Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7373

 1                          Wednesday, 17 April 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Stanislav Galic.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 9            Mr. Ierace.

10            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, I thought I should make myself

11    available in case there are any outstanding issues in relation to

12    tomorrow's timetable of Mr. Donia giving evidence.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ierace, thank you for coming.  I discussed

14    it with my colleagues and the Chamber would prefer first to deal with

15    Mr. Mehonic, who is waiting, then see whether there are any remaining

16    issues in relation to Mr. Donia's report, and then continue with

17    Witness Q.  Yes.

18            Mr. Usher, could you please guide Mr. Mehonic into the courtroom.

19            MR. IERACE:  Might I be excused, Mr. President, until that time?

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although I expect that Mr. Mehonic will take

21    only not many minutes.

22            MR. IERACE:  I will wait, Mr. President.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24                          [The witness entered court]

25                          WITNESS: RASIM MEHONIC [Resumed]

Page 7374

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mehonic, can you hear me in a language you

 2    understand?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I can hear you well.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mehonic, the Prosecution has asked leave to

 5    recall you.

 6            Mr. Stamp.

 7            MR. STAMP:  If it please you, Mr. President, it was only a matter

 8    to retrieve from him his original certificate.

 9                          Further re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

10       Q.   Mr. Mehonic, were you able to locate your original medical

11    certificate or that copy that you got from the Kosevo Hospital?

12       A.   Yes, I was.

13       Q.   And would you be prepared to release it to us if you obtained a

14    certified copy from us?

15       A.   I can't get the original then, if you take the original.  Because

16    that's a permanent document for me, one that will last for a lifetime

17            MR. STAMP:  I think, Mr. President, perhaps we had best ask for

18    another copy of that.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Mehonic, I think there are two ways of

20    doing it:  If you would give us the original, you would receive from the

21    Tribunal a copy that is certified.  That means that it is indicated on the

22    copy that this is the same as the original; otherwise, if you would give

23    us the -- if you would give us your original, just for inspection to start

24    with, and that we could then perhaps prepare a copy.  Let me just confer.

25                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 7375

 1            MR. STAMP:  A third option, if I may actually propose it, is to

 2    have him compare his original with the one tendered in evidence yesterday.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and perhaps have the original inspected by the

 4    Defence as well and by the Chamber as well.  Yes.

 5            Mr. Mehonic, would you agree to give your original for inspection

 6    to all the parties --

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  -- we will return it to you and you could compare

 9    your original with the copy already made, and perhaps questions are put to

10    you in this respect.  So if you would give your original to the usher, and

11    I promise you, you will get it back.  If you would please first give it to

12    the Defence.

13            Will you then please give it to Mr. Stamp.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We

15    shall comment on this perhaps later when we conduct the cross-examination.

16    Thank you.

17                          [Trial Chamber confers]

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, may I give the original to you so

19    that you can take care of a copy to be prepared for the witness and then

20    return the original -- no, the copy, to be prepared for us.  Yes.

21            Mr. Stamp.

22            MR. STAMP:  I have nothing further to ask.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you have any questions in

24    particular to the document just shown, you may please proceed.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  To

Page 7376

 1    tell you the truth, we don't have any particular questions apart for one.

 2    Could we ask the witness whether he could explain to this Trial Chamber

 3    why this document was manipulated, that is what we have called it?  And

 4    this seems to be the case because in the original there is something

 5    marked in blue at the bottom of the document, and grey or black was used

 6    for what has been inscribed on the upper part of the document.  I am not

 7    talking about the form, Mr. President.  I am talking about the text that

 8    was superimposed, that was added to the form.

 9                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, could you tell us why this document is

11    presented in two colours, has two colours?

12       A.   I couldn't answer that question.  The person who made the

13    document could answer that question.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  Which document is

16    going to be tendered, all of them or the -- Mr. Stamp.

17            MR. STAMP:  I would propose that the document originally tendered

18    by the Prosecution received in evidence, we would do the minor amendment

19    to the translation in due course.  The Court has asked to see the original

20    and the Court has had an opportunity to compare them.  I am not aware that

21    there is any substantial difference between the original and the one that

22    the Prosecution tendered.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then you intend to tender a different

24    translation.  That means P1517C.1 will be replaced by another

25    translation.

Page 7377

 1            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, and that translation would only delete the

 2    date of discharge or the date inserted in the column for the date of

 3    discharge.  That would be the only change.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is clear to me.

 5            Mr. Mehonic, may I ask the parties whether it is necessary to make

 6    any additional copy or that P1517, which seems to be a copy of the

 7    document we just saw.  I don't think that there is any need to make an

 8    additional copy, but if one of the parties would not agree, I would like

 9    to hear it.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, but I would like it to be

11    clear and that the Prosecution also admits that the original, which was

12    filed, apparently has two different types of writing because we can see

13    this in the original but not in the copy.  So if the Prosecution admits

14    that it seems to me there were two types of printing on this document,

15    that is fine.  But if that is not the case, then we need a colour copy, I

16    think, in order to be able to locate this problem subsequently.

17            MR. STAMP:  I am afraid I am not in a position to make that

18    concession, Mr. President.  Perhaps I could have a look at the original

19    again to see if I could identify what my friend is referring to.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, what Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to is that

21    part of the entries are in black, while the box on "diagnoza"

22    and "epicrisis" are in blue.

23            MR. STAMP:  Well, the Prosecution is prepared to concede that a

24    number which is apparently written by hand, written with a blue pen, is in

25    blue, whereas on the photocopy, it is in black.  The signature on the

Page 7378

 1    doctor appears to be in blue, where, on the photocopy, it is in black.

 2    And There are other printed writing on the original document which is in

 3    blue print whereas they are identically copied on the photocopy, except on

 4    the photocopy, they are in black.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  But whatever the importance of that might be,

 6    whatever -- perhaps it is good to have a colour copy, since the

 7    Defence raised the issue, and then for the future, we always be sure on

 8    what is in blue and what is in black.  So if the Chamber would prefer to

 9    have a coloured copy tendered, then so it should be made then this

10    afternoon.  I think it would be possible.

11            MR. STAMP:  Very well.  So we will have a colour copy prepared.

12    May I just ensure that that is possible?

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

15            JUDGE ORIE:  The Registry could do it, if necessary.

16            MR. STAMP:  Perhaps we could ask the Registry to do it.  We

17    could, but we could not guarantee it to be returned today.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  If you could please return it to the Registrar.

19            Mr. Mehonic, the Registry will, in approximately one hour, one

20    hour and a half, prepare a colour copy of the document and then the

21    original will be returned to you again.  If that is all right with you?

22    Yes?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is appropriate.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stamp, may I then draw your attention that

25    the ERN number seems to be added on the copy that it's entered this time,

Page 7379

 1    that whenever the colour copy is ready, that we give it to you so that you

 2    can fill in whatever ERN number should be on the copy.

 3            MR. STAMP:  Very well, Mr. President.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mehonic, you have been in the courtroom only for

 5    a very short period this afternoon and you know that we would like to see

 6    the original of your discharge letter.  But let me return to your

 7    testimony.

 8            You have answered all the questions of the parties.  You have also

 9    answered our questions.  We also have noticed that it was painful for you

10    to be taken back to the moments which I assume would be among the most

11    painful in your life.  We are aware of that.  We noticed it.  You will

12    understand that we are grateful that you have taken the effort to come to

13    The Hague to answer the questions of the parties and the question of the

14    Judges, because I hope that you are aware that it is important for this

15    Chamber to hear the answers to these questions from those who have been

16    present at that time and at these places.  So we thank you very much for

17    that, and we hope you have a safe journey home again.  I think the --

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  -- Witness and Victims Unit will help you recover the

20    original.  That will be done during the next break that will be in

21    approximately in one hour.  Thank you very much for coming again.

22            Mr. Usher, will you please escort Mr. Mehonic out of the

23    courtroom.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                          [The witness withdrew]

Page 7380

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, we will decide on 1517C once we

 2    have received the -- and when the Prosecution has tendered the coloured

 3    copy of it.  Is there anything else?  No, there is nothing else.  It was

 4    the only document used.

 5            That means that we could now briefly pay attention to whether

 6    there are any remaining issues in respect of the documents attached to the

 7    report of Mr. Donia or whatever pages.  Yes, one moment, please.

 8                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  And, meanwhile, the technicians might work on the

10    preparation of the protective measures for Witness Q.

11            Whom of the parties may I invite to speak first on the issue of

12    the documents in relation to Mr. Donia's report?

13            MR. IERACE:  I am happy to update the Trial Chamber,

14    Mr. President.  As I understand it, in various requests made by the

15    Defence for disclosure of further material, firstly in respect of the

16    copies of Oslobodjenje and other publications, there is one issue of that

17    newspaper and an issue of another publication still to come.  We have also

18    located a copy of -- tape-recording, rather, of the speech by Radovan

19    Karadzic which the Defence has requested.  We are making a copy of that.

20    We will disclose both a tape-recording and a transcription into B/C/S and

21    a translation into English.  I anticipate that the Defence will receive

22    that material this afternoon.  As far as I am aware, Mr. President, they

23    are the outstanding issues in relation to the documents

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's just check with the Defence whether they agree

25    that these were the outstanding issues.

Page 7381












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Page 7382

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Partially, Mr. President.

 2    Partially.  Partially, because although we have received certain documents

 3    mentioned by the Prosecution, it appears that as far as the last ones are

 4    concerned, we received them at a very late date, that is to say either

 5    this morning -- or I can see here a date.  It says the 17th of April, so

 6    that was today.  And we think that it is not possible to submit such a

 7    quantity of documents in one language a few days or a few hours before

 8    such an important hearing as to the case with this witness.  As far as the

 9    cassette is concerned, first of all, it was said that such a cassette does

10    not exist.  It is now a pleasure to see that it does exist and it shall

11    soon be produced, but if I have understood everything correctly.  But we

12    are lacking time.  We don't have enough time to prepare our Defence.

13    That's all.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ierace.

15            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, two matters:  Firstly, I did not say

16    yesterday or on any other occasion that the tape did not exist.  I said I

17    would check to see whether we had a copy and made it clear that the

18    footnote did not refer to a tape but, rather, a transcription.

19            Secondly, my friend complains that the material is being provided

20    to him late.  The newspaper items were requested by the Defence by letter

21    dated the 13th of April and they were provided, in the main part,

22    yesterday and the day before.  The Defence has had the report since the

23    25th of February so they have sought this material very late.

24            Secondly, or further in relation to that point, we have made

25    clear that this material is open source.  It was available to them to

Page 7383

 1    obtain in any event, but rather than make an issue of it, we have simply

 2    provided it to them.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

 4            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I suggest that we proceed as far as we can

 5    come, and if there is any specific moment where you say we can't proceed

 6    for specifically this or that reason or that there is some information in

 7    the material which has been provided to you recently - I am not expressing

 8    any view of the Chamber on whether this was an obligatory providing of

 9    this material or whether it was courtesy - but if we come at a point where

10    you say for this and this reasons, we are handicapped [Real-time

11    transcript read in error "you are handicapped"] specifically, please let

12    the Chamber know so that we can see what to do under these circumstances.

13    But we have taken notice that you feel in a general way handicapped by

14    receiving late these copies.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

16    this suggestion.  The Defence shall take note of it, if necessary.  But as

17    far as the material is concerned the material that has been presented as

18    open source material, this is mostly -- these are mostly newspapers which

19    were published in Sarajevo and which weren't distributed

20    internationally, and it is obviously very difficult for the Defence to

21    find newspaper articles which come from certain issues since all of

22    this took place in Sarajevo and these newspapers weren't distributed

23    elsewhere.  So I don't think it is quite correct to say that this material

24    was publicly available.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I'd say in general terms it was, but you said it was

Page 7384

 1    not easily accessible to us.

 2            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  Mr. President, for the transcript, I think in

 3    page 10, line one, it says: "We are handicapped," and I think that you

 4    said, "You are handicapped."

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you say that you are handicapped.  Whether the

 6    Chamber is handicapped is for ourselves to decide and to solve.

 7            Mr. Stamp is the Prosecution then ready to resume the examination

 8    of Witness Q?  And may I ask the technical booth that every measure, that

 9    means facial distortion, voice distortion, is effective at this very

10    moment.

11            So it is confirmed by the technical booth that everything is

12    effective.  It is now up to us to use our microphones in such a way that

13    it remains effective and also up to us to not mention any name or any

14    other identifying details.

15            Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Witness Q.

