Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4196

1 Thursday, 21 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Madam registrar, would you please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Before we resume the

10 examination of witnesses, I'd like to make a few remarks. First of all,

11 General Galic, you're here -- I'm glad you're here. I'm well informed

12 some care has been taken of your problem yesterday evening.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't have the

14 interpretation. But I understood what you were asking me, so I will

15 answer. I hope I understood you properly. The prison doctor came to

16 see me last night. He knows me well. He has treated me. And during this

17 six months, he has managed to put me right. That is, I started walking

18 within six months. So I trust him. But the most important thing is I

19 don't want to waste too much of your time. But he said that because of

20 the problems that I have, that I should be provided here a type of an

21 armchair with an adjusted back so that I could rest my spine, because it

22 is four or five hours that I have to sit here.

23 Secondly, that in the cell -- I mean here in the Tribunal, as I

24 wait, that I should be provided with a bed or again, a special armchair so

25 that I could have a rest.

Page 4197

1 Thirdly, that if I suddenly turn ill here, that there should be a

2 nurse here who could give me an injection whenever necessary, that I

3 should not be administered any stronger medicines than at present because

4 it might affect my ability to follow the proceedings.

5 Fifthly, he said that he would continue to consult with a

6 neurosurgeon with regard to the operation and my general state of health

7 because these three injuries -- these three spine injuries are quite

8 questionable, quite difficult.

9 And finally, we also talked about exercises which I should do. I

10 do do exercises regularly, those which I can. And he said that he would

11 convey it all to Mr. McFadden, so I'm seizing this opportunity to tell you

12 all that happened, and that would be, in the nutshell, the conversation I

13 had with the doctor during and after the examination last night. So thank

14 you very much for your concern. I shall do my very best to be present at

15 the proceedings invariably, in spite of the difficulty that I have or

16 may have. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So we understand. We cannot solve your problems.

18 The only thing we can do is to see that proper care is taken. If there's

19 ever any need to inform us about health problems that are not properly

20 taken care of, please inform the Chamber immediately.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

23 The second remark I'd like to make concerns the interpretation.

24 Now and then we have some discussions about translations in either English

25 or French, and perhaps sometimes differences of -- a few words that fall

Page 4198

1 out. These discussions, we have them only because we have to do our

2 utmost best to avoid any misunderstandings. At the same time, we have a

3 great appreciation and admiration for the work the interpreters are

4 doing. And during five hours a day translating simultaneously for people

5 who very often have difficulties in slowing down is -- well, let me use

6 the words, it's a hell of a job. And it's done by human beings. And of

7 course we can't expect that it's always 100 per cent. If it's 99.5 per

8 cent, that's already a great performance. And I'd just like to let you

9 know that we are aware of it, and I hope you have understanding for the

10 fact that whenever we see something which is -- well, within this last

11 half per cent, that we have to take -- we have to pay attention to it.

12 But it has got nothing to do with a lack of appreciation and a lack of

13 admiration for the task you are performing.

14 Then the third thing I'd like to do is to ask especially from

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin during the cross-examination of Mejra Jusovic who will

16 enter the courtroom soon, to be very well aware of the fragility of this

17 witness at this moment. As you see in the courtroom, there is a second

18 chair next to the chair of the witness. That is because I allowed someone

19 of the Victims and Witnesses Unit to sit next to her when

20 necessary, even hold her hand, but of course not interfere in the

21 cross-examination. You'll understand that it will not in any way affect

22 the right of the Defence. But on the other hand, I have to take care that

23 this witness will finally not come out with more perhaps psychological

24 injuries where I think she had -- she has suffered already, a lot in the

25 past. And I ask special attention to that from Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 4199

1 I think then, Mr. Usher --

2 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

4 giving me the floor. Good morning. Perhaps before the witness is brought

5 in, I should like to make three technical comments which I think have to

6 be dealt with before everything else. I begin about what you said last.

7 It is evident, I believe, that you have all noted that the Defence when it

8 interrogates, always does it with respect here. Mainly we always do it

9 with the full respect for the witness. And we shall try to abide by the

10 same principle and today even more than we did yesterday.

11 My second point, Mr. President, has to do with a technical

12 problem. I believe that we have received information about a map which

13 was shown yesterday which we're asking about the origin of the map, what

14 was the source, a technical one, because we only have the central part of

15 the original document, and we're also asking the scale, the date, and all

16 the other technical coordinates. I am raising this question because this

17 matter was not resolved yesterday.

18 And the third point that I wish to raise is the following:

19 Yesterday in the afternoon or late afternoon, I believe, we received a

20 ruling signed by Mr. Bruno Cathala, authorising the appointment on

21 [indiscernible] Who was to make a statement with regard to the Article 92

22 bis. And we received this statement. I wish to say that the Defence has

23 not yet spoken on the principle regarding the possibility of admitting

24 specifically a report, or rather, this document which comes under Article

25 92 bis. And the Defence is somewhat at a loss because we see that the

Page 4200

1 decisions are being taken, whereas we have not yet tackled the --

2 addressed the principle. So we do not know whether this will become the

3 [indiscernible]. And before it is done, I'm afraid that we are putting

4 the cart before the horse. It seems because this matter has not been

5 resolved in principle.

6 And fourthly, the fourth matter I wish to raise is the

7 interpretation. Of course I do not want to question the quality of the

8 interpreters and the work that they perform every day, which is very

9 difficult work, and it is precisely because it is difficult that mistakes

10 may -- may happen. And that is why we are formally asking, Mr. President,

11 that -- it to be made possible to relisten the passages of the tapes,

12 which I will point out to the registrar, if you allow us. And,

13 specifically, if there are some passages, the passage concerning the

14 witness that we heard yesterday and who I believe spoke about bullet

15 casings, rather, and bullets in the garden or in the yard, that is what I

16 believe I heard in this language. But I'm not entirely positive about

17 this.

18 And then the last witness that we had yesterday, it had to do with

19 the fragment when she said that her husband was bearing arms. These are

20 the things that are not entirely clear, and perhaps this point 90 -- point

21 something per cent of the mistake that is we find in the rendition of

22 interpretation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... May expect that

24 the Prosecution will pay proper attention to that.

25 As far as the third remark you made, we are bound by our own

Page 4201

1 rules. That means that in the order of proceeding in 92 bis is that the

2 statements first are obtained. That's what was referred to yesterday

3 already by Mr. Ierace, which might be all not under all circumstance be

4 the most satisfactory solution. But these are the rules at the moment.

5 So this Chamber is seized by the 92 bis statements as soon as a request is

6 there to have them admitted as evidence in this courtroom. And I can tell

7 you that since we received the copy of the objections made until now by

8 the Defence, that -- especially yesterday afternoon, I paid special

9 attention how to proceed in this matter so that we can deal with it as

10 soon as possible, as I indicated already in this courtroom.

11 Then your fourth remark, I am not well aware of the -- of the

12 procedure on how to consult the audio recording of the hearings.

13 Madam Registrar, could you inform me exactly what the procedure

14 is, if Mr. Piletta-Zanin would like to hear in the original language one

15 or two parts of the audio recordings.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The request would go to the office of Legal Aid

17 and Detention.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where to

19 address your request. And if there's any problem in having access to the

20 audio record of the hearings, I'd like to know.

21 THE REGISTRAR: There is a specific form you can request from

22 Laurent in OLAD with the date of the recording you require.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Living in a good bureaucracy, you see, there is a

24 form that you --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, excuse me,

Page 4202












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4203

1 Mr. President. So as to make everything quite clear, I will do that. I

2 will ask it. But in the future, if our remarks are not quite right, if

3 it turns out that our remarks were not completely wrong and that the

4 witness pronounced the word "cartridge casing," and that the other one

5 spoke about her husband Alta, will it be possible to correct the

6 transcript, be it in French or in English?

7 JUDGE ORIE: So I'll seek proper information on how to do it. And

8 as you know, usually I go to the registrar and see how it's technically

9 done. But I'll take care that if it has been established that the

10 translation was not complete or in every detail correct, and if you have

11 drawn our attention to it, if it has been verified that one way or the

12 other, but the transcript will be -- will be redacted.

13 Having dealt with all the -- these problems, I think it's now time

14 to ask the usher to bring Mejra Jusovic, accompanied by someone from the

15 Victims and Witnesses Unit.

16 Oh, let me just make one final remark: I noticed also that the 92

17 bis witness who has given a statement yesterday, I expect that -- is the

18 statement available already, or -- and is the witness still in the seat of

19 the Tribunal?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the statement, in fact, has been

21 available for some time. That is, the English version. The Defence has a

22 copy of that. The difficulty with applying the proposed procedure to this

23 witness is, as I explained two days ago, that we have the backlog of

24 Sarajevoen witnesses who are able to return for --


Page 4204

1 MR. IERACE: And so even if we were to obtain a ruling from the

2 Trial Chamber in respect of Mr. Lindr and that ruling require him to

3 give viva voce evidence, we could only do that in -- to the Sarajevoen

4 witnesses.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll have to deal with it in the near

6 future and we cannot do it today.

7 MR. IERACE: I can tell you that the first witness beyond Mr.

8 Kucanin is a witness who was to be dealt be by way of 92

9 is and with made him viva voce because of The opportunity available to us

10 next week, that is Mr. Harding.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mrs. Jugovic.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Jugovic, The Chamber is fully aware of how

17 difficult it is for you to testify in this courtroom. On the other hand,

18 the Chamber hopes that you understand how important it is for us to hear

19 from those who have been present. It's already a long time ago in

20 Sarajavo on what happened exactly.

21 We allowed you to be accompanied by someone of the Victims and

22 Witnesses Unit, but it's not just her who's sitting next to you. Whenever

23 there is any problem, please let me know immediately, and we'll take

24 proper care. If you do not understand a question or if you say, "I need

25 time to think," we're all there to assist you and believe me, your

Page 4205

1 presence is of importance for us. I don't think it will take a long

2 time. I think it will just take, perhaps, 10 or 15 minutes. So if you're

3 ready to answer the questions, then Mr. Piletta-Zanin, who is Defence

4 counsel, will put some additional questions to you.

5 Yes? You are ready?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, thank you for giving me

11 the floor once again.

12 Witness, good morning.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Thank you, madam. I want to personally wish you welcome in this

15 courtroom.

16 A. Thank you. I'm very sorry that it happened the way it happened.

17 I really was upset about that.

18 Q. Yes. Everybody can speak, and everybody here understood, and

19 that includes General Galic. Everybody here understood what you felt and

20 what you could feel. But there are certain questions which I have to ask

21 you about matters which are quite neutral, so you can answer them without

22 any fear whatsoever. And thank you very much in advance.

23 Witness, I must go back to your statement. Is it correct

24 that you made a written statement to or before the investigators of the

25 OTP of this International Tribunal?

Page 4206

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer.

3 Did you sign this declaration in your own hand?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness.

6 Witness, will you please remind us, because your testimony spread

7 over two days. But please remind us of the day when the incident

8 happened. Did -- was that day a quiet day, or was it, on the

9 other hand, very active, in military terms? We're talking about the 24th

10 of July, aren't we?

11 A. Yes, we are. You mean when I was wounded by a sniper from

12 Spicasta Stijena?

13 Early in the morning around 6.00. I was wounded around 6.00. And

14 I laid down for about half an hour there because nobody could come to me.

15 But they did half an hour later and my neighbour called my son. And a

16 friend of his who was killed later, and they took me to the hospital.

17 They took out the bullet and took me back home, and then on a couple of --

18 and then a couple of times I had to go to have my wound attended to.

19 Q. Madam, thank you for this answer. But my question

20 was the following: That day when you were wounded, was it to your

21 knowledge a day which was very quiet, or on the contrary, a day which was

22 active in military terms? That is, whether there was any fighting.

23 A. Yes. Shells fell that day, and there was a lot of fire, gunfire.

24 And there were very many shells which fell that day.

25 Q. Madam, would you then agree with me that under the circumstances,

Page 4207

1 the day when you suffered your incident was a day when the parties to the

2 conflict were engaged on two opposite sides in military operations?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.

5 Witness, you said -- and I really tried to draw very precisely on

6 my memory -- but you said that there were trenches in the area in

7 the neighbourhood in which you lived; is that correct?

8 A. I'll tell you. I did not come out, because I spent time in

9 cellars. It's -- I suppose it was further away from my house.

10 Q. Witness, did you see yourself with your own eyes these trenches,

11 whatever their form? Were they just single trenches in -- sorry, trenches

12 inside the soil, or were they elevated, made trenches?

13 A. It was up there by the Spicasta Stijena.

14 Q. Yes, Witness. But I asked you whether you yourself with your own

15 eyes saw these trenches.

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer.

18 Did you see -- and we are talking about the entire war. So from

19 May 1992 until September 1994, did you see there on that location soldiers

20 or members of the army?

21 A. There were soldiers.

22 Q. Thank you very much for this answer.

23 When you say that there were soldiers, could you tell the Chamber

24 if these soldiers were all in military uniform.

25 A. No. They were not wearing uniforms. They did not have uniforms.

Page 4208

1 Q. Witness, could you tell us briefly how they were dressed, to the

2 best of your recollection, of course.

3 A. They were dressed in different ways. They would have a blue suit,

4 black, and so on, or white. They did not have uniforms.

