by containers, but they were not reliable

19 because the tin was thin. So we piled up sandbags up to two metres in

20 height, the height of a man, so that people would not be seen as they ran

21 along.

22 Q. All right. We will now move the photograph around in a circle,

23 slowly.

24 MR. IERACE: Please move the image to the right. Please move it

25 further slightly to the right. Stop there.

Page 3424

1 Q. Now, you mentioned a church and fire being returned to the

2 church.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You have now seen the river in both directions. In which

5 direction was the church? Was it the direction we are looking now or was

6 it the opposite direction?

7 A. In this direction that I'm pointing in.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I now seek to have shown to the

9 witness Exhibit P3279KK.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, how much time would you still need?

11 Because we are close to 1.00. Would this be a -- if it's just one or two

12 questions, fine; otherwise I'd like to stop at exactly 1.00.

13 MR. IERACE: Just one or two questions, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.


16 Q. Please look at the photograph that you are being handed, and

17 please accept from me that it is a detail of the image in front of you as

18 far up the river as one can see. In the photograph, can you see the

19 church to which you referred?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please take a blue pen and place a circle around the church.

22 A. [Marks]

23 MR. IERACE: That would be a convenient place, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

25 Mrs. Sahinovic, we will have a break now. I know that you're only

Page 3425

1 for a short time now in the courtroom, but we'll have a break from 1.00

2 until 2.30, and then the examination will continue. Yes?

3 We'll then adjourn until 2.30.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





















Page 3426

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sahinovic, of course I saw this morning that

3 bringing back into your mind some of the events of those days is very

4 emotional for you. Whenever there's any need to just pause, please let me

5 know. Yes?

6 You then may proceed, Mr. Ierace.


8 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, what was Mrs. Zametica wearing that day?

9 A. She was wearing a skirt, multicoloured skirt, and I think a white

10 T-shirt with short sleeves.

11 Q. You told us this morning that there had been shooting there before

12 that day. When did you move into -- withdraw that. When did you first

13 start collecting water from that area?

14 A. Well, many people went for water, not only me, because the whole

15 area along the river where people living there had to go there to fetch

16 water because there was nowhere else to get water from except when it

17 rained, and then we collected rain.

18 Q. Okay. This happened in July 1993. Were you collecting water from

19 that area --

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. -- in 1992?

22 A. Yes, I was. No. In 1992, I used to live in Grbavica until

23 September 30th, 1992. It was then when they expelled us, and then I moved

24 to Dobrinja.

25 Q. Did you start collecting water from this area after September

Page 3427

1 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And was there shooting at people collecting water,

4 from what you personally observed, from the time you started to collect

5 water yourself, or at some point after that?

6 A. There was shooting going on on a daily basis, sometimes during the

7 whole day, because the snipers weren't selective in their choice. They

8 targeted children and women, everyone. And I had to collect water, and

9 then I waited until it ceased, and then I would collect water and I would

10 run home. We had to have the water. We couldn't live without that water.

11 Q. Now, after this day that Mrs. Zametica was shot dead, did you

12 continue to collect water from that area?

13 A. Yes, I went for water, but I didn't go to the same place. I

14 couldn't. I changed location. I went lower down. I never wished to go

15 back to that place.

16 Q. All right. Do you know from your own observations whether sniping

17 or shooting continued at the site where Mrs. Zametica was killed, after

18 she died?

19 A. They were shooting along the river. And whoever is there at the

20 moment, well, they got wounded. And I heard from the neighbours that

21 another two women were wounded, and an elderly man, 70 or 80 years old,

22 whilst crossing the bridge. He was wounded. I don't know what eventually

23 happened to him, but there was shooting going on.

24 Q. Do you know the name of the street that has the bridge?

25 A. Oktobarske Revolucije it was called earlier, and now it has been

Page 3428

1 changed. I think it is called Dobrinjske Bolnice.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

4 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Sahinovic, you will now be examined by counsel

7 for the Defence, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Sahinovic, good morning.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Can you tell us whether, during 1995, 1996, 1997, did you speak

12 with the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?

13 A. Yes, I did, but I don't remember the exact dates.

14 Q. If I tell you it was on February 25th, 1996, would you agree to

15 that date?

16 A. Well, I honestly do not remember the date.

17 Q. While you were giving the statement, did you sign this statement?

18 A. Yes. What I stated there, I will state everywhere, because it is

19 the truth.

20 Q. Thank you. You said that on that day, you went, along with

21 Mrs. Munira, for water.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us in which part of Dobrinja did you live?

24 A. Dobrinja II.

25 Q. The apartment of the late Munira, where was it located with

Page 3429

1 reference to your flat?

2 A. It was in the same building, apartment building.

3 Q. Did you used to visit her?

4 A. Yes. We were inseparable.

5 Q. The bridge where the incident took place, in relation to your

6 apartment, from your apartment, can you see the bridge?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. From the apartment of the late Munira, can the bridge be seen?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said that the late Munira had a son and daughter.

11 A. Yes, and a husband too.

12 Q. Can you tell us how old the daughter and son are?

13 A. I truly do not know. I think -- well, I don't really know. Over

14 20, I think. I'm not sure, though.

15 Q. Can you tell us whether the daughter is younger or older than the

16 brother?

