Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5342

1 Thursday, 14 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Madam Registrar, I think before resuming the cross-examination of

11 the witness Mr. Sabljica, I'd like to turn into private session in order

12 to give a decision on a request made orally yesterday.

13 [Private session]

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Page 5343












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Page 5344

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that "PS" disappeared from the screen.

Page 5345

1 1 That means that we now could escort Mr. Sabljica back into the courtroom.

2 But I'll first ask the technical booth not to have his face on the video

3 while he enters the Court, since facial distortion is one of the

4 protective measures in effect.

5 Mr. Usher, could you...

6 Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Thank

8 you. The Defence would just like to inform the Chamber concerning our

9 conversation about the document 2172. Our learned friends informed us

10 yesterday that it was on the 26th of November that they had provided us

11 with the document that we were given yesterday. After a thorough search

12 of all the documents in our possession, we just wish to notify the Chamber

13 of the fact that we have not received such document. The document that we

14 had under Number 2172 was an illegible document. In order not to waste

15 this Honourable Chamber's time, I should kindly ask my learned friends

16 from the Prosecution not to provide such false information to the Court.

17 As for any misunderstandings that may have happened between the parties, I

18 suggest that we try to clear up the issue amongst ourselves.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about 2172, the photo series, or...?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.


22 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, without spending too

23 much time on this, the Prosecution at no stage intends to proffer to the

24 Court false information.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to make it quite short, I take it that if

Page 5346

1 such statements are made, that these will be mistakes, if not true. I do

2 not start with the thought that there would be any incorrect information

3 given on purpose. That's my starting point for both parties. Would it

4 ever turn out that it would be different, then of course we have a serious

5 problem. But I do understand that the Defence says it's not correct

6 information. I can't check it at this very moment.

7 MR. STAMP: I will check it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you will check it. What I'd like to

9 prevent is that, finally, this Chamber is sitting, hearing that false

10 information is given, whether on purpose or not, that the other party says

11 it's not true, et cetera, et cetera. If there's any such problem, I'd

12 like you to ask the Prosecutor why he has given information which is not

13 true so that he can at that very moment respond and say, well, it is true

14 because of these and these reasons. And you check it again, and to solve

15 these problems, at least to try to solve these problems first out of this

16 courtroom, and only when both parties have tried to clarify where the

17 misunderstanding is, and if finally one of the parties is really convinced

18 that this Court is provided, on purpose, on important issues with false

19 information, then of course we'll give it full attention. But first

20 exchange your views, see where the miscommunication might be, and only if

21 finally you will not resolve the problem, then come to the Court. Because

22 then we can pay proper attention to it and not say, well, I hear you

23 saying it's false, I hear you saying you didn't do it on purpose. I mean,

24 it doesn't assist us very much in the conduct of the trial at this moment.

25 If there's a great problem, we'll pay proper attention to it.

Page 5347

1 MR. STAMP: I entirely agree, Mr. President.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm happy to see both parties agree with what I said.

4 Mr. Usher -- is there anything? Yes, please.

5 MR. STAMP: May I just say that the statement having been put on

6 the record just in respect to this issue, I will clarify it and provide

7 the Court with very accurate information in respect to what was served and

8 how many times these documents were served on the Defence. And I will do

9 so after the next break, just for the record. Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if the parties might have difficulties in

11 exchanging the views as I suggested to them, finally, I might -- or this

12 Chamber might come to a position where we say these kind of objections,

13 write them down, we'll see how they reach the Chamber, and not spend

14 valuable time on it in Court. We have to make a clear distinction between

15 those issues that are of importance to the trial and those issues that are

16 mainly reflecting dissatisfaction, irritation, whatever you call it,

17 because I want to make a clear distinction between these two.

18 Mr. Usher, could you please lead in the -- yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, excuse me, but

20 with your permission, I should like to follow up on what you have just

21 said regarding the following, and it is extremely important that we know

22 for the purposes of the right of the Defence what has been done by the

23 Prosecution in order to trace the evidence, physical evidence, that we

24 have spoken about, that is the fragments of the shell. We should like to

25 ask the Prosecution how far they have gone in that search, because a

Page 5348

1 number of questions that we wanted to ask of this witness will simply not

2 be -- it will simply not be possible to ask them because we have been

3 prevented. I mean, we practically have been prevented from using this

4 possibility. And I should like to hear Mr. Stamp to tell us how things

5 stand in respect of this issue so as to give us a general idea of that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is there any new information, because we

7 discussed the matter a couple of times over the last few days?

8 MR. STAMP: Yes, we have discussed it quite a few times over the

9 last few days, and it was indicated that the Prosecution would give some

10 response in respect to that matter and the matter of the orders, or to

11 give whatever additional information that we have. Could we do so after

12 the next break? We are still trying to get whatever information we can

13 put together in a comprehensive package. And one of the sources of that

14 information would only be available this morning.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think at this moment, especially the

16 shrapnel, the -- well, the search for the present location of the shrapnel

17 that is --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. That

19 is in relation to Rule 96(ii)(A). The Defence is not in a position to

20 determine its stand because we do not dispose of these very important

21 elements, this very important evidence. If this issue continues, I think

22 it will be to the detriment of General Galic.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to 96(ii)(A) but --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. No. I

25 said 90(H)(ii).

Page 5349

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any additional information, just about

2 the shrapnel, Mr. Stamp?

3 MR. STAMP: We have not been able to locate the shrapnel.


5 MR. STAMP: We have done everything we can to obtain whatever

6 artifacts which remain or which were collected. The evidence before the

7 Court is that many of these things were lost or possibly thrown out over

8 the years when the building moved, or when changes were made. We have

9 made requests; we have repeated these requests. We have sent missions.

10 We have asked for searches, and we have obtained what we can. We continue

11 to make requests, and we continue to try to locate whatever artifacts we

12 can.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Where there any new initiatives during the last few

14 days?

15 MR. STAMP: Yes, but I would ask if --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Without results. So at this very moment --

17 MR. STAMP: Yes, without results.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as I indicated before, the

19 Defence, of course, also could try to locate the shrapnel. What

20 initiatives have been taken by the Defence in that respect?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, following the

22 suggestions made by the Chamber, I stated that I would personally write to

23 the authorities. However, it is not very simple. I'm trying to identify

24 the relevant authority that might help us. Maybe we will use diplomatic

25 channels because it is evident that if a humble lawyer should write

Page 5350

1 directly to the MUP, I don't think he can expect a prompt answer. So I'm

2 trying to explore the best possible ways to approach the issue, to

3 identify the relevant authorities. I will expect some answers next week,

4 but I have to tell you right away that I'm not harbouring too much hope.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for your

6 information.

7 Before I ask the usher to bring the witness into the courtroom,

8 may I urge both parties to use their time as efficiently as possible,

9 because we all know that since preparations have been made for the

10 videolink for next week, that those witnesses waiting here, of course it

11 would be a pity if we would have to send them back and recall them at a

12 later stage. So may I especially at this very moment ask for the utmost

13 efficiency by both parties.

14 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Mr. Sabljica.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sabljica. May I remind you that

17 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you made last Monday.

18 The cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic will now continue. Please

19 proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sabljica.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 5351

1 Q. Yesterday, before we adjourned, we spoke about an incident which

2 you, as a member of a team of the Sarajevo CSB, attended and took part in

3 the conduct of investigating activities. You told us that the shrapnel

4 was collected by Mr. Sead Besic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you personally see the shrapnel in question in the archives of

7 your service, that is, the public Security Services Centre?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you see Mr. Besic take photographs of that shrapnel?

10 A. I saw him taking photographs, and I presume that he was also

11 taking photographs of the shrapnel.

12 Q. When and where was that?

13 A. During the on-site investigation. As we visited the scene, he

14 photographed the traces of the explosion, including the shrapnel that we

15 found on the site.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

17 like to show the witness Document D61. It is a set of photographs of

18 shrapnel.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

20 Mr. Usher, could you assist.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise the photograph?

23 A. Well, frankly speaking, it could be a photograph of any similar

24 case, so I cannot confirm with certainty that this is the shrapnel from

25 Markale market.

Page 5352

1 Q. Were you in a position to see them lined up in this way when your

2 colleague, Mr. Besic, took photographs of them?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire through the Court if the document

5 he is looking at could be put on the ELMO.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please put it on the ELMO.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Sabljica, I should like to ask you to put it on the ELMO so

9 that we can all see it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

11 A. No, I didn't see him arrange the shrapnel in this manner. I saw

12 him taking photographs of the shrapnel on the location while they were

13 still on the market at various locations around the explosion spot. He

14 did this probably later on, so I presume that this photograph was taken

15 somewhere in the offices of the crime laboratory.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether the shrapnel, together with the

17 tail-fin, were ever sent for analysis?

18 A. I don't have any such knowledge, but I know that if the adequate

19 procedure was followed, they must have been sent for analysis.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.

21 Mr. Sabljica, you told us that as a team member of the on-site

22 investigation, you were present when the incident took place on the 4th of

23 February in Dobrinja. Can you tell us, in relation to this incident, in

24 what capacity were you there as a team member?

25 A. I was there in the capacity of a ballistics expert. I was one of

Page 5353

1 the ballistic experts team that was led by the investigative magistrate.

2 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you explained to us that you

3 proceeded to the analysis of site 1 and 2, and that you found some

4 stabilisers. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Your written report, the on-site report, states that on the 4th of

7 February in Dobrinja, two shells hit, and that the calibre of these mortar

8 shells were 120 millimetres. Is this correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you explain to us how is it that an official report contained

11 that -- or states that there were three shells if the analysis was not

12 carried out?

13 A. The investigating magistrate, Mr. Zdenko Eterovic, insisted upon

14 the fact that we should also mention a third shell that we had not

15 analysed and that had hit a religious building that was situated right

16 behind the square. He had gone with the operative to examine the site in

17 question. This is the reason why we stated that fact in the report.

18 Q. Do you consider that it is sufficient to inscribe information that

19 you obtained from a nonprofessional that a shell of 120 millimetres hit?

20 Do you think this information is sufficient to include it in an official

21 report?

22 A. My personal decision is that an omission was made. The judge

23 really insisted.

24 Q. We were able to see on pictures that we examined in Court that

25 right next to the site where the shell fell, that there were some maps

Page 5354

1 placed. Could you tell us who placed those maps around those impact

2 sites?

3 A. The maps were placed by Mr. Zlatko Medjedovic and myself.

4 Q. Can you tell us how did you go about placing these maps? Did you

5 have to do something special? What are the measures that you take in

6 order to place these maps? How do you determine where to place these

7 maps?

8 A. The map has to be placed in the direction of the north, so we have

9 to first establish the north, and then we have to identify the magnetic

10 north with the help of a compass.

11 Q. Is it possible that you can make a mistake when you place the maps

12 in such a way?

13 A. Yes, it is always possible. There's always a difference of a

14 plus/minus 5 degrees.

15 Q. Can you tell us what is the difference in terms of degrees between

16 the north and northeast?

17 A. I did not understand your question.

18 Q. What is the difference in terms of degrees between the difference

19 -- in the difference between the north and northeast? What do you read

20 on the compass when you say that you determined the north?

21 A. On the compass, between the north and the east, the angle that is

22 shown is 90 degrees. So between north and northeast, the difference

23 should be 90 degrees.

24 Q. Can you explain to us, why did you and Mr. Medjedovic, when you

25 were on the site, why did you not determine the angle of descent of the

Page 5355

1 two shells at the spot where you found the stabilisers?

2 A. Because it was never part of our on-site investigation. That was

3 not part of our task to determine from where the shell fell, but only the

4 direction. So we never really had to evaluate the descent angle, the

5 angle of descent.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

7 like to show a set of pictures. It is the Prosecution's Document P2247,

8 and it's pictures that were taken or relate to the incident of the 24th of

9 February, 1994.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Sabljica, those are the two pictures, P11, pictures on which

13 you have placed arrows that show the direction from which the shell fell.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... or

15 Prosecution Exhibit P2247?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the Document P2247A.

17 Q. Mr. Sabljica, please look at picture number 5 first, and then I

18 would like you to examine picture number 11.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just pause one moment.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you refer to 2247. That is a set of

22 photographs. And when asked for a specification whether you'd like to

23 have 2247 or 2247A, you said you'd like to have 2247A, which is a report.

