Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7178

 1                          Monday, 15 April 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Stanislav Galic.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  I see that the copies made by the Registry, since the

 9    parties could not compromise on who would make the copies, are now

10    distributed.  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is D92 as you intended it to tender

11    with the shining-through text on it.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  We decided already that we would admit them into

14    evidence.  This is D92.  We also received copies of some correspondence.

15    After we've read them we will see what we have to do with them.

16            Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  Still

18    with regard to the witness who will be appearing and in particular with

19    regard to one of these witnesses, the problems of disclosure of documents.

20    The Defence and the Prosecution have not managed to solve this problem

21    during the break of the weekend and of Friday, that is to say.  There are

22    two different kinds of problems in question; for one of these witnesses we

23    received documents which apparently are of no interest to the hearing and

24    the second witness, but this is now becoming almost a leitmotif.  We are

25    still talking about the quality of these documents which handicaps, in a

Page 7179

 1    very serious manner, the Defence.

 2            There is another point I would like to raise, Mr. President, and

 3    the Defence would like to file an oral motion.  This will only take a few

 4    minutes.  I don't know if you can authorise me to do so now.  It might

 5    take a few seconds.  This is the matter:  For some time we have been

 6    awaiting certain responses from the Prosecution.  A number of questions

 7    were put to the Prosecution and among them was a question relating to how

 8    and why certain documents which appear to be very serious, at least from

 9    the point of view from the Prosecution, with regard to Markale in

10    particular, were perhaps doctored, manipulated.  I am talking about the

11    traces that we saw on the copies.  When I say "manipulations," it means

12    manual interventions on the document and nothing else.  We haven't

13    received any responses and I think it would be good if your Trial Chamber

14    could fix a time limit for the Prosecution in order to finally give us a

15    clear response as to how these modifications took place, these

16    modifications, these manipulations in the literal sense of the term, how

17    this came about.  That is the first question that we would like to solve.

18    So if your Trial Chamber could give an order for a time limit for this to

19    be solved.

20            The second question, which is just as important, Mr. President, is

21    that we would like to know from when exactly the Prosecution knew that the

22    shells -- we are talking about Markale, these shells which relate to the

23    proceedings, and in the form of photographs, we have photographic records

24    of this in any case, and naturally, within the context of the different

25    depositions given by witnesses, we would like to know from what date the

Page 7180

 1    Prosecution knew that these documents were not available.  Mr. President,

 2    I am asking this question about the Defence's strategy in order to enable

 3    us to prepare and in order to enable us to prepare on the basic elements

 4    that we know and if for certain reasons we cannot produce these documents,

 5    then we would like to know that this is the case.

 6            If this is not solved, then the Defence would consider that its

 7    rights have been gravely infringed.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, whether there are any documents at this

 9    moment have got nothing to do with the testimony that we can expect from a

10    witness.  I think we come to that when these documents will be tendered.

11    About the quality, I think it is also a matter of once they are going to

12    be tendered or to be produced, then we will see what the quality is and

13    whether the quality is acceptable for the Chamber.  The manipulations,

14    what exactly -- the manipulated documents, which ones were you exactly

15    referring to, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was

17    referring to the documents that your Trial Chamber didn't accept, the

18    ones on which the dates were apparently effaced.  That was a manipulation,

19    it seems, on the certificates, these autopsies, or rather, the summaries

20    of autopsies.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then we have the third part of this about

22     -- you are talking about a shrapnel which disappeared --

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, are you able to answer to these questions

25    now or within what period of time because the Defence asks for a response

Page 7181

 1    on short notice?

 2            MR. STAMP:  Yes, it is indeed short.  But I think most of these

 3    questions had been raised and the Prosecution had made certain

 4    representations and submissions.  Perhaps we could have some time to

 5    consider everything that has been said today and whatever is convenient to

 6    the Court, if we could respond to these two questions, or three questions

 7    within a reasonable time.

 8            I am afraid that I am not quite certain what the second question

 9    is.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  The second question is an explanation on how these

11    documents on which -- well, what Mr. Piletta-Zanin calls manipulations,

12    have been made at least the dates.  There seem to be several dates

13    visible; one that one time had been stricken out and others that finally

14    appear legible in the documents.  They would like to have an explanation

15    as to how this could happen.

16            MR. STAMP:  As was indicated to the Court, the evidence which we

17    will call to explain a variety of things in this case including the --

18    what we would eventually submit as corrections made on documents depends

19    to somewhat extent on the issues raised and the conduct of

20    cross-examination.  The Defence has raised the issue, the Court has

21    indicated that it requires an explanation.  We did indicate to the Court

22    on that day that since the matter is now an issue and since the question

23    of these post-mortem reports, or the dates on them, has been raised, we

24    provide evidence as to how those corrections were made.

25            I don't know if I need to give a further explanation, if I need

Page 7182

 1    to --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  You say the explanation would come once we produce

 3    the evidence in relation to these documents?

 4            MR. STAMP:  Yes, it will come.  The persons who can explain all of

 5    these documents are on the witness list.  We -- one of them will be 92

 6    bis.  We will exercise the discretion to call that person to explain to

 7    the Court to give the evidence about how these documents were made.  When

 8    I ask about the nature of the second question, I was really asking about

 9    the question in respect to the Markale incident.  I am not sure if I

10    understood what my friend is asking in respect of the Markale incident

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I think this is the medical -- at least, the death --

12    the medical records indicating the cause of death of the witnesses.  I

13    think that is what Mr. Piletta-Zanin calls the manipulated documents and

14    they were related to the Markale incident.

15            MR. STAMP:  I thought my friend asked --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  The third one was the shrapnel issue, whether there

17    was an explanation why the pieces of shrapnel which are photographed, we

18    have seen the photographs, why they are still missing.  We had some

19    explanation on to that, something about a removal of office, et cetera.

20            MR. STAMP:  If that is the question.  I think the question is a

21    little bit unclear and my friend does not think that what the Court

22    suggests is the question is the question --

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due

24    respect, that is not quite the question.  The question related to knowing

25    - and the Prosecution could tell me this at the end of the hearing - the

Page 7183

 1    question was from what date the Prosecution knew that these determining

 2    elements, these pieces of shrapnel, from what date they knew that these

 3    pieces of shrapnel could not be traced whereas, there were photographic

 4    records and in the testimony given by various witnesses, this was also

 5    referred to.  The witnesses called by the Prosecution referred to it.

 6    The question is simply:  From what date did the Prosecution know that it

 7    could no longer produce this shrapnel?   This is an important question for

 8    the Defence because we have based our defence also on the idea that these

 9    documents would be produced, whereas we see that this is not the case.

10            So if we have to lose a considerable amount of time to prepare a

11    strategy in order to produce documents to contact people, physicists,

12    chemists, et cetera, on the basis of the documents that we were told we

13    would get but which we have not received, in that case, the Defence will

14    draw certain logical conclusions from this.  That is what we are

15    interested in.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  The question is on from what moment the Prosecution

17    who provided photographs of shrapnel pieces, on from what date the

18    Prosecution knew that they could not -- well, that these pieces were not

19    available any more.

20            MR. STAMP:  I will try to obtain the precise date and convey that

21    information to my learned friend through the Court or to him directly, as

22    he suggests.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Could this be done by tomorrow?  Is that a fair time

24    limit?

25            MR. STAMP:  By tomorrow we will do all that is necessary to have

Page 7184

 1    that information available.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.  I think then we reach

 3    the moment where the Prosecution could call its next witness and that

 4    would be, if I am well informed, Mr. Enver Taslaman.

 5            MR. STAMP:  Indeed it is.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness

 7    into the courtroom.

 8            Good afternoon.  Mr. Taslaman, I presume.  From your answer, I

 9    take it you can hear me in a language you understand.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taslaman, before giving your testimony in this

12    court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

13    declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

14    the truth.  The text of this declaration will be given to you now by the

15    usher and may I invite you to make that declaration.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  Please be seated.

19            Mr. Taslaman, you will first be examined by counsel for the

20    Prosecution. Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

21            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much.

22                          WITNESS: ENVER TASLAMAN

23                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                          Examined by Mr. Stamp:

25       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Could you please tell the Court your name.

Page 7185

 1       A.   My name is Enver Taslaman, I was born on the 23rd of February,

 2    1933, in Skopje, the former Republic of Macedonia, and I lived in Sarajevo

 3    and Mostar.

 4       Q.   Do you work presently, Mr. Taslaman?

 5       A.   I am retired.

 6       Q.   Now you said you lived in Sarajevo.  Where do you live now?

 7       A.   I still live in Sarajevo.

 8       Q.   Did you live there between the period of 1990 and 1995?

 9       A.   In 1991, we were expelled from that settlement and as a refugee I

10    lived in another part which is called the C5 settlement or the C5 area.

11       Q.   Did you live in Sarajevo?

12       A.   Sarajevo, yes.  Naturally in Sarajevo.

13       Q.   Now, what is the district that you refer to as C5 normally called,

14    or where exactly is it?

15       A.   That area is in the place where these shells fell, where these

16    pumps were located.

17       Q.   C5, as you refer to it, is in which part of Sarajevo?

18       A.   Yes.  Dobrinja.  Dobrinja.

19       Q.   Is it the area sometimes referred to as the airport settlement?

20       A.   I lived in the airport settlement and we were expelled in 1991.

21    And as refugee, we moved to live in the C5 area and that is part of

22    Dobrinja.

23       Q.   Now, in 1993 during the conflict that occurred in Sarajevo, were

24    you in any way employed as a result of that conflict?

25       A.   No, I was a pensioner.  I have been a pensioner since 1978.

Page 7186

 1       Q.   And in respect to that conflict, did you in any way participate

 2    in community activities in 1993?

 3       A.   Well, let me tell you, I was a disabled pensioner.  I was not able

 4    to participate in any kinds of conflict and I am too old to be active.

 5    All I could do was work for the civilian protection.

 6       Q.   Now, in 1993, were you assigned any particular task in respect to

 7    your work for the civilian protection?

 8       A.   Well, when humanitarian aid would arrive, it would be distributed.

 9    We helped and then we went on duty.  We made sure that people could obtain

10    water and pump water and so on.

11       Q.   What were your responsibilities in respect to pumping water or

12    obtaining water in 1993?

13       A.   When I was on duty for the water, there was a pump there and only

14    two could go there at a time.  One would pump the water and the other one

15    would collect it.  When the bucket would be filled, another person would

16    come to pump and the person who was pumping before, he would take water.

17       Q.   You seem to be speaking about a particular time or a particular

18    situation.  I am asking you generally, what generally were your

19    responsibilities during 1993 or the earlier part of 1993 in respect to the

20    distribution of water in the community that you lived in?

21       A.   I was a guard for the water.  I had to let people pump the water,

22    that was my task.  I had to prevent all of them from entering the yard at

23    the same time.  I only allowed two of them to enter at a time.  One person

24    would pump and the other person would fill up his bucket.

25       Q.   Now, in the early part of 1993, did you or may I -- withdraw that.

Page 7187

 1    Why did people in your community have to get water from a pump in the

 2    yard, in a yard?

 3       A.   Well, our water is very good and there are good sources in Bosnia,

 4    but our enemies cut the water supply off.  We were forced to -- well,

 5    luckily, these private houses had this water.  They also had a normal

 6    water supply which would come from the sources, but when the supply was

 7    cut off, their supply was cut off too.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very slight problem of

10    translation.  If we can't use the term "aggression," in this Tribunal,

11    then this term should not be used.  "Aggressor" should not be used.   In

12    the French transcript, I think that I noticed this.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I see in the English transcript the word "enemies."

14    What is the part where the witness stated about cutting off the water?

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it was this word "enemies"

16    that I heard, and I think that I heard it translated in the French

17    transcript, Mr. President, as "aggressor."  And for the reasons that we

18    know, I wanted to draw your attention, I wanted to draw the attention to

19    the booth to this fact.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  The word "aggressor," this is why we interpreted

21    as "agresseur."

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Should I answer?

23            JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I am just asking you, Mr. Taslaman -- we usually

24    speak about the other party or you indicate what the party is.  And we

25    usually refrain from qualifications as to "aggressors," or if you could do

Page 7188

 1    so, and of course if there is a specific reason why we use these

 2    words, you can use them but if you are just referring to the other party,

 3    we prefer to say it in a rather neutral term since this Court does not

 4    know at this moment whether there was aggression, who was an aggressor.

 5    We still have to hear the whole case before we could interpret these words

 6    properly.

 7            So if you could do that, unless there is a specific reason why

 8    you would choose other language, but then please then indicate why you use

 9    it.