5 Q. Witness, as far as you know, were there also women who were

6 members of the army?

7 A. I don't know about that.

8 Q. Witness, do you know more specifically whether in the logistics of

9 the army -- and when I say "logistics," I mean procurement, food -- in

10 this particular department, were there women involved?

11 A. I don't know about that.

12 Q. Thank you for your answer.

13 Witness, you said that you knew that there were soldiers in that

14 area. Now, do you know where their barracks were, if there were any

15 barracks?

16 A. I don't know where the barracks were. It was just an empty area,

17 open area. I don't know anything about that, because all this open area

18 from the Spicasta Stijena was being targeted. We, the women from the

19 cellar, we did not dare go out.

20 Q. Witness, when you say that there were people who went in that open

21 area or that empty area, according to the transcripts that I'm reading,

22 what do you mean by "area," by that space, empty or open space?

23 A. There was an intersection that you could not pass at all because

24 of the snipers. This was the most-targeted area.

25 Q. Witness, in relation to your previous answer, you said that there

Page 4209












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4210

1 were people who passed through there. What do you mean when you say

2 "people"? What did you mean?

3 A. These were people who lived in Sarajevo and people who lived in my

4 street, in Sedrenik, probably these people.

5 Q. Witness, when you say -- when you say "people," did you also mean

6 soldiers?

7 A. Probably soldiers as well.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Now, this area that you spoke about, this

9 space that you mentioned a moment ago -- and I am just talking about page

10 12, line 14 -- did this area encompass the area where you were wounded?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Am I understanding you correctly, if you say that there were no

13 people who went through that area where you were wounded, but in a more

14 general way?

15 A. It was just an open area, and it was very difficult to cross that

16 area.

17 Q. Witness, would you be able to tell us absolutely whether

18 soldiers went through that area or not?

19 A. To tell you the truth, no.

20 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer. I will finish very quickly.

21 I have another three or four questions.

22 Witness, did you see in the area close to the confrontation line

23 the demarcation line between the two parties, any kind of military station

24 or a base where the soldiers could have gone to rest?

25 A. No.

Page 4211

1 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

2 Now, could you tell us, where did these soldiers go to sleep?

3 A. I don't know anything about that.

4 Q. Witness, do you know if these soldiers slept in the trenches, or

5 did they go to sleep in their own homes?

6 A. I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness.

8 Witness, how long had you been living in this part of Sarajevo?

9 A. From 1964.

10 Q. Witness, as far as you know, in the part where you lived, in the

11 neighbourhood where you lived, were there men there who were soldiers at

12 the time that we are talking about?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Thank you for your answer.

15 A penultimate question, Witness: At the time of your incident, we

16 --

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... what you would

18 like to know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 Mrs. Jusovic, yesterday we saw that it was very difficult for you

20 to answer all the questions, emotions coming up again. During the break

21 yesterday and between yesterday when you finished your testimony

22 provisionally until today, did you speak with Nazija Ocuz?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You've not been speaking with her yesterday when you

25 left --

Page 4212

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for you answer to that question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I will now ask counsel for the Prosecution if they

5 have any additional questions.

6 Mr. Mundis, is there any need to re-examine the witness.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Just another three or four questions, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis has another few questions for you

9 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

10 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Jusovic. On the morning you were shot, that

11 is, July 24th, 1993, do you remember seeing any soldiers near the spot

12 where you were at the time you were shot?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you remember seeing any military equipment or heavy military

15 weapons near the spot where you were at the time you were shot?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, have you ever been in the army or worked for the

18 army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever worn a military uniform at any point in your life?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Jusovic.

23 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I did not

Page 4213

1 do it directly to the witness -- I did not ask the question directly

2 because I did not want to upset her. But what happened yesterday is that

3 we received some documents about the military activity in Sarajevo, about

4 this particular date, 24th of July, 1993. And these documents, reports,

5 by military observers. And I don't know whether I should show them to the

6 witness. I don't think this is necessary, but I believe that it should be

7 at the disposal of the parties and also your Chamber. And we would like

8 to tender them as evidence.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Any objection

10 even where this witness has not testified specifically on the documents

11 themselves, but on the situation on that day to admit these

12 documents into evidence?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'd like the opportunity to see the

14 documents before I can comment on that, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, give

16 copies of documents and perhaps since we'll have to decide, give copies

17 to the --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Yes,

19 everything is here. These are documents ERN number 0008421 and 8422,

20 ending in such a way. They're two pages. These are observations on

21 the -- for the 24th of July, 1993. On the UNMO in Sarajevo, these

22 military observers of the United Nations in Sarajevo. And we have a

23 number of shelling and firing and shots that take -- took place that day.

24 And Mr. President, this is still the documents that we were given

25 by the Prosecution some time ago. That is the source of the document --

Page 4214

1 or the documents.

2 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no objection to these documents,

3 Mr. President.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you to the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We'll decide on the

6 admission in evidence of this document, which will, when we decide, will

7 have what number, Madam Registrar?



10 Would there be any additional questions from the Bench? No.

11 We have no further questions to you, Mrs. Jusovic. That means

12 that this is the end of your testimony in this Court. I once again would

13 like to express the respect of this Chamber for your courage to come.

14 We've all seen how difficult it was. It might even have been more

15 difficult to re-enter this courtroom today, but I hope you are aware that

16 everyone, all the parties and the Bench, is aware of how difficult it is

17 to bring back into your mind those days that were very difficult for you

18 and your family. Therefore, I'd like to thank you not only for coming

19 from Sarajevo, but also for --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... today, and I

22 wish you have a safe trip home again.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you so much. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Usher, would you please guide the witness

25 out of the courtroom.

Page 4215

1 And I thank the Victims and Witnesses Unit for their assistance.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, thank

5 you. I was rather troubled by this hearing, and I don't think that we --

6 it was noted in the transcript that when the witness indicated that she

7 had the same type of hairstyle, is that we can perhaps say now -- give a

8 description of her hairstyle to say that it was relatively short, that it

9 did not come to cover her neck, and that it was above -- coming just below

10 the ears. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's a good description of the short

12 haircut she had.

13 I also had one remark, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And please will you

14 assist me. On page 13, line 15, could you please check the English

15 transcript. As far as my recollection goes, you asked the witness whether

16 she could, for sure, exclude the possibility that military people could

17 pass through that area. But the translation says, "Witness will you be

18 able to tell us absolutely where -- whether soldiers went through that or

19 not." I think your question was whether she could exclude that they could

20 have passed through that area. I'll check it in the French transcript,

21 which I expect to include the word "exclure" which I noticed you used. I

22 see you're nodding with me, and I assume that that's my question.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as a rule you

24 know that the Defence can only agree with the Chamber, particularly when

25 we're talking about these things. And yes, indeed, this was a double

Page 4216












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4217

1 negative, which was what I said. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll keep that in mind when reading the

3 transcript.

4 Then we still have to decide on the documents tendered into

5 evidence. Madam Registrar, could you please assist us.

6 THE REGISTRAR: The 360-degree Quicktime movie, P3279R, and the

7 video P3280R.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Defence Exhibit D50? Since there are

9 no objections, they're all admitted into evidence.

10 It's then, I think, up to the Prosecution to call its next

11 witness, which, as far as I can see, would be Bogdan Vidovic?

12 MR. IERACE: That's so, Mr. President.


14 Please could you bring in the witness, Mr. Usher.

15 And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I still wanted to thank you for the way you

16 performed the cross-examination, the tone and the style in which you did

17 it.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, I'm trying to make a

19 habit of it. Thank you, Mr. President.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand,

22 Mr. Vidovic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: At the beginning of your testimony in this courtroom,

25 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

Page 4218

1 declaration that you'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

2 the truth. Would you -- I invite you to make that statement. You have

3 the text in front of you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

9 Mr. Vidovic, you will first be examined by counsel for the

10 Prosecution. Afterwards, you'll be cross-examined, if there's any need,

11 by counsel for the Defence. And if there are any additional questions

12 from the Bench, you'll hear from us.

13 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

16 Q. Would you please give the Trial Chamber your full name.

17 A. Bogdan Vidovic.

18 Q. Mr. Vidovic, in 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In November of 1992, did you join the police force in Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. In particular, did you join the Centre for Security Bureau?

23 A. Yes. This is the Criminal Department of the Security Services

24 Centre, Criminal Service.

25 Q. At that time, did you commence, say, a six-month training course

Page 4219

1 which taught you about forensic techniques, ballistics, biology,

2 chemistry, and the criminal law?

3 A. Yes. From February 1993 until July, that is, August 1993.

4 Q. Did you also do some study of photography, sketching, and

5 fingerprints?

6 A. Yes. That's correct. Everything that comes within the area of

7 the criminal forensics.

8 Q. Indeed, did you essentially become a criminal forensic technician?

9 A. Yes. That's on the basis of which I got a certificate, which

10 says that I finished this course and yes, I am a criminal forensic

11 technician.

12 Q. Did that training include working with senior officers so that you

13 could learn from their experience?

14 A. Yes. All of the lectures were done by experts, experts from

15 biology, criminology, and so on.

16 Q. Did your work involve investigating some shelling and sniping

17 incidents in and around Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes, it did. Although -- yes. In any case, yes, that's what I

19 did. It was just one of the areas of my work, apart from the ordinary

20 on-site investigations when criminal offences were committed.

21 Q. In relation to sniping incidents, if there was more than one point

22 of impact or entry point made by the bullet, did that give you any

23 assistance in determining the source of the fire?

24 A. Yes, of course. There are two methods by which you can determine

25 this. For one more precise method, you need to have two points, that is,

Page 4220

1 one entry and then one of impact. And then you can very precisely

2 determine the place from which the shot was fired.

3 And for the other method, you only just need one entry point, to

4 then determine a direction from which the shot was fired.

5 Q. On the 19th of June, 1994, were you required as part of your work

6 duties to investigate a sniping incident involving a tram in Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 MR. IERACE: May I ask the witness be shown P2696, which is a

9 two-page document.

10 Q. Mr. Vidovic, would you please look at the document in front of

11 you. Does it appear to be on the face of it a report made by an officer

12 by the name of Numanovic in relation to the incident that you investigated

13 together with some other people?

14 A. Yes, this is one of the investigations I did. And my colleague

15 Numanovic at that time was a CID inspector, and this is his record.

16 Q. I think in that report, there are three named individuals involved

17 in the investigation and you are one of them; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. Tavonje [phoen] is another fellow worker from the Criminal

19 Investigation Department.

20 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown exhibit P3655.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It seems that General Galic

24 cannot read his screen. I don't know if we have a technical problem or

25 something. Just a moment.

Page 4221

1 No, I think that the problem has to do with the video. We shall

2 see now if it works. Just a moment.

3 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see, there's nothing on the video --

4 at least not on the ELMO at this very moment. Is there? No. The ELMO is

5 empty, so -- or is it the video channel that ...?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll try to resolve the

7 problem. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding. Mr. President, do we have on

8 our screen something on the video -- I see. Well, then I'm sorry. So

9 this was a premature reaction. Thank you.


11 Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.


13 Q. Would you please go to the second page of the document in front of

14 you now. Do you recognise your signature anywhere on that page?

15 A. I do, yes. This is my name here and the name of my colleague who

16 did the investigation with me.

17 Q. And is there a signature alongside the name of your colleague?

18 A. Yes. Yes, there are -- there is his signature and a signature of

19 our boss, the one who checked, who controlled what we had done, I mean the

20 report that we had prepared.

21 Q. If you can just clarify this for me: Is there actually your

22 signature or just your typed name?

23 A. No, only typed. This is done in two copies normally, so I guess I

24 did not sign the second copy. I only signed one of the copies.

25 Q. All right. Now, is this in effect your report in relation to your

Page 4222

1 investigation of the tram shooting incident on the 16th of June, 1994?

2 A. On the 19th of June. But yes, yes, that is my report.

3 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Mr. President, I'll point

4 out to the -- for the benefit of the Trial Chamber that again there

5 appears to be a mistranslation. If one looks at paragraph 4 of the

6 English translation, the second sentence commences with the words "on the

7 16th of June, 1994." If one looks at the Bosnian original, it seems that

8 is the date in fact was the 19th of June, 1994.

9 Q. All right. Now, in that report, do you mention the names of the

10 victims?

11 A. Yes. These are the names of the victims, the ones that we noted

12 down when we went out to the site to investigate.

13 Q. And indeed is it apparent from your report -- and in combination

14 with the earlier report, that your investigation was carried out on the

15 day of the incident itself?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown a series of photographs

18 which are Exhibit P3656.

19 Q. Mr. Vidovic, perhaps you could reorder the photographs in front of

20 you. Could you please go first to the photograph which has in the top

21 right-hand corner numbers ending with "53."

22 A. Right.

23 Q. Yes, thank you. That's now on the ELMO. In your report, you say

24 that the -- the particular tram involved had the garage number "236."

25 On the photograph in front of you, do we see the number "236"

Page 4223












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4224

1 stamped on the front of the tram? Perhaps you could point to it. Thank

2 you. In other words --

3 A. That's right. Here it is.

4 Q. So I take it this was the tram involved in the incident. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. All right. Please now go to photograph 51. And put that on the

8 ELMO. Is that the same tram?

9 A. Yes. Yes, it is. It is the same tram.

10 Q. All right. Photograph 52; same tram?

11 A. Same tram.

12 Q. Now, on this photograph, do we see the same tram as indicated by

13 the number "236" painted on the side of the tram? I think that appears

14 alongside the windows.

