Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3982

1 Tuesday, 19 February 2002

2 [The accused entered court]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session now. Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps before the witness is brought

24 back into the courtroom, in order to give effect to the Trial Chamber's

25 rulings with respect to the daughter of the current witness, I'm not aware

Page 3987


























Page 3988


























Page 3989

1 A. No, no, nothing. Nothing.

2 Q. When you arrived back at your house that morning, you've testified

3 that there were quite a few people in your house. Were any of those

4 people wearing military uniforms?

5 A. No. Nobody.

6 Q. Were there any military weapons or heavy military equipment

7 outside your house that morning?

8 A. Well, from what I know there, no, no. And I never noticed any.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown the 360-degree

10 panorama photo which has been marked P3279P.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the booth assist us -- no, it's not the

12 booth. I make the same mistake as I did last time. The case manager is

13 now putting the picture on the screen. Yes, please proceed, Mr. Mundis.


15 Q. Mr. Pita, can you look at the screen in front of you and tell the

16 Trial Chamber what is visible on the screen.

17 A. What you see is the entrance into the house, and the passage and

18 the door to the living room.

19 Q. The brown door on the centre right or the right centre of the

20 photograph, is that the front door to your house?

21 A. Yes, yes, it is.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I'll ask that the photograph please be panned to the

23 right.

24 Pause there, please.

25 Q. Mr. Pita, there appears to be a gate or a door in the centre of

Page 3990

1 the photograph. Does that door or gate lead to the street that is in

2 front of your house?

3 A. It does, yes. It does.

4 Q. And in the lower centre of the photograph, there appears to be

5 concrete. Is that what you refer to as the terrace or the balcony of your

6 house?

7 A. From the gate towards the house, about 2 metres is this entrance.

8 And then after 2 metres or so of this concrete slab, there's some stairs,

9 and then comes the terrace.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Could you please pan the photograph further to the

11 right.

12 Please pause there.

13 Q. Is the area shown on the lower right hand portion of this

14 photograph now visible, the area that you refer to as the terrace?

15 A. Yes. Yes. That is the terrace.

16 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the photograph, please, be panned

17 upwards. And if we could then zoom in, please.

18 That's fine. Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Pita, off in the distance, beyond the tree branch that's in

20 the immediate -- the front of the picture, can you tell us what's visible

21 in the background at the upper centre portion of the picture that's in

22 front of you, please.

23 A. As far as I can see, it is those two facilities from which Anisa

24 was targeted presumably. Those up there. It's so-called Baba Stijena,

25 Baba rock.

Page 3991

1 Q. Approximately how far from your terrace is the Baba rock located?

2 A. I said it yesterday. I said that I was not an expert so I don't

3 really know. It can be 350, 550 as the crow flies.

4 Q. Which armed force or forces controlled the Baba stone or Baba

5 rocks?

6 A. I said it yesterday, it was the army of Republika Srpska and the

7 former Yugoslav army.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. If the photograph can be zoomed back

9 outwards. And please continue panning to the right.

10 That's fine. Thank you very much.

11 I'd ask that the witness now be shown the photograph marked P3267,

12 please. I'd ask that the usher please place that photograph on the ELMO.

13 Q. Mr. Pita, I'd ask you to take a look at the photograph which is

14 visible to your right. Perhaps on the screen in front of you. Can you

15 tell us -- can you tell us where this photograph was taken?

16 A. The photograph was taken approximately from the entrance from the

17 steps to the -- from the gate to the steps to the terrace approximately

18 from there.

19 Q. That would be approximately the area inside the gates on the lower

20 concrete area that you previously identified in the last electronic

21 photograph? Is that correct, Mr. Pita?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And on a previous occasion, in 2001, were you shown this

24 photograph by an investigator from the Tribunal?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 3992

1 Q. And did you, in fact, make some markings with a black marker on

2 this photograph?

3 A. Yes, I draw this line around, this shape. And I put -- there's a

4 rose here, and then I put an arrow to where the firing came from. That's

5 what I believe. There's no other location where it could have come from,

6 not even theoretically.

7 Q. This small tree that's in the -- enclosed within the line that you

8 drew, why did you circle that tree?

9 A. We circled it because there were no -- there were no other trees,

10 neither higher than lower. It wasn't there. My brothers planted it.

11 Q. That tree was planted after the war. Is that correct?

12 A. After we left the country, so it wasn't there before.

13 Q. And when you say "left the country," that was to seek medical

14 treatment for your second daughter. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it's correct.

16 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown the video which

17 has been marked P3280P, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If the booth could assist us. Yes, I see it's

19 already on the screen.

20 [Videotape played]

21 "INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please show me by pointing

22 where, to the best of your recollection, you heard gunfire shortly before

23 your daughter Anisa was shot.

24 "Thank you. Could you now please show me where, to the best of

25 your recollection, the bullet hole was before the wall was repaired.

Page 3993












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Page 3994

1 "I can see traces of repair work on the wall at this location,

2 and I am going to place a small red marks with a red tip felt pen."


4 Q. Mr. Pita, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And to the best of your recollection, did you comply with the

7 directions of the investigator truthfully and honestly?

8 A. Yeah, I think so.

9 Q. Yesterday you testified that while you and your wife and your

10 daughter were at the hospital, your brother found the bullet that struck

11 your daughter. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. And the spot in the lower part of the door frame that you

14 indicated to the investigator was the spot where the bullet struck the

15 wall after striking your daughter. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. You also told us yesterday that after your daughter was released

18 from the hospital, that you had to take her back for periodic medical

19 treatment. Do you remember saying that?

20 A. Yes, I remember. That's exactly how it was.

21 Q. Approximately -- for approximately how long -- withdraw that

22 question. How long after your daughter was discharged from the hospital

23 did this periodic medical treatment continue?

24 A. Approximately we took her for three weeks, every three or four

25 days, as the doctors told us, for a checkup and also for a change of

Page 3995

1 bandages.

2 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber how you took your daughter

3 to the hospital for those periodic checkups?

4 A. Yes, I can. My wife and I took her, but we didn't take her. We

5 had to carry her from my house to the hospital. There is roughly 3 or 4

6 kilometres, and we had to carry her. And it was very dangerous. We had

7 to take very dangerous streets under fire. As I said yesterday, and I'm

8 repeating it, these moments were far worse for me because when she was

9 wounded, I saw that she was all right, that she was going to be all

10 right. But then I thought what is going to happen if something happens to

11 us on the way to the hospital or the way back from the hospital. And then

12 of course she wouldn't go to the hospital. Then she would say well I will

13 go to the hospital if you buy me a chocolate. I had to convince her. One

14 chocolate to the way there and one for the way back. It was very

15 difficult.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Pita. The Prosecution has no further

17 questions at this time, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

19 Ms. Pilipovic, Defence is ready to cross-examine the witness?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, questions will now be put to you by counsel

22 for the Defence.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

Page 3996

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pita, good afternoon.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague,

4 you said that until the beginning of the conflict in Sarajevo, you worked

5 in Union Invest as an electrician. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us until when did you work in Union Invest as an

8 electrician, until what day did you go to work?

9 A. To tell you exactly, after November 1991, I did not go to work. I

10 was then on a waiting list. There was no work in the company.

11 Q. So what you're saying, that from November 1991, you did not go to

12 work, to the building of Union Invest, that's where your working place

13 was?

14 A. I did not work there in the building of Union Invest. I was

15 working in different facilities, in different buildings.

16 Q. Could you tell us from November 1991, since you were on a waiting

17 schedule, did you do any other kind of work? Did you work somewhere else

18 as an electrician?

19 A. Yes, I worked privately in the town somewhere. In different

20 places.

21 Q. When you say that you worked privately and in the city, until when

22 did you work privately in the city?

23 A. I worked until the 4th of April, and I even worked on that day.

24 Q. When you say that you worked until the 4th of April, 1992, are you

25 telling us that after that, you did not work any more?

Page 3997

1 A. No, I did not work after that. It was not possible to walk

2 around. I came back home, and I did not move from -- did not go out of my

3 neighbourhood.

4 Q. The neighbourhood where you lived in, does it have a specific

5 name? What part of town is it?

6 A. I said it yesterday.

7 Q. Yes, you said it was Stari Grad, old town.

8 A. I said it was Stari Grad, old town Sirokaca.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

10 like to show the witness that section of the map so that the witness could

11 mark for us on the map this old town Sirokaca and approximately where his

12 house was, if we can then have a picture of this neighbourhood as the

13 witness says. We have got copies of the map of town, and then using the

14 map, we would like to ask some more questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic, and I'll ask the

16 usher to assist you in distributing the copies.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the map will be D49.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Pita, you have before you a portion of the map of the city.

21 The Defence copied the part of town which encompasses your area of town,

22 Sirokaca.

23 Could you perhaps circle on this map that you can see next to you

24 using the black pen the Sirokaca.

25 A. To tell you the truth, I cannot see it there. I mean...

Page 3998

1 Q. Mr. Pita, perhaps you could use a pen so that we can see it on our

2 screens, so that we can all see it on our screens.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, could you please leave it on the screen to

4 the right of you because that's how we get the picture on our screen.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Pita, you circled just the name Sirokaca. You marked the area

7 Sirokaca. Could you perhaps put number 1 on that circle so that we know

8 that that is Sirokaca.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Then, in relation to this circle, could you perhaps mark the place

11 within or outside of the circle where your house was -- where your house

12 is.

13 A. The street is not on there.

14 Q. What was the name of the street, or what is the name of the street

15 if the name didn't change?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the name of the

17 street.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, could you please repeat your answer as to

19 what street your house was located.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zagrici Street.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, if we look at the circle that you marked as number 1, a

24 little bit to the left you will see that there is a street called Zagrici

25 there. Is that your street where you lived? On the left-hand side, if

Page 3999

1 you can see from this fork, from these forking streets in relation to the

2 circle.

3 A. I can't see it, but I lived on that street and I still live on

4 that street.

5 Q. You can see above the circle on the left-hand side there is a

6 street called Zagrici. The circle doesn't encompass it all. You probably

7 didn't see it very well.

8 A. Yeah, well, I don't have very good eyesight. I cannot see it very

9 well.

10 Q. If I tell you that it says Zagrici, would you then agree?

11 A. Yes, if it says, that then it is.

12 Q. Well you cannot see the Z because you marked it with a black pen.

13 A. Yes, this is the street. That's the street.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pita.

15 Considering that you told us that you live in this area, in this

16 circle that you marked, could you tell us whether the source of this water

17 that you went to fetch, is it within the circle as well?

18 A. No, it's not. The source is not. The source is to the left, on

19 my left.

20 Q. Could you perhaps mark it on the map for us, this location where

21 you went with Anisa to fetch the water.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Perhaps it will be easier to orientate yourself.

24 A. I cannot tell you for sure.

25 Q. We don't need you to be absolutely certain.

Page 4000

1 A. I know that it is to the left side. As well, looking at the

2 picture, it's to the left.

3 Q. Is it in relation --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you, you know the technique

5 better than the witness who is just looking at the screen and sees the

6 picture at this moment to make a pause between the answer and your next

7 question.

8 Mr. Pita, you and Ms. Pilipovic are using the same language, and

9 if you respond immediately once you heard the question, the interpreters

10 will not be able to translate quick enough what you said. And since we

11 are all very much interested to hear what your answer to the questions is,

12 could you also make a brief pause before you answer the questions.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Pita, could you tell us, give us an estimate, how far away

15 from your house this source is, is it a metre or kilometre?