10            Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

11            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12       Q.   I take it from your answer that water sometimes ran in the pipes

13    in the homes of the community where you lived; is that correct?

14       A.   Of course.  Because it was the 20th century and we lived in a big

15    city as Sarajevo and we had powerful forces of water and then we were put

16    into a situation in which we had to go out and collect water and carry 30

17    litres of water --

18       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Taslaman.  Please listen to what I ask and answer

19    it.  We will take it step by step.

20            Sometimes the water which ran in the pipes to your homes was cut

21    off; that is correct?

22       A.   For the most part it was cut off since the start of the

23    hostilities.

24       Q.   And that is the reason why people went to pumps for water; is

25    that what you were expressing earlier?

Page 7189

 1       A.   That's correct.

 2       Q.   Now, can you recall the 12th of July, 1993?

 3       A.   [No translation]

 4       Q.   Did you hear the question that I am asking you?  Can you remember

 5    the 12th of July, 1993?

 6       A.   I didn't hear what you said.

 7            MR. STAMP:  There is probably no translation.

 8       A.   I will try and remember.

 9       Q.   On the 12th of July, 1993, at about midday of that day, were you

10    on duty anywhere in respect of your work for the civil protection group?

11       A.    That is correct.  On the 12th of July, around 1500 hours, that

12    shell landed, and it was an enemy shell, if we can call them like that,

13    and then a massacre happened on that particular day.

14       Q.   Before we get to the shell falling, Mr. Taslaman, I would be

15    grateful if you would just listen to what I ask and answer, just respond

16    to the questions.

17            What were you doing there that day?  That is what I am asking you.

18    Were you on duty there with respect to your duties with the civil

19    protection?

20       A.   On that particular day, I was on duty and I was there, allowing

21    people to collect water and then when any two people left, the other two

22    were allowed to come and collect water.

23       Q.   Where exactly -- where exactly in your community were you on duty?

24       A.   I was on duty at the pump in the yard of Mujezinovic, where the

25    pump was working that day.

Page 7190

 1       Q.   Can you remember the name of the street?

 2       A.   The name of the street was changed several times.  First of all,

 3    it was called Brane Buljica Aleja, then it was called Cane Babovica, and

 4    then after the liberation, or after the end of the war or whatever you

 5    want to call it, it was Babovica; it was changed again.

 6       Q.   Do you remember what it was called in 1993?

 7       A.   I think the name was Babovica.

 8       Q.   Now, how were the people organised to collect this water?

 9       A.   To get water, well, people would put it in to plastic canisters or

10    buckets or oil canisters, 30 litres each.  They were allowed to pour 30

11    litres each.

12       Q.   Now you said you allowed two people at a time to go to the pump.

13    Where exactly was the pump in the yard?

14       A.   About four or five metres away from the gates.

15       Q.   And when you said "the gates," would this be the front gate?

16       A.   The gate which marked the entry into the yard, into the courtyard

17    of the building.

18       Q.   And how were the people organised before they were let into the

19    yard?

20       A.   When any one person left, the other one went in because it was

21    their turn to collect water.  And the person who had remained in pumped

22    it.  Because we necessarily had to have two people in there at any given

23    time.

24       Q.   At about 15.00 hours, about how many people were in the vicinity

25    waiting to collect water?

Page 7191

 1       A.   Well, I can't really tell you exactly, but there were people on

 2    both sides of the building and they moved close to their canisters, simply

 3    to move them forward because it was about 150 metres away from where they

 4    had put their canisters and buckets.

 5       Q.   I see.  Can you give us an estimate of approximately how many

 6    people were waiting for water at about 3.00 on the 12th of July, 1993?

 7       A.   Well, since the pump across the street was out of order, perhaps

 8    anything between 100 and 150 people.

 9       Q.   And if two were let into the yard at the pump at one time, where

10    were the other people wait?

11       A.   They were waiting along the sides of the buildings, near the

12    staircases and the door.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Piletta-Zanin with all due

15    respect, the French booth is telling me that the Prosecution is extremely

16    difficult to hear.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, the French booth has some difficulties in

18    hearing you.  Please speak as loud as possible, not as possible, but loud

19    enough to be understood.

20            MR. STAMP:  There is a small problem with my microphone.

21    Sometimes it virtually explodes in my ear.  That's why I turned it down at

22    one stage. But it seems to be fine now.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Problem solved.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, apparently

25    there is a problem with the channel in the French booth because they said

Page 7192

 1    the accused replies instead of the Prosecution replies, so I just wanted

 2    to clarify that point.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't hear the accused speak.

 4                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  I am informed that part of the problem might be

 6    caused in the B/C/S English booth where, while not translating, the

 7    microphone is still open, as far as I understand, and I am informed that

 8    it would help us if the microphone would be put off.  I don't know whether

 9    it is true or not, but that's just my information.  Could you please see

10    whether you can help in solving the problem.

11            Mr. Stamp, let's try again and see whether we can continue in such

12    a way that everyone hears whatever he needs to hear.

13            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14       Q.   You said the other people would be outside waiting along the sides

15    of building and near the staircases.  Would that be on the road outside

16    the yard where the pump was?

17       A.   Alongside the buildings.  Because first you've got those private

18    houses, and then there was a district called Hakije Turajlica to the left,

19    and to the right there is the Babovica side.

20       Q.   I am talking about the people who were outside.  They would be

21    lined up along the street?

22       A.   Alongside buildings and on the staircases.  They were not standing

23    outside in the street except for when they had to move their canisters.

24       Q.   What was the weather like that afternoon?

25       A.   To tell you the truth, it was fair and sunny, but afterwards, when

Page 7193

 1    I was wounded myself, it started to rain, and when that shell --

 2       Q.   I am afraid I don't follow your answer.  It was fair and sunny at

 3    what time of that day?

 4       A.   It was fair, sunny.  Do you understand now?

 5       Q.   Yes.  It was fair and sunny.  At what time of the day you said it

 6    started to rain?  In other words, when was it fair and sunny and about

 7    when did it begin to rain?

 8       A.   It started to rain at around 5.00.  I had already gone to the

 9    hospital by then.

10       Q.   I see.

11            Now there was a conflict going on in Sarajevo at the time.  Do you

12    know where the confrontation lines were or how far the confrontation lines

13    were from this water pump?

14       A.   The demarcation line went through the airport settlement.  As the

15    crow flies, it is about 150 to 200 metres, more or less.

16       Q.   And what was the composition of the crowd that were waiting to

17    collect water that day?  Were they old people or young people; let's start

18    with that, generally speaking.

19       A.   Sixty per cent elderly.  Then some people maybe more than 20

20    perhaps, some more than 18.  I don't know.

21       Q.   And were there soldiers amongst the crowd that day, waiting for

22    water?

23       A.   Rarely.  They had their own pump down by the demarcation line.

24    Perhaps a soldier might have come along.  One can't follow all the

25    developments.

Page 7194

 1       Q.   Did you see any there that day?

 2       A.   Maybe one, but I can't be sure.  Because for the most part, it was

 3    where the civilians used to come because there was a queue and you had to

 4    wait and waste more time.

 5       Q.   I see.  You said that the soldiers had their own pump down by the

 6    demarcation line.  About how far was the soldiers' pump from the pump that

 7    you were gathered at?

 8       A.   It was about 250 metres to the right because it was down there,

 9    where they had the lines.  It was at a private house.

10       Q.   Now, approximately how many women or what proportion of the crowd

11    was made up of women waiting for water that day at your pump that you

12    guarded?

13       A.   I didn't quite hear the question.  Could you repeat it, please.

14    How many women or --

15       Q.   Yes.  What proportion of the crowd was women?

16       A.   What proportion?  Well, it depended.  We had men and women.  I

17    can't tell exactly how many women there were.

18       Q.   Now, you said a shell fell at about 3.00 in the afternoon; is

19    that correct?

20       A.   Yes, that is correct.

21       Q.   Where were you when the shell fell?

22       A.   I always used to sit in the courtyard where the pump was because

23    the gate was about two metres away from where I was sitting.  So when one

24    person was about to leave, I would let another one in, in order to have

25    them help the other person who had pumped the water earlier collect the

Page 7195

 1    water for themselves.

 2       Q.   So I take it that at the time when the shell fell, you were

 3    sitting in the courtyard; is that your answer?

 4       A.   That's correct.

 5       Q.   When the shell fell, what did you see or hear, if anything?

 6       A.   Well, first of all, I felt something because I was wounded in my

 7    right arm and in my left thigh.  And another man was wounded in the

 8    courtyard and I saw him and then I moved towards the gate and then I saw

 9    the massacre.  And then the cars came along and I was taken by that first

10    car, and another young boy whose insides were coming out, and we were

11    taken to the hospital.

12       Q.   Let's take it step by step.  You were sitting in the courtyard

13    when the shell came.  Did you hear anything immediately before the shell

14    exploded?

15       A.   The shell landed on somebody's hand, a woman's hand, so the

16    explosion was not quite as far -- as loud as it would have been had it hit

17    the asphalt, but the shrapnel was everywhere.

18       Q.   Did you hear the shell as it approached?

19       A.   No.  No, I didn't hear anything at all because the pump was in

20    operation.  People were pumping water and we couldn't have heard any

21    noise.

22       Q.   And you said when you went to the gate, you saw a massacre.

23    Describe what you mean.  Tell us exactly what you saw.

24       A.   I saw corpses down by the canisters and then shrapnel everywhere,

25    dead bodies on both sides.  I came out to get First Aid and then a couple

Page 7196

 1    of cars came along - a Golf Volkswagen and other cars with inhabitants

 2    living there - and they took us to the hospital.

 3       Q.   Which hospital did you go to?

 4       A.   Dobrinja, the Dobrinja hospital.

 5       Q.   Were you treated there?

 6       A.   Yes.  I was operated on by a Dr. Hadzir, who was the head of

 7    that hospital.  And others were treated by Dr. Cravic and the others.

 8       Q.   Were you discharged that day or were you admitted?

 9       A.   No.  Three days later when other wounded people came along and

10    then I was taken to the hospital to have my wounds treated afterwards on a

11    daily basis because the capacity of the hospital was not all that great.

12            MR. STAMP:  With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, I wish

13    to show to the witness a medical certificate which is marked P1517A.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

15            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

17            MR. IERACE:

18       Q.   Have a --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  One of

21    the problems that we have had with this document once again has to do with

22    our difficulties in reading it.  Some parts apparently have not been

23    translated and especially it seems to me that the name of the person here

24    is not the same as the name of the witness here.  Quite simply, I don't

25    know what's happened, whether the Prosecution can clarify this in any way.

Page 7197

 1    Thank you.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would take it that the

 3    document relates to another person than this witness because the name is

 4    not the same, you are perfectly entitled to ask the witness during

 5    cross-examination on whether it was him -- well, whatever questions you

 6    would like to put to him.  So that would not be a reason, but the other

 7    two things you said is the illegibility of the copy and the parts not

 8    translated.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in other words, Mr.

10    Chairman, if we look at the copy that we have received, and we have

11    already complained about it in the past, it seems to me that once again

12    there are overlaps to the right side of this paper where you can see

13    something which is completely illegible on the top of the page.  I think

14    there is something coming from a mechanic stamp above the word "Skopje"

15    and then you can see that there are some lines of the text which are

16    transparent, Mr. Chairman.  You can see a couple of dots but you don't

17    really know what these dots stand for.  We don't know if this is a

18    certified copy of the original, but we can't really tell what it is about.

19    The same applies to the left-hand side where you can see that there are a

20    couple of lines.  Apparently there was some text there.  All we can see

21    here in our copy are dots and apparently this has not been translated

22    either.  The same applies, apparently, to what is meant to be below and

23    above this "IM Ratka 13" which is not legible before, either what is

24    above or below that line is not legible.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Did you inspect the copy of the file of the

Page 7198

 1    Prosecution, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Chairman, we could indeed

 3    ask the Prosecution if they could provide us with a better copy, but the

 4    thing is, that we have always asked for the originals as well in order to

 5    see clear, and in order to make it possible to the Defence to organise the

 6    defence in a logical manner.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  But I think the Chamber

 8    instructed both parties that if they would receive illegible documents or

 9    partly illegible documents that the first thing they should do is to

10    address the other party and even fill in the form we provided you with.

11            Mr. Stamp, it has been asked of you to have a better legible

12    copy or was there any specific complaint about P1517A?

13            MR. STAMP:  This is the first time I am hearing about a complaint.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed for the time being, Mr. Stamp.

15            MR. IERACE:

16       Q.   Mr. Taslaman, do you see a name on the document near the top left

17    of the document?

18       A.   I think it's clear and perfectly legible.  The name and the family

19    name, everything, my occupation.

