Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3665

1 Thursday, 14 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we resume the examination of the witness, I'd

10 like to inform the parties that we still have to hear argument on the

11 Prosecution's intention to adduce non-oral testimony, the application of

12 article 92 bis. As we've seen, you've given notice to the Defence, and

13 the Defence has objected. So we'll have to hear the parties on that. I'd

14 rather not do it now right away. As far as I understood, it will take

15 some time before you seek to introduce these statements in evidence. That

16 means that we could use whenever there's a moment where no witnesses are

17 available to be examined, that we then could use that time to have oral

18 argument on these objections raised by the Defence. So I would urge the

19 parties to be at all times prepared for such oral argument. It's just a

20 matter of efficiency that I'm not fixing at this moment a certain date.

21 If of course there will not come a moment in the near future that there

22 are no witnesses, then of course we'll fix a certain moment when we'll

23 hear more about the objections and the reasons why the Prosecution seeks

24 to adduce these non-oral statements in evidence. So be prepared.

25 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

Page 3666

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the reasons I outlined two days

2 ago, at this stage we only have six witnesses for the four days of hearing

3 next week, and therefore following the calling of those six witnesses may

4 be an opportune time to have those submissions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. That's what I had in mind as a matter of

6 fact. So the Defence is aware of that as well, and as soon as we run

7 short of witnesses, we'll use the time to have oral argument.

8 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Merely to

10 say that this is a matter of organisation which will be dealt with by your

11 Chamber. But for the next week, at this stage I do not think we are quite

12 organised for that on Monday.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Monday to start

14 with. That's fine.

15 Then I think we can continue the cross-examination of

16 Mr. Grabovica.

17 Yes, please, Mr. Usher, would you please bring the witness into

18 the courtroom.

19 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry, I was just looking at

21 the transcript what I said and it seems that it wasn't quite clear here.

22 That is that I could not be hear at the hearing on Monday. I have already

23 apologised for that, but that is what I just said, I won't be able to be

24 present here on Monday. I'm sorry, but I hope that the Chamber understood

25 what I just said.

Page 3667

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... quite clear.

2 I don't expect that the oral argument will take place on Monday.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Grabovica, can you hear me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Grabovica, I'd like to remind you that you are

9 still bound by the solemn declaration you made yesterday. That may go

10 without saying, but I just remind you.

11 Then, Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed with the cross-examination of

12 the witness.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning,

16 everybody.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. Yesterday, we adjourned when you answered how many passengers were

21 on the bus. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Can you tell me, at the moment when you heard the shot, what

24 happened then? You said that you had heard the passengers screaming and

25 that you switched on the engine and started?

Page 3668

1 A. Yes, it is quite true that I heard passengers screaming. I stood

2 up from my steering wheel. I could see a woman holding on to her knee on

3 one side of the bus. On the other side of the bus there was another women

4 all covered in blood because she had been hit in an artery and there was a

5 pool of blood underneath her.

6 Q. And what did you do then?

7 A. A man suggested to block the artery with one's hand. I would have

8 done that same -- I would have done that myself, but I thought it would be

9 best if I went to the hospital.

10 Q. So you went to the hospital?

11 A. I switched on the engine, closed the doors, and started for the

12 hospital.

13 Q. When you arrived at the hospital, what did you do then?

14 A. The passengers in the bus were still panicking from the doors,

15 there was a sniper on the faculty of theology. I wasn't paying attention

16 to what the passengers were saying.

17 Q. Are you telling us that all the passengers were in the bus with

18 you as you went to the hospital?

19 A. Yes, that is correct, all the passengers were in the bus.

20 Q. And when did the passengers leave the bus?

21 A. When I reached the hospital, in front of the hospital, there was

22 some medical personnel who were waiting with stretchers.

23 Q. Can you tell us who it is who had announced your arrival to the

24 hospital?

25 A. I do not know who it was but they knew that somebody was about to

Page 3669

1 arrive.

2 Q. How long did it take you from the place where the alleged incident

3 happened to the hospital?

4 A. Because I had to turn the bus and go over the pavement and along

5 and then it didn't take more than two or three minutes.

6 Q. Can you explain how could the medical personnel learn in that

7 interval that you were coming, that is how could they be notified so as to

8 be there waiting for you in front of the hospital?

9 A. Perhaps there was a team which was on duty and waiting there all

10 the time. But when I arrived there, they were waiting in front of the

11 entrance.

12 Q. And after the passengers who, as you say, had been injured, you

13 left them in the hospital, after you left them in the hospital what did

14 you as the bus driver do with the bus? What happened next?

15 A. Well, the medical personnel and other passengers happened to get

16 those passengers off the bus, and the medical personnel because I presumed

17 that the doctor had said that a woman marked as B had bled a great deal,

18 had lost a lot of blood.

19 Q. What did you do with the bus?

20 A. I went back with the bus to the garage. It is Velikih Drveta on

21 Alipasino Bridge.

22 Q. Did you report the incident to the police?

23 A. I was in the garage, and the local police came for inspection.

24 Q. Can you tell us from what part of the city did the local police

25 come?

Page 3670

1 A. I wouldn't know exactly, but they examined the bus. They saw

2 where the bullet penetrated. They took photographs, made the record. And

3 I don't know, I'm not the investigator to know what happened after that.

4 Q. Did you make a statement on that occasion?

5 A. I did what I'm doing today and here.

6 Q. You are telling us, you mean, that the vehicle, the bus, was

7 photographed and that the hole was inspected, the bullet hole, that it was

8 inspected?

9 A. Yes, that is right.

10 Q. And after that, after the incident and after you gave your

11 statement where you sum it again?

12 A. About a year later, a man came to my address and asked me to give

13 a statement, asked me if I remembered what it was and how it was.

14 Q. Do you have any knowledge that those passengers and you called

15 them passengers A and B, do you have any knowledge as to the state of

16 their health later on?

17 A. The next day, I learned that person B had succumbed.

18 Q. And if I show you the testimonies, Witness, of persons A and B who

19 were in the bus, will you accept, that both witnesses A and B survived

20 and are living in Dobrinja?

21 A. Yes, you can.

22 Q. Do you have any knowledge, since you told us that the local police

23 had come and performed the investigation, do you have any knowledge if a

24 few days after the incident, the media said that the person who had fired

25 at the bus had been arrested?

Page 3671

1 A. I didn't know that.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

3 Defence should like to show the statement of the witness who was on the

4 bus. We received the statement from our learned friends. The statement

5 was made on the 30th of August, 2000. It was a person who was in that bus

6 and who was injured in her legs testifying to the fact that I just

7 examined the witness, says something different, says something else. And

8 I have her statement in English. It is page 5 in B/C/S and page 0012-18

9 in English. I have it in the sufficient number of copies, the statements,

10 can it please be given to the interpreters and the interpreters' booths,

11 and I will read only this part of the statement and I will invite the

12 witness to give us his opinion.

13 That is, 30th of August, 2000.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we would respectfully request a copy

16 of this statement. We don't seem to have it with us here this morning.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I hear that there are a sufficient number of

18 copies available.

19 So, Mr. Usher, would you please.

20 May I assume, Ms. Pilipovic, that you're going to read a specific

21 part of the statement to the witness? Is it your intention to call this

22 since I do understand that this is someone who has given a statement --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Will they be called by the Prosecution or is it

25 one of the witnesses on the list to be called by the Prosecution?

Page 3672

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The Defence

2 wishes to propose that the part of the statement on page 5 referring to

3 the person who fired at the bus be introduced as a Defence exhibit because

4 we already heard a witness.


6 If anyone misses a page, 01039216 which opens with the witness

7 statement, I have a double copy.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, I will read to you the statement of Witness A as you

10 marked her in the bus who was present in the bus, and that is page 5 of

11 the statement.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters were not given copies of this

13 statement.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Page 5 in B/C/S.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the interpreters have not got copies of

17 the statement. Is that true? Or do you just have the English version,

18 Ms. Pilipovic?

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it in B/C/S, too, but

20 only one copy.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please provide it to the interpreters booth

22 to start with so that we can avoid any difficulties in the translation.

23 May I just ask you, Ms. Pilipovic: I have four pages in front of

24 me now, the first one last two digits are 14. The second is with the last

25 two digits 16, and the third 17, the fourth 18. 15 I would expect would

Page 3673












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3674

1 be there as well, but I've got no idea whether it's relevant or not.

2 Yes, I see. That's the reason why I got two 16s.

3 Madam Registrar, would you have another 9215 for me because it was not 17

4 that was missing but 15 that was missing. Okay.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has the

6 page with 15, but there are only signatures on this page. And we have a

7 number of copies, but I -- because I will be reading only the text which

8 is on page 5.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. I will be reading the passage 6. "At the time that I was shot in

12 the bus, I was not aware where had the shots come from. Later on, I was

13 told that a Serb called Goran Vasic was the one who had shot the bus. I

14 saw it on Bosnian television some days later that Vasic had been

15 arrested. The announcer said that his name was Vasic, and that he had

16 been arrested for shooting at the bus. I was also told by my son that a

17 man who had shot the bus had been arrested and that he had admitted that

18 he had shot at the bus. My memory is not entirely clear on this point."

19 Witness, did you understand what I just read?

20 A. Yes, completely. May I say something?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you first wait what questions will be put to

22 you on this issue, and then if there's any additional thing you would like

23 to tell the Court, you'll -- I'll give you the opportunity for that.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3675

1 Q. Witness, in the course of the few days following the incident with

2 the bus that you were driving, did you in the media or perhaps in some

3 other way learn that a person called Goran Vasic had been arrested and

4 that it was he who had fired at the bus?

5 A. I heard that Goran Vasic had been arrested, but I repeat, I do not

6 know who it was that fired the bullet but I know the direction that it

7 came from and it came from Nedzarici, that is from an area which was held

8 by Serbs.

9 Q. So you know that Goran Vasic was arrested in relation to the

10 incident?

11 A. I did not know he was arrested in relation to that incident, but I

12 knew that he was -- I know that he was arrested. It is today that I heard

13 here for the first time that it was Goran Vasic.

14 Q. Since it was on Bosnian television, do you have any knowledge as

15 to who it was who arrested him?

16 A. No, believe me, I don't.

17 Q. Did you learn whether it was the, if I may call it that, the

18 Bosnian police who arrested him or the Serb police?

19 A. I don't remember, believe me.

20 Q. Do you remember in what part of the city was he arrested?

21 A. I don't, but I heard that he lived on Kasindolska.

22 Q. Can you tell us where is that street, in what part of the city? I

23 assume it is Dobrinja, is it?

24 A. No, it is opposite Nedzarici, in the direction of Ilidza.

25 Q. Is that part of the city called anything special?

Page 3676

1 A. I wouldn't know.

2 Q. So we now heard from you that you did know at that time when the

3 incident happened that after a while, a man was arrested under the name of

4 Goran Vasic that had shot at the bus. Is that correct?

5 A. This is the first time today that I heard that it was Goran Vasic

6 who shot.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please indicate exactly the

8 source where the witness said that the arrest of Goran Vasic was an arrest

9 of a man that had shot at the bus? Because I heard the witness testify

10 several times that he knew about an arrest, but he did not know that this

11 arrest was in relation with a suspicion that he would have shot at the

12 bus. His testimony I think two, perhaps even three times, I'm not quite

13 sure about that, was quite clear as far as I see.

14 So I would like you to indicate the source exactly where the

15 witness's testimony was to the -- was what you indicated in your question.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleagues will

17 try and check it in the transcript, and if not, I will rephrase my

18 question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In fact,

21 I believe that there is a contradiction. We are finding ourselves on page

22 10, line 3 where the witness said that he heard that Goran Vasic had been

23 arrested, and certainly he said he didn't know whether that was in

24 relation to the shooting of the bus. But I think that he later said he

25 didn't even know the name and that he had only just found out. Thank you.