16 A. I said it was about 150 metres from my house. It was

17 not a real source. It was just a man who was using surface water with a

18 pipe. It's not really a source.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 When you told us that from April, you did not go into the city,

21 did I understand you correctly?

22 A. I did go when I really had to.

23 Q. Could you tell us in this part of the city where you lived, were

24 there any incidents? Did you notice any clashes?

25 A. No, no, clashes. I did not notice. I never saw anything, and I

Page 4001

1 don't know anything about it.

2 Q. Could you give us an answer, looking at the house on the street

3 where you lived, do you know anything -- do you know anything about a

4 location that you knew that the units of the BH army or the VRS army were

5 based?

6 A. I couldn't know that. I told you the BH army, I don't know where

7 they were based. I was not -- I was not a member of the army. I had

8 family and personal problems from the start. So I wouldn't know. From

9 that house, you could see that there are those marks from shelling.

10 Q. You told us now that you were not engaged in the BH army because

11 you had family problems. Could you tell us on what kind of information

12 are you -- on the basis of what information are you telling us that if

13 we're looking -- if we're looking at the Baba rock, and your house, how

14 can you tell that the Baba rock was under that control, under the control

15 of the Serb army?

16 A. Well, because from my house you can see it. You can see it from

17 the street. And it is -- it was obvious that this was used by the VRS

18 army. You can see that the street below was used, and you can see it even

19 now that there was a hole and there were two trenches. So it's a very

20 simple issue.

21 Q. On the map which is before you, could you mark in relation to the

22 street where you lived? A part of your neighbourhood or above your

23 neighbourhood where the Baba rock is?

24 A. I cannot see it on this particular image.

25 Q. But if you look at the map, on the right-hand side, on your right

Page 4002

1 side, on the map, perhaps you can see it a bit better.

2 A. It is possible to see, but I can't really.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, could you please look at the map as it is

4 on the machine. Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could you assist, because that map is

5 bigger than what you see on the screen.

6 So the question is whether you can identify this particular rock

7 on the map.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have a very bad eyesight, and

9 I really can't find my bearings on this map.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if the witness is not able to -- you

11 might have seen it. I even use my glasses now and then.

12 Please proceed.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. If you're telling us that this rock is called Baba, could you tell

15 us, is this an area of the town, or is it some kind of high ground, some

16 elevation where a rock is?

17 A. The rock is called Baba. That's what we called it.

18 Q. Could you perhaps give us a description. When we say a "rock" is

19 it some kind of a hill? When we say rock, we mean a rock. Is this some

20 kind of an elevation in relation to your house?

21 A. Yes, it's an elevation. It's a rock above the house.

22 Q. You told us that in relation to your house as the crow flies,

23 about 250, 300 metres, you did not measure it?

24 A. No, I did not measure it, and I don't know. I'm not an expert.

25 Q. Did you go to that rock, for instance, in 1992, 1993, or 1995, or

Page 4003

1 1998 when you returned?

2 A. I have never been to the rock, and I never intend to go to the

3 rock.

4 Q. Did you go before the incident happened?

5 A. No, I never went. Perhaps before the war, maybe for picnics I

6 went, long before the war.

7 Q. How long -- how long would it take you to get to the rock? How

8 many kilometres even if you walked or if you took any kind of transport?

9 A. It was perhaps a kilometre and a half, something like that.

10 1.000, 1.200 metres. But really, I never measured it so I don't know.

11 There are experts I'm sure who can work it out.

12 Q. Could you tell us, since you told us already that you left

13 Sarajevo for family reasons, and you returned in 1998, can you tell me --

14 can you tell us when you left Sarajevo?

15 A. I left Sarajevo on 24th of March, 1994.

16 Q. So from December 1992, and the moment when the incident happened

17 and your daughter was wounded, until the moment you left Sarajevo, you

18 said that you often went for checkups with your daughter. Can you tell us

19 in that period on the way to the hospital or to the medical centre, did

20 you see soldiers?

21 A. To tell you the truth, I never saw anyone, not in that part of the

22 road, never. I was never interested in that. I've got to explain you

23 something. In the beginning of the war, my father died. My wife had a

24 mastectomy. I really had a lot of problems to do with my family. I'm not

25 interested in it even really today.

Page 4004












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Page 4005

1 Q. Could you tell us, on that day when the incident happened and when

2 you entered the house, in talking to your daughter and to your wife, did

3 you find out in which position was your daughter standing at the moment

4 when she was wounded?

5 A. To tell you the truth, you can imagine what it was like when I

6 entered the house. At that time, I didn't ask any questions. I did not

7 really feel very well, but I had to be the first one to react because

8 nobody would react. So whatever happened I would -- I took her,

9 returned. We did talk about it. I asked her -- I asked my wife, and she

10 said Anisa was turned. She was facing the door, and she was bending over

11 to do her -- to take her sneakers off because the wife had told her to

12 take the sneakers off because she had just cleaned the -- cleaned the

13 house so that she wouldn't make it dirty. And as she was undoing the

14 sneakers, this is what happened, and this is when my little girl started

15 to cry. Sorry. And then my wife reacted, asked her what happened, and

16 then what happened is that my little girl screamed.

17 Q. Considering that you showed us on the 360-degree photograph, you

18 showed us the entrance door, the spot where you presume the bullet struck,

19 do you allow for the possibility that the bullet ricochetted on

20 the door?

21 A. This was not the door, this was the corner of the wall.

22 A. Well, I don't know. If it had, then it would have gone in a

23 different direction. I'm telling you, Anisa was wounded in the upper leg,

24 in her thigh. So probably what happened was the bullet went from the

25 inner thigh, at the inner thigh and then exited the other side of the

Page 4006

1 thigh. And then struck the wall. That's probably what happened.

2 Q. You said that your brother found the bullet?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did your brother tell you where he found it?

5 A. Yes, he did. He said he found it in one of the slippers that were

6 there, that were just there on the floor, on the ground or somewhere under

7 the slippers. That's what he said. I didn't ask many questions, to be

8 honest. He just told me that.

9 Q. So you're telling us that you never saw the bullet?

10 A. Yes, I did see the bullet. He told me how he found, it and then

11 when I saw the bullet, I did not want to keep it or look at it or have

12 anything to do with it.

13 Q. Today we were able to see on the 360-degrees photograph the

14 terrace in front of your house. Could you tell us, as you go out on to

15 your terrace, apart from seeing the hill that you say is Baba, that you

16 can see Baba rock, what other parts of town in relation to that side or

17 the hills, what other parts of town or hills? What do you see when you

18 come out on to the terrace? Because we could see that there was another

19 house on the other side. What else do you see?

20 A. Nothing much. When you come out of the terrace, I can see another

21 house, of course now today there are more houses, but I'm talking about

22 then. There was one house, and then there was a cemetery up there, higher

23 up. There was -- at the time, Sarajevo, there was not enough wood,

24 firewood, so they would be cutting wood. Of course, none of this would

25 have happened had there been trees there. But of course they had been cut

Page 4007

1 down so you could see everything.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, you are talking quite quickly, which I

3 understand. But we would like to hear whatever you say to us, and it

4 first has to be translated. So if it would be possible, would you please

5 slow down a bit, and then Ms. Pilipovic waits before she puts a new

6 question to you.

7 If you see the text on the screen, perhaps you could wait to

8 answer the question up to the moment where it stops moving. Yes. I have

9 a full understanding, but we would really like to hear what you tell us.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, you told us that you could see Hambina Carina and the

13 cemetery. Can you tell us in relation to the circle where you put number

14 1, can you also circle the -- this area where you say that one can see

15 the cemetery and Hambina Carina?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, perhaps if you -- I'm sorry. Mr. Pita,

19 perhaps you first look at the screen where it is larger.

20 Mr. Usher, could you please then move the map a bit to the right.

21 A bit more to the right so that we can see at least the 1. Put the 1 in

22 the centre of the -- yes. Perhaps it could be zoomed in now a bit.

23 Please stop.

24 Can you see it now on the screen, Mr. Pita?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see it. Yes, I see it.

Page 4008

1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you try to also find it on the map on the

2 right-hand side of you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And then circle the area where you said you could see

5 the cemetery and Hambina Carina.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read this.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, for

8 the record, can the witness tell us in relation to this circle -- he need

9 not circle it -- does he see that under -- that below this circle is the

10 Hambina Carina part of the road.

11 Q. Can you see that?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, I can.

13 Q. And above the line where it says "Hambina Carina," then there was

14 a cemetery. Is that what you are talking about?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Can you then tell us in relation to the cemetery that you see, is

17 the hill that you can see beyond the street Cicin Han or the street

18 Hambina Carina?

19 A. Cicin Han I can see. That street, as far as I know, it goes right

20 through the middle of the cemetery. It goes through the cemetery.

21 Q. And where, if it can be precise, in relation to Cicin Han, in

22 relation to the Hambina Carina cemetery, where is this Baba rock? Where

23 is this elevation, where you say is this in relation to Cicin Han Street

24 or Hambina Carina?

25 A. It is over Hambina Carina from my house and over Hambina Carina

Page 4009

1 and that would be the direction.

2 Q. We see here Braykovac, Cicin Han. Would you allow that it is in

3 that part of, that is below Hambina Carina? Is that elevation Baba rock

4 there?

5 A. Baba rock is to the right of Braykovac.

6 Q. Is it in relation to this part where it says Lipe?

7 A. No, it is not.

8 Q. Not where it says Lipe?

9 A. Let me tell you. I don't really know these streets, and I can't

10 find my way particularly around them. I told you, I was not hit. But

11 from that place I told you there is my house, one house above me, and then

12 you can see the cemetery, and beyond the cemetery is this rock, Baba.

13 That's what I'm telling you. This way, I can't do it.

14 Q. Do you have any knowledge, if in 1992, 1993 who lived in those

15 houses that you say you could see from your terrace?

16 A. There was one man less than 50 metres away, there was a neighbour

17 of mine who lived in that house and who still lives there for that matter.

18 Q. On the basis of your statement, we learned that the incident

19 happened in December, or to be precise, and so that I don't ask you again,

20 it was the 13th of December, 1992.

21 Can you tell us whether that day or that night, whether you could

22 hear if there was any gunfire in relation to that part of the city in

23 which you lived?

24 A. That night was quiet. There was no gunfire, nothing. There

25 would be a shot here and there. And in the morning, I wouldn't have gone

Page 4010

1 with the child to fetch that water had there been any gunfire, but it was

2 all quiet. There was nothing, nothing.

3 Q. You told us that it was foggy in the morning.

4 A. Well, I said, yes, it was hazy. It was overcast. That is what I

5 said.

6 Q. And you said that you went around 10 or half past 10.00. You were

7 not precise, that you left the house. Can you tell us what the weather

8 was like then?

9 A. Well, I've already said. It was overcast, and there were those

10 patches of fog, that is, it was slightly hazy. I'm telling you

11 again I wouldn't have taken my child along if I thought we wouldn't get

12 through. 40 minutes, half an hour, I don't know how long we were there, I

13 could see that everything was clear. And then when the shot, it was the

14 house, I told the Elma, the older one, just look out and at that moment

15 the gunfire started.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, may I remind you to slow down a bit.

17 Because they first have to listen to you, and then they have to translate

18 it, only then can we hear it.