20       Q.   The name that you see there, is it, you said, your name.  But is

21    it spelled correctly?

22       A.   Taslaman is the way it should be and not Teslamen.  My father is

23    Saleh, my name is and I was born in 1933 and I am a pensioner.  If it is

24    unclear to anyone, I have a mark -- I have traces of the wounds on my body

25    and I would be happy to show them.  And this refers to myself.  This

Page 7199

 1    document refers to myself.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Chairman, I would just

 3    like to clarify this.  I do apologise in advance.  As a matter of fact we

 4    have received this form from you, that is correct, but on the same day we

 5    had already submitted a request and it was communicated, it was a

 6    confidential one, it was D3441 and it included that particular page.  It

 7    is dated the 10th of April and it included this page and here the copy is

 8    even less clear than the one we've got today and we had already complained

 9    about it at the time.  Ever since, we have received nothing from the

10    Prosecution, either explanations or a better copy of the document which

11    that -- which has to be said, must be said.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, the complaint is that the document

13    provided to the Defence was even less legible as the one you are producing

14    now and this is a document on which certain parts -- looks as if there is

15    a stamp in the right upper-hand corner -- is not clearly legible either.

16    Do you have any better copies of this document or could you, as you did

17    sometimes, show what is the copy as it appears in your own file?

18            MR. STAMP:  We brought our best copy to Court.  He can inspect it

19    if he is inclined to do so.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, perhaps we -- so that is the best copy you

21    can produce?

22            MR. STAMP:  This is our original here

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, can you please first show it to Mr.

24    Piletta-Zanin and then to the Chamber.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 7200

 1                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to

 4    say this:  I have examined the documents that the Prosecution has provided

 5    us with and I notice that it is one of these documents that we term

 6     "sensitive."  It has to do with a reception of a document which was

 7    faxed in general, the kind -- this is the kind of paper that one uses for

 8    this.  I am saying this because there is obviously an original that was

 9    faxed and it is quite sure that this original was faxed and that this

10    original is much clearer than the document that was received.

11            And this is why we are demanding the original, as always, and

12    demanding that the Prosecution finally provides documents that are totally

13    clear, which is to say, the originals.  Thank you.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has the power to ask

15    for authentication of documents.  Is this document part of the evidence

16    you intend to submit to the Chamber as far as the medical documents are

17    concerned?  We know that there is a request for admission into evidence of

18    some testimony related to medical documents where in written statements

19    witnesses give their -- give information about -- is this part of it or

20    not?

21            MR. STAMP:  May I just confer?

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

24            MR. STAMP:  It is not intended to be brought in through the 92 bis

25    statements.

Page 7201

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Stamp, for your information.

 2            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we will give the decision on the admissibility.

 3    Of course, you are entitled to cross-examine the witness on the document.

 4    I think that is the first step to be taken.  May I at least make the

 5    follow observation:  That there is no absolute right of either party to

 6    receive originals of documents.  Of course, it is a different matter when

 7    the originals can be obtained, whether the parties should do their utmost

 8    best to produce these originals but there is no absolute right as such to

 9    have only original documents admitted into evidence.  May I just return

10    the documents.  Yes.

11            Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  The

13    Defence is quite aware of the fact that there are limitations, that its

14    rights are limited.  But what we would like to say is that, in spite of

15    the examination of this document, which is, in inverted commas, the best

16    the document which we have available now, we have noticed that the number

17    of protocol is not on this document.  I think that the Prosecution could

18    at least indicate the number of the protocol so that, if necessary, the

19    Defence can carry out all the necessary research.  Because these documents

20    don't have this information, at least we should be provided with this

21    information in oral manner.  Thank you in advance.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  What do you exactly mean by the number of the

23    protocol?  The hospital protocol or --

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.  We saw

25    when we were receiving other testimonies that, in each medical record for

Page 7202

 1    certain hospitals, we saw that each document had a protocol number, that

 2    is to say, what the number of the record, the medical record was, and the

 3    number of the patient was; but these documents, we don't have them and I

 4    would like this to be submitted to us and to you.  And if the Defence is

 5    to carry out its work, this technical information is absolutely essential

 6    to it for us to verify it and to carry out our cross-examination.  Thank

 7    you.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  You do not -- I see one number which seems not to

 9    relate to a date or which is just a four-digit number.  Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

10    is this --

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, concerning the

12    document that we received, since it is very -- it is not very legible, I

13    can see two dates; 1.846 and another 1.836, I think perhaps, or 1.946,

14    perhaps.  Are you talking about one of these numbers?

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As a matter of fact, in order to even make the

16    confusion greater, I would rather read it as 1346, but that is the number

17    I was referring to, yes.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As there is nothing on the

19    document, we don't know whether this is what is in question.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you are asked an oral answer from the

21    Prosecution.  Mr. Stamp, whenever you are able to give that answer, would

22    you please then do so.

23            MR. STAMP:  Very well, Mr. President.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps during the next break you could make some

25    efforts.

Page 7203

 1            MR. STAMP:

 2       Q.   Witness, where were you born?

 3       A.   I was born in Skopje.

 4       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... the next document.

 5       A.   Yes, in the right margin, and in 1933, that is the date of birth.

 6    This is certainly the record.  1.946.

 7       Q.   Ultimately the Court will have to decide whether or not it is a

 8    record, Mr. Taslaman.  Could you just answer my question for the time

 9    being.  Were you a pensioner on the 12th of June, 1993?

10       A.   Since 1978 I have been a pensioner since that year as I said.

11       Q.   Do you see pensioner written here on this document?

12       A.   Yes on the left-hand side, I can see it.

13       Q.   You said your father's name is Saleh.  Do you see Saleh written

14    here in this document?

15       A.   Yes, I do.  I can see it, in brackets.

16       Q.   Do you see the words I.M. Ratka 13, on this document?

17       A.   That is Ivice Marujica Ratka 13, yes.  That is a street, the name

18    of a street.

19       Q.   In respect, can you tell us anything about that street that you

20    mentioned, where were you living?

21       A.   I was in two locations:  Ivice Marujica Ratka number 13 and later

22    in Vase Butozana 1.  I changed two flats.

23       Q.   Thank you.  You said you were treated by Dr. Hadzir.  Do you see

24    Dr. Hadzir at the bottom of this document?

25       A.   Yes, I can see it here at the front and on this other one.  His

Page 7204

 1    name is printed:  It says Dr. Hadzir.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  You said that you could show us where -- well don't

 3    show us.  Just tell us exactly where you were injured.

 4       A.   That is evidence that will confirm this

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President I apologise for

 6    intervening again I think there is an error in the transcript I see that

 7    part of my name has been mentioned in line 15.  I don't know if this is a

 8    habit perhaps or something that the witness may actually have said.  We

 9    could ask the witness to say this again clearly to have him say what the

10    name of the street in which he lived is.  I don't know if this was an

11    error in the transcript or not.  Can you see that?  It is page 26, line

12    15.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I see it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but as you know, the

14    evening hours, the tapes are better listened, especially in respect of

15    names so that can be put properly in the English translation.  I did not

16    hear anything about your name and yes, I think proper care will be taken

17    that what the witness said will be correctly in the transcript.  I think

18    it is more or less a, how do you say this, it is more or less a --

19    it is not a detail, but it is what you hear sometimes on paper.  It

20    looks -- it may have sound almost -- phonetic, yes, that is the word I was

21    trying to find.  Thank you very much for your assistance

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is a pleasure, Mr.

23    President.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25            MR. STAMP:  Thank you Mr. President.

Page 7205

 1       Q.   I was asking about where you got injured by the fragments that

 2    day.

 3       A.   Here in my arm, on my arm.  If necessary, I can show my left leg.

 4    It is very clear evidence.

 5       Q.   Earlier you had said left thigh.

 6       A.   Please, I am quite ready.

 7       Q.   No you don't have to show us.  Which --

 8       A.   The left thigh, in my right arm.  I can show you the wounds to my

 9    arm.  If necessary, I can show it to the booth.  That is this wound.

10       Q.   Thank you.

11            MR. STAMP:  I don't know if the Court saw, but the witness did

12    indicate his left buttock area.  I don't think there is any necessity for

13    him to show us unless my friend requires it in evidence.

14       Q.   You said that there were many people injured and some dead.  Can

15    you remember who some of these people were?

16       A.   Yes.  Well I know that Dragica died.  She is someone I knew

17    personally.  And then Ibrahim Talic and his wife.

18       Q.   Let's take them one by one.  Do you know Dragica -- do you know

19    her full name?

20       A.   No, I don't.  I was a refugee in that area.

21       Q.   Do you know where she was when the mortar exploded?

22       A.   She was nearby.  I think she was supposed to be the second person

23    to enter and then a shell fell.  Part of her brain fell on me.  I was in

24    the vicinity.

25       Q.   You said Ibrahim Talic and his wife?

Page 7206

 1       A.   Ibrahim Talic, that's right.

 2       Q.   Did you speak to him that day before the incident?

 3       A.   With Ibrahim Talic?  Are you referring to him?

 4       Q.   Yes.

 5       A.   Yes, I did.  Every day he would go to collect water with his wife

 6    and he would then return home to rest.  I told him, "Ibrahim, go home,

 7    have a rest.  Rest while your wife is waiting."  He said, "Why you telling

 8    me to go?  I don't go." And that was his fate.  His fate was to die there

 9    with her.

10       Q.   Did you know any of the other people who were injured or killed

11    there?  You spoken of Dragica.

12       A.   Yes, the Mujezinovic family.  I know the man.  He lost his wife

13    and two daughters.  He will come to testify here tomorrow, too.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, I just ask whether the witness just

15    mentioned names of protected witnesses.  I have a few on my list for the

16    next coming days.

17            MR. STAMP:  No.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Then it must be in the transcript.

19            MR. STAMP:  The name that he mentioned, although it is perhaps not

20    idealist to put it on the transcript, is not the name of a protected

21    witness.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23            MR. STAMP:

24       Q.   After the 12th of July, 1993, did the pump continue in operation?

25       A.   Well, it did because we would dig wells.  I didn't dig them but

Page 7207

 1    people in Dobrinja V did.  Then in the yards and schoolyards they would

 2    dig wells in places where there were gym halls and then the line

 3    diminished here because there was another pump in operation, one at Duda

 4    Mujezinovic, so the line diminished.

 5       Q.   You said a well was dug in a schoolyard.  Can you say when this

 6    well was dug?

 7       A.   Yes.  That was after the massacre, after that massacre of ours.  I

 8    think it was half a year later.  I can't remember exactly.  That was a gym

 9    in the school that had been devastated and people broke through the

10    blackboards, through the surface, and they got to the drinking water.

11       Q.   Can you say what happened to that well that was dug at the gym?

12       A.   Well, people would go and collect drinking water there and a shell

13    fell there and five people were killed too.

14       Q.   The people who went to collect drinking water there, including the

15    five that were killed there, were they people who fought, that is

16    combatants, or were they civilians?

17       A.   They were civilians, civilians, only civilians.  But it was

18    closer.  They didn't want to go further down because that was quite far

19    away, about 800 metres from the school.

20       Q.   Could you explain what you mean when you said that they didn't

21    want to go further down because that is quite far away, could you clarify

22    that, please?

23       A.   Well, there was a series of buildings such as its place where the

24    school was and where a well had been dug.  It was in front of their

25    doors, that was Dobrinja II B or II A, and they would use water here.

Page 7208

 1    Whereas we were about 800 metres away, that is, where we went to collect

 2    water and where I was on guard.

 3       Q.   The well where five people were killed at, can you recall when

 4    this occurred, when the shelling occurred?

 5       A.   I can't remember the date because I was passing through there.  I

 6    was working as the collaborator for the television.  I would collect

 7    television subscriptions.

 8       Q.   Was it before or after the events in which you were injured on the

 9    12th of July, 1993?

10       A.   It was after.

11       Q.   Can you say about how long after?

12       A.   I think it was about half a year after that because that is when

13    they worked on it, maybe six months later.  I can't say exactly.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Approximately six months later is your answer.

15            Do you recall in September 19 -- I beg your pardon -- in September

16    2001 participating in a filming of the site at which the events that you

17    speak of today occurred?

18       A.   Yes, I do.

19       Q.   And in that film, did you show an OTP investigator certain places

20    relevant to this incident?

21       A.   Yes, I did.  I think there is a video recording where they were

22    filming --

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting,

24    but the transcript in French must be verified because we didn't ask

25    whether an investigation was carried out into certain locations relevant

Page 7209

 1    to this investigation, but only whether the witness showed the

 2    investigator certain places.  I think this is of crucial importance, thank

 3    you.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  I think proper care will be taken of your

 5    observation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for the final version of the transcript.

