Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4308

1 Monday, 25 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone after this long weekend.

6 Mr. Ierace. Let me just first ask the Registrar to call the case, because

7 I had forgotten that. Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you may recall that last Friday, the

13 Prosecution sought leave to change the order of witnesses. The next

14 witness will be retired squadron leader Carl Harding, and he will be taken

15 by Mr. Waespi.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We discussed the change of order in your

17 absence, Ms. Pilipovic, as you might have heard meanwhile.

18 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness into the courtroom.

19 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next witness is in a wheelchair,

21 and I should make clear that the circumstances in which he came to be in a

22 wheelchair have nothing to do with what happened in Sarajevo. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's good to know.

24 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 4309

1 Good morning to begin with. Thank you for giving me the floor. Here I

2 wish to mention that the Defence had only extremely limited time, not to

3 say no time at all, to prepare for the cross-examination of this witness

4 for the reasons that you know. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Harding, as I understood.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harding, before giving testimony in this

11 courtroom -- first of all, welcome in this courtroom -- the rules require

12 you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole

13 truth and nothing but the truth. The text of this solemn declaration will

14 be handed out to you now by the usher. And since I do understand that you

15 speak English, I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

17 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harding.

19 Mr. Waespi, you may examine the witness.

20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning,

21 Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Harding.


23 Examined by Mr. Waespi:

24 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Court with your full

25 name.

Page 4310

1 A. My name is Carl Daniel Edwin Harding.

2 Q. What is your date of birth?

3 A. 14th September, 1964.

4 Q. Are you married?

5 A. I'm married?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please break

8 between question and answer.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I immediately ask you both just to pause for

10 a while so that the translators are able first to translate the question,

11 and then to translate the answer because if you continue speaking in the

12 same language on a continuous basis, then they will not be able to follow

13 it.

14 Yes, please.


16 Q. Let me briefly go through your military career. Is it correct

17 that you served with the Royal Air Force regiment for 16 years, and you

18 retired in March 2000?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And the Royal Air Force regiment is the branch of the RAF that has

21 responsibility for ground defence?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And it's correct, therefore, that your training is akin to that of

24 an infantry office, even though you served in the RAF?

25 A. That's right, yes.

Page 4311

1 Q. Now, let's go to your service in Sarajevo. What time did you

2 arrive in Sarajevo?

3 A. I arrived in Sarajevo late July of 1992.

4 Q. When did you leave Sarajevo?

5 A. In January 1993.

6 Q. Do you recall the exact date when you left?

7 A. Approximately the 23rd of January, 1993.

8 Q. Now, in Sarajevo, in what capacity were you there?

9 A. I was there as an unarmed military observer, which was given the

10 name of "UNMO."

11 Q. What was your initial assignment as an UNMO, and where was your

12 initial posting?

13 A. My assignment as an UNMO was to observe and to report all military

14 activity from either side. My first position was known as PAPA 1, which

15 was a gun position high on a hill on the northern side of the city.

16 Q. Now, when you say -- first of all, perhaps UNMO, what does UNMO

17 stand for?

18 A. UNMO is United Nations military observer.

19 Q. And you just mentioned also "PAPA." What does "PAPA" stand for?

20 A. PAPA is from the phonetic alphabet and it stood for Presidency

21 which identified that I was within the city. If I was outside of the

22 city, all signs would be LIMA, and that stood for Lukavica.

23 Q. And LIMA observers would observe which weapons of which warring

24 faction?

25 A. LIMAs would observe on the Bosnian Serb side, and PAPA would be

Page 4312

1 within the city for the Bosnian side.

2 Q. Now, can you tell us how many PAPA locations were there at your

3 time, and perhaps you can refer to a map in telling the Judges where these

4 positions were.

5 MR. WAESPI: And I would like the usher to give the map numbered

6 Prosecution Exhibit 3644, a fresh one, to this witness. I understand that

7 later it will be identified as H, but perhaps the Registrar can be more

8 specific.

9 Mr. Harding, if you can briefly look at your screen because there

10 you can see what part the Judges...

11 THE WITNESS: I was just trying to make sure I can see them all.


13 Q. Just take your time. As soon as you have had the chance to

14 orientate yourself, we will ask you to identify the old PAPA positions you

15 were aware of at the time you arrived, and please take us through starting

16 with Number 1. And after you have started, perhaps you can be provided

17 with a blue pen so you can mark with a circle and add the number to it,

18 which PAPA location you are referring to.

19 A. PAPA 1 was on the hill below the television transmitter area.

20 PAPA 2 was lower down the same hill.

21 Q. Perhaps one second to say for the record, you are using I think a

22 black pen, and you are making triangulars. But it doesn't really matter.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Actually, I think a blue pen is used, and it should

24 be a blue pen because blue is the colour for the Prosecution. It's rather

25 dark blue, and the triangulars is correct, yes.

Page 4313

1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: It's blue pen.

3 MR. WAESPI: Thanks.

4 A. PAPA 3 was located in a small office block next to the Lion

5 Cemetery. PAPA 4 was the old olympic stadium. PAPA 5 overlooked the

6 railway lines and barracks at Rajlovac. There was two positions. The

7 southern one was the observation post. The northern one was for

8 administration and where you would sleep. Observed from this one and

9 slept and administration at that one.

10 Q. Yes. Perhaps you can mark the northern one with an A, 5A, and

11 the southern one with a B.

12 A. [Marks].

13 And finally...

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please have it on the ELMO before you mark

15 it, yes, so we see your hand on the screen.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's difficult to see on a photocopy. And the

17 headquarters of the PAPA side UNMOs was in a building adjacent to the

18 Presidency in the city.


20 Q. Mr. Harding, was there also a time when a PAPA Number 6 was

21 established?

22 A. Yes, the positions I've shown were the positions when I first

23 arrived in Sarajevo. After reconsideration, some of the positions were

24 moved so as to provide better locations from which to observe. Can I mark

25 the new locations on the map?

Page 4314












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Page 4315

1 Q. Yes, please.

2 A. With a circle.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. To start, PAPA 1 was withdrawn completely as the weapons moved.

5 PAPA 2 was moved along the side of the hill and was fairly close to where

6 it was originally, but the house was much higher and had a much better

7 view. It was just higher up the hill.

8 PAPA 3, which overlooked the Lion Cemetery, was withdrawn. PAPA

9 5, the two locations for PAPA 5, were both withdrawn. New PAPA 5 was put

10 in place which directly overlooked the PTT building.

11 Q. Can you perhaps at this point tell us what the PTT building was.

12 A. The PTT building was the headquarters for UN operations at the

13 time.

14 Q. Are you able to show us on the map where that building was?

15 A. Approximately this location.

16 Q. Yes. Perhaps you can also draw a circle and add a "P" to it.

17 A. PTT building, in this area. It's difficult to tell on this map

18 where the main UN headquarters were. There's also the location for our

19 field hospital run by the French.

20 Q. When did this change of P5, for instance, did come into effect?

21 A. PAPA 5 was moved about September of 1992, I can't remember the

22 exact date. The new observation post was put in place, known as PAPA 6.

23 PAPA 6 was high on the hill directly south of Bistrik barracks, which

24 is where the Egyptian battalion was.

25 Q. When was PAPA 6 established?

Page 4316

1 A. Without referring to my notes, it's about late September.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

4 Defence has one objection. Could the map be zoomed in to enable us to

5 precisely locate it and what is it where it says PAPA 6. We simply cannot

6 see. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could it please be zoomed in a bit more so that

8 the Defence is better able to...

9 A. PAPA 6 was high on the hill just below the treeline. It had a

10 purpose-built observation post, and the administration area was in a house

11 right next door to it and on the treeline. It was high on the hill. It

12 looked over all of the old city and west to the hills on the other side of

13 the valley -- I'm sorry, east to the hills on the other side of the

14 valley. The aim of these -- this redeployment was PAPA 6 could see the

15 eastern end of the city, the new PAPA 2 could see the centre of the city,

16 and PAPA 5 could see the west end of the city.


18 Q. Mr. Harding in general--

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

20 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry for that.

21 Q. Mr. Harding, what was the reason for the establishment of a PAPA

22 observation point? Let's take PAPA 1 where you were at initially. Why

23 was there an observation post?

24 A. At PAPA 1, which is high on the hill just below the television

25 transmitter, there were four 105-millimetre Howitzers, small field guns.

Page 4317

1 With those guns, there were 50 personnel, and they lived in a house next

2 to their weapons.

3 Q. So is it correct to say that PAPA locations were placed where

4 there was weaponry, military equipment from the AH side?

5 A. That's correct. PAPA 1 had the field guns. PAPA 2, which was

6 below, had some other mechanised pieces of equipment. PAPA 3 had some

7 other APCs, armoured personnel carry yes, sir, and PAPA 4, there were some

8 mortars and vehicles to move these. PAPA 5 was the only true observation

9 post when I first arrived in Sarajevo.

10 Q. And if the location of a PAPA was moved, what was the reason for

11 that?

12 A. The reason to redeploy all of the PAPA call signs was because they

13 were not doing proper observation duty of the city, and the equipment that

14 they were with was very static in that it didn't work or they did not have

15 any ammunition for it.

16 Q. For instance, the APCs you have mentioned at PAPA 3, did they ever

17 move?

18 A. No, they didn't.

19 Q. Now, let me take you back to PAPA position 1. These men you

20 described, I think you mentioned the figure of 50, were they in uniform?

21 A. There was 50 men. The occasional one would have a camouflage

22 jacket, and one or two would have camouflage trousers. But the majority

23 of those 50 men were in normal civilian clothing without small arms,

24 without helmets.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4318

1 You mentioned the four artillery pieces at PAPA Number 1. Were

2 these pieces active?

3 A. When I arrived, the guns had not been active for some time. They

4 had had ammunition. The empty boxes were there, as were the empty cases.

5 But you could tell by the area around each gun and the way that it was dug

6 into the ground, there must have been firing when the ground was wet and

7 fairly sodden because you could see boot marks and footprints. But now

8 the whole area was completely dry and everything had shrunk down to lock

9 the weapons in place. They hadn't moved for at least a week and a half

10 when I first arrived, which would have been end of July 1992.

11 Q. Apart from the static PAPA observation posts which you had

12 identified number by number, were also patrols made?

13 A. When I first arrived, the patrols were normally on administrative

14 duties. However, there was one location that had T-55 tanks, and that was

15 checked every day by a patrol. Later on, when the observation posts were

16 moved, there was a much greater patrol in order to monitor the armoured

17 vehicles that once had PAPA observers next to them.

18 Q. You mentioned tanks, T-55 tanks, I believe you said. Can you tell

19 us the locations of those tanks?

20 A. There were two T-55 tanks, and they were in a tunnel where

21 vehicles would go through. There were two tunnels, one of which wasn't

22 finished because there was no road connecting it. The other one was used

23 all the time. On the northern end of that tunnel, the tanks were just

24 inside and just parked up.

25 Q. Did these tanks, to your knowledge, were they guarded?

Page 4319

1 A. No, there was no guard on them, and we were free to climb on them,

2 have a good look around. We had record of their serial numbers and

3 identifying features. But they were just static with nobody there.

4 Q. How many times were they checked, these tanks but also other ABiH

5 weaponry?

6 A. At a minimum, they would have been checked twice a day, once in

7 the morning and once late in the afternoon. But as the vehicles were

8 moving around, as the UN vehicles were moving around, they were on a very

9 popular route and therefore were driven past numerous times each day.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

11 Now, you said you were initially stationed at PAPA 1. Was there a

12 time you moved to PAPA 5?

13 A. Yes, I stayed at PAPA 1 for four or five days until I'd finished

14 digging defensive bunker. I then moved on to PAPA 5, which overlooked

15 Rajlovac barracks at the western end of the city.

16 Q. While you were there at PAPA 5, can you tell us of a specific

17 incident which you recall?

18 A. In the initial PAPA 5, the -- I'll show you on the map. As I said

19 at the start, PAPA 5 was split into two locations. This location was for

20 the sleeping and administration --

21 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. This location, you just pointed at 5

22 --

23 A. Yes, at location 5A, the northern location was in a house,

24 administration. The location 5B was the observation post that was manned

25 at night. There was one occasion where I was manning location 5B, which

Page 4320

1 was in a house that was only half built, the building next door to me was

2 engaged by heavy weapons such as 12.7 millimetre heavy machine-gun or 20

3 millimetre anti-aircraft gun. All these buildings are made of very soft

4 building, and we just had to stand our ground. There was also occasion

5 when I was at 5 alpha, the front line is very close to it on the northern

6 side, to the east of it, and to the west of it, so there was an occasion

7 where there was a large gun battle in the area, firing down the street in

8 front of our house, as well as numerous mortars landing approximately 75

9 metres from our house.

10 This was the second position that I manned, and I was there for

11 approximately three days.

12 Q. How long did you act as an UNMO in the observation post PAPA 1 and

13 PAPA 5?

14 A. I was an UNMO until late September when I became part of the PAPA

15 headquarters staff initially with the post of logistics officer. In that

16 post, I was responsible for resupply of all of the PAPA UNMO positions.

17 Q. Was there a time that you also became operations officer?

18 A. Yes. Started at logistics, and at that time there was an

19 operations officer as well as a subsector commander. So there were three

20 people on the headquarters. I became logistics officer. The operations

21 officer was moved out of the sector, was not replaced, and I became the

22 operations officer and second in command for the PAPA UNMOs.

23 Q. How long did you perform this job as an operations officer?

24 A. I was doing both those jobs until the 23rd of November when I

25 became the subsector commander on the PAPA side.

Page 4321












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Page 4322

1 Q. Who was your superior as a subsector commander?

2 A. My superior, when I became the subsector commander, was Lieutenant

3 Colonel Richard Mole. He was posted out from the sector and was replaced

4 by Lieutenant Colonel cut -- Cutler.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding. Now, as a subsector commander, what were

6 your duties and what were you in command of?

7 A. Subsector commander is in command of all the PAPA UNMOs, that's

8 all the observation posts, patrols, responsible for resupply, collation of

9 information and tasking PAPA side UNMOs for utility repair duties as

10 required and any other duties required within the sector. I was

11 responsible for those PAPA side UNMOs in all respects.

12 Q. How many UNMOs were under your command?

13 A. The number would vary, but on average the -- between 20 and 25.

14 All officers, captains and above, three of them were lieutenant colonels,

15 and my rank was a major.