17 A. Younger.

18 Q. Do you know whether the son and daughter, did they used to go to

19 get water along with Munira?

20 A. Well, they went -- well, we didn't wish to risk their lives. When

21 it was peaceful, when there was a peaceful moment, then the children went.

22 Q. The apartment in which you moved into on September 30th, 1992,

23 whose apartment was it? Did you receive that apartment?

24 A. We were able to use it on a provisional basis. It was a Serb that

25 used to live there and who had left the apartment, and I stayed there

Page 3430

1 until my apartment was evacuated.

2 Q. So then you returned to Grbavica to live?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And now you live there too?

5 A. Yes, in my apartment.

6 Q. Do you know who is living in the flat that you used to live in in

7 Dobrinja?

8 A. I don't think that anyone lives there.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Objection on the basis of relevance, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate to us what the relevance of

12 these questions are, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence believes

14 that these questions are relevant to establish the credibility of the

15 witness, because the witness said that she lived in Grbavica and then in

16 Dobrinja. Now we have heard that she no longer lives in Dobrinja but now

17 in Grbavica. We just wanted to check the credibility of the witness, to

18 find out where she is living now.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, these questions have been put to her, but

20 if I may comment: As far as I understood the witness, her testimony was

21 that she lived in Grbavica. She was then expelled from her house and

22 lived in Dobrinja, and I do not remember that any question was asked as to

23 whether she had lived there since then. So I don't know whether this is a

24 matter of credibility, because even if she would have returned, I don't

25 think that it makes her testimony any less credible. But the questions

Page 3431












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3432

1 have been asked and have been answered, so I think the issue is covered

2 now. Yes, please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, can you tell us, in relation to your apartment and

5 the bridge, whether nearby your apartment there was a hospital in

6 Dobrinja.

7 A. Yes, there was.

8 Q. Can you tell us: In relation to the bridge, how far was your

9 apartment from that bridge?

10 A. Well, perhaps 50 metres, up to 100 metres. Not more.

11 Q. And how was the hospital? How far was it from your apartment?

12 A. About 150 to 200 metres.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us: On that particular day when you went

14 to fetch water, you mentioned, on page 61: [As interpreted] "I don't know

15 where the one or two soldiers came from." That's what you said. Can you

16 tell us: How were these two or three soldiers dressed when they came

17 then?

18 A. I don't think that this is important. They went on duty or from

19 duty. I don't know how they came to be there. They realised that the

20 woman had been killed, and they had to draw her out water and take her to

21 the hospital and save her life.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You testified that you did not know whether they went

23 on duty or whether they returned from duty, but the question of

24 Ms. Pilipovic was how the soldiers at this day were dressed. Would you

25 please answer that question.

Page 3433

1 A. Yes. They were wearing military uniforms, army uniforms.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Military uniforms of which army?

4 A. The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Q. Thank you. Were they carrying arms, those soldiers?

6 A. Well, of course, since they were shooting, they had arms. They

7 came from duty or were going on duty.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Sahinovic, may I ask you: You are both speaking

9 the same language. That means that if you immediately answer to the

10 question, the interpreters will have difficulties in following you. So

11 would you please look at your screen, wait until the -- it stops moving,

12 and then answer the questions; otherwise the interpreters cannot follow

13 you. Do you understand what I mean?

14 Please proceed.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. When you said -- when you told us about the soldiers, that they

17 were wearing uniforms and carried weapons and that you said that they were

18 going from duty or to duty. Now, in relation to the bridge, where you

19 were collecting water, where were the soldiers on duty?

20 A. I really do not know.

21 Q. Do you know whether near the building where you lived, the army --

22 the soldiers were established, whether there were any soldiers there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know whether near the hospital there were military

25 buildings?

Page 3434

1 A. No, they, in fact, targeted the hospital. No.

2 Q. Now you said that those soldiers were carrying weapons, since they

3 were shooting. Can you tell us whether the soldiers from Dobrinja were

4 shooting in the direction of other parts of the town?

5 A. The soldiers were shooting at -- from the -- in the direction of

6 the church to save -- to try and save the woman. They tried to cover her.

7 Q. Well, you said they were shooting in the direction of the church.

8 Can you tell us in relation to the church and to the direction in which

9 the shots were coming which part of Dobrinja is it?

10 A. It is Dobrinja IV because the Serb soldiers had Dobrinja IV under

11 control and a part of Dobrinja I.

12 Q. Do you know that even before that event and following that event,

13 the soldiers from Dobrinja II were shooting in the direction of Dobrinja

14 IV, and that the soldiers from Dobrinja IV were shooting in the direction

15 of Dobrinja II prior to this critical event in the year 1992, 1993, and

16 1994? So was there shooting in regard to that part of the town, Dobrinja

17 II and IV?

18 A. From Dobrinja IV, shooting went on incessantly; Dobrinja II and

19 III, Dobrinja V. Dobrinja was encircled from three sides so shooting went

20 on from all three sides, and civilian buildings were targeted.

21 Q. So the question was whether from Dobrinja II, where you are living

22 in the course of 1992, 1993, 1994, whether shots were fired in the

23 direction of Dobrinja IV.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, you told us that the soldiers who were on the bridge when the

Page 3435

1 incident took place were shooting in the direction of Dobrinja IV. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, they were, because they had to. But I don't know if they did

4 that on other occasions because they never actually stayed for longer

5 periods of time on the bridge.