 6            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 7            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  With your leave,

 8    Mr. President, Your Honours, could the witness be shown, Exhibit P32

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, we will have a break in approximately five

10    minutes.  Will you be able to do your questioning on the videotape as

11    well, because otherwise it might not be fresh in the memory of the witness

12    of what he saw.  So if you could do it in four or five minutes.  If not,

13    perhaps if there is any other subjects you would like to touch, perhaps do

14    it now and play the videotape after the break so it is fresh in the memory

15    of the witness.

16            MR. STAMP:  I don't know if it would be convenient to the Court to

17    take the break now, then.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  A bit early and then not to start any new subject.

19    Yes.  Mr. Taslaman, if you would play a video now and have a break, you

20    might have forgotten about it already after the break.  So, we will have a

21    break a bit earlier than usual and the video will then be played after the

22    break.  We will have a break until a quarter past 4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

24                          --- Upon resuming at 4.17 p.m.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, you may proceed to examine the witness.

Page 7210

 1            MR. STAMP:  I am grateful, Mr. President.

 2       Q.   Mr. Taslaman, the pump in question which was shelled the 12th of

 3    July, 1993, do you know when --

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  I think we had some technical interruption but I

 5    think it is over.  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.  They started already

 6    playing the video.  That is a bit earlier than we expected.

 7            MR. STAMP:  I think I will get to the video in due course.

 8       Q.   Do you know when that pump had been installed?

 9       A.   Those are houses which before the settlement were built had

10    already been there and they had those pumps before they had any other

11    urban water supply.  Because the settlement I lived in was built in 1978,

12    24 years, that is, and there is other houses where at least -- well, more

13    than 30 years old.

14       Q.   The pump that we are speaking about where the shell fell near to

15    in July, 1993, can you say for what purpose it had been installed?

16       A.   Because there was no urban water supply and they used to get water

17    from that pump before they had water in the house.  And also afterwards

18    they used it for watering the garden.

19       Q.   Had this pump been installed before the war?

20       A.   It had existed.  All that existed before, and then it was being

21    used.  For example, I don't know, somebody had their own courtyard and

22    they would use the water from the well to water the plants rather than

23    paying for the water which came from the city waterworks.

24       Q.   Would the existence of the pump be known generally within the

25    community before the war and during the war?

Page 7211

 1       A.   Yes, it was known before the war and that is why it was targeted.

 2       Q.   Was there another pump close to where the pump that was shelled?

 3       A.   Across the street perhaps 8 to 10 metres away.

 4       Q.   And was that pump operational on the 12th of July, 1993?

 5       A.   No, it wasn't.  Because the well was being cleaned.  There was mud

 6    inside.  At Duda Mujezinovic they were cleaning the well and so the only

 7    pump in operation was the other one.

 8       Q.   Now, prior to the time at approximately 15.00 hours when the shell

 9    fell on the 12th of July, 1993, had any other shells fallen in that area

10    that day, on that particular day?

11       A.   Let me tell you.  The shelling could happen at any time.  We were

12    basically there for them on a platter, the snipers could shoot at any

13    time.  But that shell landed on that particular day and caused the

14    massacre.

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            Now, what I want to ask you, that day up until that shell had any

17    other shells fallen in the area or was that the first shell that fell in

18    the area that day, that particular day?

19       A.   On that day, the first one landed in that area where the water was

20    being pumped on that particular day.  Otherwise, there was shelling day

21    and night.

22       Q.   I take it from your answer that the first one which landed was the

23    shell which caused what you referred to as a massacre?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   You spoke about sniping which you said was something which

Page 7212

 1    happened frequently in that community.  Could you tell us about it.  From

 2    where did the sniping come?

 3       A.   That sniper fire, for the most part, came from the Hidrone

 4    settlement, from the orthodox church.  Since Dobrinja, on the way down to

 5    us, is rather low, they could shoot, the snipers could shoot, for example,

 6    from Dobrinja, from Kaledza Street [phoen] and also from Milanka Pupavica

 7    Street [phoen].  From those streets.

 8       Q.   Can you say which party to the conflict, whether it was a Bosnian

 9    Serb army or the army of Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina which controlled

10    those areas from which the sniping came?

11       A.   It was from the Republika Srpska.  It was under their control.

12       Q.   And in the vicinity of this water pump which was shelled on the

13    12th of July, 1993, were there any military facilities that you know of?

14       A.   No.  It was an exclusively civilian area.

15       Q.   Before the break, you were telling us about a video presentation

16    that you participated in.  I would like you now, with the leave of the

17    Court, to have a look at a video, which may be played.

18            MR. STAMP:  May I?

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It is P3281C.  Can the

21    video be played, please.

22                          [Videotape played]

23            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  I am not asking you to speak, but

24    could you please show me to the best of your recollection where the pump

25    was at this location on the 12th of July, 1993.

Page 7213

 1            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 2            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Can you now please show me where to

 3    the best of your recollection you were standing at the time the shell

 4    exploded on the 12th of July, 1993.

 5            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 6            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Can you now please show me by standing

 7    in the location where to the best of your recollection a line of people

 8    started on the street on the 12th of July, 1993.

 9            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

10            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Mr. Taslaman, can you now indicate by

11    pointing with your arm in which direction to the best of your recollection

12    the line of people extended on the 12th of July, 1993.

13            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

14            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  For the camera, could you please point

15    again.

16            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

17            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Thank you.  Could you please now show

18    me where to the best of your recollection the other water pump was located

19    in this area.

20            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

21            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Thank you."

22            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23       Q.   The last place you indicated in that video was a house where there

24    was another water pump located and you have told us earlier that this

25    house was across the street.  Can you say who owned that house with that

Page 7214

 1    other pump?

 2       A.   Mrs. Mujezinovic, Duda.

 3       Q.   Can you say whether or not she or anybody using that other pump

 4    was injured by the shelling or sniping that occurred during the conflict?

 5       A.   She was wounded by incendiary bullets afterwards and she spent

 6    about a fortnight at a hospital.  Her skin was burned while she was

 7    pumping water for herself.

 8       Q.   Firstly, when that shell exploded, were you sitting or standing

 9    inside the yard, can you recall?  I ask you that because I think you said

10    in answer to me that you were sitting, and on the video I think you were

11    asked to show where you were standing.  Can you recall whether you were

12    sitting or standing?

13       A.   I was there, as you saw on the video.  I showed you where I was

14    standing and I had my back turned to the doors of the grand floor.

15    Sometimes I was crouching on the floor because I didn't have any chance.

16       Q.   When you went outside after the shell exploded, can you say about

17    where the bodies of the deceased and injured people were?

18       A.   When I came out where people who had the cars had driven to take

19    people to the hospital, and I myself was taken to the hospital, in the

20    vicinity of those buildings and perhaps on both sides of the building.  I

21    don't really know because I was taken to the hospital immediately with

22    that young guy whose entrails were spilling out.  Who had also been

23    wounded.

24       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Taslaman

25            MR. STAMP:  That, if it please you, Mr. President, is the end of

Page 7215

 1    the examination in chief.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.  Is the defence ready to

 3    cross-examine the witness?  Mr. Taslaman, you will now be examined by

 4    counsel for the Defence.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.  With your leave,

 6    I would like to cross-examine the witness.

 7                          Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

 8       Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

 9            Sir, you mentioned you worked for the Civil Defence; is that

10    correct?

11       A.   Yes, that's correct.

12       Q.   Sir, you have mentioned about you had worked for the Civil Defence

13    within the framework of Dobrinja; is that correct?

14       A.   That's correct, Dobrinja.  But it was called Objekt C5, settlement

15    C5, that was the name.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            Sir, have you in your capacity as somebody who was cooperating

18    with the Civil Defence, have you had any contacts with any other members

19    from any other sections of the Civil Defence?

20       A.   There was pensioners and we worked for between three to four hours

21    and then another shift came along and then we were allowed to go home.

22       Q.   Sir, that wasn't my question.  My question was about whether you

23    had any contacts with other people, other officials from other sections,

24    other parts of the Civil Defence?  For example, whether in Alipasino

25    Polje there was somebody in charge of the Civil Defence and, in that case,

Page 7216

 1    did you have any contact between the officials from Alipasino Polje and

 2    the officials in C5?

 3       A.   Well, Alipasino Polje had no contact with us because we had our

 4    own Civil Defence in C5.  And our boss was Mevluda Mujezinovic who was the

 5    head of the Civil Defence for us.

 6       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 7            I would just like to submit a map to you and I would mention a

 8    couple of points.  But to begin with, could you tell us whether you know

 9    where the headquarters of the Civil Defence was, both for Dobrinja and for

10    C5?

11       A.   You mean you want me to show it on the map?  It is not clear.  Or

12    do I have to say that --

13       Q.   Well the question, sir, is whether you know where the headquarters

14    are and then I'll show you the map.

15       A.   The headquarters was in the street of Luja Pastera that was the

16    headquarters of the Civil Defence.

17       Q.   The headquarters of the Civil Defence for Dobrinja in general and

18    for C5?

19       A.   And the headquarters was in Dobrinja but the one I mentioned

20    before was for C5, for the suburb or settlement for C5 and the

21    headquarters was in Dobrinja.

22       Q.   Witness, I am going to ask the usher if the president allows me to

23    submit to you a map.

24            THE REGISTRAR:  D93.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] That is for the witness and this

Page 7217

 1    is a black and white copy for the other parties.  [Interpretation] Mr.

 2    President, we have simply made black and white photocopies for everybody

 3    else and there is a coloured copy for the witness for the practical

 4    reasons that you are familiar with, but of course it is one and the same

 5    map.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8       Q.   Witness do you see on the screen to your right a map, a

 9    geographical map.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taslaman, the original is to your right.  Perhaps

11    you could...

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Witness, quite simply, do you recognise this as being a map of

14    Sarajevo?

15       A.   Yes, of course.  This is the commune of Novi Grad and the Lijo

16    [phoen] to the left.

17       Q.   Okay, I am going to stop you here.  Now we can see, I believe, the

18    area which is of interest, that is to say, the airport area, do you

19    recognise this area?

20       A.   Yes I do know the streets C4 of the airport Chapika [phoen]

21    Dorica [phoen], Belmanova [phoen], Fransa Preshevna [phoen].

22       Q.   Witness, since you have recognised the map, could you now please

23    show on the map and indicate by number 1 the headquarters of the Civil

24    Defence that you said you were familiar with?  No, no, no, write.  I would

25    like to ask you once you recognised it to write this number and you have

Page 7218

 1    to check that it is the right colour.  Could you recognise the place that

 2    we are talking about on this map?

 3       A.   [Marks].

 4       Q.   Thank you.  As a consequence, could you now take a pen, please.

 5    The usher will give it to you and could you mark on this map just place

 6    number 1 on that spot.

 7       A.   [Marks].

 8       Q.   Witness, could you please write number 1 next to this mark that

 9    you have made.

10       A.   [Marks]. Yes.

11       Q.   All right then.  We will proceed differently later on.  Thank you

12    very much.

13            Would you now, Mr. Witness, mark the second centre of command by

14    marking a cross there, because otherwise we won't see it.  Put a cross on

15    this map for the second headquarters that you have mentioned.  Just place

16    a cross there, please.

17       A.   Yes, I put a circle there.

18       Q.   Could we have a finer pen, please

19            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...with a black

20    marker which is a bit thinner.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   That is very good, Witness.  Thank you very much.

23            Now, on this map, could you find, are you able to find the

24    location of the headquarters of the 5th Motorised Brigade?

25       A.   No, I can't.

Page 7219

 1       Q.   Yes, Witness, could you indicate on this map the place where the

 2    incident of the 12th of July, 1993, took place.

 3       A.   There is no street --

 4       Q.   Do please take the pointer to show it to us.  To your right.  To

 5    your right.  To your right, Witness.

 6       A.   This looks more like Dobrinja II.

 7       Q.   It is on the right side.

 8       A.   No, I don't see the street.

 9       Q.   Witness, it may well be that the name of the street is not

10    indicated, but do you recognise the area?

11       A.   I don't see the street.

12       Q.   I have understood --

13       A.   It would be somewhere around here.  This is the street of Luja

14    Pastera, the main headquarters C5.

15       Q.   Witness, do you please take this fine-tipped pen and mark by a

16    triangle the place where the incident took place.

17       A.   It would be somewhere around here because I don't see the street.

18       Q.   Do please mark that.

19       A.   [Marks]

20       Q.   Thank you.

21            Witness, could you now please show us, on the basis of your

22    memory, where the front line was in this part of town, in other words,

23    within or close to C5?