16            MR. IERACE:  Might I be excused, Mr. President?

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18                         [The witness entered court]

19                          WITNESS: WITNESS Q [Resumed]

20                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Q, as I still call you, can you hear me in a

22    language you understand?

23            Thank you.  Please be seated.  It is perhaps unnecessary but I

24    nevertheless remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration

25    you gave yesterday.

Page 7385

 1            Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

 2            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                          Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

 4       Q.   Witness Q, yesterday we were looking at the photographs which you

 5    said you took, and we had looked at photograph 1 and photograph 2, which

 6    were taken -- these photographs were taken of the impact sites in front of

 7    number 3 Cetinska Street.

 8            Could he be given back that Exhibit P2172?

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

10            Do you have the page already in mind, Mr. Stamp?

11            MR. STAMP:  Page 1 and page 2.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please put page 1 on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.

13            MR. STAMP:

14       Q.   You had indicated that the arrows in photograph on page 1 and

15    photograph on page 2 --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but we still

18    sometimes have this problem with the translation.  P21312 312 was what I

19    heard in the French translation and here it says P222 -- I mean, we will

20    need this to be reflected correctly.

21            MR. STAMP:  The document, for the record, is P2172, which has been

22    handed to the witness.  And that has been confirmed by the Registrar:

23    P2172.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

25            MR. STAMP:

Page 7386

 1       Q.   Now, the impact site in photograph 1 and photograph 2 are on a

 2    road?

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can't hear the witness at all.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters have some difficulties in hearing

 5    you.  It would be the centre microphone.  Perhaps if you come a bit closer

 6    to the microphone in the middle.

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Perhaps switching on the microphone wouldn't be

 8    a bad idea.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I hear that switching on the microphone

10    would be a good idea as well.  Yes, it doesn't help if you come closer if

11    it's switched off.  Would you please speak a few words to see whether the

12    interpreters can hear you correctly now?

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Not a word.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  It is still a problem.  Perhaps we switched it off by

15    now.

16            THE INTERPRETER:  It is fine now.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  It is okay, please proceed.

18            MR. STAMP:

19       Q.   Those arrows in photograph 1 and photograph 2 point to an impact

20    site in the middle of the road, is that correct?

21       A.   It is correct that they represent the site of the explosion.  As

22    to whether it is exactly in the middle of the road, I am not certain.  But

23    it is certainly on that road.

24       Q.   And is there a building at 3 Cetinska Street?

25       A.   The way this photo is taken, the Cetinska building number 3 is

Page 7387

 1    supposedly behind the back of the photographer, that is to say I, myself,

 2    when I was taking this picture.

 3       Q.   Are you referring to photograph 1 when you say that?

 4       A.   The picture I see on the screen, I believe that is picture number

 5    1.

 6       Q.   Could you please look on the ELMO and confirm that you are

 7    speaking of picture number 1.

 8       A.   Yes, that's picture number 1.  Behind my back more or less would

 9    be the residential building number 3.

10       Q.   Thank you, that is what I wanted to enquire into.

11            This residential building was about how far from the impact site

12    that you photographed?

13       A.   Perhaps from the site of the explosion to the building itself --

14    well, it was probably an approximate distance of 20 metres.  I can't tell,

15    but about 20 metres.

16       Q.   Could you have a look at photograph on page number 3 of the

17    booklet.  Could you just read what you wrote on that photograph.

18       A.   It says that photo number 3 represents the traces of the explosion

19    of the shell on the asphalt in Cetinska Street next to the building number

20    3.

21       Q.   And on that photograph there is a yellow line or a yellow

22    instrument across the middle of the photograph.  Could you say what that

23    is?

24       A.   On the photo can be a part of the tape that we use to place on the

25    traces of the explosion so that we were able to take measurements

Page 7388

 1    afterwards, basically, in order to make it visible on the photograph what

 2    the size of the area was because we all knew the dimensions of that tape.

 3    I mean, we didn't actually use it to measure anything; we just put it on

 4    the photo in order to make it clear what the dimensions were.  Today we've

 5    got better equipment and, at the time, we didn't have anything else so we

 6    made do with what we had.

 7       Q.   And could you have a look at photo number 4.   Could you read what

 8    you wrote under that photograph.

 9       A.   Photo 4: "Traces of blood in the vicinity of the spot where the

10    shell exploded."

11       Q.   Can you recall which impact site this was?  Was it the one at

12    Cetinska street or Klara Zetkin Street?

13       A.   I am not certain, but if I look at the sequence of these pictures,

14    it is probably by the first explosion site.

15       Q.   Could you have a look at photo number 5, please.   Could you read

16    what you have written below that photograph.

17       A.   Photo 5:  "The place in Klara Zetkin Street next to the house

18    number 4 where the shell landed."

19       Q.   Is this house number 4 another residential apartment block?

20       A.   I don't understand what you mean by "residential area."

21       Q.   I didn't say area, I said block.  May I repeat it?  Well, let us

22    have a look at the photograph.  You have an arrow on the photograph.  What

23    does that arrow point to?

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25       A.   The arrow indicates the place of the explosion.

Page 7389












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Page 7390

 1       Q.   And in the background of that photograph, do you see some stairs

 2    and then entrance to a building?

 3       A.   Yes, I do.  That's the building behind the site of the explosion.

 4       Q.   And is that -- what type of building is that?

 5       A.   A multi-storey building.  There was a whole row of multi-storey

 6    buildings.  That means that they were residential buildings, several

 7    floors and several entrances.  It is possible that two entrances may be

 8    seen on this picture, but it is a bit dark here on the screen so I can't

 9    tell.

10       Q.   If you wish to, you may have a look at the copy on the ELMO.  If

11    it could remain there, though.  Could you have a look at photo number 6,

12    please.   Is that a close-up photograph of the impact site in front of

13    Klara Zetkin Street?

14       A.   Yes, that is the tracer that was seen on picture number 5 which

15    was marked by an arrow on picture number 5.  So it is the same photo but

16    from a lesser distance.

17       Q.   And the impact site was, from these photographs -- would you agree

18    with me that the site was on the sidewalk in front of the building, on the

19    edge of the sidewalk in front of the building?

20       A.   Judging by the damage, we can see that it was on the edge of the

21    pavement and part of the road, so that's just the edge of the pavement.

22       Q.   And could you have a look at photo number 6.  Photo number 7, I

23    beg your pardon.  Could you read what you have written below that

24    photograph.

25       A.   Photo 7: "Traces of blood and tissue and children's sleigh."

Page 7391

 1       Q.   Could you now have a look at photo number 8 and tell us what you

 2    have written below that photograph.

 3       A.   Photo number 8: "Child's cap in the snow and traces of blood in

 4    the background."

 5            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. Usher, you may remove that document.

 6       Q.   In respect to this incident and the work that you did there, did

 7    you file a report?

 8       A.   Yes, I did.

 9       Q.   And did you sign it?

10       A.   Yes, I did.

11       Q.   And would you be able to identify that report from or a copy of

12    that report?

13       A.   Yes, I could.

14            MR. STAMP:  With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, may he

15    be shown document P2171B?

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately,

20    there is interference and we can't hear the speaker again.  I think

21    somebody's mobile phone is interfering with it.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  I can hear everyone although very -- at a low level.

23    Is it the witness you can't hear or is it someone else?

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I can hear everyone but the booth

25    can't hear me.

Page 7392

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please test.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Okay, now it is fine.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Please then proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The reason why I decided to

 5    stand up was that the interpreters did not mention the number of the

 6    document.  So for the transcript, I think it would be a good idea to

 7    repeat it.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Indeed I will.  P2171B.

 9       Q.   Could you have a look at that document, please.  Do you see on

10    that document a copy of your signature or your signature photocopied?

11       A.   Yes, I did.

12       Q.   Is that the report you filed on the 22nd -- I beg your pardon.  Is

13    that the report you filed in respect to the incident of the 22nd of

14    January, 1994?

15       A.   Yes, it is.

16            MR. STAMP:  Could the witness, with your leave, be shown a

17    document which is recalled, it is already in evidence, document P2171?

18    P2171.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  That is without the B?

20            MR. STAMP:  Without the B.

21       Q.   Is that a ballistic report signed by Borislav Stankov?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And if you look in the second paragraph of that document, do you

24    see  [redacted]

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must

Page 7393

 1    intervene once again because I am afraid that these questions might damage

 2    the protection of the witness, and also for the transcript, the

 3    term "forensic expert," should perhaps be checked out in French.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 5            MR. STAMP:  I think the expression I used -- well, the expression

 6    in the English transcript is "forensic officer."  I am quite sure that the

 7    French expression in respect to "forensic expert," can be checked and will

 8    be corrected with them or their tapes.

 9       Q.   But may I just say to the witness, Witness, I am not asking you to

10    say or to read what you see or to say your name.  Do you see [redacted]

11    [redacted]; yes or no?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And this report is a ballistic report for the shelling incident

14    that you have just testified about, that is incident on the 22nd of

15    January, 1994?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. STAMP:  With your leave, Mr. President, I propose to show to

18    the witness document 2171A.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so, Mr. Stamp.

20            MR. STAMP:  Could you remain to help him, Mr. Usher, if need be.

21    Could you remain to help him.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just for the purpose of the

23    transcript, the number in 19-3 is not the number is marked on the

24    document.  One digit is missing, a "1," I believe.

25            MR. STAMP:  Yes, for the record, the number which has been handed

Page 7394

 1    to the witness -- the number of the document which has been handed to the

 2    witness is 2171A, number 2171A.

 3       Q.   Could you compare those two documents, that is document 2171A and

 4    document 2171?

 5       A.   As I can see, they appear to be the same.

 6       Q.   Could you --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We should clarify things in

 9    the transcript for the future because there is a great deal of confusion.

10    It is 217 and we need to make everything clear because there is a

11    confusion here.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  And could the speaker please speak into the

13    microphone.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:  And I think that somebody referred to a "C"

15    document, one of the booths, but I don't know what it refers to.

16            If the Prosecution could just refer to both of these documents

17    clearly so that there is no confusion in the future.

18            MR. STAMP:  Very well, Mr. President.  I will try.

19       Q.   Now, could you please --

20            MR. STAMP:  And please help him, Mr. Usher.

21       Q.   Have a look at document P2171.  Document P2171.  On the second

22    page of that document, do you see that some of the lines in the first

23    paragraph are blurred and illegible or almost illegible?   Please answer,

24    "yes" or "no."

25       A.   They are illegible; it is not very clear.

Page 7395

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Could you now look at document P2171A. [Real-time

 2    transcript read in error "P217"].

 3            Would you agree with me that the -- that document which --

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask for the transcript again, the last number,

 5    Mr. Stamp mentioned was P2171A.  It appeared a different number in the

 6    transcript.  Are there any technical problems in reproducing these

 7    numbers in the transcript because then I would like to know.  Because

 8    when I repeat the number, it does not appear in the transcript either.

 9    So I mentioned P2171A.  I'll try to repeat it:  P2171A.  May I ask

10    specifically to those who are reviewing the transcript overnight and may I

11    invite the parties to check whether, after having listened to the audio

12    tape, whether the numbers appear in a good order in the transcript and let

13    me do it this way.

14            The first document Mr. Stamp asked the witness to have a look at

15    was a previously already admitted document of which the translation is

16    partly in black because of the bad legibility of that document.

17            The second document Mr. Stamp mentioned is a document of which the

18    witness said that it appeared to be the same document, and I think the

19    parties would agree that this is a party [sic] which appears to be the

20    same, but legible in its entirety.  If the parties could agree on that,

21    then we could continue.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to

23    verify something.  I think we could agree on this point, as I think that

24    we could agree that this clear document could have been submitted to us at

25    a much earlier date, and to the Trial Chamber too.

Page 7396

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  If you will just leave me one moment.

 2            Yes, if it is any different, I will hear from you,

 3    Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  I also said that it "appeared" to be.  I didn't say

 4    that it is the same document, but it appears to be the same document.

 5            I wonder whether, if numbers are mentioned, whether the court

 6    reporters could do it by words, rather than by numbers.

 7            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9            Could you, Mr. Usher, take away document P2171 and leave the

10    others.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I specifically thank the court reporters for helping

12    us out of the problems.

13            MR. STAMP:

14       Q.   Witness, could you now return to document P2171B, which is the

15    report you signed.  In that document you refer to the place and time of

16    the act that you investigated, and could you read what the reference is.