19 Please proceed.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you remove this slide from the

21 screen, because then I could have some control. As it is now, I don't

22 know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you still need the map, Ms. Pilipovic, or? No,

24 then please, Mr. Usher, would you change the screen again.

25 Do you see the text now again?

Page 4011

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, you said that you -- that you had problems in your

4 family, and that you were not interested in matters military, to simplify

5 it. What about your brothers, those who lived nearby, your brother from

6 your proper family. Was any of them a member of the BH army, and did he

7 tell you if there was any fighting in that part of the city?

8 A. Let me tell you, I did not communicate, and we didn't talk about

9 it. I do not know that. I didn't talk to them.

10 Q. In relation to the time when the incident happened on the 13th of

11 December, 1992, can you tell us how many days before that did you hear

12 whether there was any gunfire and at what time?

13 A. I can't really remember. All I know is that sometime in June,

14 five or six shells fell around my house. That is the gate, the garage,

15 the house, and one could hear quite often the rifle. I mean, there was

16 often fire.

17 Q. When you say there was fire often, how often is that in relation

18 to a month or a week?

19 A. I don't know. Well, there would be every day, there would be a

20 bullet or two or several times. We spent most of the time in the cellar

21 so that we didn't...

22 Q. Can you tell us how often -- and when I say "often," I mean in

23 relation to a week -- how often did you go to that part to fetch water, to

24 that part in relation to your house to that part of the city or to the

25 neighbourhood? How often did you go?

Page 4012

1 A. We went when the need arose.

2 Q. When you say you went when the need arose, can you be more

3 specific and tell us what does this need mean? Per week or a day?

4 A. No, a day, well, one -- well, when my wife said we needed some

5 water, then we would go there. I can't say whether it was a week or a

6 day. You know how things happen.

7 Q. You said that there was fire often. Can you tell us from which

8 directions and from which parts of the city did you hear this gunfire?

9 A. I cannot tell you about other parts of the city. I can talk about

10 my area only. It was above our houses up there, and I told you from those

11 positions. I've told you that.

12 Q. Do you have any knowledge that from these positions from which you

13 say the gunfire came, do you know if that fire was returned towards those

14 positions?

15 A. I really don't know.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a second. Let

17 me consult my co-counsel to see if we have any further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

21 further questions. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 Mr. Mundis, any need to re-examine the witness?

24 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, since the Bench has no further questions

Page 4013

1 for you, this ends your examination as a witness in this courtroom.

2 Please be aware that this Court understands quite well what it is for you

3 to come the long way from Sarajevo to The Hague, and I hope that you'll be

4 convinced that this Court finds it very important that all the questions

5 put by the parties are answered by those who were present in the area and

6 at the relevant time.

7 So therefore, we thank you very much in assisting the parties and

8 the Court which finally should result in decisions we'll have to take.

9 And I wish you a safe trip home again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please lead the witness out

12 of the courtroom.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I don't know whether you're going to ask

15 for a break in order to prepare the courtroom for the next witness.

16 MR. MUNDIS: I was going to ask for a break so that the --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Especially the voice distortion takes some time to be

18 prepared.

19 After we have done with the document, I think we have four

20 documents, Madam Registrar, tendered in evidence. Would you please...

21 THE REGISTRAR: The 360-degree Quicktime movie will be P327P. And

22 the video, P3280P. The photograph, P3267; and the map marked by the

23 witness, D49.

24 JUDGE ORIE: They are then admitted into evidence.

25 We're now just a couple of minutes after half past 3.00. I

Page 4014

1 suggest that we have a break now so that the courtroom can be prepared for

2 the next witness. We'll resume at 4.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the microphone, there is no

10 transcript.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I see there is transcript now.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, not only is there no transcript of

13 what Mr. Piletta-Zanin said, but there is no translation as well.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I think that the problem is the French is on

15 channel 4.


17 MR. IERACE: Yes, I'm hearing French on channel 4.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I have changed, yes.

19 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3; 1, 2, 3.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now I have the English on channel 4 again.

21 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And channel 5, we have now. [French spoken].

23 This also has caused the words spoken by Mr. Piletta-Zanin not to

24 be translated. So would you please repeat what you said, Mr.

25 Piletta-Zanin.

Page 4015












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4016

1 You have drawn the attention, perhaps I can resume it. You asked

2 attention for the back pain suffered by General Galic.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [French spoken] Is there any

4 problem with the translation, Mr. Ierace, or you want me to do it in

5 English? If you have any problem with French, it would be my privilege of

6 doing so, so just tell me what you want.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my French is improving but it's not

8 yet anywhere near the high standard of my learned colleague.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And channel 4, do you have English or French now?

10 MR. IERACE: Again, I had French when my friend was speaking. It

11 was English just before then, with the "1, 2, 3."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please speak French now, Mr.

13 Piletta-Zanin, so that we can see whether there's any translation.

14 [French spoken].

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [French spoken].

16 JUDGE ORIE: [French spoken].

17 THE INTERPRETER: We have only French on channel 4.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And we have English on? [Interpretation] When I

19 speak French, I only hear my French on channel 5. When I speak French and

20 when I listen to channel 4, I hear English, the English interpretation.

21 [In English] So as far as I can see, we have now English on channel 4,

22 and French on channel 5.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I once again hear French on channel

Page 4017

1 4. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'm perfectly happy, but I do not know

2 what I can do.

3 [In English] Yes, now I hear English again on channel 4. So

4 please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in French, and we'll just listen

5 whether we have the translation on channel 4.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Does it work now?

7 I was saying, so that everybody can understand, that during the break, we

8 met with the General Galic, and he says that the pain is practically

9 unbearable. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary to organise a visit to

10 a doctor as quickly as possible. Tomorrow, if possible, because if the

11 medical authorities think it useful, perhaps General Galic could be helped

12 by some therapeutical means which will be better and which will enable him

13 to attend the hearing regularly, but we need the assistance of the

14 Chamber.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will see that we get in touch with those

16 responsible for the medical treatment.

17 Perhaps if one of you could -- of the Defence team could try to

18 get in touch with OLAD right away. That's the best way to promote the

19 medical treatment, of course, if possible. You know that a lot of Dutch

20 citizens have to wait for a very long time until they can see a doctor.

21 So whatever will be possible will be best promoted by addressing the OLAD

22 immediately.

23 May I just ask an additional question: For this afternoon,

24 General Galic could stay in the courtroom? It's not that urgent, without

25 denying the urgency and the severity?

Page 4018

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your question,

2 Mr. President. I don't want to give an answer for Mr. Galic but I believe

3 he is being very stoical about this and I think he can keep up this

4 afternoon unless there's a change, in which case he will tell us. He may

5 well have to leave. But perhaps somebody else would leave and call

6 competent people who could perhaps help, if you will allow us.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Someone else; who would you have in mind at this

8 moment?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

10 continues]...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could you address the OLAD people right

12 away? Perhaps that takes five minutes or...

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar tells me that she could try to get

15 in touch with one of the OLAD people so that you can have a very short

16 conference right away so that you can --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] From the inside of the

18 Chamber, of the courtroom?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, she can call from the inside of the courtroom,

20 and that perhaps this will cause your absence for five minutes so that you

21 can explain.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: General Galic, apart from the measures we are trying

24 to take now, I'd just like to hear from you as well, whether you agree

25 with Mr. Piletta-Zanin that although you do not feel well, that you are

Page 4019

1 still able to continue this afternoon?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already said that I can stay

3 here unless, of course, I feel very bad, and then I will say so. But you

4 need to understand one thing, that this pain moves from my spine down my

5 legs, and then back to my head, so that is my problem. I did undergo

6 treatment here. You know that at the time of my arrest, I was severely

7 injured, and for six months I could not move my right foot. I have three

8 injuries along my spine, the scanning established that. It was

9 established in the detention unit and it was established that I have a

10 herniated disk which could be treated if I gave-- did not do physical

11 work. But how can I do that if I cannot walk. I mean, it hurts. And then

12 a surgical intervention was suggested to me, and you remember this whole

13 discussion. I said that I would try to suffer this pain as long as I can

14 because it is in my interest to finish the trial as quickly and as soon as

15 possible. That is my objective. I will do my best.

16 But if it becomes too hard for me, then I will ask for the floor

17 without any fear, without any ill effect. I believe that I can follow the

18 proceedings, and that I'll be able to do so tomorrow. But it is quite

19 possible of course. I do not know why I am not knowledgeable about

20 things. Perhaps tomorrow morning I should be given an injection or

21 something in addition to the medicines that are administered every day.

22 Perhaps an injection would allay the pain somewhat for tomorrow.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you feel that you're -- that you cannot

24 follow the proceedings any more, as you told us already, you'd be on your

25 feet and tell us immediately. That's what I invite you to do if

Page 4020

1 necessary. And meanwhile, I think your counsel together with the OLAD see

2 that as soon as possible an appointment with a specialist will be made

3 when necessary.

4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do hear that it might be possible to be examined by

6 a doctor tomorrow in the afternoon presumably. I don't know whether this

7 will already be a specialist or that you will first be seen by the general

8 practitioner, but you'll then certainly know how to proceed.

9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: The OLAD will be in touch with the detention unit and

11 see whether this can be arranged even for tomorrow. If the appointment

12 could be made in the afternoon, could we expect you to be in the courtroom

13 in the morning or...

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you very much. We will then pay proper

16 attention to it. And I'm glad that I raised the issue today.

17 General Galic, we discussed the matter in open court, and since I

18 know that you are not very favourable of talking with everyone about these

19 kind of problems, there has been no one here. Would it be necessary to do

20 the whole thing of redacting or would you just accept the way we discussed

21 it as it is now. Redacting, I mean to change the transcript or that we

22 just accept as it is now the transcript. We didn't go in any detail, I

23 think.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it can stay. There's -- I don't

25 want to be someone who is complicating the matters.

Page 4021

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm much obliged to this attitude. Thank you.

2 Then, before we continue, I have one other issue I'd like to

3 discuss with the parties at this time. During the break, I saw a decision

4 of the Registry, a decision appointing a presiding officer to witness the

5 declaration of a witness in The Hague today. The Rule 92 bis is usually

6 applied when there's some difficulty in having the witnesses in this

7 courtroom. I wondered, since this witness seems to be in The Hague, what

8 actually was the specific reason not to hear this witness in this

9 courtroom, being the witness in The Hague, and I also would like to know

10 whether we could find some kind of a procedure that if there's any need of

11 cross-examining a witness, that we could at least use his or her presence

12 at this moment in The Hague. Because if the witness -- I don't know who

13 the witness is. I don't know whether the witness lives in the Netherlands

14 or in the former Yugoslavia or wherever. But I know for sure that if

15 there would be a request later on to cross-examine the witness for

16 specific reasons, then it would not be easy perhaps to get the witness

17 again in the Netherlands if the witness is not residing in the Netherlands

18 at this very moment.

19 So if you could please clarify this, Mr. Ierace. And Mr.

20 Piletta-Zanin, you would like to --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is just to say we do

22 not know who this witness is. We don't have any information, so we will

23 be listening with great interest. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. I don't know whether it's a protected

25 witness. I've got no idea. So would you please be very careful since we

Page 4022

1 are dealing with it at this moment in open Court.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will make some inquiries as to the

3 identity of the particular witness, but in the meantime I will say this:

4 During the pre-trial stage, the Prosecution was encouraged by the

5 Pre-Trial Chamber to have as many witnesses as possible dealt with by way

6 of the Rule 92 bis procedure. In other words, in the interests of saving

7 Court time. I have not previously understood that it was a prerequisite

8 to the use of Rule 92 bis that there be an impediment to the witness

9 giving evidence in the Trial Chamber. I had understood that a primary

10 purpose was to save time in the Trial Chamber, and that, I confess, has

11 been my guiding principle in selecting 92 bis witnesses.