15 A. Yes, yes. This is the number here, the garage number of the

16 tram.

17 Q. All right. Did you take this photograph?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Before taking the photograph, did you place a sticker with an

20 arrow and a measuring device alongside a hole in the side of the tram?

21 A. Yes. I put an arrow to indicate the point of entry in the tram

22 that was hit, and the scale also just to show the scale, the size of the

23 hole.

24 Q. Please point it out on the ELMO.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 4225

1 Q. Thank you. Would you please now put on photograph 49. Is

2 that another photograph of the relevant hole?

3 A. Yes, it is. It was a close-up photograph.

4 Q. All right. Photograph 50; does that show the exit

5 point of the bullet on the inside of the side of the tram?

6 A. Here it is. There is an arrow and a scale to show the size of

7 it.

8 Q. What is the red object which appears in the top left-hand side of

9 the photograph?

10 A. This is the back of the -- of a seat in the tram.

11 Q. As we look at that photograph, we see -- I'm sorry, I did say

12 earlier the top left-hand corner. But I notice the way the photograph is

13 placed on the ELMO, as we view the photograph on the ELMO, the red object

14 is to the bottom right. And on the left side of the photograph, we see a

15 greyish-coloured material. What was that greyish-coloured material?

16 Which part of the tram?

17 A. It is the central part of the tram more or less.

18 Q. I'm sorry. I don't mean in terms of distance from the front of

19 the tram. What I mean is: Is that the wall of the tram or the floor of

20 the tram or something else?

21 A. Well, this is what it should be. This is how it should be put.

22 It is the part above the heater, and it is more or less level with

23 passengers' feet.

24 Q. Will you please now go to photograph 55 and again on the screen?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, again to avoid whatever confusion. Since

Page 4226

1 the ELMO was originally -- was on the screen with the number ending with

2 "50," on the left-hand side, it has now been re-placed on the ELMO by the

3 witness with the number just on top of the photograph and the arrow

4 pointing down.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Do we now have on the screen the photograph ending with the

7 numbers "55." If that could be placed on the screen.

8 Could you position the photograph appropriately, Mr. Vidovic.

9 A. Now it is placed correctly. This one.

10 Q. What is indicated by the arrow which appears in the photograph?

11 A. It indicates the place of impact of the bullet after it entered

12 the tram.

13 Q. What did it hit?

14 A. It hit the carrying frame of the seat.

15 Q. The carrying frame. Is that in effect the portion underneath the

16 seat?

17 A. Yes, it is underneath the seat. It supported the leg of the

18 seat. Let me just mention that in this part of that tram, where this seat

19 is, there are two seats facing two opposite seats.

20 Q. All right. Does it therefore follow that the bullet penetrated

21 the -- the left-hand side of the tram, as one faces the direction in which

22 the tram was going? Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is. It went through the plate wall and hit a seat which

24 faces towards the rear of the tram. I can show it to you on the

25 photograph 54, which seat it is.

Page 4227

1 It is the seat where you see this man, and it is -- he faces the

2 rear of the tram.

3 Q. Could you point that out again, please.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. And I think on that photograph you point to the left half of the

6 window which is to the right of centre of the photograph.

7 Having penetrated the wall of the tram, did the bullet then strike

8 a --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not think

11 that we have the same thing before us. I think that the witness had

12 circled the right-hand side, that is, the right-hand side window.

13 Could the witness repeat the movement.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just clear it up. The point

15 of entry is on the outside of the tram, on the outside wall. The seat

16 which was hit next, which was hit as the bullet entered, is on the

17 right-hand side of the tram, and it faces the rear of the tram, because as

18 I have said, in that part of the tram, there are two seats facing one --

19 each other.

20 Perhaps it would be simpler if I drew it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that there could be hardly

22 any misunderstanding, although I think I know what confused you a bit.

23 Mr. Ierace explained that the witness was pointing to the left half

24 of the window which is to the right of the centre of the photograph. So

25 he was pointing at the window at the right, but on the left half of this

Page 4228

1 window. Just in order to clarify the issue, the witness was pointing at a

2 person sitting near a window which is not on the side of the tram of which

3 the photograph was taken but at the other side, a person who is facing in

4 the direction of number 236 and who is sitting left from two standing

5 persons and a sitting -- what appears to be a woman with a scarf.

6 Please proceed.


8 Q. Mr. Vidovic, I'll just ask you some more questions about that.

9 Firstly, I think I understood that you said the bullet hit the right side

10 of the tram. If you could imagine standing in the tram and facing up the

11 tram towards where the driver is, in other words, towards the direction

12 the tram is travelling, did the bullet hit on the left or on the right?

13 A. On the left. On the left-hand side of the tram is the point of

14 entry. And after it entered, it hit the seat which is across that hole.

15 And the damage is on the left-hand side of the support as you look in the

16 direction in which the tram is moving, or rather, in the direction of the

17 driver.

18 Q. As you imagine standing in the tram and looking in the direction

19 of the driver, did the bullet hit the seat support -- I'll withdraw that.

20 If you could imagine standing in the aisle of the tram facing the

21 driver, so that you have some seats on your left and some seats on your

22 right, the bullet came in through the left side of the tram. Did it then

23 hit the supports of the seats on your left, or did it travel across the

24 aisle and hit the support of the seats on your right?

25 A. It hit the seat support to my right. It is this. This seat is to

Page 4229

1 my right, as I stand facing in the direction in which the tram is moving.

2 Q. So therefore, the bullet, having penetrated the wall of the tram,

3 travelled across the aisle before it impacted with the seat support; is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, as we look at the photograph on the screen, which

7 is 55, and we look at the seat support, can you also see what appears to

8 be a grille on the left-hand --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The translation should be "the

10 aisle." Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please put on the ELMO the

12 photo with number 55 at the end.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I did not use the word "the aisle."

14 I wonder what my friend is referring to.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think you used the word a couple of times.

16 MR. IERACE: Not in the last question.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Not in the last question. I don't know whether

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin was referring to --

19 I'd suggest, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there's any need that the

20 translation be corrected, that we assist the interpreters. Would you

21 please not do it directly to the interpreters, but through me, yes.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies. The word was

23 not properly interpreted, but the word used in French was "el," and I

24 think it is "elle" and I think that is just a minor detail.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. And it was just used to

Page 4230












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4231

1 assist the interpreters.

2 Please proceed.


4 Q. Mr. Vidovic, please look on the photograph on your machine to your

5 right, and you see that the bullet impacted on what appears to be a middle

6 column that slightly tapers towards the top.

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And on the side of that column, we can see some grilles.

9 A. I suppose these are the ventilation openings that are in the

10 tram here. Or for the heating you have these openings here, too. Behind

11 this tin plate -- behind this tin plate are the heaters.

12 Q. Would you please now place on the machine photograph 56?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Interpretation. Yes, the

15 interpretation -- in French it shouldn't be grille, it should be grille.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties in following it on the

17 English transcript. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps if you just write it

18 down with the page and line number on a small note and we'll take proper

19 care and give it to the Chamber so that we pay proper attention to it.

20 I have another question. Mr. Ierace, there seems to be a -- as

21 far as I understood, your question was about any grilles on this column.

22 And it was not quite clear to me whether the witness was pointing at the

23 grilles on the column or at the grilles at the side of the tram. Could

24 you please try to clarify this.


Page 4232

1 Q. Mr. Vidovic, as you look at the column, please with the pointer

2 indicate what appear to be two sets of grilles: one lower and one higher.

3 Firstly the lower set -- I'll withdraw that. We have to go back a

4 photograph --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we have to go back to photograph 55.

6 MR. IERACE: Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's where the confusion started.

8 MR. IERACE: All right.

9 Q. Mr. Vidovic, would you please circle the grilles which we can

10 see on the column.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Is there another grille higher up?

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, as you understood it, what was the purpose

15 of those grilles?

16 A. Ventilation and heating.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. I suppose.

19 Q. Now, against the -- I withdraw that.

20 On the wall behind the column, there also appear to be some

21 grilles. Perhaps you can circle those with the pointer.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Do you understand those grilles to serve the same or a different

24 purpose?

25 A. Well, the same purpose, I suppose. As far as I know, behind this

Page 4233

1 grille here are the heaters, I believe.

2 Q. Would you please now go to photograph 56. Now, first of all, on

3 that photograph, as indicated by the arrow, do we see the same point of

4 impact of the bullet as on the previous photograph?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. To the left of the photograph, we see a pipe that is anchored by

7 some bolts into the floor of the tram. And to the left and behind it, we

8 see a dark object. Could you firstly point to the pipe which is bolted to

9 the floor?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you. And the dark object to the left and behind the pipe.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Could you tell us what they are.

14 A. This -- this tube here is --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt again,

16 but I need -- there was a very precise question. I do not know. Whenever

17 we have a problem with French transcript, shall I record that and report

18 it to, or shall I intervene? For instance, here in the French transcript

19 we see "point d' entree," when it was said, actually, the "point

20 d'impacte," and there was a major difference between the two. And it is

21 simply that we do not do the same work twice, because I will have to

22 re-read the whole transcript, comparing it with my notes. This is a

23 rather delicate matter.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you: I think if you're making a

25 distinction between point impact and the other word you used, my main

Page 4234

1 concern is whether there could be any misunderstanding. The essence of

2 the question was whether this was the same point of entry or impact, but

3 the same, as has been discussed before on the other photograph, I think.

4 So there finally would hardly be any misunderstanding that suddenly the

5 type of this point would be a different one from the earlier photograph or

6 from the earlier question. So I'd like you to distinguish between those

7 imperfections in the translation which could cause serious

8 misunderstandings -- confusion, and those that are just of minor

9 importance. If they're in minor importance, please write them down, give

10 them to us, so that we can deal with it. If you are afraid that confusion

11 could be the result of the imperfection of the translation, please tell

12 us.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

14 very much. I am checking. I believe that the question -- I can check it,

15 of course -- but I believe that the question was about the point of

16 impact, point d'impacte. And there is a major difference between the

17 point of entry and the point of impact, because these two -- because it is

18 these two points which allow us to establish the line where --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we could not hear the end of the lawyer's

20 comment because it overlapped with the president.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For instance, page 33, line

23 12, where it is -- [In English] as on the previous photograph.

24 [Interpretation] And it is precisely about a very precise

25 question, and it cannot be interpreted with the point of entry because it

Page 4235

1 is exactly the opposite, and therefore with your -- with your leave, I

2 took the liberty to intervene.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that part of the testimony of the witness

4 is about two different points: The point of entry and the point of

5 impact. So I do agree with you that this distinction should be properly

6 made while translating. So therefore, I accept that your assistance at

7 this very moment and whenever it could not create confusion or whenever it

8 will not have a snag in this case, it would not be of great importance.

9 I'd like you to just give a note to us, because the translation, of

10 course, that's the bottom line, should be as correct as possible. So

11 thank you for your -- for your assistance, especially in this matter where

12 it has some relevance to correct it.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: We're at the time, Mr. President. Is that a

15 convenient time?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I even forgot to look at the clock. You know

17 how dear the clock is to me.

18 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed with the examination of

22 the witness.


24 Q. Mr. Vidovic, would you please look at photograph beginning with --

25 I'm sorry, the photograph which has numbers in the top right-hand corner

Page 4236

1 ending with "56." I think it is on the ELMO at the moment.

2 Before the break, I asked if you could identify the dark object

3 which appears to the left of the photograph behind the pipe. What is

4 that?

5 A. This, that can be seen on the photograph. That's part of the door

6 of the tram, what you call the "dark object."

7 Q. Now, in that photograph we can also see the floor of the tram; is

8 that correct?

9 A. That's right, yes. This brown surface.

10 Q. On the floor, in front of the number "1," there appears to be an

11 orange irregular-shaped object. What is that?

12 A. These are parts of the bullet that entered the tram. So that

13 would be the jacket and part of the bullet.

14 Q. We can see in this photograph the floor of the tram. It appears

15 to be a brownish colour; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We can also see part of the heater --

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry, Mr. Ierace. Can the witness point

19 out the irregular-shaped object.


21 Q. Mr. Vidovic, would you take a blue marker pen and circle the parts

22 of the bullet jacket that you have identified.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. Now, we can see that the floor of the tram is brownish

25 in colour. And to the top of the photograph, we can see part of what you

Page 4237












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4238

1 have identified as the heating or ventilation system. And that appears to

2 be more of a reflective metallic surface; is that correct?

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Yes. I think you're now pointing to the parts of the heater and

5 also the floor.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Yes. Now, would you please go back to the photograph ending with

8 the numbers "55," and place that on the ELMO. Again, in this photograph,

9 we can see the brownish floor material, in particular just above the

10 number "1" that appears in the left-hand corner. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And above it, we can see the --

13 A. Yes, I can see it.

14 Q. Above it, we can see the shiny reflective metal which contains

15 some grilles. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I can see it.

17 Q. All right. To the top of the metallic grille, we can see what

18 appears to be a flat edge which is parallel to the floor. That also has a

19 grille. Do you see that?