24 I take it that you want to show to the witness 2247, the set of

25 photographs. Yes. Yes, that's an existing exhibit number.

Page 5356

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm terribly sorry.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.

3 Would you please then put the photographs on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.

4 So the photographs that were on the ELMO.

5 And may I ask the booth --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Sabljica, would you please look at picture number 5.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The French interpreters are

9 stating that they no longer have a transcript. So I don't know if they

10 are following the transcript and interpreting from the transcript, but I

11 would like to ask the technical booth to do something. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the transcript channel on our screens

13 gives a "no signal" sign. On our laptops, however, we have a transcript.

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties at this very moment use their

16 laptop transcript, which is the -- the interpreters have no laptops.

17 Perhaps we first wait, because the interpreters also need to have their

18 facilities working.

19 I think we have to have some patience.

20 Yes, I see that on all the screens I can overlook from here, that

21 the transcript is again on our screens, and it shows us that high-tech is

22 beautiful as long as it functions.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Sabljica, please take a look at picture number 5, first.

Page 5357

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you see the east indicated on this picture on the map, and were

3 you able to determine if in that direction you could place the building

4 Energoinvest?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it written under there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you please take a look at picture number 11. We can also

9 see that there is a map placed. There's also a compass and an arrow.

10 Underneath, we can see the following inscription: direction, east

11 northeast. We can also read that in that direction, the building

12 Energoinvest Lukavica is located. Is this correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please tell us the following: If one says that a shell

15 that has 120 millimetre calibre and that it flew from the direction of the

16 north and that the second shell was -- or arrived from the east, we said

17 that there is a certain angle of difference in the angle, and we have

18 established that there's a difference between the east and northeast, so

19 there is a difference in angle between the two. And here, we see that

20 we're talking about the east, east-north, if you will. How were you able

21 to determine in both cases that the shells came from the direction of the

22 Energoinvest building, that the axis was from there?

23 A. The complex of this building Energoinvest was just an orientation

24 point. One shell flew from the east and the other one from the northeast,

25 so there was a certain difference in degrees. And we did not put that

Page 5358

1 down between the north and the east, so their points actually concurred

2 somewhere around the Energoinvest building, and this is what I drew,

3 actually. I made a sketch of this.

4 Q. Would you agree with me to say that the difference between north

5 and northeast, difference in angle, is 45 degrees?

6 A. Yes. It's somewhere between 0 and 45 degrees, so it's one of

7 these angles.

8 Q. Do you consider your conclusion that both shells came from the

9 direction of the Energoinvest building correct?

10 A. I repeat that the Energoinvest building was only considered to be

11 as an orientation point. We only mentioned that building as a

12 supposition. We were never able to determine that the shell was fired

13 from that building.

14 Q. Can you tell us if, based on these facts for which you stated they

15 are erroneous and that they are only orientational points, why is it hat

16 in your reports you wrote down that those shells came from the position of

17 the aggressor?

18 MR. STAMP: May I just ask for clarification of that question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

20 MR. STAMP: Clarification of the question.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be possible to confront the witness

22 with the exact part of his report, or the report.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the report from the

24 forensic department, this is a report dated February 4th, 1994, bearing

25 number 234-94. For this report, it is possible for us to show it to the

Page 5359

1 witness, if you will.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you read the line with which you would like

3 to --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In order to be

5 more efficacious, I will read line: "On the 4th of February, 1994, at

6 11.25, the aggressor fired from their positions in Lukavica and fired

7 three mortar shells of 120 millimetres calibre in the Dobrinja

8 neighbourhood on the street of Oslobodilaca Sarajeva."

9 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you know if this is an official report, and do

10 you know if those three shells, in fact, flew in from the direction of the

11 aggressor? Was this, in fact, an official report? Do you know this?

12 A. It is the first time that I hear of this report. What I wrote in

13 my report is quite different. This is not what I'm stating in my own

14 report, and I can only confirm what I wrote. I do not know who wrote this

15 at all.

16 Q. Mr. Sabljica, thank you.

17 Can you tell us if concerning this incident that took place on the

18 4th of February, 1994, in Dobrinja, do you know if the UNPROFOR was

19 informed?

20 A. I really don't know.

21 Q. Do you know, and can you tell us, if the UNPROFOR members later,

22 after your on-site investigation with the team in question, do you know if

23 they proceeded to do some measurements and if they had received a report

24 regarding this incident?

25 A. I really do not know this, unfortunately.

Page 5360

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Mr. Sabljica, I would like to ask you a few questions relating to

3 an incident that took place on the 22nd of January in Alipasino Polje.

4 Would you be able to tell us when did you arrive on the scene?

5 A. Around 2.00 p.m.

6 Q. Did all the team members arrive at the same time, or did you come

7 there individually at different times?

8 A. I think that the investigating magistrate was about 10 minutes

9 late, so we waited for him.

10 Q. Can you tell us, what were the weather conditions that day? Do

11 you remember?

12 A. I know that there was snow on the ground, but it was not snowing,

13 and I do not know if it was a clear day or it was an overcast day. I

14 really don't remember.

15 Q. When you arrived on the scene, while you were waiting for the

16 investigating judge, did you find or did you see the stabiliser there?

17 A. No. For those two 82 millimetre shells, we did not, except for

18 one shell for which allegedly it was said that it fell on the roof and

19 that has 120 millimetre calibre.

20 Q. Can you tell us, regarding the 82 millimetre shell that you

21 recorded on Cetinjska Street, which has a different name today, it's

22 Goethe Street, do you know how many casualties there were caused by this

23 shell?

24 A. I believe that in the report, we can see that there were five

25 casualties, but that's relating to this second incident that occurred in

Page 5361

1 front of the number 4.

2 Q. So you don't really remember this incident clearly?

3 A. If you would allow me to consult my report, then I would be able

4 to tell you with certainty.

5 Q. Can you tell us and do you know if on Rade Koncara and in that

6 general area, which is known under the name of Alipasino Polje, do you

7 know if there were any military installations around that area or in that

8 area?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you find out perhaps later on that there were some police --

11 some reserve police stations there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You just told us that on Goethe Street number 3, an 82 millimetre

14 shell hit at that spot. Can you tell us and confirm to us if on Klare

15 Zetkin Street number 4, there was also an 82 millimetre shell that fell?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: Perhaps I missed it, perhaps there's some problem with

18 the translation. I don't have it where he said anything about Goethe

19 Street number 3.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think recently -- since there has been a

21 change of names, that at least one of the things that has been said, but

22 I'm not quite sure whether it was Ms. Pilipovic or the witness.

23 MR. STAMP: She said it. That's not evidence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Ms. Pilipovic, would you first seek

25 confirmation whether your interpretation of the new name of the street is

Page 5362

1 true.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you tell us if the street that used to be

4 Cetinjska number 3 is now called Goethe Street?

5 A. Believe me, I really don't know what the new name is.

6 Q. Do you know if the street that used to be called Klare Zetkin is

7 now called Bosanska?

8 A. I really don't know this either. I could not confirm this to

9 you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I think you're perfectly right, it was not

11 the testimony of the witness. But, of course, there could be hardly any

12 confusion if Ms. Pilipovic says that a street with a different name is now

13 called Goethe Street. And if she asks about Goethe Street, then of course

14 I understand that she refers to the street of which the name was given

15 before.

16 So I would say that although you're perfectly right, there would

17 be hardly any misunderstanding possible.

18 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I really

20 didn't want to waste any time, so I didn't really show the map of the city

21 of Sarajevo. But I checked on the map, and I realised that these streets

22 have changed names, and that Klare Zetkin now changed the name to

23 Bosanska, and that Cetinjska Street changed its name to Goethe Street, but

24 I will, for the purposes of this day today or trial today, use the old

25 names.

Page 5363

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do expect that there's no intention whatsoever, and

2 there would be no confusion. But if you use the names of the streets used

3 in the reports as they were at that time, then I think -- but I can

4 imagine when you prepared your cross-examination that you used the other

5 street names. I'd prefer if you used the same names of the streets as the

6 witness did before.

7 MR. STAMP: Very well. I was just suggesting that we could agree

8 upon it. But she also could use the previous names.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think let's continue, because what

10 Ms. Pilipovic thinks is the Goethe Street is the street mentioned by the

11 original name as well.

12 MR. STAMP: I think she really means Gatiova, G-a-t-i-o-v-a, not

13 Goethe.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's Goethe, the German writer. That's

15 how I understood it.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Your Honour, I did

17 say that I was going to use the previous names of streets just to avoid

18 any confusion.

19 Q. Mr. Sabljica, on the 22nd of January, did you carry out an on-site

20 investigation regarding Cetinjska number 3 Street, and did you also go to

21 the site of the Klare Zetkin Street number 4?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you also carry out an on-site investigation for which it was

24 determined that a 120 millimetre shell landed on the Rade Koncara Square?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5364

1 Q. In your report that you read to us yesterday which is, by the way,

2 illegible and which was also signed by the late Borislav Stanko, did you

3 confirm therefore in this report that on that day two 82-millimetre shells

4 landed and that there was also another 120-millimetre shell that was --

5 that fell?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Sabljica, during your on-site investigation which took place

8 on those two sites, in order to determine the direction from which the

9 shell arrived, did you use the same means in order to establish this? And

10 we've talked about these means in length.

11 A. Yes, we always use the same method.

12 Q. Did you also place a town map on the spot which you marked with

13 arrows, and did you have a compass on that occasion as well?

14 A. Yes, we used the usual -- the same procedure.

15 Q. Can you tell us whether you cleared up the impact location during

16 this particular on-site investigation?

17 A. That job is normally done by crime technicians, but I don't

18 remember seeing them do it.

19 Q. When this incident happened, who was the crime technician, or who

20 were crime technicians? If you want to use the name of a protected

21 witness, you should perhaps want to use letter "Q."

22 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues] ... Very well.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Witness Q, you're right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit surprised that a witness would know about

25 exactly the pseudonyms given to other witnesses, but is there any

Page 5365

1 misunderstanding possible? If not, please proceed. But you'll understand

2 that the witness should not be aware of any protective measures taken in

3 respect of other witnesses. But finally, if this satisfies both parties,

4 then it's all right as far as I'm concerned.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

6 witness normally should not know; however, I think that yesterday he was

7 in the courtroom when we referred to this particular witness, so he is

8 aware of the fact that he is a beneficiary of some protective measures.

9 That's why I think he reacted this way.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So we located the source of knowledge for this

11 witness, but I'd like to tell you, Mr,. Sabljica that by misfortune you

12 became aware of the identity of a witness which is called "Q" in this

13 courtroom. You're not allowed under whatever circumstances to give this

14 information to any person outside this courtroom. I just wanted you to

15 know that you're under an obligation to keep this a secret, as it is for

16 everyone in this courtroom. Yes?

17 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Witness, can you now tell us what particular forensic measures or

20 steps were taken by Witness Q, apart from the fact that he took

21 photographs?

22 A. In accordance with the long-established procedure, the crime

23 technician was in charge of preparing the scene for the purposes of

24 carrying out further analysis which is then done by us, ballistics

25 experts. At that moment, I was not supervising him because, after all,

Page 5366

1 he's a well-experienced technician. But I know that he enabled us to

2 carry out our on-site investigation without major difficulties.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

4 like to show the witness at this point Prosecution Exhibit 2172, the set

5 of photographs.

6 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Document Number P2172.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Sabljica, would you first of all look at the photograph number

9 1 on this document, please. Can you confirm for us that the arrow

10 indicates the explosion site in Cetinjska number 3 on this photograph?