12 I will give you more information when I clarify the identity of

13 the particular witness. Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not think that you misunderstood what was

15 said during the pre-trial proceedings, only as far as I'm aware of, very

16 often the procedure of 92 bis is used for witnesses that are not living

17 near to the seat of the Tribunal. And if there's any need to

18 cross-examine the witness on the basis of the statement given by the

19 witness, then of course it would be perhaps not very efficient to let the

20 witness return to a place far away from the seat of the Court, and perhaps

21 then we would even have to call the witness again if we would allow the

22 cross-examination of the witness upon the request of the Defence.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I say something about that: My

24 preference would have been that we decide which witnesses can give their

25 evidence by way of 92 bis before the 92 bis procedure is taken. I made

Page 4023

1 some inquiries, and the result of those inquiries was that it was

2 unfortunately necessary to go to this trouble to obtain the statement in

3 92 bis form before we could invite you, the Trial Chamber, to rule on

4 that.

5 I agree it would have been far more sensible if we simply could

6 have handed up a copy of the statement and had a ruling on the basis of

7 the statement because, ultimately, if any of the 92 bis witnesses are

8 rejected by the Trial Chamber, there has been a considerable waste of time

9 by both the OTP and the Registry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I have concentrated on the issue of

11 92 bis before as well, and I also found that it's the order, we'll find,

12 in the Rules and also in the Practice Directions is that it should be done

13 as it is done at this very moment. This leaves apart the possibility of

14 perhaps introducing this statement of this very witness a bit earlier so

15 that, if the witness is still in The Hague, that there might be -- that we

16 might give a judgment now on whether, if there's any need to cross-examine

17 the witness, that we can decide on the issue now before the witness has

18 returned to the place where the witness is residing.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

21 think that the Defence -- it would have been helpful for the Defence if we

22 could have the name of the witness because that would have -- that would

23 be of assistance, particularly because, if I am to understand, that the

24 Chamber does appreciate precision.

25 Now, there is a problem, Mr. President, more important than the

Page 4024

1 identity of the witness that we at the moment have no idea of, which is

2 the principle, Mr. President. And I would like to just take a few moments

3 to say more about this.

4 On several occasions, we heard witnesses, and these witnesses,

5 when they were cross-examined by the Defence, they said things that were

6 unexpected but very useful for the Defence. And we could think of a

7 witness that, in front of his window, there was an HQ on the front line,

8 in front of his window. Or perhaps we could think of another witness who

9 -- who said that he was accompanied by a soldier when he was injured, and

10 we are talking about the young man who testified a few days ago who was 25

11 years old, or perhaps we could think of other witnesses who would then

12 tell us about important things after being questioned, and that there were

13 brigades or troops stationed near their place of residence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think what you're doing now is already entering

15 into a debate on whether 92 bis witnesses -- and as we all know that you

16 have filed your view on 92 bis witnesses at the Registry. Once the

17 Prosecution has given notice to you that they intended to use statements

18 of witnesses on the basis of 92 bis. We'll deal with that in a later

19 stage, and I would rather not have this debate at this very moment. The

20 only exception I'd like to make is that perhaps on the witness which,

21 apparently, is in The Hague at this very moment, that if there's any need

22 to cross-examine that witness, that perhaps we use -- we should use the

23 presence of the witness in The Hague.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that the occasion

25 is here. I think we should seize this opportunity, and the witness could

Page 4025

1 certainly come and testify, as I said a moment ago.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness will be presented as a

3 92 bis statement. Once the Chamber has read the statement before giving

4 its decision whether it accepts this evidence as a statement rather than a

5 viva voce testimony of the witness, we'll decide on whether we'll accept

6 the evidence, then the Defence can make an application showing good cause

7 why the witness still should be cross-examined by the Defence, and we'll

8 then take a decision on that. But I'll just try to speed up this for a

9 witness which turns out to be in The Hague at this very moment.

10 I would then like to proceed and to call the -- have the next

11 witness of the Prosecution called, Mr. Ierace.

12 Perhaps you could solve things out during the next break, and then

13 that we proceed now.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The next witness is Witness E.

15 Before the witness is called, I should inform the Trial Chamber that the

16 video in respect of this incident has not redacted -- has not been

17 redacted at this stage, and therefore I seek that the showing of the video

18 be done in closed session. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Madam Registrar, everything is functioning

20 as it should function as far as the face and the voice alteration is

21 concerned? Then I see that the usher left the courtroom ready to bring in

22 witness E.

23 MR. IERACE: While the witness is coming in, perhaps at this stage

24 I could alert the Trial Chamber to a problem that I have become aware of.

25 I don't yet have a solution to the problem. The scheduled incidents to

Page 4026












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4027

1 the indictment are not in redacted form and never have been. That is

2 because the relevant witnesses have indicated their desire for protective

3 measures at a later point. The end result of that is that when I identify

4 the particular incident, potential allows for the identification of the

5 witness. Even the reference to the date would allow that. It's a

6 difficult issue. For that reason, from here on in, I propose to have the

7 witness give evidence of the date in written form. That will at least

8 assist. And once you, Mr. President, and Your Honours, and the Defence

9 have seen that date, it will be a relatively simple matter to identify

10 which of the incidents on the schedule the evidence relates to.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could proceed in a similar way as

12 with the name and the date of birth. So if you would prepare -- well,

13 perhaps you could do it right away. A similar sheet provided with a

14 number, and then show it to the witness, give a copy to the Court, give a

15 copy to the Defence, and then we'll ask her to read the date and indicate

16 to her that whenever we'll talk about the incident, that we are referring

17 to an incident of that date.

18 Another way would be that we ask her not to answer any question as

19 far as the date of the incident is concerned, but to ask her to write it

20 down on paper and then admit that document into evidence. Perhaps that

21 would be a more correct way of doing it.

22 Just one second.

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Defence is ready?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, ready to answer,

Page 4028

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to the

4 proceedings, we have no objections to the witness writing every time. Of

5 course, no problem whatsoever.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would not have the witness to write

7 everything down. So we'll then proceed. But may I remind the parties

8 that they put off their microphones once they have put the questions to

9 the witness since the voice distortion might not function well if you

10 leave your microphones open.

11 Please, then, Mr. Usher, bring in the courtroom in the courtroom.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I will call you Miss E since protective measures are

16 taken in respect of you. So I'll not use your name. I'll you "Miss E"

17 during your presence in this courtroom.

18 First of all, welcome in this courtroom. Before you give

19 testimony in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

20 to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

21 and nothing but the truth. And the text of this solemn declaration will

22 be handed out to you now by the usher, and I invite you to make that

23 declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 4029

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Miss E. Please be seated.

2 You have been called as a witness by the Prosecution, so the order

3 of your examination is that you'll first be examined by counsel for the

4 Prosecution. You'll then be examined by counsel for the Defence, and if

5 there are any additional questions to be put by the Bench we'll do so as

6 well.

7 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

11 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be given Exhibit P3564.

12 Q. Are the details on the sheet of paper in front of you correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: I seek to tender that exhibit as a confidential

15 exhibit.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P3654 is admitted into evidence under seal.

17 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, that contains the

18 witness's name and date of birth.

19 Q. Where were you living --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like

21 to intervene on behalf of the French booth, complaining that they cannot

22 hear Mr. Ierace. I don't know whether that's channel 5, 4, or 3, but Mr.

23 Ierace cannot be heard by the booth.

24 MR. IERACE: I will speak up.

25 Q. Where were you living in 1992?

Page 4030

1 A. In Sarajevo.

2 Q. Did you continue to live in Sarajevo throughout the armed

3 conflict?

4 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness at all. We are

5 sorry.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist the witness. I

7 see that the microphones are not in her direction.

8 The interpreters' booth complains that they cannot hear the

9 witness.

10 I'm informed that channel 7 could assist the interpreters' booth.

11 Could you please say a few words, Miss E, in order to test all the

12 technical stuff which is found in this courtroom. Could you just say a

13 few words, like "Dubra Dom."

14 Does this give a satisfactory result in the --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Not really. There is still very faint sound

16 from the witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you speak a bit louder, Miss E, would that --

18 could you try to just say a few words, like "Dubra Noc" or "Dubra Dom" a

19 bit louder so that the interpreters can hear you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can try.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that good enough for the interpreters?

22 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour. Not really.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So we need, I'm afraid, the assistance of the

24 technicians.

25 Is it just the English booth that has problems? [French spoken]

Page 4031

1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please count from 1 to 10 in order to test

3 the system. I know for sure that you can.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour. There is interference, a lot of

6 interference in our microphones.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Where does the interference come from? Could the

8 technicians assist us?

9 We still have to wait for a second since everything will be

10 checked.

11 Could you please repeat your counting from 1 to 10. I know that

12 it's repetitious, but...

13 Could you please do it again so that we can test the system.

14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

15 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear the witness, but there is still a

16 lot of interference. On the other channel, there is no interference but

17 we cannot hear the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: There still seems to be a lot of technical problems.

19 I apologise for these technical difficulties.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps I could avail myself

22 of this opportunity just to speak for the French booth. And what they

23 wanted is Mr. Ierace to come closer to the microphone when he speaks so

24 that we don't have other problems.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the problem we have with Mr. Ierace, but

Page 4032

1 our main problem at this moment is -- is it of any use to retest the

2 system?

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that at this very moment, the

5 technicians cannot achieve a better result as it is now. May I invite the

6 English booth to do their utmost best and to let me know immediately if we

7 cannot proceed any more. And I apologise already for the unpleasant

8 circumstances you have to work under.

9 THE INTERPRETER: We shall do what we can.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please let me know if it really is impossible

11 to continue.

12 The English booth will do their utmost best to translate as good

13 as they can.

14 Mr. Ierace, would you please proceed, and perhaps if we would all

15 keep in mind that it's not an easy task at this moment for the

16 interpreters.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know how much --

20 perhaps the French transcript can be placed on the computer, on the

21 monitors in the English booth which could perhaps help them to work from

22 the French transcript.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I've no idea whether this would be of any help, but

24 if the booth would follow the suggestion, being supported by the

25 transcript. But I'm afraid it's just the other way around, that you're

Page 4033

1 not the source of the transcript, of course you can't do with. Let's try

2 to proceed and see where we cannot continue any more.

3 Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

5 Q. Did you continue to live in Sarajevo throughout the conflict?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In what part of Sarajevo were you living in 1993?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please turn off your microphone whenever

9 you are waiting for the answer, Mr. Ierace.

10 A. In the [redacted].

11 Q. All right. Did you also live there, that is, in the old part of

12 the town -- withdraw that.

13 You've mentioned a street. In which area of Sarajevo did you

14 live? Was that also Sedrenik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Did you also live there in 1992 and 1994 and 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be given a sheet of paper.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

20 Yes, please proceed.


22 Q. Was there an incident when you were at home and when you were

23 shot?

24 A. Yes, there was.

25 Q. Would you please write on the piece of paper in front of you the

Page 4034

1 date that you were shot.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the colour of the marker is not of major

3 importance at this moment.

