Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7269

1 Tuesday, 16 April 2002

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [Open Session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Stamp.

10 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Chairman -- Mr.

12 President, if I may. Thank you. The Defence would like to make a very

13 brief preliminary statement. It will take a couple of minutes maximum.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I may, I would like to

16 make it now. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If it would be in relation to the expert reports, I

18 would deal with this after this witness, but if it is something

19 different, please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is in relation to the

21 procedure in general, sir.


23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

24 counsel has met, not just the two people that you have in front of you,

25 but the entire team, and we felt it would be useful to make the following

Page 7270

1 statement: In no way would we like to start harping on to interlogical

2 matters, but we believe that, apart from all interpretation problems and

3 apart from any confusion which might be created here and there, depending

4 on various elements cropping up in the course of this procedure, and quite

5 apart from all the other problems, the Defence would like to state quite

6 clearly that we have never heard and that we have never tried, and have

7 never intended, to consider this courtroom and any other courtroom of this

8 Tribunal as a playground. I believe it is very important for the Defence

9 to make this statement loud and clear. More than anything else, we want

10 to act as the Defence of the accused. We are fully aware of the stakes

11 within this institution, so never in the past, never in the future and

12 never at the present can we consider any part of this procedure as our

13 playground, because the procedure is far too important to us.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me give you just as brief an answer as you

15 expressed yourself briefly. When I used these words yesterday, it was at

16 the occasion when the Chamber was provided with a page which was entirely

17 black. I do understand that this was a mistake, and the Chamber accepts

18 that it was a mistake and that there were no bad intentions behind it.

19 Mr. Stamp, are you ready to resume the examination of the

20 witness, Mr. Grebic?

21 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then, please, Mr. Usher, lead the witness

23 into the courtroom.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Grebic, please be seated. May I remind you that

Page 7271

1 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you made yesterday at the

2 beginning of your testimony.

3 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

8 Q. The last time we spoke, you told us that you were taken to the

9 hospital where you were treated. Were you admitted or discharged from

10 the hospital that day?

11 A. I was hospitalized for five or six days.

12 Q. And after that, did you return for treatment?

13 A. Yes. I went every other day to have my wounds re-bandaged.

14 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, may I

15 tender to the witness document P1517B, and to the Court P1517B and

16 P1517B1, which is a translation.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Once

21 again, it would appear that the Defence has not received that translation,

22 and apparently it is just a draft, if I am correct in reading the first

23 two words. So it is the draft translation, not the final one. And we did

24 ask for such a document yesterday and we haven't been given it. Thank

25 you very much.

Page 7272

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could you please respond on the question

2 of the Defence why there is just a draft translation and not a

3 translation.

4 MR. STAMP: What we are trying to do, at great effort and expense

5 of resources, is to reconcile the translations we have had with the B/C/S

6 document and, in some cases, provide what we consider to be further

7 translations. So notwithstanding that this document is noted as a draft

8 translation, we tender it as the best translation we have of the exhibit

9 itself.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If at one moment you could provide whatever

11 kind of confirmation that this draft translation is a correct translation,

12 it would be highly appreciated.

13 At this very moment, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since you read both

14 languages, apart from the Latin, as far as I understand, is there any

15 point of specific concern in relation to the draft translation provided to

16 you at this very moment?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Audiens sapiens,

18 Mr. President. As a consequence, I am obliged to reply to you what I am a

19 bit surprised about. I am unable to read the name. And the Latin used to

20 say "nomen est omen," everything is in the name. And I can see another

21 name which is crossed out there and I don't see why. I can see that, once

22 again, we have got the problem of stamps and seals here. They seem to be

23 itinerant seals since they are to the right and used to be on the other

24 side and, once again, they are not translated. So I'm still rather

25 surprised, and I suppose I am going to stay that way. Thank you.

Page 7273

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, the seal seems to have been

2 translated. At least, the last part of the draft translation reads:

3 "Seal, General Hospital, Dobrinja, Sarajevo."

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are quite

5 right. It is a round seal that we can see down at the bottom, apparently,

6 but it also appears that there is a rectangular one to the right side of

7 the document a bit higher up and, apparently, that one has not been

8 translated. I think it might be a seal, but I can't tell because I

9 haven't seen the original.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you inspected the most original version in the

11 hands of the Prosecution?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, but if it

13 is submitted to us, we will do so with pleasure.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then those parts legible, is there any

15 specific concern about the translation in that respect?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since I have

17 only just received the translation, may I have a couple of minutes to

18 read through it? Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If there is any specific concern, please inform the

20 Chamber.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, let's do it like that,

22 thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Do you recognise the document? Can you identify it?

Page 7274

1 A. Yes, I remember this document and I can confirm what it is.

2 Q. Can you please tell us what it is.

3 A. It is the letter on the basis of which I was discharged from the

4 hospital, from Dobrinja Hospital.

5 Q. At the top of this document, do you see your name there, your

6 surname written in hand?

7 A. Yes, I do. Name and surname, the name of the doctor who put the

8 seal on this letter. He actually made a mistake in that he misspelled

9 the first letter in -- of my name. When I took this letter, before

10 leaving, I warned her. I said that it was a "D" instead of a "G" and so

11 she crossed it out and spelled my name correctly, and it is handwritten.

12 You can see it quite clearly, when I was admitted, how long I was

13 hospitalized and when I was discharged. You can see the date of

14 discharge and the date of admission. And I don't know what else I can

15 say about it.

16 Q. Well, tell us, you see "Tesanj" to the top right of the document?

17 A. Yes, I can see it on the screen.

18 Q. What is the relevance of that?

19 A. That is my place of birth.

20 Q. And you see the figures "1946"?

21 A. That is the year in which I was born.

22 Q. And above that, after your surname, do you see a name, "Asir," in

23 brackets?

24 A. Yes. It is written on the document. That is my father's name.

25 Q. And below that, do you see "E. Zola 7"? Can you see what that is?

Page 7275

1 A. That is the name of the street where I was living. The full name

2 would be the street of Emile Zola, number 7.

3 Q. If I may take you back to the day that you were injured. You had

4 travelled to your sister's house to visit her. Do you remember how you

5 travelled? Was it by car, by foot, by bicycle? By what means did you

6 travel?

7 A. I went on foot.

8 Q. And can you remember what the weather was like on the scene of

9 where this incident occurred?

10 A. As weather conditions go, it was changing. I don't know exactly

11 remember what time it was, but sometime in the afternoon.

12 Q. Well, you said it was changing. Changing from what to what?

13 A. Well, it was partly sunny and partly cloudy and so on.

14 Q. You said that when you arrived there, you were making small talk

15 with a woman, Dragica, who was at the gate. Can you remember her full

16 name?

17 A. Yes. She was a friend, a friend of my sister's, Semsa. She had

18 been a family friend even before Bosnia-Herzegovina and I met her at my

19 sister's place, and I knew her name was Dragica Micanovic.

20 Q. Did she live in that community?

21 A. She lived in the so-called airport settlement which was occupied

22 by the Serb forces.

23 Q. What ethnicity was she, do you know?

24 A. She was Serbian by nationality

25 Q. Do you know what happened to her in this shelling incident on the

Page 7276

1 12th of July, 1993?

2 A. When I went to it front door of the house where my sister was

3 staying, after a couple of seconds, this shell landed and Mrs. Dragica

4 lost her life, as many other civilians.

5 Q. At the position, at the place where this incident occurred, do you

6 know of any military facility nearby at that time?

7 A. Your Honour, I would like to correct you. It was not an incident,

8 it was a massacre. There were no military facilities in the vicinity.

9 Q. Can you say approximately how far the closest Bosnian army lines

10 were?

11 A. The Bosnian army lines and the Serb army lines were to the

12 south-east of that building and about 500 metres away. That is in the

13 direction of the airport settlement.

14 Q. Have you ever heard or do you know of a tunnel which was built

15 from Dobrinja, running under the airport to Butmir?

16 A. Yes, I have heard of the tunnel.

17 Q. Can you say, if you know, when that tunnel came into operation or

18 approximately when?

19 A. On the 12th of July 1993, when this terrible massacre happened,

20 the tunnel was being dug, in the process of being dug. In came into

21 operation by the end of November or beginning of December, 1993.

22 Q. Can you recall any other shelling incidents in that same vicinity

23 before or after the incident of the 12th of July, 1993?

24 A. Before that incident, I can't remember, and after that particular

25 massacre, other shells landed, in that area, in the same area where that

Page 7277

1 particular massacre took place.

2 Q. When you say, "in the same area," about how far from the gate

3 with the pump?

4 A. Approximately five to six days later, another shell landed to the

5 right of the gate, right in the middle of the road and there was -- it

6 left a big mark. Then my sister Semsa was actually in the courtyard and

7 she was basically still cleaning up after the previous massacre. Since

8 the courtyard is lower than the street level, a piece of shrapnel hit her

9 in the head, but it was just a superficial injury and so it only took away

10 some of her hair and she was not killed or anything.

11 Q. The place where this shell fell a few days after the 12th of July,

12 about how far did it impact from the gate?

13 A. 45 metres, approximately.

14 Q. Now, in your experience, does a mortar shell make a sound when

15 it passes through the air?

16 A. I would say, in this particular case, the one who hears the sound

17 is lucky because -- they are lucky since the shrapnel continues on their

18 way. But once it starts falling out of the sky, in that case, you don't

19 hear it, you feel it.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. STAMP: That, if it pleases you, Mr. President, Your Honours,

22 concludes the examination-in-chief.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, I see you are on your feet. You are going to

25 cross-examine the witness?

Page 7278












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7279

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: Before my friend proceeds, may I just clarify one

3 thing? On the record we have -- it has been pointed out to me that in

4 answer to a question I asked about the distance between the two impact

5 sites, there is written here "45 metres, approximately." My memory is 4

6 to 5 metres. I don't know if perhaps I can ask him to clarify.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you ask for a clarification.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Could you tell us approximately how far did this shell which

10 impacted a few days after the incident of the 12th of July, 1993 fell in

11 terms of the distance from the gate?

12 A. The distance was between 4 and 5 metres. 4 to 5, not 45. 4 to

13 5.

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much. Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Grebic, you will now be examined by counsel for

16 the Defence.

17 Miss Pilipovic, please proceed.

18 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

20 While Ms. Pilipovic will be examining the witness, could we have the

21 original of the Prosecution's document, the medical certificate, in order

22 to be able to examine it a little more clearly? Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, I see that you are already

24 assisting the parties.

25 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 7280

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. During the examination-in-chief with my learned colleague, you

5 spoke about an incident that happened on the 12th of July, 1993. Could

6 you tell us since when your sister has been living in that house and

7 whether she is still living in that house now?

8 A. I wouldn't talk about an incident. I would call it a massacre.

9 But my sister moved into that house in the course of 1992, when the Serbs

10 set fire to her house.

11 Q. Who lived in the house in which your sister lived?

12 A. Munib Mujezinovic lives there, and in the course of the war, he

13 moved to Sweden.

14 Q. Up until when did your sister live in that house?

15 A. She didn't live in the house all the time. She moved into a flat

16 towards the end of 1993. It was an abandoned flat.

17 Q. So you are saying that your sister in the course of 1992 and in

18 1993, that during that period she lived in that house?

19 A. She didn't live in that house in 1992. In 1992, in May, when the

20 Serbs set fire to her house.

21 Q. Yes, you said that is when she moved into that house.

22 A. Yes, that is when she came in that house.

23 Q. That is what understood. So she lived in the house in the course

24 of 1992 and 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7281

1 Q. On the 12th of July, when you went to your sister's, did you go

2 there to visit her or did you go to collect water?

3 A. I didn't go to collect water. I went there to give her

4 something.

5 Q. Mr. Grebic, could you tell us or could you confirm that on the

6 22nd of February, 1995, you gave a statement to the Bosnian authorities

7 with regard to this incident?

8 A. Yes, I gave a statement to the Bosnian authorities, but I can't

9 remember the date.

10 Q. If I say the Defence has a copy of the statement and the date is

11 the 22nd of February, 1995, and that you have signed it, would you agree

12 with this? Would that be the statement? I can show it to you if you

13 like.

14 A. Yes, that is the statement in question. I know that it was in

15 May [Real-time transcript read in error "February"] but I can't remember

16 the exact date.

17 Q. On the 23rd of February, 1995, when you gave the statement to the

18 Bosnian authorities, did anyone with regard to the incident of the 12th

19 of July, did anyone speak to you with regard to this incident?