Page 3677

1 JUDGE ORIE: The --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

3 contradiction comes out very clearly on page 10, line 3 where the witness

4 said: "I heard that Goran Vasic had been arrested," and then on line 9,

5 he then says that this is the first time that he hears today that it was

6 Goran Vasic who shot the bus. So I believe that this is a contradiction

7 and I'm sure that Ms. Pilipovic will rephrase her question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think there's all reason to do that.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, when you heard that Goran Vasic was arrested, did you

11 know why he was arrested?

12 A. I heard that he was arrested because of what he did in Kasindolska

13 Street, but it is the first time that I hear today that it was him who had

14 shot at the bus.

15 Q. So Witness, you will allow for the possibility that the witness

16 who had stated that she heard on Bosnian television that he was arrested

17 because of the shooting on the bus, that you did not hear this?

18 A. I listened to the radio a lot, but this is the first time today

19 here that it was Goran Vasic who had shot at the bus. I heard that Goran

20 Vasic was arrested because of what he did in Kasindolska Street because he

21 killed Hakija Turajlic because of the murder of Hakija Turajlic.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I noticed that the Livenote transcript

25 system seems to have stopped working several questions back.

Page 3678

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see the same. I was looking on my -- on the

2 big screen and not on my laptop screen.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, someone is on their way to fix it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it -- you don't have Livenote on the --

5 well, it doesn't move any more. Let's just wait and see what the

6 technicians can do for us. Perhaps we could use the time, Madam

7 Registrar, to complete the rather confusing copies of the statement.

8 Would you have another page with last two digits 15 and 1-7?

9 [Technical difficulties]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please take care of the

11 distribution of ...

12 I'm still confident that by the end of the trial, we will be able

13 to be organised in the sense that a few copies of five pages could be

14 distributed without any double pages or missing pages. I'm still

15 confident.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

17 use this time while we're distributing the pages just to say that the

18 Defence doesn't always have the automatic distribution of copies, and this

19 is why we sometimes have problems. But we also hope that by the end of

20 the trial, everything will be going much more smoothly. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that the Livenote is functioning again.

22 We all have received the papers now in the order as we learned them to put

23 in kindergarten, and let's now proceed.

24 There is a problem in the Livenote, as I see it on page 12, line

25 10. The question to the witness was "Witness, when you heard that Goran

Page 3679

1 Vasic was arrested, did you know why he was arrested?" And then the

2 answer was, "I heard he was arrested because of what he did in Kasindolska

3 Street" although it does not appear, the name of the street, in Livenote,

4 "it is the first time I hear today that it was him who had shot at the

5 bus."

6 Ms. Pilipovic, that is where the Livenote ends, so I'd like to

7 invite you to resume your questioning at that very moment since I

8 remember, which is not in the Livenote, that the witness testified later

9 on that it was because of a murder that Mr. Vasic was arrested.

10 So that as a whole is not appearing in the Livenote. So would you

11 then please resume at that very moment when you asked him about the arrest

12 of Mr. Vasic.

13 I'm sorry for the technical problems, but we are on our feet

14 again.

15 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, could you tell us, when you heard that Goran Vasic was

18 arrested, did you find out that he had been arrested because he had shot

19 at the bus?

20 A. I'm repeating again. This is the first time that I hear today

21 that Goran Vasic was the one who had shot at the bus. I heard that

22 Goran Vasic was arrested because of the deed he did in Kasindolska Street

23 because the murder of Hakija Turajlic.

24 Q. So you're telling us that on Bosnian television, you did not hear

25 that Goran Vasic was arrested because of the shooting at the bus?

Page 3680

1 A. No, absolutely not.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness.

3 Yesterday, while you were examined by my learned colleague, on

4 page 76, line 6, it was 13.06 -- 13.16, you said it wasn't military police

5 in question but civilian police.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you telling us that you can make -- you can tell them apart,

8 the military police and the civilian police?

9 A. Yes, I can tell them apart.

10 Q. Why?

11 A. The military police was not around there, and I wouldn't even know

12 what they look like. Sometimes when I was a soldier I used to see them in

13 the barracks when I was a soldier of the JNA. But the local police would

14 wear just side arms, and you could see them everywhere, in peacetime as

15 well, and here today.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the fact that how the civilian police

17 was dressed?

18 A. I cannot quite remember. I believe they were perhaps green

19 uniforms. There were all kinds of uniforms, a little mix. They didn't

20 have real uniforms.

21 Q. You say that they had weapons.

22 A. Probably officially issued weapons. Every policeman had official

23 weapons.

24 Q. Do you know whether in 1992, 1993, or 1994 in Sarajevo, civilian

25 police, as you say, were on the front lines, were present on the front

Page 3681

1 lines?

2 A. No.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

4 like to show the witness photograph C, and this is 4296 Prosecution

5 exhibit.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you put on the ELMO photograph C,

7 which number ends with 4296.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, you have before you photograph marked C. Could you look

10 at this photograph and tell us about this part which is marked in red.

11 Yesterday, I understood that you said that this is where the barricades

12 were.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us what these barricades were made from?

15 A. These were anti-sniping barricades, and they were made of old tin

16 sheeting, old buses, old lorries. There were some blankets there as well.

17 Q. What was the height of the barricades?

18 A. The height of the barricades was about 3 to 4 metres.

19 Q. Before the moment -- the incident in question, how often did you

20 come to this intersection at your starting bus stop?

21 A. I never came before the war, when I was driving a trolley bus.

22 This is where the trolley bus used to drive. And then during the war --

23 before the war, I never came there.

24 Q. Could you tell us on this photograph in this part that -- where

25 you had marked the circle and the barricades, in relation to the

Page 3682












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Page 3683

1 barricades, how far away from there was the front line? Do you know

2 anything about that?

3 A. I don't know because of these buildings how far exactly the front

4 lines were. This is Dobrinja II, so it would then be adjoining the

5 Nedzarici. I don't know how far the front line of the BH army was, but I

6 am certain it went on into -- this was adjoining the Nedzarici settlement.

7 Q. You told us that the bullet had come from the direction of these

8 two houses that we can see?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know whether a part of Nedzarici with such small houses

11 were under the control of the BH army?

12 A. Maybe perhaps these first houses, but these two houses I don't

13 know. I don't know whether they were there. I don't know where the lines

14 were.

15 Q. You said the bullet had come -- the shot had come from the faculty

16 of theology.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us on what basis do you claim that the bullet had

19 come from there?

20 A. At the intersection where I was standing, you can see the faculty

21 of theology.

22 Q. Could you tell us how far in relation to the intersection is the

23 faculty of theology from that place?

24 A. I'm not quite sure. I cannot give you an estimate. But perhaps

25 600, 700 metres approximately.

Page 3684

1 Q. Could you tell us about the hills that we can see on the

2 photograph behind these lower houses, or what are these hills? Can you

3 tell us that? Is that a part of a mountain or a hill? Do you know?

4 A. That's quite far. That's outside of Sarajevo. I cannot recognise

5 it. From Nedzarici, there's no mountain so you can see quite far away in

6 this part.

7 Q. Witness, could you tell us about the intersection where you were

8 turning your bus as your terminus and your first stop, what are the

9 streets that cross there?

10 A. From the direction I came from, on one side is the street of

11 Omladinskih Brigada, and the on the other side is the street of Nikole

12 Demonje. The street where the bullet had come from, just give me a

13 moment, it was before called avenue, avena of something. It used to have

14 a different name.

15 Q. If I tell you this is now the Bulevar of the Defenders of

16 Dobrinja, would you agree with me?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

19 like to show the witness a map, a part of a map of town of the Dobrinja

20 area so that he can mark on the map exactly where the stop was as well as

21 where the faculty of theology was.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Mr. Usher, could you assist

23 Ms. Pilipovic.

24 Mr. Usher, since the witness is asked to do some markings, would

25 you please put the map on the ELMO, return the photo to Madam Registrar.

Page 3685

1 Yes, perhaps you could turn the ELMO in such a way that the witness can do

2 whatever marking is necessary from where he sits. And would you please

3 provide him with a black marker.

4 And could we please zoom in a bit on the ELMO because ... Would

5 you please put it a bit higher, Mr. Usher. A bit to the left. Yes.

6 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness, could you identify for us on this map which part of town

9 we have here?

10 A. Nedzarici.

11 Q. Could you tell us in this part where it says Nedzarici, could you

12 identify for us the place that you say was the faculty of theology?

13 A. It isn't very clear, but I will do my best.

14 Q. I'd like you to take a black marker pen, and if you can mark that

15 place, circle it, and put number "1" where the faculty of theology is.

16 A. I cannot see. Can I use this map?

17 Q. Yes, Witness. I gave you that map to circle and tell us where the

18 place is. As soon as you mark it, could you please put it on the ELMO so

19 we can all see?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please put the map on the ELMO

21 so we can see on our screen Mr. Grabovica what you're doing. So the map

22 is now on the ELMO, the machine to your right-hand side. Just forget

23 about your screen in front of you and concentrate on the map as it is to

24 your right.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

Page 3686

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you tell us what you've just circled.

3 A. The first place that I circled was the place where I had stopped

4 with the bus.

5 Q. Could you please put number "1" next to it.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And the second place you circled is the faculty of theology. Put

8 number "2."

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Could you tell us in relation to place number 1, looking at place

11 number 2, what is -- what kind of buildings are there that are towards the

12 faculty of theology?

13 A. These are private houses that are a bit lower.

14 Q. Could you tell us the place that you marked number 1 and where

15 you've circled, what part of Dobrinja is this?

16 A. This is the centre of Dobrinja.

17 Q. Looking towards the faculty of theology, which parts of the

18 Dobrinja we can see before you get to Nedzarici?

19 A. Dobrinja II, and Dobrinja III.

20 Q. Could you please mark on the map, looking towards place number 1

21 and place number 2, could you mark where Dobrinja II is and where Dobrinja

22 III is.

23 A. Yes.

24 I will mark with numbers "2" and "3."

25 JUDGE ORIE: That is a bit confusing as a matter of fact. Would

Page 3687

1 you please do them as number "2" with an asterisk and number "3" with an

2 asterisk otherwise we have two numbers "2" on the map.

3 Yes, please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So for the transcript, numbers 2 and 3 with asterisk, the witness

6 marked Dobrinja II and Dobrinja III.

7 As far as we can see on this map, in relation to the faculty of

8 theology, from point 1 to point 2, we can see the Dobrinja II and Dobrinja

9 III settlements. Could you tell us the type of buildings which existed in

10 Dobrinja II and Dobrinja III? Are these apartment blocks or are these

11 family houses?

12 A. On both sides, there are apartment blocks. And between Dobrinja

13 II and Dobrinja III is former street called Avenue, and this is the

14 direction between these two series of apartment blocks which is not

15 covered by any kinds of houses.

16 Q. Could you tell us, Witness, and mark for us on this map with a

17 black line where, according to you, the settlement of Nedzarici begins

18 with family houses, private houses?

19 A. I can try. I will put a straight line.

20 Q. Could you tell us the name of the street, please.

21 A. I'm not quite sure what the name of the street is, but further

22 down is former Branislava Nusica Street, Bore Draskovica Street.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 You told us that in 1992, on the 15th of April, you stopped

25 driving a trolley bus?

Page 3688

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. From then on, until the moment that you started to drive again in

3 1994, when you started to drive a bus this time, were you still employed

4 at your company?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So the period from 1992 until 1994 you did not work?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Could you tell us, did you have a work obligation regardless of

9 the fact that the company wasn't working?