24       A.   It divided the street Akva Seremeta in C4.  On the one side were

25    the Republika Srpska people and on the other side were our armed forces

Page 7220

 1    and they were simply divided by a road.  That was where the front lines

 2    were.

 3       Q.   Witness, could you indicate or trace that front line on the map

 4    that you have to your right.

 5       A.   This was the dividing road, Akva Seremeta.  It went through the

 6    entire area but I can only see a part of that, a section of that road

 7    here, but it went all the way down to the main road.

 8       Q.   Witness, could you please draw that line, that front line, the

 9    section of that front line that went through the settlement that we are

10    interested in.   Could you take the pen and draw that front line on the

11    map.

12       A.   Do I put a cross in there?

13       Q.   No, you have to draw the entire line, the separation line, the

14    demarcation line.

15       A.   Yes, it went like this.

16       Q.   Could you continue.  Did the line stop there?

17       A.   Yes.  I don't see clear on this map.  I assumed a small section of

18    the street Akva Seremeta.

19       Q.   Are you certain, Witness, that there are no other front lines as

20    far as you know, no other demarcation lines?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Witness, could you wait, please.  Could you wait for me to finish

23    my questions.

24            You have said that, as far as you knew, the front lines separating

25    the parties were at about 250 metres, as the crow flies, away from the

Page 7221

 1    incident; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Witness, which is the front line that you are referring to, the

 4    one you drew here?

 5       A.   Yes, this one.

 6       Q.   Well, and you are absolutely certain that there are no other front

 7    lines, that there were no other front lines at the time on the 12th of

 8    July, 1993 in the vicinity of this spot?

 9       A.   There were no other front lines, just this one.

10       Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

11            In your capacity as an expert for the Civil Defence, were you

12    informed of the existence of nuclear shelters around or near Dobrinja?

13       A.   In Dobrinja III there was shelter, but over in our area, there was

14    nothing, just in Dobrinja III.

15       Q.   Could you show us, sir, where in your opinion those nuclear

16    shelters were situated?  Wait a minute.  Perhaps you could circle the area

17    so that we can find our way through this area where the nuclear shelters

18    were situated, if you can.

19       A.   It is somewhere around here.

20       Q.   Witness, could you please draw a circle around this area so that

21    we can find it later on in the transcript.  Draw a circle.

22       A.   [Marks]

23       Q.   Thank you very much.

24            So it is a circle which is close to 400 or 406, I can't read it

25    very well on the screen.

Page 7222












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 7223

 1            Witness, are there any other areas where there were nuclear

 2    shelters?

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Both numbers appear on the map.  I would clarify that

 4    it is near to 406.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I always said that the Bench

 6    could see better than I can, and this has now been confirmed.

 7       Q.   Witness, were there any other locations apart from the one you

 8    have just indicated?

 9       A.   I don't know of any other ones.

10       Q.   Witness, do you know whether these shelters were used by the

11    army?

12       A.   No, they weren't.

13       Q.   When you say, "no," I see the transcript says -- I can see the

14    entire response to this question in the transcript.  Thank you.

15            Witness, I want to return to -- we can forget the map for the

16    moment, but it can stay on the ELMO.  I have a series of different

17    questions but we will return to the map later on.

18            Witness, do you know whether at a certain point in time in this

19    conflict the two sides, the Serbian and the so-called Muslim side, do you

20    know whether these two sides reached an agreement with regard to the

21    issue of water?

22       A.   As far as I know, there was no agreement between the two sides.

23    But later on, as Dayton approached, they started -- water started

24    arriving again.  That is what happened.  I wasn't aware of an agreement

25    nor were other citizens in the area where we lived.

Page 7224

 1       Q.   Do you know whether during the period, the so-called war, do you

 2    know whether there were any interventions or any discussions with

 3    representatives of UNPROFOR and with sides in the conflict with the

 4    objective of obtaining an agreement with regard to the issue of water?

 5       A.   We didn't have any electricity so we were not able to follow

 6    these agreements because we were without electricity.  So I didn't know

 7    anything about the agreements that they tried to reach.

 8       Q.   So you don't know anything about this?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Thank you.

11            Witness, can you confirm whether at the beginning of July, at the

12    very beginning of July, 1993, and during the three weeks following that

13    date, do you know whether there were any important -- whether there were

14    any large-scale conflicts in the Sarajevo area as part of the taking of

15    Mount Igman?  Yes or no.

16       A.   I don't know because I wasn't in the battlefield so I wasn't able

17    to know and I said that the news we got was very meager, we didn't get

18    much news because we didn't have any electricity.

19       Q.   Witness, did you live at that time in Sarajevo?  I think I heard

20    you say that you did.

21       A.   Yes, I lived in Sarajevo.  But, for example, in the battlefield

22    there were barricades there and the citizens could not reach these areas.

23       Q.   Witness, I am not asking you whether you lived in Vojnicko Polje

24    or elsewhere, what I am asking you is whether you lived there.  Your

25    answer was yes.

Page 7225

 1            Did you live in the south part of Sarajevo?

 2       A.   I lived in Novi Grad municipality, in the Dobrinja area, in the C5

 3    part, the C5 sector.

 4       Q.   Thank you very much.

 5            Is it true to say that this area was an area which faced Mount

 6    Igman?

 7       A.   The area in which I lived, there were buildings in a series in the

 8    Cane Babovic Street  and I wasn't able to see Igman from there.  My flat

 9    was located in such a place that I was not able to see Igman.  I could

10    only see Dobrinja

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I please make a pause and may

12    I ask you as well, Mr. Taslaman, to just have a short break before

13    answering the question because Mr. Piletta-Zanin can understand your

14    language and you can -- if the interpreters need some time to translate

15    what Mr. Piletta-Zanin says.  So if you would look at your screen, as soon

16    as the text stops moving, then the interpreters have translated what has

17    been said and you see now it is moving presumably and when I stop talking,

18    then it continues moving for a while and then it stops.  So would you

19    please wait until then before answering the question.

20            Please proceed.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I shall bear

22    with the interpreters.

23       Q.   Witness, I didn't ask you where your flat was, but I asked you

24    whether the area in which you live faced in the direction of Mount Igman.

25    This is a question which one can answer by saying yes or no.

Page 7226

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   You have a map on your right.  Let's have a look at the map again.

 3    Could you show us on this map where Mount Igman is located with regard to

 4    Dobrinja?  Could you please do this, without marking it, please.

 5       A.   Well, Igman is in fact across the road of the airport, east of the

 6    airport tarmac.

 7       Q.   On the other side of the tarmac, does that mean to the south of

 8    the tarmac?

 9       A.   Yes, that's right.

10       Q.   Witness, would you agree with me that after the Dobrinja area and

11    the airport in general, we could say that Mount Igman is situated after

12    these locations?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Thank you very much.

15            Witness, since you lived there at that time, did you hear the

16    sound of heavy fighting in the period from the 1st of July and during the

17    following weeks, did you hear heavy fighting in order to take Mount Igman?

18       A.   No, I didn't hear anything.  At that time I had a wife that was

19    ill and a child who was seriously ill and I was spending more time with my

20    family.  I wasn't spending -- paying attention to these battlefields.

21       Q.   Witness, you said that you didn't have electricity and that the

22    media was not functioning; is that correct?  Could you confirm that,

23    please?

24       A.   Yes, that's correct.

25       Q.   So the media wasn't functioning and since this was the case you

Page 7227

 1    were not able to get any news; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Witness, if the media was not functioning for you, then the case

 4    would be the same for your neighbours; is that correct?

 5       A.   No.  If they had special electricity supplied, well I didn't.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Thank you, Witness.

 7            I would like to continue -- I would like to continue with two or

 8    three other questions.  Witness, a minute ago you said that you had seen

 9    the person who had unfortunately been hit by this shell.  Can you confirm

10    this?  I am talking about the incident of the 12th of July, 1993; yes or

11    no?  Could you please answer the question?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Witness you said that this shell hit an arm.  Can you confirm

14    this?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            And was this a woman's arm, can you confirm this too, please?

18       A.   Yes, that's correct, her surname was Simic or something like that.

19       Q.   Thank you very much.

20            Witness, you spoke about, just a minute ago when responding to one

21    of the Prosecution's question, you said that it was a shell that had been

22    fired by the adversary.  Witness, are you a ballistics expert?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Witness, have you ever fired shells yourself?

25       A.   I have been retired since 1978.

Page 7228

 1       Q.   That wasn't my question.  Sorry to interrupt you.  I am asking you

 2    whether in the course of your life you have ever fired a shell:  Yes or

 3    no?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Do you know what a ballistic ellipsis is?

 6       A.   No, I don't.

 7       Q.   Do you know what the margin of error is when firing -- very well.

 8    Witness, how can you know since you are not an expert?  How can you know

 9    that this shell came from the adversary's camp?  How can you know this

10    for certain?

11       A.   Well, there was a commissioner that investigated this later.  I am

12    not an expert in these matters.

13       Q.   Very well.

14            So you are telling us that this was the result of someone else's

15    opinion; is that correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Witness, do you know whether an order was issued by the

18    authorities, by the municipal authorities, I think, to avoid the grouping

19    of a number of persons?

20       A.   People would not gather in one position.  They would enter the

21    buildings, the stairways and this is where they could go.  Then when the

22    canisters were brought, the plastic containers, then they would approach

23    too.

24       Q.   But do you know whether there was an official instruction to the

25    effect that too many people should not gather together in certain places

Page 7229

 1    in the town?

 2       A.   In the town of Sarajevo, no, I didn't have the opportunity of

 3    hearing this because I didn't have any electricity in the place where I

 4    was living.

 5       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

 6            Can you tell us when this committee that you mentioned assembled

 7    and when it presented the conclusions it had arrived at?

 8       A.   After the incident that took place.

 9       Q.   Yes, Witness.  I hope that it wasn't before the incident.  But my

10    question was related to the date; was it six months later, was it

11    immediately after the incident, et cetera.

12       A.   After the incident.  As soon as I went to the hospital, the police

13    then came and the investigation was carried out immediately.  They are not

14    going to carry out an investigation six months late.

15       Q.   Were you yourself questioned by this committee?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Do you know why?

18       A.   I was in hospital.

19       Q.   After you had been discharged from the hospital, and I think you

20    were there for only three days.

21       A.   The committee didn't come to see me but these people from the

22    international did.  I was in the Ministry of the Interior at first.

23       Q.   When did this take place?  Could you be precise?

24       A.   Well, there was traffic.  It was possible to go into town at that

25    time and these international representatives had turned up.

Page 7230

 1       Q.   Could you be more precise?  Could you give us some dates or tell

 2    us about the approximate duration after the incident?

 3       A.   Well, you have the statements there which I have signed.

 4       Q.   I don't know what you have signed but I am asking you a question,

 5    Witness.  I would simply like to know whether, as far as you can remember

 6    today, I would clearly like to know whether you remember what you have

 7    spoken about, what you indicated.

 8       A.   What I said so far, yes, I remember all of that.  But when I gave

 9    the statement, no, I don't remember that.

10       Q.   Very well.

11            So then is it right to consider that you don't remember this

12    clearly today; is that correct?

13       A.   I don't remember the date.

14       Q.   Yes, I am referring to the dates.  Very well, thank you, Witness.

15            I would like to -- thank you for the booths.  I would like to

16    return to something else that you mentioned in your statement.  Could you

17    please formulate that answer.

18       A.   About the well, I know when they were digging it.  That was in the

19    gym in the school and people would collect water there so as not to have

20    to go very far.  It was nearer for them there and there was a massacre

21    there; a shell fell and five people were killed.

22       Q.   I will interrupt you then, excuse me, but can you tell me what the

23    name of that school was?

24       A.   I can't remember the name because that school had a different

25    name.  Now the name is different again.  I can't remember.

Page 7231

 1       Q.   So you don't remember the former name?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Thank you.

 4            Witness, do you know whether it was a technical school or a high

 5    school or a school for young children?

 6       A.   It was a primary school.

 7       Q.   Very well.

 8            And was the school functioning as an institution at the time?  And

 9    I am referring to July 1993.

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Thank you.

12            Witness, do you know whether this school and I am referring to the

13    premises of the school, do you know whether they were used for other

14    objectives, other than to give lessens?

15       A.   No, it was not possible to use it because we didn't have any fuel

16    for heating.  We had no means of cooking food.

17       Q.   Mr. Witness, I am not talking about lessons.

18       A.   Nothing was used.  That was a deserted building.

19       Q.   Witness, could you please, as we are talking about a deserted

20    school, could you please indicate on the map where the school was

21    located?  Would this be possible?  I can show you -- I think that we need

22    the assistance of the usher.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please assist, Mr. Usher.