20 A. No, not before that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere in respect of a matter of

22 translation. I heard the English translation saying that, "I know it was

23 in May, but I can't remember the exact date." It is in the transcript now

24 that "I know that it was in February." I don't know whether this was a

25 translation problem or in the next chain that is between the translation

Page 7282

1 and the transcript. Was this a mistake? Of course, everyone makes

2 mistakes. Was there a mistake in the translation or was it corrected in

3 the transcript? Could perhaps the English booth --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said "May," as far as the

5 interpreter can remember.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So then the translation was correct that it was May

7 and it appears differently in the transcript. Could I just clarify this?

8 Mr. Grebic, you said, when you were asked about the statement of

9 which Ms. Pilipovic thought you did was the 22nd of February. In my

10 transcript, I read that your answer was, "I know that it was -- " Well, I

11 know that it is not the transcript. But I heard translated that you

12 said, "I know that it was in May." Do you remember that it was in May or

13 do you remember that it was in February?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to say exactly. That was

15 a long time ago. Whether it was May or February, it is difficult to say.

16 But it would sooner be February than May, in my opinion.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, your first question was, "The Defence

18 has a copy of the statement on the 22nd of February," and the next

19 question was, "On the 23rd of February, when you gave the statement."

20 Which date is the correct one? I am just wondering whether there are two

21 statements or --

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think I said the

23 23rd of February, 1995, because that is the only date I could have said

24 since I have a statement with that date. I can't remember that

25 date.

Page 7283

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grebic. After that, did you give a statement to

3 the investigators of the Prosecution on the 31 of August, 2000?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Mr. Grebic, when I asked you whether on the 12 of July, 1993,

6 whether you went to visit your sister or you also went to collect water,

7 you said you went to give her something?

8 A. To give her something, that is right.

9 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigators of the

10 Prosecution on the 30th of August, on the 31 of August, 2002, on the first

11 page of that statement, of the translation, you said, On that day, I

12 and a friend of mine went to get water. When I got there, I saw

13 people there whom I knew." Could you tell us what is correct? Is what is

14 correct that you went there on the 31 of August to get water or is what

15 you are saying today correct?

16 A. What I am saying now is what is correct.

17 Q. Could you tell us why on the 31 of August, 2000, you said that you

18 went to there to get water?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. When you gave your statement to the investigators of the

21 Prosecution, were you speaking in your own language?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you sign the statement in its English version?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was -- did you listen to the dictation of the statement?

Page 7284

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Could you explain to us how come in the record it says that you

3 went to get water there with your neighbour?

4 A. I don't remember that I said something like that.

5 Q. So you admit that you may have perhaps gone there to collect water

6 with your friend?

7 A. No, I didn't go to collect water. I went to give something to my

8 sister.

9 Q. Does that mean that what is stated in the statement that you have

10 signed is not correct?

11 A. Not necessarily.

12 Q. Could you tell us why with regard to this incident which you

13 witnessed why you gave two different statements with regard to this

14 incident?

15 A. During the massacre, perhaps I said that I went to get water, but

16 I didn't go to get water. I went to give something to my sister. In my

17 opinion, that doesn't change anything.

18 Q. Before the 12th of July, 1993, did you also go to see your

19 sister?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. How often would you go there?

22 A. Seldom.

23 Q. When you say "seldom," could you be more precise? Was that once a

24 week, once a month, or how often?

25 A. It was seldom because I wasn't free to move. I was afraid of the

Page 7285

1 shelling and of snipers.

2 Q. After the 12th of July, 1993, how often did you go to see your

3 sister during the time she was living in that house?

4 A. I never went to that place again until I took the investigators to

5 that location.

6 Q. Could you tell us when you went to that place for the first time

7 with the investigators?

8 A. When I gave the statement.

9 Q. Can you confirm that that was on the 30th of -- the 31st of

10 August, 2000?

11 A. I can't remember the date.

12 Q. When you gave the statement, you said that you were with the

13 investigators. After that, when you were leaving -- when you were going

14 to the investigators, were you with them?

15 A. Yes, I was with the investigators on two occasions. I was at the

16 site of the massacre with the investigators on two occasions.

17 Q. So you have confirmed that up until the 12th of July, you went

18 there very seldom, and after the 12th of July, you didn't go there again,

19 you didn't go to that street, to your sister's?

20 A. Except when I took the investigators to show them that place, to

21 show them where the massacre had taken place.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Grebic, on that day when you went there, my

23 colleague asked you what the weather was like on that day. You said it

24 was changeable, both cloudy and sunny.

25 A. Well, you know, it was just before the rain so it was sunny and

Page 7286

1 then it was cloudy.

2 Q. Did it rain on that day?

3 A. Yes, in the evening and in the afternoon, too. It was just before

4 the evening.

5 Q. When you went there on that day on the 12th of July, 1993, you

6 said that you didn't know what time it was; you said it was in the

7 afternoon. Could you tell us whether the people in that street were

8 standing or sitting?

9 A. Some of them were standing and some of them were sitting on the

10 pavement.

11 Q. Could you tell us how many people there were in the line?

12 A. Over 20. Approximately, there were 20 and more than 20.

13 Q. When you say, "20 or more than 20," do you mean to say that there

14 may have been between 20 and 30?

15 A. I didn't count them but, in my opinion, it was perhaps 20, 25. I

16 don't know.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Did you notice or did you see, was there any soldiers waiting in

19 that line?

20 A. No, there weren't.

21 Q. You told us that you spoke to a woman who was in the queue. You

22 said that her name was Dragica Micanovic. Could you tell us how old she

23 was?

24 A. She was about 55 and 60. She was between 55 and 60, in my

25 opinion.

Page 7287












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7288

1 Q. Could you tell us where she was standing when you spoke to her?

2 A. She was standing outside the gate, two or three metres in front of

3 the gate.

4 Q. Were there any people in front of her who were closer to the gate?

5 A. Yes, there were.

6 Q. When you entered the house or, rather, the yard, you said that you

7 knocked on the door two or three times?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us whether there were people -- whether there were

10 any people in the yard?

11 A. There were perhaps three or four people in the yard around the

12 well.

13 Q. At the entrance to the house where you were standing, was there

14 anyone standing by the door there?

15 A. There was no one standing by the door, but to the right of the

16 door, there was a group of young men between 16 and 17. They were playing

17 cards. They were waiting in the line.

18 Q. When you say "a group of young men playing cards," how many of

19 them were there and were they sitting or standing?

20 A. They were sitting. There were some plastic tables, some old ones.

21 There were three or four or five of them.

22 Q. Did you see whether there were any people by the well?

23 A. Yes, there were, those whose turn it was and who would come to get

24 the water.

25 Q. When the incident occurred and when you told us that you had been

Page 7289

1 wounded, can you confirm that at that time - and correct me if I am

2 wrong - did you say that you stayed in the house for about ten minutes

3 after you had felt that something was hurting you?

4 A. Yes, 15 to 20 minutes.

5 Q. So after 15 or 20 minutes, you left the house. Can you tell us

6 and can you describe what you saw in the yard?

7 A. When my sister helped me and her friend, I stayed there for a

8 minute. They stopped the bleeding. I went to the hospital. I went out

9 into the yard and I saw quite a few corpses and quite a few bodies and

10 body parts. Those who were wounded, they tried to take them to the

11 hospital, and the dead people remained lying there.

12 Q. Can you tell us -- can you tell us how many people there were who

13 were dead in the yard?

14 A. I didn't count, but about ten people. About ten bodies.

15 Q. Can you confirm that you saw those ten bodies and the corpses?

16 A. I didn't say 10. I said about 10. Perhaps 10, perhaps 11. I

17 apologise, perhaps 10.

18 Q. Did you see them in the yard?

19 A. Some of them in the yard and some of them beyond the yard, outside

20 the gate.

21 Q. When you say "outside the gate," can you be a little more

22 precise? Can you tell us where they were with regard to the gate? Can

23 you tell us where these bodies were and did you recognise them?

24 A. There was a street that ran alongside the gate, and I saw a woman

25 on the pavement. I didn't know her. And in the middle of the street, I

Page 7290

1 saw Mrs. Dragica Micanovic, and she was lying on her back and she was all

2 black and swollen.

3 Q. Do you know whether the police came to the site?

4 A. Not while I was there. Perhaps -- they probably came afterwards.

5 Q. As far as I have understood from your answer, there was -- you

6 said there were two bodies lying in the street.

7 A. I didn't say two. There were more, but I noticed that woman on

8 the pavement. I saw Dragica in the middle of the street and there were

9 other bodies on the pavement.

10 Q. In the area you passed through, did you see any bodies? Did you

11 see the consequences of the shell and did you see the leftover of the

12 shell, parts of the shell, of the exploded shell?

13 A. Are you talking about -- are you talking about the traces of the

14 shell on the pavement?

15 Q. Where did you notice these traces, and did you see the tail of the

16 shell?

17 A. That shell didn't leave any traces because it hit the body of a

18 girl and that is when it exploded.

19 Q. Can you tell us whether you found out what the name of that girl

20 was?

21 A. I can't remember the name of that girl but I know that she died

22 and her mother died, too. I later found out and I later met the father,

23 Vlado Sana [phoen] quite by chance.

24 Q. After those conversations, did you find out where that girl and

25 her mother were standing?

Page 7291

1 A. No, I didn't. Probably near the gate, but I didn't know.

2 Q. Did that shell leave any traces on some other object? You said

3 there were no traces on the asphalt.

4 A. Of course, it left traces on the bodies and on the walls of the

5 house.

6 Q. Were those traces visible on the walls of the house and on which

7 house?

8 A. On the walls of the house in front of which water was being

9 collected. And probably elsewhere too, but I didn't notice this.

10 Q. When you say, "the house in which they were collecting water,"

11 does that mean the house in which your sister was living?

12 A. Yes. Yes, on the outside.

13 Q. I didn't understand you very well when you said on the walls.

14 A. On the walls on the outside, the traces of the shell.

15 Q. Did the traces of the shell face the street?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After you left the hospital, did you find out whether the police

18 went to the site of the massacre? Was that site recorded and did UNPROFOR

19 go there?

20 A. Yes, I did hear about it. I heard that the police went there and

21 that UNPROFOR went there, too, and I know that they filmed that site. I

22 heard that this was done.

23 Q. When you say that you heard that the police went there, could you

24 tell us whether do you know how long after the incident the police went

25 there?

Page 7292

1 A. I don't know. I was in the hospital at the time.

2 Q. You said that you stayed in your sister's house for 15 to 20

3 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes. All the bodies of all the people who had died

4 on that occasion, were they there?

5 A. All those who died remained there. Only those who were wounded

6 were taken away.

7 Q. Do you remember whether there were any cars on that street?

8 A. As far as I can remember, there was probably one car there in

9 front of the gate, on the left-hand side, but I can't remember the make of

10 the car and I can't remember its colour either.

11 Q. You told us that you were a member of the BH army from April 1993?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us which military formation you belonged to in

14 Dobrinja?

15 A. I belonged to the so-called Dobrinja Brigade, the 105th Motorised

16 Brigade.

17 Q. When you say "the Dobrinja Brigade," which was later the 105th

18 Brigade, is that is brigade whose commander was Ismet Hadzic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us which military formation, which other military

21 formation with regard to the brigade that you belonged to, was it a

22 battalion, a company?

23 A. I belonged to the 3rd Battalion of a company.

24 Q. Could you tell us where the command post of your company was and

25 of your battalion?

Page 7293

1 A. It was somewhere within Dobrinja, away from the site of the

2 massacre, a bit further up. And the command post of my company was in the

3 Lav Tolstoj Street on the opposite side of the school. I can't remember

4 the name of the school. It was facing Lukavica and the church.

5 Q. Mr. Grebic, if we show you a map of Sarajevo, a map of Dobrinja,

6 would you be able to pinpoint the location of the company's command post

7 and the command post of the 3rd Battalion?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

10 we have a map of the town. We have prepared a map. I apologise, I

11 haven't inscribed the number. 95, I think. We haven't solved the

12 problem.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please assist

14 Ms. Pilipovic.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show the witness

16 the map in colour and put it on the ELMO in order to orientate himself

17 better.

18 Q. Mr. Grebic, on your right side, there is a map of the town. It

19 might be easier if you have a look at the map itself. It is to your

20 right. Could you just put the map a bit further up so that Dobrinja

21 might be more visible. Please put it down.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you please help

23 the witness, please. Just a bit further up. You can see where Dobrinja.