10 A. I had a work obligation, and I was also a military conscript.

11 Q. So in that period from 1992 to 1994, you were a soldier?

12 A. I was in the logistics.

13 Q. Could you tell us which unit this was?

14 A. This was a -- some kind of 105th.

15 Q. Was this 105th Motorised Brigade?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell us this 105th Motorised Brigade, was it based in

18 Dobrinja?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Where was the headquarters of the 105th Motorised Brigade, in

21 which part of the town?

22 A. I hope you'll believe me when I say I do not know where that was.

23 Q. And whilst you were a member of the 105th Motorised Brigade, were

24 you ever on the front line?

25 A. No.

Page 3689

1 Q. Can you tell us how much time did you spend in your unit?

2 A. One day, and then I would have two days off.

3 Q. And that one day when you were, to put it that way, in your unit,

4 does that mean the whole day and the whole night?

5 A. No, only one day.

6 Q. Can you tell us where did other members of your unit sleep at the

7 time when they were on the front lines?

8 A. They would spend a day and a night at the front line, and then

9 they would be sleeping two days and two nights.

10 Q. Can you tell us in what parts of the city were the front lines of

11 the 105th Motorised?

12 A. In Gromolj in the lower part of Poljine.

13 Q. Can you tell us which municipality is that?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we could not hear the witness's answer

15 because the day of the counsel and of the witness overlap.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could I ask you not to answer the question when

17 the screen is still moving because the interpreters first have to

18 translate. And if you immediately answer, they cannot do it.

19 Could you please repeat the answer, and if necessary,

20 Ms. Pilipovic will put the question to you again, to the last question.

21 A. Can you repeat the last question.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you tell us how long was the front line in the part of the

24 city where the 105th Motorised Brigade was deployed?

25 A. Localities of Gromolj, Glave, Brekin Potok.

Page 3690

1 Q. And whilst you were with the 105th Motorised Brigade, where did

2 the other members of the brigade sleep?

3 A. They slept at home.

4 Q. Can you tell us how many -- how strong was the 105th Motorised

5 Brigade?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Can you tell me if you were promoted or did you acquire a rank

8 whilst you were a member of the 105th Motorised Brigade?

9 A. No.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just consult

11 with my colleague, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, you told us that you were in the logistics. Can you tell

15 us where did you come for work? I suppose you had a workplace somewhere.

16 Can you tell us what street and what building?

17 A. The street, Saburina Street in the elementary school. That is

18 where the logistics of the 105th Motorised Brigade was housed.

19 Q. How many of you were in that elementary school?

20 A. We were about 50 there.

21 Q. Can you tell us what did you wear?

22 A. We wore civilian clothes.

23 Q. Did you have any weapons?

24 A. No, we did not.

25 Q. Now, can you tell us when you went to work, what did you wear and

Page 3691












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Page 3692

1 did you have a weapon?

2 A. I said I was in civilian clothes, never put on a uniform. I never

3 had a weapon.

4 Q. One more question: Can you answer me, did you have some ID or

5 something else to tell you apart, which you could show that -- to prove

6 that you were a member of the 105th Motorised Brigade?

7 A. At that time, we had the Territorial Defence, so that we had the

8 TO IDs.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. 1992 and 1993.

11 Q. And after that?

12 A. Later on, units were formed, and I was assigned to a labour duty,

13 rather than to a workplace that I had before the war.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

15 more questions. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Just a couple of brief questions, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

21 Q. Mr. Grabovica, I believe yesterday, as reflected in the Livenote

22 transcript, page 75, lines 3 and 4, you stated that all the passengers on

23 the bus were women. Do you remember saying that?

24 A. Well, I do remember it. For the most part it was women. There

25 could have been a man, perhaps two, but for the most part it was women.

Page 3693

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Grabovica. No further questions.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more additional questions

4 to you.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Witness, I believe I heard you say, and I will quote in English,

8 [In English] ... "Was to drive civilians only."

9 [Interpretation] Could you deny the military to board the bus?

10 A. I could not deny admission to anyone, but the military did not use

11 the buses. If there were any men on those buses, they would be in

12 civilian clothes.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said also, and I

14 quote: [In English] "Was the military police, or rather the local civilian

15 police." [No Interpretation] [In English] "Military police and local

16 civilian police"?

17 A. Well, I suppose that there is a difference, but I never came

18 across the military police. I only came across civilian police, those

19 same -- the same police that I come across today.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Has there ever been an exchange

21 of fire between the police near the bus stop and the police -- and the

22 snipers in other parts?

23 A. While I was there, when I was there, when I drove my bus there, I

24 never saw any such exchange.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, please, my last

Page 3694

1 question has to do with the bus coming to the stop. I believe you marked

2 in the videocassette that the bus has passed and stopped after the

3 pedestrian crossing. And on the photograph, it seemed to me that the stop

4 is before the crossing. And I'll explain it if you like. On the

5 videotape, you marked the front part of the bus which has passed, or

6 rather which was at the intersection. On the photograph, it is slightly

7 at the back. Is that indeed the exact spot where the stop, or rather is

8 it the photograph which is correct or is it the tape which is correct

9 because they are marked slightly differently?

10 A. I made a turn at that intersection to go back to the terminal.

11 That is, at this intersection, I had to make a U-turn, and I was standing

12 where I pointed. And this is where the bus was.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But it is beyond the place

14 marked on the photograph?

15 A. The bus -- more than half of the bus was at the intersection, that

16 is, the bus was -- the bigger part of the bus was in the intersection.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And the bus stops?

18 A. Well, there were no regular bus stops. Wherever there were groups

19 of people who were waiting, we would stop. And people stopped to wait for

20 the bus at different places that were shielded. We did not have any

21 regular bus stops because of security reasons.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Grabovica, also one question for you: As far as

24 I understand, in your first statement given to the investigators of the

25 Prosecutor's Office, you mentioned the day of the 17th of May. Then in

Page 3695

1 your second statement, if I do understand it well, you mentioned the month

2 of May. And during testimony in this Court, you said it was the 25th of

3 May that the incident happened.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Did anyone help you in refreshing your recollection

6 as far as the 25th of May is concerned? Have there been any suggestions

7 or did someone help you in refreshing your memory as far as the date is

8 concerned prior to giving testimony in this court?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us how you were helped to find the day

11 of the 25th of May which was part of your testimony in this Court?

12 A. When your investigators asked me about the registration plates, I

13 said they were the old ones.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And could you please tell us what is the relation

15 between old registration plates and exactly the 25th of May?

16 A. I went to my company to check about the plates, and they told me

17 that the incident had happened on the 25th of May.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did they explain to you how they could locate this

19 incident in time exactly on the 25th of May?

20 A. Well, in my company, they keep records about the bus. There's the

21 travel order and everything else.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand you well that it's on the basis of

23 the records in your company of which the information has been given to you

24 at your request that you testify that it was on the 25th of May?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3696

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clear answer in this respect.

2 Mr. Grabovica, you've answered all the questions put to you by

3 both the parties and by the Chamber. I'd like to thank you very much for

4 coming to The Hague, which is quite a journey, as we all are aware of.

5 You also understand that it is very important for this Court to

6 hear the answers to the questions put by parties and by the Chamber itself

7 since we need these answers to prepare the decisions we'll have to make.

8 Coming to The Hague means assisting the Court in performing this task.

9 Thank you very much for having come to The Hague, and I wish you a safe

10 journey home again.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. If necessary,

12 if there are more questions, I am quite willing to answer them. I saw

13 quite a great deal. There were many other incidents on the buses. I can

14 testify about all that I saw and all that I can remember.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine. You have been called by the

16 Prosecution. The Prosecution has asked you the questions they wanted to

17 ask you, and I can imagine that you could tell us a lot more about what

18 happened in these years. But we leave it to the parties to find out what

19 questions they would put to you. And you'll be aware that there are a lot

20 of other witnesses who will testify on other events that happened in those

21 years. So thank you very much.

22 Mr. Usher, could you please lead the witness out of the courtroom.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [Witness withdrew]

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3697

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we still have to decide upon the admission into

2 evidence. Let's first start with the Prosecution documents. As far as I

3 can see, we started with the video being shown to the witness. Madam

4 Registrar, would you have a P number for that? I see apart from the usual

5 objections, we'll admit it into evidence.

6 THE REGISTRAR: The video that was shown yesterday by the

7 Prosecution is P3280M.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next is the 360 degree photograph on the

9 CD Rom.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That exhibit is P3279M.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a set of three photos.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The set of three photos are P3274A, B, and C.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I think these are the -- are there any difficulties?

14 I think we usually, if it's in the transcript, if a series of photos has

15 got one number as it is now, we usually only give this one number. But

16 it's clear from the transcript that this number covers three photos.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It does.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I see the Defence conferring but doesn't result in

19 any ...

20 Then, I think these were the Prosecution documents. And then we

21 have the Defence tendered the statement of a witness. I see the

22 Prosecution is conferring. Will this result in ...

23 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no objections to that document,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Bench, however, has some problems with it.

Page 3698

1 And I can tell you why. Our usual procedure is that we read part of the

2 previous statements. A specific part has been read to the witness. The

3 last line was of this statement on this issue: "My memory is not

4 entirely clear on this point." The witness has been confronted with this

5 part of the statement. None of the other parts of the statement have been

6 part of the testimony. So I think, according to our usual procedure,

7 everything the witness is confronted with is in the transcript, has been

8 read to it. And I do not see at this moment that there's any real

9 contradiction apart from that the person who gave the previous statement

10 has seen something on television which the witness has said he has not

11 seen on television and gives a different reason for the arrest of a

12 certain Mr. Vasic.

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

15 specific reason for which the Defence believes that this document should

16 be admitted into its entirety, as a whole, is as follows: The witness

17 stated that the woman called B succumbed to the injuries received in that

18 attack, if I remember him well, one day later or shortly afterwards.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness had not testified that the lady was

20 dead. The witness has testified that he heard the next day that the lady

21 succumbed, as it is in the English translation.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Therefore, this

24 witness said that woman B had succumbed to the wounds one or two days

25 later, and it is important for the credibility to show that this same

Page 3699

1 person B was obviously alive and perfectly healthy because she could

2 testify before the -- and sign her statement with her own hand. And

3 therefore, the statement has a date and admitted so that it could be

4 examined so that one could check the credibility of the witness whom we

5 have just heard because obviously one -- one who has succumbed cannot sign

6 such a statement as this witness did.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give me time to think, Mr. --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I merely wanted to say for the

10 transcript --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll just read again the transcript. One

12 moment, please.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is for the transcript,

14 what I just said was succubus and not succumbed. There is a very slight

15 difference between the two.

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Maybe I could read the line 15, page 6. The

17 answer was: "The next day, I learned that person B had succumbed."

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you think it's to be necessary

19 to tender this whole statement as evidence that Mrs. B, although I do not

20 for sure know that it's the same, but it's very likely that it's the same

21 person. I didn't hear any questions asked about it. Let's just assume,

22 then, that Mrs. B was one of the passengers in the bus, is there any

23 misunderstanding between the parties that Mrs. B did not die from this

24 incident? As far as I can provisionally assess the evidence given before,

25 where it is in evidence that the passengers who were injured during this

Page 3700












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3701

1 incident left hospital after ten days of treatment. Is there any -- is it

2 the Prosecution's case that Mrs. B died?

3 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President. And in fact, the wording of the

4 schedule in the indictment makes it clear that the woman was allegedly

5 wounded and not killed.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So for the establishment of the fact that

7 Mrs. B died, there is no necessity whatsoever to admit this document into

8 evidence. As far as the reliability of the witness statement is

9 concerned, I do not see whether the mere testimony that Mr. Grabovica was

10 told that Mrs. B died would make it unreliable. It is in no saying that

11 he could have been told something which did not happen, and it's among the

12 parties; there's no dispute about whether Mrs. B was alive. So for that

13 reason, there is no reason to admit this document into evidence.