20 A. Do you mean this here?

21 Q. No. You're now pointing to the middle of the top of the

22 photograph. Would you move your pointer to the left of the top of the

23 photograph, the left-hand corner. Further to the left. Yes, thank you.

24 Do you see a grille which appears to be on a surface which is

25 parallel to the floor? And if so, please point to it.

Page 4239

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. This bit here. And this is also the -- the same thing. It is the

4 protector for the heater. It's also a grille, and it's also to the side

5 -- it's on the side of the tram.

6 Q. Please take your black -- I'm sorry. Please take the blue marker

7 and circle the top grille on the surface, which is parallel to the floor

8 level.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you. Now, it would follow that the surface you have just

11 circled comes out from the wall of the tram; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it comes from the wall. In fact, it continues onto the wall

13 of the tram.

14 Q. And it would appear to be at a height just below the seat; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, approximately it's at that height, right underneath the seat.

17 Q. All right. Now, please go back to the photograph which ends with

18 the numbers "50," and please place that on the ELMO. You told us earlier

19 that the arrow indicates the point at which the bullet entered the cavity

20 of the tram. We can see in the bottom left-hand corner part of the seat,

21 painted red; is that correct? Coloured red.

22 A. Yes, that's part of the seat. And here is the entry point.

23 Q. We see immediately beneath the seat a shiny metallic surface

24 protruding from the wall of the tram.

25 A. Yes. This is this here.

Page 4240

1 Q. Is that the top part of the heater?

2 A. Yes, it is. Yes, it is the top part of the heater.

3 Q. Does it therefore follow that the bullet entered the tram some

4 distance above the floor level?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Indeed at a point, a matter of a few centimetres beneath the seat?

7 A. Yes, approximately. Yes, approximately several centimetres.

8 Q. Now, as a result of your investigation -- I withdraw that.

9 At the time you carried out the investigation, was the tram moved

10 back to where you understood it had been approximately at the time that it

11 was shot?

12 A. For security reasons, the tram was moved about three stops

13 further.

14 Q. Did you understand that the tram had received the shot in front of

15 a church?

16 A. According to the statements of the people who were in the tram at

17 the time, the tram was shot -- was in front of the church when it was

18 shot.

19 Q. As a result of your forensic investigation, were you able to

20 establish the source of fire?

21 A. The shot came when we look at the direction in which the tramway

22 was moving, it came from the left side from the direction of Grbavica and

23 Vrace, that are located on that left side.

24 Q. On the 19th of June, 1994, in whose control was Grbavica and

25 Vrace?

Page 4241

1 A. In this period, Grbavica and Vrace were under the control of the

2 army of Bosnian-Serbs.

3 Q. How far away from the tram at the time it was shot was the

4 confrontation line?

5 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you precisely in terms of the

6 distance, but approximately about two or three minutes' walk.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes examination-in-chief.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the

10 witness? Please proceed, then.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

12 very much. I am just gathering up my notes.

13 MR. IERACE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I do apologise to my

14 learned colleague. I seek your leave to ask one or two further questions

15 which I have overlooked.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm sure that you will get some

17 extra time to go through your notes.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. No, no. It's just you understand.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you want my answer?

20 JUDGE ORIE: It's not necessary.

21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. And thank you to my

22 learned colleague.

23 Q. Mr. Vidovic, would you place back on the ELMO the photograph that

24 ends with the numbers "51." You told us earlier that the investigation

25 was carried out on the same day of the incident, that is, the 19th of

Page 4242

1 June, 1994. And I take it these photographs were taken by you on that

2 same date; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes, on that day same. The photographs were on that same

4 day, and yes, I took them.

5 Q. In this photograph, we can see a number of people standing around

6 and walking and likewise in photograph 52. Could you please place 52 on

7 the ELMO.

8 During 1994 and indeed 1993, under what circumstances did the

9 civilians of Sarajevo walk around in this area as freely as we see in the

10 photographs?

11 A. Well, to walk like this and together like this, they could only do

12 it at the time of a truce, a ceasefire which was then declared.

13 Q. Was there a ceasefire active on the night of June 19th, 1994?

14 A. I think it was, because the tram was driving, and it could only

15 operate -- be operated when there was a ceasefire, so that people could

16 expect that they could walk freely.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

21 Mr. Ierace has no more questions? Oh, good. Thank you.

22 Now, before I begin this cross-examination, I would like to

23 indicate the following: We established at the very beginning of the

24 intervention of Mr. Ierace, there were certain kind of leading questions,

25 and the Defence did not object because the Defence believed that the

Page 4243

1 debate can continue and can advance so that we couldn't interrupt all the

2 time, and so that at the end of the day, I could summarise it all. And

3 the Defence is certain that it could obtain the same attitude of the

4 Prosecution. And so I may have to ask some questions that may have a

5 certain -- more of a leading nature than usual, and this is just to get a

6 balance of [indiscernible] that could be useful to the cause.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just to perhaps clarify this issue, in the common law

8 tradition, as I understand it, leading questions are not permitted during

9 examination-in-chief but they are while cross-examining the witness. So

10 therefore, I would say, although we do not strictly follow the common law

11 tradition, I think that leading questions are such that they'll not be

12 opposed to by the Prosecution. That's of course a different issue, as far

13 as referring to earlier parts of the testimony are concerned, which of

14 course have to be very precise. But I tell you this now because it's -- I

15 don't think it's a favour by the Prosecution if they refrain from

16 objecting against leading questions. I think they would not be very

17 successful in doing so during cross-examine.

18 On the other hand, why do I explain this to you at this very

19 moment is that this, of course, will have its consequences when the

20 Defence will present its case, because then I think objections against

21 leading questions by the Prosecution during cross-examination of the

22 witnesses might not be that successful. So that just to explain what

23 still is in the back of those who come from a common-law tradition and

24 which is a bit in the mind of this Chamber as well, although not coming

25 from a common-law tradition, having some idea of what's in the mind of the

Page 4244












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4245

1 common-law tradition people.

2 Please proceed.

3 If I do misinterpret the common-law tradition, Mr. Ierace, please

4 tell me.

5 MR. IERACE: That's exactly what I was going to say,

6 Mr. President. I have not objected to a question by my friend because of

7 his leading, and I will not. There are other issues. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Thank you for your words. And that's exactly what the Defence believes.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Now, witness, good morning. Thank you for being

13 here today. And I believe you gave a statement, a written statement to

14 the investigators of the ICTY. First of all, it was on the 15th of

15 November, 1995. Do you remember? Do you remember giving this statement?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, I will refer to the written statement as I am

18 talking about it. You mentioned in this written statement that you

19 obtained certain qualifications and profession expertise as a policeman

20 and a police technician; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness.

23 Witness, you mentioned certain ballistic expertise; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes. Among other things, this was one of the subjects that I had

Page 4246

1 on my course that I did.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

3 I can see that you have several qualifications, but I would like

4 to limit myself to the ballistics. Now, regarding the problem of

5 ballistics, is it true, Witness, that a system using a string was used to

6 -- the angle of the firing and the source of the fire?

7 A. Yes. This is done if there are two points: Entry of impact and

8 point of entry -- point of impact and point of entry.

9 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.

10 I would like to specify for the interpreters. If you can speak

11 into if microphone so that we don't have any problems.

12 Now, you said that there were two points: One of entry and one of

13 impact. Now, Witness, what are the criteria, technical criteria, that

14 link to the ballistic deviation that you know to be, according to your

15 expertise?

16 A. I think I did not understand the question. What kind of deviation

17 do you mean?

18 Q. Yes. Well, Witness, you will agree with me to consider the

19 following: That when we have a bullet which goes through a first obstacle

20 and then there is a possibility of deviation -- deviation is trajectory,

21 sometimes it's called the ricochet. First of all, when it hit the

22 obstacle, it's -- the speed is changed and then a deviation is

23 possible. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

Page 4247

1 Now, in relation to this deviation, what are scientific criteria

2 that you used to establish to use your expertise? Otherwise, how do you

3 calculate this deviation?

4 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand the question.

5 Q. Yes, I agree with you that it is a very technical question. But I

6 think we can try and understand.

7 If we have a projectile that is deviating from the point of entry

8 and the point of impact, you will agree with me that we can consider that

9 its trajectory can be changed, can deviate?

10 A. Yes, I agree with you.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 So if the trajectory is changed, what is the scientific criteria

13 that you've learned about that are used to take into account these changes

14 in the trajectory? If you don't know, then you can just say so.

15 A. I don't know what criteria is calculated, but it does depend on

16 the type of surface that the bullet goes through, depending on the

17 softness or the hardness. The softer it is, there will be less of a

18 change.

19 Q. Yes, absolutely. Yes, we agree on the principle with you, but

20 because that you -- you had several of these cases, what is the norm,

21 standard, criteria that you used in establishing this?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please assist me. You

23 said, question: "...agree on the principle, but because you had several

24 of these cases, what is the norm, standard, you used in establishing

25 this?"

Page 4248

1 Until now, I've not seen any establishment in this case of the

2 trajectory exactly followed or calculated by the witness. So I wonder

3 what the relevance would be, since there's -- I do not see anything, any

4 conclusion, drawn by this witness on the issues you're questioning him

5 about. So --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I believe

7 that the witness is here brought by the Prosecution to prove -- to show

8 that the shot could have come from a territory that was held by the

9 Serbian side. So it seems that the witness was a team member of a team,

10 one of the three, who would go to the site to establish where the shot

11 came from.

12 Now, the witness just told us that, depending on the two points,

13 the point of entry and the point of impact, we would be able to establish

14 what is the source of the shot. Now, what I'm saying is that if this

15 point can deviate, what is the criteria used in order to establish the

16 source? So the witness can either say he knows it or that he doesn't know

17 it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not agree with you, [Microphone not

19 activated] to the extent that the witness has said that they would not be

20 the -- on the basis that one could calculate the origin of the fire.

21 Because I think so you need far more for that, for example, what kind of

22 ammunition you are using, a lot of other elements

23 necessary to -- the only thing I see that the witness did is that he said

24 is that, it came from the direction of where Grbavica and Vrace is. And I

25 did not see any other calculation as far as the -- as far as the

Page 4249

1 trajectory of the bullet was concerned. So what is in the mind of the

2 Prosecution by examining the witness, might not be the same as what the

3 witness testified, which is rather limited. He said it came from the

4 left-hand side of the tram, and that's where the Grbavica and Vrace area

5 is, without giving any further details as to how the trajectory of the

6 bullet was calculated. I did not see any calculation at all. So -- but

7 please proceed. I'd just like to make this remark that until now, I've

8 seen nothing like calculations you're referring to at this very moment.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But

10 I asked the witness a question, and I'll see if I can find where it is.

11 The witness indicated that he used a system of strings in order to

12 establish the origin of this shot, and I believe that the Defence has the

13 right to establish -- and that is, whether a bullet can deviate from its

14 trajectory.

15 My second point is --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

18 Defence is entitled to find out whether the bullet has deviated from its

19 trajectory because the witness is here in his capacity of a quasi-expert

20 and secondly, the point of impact is not along the direct trajectory, that

21 is, the line of fire. If we try to establish on the basis of the point of

22 impact in order to establish the origin of the shot, we would be

23 committing an error in this case because it can deviate. And that is why

24 I'm asking you this.

25 Q. Witness, as an expert, and technically and hypothetically, at a

Page 4250

1 horizontal distance of 1 kilometre, can you tell this Chamber on the

2 vertical elevation, what is the distance represented by an angle of 10 per

3 cent?

4 A. Well, the answer to this question could best be provided by an

5 expert witness. What -- I do not perform any ballistic expertise -- any

6 ballistic analysis on the site. In our practice, this is done by official

7 expert witnesses. I can establish the general direction of the bullet.

8 That is what I was trained for. When it comes to something more specific,

9 as you're asking me to do, in our case, only official expert witnesses

10 could answer such questions. And it is the common procedure to answer,

11 this especially when we're dealing with motionless objectings, which is

12 not the case here.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very well. I agree.

14 Thank you very much, Witness.

15 Let us go back to the statement. Will you tell us, of the three

16 persons figuring in the list of persons who signed and established a

17 document attesting to this incident on the 19th of June, 1994 -- I'm

18 quoting from memory -- which one of these three persons was the ballistic

19 expert in the technical sense of the word?

20 A. The official expert witness did not come out to the site because

21 the direct object was moved from the site. So there was no need for his

22 presence there. It sufficed to establish the general direction from which

23 the bullet had come from. So none of these three persons. There was my

24 fellow worker, a criminal investigation operative technician, and the head

25 of the team.

Page 4251












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4252

1 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you for this answer. If I

2 understand you right, if I sum it up, you are saying that in relation to

3 the document that we are talking about, that is, the police report, there

4 is no ballistic -- ballistics expert. I'm referring to this document.

5 A. No. There was no expert witness there.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, Witness.

7 Witness, to once again go back to this incident, you said that for

8 safety reasons, your on-site observations were performed three stops

9 further down; is that correct?

10 A. About three stops further down.

11 Q. Right. So about what distance from the site of the incident?

12 A. Just a moment.

13 Q. More or less. You don't have to be exact.

14 A. Exactly three stops. How much it is in metres or kilometres, I

15 can't really tell you exactly, and I'd rather not make guesses.

16 Q. Very well. But you will agree with me, Witness, to say that we

17 are a few -- several hundred metres away, rather than a few dozen metres

18 away from the -- from the site?