16 Q. Just one last question before we move on to a specific incident:

17 Having seen these UNMO posts, especially PAPA 1 and PAPA 5 but also others

18 which you have [indiscernible], did you form a view about the

19 professionalism of the ABiH soldiers?

20 A. When we come into direct contact with these soldiers, at PAPA 1,

21 there was 50, or at PAPA 4 which is the location under the stadium, the

22 majority were -- had minimum training. An example would be PAPA 1 gun

23 position, one of the men had been a costume designer and maker for the

24 television studio. Three and a half months later, he is now manning

25 artillery pieces, and that's just one example of the civilian

Page 4323

1 professions. You could tell by the way they acted, the way they were

2 dressed, that the majority of them were basically civilians, just minimum

3 training, enough to see them past the piece of equipment that they were

4 supposed to man, but nothing more.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

6 Let's now talk about some specific incidents. First of all, was

7 the Lion Cemetery in your area of observation?

8 A. When I first arrived, PAPA 3 was in the bottom of an office block

9 and directly overlooked the Lion Cemetery as it had a clear view to the

10 north and to the stadium up here. Even when this position was withdrawn,

11 it was then part of our patrol route. We would stop at PAPA 3, check the

12 armoured vehicles next to the office block, get passed the Lion Cemetery

13 and on to PAPA 4 at the old olympic stadium. So this cemetery and this

14 position were checked twice a day by the patrol.

15 Q. Perhaps you may have answered that already, but was there a time

16 when PAPA 3 had moved?

17 A. Yes. It had been a static position. It was decided that the

18 men -- the UNMOs there could be better used in observation posts and

19 patrols. So we withdrew completely from PAPA 3, and we moved all of our

20 stores and all of our defences, which were mainly sandbags.

21 Q. The Lion Cemetery, while you were there, did it increase in size?

22 A. When I first arrived, the graves were being dug by a mechanical

23 digger, and extra graves were dug between graves which were obviously

24 prewar. By the time I left, the cemetery had overflowed. Directly

25 opposite was an all-weather football pitch, and graves were dug into that

Page 4324

1 football pitch and on to the grass next to it. And they were usually dug

2 five to ten at a time while the people were there. By the time I left,

3 that football pitch was half covered with graves. So yes, the cemetery

4 did overflow after all of the area had been used and was infill between

5 graves.

6 Q. At this Lion Cemetery, did funerals take place?

7 A. Yes, they did. They took place all the time. Sometimes three or

8 four at a time. And then there were formal occasions, each one of them,

9 as time would allow, because there was so many.

10 Q. Were these funerals ever subject of attacks?

11 A. Funerals were a fairly common thing to be attacked, and so it

12 wasn't unusual. You didn't stay around -- near the cemetery to watch a

13 funeral because you risked -- there was an increased risk of an attack.

14 So funerals could be observed from PAPA 4, which was to the north and at

15 the olympic stadium.

16 Q. And when you say they were attacked, who attacked those funerals?

17 Where did the shots originate from?

18 A. Attacks on the funeral had come from the north and slightly

19 northeast. I'm indicating on the map north, PAPA 4, around to the east.

20 And they come from the Bosnian Serb forces. That is the location of the

21 front line in this area. An example, north of PAPA 4 was the front line.

22 You went inside the stadium in the centre, then there was a risk of sniper

23 fire, to give an example of how close the front line was.

24 Q. And the sniper fire would originate from which part of the --

25 which side of the confrontation line?

Page 4325

1 A. From the Bosnian Serb side. So this area here, north of 4, around

2 to here, PAPA 3. And the attacks on the cemetery were from that location.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, could you please, for the sake of the

5 record, indicate where the witness is pointing at, which might not be

6 quite clear if we do not describe it. Or ask the witness to mark the

7 locations he indicated.

8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, exactly. That's what I was going to do.

9 Q. Perhaps you can tell us again where the sniping fire originated

10 from.

11 A. [Marks].

12 MR. WAESPI: The witness just drew four interrupted lines north of

13 observation post 4.

14 Q. And perhaps you can add an S, letter S, to the right end of that

15 line.

16 A. Marks -- the dotted line marked with an S is the approximate

17 location of the front line at that time. So the Lion Cemetery can be

18 observed from the front line, front line just north of the stadium. And

19 so the stadium was subject to sniper fire from some of the buildings here.

20 Q. And "the buildings here," can you perhaps draw a little circle and

21 a P indicating that these are the buildings you were referring to.

22 A. The front line was fairly fluid here because there are buildings.

23 It's difficult to draw exactly where it was as it did move. But it was

24 from the buildings to the north could put fire on to the stadium, and also

25 the drive leading into the stadium from its east side, all over around

Page 4326

1 this Number 4.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

3 MR. WAESPI: Just for the sake of the record, the Lion Cemetery,

4 can you make a cross and add L to it.

5 A. PAPA 3 and the small cross are side by side, because PAPA 3 was at

6 the cemetery.

7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding.

8 Now, can you describe to the Trial Chamber one of such attacks,

9 and first of all, my first question would be, did you witness the attack

10 yourself?

11 A. There was an attack on the 23rd of October, 1992. The attack was

12 observed by Major Nikolai Roumiantsev. Excuse my pronunciation.

13 Roumiantsev. He was from the Russian army. He was doing a patrol and had

14 stopped at PAPA 4. He was due to return driving down the road from the

15 stadium here at PAPA 4, you can see the stadium mark there. Straight down

16 the road, but he could not return because a funeral in the Lion Cemetery

17 was under attack by mortars. He stayed and watched the duration and

18 reported -- would have reported it over the radio to the PAPA

19 headquarters.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

21 And you just indicated that this Russian major, he travelled

22 between PAPA 4 towards on that street you said, towards PAPA 3, and then

23 he had to stop.

24 A. Yes. He was due to drive past PAPA 3, which is passed the Lion

25 Cemetery, but to do so was too dangerous. He had to wait and watch until

Page 4327

1 the mortar fire stopped, and then he could drive back to the

2 headquarters. Then on the 24th, I was informed there had been damage to

3 the old PAPA 3 building, and I went to see the state of the damage in case

4 we needed to reoccupy it.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

6 Did the Russian major report any casualties to you?

7 A. It transpired that as a result of that attack, some of the people

8 at the funeral tried to take cover in the old PAPA 3. It used to have

9 sandbagged walls which you could then get behind for safety.

10 Unfortunately, when we moved, we took everything with us. Some civilians

11 tried to take cover where they thought there was sandbags, but a mortar

12 round struck the door that they were trying to go through. A 21-year-old

13 woman was killed and some men were injured.

14 When I went to look at the old building at PAPA 3, the remains of

15 the woman were still on the floor as they were the pieces that could not

16 easily be picked up by the medicine medics to clear it out. There was

17 sufficient remains left to attract wild birds who were eating the remains

18 when I arrived. These remains were in the rubble next to the door

19 and blood could be seen by the door where she had been killed.

20 Q. When did you go to attend the cemetery?

21 A. I went to that location the next day, as soon as I could go

22 there.

23 Q. And did you recall the exact time the incident took place the day

24 before as reported by your subordinate, Major Roumiantsev?

25 A. I'm not sure of the exact time. But it was in broad daylight. I

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Page 4329

1 couldn't say whether it was morning or afternoon.

2 Q. You told us that it was mortar fire who had caused that incident.

3 Can you be more specific, for instance, about the calibre?

4 A. It seemed that it was mortar fire because at that time there were

5 a lot of trees in the Lion Cemetery. And -- and it was also on a hill.

6 The trajectory of the weapon must have been fairly steep to clear the

7 trees and to hit the door -- it was on ground floor. And so the way that

8 it had come in, must have been a mortar, an 81 or 82-millimetre mortar. I

9 didn't find the tail of the mortar round which can be found sometimes.

10 Q. From your own observations and from what you were told by your

11 subordinates, did you form any conclusion as to where this shelling

12 originated from?

13 A. To attack the funeral, someone must have been watching to see that

14 people were in the cemetery, and someone must have been controlling the

15 fire to bring it to bear on the cemetery. The observation posts must have

16 been to the north of PAPA 3, to the area of the front line indicated by

17 the dots on the map. This area here --

18 Q. I'm sorry. It is difficult to tell exactly where you're pointing

19 at.

20 A. The forward observation officer must have been to the north of the

21 Lion Cemetery on the higher ground indicated by the dotted line on the

22 map, and he would then be able to see the cemetery and control the fire.

23 Therefore, it must have come from the north because that was the only way

24 that the cemetery could be observed. Therefore, the observer must have

25 been from the Bosnian Serb army because they held the high ground.

Page 4330

1 Q. The next day when you went to that location, did you take

2 pictures?

3 A. Yes, I did. I took pictures of where the round struck the door.

4 MR. WAESPI: Now, if the usher could please distribute Prosecution

5 Exhibit P3662. That's a -- perhaps as an indication to you, Your Honour,

6 these pictures were brought by the witness when he came to The Hague a

7 couple of days ago. So obviously these pictures are not on the exhibit

8 list, and I would respectfully ask leave that these pictures be shown.

9 JUDGE ORIE: When have they been communicated to the Defence,

10 Mr. Waespi?

11 MR. WAESPI: They were given to the Defence Friday night, the day

12 after we had received them and had made copies.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any observations from the Defence?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. On the one hand, we are

15 drawing near the break, and on the other, in regards of the photographs,

16 in view of the fact that neither my colleague nor I were able to study

17 these documents, because they were handed over on Friday evening and we

18 were not here over the weekend, so we have not been able to look the

19 documents over. So we cannot accept them at present.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if I could assist, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Waespi.

23 MR. WAESPI: We could wait to show these pictures until the

24 Defence have had a chance perhaps during the break to have a closer look

25 at these pictures.

Page 4331

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just have a glance through the photos, and

3 the Defence has got them by now so that I at least can have a global idea

4 of what the Court is to decide upon.

5 Mr. Waespi, perhaps it would be wiser to at least give the Defence

6 during the break an opportunity to have a better look at these

7 photographs, and we'll then ask them to explain whether they need further

8 time and for what reasons, because I would not say that every photograph

9 needs a study of days in order to be prepared to cross-examine; on the

10 other hand, we would like to give an opportunity to the Defence, first, to

11 look at the photographs and perhaps give their views. If you could

12 perhaps continue at this moment to another subject so that we'll -- I

13 expect to have the break at 11.00 since we started at 9.30. Please

14 proceed.

15 MR. WAESPI: I will do so, Your Honours. Just one point of

16 clarification: These six photographs don't go beyond the witness

17 statement. It just clarifies what the witness said in words in the way of

18 pictures, but that doesn't mean that I am not waiting, in fact, until the

19 Defence has had a chance to look at these pictures.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, that's what was in the back of my mind.

21 If these photographs would need a thorough study and if it would be

22 anything else than just an illustration to what the witness testifies,

23 then of course we might consider the matter in a different way. Please

24 proceed.

25 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 4332

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You will remember, Your

2 Honour, that a few weeks ago I asked that our work during the week be

3 organised differently. You will remember that I asked that we work four

4 days a week. This was not possible. And as a consequence, during the

5 breaks we have, we are always busy. We try to make use of these breaks to

6 do some work. We cannot take a real break because we always have

7 something we have to do during the break, and this means that we can no

8 longer do the usual work that we would do during the break. I don't know

9 why these documents are handed over to us so late. It may be being done

10 on purpose. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as I do understand, the

12 photographs were not available to the Prosecution until -- could you

13 please be more precise, Mr. Waespi?

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Friday morning, afternoon?

16 MR. WAESPI: No, I met the witness for the first time in his hotel

17 Thursday night.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then it was clear to you the photographs would be

19 there? --

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then they should have been told to the Defence

22 at least on Friday -- not on Friday. The last day last week was Thursday

23 that we were sitting. I'm sorry for the mistake.

24 MR. WAESPI: I said I saw these pictures Thursday night in the

25 hotel and the next day we made copies and gave it to the Defence.

Page 4333

1 JUDGE ORIE: It was my mistake.

2 Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will only say that

4 today's witness made his statement on the 31st of May, 2000, and offered

5 these photographs to the Prosecution so they were available in May 2001.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We have not seen the statement. Mr. Waespi, is this

7 true, that the photographs were offered approximately ten months ago?

8 MR. WAESPI: It's correct what the defence has said.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't it have been proper to inform the Court by

10 yourself that they were offered to you already ten months ago?

11 MR. WAESPI: Unfortunately, the investigator who had taken the

12 statement didn't take them with him. And this witness, as you know, was

13 originally planned to be a witness under Rule 92 bis. So when he was

14 called, we realised that he should, being a viva voce witness, take

15 everything with him which was attached to the statement. That's the

16 reason for that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. For the time being, I would say --

18 Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence must also

20 tell you that at that time, the witness presented these photographs for

21 inspection and said he was willing to hand them over if they were required

22 so that when his statement was made, these photographs were described and

23 they were offered to the investigator.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does understand by now that whether the

Page 4334

1 photographs were in the hands of the Prosecutor or not, they at least were

2 available on the request to the Prosecution a long time ago. I invite the

3 Defence to look at the photographs during the break, and as it was

4 indicated by the Prosecution, that they would just be an illustration of

5 what the testimony is, to consider whether not objecting to them would be

6 better in order to find the truth, a better understanding, since confusion

7 hardly ever assists in preparing decisions.

8 But once you've given your point of view after the break,

9 Ms. Pilipovic, the Court will then decide on whether they are admitted in

10 evidence or not.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

12 MR. WAESPI: If I may, Your Honours, just one last point of

13 clarification.


15 MR. WAESPI: In the witness statement which has been correctly

16 described by my colleague from the Defence, these six pictures are

17 identified and described what they portray and, of course, as we said

18 before, they were handed over later.

19 But let me, of course, continue with the next subject before the

20 break. I would like to add, though, at this juncture that together with

21 these photographs, also three reports were given to us by the witness also

22 on Thursday. And as we go along in the examination-in-chief, I will also

23 refer to these three documents, three reports. And they have the same, I

24 guess, fate, to a certain extent as the photographs, although when the

25 investigator had visited the witness in May of last year, he could not

Page 4335












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4336

1 find those reports. But I suggest that when we go to the respective

2 subject, then we can deal with that in more detail.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, did I understand

5 properly what my learned friend has said? Am I right in concluding that

6 the Prosecution wants to tender three reports which they have also known

7 about for more than a year, but which have never been disclosed to us?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please respond, Mr. Waespi.