11 A. Yes, it does.

12 Q. Can you tell us why on this occasion you did not photograph -- you

13 did not take any photograph at the moment you put the town map and the

14 compass on the site?

15 A. I don't remember the exact explanation, but I remember that the

16 technician took those photographs as well.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a little bit so

18 that we can see the exact location where the shell landed, where the arrow

19 is, please. It's not a very clear picture.

20 Q. Witness, have another look at the photograph, please, and tell us

21 whether you can confirm whether the impact point and the area surrounding

22 it is especially visible, and that it is actually a cleared-up portion of

23 the area? I am referring to the area which surrounds the impact point.

24 A. Do I understand you correctly, do you want to ask me whether this

25 was properly cleaned up?

Page 5367

1 Q. First of all, I want to ask you whether anyone cleaned the site,

2 and is it the usual procedure prior to taking photographs of the impact

3 point?

4 A. Yes, it is the usual procedure.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Would you now have a look at photograph number 2, please. You

7 confirmed that this photograph also depicts the impact point in Cetinjska

8 number 3?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Please have a closer look at the photograph and the direction of

11 the arrow towards the very edge of the photograph and tell us what part of

12 the neighbourhood can be seen on this photograph, that is, the buildings

13 that we can see in the distance. And is it a mountainous, hilly area, and

14 if you know, tell us what area it is precisely?

15 A. I think it is the edge of the Mojmilo neighbourhood.

16 Q. Is it your testimony that the Mojmilo hill is in the same

17 direction?

18 A. That is the very edge, the first slopes of Mojmilo hill.

19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether during that period of

20 time, in 1994, the hill was under the BH army control? Were BH army

21 troops there?

22 A. Yes, that was the front line at the time.

23 Q. How far was the front line? Actually, how far apart those lines

24 were?

25 A. Do you mean between the BH army and VRS?

Page 5368

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No, I don't know that.

3 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you told us that your internship lasted until the

4 end of 1993 and that you didn't have to pass an examination -- that you

5 didn't take a test. Is that the reason why you didn't sign the report of

6 the incident which took place on the 22nd of January? Is that the reason

7 why it was Mr. Stanko who signed the report in question?

8 A. Yes, you're correct.

9 Q. Did you in that capacity at the time have authority to sign

10 records of investigation? When I say "record of investigation," I refer

11 to ballistics records of investigation, or was it the case that more

12 experienced colleagues signed such documents?

13 A. I had the authority to sign the record from the beginning of

14 December 1993. But in this case, this was done by the late Stanko.

15 Q. Who gave you the authority to sign such records? Did you have a

16 written permission, written authority, to sign such records?

17 A. It was the then head of the forensics department who gave me such

18 permission, Mr. Nedzad Zekic.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Mr. Sabljica, can you tell us whether it is important for the

21 purposes of a ballistics analysis to measure the distance between the

22 impact point and the closest buildings?

23 A. Normally, this is always done, but it is for the purposes of doing

24 the reconstruction of the event pursuant to a request made by an

25 investigating magistrate or some other authority. The impact point is

Page 5369

1 always taken with respect to some fixtures, some buildings, or other

2 similar facilities.

3 Q. So are you telling us that it is important for the purposes of a

4 ballistics analysis to measure the distance between the impact point and

5 the closest facilities?

6 A. Well, it has nothing to do with the analysis of the incoming path

7 of the shell. It is in order to satisfy the usual requirements of an

8 investigation report that this is done.

9 Q. I'm referring specifically to the 22nd January incident. Did you

10 take any such measures on this occasion, that is, did you measure the

11 distance between the impact point? We saw that you did so in Cetinjska

12 number 3, but did you also take measurements of the distance between the

13 impact point and the nearest building?

14 A. If you'll allow me to have a look at my report, perhaps I will be

15 able to confirm your question.

16 Q. Yesterday, you read out the report for us. I don't want to have

17 it read once again. I'm referring to the same report.

18 A. Normally, it is the usual procedure that we sort of fix the impact

19 point with respect of a building, but I don't remember that we took any

20 specific measurements.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 In the course of your work in the MUP, that is, the public

23 security centre, did you know that there was a factory for mine production

24 at Alipasino Polje?

25 A. No.

Page 5370

1 Q. Since we were able to confirm from your report that on the 22nd of

2 January two shells landed, two 82-millimetre shells and one 120-millimetre

3 shell, do you know what the report was, the one that was made by the crime

4 technicians in respect of this particular site?

5 A. No, I don't. I haven't read this report.

6 Q. If I put to you the 22nd January report --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would

8 like to tender the report concerning the 22nd of January incident as an

9 exhibit, and we would like to show it at this point to the witness. I

10 will read the relevant portion of the report in respect of which I need an

11 answer. The relevant report has been translated into English.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd -- have you prenumbered the report,

13 Ms. Pilipovic?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. D67.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And the English translation will then be D67.1. Yes.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you tender the document, it could be given

18 to the witness as well.

19 MR. STAMP: May I just comment that --


21 MR. STAMP: If perhaps the Court could ask the witness to be

22 careful not to put the document on the ELMO unless directed because

23 there's a name on it we perhaps don't want --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we perhaps -- I haven't read it yet. Let's

25 start to keep it from the ELMO until we have a ...

Page 5371

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you recognise this document?

3 A. This is the first time I see it.

4 Q. These forms and the method of writing such forensic reports on

5 on-site investigations, are they the same as the ones that your service

6 uses? Is it the same kind of document that you have to fill out after an

7 on-site investigation?

8 A. Yes, and they are filled out by crime technicians or forensic

9 experts.

10 Q. You told us that there was a forensic expert at the scene together

11 with you on that day. After number 4, can we read on this document that

12 on the 22nd of January, and so on and so forth?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Around 13.50, from the direction of Nedzarici west, two mortar

15 shells fell, each of 120 millimetres, in Klare Zetkin number 4, and

16 another one in Cetinjska number 3.

17 A. Yes, that's what the report says.

18 Q. Having in mind the answers that you have so far provided

19 concerning the identification of mine calibres, shell calibres, can you

20 confirm that this report is consistent with what you were able to

21 establish? Let me just remind you that you testified that the shells in

22 question were 82 millimetre shells.

23 A. No, I do not agree. What has been written here by the crime

24 technician is not accurate.

25 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you confirm for us whether it is acceptable for

Page 5372












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5373

1 an investigation team conducting a visit of a crime scene, especially in

2 cases of such serious incidents with grave consequences, to make such

3 arbitrary and unconfirmed reports? Is this an acceptable practice? In

4 particular I'm referring to the fact that there are two different reports

5 here?

6 A. Yes, I can, that is, I can confirm that it is an unacceptable

7 practice.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.

9 Will you please look at photograph number 5 at this point.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Are we still talking about 2172, Ms. Pilipovic?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's the set of photographs, yes.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 2172, yes.

14 Q. You have in front of you, Mr. Sabljica, photograph number 5.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Can you tell us what the distance is between the spot which is

19 marked with an arrow where you established a shell had landed and the

20 nearest entrance of this building? What is the distance between the

21 impact point and the building?

22 A. Approximately 10 metres to this alley, this passage.

23 Q. What about the nearest steps?

24 A. 5 to 6 metres.

25 Q. Is it your testimony that the location at number 4 in Klare Zetkin

Page 5374

1 Street is a location where the shell landed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell us about the effects of this 82 millimetre shell. What were

4 the consequences; that is, how many casualties were there in this

5 particular incident, if you know?

6 A. The report states that five persons were killed in this incident.

7 Q. When did you take photographs of this location? You did so after

8 the incident. You said that you arrived at the scene around 2.00, 2.00

9 p.m., and that the incident took place at around 11.00 a.m. So is it,

10 what, two hours after the incident?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

13 MR. STAMP: Again, I might have missed something. Did the witness

14 say that the incident took place at around 11.00?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please locate the source, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 It's not in my recollection. I'm not saying yes or no.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will check.

18 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you know when, at what time, this incident

19 occurred?

20 A. If you let me look at the report, I can tell you the exact time,

21 but I think it occurred at about 11.00. We can check.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have the relevant

23 record in front of me. I can show it to the witness. However, I cannot

24 see from the record of the on-site investigation that the time is

25 indicated. What we have here is at about 1.15.

Page 5375

1 Q. So is it then 1.15 or 11.00?

2 A. Well, then it must be at 1.00 p.m. and 15 minutes.

3 Q. When did you arrive at the scene?

4 A. An hour later, thereabouts.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is

6 telling me that this would be the convenient time for a break.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 Mr. Stamp, you're on your feet. I thought you would --

9 MR. STAMP: Yes. I would have liked to address the Court on a

10 certain matter. I will do so. As I indicated earlier, I accept Your

11 Honours' order that certain matters should be dealt with between counsel,

12 and we will do so in future. However, something was stated on the record,

13 and I just wish to put on the record that in June 2000, the coloured

14 documents were delivered to Mr. Kostic for the Defence, and he signed for

15 it. Thereafter when counsel, Ms. Pilipovic, became involved, she

16 indicated that she had problems in the transfer of documents. And on the

17 3rd of March, 2001, the coloured copies were delivered to her and she

18 signed for it -- the 1st of March, and they were signed for.

19 Subsequently, the documents, not coloured copies, were again

20 disclosed to the Defence. So coloured copies have been disclosed more

21 than once to the Defence, and we will produce receipts if called upon to

22 do so. I say this just for the record in respect to this. In the future,

23 we hope to communicate with counsel and deal with these matters.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the Chamber hopes that will be done as

25 well. If there is any dispute as to whether documents have been given to

Page 5376

1 the Defence, of course you'll first show each other the receipts, the

2 dates, et cetera. And only if then finally it turns out that any

3 obligation has been neglected by one of the parties, and if this would be

4 of any substantial influence on the trial, then of course this Chamber

5 will be glad to hear about it.

6 Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's indulgence, just

8 a second, Your Honour. The colour documents were received by me, however,

9 not in respect of this incident. I received the documents for the 5th of

10 February and the 22nd of February [sic]. I simply see no reason why I

11 would have stated anything different had I received the document. But I'm

12 sure that I have not received these specific documents.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So the first thing the parties now will do is to see

14 whether the information about the delivery of colour documents was

15 information concerning the same photographs or different photographs. If

16 a serious problem remains, I'll be glad - and I'm sure that my colleagues

17 are also glad - to hear so. If no serious problem remains, we would love

18 not to hear about it any more.

19 We'll have a break until 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. After I read at least part of the

23 correspondence and just very briefly -- I see, Mr. Ierace, you appear in

24 Court. Is there any specific reason? Not that you're not welcome in this

25 courtroom, but I expected that Ms. Pilipovic would resume the

Page 5377

1 cross-examination of the witness.

2 Is there anything you want to bring to the attention of the

3 Chamber?

4 MR. IERACE: On Tuesday morning, Mr. President, I said that this

5 morning, Thursday morning, I would report back briefly in response to the

6 two questions that you posed, namely, whether the Prosecution has

7 disclosed to the Defence all of the orders which we hold of the 1st Corps,

8 and secondly, whether we have disclosed all of the orders which we hold

9 from the main staff to all of the corps including the 1st Corps, that is,

10 orders which apply to all of the corps. The answers to those two

11 questions I can now provide, together with some brief information in

12 relation to the shrapnel.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the shrapnel -- I'm a bit hesitating

14 to do this in the presence of the witness. So I don't know whether you

15 stay with us for the next one hour and a half. If so, I would rather do

16 it then at the end. How much time would it take you, so that perhaps we

17 first continue with the witness, and then do it at the end before the next

18 break. Would that be convenient to you?

19 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President, I could return, say, five

20 or ten minutes before the end of this session.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be approximately -- let's say if you

22 would return at 12.20, approximately. I would rather not interrupt, if

23 not necessary, and send out the witness again. Yes?