6 Q. You told us that on that day when the incident took place, that

7 first woman whom you thought to be a Serb first took water.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us the name of that woman?

10 A. Her name was Ilinka, but I don't know what her surname was.

11 Q. Do you know where she lived in respect of the bridge and your

12 building?

13 A. In the same building and on the same floor as the late Munira.

14 Q. You said that the building where you were living and where the

15 late Munira was living with her family was about 50 metres away from the

16 bridge?

17 A. Between 50 [Realtime transcript read in error "15"] and 100

18 metres. I didn't measure. This is an approximate figure.

19 Q. Do you know -- did you know where the children and husband of the

20 late Munira were at the time?

21 A. The husband was at home, and the children were nearby, because we

22 were digging a well so as to come to some water so as to avoid going to

23 the river.

24 Q. Can you tell us when -- at the moment when you described that and

25 told us that shooting took place in the water and when you saw that the

Page 3436

1 late Munira had fallen, after what period of time did the children of the

2 late -- did the children of the late Munira come to the site?

3 A. They did come about 5 or 10 minutes after she had been killed.

4 Q. Did both the daughter and son come?

5 A. Yes, they did.

6 Q. Do you know whether the children or husband of the late Munira,

7 did they report this incident to the police?

8 A. I truly do not know.

9 Q. Following the incident, did you talk with the children of the late

10 Munira and ask them whether they had reported the incident to the police?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know from other people that, on that day, the police had

13 gone to the site of the incident?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, today you told us that you went at about 2.00 or

16 3.00 p.m. in the afternoon to fetch water on that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before that event, that incident, in the course of the day, in

19 fact, did you hear any shooting in Dobrinja and in the surroundings?

20 A. During that whole day, the snipers were in action. During the

21 whole day when the snipers were silent, then the shelling started. But on

22 the day we went to collect water, sniping went on throughout the day.

23 Q. Now, do you know from what direction the sniping took place?

24 A. From the direction of Dobrinja IV, from the church and the

25 building in the neighbourhood of Dobrinja IV.

Page 3437

1 Q. Since you have now told us that during that whole day, there was

2 sniping activity from Dobrinja IV, did you hear that there was sniping

3 from the direction of Dobrinja II in the direction of Dobrinja IV?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Since you were on the bridge and you could see soldiers shooting,

6 can you tell us from what sort of weapons were the soldiers shooting?

7 A. I really do not know much about weapons.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, question just asked has the witness

11 being on the bridge. I don't know that that's her evidence. And earlier,

12 at page 61, line 2, my friend said to the witness, apparently reflecting

13 her evidence, that the soldiers had been returning fire to the church from

14 the bridge. I checked the transcript. That hadn't been her evidence

15 here. I would be grateful if my friend could be more careful in how she

16 phrases her questions if she intends to reflect this witness's evidence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I checked it as well, so the objection, although a

18 bit late, is sustained.

19 Ms. Pilipovic, would you be very careful. That's the second time

20 that you are locating someone on the bridge where there has been no

21 testimony up to that moment that they were on the bridge.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, in relation to the spot where you were standing,

24 you told us you were standing below the bridge. Can you tell us from

25 which spot the soldiers were shooting that were returning fire towards

Page 3438

1 Dobrinja IV in relation to you and in relation to the bridge. Could you

2 be more precise about the position of the soldiers?

3 A. The soldiers were on the bridge behind the bags.

4 Q. As you have just told us that the soldiers were shooting from the

5 bridge behind the sacks, in addition to the sandbags on the bridge, were

6 there any other people - I'm thinking of soldiers - guarding that bridge?

7 A. No. No.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as we wish to check

9 the credibility of the witness and the time of the incident, the Defence

10 has a Prosecution exhibit, an official report compiled by workers in the

11 Ministry of the Interior of the Public Security Station of Novi Grad,

12 Sarajevo. The official report was compiled on the 11th of July, 1993,

13 when this particular incident occurred.

14 With your permission, the Defence would like to show the witness

15 this document, or a part of the official report, relating to the time of

16 the incident for us to be able to check the actual time when the incident

17 occurred. I have sufficient copies of this official report, but my

18 learned friends already have it. 0070-8079 in the English translation of

19 the 11th of July, 1993.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 The official report was compiled on the 11th of July, 1993 when an

23 official of the Public Security Station, Novi Grad, in Sarajevo, who

24 signed the report. It was compiled in the premises of the crime police

25 department. And I will read paragraph 3 of this report: "This killing

Page 3439

1 occurred on the 11th of July, 1993, between 1900 and 1930 hours" --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my friend has not advised us at all in

4 relation to this document. I would be grateful if we could have a copy

5 whilst my friend reads from it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine that it seems that the

7 cross-examination, as far as the time is concerned, is, of course, related

8 to the examination-in-chief, but if you would have a copy.