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honours. As I said before, and as we had

10 communicated to the Defence in writing on Friday, we do intend to tender

11 these three reports, and I had just mentioned a couple of minutes ago that

12 these reports were mentioned in the witness statement, as were the

13 photographs, but we could not retrieve them because the witness, who

14 signed, who drafted these reports, could not find them and we were also

15 not able to find them in our offices.

16 So yes, they were not disclosed because we didn't have them. Once

17 we had them, that was Thursday night, we had disclosed them. As you will

18 see, Your Honours, these reports are quite short, four and five pages.

19 The battle assessment damages from two hospitals, and there is a two-page

20 report. Again, everything is mentioned quite in detail by the witness in

21 his witness statement.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course you may respond. I do not

24 intend to spend the next 12 minutes -- we still have until the break to

25 repeat what is quite clear to everyone by now, that is, that these reports

Page 4337

1 could not be found at that very moment. I don't know how much effort has

2 been made since then to retrieve them. But at least they have not been

3 communicated to the Defence until Thursday evening or Friday morning.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is another point I wish

5 to raise, Your Honour. It was said that these are short reports. I would

6 like to know whether they were translated into B/C/S in view of the fact

7 that they are short so that the accused can also study them during the

8 break.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

10 MR. WAESPI: No, unfortunately, Your Honours, we did not have

11 time, I have to say obviously, to translate these official UN reports into

12 B/C/S.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give a decision after the break.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Mr. Harding, as part of your duties, did you carry out battle

18 damage assessment on hospitals?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. What triggered this reporting?

21 A. On the 7th of December, 1992, I was ordered by the senior

22 management officer to send the patrol to both hospitals to see the

23 conditions and to find out what had happened on an attack on the Kosevo

24 hospital. I sent my second in command, who at that time was Captain

25 MacDonald from the Canadian army. He went to Kosevo hospital and was

Page 4338

1 informed the attack the previous day had killed one nurse, injured another

2 nurse, and four males. He wrote a report I gave to the SMO, and later, on

3 the 30th and 31st of December, I conducted a battle damage assessment of

4 the Kosevo hospital and the citizens hospital.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

6 You said you made these reports to the SMO. Can you tell us who

7 the SMO is?

8 A. SMO at that time was Lieutenant Colonel Cutler from New Zealand.

9 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, Your Honours, I would now ask leave that

10 these two reports can be shown to the witness so he can identify his

11 signature and also tell the findings he made.

12 I can also add in terms of translations that I recall the pretrial

13 judge, Judge Rodrigues that passages of these reports can be read out and

14 the interpreters in the booth can translate it into a language the accused

15 understands.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's better that we have a break a bit

17 earlier than usual so that we can consider the matter that is in front of

18 us.

19 We will adjourn until 11.25.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.51 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It took us as you may have noticed a few minutes more

23 than we expected to come to decisions as far as the admission into

24 evidence is concerned of photographs and some reports, military reports.

25 The problem this Chamber is faced with is the following: On the

Page 4339

1 one hand, the more material we have, not just in testimony but also in

2 visualizing what is part of the testimony, the better we might be able to

3 understand exactly what has happened. So in our search for the truth,

4 there might certainly be helpful these photographs and these documents.

5 On the other hand, if photographs and documents are presented as evidence,

6 the fairness of the trial would require that the Defence gets enough time

7 to prepare for the cross-examination of the witness who has testified

8 about these photographs and about these documents. Especially as far as

9 the photographs are concerned, it is the understanding of this Chamber

10 that they were available already quite some time ago, and no proper action

11 is taken to get them into the hands of the Prosecution itself. As far as

12 the documents are concerned, we do understand that they could not be found

13 at that very moment, and I can leave aside that at this moment whether

14 more action could have been taken to retrieve them in an earlier stage.

15 What does it mean as far as our decision is concerned? Let me

16 start with the photographs. The photographs, as we understand, are merely

17 an illustration of what the testimony of the witness will be about.

18 Therefore, it would assist the Chamber to better understand to have a look

19 at them. At the same time, Defence counsel might look at photographs in a

20 totally different way as the Prosecution does. If we would decide not to

21 admit these photographs in evidence, the Chamber misses an illustration

22 but at the same time the Defence would presumably miss an opportunity to

23 challenge what is on those photographs and by these means, also to

24 challenge the testimony of the witness. So before taking a final decision

25 on the photographs, I'd like to invite the Defence to give their point of

Page 4340

1 view, and especially in view of the illustrative character of the

2 photographs, and a possibly lost opportunity to challenge the content of

3 the photograph and also the -- perhaps the testimony of the witness.

4 I'll tell you in advance that if you continue to object, that this

5 Chamber will decide that they will not be admitted into evidence. So just

6 say that your objection stands, and it will not be admitted into

7 evidence. Nevertheless, I'd like to have your view on it. And let me add

8 just one thing: If you would lift your objection, you will have an

9 opportunity at a later stage if necessary to cross-examine the witness on

10 the photographs itself. That would mean even if this could be done only

11 not immediately, subsequent to the examination-in-chief, the Chamber will

12 allow you even if it's necessary to recall the witness in order to be

13 cross-examined on these photographs if they are admitted into evidence.

14 But again, if your objection stands, we will not admit them in

15 evidence. So it's up to you.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before I state

17 the Defence's position, have I understood you properly if I say we are

18 merely talking about photographs; we are not talking about the reports?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, indeed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then about the photographs,

21 because we examined other photographs the other day which enabled us to

22 establish a different ballistic trajectory than the other one, we will

23 accept these photographs, likewise, although we had no time to prepare for

24 them. But we accept them now, which doesn't mean that we shall also

25 accept the report.

Page 4341

1 JUDGE ORIE: Since the objection has been lifted, the photos if

2 tendered into evidence will be admitted. And if necessary, you'll have an

3 opportunity to cross-examine the witness after you have been able to

4 properly prepare for the cross-examination.

5 Let me come to the documents: The documents might not be merely

6 illustrative although we do not know for sure. At least the Defence

7 should have an opportunity to look at the context of the documents and

8 this Chamber is also of the view that on these particular

9 documents, the accused himself should have an opportunity to study them

10 thoroughly. That means that the documents will not be admitted in

11 evidence if tendered at this moment since there's no translation, since

12 the Defence has had no opportunity to study them, especially the accused

13 has had no opportunity to study them. This does not mean that they might

14 never be admitted into evidence, and they are -- the same is valid as in

15 respect of the photographs. The existence of these documents has been

16 discussed here. The witness will testify, as far as I must assume at this

17 moment, on incidents on which -- to which these documents do relate.

18 Since the documents have not been disclosed, the Defence is not in a

19 position to properly prepare for the cross-examination. Therefore,

20 whether you tender the documents in evidence or not, the Defence will have

21 anyhow the right at a later stage to have the witness recalled in order to

22 finish the cross-examination and then in full knowledge of what the

23 documents the witness was referring to, or even if he has not referred to,

24 but the incidents the witness referred to, that at least the Defence has

25 full information about what is available on these incidents to the

Page 4342












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4343

1 Prosecution.

2 We would allow -- just for the sake of finding the truth, we would

3 allow if the witness would not have all details still in his mind, we

4 would allow him to read one or two lines as requested during questioning.

5 I must be quite clear to the Defence that while the documents cannot be

6 admitted into no evidence at this very moment but even if they will not be

7 put in evidence at a later stage on request of the Defence, you'll always

8 have an opportunity to finalise the cross-examination, having full

9 knowledge of what the documents are about.

10 Is that clear to both parties, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is more or less half clear,

12 Mr. President. I do not know whether this witness will be available for a

13 long time here, and I do not know if one day will suffice because I have

14 just explained it to the Registrar, even though this problem is not there,

15 that we simply have no assistance. That is, as of this evening, I won't

16 be able to work alone, and we shall again have the chronological --

17 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is such that even if it would be

18 necessary to ask the witness to come back to the Hague at a later stage.

19 Of course, if it's not necessary, let's try to prevent it. But if

20 necessary, it has to be done. Yes? Does this clarify the part you did

21 not fully understand yet?

22 It's clear to the Prosecution as well?

23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I merely wanted to say

25 that I'm taking note that at a later stage we can even imagine that a few

Page 4344

1 days later it will happen. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Or a few weeks, yes, of course. That's a practical

3 matter.

4 One moment, please.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I think, yes, the witness could be

8 recalled at a later stage if his schedule will permit that. And as you

9 know, he sort of jumped out of order appearing right now, so I'm sure that

10 could be accommodated.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just first make one remark to

12 Mr. Harding. Mr. Harding, when you might have got a feeling that we are

13 masters of your time; we are not. When I'm talking about a possible

14 recall of you as a witness, of course a suitable time both for the court,

15 for the parties, has to be found. But I just want to avoid you thinking

16 that we are masters of your life.

17 Yes, Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: And the second point is, are we allowed to put these

19 documents, these two documents, the two assessments, which were drafted by

20 the witness, just purely mark them for identification as they are, and put

21 it to the witness so he can at least identify that these were the

22 documents he had drafted?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we -- if you would ask him, let's say, to

24 read of it a few lines or whatever, if you would allow him to use it in

25 order to refresh his memory, I think it's good that they have been at

Page 4345

1 least marked for identification.

2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honour. And because he brought them with

3 him, he certainly has read them over the time he was here in The Hague,

4 and he has accordingly refreshed his memory.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we presumed it would have done so.

6 If that's clear to everyone, please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: The second point about the photographs I understand

8 that you have admitted them into evidence or he can --

9 JUDGE ORIE: You tendered them, but there is no objection any more

10 so you can expect us to admit them into evidence. You also know if

11 necessary usually the decision on admission of evidence is taken after the

12 cross-examining the witness perhaps in this specific -- under these

13 specific circumstances, we should do it as is normally done, as soon as

14 you tender them into evidence that we decide on the admission in evidence,

15 and then of course the Defence might request the Court to recall the

16 witness if they cannot finalise the cross-examination, conclude their

17 cross-examination today or tomorrow, especially in respect of these

18 photographs.

19 Please proceed, then, Mr. Waespi.

20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours. What I am tendering

21 now is indeed to tender all the exhibits as far as they can be at the end

22 of eventual cross-examination, and I will discuss these photographs as

23 soon as we have finished the subject we just started before the break,

24 those were the hospital assessments.


Page 4346


2 Q. So, please, Mr. Harding, let's go back to these hospital damage

3 assessments which we talked about at length now in a procedural way.

4 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could be shown now these two potential

5 exhibits, I have to say.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we still call them documents.

7 MR. WAESPI: Documents. Thank you, Your Honours. Exhibit 3660

8 and 3661.

9 JUDGE ORIE: There are extra copies. Have the booths been

10 provided with copies, especially if you would read one or more lines?

11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that was certainly intended to do so, that the

12 witness receives also a copy.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but have the translations -- I see some nodding

14 yes, no. Perhaps.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President. I'm sorry. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone has a copy.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The French booth, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. First let's turn to the first report, the exhibit or the document,

21 rather, Number 3661, that's the document titled "Battle damage assessment,

22 citizens hospital, operations effects," and the date is 2nd of January,

23 1993.

24 Now, Mr. Harding, do you know another name for the citizens

25 hospital?

Page 4347

1 A. Yes, it also referred to as the "French hospital."

2 Q. Thank you. Now, perhaps as suggested by Judge Orie, the presiding

3 judge, you could perhaps read the introductory portion of this document

4 so we can get a feel to this point, and perhaps we can even narrow it down

5 to the second part of the introductory comment where you start with "I

6 ensured...

7 A. All of this paragraph?

8 Q. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, it is our understanding that you would

10 examine the witness on the general parts of it without using the document,

11 and use the document only if it comes to some specific details. I don't

12 know whether you'd regard, especially the second part of the introduction

13 in such a detail. If yes, please proceed. If no, please examine the

14 witness in the ordinary way. It will not be tendered into evidence as you

15 know; it will just be marked for identification.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes. One minute, please, Your Honour.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]


19 Q. First of all, Mr. Harding, these two reports, did you draft those

20 two reports?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And these two reports, I mentioned the first one, the battle

23 damage assessment, citizens hospital, operational effects of 2nd of

24 January, 1993, that's a document marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3661. And

25 the second report is a document now called Prosecution Exhibit Number

Page 4348

1 3660, and it's entitled "Battle damage assessment of Kosevo hospital,

2 operational effects."

3 Now, without referring to these documents, can you tell what the

4 role was you saw in yourself when you visited these two hospitals?

5 A. I was in Sarajevo as a military observer, and I decided that I

6 would conduct these battle damage assessments with a view to identifying

7 military actions that had been taken against the two buildings and the

8 effect that that military action had on the operational capabilities of

9 the hospitals. I was not there as part of a UNHCR or as an NGO

10 operation. It was purely from a military point of view as I was a

11 military observer.

12 Q. In conducting these two reports, you said before the break that

13 you went to see the two hospitals. For how long did you stay there, did

14 you talk to people, did you visit locations?

15 A. When I went to both hospitals, I was met by the directors of both

16 hospitals and the senior members of his staff. I was then given a tour of

17 the whole hospital complex. It would have taken half a day to cover the

18 whole area, Kosevo being spread out more than the citizens hospital.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

20 Now, in your recollection, was -- and now turning to the citizens

21 hospital or also French hospital as you had called it -- was the hospital

22 ever marked?

23 A. Yes, that hospital had been marked. It had a large white flag

24 with a large red cross, and the flag was hanging from the

25 hospital from the top floor at the centre on the south-facing part of the

Page 4349












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4350

1 building.

2 MR. WAESPI: One moment, please, Your Honours.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]


5 Q. Let me just finish with one question. You may in fact have

6 answered that already. After you have done the reports, you have filed it

7 or you have given it to your superiors or to whom?

8 A. As soon as I had finished the reports, which is one or two days

9 after the inspection, I gave them to the SMO, Lieutenant-Colonel Cutler.

10 And then he gave them direct to General Morrillon's staff, and I

11 understand that action was taken as a result of the reports.

12 Q. And do you know what kind of action General Morrillon took after

13 this report was received?

14 A. He arranged and ordered for a large generator to be placed on the

15 grounds of Kosevo hospital in order to provide electricity to the heating

16 system and also for critical elements within the hospital. It was a very

17 large generator, and it was white with "UN" written on it.

18 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, if I may, I would now move on to a

19 different subject.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 MR. WAESPI: I would like Mr. Harding to talk about the use of

22 tanks.

23 Q. You have already mentioned the tanks you saw on the ABiH side, and

24 we can come back to that later. Talking about tanks from the Bosnian Serb

25 side, let me take you to the 24th of September, 1992. Do you recall where

Page 4351

1 were you at that date?