24       A.   It should be here between the Dobrinja Hospital, somewhere here.

25    That is where the school was.

Page 7232

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Very well.

 3            Witness, could you indicate it by marking it with the letter E?

 4    Could you mark it with the letter E?

 5       A.   Well it's very small.  Very small and there is no street to help

 6    one find one's bearings.

 7       Q.   Thank you very much.  Thank you, Witness, for your help.

 8            Witness, given that you worked for the Civil Defence, do you know

 9    whether the army gave orders to the Civil Defence?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   When you say "no," does that mean that you didn't know or that the

12    army didn't give any orders?

13       A.   No, the army had nothing to do with the Civil Defence.

14       Q.   The Civil Defence, did it participate in the elaboration of the

15    second line of defence from a distance or from a proximity?

16       A.   The Civil Defence distributed humanitarian aid and assigned people

17    to go on duty where the water was being distributed.  These were people

18    who were fairly old, over 65 years of age, 66 and on.

19       Q.   Thank you.

20            Witness, who helped the army in digging the trenches, do you know

21    anything about this?

22       A.   No, I don't.

23       Q.   Witness, do you know whether civilians were engaged to participate

24    in the digging of trenches?

25       A.   They were younger people for sure.  I didn't participate in this

Page 7233

 1    and I didn't have such a role in the local commune.  My role was --

 2       Q.   Witness, I have to interrupt you.  Do you know whether civilians

 3    participated in digging the trenches; yes or no?

 4       A.   Perhaps younger people, but no one of my age.  I don't know.

 5       Q.   Very well.

 6            But I am not talking about people of your age.  Did you see any

 7    civilians who were participating in this war effort, that is to say, were

 8    digging trenches?

 9       A.   Perhaps the main Civil Defence, but I didn't have any contact with

10    them because no trenches were dug in the place where I lived.

11       Q.   Very well.

12            So, Witness, would it be correct -- I apologise.  Excuse me.

13    Witness, would you agree with me that the Civil Defence in general could

14    have participated in this defence task, in general terms?

15       A.   Maybe, but I didn't know anything about that because I wasn't part

16    of that formation.  As I said, I was on duty at the pump --

17       Q.   Very well, thank you.

18            Witness, I am going to present to you -- just a minute, please.

19                          [Defence counsel confer]

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Yes, Witness, do you know what the military formation was, which

22    military formation supervised the sectors that we are talking about, that

23    is to say, Dobrinja E, C5, do you know what military formation supervised

24    this?

25       A.   No, I don't know which formations did that.

Page 7234

 1       Q.   Very well.  Usher, I am going to ask for your assistance to

 2    present this document.  I think there is a sufficient number of copies for

 3    everyone.  Thank you.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  D94.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do not read the language which

 6    we find on this document.  I see that there is no translation but if it

 7    would be --

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Yes.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  -- but you are asking about details of the subject

10    just touched upon.

11            Could you perhaps please take the earphones from the witness, from

12    his head.

13            This seems to be a military document but we have now consistently

14    heard the answer of the witness that he had no contact, he didn't know

15    what part of the army was responsible for that area.  I hope, and I

16    certainly would regret if you would continue asking him about things he

17    testified again and again that he didn't know anything about.  And I will

18     -- I think that would be useless, but of course I can't read it.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you will be

20    given a response but this is from the 5th Motorised Brigade, this is

21    where the document comes from.  The question I am interested in, I would

22    like the witness to read a few lines below and have this -- these lines

23    translated into English to show that it comes from a military document.

24    It will be translated and, on the basis of that, I will ask another

25    question.  So we are talking about the second line of the three lines

Page 7235

 1    that we have here below.  This is what interests me in particular.  I

 2    won't mention the name here.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  It is a subject of which the witness just testified

 4    that he doesn't know anything about?

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7            MR. STAMP:  The difficulty I would raise --

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, there is difficulties in reading.  As you

 9    know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we especially in relation with the context,

10    especially of these short documents, we ask the Defence to provide with a

11    translation.  So therefore we will perhaps just first put your questions

12    to the witness, but then give us perhaps, if you are able to do so, to

13    give us a -- first of all, a general, I would say, summary of what the

14    document is about and I can't imagine that Mr. Stamp would not even be

15    happy to have just a summary but he would like to have a translation.

16    We discussed this before.  I don't know what efforts you took to get a

17    translation.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, we still don't have a

19    translation in the form desired by Mr. Stamp.  But here it is just a

20    matter of establishing the dates and the formations of the various units

21    that are of interest to the Defence.  One is with regard to the second

22    line.  Mr. President, I can't mention the name for a very simple reason

23    that you are all familiar with, but as soon as I get the translation, I

24    will let Mr. Stamp have it.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... ask the witness

Page 7236

 1    on whether he knows anything about the subject covered by these documents

 2    because --

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  -- then we don't have continue with the document.

 5    You have not answered my question what efforts you made in order to get

 6    the document translated.  You confirmed that there was no translation, but

 7    what efforts you took to have it translated, I have heard no answer yet.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I didn't deal with that

 9    particular problem, Mr. President.  I can talk it over with my colleague

10    and I will give you a reply shortly.  I don't really know, but we will

11    look into it in a moment, if you authorise us to do so.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14       Q.   Could you just pick up your headphones?  Thank you, Witness.

15            Witness, you have in front of you the document that is going to

16    be submitted to you.  Can you see it?  Witness?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Quite simply, is this is a document which formally comes from the

19    command of the 5th Motorised Brigade, on the basis of what you can see

20    written on the document, of course?  Witness?

21            MR. STAMP:  [Previous translation continues]... can the witness

22    identify the document?  Does he know anything about the document?

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is the first question you have to ask him.

24    If you provide us with a translation, we can all read what it says,

25    whether it is of the 5th Motorised Brigade.

Page 7237

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right, then, I will

 2    proceed differently.

 3       Q.   Witness, on the basis of the principle that this document comes

 4    from the command of the 5th Motorised Brigade, would you please read the

 5    line -- could you please read the line starting by a date which is the

 6    date of the 22nd of May, 1992.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I instructed you to first ask the

 8    witness in general whether he knows anything about what the subject

 9    perhaps that this particular -- so first let's ask whether he has any

10    knowledge of what you would like to tell him about

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite.  That is what I

12    was going to do by asking the witness to read the first line.

13       Q.   Witness, do you know anything about what is mentioned in this

14    document, that is to say, the period of time where a number of units or

15    entities were set up such as the Territorial Defence in Dobrinja?

16       A.   No, I am not familiar with it.

17       Q.   You do not know when it was set up in Dobrinja?

18       A.   I don't know.

19       Q.   Well, as a consequence it doesn't make sense for me to have the

20    witness read this document and we won't submit it in relation to this

21    witness, because the Witness is not familiar and does not know about the

22    setting up of the Territorial Defence in Dobrinja.

23            Witness, do you know where the police headquarters was in

24    Dobrinja?

25       A.   Well, I have come here as a witness to a specific massacre and you

Page 7238

 1    are asking me questions which have nothing to do with it.

 2                          [Defence counsel confer]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taslaman, you have been called as a witness by

 4    the Prosecution because the Prosecution expects you to tell us about the

 5    massacre.  Since you are here the Defence might be interested to hear from

 6    you whatever knowledge you may have which might be of importance for the

 7    Defence and which might not directly relate to the questions that have

 8    been put to you by the Prosecution.  The Defence is entitled to do so, so

 9    if you know anything about what the Defence asks you, tell us so that the

10    Chamber also will hear your answers.

11            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Witness, could you reply to this question:  Did you know where the

14    police headquarters was at the time?

15       A.   I did not, no.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            Witness, do you know whether at the time when these events took

18    place, do you know whether the armed forces had or did not have equipment

19    and uniforms?

20       A.   They did have uniforms, nothing else.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            Witness, I'd like to continue with other questions.  Could you

23    show on this map -- no.  First of all, I withdraw this question.  I will

24    rephrase it.

25            Do you know where was the entry into the tunnel which to a certain

Page 7239

 1    extent went beneath the airport -- below the runways of the airport and

 2    coming out on the other side of the airport?  Did you know where the entry

 3    into the tunnel was?

 4       A.   Well, after the massacre, the digging of the tunnel started five

 5    or six months after that.  Well it did exist.  I can't tell you any lies

 6    because that is where the foreign representatives went through and

 7    everybody and that tunnel saved Dobrinja by bringing food through the

 8    tunnel.

 9       Q.   Witness, since you are referring to food I am going to talk about

10    restaurants.  Do you know of the restaurant Sunsis [phoen]?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   You have never heard of a Sunsis [phoen] Restaurant in Sarajevo?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Do you know if there is a shopping centre where there could have

15    been a restaurant similar to the name of Sunsis [phoen]?

16       A.   You mean in Dobrinja?

17       Q.   Quite.

18       A.   There was no shopping centre in Dobrinja.

19       Q.   Do you know whether in that shopping centre there was a special

20    penitentiary unit, a special prison?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   When you say "no," you said that you did not know or that it

23    wasn't there, a special prison?

24       A.   I don't know.

25       Q.   Thank you.

Page 7240

 1            Witness, I am going to show you a couple of pictures.  Could we

 2    look at P1386, it is a set of photos which have already been submitted for

 3    another dossier.

 4            But before we do that, I am going to try to ask another question

 5    of the witness to gain time.  What is, generally speaking, the colour of

 6    the licence plates in Sarajevo?  Is it white?

 7       A.   Yes, white.  White, and then the letters of the alphabet.  We no

 8    longer have licence plates indicated the place names, Sarajevo, Banja Luka

 9    what-have-you.  Just the alphabet.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Madam, there this

11    set for you here.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Registrar is still trying to

13    find it.  It is not just a matter of having the copy but also the matter

14    of relating it to other witnesses.  We don't know exactly when it was

15    tendered and admitted into evidence.  If there is another subject that you

16    could deal with and in the meanwhile, Madam Registrar will find it for

17    us.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will be pleased to do

19    so whilst waiting.  And at any rate, if we need it, the document is there,

20    for the time being, I will continue with my cross-examination of the

21    witness.  Thank you very much.

22       Q.   Witness, since you were in the Civil Defence, do you know where

23    the barracks, the soldiers' barracks were situated?

24       A.   There were no barracks there, as far as I know, because those were

25    residential buildings.

Page 7241

 1       Q.   Witness, but you do know and you do agree with me that there were

 2    soldiers in this area that you were living in; is that correct?

 3       A.   There were people who would travel to the front line, but there

 4    are no barracks.  For example, people lived with their own families but

 5    there were no barracks there.

 6       Q.   Witness, were did these people sleep at night?  I mean, okay, they

 7    spent a day at the front line and where did they spend the night, where

 8    did they sleep the next day?

 9       A.   At their homes, with their families.  Where else?

10       Q.   I don't know, that is the question I am putting to you.  Where did

11    they have their meals?  Were there any canteens there?

12       A.   I suppose they must have had restaurants someplace but they were

13    given food.  I suppose they could get food from their families because

14    there were no real kitchens and there were no barracks for the army.

15       Q.   Witness, have you yourself seen any soldiers, either one or two

16    in groups, carrying arms, in Sarajevo?

17       A.   Do you mean in the city of Sarajevo or in Dobrinja?

18       Q.   Both.  One or the other.

19       A.   I did not go into Sarajevo because there were barricades at

20    Vojnicko Polje.  That is something I've already said.  The soldiers who

21    were in Dobrinja did go to the front line.  I don't know if they were

22    armed, but they didn't carry arms through the settlement where I lived.

23       Q.   In Dobrinja?

24       A.   Yes, I did say that.  They didn't carry any arms.  Perhaps when

25    they went and were on duty at the front line, I suppose they had arms

Page 7242

 1    there.

 2       Q.   Witness, do you know whether the Territorial Defence had any

 3    presence in Dobrinja?

 4       A.   I have no idea.

 5       Q.   Thank you.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  We even have difficulties in finding a date when it

 7    was tendered.  So perhaps if you could just show it to the Chamber.

 8    Perhaps it comes back to our memory.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, the date was

10    not mentioned by the Prosecution, but the actual document is 1386P.

11                          [Trial Chamber confers]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  What I see, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is that it is

13    indicated that 1386 is going to be -- at least, it is expected to be

14    tendered if witness Jusuf Spajic will testify in this court.  I don't know

15     -- that is where I find it on my list and the Registry has really great

16    difficulties in finding that it ever has been admitted into evidence.  It

17    has not.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  No.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please -- perhaps my recollection will

20    help me.  If the document is -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

21            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but

22    I can hear no translation.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's first see that we can understand each

24    other again.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry, but

Page 7243

 1    since I looked at P and so on and so forth, I don't have it any more, it

 2    is you who have the document now, but I worked on the assumption that it

 3    had already been tendered.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  This had left your --

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm sorry, I have it.