17       A.   "Klara Zetkin Street and Cetinska number 3, 23rd of January, 1994,

18    at about 1315 hours."

19       Q.   At section number four of your document --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, if I may interrupt you.  I heard "23rd of

21    January" and that is also what appears in the transcript.  Could you

22    please clarify this matter.

23            MR. STAMP:

24       Q.   Could you repeat what you are recorded for the place and time of

25    the incident?

Page 7397

 1       A.   "Klara Zetkin Street number 4, Cetinska number 3, the 22nd of

 2    January, 1994, at about 1315 hours."

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Stamp, microphone, please.

 4            MR. STAMP:  I apologise.

 5       Q.   And at item number 4, the description of the criminal act, could

 6    you please read what you have recorded there?

 7       A.   "The 22nd of January, 1994, at about 1315 hours, [from the west

 8    Nedzarici] two mortar shells fell, the calibre of which was 120

 9    millimetres.  They fell at Klara Zetkin street number 4 and the other fell

10    at Cetinska Street number 3.  On that occasion, several people were killed

11    and -- "

12       Q.   Could you pause there, please.  We will get to the casualties

13    shortly.

14            You just had a look at the document, the forensic -- the ballistic

15    report signed by Borislav Stankov.  In that report, it indicates that the

16    impact sites on Klara Zetkin Street and Cetinska Street, from their

17    examination, were caused by 82 millimetre mortars.  Is that correct from

18    what you see on the report of Borislav Stankov?

19       A.   Borislav Stankov is a forensic expert.  I was dealing with another

20    issue.  He is an expert, too, and on the basis of traces, he decides, he

21    comes to a conclusion as to what projectile was used.  So that his

22    findings shall be recorded and shall be taken to be valid before mine is,

23    which was written immediately after the event itself.  Without having made

24    any investigations, without having questioned anyone, but on the basis of

25    what I myself saw.

Page 7398

 1       Q.   Borislav Stankov is a ballistic expert; is that correct?

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that this question is

 4    a leading question.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... about whether

 6    Mr. --

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In general, Mr. President, we

 8    sometimes contest the authenticity of the -- the quality of the experts

 9    for some persons, in the case of some persons who signed certain

10    documents.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  That is a different matter compared to whether it is

12    in dispute that he is known as perhaps an expert in a certain field.  But

13    if you insist, then I will ask Mr. Stamp to --

14            MR. STAMP:  I will rephrase.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

16            MR. STAMP:

17       Q.   On the document signed by Borislav Stankov, could you read the

18    first paragraph or the heading of the document?  That is P2171A.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Stamp, microphone, please.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Record of forensic investigation

21    carried out at the site where shells fell in Cetinska Street and Klara

22    Zetkin Street and also in the park between Klara Zetkin Street and the

23    Rade Koncera Square, written by Borislav Stankov, a ballistics expert with

24    the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo."

25       Q.   Thank you.  Were you a ballistic expert at the time?

Page 7399

 1       A.   No, I wasn't.

 2       Q.   You said you wrote -- or may I just ask him a leading question.

 3    On what basis did you write two-120 millimetre mortar shell?

 4       A.   I wrote this under the description of the act itself, that's under

 5    paragraph four, number four.  And here on the second page under number six

 6    paragraph -- the fifth paragraph.

 7       Q.   Yes.  Why did you write 120 millimetre mortar shell?

 8       A.   When I went to the site where these two shells exploded, I

 9    investigated the site, I determined what had happened.  I took some

10    photographs.  First of all, there is a little inspection and then the

11    photographs were taken.  And at that site I found here, it says, "the tail

12    of the shell."  The situation was such that I had to investigate the

13    entire site myself.  So in usual case the custom was for several of us to

14    go and investigate such sites, but in this case, I was on my own.  And I

15    found that shell tail, the tail of a 120 millimetre shell, and it is on

16    the basis of that that I wrote this report after I had carried out the

17    on-site investigation.  And the measurements and other things, they were

18    carried out by the ballistic experts.

19       Q.   Thank you.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the French transcript, it

21    says "localization" instead of "location."  I think there was a mistake

22    there.  Thank you.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What the Judges sometimes do,

24    Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is to write down the page number and line number and

25    then the word as you see it in the transcript and the word you had spoken,

Page 7400

 1    because this might not create whatever confusion, and we would be grateful

 2    if you would assist those who are preparing the transcript and, at the

 3    same time, not interrupt unnecessarily the examination-in-chief.

 4            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 5            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6       Q.   You had reached to reading about the casualties on the item four

 7    of your report.  Could you read for us that part of your report.

 8       A.   "On that occasion, several people were wounded and Subasic Admir

 9    died, [born in 1986]; Nermin Rizvanovic, [date of birth 1981]; Jasmina

10    Brkovic [date of birth, 1989]; Indira Brkovic," in brackets, I can't see

11    the exact year; "Mirza Dedovic [1986]; Daniel Jurinic, [1983]."

12       Q.   And were these the fatalities from the incident that you

13    discovered as a result of your investigation?

14       A.   These are the names of the people who died and the names that I

15    obtained after I had carried out the on-site investigation itself.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            You said you lived in Alipasino Polje at the time and the

18    community of Alipasino Polje was also a part of your police district.  Can

19    you tell us please, generally speaking, about the shelling that occurred

20    in your district.

21       A.   Do you mean for the entire period of time or just for this case?

22       Q.    Okay, I'm a little bit vague there.  You said the area was not

23    shelled for about 26 days before this incident.  Do you know why the area

24    was not shelled?

25       A.   I couldn't answer that question.  I don't know why it wasn't

Page 7401

 1    shelled.  I was very glad that there was no shelling.  I was glad that

 2    that was not repeated.

 3       Q.   Now, prior to the beginning of this 26 days before the incident,

 4    was the area -- to what degree was the area shelled?

 5       A.   I can't remember exactly how much shelling there was because -- I

 6    can't exactly remember how much shelling there was.  But there was also

 7    four because there was also very nearby.  Vojnicko Polje, Alipasino Polje,

 8    which was divided into areas where exactly the shells fell, and they fell

 9    in a discriminate manner in these areas.  I couldn't say exactly.  I can't

10    say whether they fell in those areas and I couldn't say how many shells

11    fell.  But in the entire area of Alipasino Polje, I am sure that 26 days

12    prior to this incident there was no shelling.  So there was a period of

13    peace right up until this shelling.  And as to what happened after that

14    shelling, I can't remember because shells continued to fall after this

15    incident.

16       Q.   Do you know if there was any local arrangements between the two

17    armies at around that time?

18       A.   No.  I was just doing my job and I was happy to say that there was

19    a peaceful period.  Whether some agreement had been reached about the

20    peace, I don't know.  I can't remember whether there was electricity at

21    the time to enable people to follow the news and the media.  Whether there

22    was some sort of agreement, I really couldn't answer that question

23    precisely.

24       Q.   Now, when you -- as a resident of Alipasino Polje, you told us

25    that the shelling was sometime indiscriminate in the area.  Could you from

Page 7402

 1    your experience determine sometimes where the shells were fired from?

 2       A.   Sarajevo was a town that was surrounded.  Our greatest fear in

 3    that area was -- our greatest fears concerned the Nedzarici area, the

 4    Nedzarici settlement, the Lukavica settlement.  That is an area which is

 5    behind the Mojmilo hill, the Mojmilo Brdo, and part of the airport

 6    settlement which is right next to the Nedzarici area.  As I wasn't always

 7    working in Alipasino Polje but also in the town during the war period,

 8    Dobrinja was also an area in which I worked and which I carried out

 9    certain on-site investigations, and it was very difficult to move from the

10    Alipasino Polje area to Dobrinja because that part was an open area and it

11    was easily visible from the Nedzarici area.  On certain occasions I had to

12    wait for night to fall.  Sometimes I would even sleep over in Dobrinja.

13    So Nedzarici was directly visible from my sight and Lukavica area was not

14    visible, but it was possible to shell from that area.

15       Q.   May I just take you back to what I was asking you about.  From

16    your experience of living in Alipasino Polje, could you sometimes

17    determine from where shells were fired?

18       A.   I personally was able to determine that.

19       Q.   How could one do that?  How were you able to do that?

20       A.   I was unable to determine the direction from which the shell came,

21    but it was very difficult to determine the actual place from which the

22    shell was fired.

23       Q.   How would you do that?

24       A.   It was possible to do so on the basis of the traces that would be

25    left after the explosion of the shell.

Page 7403

 1       Q.   You, in your report, if you have a look at it, please, and that is

 2    P2171B, on item 4 you indicated that the shells came from Nedzarici.  Can

 3    you see that?

 4       A.   Yes, I can.

 5       Q.   On what basis did you write that?  Why did you write that?  Did

 6    you receive any information to that effect?

 7       A.   To determine the direction from which a shell came, I was able to

 8    determine that myself on the basis of the traces that I would discover at

 9    the site.  On that basis, it was possible to determine that the shell had

10    come from the west, and Nedzarici is in that direction.  Nedzarici is to

11    the west and that is why I wrote down Nedzarici in brackets.

12       Q.   You said that you were not at home in Alipasino Polje at the time

13    of this incident, but you were at your office and you were called there.

14    Had you ever been at home when the -- when anywhere near you was shelled

15    from Nedzarici?  I beg your pardon, had you ever been at home in Alipasino

16    Polje where any position near where you were was shelled from Nedzarici?

17       A.   I experienced quite a bit of shelling but I can't remember exactly

18    whether some of the shelling came from the Nedzarici area.

19       Q.   You said you can't recall exactly whether some of the shelling

20    came from the Nedzarici area.  Can you recall anything about any other

21    shelling?

22       A.   Do you mean some cases for which I carried out the on-site

23    investigations or cases in which I was either in my flat or perhaps in the

24    streets, in squares, and there was shelling in the surrounding areas?

25       Q.   Yes, I am asking about your experience living in Alipasino Polje.

Page 7404

 1       A.   I lived in Alipasino Polje and I experienced quite a lot of

 2    shelling, but while I was in my flat because that was the safest place to

 3    be if I was not working.  And in my opinion, it would be pointless to go

 4    to the site of the explosion itself since, from my personal experience,

 5    and this was possible to see on the basis of the on-site investigations,

 6    it was very dangerous to go to see where the shell had come from, from

 7    which direction, because it was possible for other shells to be fired.

 8       Q.   From your flat or the area where you lived in Alipasino Polje, did

 9    you hear shells being fired?

10       A.   Yes, it was possible to hear them and I did hear them.

11       Q.   Could you tell us if you can, some of the places where you have

12    heard shells being fired from?

13       A.   Nedzarici was the closest place from which you could hear shells

14    being fired.

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            Now, apart from the investigation of the 22nd of January, 1994,

17    you conducted, as you indicated, many other investigations.  I would like

18    to take you to one in particular.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, before doing so, we are close to a quarter

20    to 4.00 and it seems that you enter a new area.  Would this be a suitable

21    moment to have the break or...

22            MR. STAMP:  Indeed it would.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  And can you give us an indication how much time you'd

24    still need for the examination-in-chief?

25            MR. STAMP:  Approximately ten minutes.

Page 7405












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 7406

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

 2            Mr. Q and all the others in this courtroom, we will adjourn until

 3    a quarter past 4.00.

 4                          --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

 5                          --- Upon resuming at 4.17 p.m.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

 7            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 8       Q.   Before the interval I indicated I wanted to take you to another

 9    investigation, but before I do that, may I ask you just a couple further

10    questions about your experiences living in Alipasino Polje.

11            You said that Nedzarici was the closest place from which you could

12    hear shells being fired.  Could you say under the control of which party

13    in the conflict was Nedzarici?

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, apparently

15    there is no translation.  There is some technical problem.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... of Mr. Stamp or

17    not of the witness?

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just, slowly --

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I do hear.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  The problem seems to be solved.

22            Mr. Stamp, I think that is the moment to resume.

23            MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

24       Q.   Firstly, could you tell us which party to the conflict, was it the

25    Bosnian Serb army or the army of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

Page 7407

 1    that controlled the community of Nedzarici?

 2       A.   Nedzarici was controlled by the army of the Republika Srpska.

 3       Q.   You said you could hear shells being fired from Nedzarici from

 4    the vicinity of your home in Alipasino Polje.  Could you describe what

 5    you mean.

 6       A.   Very often while I was living in Alipasino Polje and in the course

 7    of shelling, prior to the explosions in Alipasino Polje, we could hear

 8    muffled sound and we usually concluded that it was a sound of those shells

 9    being fired, the shells that later on landed onto our area.  So there is a

10    big difference between that sound and the actual explosion.