24 We all need to see it. That's right. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you also please adjust the

Page 7294

1 microphone of the witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of the staff was in the

3 Bulevar.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Grebic, could you please take a pencil and mark number 1 at

6 the point which you call the command of the staff? Please take a black

7 felt tip and mark number 1 at the site that you call -- but use a

8 fine-tipped felt tip in order to avoid problems.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please provide the fine-tip pen to the

10 witness in black. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Grebic, you have just marked a number 1 there. Could you

13 please repeat which command post was there, was it the staff command of

14 the brigade or of the Battalion?

15 A. It was of the brigade.

16 Q. That's the street?

17 Q. In the boulevard of Dobrinja. The command post of the brigade has

18 been marked as number one in the street of Branilaca Dobrinja. Could you

19 indicate the command post of your 3rd Battalion on the map.

20 A. Here is -- I don't know what this street was called afterwards. It

21 was Lav Tolstoj Street. I can't see it.

22 Q. Mr. Grebic, is that the street of Emile Zola? Are you telling us

23 that that's where the command post for the 3rd Battalion was?

24 A. Across the street to the right in the direction of Lukavica.

25 Q. Could you mark by number 2, notwithstanding you can't tell where

Page 7295

1 the Emile Zola Street -- ?

2 A. Yes, I can see Emile Zola Street but I don't see the street where

3 my command post was for the third company.

4 Q. Where was the battalion?

5 A. Across the street from Emile Zola. I don't know the name of the

6 street.

7 Q. Could you mark by number 2 next to the Emile Zola Street and then

8 for the record we will consider what you are saying. If you could just

9 put number 2 next to the Emile Zola Street.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness marked

12 by number 2, the location of or rather the command post of the 3rd

13 Battalion.

14 Q. Could you now tell us where the command post for your company was?

15 A. There, where I marked it by number 2.

16 Q. And what about the battalion?

17 A. The same street of the Boulevard Branilaca Dobrinja. I can't

18 remember the number.

19 Q. So could we correct the record, if you can place number 3 where

20 the command post for your battalion was situated.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, number 3 marks the

22 command post for the battalion.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, for the marking on the map, it's not

24 necessary for the transcript to repeat it, it's only when the witness

25 points at the place, which leaves no traces.

Page 7296












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7297

1 Please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Grebic, you are saying that the command post for your company

4 was in the vicinity of Emile Zola Street and you marked it by number 2.

5 Are you telling us that is where the front line was where you were on

6 duty?

7 A. The front line was in the direction of Lukavica and the

8 direction of the church perhaps 500 metres away.

9 Q. Could you use the marker and indicate the direction?

10 A. I can place an arrow in the direction of Lukavica Road. I can't

11 really mark it.

12 Q. Witness, could you tell us about the buildings where the command

13 posts were situated both for the chief of staff and the brigade, the

14 battalion and the company, what were those buildings?

15 A. Those were residential buildings and they were then turned into

16 office buildings.

17 Q. Could you identify what buildings they were and what they were

18 called, where the command post for your company, your Battalion was, do

19 you know that?

20 A. I don't know the exact name of the street but I know there used to

21 be a UPI supermarket there.

22 Q. So you are telling us that the command post of your company was in

23 the building where the supermarket was?

24 A. There used to be a supermarket there.

25 Q. Did that residential building also include flats?

Page 7298

1 A. Yes. The part of the building in the direction on the -- of the

2 Lukavica was shelled and part of the building had been destroyed.

3 Q. In relation to your command post, the command post of your company

4 and the building where it was situated, could you tell us how far away it

5 was from the positions of the Republika Srpska Army in relation to that

6 part of town, Dobrinja?

7 A. My front line -- my line was in front of the church. The part of

8 my battalion and my company, about 500 metres away, and the Serb forces

9 were in front of us in the church by 300 metres away, in Dobrinja IV and

10 Dobrinja I to the right.

11 Q. For all intents and purposes, could you just mark the positions or

12 rather the location of the church and Dobrinja I on the map, if you can.

13 A. I don't see the church being marked here or even the school. So

14 it is a bit difficult to find my way.

15 Q. Could you tell us what the name of the school was?

16 A. I am not sure. But I think it was Dusan Pajic or something along

17 these lines before the war.

18 Q. Was this school open during the war?

19 A. No, because it was on the line, on the front line. It was the

20 demarcation line so it wasn't working.

21 Q. So you are telling us that in the church -- in the school, sorry,

22 as you call it, Dusan Pajic, there was soldiers there and it was the front

23 line?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us -- I am referring to 1993, 1994, you said you were

Page 7299

1 in the army of 1993 -- were there any changes to these front lines, or

2 demarcation lines?

3 A. When I joined the BH army, I was living in town, near Hepok. In

4 1993, the beginning of June 1993, I went back to Dobrinja with my family,

5 and those lines were not changed. I found them in that way and I was on

6 duty there, I was a guard there.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I remind you that the Defence took

8 the same time as the Prosecution did.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try and wrap

10 this up before the break.

11 Q. Mr. Grebic, could you tell us about this period of time when it

12 comes to the two armed forces in the area of Dobrinja, were there any

13 battles there?

14 A. No, and there were no movements of units. We were simply on guard

15 duty. And the Serb snipers used to shoot the civilians and in the

16 direction of our settlements.

17 Q. Were there any snipers within your company?

18 A. As far as I know, we did not have any snipers in the BH army. At

19 least not in that area where I was.

20 Q. Is there a company called Cenex? Are there premises of that

21 company near Dobrinja?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And do you know anything about the 1st Motorised Brigade being

24 near Stup?

25 A. I don't know who was stationed there, I don't know what brigade.

Page 7300

1 Q. Can you tell us what weapons you had?

2 A. I had a machine-gun. I had a gun, sorry. It was a Kalasnikov

3 type gun made in Yugoslavia in Kragenjevac.

4 Q. You said you had a Kalasnikov. The other people, how were they

5 dressed, the other members of your --

6 A. They had semi-automatic guns and Kalasnikovs.

7 Q. Could you tell us what your uniform was like? Did you have

8 uniforms?

9 A. Well, I did not have any uniforms. Those who had money had

10 uniforms and they had them.

11 Q. Could you tell us how much time you spent on the front line and

12 where did you have your meals?

13 A. The food was delivered to the front line where we were stationed.

14 I was on guard duty for two days at a time, or rather once every six or

15 eight hours for two hours.

16 Q. When you were there for two days, where did you go to sleep?

17 A. In abandoned buildings.

18 Q. These abandoned buildings in Dobrinja, were they residential

19 buildings? Were they being used for that purpose?

20 A. They were residential buildings, but we used to go and sleep in

21 the cellars

22 Q. Could you tell us and do you know anything about where the members

23 of the brigade would gather in case it was necessary for them to group

24 together? Did you have a place in Dobrinja such as a barracks or

25 something?

Page 7301

1 A. We didn't have any barracks, and my company used to gather in a

2 garage. It was near the demarcation line.

3 Q. Could you tell us in what building the command post of your

4 battalion was situated?

5 A. The command post was situate in the boulevard of Branilaca,

6 Dobrinja, where they used to be a furniture shop called Jugodrvo.

7 Q. Were the premises of Jugodrvo where this particular building, were

8 there any residential buildings in the area, in the vicinity?

9 A. Yes. Yes, there were right above the battalion premises.

10 Q. Could you tell us about the 105th Brigade, where was that

11 situated, the command post, I mean?

12 A. The street was called Dobrinjka Bolnica [phoen], if I remember

13 correctly, and on the other side was Bulevar Branilaca, and the command

14 post was in the offices of Magros.

15 Q. Mr. Grebic, you said that you spent between five and six days at

16 the hospital. You said that afterwards you went back to hospital for

17 treatment. On those occasions, did the doctors record any of the dates of

18 the visits and the treatment?

19 A. I don't know whether it was recorded.

20 Q. Could you tell us when you got this letter of discharge?

21 A. I believe it was in the 17th of July, 1993.

22 Q. So you got that letter when you left the hospital?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You said that -- well, during the examination in chief, you said

25 that there were other incidents, or shelling incidents, and you said that

Page 7302

1 there were something about five or six days after the 12th of July?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In the course of making a statement, you never mentioned this

4 incident whereby your sister was injured?

5 A. I mean, she was not badly injured, but it skinned the surface of

6 her head so it took away some of her hair.

7 Q. Do you know anything about the direction from which the shell

8 came?

9 A. I didn't fire it, so I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know anything about this incident on the 12th of July, when

11 you yourself were wounded? Do you know anything about the positions where

12 the shell could have been fired from?

13 A. It is up to the experts to determine that.

14 Q. Could you tell us from what positions and from what places you

15 can get the best view of the street where people were queueing up for

16 water? Can you actually see the buildings around it?

17 A. It could have seen very well from Gavrica, which was in the hand

18 of the Serb forces.

19 Q. You did mention this hill Gavrica Brdo in your statement. Can you

20 show us where exactly it is?

21 A. I can, if you have the relevant map.

22 Q. Can you see it on the map in front of you? What part of town is

23 the Gavrica Brdo?

24 A. It is the part of town which is above Gornji Kotorac. I don't

25 seem to be able to find Gornji Kotorac. Gornji Kotorac is a bit lower

Page 7303

1 down. No, it is Gornji Kotorac I am talking about. You can't see it on

2 the map.

3 Q. Could you tell us something about the direction in relation to the

4 place where the incident took place, the general direction that you say

5 marked the place that had a good view of the area? From -- in what

6 direction is it? If you could just indicate it.

7 A. I am not an expert on maps. I just can't see it here. I can

8 tell you what my assumption would be. I said that it was in the direction

9 of this Gavrica Brdo. I thought that was the place where you could have

10 the best view of the area.

11 Q. Could you mark the place where the incident took place? According

12 to your opinion, where is the street where the incident took place?

13 A. The street is not marked on the map.

14 Q. And what is the name of the street? Was it the street of

15 Spasenija Cana Babovic or some other street?

16 A. Madam, it is before you reach the top of the hill. It was called

17 Aleja Branka Bujic, and it was where just a couple of private houses were

18 situated. And then when the settlements went up, the name was changed and

19 it was then called Spasenija Cana Babovic.

20 Q. Do you know anything about the current name of the street?

21 A. The name of the street now, it was named after Hakije Turajlica,

22 who was the Vice President of the government and was killed by the Serb

23 forces.

24 Q. In relation to this street Spasenija Cana Babovic, could you tell

25 us how far the front line was?

Page 7304

1 A. Well, from the house, as I said, in the direction of Nedzarici,

2 about 500 metres away.

3 Q. You did say that the tunnel was being built at that time. Could

4 you -- I mean, in your statement, you said that that place was about --

5 the entry into the tunnel was about 100 metres away. Could you tell us

6 whether the armed forces were organising the security in the area whilst

7 the tunnel was being built?

8 A. No, it was not the armed forces. It was the Civil Defence and

9 the private citizens, civilians.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no further

11 questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

14 MR. STAMP: Just one or two questions.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

16 Q. You said you had a Kalasnikov while you were on gourd duty near to

17 the demarcation line. Did you carry home that weapon?

18 A. No, I didn't carry it home because we didn't have enough weapons,

19 so I used to leave it to the next person who came on duty when I was

20 leaving.

21 Q. You said your company congregated in a garage near the demarcation

22 line and that you also slept in cellars of abandoned residential building.

23 How far or how close were these abandoned buildings to the demarcation

24 line?

25 A. I said between 500 and 600 metres in some areas, and in other

Page 7305












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7306

1 areas they were closer than that.

2 Q. When you were on duty and you slept in abandoned residential

3 buildings, can you say where these abandoned residential buildings

4 were in respect to the demarcation line?

5 A. The particular building where I used to go whilst I was on duty,

6 where I used to go to rest between rounds of duty whilst I was working,

7 was in Lav Tolstoj Street , which is in the direction of Lukavica and

8 Bijelo Polje.

9 Q. The Civil Defence personnel and the civilians who organised the

10 security around the area where the tunnel was being constructed, were

11 they armed or not?

12 A. I don't know but those who had arms, perhaps rifles or guns from

13 earlier on, probably yes. They might have been.

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

16 Mr. Grebic, I have just a few short questions to you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell me whether the tunnel you talk about,

19 was dug from both sides of the airport or from one side to the other, and

20 then in which direction?

21 A. The tunnel was being dug from the direction of Butmir and from the

22 direction of Dobrinja, and it was going below the runways of the airport.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Next question is: You told us that the

24 woman to whom you talked before the shell fell on the 12th of July, that

25 she was living in the airport facility which was held by the Serb forces.

Page 7307

1 Would that mean that she was still living there or that she used to live

2 there?

3 A. Prior to the aggression, she used to live in the so-called

4 airport settlement and when the Serb force withdrew and when they --

5 when the UNPROFOR forces took over the airport, some of the civilians

6 left, some of them wanted to move within Dobrinja.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And she stayed there?