4 A. [Marks]

5 MR. IERACE: Might I please have access to that piece of paper.

6 Mr. President, I seek to tender that as a confidential exhibit. I

7 think it would be P3654E, capital E, that is.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you please show it to the Defence.

9 Yes.

10 I think since we deal with these kind of documents in the early

11 stages, we'll admit it into evidence right away confidentially. That's

12 P3654E.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the reference to the street

15 name might be redacted as well. That's page 47, line 16.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll ask Madam Registrar to prepare the decision

17 to redact that part of the statement.


19 Q. Now, at that time, having regard to your birth date, you were a

20 child. Is that correct? But I do not want to know your exact age.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the weather like on that day?

23 A. It was sunny.

24 Q. What were you wearing?

25 A. Dark trousers and a blue jacket.

Page 4035

1 Q. At some stage in the morning, did you go outside to play?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Whereabouts did you play? Was it in the front yard, the back

4 yard, or somewhere else?

5 A. Beneath the window of the house.

6 Q. Was that in the front yard?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After a while, were you joined by another child who played with

9 you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I do not want to know his name. Was he of a similar age to you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. For how long did you play with him?

14 A. Half an hour.

15 Q. Did he then leave?

16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

17 MR. IERACE: All right. Just for the benefit of the transcript

18 and what occurred, I think the witness also answer "yes," so there may be

19 some further problems in hearing the witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, Miss E, talk as loud as possible

21 since the interpreters have some difficulties in hearing you. Again, I

22 think the answer to the last question, when Mr. Ierace asked you, "Did he

23 then leave?" Was "Yes." Is that true?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

Page 4036


2 Q. How long after the boy left -- withdraw that. Were you and he

3 both playing in the front yard for all of the period that he was with you?

4 A. I didn't understand the question.

5 Q. You've told us that you were joined by another child, and that you

6 and he played for about half an hour. Did you both play in the front yard

7 for all of that half hour?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After he left, what did you do?

10 A. I went on playing by myself.

11 Q. After that, at some stage, did you go near the wall in front of

12 your house and do something with the flowers in the garden?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]


17 Q. Did something happen to you while you were near the wall in front

18 of your house?

19 A. Yes, I was hit.

20 Q. When you say you were hit, what exactly do you mean?

21 A. Well, I don't think anyone struck me with a stone. I was wounded

22 from the side.

23 Q. It's important that you tell us exactly what happened. When you

24 say you were hit, you were hit with what? What were you hit with?

25 A. A sniper bullet.

Page 4037












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4038

1 Q. All right. At that instant when you were hit, what position were

2 you in? Were you standing up or bending over or kneeling or what?

3 A. I was kneeling.

4 Q. Where were you facing as you were kneeling when you were hit?

5 A. My back was more or less to the wall, and my face towards a spikey

6 rock.

7 Q. Whereabouts -- withdraw that.

8 Whereabouts were you shot?

9 A. In the area of my shoulder blade.

10 Q. Did the bullet stay in your body or did it pass through your

11 body?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please turn off your microphone when

13 listening to the answer, please. Yes.

14 Please proceed, Miss E.

15 A. Yes, the bullet went through my body and ended up in the wall.


17 Q. Would you please, in a moment, slowly stand up and turn around and

18 when I ask you to, point to where the bullet entered your body, and then,

19 when I ask you to, point to where the bullet left your body.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I assume that if the witness does that

21 slowly, the face distortion can be maintained.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I just am looking to the technical booth, that

23 they are prepared that the witness will stand up slowly.

24 MR. IERACE: All right.

25 Q. Would you please, now, turn around and point to where the bullet

Page 4039

1 entered your body, if you can reach that point with the fingers of -- one

2 of your fingers.

3 A. [Indicates].

4 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates the back of the right shoulder.

5 Q. Could you now point to the position where the bullet left your

6 body.

7 A. [Indicates].

8 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the same area but further down.

9 Thank you.

10 Q. Would you please now sit down.

11 Were you able to accurately indicate those positions, or were you

12 constrained by the difficulty in touching that part of your body with your

13 hands?

14 A. Well, because I was a small child, as I have already said, the

15 scars moved, I suppose, as my body grew so I cannot reach the exact spot.

16 Q. All right. Now what did you do after you were shot?

17 A. I stood up and went to the house, sat on the threshold, and I

18 called out to my mother and said that I had been hit.

19 Q. Did you receive some treatment from your aunt?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was your aunt a nurse?

22 A. She is.

23 Q. Were you then taken to a hospital?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you taken from the house with the assistance of a neighbour?

Page 4040

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who else took you from the house? And please, do not use names.

3 A. A friend whom I mentioned, who played with me. There was his

4 father and another neighbour, and then we went to a third person who put

5 me in his car and drove me away.

6 Q. Did something happen as you were being driven away?

7 A. Yes. Fire was opened on the car.

8 Q. All right. Now, coming back to your position at the time that you

9 were shot, you've told us that your back was facing towards a particular

10 place. What was the name of that place that your back was facing towards?

11 A. Do you mean the street?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have an objection. This is

14 an intrusive question because it is quite contrary to what the witness

15 said. I will quote line 51.12, where the witness said this: "More or

16 less to the wall." [No interpretation].

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was not Mr. Ierace; it was

19 quite the opposite. 51.12.

20 MR. IERACE: I understand the objection, Mr. President. And I

21 withdraw the question.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


24 Q. You told us that when you were shot, I think you said that you

25 were kneeling or squatting.

Page 4041

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].


4 Q. As you were kneeling or squatting, which direction were you

5 facing? Were you facing towards the house, to the side of the house, or

6 away from the house?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please turn off the microphone. Yes, Mr.

8 Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The same objection. The

10 witness has already answered this question clearly, and the Prosecutor is

11 saying opposite. The witness has already said that she had her back to

12 the wall.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The answer was that the back was more or less to the

14 wall, so I would allow some questions which will not deny the answer

15 given, that it was more or less to the wall. Especially when someone is

16 kneeling, it might not be clear, right on.

17 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll approach it a different way.

19 Excuse me, Mr. President.

20 Q. You mentioned, in relation to your position, a spiky rock. What

21 did you mean by that?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Does Mr. Ierace could

24 quote the line so that we can follow him in the transcript, please [as

25 interpreted].

Page 4042

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's also in my recollection that the rock was

2 mentioned. But, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, it's the same page and line

4 reference that my learned colleague gave. It's page 51, at line 10 is the

5 question: "Where were you facing as you were kneeling when you were hit?"

6 Answer: "My back was more or less to the wall, and my face towards a

7 spiky rock."

8 Q. What do you mean by "a spiky rock"?

9 A. Probably what I meant was probably that's where the bullet had

10 come from.

11 Q. What is the name of that place?

12 A. You mean where the bullet came from?

13 Q. Yes, where you say the bullet came from.

14 A. It's called Spicasta Stijena, sharp rock feature, or a spiky rock.

15 Q. All right. Is that -- I think that's sometimes known as

16 Sharpstone in English. Is that correct?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown two

20 photographs which are Exhibit P3273.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, could you assist Mr. Ierace in

22 giving the photographs to the witness.

23 How about the ELMO and protective measures?

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are no signatures or other --

25 certainly no signatures on the photographs. As to the appearance of the

Page 4043

1 various features in the photographs -- excuse me.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the photographs not be disclosed

4 publicly. I don't know if it's possible for the images on the ELMO not to

5 be broadcast.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd just wait for one second.

7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nothing that's on the ELMO will be shown to the

9 outside world until I give further orders that they can resume the normal

10 manipulation of the pictures.

11 You may put the picture on the ELMO, or just in front of the

12 witness, but I think on the ELMO would be better.

13 Mr. Usher, would you please turn the ELMO in the direction of the

14 witness so that she can see what's on the ELMO, and please put the...

15 Yes, please put it on the ELMO. Could you please guide the usher

16 in what photograph should be first put on the ELMO, Mr. Ierace. Would

17 that be the photograph with the number 4288 at the end, which is marked

18 with a letter B?

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.


21 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

22 Q. Did you make a statement to an investigator from the Prosecutor's

23 office on the 26th of September -- excuse me -- 2001?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the time you made the statement, were you shown the photograph

Page 4044

1 which is on the screen on your -- withdraw that. The photograph which is

2 on your right under the mirror?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I think you have two photographs in front of you; one shows a

5 house, and the other shows a yard. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, on the photograph which shows the house, did you

8 take a black pen and put some marks on it?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Whose house is that?

11 A. My parents' house, my house.

12 Q. You placed some marks over a balcony and a room underneath the

13 balcony. Was the balcony and the room underneath it there on the day that

14 you were shot?

15 A. No, they weren't. This was done later. This was built later.

16 Q. You said earlier that just before you were shot, you had been

17 playing. Can you see in this photograph the area where you had been

18 playing?

19 A. You mean to show you on the ELMO?

20 Q. Does the photograph show you the area where you were playing?

21 A. Yes, it does.

22 Q. Where was that area in relation to the room beneath the balcony?

23 A. [indicates].

24 Q. I think you're pointing to an area just to the left of the room as

25 one looks at the photograph. Is that correct? Is that where you were

Page 4045

1 playing?

2 A. Not quite. Not quite left of the room. The room is inside, but

3 it is just as you go in from the entrance door.

4 Q. Do you mean by that that you were playing in the area which, in

5 the photograph, has a room on it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Will you now please look at the other photograph, that

8 is, the one that ends with the number 4289. At the time that you made

9 your statement in September 2001, did you also place some marks on this

10 photograph?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. What does the photograph show?

13 A. The actual place from where the shot was fired.

14 Q. All right. But leaving aside the marks that you placed on the

15 photograph, and looking at the bottom of the photograph, you can see some

16 grass and a tree. Whereabouts was that grass and the tree?

17 A. They were in the same place, but it was much smaller.

18 Q. You mean the same place as the yard which appears in the first

19 photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is this, in fact, a photograph looking in the other direction,

22 that is, away from the house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you see in this photograph anywhere the area that you earlier

25 referred to as a spiky rock?

Page 4046

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you indicate that area with an arrow when you put some marks

3 on this photograph?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. The tree which is growing in the grass, was that as big on the day

6 that you were shot?

7 A. No, it was smaller.

8 Q. Does the line in red ink that you drew through the tree indicate

9 its approximate height at the time that you were shot?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Does the red line that is drawn through the other tree indicate

12 its approximate height, as well, on the day that you were shot?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is

16 for the transcript, for the record. There are several red lines, and I

17 believe Mr. Ierace has just spoken about another red line. So it seems

18 that it would be good enough for the record to say which red line exactly

19 we're talking about.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the first question was about the tree growing

21 in the grass. That explains one line. And then the next question was

22 about the red line that is drawn through the other tree, so I do not see

23 what misunderstanding there could be as a matter of fact.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


Page 4047

1 Q. So when you were shot and you were kneeling, were you facing

2 towards the spiky rock?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. So you had your back to the house?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe this is the same

7 objection as a moment ago. I'll going to rephrase it. The back was to

8 the house more or less --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have had time to rethink it. If

10 you would been on your knees kneeling, then it very often happens that the

11 back is in a horizontal position, which could be at one end at the wall,

12 but at another end be somewhere else. If the witness says more or less

13 the back was to the wall, that doesn't mean that the back of a person

14 kneeling is exclusively in one direction. So I deny your objection.

15 Please proceed.


17 Q. Can you be more precise as to the position you were in at the

18 instant that you were shot?