11       Q.   Taking you now to the 10th -- to the 9th, I beg your pardon, of

12    November, 1993.  Did you investigate shellings in Alipasino Polje which

13    occurred on that day?

14       A.   I carried out the on-site investigation of the 9th of November,

15    1993, but I don't know exactly what particular case you are referring to.

16       Q.   Well, could you tell us then how many cases of shelling were

17    there on the 9th of November 1993 in Alipasino Polje that you was

18    involved in the investigation?

19       A.    I carried out the on-site investigation for two shells and I can

20    remember those two cases.  As to whether there were any more shellings, I

21    don't know.  But I do remember that I carried out two on-site

22    investigations for two cases of shelling.

23       Q.   Where did these two cases occur?  Can you remember the street

24    names of the places where these shellings occurred?

25       A.   The first on-site investigation was in Alipasino Polje "B" Faza is

Page 7408

 1    the name of the district, and the street is Trg Zavnobih.

 2       Q.   And the other on-site investigation was where?

 3       A.   The other on-site investigation was in an area called "C" Faza,

 4    Trg Rade Koncara -- Rade Koncara Square.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us from your investigations how many shells landed

 6    at Trg Zavnobih?

 7       A.   One shell landed.

 8       Q.   And did it land in the vicinity of any particular building or

 9    structure?

10       A.   The shell landed on the pavement behind the building on Zavnobih

11    Square, where there was a school.  Those were the premises of a primary

12    school.

13       Q.   And from your investigations, can you say whether or not there

14    were any casualties as a result of that shelling?

15       A.   In as far as the Zavnobih Square investigation is concerned, when

16    the shell exploded in the vicinity of the school, I do know that a

17    teacher died and two -- and three children as well.  As to the number of

18    casualties, the number of survivors, I don't know exactly.  I believe

19    there could have been about 20, perhaps even more.  Anyway, this was the

20    task of other people on the team.  After the on-site investigation, they

21    had to mark in their reports as to how many casualties there were and

22    whether they were lightly wounded or heavily wounded or whatever.

23       Q.   From your investigations, can you say whether school was in

24    session at the time of that shelling?

25       A.   When I entered the building where the teaching was taking place,

Page 7409

 1    judging by the objects found on the premises, there must have been lessons

 2    going on because I found traces of clothes on the chairs, books; there was

 3    a blackboard, so it seemed to indicate that teaching was underway and then

 4    it was interrupted.

 5       Q.   Did you take photographs of the site?

 6       A.   I made a certain number of pictures, but from the outside, since

 7    the building itself where this make-shift classroom was situated was

 8    surrounded by cement blocks and it was dark in the classroom itself, so as

 9    to be able to make the pictures on the other side, and I did not have a

10    flash on my camera so I could only take pictures of the traces I found

11    outside around the site of the explosion.  And for technical reasons, I

12    was unable to take pictures on the inside.  I could just describe it on

13    the basis of what I saw.

14       Q.   Did you bring those photographs with you when you travelled to

15    The Hague?

16       A.   Yes, as in the case of all the other cases, so as to refresh my

17    memory.

18            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I

19    tender to the witness Exhibit P3681.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.  Mr. Usher, could you please

21    assist Mr. Stamp.

22            MR. STAMP:  There may be a slight misunderstanding.  I have just

23    been told that the reproductions were just made today and it may well be

24    that my friends are just receiving a copy of this document.  I don't know

25    if they were served with it before.

Page 7410

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

 2    Everything is perfect.  We did have a copy.  We have had it for five

 3    seconds, perhaps seven or eight.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  That means, Mr. Stamp, that if the Defence would ask

 5    more time to prepare for cross-examination, that it would only be fair to

 6    give it to them.

 7            MR. STAMP:  We would not object.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  You would not object.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, the thing

10    is, we have copies which are partly legible.  I don't know if these are

11    the same ones.  But generally speaking, the Defence, which is only made up

12    of two members, would like to discuss all that within the team.  This is

13    not the first time, although we don't probably have records of every

14    single case, but we are given these documents at the eleventh hour.  As a

15    consequence, we would like to be able to consult with all the members of

16    our team, and if the Bench authorises us to do so, we will have the

17    witness come back at an appropriate time.  Once we have had the time to

18    prepare, not in a normal manner but perhaps in a satisfactory, partly

19    satisfactory manner.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's see where we go.  I

21    make one observation.  The Chamber will not accept the claim that every

22    member of the team has always seen all documents, but that is not the same

23    as that the Defence should get a reasonable time to study photographs that

24    have been newly introduced.  At the same time, we understand from the

25    Prosecution that they only recently received these photographs.  Am I

Page 7411

 1    right in my understanding, Mr. Stamp?

 2            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Mr. President.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So let us first continue the

 4    examination-in-chief and we'll see how much time you would need and the

 5    Defence would need to prepare for cross-examination on this specific

 6    issue.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember

 8    correctly, this witness was here yesterday and if he came from Sarajevo

 9    yesterday, he must have had those pictures yesterday, and no doubt the

10    Prosecution was preparing the witness the day before yesterday and they

11    must have seen the documents and the pictures the day before yesterday.

12    So it's just a matter of simple courtesy.  I believe the Prosecution has

13    been familiar with this for some time now and it is not by accident that

14    we are being given the documents only now.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Q, when did you first indicate to the Prosecution

16    that you had these photographs and when did you first show to them, to the

17    representatives of the Prosecution?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday.  Yesterday morning, to be

19    precise.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  You showed them for the first time or you indicated

21    that you would have them yesterday?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both.  I told them I had them and I

23    showed them to them because they were with me when I first came in.

24            MR. STAMP:  As I indicated, Mr. President, there is a time lapse

25    between obtaining them and having them reproduced in this manner.  I had

Page 7412

 1    asked that as soon as they were reproduced they should be handed to the

 2    Defence

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  It was five minutes ago, as far as I understand.

 4            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, it was five minutes ago.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Would it not have been -- may I just ask you a

 6    question.  Don't you think that it would have been appropriate that even

 7    if you had to wait for 24 or 36 hours to have them reproduced, to

 8    immediately indicate to the Defence or to ask the assistance of the

 9    Chamber to speed up, because if you were aware of new photographs by

10    yesterday morning, it should not be the case that the Defence only hears

11    about the photographs as you have heard.  I make a distinction between

12    hearing about the existence of and having given access to copies of it.

13    Do you agree with me that it is not appropriate to wait until five minutes

14    ago?

15            MR. STAMP:  I agree and I do apologise.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  We will see what consequences we have to draw out of

17    this as far as the respect of the rights of the Defence are concerned.

18            Please proceed.

19            MR. STAMP:

20       Q.   These documents, these photographs that you are looking at, have a

21    quick look through them, please.  Are those four photographs that you

22    brought and delivered to us yesterday?

23       A.   Yes, these are the reproductions of those photographs.

24       Q.   The last two pages of the document that you have, please don't --

25    please have a look at the last two pages of the documents that you have.

Page 7413












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Page 7414

 1            Are those black and white reproductions of the same photograph?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And do you see writing on the three of those black and white

 4    reproductions?

 5       A.   Yes, below the photographs.

 6       Q.   Could you have a look -- well, before we get to that -- who made

 7    those writings?

 8       A.   Myself.  It is my handwriting.

 9       Q.   Could you have a look at the writing below the photograph with the

10    number 02182301 and could you read it for us.

11       A.     Photograph number 1: "Zavnobih Square up until house number 18

12    where the shell landed approximately the east end side of the building."

13       Q.   And which building are you referring to there?

14       A.   I mean the building where there was this make-shift classroom on

15    the ground floor.  Do you want me to explain any further?  It is on the

16    photo.

17            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic.

19            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I do apologise.  Since my

20    learned friend is asking about the pictures, is asking questions about the

21    pictures, I would like the pictures to be placed on the ELMO because

22    otherwise we don't know what the discussion is all about.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp did indicate the numbers, the numbers that

24    are both in the bottom left, bottom corner of the photographs, and are

25    also stamped on it.  We have to be very careful to put them on the ELMO, I

Page 7415

 1    am afraid, especially in view of the photograph with the numbers ending in

 2    300.  But if it could be done -- but can't you follow it if the numbers

 3    are clearly indicated?

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.  The problem is this:

 5    We've received a single copy and I believe that it would be a good idea

 6    for General Galic to follow this, and he is the only one who doesn't have

 7    the pictures in front of him.  For the reasons you are familiar with, we

 8    only have one set.  So if we could get a supplementary set of copies, we

 9    won't ask for the ELMO.

10                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11            JUDGE ORIE:  We could temporarily provide a copy for

12    General Galic.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, indeed.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  So perhaps even without putting it on the ELMO, we

17    then could proceed, Mr. Stamp.

18            MR. STAMP:  Indeed.  But I was going to ask just now the witness

19    to put the photograph that we are referring to on the ELMO.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Which one would that be, Mr. Stamp?

21            MR. STAMP:  02182301.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  301, yes.  And then the -- I take it that you want

23    the colour copy to be placed on the ELMO?

24            MR. STAMP:  Indeed.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 7416

 1            MR. STAMP:

 2       Q.   Now, could you have a look at that document to your left and point

 3    to the building which is a school.

 4       A.   This is where the school is behind these blocks, so the classroom

 5    itself is surrounded by cement blocks on all sides.  What can be seen on

 6    the picture is the eastern side of the building.

 7            MR. STAMP:  For the record, the witness points to the concrete

 8    structure in the foreground to the left of the photograph.

 9       Q.   Could you point to the spot, if it is there, where the shell

10    landed.

11       A.   It is here and I am indicating the explosion site.  It can be seen

12    on the picture.

13            MR. STAMP:  For the record, the witness points to some markings in

14    approximately the middle of the picture which is behind a dark area which

15    appears to be the entrance of that structure he says is a make-shift

16    school.

17       Q.   That dark area on that photograph of that building in the

18    foreground to the left, is that the entrance to the school?

19       A.   Do you mean this dark part here?

20       Q.   Indeed.

21       A.   That is a passage between -- between these slabs.  The slabs are

22    leaning against the roof of the building itself.  It is a protruding part

23    of the building.  You would pass through here and there was a door here.

24    It was the entrance to the building itself.  Because this classroom was

25    made -- it was an improvised one and it was a -- a business office was

Page 7417

 1    turned into this classroom.  So this dark part in the photograph, it is

 2    just a passage to that entrance to the classroom.

 3       Q.   Could you have a look at the black and white reproduction of your

 4    photographs and have a look at the writings under the photograph bearing

 5    the number 02182302.  And could you read it, please.

 6       A.    "Photograph 2, site where the shell fell."

 7       Q.   And could you have a look at the writing below the photograph

 8    numbered 02182303 and read it, please.

 9       A.   "Photograph 3, blood on the site beneath the slab."

10       Q.   Thank you.

11            MR. STAMP:  The document may be removed.

12       Q.   Before we move on from here, can you tell us in a sentence what

13    was the first photograph with the writings on it, photographs of an area

14    where there are -- there was a certain amount of writings on it.

15       A.   That is a photograph that wasn't shown on the ELMO.

16       Q.   Yes, what is that photograph?  And don't tell us what the writings

17    are but tell us in a sentence what that photograph is about.

18       A.   That photograph shows part of the official registry in which the

19    case was recorded.  It says what happened, where it happened.  It is in

20    this registry that we have to make entries about what happened exactly,

21    and we have to keep this in our premises.  We have to note the exact date

22    where it happened, when, when the case was concluded, et cetera, et

23    cetera.

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            You, that day, the 9th of November, 1993, you investigated any

Page 7418

 1    other scene of shelling in Alipasino Polje?

 2       A.   I did.  Yes, there are.

 3       Q.   And did you take photographs of that site?

 4       A.   I did, yes.

 5                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6            MR. STAMP:  Before I sit, may I just indicate to the Court that we

 7    have copies of those photographs available.  We will not proceed to

 8    produce them, but they have been made available to the Defence and I

 9    understand the Defence have already used them.  So at this stage, that

10    concludes my cross-examination.  May it please you, Mr. President, that

11    concludes my examination-in-chief.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stamp, I was just trying to understand your

13    last words.  I will just re-read them.  You say the Defence already used

14    them.  That is what I did not fully understand, as a matter of fact.

15            MR. STAMP:  I think the Defence used them to -- in the

16    cross-examination of a previous witness.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  These same photographs?