2 A. Yes, I was in -- I was at the PAPA 5 observation post which was in

3 the new position number one where it was when I first arrived. The PAPA 5

4 I referred to was on the hill directly north of the PTT building.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

6 Can you describe to us what you saw when you were at PAPA 5.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 37, line

9 6, there is a problem with the interpretation. It seems to me that

10 something has not been interpreted quite correctly. Urgent, an

11 extraordinary situation, that's the word that was used, an emergency, and

12 I would like to draw your attention to this.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do not exactly understand what you -- you say

14 there's a problem on page 37, line 6. What is missing in the -- is it the

15 French translation?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am speaking of the French

17 transcript. I am telling you what I heard, and this is not what is in the

18 French transcript. So I wish to mention it to avoid any misunderstandings

19 later on.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it vital for our understanding at this

21 moment or can we leave it to those who work on the transcript this

22 evening?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm drawing

24 attention to it now because I feel it is important. If we are speaking of

25 an emergency situation, we can draw the conclusion that this was caused by

Page 4352

1 shelling and it's important to say so. The English transcript does not

2 mention an emergency situation anyway in the context of the testimony

3 about generators that can be used in extraordinary situations, in

4 emergency situations. The Defence raises such issues only when it

5 considers them to be important. If you feel it is not important, we

6 apologise.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know exactly what the French transcript reads

8 so that I can compare it with the English or?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not actually

10 have the French transcript in front of me, but I know what I heard from

11 the French booth.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Special attention will be paid to page 37, line 6,

13 and we will be able to compare it, if there's any reason to come back to

14 it once they have been corrected, as you know that happens overnight,

15 please draw my attention to it and assist me again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Q. Mr. Harding, can you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw on

19 24th of September, 1992 while you were at PAPA 5?

20 A. I was at PAPA 5, which is on the hill north of PT, looking south

21 down the road which was known as the airport road, which led directly to

22 the airport. This road --

23 Q. Can you perhaps move the map a little bit so Your Honours can see

24 where the airport is.

25 A. Zoom out some more. I was here at PAPA 5 looking south, and I

Page 4353

1 could see directly down this road which leads to the airport.

2 Q. Can you, perhaps, use your marker and draw the line where the road

3 is located to which you are referring.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. The Witness just drew a line, I understand left -- a couple of

6 centimetres left of the road to which you are referring to. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Please indicate it by an R, saying it is the road you just talked

10 about.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. I was in PAPA 5. I could see straight down the road marked as an

14 R. I watched five T-55 tanks come down the road and head north. They

15 were in a line astern, one behind the other. The barrels of the tanks

16 were pointing towards the east and to the west. They had no infantry

17 support. They drove down the road firing at the buildings left and right,

18 some as close as 50 metres. After a while, they turned around and went

19 back down the road, that being down heading south continuing down the road

20 which goes towards Lukavica.

21 Q. Were you -- I'm sorry.

22 A. As they were firing, the empty cases from the armament were

23 discharged from the tank, in other words, thrown out on to the road and on

24 to the sides of the roads. When the tanks had gone, you drive down the

25 road which is also the main road to get to the airport, there was in

Page 4354

1 excess of 100 empty shell cases, the shell cases being at least half a

2 metre long. That meant that each tank would have fired around about 20

3 rounds. And those empty cases were there for some weeks after, and they

4 would being run over and just pushed off the road.

5 Q. Mr. Harding, could you see any military targets besides the road

6 or were these military targets to which the tanks fired at, in your

7 opinion?

8 A. From my position, at PAPA 5, I could see no obvious targets for

9 the tanks. There was no infantry support for those tanks, if an operation

10 was underway. I've driven down that road many times. It was very much a

11 No-Man's Land in that the buildings had received substantial damage, and

12 there was little gain in trying to move around them because they gave

13 little cover. So to answer your question, no, I could see no reason for

14 those tanks to do what they did.

15 Q. Did the tanks fire again when they turned back and went the other

16 way around?

17 A. As they were moving backwards and forwards on the road, they were

18 just firing, so when they decided to withdraw, they just withdrew up the

19 road and ceased firing at that stage.

20 Q. How long did this firing last? I think you used the term "for

21 quite some time."

22 A. I would need to -- the exact time would be in my diary. But it

23 wasn't a quick drive up the road and fire. They slowly came up the road,

24 started to fire, occasionally moving, and then they just withdrew. I

25 could see no reason for them to be -- to do that. Because when they had

Page 4355

1 gone, there was no change in any situation in that area.

2 Q. You told us that the closest building was 50 metres away from the

3 tanks. Do you recall how far the furthest building was away from the

4 tanks which was hit by the tanks?

5 A. From what I could see from that position, all the targets were

6 fairly close because it's very flat where the tanks were. And on the map

7 you can see there are buildings either side of the road. Although they

8 were damaged, it meant that the line of sight from the tank could not be

9 far because the buildings were in the way. And the tank only fires at a

10 direct weapon; in other words, it has to see the target in order to hit it

11 as opposed to artillery that does not need to see the target because it

12 can fire overhead. But the tanks was a straight line, so from 50 metres,

13 maybe out to 300, 400. But not very far because of the buildings all

14 around there.

15 Q. You described five tanks doing this action. Was that a

16 controlled, commanded, coordinated action, in your opinion?

17 A. Well, to have five tanks moving must have taken some orders. A

18 troop of tanks, I did not feel it was one or two individuals' own actions

19 because each vehicle will have a crew, and also there was a danger that

20 one of those -- one or more of those tanks could get damaged, as along

21 that road there was already one T-55 that had been taken out and that was

22 damaged and was seen regularly on television as it was at an angle of 30

23 to 40 degrees off the side of the road. So I think if those tanks were to

24 go down there, on the word of just one person, a loss of a tank would have

25 been quite significant as they are a key asset.

Page 4356












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Page 4357

1 Q. Let me move to a different subject, a different weapon system.

2 Mr. Harding, have you seen the use of multilaunch rocket system in

3 Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. Can you, in fact, tell the difference between this system and

6 artillery or mortar? I mean, can you tell the difference? What would you

7 put into this position to say that? Do you have experience in that?

8 A. Yes, I have experience of all three of those weapon systems. The

9 main one that you mentioned, artillery, it became common to hear artillery

10 flying overhead. And you had a constant but very faint noise as the round

11 went over. It was only when that noise changed that you knew it was in

12 descent and may come close to you. But when it was in transit, it was a

13 very faint noise. I could compare that to a multilaunch rocket system

14 because -- it's not going to do. There was an occasion where I took my

15 second in command to see the old PAPA 1 location here. At that time, we

16 continued passed it, around to where my marker is, directly west of the

17 old PAPA 1.

18 On this position, on that day, we had been observing

19 shelling, and the shells were landing to the west of PAPA 1. It was

20 particularly memorable because as we stood here, there was one artillery

21 round that we would refer to as a "drop short" in that it came into its

22 descent before its intended target. And it landed very close to myself

23 and the 2IC, my second in command. On that day, as we were walking back,

24 there was a multilaunch rocket system that was fired over our heads, and

25 you could hear several projectiles, the flight of them was slightly

Page 4358

1 staggered. They had a high-pitch whine as they went overhead. They then

2 came overhead, and we looked to the east, towards our headquarters here as

3 marked previously in the map as HQ. We then saw the multiple impacts of

4 the multilaunch rocket system land east of our headquarters, and we

5 estimated at 3 to 400

6 metres.

7 From where we were to where they landed, we could draw a straight

8 line as indicated by the mark, my marker, like that. So we were at the

9 old PAPA 1. They landed east of our headquarters. Therefore, they were

10 fired from the northwest, which goes over to Stup.

11 Q. Do you recall the date this incident happened? Perhaps the month

12 would be sufficient.

13 A. That occurred on the 8th of December, 1992.

14 Q. And you said they landed a couple of metres beside the

15 headquarters of the PAPA. Can you mark it on your map, please.

16 A. Yes. From the distance that we were observing, I would say it is

17 3 to 400 metres east of the headquarters. How would you like that

18 marked?

19 Q. Perhaps, again --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have by now a range that if something is

21 marked, if two points are there and it says that it's 3 or 400 metres

22 east, that we are able to measure that on a map. I mean, it's -- unless

23 it's not really east, then of course it might be different. Perhaps would

24 you first ask the witness that. If it's really east, then we can just

25 count 3, 400 metres east from the headquarters.

Page 4359

1 THE WITNESS: It is east of the PAPA headquarters, because from

2 our position we could see it was the other side of PAPA headquarters and

3 only estimate 3, 400 metres because from our range, it was quite difficult

4 to observe.


6 Q. Were you able to discern any military target they were firing at

7 on this occasion?

8 A. At that occasion and at that time, areas east of our headquarters

9 were just civilians, although there were military personnel around with no

10 known military concentration and there was no known military operation

11 going on at that time.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Harding, in the Sarajevo military theatre, who used this

13 rocket artillery, multilaunch rocket system?

14 A. It came from the Bosnian Serb army.

15 Q. Can you tell the Judges how this system works and what sort of

16 target it would be used against.

17 A. Multilaunch rocket system fires numerous munitions that are

18 slightly staggered -- at a slightly staggered interval and are used for an

19 area target. In other words, they are not for pinpoint one trench; they

20 are for an area that can be a hundred metres square or something like

21 that. And there are numerous rocket-propelled pieces of artillery, and

22 the number of them can vary according to the individual weapon system, as

23 they do range from small ones which can be towed by a vehicle such as a

24 Land Rover, the larger ones are mounted on the backs of trucks. They are

25 an area weapon, not a point weapon.

Page 4360

1 Q. When you say, Mr. Harding, an "area weapon," is that a suitable

2 weapon in an area -- to fire into an area where the possibility of the

3 presence of civilians is?

4 A. No, not in an urban area such as that, and you cannot guarantee

5 that they will land exactly where you want them to land. So no.

6 Q. How was it used by the Bosnian Serb army? Was it used according

7 to the way you think it should be used or was it used in a different way?

8 For instance, the sequence of shots.

9 A. Well, it would normally be used for an area target which is known

10 enemy or troop concentrations, not endanger your own forces. But in this

11 case, I would say there was no known military forces, although the weapon

12 was fired correctly as in operationally, it fired all of its munitions at

13 a staggered interval, but into an area where it was predominantly

14 civilians. And it was not in support of a military action. In other

15 words, if there was an advance, then to clear the ground ahead of the

16 advance, you could see the multilaunch rocket system. But there was no

17 advance. It was no support of any military action. It was merely firing

18 weapons into an urban area occupied by civilians.

19 Q. On that occasion, 8th of December, 1992, how many rockets were

20 fired?

21 A. To the best of my recollection, I could say it would be not less

22 than nine. But we couldn't count them individually, because we had just

23 recently been subjected to shelling ourselves when we had the drop short.

24 But I would say not less than nine, which also aided the identification of

25 a multilaunch rocket system rather than artillery.

Page 4361

1 Q. Are you aware whether single shots were being fired using this

2 weapon system?

3 A. Single shots from that weapon system may well be able to occur,

4 but I haven't heard single shots from a multilaunch rocket system. That

5 would be the job of artillery. You'd fire them all together, as that's

6 the way that the system works.

7 Q. Can you describe to the Judges the sound of this weapon system.

8 A. As I mentioned earlier on, we knew the sound of artillery, both in

9 its transit and its descent. Mortar rounds usually do not give any

10 warning because of their steep descent, whereas these weapons had a

11 high-pitch scream, I suppose, would be the best description of it, or a

12 howl, as they went overhead. They made a very distinctive noise, so they

13 were very easy to identify as not being artillery and being a weapon of

14 special effect rather than the normal artillery that went over. So it was

15 a scream or a howl. And as there was not less than nine, those were

16 easier to identify them as they all went over that maybe one second or one

17 and a half second intervals.

18 Q. From your experience of being there and having seen, observing,

19 yourself, you talked about the civilians, do you know what the effect of

20 this weapon system was on the civilians in Sarajevo?

21 A. I did not follow up the observation of the rocket system, and I

22 did not go and inspect the damage. But from what we observed from the old

23 PAPA 1, the damage to buildings, the roofs, the tiles, and other such like

24 damage.

25 Q. Is this system a significant weapon? Is it more important than

Page 4362

1 others in the arsenal of an army?

2 A. Normally, I would consider this weapon to be significant because

3 it uses a specific type of ammunition. There may be a lot of artillery

4 ammunition or tank ammunition that these weapons are not common and they

5 do use a special ammunition. So I would consider this weapon to be

6 considered as an important fire support weapon because of logistics needed

7 to support it.

8 Q. The rounds themselves, are they expensive?

9 A. Monetarily, I would consider them probably more expensive,

10 although I have not had cause to actually work out how much in money terms

11 that they would cost. So I don't know.

12 Q. Maybe the last question: Could you form, from your experiences,

13 an opinion about the psychological effect this weapon had on the

14 civilians? The weapon, and also the way it was used.

15 A. The psychological effect on the civilians was usually hit by

16 the use of single rounds of artillery and mortar. This weapon was not

17 used that often, but it did not give any warning for those that were the

18 target, whereas single rounds from artillery, a mortar, which was common,

19 had a greater effect on the psychology of the civilian population.

20 Q. Now, let's turn to another system, weapon system, anti-aircraft

21 artillery. Are you familiar with anti-aircraft artillery, and can you

22 describe its use and effect to us.

23 A. Anti-aircraft artillery can range in calibre from 12.7

24 millimetres, often referred to as a "heavy machine-gun" through to 20

25 millimetres and increased to 56 millimetres. The idea of anti-aircraft

Page 4363












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4364

1 artillery would be to put ammunition in the air ahead of an aircraft so

2 that the aircraft flies into it, rather than trying to chase an aircraft.

3 The ammunition would have an explosive head, so if it would hit the

4 aircraft it would cause damage to the aircraft as well as penetrating into

5 the aircraft.

6 Q. Now, you have described these calibres. Did the -- as far as

7 you're aware, did the Bosnian Serb army possess this type of artillery,

8 the weapons and the calibres you had mentioned?

9 A. Yes, they did. And they could often be heard because the larger

10 the calibre, the slower the rate of fire. And throughout my term, they

11 had high rates of fire, from the smaller calibres, 12.7, to a slow rate of

12 fire which is steady dug from the 40 or 56- millimetre.