19 A. I can repeat: I was -- my back was facing the wall.

20 Q. I appreciate that, but can you tell us in what position your body

21 was in terms of standing or kneeling or squatting or whatever.

22 A. I was kneeling.

23 Q. All right. Why were you kneeling?

24 A. Because I was playing with the flowers.

25 Q. All right. Now, do you know where the bullet went after it left

Page 4048












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4049

1 your body?

2 A. Yes, it hit the wall. It ended in the wall.

3 Q. Did it leave a mark in the wall?

4 A. Yes, yes, the bullet remained in the wall.

5 Q. All right. Was there anything near you when you were kneeling

6 when you were shot? In other words, any part of the building or part --

7 or steps or anything of that nature?

8 A. There were steps.

9 Q. Where did the steps lead to?

10 A. They were going by the house, so by the place where I was, going

11 by the house, and then they were going to the street, towards the street.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, if it's convenient, I'd

13 like the video to be shown. As I indicated earlier, it has not yet been

14 redacted, and therefore it would be appropriate for it to be shown in

15 closed session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then go into closed session, and Madam

17 Registrar will tell us whenever we are in closed session.

18 [Closed session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4050

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4051

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are now in open session again. May I have a

8 confirmation that the face and voice distortion is still -- yes. I see

9 that it is.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


12 Q. Did you recognise yourself in the video that you just watched?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. The investigator asked you to point out a number of things. When

15 you pointed them out, were you doing so truthfully and to the best of your

16 recollection?

17 A. Yes, approximately. Yes, according to my recollection, the way I

18 remember it.

19 Q. What were you kneeling on at the time you were shot? Was it dirt

20 or something else?

21 A. Steps. There were steps.

22 Q. At some stage, although we don't see it on the video, did you see

23 the investigator appear to measure a distance from where you had told him

24 you were kneeling at the time that you were shot?

25 A. Yes. They measured, but I don't know what they were measuring.

Page 4052

1 Q. Now, on other days, days before this happened, had you seen people

2 walking through that yard where you were playing?

3 A. Yes, I was watching it right from the beginning of 1992 until the

4 end of the war.

5 Q. Did you sometimes see soldiers go through that yard?

6 A. Yes, but not in an organised manner, not in any way convoys. They

7 were just walking individually.

8 Q. Had you seen anyone travel through that yard on the morning that

9 you were shot before you were shot?

10 A. Yes. Before I went out, that's when I saw it. Yes.

11 Q. What did you see?

12 A. I saw civilians, children, everybody passed through there.

13 Q. On the morning before you went out to play, you said that you saw

14 something. Did you see any people passing through the yard before you

15 went out to play that morning?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who did you see that morning before you went out to play passing

18 through the yard?

19 A. There may have been a couple of soldiers.

20 Q. Did anyone pass through the yard while you were outside playing?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. How long were you playing for before you were shot approximately?

23 A. Perhaps an hour, hour and a half, maybe two. But certainly an

24 hour and a half.

25 Q. Had you realised before that day that it was possible to see the

Page 4053

1 spiky rock from that yard?

2 A. Yes, but only a small portion of it.

3 Q. Had you ever been shot at before that day while you were in that

4 same yard?

5 A. Not on that location.

6 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown again Exhibit P3273.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if before we do so, this would be a

8 suitable moment to have our next break, then perhaps we show the photo to

9 the witness after the break.

10 Miss E, we'll have a break for 20 minutes. We'll then resume, and

11 I hope we'll have not the same technical problems as we had before for

12 which I apologise. It's drawing our attention on things that are not the

13 most important things in this courtroom.

14 Mr. Ierace, may I invite you to inform the Court after the break

15 about the issue we raised just at the beginning of this session about the

16 92 bis.

17 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

19 We'll then have a break until 10 minutes to 6.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before resuming, Mr. Ierace, I would like to make a

23 remark first, and that's a remark concerning the interpretation. We

24 seriously have considered, in order to assist the interpreters, to go into

25 closed session, which would solve their problem. Finally, we decided not

Page 4054

1 to do so. We have great admiration for the way the interpreters, under

2 these difficult circumstances, are performing their task. I would like to

3 stress that and to emphasise that.

4 On the other hand, as we all know, the public character of the

5 trial is of such importance that it is prevailing in our view. And

6 therefore, with full understanding from the difficulties the interpreters

7 are facing at this moment and with great admiration with how they are

8 performing their task, we nevertheless decided we would stay in open

9 session.

10 Then perhaps before I give an opportunity to you, Mr. Ierace, to

11 make any remarks.

12 General Galic, I'm informed that the detention unit is, at this

13 moment, trying to make arrangements for tomorrow in the afternoon. If

14 that would not be possible, then it might Thursday morning, but everyone

15 is working on it.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please briefly inform the

18 Chamber. And in order to avoid whatever misunderstanding, this Chamber is

19 not of the view that 92 bis witnesses could not be heard in The Hague, but

20 the Chamber is of the opinion that if there would be any need for

21 cross-examination of the witness, then we would better use the presence of

22 the witness. That's the only reason why I made the remark. Please make

23 whatever observations you'd like to make in this respect.

24 MR. IERACE: I understand that that is the issue, Mr. President.

25 I've made some inquiries. There were two witnesses travelling to The

Page 4055

1 Hague this week in order to go through the 92 bis procedure. The first of

2 those was Oystein Strand who was an officer of the Royal Norwegian Air

3 Force. He arrived yesterday and is due to leave tonight. It's too late

4 for us to do anything in relation to him, as I understand it. In fact, I

5 have been recently told that he has left.

6 The second witness, Mr. Karel Lindr from the Czeck Republic is due

7 to arrive tomorrow at 3.00, and we are making efforts to try to change the

8 travel arrangements so that he comes at a later date. The reason is, we

9 already have sufficient witnesses this week to give evidence in The Hague

10 from Sarajevo, and we are working under some difficulty because of Bajram

11 to finish them so that they can return to Sarajevo by Friday morning at

12 the very latest.

13 So, Mr. President, that's why we are attempting to forestall

14 the arrival of Mr. Lindr so that we can take advantage of the Trial

15 Chamber's proposal at a later date.

16 Mr. President, two other matters, the first is related to that

17 issue: If it transpires that General Galic receives medical treatment on

18 Thursday morning, and if it also transpires that we will not be sitting

19 for all or a part of Thursday morning, I would be grateful it we could

20 have some forewarning of that. Again, so as to assist the Sarajevoian

21 witnesses to return in time for Bajram. If it transpires that one of

22 those witnesses is in the witness box, but has not finished their

23 testimony, then I would propose that subject to the requirements of the

24 Victims and Witness Unit, we take all possible to allow that witness to

25 return to Sarajevo, and then come back at a later date to finish their

Page 4056

1 evidence.

2 The third matter, Mr. President, just very briefly, in relation to

3 the software for your computers so that you can view the 360-degree

4 photographs, steps have been taken to make that software available. I'm

5 told that the most efficient way of doing it is to load it directly on to

6 your computers, and that would be done by technicians of the OTP. I

7 anticipate that that can probably be done by Thursday afternoon. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

12 giving me the floor. So we see that the problem is not a simple one; it

13 is a double problem, that is two witnesses and not one witness affected by

14 92 bis, and it surprises us all the more so because these persons are

15 people who were on UN mission there, and who are therefore of major

16 importance for the Defence. In a nutshell, the Defence, in principle,

17 does not accept that such statements be done in a manner prescribed by 92

18 bis, and we most emphatically oppose such procedure. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was aware from your submissions that you are

20 opposing mainly the 92 bis. One of the issues I had, first of all,

21 whenever Mr. Lindr come, perhaps a later date, could there be some kind

22 of arrangement that the Defence is informed prior to giving a statement

23 outside this courtroom and immediately provided with a statement so that

24 if, for example, he would stay for another half a day or a day, that if

25 good cause is shown why he should be cross-examined, that we could give a

Page 4057

1 decision right away and then perhaps call Mr. Lindr at that very moment.

2 One of the things, at least that is of some consolation to me, is that

3 both witnesses are able to travel on their own and not need the assistance

4 of the Victims and Witnesses Unit. At least they are not escorted by the

5 Registry to and from The Hague.

6 There's another issue I'd like to draw the attention to from the

7 Defence. If it would turn out that General Galic would be examined

8 physically on Thursday morning, would the Defence consider -- of course,

9 dependent on where we are with the witness that is examined at that very

10 moment, whether we could finish or not even without the presence of

11 General Galic, and if there would come a point where the Defence would

12 say, well, this is specifically a point on which we would have to consult

13 our client, would you please consider it?

14 Perhaps it might not be necessary at all if it could be dealt with

15 on Wednesday in the afternoon, there would be no problem at all. But if,

16 for example, you would have half an hour remaining for one of the

17 witnesses or -- would you please consider what to do under these

18 circumstances if it would turn out to be necessary to have General Galic

19 be examined on Thursday morning. I will not in whatever way infringe upon

20 any right to be present during the trial. So it's not urging you, but

21 just to consider it, depending on the circumstances.

22 Then I see you nodding, so I...

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe, Mr. President,

24 we shall perhaps try to see with what you have told us, we shall try to

25 inform the Chamber as soon as possible. I believe that in principle,

Page 4058

1 there will be no difficulty because it could be obviously a very short

2 interruption. Thank you.


4 Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have in mind that we should be able

6 to stick to the seven-day rule in relation to Mr. Lindr. In relation to

7 his statements, I informed the Defence in writing late last year that we

8 intended to seek to convey the evidence of Mr. Lindr and also Mr. Strand

9 by way of 92 bis, so I'm sure that's not a surprise to my friend. And the

10 statements have also already been served, but, of course, we will treat

11 them in the usual fashion so there will be seven days' notice of when that

12 will be here. Excuse me, Mr. President.

13 I've just been informed that it's not possible at this late stage

14 to cancel Mr. Lindr's travel arrangements. We have attempted in the last

15 hour to do that so that becomes academic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So we will see when he returns, if there's good cause

17 shown that he should be cross-examined, he'll have to return. We'll

18 decide on that. If on Thursday morning we have any extra time, I

19 indicated to you before that an oral hearing, I think it was especially

20 the 92 bis, could take place at any suitable moment when there are no

21 witnesses. So would you please, as I asked you before, be prepared to

22 have oral arguments on the 92 bis issue, and I think it would be proper to

23 provide the Chamber, then, with the 92 bis statements that you intend to

24 use in Court because several of the criteria of 92 bis require the Chamber

25 to have a look in the statements as such.

Page 4059












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4060

1 Ms. Pilipovic.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence

3 apologises in advance for what I'm about to say, but bearing in mind the

4 duration of this case, as the lead counsel, I have asked to leave on

5 Thursday morning, and I have been authorised to travel. On Thursday, if

6 there are any witnesses, my distinguished co-counsel will be here, and

7 then the trial will go on as it has started. But I would like to voice my

8 wish to -- for us to be both present during the argument about Rule 92

9 bis. I thought I would notify you at the end of today, because I should

10 be leaving on Thursday morning. Now I understand that the argument about

11 92 bis could be on Thursday, and I would dearly like, if possible, to

12 schedule it for some other day when both Mr. Piletta-Zanin and I are here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll keep that in mind, and we'll give full

14 consideration to the wish you just expressed. If you would come up with

15 any suggestion how to use our time then on Thursday as good as we can, I

16 gave you to consider, even to continue, even when General Galic would not

17 be present, although I'm hesitant to do so. But just consider what you

18 could do in order not to waste any time. I think that's what we all try

19 to do in this courtroom, and I'm really convinced that you'll assist us as

20 good as you can.