18            MR. STAMP:  Not these.  There is another set in respect to the

19    other investigation --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  I was just a bit confused about what photographs you

21    were referring to.  Thank you then, Mr. Stamp.

22            I am not going to ask whether the Defence is ready for

23    cross-examining the witness, but I will ask whether they are ready to

24    start the cross-examination of the witness.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  Microphone, please, Mr. Stamp.

Page 7419

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we are ready to start the

 2    cross-examination.  Yes, we are ready to start the cross-examination, Mr.

 3    President.  First of all, before starting the cross-examination, I see

 4    that the document that we have been provided with under 0282300, appears

 5    to -- appears to be a document that as the document -- as the Defence says

 6    has been manipulated in that the last vertical rectangle again appears to

 7    contain numbers which have been effaced.  I have no other comments to

 8    make, but I am certain that there is an original somewhere and that

 9    perhaps one day it should be found.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are either now or in the later

11    stage, of course, entitled to cross-examine the witness also on these kind

12    of details.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly, and I would like to

14    add that these are not details in the view of the Defence.

15                          Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

16       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good day.  Can you hear me?

17       A.   Yes, I can hear you.

18       Q.   Witness, I will go back to some of the things you spoke about just

19    a minute ago.  You told us that you had lived in what is called Alipasino

20    Polje; is that correct?

21       A.   Yes, that's correct.

22       Q.   Witness, you lived there for the entire period that we are

23    interested in, 1993, 1994 -- 1992, 1993, and 1994?

24       A.   Yes, I lived there during that period.

25       Q.   Witness, is it true that on the 15th of November 1995 you gave a

Page 7420

 1    statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?

 2       A.   Yes, I did.

 3       Q.   Can you remember it in general?  Can you remember the broad

 4    outline of this statement?

 5       A.   I think that I could remember everything.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, isn't it true that in the statement you said

 7    that you had taken photographs and that they had been made available to

 8    the Prosecution?

 9       A.   I said that I had taken photographs and that they would all be

10    made available to the Prosecution.

11       Q.   Witness, we are talking about the 15th of November, 1995; is that

12    correct?

13       A.   Very well.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I suggest that

15    we should perhaps present the document of which we have a copy, but which

16    apparently the document -- the witness signed as a statement.  But before

17    doing that, I think I should mask something that we have written on it.

18       Q.   Witness, do you understand English?

19       A.   A little.

20       Q.   Thank you.

21            Did you also sign your witness -- your statement in the English

22    version, did you also sign the English version of your statement?

23       A.   I can't remember.  If you show it to me, I will tell you whether

24    the signature is mine.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I remind you to switch off

Page 7421












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Page 7422

 1    your microphone whenever the witness --

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course, thank

 3    you.  I apologise.

 4            Mr. Usher, I need your assistance, please.

 5       Q.   Witness, I am going to show you your statement.  Could you just

 6    tell me whether you can see your initials there?

 7       A.   Yes, I can see them.

 8       Q.   Very well.  I am going to ask the usher to bring the document

 9    back to me.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please return the document to

11    Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will return to the English

13    document.  That will make it possible for us to be more direct.

14       Q.   Witness, you said that you had been a policeman and you said that,

15    before that, you were a student.  Do you remember saying that?

16       A.   You said that I stated that I was a student?

17       Q.   The Prosecution asked you a question yesterday and they asked you

18    what you had been before becoming a policeman, and you said that you were

19    a student and that you also had a private business.  Is that correct?  Do

20    you remember saying that?

21       A.   That's correct.

22       Q.   Thank you.  My question is:  What did you study?

23       A.   I studied engineering.

24       Q.   What degree did you obtain?

25       A.   I didn't finish my studies.

Page 7423

 1       Q.   You told us about a private business.  What was the nature of that

 2    business?  Could you please tell us that.

 3       A.   It was a commerce and services.

 4       Q.   Could you be more precise, Witness?

 5       A.   We would repair office equipment and we would sell such equipment,

 6    so cash registers, equipment that is needed for offices.

 7       Q.   Witness, were you involved in business during the war?

 8       A.   I wasn't involved in that kind of business during the war because

 9    I changed my place of residence, and everything that I had before the war

10    remained at some other location, through no fault of my own.

11       Q.   Witness, a minute ago you spoke about or, rather, yesterday you

12    spoke about investigations that you had carried out with regard to snipers

13    and to sniper shells.  Do you remember talking about this?

14       A.   I remember carrying out investigations into sniper shooting.

15       Q.   You talked -- you told us about the necessity of having two

16    traces to determine the direction.  Do you remember speaking about this?

17       A.   Yes, I remember that I spoke about this, about the fact that when

18    you investigate sniping activity, I said it was necessary to have two

19    traces in order to determine exactly where the bullet came from.

20       Q.   Thank you for that answer, Witness.

21            Do you know the name of Mr. Kucanin?  Are you familiar with this

22    name?

23       A.   Yes, I know the name.

24       Q.   I will return to that a little later.  I am going back to the

25    subject of projectiles.  Within your service, were there any technical

Page 7424

 1    margins of error that were used when you would determine the direction

 2    from which a shot came?

 3       A.   No, I didn't have such a device in order to determine areas when

 4    shots were fired.

 5       Q.   Witness, when you say "I," should we take that to mean the police

 6    as a whole, those who cooperated with you?

 7       A.   No, just myself.

 8       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Do you know whether your colleagues had such

 9    rules, rules which would include margins of error or such technical means?

10       A.   No, I don't know.

11       Q.   Thank you for that answer.

12            I am going to talk about Mr. Kucanin.  You said that you knew

13    him.  Is this someone you would see?  And I am talking in the past.

14       A.   Do you mean whether I remember him?

15       Q.   Exactly, and whether you saw him in the past.

16       A.   Yes.  Yes, in an official capacity.

17       Q.   Witness, could I ask you when you saw Mr. Kucanin for the last

18    time or when you spoke to him for the last time?

19       A.   I can't give you the exact date, but I think that it was about a

20    month ago.

21       Q.   Witness, was that after he had returned from The Hague?

22       A.   I think so.  Yes, it was.  It was.

23       Q.   Very well.  Witness, could you please tell us what you spoke

24    about?

25       A.   Mr. Kucanin had told me that he had been here and that he had

Page 7425

 1    made a statement.  He wanted to meet with me and he wanted to sit down

 2    and have a chat.  We had this meeting after quite a long period of time

 3    because I think that I hadn't seen him for a few years.  I can't tell you

 4    exactly how long it had been since I last saw him.  Kucanin did what he

 5    did and he doesn't have the same job any more.  I continued to do my job,

 6    and believe me, the meeting was very brief.  We didn't sit down anywhere

 7    but we only spent a little time together in the street.  I know where we

 8    met.  I know the exact place where we met, if you are interested in this.

 9       Q.   That might interest everyone present here, but before talking

10    about that, could you confirm whether he called you in your office?  Is

11    that correct?

12       A.   No, I didn't call him to at the office.  We met quite my chance.

13    I had other work at the time, other duties, and I met him at that place

14    where we met.  And he then told me his story.  I didn't know that he had

15    been here.  That's when he told me he had been here.  But he didn't go

16    into the details.  He didn't tell me any details about that when we met.

17       Q.   Nevertheless, you spoke about what Mr. Kucanin might have said

18    before this Trial Chamber?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   What did Mr. Kucanin tell you about the proceedings here in

21    general and about his testimony?

22       A.   He told me that he had been here in the courtroom and he said he

23    had given a statement.  There wasn't enough time for him to tell me

24    anything about that, but he did mention that we should meet.  However, I

25    didn't call him and I didn't have time to meet him after that.

Page 7426

 1       Q.   You are quite categorical on this issue.

 2       A.   Well, yes, I am just telling you the truth.

 3       Q.   Very well.  With regard to this matter, do you know what the Zrak

 4    factory is?

 5       A.   I know where it is and know more or less what was produced in that

 6    factory.  But I was never there; I never entered that factory.  I've

 7    passed by it and I know where it is located.

 8       Q.   Could you tell us where it is located and what it produced?

 9       A.   It is in the area.  I think that it also belongs to the Novi Grad

10    municipality area because I carried out a few on-site investigations over

11    there, too.  It is a factory which existed before the war broke out.  I

12    think that before the war, it produced -- and what I am saying now is what

13    I heard.  I think they produced optical devices for measurements of some

14    kind.  Whether it operated during the war, I don't know; I was never

15    there, neither before the war, nor during the war, nor after the war.

16    I've passed by it, yes, because there is a road that passes by the factory

17    itself.

18       Q.   Very well.  Witness, we are going to show you a plan of Sarajevo,

19    which we could put on the ELMO.  And could you please -- could you please

20    show us the location in question on this plan, perhaps with the assistance

21    of the usher.  Thank you.

22            THE REGISTRAR:  D96.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Witness, thank you.

25            Do you recognise what you can see on the screen, that is to say

Page 7427

 1    part of the town of Sarajevo?

 2       A.   Yes, I recognise it.  But I can't see it very well.

 3       Q.   Why can't you see it well?  Could we perhaps enlarge the image?

 4    Can you see now?

 5       A.   Yes, fine.

 6       Q.   Could you pinpoint the location we were talking about just a

 7    minute ago.

 8       A.   The location, yes, I can.  But the building, not exactly, but I

 9    could point to the location more or less.

10       Q.   Witness, I would be grateful if you could indicate this on the

11    ELMO that you have on your right, on the map that is on the ELMO.

12       A.   This is the area here, the exact place.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, the usher is going to show you -- is going to

14    give you a colour -- a pen of a concern colour in a minute.  And could you

15    please encircle this area with the pen.

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

18            We are going to continue with this map.  Witness, do you know

19    school called Blagoje Parovic, I think?

20       A.   I have heard of it, yes.  I think it is in the area of Novi

21    Sarajevo, but I don't know where it is exactly.  I think it is a primary

22    school, but believe me, I don't know which street it is in or which area.

23       Q.   Could you point to on the map that you have on your right, could

24    you point to the zone in which this school was, as far as you can remember

25    that.

Page 7428

 1       A.   I can see the area of the municipality of Ilidza and Novi Grad on

 2    the map and I think that the school was in the area of Novi Sarajevo but I

 3    don't know where exactly.  There was also a street called Blagoje Parovic,

 4    but believe me, I don't know about that school.

 5       Q.   Very well, Witness.  Thank you for that answer.

 6            But you said you had heard of this school.  Where, when and how

 7    did you hear about it?

 8       A.   Well, I was born in Sarajevo so I had heard of that school.  Then

 9    I had heard of other schools which I never visited.  And well, having

10    heard of it, I don't necessarily have to know exactly where it is.  What I

11    mean to say well, Blagoje Parovic, but does the name of this school mean

12    that it's in the Blagoje Parovic Street or that the school is called like

13    that?   It is a familiar name.  I believe it was a primary school.  But I

14    have nothing of significance to be able to tell you in relation to that

15    school.

16       Q.   Do you know of a school which was called Pavle Goranin?

17       A.   Yes.  I am not certain but I think it is in the Otoka settlement.

18       Q.   Could you show it on the map.

19       A.   I don't think the Otoka settlement can be seen on this map.

20       Q.   Fine.  Perhaps we will show you the second part of the map in a

21    minute.

22            Witness, are you familiar with a school called Petar Dakic?

23       A.   No, I am not.

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            This brings me back to the first two names I have mentioned

Page 7429












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Page 7430

 1    earlier on.  Do you know whether in one or the other, or in both of these

 2    establishments, there was a team of snipers from the BH army?

 3       A.   I am not familiar with it and I have not carried out any on-site

 4    investigations in those schools.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know in your capacity as police officer that

 6    the BH army also had a so-called sniper unit?  When I say "Oza," that

 7    means just as well as the other units, some other units.

 8       A.   As a police officer, I am not familiar with the structure of the

 9    army or what they had.  But perhaps as an armed force they might have had

10    companies organised like that, but I am unable to tell you anything about

11    the matter.

12       Q.   Witness, do you know whether the so-called BH army also had

13    specialised units for mortar, that is to say specialised mortar

14    battalions?

15       A.   Once again, I was a police officer and it is an altogether

16    different job.  My job was completely different so I really can't answer

17    this question.

18       Q.   Thank you.  For what reason were you not mobilised to join the

19    army?

20       A.   I joined the police force.

21       Q.   Witness, do you know where the Cenex building is?

22       A.   Cenex had several buildings.  I don't know which one you mean.

23       Q.   The one which is closest to the school I have mentioned earlier,

24    the first school.