13 Q. Now I take it from what you have just said that you have

14 experienced anti-aircraft artillery yourself while you were in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, I have experience of a 20 millimetre anti-aircraft artillery

16 when I first arrived in PAPA 5. That was used on the building next door.

17 And I've seen it used on the other buildings, and it could be identified

18 because the rounds, once they exploded and had penetrated a wall, had lost

19 their kinetic energy, you could fire them into the building and you could

20 pick them up. On the rounds, they had the calibre, 20 millimetres, and it

21 also had Cyrillic letters on it, which I didn't know what they were.

22 Q. Mr. Harding, can you perhaps take us to one incident where you saw

23 the use of anti-aircraft artillery yourself?

24 A. There was one occasion where I was at the observation post at PAPA

25 6 as I indicated on the map with a number 6. South of the location were

Page 4365

1 the Bosnian Serb army. At that one occasion, I was standing at PAPA 6

2 when a weapon, anti-aircraft artillery of 12.7 millimetres opened fire

3 over my head and straight down into the city. You could clearly see where

4 the rounds were landing because they have explosive heads, and you could

5 see the white flash. Also, when a weapon like that fires, it has a zone

6 where it lands, which you could call the beaten zone. All the

7 rounds will be spread out. They are not one behind the other.

8 On that occasion, we saw the rounds landing on the roof tops of

9 the city. The weapon then traversed towards the east, firing as it did,

10 as it traversed you could see all around hitting the roofs with white

11 flashes. It then traversed back, so it's firing directly over our heads

12 again, and also the rounds moved backwards and forwards as the weapon was

13 traversed or elevated up and down.

14 Once you'd returned, once you'd swept down the city and back

15 again, then it stopped firing.

16 Q. Can you please mark on the map the areas which was covered by this

17 weapon, and also a line to indicate that traversing, if you may.

18 A. It is difficult to try and assess it with this map. They would

19 have fired towards where I have put the letter "I" for impact, here,

20 traverse to the right, traverse to the left, and then stopped. So it

21 would have been an area -- this is an estimation as it's difficult to

22 show.

23 Q. Just for the record, the witness just moved his pointing stick

24 between the outer two ends, the two 0s of the symbol he just drew below

25 the letter I.

Page 4366

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Harding, did you just use a black

2 or a blue?


4 These rows to represent the beaten zone where the ammunition was

5 landing, landing in here across.


7 Q. Now, where was the source of fire in relation to the positions of

8 the Bosnian Serb army?

9 A. The fire came from directly south of PAPA 6. It's a very steep

10 hill. Somewhere in the area of the arrow that I've drawn. It was very

11 difficult to see because we are on the treeline here, and you can see

12 from the contours on the map, this is very steep. And he was up here.

13 Q. Again, for the record, the witness just drew an arrow pointing

14 upwards on the map, north I guess, about a hand south of number 6.

15 And are these -- is this area controlled by the Bosnian Serb army

16 where the source of fire originated from?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, from your observation point, number 6, did you observe any

19 military target the weapon was engaged to?

20 A. No. There was no military activity at PAPA 6. The ground south

21 of PAPA 6 is so steep, we would have noticed if there's any military

22 activity there. And there was definitely no military activity within the

23 city centre, which is where the rounds and the ammunition landed. It was

24 not prompted; it was not in support of any military action.

25 Q. Now, my last question on this point: You have described the

Page 4367

1 beaten zone of the anti-aircraft artillery. Given that, in Sarajevo, is

2 it suitable for the use in an area like what we have at hand?

3 A. I would say no, because the longer the range, the larger the

4 beaten zone. In other words, the longer the range, the more spread out

5 the ammunition will get. This weapon was working at its maximum range,

6 and so totally unsuitable for a military action. But there was no

7 military action in which to support, so it just fired for no reason at

8 all, which makes it all the more memorable because we were looking for

9 something. But it was just -- nothing there. Started for no reason.

10 Q. The gunner, in your experience, did he have to use a mechanical

11 traverse device to do what you have described?

12 A. The traverse towards the east and then the west appeared to be

13 fairly smooth, and so either the weapon was mounted on some form of

14 platform, because if it wasn't, the recoil of it would mean the rounds

15 would be much further spread than they actually were. And because they

16 were fairly close, we could follow it as it went up the city and back

17 again. It would suggest to me it was on some form of platform with a

18 traversing wheels and traversing mechanism. So yes.

19 Q. Can you explain that to us laymen what such a mechanism would look

20 like.

21 A. The weapon would be mounted in a cradle, and the traverse

22 mechanism would be by turning handles, and that handle would make it

23 traverse left and right. There would be another handle to make the

24 weapon, the barrel go up and go down. In other words, fire into the city

25 at left and right.

Page 4368

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think I

3 must intervene because this witness is describing things which he did not

4 see. One would say he is relying on the hearsay, and he turns almost into

5 an expert. And on the top of it, he's making assumptions. I'm sorry I

6 intervened, but I think that now the line has been crossed which the

7 Defence cannot accept.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

9 MR. WAESPI: Well, first of all, I think Your Honours it's not

10 hearsay because he's recounting what he has seen or what his impressions

11 were. And second, he is a trained military officer and he can certainly

12 make inferences from what he saw in the field. I also think he has

13 answered the question already.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving the decision, may I remind you that we

16 are in a bit of odd system as far as law of evidence is concerned. Since

17 there's no jury here, it will not always be possible to prevent a question

18 from being put to the witness, and sometimes as in this case it has

19 already been answered. So if you are objecting, we also consider this an

20 objection against the use of this information for our considerations.

21 It's known in all systems that there is always a type of a grey area where

22 experience, especially if it's specialist experience, touches upon whether

23 where we really get into the area where only an expert could answer any

24 questions. This Chamber is of the opinion that, first of all, it's no

25 hearsay because he didn't give any source of another person telling the

Page 4369

1 witness what he has testified.

2 Apart from that, that he gave a possible explanation for the way

3 he saw the pattern of the effect of this firing at the city, and the

4 Chamber thinks that this is still within the area where an experienced

5 military man can draw some inferences. But we come close to the field

6 where expertise would have been needed.

7 Please proceed. My decision was that the objection was denied.

8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. How much -- can you give us an estimate of how much ammunition was

10 spent by this gunner or this weapon at this occasion you have just told

11 us?

12 A. It would be very difficult for me to specify a number of rounds

13 that were used, but I have experience of firing, deploying, and

14 controlling automatic weapons up to 12.7 millimetres, firing them myself

15 as well as getting my troops to fire them. And I would have estimated

16 that it would be between 100 and 150 rounds if the weapon was at 12.7

17 millimetres.

18 Q. You already gave sort of an indication of how large or how small,

19 whatever you prefer, the area was, which was covered by the gun. Can you

20 give us an estimate, perhaps, comparing it to -- in metres or to whatever

21 you feel comfortable with?

22 A. The beaten zone from top to bottom or north to south as marked on

23 here would have been about 200 metres, two football pitch lengths, and

24 then that area moved to the east and then back to the west. So the

25 furthest would be -- the distance between the shortest and the furthest

Page 4370












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Page 4371

1 would have been about 200 metres.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding.

3 Have you seen this weapon being fired at other occasions than what

4 you just told us?

5 A. There have been numerous other occasions where I had seen heavy

6 weapons such as this firing. They are very distinctive. They have a

7 tracer burn so you can see the rounds in flight, and they have explosive

8 heads so you know that it's a heavy weapon, rather than a smaller

9 machine-gun. And I saw it on numerous times and normally just against

10 buildings.

11 Q. Perhaps we can go into and maybe even finish another subject

12 before the break. Did you become aware at some point that the ABiH was

13 firing with a mortar from the Kosevo hospital?

14 A. It was reported that the Kosevo hospital had been attacked. I

15 then found out from Colonel Cutler, I think it was, that a staff sergeant

16 had been refueling the generator that had been positioned at Kosevo

17 hospital. Whilst he was there, he saw mortars being fired from within the

18 confines of the hospital. And if the hospital was attacked, it would have

19 been as a direct result of the mortars within the hospital grounds.

20 Q. Do you recall the date this incident had happened?

21 A. It was in to January 1993.

22 Q. And when you say mortars were at the Kosevo hospital, do you

23 know the numbers or the number of these mortars?

24 A. As a result of that, I went to the Kosevo hospital. I looked at

25 the area that the staff sergeant would have been able to see, but I could

Page 4372

1 see no sign of any mortar activity, because they make a very distinctive

2 mark on the ground where their base plate digs in. And if it's on tarmac,

3 it would slide and be dangerous, so it has to be on safe ground.

4 Q. What conclusions did you draw from this observation?

5 A. If there was offensive action taken as a direct result of those

6 mortars, it can be referred to as counterbattery fire. However, when I

7 went to the hospital, there was fresh damage as it was only a week or two

8 after I conducted a battle damage assessment. And had the hospital been

9 damaged by a 76 millimetre anti-tank rounds or armour-piercing rounds, and

10 some of these rounds were presented to me, these rounds had hit the

11 building very high up. So even if they had been fired whilst the mortar

12 was firing, they would have been completely ineffective.

13 Six or seven rounds had hit the hospital, and obviously they had

14 been fired by a weapon aimed at the hospital rather than at any mortars

15 that may or may not have been there. So the hospital had been attacked,

16 and it was not a suitable weapon to use as counterbattery fire.

17 Q. If I read the transcript of what you just said, one sentence

18 starts, it's the second -- third sentence. "And had the hospital been

19 damaged by a 76 millimetre anti-tank rounds or armour-piercing rounds, and

20 some of these rounds were presented to me, these rounds had hit the

21 building very high up."

22 Can you just clarify? Perhaps it's a misstatement. What you

23 meant by that?

24 A. By high up, I mean that if it was counterbattery fire, it would be

25 aimed at something on the ground, but it obviously wasn't because it was

Page 4373

1 on the first or second storey of the building. So if it had been fired at

2 the same time as the mortars were firing, there was no way at all that it

3 would ever have hit the mortars because it was just fired at the

4 building. The building was the target, not any mortars.

5 Q. You said that you checked the area around the Kosevo Hospital and

6 tried to find the location of the mortar. And you mentioned these

7 markings, the plate marks. So did you observe or did you not observe any

8 such marks?

9 A. I found no marks on the ground to suggest that a mortar had been

10 firing.

11 Q. So if a mortar was fired, apparently the evidence is if that

12 mortar was fired, what kind of mortar use would that have been?

13 A. The staff sergeant didn't specify a calibre, but if it was going

14 to be noticed it was coming from the hospital, I'd expect it to be 81 or

15 82 millimetre mortar. But I didn't see any base plate marks, and

16 therefore it must have been mounted on something different.

17 Q. Perhaps a last subject, a brief one before the break, if the break

18 is taking place at 1.00?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 1.00.

20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Did you ever hear overhead the sound of a mortar while the

22 projectile is travelling through the air?

23 A. Yes, I have. Happened on one occasion. I was at PAPA 1, which is

24 on the hill just below the television transmitter and has been previously

25 described on the map the triangle numbered number 1. South of me, down

Page 4374

1 the hill, ABiH fired some mortars, and they were targeted to the north.

2 As they travelled up on their trajectory, they flew past me, and we could

3 hear them outbound, where normally, you would not hear that. It was only

4 because they were firing up and over the hill, that we could hear them.

5 That was the only time I heard mortars outbound.

6 Q. Did you ever see mortars employed by the ABiH mounted on trucks?

7 A. No. I never saw any, and I never had any reported to me by any of

8 the observation posts or the UNMOs on patrol.

9 Q. Were you specifically asked to watch for these kind of weapons?

10 A. Yes, we were, because it had been reported they were in operation,

11 but none of us had ever seen them. And so we were told to keep a watch

12 for them to prove or deny all the accusations that were being made at the

13 time.

14 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I think that would be a convenient

15 time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that's a convenient time to you, we will

17 adjourn now until 2.30 in the same courtroom.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.57 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.

21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour. Just as an introductory

22 comment, the fourth document which was brought to your attention given to

23 the Defence on Friday was proposed Exhibit Number P3659. That's this

24 two-page after incident report of 31st October, 1992. Again, this

25 document was brought with the witness on Thursday, and with your

Page 4375

1 permission, when we go into that incident, I will at the end show it to

2 him, whether he recognises the document, and I will suggest respectfully

3 that this document shares the same fate as the other two documents.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as I indicated before, perhaps later on when all

5 the rights of the Defence are observed properly, then of course whatever

6 these documents can be may be tendered into evidence. But at this very

7 moment since not yet, but marked for identification, fine.

8 Yes, please proceed.


10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Harding. Were you present in Sarajevo for the

11 Serb Orthodox New Year's Eve?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. Do you recall the date?

14 A. No. I don't know the exact date of it, but I certainly remember

15 it.

16 Q. Approximately which month, which year?

17 A. Early January.

18 Q. And which year?

19 A. In 1993.

20 Q. Now, you said that you certainly remember it. Why?

21 A. The sheer amount of fire that occurred to commemorate or to

22 recognise the new year it seemed that every weapon around the city opened

23 up at the same time of all calibres. I was at the PAPA HQ, and we could

24 see -- looking out the windows, we could see tracer all over the sky. My

25 observation post then reported on the radio that there was a lot of

Page 4376

1 activity, and you could hear in the background on their radio messages the

2 amount of fire that was actually happening as they were calling it in.

3 But there was so much that you couldn't indicate exactly where it was

4 going because it was going everywhere at the same time. And it lasted for

5 a considerable time.

6 Q. Can you be more precise in terms of "considerable time"?

7 A. Well, you might expect it just to go on for 30 seconds or

8 something, just to commemorate the actual time. But it must have gone on

9 for at least five to eight minutes of automatic fire of all calibres, and

10 so I would say that that's a considerable time, bearing in mind the amount

11 of ammunition that would be expended during that time.

12 Q. By automatic weapon by all kinds, can you name a few of the

13 weapons you thought were part of that?

14 A. Well, it would start from small calibre, 7.65, rifles right

15 through the automatic series, 12.7, and there were some heavy weapons

16 firing in the background. So I would say probably about 40 millimeters, I

17 suppose. The anti-aircraft weapons, they had a constant discharge of

18 ammunition, steady note going off. And also the amount of tracer that was

19 flying around, you could clearly see it, so it was from the larger

20 calibre, the 12.7s or the 20 millimeters, that sort of size.

21 Q. Can you tell us when exactly this fire was starting?

22 A. For the new year. It would have been at -- it was midnight.

23 Because it caught me by surprise. When we asked what was going on, that

24 was when we were informed that that's what it was.