19 A. Yes, it would be.

20 Q. Thank you for this answer.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know, Mr. President,

22 is the microphone on all the time? I see that there is a delay, so I see

23 that the booths have a problem. Is it all right with the booths?

24 THE INTERPRETER: If the counsel and the witness could break

25 between question and answer, then it would be easier.

Page 4253

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

2 continues] ...

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vidovic, may I ask you to -- not to answer very

4 quickly. The interpreters have to translate whatever you say. Yes,

5 please.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies to the

7 interpreters.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness. You were a policeman. And as a policeman,

9 not only -- not a ballistics expert, and you were trained for that, but as

10 a policeman -- and I should like to ask some questions that have to do

11 with that profession at the time of the war in general, and we are

12 referring to the period May 1992 to August 1994.

13 The Bosnian army, did the members of the Bosnian army have

14 uniforms?

15 A. Could you please -- I'm sorry. Can you please repeat the period

16 of time you are referring to.

17 Q. Yes. The period of time that I'm interested in, Witness, is the

18 one which covers the events, but primarily it is years 1992 to 1994:

19 1992, 1993, 1994.

20 A. To begin with, I was not a member of the army. I was a member of

21 the police. So I can the talk about the police. And what I can say is

22 that at least one part of the police force had the police uniforms from

23 before the war, that is, the same uniforms that the police used before

24 that war.

25 Q. Very well. In your capacity as a policeman or a citizen in

Page 4254

1 Sarajevo, did you -- could you see if soldiers wore uniforms?

2 A. Well, there were people who wore -- who did wear uniforms,

3 uniforms which were, I should say, by and large made manually, made by

4 hand.

5 Q. Yes, Witness. I appreciate this last detail that you have

6 furnished. When you say there were some persons, then ask a more direct

7 question. Isn't it true that the vast majority of soldiers did not have

8 military uniforms. And I'm quoting, which were not made by hand?

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question. This

10 question should be confined to a particular and far narrower point of time

11 than the whole of the years 1992, 1993, and 1994. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please clear this up, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

14 Q. Well, then, Witness, I'm asking you the same question which you

15 understood, but I am restricting myself to 1992. Then I will ask you the

16 same question about 1993. And then the same question about 1994.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


19 MR. IERACE: The year 1992 includes the pre-war period and also

20 the period where, according to other overwhelming evidence, there was not

21 an organised army of the Bosnian government for at least some months after

22 the conflict began. Thank you. The basic point is that the question is

23 [indiscernible] in the present form and it should be restricted further,

24 time-wise.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's --

Page 4255

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- wise to do it more in detail at this very moment;

3 otherwise we'll have to clarify it at a later stage. So could you

4 please --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

6 Q. Witness, after -- following the 4th or 5th of April, 1992, which I

7 believe is when the war began, until the end of the year 1992, which I

8 think is the 31st of December, 1992, was the army structure, did they have

9 military uniforms which were not made by hand?

10 A. To begin with, let me repeat once again that I was not a member

11 of the army. I was in the police. And the people who wore military

12 uniforms were presumably on the front lines, and I did not go to them. I

13 was in the city. And however, a vast majority of -- at least what I could

14 see and what I heard, were uniform that is were made by hand, at least,

15 that is what one could see following the media, following television.

16 Whether somebody had a proper uniform or not, I really cannot answer

17 that.

18 Q. Witness, but my question was to -- I wanted to find out whether

19 there were official uniforms. And am I to understand, then, your answer

20 as a yes, in the majority of cases?

21 A. Official uniforms? The police had them -- or rather, uniform that

22 is the police inherited from -- from the former police.

23 Q. Witness, I spoke to you about military units. And you answered by

24 talking about police forces. Is it that in your mind the military and the

25 army units are one and the same thing?

Page 4256

1 A. The police and the army. Well, listen, as far as I know, both the

2 army and the police are the constituent around forces of the state.

3 Having said that, one knows what the police does and that it is under the

4 Ministry of the Interior. And the purpose of the army, as far as I know,

5 is to defend the state borders and --

6 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. Can I then deduce from your

7 answer that at the time when the police armed forces had official

8 uniforms, that at the same time the military armed force did not have such

9 uniforms? Is that your answer?

10 A. In the beginning of 1992, I suppose people had uniforms that they

11 could lay their hands on. And as for the police, the majority of the

12 police, all the police had the blue uniforms that belonged to the police

13 of the [Realtime transcript read in error"Serbian"] Socialist Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. Witness, you told me -- you are telling me that there were

16 uniforms -- that people wore uniforms -- whichever uniforms they could lay

17 their hands on. However, you are saying that in the vast majority of

18 cases, there were no uniforms. And I think that you perfectly understood

19 my question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Vidovic --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm being told that there is

22 no interpretation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vidovic, tell us what your problem is.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said here and what I see

25 here, I said that uniforms belonged to the Serb Republic of

Page 4257

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I said Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I see you are following the English translation,

3 Mr. Vidovic. Am I right?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think now there are six of us checking whether

6 there's any imperfection in the translation. You said the blue uniforms

7 that belonged to the police of the Serbian Republic of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what you said, Mr. Vidovic?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. That's right.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for assisting us in avoiding whatever

11 confusion.

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps I could assist you, because I have the

13 feeling that I know what you'd like to hear from the witness. And let me

14 just see on whether we can get where I guess you'd like to be.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please wait for the previous

16 speaker to finish before he takes the floor.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... talking about

18 1992 on from the moment where the conflict broke out and talking about

19 those persons you considered to be members of the army of the Bosnian

20 government. So at this moment I'm not talking about police forces, but --

21 of members of the army of the Bosnian government. What would they wear,

22 let's say, in April, May, June, August, the rest of 1992? First the

23 question: Would they wear uniforms, all of them?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... please proceed.

Page 4258












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4259

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning, they did not. But

2 as they went along, as they began to structure, then people tried to --

3 then make do. They endeavoured to look identically, that is, all the

4 members of the army be dressed uniformly, even though I presume it was

5 very difficult at the time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'll go in much detail with you through these periods

7 of time. So we're talking now about 1992, on from the beginning of the

8 conflict. You said they would not wear uniforms. Was there a portion of

9 those you considered to be members of the army, of the Bosnian government,

10 have uniforms?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, there was an effort

12 to provide the uniformity, that is, to make uniforms for members of the

13 army. Now, whether --

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Such an effort was made

16 in 1992 to achieve an identical appearance of uniforms, because otherwise,

17 people wore whatever they had.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's my second question. When there were not

19 yet uniforms provided to those people you considered to be members of the

20 Bosnian government army, what would they wear if not uniforms?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other civilian clothes which they

22 tried to redo and make look like military clothing, to say, apply some

23 camouflage patterns on them, or perhaps -- and sometimes used canvas.

24 That was of that -- that was of camouflage patterns. Simply in order to

25 achieve some uniformity of clothing.

Page 4260

1 JUDGE ORIE: Has there also been a time where members of this army

2 would just be dressed in ordinary civilian clothing: T-shirts, jeans?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But again, attempts would be

4 made to have some kind of symbols on them. For instance, a piece of this

5 patterned cloth as an armband or something, just to indicate that so and

6 so was a member of the army.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you indicate approximately the time in which

8 you'd say that most of the members of the Bosnian government army would be

9 clearly identifiable by their -- well, uniforms, although perhaps not

10 official uniforms but their self-made uniforms?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. I forgot another thing

12 when you asked me the previous question. There were also some symbols, or

13 rather, an overwhelming majority of them had the symbol, or rather, the

14 coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the then-coat of arms of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Was there --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When exactly they began to look

18 uniformly, I wouldn't be able to say. But I think it was sometime in

19 1993. I wouldn't be able to remember exactly when.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that it took some time to

21 get them uniformally dressed? You're indicating approximately one year.

22 Am I correct in my understanding that ...?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well -- well, thereabouts, yes.

24 Now, after all this time, I couldn't be more precise. I really couldn't.

25 But let's say that that was -- that that was it, more or less.

Page 4261

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Yes. Perhaps one last question on this point, that is, the

4 uniforms we're talking now, about 1994. Could you confirm of course if

5 that was the case, that the official army, including the Territorial

6 Defence, did not have uniforms for all of the -- for the whole force, for

7 all the soldiers engaged?

8 A. I believe that in 1994, it was -- they all had a uniform look,

9 that is, that they practically all had their uniforms.

10 Q. Let me then be more precise. I'm talking about the official

11 uniform, not something like it, but not about the appearance. I'm talking

12 about the official uniform. Is that how you understand?

13 A. Right. If you call it that, the official uniform was the

14 camouflage uniform, which army members wore.

15 Q. Can you indicate what were the colours of this camouflage

16 uniform?

17 A. It was chiefly a combination of green and brown and beige.

18 Perhaps something that would be just green with no pattern.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. And I now go back. I will go back

20 to the tram itself.

21 The soldiers, did they have the right or the possibility to use

22 these trams?

23 A. I don't see why anyone should be exempt from using trams.

24 Q. Therefore, they had access to trams?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4262

1 Q. Right. At the time of the incident, that is, in June of 1994, on

2 that date, did the Bosnian army have its own means of transportation? I

3 mean, means of transportation of the troops. Did they have it in the

4 town?

5 A. You mean the means of all the transportation of their personnel?

6 No, not around the city.

7 Q. Thank you for this answer.

8 Witness, you lived in Sarajevo, and you discharged your police

9 duties. Will you please tell us, which was the brigade which was

10 territorially responsible for the area in which the incident happened?

11 A. You mean the army brigade?

12 Q. Not only the military brigade, but also if need be, the brigade of

13 the Territorial Defence.

14 A. As far as I know, the incident happened in the Centar

15 municipality. And in that part -- that part of the city, insofar as the

16 police was concerned, it was the centre police -- Public Security Station,

17 which brigade -- which brigade was responsible for that particular

18 area, I really can't tell you with any certainty. No, I don't think so.

19 Q. Can you, in that case, tell us where was the nearest military

20 command centre, the -- I mean, the nearest command centre of the army, the

21 nearest one to the place where the incident happened. The military

22 command centre.

23 A. No.

24 Q. You do not know, once being a policeman, where this command centre

25 was, the one that was nearest to the site of the incident? Is that how I

Page 4263

1 should understand your answer?

2 A. I can tell you where the police station is and how far it is from

3 the site of the incident; however, where the military headquarters were, I

4 really can't be all that precise because perhaps I could indicate the part

5 of the city, but where exactly they were headquartered, I don't know.

6 Q. Very well. Let us then start with that municipality and that

7 police station; that is, these two different things. So consequently,

8 Witness, where was the command post, the military command post centre?

9 You said that you could indicate it but not very precisely, by perhaps

10 indicating the part of the town where it is.

11 A. Could you precise the headquarters of what?

12 Q. Oh well, now, if we take it in order, the 1st Motorized Brigade,

13 do you know where they were?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Of the 2nd Motorized Brigade, do you know?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Of the 5th Motorized Brigade, do you know?

18 A. The way the brigades were distributed, its distribution, they way

19 they are positioned, I really couldn't give you a precise answer. I could

20 tell you approximately where the lines were. But which brigade held which

21 line, I don't think I could give you an answer.

22 Q. Now I'm not asking you who held which line but I'm talking about

23 the headquarters. And you don't know anything about the 5th brigade?

24 A. I can't remember. I can't remember which brigade that is.

25 Q. Witness, for the 1st Corps of the army, is your memory also not

Page 4264

1 certain?

2 A. The command of the 1st Corps was located, as far as I can

3 recall -- I think it was in the centre of the city, but I cannot quite

4 recall the name of the street.

5 Q. Witness, the incident did take place in the centre of the city; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you for your answer.

9 At which distance was the police station from the place of the

10 incident?

11 A. The police station -- the police station centre -- police station

12 centre cannot be seen from that place, because it's from the -- it's

13 behind the buildings where -- from where the incident happened.

14 Q. Yes. But at which distance? How far?

15 A. Perhaps 200 to 300 metres.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to confer a

18 moment, Mr. President, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will start with the line

22 of -- I would like to go further. I'm going to go on to the line of

23 questioning to do with the police structure a bit later on.

24 Q. But now back to the investigation that you did, the on-site

25 investigation with two other people who were not ballistics experts. And

Page 4265












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4266

1 now Witness, when this investigation took place, did you ask UNPROFOR

2 forces or any other international forces to take part in this

3 investigation?

4 A. On some investigations, yes, we did have --

5 Q. Sir, I'm talking about this particular incident in question. Did

6 you -- yes or no -- propose to the UNPROFOR to be present there on site?

7 A. Considering that I would receive the information to go to the

8 on-site investigation, then those who would organise the team to conduct

9 the investigation -- and I don't really know about this specific case,

10 whether they asked UNPROFOR -- the UNPROFOR to also be present at the

11 scene.

12 Q. Now, Witness, would you agree with me if you were not told -- you

13 were not told that the UNPROFOR would be present at the site of the

14 incident?

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that question.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.


18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase.

19 Q. Witness, were you informed at any moment that members of the

20 UNPROFOR will take part in the investigation?

21 A. Well, because there were always in and about time, then it could

22 be expected that they would be present at an investigation like this.

23 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer.