 6    I do apologise.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please give it to the usher first so that

 8    he can give it to the Registry so that we will see whether our memory can

 9    assist us.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether --

11                          [Trial Chamber confers]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  It is in none of the Judges' recollection that we

13    have seen this document before.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, we will

15    look through the list.  I am very sorry but this is a document coming from

16    the Prosecution which bears a stamp, as you can see, and it may well be

17    that it had not been produced.  But it doesn't really matter.  We can

18    tender --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... if you want to

20    tender it as a Defence Exhibit because you think you need it in relation

21    to the testimony of this witness.  But you would have -- well, of course,

22    then you might have no copies prepared as well?

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, since we worked on the

24    assumption that it had already been tendered.  I would just like to show

25    these --

Page 7244

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Bench is certainly

 3    correct.  I apologise.  May I have the document back, madam.

 4            Thank you very much.  We are going to proceed if the Bench

 5    authorises me to do so.  I will put the photos on the screen so that

 6    everybody can see them --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- and in that way we will all

 9    know what we are talking about.  I would like to put 00269704 on the

10    screen.

11            MR. STAMP:  May I respectfully ask if before that is done, if I

12    can have a brief look at the --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course, you may.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You can have the copy for Mr.

15    Stamp.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is not -- may I see the

17    copies?  I am not fully aware of -- do you want to indicate that this is

18    the copies that you received?

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] These are the copies that we

20    had received at the beginning.  I am not sure.  But it doesn't really

21    matter.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we want to pay serious attention

23    to bad copies.  We don't want you to make this courtroom your playground.

24    We are not interested in having illegible copies.

25            Madam Registrar, would you please have it returned to Mr.

Page 7245

 1    Piletta-Zanin.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. President.

 3    What I was asking for was for this document to be put on the screen, the

 4    one that the Prosecution has at the moment.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have inspected it?  Yes.  Please put it on

 6    the ELMO.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, it just so

 8    happens that the documents that we've got here are the ones that we

 9    initially received from the Prosecution.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I told you that I will not allow

11    you to make this courtroom your playground.  I will and this Chamber, the

12    proper -- will pay proper attention to bad copies and just as we blame the

13    Prosecution for providing copies which have not been checked as to the

14    legibility or as to the quality, we are not amused by reciprocal -- well

15    almost and I don't want any further comment on it as well.  I made quite

16    clear to you that presenting bad pages to the Chamber is of no use and is

17    not appropriate.  I don't want any further comment.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed with the cross-examination of this

20    witness

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we have the photos now

22    on the screen.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Witness, is this a picture taken as far as you can remember after

Page 7246

 1    the incident that we are talking about?

 2       A.   I am familiar with this picture.  This is around where the water

 3    was being taken, but who took the picture, I don't know, I wasn't present.

 4    Because once again as I have already said, I was hospitalized.

 5       Q.   Could you confirm that this is the place, this is the place where

 6    this incident would have happened to the best of your knowledge?

 7       A.   Yes, approximately, that's the location.

 8       Q.   Witness, I would like for you to be shown another series of

 9    pictures, but before we move on, let me ask you whether you can see on

10    this photo a mineralogical plate -- a licence plate, sorry.

11       A.   I don't see any licence plates.

12       Q.   Do you see if the canisters are damaged in this photo?

13    Can you show us where?

14       A.   I can't show you.  All I can see that they are in that carriage

15    down there in the direction of the water but I don't see where the damage

16    is.

17       Q.   Do you see a single canister which is supposed to be damaged?

18       A.   If that dot -- yeah, there in the carriage.

19       Q.   Fine.  Could you describe the extent of damage that you have just

20    shown?

21       A.   Well, let me tell you, I was among the first people taken to the

22    hospital.

23       Q.   No, Witness, I am asking you whether you could see any water

24    recipients which were damaged on this photo and, if so, which ones; and if

25    you can, could you perhaps describe the way in which these recipients were

Page 7247

 1    damaged?

 2       A.   It is not clear to me.  Perhaps it was the part further up and

 3    the shell landed further down.

 4       Q.   I have heard you say in your own language, "I cannot," which did

 5    not appear in the transcript.  So for the purposes of the transcript, I

 6    did hear you say, "I cannot."  Can you please turn the pages of this

 7    document and show us the next page, please.

 8            Witness, can you see on this picture any legible licence plates?

 9    Yes or no.

10       A.   I can see something, but those are the old Sarajevo licence

11    plates.  SA --

12       Q.   Could you show us on the screen where exactly you can see that,

13    on the car.  Could you read what you can see there, if you do see

14    something?

15       A.   It is a hazy picture.

16       Q.   If you are unable to read it, tell us.

17       A.   I can't, it is hazy.  I can't read it.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]  Usher, could you continue on

19    to the next picture, please.  The next one, please.

20       Q.   Do you find it easier to read it on this picture?

21       A.   I can see scattered canisters, a damaged car, I don't see what

22    this is.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The next picture, please.

24    The next one.  I am sorry.  Continue.  The previous one, rather.  Right

25    there.

Page 7248

 1       Q.   Witness, can you see the licence plates of this car?

 2       A.   I don't see them.

 3       Q.   Can you read them?

 4       A.   No, I don't see them.

 5       Q.   Fine.

 6       A.   I can't read something which doesn't exist.  I can tell you that

 7    I can see the chairs and the table.

 8       Q.   Yes, thank you.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  This concludes the cross-examination?

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I have already mentioned

12    no further questions, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, before we have a break, could you please

14    inform the Chamber whether there is any need to re-examine the witness.

15            MR. STAMP:  There will be.  Having regard to those photographs, I

16    think we might well use the opportunity over the break to regularise that

17    and  get some more copies for the Court.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if that would be possible, I think the Defence

19    would be grateful if you would do so and you might have prepared them

20    already.

21            Mr. Taslaman, since there are some more questions to be put to you

22    by counsel for the Prosecution and perhaps also by the Judges, I

23    don't know yet, we will have a break until 10 minutes past 6.00 and we

24    will adjourn until 10 past.

25                          --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m

Page 7249

 1                          --- Upon resuming at 6.14 p.m.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp.  Are you ready to re-examine the witness?

 3            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                          Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

 5       Q.   In the course of your evidence, you were asked to mark a map, Mr.

 6    Taslaman.  Could you say whether or not you have any special training or

 7    experience in map reading?

 8       A.   No, I haven't.  I was a machinist for the railways.  Nothing to do

 9    with maps.

10       Q.   The places that you marked on the map, then, would it be correct

11    to say that they are mere estimations of where you believe places are?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   You said at one time that the shell hit a lady's arm or hit some

14    part of a lady's body.  Did you actually see this or was it something

15    that you heard of later on?

16       A.   Something that I heard later on because I was taken to hospital.

17       Q.   And finally, can you recall if, when you were in hospital, if you

18    were spoken to by any member of the police service?

19       A.   I can't remember.  I don't remember speaking to a member of the

20    police.

21            MR. STAMP:  If that would please you, Mr. President, Your Honours,

22    that would be the re-examination.  I was hoping that by now I would have

23    been able to provide copies of the document that was shown so that we

24    could have the witness have a look at everything while everyone had

25    copies.  However, we are not in a position to do so now and we will do so

Page 7250

 1    at a time when it is scheduled to be done.  If I may just have a moment.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 3                               [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President, that is all.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taslaman, I have got one question for you.

 6    Could perhaps the Exhibit or the document P1517A be shown again to the

 7    witness.

 8                          Questioned by the Court:

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taslaman, you have answered some questions about

10    this document.  Have you ever seen this document before?

11       A.   I have.  I have such a document when I was discharged from the

12    hospital.  This is diagnosis that says that I had been admitted to

13    hospital.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  And is this document the same as the document you

15    received when you were discharged from the hospital?

16       A.   Yes, it is.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for your answers.  Mr. Taslaman,

18    this concludes your testimony you've given in this court.  I know it is a

19    very long way to come from Sarajevo to The Hague.  It is a long journey.

20    I hope you understand that it is very important for this Chamber to hear

21    the testimony of those who have been present during those years in

22    Sarajevo and to hear their answers to both the questions of the

23    Prosecution and the questions of the Defence and additional questions from

24    the Judges because it will assist us in performing our task.

25            So, we would like to thank you very much for having come to The

Page 7251

 1    Hague and I hope that you will return home safely.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please lead Mr. Taslaman out of

 4    the courtroom.

 5                          [The witness withdrew]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

 7            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.  With your

 8    permission, I would just like to deal with an issue which arose with

 9    regard to certain documents when my colleague wanted them to be shown to

10    our colleague, Mr. Stamp.  We received from our colleagues the document

11    1517.  We have a list which we received on the 12th of April and we have

12    the following witnesses; Pasa Menemda [phoen] and two others.  We have the

13    following documents:  The Defence's interpretation, since it states 1517

14    since that is the number stated, we were preparing ourselves for the

15    hearing and we took the document 1517.  In this document -- and I'm saying

16    this because I want to avoid situations of this kind in the future -- in

17    this document there is a photograph which I asked my colleague to show to

18    Mr. Stamp since we didn't know which document, which photo document was in

19    question.  The copy that we gave you for the witness was for you and the

20    witness to have a look at.  It was legible.  So the Defence's intention

21    was not at any time to cause an incident in the Trial Chamber.  I would

22    like, accordingly, to say which documents will be tendered into evidence

23    out of 1517.  Every document under 1517 has its own page.  My colleagues

24    could have noted and that 1517 would be admitted but that it would be a

25    medical document.

Page 7252

 1            I wouldn't want you to think that the Defence had the intention of

 2    presenting documents to the Trial Chamber, documents which were not

 3    appropriate.  We would just like to indicate that this document for the

 4    Defence, 1517, this is the document.  This is the document I took.  I

 5    thought that this was the document that my colleagues wanted to have

 6    tendered into evidence, however, I don't understand why this

 7    misunderstanding arose today and, in order to avoid future

 8    misunderstandings, I would ask my colleagues -- we'll have this document

 9    for Blagic [phoen] and Mekolic [phoen] for these witnesses.  These are

10    documents which the Defence has.  They are about 30 pages and it contains

11    photo documentation too.  So I do not understand what my colleagues intend

12    to tender as evidence.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, as I have instructed the parties again

14    and again is that these kinds of issues should be settled during the

15    breaks, during the weekends, at night, but not in court.  If there is any

16    document which you can't read, ask the Prosecution first. If you say I've

17    got a set of documents and well, I can't distinguish them because they are

18    all black, then you ask to the Prosecution what these documents are about.

19      You inspect the originals or you ask for better copies and as soon as

20    you show them entirely black copies, and if they would refuse to give you

21    any better copies, then just address the Chamber and we will see what to

22    do with it.

23            But we are not going to spend time in court about that.  If it

24    becomes unclear 1517 for three witnesses, which will be tendered or not,

25    then ask them what is on these photographs so that you do know before we

Page 7253

 1    enter into this courtroom.  That is -- I don't -- and this Chamber don't

 2    want to be confronted with problems if the parties have not first tried to

 3    solve them.  Especially these kind of practical problems.  Let us forget

 4    as soon as possible about black page being given to the Court for whatever

 5    reason.  It should have been done out of court and if it is done in court,

 6    that is one mistake and if you do not check them before giving them to the

 7    Chamber, it is another mistake.  Let's forget about it.  We are not here

 8    to see whether we can exploit problems, but whether we can solve problems.

 9            If that is an answer to our observation.

10            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, could you please guide us as

12    far as the documents are concerned.

13            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1517A, medical documentation B/C/S --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  I have a

16    very serious objection to raise.  In order to be able to develop this

17    objection I should be in a position to show you very clear copies of other

18    documents that I have so that everyone can understand why we are raising

19    this objection here.  I didn't want to mention this just a minute ago

20    because it seems that the witness in question is a protected witness and I

21    didn't want to cause any problems of any kind because we are not here to

22    create problems.

23            But what we could do on the basis of this document which I would

24    like to show everyone and which I will not show on the screen for the

25    moment because it contains names which -- the names of protected

Page 7254

 1    individuals, we could state why we are raising objection to the

 2    presentation of this document.  If we should go into closed session, I

 3    don't know.  This is for you to decide before I continue with this

 4    objection.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  If the -- if show the other document is really

 6    material for your objection, I think we should turn in closed session.