25 Q. And how much of this fire which you just described was in fact

Page 4377












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Page 4378

1 hitting the city?

2 A. From my observation posts, they were saying that it was going -- a

3 lot of it was into the air, but also by default it has got to come down.

4 And some of it was into the city. So I would say 50, 60 per cent was

5 going down and the rest was going up into the air to illuminate. So a

6 considerable amount of ammunition was going into the city.

7 Q. And by city, which parts of the city are you referring to?

8 A. From that, I would say from PAPA HQ and to the east, to the area

9 known as Stari Grad. Although there was fire up to the western end, up

10 towards PTT and Nedzarici, and [indiscernible]. There wasn't as much as

11 down in the city.

12 Q. So you are saying that 50 to 60 per cent of the projectiles or

13 the -- whatever -- fire was directed into the city?

14 A. Yes, by 50 to 60 per cent directed down from the hillside

15 downwards as opposed to up, up on to the hills, into the air, sorry.

16 Q. Let me move to another incident. That's the 31st of October,

17 1992. Can you tell us where you were at that time.

18 A. On the 31st of October, 1992, I was in the PAPA headquarters, in

19 the building adjacent to the Presidency.

20 Q. And can you tell us what happened that day.

21 A. I was on radio watch in the headquarters, which just means that

22 I'm manning the radio, making notes of all the reports. At 1000 hours

23 exactly, artillery started to land on the city. One artillery round

24 landed just outside our office. A few minutes later, a woman came into

25 our office and was shouting and waving her arms around. At that time, I

Page 4379

1 didn't have an interpreter, so I stood up, I picked up my rucksack which

2 is full of medical supplies. She then started to indicate to me to go

3 with her. I went downstairs, and I was presented with a number of

4 casualties that had just been hit by the artillery round just outside the

5 office. There was three of them at that time. I looked over the three of

6 them, and I was joined by an Argentinian major who had been with

7 me, and we both started to give first aid to those casualties. As we were

8 administering to those three, another two were brought in. I had a quick

9 look at those and dealt with one of them, which was a fairly simple

10 shrapnel wound. I then moved on to a fairly elderly man. He had shrapnel

11 wounds in his legs, in his stomach, and he was rapidly going into shock.

12 I administered first aid to his wounds, but then I was informed that there

13 was only one or two ambulances in the city, and that they would not be

14 coming to my location, and decided that it was going to be a considerable

15 time before I could get this casualty to the hospital because of the

16 amount of ammunition that was landing on the city, it was a significant

17 barrage. A policeman then volunteered to drive a car, so we took this

18 elderly man on a stretcher and placed him in the back of a police car.

19 To help the stretcher, I got in the back of the car and carried

20 the end of it in so I was against the driver's seat and the passenger

21 seat. When I got out, everybody else had disappeared, so I had to get

22 back into the car. I held on to the casualty, on to the stretcher, and I

23 was leaning out the back of the Volkswagen Golf to stop the

24 door from coming down and crunching on to his legs. We then drove at

25 speed through the city to the Kosevo Hospital where he was taken by the

Page 4380

1 medical staff. Whilst I was there, some press people took some

2 photographs. I then got back into the Volkswagen Golf drove back through

3 the artillery bars. You could clearly see all the dust and debris. You

4 could hear the rounds falling all around. We drove back through that,

5 back to the headquarters where I resumed my radio watch.

6 Because UN personnel had assisted casualties and the press had

7 taken a photograph, I wrote a report of the incident and gave it to at

8 that time it was Colonel Mole so that if anything was said that the UN

9 were helping transport casualties, he knew why it happened and he would

10 then be able to answer the questions at the time, rather than have to find

11 out if regulations had been broken.

12 So although my personal medical stores had been used, no UN

13 vehicles had been used, it was just to make sure he knew what had gone

14 on.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding. Can you tell us --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Harding, can you tell us on a map where the location was where

19 you attended these casualties, please.

20 A. These casualties were presented to me in the PAPA headquarters,

21 which is in the building adjacent to the Presidency building on its

22 eastern side.

23 Q. These casualties, Mr. Harding, were these military people or

24 civilian people?

25 A. They were all civilian people.

Page 4381

1 Q. Were you able to see any military target around there which you

2 thought was engaged by the barrages that you had told us about?

3 A. From the round that caused those casualties and from the other

4 rounds that I observed enroute to the hospital, they were so spread out

5 that they were not in one particular location. And so I could not say a

6 specific military target, because they were all over the city. I could

7 see them, and I can hear them, and we drove through the dust from one that

8 got off enroute.

9 Q. When you say "they were all over the city," what do you mean by

10 "they"?

11 A. "They" being artillery rounds.

12 Q. Did you form an opinion about the source of these rounds you

13 described, the source of fire?

14 A. Observation posts were reporting seeing the impacts in the city by

15 the sheer amount of fire in the city -- landing in the city. It could

16 only have come from outside the city, that being the Bosnian Serb army.

17 Q. Now, you said that the bombardment started at 10.00. Did this

18 timing tell you something?

19 A. Yes. Yes, it did. It started exactly at 1000 hours and stopped

20 exactly at 1600 hours. That was a timed, concerted effort to bombard the

21 city with no specific military objective that could be identified either

22 by myself or by the observers in any of the PAPA positions.

23 Q. Mr. Harding, have you seen a similar concentration of fire in

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes, I have observed a similar concentration, and I just need to

Page 4382

1 re-adjust the map so you can see.

2 They need to see this area.

3 If you can see on the map, I'm pointing to the position marked

4 Number 5, which was PAPA 5. It was overlooking the PT. From this

5 position, I could observe across the plain to this area here, which is a

6 small village called Otes. From PAPA 5, I could clearly see Otes.

7 Q. Could you perhaps indicate with a "T" the broader area, perhaps a

8 circle around it and "T" inside.

9 A. The area I refer to has got a blue square around it with the

10 letters "OT" inside. That area is called Otes. I was in the observation

11 post at PAPA 5, and on the 2nd of December, 1992, we observed a

12 concentrated barrage of artillery into the square indicated on the map.

13 That started on the 2nd of December and finished on the 7th, 8th of

14 December. The concentration of artillery and mortars, that continued for

15 a day. There was then an assault with infantry and armoured vehicles

16 supported by tanks, and they gradually worked their way through the

17 buildings until the Serbian army had command of the area of Otes. It was

18 an all-arms attack, that meaning heavy weapons were used to support the

19 armour and the armour was used to support the infantry. It was a very,

20 very intensive use of artillery to the extent that the observers in PAPA 5

21 could not see or could not count the amount of ammunition landing in that

22 square because there was so much landing at the same time.

23 Q. So you are saying, from what you observed, that Otes was a proper

24 military attack using artillery and support infantry

25 A. It was a proper military attack, as you said. Artillery first and

Page 4383

1 then we could see the armoured vehicles and then the infantry, and you

2 could hear the small arms as they worked their way through and took their

3 that area of the ground. It was a controlled attack.

4 Q. Now, going back to the incident of the 31st of October, 1992,

5 compared with Otes, how would you describe this attack?

6 A. Well, Otes was a proper military attack, and we would have said

7 those former orders to instigate the attack, there was command and control

8 at various levels to achieve the objective which was in such a

9 concentrated area. On the 31st of October, there was no concentration of

10 fire. It was random from what I could see, and from what my observers

11 could see, although it started at the exact time of 1000 and it finished

12 at 1600, there was no obvious objective to be seen by myself or the

13 observation posts.

14 Q. Now, did the timing, what you just referred to, the direction of

15 fire and the range of calibres involved, tell you anything as to the

16 degree of planning involved and the levels -- the command levels which

17 would have been involved?

18 A. Do you refer to Otes or the 31st of October?

19 Q. To the 31st of October.

20 A. Well, on the 31st of October, all the weapons started to fire

21 exactly the same time, 1000 hours. And there was an obvious ceasefire at

22 1600 hours. The weapons were from various locations around the city.

23 They must have been by the amount of ammunition that was landing. So

24 there was a certain amount of command and control and orders given for

25 them to start firing at the same time. But the targets that they were

Page 4384












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Page 4385

1 given were not obvious to us, as the rounds were so spread out as opposed

2 to Otes when all the rounds fell within the square I marked on the map.

3 Q. Just to conclude this part, and to clarify, from which direction

4 or directions was the fire coming on the 31st of October, 1992?

5 A. I couldn't really answer that question because we were unable to

6 see the weapons firing, because they were beyond visual range. I couldn't

7 say from which direction as we were just subjected to the ammunition or

8 incoming shelling. But it was from numerous locations.

9 Q. Now, I would love to go back to these pictures.

10 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just ask you, Mr. Waespi, you indicated

12 three hours for this witness. Could you give us an estimate on how much

13 time you'd still need?

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, certainly, Your Honours. I think ten minutes,

15 quarter of an hour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


18 Q. I'm not sure whether you still have the pictures or whether they

19 were taken away. If the potential exhibit, the six pictures, P3662, could

20 be handed to the witness, please.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed, Mr. Waespi, where we used to receive

22 colour copies, I don't know if the colour is of no importance, we'll try

23 to manage. But...

24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you, Your Honours, for this observation.

25 Because we had to do it in a rush over the weekend and not all the UN

Page 4386

1 services work, especially since a holiday was involved, we will certainly

2 provide you with a colour photograph. And yes, I think it's important

3 that you see the original colours.

4 Q. Mr. Harding, if you could take us through picture by picture

5 starting with Number 1, which is the second row, the one in the middle.

6 And you just explain what these pictures display.

7 A. Right. The picture now being shown is picture number 1. Where my

8 pointer is, this is the road which leads up to the stadium. This is the

9 turn you would take to get to PAPA 3. This is the Lion Cemetery, which

10 was adjacent to PAPA 3, just here. The thing of note is that all the

11 fencing is down and has been knocked down, and you can see all the new

12 graveyard, grave marked by the new wooden posts.

13 Q. And the location of PAPA 3 would be where?

14 A. Just out of view around to the right. This goes to a little car

15 park where I'm pointing to now.

16 MR. WAESPI: The witness is now pointing to go the lower right

17 corner.

18 A. Your vehicle would drive up here to the right and stop, just a

19 very small car park.

20 Q. Now, picture number 2, the one immediately to the left.

21 A. Picture number 2 I'm showing now is looking directly at the door,

22 that was the main entrance, to where the UNMO stayed. In this area is

23 where the sandbags would normally have been, and just inside is where the

24 UNMOs were accommodated. Behind --

25 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Harding, just for the record.

Page 4387

1 MR. WAESPI: The witness mentioned the sandbags and he pointed to

2 the part just where the three, four stairs start if I'm --

3 A. That's correct. The sandbags were along the top of the stairs and

4 down the side. It would then form some protection for the UNMOs that

5 lived just inside this door. They would go up the stairs and it was on

6 the right-hand side that was their accommodation.

7 Q. Thank you. You want to add something?

8 A. This is a general shot of where the mortar hit the building, and

9 we had a look, you'll see from other shots, that where my pointer is

10 now --

11 Q. The witness points into the middle of the door.

12 A. -- the centre of the door. The remains are still there, and from

13 the crater and the shrapnel -- the damage you'll see in a moment -- where

14 my pointer is now dead centre to those doors is where the mortar round

15 landed.

16 Q. If we can move on to picture number 3.

17 A. Picture number 3 I'm showing now is a close-up of the door. See

18 where the mortar round would have hit, the approximate centre of the

19 door. You see the shrapnel damage on the wall, and it was in this area

20 and over just slightly out of the picture is where the remains of the

21 woman were. In a colour picture you can see there's blood down here and

22 the blood carried on outside.

23 MR. WAESPI: Yes. And for the record, the witness pointed to the

24 floor of that picture, the lower fifth more to the right of the picture at

25 hand.

Page 4388

1 Q. Can you tell us in relation to this entry of the UNMO PAPA Number

2 3, how far away were the APCs?

3 A. The APCs -- it would be better if we looked at another view of the

4 building. If I return to picture number 2 that we've already seen, the

5 APCs were to the left of this shot and behind the wall to that out of

6 sight.

7 Q. Can you tell us the distance in metres?

8 A. It is difficult to estimate it, but in a straight line, if we were

9 to draw it, it would be 80 to 100 metres away around the side and at

10 the back of this building completely out of view. And there was no

11 indication that there was anything there. This building was clearly

12 marked with a UN flag whilst we were there. But apart from that, there

13 was nothing. Access to the vehicles, to the APCs is not via this

14 entrance. They went around the back. And when there were people going to

15 and from them, they were not seen from this side of the building.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Harding.

17 Let's move on to picture number 4, please.

18 A. Picture number 4, again, is a straight-on view of the door where

19 the round landed. And to the bottom right of the door is where the

20 remains of the woman were, and there was some more mortar to the right.

21 But this shows the damage that was caused by that round.

22 Q. And the last two pictures, first number 5.

23 A. Number 5 shows the new graves that had been dug. To the right of

24 the graves, you'll see a line of trees --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 4389

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We were

2 specifically talking about photographs, so could it be more precise. We

3 do not know what time frame we're talking about for each of these

4 photographs.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as my recollection goes, the witness has

6 testified that this was on -- I think the day after the impact. But if

7 this is not correct, and as far as I understood, all the pictures were

8 taken the same day. Is that true?

9 THE WITNESS: I took these photographs, and they were taken on the

10 24th of October, 1992.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


13 Q. If you could describe picture number 5, please, continue if there

14 is anything else.

15 A. Picture number 5, the new graves that have been dug, to the right,

16 top right corner, you can see a line of trees. That line of trees

17 indicates the road that goes down towards the stadium. On the other side

18 of that road is the Lion Cemetery. These graves are overflow graves from

19 the Lion Cemetery, and you're looking north to take this picture. PAPA 3

20 is to the right, slightly out of view, and on the other side of the road.

21 This shows the overflow.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 And finally, picture number 6.

24 A. Picture number 6, to the right and the bottom corner can be seen

25 graves that have been dug ready to receive the dead. And on the left-hand

Page 4390

1 side, you can see the start of the all-weather football pitch, and you can

2 see the graves that have already been dug into that all-weather football

3 pitch, and there are ones waiting for the dead and also some marked with

4 wooden grave markers.

5 Q. Can you tell us in relation to picture 6 into which direction we

6 are looking?

7 A. Just double-check on the map. We're looking north as the photo is

8 taken, and the door that we saw that was damaged is also facing north.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Harding.