24 Now, should I conclude that every time that there was a problem,

25 you would be guided by a principle that UNPROFOR members would be present

Page 4267

1 or assist at the investigation?

2 A. In most cases, there were then UN monitors who were -- UN

3 observers who -- who would come to the site of the incident.

4 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer.

5 Would you agree with me that the police authority did not

6 consequently inform UNPROFOR authorities of these incidents?

7 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Perhaps the question could

8 be rephrased.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: The word "consequently," is ambivalent. I'm not sure

11 the question asks, and it could be misleading.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think "consequently" could

13 indicate a consequence in time, but also a consequence as far as logics

14 are concerned. Would you please rephrase your question.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will leave out

16 the "consequently."

17 Q. Now, in relation to what you told us, Witness, just a moment ago,

18 is it true to say that -- that the authorities, the police authorities, as

19 a general rule, did not inform UNPROFOR authorities of such incidents?

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Sorry, I think that we have a problem with the

21 transcript. In line 62.14, I think that -- when it says "I think

22 consequently," those are the words of Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 [Interpretation] I believe that you said "donk", therefore --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe, yes.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Interpretation] I think that you -- these are

Page 4268

1 your words. You have an excellent memory, so I'm inclined to trust it.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But it -- my second question,

3 I did not use either "donk," therefore or "consequemment," consequently.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Interpretation] In your first question, in

5 the original question.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 May I ask another time in line 63 -- page 63, line 4 [In English]

8 the words "you have an excellent memory," are your words.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I think I should

10 proceed, Your Honour. May I continue now with the same question? I'm not

11 going to use anything like "therefore," or "consequently," or "thus."

12 Q. So, Witness, I asked you a question. Could you please answer.

13 A. I think that UNPROFOR was informed about every incident.

14 Q. Witness, you just said a moment ago, if I understood you

15 correctly, that in this case -- about the case, the UNPROFOR was not

16 informed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't know that that is the

19 evidence. I don't recollect the witness saying that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please quote the source,

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to rephrase my

23 question.

24 Q. Witness, in relation to this incident, the UNPROFOR, was it

25 officially informed by the police authorities; yes or no?

Page 4269

1 A. I believe it was.

2 Q. Now, Witness, when such an information occurred, in which form

3 would it be? Would it be written? Would it be verbal?

4 A. I believe that it was done by the telephone. I'm sorry. I

5 answered hastily. I think it was on the phone.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness.

7 Now, could you tell us, to the best of your recollection or

8 knowledge, if the civilian or military authorities were informed of the

9 incident -- Serbian civilian or military authorities?

10 A. I'm sorry I did not understand the translation. Could you please

11 repeat.

12 Q. Yes. I'm going to repeat the question. Could you tell us if the

13 civilian or military authorities, Serbian civilian or military

14 authorities, were informed of the incident.

15 A. I don't know. I have no idea. I think so.

16 Q. Witness, as a rule, generally speaking, is it normal that your

17 police services where you worked, your police force, would inform civilian

18 or military authorities -- Serbian military or civilian authorities of

19 such an incident?

20 A. At that time, we were not in the courtroom. We were at war. So

21 there was no such exchange of information.

22 Q. Witness, I did understand you. We're not in a courtroom, and

23 there is no clash, conflict here. So I don't know why you're referring --

24 why you're making this reference. I'm just asking you to answer yes or

25 no, if that is possible, to my question. Did you inform -- do you know

Page 4270

1 about this? It's very simple.

2 A. No. From our side, there were no -- there was no information

3 given.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you very much for your clear answer. That, I

5 appreciate. Thank you. If we can continue in the same vein.

6 Now, I would like to go back to the question of the tram. We

7 could see that the tram was going in the Bosnian part of Sarajevo, Bosniak

8 part of Sarajevo. Did this tram also go in the Serbian part or parts of

9 Sarajevo?

10 MR. IERACE: I object to the question.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: It would be more appropriate for Mr. Piletta-Zanin to

13 name those parts, rather than presume an understanding as to what parts

14 were Bosniak and what parts of Serbian. That is an issue that's been in

15 dispute.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To some extent it is. Not in all respects, as

17 far as I can see.

18 But if you -- if you would be able, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to be more

19 precise on that.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm going to be even

21 more precise, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, before the war, the tram line that the tram that was

23 involved in the incident followed, did it continue in the same direction

24 I believe it was east-west or west-east. We would have to have

25 a look at that. And how long did that tram line continue?

Page 4271

1 A. This tram went from Bas Carsija to Nedzarici before the war, which

2 can be seen from its -- you can see that on it -- of its indication.

3 Q. Now, Witness, we'll have a look at that, but before the war, the

4 tram lines, did they go through certain areas which, at the time of the

5 war, started to be considered as being Serbian areas? Is that correct?

6 A. No. Those tram lines did not go through there.

7 Q. Thank you for this answer. Thank you. I would like to go on

8 regarding other elements of the police structure. And we would like to a

9 little later show a map to the witness.

10 Now, Witness, since you were a member of the police force, did

11 you -- yes or no -- take part in combat operations, you yourself?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Witness, members of your police unit, did they -- yes or no --

14 take part in combat operations?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Witness, these members, did they take part in any way in terms of

17 logistic support?

18 A. No, they did not. My department had nothing to do with combat

19 operations.

20 Q. Witness, before the war, police units, did they have weapons?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Witness, after the breakout of the war, what happened with weapons

23 arsenals? What happened that belonged to the police?

24 A. I can only tell you as far as I know from the media, that some

25 weapons depots were destroyed. But considering I was not a member of the

Page 4272












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4273

1 police before the war, I don't know exactly which depots they are.

2 Q. Now, Witness, my question was not related to before the war but

3 after the war broke out -- or rather, do you know if police force were

4 supposed to hand over their weapons to the military forces?

5 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

7 Do you know a unit that is known under the term of Vikiceva

8 [phoen] unit?

9 A. I heard the name because he's known to the -- this is a commander

10 of the then-special police force. But this is probably a -- a nickname or

11 a slang word for the way they called that unit.

12 Q. Now, thank you for this answer, and I'm just saying for the

13 transcript, this is Vikiceva unit. You said this was a special unit.

14 Could you tell us what kind of a unit this was.

15 A. Well, as far as I know, this was a classic anti-sabotage unit,

16 which had in its composition certain detachment for anti-sabotage, for

17 prevention of -- of riots, and also for rescue -- and a detachment for

18 rescue -- for mountain rescue.

19 Q. Now, Witness, if I indicate that this special unit also had --

20 consisted of about 1.200 members, does this correspond to the facts?

21 A. I couldn't answer that question.

22 Q. Did this special unit have a -- a military unit?

23 A. Not as far as I know. This was just a special task unit, as I've

24 already said.

25 Q. Witness, does the name Zrak mean anything to you? Zrak?

Page 4274

1 A. I don't know what you mean.

2 Q. Yes. The name did not appear correctly, and I did not pronounce

3 it properly. Is there a factory that was known as Zrak in Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you.

6 Now, Witness, do you know this factory?

7 A. I know that such a factory exists in Sarajevo.

8 Q. Witness, would you agree with me that this factory produced

9 optical instruments?

10 A. Yes, I believe it was something like that. I -- yes, I think that

11 that's what it was.

12 Q. Thank you for your answer. I'm going to return to the special

13 unit that we spoke about a moment ago. Is it true to say that these units

14 could be armed with rifles that had sights, that were produced in the Zrak

15 factory.

16 A. I wouldn't know that.

17 Q. Witness, do you know if within the police force there was a

18 unit -- a Bosniak unit which was an anti-sniper unit?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Witness, when you say "no," does this mean that you don't know it

21 or that it did not exist?

22 A. No, I don't know about it, such a unit.

23 Q. Thank you for your answer.

24 Witness, before looking at the map -- but I'm also looking at the

25 clock at the same time -- I would like to ask you to give us some

Page 4275

1 technical answers. Do you know how many men in 1993 and until the end of

2 June 1994 were normally members of a police force -- the entire police

3 force in Sarajevo?

4 A. I couldn't be able to give you an exact number. Perhaps

5 approximate.

6 Q. Witness, you said that you follow the training course which gave

7 you extensive knowledge of police matters. Now, could you tell us how

8 many police command posts there were in the city of Sarajevo, in

9 Sarajevo.

10 A. This was not an accelerated course. This was an ordinary course

11 for criminal technicians. Now, as for the military -- as for the police

12 stations.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter correction --

14 A. Police stations, there were four. There was CSB, Security

15 Services Centre, as the fifth. There was the building of the Ministry of

16 the Interior of the Republic.

17 Q. Now, could you tell us with precision where these buildings were

18 located that you just told us about.

19 A. Perhaps if I could have a map.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, I have

21 certain unmarked maps that are here. And for technical reasons, they will

22 be produced in two parts.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. May I remind you that the

24 Prosecution took 52 minutes to examine the witness. You are now at

25 approximately 73 minutes. Even if I were to deduct some time for

Page 4276

1 technical problems -- although we had similar technical problems during

2 the examination-in-chief as well -- could you please give us an indication

3 as to how much time you'd still need, and could you also perhaps, but not

4 too long, explain the relevance of all the police posts in town where this

5 witness, I think, mainly was testifying about the incident with the tram.

6 The first question was: How much time would you still need? I'm

7 not going to say to you yes or no. How much time?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, as little as possible.

9 But at the moment, I would like to locate these points of -- on the map,

10 as well as the front lines. If you ask me why I need that, then I will

11 have -- take great pleasure in answering this.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I say something at this stage --


14 MR. IERACE: -- which could be relevant to this issue. The next

15 witness is Mirsad Kucanin. He will be a long witness.


17 MR. IERACE: If we commence his evidence in the remaining 45

18 minutes, then it follows that is he goes over until Monday. On Monday --


20 MR. IERACE: -- the next proposed witness is Mr. Harding, who is

21 in a wheelchair.


23 MR. IERACE: If his evidence is delayed, it may or may not be

24 convenient for him to wait in a wheelchair.

25 We also have five or six other witnesses arriving on Monday night,

Page 4277

1 which will clearly take us well into and beyond next week.

2 The reason I raise these issues now is that I intend to make some

3 inquiries and have some discussions over the next break.


5 MR. IERACE: And it may be that I come back and respectfully

6 submit that it would be inappropriate to commence the evidence of a fresh

7 witness, that is, Mr. Kucanin, with only 45 minutes to go and with those

8 inevitable consequences. The alternative, it seems to me, would be that

9 we don't take -- we don't start Mr. Kucanin now so, that we can go on

10 to Mr. Harding on Monday and perhaps put Mr. Kucanin over until a later

11 time. But before I formally make that submission, I would be grateful to

12 have the opportunity to meet with some members of my team.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. So as a matter of fact, you're

14 saying that it might not be as inconvenient as it would have been

15 otherwise if the cross-examination of this witness would take a bit more

16 time.

17 MR. IERACE: Exactly.


19 Well, I'm quite surprised how the parties assist each other today,

20 and I welcome it.

21 So you don't have to answer my questions any more at this very

22 moment. I urge that you do it as quickly as possible. Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

23 I think it's wise to continue with the map after the break. If you

24 would -- if that would be suitable to you.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am very

Page 4278

1 glad to proceed. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll break until five minutes to 1.00. I'll give

3 you three minutes extra, because we are less in a hurry today.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I just assume that you're going to

7 inform the Court about what you found out. Yes, please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do make the application that we

9 don't call Mr. Kucanin today. I was able to speak to him during the break

10 since there was not an interpreter available. But I did speak to some

11 members of my team who informed me of some further complications. By not

12 calling Mr. Kucanin today, we can then proceed with Mr. Harding first

13 thing on Monday morning. And we may or may not call Mr. Kucanin straight

14 after Mr. Harding.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this doesn't change a lot in

16 your preparations as far as I can see.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, because I have excellent

18 news for the Prosecution. I shall be shorter than was envisioned. The

19 problem was however the following: I'd like if possible that we do not

20 change the order of witnesses for the simple reason that my colleague, who

21 is also the lead counsel, is not here. We cannot therefore take a

22 decision on this. And we have agreed to distribute the work, to share the

23 work if possible. So obviously, if the order is changed, then I would

24 like to be informed as soon as possible. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing, as far as I'm concerned, is that we

Page 4279












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4280

1 would not start today with the next witness and then go on -- we'll see.

2 Let's first finish the cross-examination of Mr. Vidovic and then see

3 what -- what happens.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

5 Q. Witness, I will now show you a map.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these maps are

7 exactly the same maps that we were using before. So this is a plan of

8 Sarajevo. It's original in colour exists somewhere, but merely for

9 simply -- for purely technical reasons, I will be using two photocopies.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I thought that you were going

12 to say something, Mr. President. I saw that your microphone was on, and

13 that is why I stopped.

14 I made several photocopies, and I believe that only two, however,

15 will be necessary. If, however, the witness wishes to mark something else

16 on this other photocopy, in that case, I will produce three photocopies so

17 that the maps will complement one another.

18 Q. Witness, I will now show you two photocopies that you will be

19 able, with the help of our usher, analyse and then put them on the

20 screen.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me say for the transcript,

23 Mr. President, that these are the left and the right side of the same map

24 that we produced for other witnesses. And I take the liberty of not

25 attaching these documents so that we could have a frontal view of all of

Page 4281

1 them, of course.