8 A. She left her apartment and remained in Dobrinja to live, where the

9 other citizens were living. She went through all this horror in much

10 the same way as everybody else.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a last question or perhaps two questions

12 in respect of your discharge letter.

13 Could perhaps the discharge letter be shown again to the witness.

14 That is P151.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wouldn't

17 like to interrupt you, but whilst you are showing the letter, could we

18 just remind the witness once again that it is not a custom here to use the

19 term "aggression," as we can see on the screen.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... testimony.

21 Mr. Grebic, could you look at the document, and there seems to be

22 some shadowy parts where there might have been something. Do you see

23 that? It seems to be at the right in the middle, some shadowy signs or

24 might have been text or... Do you remember whether there was any such

25 thing on the letter you received or was it just the text as you can read

Page 7308

1 it on this letter?

2 A. I can't remember whether there was anything or not. But I would

3 just like to tell you that at that time we didn't have the technology for

4 clean and nice printing. We didn't even have adequate paper and we used

5 to have to print on paper which had already been used for other purposes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my last question to you: You told us

7 that you received this letter and that your name was put on it by hand,

8 correcting a wrong first letter. Did you happen to keep that letter?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be willing to provide the letter to the

11 Court?

12 A. I think I must still have it at home, but I don't have it here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But would you be willing to try to find it and

14 to give it to an official of the Court or of the Prosecution?

15 A. If I manage to do it, I would be pleased to do so.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for this answer.

17 Mr. Grebic, you have answered all the questions put to you by both

18 the Prosecution and the Defence and the additional questions of the

19 Chamber. It is very important for this Chamber to hear the testimony of

20 those who have been present during the relevant times at relevant places.

21 It will assist us in performing our task. Since we also know that it is

22 quite a journey for you to come from Sarajevo to The Hague, we would like

23 to thank you very much for coming and I hope you have a safe journey home

24 again.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 7309

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of

2 the courtroom.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp, is this anything we should deal with

5 in the presence of the witness --

6 MR. STAMP: I don't think it really matters much. There had been

7 a document yesterday which the Court had indicated that it would prefer if

8 it came into evidence the document. We have laminated copies which we

9 have taken from the binder for the witness that we intended to tender them

10 through. They're marked P1386, and the translation P1386.1. I think

11 shortly before we started, my learned friend Ms. Pilipovic were given --

12 was given a copy, and I don't know if she would object, but we could

13 tender these to the Court and perhaps it could be agreed that they are

14 received in evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think it was the Defence who wanted

16 to tender the documents, but you had no copies for us.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The Defence

18 didn't intend to tender this on our behalf and that is why we made that

19 statement yesterday

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, you know that the Court,

21 since a lot of questions have been put in respect of the that document,

22 that the Court would like to have the documents referred to in evidence.

23 So, we can do a few things. One of the things is to wait for the

24 Prosecution; the other thing would be that we order the parties to put

25 into evidence these documents; and the third option would be that you make

Page 7310

1 up your mind on whether you still do not want to tender the document into

2 evidence. Let me just hear. You are still of the same position that you

3 don't want to tender the document?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 MR. STAMP: The document was presented to the witness, the

6 witness answered questions about this document. The witness did say that

7 the photographs are true representations of the scene of the incident

8 that we are speaking about just now and the Prosecution tenders this

9 document and asks that it be received in evidence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The formal obstacle might be that the Prosecution

11 did not introduce the document by the witness, but I think the Chamber

12 also decided that we want to have it in evidence.

13 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. First let me given an opportunity to Mr.

14 Stamp to finish what he wanted to say because I interrupted him.

15 MR. STAMP: I think though the formal practice is that the party

16 who first hands the witness a document is the party who tenders it,

17 however, I think it is sufficient if the witness identifies the document

18 as being relevant to the case and, if so, that is something that we are

19 entitled to tender. May it please you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are on your feet.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, thank you

22 for giving me this opportunity to reply. The Defence would not object to

23 having the Prosecution tendering this document. That would be the

24 clearest option.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Not even if it was done immediately now at this very

Page 7311

1 moment?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Obviously, Mr. President, it

3 doesn't matter when this is done. We agree on the principle, whenever

4 this takes place.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So I take it then that the document is tendered by

6 the Prosecution at this moment and -- is there any objection against the

7 admission into evidence because that is a different question whether you

8 tender it or have an objection to the admission.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, not at all. We have

10 no objection to this other issue.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It is then admitted into evidence.

12 Madam Registrar, we are at a moment where we usually have a

13 break. Perhaps we could deal with the documents after the break. And I

14 would also like to take the opportunity then to see whether there are any

15 remaining problems in respect of the documents attached to the expert

16 report the Prosecution is intending to tender, the export report of Mr.

17 Donia. So if you would please prepare for that so that we can discuss

18 it, but let's do it efficiently. We will then have a break until 20

19 minutes past 4.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

21 --- Upon resuming at 4.23 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I assume that I said we would have a break until 10

23 minutes past 4.00 but at the same time, when I left this courtroom, I

24 recognised that it was a violation of the customary law that the first

25 break would be half an hour. I now see in the transcript it says that we

Page 7312

1 have until 20 minutes past 4.00. But let's forget about it.

2 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through the documents

3 in relation to the witness Grebic.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1517B, discharge certificate in B/C/S;

5 Exhibit P1517B.1, English translation; Exhibit D95, map marked by witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I perhaps ask Mr. Stamp whether you would

7 be able to, in one way or the other, to make sure that the translation on

8 which Mr. Piletta-Zanin has studied already would be a final translation.

9 I mean, draft always gives the impression that it is not properly done

10 or... But before asking you, perhaps I should ask whether Mr.

11 Piletta-Zanin, as I invited him to do, to ask whether there are any

12 specific problems, not general but specific problems bothering him in

13 relation to the legible text.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I have

15 certain difficulties, not with regard to the legibility of the text, but

16 with regard to the fact that it just can't be read, that is to say that

17 the text that is present seems to be legible, it seems to have been

18 translated in a fairly orderly manner, but, however, there are certain

19 elements which are illegible, and this might be of importance. And this

20 is why --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please first answer my question. My

22 question was whether those parts legible, whether the translation caused

23 you any specific concern.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said yes and the -- I said

25 no, and the translation seems to be correct.

Page 7313

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then next question: Are there any other objections

2 against --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. There

4 are other objections which I have presented, and I apologise for this. It

5 is a matter of taking into consideration the fact that part of the text

6 which appears in some of the photocopies, the ones that we have, part of

7 this text can't be found in the documents that were provided by the

8 Prosecution and aren't originals. So yet again, we have casting doubt on

9 the authentic character of these documents and we request that the

10 Prosecution gives us, once and for all, for all these medical documents,

11 that the Prosecution provides us with the originals so that we can have a

12 clear view of them. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me just make one observation

14 in this respect. The Defence is as such not entitled to ask for

15 originals, but of course, and that is the way I understand your objection,

16 they can object against the admissibility of documents because the Defence

17 takes the position that, without having seen the originals, they cannot

18 check whether it is a copy of an original or, as you

19 expressed several times, it is manipulated or changed, or whatever way, a

20 different document.

21 So when you are asking the Prosecution to produce originals, they

22 have just one obligation and that is to provide you with the copies of the

23 documents you have. But I do understand your objection in this way that

24 you say, we object because it is not an original, which is not the same as

25 that the Prosecution should provide you with originals.

Page 7314












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7315

1 We have to decide on the documents presented to us. Let me just

2 confer with my colleagues.

3 Is there any response you would like to make, Mr. Stamp?

4 MR. STAMP: No, Mr. President.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The document is admitted into evidence. We have

7 heard the testimony as far as the handwritten part is concerned. We have

8 heard the testimony as far as the content of the document is concerned.

9 We also have heard the testimony of the witness, a possible explanation

10 for those parts of the document are just shadowy there. The witness

11 testified that under the circumstances at that time one was forced to use

12 several times paper that had been used before.

13 Having given the decisions in this respect and adding to it that

14 the Chamber will, of course, have to assess the probative value of the

15 document, we still had a problem in respect of the attachments to the

16 report of Mr. Donia. I asked the parties. We have seen the

17 correspondence on it. May I first just ask the Prosecution how the

18 Prosecution intends to deal with the attachments to the report of Mr.

19 Donia. I don't know if it is you or Mr. Ierace, Mr. Stamp, that deals

20 with it. If it is Mr. Ierace, then I would rather do it when he is there.

21 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President,

23 there is no translation, unfortunately, and my colleague doesn't have a

24 translation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...until the

Page 7316

1 interpretation is functioning again. I will just go on speaking slowly

2 until I get a sign that the translation is in place again.

3 Yes, I got the sign.

4 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

5 MR. STAMP: If I understand the problem correctly, the Defence

6 would like to have copies of what we designate as open source materials,

7 material coming from documents published in the public domain.

8 JUDGE ORIE: In what way the report of the expert refers to these

9 public domain sources, just by referring or did he attach it to his -- ?

10 MR. STAMP: Just by reference.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Just by reference. Yes.

12 MR. STAMP: The Defence has asked for them, and while we are of

13 the view that in respect to open source material we are not obliged to

14 give them copies, we have delivered to them those that we can immediately

15 lay our hands on and we are undertaking to provide the remainder as

16 quickly as possible just to expedite proceedings and for the convenience

17 of my friends.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that the Prosecution, those open

19 source documents the expert is referring to and has not attached to his

20 report, that those open source documents have been provided to the Defence

21 when they were in the possession and could be easily traced by the

22 Prosecution and that you will further assist the Defence in obtaining

23 copies, if you find them, and you are trying to do your best.

24 MR. STAMP: Indeed. I would not be in a position to say to what

25 extent some of these documents have previously been given to the Defence.

Page 7317

1 However, we delivered nine to them yesterday, I think, and we will give

2 them the rest as soon as possible. And I am referring to whatever

3 documents which are published within the public domain.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That is one issue. There was another issue

5 about two pages that have been provided to the Defence by now. If I am

6 well informed, it was your letter of -- let me just turn -- but there were

7 two specific pages that the Defence asked for and they have been provided

8 as well, as far as I understand. That was page -- let me just have a

9 look. Page 3200 and 3199. I take it from your letter of the 12th of

10 April that they have been provided to the Defence.

11 I am referring to the letter of Mr. Ierace of the 12th of April

12 2002, when he says, "During the break you also mentioned that you are

13 missing pages of 3200 and 3199. We are providing you copies of these

14 pages and will place them in your locker today." So may I take it that

15 you found them, first of all?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the

17 Prosecution says that that is the case and if we haven't found it yet, we

18 will find it. That's no problem.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the other problem

20 about pages 3233 through 3199, so it should be 34 pages of which we had

21 some difficulties in tracing them so as to understand them. Is that part

22 of the problem solved as well? Those pages of which the Prosecution

23 writes to the Defence in the letter of the 12th of April, "During a break

24 you explained that you mean by these number certain pages of the report

25 which are identified by the Registry's pagination and which contained

Page 7318

1 citations or quotes taken from material." Does that still cause any

2 problem or is there no problem in that respect?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I found it

4 difficult to follow you, I have to admit. Are we sure that we are

5 speaking of these pages or have you found the reference?

6 JUDGE ORIE: The letter of the 12th of April, 2002.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] From Mr. Ierace. I will try

8 to find it. I will try to find it and to see about that, thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think there were three letters on the 10th of

10 April. Let me ask you differently. Is there any remaining problem -

11 that's what interests me most, as a matter of fact - in regard of the

12 document? Not the public source documents, but the other documents

13 related to --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

15 that there are other problems. We received under certain -- number

16 certain documents. These documents don't correspond to this designation,

17 to this number. And I pointed out to my learned colleague yesterday

18 evening, I pointed out which documents were in question and I think that

19 we were able to conclude that the documents that we had under this number

20 weren't the ones that the Prosecution should have provided us with. So I

21 don't think that I have received any news about this from the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE ORIE: 3033 through 3199...

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you

24 understand French, could you repeat that question, please?

25 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are the pages 3033

Page 7319

1 up until 3389 concerned?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That could be the case but I

3 will have a look because we have two different figures, but I will see

4 about that. But Prosecution knows because this matter was mentioned

5 during the break.