14 And there's another reason which would oppose against admitting it

15 into evidence, because it would admit into evidence a lot of statements

16 which have not been the subject of the examination in this Court. We

17 would have to read all the statement. Whatever questions may come up as

18 far as the other parts of the statements are concerned, because if we

19 admit it into evidence, well, we would have it, we would look at it.

20 While the relevant part has been read literally to the witness. So for

21 these reasons we will not admit the document into evidence.

22 Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Having conferred, we believe

24 that it would be quite convenient, and we thank the Chamber for the

25 decision it has taken.

Page 3702

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. So then we have only as a

2 remaining document tendered by the Defence the map which has been marked

3 by the witness during his testimony. And that would be, Madam Registrar?

4 THE REGISTRAR: The next number for the Defence's exhibit would be

5 D46.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's D46. May I ask the Defence next time if they

7 give a map to a witness, to use a copy without any markings on it.

8 Because as you'll see, there are some markings already on this map. And

9 it's unintended, of course. If there's an intended -- I see some circles

10 around, or you gave us another one. I'll tell you exactly where they

11 were. You'll see that around Stup -- you'll see that about around the PTT

12 building, there's a circle. So whenever you have a ...

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a very faint

14 trace, Mr. President. I did not see it. You have a better sight

15 obviously.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... done by

17 mistake. Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry, I did not see it at

19 all. If we can find another map during the interval, then we shall copy

20 it. Otherwise, we'll have to use it. But this is a poor copy. Thank you

21 very much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. I'm quite convinced of your

23 intention to not create any confusion.

24 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

Page 3703

1 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think it's up to the Prosecution to

3 call its next witness, which will be?

4 MR. IERACE: Faruk Kadric, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Usher, would you bring the witness

6 into the courtroom.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, can you hear me in a language you

9 understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, at the beginning of your testimony, the

12 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration.

13 The text of this declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher,

14 and I invite you to make that declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Kadric. Please be seated.

18 Mr. Kadric, you have been called as a witness by the Prosecution.

19 That means that you'll first be examined by Mr. Ierace, counsel for the

20 Prosecution. Then you'll be examined by counsel for the Defence; and if

21 there are any additional questions, the Bench will put them to you as

22 well.

23 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3704

1 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

2 Q. Sir, is your name Faruk Kadric?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you born on the 22nd of February, 1977?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What is your birthdate?

7 A. 22 of October, 1977.

8 Q. What is the name of your father?

9 A. Fajko.

10 Q. In 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes. After the beginning of the war.

12 Q. Yes. Did you continue to live in Sarajevo throughout the war?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In 1993, were you going to school?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. During 1993, was there an incident when you were shot?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was the date when that happened?

19 A. It was on the 4th of October, 1993.

20 Q. Having regard to your birthdate, were you aged 15 on that date?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you with anyone when you were shot?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was that?

25 A. I was with my father.

Page 3705

1 Q. What were you and your father doing?

2 A. We were in a car. We were driving.

3 Q. What type of vehicle was it?

4 A. It is a vehicle that is used to transport meat.

5 Q. How big was the vehicle?

6 A. About 2 tonnes. It can carry about 2 tonnes.

7 Q. According to the transcript in English, a little while ago you

8 said we were in a car. Were you in a car?

9 A. In the car.

10 Q. All right. Could you please describe the vehicle.

11 A. The vehicle is intended to transport meat, because we were in a

12 meat processing. And it has three seats. I don't know what else to say

13 about the vehicle.

14 Q. What size was the vehicle in terms of tonnes?

15 A. You mean the weight, the weight of the vehicle or just its

16 carrying capacity?

17 Q. Yes, the weight.

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. In terms of its carrying capacity, what was its weight?

20 A. I think about 2 or 3 tonnes.

21 Q. All right. You said that it had three seats. Were the three

22 seats alongside each other or were some in the front and some in the back?

23 A. No, it was one next to each other.

24 Q. What was behind the three seats?

25 A. A cabin.

Page 3706

1 Q. Were the seats -- all right. Was there any writing on the side of

2 the vehicle?

3 A. Yes, it said Mesnica, butchers.

4 Q. Do you understand the word "truck"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was it a truck or a car?

7 A. A truck.

8 Q. Now, you said that you were with your father in that vehicle. Was

9 the vehicle transporting anything at the time that you were shot?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was that?

12 A. Flour.

13 Q. And whereabouts were you at the time that you were shot?

14 A. We were at the intersection of the 10th Transversal, and the Aleja

15 Branka Bujica Street.

16 Q. In what part of Sarajevo was that?

17 A. Nedzarici.

18 Q. Whereabouts were you going to?

19 A. We were taking the flour to the local commune, to the Civilian

20 Protection.

21 Q. What is the nature of the intersection where you were shot? Is it

22 a T-intersection or a cross intersection?

23 A. I don't know how to explain it.

24 Q. All right. As you approached the intersection, did you notice if

25 there were any people around?

Page 3707

1 A. There were no people around. There was an UNPROFOR APC which was

2 located on my right side. But it wasn't quite at the intersection. It

3 was a little further away from the intersection.

4 Q. Did the APC have any markings on it to indicate that it was


6 A. Yes, yes. It said "UNPROFOR" in large black letters, it said

7 "UN".

8 Q. You said that there were three seats. And those seats were in a

9 row. Were you sitting next to the passenger window or in the middle seat?

10 A. I was sitting by the right window. The middle seat was empty; and

11 on the left-hand side seat was my father who was driving the vehicle.

12 Q. What happened as you crossed the intersection?

13 A. I heard a shot. And after that, I only remember that I fell on

14 this middle seat which was on my left side. After that, what I can

15 remember is a soldier, a UN soldier, who was taking a cap off his head,

16 and he put it here on my wound.

17 Q. Could you point to where your wound was, please.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, Mr. President, the witness

20 indicates the right side of his neck.

21 Do you remember whether the passenger window, that is the window

22 immediately on your right, was up or down or somewhere in between?

23 A. It was up.

24 Q. You said that you heard a shot.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3708

1 Q. From what direction did you hear the shot?

2 A. I heard the shot coming from the right side.

3 Q. All right. After you received some assistance from the UN

4 soldier, what is the next thing that you remember?

5 A. I remember when I was taken out of the APC, because where the

6 hospital -- where the UNPROFOR hospital was, there was some lights that

7 you could not see from the outside because of their reflection. I could

8 only see that I was being taken on a stretcher, and I don't remember

9 anything further.

10 Q. Following the injury, did you receive treatment for a period of

11 time in a Sarajevo hospital?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Which hospital?

14 A. It was the traumatology clinic, the neurosurgery.

15 Q. What period of time did you stay in hospital in Sarajevo,

16 approximately?

17 A. About a month.

18 Q. Did you receive any further medical treatment after you were

19 discharged from hospital in Sarajevo?

20 A. At that time, I did not. But there was a proposal that I should

21 go and have the operation abroad.

22 Q. Did you travel abroad for medical purposes related to your injury?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Where did you go?

25 A. I went to the United Arab Emirates.

Page 3709












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3710

1 Q. For what period of time did you receive medical treatment in the

2 United Arab Emirates?

3 A. About 19 months.

4 MR. IERACE: I ask, Mr. President, the witness be shown

5 Exhibit P1781.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is a medical record which has

8 attached to it an English translation.

9 Q. Do you recognise the document in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is it?

12 A. Letter of discharge from the hospital.

13 Q. Does it relate to you and this injury?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On the bottom half of the page, I think there is a section which

16 is titled "case history." Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I think the second sentence reads: "He was wounded on 4 October,

19 1993 by a fragmentation bullet in the neck." Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was that indeed the date that you were injured?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It refers to a fragmentation bullet. Was there one part of a

24 bullet in your body or more than one part?

25 A. More than one part.

Page 3711

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be show

2 Exhibit P1701, which comprises three colour photographs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, would you assist Mr. Ierace.


5 Q. Do you recognise the three photographs in front of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are they indeed three x-rays?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are they of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In what country were they taken, in what state?

12 A. In the United Arab Emirates.

13 Q. Do the x-rays bear a date on which they were taken?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is that date?

16 A. 16th of October, 1994.

17 Q. Does that date appear in the bottom -- I'll withdraw that. Could

18 you please place the first of those photographs on the machine to your

19 right with the assistance of the court usher.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you.

21 Q. Would you please use the middle pointer and point to that part of

22 the x-ray which contains the date.

23 Point to the actual photograph to your right, not on the screen.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please turn the ELMO a bit so

25 that the witness ...

Page 3712

1 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the photograph can be moved slightly up the

2 ELMO so we that can see the relevant part.

3 Could the photograph be moved further up the machine. Thank you.

4 Q. Could you point to the date again, please.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. All right. And indeed. Does the date appear back to front?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, coming back to the time that you were shot, what time of day

9 was it when it happened?

10 A. It was between 11.00 and 11.30. More precisely, quarter past

11 11.00.

12 Q. What was the weather like at that time?

13 A. It was -- the weather was good. It was fine weather.

14 Q. What clothes were you wearing?

15 A. I had trousers and a T-shirt. Not a T-shirt, but a sweat shirt, a

16 long-sleeved shirt as I have now on.

17 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown a map. Mr. President, I

18 propose to give the witness a copy of the map which is P3644, the one that

19 I have here, to be given to him. It's therefore marked P3644.FK. I also

20 have copies for the Bench and my learned colleagues. Three for the Bench

21 and two for the Defence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you certainly are aware that FK, if we

23 look at the list of witnesses, might be a similar one. I don't know

24 whether you intend to tender perhaps with the next witness as well a

25 similar map, and then FK would not ...

Page 3713

1 MR. IERACE: I appreciate Your Honour's point, Mr. President.

2 Perhaps it should have a different notation. FK1, perhaps.


4 MR. IERACE: That's for the witness. Thank you.

5 Please, I would be grateful it the witness could have the map.

6 Q. But before I ask you questions about the map, I will ask you some

7 more questions about the x-rays. Could you please look at the x-ray that

8 is on the ELMO, that is the photograph to your right. What part of your

9 body appears in that x-ray?

10 A. My neck.

11 Q. On the x-ray one sees three or four pieces which are irregularly

12 shaped and which appear in a light blue colour. As a result of

13 conversations with your doctors, do you know what they are?

14 A. These are parts of the fragmentation bullet.

15 Q. Are any parts of the bullet still in your neck?

16 A. All of these fragments that you can see on the x-ray are still

17 lodged in my neck.

18 Q. Have your doctors given you an explanation as to why they have not

19 been removed?

20 A. Because they can't take it out, because through the neck, all of

21 these nerves go through the neck. And there is a possibility if I had

22 surgery that I would end up paralyzed.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. IERACE: With the assistance of the usher, could the second

25 photograph now be placed on the ELMO. For the benefit of the transcript,

Page 3714

1 that's an x-ray which appears to show a mouth.

2 Q. As you understand it, is that also an x-ray of you, in particular

3 showing your jaw area and neck?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I think on the right side of the x-ray, in the vicinity of the

6 vertebrae, we see four irregular shaped items in a similar pattern to what

7 appears in the first x-ray. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. And are there any other fragment parts which appear in

10 that x-ray, to your knowledge, as a result of talking with your doctors?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please point to the other fragments.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, Mr. President, the

15 witness points to some objects which appear beneath the -- in the lower

16 jaw beneath the teeth, which is slightly to the right of centre of the

17 x-ray.

18 Perhaps the third x-ray could now be placed on the ELMO.

19 Q. As a result of conversations with your doctors, do you understand

20 the third x-ray to also depict your neck?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Does it also show the fragments which remain in that part of your

23 body?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. IERACE: That can be removed.