9 Yes, Mr. Usher -- would you please, and then perhaps take other

10 copies as well in case it might be tendered.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, is it your intention to tender it into evidence or

12 just have it marked for identification or just read a line out of the

13 report?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

15 tender it, and I have provided a sufficient number of copies in English,

16 and the Defence has sufficient copies in Serbian, in the B/C/S language.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters do not have a copy.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have enough copies for the interpreters as

20 well?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will also provide

22 eight copies of the official report in the B/C/S language for the

23 interpreters.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3440

1 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, I should like to read to you the one-but-last

2 paragraph of this official report:

3 "This killing occurred on the 11th of July, 1993, between 1900 and

4 1930 hours, below the bridge over the Dobrinja River, which links Dobrinja

5 II to Dobrinja III. The distance is about -- from which the fatal bullet

6 was fired is between 1.000 and 1.500 metres."

7 You told us today that this incident occurred at 2.00 or 3.00 in

8 the afternoon.

9 A. It was not 1900 hours. It was earlier than that.

10 Q. So the time noted in this official report is not the time when the

11 incident occurred?

12 A. I remember that in the morning we took jerrycans to form a queue

13 where there was a pump for drinking water, and you had to wait for two or

14 three days there. And then in the afternoon, about 2.00 or 3.00, we went

15 down to the river. So this is not correct.

16 Q. Can you tell us whether this bridge links Dobrinja II and Dobrinja

17 III, where the incident occurred?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you do confirm that this bridge links Dobrinja II to Dobrinja

20 III?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. You have just told us that you placed jerrycans in a line to form

23 a queue for drinking water.

24 A. Yes. There was a pump at Dobrinja II, and as there were a lot of

25 people living there, we would leave our jerrycans there and move them up

Page 3441












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3442

1 occasionally. You couldn't wait for two or three days to get drinking

2 water, so we would go there and move the jerrycans up the line and then we

3 would go to the river to fetch water.

4 Q. Could you tell us: When you in Dobrinja II and Dobrinja III don't

5 have water, do other parts of Dobrinja have water if you don't?

6 A. There was no water anywhere, because the water supply was closed.

7 So we tried to dig some wells, pumps, to get hold of drinking water.

8 Q. So as far as I have been able to understand, when you don't have

9 water, then Dobrinja I, II, III, IV, V don't have any water either?

10 A. I don't know about Dobrinja I and IV, but I don't know about this

11 part over here, and I know that people went to the river to fetch water.

12 Q. Can you tell us: On this photograph, Prosecution Exhibit P3279,

13 which was shown to you, KK, 3279KK -- Mrs. Sahinovic, how frequently did

14 you go to fetch water from the river underneath the bridge? When I mean

15 how frequently, I mean during the week or during the day.

16 A. It depended on the need. Sometimes three or four times, sometimes

17 seven or eight times, because you need a lot of water to wash your clothes

18 with.

19 Q. So you told us that there were bags piled up to a height of two

20 metres on the bridge.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Before those bags were placed there, can you tell us when they

23 were placed there in relation to the period when you came to live in

24 Dobrinja?

25 A. I don't know. Believe me, when I came from Grbavica, those

Page 3443

1 barricades and those sacks were already there, because there was shooting

2 from Nedzarici and the sandbags were piled up so that cars could pass.

3 Q. When you say that there was shooting from Nedzarici, do you mean

4 that Nedzarici can be seen from that part of Dobrinja?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know whether it is possible from the bridge at which the

7 incident occurred, that Nedzarici can be seen?

8 A. No, not all of it. Just a bit of it, maybe two houses.

9 Q. Do you know whether, in 1992, 1993, 1994, there was any shooting

10 from Dobrinja II towards Nedzarici?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can you tell us: From the bridge, when you were going to fetch

13 water, did you ever cast a glance towards Dobrinja IV and the church?

14 A. Let me tell you: I didn't have time, because I just tried to

15 catch the right moment to fetch water. There's no time to look around.

16 Q. So you're telling us that you never, when crossing the bridge,

17 cast a glance in the direction of Dobrinja IV and the church?

18 A. From the bridge, I didn't, because I didn't dare to. And from

19 below the bridge, at some times, but you don't dare to; you can't look.

20 Q. And when you did cast a glance sometimes from below the bridge,

21 what could you see? Could you tell us?

22 A. What did I see? I saw the church, I saw buildings, I saw the

23 river. What else?

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that the buildings -- or

25 rather, can you identify the buildings on this photograph to the left of

Page 3444

1 the river, the photograph next to you? To the left of the church. I'm

2 sorry. The buildings, if you're looking in the direction of the river, to

3 the left of the church. The buildings are on the left-hand side and the

4 church is on the right-hand side. Can you tell us what part of Dobrinja

5 that is?

6 A. Dobrinja IV.

7 Q. Do you know that the buildings that you see on the left-hand side,

8 of which you said were Dobrinja IV, that the first building on the right

9 in relation to the church, that that part of the building was under the BH

10 army control, and the building on the left was under the control of the

11 army of Republika Srpska?

12 A. Believe me, I don't know. I didn't walk around Dobrinja. The

13 route I took was the river and my apartment building. I didn't need to

14 walk around anywhere else. I just heard that Dobrinja IV and Dobrinja I

15 were held by Serb soldiers. As to the actual boundaries, believe me, I

16 don't know.

17 Q. In the course of 1992, September, when you arrived, and 1993 and

18 1994, would you see any other soldiers in Dobrinja apart from these three

19 that you saw on that occasion?

20 A. I would see them passing by. There was the police and ...

21 Q. When you say "the police," do you consider them to be soldiers or

22 do you make a distinction between the two?