6 Mr. President, there is a problem which persists and it relates to

7 a cassette. We think that there is a cassette with regard to the

8 intervention made by Mr. Cavic. This cassette was mentioned in a note, a

9 note in page 20, on page 20 of Mr. Donia's report, or certain

10 elements which were quoted in this report, and we think that this

11 interview is absolutely essential in order to be able to see exactly what

12 might have been said or decided in this cassette. So if this cassette

13 was produced, that would be great.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please indicate to me

15 Page 20's footnotes, which footnote --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry, we are talking about --

17 no, it is translation error. It is a note, note 20, and this document by

18 the historian, Robert Donia.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Footnote 20 on page 17, speech by Radovan Karadzic to

20 the Serb people, November 1991.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct. That is

22 exact.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I see that there are ERN numbers. Would that mean

24 that this video is in the possession of the Prosecution?

25 MR. IERACE: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.

Page 7320


2 MR. IERACE: I don't know. We may have it. I will make enquiries

3 as to whether we do, and if we do, then I will provide a copy to the

4 Defence.


6 MR. IERACE: Of course, Mr. Donia relies on a transcript rather

7 than a tape. So although it is not strictly required, if we have it, we

8 will provide it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps the ERN numbers refers to

10 transcripts because I see that it is in two different languages. And

11 since I never noticed any voiceovers, that I assume that it relates to the

12 transcript of the video, at least, and then we can read the text.

13 Are there any other problems in this respect?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

15 document which we were referring to -- which we are referring to, concerns

16 a number, P1262. These are documents which have the ERN number R00460916

17 and the following. But these documents seem to have been introduced,

18 inserted under a number whereas they should not have been. In other

19 words, these documents are perfectly legible, but it seems to us that

20 they have been lost under this number and that there are other documents

21 which we should have found them. It is probably a technical error.

22 Mr. President, yesterday evening, we briefly met with my learned

23 colleagues who are in front of me. I showed it in my dossier; I told them

24 about my problem. And that is the stage we are at.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you think the solution could be found for the

Page 7321

1 problem raised yesterday during your meeting with Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that the problem that he first

3 referred to, that my learned colleague first referred to, may be

4 dealt with by the matter of sorting the document that he has. So perhaps

5 at the next break, he could speak to my case manager. We might be able to

6 overcome that problem.

7 Excuse me, Mr. President.

8 Yes, I think that covers that last concern expressed by Mr.

9 Piletta-Zanin. Might I raise two issues in relation to Mr. Donia as

10 well?


12 MR. IERACE: The first is, I would like to inform you of the

13 course I propose to take in examination-in-chief with Mr. Donia, which is

14 simply to qualify him and then to have him identify his report, and

15 nothing more. In other words, if I take that course, examination in

16 chief should be over in a matter of minutes. I propose to take that

17 course because his report is relatively brief. I don't think it needs any

18 amplification or expansion. This seems to me the most sensible approach.

19 I mention it at this stage firstly so as to invite Your Honours to

20 read the report before he gives his evidence, and secondly, if there would

21 be any objection in relation to that approach or concern from the Bench,

22 that we do amplify it. Then, of course, in relation to the latter

23 concern, I would do it.

24 Mr. President, the second issue is in relation to the material

25 referred to in the footnotes. I take the view that it is not only not

Page 7322

1 necessary but would, in the circumstances, be efficient to not tender that

2 material. If, however, Your Honours would prefer that we did tender it,

3 then we would be happy to do so. So I would be grateful for any

4 indication at this stage or guidance in that respect.

5 Finally, Mr. Donia is able to give evidence from Thursday until

6 and including Monday, being three days. I don't suggest by saying that

7 that three days of cross-examination would be appropriate or anything like

8 that. I simply wish to make clear to Your Honours the period of time that

9 he is available. Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the Chamber is confronted with a

12 situation that when we read the report, we might want to read the

13 footnotes and the material contained in it as well. If ever we would want

14 to rely on these sources, they have to be properly introduced into the

15 trial. That means that the Prosecutor should prepare for tendering the

16 supporting materials as well.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. One

20 of the problems, one of the reasons for which we asked for all these

21 documents, is that we know that Mr. Donia's report is not what we would

22 call in historian's terms, a primary report. It is a secondary report.

23 That is to say, this person was not relying on the information that he

24 may have obtained himself. So it concerns specific -- it didn't concern

25 specific research in archives but he based himself exclusively on the work

Page 7323












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7324

1 or on -- on the work of third parties. So we are on the secondary

2 domain. Without these documents, obviously, we won't be able to see the

3 matter very clearly, all the more so that 80 per cent of these

4 supporting documents, another team made these calculations. Eighty per

5 cent of these documents are documents, the origin of which is partly -- it

6 comes from one side and not from another side. These documents originate

7 from one side, and this is why the Defence is being very careful with such

8 information.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have listened carefully to this observation.

10 Then the last question in relation to Mr. Donia was, until now,

11 the Defence has not given an indication on how much time they would need

12 to cross-examine Mr. Donia. When we asked it before, we heard some

13 objections in relation to documents not yet being provided to the

14 Defence. We now have a better idea of what portion that is, which is a

15 smaller portion, a relatively small portion. Would the Defence please

16 indicate how much time they think they would use for cross-examination of

17 Mr. Donia.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. I suppose, well,

19 don't shoot the messenger. This is a very bad piece of news I am giving

20 you. We are talking about two days of cross-examination. It may be

21 rather exceptional in the light of what the Prosecution has said, but we

22 do have implications there which are probably easy to understand for all

23 of us. Mr. Donia has worked a great deal on contemporary history. He

24 talked about and worked on Austro-Hungary. He is a person who is likely

25 to be able to provide us with extremely information with reference to this

Page 7325

1 entire problem, not just with reference to General Galic or what he might

2 be accused of but all the related issues as well.

3 We all do know that this is a very complex issue we are talking

4 about and therefore we must spend the necessary amount of time on that,

5 and we will probably have to trace all this back to the time in the past

6 in order to be able to get a global and overall view within a historic

7 context of what was likely to happen. And this sort of information is

8 absolutely indispensable in the mind of the Defence.

9 Apart from that, I myself unfortunately are going to be absent on

10 Friday. I very much regret that. I would like to point it out

11 immediately. So that this cross-examination will have to take part in two

12 parts. First of all, I, myself, would like to cross-examine the witness

13 and then Ms. Pilipovic.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...given us the

15 reasons why you would need them. Having dealt with the Donia report --

16 Mr. Ierace, you are nodding no.

17 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President, I have just been handed by the

18 court usher a letter in the elegant French language from my learned

19 colleague which, with my rudimentary understanding of French, I perceive

20 to relate to Mr. Donia. It seems therefore there are some outstanding

21 issues but I can't inform the Trial Chamber what they are. I will take

22 some steps to have the letter translated as quickly as possible

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would please try to learn French, Mr.

24 Ierace, by the next break.

25 I think it is time whether the Prosecution is ready to call its

Page 7326

1 next witness.

2 MR. IERACE: If you'll excuse me, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, it is you who are going to examine

4 the next witness. Mr. Usher, could you please lead in the --

5 MR. STAMP: Before we proceed with that, Mr. President, I don't

6 know if the Court formally received the evidence P1386 and the

7 translation thereof.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 1386. Yes, I think when it was tendered, that we

9 said that it was admitted. Well, we asked for it ourselves. Now we also

10 received a copy with the photographs in P1386 and the copies of the

11 photographs in the translation in P1386.1.

12 Mr. Stamp, then we will wait until the witness has arrived.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, I presume. Mr. Mehonic, before giving

17 testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

18 to make a solemn declaration that you will tell the truth, the whole truth

19 and nothing but the truth. And the text of this solemn declaration will

20 be handed out to you now by the usher, and may I invite you to make that

21 solemn declaration.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

Page 7327


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

4 Prosecution.

5 Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President

7 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

8 Q. Could you start by telling us your name?

9 A. My name is Rasim Mehonic.

10 Q. Where do you live, Mr. Mehonic?

11 A. At the moment, in Sarajevo in Dobrinja.

12 Q. How long have you lived there?

13 A. Since 1984.

14 Q. Do you work now, Mr. Mehonic?

15 A. No, I am a pensioner.

16 Q. And can you recall the years of 1992, 1993, and 1994, were you

17 working then? Were you employed then?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you a pensioner then?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In what part of Sarajevo did you live in 1993?

22 A. Dobrinja.

23 Q. And in what part of Dobrinja did you live at?

24 A. Dobrinja II.

25 Q. Can you recall the 12th of July, 1993?

Page 7328

1 A. Yes, very clearly.

2 Q. Can you tell us -- start by telling us about the weather that day,

3 what was it like?

4 A. It was sunny up until between 3.00 and 4.00, and after the

5 tragedy, it started to rain.

6 Q. Now, the tragedy that you mentioned, where did this happen?

7 A. In Dobrinja, this is called Kvadrant C, at the well.

8 Q. And about what time did this tragedy occur?

9 A. I can't remember exactly. Either at ten to 4.00 or ten after 4.00

10 or something like that.

11 Q. Can you tell us what time you arriveD there before this tragedy

12 occurred?

13 A. I got there at around 10.00, together with my wife, who died, and

14 I had two daughters who had already been there earlier. And they died as

15 well.

16 Q. Your daughters had gone there to collect drinking water; is that

17 so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they would have to line up to wait to get to the pump; is that

20 so?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Can you say about what time your daughters went to join the line?

23 A. At around 2.00 a.m., so that they could get to the pump in good

24 time.

25 Q. After yourself and your wife joined them, which was at about 10.00

Page 7329

1 in the morning, for how long did you remain together?

2 A. We stayed together up until ten to 4.00 or ten past 4.00. I can't

3 remember exactly. At around that time.

4 Q. Now at the time the tragedy occurred, where had you all reached

5 in the line going to the pump?

6 A. I was the second in line. Just one more family was going to

7 collect water and then it was our turn.

8 Q. Now, do you know Enver Taslaman?

9 A. Yes. I was crouching next to him.

10 Q. Where were you crouching? Where was this that you were crouching

11 at next to him?

12 A. In the courtyard where the well and the pump were situated. Next

13 to the wall.

14 Q. What were you doing there next to him?

15 A. Well, I had back pain and I couldn't stand and so I was hoping

16 that there would be somewhere to sit, but he didn't have somewhere to sit

17 and that is why he was crouching and I was crouching next to him.

18 Q. And where were your wife and daughters at this time?

19 A. They were out in the street.

20 Q. Did you see other people there at about that time?

21 A. Yes. I saw other people who were waiting in line, elderly people,

22 women and children.

23 Q. And when you say, "a tragedy occurred," can you tell us what

24 happened?

25 A. Well, I can tell you that a shell landed and killed 12 people and

Page 7330

1 wounded 14 and I, myself, was wounded as well. And that is why I call it

2 a tragedy.

3 Q. When this shell landed, did you see or hear anything?

4 A. I just heard the explosion since I was in the courtyard. I heard

5 the explosion. I tried to get out and check on my family. I was stepping

6 over dead and wounded bodies. I managed to get out and I saw that they

7 were all dead, and then I fainted as well and I don't know what happened

8 afterwards.

9 Q. Well, did you step out through the gate into the road?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you see outside the gate?

12 A. What else could I see but 12 dead bodies and 14 or 15 wounded?

13 Q. Where was your family at the time, your wife and daughters?

14 A. They were lying dead in the street, one closer to the railing next

15 to the gate, and my daughters were out in the street lying there

16 dead.

17 Q. You said you fainted. Were you taken anywhere after that?

18 A. Yes. Somebody picked me up, I don't know who it was, and they

19 took me to the hospital.

20 Q. Did you suffer any injuries and, if so, can you just tell us about

21 them, please.

22 A. Yes. The entire left side of my body was covered in wounds, and I

23 still have a piece of shrapnel in my lung. It is lodged in my lung.

24 Q. And which hospital did you go to?

25 A. The Dobrinja Hospital.

Page 7331

1 Q. Can you say how long you remained at Dobrinja Hospital?

2 A. 24 hours. Then I was taken to Kosevo Hospital, to the pulmonary

3 unit, where I had surgery.

4 Q. Can you say why you were taken -- well, you were taken to the

5 Kosevo Hospital for surgery. Where did you travel to get to Kosevo

6 Hospital from Dobrinja? Can you tell us about that?

7 A. Yes, I was conscious at that stage. We went down the main road,

8 although it was close to traffic. When we drove by, a sniper shot at us

9 and I asked the driver, "Why are you talking this road?" And he replied:

10 "Well, it is a matter of life and death for you."

11 Q. You recall what vehicle you travelled in to go to Kosevo

12 Hospital?

13 A. Yes, I remember that clearly. It was a Golf Volkswagen.

14 Q. And was anybody in the car, do you know, dressed in military

15 uniform or had weapons?