2 Q. Witness, I will ask you now to study these two documents.

3 Witness, do you recognise a plan which is a reproduction of the

4 plan showing the area of Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness.

7 I suggest that we start with the map which mentions Novi Grad.

8 And that is the left section of the map. Do you have it before you?

9 Thank you.

10 Very good. I see it placed on the ELMO. And let me just see if

11 we have the same thing here.

12 Right. Witness, on this map, can you show us where was it, to the

13 best of your recollection, the place or the places which you mentioned

14 before the break. You mentioned five or six locations of the police.

15 Will you please point at these locations on the map.

16 A. Police stations, right.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Meanwhile, usher, could you give the witness the marker -- the

20 black marker, evidently. Could you please give it to the witness.

21 I suggest, Witness, please, that you first -- wait, wait. Just a

22 moment. Wait. Wait a moment.

23 I suggest, Witness, that you first use the pointer. Will you then

24 please point to them with the pointer.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 4282

1 Q. Can you repeat that gesture, please.

2 A. The police Novi Grad police command, rather the Public Security

3 Station, was here. In this area, here. This is part of the Novi Grad

4 municipality.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness, will you please read out the name which you

6 see here in this location that you have just indicated.

7 A. Prvomajska Street.

8 Q. So it is the street of the 1st of May.

9 Will you now make a circle around that street using the black

10 marker.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And put number "1."

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 Well, now do the same thing again, pointing on this part of the

16 map, another station or stations, if there were any in this particular

17 part of the city.

18 A. In the Novi Grad municipality, there was this particular police

19 station. There were no other stations.

20 Q. Witness, and as for other municipalities, that is, on the same

21 section of the map outside the municipality of Novi Grad, were there

22 other -- or are there other police stations on the same map section

23 outside the municipality Novi Grad?

24 A. No, not as far as I can see.

25 Q. Very well. Witness, I will then ask you a more specific question

Page 4283

1 with regard to Alipasino Polje. Is there a police command post in that

2 area?

3 A. This part where I marked the police station, that is commonly

4 known as Alipasino Polje. Or to be more precise, it is Srakino Selo, that

5 is how it is known.

6 Q. Thank you. So as to make things completely clear, will you then

7 use the dotted line to indicate what you call Alipasino Polje. And if the

8 usher would move the map up so that we can see better this part of this

9 screen. Thank you. And it is now shadowed. Thank you.

10 A. So it would roughly be it.

11 Q. Will you please circle it. Will you make a circle around this

12 whole area of Alipasino Polje.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, at the bottom of what we see on the screen,

15 would it be correct to say that it is the area or, rather, the areas, the

16 localities of Dobrina?

17 A. That's right. That's where Dobrina is.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. And in the area of Dobrina,

19 isn't there a police command post?

20 A. This is a police department attached to the neighbourhood

21 community -- I mean, in practically every neighbourhood community would be

22 the patrol unit, a police patrol unit. I mean, these are patrols covering

23 a particular neighbourhood community. So I wouldn't call it a command

24 post. They have their --

25 Q. Right. Well, so we needed to look at something else. Will you

Page 4284

1 please tell us how was the police structured, that is, is it true that

2 there were police brigades; yes or no?

3 A. There was the police -- there were police who belonged to -- who

4 were under police stations.

5 Q. But was it organised brigades like the military?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So there were no brigades or battalions of the police?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And what police body did you belong to?

10 A. That was the criminal investigations department of the security

11 services, Sarajevo.

12 Q. And how was this centre organised, and to whom was it

13 subordinated?

14 A. There was the head, the chief of the centre. And the centre

15 basically covered the criminal investigation, that is, the criminal police

16 department.

17 Q. And the military police, was it something different from your

18 police force?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Will you please indicate on the map which are other command posts,

21 including the Ministry of the Interior, which you mentioned before the

22 break. And if the usher will help -- thank you, very much.

23 A. Let me just say, these are not command posts. These are police

24 stations.

25 Q. If the two maps don't coincide well, there is a centre part which

Page 4285

1 is better reproduced, and I can also give it to the witness, if these two

2 maps do not quite tally.

3 A. I've found what I needed. Here was the building of the police

4 administration of Novo Sarajevo, that is, that public security station.

5 Then here --

6 Q. Will you please circle the centre, and put number "2."

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And the street is ...?

9 A. It says Enver Sehovic Street. But I don't know if it is the

10 street. There's several small streets which -- the names of which are not

11 indicated here.

12 Q. Thank you. Will you now move on to points three, four, and so on

13 and so forth.

14 A. This is the centre police station.

15 Q. Yes, number 3.

16 A. The street is indicated as number 22, so that ...

17 Q. Thank you. Is that the name of the street? Is it the 22nd

18 Street, or does it have a different name? What is the name of the

19 street?

20 A. I'm not sure about its name. And the "22" I suppose is some

21 marking on the city map. I don't know exactly.

22 Q. Yes. That is true, Witness. But to the best of your

23 recollection, what was the name of this street? Do you know it?

24 A. No, I don't. I can't remember.

25 Q. Very well. Let's move on, point four. Can you please point at

Page 4286












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4287

1 it.

2 A. Here is the Stari Grad police station. So that will be number 4.

3 And the street is Logavina.

4 Q. Witness, to go back to number 3, couldn't it be Trscanska Street?

5 A. Which one?

6 Q. The street relative to number 3. Could it be the name of the

7 street, Trscanska?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. Will you now move on to number 5.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please make a pause after the

11 witness's answer.

12 A. This is where the centre -- security services centre is.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you may not have heard it, but the

15 interpreters have just requested that there be a pause between the

16 witness's answer and the counsel's question. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. I was listening to the French

18 channel.

19 May I ask both Mr. Piletta-Zanin and the witness to just wait

20 until the proceeds, so that the interpreters can translate what you

21 have been saying.

22 So please slow down a bit. Please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Thank you, Mr. Ierace, for the information.

25 Q. Witness, will you please continue. And I believe it has not been

Page 4288

1 fully marked, the name of what you just indicated and marked as "5," what

2 is this place and what is the name of the street?

3 A. This is where the security services centre was. The name of the

4 street was Augusta Cesarca and --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the current name

6 of the street. Will you please repeat the name of the street for the

7 interpreters.

8 A. Former is Augusta Cesarca Street? And now the street is called La

9 Benevolencije. This is a very proper name for the secret service.

10 Q. Witness, can we -- will you now indicate other locations

11 A. This is the Republican Ministry of the Interior building.

12 Q. Will you also tell us which is the street. I don't think we've

13 heard that yet.

14 A. I don't remember what it was called before the war. Now I believe

15 it is called Pruscak.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, are there any other command posts,

17 to your knowledge, linked to the police force?

18 A. These are all the police stations, the ones that I have just shown

19 you.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness, for clear answers. You told us previously

21 that you could indicate the confrontation lines. I'm quoting you from

22 memory. Could you do it now on a map.

23 However, before we proceed, will you please take the pointer and

24 indicate on the map, whichever map you prefer to use, be it the right

25 section of the map or the left section of the map.

Page 4289

1 A. Well, this is now approximately, as far as I know. Not what I

2 saw, but what I heard. It -- the line went more or less this way, somehow

3 here, roughly now. I could, of course, make doodles around the map,

4 but -- to circle it. It's somewhere here.

5 Q. Very well. Very well, Witness.

6 Since you've lived in Sarajevo, I think that your confirmation

7 might be useful. Will you, then, do exactly that, that is, to erase but

8 perhaps you should use a dotted line so that we can see which is the --

9 what was the location of the confrontation lines, to the best of your

10 recollection, of course.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: The witness has just been asked to indicate on the

14 map, to the best of his recollection, the location of the confrontation

15 lines. That is, in spite of the witness in his previous answer saying his

16 knowledge was based not on what he saw but what he heard, and that he

17 could only do so approximately, therefore, I object to the witness being

18 required to indicate on the map with a line the position of the

19 confrontation line. It would be of no assistance to the Tribunal, given

20 the state of this witness's knowledge.

21 [Trial chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it might not have surprised you

23 that I was conferring with my colleagues approximately on the same issue.

24 Could you please clarify to us what the relevance is, apart from other

25 problems, perhaps, with your question, as far as the map is concerned,

Page 4290

1 what the relevance is of what this witness heard from other people on

2 where the confrontation lines were. Is it because you want to know where

3 the confrontation lines are, or is it because you want to check the

4 reliability, whether the witness has heard it well from other people?

5 Then I would expect that you will call the other people as witnesses. So

6 in order to ask them what they said, where the confrontations lines were.

7 Could you please indicate to us what -- what is the -- this exercise, what

8 does it serve at this moment.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is

10 because I think -- although I could perhaps find it in the transcript --

11 because the witness said at the very start of the cross-examination that

12 he could perfectly well draw the front lines. And so I thought that

13 because he had said it, that he knew partly because of professional

14 reasons and because he's a policeman, that he probably found out because

15 of his professional capacity, rather than personally, what is pertinent

16 here.

17 Also, we would like to remind that the incidents that happened on

18 the confrontation lines, demarcation lines, and we note that sometimes

19 they are confused with the trench lines. Since we've got enough time to

20 ask these questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We can please first indicate to me -- I'm trying to

22 find it -- where the witness said that he was able to give the

23 confrontation lines. And then perhaps if you say that the incident

24 happened at the confrontation line, would we have to go through all the

25 confrontation lines of Sarajevo, which I have to assume, after 32 days in

Page 4291

1 court, that it might not all be on the map, which of course would create

2 other problems.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If you

4 will authorise me, I will find the place where the witness said this. But

5 perhaps we could ask him the question, whether this is according to his

6 recollection. But I believe this is what he said to me.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if he now says that what he knows about the

8 confrontation lines is what he heard from other people, I mean, I do know

9 that in this Tribunal, hearsay evidence is not as such inadmissible, but I

10 still have some serious doubts as to what this will add to other evidence

11 that this Court will hear and has heard already on where confrontation

12 lines are.

13 But just look first where he said it. I'm doing the same at this

14 very moment.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do it,

16 Mr. President. But I would like to stress that in relation to the

17 incident, the witness declared that the shot came from the Serb side. So

18 he must have seen where the confrontation line was between the two

19 parties.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I've got no problem whatsoever if

21 you ask the witness the confrontation lines near to where the incident

22 happened. It's also clear what the witness said about what in his opinion

23 was the source of the fire. So that would give us some guidance as to

24 concentrate on what confrontation lines. But to go around the whole

25 Sarajevo, I think is not that relevant. But ...

Page 4292

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you for a

2 few moments so that I can find this place where the witness said it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

4 What I found, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, now is on page 52, line 12, where

5 the answer of the witness to your question was: "To begin with, let me

6 repeat once again that I was not a member of the army. I was in the

7 police. And the people who were -- who wear military uniforms were

8 presumably on the front lines, and I did not go to them. I was in the

9 city." I see no other "front," or "confrontation lines." I did use

10 the search engine in this programme.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, it can happen. This is

12 one of the minor difficulties that we have occasionally, because we have

13 three texts on the base of which we have to work. But maybe I could

14 examine it later. I don't think it's that important. But I think that

15 the witness said that he could, if he was asked to, to draw the lines of

16 the front, the front lines. But perhaps we could see later.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's not my recollection, since the witness

18 testified later on that what he knew about the front lines was about

19 the --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. We can

21 continue like this.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... questions that

23 are related to the front lines near to the incident.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 4293












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4294

1 Q. Witness, could you please take the map that you have before you

2 and locate the place of the incident and indicate for us -- if you can

3 indicate the place of the incident.

4 A. The incident happened on the location of Marin Dvor,

5 approximately here, up to the technical school. It would be approximately

6 here, the area -- the location where the incident happened. The tram was

7 coming from the direction of Bas Carsija. So it would be like this.

8 Approximately here I could circle.

9 Q. Do not indicate anything on the map, please. Do not indicate

10 anything on the map, please. Do not indicate anything.

11 My microphone sometimes works and sometimes it doesn't, but I

12 asked you not to indicate anything because I wanted to ask you to --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've just realised that on the copy of

15 the map that I've been given, there are already some crosses and a

16 circle. And they appear to be also on the map that the witness is

17 marking. And I suspect that they're relevant to the same incident. I

18 therefore say this, Mr. President, that especially given the questions the

19 witness is now being asked, it is entirely inappropriate for the witness

20 to be given such a map.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm sorry. I apologise.

23 I'm just looking at my maps. What are -- what are the circles that you're

24 referring to?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course we see -- we see close

Page 4295

1 to where the witness marked a "2" we see a circle around another line

2 first. We also see just below the word "Marin Dvor," we see some old

3 markings on the map.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm so sorry,

5 Mr. President. I'm very sorry. Again, I apologise. But this is the

6 drama of the photocopier because we reused the same copies that we had

7 prepared earlier. And I'm very sorry, because it is so faint that I

8 couldn't see it. So I'm sorry. I thought this was a clean map. But in

9 fact I do see a very faint circle going around [indiscernible], and I

10 thought I was using a completely unmarked maps. I sincerely apologise.


12 Mr. Ierace, are these markings such that you would oppose against

13 the continued use of this map at this very moment, or -- I do agree with

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, not that it is the drama of the photocopying machine

15 but the drama of not taking out earlier markings. But as far as I can

16 see, they are not of a nature which would very much influence the answers

17 of the witness. But if you have of an opposite position ...