23 A. I think everywhere there's the police and there's the army.

24 Q. So you're telling us that there were both police and army in

25 Dobrinja?

Page 3445

1 A. As there were everywhere else.

2 Q. In relation to the bridge and the place where the incident

3 occurred, can you tell us what the distance is between the bridge and the

4 buildings of Dobrinja IV and the church?

5 A. You mean the distance? I don't know.

6 Q. When you told us that you did look in that direction occasionally

7 from under the bridge, can you tell us what it is you saw? Did you see

8 these buildings on the photographs and the church?

9 A. Believe me, I had no interest.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: I think that may be another example, Mr. President.

12 My recollection is that the witness said she didn't see the church when

13 she was under the bridge because she was too busy. And the question just

14 put to the witness presumes that she had given evidence that she did look

15 at the church.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It's my recollection that she did testify, as a

17 matter of fact, but let me just check. I remember that line of

18 questioning was that although she had hardly ever an opportunity to look,

19 that when she looked...

20 MR. IERACE: Page 82, line 15 onwards, I think.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You said page?

22 MR. IERACE: 82, line 15, was, I think, her first answer. And the

23 very next question presumed a different answer.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Have a look.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

Page 3446


2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, the

3 witness said that she would occasionally cast a glance from under the

4 bridge, so I can be quite specific as to her answer. If I was given an

5 answer, I will withdraw that question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you look for "what else" because that was the

7 second part of her answer, as far as my recollection goes, she said: "The

8 church, the buildings, and the river. What else?" That's what is in my

9 recollection, but I still have to find it.

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. Page 82, 19.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The question was: "And when you did cast a glance

12 sometimes from below the bridge, what could you see? Could you tell us?"

13 The answer, and I'm reading now, page 82, line 19: "What did I see? I

14 saw the church, I saw buildings, I saw the river. What else?"

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you look at line 9, that's the

16 first question my friend asked as to whether she ever cast a glance - and

17 I quote from the English translation - towards the church. And she said:

18 "Let me tell you, I didn't have time..." and so on. "There's no time to

19 look around." And she was asked a second time, "So you're telling us you

20 never --"

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me clarify the issue because sometimes, of

22 course, if you give an answer in a rather general way, if I would say I

23 have got no time to look at any of these people in the courtroom, that

24 wouldn't mean perhaps that I never did.

25 Mrs. Sahinovic, your first answer to a question of Ms. Pilipovic

Page 3447

1 was that you had no time to look around when you were at the bridge. You

2 had no time for that. And the second question was that if you had ever

3 looked around, what would you see? Did you never look around, or did you

4 perhaps on a few occasions look around and then saw the church, houses,

5 buildings, and the river?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you: When I go to

7 the river, I go there with fear. And my sole aim is to get some water.

8 Sometimes when I crouch down to fill my can, and then I do look up towards

9 the church, towards Dobrinja IV. I didn't stop there to look around out

10 of curiosity.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is quite clear. The objection is denied.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

14 you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, as far as you remember, you said that those were brief

16 moments when you looked in that direction. On the basis of your

17 recollection, can you tell us, did the church have the same appearance as

18 it does on this photograph now?

19 A. I don't remember. Believe me, I didn't have time to notice the

20 colour of the church or things like that.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your indulgence,

22 may I consult with my colleague?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3448

1 Q. Witness, you told us today that you saw soldiers on the bridge,

2 shooting. Can you tell us where those soldiers slept in Dobrinja? Was

3 there a particular place where they slept or not? What do you know about

4 that?

5 A. I have no idea. I don't know. Believe me.

6 Q. And can you tell us, in relation to the site of the incident and

7 your own apartment, how far the front lines were in relation to that part

8 of the city, in relation to your street and the bridge?

9 A. I don't know that either. I never went to the front lines.

10 Q. In this part of your street and this part of town, were there any

11 trenches?

12 A. No.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

14 further questions. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Ierace?

17 MR. IERACE: Just a few questions, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

20 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, you were asked questions about the soldiers who

21 returned the fire and where they came from. Had you noticed any soldiers

22 anywhere in the vicinity at or before Mrs. Zametica was shot?

23 A. No, no. There were just civilians there, next to the river. No

24 one else who came to fetch water.

25 Q. Did you cross the bridge before you and Mrs. Zametica went to

Page 3449

1 collect the water, or did you approach that area without crossing the

2 bridge?

3 A. No, we didn't cross the bridge because we approached the river

4 from our side, from our building. So we didn't have to cross the bridge.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the only other remaining possible

6 issue is the date of birth of the witness. I will clarify that, if it's

7 required, or leave it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it may be clarified at this moment.


10 Q. Mrs. Sahinovic, were you born in 1952?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any questions?

14 Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps

16 regarding one of the points raised now by the Prosecution, the Defence

17 would like to specify something connected to what has just been said. May

18 we do so?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll do so on

21 behalf of my colleague.

22 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Witness, you stated a moment ago that the

24 soldiers intervened to try and save the life of that person. Is that

25 quite correct?

Page 3450

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I gave you the

2 opportunity to, as you asked me, to -- you said perhaps regarding one of

3 the points raised now by the Prosecution, the Defence would like to

4 specify something connected to what has just been said. I do not see any

5 relation to what has been raised just -- and I'm not talking about what

6 has been raised during the re-examination, because you know that there's

7 no further examination.