16 A. No, no. Nobody else. I was alone with the driver.

17 Q. How many times was the car shot at?

18 A. None.

19 Q. Can you remember the route that you took to Kosevo Hospital?

20 A. Yes. From Dobrinja to Nedzarici, because there was no other

21 possibility. And then we drove down another road; I can't remember what

22 the name of the street is, it has been changed, in the direction of

23 Marinevoj [phoen], and then from Marinevoj in the direction of the

24 hospital.

25 Q. Did you say that when you drove by to get to Kosevo Hospital, a

Page 7332












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7333

1 sniper shot at you or shot at the vehicle that you were in?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Apparently no, but the interpreters haven't

3 heard it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, all your answers are translated to us

5 because we do not understand your language. We see you nodding, but the

6 interpreters who are sitting behind you cannot see the expression of your

7 face. So would you please answer by speaking words.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I must make an

9 objection here, Mr. President, because I get the impression that the

10 witness has already replied to the questions as to how many times they

11 were shot at and he said "none."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the objection is denied

13 because he always testified that he was sniped at. So there is a

14 contradiction at this moment in his answers and, therefore, the objection

15 is denied. Mr. Stamp is entitled to have the issue clarified.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. How long did you remain in the hospital?

18 A. Between 8 and 10 days. I can't remember. And I wasn't actually

19 cured. I still had a shunt and the blood was being drained out of my

20 lungs and the lining of the lungs, and it is just that the hospital was

21 full and they had no spare beds so I was sent home.

22 Q. You said that you still have a piece of shrapnel in your left

23 lung. Do you suffer any --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- other long-term physical disability from your injuries that

Page 7334

1 day?

2 A. Yes. I can't lie on my left side at all. Probably I have a

3 problem because of that injury.

4 Q. Your wife and daughters, two daughters died. Were they buried?

5 A. Not on that day. Because we couldn't even have them -- have a

6 burial before the night fell.

7 Q. And did you attend that funeral?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Before the incident of the 12th of July, 1993, was there shelling

10 and sniping in that part of Dobrinja where you lived at?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreters didn't hear.


13 Q. Would you please repeat your answer.

14 A. Yes. Yes, there was sniping and shelling.

15 Q. Can you say where the sniping came from?

16 A. Yes, I could say approximately from Lukavica.

17 Q. And the shelling, can you say where the shelling came from?

18 A. Well, I can't tell exactly where from. There were two places

19 where shells used to come from, Gavrica Brdo and Sumarska Skola in Alija.

20 Q. When you were discharged from the Kosevo Hospital, did you

21 receive a medical document?

22 A. Yes, I did, a letter of discharge which I enclosed.

23 Q. Did you bring that letter of discharge to The Hague when you

24 travelled here?

25 A. Yes, and I submitted it.

Page 7335

1 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I

2 tender to the witness Exhibit P1517C.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: And to the Court, that document as well as P1517C.1,

5 which is a translation.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That is the translation, yes.


8 Q. Is that document that you have there a copy of the medical release

9 papers that you brought with you to The Hague?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You mentioned an area, Gavrica Brdo. Can you say which party to

12 the conflict controlled that area? Was it the Bosnian Serb army or was it

13 the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. The Bosnian Serb army. Both of these locations.

15 Q. Now, where did you live? Can you remember what type of building

16 you lived in, in Dobrinja?

17 A. It was a six-storey building. I can't remember how long the

18 building was. It had four entrances.

19 Q. Was it occupied or used by the military?

20 A. No. They were flats, private plats there. People lived in them.

21 Q. Was this building ever shelled?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Can you say in 1993 and 1994, going up to August, approximately

24 how many times that building was hit by shells?

25 A. Seven times.

Page 7336

1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, very much, Mr. President. That concludes

2 the examination-in-chief.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

4 Before giving an opportunity to the Defence to put questions to

5 you, Mr. Mehonic, do you still have the document in front of you, P1517?

6 Or Mr. Usher, could you please put it in front of him?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: As you might see in the left part of it,

9 approximately the fifth line, it says, as far as I can read: "PIO, BIH

10 Sarajevo." That is the line where the first word reads - I am certainly

11 pronouncing it wrongly - " Radno" and "Osiguranje." Could you tell us

12 what "PIO" stands for?

13 A. No, I don't know.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine

15 the witness?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mehonic, good day.

21 A. Good day.

22 Q. Could you confirm that on the 23rd of February, 1993, you made a

23 statement in the Ministry of the Interior, the security services centre

24 in Sarajevo, with regards to the incident that happened on the 12th of

25 July, 1993?

Page 7337

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The statement that you gave on that occasion, did you sign it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From the time of that incident in which, as you said, you lost two

5 daughters and a wife and you were wounded, from that moment onwards, did

6 someone from the authorities, from the government or from the BH army,

7 speak to you about that incident?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So the first time was on the 23rd of February, 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you confirm whether in that same year, in February, you gave

12 a statement to the investigators for the Prosecution?

13 A. In the same year, yes, but I can't remember the exact date.

14 Q. On the 12th of July, you said that you were in Kvadrant C in

15 Dobrinja?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell us which street that is, what the name of the

18 street was?

19 A. No, because I wasn't interested in going around there unless it

20 was necessary to go there to collect water.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP: This is not an objection, it is a request for

23 clarification. Perhaps if my friend -- this is we could do in

24 re-examination, but I see here a couple of questions here being asked

25 about a statement being made on the 23rd of February, 1993 in respect of

Page 7338

1 an incident that occurred on the 12th of July in the same year. That is

2 what I have in my record, the 23rd of February. I don't know if my friend

3 wants to clarify that or if you could save it for later.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, could you clarify the issue? It

5 reads on the transcript, on page 61, line 9, your question was: "So the

6 first time was on the 23rd of February, 1993." I am sure that was a

7 mistake. Where the mistake was made doesn't interest me that much. What

8 year did you have in mind while putting the question to the witness?

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I asked the

10 witness the question, I was talking about the statement of the 23rd of

11 February, 1995.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That clarififies the issue.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness said that in

14 1995, on the 23rd of February, he gave a statement for the first time to

15 the authorities of the ministry of the government of the Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina with regards to the incident that took place on the 12th of

17 July, 1993.

18 Q. Mr. Mehonic, you said that in that same year you spoke to and

19 gave a statement to the investigators for the Prosecution?

20 A. Yes, I confirm that but I don't remember the exact date, whether

21 it was in the same year, around the new year, but I don't remember.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mehonic.

23 My last question before we spoke about this problem was: Do you

24 know what the name of the street was in Kvadrant C?

25 A. No.

Page 7339

1 Q. Could you tell us how far you were -- how far your flat was from

2 the place you went to to collect water?

3 A. 100 metres.

4 Q. Before the 12th of July, 1993, did you go to collect water? Did

5 you go to that street to collect water?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. On that day on the 12th of July, when you went there, you said

8 that you arrived at about 10.00 in the morning. Could you tell us how

9 many people there were in the street?

10 A. I can't give you an exact number, but about 100. There were about

11 100 canisters, about 100 containers of water, so there must have been the

12 same number of people.

13 Q. When you say that there were about 100 canisters, is it on the

14 basis of the number of canisters that you have come to the conclusion that

15 there were 100 people or were there actually 100 people?

16 A. I concluded on the basis of the canisters because I couldn't see

17 the people as they were hiding under the stairway and I couldn't count

18 the people.

19 Q. So you are telling us that in the street where you saw the

20 canisters, you weren't able to see the people; the people weren't lining

21 up in a traditional line?

22 A. How could they line up as there were snipers shooting and they

23 wouldn't let anyone in peace? Would you stand there and let someone

24 shoot at you?

25 Q. Mr. Mehonic, the street in which you were waiting in line, you and

Page 7340

1 your family, to collect water, how far was the sniper from that street?

2 Could you indicate the positions?

3 A. No, I can't. I don't know anything about that. I wasn't a

4 soldier and I wasn't involved in that. I only know that shots were fired.

5 Q. Mr. Mehonic, with regard to the place where the incident took

6 place, do you know how far the confrontation lines were from that site?

7 A. No, I never measured this neither in metres or kilometre. I don't

8 know anything about this. The army knows about this. I wasn't a soldier.

9 This is something I don't know.

10 Q. Was it possible, given the street and the buildings in that

11 street, in your opinion, was it possible to see that place from the

12 position held by the army of the Republika Srpska?

13 A. From Gavrica Brdo, yes, it was possible to see it from that

14 position, but from Nedzarici, no, it wasn't.

15 Q. Could you tell us how far Gavrica Brdo is from the place where

16 you were waiting in line for water?

17 A. I don't know whether I can give you a precise answer, but about 2

18 kilometres, or maybe a kilometre and a half or something like that.

19 Because it is elevated, it is possible to have a good view of this.

20 Q. Mr. Mehonic, you have told us that you don't know how far the

21 front lines were from the place where you were waiting for water.

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. I am going to show you part of your statement which you gave to

24 the investigators for the Prosecution on the 12th of November, 1995 -- the

25 20th of November. That is document 009 -- 008131 is the translation. It

Page 7341












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7342

1 is the second page of the document. You said, "In the meantime the

2 Bosnian army had advanced in that area and part of the conflict moved over

3 towards Nedzarici."

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. "On the other side, it was protected by the presence of UNPROFOR

6 at the airport?"

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "But at that time the confrontation line was very near. It was

9 about 50 metres away."

10 A. You have asked me a question about where the crime took place, and

11 that was further from there. But where we went to collect water, that is

12 quite correct, I gave that, I said that, but that wasn't 50 to 100 metres

13 away. There was no water there then. The water supply had been cut off.

14 Q. So you are telling us that there was another place for water?

15 A. There were several places because the entire settlement could not

16 have collected water just from one place. People went wherever they

17 could get water.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I ask you, you cited the witness

19 where in his written statement he says, "In the meantime the Bosnian army

20 had advanced in that area." Could you inform the Court what "in the

21 meantime," means. It seems that it does not relate to a specific moment.

22 Could you please clarify for us what we have to understand by "in the

23 meantime."

24 Or ask the witness, or I don't know what he was referring to "in

25 the meantime," but it is not a single moment.

Page 7343

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 The witness spoke about the place where people went to collect water.

3 Before saying "in the meantime," before the word "in the meantime," I will

4 read out what the witness stated. I just wanted to be brief. "Before

5 this incident, no one was killed or wounded in the immediate vicinity of

6 that site. At that time, the place could be seen very well from the

7 Serbian positions. In the meantime, the Bosnian army made progress." I

8 am going to ask the witness what time he was thinking of when he spoke

9 about the progress made by the Bosnian army.

10 MS. PILOPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Mehonic, when you said in your statement that "in the meantime

12 the Bosnian army had made progress," could you tell us what period you

13 were referring to? Was it before the incident of the 12th of July or was

14 it after that incident?

15 A. It was after the 12th of July.

16 Q. When you said that, "The Bosnian army had advanced in that area,"

17 can you confirm that there was fighting in that area between two armies?

18 A. I don't know. That is probably the case, but I wasn't present so

19 I don't know.

20 Q. Could you confirm, Mr. Mehonic, whether in the part of Dobrinja

21 in which you lived, if there was fighting in the surroundings of Dobrinja

22 and does that involve Ilidza, Lukavica and Igman, and was it possible to

23 hear armed conflict in Dobrinja and fighting was going on?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On that day when you went to the house where people were waiting

Page 7344

1 for water and where the well was located, can you tell us whether you

2 know who owned that house, who lived in that house?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 Q. You told us that you were sitting with a man whom you knew and

5 you also said that, when my learned colleague asked you a question, you

6 said that this person was Taslaman Enver?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us whether he was waiting in the line for water or

9 did he have some kind of duty?

10 A. No. He had some sort of duty. He had to maintain order in the

11 line or something like that. What do I know.

12 Q. You said you were sitting?

13 A. Crouching, that is what I said because there was nothing for me to

14 sit on.

15 Q. I apologise, you said you were crouching.

16 Could you tell us whether there were other people in the yard?

17 A. Well, yes, there were people who collecting water and people who

18 had collected water. They would take turns. There were some who would

19 come and others who would go, that is why this happened.

20 Q. Do you remember whether there were young people in the yard who

21 were sitting there and playing cards?

22 A. Not in the yard, but in the street.

23 Q. Could you tell us how old these young people were?

24 A. Well, about -- they were born in 1950, I would say, something like

25 that. Girls and boys. I don't know exactly.