21 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the 92 bis statements are taken in the

23 Bosnian language. We are taking steps to obtain translations. In the

24 most part, the original statement will suffice, but in a few cases where

25 there is some additional information, I at least anticipate that I will

Page 4061

1 have an informal translation of at least those additional parts

2 available --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's wise, Mr. Ierace, since Ms. Pilipovic

4 will not be present and would like to attend the oral argument, and since

5 you are not fully prepared yet as far as the translation is concerned that

6 we just take our time and do it somewhere next week or the week afterwards

7 in order not to fall into any sloppy performance of what we have to do in

8 this courtroom.

9 MR. IERACE: In any event, Mr. President, I anticipate that the

10 witnesses we have lined up will take us to Thursday afternoon at this

11 stage.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we use our time in that way.

13 Ms. Pilipovic, anything to add?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think we then could resume the examination of

16 Witness E.

17 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness into the courtroom.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will take the witness to the

19 360-degree photograph. And for the same reason, may that photograph not

20 be displayed publicly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We did not give any order in respect of any

22 pictures of -- put on the ELMO to be broadcasted to the outside world.

23 Could I ask the assistance of the technical booth that the computer

24 evidence which will now be shown by the case manager of the Prosecution

25 will not be broadcasted out of this courtroom.

Page 4062

1 Yes. This being the case, Mr. Ierace, when the witness is brought

2 in, you may proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. I have

4 to notify the Chamber that we have just talked with General Galic and he

5 says that he would like to be present in the courtroom at all times when

6 the witness testimonies go on. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We have full respect for this position taken by

8 General Galic. So we'll not continue in his absence.

9 Miss E, you had to wait even some 20 more minutes since we had not

10 only technical problems, but also some legal technical issues we had to

11 discuss. Please be seated. And Mr. Ierace will now resume the

12 questioning.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the 360-degree photograph

14 be displayed. As always, I think the best picture is on the "computer

15 evidence" button.



18 Q. Do you recognise the view which appears on your monitor at the

19 moment?

20 A. I have nothing before me. It's okay. It's all right now.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was whether you recognised what

22 you see on the screen at this moment.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.


25 Q. Does that appear to be a view of the yard in front of your house?

Page 4063

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. And I think we can also see another house which has a white wall

3 in front of that yard. Is that correct? In front of your front yard?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. IERACE: Please manoeuvre the picture to the right slowly.

6 Pause for a moment.

7 Q. Do we see now the doorway and the door of the addition to the

8 front of your house?

9 A. We do.

10 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the picture.

11 Please pause.

12 Q. Do we now see the wall of the house, that is, it is now an

13 internal wall of the addition?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Do you see on the wall of the house the yellow paint marks that

16 were made by the investigator, as seen on the video?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The yellow circle indicates the approximate position that the

19 bullet hit the wall. Is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. The yellow line underneath it indicates the height of the steps.

22 Is that correct?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And the yellow line at the bottom indicates the ground level on

25 the day that you were shot. Is that correct?

Page 4064

1 A. It is.

2 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the photograph to the right.

3 Please pause.

4 Q. Now, when people travelled through your yard, did they come from

5 the view that we see on the screen at the moment, which is towards the

6 left from the doorway of the addition?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the photograph.

9 Please pause.

10 Q. I think we are now back where we started; that is, looking at the

11 front yard from the doorway of the addition. Having regard to the

12 photographs that you have already seen in this courtroom, do we see,

13 between the roofs of the two houses, towards the centre of the photograph,

14 the area known as - and please pardon my pronunciation - Spicasta Stijena?

15 A. Yes, I can see it.

16 Q. All right.

17 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the photograph could be zoomed in on that

18 area.

19 Q. Do we now see that area zoomed in?

20 A. Yes, I see it.

21 Q. At the time that -- on the date that you were shot, the armed

22 conflict was taking place in Sarajevo. Is that correct?

23 A. No, there was no conflict.

24 Q. I'm not so much speaking about that particular day, but that was

25 one of the years during which there was fighting around Sarajevo. Is that

Page 4065

1 correct?

2 A. That it is, yes.

3 Q. Spicasta Stijena appears to be, from the photograph, a ridge at

4 least. On which side of the confrontation line was the ridge, that is,

5 the very top of the ridge that one can see in the photograph?

6 A. I don't understand what you mean.

7 Q. Do you understand that the two armies, the two principal armies

8 that were involved in the conflict were the army for the Bosnian

9 government --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object

12 because once he speaks of the two chief armies, and we know there were

13 several, and this is a purely subjective opinion that there were two

14 principal armies.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, not once in the now months of evidence

19 has the Defence challenged the evidence of a very large number of

20 witnesses to the effect that there were two principal armies involved.

21 Not once has that been done, even though it's required, if this is the

22 position of the Defence if they do so, by Rule 90. I am surprised to hear

23 that, against that background, it is still an issue, particularly when one

24 considers the content of the Defence pre-trial brief which is precisely to

25 the same effect.

Page 4066

1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond to that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is

3 quite true that, in general, we admit that there were two more important

4 armies, and yet there are times -- there were times when the Croat forces

5 were more better structured than the Bosnian forces, generally speaking,

6 and to say simply which army or which armies, that is all why it can be

7 said.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is my recollection that there has been a

9 considerable number of questions put to witnesses in order to find out

10 where the confrontation lines were, but there was no question about

11 whether there were three armies or four or five or six at the

12 confrontation line. Is there any specific reason -- I mean, also it might

13 not be that difficult to rephrase the question. And I could even order

14 the Prosecution to do so. And I'm quite willing to do it, but on the

15 other hand, of course, it comes into my mind what actually is at this

16 moment the relevance of I would say importing a third, fourth, or fifth

17 party to this question?

18 But perhaps, Mr. Ierace, since I do not see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin

19 is giving -- apart from that, I must say that, during the last couple of

20 days, a third party has been introduced in the objections one or two

21 times. So if you could rephrase the question, and if Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

22 sustaining the objection, would consider next time the importance of his

23 objection. Please proceed.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fact, if my friend checks my

25 question at page 76, line 7, he will see that the wording was: "The two

Page 4067

1 principal armies." I therefore fail to understand the objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you still persist by your

3 objection?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must say yes,

5 but to say yes, I must discover their position. If you authorise me to do

6 so, I will do that. For instance -- may I continue?

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we are wasting a lot of time on an issue

8 which could be easily solved without a lot of explanations. I'll put one

9 or two questions to the witness at this very moment.

10 Miss E, you know sometimes there are some legal technical issues

11 as well. You have referred to the rock you mentioned before. Do you know

12 if this rock was under the control of an army at the time of the incident?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what army that was or how you would

15 refer to that army.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably the army of the Republika

17 Srpska.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


20 Q. You told us earlier that when you were being driven to hospital,

21 that the car came under fire. Was the car actually hit by any bullets?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which part of the car?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.

25 A. The back of the car was hit.

Page 4068


2 Q. At the time that the car was hit, how long had it been moving

3 approximately?

4 A. Under a minute.

5 Q. At the time that the car was hit, if you had turned around and

6 looked out the rear window, would it have been possible to see Spicasta

7 Stijena?

8 A. Yes. And very clearly.

9 Q. During the armed conflict, did any shells land in the vicinity of

10 your house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the year 1993, did any shells land in the vicinity of your

13 house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During 1993 did any shells hit your house?

16 A. Yes, they did.

17 Q. Approximately how many times during the conflict was your house

18 hit?

19 A. Three times, three or four times.

20 Q. How many times -- withdraw that. When was the first time that a

21 shell hit your house?

22 A. In early 1993.

23 Q. Was it hit again in 1993?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many times?

Page 4069

1 A. In 1993, twice.

2 Q. Was your father in the army during the armed conflict?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was your mother in the army?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you have any brothers or sisters?

7 A. Yes, a sister.

8 Q. Was she in the army?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was there any military equipment in your house during the armed

11 conflict?

12 A. No.

13 Q. On the day, indeed at the time that you were shot, was there

14 anyone else at all in the yard apart from yourself?

15 A. In the yard, no.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown

17 Exhibit P1025.

18 Mr. President, that document has the witness's signature on it, I

19 anticipate. So perhaps --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if it's not necessary to put it on the ELMO,

21 we would rather leave it at this moment, although there is still the order

22 that nothing from the ELMO and also from the computer evidence will be --

23 MR. IERACE: I don't think it's necessary, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


Page 4070












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4071

1 Q. Do you recognise the document in front of you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that a medical report in relation to the treatment that you

4 received as a result of being shot?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might that be returned, and I ask the

7 witness be shown Exhibit P3243.

8 I don't require that to be placed on the ELMO either,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, it has been protected, the document,

11 as well, if it would finally end up on the ELMO. Will there be any other

12 documents to be tendered because we could then put it on the ELMO since it

13 has been prepared for not showing the identity of the witness.

14 MR. IERACE: This is the last document. I don't require it to be

15 put on the ELMO, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we rather not do it at this moment.

17 Mr. Usher, would you please give it to the witness and not put it

18 on the ELMO.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


21 Q. Did you make a statement to the investigators in June 2001, that

22 is, last year?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the time that you made your statement, did you place some marks

25 with a red pen on a map?

Page 4072

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Did you then sign the map?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Is it in front of you now?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. Did you place a cross on the map to indicate approximately the

7 position of your house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you place some crossed lines on the map to indicate the

10 approximate position of Spicasta Stijena?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you place the number 2 in a circle alongside that position?

13 A. I did.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

16 Before I'll ask the Defence whether they are prepared for the

17 cross-examination of the witness, I'd like to have one intermediary

18 question at this very moment.

19 Miss E, you told you this Spicasta Stijena was probably under the

20 control of the army of Republika Srpska. You said "probably." What made

21 you believe that it was probably under the control of the army of the

22 Republika Srpska? Could you tell us?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably because it isn't very far

24 from the house to the Spicasta Stijena, it is easy to make this

25 conclusion. When provocation start, there would be shouting, there would

Page 4073

1 be swearing, cursing.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean that you could hear from your house

3 shouting from that specific place?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And how could you identify who was shouting, or could

6 you tell us the words that were shouted?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would be swear words mostly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And how could you know exactly against whom these

9 words were? Could you just give us one or two examples, then? It might

10 be easier to understand for you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For instance, during the -- if

12 it was raining, many of them -- many people were using the rain water for

13 water. So I'm sorry for the words that I'm going to use, so what they

14 would say is balijas, trying and catch the rain. You will need it to wash

15 your ass."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's quite clear. Thank you very much.

17 Ms. Pilipovic, or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to

18 cross-examine the witness?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank

20 you.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. I thank you for being

23 here. If this is the case, could you confirm that you did give a

24 statement on the 27th of June, 2001 here in The Hague, it seems to me.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4074

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Witness, I'm going to return to the facts, but before that I would

3 like to ask the Chamber.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we seem to be

5 facing a new problem, which is to do with Rule 91 of the rules. I believe

6 that this Rule is giving the Defence the opportunity to ask the Chamber to

7 tell the witness -- to remind the witness of the necessity to speak the

8 truth. I don't know whether this is necessary in this case.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just give me one second,

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to Rule 91(A). As far as I can

13 see, could you please start your cross-examination up until a moment

14 where -- or if you indicated already during the examination-in-chief there

15 are serious reasons to give a warning as referred to in 91(A), please tell

16 the Court so that we can...