25       A.   Cenex had a building -- well, I don't know if it was the entire

Page 7431

 1    building.  It was a building on pillars and it was in the area of Novo

 2    Sarajevo municipality, near the bakery, supposedly.  Is that the building

 3    you have in mind?

 4       Q.   Could you show us on the map where this Cenex building near Stup

 5    is?

 6       A.   I can't show you this Cenex because it is not on the map.

 7       Q.   Well, then, thank you, Witness.

 8            Witness, are you familiar with the name of Mr. Sefer Halilovic?

 9       A.   Yes, I am familiar with the name.

10       Q.   Who was he, Witness?

11       A.   For a while, he was the commander of the BH army.

12       Q.   Witness, have you ever been under orders of that person?

13       A.   Never.  I have never met this man in person.

14       Q.   Witness, when exactly did you join the police force and when did

15    you start work as a police officer?

16       A.    I joined the police force in 1993, and as to the exact date when

17    I got the letter telling me I could start work.  I can't remember.  I

18    believe it was in the second half of 1993 when I was informed of my having

19    been accepted in writing.

20       Q.   Witness, could you remind us of the date when the hostilities

21    first started in Sarajevo.

22       A.   It was in April 1992.

23       Q.   Thank you for this answer, Witness.

24            You've mentioned that you joined the police force in the second

25    half of 1993.  What were you doing between April 1992 and the second half

Page 7432

 1    of 1993?

 2       A.    I spent 1992 staying with my cousins, with my family, as a

 3    refugee from Dobrinja IV, up until the point where I had to register with

 4    someone.  And it was in January of 1993 I joined the police force.  That

 5    was when I could start the seminar for this job.  And upon completion of

 6    that seminar, I got the official letter and as of that date, I am

 7    registered as an active policeman.  In other words, I couldn't have been

 8    considered as an active police officer before finishing the course.

 9       Q.   Very well.

10            So if my understanding is correct, you went on a six-month course

11    starting in January 1993 and then you joined the police force for all

12    intents and purposes; is that correct?

13       A.   It is correct that I went on a six-month course.  I can't tell you

14    exactly whether it started in January or not.  There was some preparation

15    going on.  I can't remember the exact date when we first started but it

16    lasted for barely six months.

17       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

18            What did you do between April 1992 and January 1993?

19       A.   For the most part, I was trying to survive, and I did say I was

20    staying with relatives, I was a refugee.

21       Q.   Was there not a general mobilisation order very soon after the

22    start of the hostilities in Sarajevo?

23       A.   I don't know what the exact date was.  I know I've tried

24    everything because I suffered a great deal at that time when I had to

25    leave my original residence from before the war, not just myself, but my

Page 7433

 1    entire family, were trying to simply survive and make ends meet.  As to

 2    this mobilisation as to whether it was a forced one, I can't talk much

 3    about that.  I can tell you what I myself did.  In the time I joined the

 4    police force, it was extremely difficult to even be able to qualify for

 5    the job, which I still hold.

 6       Q.   I do understand, Witness, but is it not correct that there was

 7    proclamation according to which all men of a certain age had to report to

 8    the closest barracks?

 9       A.   I am not familiar with it and I never reported that -- well,

10    actually, when I first got there, I had to register at the settlement

11    where I was living, the municipal offices.  As to where those lists were

12    taken, I don't know.

13       Q.   Witness, have you collaborated in any way with what is normally

14    called the Civil Defence?

15            THE INTERPRETER:  And could the speaker please speak a bit closer

16    to the microphone.  Thank you.

17       A.   Yes, of course I had to.  I had to collaborate with the Civil

18    Defence.

19       Q.   Were you incorporated within a unit, not of the Civil Defence as

20    it appears in the transcript, but the Territorial Defence, TEO?  That's

21    the Serb acronym, TEO.

22       A.   No, I did not belong to any of their units.

23       Q.   Thank you for this answer.  I would now like to pursue another

24    line of reasoning.  In your capacity as a police officer, you said you

25    travelled both within this area that is of interest to us and in other

Page 7434

 1    parts of Sarajevo.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   It is correct.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Do you have a car?

 4       A.   You mean now?

 5       Q.   No, at the time.

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Did you have an official car?

 8       A.   I did not.

 9       Q.   I mean, could your service make available cars in case you needed

10    them on the job?

11       A.   In very rare cases, I did carry out on-the-spot investigations and

12    I used any vehicles.

13       Q.   Why do you say, "on extremely rare occasions"?

14       A.   My job was in the centre of town.  Since the entire area of the

15    city had been shelled, that was the decision made within my department to

16    have us work close to where we lived.  And since at the time I lived in

17    the area of Alipasino Polje, the best thing was for me and a couple of my

18    colleagues was to work in that area.  So for a certain period of time, I

19    spent also in Novi Grad, at the Novi Grad police station, but my permanent

20    job and my original department was in the centre of town.

21       Q.   Very well, thank you.  Just very briefly, where did you get fuel

22    and how?

23       A.   I never got it anywhere.  When investigations were carried out, I

24    used the official car from the police station of Novi Grad, whereas my

25    department belonged to the security service.  If I needed a car, I would

Page 7435

 1    have to get in touch with Novi Grad people and ask them to take me there

 2    or for me to be given a vehicle.  But I never had to get petrol.  If there

 3    was a vehicle available, I would use it.  If there were none, I couldn't

 4    use it.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, looking at the clock, if you would

 6    find a suitable moment somewhere in the next five minutes.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the break, you mean?

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  I would have a break for 20 minutes.  I would like to

 9    have a break for 20 minutes starting somewhere in the --

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can break now, thank you.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will adjourn until five minutes to 6.00.

12                          --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

13                          --- Upon resuming at 5.59 p.m.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Witness, I would like us to continue with some further questions.

17    I would like to come back to the two squares that you have mentioned

18    earlier, that is to say the one which was called Rade Koncara Square and

19    the other one which I believe was called Zavnobih.  Do you remember that?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            Witness, do you know whether in one of those situations the army

23    had the means to manufacture arms, I mean any workshops where those arms

24    could have been manufactured?

25       A.   I don't know.

Page 7436

 1       Q.   Witness, do you know whether in one or the other of those two

 2    squares there were any canteens that could have been used by the armed

 3    forces?

 4       A.   I do not know of any premises used by the army in that area.

 5       Q.   Witness, do you know whether in one or the other of those two

 6    squares the army had any administrative offices?

 7       A.   You see, soldiers travelled throughout the city, and exactly as to

 8    where their buildings and premises were, I can't tell you.  There were

 9    some premises possibly someplace, but I can't tell you where exactly

10    because I do not know.

11       Q.   Witness, you lived in Alipasino Polje.  Did you at the time used

12    to see soldiers in the area of Alipasino Polje frequently?

13       A.   Yes, I did see soldiers.

14       Q.   Were they armed and in uniform or armed without uniform, or did

15    they appear in any other way?

16       A.   For the most part, they were uniformed.  Even I had that uniform

17    because there were no other clothes available.  And we called it work

18    clothes, not uniforms.  There were quite a few people wearing those

19    clothes who did other jobs, and I can't tell you exactly whether they were

20    armed or not.  There were quite a few people who moved about carrying

21    guns.  And as to any heavy weaponry, I didn't see anything.

22       Q.   When you say people walking around town carrying arms, you mean

23    uniformed people or civilians without uniforms?

24       A.   For the most part, uniformed people carried arms.

25       Q.   But since you said "for the most part," I assume that there were

Page 7437












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Page 7438

 1    also civilians who were armed.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   The clothes, the work clothes, the uniforms, everything was worn.

 3    As to everybody wearing uniforms being a soldier, I don't know, I can't

 4    remember.  I can't remember about people wearing civilians clothes.  At

 5    the very beginning, there were no uniforms at all and people would wear

 6    their own clothes and they would carry arms as well.

 7       Q.   Thank you for this reply.

 8            Witness, I'd like to submit to you -- but in order to speed things

 9    up and simplify matters, I have photocopies.  So I would like to submit to

10    you two documents which have already been mentioned on another occasion,

11    D55 and D81, and we have got a couple of copies for everybody concerned.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So if I may, Mr. President,

13    we can have them circulated with the assistance of the usher, who I can

14    see is rushing towards me.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  D81, I have as a diagram of Markale market.  Is

16    that the one you wish?

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.  There must be an error

18    there.  Could you give me these papers back?   They were prenumbered.  We

19    are going to check it out on the list.  D81, according to our reference -

20    but perhaps it is a mistake - should be an order coming from 102nd

21    Motorised Brigade from January 1993 -- sorry, the 4th of June, 1993.  If

22    that is not on the list, we are going to submit it under a new number.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  [Interpretation] May I see it?

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is available to you.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  I have not carefully listened.  Do you remember the

Page 7439

 1    date on which --

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My colleague is looking for

 3    it.  We have found the number, and if it had not been produced before, we

 4    are going to do it now.  The date when it was first produced should be the

 5    1st of March, I believe -- or the 3rd of March, for D55, at any rate.  But

 6    now I am looking through the list of documents.  I haven't checked it out

 7    myself.  Yes, indeed, there is a mistake there.  I am going to try to

 8    check what the correct number is.  As a matter of fact, I would like to

 9    start with number 55, and the rest of it is going to be checked.

10       Q.   Witness, it is not D81, but apparently D54.  The

11    second document, I mean.  And we will see it a bit more clearly later.

12            Could you take a look at D55, please?  Witness, do you have the

13    document in front of you?

14       A.   D55, yes, I do.

15       Q.   Is it in a language that you can understand?  Is it the English

16    translation you have in front of you or is it the original?

17       A.   I have the English document in front of me and I have got a copy

18    enclosed to this translation, something in my own language.

19                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...  continuing.

21    Could we just have a look at the original for one second.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is there a problem,

23    Mr. President?  Thank you.

24       Q.   Witness, would you agree that this document mentions the command

25    of the 102nd Motorised Brigade?

Page 7440

 1       A.   I don't know.  I can't agree with that because all I can see is

 2    that in English it says, "the command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade."  I

 3    can see that on the paper in front of me.

 4       Q.   Witness, can you take the text in Serbian?  Take the Serbian

 5    text.  Do you have it in front of you?

 6       A.   I have this here.  It says:  "The command of the 102nd Motorised

 7    Brigade."

 8       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, could you please have a look at the

 9    fourth line which follows item one, so the fourth line after the

10    "communications centre," after what is written down as "communications

11    centre."

12       A.   Yes, I can see it.

13       Q.   Have you found the sentence?

14       A.   The third or the fourth line?

15       Q.   The fourth line underlined.

16       A.   Do you want me to read it, please?

17       Q.   Yes, please do.

18       A.   It says, "At the command post of the 1st Infantry Brigade in

19    A. Polje, Alipasino Polje connected to the post office in Sarajevo all the

20    time and the main staff of the B --

21       Q.   Could you please repeat the abbreviations, Witness, the ones at

22    the end.  Just the abbreviations.

23       A.    "The command post of the 1st Motorised Brigade, the main staff of

24    the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

25       Q.   Witness, would you agree that in the area of Alipasino Polje there

Page 7441

 1    was a command post, what one usually calls a command and control post?

 2       A.   I can't agree with that.  All I could do was read this here.  I

 3    don't know anything about that.

 4       Q.   Very well.

 5            Witness, do you know where you can find the command post of the

 6    102nd Motorised Brigade?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Thank you.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, could we please present

10    the document with the number D97.  Could the usher please assist us.

11       Q.   Do you have the document in front of you?

12       A.   Yes, I do.

13       Q.   Do you have it both in the Serbian version and in the English

14    version?

15       A.   I have it in a language which I can understand.

16       Q.   Very well.  In that case, could you tell us what you can see under

17    item seven in this document?

18       A.   It says, "the Stela base, [Zavno BH Square 17]."

19       Q.   Witness, what was the distance between this number 17, how far was

20    this number 17 from the incidents which you mentioned a while ago?

21       A.   You mean the case that I -- well, this is an uneven number, an odd

22    number.  I don't think that the numbers have changed to this day.  I don't

23    know how far it was from number 17.  It should be on the other side of the

24    square.  I know that square.  I have passed through it quite often and I

25    still do.  But I don't know exactly where the entrance at number 17 would

Page 7442

 1    be.