Page 7345

1 Q. At the time you were there, did you notice whether there were any

2 soldiers who were waiting in the line?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. To the best of your recollection, could you tell us how the BH

5 army was dressed, do you know anything about this?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. You told us that, in response to a question from my learned

8 colleague, you told us that on that day it was sunny and that after the

9 incident, it rained?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was it raining while you were there, too?

12 A. I said that it started raining after the incident. Afterwards, I

13 was in a state of shock and I don't know what happened afterwards.

14 Q. To the best of your recollection on the basis of what you can

15 remember, you told us that after you had found out that your family had

16 died, you told us that you were in a state of a shock. On the basis of

17 your -- of what you can remember, can you tell us again whether there

18 were people who died in the yard?

19 A. Yes, there were, but I didn't count them.

20 Q. After you left the hospital, did you try to find out where the

21 shell fell?

22 A. Yes, I did. And there is still a trace in the street, there is a

23 hole in the street, in the asphalt.

24 Q. So you can confirm that on the 12th of July, the shell that had

25 exploded made a crater in the street?

Page 7346

1 A. Yes, there is a hole at the site where the shell exploded.

2 Q. Are you telling us that that shell exploded in the street then?

3 A. Yes, this is what I am claiming. And this can be proved.

4 Whoever wants to see this can go and see it for himself.

5 Q. Given that you told us that you know that at the site where the

6 shell fell a trace was left, did you find out which direction that shell

7 came from?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. You told us that the place where the waterline was, was in

10 Kvadrant C.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In your statement which you gave to the investigators for the

13 Prosecution, you said that, when speaking about that incident, in the

14 continuation of your statement which I have read out to you, when you

15 spoke about the lines that were 50 metres away, you said that the closest

16 position held by the Serbs was called Kvadrant C?

17 A. All of this came under Kvadrant C, but it was towards Nedzarici.

18 The positions were closer to that. There was a well there but it dried up

19 so we were a bit further away from there.

20 Q. Can you tell us: You said that the building you lived in was 500

21 or 600 metres from the place where you were waiting for water?

22 A. Yes, something like that. I didn't measure it but I think that

23 it is approximately something like that.

24 Q. You said that, when my learned colleague asked you a question, you

25 said that the building in which you lived was shelled. I think that you

Page 7347

1 said it was shelled on seven occasions?

2 A. Yes, that's right, and one woman was killed.

3 Q. Could you tell us during which period this building was shelled,

4 in the year 1992, 1993 or 1994?

5 A. Well, it was more or less in 1993 and 1994. I don't know exactly,

6 but something like this.

7 Q. How far were the front lines from your building and the street in

8 which you lived, the front lines where the BH army and the army with the

9 Republika Srpska was?

10 A. I didn't measure it but they weren't very far. Well, maybe about

11 a kilometre or so. I don't know exactly.

12 Q. When you say, "about a kilometre," are you saying that these

13 positions were in Dobrinja or outside of Dobrinja?

14 A. In Dobrinja IV.

15 Q. When you say that the front lines of the BH army and the army of

16 Republika Srpska, are you telling us that these were the positions of

17 both armies? Are you telling us that the positions of both armies were

18 one kilometre from your house or just the position of one of the armies?

19 A. You asked me how far the positions of the Serbian army were from

20 my house. I can't tell you how far the position of the Bosnian army was

21 from my house.

22 Q. Was the BH army anywhere in the vicinity in the house or the

23 street in which you lived?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. In 1992 and 1993 and 1994, were you able to hear shooting in that

Page 7348

1 part of Dobrinja?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you able to determine who was shooting?

4 A. No, I wasn't.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Defence has no

6 further questions.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: There was no question, Mr. Mehonic. It was just Ms.

9 Pilipovic telling us that she had no further questions for you.

10 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

11 MR. STAMP: Just one area, if I am permitted.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

14 Q. You said there is an asphalt -- I beg your pardon, you said there

15 is an impact trace of a shell in the asphalt in front of the gate of the

16 premises of where this tragedy occurred; is that correct?

17 Mr. Mehonic? May I repeat the question?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear Mr. Stamp, Mr. Mehonic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are asking me this question,

20 I didn't understand it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the question, Mr. Stamp.


23 Q. There is a shell impact mark on the asphalt near the gate where

24 the tragedy occurred; is that correct?

25 A. I am sorry, I can't hear you very well at all and I can't

Page 7349

1 understand.

2 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some -- could we perhaps just

3 change --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I also have problems hearing

5 Mr. Stamp. It is not always very clear. I don't know whether this is

6 purely a technical problem or whether there is some other problem. I

7 don't know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Hearing Mr. Stamp is one thing, but hearing the

9 translation in your earphones is another thing.

10 Could you perhaps, Mr.

11 Usher, see whether a change of earphones would be of any help.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, could you please tell me whether you can

14 hear the translation of my words well?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all that well, but at least a

16 bit better than before now.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think these are the few last questions, so would

18 you please try to concentrate and see what you can hear. If you have any

19 difficulties in hearing the questions, then please tell me so that we will

20 see what we can do about it.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear very well and that

22 means that I don't really understand the questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Stamp, you could also use a language

24 which -- such that the witness will not only hear the language, but also

25 understand the language -- the questions.

Page 7350












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7351

1 MR. STAMP: For a moment I thought the Court was inviting me to

2 try out B/C/S, but I think I should just ask the questions more simply. I

3 am guided by the Court.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I am quite sure that even the subtleties of your

5 language will be translated as well.


7 Q. There is an impact, a shell impact site, near the gate where the

8 tragedy occurred; is that correct?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. And that is on the asphalt surface of the road?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you spent some time in the hospital. Can you recall how

13 long?

14 A. About eight days. Because there were no spare beds and I had to

15 go home, even though I was still sick.

16 Q. Would you --

17 MR. STAMP: With the Court's leave, could I ask the usher to hand

18 to the witness P1517C.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


21 Q. If you look at that document about seven lines from the top, can

22 you tell us about when you were discharged from the hospital?

23 A. It must be written somewhere. I can't see anything. I can't find

24 it on this paper.

25 MR. STAMP: I think we might have another translation difficulty

Page 7352

1 here which perhaps we might have to recify after this witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp, I am afraid that you are confronted

3 with a problem which is not entirely new to us. Would you be able to ask

4 the witness whether he could show the document he has brought, as he told

5 us, or whether it is still in his possession.


7 Q. Do you have the original document in your possession, Mr. Mehonic,

8 and if you do, could we have a look at it, please?

9 A. Well, it is not here at the moment. It is where I am staying at.

10 Q. Would you be willing to bring it here tomorrow?

11 A. Yes, certainly.

12 Q. You said you were discharged about eight days later?

13 A. Yeah, thereabouts.

14 Q. When that shell of the 12th of July, 1993, exploded, did you see

15 where it landed yourself? Did you see at that time where it landed?

16 A. No.

17 Q. After you were discharged from the hospital, you were shown the

18 impact site on the asphalt?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you recall about how long after the incident of the 12th of

21 July, 1993, that you were shown that impact site on the asphalt?

22 A. About a month later, because I couldn't walk. I was on crutches.

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further. I would,

24 though, subject to the Court, of course, suggest and propose that the

25 witness be subject to be recalled tomorrow.

Page 7353


2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for

4 you.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Mehonic, I

7 will read the question and the answer you gave to the Chamber. The

8 question was: "Could you tell us how far you were, how far your flat was

9 from the place you went to collect water?" And the answer was: "100

10 metres." After that, you said "500 or 600 metres." Which is the correct

11 answer?

12 A. Between 500 and 600 metres.

13 JUDGE NEITO-NAVIA: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, you have given answers to all the

15 questions put to you until now. Nevertheless, the Prosecution has asked

16 whether you could come back tomorrow and I --

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- would ask you to bring tomorrow the discharge

19 letter we have been speaking about today, of which a copy has been shown

20 to you. But could you bring the discharge letter as it has been given to

21 you and as you told is in your possession? I do understand that it is in

22 the place where you live in The Hague here and not in Sarajevo; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, absolutely.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please bring that document with you if

Page 7354

1 you come back tomorrow and that would then be at a quarter past 2.00

2 tomorrow in the afternoon? I don't think it will take much time, but

3 there might be some additional questions, perhaps in relation to this

4 document.

5 So, therefore, you are not finally excused yet. We expect you to

6 come back tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00. But for today, this is the

7 end of your examination as a witness. So we hope to see you back

8 tomorrow, and for this moment, you are excused.

9 Yes, Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness, Mr. Mehonic,

10 out of the courtroom.

11 I hope to see you back tomorrow, Mr. Mehonic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for until a quarter past 6.00, and

15 may I take it that all preparations will be made as far as the voice

16 distortion, especially, require, so that we can start immediately at a

17 quarter past 6.00. We will adjourn until then.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.

19 --- Upon resuming at 6.16 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: If I may just take the opportunity to apologise for

22 being a couple of minutes late. We were trying to clarify the issue in

23 respect to the translation of the document just now, which we have. I

24 don't know if it will be dealt with now or tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If you could just briefly explain so I can sleep

Page 7355

1 better tonight.

2 MR. STAMP: The hospital gave the witness a copy when he was

3 discharged or around that time, and a couple years later, I think there

4 are translation problems --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we cannot hear

6 Mr. Stamp.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I noticed that again and again, there

8 seems to be some problem with your microphone. I am not suggesting the

9 order. Could you perhaps change place or microphones, and perhaps if you

10 also come a bit closer to the microphone that might be helpful as well. I

11 never hear it because you have a loud voice, so even without the

12 earphones, I would hear what you have to say. That is, of course, not

13 true, for those who are dependentant on the technique.

14 Yes.

15 MR. STAMP: Yes. The witness obtained one copy and the hospital

16 retained one copy which was subsequently delivered to us in 1995 or 1996.

17 When it was delivered to us, the date of this discharge was added. So

18 the original translation had that date which doesn't appear on the copy

19 which he got in 1993 when he was discharged. This is what I am told is

20 the reason for the difference.


22 MR. STAMP: The original is going to be available.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then without a date?

24 MR. STAMP: Without that date.


Page 7356

1 MR. STAMP: The Prosecution by tomorrow will determine whether or

2 not we would be in a position to tender the one that we originally

3 obtained from the hospital.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's deal with it tomorrow. I think that is the

5 best way to do it. It is good that we have this discussion in the absence

6 of the witness. Then we just received a letter. Let me just... It is a

7 letter of Mr. Piletta-Zanin and I see signed in the elegant French

8 language. I see that it is about documents. I think it would be wise

9 first to see what answer will be given to the questions of Mr.

10 Piletta-Zanin.

11 Did the break give the parties the opportunity to clarify the

12 issue of the documents we were talking about before? I think it was

13 your case manager, Mr. Stamp, who would assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. STAMP: I am afraid that they did not succeed in clarifying

15 that issue of documents, but that could be done at the end of the next

16 break.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You would say it was caused by lack of time rather

18 than not being able to...

19 MR. STAMP: We haven't been shown the documents yet. We would

20 expect the documents would be shown to us by the Defence so that we could

21 sort through them.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, those are the

23 documents that I had shown to my learned friend yesterday. I mentioned

24 that the ones that followed, the papers that followed were not a part of

25 that document, and in as far as the document itself is concerned, there

Page 7357

1 was no continuity and of course I expect an answer, quite simply. And the

2 letter in question that you have in front of you, Mr. President, generally

3 speaking, should not even have been submitted to you. But since the

4 Prosecution always keeps submitting these papers to you, I can't help

5 having to clarify. I thought it was a matter that could be settled

6 between the Defence and the Prosecution.

7 As far as I can tell, inasfar as this particular document is

8 concerned, the documents or the elements that would be useful to us would

9 be other elements, for example, R00 --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not repeat. I would like to hear by tomorrow

11 in the afternoon whether you are able to -- there seems to be to some

12 extent no communication, to some extent also perhaps a bit. Give it

13 another try tomorrow in the afternoon and see whether you can solve it or

14 not. If not, we will further deal with it.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite, Mr. President. Perhaps

16 during the break, because we are now almost at the end of the hearing,

17 perhaps the oral answer which should have been given to us during the day

18 could be given to us, that is to say with reference to the dates. And

19 would that be possible?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Reference to the dates. I am afraid I do not exactly

21 understand what you are referring to.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe, Mr. President,

23 that you have mentioned that the Prosecution could let us know as of

24 tomorrow or, rather, as of today about some answers such as when the

25 Prosecution was informed of the fact that the shrapnel, whatever, would no

Page 7358

1 longer be admissible, and we wanted to know whether this deadline until

2 tomorrow be satisfactory.

3 MR. STAMP: The letter indicating that the shrapnel had not been

4 located was dated the 25th of October, 2001.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That is when you finally found out.