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

Page 5378

1 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, who is going to resume the

2 cross-examination of Mr. Sabljica?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is going to be my

4 colleague, Ms. Pilipovic, but I just wanted to reply that yes, we are very

5 agreeable to your suggestion, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, we talked about picture number 5 before the break. Is

9 this picture near you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please take a look at photo number 5. You told us

12 already what the distance was between the place where the shell hit and

13 the entrance or the passage. Could you explain to us the area that

14 surrounds the building that doesn't seem to be damaged from the shell, how

15 do you explain this fact that a shell landed at that site and that it did

16 not damage this particular building that we see on this photograph?

17 A. The building is in the opposite direction of the direction from

18 which the shell arrived, and the shrapnel effect on that side was less

19 important. So I think that from the angle from which the picture is

20 taken, we cannot really see very clearly that there was some damage done

21 to the building that was situated in the direction of this arrow, that is,

22 the opposite side of this one. I believe that the crime scene technician

23 made an omission because he did not take a picture of the facade and the

24 surrounding area surrounding this particular staircase.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.

Page 5379

1 Regarding the question I just asked in relation to the damage,

2 could you please take a look at picture number 1. Can you tell us the

3 effect caused of the shell that fell around this? Can you tell us why is

4 it that there was no damage caused to those cars?

5 A. The picture does not depict very clearly the crater. I cannot

6 really orient myself with respect to the crater. But those cars were

7 damaged previously already.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sabljica, would you be able to tell us if the CSB

9 was under the control of the MUP?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. While you were working at the CSB, did you know if there were some

12 special units within the MUP?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which are those special units for which you know that they

15 existed? Did they have any particular names?

16 A. I know of the special unit of the MUP, the commander of this unit

17 was Mr. Vikic. And I also know that there was a special unit of the CSB

18 called Lasta.

19 Q. Do you know if there were some special units called Seva within

20 the MUP, and those units would be sniping units and special -- there was

21 also a special unit called a Delta within the MUP. Are you aware of the

22 existence of these two units?

23 A. I heard of these two units through the media, but only after the

24 conflict had ended already.

25 Q. Can you tell us, what did you know about the Seva unit? What role

Page 5380

1 did this unit have from what you found out later on?

2 A. It was a special unit, nothing else. I did not read anything more

3 in the Nasi Dani paper. It was a special purposes unit.

4 Q. While you were working at the MUP, were you aware of the fact that

5 on the area of Sarajevo, in the city of Sarajevo that was under the

6 control of BiH, that there were some special prisons, and by this I mean

7 special prisons destined for Serbs?

8 A. I knew that there was a prison in the old Viktor Bubanj barracks,

9 and there were some other -- everybody was actually at that prison.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this ends my

11 cross-examination with regards to this witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I did understand that you divided your

13 cross-examination, so ...

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon or good

20 morning, Witness. I have a few questions for you. I will try to be as

21 brief as possible to save time, of course.

22 You have stated yesterday, Witness, that for a certain period of

23 time, you were an active soldier in the Sarajevo army, the government

24 army, as it was called. Do you confirm this fact?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5381

1 Q. Witness, could you tell us, when were you an active member of the

2 army?

3 A. From the 28th of April, 1992. Up until mid-June 1993.

4 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. So therefore, you were

5 probably -- you had a weapon, and if so, what kind of weapon were you

6 handed?

7 A. It depended on the means that were available on the line.

8 Sometimes it was a hunting rifle. Other times it was a semi-automatic

9 rifle.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please tell us, did you use this weapon or

11 those weapons during the period of time during which you were an active

12 soldier or you were under the banner of this army?

13 A. Yes. Yes. While on the defence line, if we were attacked, we had

14 to respond to the fire.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. You have also stated that

16 there were some exchanges of fire almost every day. May I deduce --

17 deduct from this answer of yours that you frequently had to use your

18 weapons?

19 A. Not that often because it also often happened that while I was on

20 duty, while I was doing my shift, that there were no shootings.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. And against whom were you using those weapons

22 exactly, or this weapon?

23 A. Against the enemy at that time.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you confirm that each time you shot, you

25 were able to target the target? You were able to hit the target?

Page 5382

1 A. No, I could not confirm this. It is quite impossible.

2 Q. Thank you for this answer. Witness, as a ballistics expert, can

3 you tell us if that is the case that the ricochet phenomenon could occur,

4 theoretically?

5 A. Yes, of course.

6 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. Witness, it is, therefore,

7 absolutely possible that some lost bullets, stray bullets, could have been

8 shot by you?

9 A. It is absolutely possible.

10 Q. Thank you very much for this answer, Witness. And tell me if I'm

11 mistaken, it is also possible that such a stray bullet could have hit

12 people or persons that you were not particularly targeting?

13 A. That possibility always existed, but we were always on the lines

14 that were confronting the army and not anybody else.

15 Q. Thank you for this answer. I do thank you for this answer.

16 Witness, are you familiar with the factory called Zrak?

17 A. Yes, I know where that is.

18 Q. Witness, could you please tell us if you know, first of all, where

19 was this factory situated, and what it was producing?

20 A. Well, it is still there where it was at that time. It's Buca

21 Potok, and it was for the military purposes, used for military purposes in

22 the former Yugoslavia.

23 Q. Thank you. To be more precise, this factory produced products for

24 the military industry. Could you tell us what type, what was the

25 specialisation? This factory specialised in what precisely, if you can

Page 5383

1 tell us, please?

2 A. I believe it was optical devices that was serving the purposes of

3 the JNA, the former JNA, optical sights.

4 Q. Witness, you say that those products, that it was used for the JNA

5 army, whatever they were producing. Was it only used for the JNA? Were

6 they producing only for the JNA?

7 A. I really do not know what their policy was, but in the former

8 Yugoslavia, they were only making products for the former JNA.

9 Q. Thank you. I see, former Yugoslavia, yes. Mr. Witness, as of the

10 month of April 1992, who had the control of that factory, what party, what

11 belligerent party?

12 A. It was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness. In the month of April 1992,

14 the factory, was it still operational?

15 A. I believe that it was.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. What happened in the following month?

17 A. I really don't know.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, this factory, was it not making targeting

19 implements destined to be placed on barrel of -- rifle barrels?

20 A. I believe that they had that programme. They were producing --

21 they were making those implements, so these optical devices that you would

22 place on a sniping rifle.

23 Q. Thank you. I now heard exactly what I had not understood clearly

24 earlier. So we are talking about rifles with sights, and that could

25 always be used, of course, by snipers?

Page 5384

1 A. Yes. This was part of their production programme for the former

2 JNA.

3 Q. Mr. Witness, you just told us that in April of 1992, the factory

4 was still operational. Do you know what happened with the stocks produced

5 by this factory?

6 A. I really don't know. You would have to ask somebody who was

7 actually working at the factory.

8 Q. Well, we will try to find somebody who worked at the factory.

9 Thank you very much, Witness, for this suggestion.

10 Now, do you know if units, sniping units that existed in Sarajevo

11 on the side of the so-called government army, had those devices, those

12 optical targeting devices?

13 A. I really do not know.

14 Q. I believe you, Witness. I really do.

15 However, do you know, Witness, if those isolated units, sniping

16 units, were they within a military structure? And I am talking about the

17 so-called government army.

18 A. I really don't know this either.

19 Q. Witness, thank you very much for this answer.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is there a problem, Mr.

21 President?

22 JUDGE ORIE: I heard you thanking the witness for the question,

23 and I saw on the screen that it was translated as --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really do thank. I have a

25 two-fold thanks to say to all the interpreters. I did not commit a lapsus

Page 5385

1 calami but a lapsus linguae. I just made a simple mistake in

2 pronunciation. Thank you very much for correcting me to all.

3 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness. Later I will ask you more

4 questions with respect to the time while you were a soldier. But I would

5 now like to go on to -- pass on to another element of this

6 cross-examination. I would like to talk about the document that you

7 deciphered yesterday with a great deal of difficulty. It was the document

8 that comprised two pages, and you will remember that this Chamber did not

9 retain one portion of a paragraph because it was not legible. I believe

10 that you remember this document. Is that the case?

11 A. Yes, absolutely.

12 Q. If this answer -- thank you for this answer, Witness. Now, first

13 question: Do you speak or do you read the English language?

14 A. Yes, very well.

15 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. Witness, did you ever get

16 the chance before reading this document in Serbian to see or to hear from

17 whatever source the English translation of this report that was made by

18 the OTP?

19 A. No, I did not see the translation for that report.

20 Q. Witness, before hearing -- before actually reading the second page

21 of this report, have you had a meeting with the representatives of the

22 OTP?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And during that meeting, is it possible that they have

25 in some way refreshed your memory as to the contents of this document?

Page 5386

1 A. Yes, they did hand me a copy of this document to read.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm just checking something on

4 the transcript, Mr. President, because my question was, was it possible

5 that the document had refreshed your memory? And your response was "yes."

6 Q. Therefore, am I correct in saying, Witness, that when you

7 deciphered -- when you managed to make out this document with certain

8 difficulty, the Defence had already refreshed your memory?

9 A. The translation that I just received is that the Defence had

10 refreshed my memory. Is that the question that you asked?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken, in which

12 case I apologise. But I was, of course, referring to the Prosecution.

13 A. Yes, it refreshed my memory.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this seems to

16 be my second slip, but I was saying this for the benefit of the Chamber

17 because I wanted to make sure that the reading of the document took place

18 only after witness's memory had been refreshed. I think he's having

19 problems with his screen.

20 If I may consult with my colleague for a second, please.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'd like to put a question to the

Page 5387

1 witness in view of the last observation you made.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, of course.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, you have testified that the Prosecution

4 refreshed your memory, and you have testified that you received, as far as

5 I understand, in the original Serbian version the document. When you said

6 that your memory was refreshed, did you mean to say that it was refreshed

7 by receiving and rereading the document or by anything more, such as

8 discussing the document with members of the investigation or Prosecution

9 team? Could you explain to us what you understand by your memory

10 being "refreshed"?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said in order to refresh my

12 memory, I meant in order to remember the details concerning the impact

13 site, members of the team, and similar information. Because after all,

14 this took place six years ago.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what I'd like to know is whether the

16 refreshment of your memory was limited by receiving and reading the

17 document, or that there was any further discussion on the content of the

18 document with any person.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was simply given the text in

20 the Bosnian language to read.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for saying "Serbian language." You

22 correct me and say it's the Bosnian language. We usually says "B/C/S,"

23 which is Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Concerning this issue, Mr.

Page 5388

1 President - this is just a digression - personally, I do not appreciate

2 the usage of the term B/C/S. It doesn't mean much. I know it is simple

3 and convenient, but it doesn't really reflect the reality. It's a

4 neologism.

5 Q. Speaking of the refreshing of your memory, Witness, can you tell

6 us where exactly it took place? Where was it, in which office, that your

7 memory was refreshed in this manner?

8 A. It happened during my last preparations here in The Hague.

9 Q. Witness, are we talking about the day of yesterday, that is, prior

10 to your being asked questions about this particular exhibit?

11 A. No. I meant last week, when I arrived here upon invitation.

12 Q. Yes, but Witness, which language did you speak with the

13 representatives of the OTP?

14 A. English.

15 Q. You spoke in English directly, without the assistance of an

16 interpreter?

17 A. The interpreter was present, but I didn't need his or her

18 services.

19 Q. Thank you very much. After you had refreshed your memory

20 concerning this incident with the representatives of the OTP, did they

21 speak about the contents of the report with you in English?

22 A. No. I simply read the document, and that was it. There was no

23 further discussion about the document.

24 Q. Thank you. Let me now move on to a different subject of a more

25 technical nature which concerns specifically the shelling of the Markale

Page 5389

1 market.

2 Witness, you testified yesterday at one point that the crater

3 which was caused by the fall of the stabiliser, that is, the tunnel caused

4 by the tail-fin, was some 9 centimetres long. Do you remember that

5 testimony?