Page 3715

1 Q. Could you please now look at the map which is to your left. Would

2 you open it up and firstly tell us if you recognise it as being a map of

3 Sarajevo.

4 A. Yes, that's right. That is a map of the city of Sarajevo.

5 Q. All right. If you are able to, would you find the place where you

6 were shot, and then place that part of the map with the assistance of the

7 usher on the ELMO.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. All right. Would you please take a blue marker pen and place a

10 cross on the position where you were shot.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Would you now please place an arrow indicating the direction in

13 which you were travelling at the time you were shot?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Were there any barricades on that intersection?

17 A. Yes, but a very small one. It was just a container, a container

18 like those that are mounted on a -- on delivery vans. Could have been

19 about 5 metres long, and it was put there that day. Before that, there

20 were no barricades there.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. Because we used to use the same street before, and I -- prior to

23 that, I never noticed that barricade there.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether other civilians had been

25 shot in that area, that is, the area of the intersection?

Page 3716

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know whether any civilians were shot at that intersection

3 either shortly before or after you were shot?

4 A. What I know is that same day, a woman was hit there, before I was,

5 and that was early in the morning.

6 Q. How did you come to know that?

7 A. My mother's fellow worker who works in a bakery called this

8 morning and said that I shouldn't go to school because her fellow worker

9 had been killed that very morning at that place.

10 Q. If you had gone to school that day, would you have had to pass

11 that same intersection?

12 A. Well, I would have -- yes, I could take this intersection, and

13 there was also another route which I could have used. But it was also

14 exposed to sniper fire.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes evidence in

16 chief.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

18 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

19 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: I apologise. For the assistance of the Trial

21 Chamber, if it's not already apparently, I should indicate that this

22 evidence relates to scheduled sniping incident number 13. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The Defence is ready,

25 and we have already understood it was incident number 13. And on the of

Page 3717

1 that, we shall be asking you the following questions.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 Q. Good morning, Witness. Thank you for coming here. Just a moment

4 ago, you said at the beginning of your examination that you were 15 at the

5 time of the accident. And wouldn't it be as a matter of fact exact to say

6 that you were practically 16?

7 A. I was 15. I was to turn 16 on the 22nd of October.

8 Q. Thank you. Yes, I was asking you, thank you very much for the

9 interpretation. Yes, I asked you that because we have two dates of your

10 birth, and you were born indeed in October 1977. Is that it, the 22nd of

11 October? Is that your correct date of birth?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Thank you very much for your answer.

14 Witness, at that time, what was the profession of your father?

15 A. He was a driver.

16 Q. He was a self-employed driver?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. I understand that you don't understand.

19 Did your father -- was your father self-employed? Was he in the

20 private sector at the time?

21 A. You mean when that happened or before that?

22 Q. I am saying at the time.

23 A. He was working for the Civil Defence.

24 Q. And therefore, who was his employer? Was it the Civil Defence?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3718












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3719

1 Q. And what -- Witness, what do you mean by Civil Defence? What is

2 that?

3 A. At that time, the Civil Defence took care of people because in the

4 beginning, we had very small stock, so that people were paying for some

5 flour. And that day, we had gone to bring some flour to the Civil Defence

6 for which people had paid in advance.

7 Q. Witness, those who had paid for it in advance, who was that?

8 A. I wouldn't know.

9 Q. Witness, you do not know what was your point of destination, point

10 of delivery that day?

11 A. I know very well where we were going, but I do not who it was to

12 be delivered to. I don't know the names of people. I know that people

13 would come to get this flour, to take it away.

14 Q. Very well. So, Witness, where were you going? May I ask you

15 that.

16 A. We were going to the place where the Civil Defence was.

17 Q. And the Civil Defence, this is the Civil Defence, is it part of

18 the army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you said the Civil Defence is not the army; your father was not

21 employed by the army?

22 A. No, he did not.

23 Q. I asked you this question very clearly. You understood it very

24 well. Will you please look up an exhibit which was already shown you, and

25 this is 5 -- 1701, and one for the original language, and this is the

Page 3720

1 Serbian language. I believe 1781, and may it be shown to the witness,

2 please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the one.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it is very clear.

5 Q. Witness, you have before you a document, and I believe you have a

6 document in the language which you manage to read. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you for your answer.

9 Witness, you just told me that your father was not a member of the

10 army. Will you then please read in your language, and the interpreters

11 will interpret, what it says in the box. And I hope I will be able to

12 find it to show it, in the box which refers to the insurance and the

13 organisation, the insurance organisation. It is -- just a moment. It is

14 1781, Exhibit 1781, and it is the seventh box on the left-hand side of the

15 document.

16 Will you tell us, Witness, what you see there?

17 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 5th Motorised Brigade.

18 Q. Then, Witness, can you explain it to me why, if your father was

19 not, as you told us, in the army, why was his insurance paid, why was the

20 5th Motorised Brigade of the BH army responsible for his insurance?

21 A. Sir, I have to ask you this: We were talking about what happened

22 to me. You did not ask me if my father was in the army or not. You were

23 talking about my wounding that day, what he was doing that day.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, if a question is put to you, you told

25 this Court that your father was in the Civil Defence, not being a part of

Page 3721

1 the army. The Defence is entitled to ask you any questions about that.

2 Just answer them. There's no need of opposing against the question. You

3 just answer it. And the question was whether you have an explanation for

4 the fact that although you said your father was not a member of the army,

5 on this document it is stated that the work organisation of the holder of

6 the insurance was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 5th Motorised

7 Brigade.

8 So if you have an explanation for that, give it. If you don't

9 know, tell us. Please answer the question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 A. I don't.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I heard that you didn't know, and I do not know whether that means

13 that you don't have an answer or that you do not know.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, don't you know or don't you have an

15 explanation for that or don't you want to tell us the explanation? What

16 was your answer exactly?

17 A. I do not know where this here came from. I really don't.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that you have no explanation for this?

19 Is that right, my understanding?

20 A. Right.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Very well, Witness. Before you came to the courtroom, you saw

24 this document which came from the clinical centre in Sarajevo, from the

25 Sarajevo university?

Page 3722

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness, you didn't -- didn't you ever object to this fact that

3 the BH army, or more specifically, the 5th Motorised Brigade was mentioned

4 here as the organisation providing the insurance?

5 A. I don't understand your question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The question is, since it is indicated on this

7 document that the holder of the insurance belonged to the organisation the

8 BH army 5th Motorised Brigade, whether you ever protested at whatever

9 place against this entry in this form.

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

13 see that the Chamber is asking questions which are much clearer than

14 mine. But I will try to do that.

15 Q. Witness, have then said when you read this document and in the

16 absence of your objection, doesn't it mean that at the time of the

17 incident, your father was a member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

18 is, the 5th Motorised Brigade?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you for the clarity of your answer.

21 Witness, shouldn't you also admit that at the time of the

22 incident, your father was about to deliver certain produce for the army,

23 or more specifically, perhaps for the 5th Motorised Brigade?

24 A. No, he wasn't about to deliver this produce for the army.

25 Q. And he was to deliver it to the Territorial Defence. Is that it?

Page 3723

1 A. He was delivering --

2 Q. Will you please repeat your answer for the transcript.

3 A. Well, he was taking this produce to the Civil Defence in his own

4 vehicle, that is, that truck was private property. It did not serve the

5 Civil Defence or the army or anyone else.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

7 At that time of the incident which we are placing in October 1993,

8 can I then deduce from your answer that at the same time there were

9 parallelly two organisations, the army on one hand and the Civil Defence

10 on the other. Is that it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you know concretely where was the Civil Defence that your

13 father was to deliver goods, where was its seat?

14 A. It was the property of the heating station in Sarajevo, the

15 heating plant in Sarajevo, and the Civil Defence was there.

16 Q. Can you give us the address, Witness?

17 A. Well, I don't know it.

18 Q. Witness, was that the first time that you were delivering products

19 to the Civil Defence?

20 A. You mean that day or --?

21 Q. That day or any other day.

22 A. That day, we had already made two deliveries of flour, and I

23 believe it was the third one that we were doing. I think it was the

24 third one when we were hit by the sniper.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just remind you, you're not

Page 3724

1 speaking the same language as the witness, but I must assume that you're

2 listening to his answer in the original language, since you are putting

3 already the next question to him when the translation in French which I

4 follow now and then is not ready yet.

5 Could you also please pause until we also know the answer.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I will

7 bear in mind. I'm trying to be as fast as my colleague, but nevertheless,

8 thank you very much for your answer, Witness.

9 Q. I will show you a map now. And no doubt, you will be able to

10 point at the place, at the site where the incident took place. However,

11 do you know if the building or the seat of the Civil Defence, was it

12 guarded? Was it under guard, I mean by the military?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When you say no, does it mean that you do not know or that there

15 were no army guards there?

16 A. No, they were not guarded by the army.

17 Q. Witness, did you -- do you have or did you at the time have

18 friends who were bearing weapons, that is, who were members of some

19 military units?

20 A. No.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like the

22 witness to be shown the map which was used in the previous testimony. I

23 have a few copies here. And we can perhaps establish this.

24 However, on this map we have still -- we agree. Yes, we agree.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 3725

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

2 Mr. Usher, can you please ...

3 I'm drawing to the attention of the Chamber that it is the same

4 document that you received a moment ago, isn't it?

5 Q. Witness, you have before you a section of the map. Do you

6 recognise it as a section of the map of the city of Sarajevo?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Witness, to help us to follow it clearly, will you simply point,

9 where is the intersection where you say you were hit? Merely point at it.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of the record, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

13 witness is indicating an intersection which to the left of it is written

14 Studentski Dom. The intersection is where the letter "M" approximately

15 is. Please proceed.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I'd like to do,

17 Mr. President, is to ask the witness now to mark that intersection.

18 Q. Will you please take the black marker. And put a visible cross to

19 mark the place where you sustained your injuries.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 Will you now point at the place that you were facing, that is, the

23 area which is indicated here and says Nedzarici. Will you please point at

24 it. Do not mark anything, just point at Nedzarici.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 3726

1 Q. Will you please do it once again.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, can you please move the

3 map slightly.

4 Q. Yes, will you now, Witness, circle Nedzarici as it appears on this

5 map using the black marker.

6 A. [Marks]

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

8 do you want only the name or the area?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I meant the area. I see that

10 the witness has understood because he had done it. Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, now I'm still referring you to the map.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is there a

13 problem here?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You concluded, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that he

15 circled the area --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- be good as understood as just circling around the

18 name.

19 Mr. Kadric, Mr. Piletta-Zanin has asked you to put a circle around

20 Nedzarici. This circle you put, is that the area of Nedzarici or did you

21 just put a circle around the name? Is the area wider or smaller? Could

22 you please first tell us, and then if the area is wider, then perhaps put

23 a circle around the whole area.

24 A. No, only the name of Nedzarici is circled.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you then please circle what you would

Page 3727












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3728

1 understand to be the area of Nedzarici, say the whole area which you would

2 understand still to belong to what you call Nedzarici.

3 A. Do I have to do it absolutely precisely accurately, or can I just

4 do it approximately.

5 JUDGE ORIE: As good as you can, but if you say it might not be

6 precise as to every single street, then please tell us.

7 A. I'm sorry, Your Honours. We think of Nedzarici as being a wider

8 territory.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Wider than what is on the map or what you just

10 indicated or even wider than you indicated?

11 A. Larger than what I have marked. In this direction here.


13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do of course not exactly know what's the aim

14 of your questioning. Would this do? Do I understand, Mr. Kadric, that at

15 least what you've marked is all what you would call Nedzarici, but even

16 more?