 2       Q.   Doesn't Stela refer to a restaurant?

 3       A.   I think it's a restaurant.

 4       Q.   Very well.  In your capacity of a policeman who visited the area,

 5    were you able to pinpoint this restaurant?

 6       A.   I am not an observer.  I was just carrying out an investigation

 7    when I got there.  But Stela, I think that there was a cafe there, it was

 8    a cafe called Stela before the war, too.

 9       Q.   Witness, how far is it from the cafe that you know and the site of

10    impact approximately?

11       A.   Between 50 and 100 metres.  I couldn't be precise.

12       Q.   Witness, thank you for this answer.

13            Witness, you told us that you yourself had found the stabiliser;

14    is that correct?

15       A.   In this case?

16       Q.   No, I am talking about one of the cases that you investigated and

17    you said that you found the stabiliser at the site; is that correct?

18       A.   I didn't personally find it.

19       Q.   Who found it?

20       A.   I can't answer.  I can't remember exactly.

21       Q.   Does this concern the incident for which you said you were one of

22    the first to arrive at the site?

23       A.   Well, usually, as I was closest to the site, I was in the Novi

24    Grad Public Security Station, I tried to get there first before the other

25    members of the team because the other members of the team came by car from

Page 7443

 1    the town.  I think that if I had found that part of the shell at the site,

 2    it would have been photographed.  But it is possible that it was given to

 3    a member of the investigations team, and on that basis I mentioned that an

 4    explosion had been -- had occurred and I mentioned what the calibre was.

 5       Q.   Witness, did you yourself see this stabiliser?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.

 7       Q.   Who was it given to as far as you know?

 8       A.   That stabiliser, I took that stabiliser and it was put away in the

 9    department in which I worked and this is what I stated in my report.

10       Q.   Did you have the opportunity of collecting what one calls mortar

11    balls?

12       A.   In that case, in the case which I took over that stabiliser, well,

13    investigations were carried out in such conditions that it was quite

14    possible for there to be renewed shelling so that the shrapnel, obviously,

15    it wasn't -- they weren't at the site of the explosion itself.  They would

16    be dispersed.  In most cases it was necessary to investigate the site

17    itself.  Finding the shrapnel was an especially dangerous task because it

18    was possible for the shelling to recommence and that would have put in

19    danger the lives of the investigators and the members of the investigating

20    team.

21       Q.   We are going to provide you with document number 98 with regard to

22    this matter.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  D98, English translation, D98.1.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Witness, do you have this document in front of you?

Page 7444

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Witness, is this one of the incidents that we have spoken about

 3    when you were examined by the Prosecution?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Could you remind us which incident is in question?

 6       A.   This is an incident that took place on the 22nd of January, 1994.

 7    The Cetinska and Klara Zetkin streets were shelled, that is to say

 8    Cetinska and Klara Zetkin.

 9       Q.   Witness, I think I heard you say just a minute ago that given the

10    conditions that prevailed, you had to work on your own at the site.  Is

11    that quite correct?

12       A.   No, it is not true that I worked alone at the site.  I was only

13    able to visually inspect what was at the site.

14       Q.   Were you alone when carrying out this inspection?

15       A.   I can't remember.

16       Q.   You don't know whether there were other specialists with you,

17    ballistic experts or specialists of another kind?

18       A.   Yes, later on.  But before then, I got there before them with

19    colleagues from the Public Security station in Novi Grad who were also

20    present at the on-site investigation.

21       Q.   Could you tell us how much later after you the colleagues arrived

22    there, the colleagues who are mentioned in the report that you have in

23    front of you?

24       A.   I can't remember exactly when the team arrived and assembled.

25       Q.   Could you confirm that these persons were present at the site

Page 7445












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13   English transcripts.













Page 7446

 1    with you?

 2       A.   The persons who have been listed here, yes, they were at the site

 3    with me.

 4       Q.   Could you tell us who the special expert was?

 5       A.   His name was Borislav Stankov.

 6       Q.   Witness, just a minute ago with regard to the questions concerning

 7    ballistics, you said that you could, generally speaking, identify the

 8    direction from which shots came, given your experience?

 9       A.   Only on the basis of the traces left by the explosion of certain

10    projectiles.  It is only on this basis that it is possible to determine

11    the direction.

12       Q.   Witness, didn't you say that - I think in your statement of the

13    15th of November, 1995 - that with regard to the incident that we are

14    talking about, the direction of the shell in ballistic terms came over the

15    positions, the shell came over the positions held by the Serbian army but

16    also over the positions held by the so-called BH army.  Do you remember

17    saying this?

18            MR. STAMP:  I think that question could only be fairly put if my

19    friend directs the witness to which of the shelling incidents that he is

20    speaking about.  The witness has testified to investigating four impact

21    sites and perhaps three shelling incidents.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was I right in understanding,

23    Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you were talking about the incident of the 22nd of

24    January, 1994?  Yes.  That became clear to me from the line of

25    questioning.

Page 7447

 1            Please proceed.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Thank you.

 3       Q.   I will go back to this question.  Witness, is it true that you

 4    said the direction from which the shell came or what you thought was the

 5    direction from which the shell came, it could have, in technical terms,

 6    come from both of the camps because the trajectory included two possible

 7    sources, two possible origins:  both the Serbian party, the so-called Serb

 8    part, and the so-called BH part?  Is that correct?

 9       A.   I said that on the basis of the traces found, one would determine

10    the direction and in the settlement I already mentioned was already in

11    that direction.  I didn't mention the place from which the shell was fired

12    though.

13       Q.   Witness, didn't you say that --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you going to read because that

15    very often avoids a lot of confusion.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, maybe a little later, but

17    I am going to address this matter without reading.  Thank you.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... pause after the

19    question so that the Prosecution is able to follow what part of the

20    statement you are referring to.

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.  Gladly.

22       Q.   Witness, didn't you say that this was a technique used by the

23    Serbs:  They would position themselves near the positions of the Muslim

24    forces in order to create confusion?

25       A.   I can't remember.

Page 7448

 1       Q.   Very well.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am going to

 3    read out something.  I want to check that there are no problems with

 4    regard to the names in the statement and I would like to be authorised to

 5    do so in order to avoid any confusion.

 6            Could you allow me 30 seconds, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 7                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 8            MR. STAMP:  And since it appears that my friend wishes to confront

 9    the witness with something in his statement, I would ask that the

10    particular incident where any comment might be made about in that

11    statement is given to the witness.  If the witness is to be confronted

12    with a statement or a part of a statement, then that particular incident

13    should be told to the witness so that the witness may be able to put it in

14    context.  I am quite sure that my friend won't put anything to the witness

15    out of context.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, you are more or less asking me to give

17    instructions to Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  What I did, as a matter of fact, is

18    that I asked Mr. Piletta-Zanin to at least pause and perhaps ask the

19    witness to wait for a second so that you can check whether there finally

20    the question is such that you would have to object against it.

21            MR. STAMP:  Very well.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to quote what

24    the witness said.  I would just like to verify this, if we put the

25    document on the screen, there aren't any names that could be problematic.

Page 7449

 1    This might take a little while.  Thank you.

 2       Q.   I am going to read what you said, Witness, on the 15th of

 3    November, 1995 and I am going to read it because you spoke of a general

 4    tactic and this concerns both the incident of the 9th of November, 1993 of

 5    which you have spoken here in Alipasino Polje and it also concerns other

 6    incidents, including the one that occurred in January.

 7            I am going to read this out in English.  [In English] "The BSA to

 8    fire shells from close to our positions to confuse the investigators."

 9            [Interpretation] Witness, do you remember having said this?

10       A.   If that is what it says in my statement, then I did, but I can't

11    remember the exact date -- details.  After all, that was seven years ago.

12       Q.   In other words, Witness, if according to your statement you said

13    that such and such shell came from a position which was close to so-called

14    Muslim positions or a so-called Muslim position, would you agree that

15    theoretically, it was also possible -- it would also be possible for this

16    shell to have come from a Muslim position?

17       A.   I don't want to agree with anything in particular.  All I did was

18    my job.  Where the shell came from, well, there are ballistic experts to

19    determine that.  They can determine this on the basis of other elements.

20    They can determine where the shell was fired from.  My job was to

21    investigate the site.  If I stated something like that, something like

22    what you have just read out, that was an opinion of mine that I expressed.

23       Q.   Witness, I am going to -- I am going to provide you with this page

24    and I would like you to identify your signature, please, because I think

25    that you are putting to question what you stated at the time.

Page 7450

 1       A.   Well, this is in English but I can see my initials here and I said

 2    that I wasn't contesting this.  If that's what it states, then, yes, the

 3    statement is mine.  It's been signed.

 4       Q.   Very well.  In that case --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, would you please return the statement to

 6    Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8       Q.   Witness, I don't think you have answered my question.  It is

 9    therefore theoretically possible that such a shell came from a line which

10    was held by the Muslim forces?

11       A.   Theoretically, yes.

12       Q.   Thank you for your answer.

13            Witness, you mentioned the diameter -- I apologise -- calibre, 120

14    millimetre calibre.  Do you stand by this?

15       A.   Yes, I mentioned that.

16       Q.   Do you stand by what you stated?

17       A.   Yes, I can confirm that I mentioned a 120 millimetre calibre.

18       Q.   Do you know whether other experts from your group found a 120

19    millimetre calibre?

20       A.   Later on I found it out, but on the basis of the report from the

21    ballistics expert that there were other calibres in question.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  May I just ask, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please

23    repeat your question because there might be some confusing -- your

24    question was:  "Do you know whether other experts from your group found

25    a -- "

Page 7451

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not 120 millimetre.

 2    It's an 82 millimetre calibre.  We have a problem with the figures today.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  That is what I have.  This could create confusion.

 4    So the question is whether his colleague found an 82 millimetre calibre.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will rephrase it.

 6       Q.   Witness, you have already answered the question but is it correct

 7    that other experts found other calibres, calibres which were not 120

 8    millimetre calibres and they stated that the calibres in question were 82

 9    millimetre calibres?

10       A.   I read in the report from the ballistics experts that the calibres

11    in question were 82 millimetre calibre.

12       Q.   Thank you for that answer, Witness.

13            Witness, I would like to turn back to the two squares that we

14    mentioned a minute ago, the Rade Koncara Square and Zavnobiha.  There was

15    a question I haven't asked you.  As far as you know, were there any

16    premises used by the police in those squares?  And as a policeman, as

17    citizen, you might be able to provide us with an answer.

18       A.   I am not sure, but I think that in the Rade Koncara Square, there

19    was a department of some kind.  Whether it was a police station, I am not

20    sure because I never went there.  It was department of the uniformed

21    police but I don't belong to that department so I can't claim this with

22    certainty.

23       Q.   Witness, what do you call a department, a section?  Could you be

24    more precise?

25       A.   Perhaps there was some sort of station of the uniformed police

Page 7452

 1    there for that area.  And perhaps they went on shifts there because

 2    everything was done in order to prevent people from moving in order to

 3    make sure that people didn't have to move too much because of the

 4    shelling.  But how many people were, and up until when, I am not really in

 5    a position to say.  Nor can I say who issued an order or how many people

 6    were there.  But this is just my opinion.  I really don't know whether

 7    there was such a place.  I know that a department -- there was no

 8    department of the criminal police there.

 9       Q.   Thank you.

10            Witness, thank you for this answer.  You said that it was

11    necessary for the people to move as little as possible.  Do I understand

12    you correctly if I say that in a certain sense there was a dissolution of

13    the various police stations and the various command posts in the town,

14    that these places broke up.

15       A.   I don't understand when you say "command post."  There were

16    several police stations, public security stations.  They existed before

17    the conflict and they still exist now.  But there are police

18    administrations now.  There's the public security station in Novi Grad and

19    there's one in Nova Sarajevo, in Centar, in Stari Grad -- there are public

20    security stations in all these places.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- if I may interrupt you.  I am

22    trying to think at what we are going to do today and in the few coming

23    days.  I know that if the cross-examination of the witness would take

24    until 7.00, that you would have used less time than the

25    examination-in-chief.  On the other hand, the examination-in-chief

Page 7453












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13   English transcripts.













Page 7454

 1    included the examination of the witness on the new photographs, so I take

 2    it that if you want to reserve some time for that as well, well, there

 3    would be 10 to 15 minutes left.  I also know that it has been scheduled

 4    to, when possible, to examine an expert for two days you indicated

 5    approximately.  So if we would start with that tomorrow and two days that

 6    would take us until the -- up until Friday in the afternoon.  So I am just

 7    wondering what -- how much time you would still need.  And of course, as I

 8    said, if you want to study with the photographs, we will hear from you

 9    later on whether there are any additional questions to be put in that

10    respect or whether the witness shall be recalled, whatever problem we'll

11    face then. We can't predict that.  But could you give us an indication on

12    whether on the part of the cross-examination not dealing with the

13    photographs, you think you could do it until 7.00 or... ?