6 A. It was not 9 centimetres in diameter, but the length of the tunnel

7 was 9 centimetres, together with the part of the tail-fin which was

8 embedded in the surface and the one that was sticking out that could be

9 seen.

10 Q. I have to look at the transcript also, but what do you mean when

11 you say damaged surface? What do you have in mind?

12 A. I am referring to the asphalt surface of the portion of the ground

13 hit by the shell.

14 Q. If I understand you correctly, Witness, you're telling us that

15 from the asphalt to the bottom of the crater, the distance is

16 approximately 9 centimetres, that is, that the depth was approximately 9

17 centimetres?

18 A. Yes, the depth was about 9 centimetres approximately, but the

19 tail-fin was still inside the crater when we did our measurements.

20 Q. So what was in total the depth of the crater?

21 A. I didn't take any measurements after the tail-fin had been

22 extracted.

23 Q. Are you telling me that you did not take any measurements of the

24 lower portion of the crater? Am I correct?

25 A. When the UNPROFOR members took it out, took the tail-fin out, we

Page 5390

1 did not take any measurements of the depth of the crater.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for clarity

3 sake, we could perhaps give the witness a blank piece of paper so that he

4 can explain to us the situation more easily, with your permission, of

5 course. Thank you. And with the kind assistance of the usher.

6 Q. Witness, you have a piece of blank paper in front of you. Could

7 you draw the diagram on the ELMO so that we can all see what you're

8 doing. We can switch to the appropriate channel in order to be able to

9 follow you.

10 Witness, let me allow you to give you some instructions. I think

11 that you drew a horizontal line that represents the surface of the

12 location. Are you going to give us a cross-section of the spot?

13 Very well, thank you. So we are talking about a cross-section of

14 the location. Will you please now draw for us the crater which was 9

15 centimetres deep. Can we have a cross-section of such a crater?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Very well. Let me now ask you to do the following: I will look

18 at the other screen so as to be able to follow you. On the horizontal

19 line that you have just drawn, to the right of the horizontal line, would

20 you please write letters "TN," which in French stands for "terrain

21 naturel," which is a term used in architecture, that is, the natural

22 ground.

23 Since you are a technician by profession, will you please use the

24 usual symbols, that is, the beginning of the measurement and the end of

25 the -- just a second, please. Just a second, please. Thank you.

Page 5391

1 On the left side of the diagram, that is, to the left of the

2 centre of your diagram, will you please use the usual technical indication

3 marks to indicate the measurements.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. We are talking about centimetres, right?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Will you please indicate that next to the number.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My thanks to the

11 interpreters.

12 Mr. President, I don't know whether this document is going to be

13 tendered, whether we will tender it, or if you prefer that I describe it

14 for the record. We can always tender it later on.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you will tender it, of

16 course it gets a number, D number, and otherwise, how would you like me --

17 is there any necessity of describing it? Otherwise, if it's not

18 tendered, perhaps it could be marked identification. But I don't exactly

19 understand what you asked me, I'm afraid.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if there's an

21 objection from the Prosecution concerning the tendering of this document,

22 then I will describe it for the record. If as early as now we can agree

23 that the document will be admitted into evidence, then there's no need for

24 me to describe it for the record.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's clear enough for the record that the

Page 5392

1 witness is making, upon your instructions, sketches on a clean piece of

2 paper. But that's already in the transcript. So please proceed. I

3 didn't hear any objections until now.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Q. Witness, will you please try to do the same once again, that is,

6 to indicate the same technical symbols underneath the artifact? To the

7 left, yes.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you. Very well. Thank you.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, having drawn a

11 cross-section of an artifact embedded in the ground, the witness has

12 indicated, to the left of the line, the distance of 9 centimetres, which

13 would indicate the superior portion of the crater, and the second one

14 which also goes to the left but bears no specific markings. The second

15 portion of the crater was never measured.

16 Q. Was that the case, Witness?

17 A. No, we didn't measure that portion. I think that it was Mr. Berko

18 Zecevic who took such measurements later on.

19 Q. Are you sure that Mr. Zecevic proceeded to that exercise, to your

20 knowledge?

21 A. No, I'm not a hundred per cent sure.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 Still along the same lines with respect to the Markale market

24 incident --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we can perhaps

Page 5393

1 move the diagram from the ELMO, but we can indicate with an interrogation

2 mark the other side of the sketch because we are not aware of the

3 measurements. So I will ask the witness to mark the lower part of the

4 drawing with an interrogation mark.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. To go back to the Markale market

7 incident, another incident as well, but in particular to the Markale

8 market incident, how did you establish technical measurements with respect

9 to the topography, that is, what did you do in order to determine a point

10 of impact with respect of some fixture like a wall or a building in the

11 immediate vicinity?

12 A. With the measurement tape which is part of the normal

13 investigation kit.

14 Q. Witness, was that the only technique which was used by all

15 investigation teams, to your knowledge?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Including UNPROFOR personnel?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, what is the error of margin - we have seen that there was

20 a 5 degree margin of error in one such case - in cases of this method?

21 A. Plus or minus 5 centimetres.

22 Q. Thank you very much for your answer.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this point,

24 I should like to show this witness a document. It is D68. We will

25 check ...

Page 5394

1 MR. STAMP: I was just wondering about the record or the

2 transcript I have here, the answer to the last question, plus or minus 5

3 centimetres. I'm wondering if perhaps we could check the translation.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's useful to check it, because the answer

5 in the French version was a bit different. It was something, but it's

6 just my recollection, plus or minus 5 degrees, but then in centimetres.

7 So I heard the word "centimetres" in French, but also "degree." So

8 perhaps we'll have to check that, or perhaps ask for a clarification to

9 the witness right away. If you could please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It may have been a slip

11 not made by the Defence.

12 Q. Witness, I have to ask you to rephrase your answer, or rather to

13 repeat your answer. Didn't you say plus or minus 5 centimetres?

14 A. That is correct, because we're talking about the distance between

15 the crater and the familiar objects in the vicinity which is measured with

16 a measuring tape, and it is expressed in centimetres.

17 Q. So we are talking about the same figure, Witness. Thank you very

18 much for this clarification.

19 Do you remember, Mr. Sabljica, in your report, what the distance

20 was between the impact point and the wall which was closest to it, to the

21 impact point?

22 A. The closest object was the nearby shop which was located at a

23 distance of 4 metres and 16 centimetres.

24 Q. You really have a technician's memory. These are indeed the

25 numbers that we heard yesterday. And now I'm going to show you a document

Page 5395

1 who, according to our new stamp, is D68.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can this document please be

3 submitted to the witness.

4 Let us perhaps wait a moment before we show the document to the

5 witness. Mr. President, there seems to be a problem or ... ?

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... to avoid

7 whatever misunderstanding that perhaps the witness already awaiting,

8 whether you'll tender the document or not, already put his initials on the

9 document. Otherwise someone might think that it was drawn by Mr. TN.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's my omission,

12 Mr. President. Mr. Terra Naturale is, of course, not present. My

13 apologise.

14 Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please ask the witness to -- it's already on

16 the -- I see that the initials are on the bottom right-hand corner.

17 Yes, please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, if, however, an error in the positioning of the point of

21 impact was committed, would that logically speaking have consequences on

22 any relevant conclusion contained in the ballistics report?

23 A. Since the margin of error is very low, plus or minus 5

24 centimetres, I don't think that it would have seriously affected the

25 findings.

Page 5396

1 Q. Witness, if, however, this margin of error was significantly

2 higher, is it possible that the results of the investigation would have

3 been significantly different?

4 A. If we are talking about metres, then yes, such a mistake would

5 have significantly affected the conclusions.

6 Q. Witness, to your knowledge and to the best of your recollection,

7 what was the distance which was measured by your team or yourself between

8 a point of impact and the building which is referred to as the 22nd

9 December building?

10 A. I believe the distance was 11.6 metres, that is 11 metres and 60

11 centimetres.

12 Q. Yes, indeed. These figures are on the exhibits that have been

13 submitted.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should now like to have the

15 witness shown D68.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... D69.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you would like to show a document to the witness

20 which would be D68. And I think for that reason, Madam Registrar gave the

21 sketch already D69. So that's what I understood.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, I'm sorry,

24 but there seems to be a confusion. The exhibit which we intend to produce

25 now, it's a new exhibit. It's a diagram but not a diagram made by the

Page 5397

1 witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as indicated before, that would be D68. And for

3 that reason, the registrar gave the sketch just drawn by the witness D69

4 in order to avoid whatever confusion.

5 So Mr. Usher, would you then --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right,

7 Mr. President. We will renumber our document now.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any reason? Did it have anything --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Actually,

10 we have pre-marked other exhibits with D68, so we will continue the same

11 numbers, or maybe the registrar could assign D69 to this diagram so that

12 the documents that we have pre-marked are not altered.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you just now would hand over the document that you

14 would like to show the witness to the usher, then we will see how it is

15 pre-marked and we will find a solution.

16 Mr. Usher.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much in

18 advance. For the record, Mr. President, let me indicate that this diagram

19 bears an ERN number, 0026-409, and that it has been disclosed by the

20 Prosecution. It is actually an investigation record compiled by I don't

21 know whom. But it is a work product by UNPROFOR, D68.

22 Q. Witness, do you have in front of you the document which we see on

23 the ELMO?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Witness, do you see somewhere to the right side of the place which

Page 5398

1 is represented by a very large square?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Will you please read the numbers concerning the large shop which

4 are expressed in metres on this document. The first one which indicates

5 the big shop on the left-hand side.

6 A. 6 metres.

7 Q. Will you please remind us what your measurements were regarding

8 this impact site?

9 A. 4.16 metres.

10 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. As for the other side, that is, the

11 facade of the 22nd December building, that is the large building, for the

12 record, which we can see on the right-hand side of the picture and which

13 is higher than the one in front of it, what is the distance that you can

14 see on this diagram?

15 A. 8 metres.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. What was the distance that you

17 indicated in your report?

18 A. 11.60.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, what is the height of the building

20 that you can see here on the diagram, that is, the 22nd December building?

21 A. According to this diagram, 20 metres.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. A moment ago, you told us that if

23 the margin of error was expressed in metres, that that would affect the

24 findings of your investigation. Can you confirm that once again?

25 A. Yes, I can. I do confirm that.

Page 5399

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further question

2 with respect to this document. This document can be removed. The witness

3 is not the author of this diagram. Unless you have any questions, Mr.

4 President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one question. Perhaps we could put this

6 diagram again, that's D68, on the ELMO.

7 You asked, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, "Will you please read the numbers

8 concerning the large shop which are expressed in metres on this document,

9 the first one which indicates the high shop on the left-hand side." And

10 then the witness's answer was "6 metres." Then your next question

11 was: "Will you please remind us what your measurements were regarding this

12 impact site?" Which is not a very precise question. And you, Mr.

13 Sabljica, you answered, "4 metres, 16 centimetres."

14 It is my recollection that the distance of 4 metres, 16

15 centimetres, was the distance from the impact up to the shop building.

16 Were you referring to that distance when you answered the question of

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: When you were reading the indication on this

20 indicating 6 metres, was that the distance between the impact and the

21 building or is it the height of the building?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the distance between the

23 impact point and the building, as we can see here on this diagram.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that is not the left part of the shop

25 building but the right part of the shop building. Is that true? Because

Page 5400

1 the question referred to the left part of the building, which also

2 indicates -- yes, we have now ...

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm terribly

4 sorry. I do apologise. I believe what I said in French is the following:

5 The left side of the buildings that are shown. With respect to the right

6 side, which is the 22nd December building, this is what I meant. That's

7 what I meant when I said "the left side of the buildings." In the

8 diagram, in fact, that we're talking about, it's on the right-hand side of

9 the building situated to the left.