17 A. What I have marked we call it all Nedzarici. That means from this

18 main -- from the tram stop, that is, from the Bulevar Mese Selimovica and

19 then all the way here, we call it Nedzarici. But there are also parts

20 which are it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Which are?

22 A. There are parts that are called Tosavjljaci, and other areas,

23 other areas like the people bearing that family name used to live there,

24 and that's what it was called. But in fact all this area is Nedzarici.


Page 3729

1 Would that do? At least we know this is at least, if not more,

2 Nedzarici. Would that be sufficient, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's fine. This is one way

4 to view Nedzarici. One version of Nedzarici.

5 May I continue?

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this absolutely precise exercise.

9 Now, could you tell me where you were living at the time of the

10 incident?

11 A. [indicates]

12 Q. So for the transcript, the witness is indicating, and perhaps you

13 could tell me when, that the street ends with the number I believe 389,

14 and this street is located in the enclave which he has just marked which

15 is in Nedzarici.

16 Now, Witness, thank you for your answer. Now, other questions in

17 relation to your vehicle: Do you know if on one or more occasions the

18 vehicle that your father was using had also been used by the army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you say "no" does it mean that you don't know or that it was

21 not used?

22 A. This vehicle was not used by the army. This vehicle was only

23 destined for this purpose, and this is only -- we had a load of 2 tonnes

24 and it was used to go to the brewery, and this was only for civilian

25 purposes that this vehicle was ever used. It would go to the brewery and

Page 3730

1 had a 2 tonne cistern installed in it.

2 Q. [No interpretation]

3 A. I don't know the answer to that.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that last question was not

5 interpreted. I'd be grateful if my friend could repeat the question so

6 that I could know what he asked. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, you referred to the destination of Vojnicko Polje. Does this

10 mean a battlefield?

11 A. No. This is a settlement which is called Vojnicko Polje.

12 Q. I'm taking that into account. Thank you, sir.

13 Witness, since we now know that your father was active in the army

14 in the 5th Brigade, do you know where the premises, where he was

15 exercising his military duty?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Witness, your father never told you where he was when he went to

18 do his duty?

19 A. He never went.

20 Q. And you yourself, you [Realtime transcript read in error "he"]

21 never knew where the premises of the 5th Brigade were?

22 A. No. We couldn't -- we couldn't get out, couldn't get out of our

23 building. How could I know where the brigade was?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. The question which begins

Page 3731

1 on line 12 of page 24 reads in English: And you yourself, he never knew

2 where the premises of the 5th Brigade were" I think the interpretation I

3 heard was "you never knew where the premises were." Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's how I understood it at least.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. This is what

6 I believe I had said, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think there's no misunderstanding that was

8 intended. Let me just see whether the question has already been answered.

9 Yes, the question has been answered. The witness says: "How

10 could I know where the brigade was?" So that implies that he didn't know.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes I noticed that,

13 Mr. President. Thank you for your help.

14 Q. Witness, you told us about the barricades. Could you indicate on

15 the map that you have on your right where the front lines, confrontation

16 lines between the two parties were?

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 I propose that you indicated on the map perhaps with an

20 interrupted line so that we could then refer to it afterwards. Is that

21 all right if we use the black, since the Chamber is using the red, and I

22 believe the red and the black will go excellently together.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please use the black marker, then, and then

24 indicate the front line as you just indicated it on the map with a dotted

25 line.

Page 3732

1 A. [Indicates]

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 Now, for the transcript, the witness has just marked an area which

5 is on the inside as being Nedzarici, but on the -- slightly on the right

6 side of that area.

7 Now, Witness, in this area, were you able to see, since you told

8 us that you lived in the centre of that area, were you able to see these

9 front lines?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Witness, you lived in the area, and you never saw the lines. Is

12 that how I should understand it?

13 A. No, I did not see it because I never went out anywhere. I did not

14 have an opportunity to go out.

15 Q. Very well. Witness, you told us you were not going out, but I

16 believe that you did go out in any case three times for the deliveries in

17 the truck. Now, could you indicate on the map the route that you took?

18 In any case, the two rounds of deliveries that you took before the third

19 when the incident happened. What was the route that you took for the

20 deliveries?

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Do you think you could do it a little more slowly so that we can

23 all see, please?

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Witness, thank you very much. And I will ask you, perhaps, to use

Page 3733

1 the red, if that is all right with the Chamber, so it can be more

2 easily -- or perhaps we can use a different type of line so that we can

3 tell apart the lines, what does the Chamber prefer?

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think red would be the best solution, otherwise it

5 becomes confusing.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So

7 we'll have the red and the black at last.

8 Q. So could you please make that line in red, the route that you

9 took.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now you just told us that you never went out,

12 but I believe that at least on occasions you did go out. Is that correct?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: That's not what the witness has said. If one goes

15 back to the original wording of the question asked of this witness as to

16 whether he could see the front lines, I think that it was very open to the

17 interpretation that the witness was being asked whether he could see the

18 front lines from where he lived. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's my recollection that he said that he didn't see

20 them because he never went out, so that from the place where he lived.

21 That's at least how I understood it.

22 MR. IERACE: I could direct you, Mr. President, to the relevant

23 line.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

25 MR. IERACE: It's page 12, line 12. That's where he was first

Page 3734

1 asked. Now, witness, in this area were you able to see, since you told us

2 that you lived in the centre of the area? And the witness replied that he

3 couldn't. And my friend then added the interpretation that that meant

4 that he never from where he lived or anywhere else saw the front line.

5 That was an interpretation not available to my friend.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be possible, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to rephrase

7 the question and perhaps proceed to the point you'd like to make.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I was going straight for

9 the aim in French, but I'm going to go more directly.

10 Q. Now, Witness, you lived in the area in question, and you did go

11 out obviously on the day of the incident. In fact, you went out at least

12 twice. And you went, you saw the front line, and you actually crossed

13 it. I'm talking about your own drawing, your lines.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I don't see any crossing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I can

15 imagine that from the lines drawn that you could say that at least in a

16 close parallel, but I do not see any crossing as a matter of fact.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So, okay, parallelly, very

18 well, Mr. President. Yes, absolutely.

19 Q. It is the same -- the question remains, Witness. I can see that

20 on the basis of your own drawing, you went out of the area where you

21 lived, and then the line that you mentioned, the route, was very close to

22 the demarcation, confrontation line. Now, you did not see a single line

23 of confrontation. Is that so? That is my question.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Fine. Thank you for your answer. You indicated in a red line the

Page 3735

1 direction in regards to the opposite of Nedzarici and which stops at a

2 certain point. Could you tell us about this location? Could you give us

3 the precise location of this?

4 A. Which red line?

5 Q. Well, I only see one which goes from the area of Nedzarici, which

6 is the lateral area on the right, and it goes to the Bulevar, goes to the

7 right, and then suddenly stops.

8 A. Well, I stopped there. I meant this is where we entered the

9 settlement with this red line.

10 Q. So Witness, could you go to the exact location where you were

11 going to deliver the goods.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. For the transcript, the witness added a line

14 further on slightly to the left which stops in the centre of the enclave

15 that he had marked.

16 Now, Witness, this is here where the premises of the Civil Defence

17 were. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes. At that time, these were the premises of the Civil Defence.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer.

20 Now, in relation to the area that we're interested in, that is the

21 area that you yourself had circled, could you perhaps tell us if the

22 buildings that are there are mostly apartment blocks, high rises or

23 perhaps lower type of houses?

24 A. About all of them had about eight floors, that is, ground floor

25 and another seven floors.

Page 3736












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3737

1 Q. Witness, in the area which is in the lower part of the area that

2 you've marked, that is the area which is on the left-hand side of this

3 outline, isn't it true that the houses or the buildings were a lot lower

4 in height?

5 A. The houses where I lived -- that I lived in, there were

6 ground-floor houses and seven floors. And here over towards the

7 intersection there was nothing else except the student residence. This

8 was all destroyed.

9 Q. Now, Witness, could you please take the pointer and then point it

10 to the -- put it on the map and show us again. You can put the pointer --

11 can you indicate the area? Go to the left, please, with the pointer. No,

12 this is going up. Go down to your left, please. A little further. Yes.

13 Go on, please. Go on. Yes, here, in this area. You can stop, thank you.

14 In this area here, isn't it true to say that the buildings were a

15 lot lower in height?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many floors approximately did the buildings in this area

18 have? In the area you have just indicated, which is the roughly the upper

19 left corner --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the precision of the transcript,

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness was indicating a street left of the word

22 "Nedzarici," a bit up with the names of the streets Aleja Bosne Srebrene

23 and below it, Asima Bekmeda [phoen]. Please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. So Witness, the question was how many floors were there in that

Page 3738

1 particular area that we are calling the lower area of Nedzarici in

2 general?

3 A. You mean exactly where the pointer is? Or you mean this area

4 here, up there?

5 Q. No, I was thinking about the area that you indicated with the

6 pointer and where as the President just reminded you. Is the lower

7 part -- go down. Go down. No, this is too far. This area here that

8 you've indicated, which is roughly on the same height as the word

9 "Nedzarici" but a little to the left. Isn't it true that in this area,

10 the buildings were of relatively low height?

11 A. There were no buildings; there are just family houses there.

12 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you. Thank you for your answer,

13 Witness.

14 A. The only building which is there is the faculty of the theology,

15 this one here.

16 Q. Yes. Very well. Thank you.

17 Did you see any trenches, Witness?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You have never seen trenches throughout the conflict?

20 A. Yes, on TV, when there was electricity.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very last question,

23 Mr. President.

24 Q. The map, Witness, that you see before you, does it correspond to

25 what is now real, what the situation is now?

Page 3739

1 A. I don't understand the question.

2 Q. Is there on this map certain details that do not correspond to the

3 situation in the city today?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you want to point at the whole map or

5 just this part, then I had the same thing in my mind. We discussed only a

6 very small part of the map so would you please indicate which specific

7 part.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President. I

9 am talking, of course --

10 Q. Witness, I am talking about what you've indicated. And in the

11 same area that you have circled.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, the question is whether the part of the

13 map we have been speaking about, whether in reality nowadays anything has

14 changed compared to what is on this map, to your knowledge. Is there

15 anything different now compared to what you see on the map?

16 A. This place now looks completely different because if you'll allow

17 me, because during the war, in this area here, this area here, there used

18 to be houses but they were destroyed so you couldn't see anything there.

19 And also in all these other parts of Nedzarici, new buildings have been

20 erected. But there are also family houses. Maybe they have one or two

21 floors.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. One of

24 the last questions.

25 Q. Witness, does the area that you have circled in a dotted line,

Page 3740

1 does it correspond to what you called Vojnicko Polje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness. And below this area, as far

4 as you know, there were no trenches there, were there?

5 A. In which direction lower down below?

6 Q. Witness, I am talking about the map, the same area to the left

7 below the area that you have marked in a dotted line, slightly to the

8 left. Can go out. Go a little lower. Lower. That's above. Below. You

9 can go down to the left. Down, down, down, please. Yes, in this area.

10 You can stop your pointer. Thank you.

11 Isn't it true to say slightly below that that there were trenches?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. And these houses, what type of houses were they at the time of the

14 incident?

15 A. In which area?

16 Q. I'm talking about the part of that we have just indicated with the

17 pointer. There were certain apartment blocks, certain blocks, and then

18 below Nedzarici, go down, go down. Go down. Go down. You can follow the

19 straight line. You have a line. You can follow the line, the vertical

20 line.

21 Witness, you can stop here. Yes, a little bit further, please.

22 Go below the pointer. All this area, what kind of houses were there?

23 Slightly to your right. What kind of buildings were they? So a little

24 bit to your right, please.

25 Yes, that is the left. Go to the right. Yes. Yes. You are now

Page 3741

1 in that area. This entire area, I can see a number 120 in the middle.