10 I would like to ask you a few questions just in clarification of

11 what you have said. You testified earlier this morning about the tunnels,

12 and you said that there were two tunnels. You mentioned that the tanks

13 were in the northern end of one of the tunnels. First of all, can you

14 tell us on the map, indicate please, where these tunnels were.

15 A. [Indicates].

16 Q. Can you mark it with your blue pen again. Perhaps just two lines

17 for both strings of a -- of the tunnel.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you.

20 And that means obviously that these tunnels are moving parallel?

21 A. Yes, they are.

22 Q. And the northern end would be which one?

23 A. I see the orientation, it's better to describe it as the western

24 end. The tunnel I refer to is the western end of the southern tunnel.

25 Q. So can you indicate by a cross where you saw the tanks.

Page 4391












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4392

1 A. I put a cross just by the entrance so the southern tunnel on the

2 western side just inside.

3 Q. And was this the tunnel which was used by the traffic which was

4 open?

5 A. Yes, that tunnel has got a road either side. The northern tunnel

6 on the eastern side, there is no road leading to it. It needs a bridge

7 and there isn't one.

8 Q. Now, you have also testified this morning that you said prior to

9 you arriving to PAPA 1, there was no firing from PAPA 1, that these

10 artillery positions were not active. While you were there, in Sarajevo,

11 indeed on PAPA 1, was there any firing from those positions?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You also testified this morning and said that there was increased

14 risk of attack, and you explained that around the Lion Cemetery, and you

15 went on to say, and I quote: "You didn't stand around near the cemetery."

16 What do you mean by "increased risk?"

17 A. By increased risk, I mean that because there was a concentration

18 of people, they were more likely to be shelled or attacked. So you did

19 not stand around when there was a group of people at the cemetery. If

20 there was one or two, perhaps digging graves, it wasn't so bad. But if

21 there was a funeral going on, you don't stand too close to the funeral

22 because there was increased risk, because those people can be seen from

23 positions to the north of the Lion Cemetery.

24 Q. Now, you said that, and I quote again: "It was a common thing,

25 these attacks." Can you elaborate more what do you mean by a "common

Page 4393

1 thing." Was it a daily occurrence, was it more often, less often?

2 A. The difficulty I have is because it happened a lot, it became

3 normal, and because it was considered normal, we didn't make a report on

4 it because it was something that happened. It is very difficult for me to

5 say how many funerals were attacked. It was normal for them to be

6 attacked, although it may seem strange in this courtroom, at the time it

7 was normal. And so we never stood around waiting, watching these

8 funerals.

9 Q. You were there between the beginning of August until mid-January.

10 In terms of occurrences of attacks on funerals, was there more attacks

11 before mid-September or afterwards or couldn't you tell?

12 A. With a certainty I can say that the attacks became more common

13 because the trees started to lose their leaves. Eventually all the trees

14 were cut down which then made that area to be in plain view of positions

15 to the north, and so it would be seen that a funeral was taking place and

16 so that it would be attacked. When I first arrived, the trees all had

17 their leaves and you couldn't really see the cemetery from a distance.

18 But as time progressed, the attacks would have increased.

19 Q. You said that it became normal, these attacks, and because it was

20 considered normal, we didn't make a report on it because it was something

21 that happened."

22 Apart from attacks on funerals, do you recall other "normal

23 things" which you wouldn't report?

24 A. By not reporting, we would report that the artillery rounds or

25 whatever ammunition had landed there. So we reported as a military

Page 4394

1 action, but not record it as an attack on a funeral, if you see what the

2 difference is. Another normal thing was for a single round of artillery

3 or mortar to land at any time and virtually anywhere within the city.

4 This was normal, but it meant every time you went outside, you ran the

5 risk of being caught by these single rounds that were landing. And so

6 these single rounds became normal, and although they would have been

7 reported as seen, it was significant risk to go outside.

8 Q. Let me ask you about this single shot you just mentioned. Is

9 there any military sense in firing a single artillery or mortar shot?

10 A. Well, there are certain, if you could call them, benefits or

11 objectives from firing a single shot. By doing so, you would achieve

12 maximum surprise. By achieving maximum surprise, you can create the

13 maximum amount of casualties. You also increase the psychological effects

14 on the civilians of the city by doing this because they would always be

15 wary of going outside. From a military point of view, it's minimum

16 effort, because it's only one round, and it's minimum expenditure of

17 ammunition, so you can conserve stocks. So there are five reasons that

18 you could fire one of those rounds. But it was into a civilian area.

19 Q. Against military targets, and perhaps I misunderstood you, against

20 military targets, is there any military objective in using just one round

21 of an artillery piece?

22 A. The artillery is usually used in support of a military action, to

23 clear the ground ahead of your own forces or to subdue enemy activity.

24 But normally, you would not fire just one round. The only military time

25 you would maybe fire one round would be to -- it's called fire in, to

Page 4395

1 check fire, before anything was to happen. But that would be on to a

2 specific target. These single rounds were just falling all around the

3 city, and you can't say a specific time because it was completely random.

4 And so there was no military objective for these because they were not on

5 the military targets. They were not on the front lines. They were well

6 away from the front lines. They were inside the -- inside the city, in

7 the main streets, into the market or wherever. It was in the city but no

8 specific location. So from a military point of view, we would say no,

9 because it's not conventional warfare.

10 Q. You said that your -- the Russian major, Roumiantsev, that he

11 reported about this attack on the funeral. Can you clarify again what his

12 position was vis-a-vis you?

13 A. He was north of the cemetery --

14 Q. I'm sorry. His function rather than his position.

15 A. His function?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. He was my second in command. He was on a patrol and was checking

18 the UNMOs at the cemetery -- wrong, at the stadium. And so he was north

19 of the position looking south. He was my second in command and would have

20 returned straight to PAPA headquarters.

21 Q. Now, did he make any suggestions that there was outgoing fire from

22 the area of the Lion Cemetery which may have attracted incoming fire?

23 A. No, nothing at all. If there had been, I'm sure he would have

24 heard it. And if he had, I know he would have put it in the report and he

25 would have told me.

Page 4396

1 Q. You have mentioned that the stadium was -- also received fire.

2 Now, on the map we sort of see two circles -- ovals I guess they are

3 called which resemble a stadium. By "stadium," which one are you

4 referring to?

5 A. My stadium, the main olympic stadium which had the seating all the

6 way around the outside, I can see the two. But this map isn't good enough

7 for me to be able to remember which one it was going to be. It's the main

8 olympic stadium. There's a football pitch in the middle of it. It has a

9 running track. I could have made a mistake. It could be this one just

10 here indicated on the map as the darker circle, which is largest as

11 opposed to this one here.

12 Q. Thank you. And the darker circle which is largest, you referred

13 to the circle which is in between number 4 and 5, but more to the left.

14 A. Between 4 and 3.

15 Q. 4 and 3, I'm sorry.

16 A. There's 3. I was trying to see from the photographs to see

17 exactly the distance between -- I'd need clarification or a better map to

18 say if that is the main olympic stadium, and I may have to reconsider and

19 say that yes, that is, because it has got all the seating, and so he would

20 be where my pointer is now, which is on the eastern side of that stadium.

21 And he could then see across to the Lion Cemetery.

22 Q. Now, the last question on this, and with your indulgence,

23 Your Honours, I misjudged my time. I'm sure I'll get better. It's

24 probably another five minutes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that as well. Please proceed,

Page 4397

1 Mr. Waespi. And I would like to urge the parties to keep as strict as

2 possible to the time limits.

3 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour.

4 Q. Why was there fire into this stadium? Do you have any -- made any

5 observations?

6 A. Underneath the stadium is where there were some weapons and the

7 soldiers. The troops from PAPA 1 moved into the stadium, and their guns

8 were under the stadium. Also under there were 120 millimetre mortars and

9 the trucks that moved the artillery pieces. These were checked every

10 day. There was an UNMO there, and they never moved. They were just down

11 underneath under the basement.

12 Q. Are you aware of any agreement that they wouldn't be used in the

13 conflict?

14 A. They were constantly monitored. I'm not aware of any agreement

15 like that.

16 Q. Now, two last points: The first one is, can you, again, tell us

17 in relation to the PAPA UNMOs 1 to 4 when they were removed or moved to

18 another location? Don't say where they were moved to, but just in your

19 timely recollection when did that happen, if it happened. Perhaps UNMO

20 PAPA 1 first.

21 A. They were moved in September and October. And PAPA 6 would have

22 been put in late October.

23 Q. And PAPA 2?

24 A. Again, September. It's difficult for me to identify the exact

25 month.

Page 4398












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4399

1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. But it was realised that the UNMOs at PAPA 2 were not doing a

3 proper observation job, and so another location was found for them. So

4 that would have been, say, October 1992.

5 Q. How about PAPA 3 and PAPA 4?

6 A. The personnel from PAPA 3 would have been withdrawn probably

7 October. And again, judging from the photos I referred to earlier on,

8 that would have been October 1992.

9 Q. And the new PAPA 4, where was that position?

10 A. PAPA 4 at the stadium, we had a new PAPA 6 that was put in place,

11 and that would have been, again, October, November time.

12 Q. Yes. If you could please refer to the map and mark the new PAPA

13 4, if you recall where that location was.

14 A. Well, we had a position within the stadium, PAPA 4.

15 Q. So it remained within the stadium?

16 A. Yes. That numbering. So the new positions were the PAPA 6 that

17 was looking north, repositioned PAPA 2 looking south, and then the new

18 PAPA 5 also looking south. If you were to draw the left and the right

19 arcs of each observation post, they overlap.

20 Q. Can you go to picture number 6 again, please. Are you able to see

21 the confrontation line between the Bosnian Serb army and the ABiH, or at

22 least some positions from the Bosnian Serbs? And can you please mark it

23 on the photo.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. The witness drew a V indicating that these are what?

Page 4400

1 A. On picture number 6, I've drawn a V which is pointing to a

2 building. That building overlooked the stadium. And when I first

3 started, that's where sniper fire would come down, and you could -- into

4 the stadium. And so that is approximately where the front line was when I

5 first arrived. It was down the road from PAPA 3, passed the stadium, and

6 then at the edge of the urban area which was just on the other side of the

7 building marked with a V in picture number 6.

8 Q. And so everything at the hill behind was -- were positions

9 controlled by the Bosnian Serb army?

10 A. Yes, all the high ground in the distance is Bosnian Serb army.

11 Q. Now, just last -- one last question which may take one or two

12 minutes. Were you aware, Mr. Harding, of a dead female that was found a

13 couple of hundred metres away from the PTT building?

14 A. Yes, I was. I was driving from the airport down the airport road

15 towards the PTT. Because of the debris on the road, all the vehicles

16 drive on the same side of the road. And then as we drove down, the driver

17 pointed out that there was a dead person lying in the road. I was then

18 told that that person was there all day, and was eventually moved by UN

19 personnel with an armoured personnel carrier. I couldn't stop because I

20 was in a soft-skinned vehicle in an area known to have a lot of snipers

21 and small-arms fire.

22 Q. Can I stop you there, Mr. Harding. Do you know it was in danger

23 from which side of the confrontation line?

24 A. To stop there, you're in view of the Serbian forces on the front

25 line there. It was a known area that was covered by Serb forces, Serb

Page 4401

1 snipers.

2 Q. Now, can you tell us on the map where that location was.

3 A. [Marks].

4 MR. WAESPI: The witness just marked the location with a cross and

5 the letters "CAS."

6 Q. Are you aware in which part of the body the witness was shot at?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We all know that time is

9 running. We've all noticed that. But it would be a good idea if the

10 Prosecution would pinpoint the time when all this was happening, because

11 this has not been stated, neither by the Prosecution nor by the witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, could you please assist

13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, certainly, Your Honours.

15 Q. Mr. Harding, do you recall the date this incident happened?

16 A. I can't recall the exact date without looking through my diary,

17 which I made at the time. But I was the subsector commander, and so it

18 would have been between the 13th of November, 1992, and the 23rd of

19 January, 1993, to give it a bracket. As for an exact date, I would need

20 to look at the diary.

21 Q. Now, can I --

22 MR. WAESPI: Sorry, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's fine.


25 Q. Can I repeat the question I just asked before my learned friend

Page 4402

1 stood up: Are you aware which part of the body the woman was shot at?

2 A. Yes. Once I was informed that the body had been picked up. I

3 went to the morgue at the Kosevo Hospital and saw the woman and inspected

4 the body to see where she had been shot. She had been hit in the head

5 either by a single shot from a high-velocity rifle or a piece of shrapnel

6 because there was a very large exit hole. It was a single round that had

7 killed her. I also asked to see what was with the body at the time, and

8 there was a plastic bag with some sticks in it, firewood. It was

9 definitely the body picked up from near the PTT as indicated on the map.

10 It had a very distinct dark brown long coat. So to answer the question,

11 in my professional opinion, it was a single shot from a sniper rifle.

12 Q. How old was this woman?

13 A. Between 21 and 25.

14 Q. Now, my last question, clarification again: In your statement you

15 gave to an investigator, you said that this incident happened on the 29th

16 of January, 1993.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we object to the

19 admission of this statement and therefore we cannot accept what was just

20 said.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please explain why you -- do you want this

22 part of the statement be read to the witness or -- I mean, what's your

23 objection based on?

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In my view, the Prosecution is

25 putting a leading question. The question follows from a document for

Page 4403

1 which it has not yet been decided whether it will be admitted or not and

2 that is why I am objecting.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell me what the question was? As

4 far as I can read in the transcript now, the question until you

5 interrupted was: "Now, my last question, clarification again, in your

6 statement you gave to an investigator you said that this incident happened

7 on the 29th of January, 1993." I do not know what the question would be

8 after. Or would you like the Prosecution first to establish whether this

9 was part of the statement? I mean, if it's the Defence case that this is

10 not part of the statement, then of course it would be different.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the problem is

12 that the witness has just said very clearly, and this was before this

13 question was put to him, that this event could only have taken place

14 between two dates, one of which is a date that is before the 29th of

15 January. The witness has, therefore, already specified a certain period,

16 but in any case, it is up to you, Your Honours, to make a decision on

17 this.

18 JUDGE ORIE: What would be your question, Mr. Waespi? Because I

19 do not know yet, since the statement you're confronting the witness with

20 gives a different answer to what you earlier asked the witness -- to the

21 earlier answer of the witness.

22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour. I started my issue with

23 saying it's a clarification, because the witness had said this morning

24 that he left I believe on the 23rd of January, and this is a week before

25 this incident happened. So I wanted to ask him to clarify this issue.