10 Do we agree on this?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has become quite clear to me now. You have

12 seen, perhaps, that the left part of the building, there is also an

13 indication of 6 metres, but that's different. So you are talking about

14 the left building, but the right-hand side, the distance. It's clear to

15 me. Thank you for assisting me in better comprehension of the testimony

16 of the witness.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with pleasure

19 will I proceed, but I need the authorisation of interpreters, because I'm

20 in some way between their kind hands. We do not have any transcript --

21 but I can see it did come back. I have just been told that the transcript

22 came back. May I know if the transcript is back in all the booths?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, for the English transcript.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I will then go on.

25 Q. Witness, thank you for answering these questions. You have told

Page 5401

1 us a moment ago that your memory was refreshed in sorts. I will now

2 submit to you a document, and I would like you to tell us if the two first

3 pages of the said document were either written by yourself or, according

4 to the instructions that you had given to someone, by someone else. I

5 believe this is document D70. And Mr. Witness, I would like you to look

6 at the first two pages only of this document.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we have

8 placed these pages in the right order - we hope that we have stapled them

9 in the right order - it will not be possible to have the whole document on

10 the screen. So we will have to proceed step by step.

11 Mr. Usher, would you be kind enough to place the first page of

12 this document on the screen, the first page bearing the marking D70. Thank

13 you.

14 Q. And at the same time, as we are looking at this document,

15 Mr. Witness, would you please take the second page, place it on the ELMO

16 for just a few seconds, and then we will go back to the first page.

17 Very well. We now see that it is the second page following the

18 first page. It's a complementary page, and I would like you to go back to

19 the first page. [In English] And put it on the ELMO, thanks.

20 [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Witness, would you please tell us if you recognise this document,

22 or do you know of the existence of this document?

23 A. No, I see this document for the first time.

24 Q. This document was never shown to you at any point in time during

25 no expertise?

Page 5402

1 A. [No audible response]

2 Q. I see. So Witness, do you see before you on this first page a

3 sketch representing on the right-hand side the building bearing the name

4 22nd of December, but we can only read the last word, "December," and that

5 to the left, do you see the second building closing off that square? In

6 other words, is this a sketch, or is this a diagram of the Markale square?

7 A. This seems to resemble the diagram of the Markale market.

8 Q. Thank you for this answer. Would you please focus on the very

9 small squares that we see at the centre of the picture. That is, on the

10 space of the square itself, do you see those square boxes -- those

11 rectangular boxes?

12 A. Yes, I do see them.

13 Q. Witness, tell us if you can, according to your knowledge of the

14 scene, what would those small rectangles represent, aligned in such a

15 fashion?

16 A. The stalls of the market.

17 Q. Witness, according to your memory, the way the stalls are

18 represented here, does this correspond to reality, the reality such as it

19 was then on that market?

20 A. Yes, it seems to be represented in a very faithful fashion.

21 Q. Thank you very much for this answer.

22 Witness, can you tell us if every time we see a line or a row, do

23 you mean that this is the row of stalls, the way they were at the time?

24 They were all close together, in twos?

25 A. I believe that this was the case, yes.

Page 5403












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5404

1 Q. Witness, thank you very much. Would you be kind enough as to

2 count for us the number of rows that we can see on this square? Would you

3 please do it on the screen so that I can follow you as well.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is counting.

5 A. There are 18 rows.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

9 transcript, I must say that we are talking about the second and the first

10 page, so now I would like -- this document is comprised of two pages. So

11 I would like the usher to put page number 2 on the ELMO. Please go back

12 to page number 2 so that we can see the extension of this first page.

13 We can see the ERN number, 0026-8362 on this page. This is

14 therefore the second page following the first page. The first page bears

15 an illegible ERN number, but this is a document which goes together.

16 Q. So Witness, could you please tell us what does this word mean?

17 There is a word at the centre of this picture, to the right.

18 A. Shop. Samo Posluga.

19 Q. Witness, we are talking about the supermarket that we have seen

20 earlier on the previous diagram. Is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please confirm to us so that we are totally

23 clear, that the arrow that is showing "S" means the north, or does "S"

24 stand for "sjever," north?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5405

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

2 much. I did this because with this document we have annexed a third page.

3 It is a page that we have also received from the Prosecution. It may be

4 seen the other way around. It's not really very important, but this is

5 the document bearing the number 0026-8326. And I would like to ask the

6 witness at this point to be so kind enough as to count the rows, the

7 stalls, the stall rows that he sees on the square.

8 Q. Witness, could you tell us how many stall rows were you able to

9 count on this square?

10 A. Seven horizontal and one vertical, if we look at this picture from

11 the position which I am in.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Witness, could you just please tell us if this is a diagram

14 depicting the Markale square and where is, therefore, the Marsal Tito

15 Street with respect to this square? Would you please show it to us?

16 To your right?

17 A. This is a diagram, yes. And this is Marsal Tito Street.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the

20 witness showed with the pointer the horizontal lines that were located

21 above the number ERN, and these lines close off the square.

22 Thank you very much, Witness. I will not need this document any

23 more. But for the transcript, Mr. President, I would just like to

24 indicate that this was a document that was already submitted to your

25 Chamber. While we heard the previous witness -- I will not mention the

Page 5406

1 previous witness's name. It's for discretionary reasons, of course, but

2 you will know who this witness was, I'm sure.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please, now we are going to show you a

4 videoclip. I have two cassettes in my possession. And I would like you,

5 Witness, now more than ever to ask the kind assistance of the

6 interpreters. Why, because the cassette that we are going to see, the

7 videoclip, is in the Serbian language. I think it is quite difficult to

8 hear the conversations. But I do thank the interpreters in advance. I

9 know that their ear is very sharp, and I would kindly ask them to

10 concentrate and focus on each word, and this is why I'm going to ask them

11 to do the interpretation.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will hand now these

13 videocassettes to the usher.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters wish to point out

15 that we do not do any interpretation of videotape without transcript as a

16 matter of principle.

17 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]

20 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I don't know whether you want to respond

23 to the request of Mr. Piletta-Zanin or whether there's anything else.

24 MR. STAMP: Two things: As a matter of practice, what we heard

25 from the interpreters' booth, to my understanding, is correct. A

Page 5407

1 transcript ought to be provided if we're going to refer to words on a

2 tape. Second matter of practice, if a video and audiotape is going to be

3 shown, it is normally given to the other side to examine before it is

4 brought to Court.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the

6 videotape that you're going to play one that comes from the Prosecution?

7 So it is a replay of what we have seen before, or is it a ... ?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, last time we

9 had this confusion, but unless I'm mistaken, this videocassette was

10 provided to us by the Prosecution. I asked the case manager to give me a

11 clearer copy. She was not able to do so unfortunately, so we've only

12 copied some clips. We didn't want to waste any time by showing the whole

13 videoclip that we have seen already. But these are excerpts from the

14 V000-3274, copy number 4, video.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me be very practical at this very moment,

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. First of all, the interpreters are not able to

17 translate any text spoken on a videotape if not -- if there's no

18 transcript made available to them of what has been said. That would go

19 beyond what they are supposed to do as interpreters, and that's what they

20 object to.

21 So if you would like to have parts of what has been said on a

22 videotape be translated, you first have to provide the booth with a

23 transcript. That's number 1.

24 Number 2, I do understand that you made a new, as one would say in

25 French, perhaps collage of parts that we have seen before. I think it

Page 5408

1 will be fair -- you are nodding no. Please explain, if it's not a new

2 compilation of videopictures we saw before, what exactly what it is.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no. Well, we

4 have a problem -- two problems. The first one is resolved. Now, with

5 your permission, we will see this videocassette and we will ask the

6 witness to tell us what is it that he heard. He will then be able to say

7 it out loud if he heard in his own language. And then if we have heard

8 it, I suppose that the witness can hear it, and then the interpreters may

9 interpret what the witness had said. I think that this clarifies this

10 point.

11 Now, the second thing, the excerpt in question was not seen -- the

12 Chamber has not seen this excerpt. We have received many cassettes,

13 videocassettes. This one is one of them. This is not a collage. This is

14 not an edited version, it's an excerpt, but it has not been seen by the

15 Chamber yet.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps since we'll have a break anyhow, and since I

17 expect Mr. Ierace to be in the Court, I thought at 20 minutes past 12.00,

18 so that before the next break we would have 10 minutes to explain to the

19 Court what he had -- what he wished to explain to the Court, then I would

20 suggest that during the break the Prosecution first views, if possible,

21 this tape so that they can see whether they recognise it, whether they

22 know what it is, and then see whether there's any objection against

23 playing it.

24 But is there any information as far as Mr. Ierace is concerned?

25 Because I would have expected him to be here five minutes ago.

Page 5409

1 MR. STAMP: Yes, I would imagine that he's on his way, but I have

2 no new information to advise the Court on.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Ierace wanted to give his information.

4 I would say let's just save the tape for after the break, and let's see

5 what communication in 20 minutes could do. I know it's not a use of the

6 break which everyone would prefer, but nevertheless let's see whether we

7 can solve the problem during the break.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one short

9 comment. Very well, but I would not like to be placed in a situation

10 where, since I said yesterday that unfortunately I will not be able to be

11 here tomorrow, and this is the reason why Mr. Ierace wanted to make his

12 comment today, I didn't want the Defence to be handicapped in the

13 presentation of its case. I mean, unfortunately, Mr. Ierace is late, and

14 I did not want the Defence to suffer from this, because we are not

15 responsible for the occurrence of this.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll take care the Defence will not suffer.

17 Mr. Ierace, we have all been waiting for you. Seeing you enter

18 the courtroom is a great pleasure for all of us.

19 Mr. Sabljica, your cross-examination will be resumed after the

20 break, but we'll first hear, for five or ten minutes, other things. So

21 could the booth please take care that Mr. Sabljica is not on the picture

22 when he's escorted out of the courtroom. Yes, please.

23 Mr. Ierace, could you be as brief as possible. As you know, we

24 usually have the break at half past 12.00, and we only have three minutes

25 left.

Page 5410

1 MR. IERACE: I apologise for that, Mr. President. In relation to

2 the orders, in particular the specific questions that you posed on

3 Tuesday, we may have documents in our possession which fall under those

4 two categories, in part because various parts of the OTP are constantly

5 receiving material. The search that will take place on the 25th of March

6 will cover most of that material, and by early April we will be able to

7 inform the Defence of any further relevant material that we have by way of

8 orders that come under those two descriptions that you gave on Tuesday.

9 Last night, at 20 to 11.00, the Defence faxed to the Prosecution a

10 further request for orders and documentation of the army of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina. This request included documentation that refers to the

12 formation of that army, and the acting and planning of military actions of

13 the general staff of the army. Mr. President, I do not intend to disclose

14 material that we have, if any, in relation to the formation of the army

15 because it is not within Rule 66 of the Tribunal. In other words, it's

16 not, as far as I can see, material to the Defence. But I wish to make

17 this more fundamental point: I informed the Trial Chamber that there was

18 a mission to the -- which gave us access to the archives of the army early

19 last year. And that yielded many hundreds of documents, all of which have

20 been disclosed to the Defence in the form of an index, and the Defence

21 were invited to nominate which documents they wanted, and they were

22 provided.

23 Mr. President, that archive consisted of hundreds of thousands of

24 documents which related to the 1st Corps. The mission confined itself to

25 documents which related to the particular brigades in the areas of the

Page 5411

1 scheduled incidents. That alone took six staff members of the OTP ten

2 days. Any exculpatory material which was found during that search was

3 included in the index provided to the Defence. So it is physically

4 impossible for the Prosecution to go back and search through hundreds of

5 thousands of documents and to make those indeed available to the Defence,

6 which is the terms of its present request. That is not the job of the

7 Prosecution. The Defence can make its own approach if it thinks it

8 appropriate to the relevant authorities and seek access to those

9 archives. So Mr. President, in short, in order to -- for the OTP to be

10 satisfied that no further documents have come into its possession which

11 are material to the Defence, we are undertaking a further search, and

12 we'll have the results of that by early April.