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't -- I don't have any further

19 objection. In other words, I'm content for the Defence to continue to use

20 the map in spite of my reservations. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Again, I would

23 like to reiterate my apologies to the Prosecution and to the Chamber. I

24 think we used the old photocopies.

25 Q. Witness, on this photocopy, could you indicate in a line, a wavy

Page 4296

1 line, could you tell us what you thought to be a line of separation, a

2 demarcation line.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately where, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? You'd say

4 close to where the incident happened?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. That's

6 what I said. "In relation to this incident." But I would -- did not want

7 to lead the witness too much, in order to avoid any objection.

8 A. I think that in this case, it was approximately near the Miljacka

9 River, where the demarcation/confrontation line was. At the time, it was

10 not possible to see it from this area. But I will approximately be able

11 to draw.

12 Q. Yes, please, Witness. If you can just mark the line.

13 A. Approximately.

14 Q. So for the transcript, the witness is drawing a line, partially

15 interrupted, partially broken.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we perhaps zoom in,

17 please. The line is to the south of point number 3 and number 5.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 The very last thing: I would like to now have one of the

20 photographs put on the ELMO, one of the photographs that the Prosecution

21 showed you which shows the impact on one of the central pillars inside the

22 tram. And I will indicate to you the number very shortly.

23 The number given by the Prosecution on the exhibits, and this is

24 0217226 [as interpreted]. Witness, you said in your written statement

25 that you were able to identify the projectile as having been able to come

Page 4297

1 from where it came from; is that correct?

2 A. Well, it was from a side arm, a personal weapon.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you for this answer.

4 Witness, this type of personal weapon that you told us about, can

5 fire projectiles that we normally call "bullets"; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The types of bullets that are used, are they -- do they end in

8 a -- in a peak, or in a tip?

9 A. I don't understand. Do you mean this one in particular?

10 Q. In general. Do the -- are the bullets pointed, in general?

11 A. It depends which weapons we are talking about. For a rifle,

12 they're mostly pointed. And for pistols, they're mostly rounded tipped.

13 Q. So are we talking about a rifle that was used?

14 A. These are just parts of -- fractions of bullets, according to

15 which it was impossible to say which kind of weapon was used. But this

16 was then forwarded for further analysis. So I couldn't answer this

17 question.

18 Q. Witness, didn't you declare that from these fragments, bullet

19 fragments, you were able to deduce that it was fired from a weapon of 7.9

20 millimetre caliber? Witness, didn't you say -- didn't you declare that

21 this type of weapon could have been fired -- this bullet could have been

22 fired from different weapons and from a M48 rifle, or a semi-automatic

23 special gun that is designed as a sniper gun, or M-53, 7.9 millimetres

24 caliber machine-gun? Didn't you say this?

25 A. Yes. Because it is a larger bullet, because of the fragments that

Page 4298

1 were found, it is most probably this type of weapon, yes.

2 Q. Very well. Now, Witness, so these were bullets that were pointed;

3 right? And this was a rifle that was used; is that correct? Probably?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you for your answer.

6 Now, this is my very last question. I would like to zoom to the

7 point which is to the -- of the arrow, of the arrow. Not the circle. The

8 point of the arrow, please, the tip of the arrow. To the tip of the

9 arrow. This is still a circle and a number. Yes, here it is. This is the

10 arrow.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please focus, put it

12 in the centre, please. Go back a bit.

13 Could you go closer, zoom. Zoom in. Could we have it clearer,

14 please.

15 Now, Mr. President, what I'm going to ask doesn't really come from

16 the technical aspect.

17 Yes, very much thank you. This is perfect.

18 Q. Witness, isn't it true to say that the impact that we can see


20 here --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] and Mr. President, this can be

22 seen more clearly on the photograph --

23 Q. -- is that this is not quite the rectangular form and is completely

24 limited within this square? Could you look at the photograph 756,

25 please.

Page 4299

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd object to the question. It

2 doesn't make sense to me.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Perhaps my friend could rephrase it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I have another problem at this moment.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I know -- just wait. When we resumed, you said

7 you had a good message for Mr. Ierace, and that would be that you'd take

8 not much time. That was 50 minutes ago. You know the order of the

9 examination of witnesses. That means that there should be a possibility

10 to re-examine the witness, but the Prosecution and the Judges, if there

11 are any additional questions, would be that we also have the opportunity.

12 You also know that we are at the end of the week. We also know

13 what problems we have, as far as the -- as far as the return of witnesses

14 to Sarajevo is concerned.

15 Nevertheless, you took 50 minutes, risking that the Prosecution

16 would not be in a position to re-examine the witness, that there would be

17 no time any more for the Judges. I do not understand this to be a good

18 message. Well, the message was good, but the way you used your time was

19 not good.

20 Please put your question, make it short, avoid any unnecessary

21 language in repeating and do it quickly, please.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Was the trace square?

24 A. According to the photograph, it looks as if it was a square, which

25 is possible. It could have been. The bullet was like that.

Page 4300

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other questions,

2 Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 Mr. Ierace, is there any need to examine the witness?

5 Yes, I now have to turn to the interpreters and to the registrar

6 as well, whether we -- or if it would be possible to continue just perhaps

7 for --

8 MR. IERACE: Three minutes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- three minutes for the Prosecution, perhaps a

10 couple of minutes for the Bench as well. Would that be possible, or would

11 this create insurmountable problems?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. We can continue in this

13 courtroom.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much.

15 Mr. Ierace, proceed.

16 MR. IERACE: I'm very grateful, Mr. President

17 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

18 Q. Please place on the ELMO the map that you marked, that is, the one

19 that shows Marin Dvor.

20 You said earlier -- first of all, you were asked when you

21 indicated on the map where the tram was. You had said earlier it was at

22 the front of a church. Can you please locate the church on the map.

23 A. Here. This is where the church is.

24 Q. Could you please place an arrow with a blue pen pointing to that

25 church.

Page 4301

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 You were asked some questions about your opinion as to the size of

4 the bullet and the types of weapons that it could be fired from. In your

5 statement dated the 15th of November, 1995, did you say this:

6 "We did locate small pieces of the bullet. According to the

7 ballistics analysts, the bullet was a 7.9 millimetre. It could have been

8 fired from several different weapons. They are the M-48 rifle, or a 7.9

9 semi-automatic special designed sniper gun, or M-53 7.9 millimetre

10 caliber machine-gun"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

14 Oh, I'm sorry. Just one further question.

15 Q. Is that still your evidence?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Any questions from the Bench?

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you. While being

20 cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you talked about using a string in

21 order to establish what the direction of a bullet or projectile would be.

22 Did you use a string in your investigation in this case, or were you

23 referring to a technique used in these kind of investigations?

24 A. This is a usual technique that is used. And here, this is -- was

25 just used to put a link between the impact point and the entry point,

Page 4302

1 because the tram moved from the place where the incident happened.

2 Otherwise, it was used to determine the direction from which the bullet

3 came from.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So it had just been used to indicate where the point

5 of impact and the point of entry was, without drawing any conclusions from

6 that string exercise in relation to the source of the fire? Am I correct

7 in understanding that?

8 A. This can be calculated and is done by experts. And they also use

9 another instrument. They use an optical instrument for that, in order to

10 determine exactly the spot from where the shot came from. But of course

11 if the -- the place from which it was fired is the place from which it was

12 fired, we have two places, then it is possible to determine this.

13 Now, if we have a bullet that comes into the room, then it is

14 possible to determine. But in this case, you can determine the direction,

15 but the tram moved from the spot from where it was hit.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So you cannot make a proper calculation of where it

17 came from?

18 A. No. I could not point my finger exactly and say where the shot

19 came from.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Vidovic, for answering

21 all our questions.

22 I would suggest to the parties that we first say goodbye to

23 Mr. Vidovic and then deal with the other matters we still have to do.

24 That means how we proceed next Monday, and of course the admission in

25 evidence of the documents.

Page 4303

1 Mr. Vidovic, you've come a far way from Sarajevo in order to

2 answer all the questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.

3 You'll understand it's very important for this Court to hear direct from

4 those who have been present during the events in the early 1990s and who

5 were at the place of the events. So I thank you very much for having come

6 to The Hague, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --

9 Mr. Usher, will you please lead the witness out of the courtroom.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 And Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through the

12 documents.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The set of eight photographs, P3656; the report

14 from the police station in B/C/S, P2696; and the English translation,

15 P2696.1.

16 The report from the public security station, in B/C/S, P3655; in

17 the English translation, P3655.1.

18 The two maps: The first map with one marking, I believe it's --

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's D51. Is that --


21 JUDGE ORIE: That would be the eastern part of the map of Sarajevo

22 -- the Western. I'm mistaking. I'm sorry. It's the western part.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. And the second map, D52.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With five numbered markings and one line on

25 it. They're admitted in evidence.

Page 4304

1 Then we still have to decide on how we proceed next week.

2 Mr. Ierace, you told us that there were some problems in hearing

3 the testimony of Mr. Kucanin. Could you please explain a bit more about

4 it or when that's possible.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have not yet been able to speak to

6 Mr. Kucanin to discover his preferences. The situation is that the next

7 witness, according to the order, is Mr. Kucanin, and then after him,

8 Mr. Harding.

9 We've made some inquiries of Mr. Harding in the last hour and a

10 half, and he is able to stay until Wednesday. So that theoretically

11 allows the possibility for Mr. Kucanin on Monday. However, Mr. Kucanin's

12 estimate for evidence in chief is three hours, and it's likely to be that

13 long. He has a lot to say.

14 So Mr. President, at this stage, I would be grateful for the

15 opportunity to make some further inquiries and then inform the Trial

16 Chamber and the Defence within, say, the next two and a half hours of the

17 order. It will be either Kucanin-Harding, or Harding-Kucanin, or Harding

18 and then Kucanin goes over to a latter date.

19 Whichever of those three options the Prosecution takes subject to

20 the leave of the Trial Chamber should not impact too adversely on the

21 Defence because they have been told firstly that the order is

22 Kucanin-Harding, and secondly, that we proposed to call Harding at the

23 beginning of next week.

24 Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 4305

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

2 giving me the floor. The Defence does not share the view of the

3 Prosecution.

4 My lead counsel in this case is supposed to prepare this weekend

5 to hear the witness that was initially on the programme. And I'm not able

6 to contact her this weekend.

7 Also, I am not going to be able to do that either. So with no

8 preparation is it possible for the witness that is being proposed

9 instead of the initially proposed witness. So since we were not informed

10 about this before, the Defence will not be able to accept this, and we

11 would like to ask for the respect of the programme as it was established.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, who's going to prepare for the

14 cross-examination of Mr. Harding? You or Ms. Pilipovic?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, to tell

16 you the truth of the matter, we haven't yet had time to pay any attention

17 to it because we knew that the witness would take a whole day or even more

18 than a day. So we thought three hours for the Prosecution, then three

19 hours for the Defence. So we haven't yet decided who would cross-examine

20 the witness. So I cannot furnish you with an answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's just see what --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But it is certain that none of

23 us, neither my lead counsel nor myself, were ready for Mr. Harding. We

24 haven't even read the documents. You would not -- we don't have any

25 documents that would allow us to work on this; and I'm speaking for

Page 4306

1 myself. So it is absolutely impossible for me.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If you'll give me just one second.

3 You told us that your lead counsel in this case is supposed to

4 prepare this weekend to hear the witness that was initially on the

5 programme. That means that for the next witness, preparation still had to

6 be made. I see that Mr. Harding has been announced to you as being heard

7 on the 25th of February and at the 15th of February. I also do understand

8 that you still have to prepare for your next witness. Let me just confirm

9 with my colleagues.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 I conferred with my colleagues, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And we are now

12 Thursday 2.00 -- until Monday morning 9.00 is three and a half days. You

13 told us that neither the Defence have yet prepared the cross-examination

14 of Mr. Harding but also not the cross-examination of Mr. Kucanin. I see

15 that there are no exhibits indicated by the Prosecution for Mr. Harding.

16 The Defence knows since the 15th of February that in the beginning of next

17 week Mr. Harding would be examined. This Chamber allows the Prosecution

18 to change the order and to start the examination-in-chief of Mr. Harding

19 next Monday morning.

20 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I did not

22 say from what I see in the transcript -- I did not say that the Defence

23 has not prepared its file for the cross-examination. What I said simply

24 is that my colleague who is going to take charge of this has been working

25 on it for some time and that she will continue to prepare herself over the

Page 4307

1 weekend. What I have said is that I had no opportunity --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I did read your words literally as

3 they appeared in the transcript. So there's no misunderstanding about

4 what you said. I'm not saying that there has been no prior preparation

5 from the part of the Defence, but the final preparation, which is still

6 necessary to cross-examine the witness is -- it has to be finalised over

7 the weekend. You told us that that had not been done yet, nor for

8 Mr. Harding, nor for Mr. Kucanin.

9 So therefore, we'll adjourn until next Monday.

10 And Madam Registrar, usually on Monday we start not at 9.00, but

11 at 9.30. So we'll adjourn until the -- until next Monday, 9.30. I think

12 that's the 25th of February.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 2.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

15 the 25th day of February, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.