8 So I want to limit the issue you may question the witness about

9 about the age, which was the only supplementary issue raised with

10 the permission of this Court after the --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there were two

12 points; the age, I think, and also he asked the witness to specify that

13 the soldiers were not present at the time of the incident. And it is with

14 regard to that point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't a new issue; that was re-examination of

16 the witness. And as you know, usually we have no -- it's

17 examination-in-chief, cross-examination, re-examination if necessary, and

18 that's it. But if it's just one question, and if the Prosecution would

19 not object, I'll consider.

20 Please proceed, although it's not our common order.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It's

22 very kind of you. I'm going to rephrase the question.

23 Q. Madam, you stated that these soldiers opened fire with the aim of

24 saving the life of that person. Is that right, to save her?

25 A. They couldn't save that woman because the woman was already dead.

Page 3451












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3452

1 But they couldn't -- because they couldn't pull her out, they opened fire

2 to drag her out and transport her to the hospital. But she was already

3 dead. They didn't open fire before that; they opened fire after the woman

4 had been killed.

5 Q. Another question --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.

9 May I then give an opportunity to Judge Nieto-Navia to put an

10 additional question or additional questions to you, Mrs. Sahinovic.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like you to clarify something about

13 the distance between your building and the bridge. Because in one of your

14 answers, you said 50 to 100 metres, that is 5-0; and after that, because

15 Ms. Pilipovic spoke about 15, 1-5, you confirm 15 to 100 metres. I would

16 like to know exactly which is the correct answer.

17 A. Let me tell you. I think between 50 and 150 metres. Between that

18 spot and my building, that was the distance. I didn't measure it, but

19 roughly 50 to 100, 150, something like that. Believe me, I can't tell you

20 more precisely than that. If I were to look at it like this, about 100,

21 150 metres, something like that, because I didn't measure it.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Not 15? Not 15?

23 A. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.

24 JUDGE ORIE: An additional question by Judge El Mahdi.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 3453

1 I apologise, Madam Witness, but I would like you to clarify for me

2 the time that it took for the soldiers to come to your aid.

3 A. I don't know myself where they came from, these soldiers, because

4 the woman had already fallen down. She was already dead. So I was so

5 confused. I didn't know what was happening. I saw the ambulance up

6 there. Who called them, when they arrived, I really don't know. I was

7 out of my mind. They tried to pull out the woman, but they didn't dare.

8 And then from somewhere, these soldiers appear. Believe me, I don't know

9 where they came from, nor when they came. I know that they opened fire to

10 drag her out and to take her to the hospital.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In your opinion, were they

12 soldiers who were stationed on the bridge?

13 A. No, they were not on the bridge. They were passing. They were on

14 guard and coming back or they were going to do guard duty.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] After, when they opened fire, you

16 said towards the church, was there an exchange of fire, an exchange of

17 shooting, by both sides, if I can put it that way?

18 A. No. No. No.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So no one responded?

20 A. Believe me, they took me away from there. As soon as I saw her

21 fall, I went off. I lost the slipper. I really don't know what happened

22 after that, nor did I hear or see anything after that.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I have not a question for you, but a question for

25 both parties.

Page 3454

1 Is it the intention of one of the parties to tender into evidence

2 the death certificate of Mrs. Zametica?

3 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what the

8 Defence would like to tender would be the document drafted by the police

9 regarding this incident, which gives a different time than given by the

10 witness. It is document 0070879.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking not what you indicated already that you

12 would tender into evidence, but whether the death certificate would be

13 tendered into evidence as well.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that, but

15 while the Prosecution was looking for the document, we will not be

16 tendering it, but the Prosecution may do so, of course, I think.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we're just locating the

19 documentation. It had been my intention to --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. --

21 MR. IERACE: It had been my intention to tender a death

22 certificate through the next witness, but it's been drawn to my attention

23 that it may not be in the notice to the parties to the Defence and to Your

24 Honours. Excuse me for one moment.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Does any of the parties have the death certificate at

Page 3455

1 this moment available?

2 MR. IERACE: Not available at the moment, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, does the Defence have the ...

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Are we talking about the death

5 certificate? I may have it on my computer, but as the system is not very

6 effective, I'm not able to trace it just now.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Perhaps -- yes.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Miracles are possible. We do

9 have something, but it is totally illegible. It is one of those documents

10 that are quite illegible, which I can offer, if necessary, but really, one

11 can't see anything. I'm ready to hand it over to you for your

12 examination, inspection, but it's not legible.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... to see whether

14 it's legible at all. I mean, illegible documents usually are not of great

15 probative value, but -- Mr. Ierace?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the situation is that we have an

17 application before the Trial Chamber for the deceased's husband to give

18 evidence by way of Rule 92 bis, and that will include the death

19 certificate, as I understand it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that a legible -- could you please show me

21 what document you have?

22 Mr. Usher, could you please --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I hope your sight is

24 better than mine, because I can't see anything.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3456

1 JUDGE ORIE: We have considered the document you just provided,

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I do agree with you that it's not easy to read it, but

3 we couldn't say that everything is illegible on this document, which I'll

4 now return to you. It's the -- under Rule 98, the Chamber has the power

5 to order the parties to produce additional evidence. The Chamber is not

6 that much interested in which party finally will produce the evidence,

7 whether it's the Defence or the Prosecution, but the document you just

8 showed to me, which is not very good, legible, but there's at least some

9 information which seems to be legible, we would like one of the parties to

10 produce that in evidence, and we'll not release the witness until this

11 document has been tendered into evidence by one of the parties. Whether

12 it should be done right away or that we take our time and, well, let's

13 say, do it at a later stage, once we've called the next witness, that's

14 not our great concern.