2 What kind of houses were in this area at the time?

3 A. As far as I know, these were only family houses on this side.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it took you approximately one

5 minute to get the witness to the area where he already testified that

6 these were family homes five minutes ago. I don't know whether there's

7 any reason for this repetitious questioning. Please indicate.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I wanted to be absolutely

9 precise and correct.

10 Thank you, Mr. President. I'm just going to confer with my

11 colleague.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am just asking a few moments

15 from the Chamber, please. Thank you.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this will be the very

18 last question, Mr. President. And then we're finished.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm quite willing to accept that

20 on line 66 -- page 66, 3, you said very last question, Mr. President. And

21 that was approximately eight minutes ago. So I keep you to the very last

22 question, because you later indicated one of the last questions. That was

23 a couple of minutes afterwards now. It's your very last question you do

24 understand. Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. As I said, this will be

Page 3742

1 my very last question.

2 Q. Now, Witness, you indicated that the houses we were trying to

3 determine the location of. These houses had been destroyed. Now, could

4 you tell us how they were destroyed and following what?

5 A. In which part?

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are talking --

7 A. Which part of the map?

8 JUDGE ORIE: The family houses you just indicated and an area I

9 described as the Aleja Bosne Srebrene. To your left. Where your left

10 ring finger is approximately. The family houses there, were these

11 destroyed?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE ORIE: These were not destroyed. Where were any destroyed

14 structures? Could you please indicate, because you told us that the area

15 had considerably changed. Could you please -- and you talked about the

16 destruction of houses or buildings. Could you indicate where these

17 buildings were that were destroyed?

18 A. All of the buildings in front of the blind institute, and the

19 institute for children were destroyed. They were no longer there. And

20 where I'm showing now, these were family houses that were not destroyed.

21 This part here. And all the others, below the institute for blind

22 children, the Branka Bujica Street which is going the direction of where I

23 was wounded, there was nothing there.

24 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of the record, the witness was

25 indicating the area which has the name Olsobodenje Studentski Dom, Zavod

Page 3743

1 Za Slijepe and Dom Penzionera.

2 Has is this clarified the issue you wanted to raise,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. And as I

5 said, this was my last question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to re-examine the witness,

7 Mr. Ierace? If so, I would first like to have the break. If not, I would

8 turn to my colleagues and see whether there are any additional questions

9 from the Bench.

10 MR. IERACE: I do propose to ask some questions in re-examination,

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll have a break now until 5 minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please bring in the witness. I do

16 understand a message was sent to me during the break that

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin would like to have the year of the map, and then I think

18 he means the black and white big map. Would it be possible for the

19 Prosecution who tendered this map.

20 Please be seated. Just one moment, Mr. Kadric.

21 You don't have to sort it out now right away, unless there's any

22 necessity now. Mr. Piletta-Zanin will then also provide us with the date

23 of his map, because he.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's up to you, Mr. Ierace, to re-examine the

Page 3744

1 witness.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. If you wish, I could give

3 that information now.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not relevant at this moment, let's just wait

5 until after the examination of the witness has been concluded.

6 MR. IERACE: All right.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

8 Q. Sir, you have been asked a number of questions about your

9 observations during the war. After you were discharged from hospital in

10 Sarajevo, how long was it before you then went to the United Arab

11 Emirates?

12 A. About four or five months.

13 Q. You were asked questions also about who employed your father at

14 the time you were shot. Who employed your father before you were shot,

15 that is, in the period between when the conflict commenced and when you

16 were shot?

17 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. During cross-examination, you said that there was a 2 tonne

19 cistern fitted to your father's truck. Is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. What did the cistern contain?

22 A. It was a plastic tank carrying water.

23 Q. You said that on the day you were shot, your father was carrying

24 flour. Was there anything in the cistern that you remember?

25 A. The day before, that cistern had been taken off that vehicle. A

Page 3745












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3746

1 day before.

2 Q. You said also in relation to the carrying of the cistern, you went

3 to the brewery or your father went to the brewery. As you understood it,

4 why did you go to the brewery, that is, why did your father take the truck

5 with the cistern to the brewery?

6 A. To load water, because at that time we had no water supply.

7 Q. You were asked in cross-examination whether on the route you took

8 when you were shot you could see the -- a single line of confrontation.

9 On the route you were on when you were shot, could you see the other side

10 of the confrontation line?

11 A. I couldn't see the trenches. I could see this building, this

12 institute for blind and retarded children that was there.

13 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'd like

16 to continue, because there are two new elements which have now emerged.

17 The first concerns the cistern, and the second, the answer of the witness

18 right now, the last question, the answer to the last question of the

19 Prosecution because he spontaneously said, "I could not see the trenches,"

20 and he was not asked the question. And when I asked him about the

21 trenches, he said that he knew nothing about that.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Although you could wonder, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether

24 the cistern is anything new brought up, we'll allow you some questions.

25 But let's take it seriously that you do it efficiently and quick.

Page 3747

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, as always, Mr. President.

2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, the cistern that you mentioned, did it

4 have to do anything with a cistern called Voma, I repeat Voma.

5 A. I don't understand.

6 Q. You mentioned cisterns. Does it have anything to do with a

7 cistern called Voma?

8 A. To begin with, I don't know what Voma means. I'll explain. This

9 cistern which was there, it is a plastic tank which would be put inside

10 the refrigerating tank, and he put the -- a day before we went to get the

11 flour, it was taken out so that flour could be loaded.

12 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. And my second question is

13 you said that you could not see the trenches but does that mean that you

14 knew where they were because you said you could not see them. Isn't that

15 so?

16 A. No, I didn't know where they were. I know that the institute for

17 blind and retarded children, that there were front lines there.

18 Q. But it is true that they were trenches, isn't it?

19 A. I don't know whether there were any trenches. I know that the

20 front line was there, and that from this place here, I could see the

21 institute for blind children.

22 Q. I remind you that a moment ago you said that you could not see the

23 trenches; therefore, you were aware that there were trenches.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other questions, Mr.

Page 3748

1 President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's even this question that I'll not allow.

3 It's certainly possible that you say that you didn't see something you

4 would expect normally at a certain place, even if you don't know for sure

5 whether they are there. If, for example, in a football stadium you say I

6 didn't see the players, that doesn't necessarily mean that the players

7 were there. But what you usually would expect in a football stadium is

8 players. Sometimes they are there and sometimes they are not there. So

9 the question suggests something which could mislead the witness.

10 Then, is there any question of my colleagues? Judge Nieto-Navia

11 will put questions to you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. How close or how far was your house from

14 the Civil Defence headquarters or place?

15 A. About 50, maybe 60 metres. That was the distance between my house

16 and the Civil Defence headquarters. Yes, it was very close.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has questions for you.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 If I understand you, Witness, you were sitting next to your father

21 at the time when the incident happened. Is that so?

22 A. There was a free seat between us, between my father and me, and

23 nobody was there.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. That's right. Yes. But

25 that is a vehicle with the steering wheel on the left-hand side, and you

Page 3749

1 were on the right-hand side?

2 A. That's right.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you said that you were hit in

4 your right side.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So in your view, this bullet

7 which struck you came from where, from which area?

8 A. From the direction of the institute for blind children. That is,

9 the bullet came from there. And you can see it clearly on this map here.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But on your way, you left your

11 house?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You were going back?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you were going back home.

16 A. That's right.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Having delivered whatever you had

18 to deliver.

19 A. No, we were coming back towards the Civil Defence with the goods

20 at the moment when it happened.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I see. Very well. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have a last question to you: You told us that when

23 the incident took place, your father was working for the Civil Defence.

24 A. That's right.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... by Mr. Ierace,

Page 3750

1 you told us that your father was in the army before the incident. The

2 question was: "Who employed your father before you were shot, that is, in

3 between when the conflict commenced and when you were shot?" Your answer

4 then was: "The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

5 A. That's right.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us when he left the army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and when he started working for the Civil Defence? Was

8 that immediately before the incident or a considerable time before?

9 A. My father was a member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but he

10 was also often engaged by the Civil Defence. I mean, because there were

11 no other means of transportation, no other vehicles to carry water, then

12 he would be taken on by the Civil Defence to collect this water and bring

13 it so that it could be distributed to the citizens. And that day, he was

14 working for the Civil Defence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So what you say actually is that your father was a

16 member of the army, but at the day of the incident, he was then, upon the

17 request of the Civil Defence, transporting flour in this case?

18 A. That's right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And did I understand well that the truck of your

20 father was never used for military purposes on those days when he was

21 working for the army?

22 A. He never used that truck to do any service for the army.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But he did use it for the Civil Defence

24 purposes.

25 A. [No Interpretation]

Page 3751

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answer.

2 Mr. Kadric, you've answered all the questions put by the parties

3 to you, and also the additional questions the Bench had. We're fully

4 aware that it's quite a trip for you to come from Sarajevo to The Hague,

5 and I hope you do understand how important it is for this Court to get

6 answers from those who have been present during those days in that area,

7 because we need answers on questions put to you by both parties in order

8 to prepare the decisions we'll have to take. Thank you very much in

9 coming and helping us to fulfill this task, and a good trip home.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please lead Mr. Kadric out of

12 the courtroom.

13 I didn't ask the usher to bring in the next witness, but I hope he

14 understands what he is expected to do.

15 We still have to deal with the exhibits. Madam Registrar, could

16 you perhaps guide us through the paperwork. I think what we've got --

17 I've got no videos, no 360-degrees at this moment. I think we first have

18 the -- yes. That's the medical report P1781, and the same number with a

19 .1 for the English translation.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: They are admitted into evidence.

22 Then, Madam Registrar, I think we have the photos.


24 JUDGE ORIE: The x-rays.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Then we have Exhibit 1701.

Page 3752

1 JUDGE ORIE: Which is the series of three exhibits.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Then we have the map, P3644 FK1.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- yes.

4 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I was going to say and the last exhibit is the

7 Defence map, which is D47.

8 JUDGE ORIE: They are all admitted into evidence. And when I

9 said, "Which is the series of three exhibits," I meant to say that it was

10 the series of three x-ray photographs.

11 Please, Mr. Usher, would you bring in the next witness in the

12 courtroom.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is merely to say that in

15 the transcript, the date of the map that we re using is 1998, and that was

16 not included in the transcript.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, then that has been corrected as well.

18 Mr. Kadric, can you hear me in a language you understand?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this courtroom -- and let

21 me first say welcome in this courtroom. Before giving testimony, the

22 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn statement --

23 solemn declaration. The text of this declaration will be handed out to

24 you now by the usher. And may I invite you to make that declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

Page 3753

1 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Kadric.

3 Mr. Kadric, the order in this courtroom is that you'll first be

4 examined by counsel for the Prosecution. You'll then be examined by

5 counsel for the Defence, and if there are any questions, either during

6 this examination or at the end by the Bench, we'll put questions to you as

7 well.

8 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

12 Q. Sir, would you please tell the Judge, and for the record, your

13 name.

14 A. Fajko Kadric.

15 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, were you living in Sarajevo?

16 A. No; at Pale.

17 Q. Sorry. When did you move from Pale?

18 A. On the 3rd or 4th of July, 1992. They moved us.

19 Q. Thereafter, did you live in Sarajevo, that is, from July 1992?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Before the armed conflict commenced, what was your occupation?

22 A. I had a butcher's shop in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Did you have that business with a relative, in particular, your

24 brother?

25 A. No, no, no. It was my brother-in-law.

Page 3754












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3755

1 Q. All right. When did you start that business? When did you join

2 that business?

3 A. 1987.

4 Q. In that business, did you have a truck?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. What was the size of the truck?