13 In relation to the shrapnel, I understand my friend raised that

14 issue again this morning. On Tuesday, I said I would report back next

15 week, but I can do so now. A written request was made by the OTP on the

16 28th of August of last year for the shrapnel in relation to the Markale

17 incident on the 5th of February, 1994. We were advised by the relevant

18 authorities that they no longer had the shrapnel. There is nothing more

19 that we can do to locate the shrapnel. We have approached the relevant

20 authorities; they no longer have it. And as far as the OTP is concerned,

21 that is the end of the matter in terms of searching for those pieces.

22 The reason the approach was made then was this: It followed on

23 some earlier approaches made mid-last year, and that was in pursuance of a

24 general policy that artifacts remain within the possession of the Bosnian

25 government authorities until such time as they are required for the

Page 5412

1 trial. Given the trial timetable, we thought it appropriate in mid-2001

2 to secure the relevant artifacts.

3 Mr. President, the only other issue that I would seek to raise

4 very briefly is Robert Donia. I notice that the Defence has filed some

5 material this morning in relation to experts saying that they speak 20

6 days' notice before the calling of experts. The Defence -- the

7 Prosecution, rather, proposes to call Robert Donia at some point on or

8 after the 22nd of April, and of course that is well in excess of 20 days'

9 notice. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace, for your information.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when we come

13 back after the break, I would like to address the Court with two issues.

14 There are some things that cannot be left up in the air, but of course

15 everybody has the right to a break. So I will, with your leave, address

16 the Court after the break with two issues.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it will be done right after the break

18 or just at the end of the morning session, we'll decide that. You see,

19 one of the advantages is that if there's limited time, it's our experience

20 that things usually are dealt with in a more efficient way.

21 We'll now have a break until 5 minutes to 1.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

Page 5413

1 floor, Mr. President. I think we have reasons for optimism because the

2 parties have just reached an agreement. We will try to finish the

3 examination of the witness, and Mr. Ierace and myself have reached the

4 conclusion that, with the Court's permission, we can respond to this

5 intervention on Monday later, after the morning session, once we have

6 viewed the hearings.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll hear, then, from you on Monday. That

8 also means that we could now continue the cross-examination of the

9 witness.

10 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, two tapes

12 have been provided to the Prosecution. They have not made any protest so

13 far. I don't know whether Mr. Ierace is raising in order to object -- no.

14 It seems that he is leaving. I knew it.

15 May we please now give these tapes to the booth.

16 Mr. Stamp is on his feet.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that. Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: We received two tapes from the Defence, and we did

19 what we could in the time allowed to have a look at them. The tape which

20 I believe my friend proposes to hand to the booth to be played has

21 material on it which I cannot conceive of it bearing any relevance to this

22 case and is not in either of the tapes which have been played before or

23 produced in Court.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So you say you object at least partially to the

25 relevance. Let's -- could you indicate when we come to those points and

Page 5414

1 when we have perhaps entered in those areas, because if you say, "now

2 comes the part of the tape which is irrelevant," of course we have got no

3 idea what will then come. And if there's any general remark, Mr.

4 Piletta-Zanin is aware of the points which you think the tape is

5 irrelevant?

6 MR. STAMP: I haven't had an opportunity.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that 20 minutes is not much time.

8 Let's just proceed, I would say, and if you indicate whenever we come to a

9 point. And sometimes, even if a small part of the tape would not be that

10 relevant but would not harm the case of the Prosecution -- I know that 45

11 seconds irrelevant material, although it should not be there, under

12 circumstances might to be preferred above 5 minutes of discussion on

13 relevance of the 45 seconds.

14 MR. STAMP: Indeed. In the interests of time, we could proceed,

15 though the second thing I wish to add is we did not have time to compare

16 what we got with our originals. But we could proceed in the interests of

17 time.


19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Could we have a number for the tape, please.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The tape is with Mr. Usher.

22 It has not been marked with a number yet, but I think that the number

23 would be 72. We already have 71. 7-2. Thank you.

24 Let me indicate, Mr. President, that I have not had the

25 opportunity of viewing the tape which has been handed over to me by the

Page 5415

1 relevant authorities, but I know that it is an excerpt of a tape which was

2 provided to us by the Prosecution and that the tape is familiar to the

3 Prosecution because that's where it originates from.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, unless you come up with another

5 D71, the last one we have is D70, which is the three-page well-stapled

6 sketch, two different sketches, of what the witness testified is the

7 Markale market. So if it's D71 -- you're nodding. That means that the

8 tape will be D71?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The document -- the one that

10 we are tendering is D71. But they have been premarked, these documents.

11 That is why the tape is going to be 72. We have an image on the screen

12 now, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But before we view the tape,

15 and I will give the instructions in English, I should like to ask the

16 witness that he listens carefully to the words spoken on the tape.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we now view the tape,

19 please.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Do we have any problem with the

22 tape recorder?

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we stop here, please.

25 Thank you.

Page 5416

1 Q. Witness, you have just heard a passage on this tape. I think it

2 was perfectly audible. I hope you have heard the words yourself, or maybe

3 do you wish to have the tape replayed?

4 A. No, thank you, I have heard the text.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what you have just heard, the words

6 that you have just heard spoken by an individual on this tape?

7 A. "Please have a look at the roof, the tail-fin may be there."

8 Q. That is precisely what was said on the tape. Thank you very much

9 for the quality of that quote, Witness. So at the time they were

10 initially inspecting the scene, the investigators were wondering whether

11 the stabiliser or the tail-fin could be found on the roof. Is that

12 correct? Is that the meaning of the passage that we have just heard?

13 A. Yes, and I know whose voice it is.

14 Q. Can you tell us who the owner of the voice is?

15 A. The voice comes from Sead Besic, the crime technician.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when we hear this reference to the

17 roof, is it the roof of the 22nd December building? Is that the roof in

18 question?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. Witness, why would a tail-fin end up on a roof? Why would it be

21 found on a nearby roof?

22 A. I don't know why Mr. Besic said that, since we later found the

23 stabiliser in the centre of the crater.

24 Q. It is a crucial element, and words were spoken to the effect that

25 it can be found on the roof. Don't you find it strange that such an

Page 5417

1 important item can be found on the roof?

2 A. I was not standing near the camera when he was speaking. It's

3 just that I recognised his voice only now from the tape.

4 Q. Thank you. No further questions regarding this tape.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have another tape that I

6 would like to have the witness view, just a very brief passage. Can we

7 see the same passage again for a few seconds, please.

8 For the transcript, the tape that we have just seen concerns the

9 Markale market incident, the time being the time of the inspection of the

10 surrounding area of the crater.

11 Q. Can you confirm that, Witness?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The next tape will, of course,

15 be 73, number 73. I indicate this to Madam Registrar.

16 I don't know if we have the image on the screen yet, whether the

17 technicians are ready. We will proceed pursuant to their orders.

18 I don't have an image on my screen.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just wait, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 If there are any technical problems from the booth, I'd like to

21 know. Otherwise, we'll just wait.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed that it takes some time to change the

24 tapes.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No problem, Mr. President.

Page 5418

1 Meanwhile, let us take the opportunity of the availability of Mr. Usher,

2 who will please help us distribute this document, D71, to the witness. We

3 will save time by proceeding in this manner.


5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while we wait

6 for the technical problems to be resolved --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for one second to provide it to the witness. If

8 the --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can perfectly see the

12 image on the screen now. We can move on.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the counsel because

15 of the tape.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]

17 THE INTERPRETER: We don't hear the counsel at all.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do not think that the interpreters are able to -- can

20 translate you and at the same time there's a lot of noise for us also to

21 understand --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to give any instructions to the witness,

24 please do it prior to playing the tape.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President. I

Page 5419

1 thought it was possible. I just wanted to save time.

2 Q. Witness, simply the following: Would you please pay attention to

3 two things regarding the next tape, and that is the position of the arrows

4 on the surface with respect to the surrounding buildings and also the

5 location of the 22nd December building with respect to the road which is

6 on the opposite side of Marsal Tito Street.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we continue with the

8 viewing, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Have the cassette replayed.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we stop here, please.

12 Q. Witness, as regards this image, can you confirm that the central

13 crater is covered with debris?

14 A. You mean this yellow material, yellow traces that we see?

15 Q. I mean specifically what is in the centre of the image at the

16 bottom of the image, slightly above the white pole which is positioned

17 diagonally in this image. Can you confirm that in the centre, bottom

18 centre, of this image, we can see the crater?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you also confirm that the crater is completely

21 covered with debris and soil?

22 A. No, I cannot. It doesn't seem to be covered to me.

23 Q. Witness, do you see here a hole or not?

24 A. Yes, I can see a hole at the very bottom of the image next to the

25 white tape.

Page 5420

1 Q. Very well. Witness, as regards this surrounding area, the one

2 which is bordered with white chalk, was this area cleared, was it cleaned

3 up?

4 A. There are certain traces left. There is still some soil or sand

5 on it.

6 Q. Can you indicate for us the tail-fin on this image? Can you give

7 us an objective assessment of this?

8 A. Objectively speaking, I don't see it at all.

9 Q. Very well. Can you read the date indicated on this image? It

10 should be found in the bottom left corner of the picture.

11 A. Yes, I can. February the 6th --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have difficulties in following

14 your questions on the centre of the image where there's supposed to be a

15 hole because it's just beyond our screen where one would expect the centre

16 of what might be a crater is. Could you, please, either by moving forward

17 or backwards, give us a better image --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We can

19 perhaps ask the technicians to go back a little bit. But -- to zoom back

20 a little bit, but I think that the orifice or the hole that I was talking

21 about is perfectly visible.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a little more to the

24 back, please.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 5421

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think this will do, thank

2 you.

3 Mr. President, I think that the hole we mentioned now is now more

4 visible. I don't know whether it is visible for you. It depends, of

5 course, on the quality of this image.

6 Q. Witness, one last question for the sake of clarity: The orifice

7 at the bottom part of the crater was not measured, that is, the area which

8 is underneath the black area which is in the bottom of the image that we

9 can now see on the screen. Was that the case?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me ask the technicians to

13 speed up a little bit so that we can proceed with further questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Moving forwards?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Yes, of course. Will you please

16 do that?

17 [Interpretation] Can we fast forward, please. [In English] Could

18 you please accelerate the speed? [Interpretation] Because I'm not sure

19 that everything was reproduced on the tape. Can we stop here. Thank

20 you.

21 Can we now have the normal speed, please.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. It goes on.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the end of

Page 5422

1 the tape.

2 Q. Witness, we were able to distinguish the arrows which were drawn

3 on the surface, on the ground, that is. Is it true -- just a second,

4 please.

5 These arrows slightly point towards the 22nd December building.

6 Was that the case, according to your recollection?

7 A. According to my recollection and in view of what I have just seen,

8 yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, we have just viewed this tape. It is going

10 to be tendered into evidence. Can you now tell us whether the 22nd

11 December building extends all the way to the street which is situated

12 opposite Marshal Tito Street, that is, on the other edge of the market

13 where we were able to see an alley, to your knowledge?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no

16 further questions regarding these tapes, but I do have a few questions

17 regarding this witness's military activity, or actually military

18 activities.

19 Q. Witness, could you tell us if there is a technique difference in

20 what we call in military art unfortunately a shell and a mine? Do you

21 know what the difference between the two is?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very briefly, Witness, would you be able to point out the

24 difference to us?

25 A. According to what I know, mines are devices that can destroy the

Page 5423

1 enemy lines. It's these explosives. Whereas shells are projectiles that

2 are fired, and it's artillery projectiles.

3 Q. Excuse me, Witness, you lived through the war. What was going on

4 during the fighting in respect to fuel? How was the army able to obtain

5 fuel supplies?

6 A. Believe me, I really do not know what the case was for the army,

7 but I do know what was going on in the police when we had to move and go

8 to on-site investigations.

9 Q. So therefore, could you tell us how is it that the police was able

10 to get fuel?

11 A. There was a logistics service of the MUP, and they were in charge

12 of this. So we would receive one litre per investigation for a car.