15 You'll understand why this Chamber is interested to see whatever

16 you can read on a death certificate. That's because during

17 cross-examination a lot of attention has been paid to the time of the

18 incident where -- well, sometimes death certificates give additional

19 information as to the time of the death of a person, so that it might be

20 possible that this -- I would say this contradiction in the testimony of

21 the witness and the document tendered into evidence might be resolved by

22 the production of a death certificate as evidence, and therefore, if we

23 have the information, if there's any information legible on the death

24 certificate, we would also like -- also would like to be in a position to

25 ask any question about it to the witness.

Page 3457

1 I do understand that no one has made copies of any document. No

2 one was intending even to tender into evidence.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure. We do not

5 have copies, of course. But we have, I think, provided for the Chamber a

6 document with the number I just mentioned, 0028-3611, which the Defence

7 does intend to tender into evidence. And I think that sufficient copies

8 have been provided and in a legible form.


10 But that's not the death certificate. The number you just

11 mentioned is a document about the incident; we're not only provided with

12 that document but also with a translation of it. But this Chamber is not

13 asking for the document that is contradicting the testimony of the witness

14 but this Chamber orders the production of a death certificate which, as

15 far as I understand, does exist.

16 So is one of the parties in a position to do it now? Otherwise,

17 we may start with the examination-in-chief of the next witness and ask the

18 Prosecution to recall Ms. Sahinovic as soon as practical.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be that we can comply with that

20 request in the next 10 or 15 minutes. It was, in fact, the only reason

21 that Salko [phoen] Zametica was to give evidence, that is the husband of

22 the deceased, because he was not an eyewitness. So we will do our most to

23 obtain a copy of that certificate before 4.00 this afternoon. And if that

24 is tendered, then, of course, there's no need for us to call Salko

25 Zametica. Thank you.

Page 3458

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Sahinovic, you might be surprised by a lot

2 of discussions on all kinds of technical issues we are dealing with. I

3 will explain you what the reason is. You have testified that the incident

4 took place at 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon. You have been confronted

5 with a report which says that the incident took place at 7.00 in the

6 evening, or 7.00 until 7.30.

7 This Chamber wants to clarify the issue. You said later on that

8 it was certainly not 7.00. But the Chamber asks now the parties to see --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether there's any document, death certificate,

11 which might clarify the issue. So it might be necessary that you have to

12 return in the courtroom since if such a document is used in evidence,

13 perhaps the Chamber, but also the parties, should have the opportunity to

14 put any questions to you in relation to that death certificate.

15 But we also have to find it. So it might take a while. We hope

16 still this afternoon. So that would mean within 20 minutes, that you

17 could be recalled. But I think, for the time being, could we proceed with

18 the next witness already and then recall Ms. Sahinovic?

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, indeed, Mr. President. And the next witness

20 will have some evidence on this issue.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So at this moment, all the questions have been

22 put to you, but it might be that there are any additional questions. So

23 you are not released yet definitely. But for the moment, you may leave

24 the courtroom, and you'll be guided out by the usher.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 3459

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know for sure whether you'll return or not.

2 If we do not see you again, then of course -- yes, please. If we don't

3 see you again, then of course this is the moment where I would like to

4 thank you for having come from far away. But there might be a possibility

5 that we see you again. If not, we have seen that it was not easy for you,

6 and we fully understand that it was not. And therefore, we thank you very

7 much. And of course, if I don't see you again, a safe trip home.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wish you much success,

9 good health.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, until the next

13 witness comes, we would like an explanation from our learned colleague in

14 respect of the next witness. First of all, I would like to state that the

15 list of witnesses included Vahid Zametica, and I believed him to be the

16 son of the late Munira. There are two statements, photographs, and a map

17 given to the OTP. On February 7th, the Defence received an official note

18 in English, talk was conducted with Vahida Zametica, in fact. And now I

19 understand that -- from the previous witness, that the late Munira had

20 both a son and a daughter. On the list of witnesses for this week, we

21 have the name Vahida. And before that, we had the name of Vahid. So we

22 are not clear as to who will be the witness in respect of this incident.

23 I would like to kindly ask my learned colleagues, and respecting

24 the order of the Court, to say that there has been a change in the name of

25 the witness, that is not a question of Vahid coming but Vahida. So I

Page 3460

1 would like to know whether it is Vahid or Vahida who will be the next

2 witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Will you please give the clarification, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next witness is Vahida Zametica;

5 that is the daughter. As to the complaint by my friend in relation to

6 earlier notices, I would be grateful if I could wait until the return of

7 my case manager so I could see the correspondence that causes my learned

8 colleague some concern.

9 My case manager is at the moment locating the death certificate.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you're talking about an official note

12 on the 7th of February. Is that correct?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. Talk

14 was conducted with Vahida. And this is the only document we have in

15 respect of the witness Vahida. Now, it is clear to me that it is the

16 daughter of the late Munira. The other witness is the son. We have two

17 statements from the son of the late Munira, photographs, and a map.