7 A. It was for cattle -- no, rather, we had two trucks and a

8 refrigerator truck.

9 Q. All right. After the move to Sarajevo, at some point after that,

10 did you join the army?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that ultimately known as the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you do that?

15 A. I believe it was the 10th of July.

16 Q. What were the forces known as at that stage that you joined, if

17 anything?

18 A. Something like TO, I mean the Territorial Defence.

19 Q. At some stage after that, did you do any tasks for an organisation

20 known as Civilian Defence?

21 A. Yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, could you come a bit closer to the

24 microphones, because those who are interpreting have difficulties in

25 hearing you. So if perhaps you would move your chair a bit closer to the

Page 3756

1 table and perhaps put the microphones a bit closer to you.

2 Yes, please proceed.


4 Q. When did you first start to do tasks for Civilian Defence?

5 A. Well, we went to fetch water.

6 Q. When did you first do that for Civilian Defence?

7 A. I can't give you the exact date, but it was a daily chore. I mean

8 whenever there would be no water, then we would go to get it.

9 Q. All right. Did you start doing that at some stage in the year

10 1992 or after then?

11 A. 1992, autumn of 1992.

12 Q. What did you use to collect water -- to carry water, I should say?

13 A. We had this refrigerated truck for meat, and we fitted in a

14 3-tonne cistern, and that is how we worked.

15 Q. When did you get that truck from?

16 A. We used to carry meat beforehand it in.

17 Q. Was it one of the vehicles that your brother-in-law had in your

18 butchers business?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Approximately how long was the truck?

21 A. Well, 320, the cabin, and then 2 metres, maybe less. So about 5

22 metres.

23 Q. And was the cabin separate from the refrigerated back or was it

24 part of the same body?

25 A. Separated.

Page 3757

1 Q. How many seats were in the cabin?

2 A. One plus two.

3 Q. What was the -- withdraw that.

4 Was the refrigerated part higher or lower than the cabin or the

5 same height?

6 A. The refrigerator was higher.

7 Q. What was the height of the refrigerated back from the ground level

8 approximately?

9 A. About 3 metres.

10 Q. And how much higher was the back compared to the cabin?

11 A. About 50 centimetres, half a metre. Perhaps more, I don't know.

12 Q. Whereabouts were you living when you moved to Sarajevo?

13 A. In the Vojnicko Polje locality.

14 Q. Was there an occasion when your son was travelling with you in the

15 truck, and he was shot?

16 A. It was there.

17 Q. What was the date that that occurred?

18 A. The 4th October, 1993.

19 Q. On that occasion, were you carrying anything in the truck?

20 A. Yes, flour.

21 Q. From where had you collected the flour?

22 A. At the bakery.

23 Q. Where were you taking the flour?

24 A. To the locality.

25 Q. Whereabouts in -- withdraw that. I take it you mean the locality

Page 3758

1 where you lived. Is that correct?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. All right. Whereabouts were you when your son was shot?

4 A. Well, on the street, the 10th Transversal, and where Branka Bujica

5 Street forks off.

6 Q. Did you make a statement to a investigator from the Tribunal on

7 the 13th of November, 1995?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At that time, were you shown a map of that area, and did you place

10 some marks on that map?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you place your signature on the map?

13 A. I did.

14 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P3108.

15 Q. Do you recognise your signature on the document in front of you?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Above your signature or at least in the same area, I think there

18 is the date of the 13th of October, 1995. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know who placed that date there?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. All right. And I think the date at the top in the box is the 13th

23 of November, 1995. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Now, on this map, did you mark the route that you were taking

Page 3759

1 immediately before your son was shot?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did that route -- withdraw that.

4 MR. IERACE: Might the map be placed on the ELMO, in particular

5 the part of the map which has some markings on it. That's the left hand

6 half of the map. Thank you.

7 A. Yes. I went from Sarajevo, and then I went up to here.

8 Q. All right. With the pointer, you are following the arrows

9 indicating a left-hand turn, and then across at an intersection. Is that

10 correct?

11 MR. IERACE: Perhaps that question doesn't need a reply,

12 Mr. President.

13 A. We went from Sarajevo.

14 Q. All right. Now, could you indicate where it was that your son was

15 shot?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. I think a cross appears on the map at that point. Is that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, will you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened after

20 you turned left and proceeded towards where we see a cross.

21 A. When we arrived to the intersection, there was a bang, an

22 explosion.

23 Q. Whereabouts was your son at the time of the bang?

24 A. On the right-hand side, on the right-hand side of the car.

25 Q. I think you said there were two seats, three seats all together,

Page 3760

1 and two seats -- please wait for the question. Two seats to your right.

2 Was he seated in the middle seat or the far right seat next to the door?

3 A. Yes. At the end, right by the door.

4 Q. All right. What happened after you hear the bang and the

5 explosion?

6 A. Faruk fell on the middle seat.

7 Q. Did you notice any blood?

8 A. Yes, I covered it with my hand, and I continued to drive.

9 Q. What part of his body did you cover?

10 A. The neck, like this.

11 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates the right side of the neck.

12 Q. What did you do then?

13 A. We went about a hundred metres behind a building, and then we

14 stopped.

15 Q. Did you receive some assistance from some other people?

16 A. Yes, UNPROFOR was there.

17 Q. And did they -- withdraw that.

18 Was your son then taken from that area to a hospital?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Following his discharge from hospital, was he ultimately sent to

21 the United Arab Emirates for further medical treatment?

22 A. Yes, he was.

23 Q. Did he remain there for approximately 19 months?

24 A. He left in February, and he returned in 1995.

25 Q. Did he leave in February 1994?

Page 3761

1 A. In 199 -- yes, that's correct.

2 Q. All right. What were you wearing on that day in particular at the

3 time that your son was shot?

4 A. I had a coat on. I had a civilian coat and trousers.

5 Q. Were you wearing anything to do with the military?

6 A. No, no, we didn't.

7 Q. What was your son wearing?

8 A. He had jeans on, and on top, I don't know what he had.

9 Q. What colour was the truck?

10 A. The cabin was blue, and the body was white.

11 Q. Was there any writing on the right-hand side of the truck as you

12 faced towards the front of the truck in the direction you were driving?

13 A. Yes, it said Mesnica, "butchers" in large letters.

14 Q. What was the weather like at the time your son was shot?

15 A. Fair weather.

16 Q. What time was it approximately?

17 A. Quarter past 11.00.

18 Q. Was the window, that is the window of the cabin nearest your son,

19 open or closed?

20 A. Closed.

21 Q. Later, did you inspect your truck for damage?

22 A. The truck was hit on the right-hand side at the door, the frame of

23 the door at the height of the neck.

24 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P3107.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, please proceed.

Page 3762

1 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the map might stay at the witness's desk.

2 I'll be coming back to that shortly.

3 Q. Do you recognise the piece of paper in front of you?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Is that a drawing that you did at the time that you made your

6 statement dated the 13th of November, 1995?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. Does it bear your signature?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: With the assistance of the usher, might that be

11 placed on the ELMO.

12 Q. Is that a drawing by you of your truck?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Does it show the side that was closest to your son?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On that drawing, would you please indicate what damage was caused

17 during this incident, if any?

18 A. This was the entry point of the bullet here.

19 Q. Would you please take a blue marker and draw an arrow to that

20 point of damage.

21 A. Like this.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Now, could you tell us where that point was? In other words, was

24 it on the frame of the cabin, on the door, on the frame of the door, or

25 where?

Page 3763

1 A. Yes, the frame. On the frame of the door.

2 Q. Now, were you able to determine the direction from which the

3 bullet had come?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How were you able to do that?

6 A. The entry point is exactly the size of a bullet, and then it

7 fragmented and hit my son there.

8 Q. Were you able to tell the direction the bullet had come from, that

9 is, before it hit your truck?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. How were you able to determine that?

12 A. On the front -- on the dashboard of the car, the bullet had cut

13 it, and it went on the other side.

14 Q. All right. Now, going back to the map, you placed a cross to

15 indicate where you were when your son was shot. That cross is on an

16 intersection. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How fast were you travelling at the time your son was shot

19 approximately?

20 A. About 20 or 30 kilometres per hour because we were loaded with a

21 full load, and it was going uphill.

22 Q. Having regard to the position of the vehicle when your son was

23 shot and the damage on the dashboard and the entry point hole on the side,

24 that is the right-hand side of your vehicle, were you able to conclude

25 firstly from which side of the vehicle the shot had come?

Page 3764












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3765

1 A. You see, there is the entry hole, which is about 20 or maybe 10

2 millimeters, and then it -- and then it exploded, it fragmented. It got

3 it and then it exploded. I don't see what you mean.

4 Q. All right. I understand that.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wonder whether we have enough time

6 to show the video at this point. Perhaps just that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We might have enough time to show the video, but I

8 wonder whether it wouldn't be better to have the questioning immediately

9 following the showing of the video, because we might have to show it again

10 tomorrow.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you have got no other questions unrelated to the

13 video, then we'll have a break. If there's anything you say that's

14 totally unrelated to that and covers a different matter, then we'll go on

15 for a few more minutes.

16 MR. IERACE: There are a few other questions, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


19 Q. At the time your son was shot, did you see any military vehicles

20 in the vicinity?

21 A. No, there was nothing.

22 Q. Did you see any United Nations vehicles in the vicinity?

23 A. Yes, further ahead of us, about a hundred metres.

24 Q. What did you see?

25 A. An APC.

Page 3766

1 Q. Did the APC have any markings on it?

2 A. I can't recall now.

3 Q. All right. I think you said you saw an APC in response to my

4 question as to whether you saw any UN vehicles in the vicinity. What led

5 you to conclude it was a United Nations APC?

6 A. It was standing in the Djure Jakisca Street where I had stopped.

7 Q. You said earlier that you had received some assistance from

8 UNPROFOR people after your son was shot. Where does those --

9 A. Yes, they were the ones.

10 Q. All right. And indeed, was the first place your son was taken to

11 a hospital?

12 A. First I stopped at the UNPROFOR vehicle, and then they helped

13 him. This is the Ukrainians, and then they took him to the PTT. This was

14 about 2 kilometres.

15 Q. In the PTT building, was there a French hospital?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was that where he was taken to?

18 A. Yes. And he was operated on there.

19 MR. IERACE: Is that a convenient place, Mr. President?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Ierace.

21 Mr. Kadric, we're not finished yet. But since this courtroom is

22 used this afternoon to hear another case, this means that we have to

23 adjourn now, and we'll restart -- resume tomorrow morning.

24 Madam Registrar, I do understand well we're in the same courtroom,

25 9.00 tomorrow morning?

Page 3767

1 Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: Just quickly Mr. President before we adjourn, just

3 before this witness's evidence commenced, Mr. Piletta-Zanin referred to a

4 map as being a 1998 map. I'd be grateful if he could indicate whether

5 that was a Defence map or a Prosecution map. If it was a Prosecution map,

6 it was incorrect.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think he intended to tell us what was the date

8 of his map, the map of --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President, I

10 was just doing that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we're still waiting for the year -- or do

12 you have by now, Mr. Ierace?

13 MR. IERACE: 1997.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So the Defence is one year ahead.

15 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is just to say that

17 it could be a 1997, but on the map that I saw, it said 2001, so we have to

18 be absolutely certain what's going on on the map produced by the

19 Prosecution. We could see in the right hand corner 2001, which seems to

20 me this is the year, and I think we should check.

21 MR. IERACE: That's the reproduction year, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reproduction year. That's the answer. If

23 there's any doubt about it, then we'll hear from it.

24 Then, Mr. Kadric, we'll adjourn, and everyone else in this

25 courtroom, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

Page 3768

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:45, to be

2 reconvened on Friday, the 15th day of February,

3 2002, at 9.00 a.m.