13 Q. Witness, the reason being that fuel was not regularly available on

14 the open market. Is that the right reason?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Witness, with respect to that period in which the war took place,

18 is it possible that some vehicles, to your knowledge, civilian vehicles,

19 would also be used by the army?

20 A. Yes, but in that case, they had particular stickers that would

21 identify them as being members of the army. They were not painted in a

22 camouflage manner, but they bore certain distinction signs, emblems.

23 Q. Thank you. What were those stickers, briefly?

24 A. The former emblem of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was four -- it

25 was the coat of arms, the fleur-de-lys.

Page 5424

1 Q. And since the Chamber may ask you about the size of these emblems,

2 can you tell us what was the size of these emblems, of these stickers, to

3 your recollection, according to your recollection, to the best of your

4 recollection?

5 A. Well, I would say 30 by 40 centimetres on the hood and also on the

6 doors of the vehicle.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, have you heard of the existence of a mobile

8 unit that was -- that had small mortars that were attached to civilian

9 vehicles?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you for this answer. And lastly, Witness, to the best of

12 your recollection, what would be, if you can tell us, the definition of

13 what we call a sniper?

14 A. I really don't know.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, and I would have one last question for you,

16 and I will ask you this question because you do read English. I would

17 like to submit to the witness D71. You will receive this document from

18 the usher in a few moments, and on this document, which is a two-page

19 document, you will see under (a), under Item (a) for the date of the 22nd

20 of January, 1994.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is the Annex

22 number 6 of the final report of the UNPROFOR, and I would like the witness

23 to read, if he is able to do so, the first paragraph that the witness has

24 before him. And would you please place this on the ELMO, please. On the

25 ELMO, so that everybody can follow.

Page 5425

1 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do I understand you well that you

3 are referring to Annex 6 to the report of the committee of experts?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is the

5 case. It is the same series of document, Annex 6, that is so, page seven

6 hundred and -- my copy is quite illegible. 768 and 769.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Q. Sir, would you please read what appears under Item 22 for the 21st

10 of January, 1994, under item (a), the first paragraph? Could you please

11 read this.

12 A. Yes, under military activity?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. [In English] Combat and shelling activity: UNPROFOR reported that

15 during the day, 40 SL were fired by Bosnian Serb forces, while 3 were

16 fired by BH forces. 42 source, Agence France Presse.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness. One word is illegible, and that is not your

18 fault, of course, and you can't do anything about it. Maybe we can read

19 s-h-o-t. I'm just extrapolating here, but I believe that the meaning is

20 clear.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. There are no

22 further questions. Mr. President, this puts an end to the

23 cross-examination of this witness, and we thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 May I just indicate - I have not checked it - but "shells" also

Page 5426

1 start with SH. So I don't know whether we can immediately follow you that

2 it should be read "shot."

3 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Stamp?

4 MR. STAMP: Just a couple in clarification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

6 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

7 Q. Could you have a look at some of these documents that were shown

8 to you by my learned friend. First, the one marked Defence Exhibit 68.

9 Have you ever seen that document before today?

10 A. No. I saw this document for the first time today.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you have a look at the one marked D70. The

12 diagrams in that -- on the pages of that document, did you prepare those

13 diagrams?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You gave some distances from your memory in respect to the

16 measurements at the Markale incident in answer to my learned friend.

17 Would you be able to say that the measurements which you took and which

18 are a part of the document which you created yourself, are they accurate

19 measurements in respect to that place?

20 A. Yes, and I can confirm it with certainty.

21 MR. STAMP: Could the witness have a look at P2307. I beg your

22 pardon, P2309. I'm so sorry. Thanks, madam.

23 While the registrar is finding it, may I just indicate that in the

24 course -- remind the Court, in the course of the testimony, there had been

25 some problems with legibility of a part of a document, and we had brought

Page 5427

1 the original which turned out to be legible. I would like to distribute

2 to the Court and to my learned friends copies of the original which are

3 more legible.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Good copies of the original.

5 MR. STAMP: Good copies of the original.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just finished

7 the cross-examination. May I ask Mr. Stamp if he found these documents in

8 the last 10 seconds or if he was in possession of these documents while I

9 was cross-examining? I believe that there is a loyalty question, one has

10 to be loyal with regards to debates and fair, and I believe this is at

11 least the least we can do.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the document that has been

13 distributed now by Mr. Stamp was not legible solely, I would say, on the

14 agenda under number 3, which in the original we all have seen was about

15 market stalls. I think there is nothing else more legible on this

16 document than on the earlier copy of it.

17 So please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

18 THE REGISTRAR: This is Document P2309A?

19 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm really terribly sorry, but

23 could we also get a copy to make sure? We would like to see that sentence

24 correctly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. I expect you to get a copy as well.

Page 5428

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But we do not have it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. I'll give you my copy just for a

3 moment.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Terribly sorry, sincerely.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: For the record, in front of the witness is Exhibit

7 P2309, which I believe my friends have in their possession. And that is

8 what I'm asking the witness about. 9A, 2309A.

9 Q. Could you look at the penultimate page of this -- sorry, could you

10 look at the page with the number 0026-8360 where you have drawn a

11 diagram. The building numbered 5 on your diagram is the 22nd of December

12 building?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, you were shown a video during cross-examination in which --

15 and you were asked about the arrow which was pointing towards the 27th of

16 December building -- 22nd of December building, yes. Now, is the arrow

17 that you saw in that video consistent with what you have in your diagram?

18 A. That is that arrow.

19 Q. Were you present at the investigation of the 6th of February?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You said in answer to my learned friend that Sead Besic had

22 indicated that perhaps you could -- one could look at the roof to find the

23 stabiliser.

24 A. Yes. That's what he said. That's what we heard on the tape.

25 Q. Yes. When you came to the scene, the impact scene, at Markale,

Page 5429

1 was it immediately apparent to you that the stabiliser was embedded in the

2 ground?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know what was the situation in respect to Mr. Besic? Do

5 you know if Mr. Besic immediately was able to determine whether or not the

6 stabiliser was buried in the ground?

7 A. According to him and his knowledge, no.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Now, you said the crater was 9 centimetres deep, that is 9

10 centimetres from the top of the asphalt.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, is there a distinction between a crater and a tunnel that

13 might be created by a stabiliser fin if it embeds itself in the ground?

14 A. Are you talking about a softer surface?

15 Q. A surface such as the one at Markale.

16 A. The stabiliser was found at the centre of the crater at a depth of

17 9 centimetres from the asphalt surface.

18 Q. Now, that 9 centimetres which you speak of, does that 9

19 centimetres include the depth to which the stabiliser had embedded itself

20 in the ground?

21 A. No. That is the depth from the top of the asphalt up until the

22 last part of the stabiliser.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing

25 further of this witness.

Page 5430

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

2 May I just ask the interpreters booth, if there would be one or

3 more, two questions of the Judges, whether we could continue for a couple

4 of minutes.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

7 Judge El Mahdi has a question or several questions for you.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, please tell me the

11 following: Can you tell me what went on during the on-site investigation

12 that you carried out regarding the Markale market incident. My first

13 question relates to what you have said regarding Mr. Besic. You said that

14 he, himself, had cleaned up the site. Did he carry out this cleaning up

15 before or after you were able to determine the direction from which the

16 shell was fired? Because if I understood you correctly, it was very

17 important, in order to determine the trajectory, to be able to examine the

18 debris to see where -- how scattered they are and at what distance they

19 are from the point of impact. So if I understood correctly, he proceeded

20 to the cleaning up of the site, but was this before or after attempting to

21 try to determine the origin of fire and the direction from which the

22 projectile landed?

23 A. Mr. Besic proceeded to clean up the site of the artillery shell

24 fall after only we established the parameters because the traces were very

25 clear, very clean. And after we've established that the tail-fin was

Page 5431

1 embedded in the crater and was at the centre of the explosion, Mr. Besic

2 then proceeded to clean up more in detail the site in order to wait for

3 the UNPROFOR team, who then delodged or extracted the tail-fin. This is

4 why I mentioned that Mr. Besic proceeded to the cleaning up of the site.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And one short

6 question: I'm just wondering here, you stated - and I will actually quote

7 you in English - "... with the stabiliser which was lodged while awaiting

8 the arrival of the UNPROFOR members." [Interpretation] How can you

9 explain this? Do you usually proceed in this manner, in this fashion? Do

10 you not usually extract the stabiliser? What

11 do you usually do?

12 A. In cases such as the one at the Markale market where there were

13 lots of casualties, lots of deaths, we did not wish to continue the work

14 because the magistrate, the investigating magistrate, told us to stop and

15 wait because the UNPROFOR members might come. We weren't really sure that

16 they will or that they would come. So this was part of our usual

17 procedure during the war. Whenever there was a greater number of civilian

18 casualties, this is the way we were proceeding because usually the

19 UNPROFOR was going on site as well in those cases.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, am I right in understanding that your

22 method with the compass and the map requires the centre of the needle to

23 be put precisely on the spot where the impact took place?

24 A. If the circumstances permit so, yes, in order to be as precise as

25 possible.

Page 5432

1 JUDGE ORIE: How did you manage to get the centre of the needle of

2 the compass on a rather large-scale map, as I can see, to be precise on

3 the spot of the impact? I'm just trying to imagine for myself how to do

4 it, look under it. How did you manage to get it exactly on the spot?

5 A. That was not exactly the spot, but we try to do our best in view

6 of the kind of map that we have. In the case of Markale, the compass was

7 located on the spot that I indicated in my testimony.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever make an analysis of what would be

9 the deviation if, for example, you'd put the centre of the needle, well,

10 let's say 5 millimetres off the spot? I mean, what would that mean for

11 the final result of your investigation?

12 A. That kind of analysis was never done; however, the late Mr. Zlatko

13 Medjedovic carried out similar analysis by using metal objects and testing

14 them against this compass needle. We made sure that in the vicinity of

15 the compass and the map that there were no metal objects which might have

16 a more significant impact on the movements of the compass needle.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that, that you removed whatever

18 metal objects there were. But especially analysis of what would be the

19 effect on the outcome of your investigation if, for example, the centre of

20 the needle would be 5 millimetres away from the exact spot of the impact

21 on the map, because it's so difficult to look under the compass.

22 A. No, we never carried out such analysis. Personally, I don't think

23 that 5 millimetres would be a significant deviation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.

25 This concludes an examination of you as a witness, which lasted

Page 5433

1 for a few days even, with some interruptions. You will be aware that it's

2 of great importance for this Court, for this Chamber, to hear the answers

3 of those who were present at the relevant times and places, the answers to

4 the questions put by both parties and by the Judges themselves. It's

5 important for us for the decisions we'll finally have to make. We are

6 also aware that it's quite an effort for you to come from far away, travel

7 to The Hague, stay here for I would say a few days, but perhaps even many

8 days by now. So we would like to thank you very much that you have come

9 to The Hague, that you have testified in this Court. And we'll wish you a

10 safe journey home again.

11 Mr. Usher, could you please lead the witness out of the

12 courtroom.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think Madam Registrar we should start tomorrow

15 morning with the documents, since we asked already so much time from the

16 interpreters. So I prefer to do that tomorrow morning first thing. And I

17 think some of the documents, if they are admitted, will have to be

18 admitted under seal because of the name of the protected witness on it.

19 Then I would like to urge the parties, especially for tomorrow, to be

20 again as efficient as possible. We know that those witnesses we are not

21 able to examine tomorrow, if we are not able to conclude their

22 examination, that they will have to wait for more than a week and either

23 travel back or forth. So may I urge the parties to be as efficient as

24 possible.

25 And then finally, just for the sake of the transcript, it was my

Page 5434












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13 English transcripts.













Page 5435

1 recollection that the name "Goethe" was of Johan Wolfgang Von Goethe, a

2 German poet, which is written "Goethe."

3 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Friday, the 15th day of March, 2002,

7 at 9.00 a.m.