18 As regards Vahida, we only have an official note dating

19 February 7th, and we have no other document at all. So this is the first

20 time that we hear that a witness by the name of Vahida Zametica is

21 coming. Before, in all the documents, we have had -- the name of Vahid

22 was mentioned, and documents in relation to him. So I would like some

23 clarification by my learned colleague.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, even whilst I await the arrival of my

25 case manager, I have located a letter that I sent to Mrs. Pilipovic by

Page 3461












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3462

1 facsimile dated the 29th of January, 2002, and I have the confirmation

2 that it was successfully sent where it lists on page 1 following the

3 calling of Sadija Sahinovic, the next witness would be Vahida Zametica.

4 So at least at this stage, I can produce some correspondence showing that

5 within the required notification of seven days we complied with

6 notification that we would call her.

7 Mr. President, in relation to Vahid Zametica, there is not a 65

8 ter summary for him. I would be quite happy to call him if my friends

9 would like that. That could be arranged.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right in understanding that the son of the late

11 Mrs. Zametica is called Vahid and the daughter is called Vahida?

12 MR. IERACE: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do see on the 29th of January, and I have got a

14 copy of that letter, which clearly indicates that it is Vahida, but later

15 on if there has been another name --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, it was written

17 by Vahida, but the Defence has no document on the basis of which we could

18 conclude that the Prosecution would call the witness Vahida instead of the

19 witness Vahid. In respect to this incident, I had the names of Vahid

20 Zametica and Sadija Sahinovic, so we did not know that the daughter would

21 be interrogated and not the son. And here is the problem: So if my

22 colleagues had been more precise in saying that it was the daughter and

23 not the son that would be examined, we have no information to that

24 effect. It said Sahinovic [as interpreted] son. That was the name

25 mentioned.

Page 3463

1 JUDGE ORIE: When was it sent to you that you could expect Vahid

2 Zametica to testify? What is the source for your assumption that it would

3 be the son? Because I see in the letter of the 29th of January, I see

4 Vahida, sniping incident 6, no exhibits.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, earlier in the list

6 of witnesses, we always had the name Vahid Zametica, and not Vahida. It

7 was not clear to the Defence, and we did not know that the late Munira had

8 a daughter called Vahida. Had my colleagues written this, that it was not

9 Vahid but Vahida, it would have been quite clear to the Defence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, if I understand Ms. Pilipovic well,

11 it would say that there would be no witness on the list, but I see that

12 Judge Nieto-Navia is just checking. I have got a list here somewhere as

13 well.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, on document -- on the document that has been

15 provided by the Prosecutor, "Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic, list of

16 witnesses the Prosecutor intends to call pursuant to Rule 65 ter (E)(ii),"

17 I see that a witness Zametica Vahida is mentioned, with a number behind

18 it, 1347. So at least there has been -- but is there no summary of this

19 statement of Vahida? We can't accept, on this basis, that the Prosecutor

20 never has indicated that a Vahida Zametica would be called. So the next

21 question would be whether you have a summary of a statement of Vahida

22 Zametica.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the moment, we do

24 not have a summary of the statement. I checked the statements of my

25 colleagues. Perhaps I was not careful enough. But I don't have this

Page 3464

1 statement. I have a summary of the interview dated February 7th, 2002.

2 Now -- so I have the official note dating back to February 7, 2002. I

3 have no other document. The Defence is prepared to examine the witness,

4 but because the names are similar, Vahid and Vahida, and if I hadn't this

5 statement of Vahida, photographs, and the maps for incident 6, there would

6 not have been any confusion. But since I have documentation relating to

7 Vahid, and because the names are Vahid and Vahida, I suppose this was the

8 source of confusion.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just assume that this is all a

10 misunderstanding. I think blaming the Prosecution for never having

11 indicated that there might have been a Vahida Zametica is not correct,

12 because it's on the list, it's in the letter of the 29th of January, and

13 it was also on the recent letter that I just received today. But it's

14 close to 4.00. Let's try to resolve the problem. Perhaps you'll be able

15 to prepare for the cross-examination this evening so that we can proceed

16 tomorrow morning. And let's just see, after we lost some ten minutes on

17 the issue, whether we can perhaps solve the other issue of the death

18 certificate and just accept that we have to stop in a couple of minutes.

19 And let's not spend too much time any more on how the problem was created,

20 unless someone has a very clear and convincing idea on that. But I always

21 am more concentrating on the solution of problems than of finding out

22 exactly where the problems come from.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, given that my friend has said that she

24 doesn't have a copy of Vahida Zametica's statement, following the sitting

25 this afternoon, I will ensure that my friend receives some copies in

Page 3465

1 English and also in Bosnian of her statement.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Is there any chance -- will there be a

3 chance that the death certificate -- or let's just adjourn until tomorrow

4 morning, then perhaps first start, whenever the death certificate has been

5 found, by recalling Mrs. Sahinovic and then continue with Vahida

6 Zametica. Yes. Okay. We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning. We'll

7 also then deal with all the documents tendered into evidence, so that we

8 have them all together for the one witness.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When I say "tomorrow morning," it's at 9.00 in

11 this same courtroom.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.57 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of

14 February 2002, at 9.00 a.m.