6 MR. STAMP: We would have received it within a short time after

7 that date.


9 MR. STAMP: The date of receipt is not yet clarified but it would

10 have been within a week after that date.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then you were informed that it was not available?

12 MR. STAMP: Yes, not available.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to understand something.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just wanted to thank the

15 Prosecution, that's all.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, the Prosecution is ready to call

17 the next witness? That would be a protected witness, as far as I

18 understand, with a pseudonym "Q" and voice and facial distortion.

19 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is everything effective at this moment? One moment,

21 please.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness into

24 the courtroom and may I remind the parties to switch off your microphones.

25 For you perhaps not a big difference, today, Mr. Stamp, but to put off

Page 7359












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7360

1 your microphones when the witness is answering your questions.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could I proceed or is there something so

5 urgent as to --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do please proceed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, because that is how I will call you and that

8 is how everyone will call you in this courtroom, Mr. Q, can you hear me

9 in a language you understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, before giving testimony in this court, and

12 you will give testimony in this court not recognisable for the outside

13 world because neither your name is used, nor your face can be seen, nor

14 your original voice can be heard, before giving testimony in this court,

15 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

16 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

17 but the truth. The text of the declaration will be given to you now by

18 the usher, and may I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Q.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, you will first be examined by counsel for the

25 Prosecution.

Page 7361

1 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

2 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

3 Q. Witness Q, with the leave of the court, I shall hand you a

4 document and I am going to ask you to look at it and then I will ask you

5 a couple of questions.

6 MR. STAMP: May I, with your leave, Mr. President?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Document P3680 [Real-time transcript read in

10 error "P368"].

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, you may fold it over now.

12 Q. Do you see your name on that document, yes or no?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you see your date of birth on it?

15 A. I do.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the sake

18 of the transcript, the paper I got in front of me is 3680 and that is not

19 what we can read in the transcript. I know that it is going to be re-read

20 and checked once again, but for the sake of clarity.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the transcript only says 368 and it is 3680.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Are you a police officer?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7362

1 Q. And do you live in the city of Sarajevo?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. When did you become a police officer? You could just tell us the

4 month and the year.

5 A. In August 1993.

6 Q. And after you became a police officer, in what city did you work?

7 A. In Sarajevo.

8 Q. Did you have any special responsibilities as a police officer and,

9 if so, could you briefly tell us the nature of those responsibilities?

10 A. I worked at the criminal police service, at the security service.

11 So my job was the investigations once a crime had been committed. In

12 1993, I finished a special course to qualify for that job and so I started

13 to work officially, as I said, in the month that I started my career as a

14 police officer.

15 Q. What was your profession, if any, before you became a

16 police officer?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Student, and I had my own business.


20 Q. Now, did you have any special duties when you began to work as a

21 police officer?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What part would you play in the investigations of crimes?

24 A. For the most part, I was involved in cases in Novi Grad, which was

25 the area where I lived, and I worked in the Centar as well as bit. The

Page 7363

1 municipalities of Centar and Novo Sarajevo, so those were the

2 municipalities that I worked in.

3 Q. What type of cases were you involved in investigating?

4 A. All cases where there was any reason to start criminal

5 proceedings. So whenever there was a crime such as a burglary, a killing,

6 arson, whenever a crime was involved, we had to deal with it.

7 Q. And you said, "we." Did you work with other police officers in

8 the investigations?

9 A. Obviously, of course I worked with other police officers because I

10 was not the only member of any team. Any investigation team or inquiry

11 was made up of a judge, other police officers, experts and I, myself, as a

12 forensic expert.

13 Q. Now, what was the normal procedures that you would apply or that

14 would be applied in gathering a team and proceeding and beginning an

15 investigation of a crime?

16 A. Well, as soon as any crime was reported, I took my equipment, the

17 equipment which was necessary for the purposes of the investigation, and

18 then I would wait for the entire team to assemble at a certain spot, at a

19 meeting point. Generally speaking, some people were not necessarily from

20 the same area where I was on duty. For example, a judge or an inspector

21 or somebody else might have come from downtown if we talk about crimes in

22 my own area. So I would wait for them at the police station, the one that

23 was the Centar or where the public security services were situated, and

24 once they got there, we would go to the scene.

25 Upon our arrival at the scene of the crime, we would investigate

Page 7364

1 the situation, and uniformed policemen as a rule should have been there

2 beforehand and they would have had to organise security so as to prevent

3 anyone tampering with any proof, material proof. Upon our arrival, we

4 would examine the crime scene. Then further actions were undertaken,

5 depending on the case in point. For example, we would draw a sketch of

6 the crime scene and then we would take measurements and take pictures and

7 the pictures would be marked adequately, and then we would collect any

8 samples of possible proof which was then packaged and sent off to

9 laboratories for further tests.

10 Q. As a forensic expert, did your task at the crime scene involve

11 collecting samples and taking photographs of the scene?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did it involve anything else?

14 A. My job was to inspect the scene, take pictures, make the drawings,

15 collect samples and send them off.

16 Q. Now, can you recall the 22nd of January, 1994? Did you

17 investigate an incident which occurred at Alipasino Polje on that day?

18 A. Yes, I do remember that. I do remember that event.

19 Q. In January 1994, which district -- you need not tell us the

20 address, which district did you live in?

21 A. I used to live in Alipasino Polje.

22 Q. And you said your normal police working area was Novi Grad. Did

23 that include Alipasino Polje?

24 A. Alipasino Polje is a direct in Novi Grad, a settlement in Novi

25 Grad. It is a part of town.

Page 7365

1 Q. Now, where were you when you first heard of the incident which

2 occurred on the 22nd of January, 1994?

3 A. I was in the premises of the security services station in Novi

4 Grad.

5 Q. And did you, along with a team, go to Alipasino Polje?

6 A. Yes. I was in the team.

7 Q. When you arrived at Alipasino Polje, did you conduct an

8 investigation, and if so, can you tell us what you observed and what you

9 did.

10 A. When we arrived on the site, I saw that two shells had fallen in

11 front of the buildings at a distance of about 20 metres perhaps. There

12 was a lot of blood and traces of tissue in the vicinity of the explosion.

13 At the site where the explosion occurred in Klara Zetkin Street, there was

14 a sleigh near the explosion and near that sleigh, there was traces of

15 tissue and there was quite a bit of it, whereas the traces of blood were

16 more visible at the site where the explosion occurred in Cetinska Street.

17 When we arrived at the location, I noticed -- I only noticed the traces of

18 one of the shells because we didn't immediately go to the site after

19 the explosion. We waited for the whole team to assemble. What happened

20 to the traces of the second shell, we don't know because when we arrived

21 at the site, we didn't notice any traces of that second shell.

22 I took some photographs --

23 Q. What do you mean by, "traces of a shell"? What traces are you

24 speaking of?

25 A. The main trace that a shell leaves is its stabiliser, it's a

Page 7366

1 mortar shell, and this was the case. And I found one such stabiliser.

2 And there was shrapnel that could be found in the immediate vicinity, too.

3 Q. You said one shell fell at Klara Zetkin Street and another at

4 Cetinska Street. Could you describe those streets and the area around

5 which the shells fell.

6 A. That is a residential area, so those two streets, Cetinska and

7 Klara Street, join up at a crossroads and they form of a sort of round

8 about, a circular road which encircles the entire settlement. Next to

9 those streets there are buildings with several floors. In fact, there are

10 skyscrapers of ten stories and behind those buildings there is a grass

11 area or, rather, a park. The Klara Zetkin Street and Cetinska are open

12 for traffic, whereas it's a pedestrian area between the buildings.

13 Q. Can you recall about how far apart the two shells, one which fell

14 on Klara Zetkin and the other on Cetinska Street, were, how far apart

15 these two shells fell?

16 A. You are referring to the time? A few minutes.

17 Q. Very well, a few minutes, but I was referring to the distance

18 between the two shells. Can you say approximately how far it was?

19 A. Between -- well, about 50 metres.

20 Q. You said you took photographs of the scene. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Did you receive information, and from your observation I take it

23 you would have concluded that there were casualties from this incident?

24 A. As a result of the explosion of that shell, six children died and

25 several people were wounded. I couldn't provide you with an exact number

Page 7367

1 because the information on the wounded was gathered subsequently because

2 the wounded were taken to the first -- to the closest hospitals and to the

3 closest emergency services. So other members of the investigatative teams

4 would carry that out. I received information a little after the

5 investigation itself was carried out.

6 Q. You said "as a result of explosion," as if singular. One

7 explosion, six children died. Did the children die from -- as a result of

8 one explosion or both explosions?

9 A. I carried out one investigation which concerned two explosions.

10 Whether they died because of both explosions -- well, after the

11 investigation had been carried out, I found out -- I determined that six

12 children had died. Whether they died because of both of the explosions

13 or because of one of them, I don't know. But my investigation related to

14 both explosions.

15 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, in respect to the

16 photograph that he said that he took, I beg to tender to him Exhibit

17 P2172. I believe it is already in evidence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: At least in your list it appears, as I recall.

19 MR. STAMP: Before it is put anywhere -- very well. I just would

20 remind the usher that the front part of the document is under seal and

21 should not be shown on the cameras.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps to avoid whatever mistake, put a yellow

23 sticker anyhow on the front page.

24 Mr. Q, just to make sure whenever your name might appear, that no

25 one can see it.

Page 7368












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7369

1 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


3 Q. Would you quickly have a look at the photographs in that folder.

4 Please have a look at the photographs.

5 Are these the photographs you took of the scene of the 21st --

6 scene of the events of the 21st of January, 1994?

7 A. Yes, they are.

8 Q. There is some typescript -- I beg your pardon --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please switch on your microphone, Mr.

10 Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

12 Q. The events which I refer to are the events of the 22nd of January

13 1994. These pictures are the pictures from that event? Are they?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Now, there is some typescript below these photographs. Who wrote

17 that?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Please have a look at the photographs on page 1. I don't know if

20 it could be put on the ELMO.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you put it on the ELMO so that

22 you can either look to your right, Mr. Q, when you see the photograph or

23 look on your screen where it also appears.


25 Q. In that picture, do you see snow on the ground?

Page 7370

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the weather like that day?

3 A. It was fairly cloudy, but there was no precipitation. It was

4 perhaps a little warmer, as far as I can remember, compared to the days

5 during which it snowed. That is why I consider it to have been a bit

6 warmer then.

7 Q. Do you know if there was any shelling in the area before the set

8 of shells that you investigated fell?

9 A. I am sure that in this area there was no shelling for 26 days. So

10 after a pause of 20 -- of 20 days, these two shells fell.

11 Q. From your investigation, did you receive information as to what

12 the children who died and were injured were doing at the time of the

13 shelling?

14 A. At that time, all the children were possibly playing in the snow

15 and this can be seen because of the sleigh. They were probably playing

16 in the snow which had fallen in that area.

17 Q. Now the photograph at page number 1 shows the explosion inside

18 number 3 Cetiniska Street.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is this the

21 number 1 that we have on the screen or is it a different photograph?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, Mr. Usher, move the photo so we can see

23 what number. It is number one, yes.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

Page 7371

1 Q. From your typewritten note here, this photograph shows explosion

2 inside number 3 Cetiniska Street. That is correct, is it?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.


5 Q. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Could you have a look at the photograph; do you see an arrow in

8 the photograph?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. What is that arrow pointing to?

11 A. The arrow is pointing to the site of the explosion.

12 Q. And could you have a look at photograph number 2, please. That,

13 from your note, is the site of the explosion of the previous -- the site

14 of the explosion shown in the proceeding photograph, but from another

15 angle; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 MR. STAMP: Mr. Stamp, if you find a suitable moment either now

18 or within one or two minutes to stop.

19 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

20 Q. And the arrow also points to the impact site; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 MR. STAMP: If it pleases the Court, perhaps I could take it now.

23 It might give me an opportunity to work on the use of the microphone in

24 these circumstances, which is really distracting me at this point in time.

25 Perhaps this might be a convenient time for the adjournment.

Page 7372

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

2 Mr. Q, it is 7.00, so we stop for today. This court resumes

3 tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00, but I think you will not be called right

4 at a quarter past 2.00. We have to deal with one or two other issues

5 first and that may take 15 to 30 minutes. I know sometimes you have to

6 wait here to see whether you will be called or not. We apologise for

7 that. But I can't change it at this very moment. So we will adjourn

8 until tomorrow in the afternoon, same courtroom, at a quarter past 2.00.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 7.00, p.m., to be reconvened on

11 Wednesday, the 17th, day of April, 2002,

12 at 2.15 p.m.