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Simply

18 because there are certain -- there's a testimony which was given today

19 which isn't consistent with the written testimony of another day. So

20 basically on this principle, I think that it is up to the Chamber to see

21 whether this is necessary.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'll do it in the following way: Miss E, the counsel

23 for the Defence has indicated that he has found contradictions between

24 what you said before, giving a statement, and what your answers were on

25 the questions put to you today by the Prosecutor. You well understand

Page 4075

1 that if you say today this is what the truth is, then you're doing the

2 right thing. If you say, no, what was -- I might have forgotten something

3 or what I said earlier was the truth, then just inform this Chamber. I'm

4 just stressing to you that it's of vital importance that whenever you have

5 any doubt or whenever you don't remember anything, please tell us. And if

6 you give your testimony to the best of your recollection, and in

7 conformity with the solemn declaration you gave.

8 I have not seen any of your earlier statements, so I do not know

9 whether Mr. Piletta-Zanin is right in assuming that there are

10 contradictions. But just answer to the best of your recollection whatever

11 questions put to you by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and that's what we expect you

12 to do.

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 This was done in a very objective way, and I thank you for it.

16 Q. Now, Witness, you said in line 10, to be precise, of page 61, that

17 the bullet which went through your body remained in the wall. You

18 declared this, and this is what I am quoting from the English transcript.

19 Do you confirm this, what you said today?

20 A. Yes. The bullet remained in the wall. But when we returned, it

21 had probably fallen out of the wall, so we couldn't establish exactly

22 which bullet it was because there were several bullets. There were many

23 bullets on the floor.

24 Q. Because, Witness, I believe that you said at the time that the

25 bullet did not remain in the wall, but it had ricochetted, and I'm talking

Page 4076

1 about your written statement. Is that correct?

2 A. No, that's not what I said.

3 Q. Very well.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to

5 have to read. I'm going to have to read, if you authorise me, according

6 to the procedure that we have already had before part of the statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you provide the statement to the interpreters'

8 booth?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I here have a statement in

10 English that I can read, and then the interpreters can interpret it so --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please read.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 The line says the following, and I'm going to read it in

14 English.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Miss E, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is now reading in the exact

16 wording as it is written down in your statement given before to the

17 investigators. Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have before me the English

19 transcript, which says the following, and I am quoting: "We didn't keep

20 the bullet which had hit me. It wasn't in the wall, so it must have

21 ricochetted off and fallen somewhere."

22 [Interpretation] End of quote.

23 Q. So I'll just ask you a question. If you said that this bullet had

24 ricochetted and when went off somewhere, and you said no. So could you

25 perhaps explain what seems to the Defence to be a contradiction.

Page 4077

1 A. So I'm going to tell you what happened. The bullet hit the wall,

2 and it stayed in the wall. But when we returned, it wasn't completely in

3 the wall, not fully. It was not a deep hole in the wall. It fell out.

4 And because of previous firing, there was shrapnel, there were bullets,

5 there were all kinds of things on the floor. So where did not know which

6 one of the bullets had been the one. But the bullet had hit the wall, and

7 then fell out.

8 Q. So I understand that it had fallen out, but it had not

9 ricochetted. Is that correct?

10 A. No, it didn't ricochet.

11 Q. Thank you very much for specifying this.

12 How can you be absolutely certain if there were several hits,

13 bullets, that this was the one in question, that this was the bullet in

14 question?

15 A. Yes, there were traces from bullets on all the wall, but not at

16 the lower half of the house. This bullet that we saw was the first time

17 we saw it then. In fact, I saw it straight away because it was very low.

18 It was very low on that wall of the house.

19 Q. Witness, I believe you said -- I think I heard you say in your own

20 language that there were -- there were several bullet cases on the floor,

21 and shrapnel. Is that correct?

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: Perhaps my learned colleague could take us to the

25 passage where this witness said there were several bullet cases on the

Page 4078

1 floor and shrapnel.

2 JUDGE ORIE: What I read in the English translation,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is that "... And because of previous firing, there was

4 shrapnel, there were bullets, there were all kinds of things on the

5 floor."

6 Of course, it can be a matter of translation, whether there were

7 any cases on the floor. Could I just ask the interpreters whether any of

8 the interpreters heard the word "bullet cases"?

9 I do not get a positive answer.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

11 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear that. I was listening to the -- so

12 please, then, proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was yes from the French booth.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Yes. Witness, since there were bullets cases on the floor, so

16 there was firing from that spot?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I appreciate that you have been told

19 by the French booth that they heard the word "cases." It doesn't appear

20 in the English translation --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it's clear that this is a translation

22 problem.

23 MR. IERACE: I simply ask that it be clarified with the witness

24 before my friend presumes that is the evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you first seek

Page 4079

1 confirmation of the answer given by the --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask my question

3 again.

4 Q. Witness, what I heard, I believe that you said, that you spoke --

5 that there were bits from bullets. Is that correct? And you spoke of --

6 A. There were bullets and there was shrapnel.

7 Q. Thank you very much for this specification, Witness. I'm going to

8 return to the military question. So you were not able to know --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for rising to my feet

11 again. This is a very important issue. My friend has put to the witness

12 that there were bullet cases. And that indicates that the bullets were

13 fired from the spot. And I asked him, out of fairness, to clarify that,

14 and he has not done that.


16 Miss E, you told us there were a lot of things on the ground.

17 Were there bullet cases on the ground?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were not bullet cases.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please tell us exactly what was on the

20 ground.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shrapnel from the shells that had

22 landed around the house before, and casings that were falling on the

23 roof. They were shells. These are leftovers from bullets. You could see

24 it all over during the war, everywhere.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did I understand you well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

Page 4080

1 that you wanted to cover a new subject now. Because it's 10 minutes to

2 7.00, and if this would be a suitable moment to adjourn.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can perfectly

4 stop here if the Chamber authorise me and I can continue tomorrow with the

5 witness. How long are we allowed to stay here, is it 7.00 or quarter to

6 7.00?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm mistaken. We can go on until 7.00.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Had an early

10 break today. That's my normal sense of time seems to be lost. Please

11 proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm

13 continuing.

14 Q. Witness, thank you for the clarifications. You said that your

15 father was in the Territorial Defence. Can you confirm that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did your father have a rank in his military unit?

18 A. No, he didn't.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the evidence was that her

21 father was in the army. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is what was my recollection

23 as well.

24 Was your father in the army or in the Territorial Defence, Miss E,

25 or is it the same to you?

Page 4081












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4082

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all the same, everyone was in

2 the army at the beginning of the war. Everything was called Territorial

3 Defence, and then a couple of months later it was all called BH army. So

4 he was just like the others. And I would like both parties -- I don't

5 want any questions asked about the army because I'm not going to reply.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence is certainly

8 taking the point.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give the opportunity now to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to

10 continue the cross-examination, and we'll see what happens. But as a

11 general rule, you have to answer the questions. And whether there's any

12 difficulty, just let me know because you're addressing the parties now.

13 Just let me know and I'll try to solve whatever problem there might be.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

16 Q. Witness, you just said that you did not want to answer questions

17 to do with the armies. What is the reason?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I don't allow any questions on

19 this issue at this very moment. Please put the questions you have to do

20 to the witness -- yes, please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

22 Q. Witness, you did not answer to my previous question. You said did

23 your father have a rank in his military organisation, please?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer.

Page 4083

1 Witness, you just said that for you, the Territorial Defence was

2 the same thing as the army. Could you please clarify this or give more

3 precision?

4 A. For this reason; because they were all on the same side. They

5 were all fighting for one thing.

6 Q. Witness, in one and in the other, in both entities, the

7 Territorial Defence and the army, the soldiers or the members of the

8 Defence, did they have regular uniforms?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the question be specific as to the

13 year, since we've all heard evidence in the Trial Chamber that the

14 situation varied from year to year. Thank you.


16 Miss E, may I just ask you, you just answered a question about

17 uniforms. Could you tell us perhaps in more detail. Could you see any

18 distinction between BiH army soldiers or military people and Territorial

19 Defence people?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think -- not I think but I know

21 that. In the war, the uniforms were camouflage, all the same that the

22 whole world has. They all looked the same. Some had green, some had

23 blue. I was a child. How do I know who was wearing what? The civilians

24 were wearing camouflage clothes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly the answer. Please proceed, Mr.

Page 4084

1 Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, you said yourself that at the time of the incident, that

4 is, in [redacted] --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think we did not refer to the

6 date of -- and Madam Registrar, could you please make a redaction in that

7 sense.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise, Mr.

9 President. Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, at the moment, at the time of the incident that you know

11 the date of, you said that you were wearing a jacket which was blue. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes. Dark blue.

14 Q. Very well. Which colour were the uniforms that we were speaking a

15 moment ago in opposition to the other uniforms that we were calling

16 camouflage uniforms?

17 A. There were all kinds of colours. If I -- you mean if I had been a

18 soldier, a child of a few years of age with long hair?

19 Q. Madam, I am not saying anything; I'm just asking a question. If

20 you can answer, please answer; if you cannot answer, then do not answer.

21 Things are very simple.

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... please address

24 me, and I'll see how we'll solve the problem. Yes, just be confident.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to answer that

Page 4085

1 question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin was whether you

3 know about the colours of the uniforms the military people were wearing.

4 And I felt from your answer that you feel a bit, perhaps, attacked,

5 because your answer says that more or less would you compare a small child

6 with a soldier, a small child with long hair, a girl. I fully understand

7 your reaction, but if you could tell us what the colour of the uniforms

8 was, I can assure you that this Court is perfectly well in a position to

9 assess whether the colour you will mention could have created whatever

10 confusion. We'll have to assess that at a later stage. But could you

11 answer the question what the colours were of the military camouflage

12 uniforms, uniforms you just described.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Blue, green, yellow, white

14 camouflage; all these colours. Black.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

18 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. The colour blue that you had

19 is one thing, and you said you were wearing jeans. So could I ask you to

20 tell us what was the colour of the trousers that you were wearing at the

21 time of the incident?

22 A. Blue; navy blue, dark blue. It was a dark colour.

23 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection, do you think that the

24 top and the bottom of what you were wearing were, in a sense, a set?

25 A. No.

Page 4086

1 Q. The two blues were completely different?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you for this answer.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I would like to continue

5 but perhaps, Mr. President, this is a good time for break. As you wish.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think this is a good time to adjourn.

7 Miss E, we'll continue tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. And don't

8 worry, we'll find a way for you to answer the questions put to you.

9 Whenever there's any difficulty, we'll find a solution for that. I hope

10 you're confident that we'll achieve this.

11 Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Just for the record, Mr. President, again my friend

13 has misrepresented the evidence. He said that the witness had earlier

14 stated she was wearing jeans. The relevant page and line is page 49, line

15 6, where he said she was wearing dark trousers and a blue jacket.

16 But perhaps we could take that further tomorrow morning,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps before we adjourn, could the usher lead

19 the witness out of the courtroom.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Ierace, I experienced a

22 lot of procedural incidents of which I thought not all of them to be

23 necessary. I urge the parties to always consider fully what is the aim of

24 these procedural incidents, whether they will serve the interest of the

25 party in the best way since I have the feeling now and then that it causes

Page 4087

1 more interventions from my side than I would wish to make.

2 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

5 the 20th day of February, 2000, at 9.00 a.m.