 7                                [Closed session]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 7255












12   Pages 7255  redacted, closed session.














Page 7256












12 Pages 7256  redacted, closed session.














Page 7257

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13                          [Open session]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are in open session again.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1517A.1, English translation.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Also admitted.

17            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3281C, video.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D93, map marked by witness.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Also admitted into evidence.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D94, a booklet containing photographs,

22    B/C/S.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is also admitted into evidence.  And --

24    yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

25            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence didn't

Page 7258

 1    want to suggest this document of photographs to be tendered as evidence

 2    since we only have the one copy.  We can make copies of these photographs

 3    because, in future, we won't be able to work with other witnesses.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it, Mr. Stamp, that since you were

 5    preparing for admitting into evidence these photographs that -- or did you

 6    not yet finish that?  But I would rather not.  If the document is admitted

 7    into evidence, I would rather not break the chain of custody and give it

 8    to one of the parties.

 9            MR. STAMP:  I think -- perhaps if we could agree, we could supply

10    the Defence with another set sometime tomorrow or this week or --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12            MR. STAMP:  -- if the Defence does not want it to go into

13    evidence, we do not object to them withdrawing it, because we do intend to

14    present this document at a later date and ask that it be received in

15    evidence.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  What we could do is perhaps -- it has been tendered

17    in evidence now.  It is just a matter of who is going to provide the

18    copies.  Since the Defence has no copies any more.  I am aware that the

19    Prosecution might have better facilities to prepare copies, although there

20    is a lot of complaints about it.

21            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't want to

22    tender this document into evidence.  We just wanted to show it to the

23    witness.  We wanted to show this document to the witness so that he could

24    recognise it.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what questions have you put to him in respect

Page 7259

 1    of these documents.  It was not just showing whether he recognised it.

 2    There was quite a lot of -- and apart from that, part of the testimony of

 3    the witness becomes not well understandable if these documents are not

 4    admitted into evidence.  So I think the Court needs the documents, the

 5    Chamber needs them and --

 6            MR. STAMP:  We have copies here of the documents with

 7    translations.  I don't know if we could present these to the Defence and

 8    perhaps an agreement can be arrived at.  We have reproductions of the

 9    document presented by the Defence.  These reproductions are not laminated,

10    I think the expression is.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes. If, they're clear copies, also of the

12    photographs with the translations, then --

13            MR. STAMP:  Perhaps the Defence could have a look at them.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you give one copy to Mr.

15    Piletta-Zanin?   Let me do it otherwise.  I would like to hear by tomorrow

16    in which may this evidence will be tendered let's not -- I mean -- so we

17    do not take any decision this very moment, but let's not spend more time

18    on it in court.  Mr. Usher gets tired from transporting the copies from

19    one side of the courtroom to the other.

20            Madam Registrar, the decision is therefore not taking yet on D93,

21    it was?  D94, I apologise.  Is there no other documents, then, Mr. Stamp,

22    is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

23            MR. STAMP:  Indeed we are, Mr. President and that is Husein

24    Grebic.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, would you please guide the witness into

Page 7260

 1    the courtroom.

 2            Can you hear me in a language you understand?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  I just assume that you are Mr. Grebic.  Mr. Grebic,

 5    before giving testimony of this court the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

 6    require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth,

 7    the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  The text of this solemn

 8    declaration will be given to you now by the usher.  May I invite you to

 9    make that declaration.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Grebic.  I already announced

13    to you that your testimony today will not last much longer than a quarter

14    of an hour but since we try to use our time as efficiently as possible, we

15    nevertheless asked the Prosecution to call you at this very moment, but

16    presumably your testimony -- your examination will continue tomorrow.  You

17    will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution. Mr. Stamp, please

18    proceed.

19            Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise for raising this

21    matter in the presence of the witness, but I have to do so.  The Defence

22    wants to say that it intervened with the Prosecution in order to ask what

23    was the case with the documents that it wanted to submit.  Because on the

24    10th of April they said they would be presenting a certain series of

25    documents perhaps as evidence and then it seems on the 12th that it would

Page 7261

 1    present other documents.  So the Defence has been running after documents.

 2    I have written to the Prosecution.  We have written to them in order to

 3    obtain a clear and definitive answer and I think it would be good if we

 4    could obtain this answer.  I regret having to ask these questions in the

 5    Trial Chamber.  But as we have received no reply, I am obliged to do so.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  It is relevant in view of the witness to be examined

 7    at this moment?  Is it once again 1517?

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not only 1517 but also 162,

 9    Mr. President.  And these are documents which I listed in a letter of the

10    10th of April for the period of the 11th to the 12th of April, 1992.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest to the parties that we will now start the

12    examination-in-chief and we have only one quarter of an hour left and

13    then you have from 7.00 until quarter past 2.00 tomorrow to see whether

14    you can solve the problem or not. If not, I would like to hear from you by

15    a quarter past 2.00 or during the first break.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

18                          WITNESS:  Husein Grebic

19                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                          Examined by Mr. Stamp:

21       Q.   Is your name Husein Grebic?

22       A.   Yes, my name is Husein Grebic.

23       Q.   What is your occupation, Mr. Grebic?

24       A.   I am a salesman and I work in trade.

25       Q.   And where do you live?

Page 7262

 1       A.   I live in Sarajevo, in the Dobrinja district.

 2       Q.   During the conflict that took place in Sarajevo in the early

 3    1990s, where did you live?

 4       A.   In the beginning of the '90s, I used to live in Sarajevo in my own

 5    flat which was a part of Dobrinja IV, at the Gandhi Street, number 2,

 6    floor number 1, apartment number 5.

 7       Q.   And did you --

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Chairman, Mr. President --

10    no, I withdraw.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

12            MR. STAMP:

13       Q.   And though you might not have lived at the same place, did you

14    continue to live in Sarajevo during this period?

15       A.   I lived in Dobrinja IV, district number 5, in my own flat, up

16    until the 13th of May, 1992.

17       Q.   After that, did you -- did you remain in Dobrinja or did you move

18    out of Dobrinja?

19       A.    I moved into town and I was there until the beginning of June and

20    then I went to Dobrinja II and Milesta Street, number 7.

21       Q.   In the course of the conflict?

22       A.   Yes.

23            MR. STAMP:  I am afraid I was getting some feedback that was

24    quite disturbing.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I must say, I don't hear your voice in my earphones.

Page 7263

 1    I can hear directly, but your English doesn't come to my ears by way of

 2    earphones.  Perhaps it's better now.  I don't know whether there's any

 3    particular problem, but let's just proceed and whoever has problems with

 4    the sound, please tell me.

 5            MR. STAMP:

 6       Q.   Did you join any particular organisation during the conflict?

 7       A.   I joined the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the end of

 8    April, 1993.

 9       Q.   And for how long did you remain there in that organisation?

10       A.   I stayed in the army up until the 25th of December, 1995.

11       Q.   What, if you could tell us in a sentence, were your duties while

12    you were a member of the army?

13       A.   My duties were that of a foot soldier.

14       Q.   And where were you posted when you were on duty with the army?

15       A.   I was on the line, on the demarcation line and apart from that, I

16    was staying in my apartment when I had time off.

17            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President, I am quite sure the witness said

18    something after --

19            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters, unfortunately, did not hear.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps the witness could repeat the last part

21    of his answer.

22            MR. STAMP:

23       Q.   Witness, you said that you stayed in your apartment when you had

24    time off and then you went on to say something else.  Could you repeat it,

25    please.

Page 7264

 1       A.   I said that when I was on duty, I was at the demarcation line, I

 2    was a guard.  And when I had time off, I was in a flat where I lived

 3    during the war.

 4       Q.   In July of 1993, where did you live?

 5       A.   In Sarajevo, in the district called Dobrinja.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us which part of Dobrinja you lived at?

 7       A.   I lived in Dobrinja II, Street Emila Zole 7, floor 6, apartment

 8    28.

 9       Q.   Now, I would like to take you to the 12th of July, 1993.  Did you

10    go anywhere in particular that day?

11       A.   I remember the 12th of July, 1993.  There was a serious massacre

12    at the well where people used to come and collect water.  And I myself was

13    wounded.

14       Q.   I take it you were wounded in this serious massacre at the well?

15       A.   Yes.  Yes.

16       Q.   How did you -- well, why did you go there, may I put it that way?

17       A.   I didn't go to collect water on that particular day, but since my

18    sister was a refugee in that house where the well was, I went to visit my

19    daughter -- my sister.

20       Q.   At about what time did you arrive there that day?

21       A.   I can't quite remember what time it was.  But I do know that a

22    serious massacre happened on the 12th of July in the afternoon.

23       Q.   When you arrived there at the house where your sister was

24    temporarily a resident, did you see people around?

25       A.   Yes, I saw quite a few people, women and children with lots of

Page 7265

 1    canisters, plastic canisters and buckets.

 2       Q.   And where were these people, women and children?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Where were they?

 5       A.   They were standing in the street and the well was in the courtyard

 6    of the house and so there was a crowd and in order to avoid a bigger

 7    crowd, there were guards from the Civil Defence and they allowed two,

 8    perhaps three people in at a time to collect water and the others had to

 9    wait in front of the gates in the street.

10       Q.   Now, did you pass the people who were waiting at the gate and into

11    the yard?

12       A.   Yes.  I did pass there and I saw some people I knew by sight and

13    some people I have been in touch with during the war and before the war.

14       Q.   Where did you go to in the yard?

15       A.   I entered the courtyard through the iron gates and I was standing

16    in front of the door to the house, the front door.

17       Q.   And while there, did anything happen?

18       A.   Yes, sir.  Was all standing in front of the door and I was

19    knocking on the front door because I wanted my sister to come outside so I

20    could give her something.  She didn't hear me knocking.  So I knocked

21    once, twice and three times.  Meanwhile -- at that moment, I felt a

22    burning sensation to the right of my body, the entire length of my body on

23    the right side whereupon I felt -- I heard a strong detonation and

24    explosion.  It was a grenade.

25       Q.   From which direction did this sound come, the explosion that you

Page 7266

 1    speak of?

 2       A.   I couldn't hear the sound but the explosion came from somewhere to

 3    my right.  So somewhere around the gates to the courtyard.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            Now, before you heard this explosion and felt this burning, were

 6    you speaking with anyone?

 7       A.   Before entering the courtyard where the water was being collected,

 8    I met a friend, a woman I knew, she was a friend of my sister's, Mrs.

 9    Dragica.  I said hello to her and we made small talk and then I went on to

10    knock on the front door of the house where my sister was living.  And then

11    the shell landed.

12       Q.   So after the shell landed, what did you see or hear?

13       A.   At that particular moment, I was unable to see anything because I

14    threw myself into the corridor of the house because I was expecting

15    another shell to land because normally they followed one another.  And as

16    I threw myself into the corridor, into the hall, my sister and a friend of

17    hers who was visiting, Devla, came and helped me.  I stayed within the

18    house for a quarter of an hour, maybe 20 minutes, and when I came out of

19    the house, I saw a lot of dead bodies and a lot of bodies in pieces.

20       Q.   You said your sister and a friend of hers helped you.  What, if

21    anything, happened to you?

22       A.   First of all, they stopped the bleeding, so as not to lose any

23    more blood.  They tried to stop the blood.  And then I went out to go to

24    the hospital.

25       Q.   Yes, what happened to you?  What caused the bleeding?

Page 7267












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Page 7268

 1       A.   The bleeding was caused by this shell.

 2       Q.   And where were you injured, what part of your body?

 3       A.   The entire right side of my body from the foot to the shoulder.

 4       Q.   When you came out of the house eventually, did you go anywhere?

 5       A.   I was going to go to the hospital on my own.  I was unable to.  A

 6    young guy came long.  He was called Sejo Mujezinovic and he took me to a

 7    hospital that is within Dobrinja, within the settlement.

 8       Q.   And were you treated there?

 9       A.   Since I was one of the last patients to get there, I had to wait

10    for the other wounded to be treated and I was one of the last to receive

11    treatment.  I received medical treatment and I was hospitalized for about

12    five or six days.  Then I was discharged.  I was sent home to continue my

13    recovery and then I went to the hospital for my bandages to be changed.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, if you could find a suitable moment

15            MR. STAMP:  This perhaps is a suitable moment.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  This is what I thought it might be.  Mr. Grebic, as I

17    indicated to you already in the beginning, it would only be a short while

18    today that you are examined but the parties will continue your examination

19    tomorrow.  We will adjourn until a quarter past 2.00 tomorrow in the

20    afternoon, the same courtroom.

21                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22                          at 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

23                          Tuesday, the 16th day of April, 2002,

24                          at 2.15 p.m.