Page 4404

1 And the second point is, we don't intend to tender this witness

2 statement. Of course not. It's just giving him a chance to clarify

3 whether this heading of the incident, that female, 29th January, 1993,

4 whether that's correct as he recalls today. That's my question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: One moment please.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed. The objection is denied. The

8 answer in view of the earlier statement clearly is in need of some

9 clarification. We'll first hear what it is.


11 Q. Mr. Harding, can you tell us whether this incident which you

12 talked about, indeed as you had stated in your witness statement, happened

13 on the 29th of January, 1993, or on another date?

14 A. To find out the exact date, I'd need to look in my diary. But it

15 was definitely within my period there because I definitely remember

16 searching the woman to see where the injuries were on her dead body. The

17 reason I was saying the 23rd of January is that's when I thought I had

18 finished my diary, but it was in my time as the subsector commander. So

19 if there is a confusion in the dates, I would again have to look at the

20 diary. But it was definitely within my time.

21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions to

22 this witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi.

24 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. First, let

Page 4405












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4406

1 me thank you for giving us the floor. The last time we spent too much

2 time, and you criticized us for good reason. Today, we have only about 10

3 minutes left, and I will not be here tomorrow, although I had told you

4 earlier that I would be cross-examining this witness, we will have to make

5 the best of it and change our plans. So I now wish to ask you to give us

6 five minutes because I will not be here tomorrow. I can start this now,

7 but I think the presence of the witness is not necessary.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

10 Q. [Interpretation] I will ask my questions in French, one of the

11 official languages of this Tribunal. Because we were unable to prepare

12 for this cross-examination, I will ask you to give very short replies. My

13 first question is: How many military corps were there in Sarajevo and

14 which army did they belong to? For the interpreters, I'm speaking of the

15 location.

16 A. The location Sarajevo, the 1st Corps of the Bosnian army, that was

17 what I referred to.

18 Q. Yes, sir. We all understand that we are speaking of Sarajevo, but

19 precisely where in Sarajevo?

20 A. The 1st Corps had elements deployed around, around the city, at

21 various locations, which were then divided into individual units and

22 commands. It all came under the 1st Corps headquarters, which I reported

23 to on numerous occasions each week.

24 Q. Very well, sir. Can you tell us now where exactly these

25 headquarters were, the headquarters of the 1st Corps, the headquarters of

Page 4407

1 the 1st battalion -- I apologise, of the 1st Brigade, the 2nd, and the 5th

2 Motorised Brigade? Please, be very precise. In what streets? And if

3 possible, give us the house number as well.

4 A. The 1st Corps headquarters were a seven-minute walk north from

5 PAPA headquarters. And they were in the basement of a multistorey

6 building. Regarding other battalion headquarters, company headquarters,

7 they were --

8 Q. I must interrupt you, sir. Please let us be short. I asked you

9 whether you knew the name of the street and the house number. I will

10 repeat my question: I asked you whether you knew the street and the house

11 number. If you don't, tell us so.

12 A. I was never informed of those because I knew where to walk to.

13 Q. But if you don't know, you can just tell us you don't know. We

14 would like to take up as little time as possible.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, just two points a general one and a specific

17 one. If my learned counsel could let the witness finish his answers, and

18 we would like to offer that the witness be recalled at a later point so

19 that the Defence also Mr. Piletta-Zanin can cross-examine the witness and

20 has full time to do so.

21 But I would really like that Mr. Harding is allowed to finish his

22 answers.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that if, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you ask a

24 question, perhaps it's good first to listen to what the witness says, and

25 if it's not precise enough. On the other hand, I do not mind to be quite

Page 4408

1 honest that if the witness is giving descriptions that are more vague than

2 Defence counsel would like to know. If, for example -- let's just take an

3 example. If Mr. Piletta-Zanin just wants to know whether the witness is

4 aware of the name of the street and the number of any headquarters, he is

5 allowed to ask. I mean, it is a different question whether this Chamber

6 might be interested to know even if he doesn't know the name of the street

7 and the number of the building whether this Chamber might be interested to

8 know where about the headquarters might have been. But I leave it to up

9 to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to ask exactly what he wants to ask.

10 But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it might also be a bit a result of your

11 question. You first tell us could you tell us where the headquarters were

12 and your next question is, could you tell us very precise, and then you

13 you'd like to know the name of the street and the number as well. If you

14 just start asking are you aware of the names of the streets and the

15 numbers of the buildings where the headquarters or the brigades, and then

16 perhaps the 1st Brigade, then it goes far quicker, and you can come quite

17 quicker to where you'd like to be as far as I understand you.

18 So the more precise the question is the more precise you get the

19 answer in a quick way. Please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Could you please tell us the street number and the floor. We are

22 still speaking of the 1st Corps, and I'm asking the precise address, the

23 street, the house number, and the floor.

24 A. No, I cannot tell you the street or the house number. It's on the

25 ground floor.

Page 4409

1 Q. Thank you, sir. And the 2nd Brigade, do you know the exact

2 address, the street, the house number, and the floor?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 What about the 2nd Brigade, the same question, the street, the

6 house number, the floor?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, the 5th Brigade, can you tell us the street, the

9 house number, and the floor?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Can I ask you whether you know at least something. Do you know

12 this information for any brigade, any battalion? Could you tell us the

13 precise address of any of these headquarters? If you can't, then tell

14 us so.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you for this precise reply.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am now forced

18 to put a question of a personal nature. This is my duty as Defence

19 counsel.

20 Q. Sir, this question is not meant to be an attack on you. I

21 apologise for having to ask you it, but sir, I can see that today, you are

22 disabled. I think you were not when you were in Sarajevo. Is that

23 correct?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

25 MR. WAESPI: I think we had clarified this point even before the

Page 4410

1 witness came in.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you, that you clarified it. But I

3 don't know. Did you inform the Defence on the details? Because the -- I

4 can imagine that the Defence might not be willing to accept your -- good

5 reasons to believe that your explanation might not be the right one, then

6 of course -- I do not know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any reason to

7 doubt the explanation given by the Prosecution, that the handicap of

8 Mr. Harding is not related in any way, as far as I understand, to the

9 conflict in the former Yugoslavia? Is there any reason to have any doubt

10 or is there any specific -- could you please tell us the relevance of your

11 question?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I only wished to be quite

13 certain that there is absolutely no connection between the events we are

14 referring to today and Mr. Harding's handicap. Of course, if there were

15 any connection between these two events, it would have legal

16 consequences. I know that this is a very personal question, but the reply

17 to this question would clarify certain matters for all of us.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever objection there may have been, I think

20 it's -- the Defence is entitled to ask. And let me just look at your

21 question precisely.

22 Your first question -- your question was: "I think you were not

23 when you were in Sarajevo. Is that correct?" So I think the --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my first

25 question. I said I think that during your time in Sarajevo, you did not

Page 4411

1 have this disability.


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But to avoid someone objecting

4 to my putting such a personal question, I can leave it to the Trial

5 Chamber to establish this and clarify the situation.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Since it may be experienced as a very sensible issue,

7 I'll be glad to assist you. Mr. Harding, the Defence just wants to

8 clarify whether there could be any relation between your handicap and your

9 testimony in this Court. Your handicap, does it date from before your

10 time in Sarajevo or from after your time in Sarajevo?

11 THE WITNESS: After.

12 JUDGE ORIE: After the time in Sarajevo. Was it related in

13 whatever way, I would say, to the Balkans?

14 THE WITNESS: No. Nothing at all to do. I was involved in a road

15 traffic accident in the United Kingdom in 1997.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think this clarifies the issue.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

18 Thank you for giving this answer. I can understand it's a

19 sensitive issue. You can understand why the Defence would like to make

20 sure that there's no relation whatsoever.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall proceed.

23 Q. As far as I understand, you were involved in a road accident in

24 1997, and I am sorry about this. But this accident had no connection

25 with, for example, a mission you may have been involved in in Great

Page 4412












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4413

1 Britain that was connected to the previous events because as far as I know

2 you were still serving in the military in great Britain after you returned

3 from Sarajevo?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.

5 MR. WAESPI: I think you clarified this point.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It is my understanding, Mr. Harding, but please

7 correct me if I am wrong, that this road accident had nothing to do in

8 whatever way with either a mission related to the -- what I call the

9 Balkans, just in very general terms. If I'm not correct in understanding,

10 please tell me. If it's totally unrelated, Mr. Piletta-Zanin will put his

11 next question to you.

12 THE WITNESS: At the time of my road traffic accident, I was an

13 instructor at the Air Academy for the Royal Air Force. . It was

14 instructional duties, and these instructional duties had nothing to do

15 with the Balkans or anything outside of the United Kingdom.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 Apart from that, it is 4.00 now, I promised you five minutes which

18 I did not give you yet. So I'd like to perhaps stop here if that's a

19 convenient moment for the Defence.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think we agreed that the issues you'd

23 like to raise do not necessarily have to be raised in the presence of the

24 witness because they have not nothing to do with that. So therefore I

25 would like to ask the usher to lead the witness out of the courtroom.

Page 4414

1 Mr. Harding, we will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00, not at

2 9.30 as today but 9.00.

3 Mr. Usher, could you...

4 [Witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for

7 giving me the floor. There are two things I wish to say. As I told you

8 before, I will be absent for reasons beyond my control. These are family

9 matters. I have prepared as far as I was able to for a part of the

10 cross-examination of this witness who, as we can see, cannot tell us where

11 the headquarters of the various brigades were located. And I'm afraid

12 that the witness will have to be recalled. The Defence has already said

13 that they wished this witness to be recalled at some point. Tomorrow, my

14 colleague will continue cross-examining the witness; however, there are

15 some questions I would personally like to put to the witness in my own

16 way, and I will be able to do this only later. This week, we shall be

17 discussing the application of Rule 92 bis (e), and I would like to be

18 present when this is done because I wish to expound certain aspects of

19 this issue here. A trial in absentia would not be the correct thing to

20 do in this case, so we wish to consider this issue not before Wednesday.

21 I have tried to be brief and to put my points to you as briefly as

22 possible. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you first one clarification, if you

24 say you'd like to have this witness recalled, do you mean Wednesday or

25 Thursday, or do you mean on a longer term? I mean, how much time would

Page 4415

1 you need to prepare for it?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you correctly see that

3 the Defence also pays attention to the state of person. I see that this

4 is a handicapped person and of course I understand it's not very

5 convenient for him to travel back and forth. So if I have to prepare

6 overnight, then I will do it overnight. It won't be the first and the

7 last time. So however, as of Wednesday or perhaps Thursday, yes, that

8 would be fine.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that your suggestion is that

10 tomorrow, whatever questions can be put by Ms. Pilipovic will be put to

11 the witness, that there are some remaining questions you'd like to put to

12 the witness yourself. You would prefer not to discuss the 92 bis issue

13 tomorrow. That means that if there's any time left tomorrow, that we

14 should continue with your next witness, and that would be?

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. Kucanin, Mr. President, and he's likely to be

16 some time. He has been waiting around since mid-last week.

17 Mr. President, whilst I'm on my feet, might I respond to some of those

18 issues. The Prosecution makes no concession to the Defence in its claim

19 that it has had insufficient time to prepare this witness. It's had his

20 statement since December. There was a 65 ter summary. We've complied

21 with the seven-day notice rule. However, if the witness has to come back

22 in any event because of the situation with the reports, then we are

23 prepared to accommodate Mr. Piletta-Zanin's desire to ask some further

24 questions.

25 Mr. President, Mr. Piletta-Zanin has also said that he cannot be

Page 4416

1 here tomorrow. I have no recollection of the Trial Chamber being informed

2 of that last Thursday when these arrangements were made to swap around two

3 witnesses, Harding and Kucanin. I therefore assume this is a late

4 development. I appreciate that it's a family matter. So Mr. President,

5 that's the situation. If he's coming back anyway on Wednesday because of

6 the reports or at a later date if you deem it appropriate, then we're

7 prepared to accommodate the late cross-examination. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just in order to avoid

9 whatever debate, it is my understanding, since you told us that it was a

10 family matter, that usually you do not arrive on Monday morning in

11 The Hague and to travel back again Monday evening if it's not something

12 that really asks for your presence. So unless you'd like to add something

13 to it, I would say that this Chamber accepts there will be good reason for

14 it, for your absence tomorrow. And since we can continue, we don't...

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber will be able to continue tomorrow,

17 we start with Mr. Harding, then if necessary, we'll continue with the

18 examination-in-chief of Mr. Harding. Then on -- examination-in-chief of

19 Mr. Kucanin. Then on Wednesday, I think the remaining questions to be put

20 in cross-examination to Mr. Harding will be put to him first, although

21 it's a bit of an unquiet order. Perhaps under these circumstances, we

22 should accept it. If that would be acceptable to all the parties, and no

23 92 bis tomorrow, Tuesday, then I'd -- the Chamber will order that this is

24 how we proceed during the next few days.

25 Mr. Ierace.

Page 4417

1 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. It still leaves perhaps the

2 issue of the reports which have not been translated into B/C/S.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At what notice could it be done?

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps we could make some inquiries

5 this afternoon and update you first thing tomorrow as to when that could

6 be done by.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unfortunately it's Mr. Piletta-Zanin who is not

8 there who could perhaps otherwise go through the reports together with

9 General Galic. May I urge, especially the Prosecution, to find a

10 solution. I know how difficult the translations usually are, but to find

11 a way or to -- if there would be an interpreter who could read it. I mean

12 it's not a hundred-page document. Let's just try to see whether we can

13 solve this, let's say, before tomorrow mid-day if possible, so that

14 there's a fair chance to conclude the cross-examination as well on

15 Wednesday.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I should raise this now whilst

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is now. I wonder whether it would be acceptable to the

18 Defence if, assuming we could arrange it, an interpreter could translate

19 the relevant documents to the accused during one of the breaks tomorrow,

20 perhaps an extended break for that purpose.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps even in the presence of

22 Ms. Pilipovic so that she immediately is aware of the contents as well.

23 Let's just start and see whether this works out. And then we'll

24 see whether we can proceed on Wednesday.

25 May I assume that you, Mr. Ierace, and Ms. Pilipovic, will be in

Page 4418












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4419

1 touch with each other as far as the arrangements for the translation are

2 concerned? Yes.

3 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same

4 courtroom.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 4.09 p.m., to be reconvened on

7 Tuesday, the 26th day of February, 2000,

8 at 9.00 a.m.