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we are

15    going to finish by 7.00 and even before perhaps.  There is just one

16    question with regard to the new photographs and therefore it is -- it will

17    be necessary to call this witness later.  We only have one series of

18    questions concerning the new photograph

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed for this moment.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   Just very rapidly, sir, as not to waste anyone's time.  My

22    question was the following:  Do you know whether during the war there was

23    a policy of distributing various police stations, scattering them about

24    the city in order to avoid having people to move about too much?

25       A.   I am not familiar with any army or military posts that you refer

Page 7455

 1    to in your question.  I know that there was a Public Security station in

 2    Novi Grad and Novi Sarajevo and all the other Public Security stations

 3    and our police stations which are situated where they used to be in the

 4    past.  So this is the usual distribution of police stations, the structure

 5    that was in existence prior to these facilities.  I work in that sector

 6    myself so each police station and public security station has its own

 7    department for the criminal police and those are the people that I worked

 8    with.  But I don't know anything about the military structure or anything

 9    else.

10       Q.   Witness, with reference to each and every one of these incidents

11    that we've discussed, do you know whether your services, general speaking,

12    would have called the UNPROFOR services in order to work together?

13       A.   Once again, I don't have the competence to answer that question

14    because I am a member of the investigation team.  It was up to others to

15    make up the team.  And other people used to make the relevant calls.  The

16    head of the team would be the investigating magistrate, and in case the

17    magistrate would not visit the site in question, it would be led by the

18    inspector of the public security services in Sarajevo.

19       Q.   Witness, do you know whether on a regular basis there would be

20    reports filed and submitted to the investigating magistrate indicating the

21    results of the investigation?

22       A.   Well, the team leader, whether it was a magistrate or an

23    inspector, would be obliged to draw up a report.  It would be the team

24    leader's task, and such a report would be drawn up after the on-site

25    investigation.  As to what would happen later once my own report would

Page 7456

 1    come in, the ballistic expert report came in and all that, I suppose all

 2    that together would make up the file.  I am not really familiar with what

 3    the other --

 4       Q.   Was that the case for this particular incident in 1993 as far as

 5    you can tell?  There were two incidents, for both of them, then?

 6       A.   I can't remember exactly who drew up the report.  I can tell you

 7    what I did.  Once again, I believe that the investigating magistrate did

 8    not draw up the report.  It was the inspector, I think.

 9       Q.   So the so-called regular standard procedure of resorting to a

10    magistrate was not followed in this case?

11       A.   Not just in this case.  The regular standard procedure would be

12    for the team to be made of the investigating magistrate, the prosecutor,

13    the inspector, the forensic expert, and all the various experts, depending

14    on the needs.  And the actual procedure in case the investigating

15    magistrate would not visit the scene, the report would then be drawn up by

16    the inspector of the public security services or else somebody from the

17    police station.  I mean, there are relevant legal provisions laying down

18    the rules.

19       Q.   Well, then, thank you, Witness.

20            Now to come back to these incidents that we are discussing at the

21    moment, both in November and in January.  Do you know whether any measures

22    were implemented in order to get in touch with the opposite party and

23    organise a commission of the inquiry of international nature?

24       A.   I am not familiar with any of that.

25       Q.   On the other hand, can you confirm what you have just said, that

Page 7457

 1    is to say, that since energy problems were serious in Sarajevo, it was not

 2    always possible for you to be up to date when it came to the news, to

 3    listen to the media and so on?

 4       A.   That's correct.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, I have one last series of questions

 6    with reference to the document that we are just received, but only about

 7    the so-called mechanical side of things, what we normally call

 8    manipulation.  Let me just specify once again that we can't accept this

 9    document, but in spite of that, we have to ask these questions because it

10    is an even more important principle that it is at stake.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we submit 0282300 to the

12    witness.  Unfortunately, I have to hang on to my copy.

13            THE REGISTRAR:  Are you referring to Exhibit P3681?

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is exactly that.  Thank

15    you very much.

16       Q.   Witness, could you take a look at this document.  On the left-hand

17    side, can you see a pillar which is larger than the others, or rather a

18    column where there is a handwritten text?

19       A.   Yes, I do, I can read everything.  I don't know what precisely you

20    are interested in.

21       Q.   Yes, I am interested in the last square at the bottom of the page,

22    starting with the word "Dona" and followed by the number 9.  Do you see

23    that square, that box?

24       A.   Yes I do.

25       Q.   Fine.  I would like you to read for the sake of the transcript the

Page 7458

 1    words which precede that particular box, that is to say, what is included

 2    in the previous rectangular shape.  Can you read it because we do not have

 3    a perfect translation of that text -- or, rather, we don't have it at

 4    all.

 5       A.   It says "Trg Zavnobiha 18."

 6       Q.   No, that is not what it is.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you are asking to read the

 8    previous rectangular shape, you can either go upwards or to the left.  I

 9    don't know which one you wanted the witness --

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You are quite right.  I meant

11    the box which is -- which precedes this one to the left and it starts with

12    the words starting with a "B."  To the left of what I have just read.

13       A.   To the left of what I read earlier on?

14       Q.   No, to the left with regard to the word "Dona."

15       A.   That is what I did read.  To the left with reference to Dona is

16    the square Zavnobiha house number 18 below.

17       Q.   And then to the left?

18       A.   Yes.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that all these big rectangulars

20    start with the word "Dona."  That might create some confusion.  You are

21    asking the witness to read at the bottom line, and we start, Mr. Q, at the

22    left.  The first box is a 9, yes?  You agree?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  The second, the third, the fourth and then the fifth

25    box, would you please read that.  Is that what you intended him to read?

Page 7459

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the fifth one, that would be

 2    square 80.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   No, down below.  Go all the way down to the bottom of this

 5    document, Witness, and you will see a word starting with a letter "B."

 6    Can you find it?  It ends by "Kazani."

 7       A.   It's not one of my cases.

 8       Q.   I do know that it is not one of your cases, but in spite of that,

 9    I would like to kindly read this Bogusevac Jama Kazani.  I did not hear

10    the translation.  I would like it to be translated.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you read it slowly, the same word.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bogusevac Jama Kazani.  It appears

13    to be a name.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Thank you very much.

16            Witness, would you like to read down to the right of what you are

17    just read.  It starts again with "Dona," the day.

18       A.    "On the day of the 9th of November, 1993, at Bogusevac Jama

19    Kazani, 24 NN corpses were extracted, plus two heads."

20       Q.   "NN," does it not stand for unidentified?

21       A.   NN, yes, unidentified, unknown.

22       Q.   Thank you.

23            Witness, could you tell us what Kazani stands for?  Sometimes it

24    is associated with the caves of Kazani.

25       A.   Believe me, I do not know.  I cannot answer that question.

Page 7460












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Page 7461

 1       Q.   Fine.  If I tell you that Kazani was the mass grave where Serbs

 2    were buried, had been discovered, does it remind you of anything?

 3       A.   I know nothing about it.  I was not involved.

 4       Q.   You do know this area, where is it?  You know these documents?

 5       A.   Yes, this is the official register where we register our cases.

 6       Q.   Witness, I would like you to concentrate on the box down below

 7    that you have just read.  Don't you see under this number 24, other

 8    numbers or other indications, as it were?

 9       A.   What I read earlier on?

10       Q.   Under "24."

11       A.   I don't understand.

12       Q.   Don't you see, Witness, below the number 24 underneath there is a

13    trace of something having been erased or deleted.

14       A.   I can see some traces but I don't know what it is.

15       Q.   Thank you for this answer.  And one last question, Mr. President.

16    And we will necessarily have to come back to this.

17            Witness, do you know where the original of this page might be

18    found?

19       A.   This is the original -- well, the original would be in the

20    register at my office.

21       Q.   Does it still exist?

22       A.   It should.

23       Q.   Fine.

24            Are you familiar with this document?

25       A.   I was familiar with the register when I was entering my own cases,

Page 7462

 1    the reports pertaining to my own cases.

 2       Q.   Is this your own handwritten document?

 3       A.   Which one do you mean?

 4       Q.   The one up there, the case that you dealt with.

 5       A.   Not all of it.

 6       Q.   But to a certain extent?

 7       A.   Just the part at the right.  It is my handwriting in the

 8    penultimate section, in the upper part of the paper, and the rest of it, I

 9    dictated it to the colleagues that were doing up the text.

10       Q.   Have you yourself copied or photocopied this page?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Can you tell us when?

13       A.   I copied when I was preparing --

14       Q.   Fine, since I know nothing about your preparations, can you

15    nevertheless tell me when?

16       A.   It was perhaps a month ago.  I can't tell exactly.

17       Q.   So a month ago these documents still existed?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   I will take note of that, Witness.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has

21    no further questions.  I do apologise to everyone for this delay, and

22    we'll no doubt have to recall this witness for the reasons you are

23    familiar with, and we have no questions for the time being.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just confer for one single second with my

25    colleagues.

Page 7463

 1                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Q, you might have noticed that the document you

 3    were just questioned about has both the interest of the Prosecution and,

 4    perhaps for other reasons, but also the interest of the Defence.  It is

 5    tendered into evidence, copies of this document by the Prosecution, so we

 6    have to decide on that.  But in case we would decide that this document

 7    will be admitted in evidence, we just have a photocopy here.  And since we

 8    understand that the original is under your control, this Chamber gives you

 9    an order to keep it under your control and to have it available, the

10    original, for inspection by the Tribunal.

11            You did understand what I just said, that you copied it, the

12    original; you should keep it.  So we order you not to lose it, not to

13    destroy it, not to give it away as a birthday present, whatever.  It

14    should stay where it is and you should keep it under your control.  And

15    this is an order of the Chamber of the Tribunal, one that you are bound to

16    fulfill.

17            Do you have any questions in respect of that order?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.  I don't have the original.

19    It is a register of all the official activities situated in Sarajevo.  It

20    is not within my competence to take it out without the approval from my

21    superiors.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  I am not asking you to take out anything.  I think

23    you said that it was in your offices.  You don't have to take it out.  But

24    we order you to do everything in order to be sure that no one else takes

25    it out as well, so neither yourself or anyone else, and if necessary, we

Page 7464

 1    would expand this order to your superiors as well.  What we want to avoid

 2    is that we are later on in a position where questions are still there in

 3    respect of this document and whether the original was available.  Until

 4    very recently, copies could be made and could be produced in this court

 5    that suddenly the original wasn't there any more.  That is what the order

 6    was about.  You are bound by this order.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to state that it

 8    is not within my competence to keep or preserve this document in any way.

 9    If it is within your power to get in touch with my superiors directly to

10    make sure that that document is preserved, fine, but it is not up to me.

11    I believe that this register referring to that particular period of time

12    has been stored in the archives and it is only my superiors who can issue

13    any orders in relation to that register.  I am not in a position to get my

14    hands on it without their permission.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Q, what this Chamber knows is that you gave

16    testimony that you copied it, so that you have some kind of control.  And

17    whatever one of your superiors says that they want to take it away or to

18    do anything else with it, that you should tell them that you are bound by

19    an order of this Court to do whatever you whatever you can do to prevent

20    them.  If some of your superiors would think that -- well, if it would

21    disappear, that that would be a very serious matter and that would be

22    keeping away from this Chamber potential original evidence, or even worse,

23    destroying potential evidence which is -- which would result in contempt

24    of this Court.  Yes.

25            I apologise for the interpreters that we took seven minutes extra

Page 7465

 1    without asking your permission.  I should have done so.  But you also may

 2    have noticed it was a bit of an exceptional situation.

 3            May I just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at this very moment -- no,

 4    perhaps, first ask the witness to be guided out of the court and with the

 5     -- at this moment, you are not yet excused because there might be some

 6    additional questions from either the Prosecution or the Defence or the

 7    Judges.  So that means that you should return to this courtroom by

 8    tomorrow a quarter past 2.00.  And how much it would then will take, we

 9    will see whether you have to come back at perhaps a later moment, we will

10    also see.  But would you please come back tomorrow by a quarter past 2.00.

11            There is another order:  You should not get in touch with your

12    superiors or your colleagues in order to inform them about the order you

13    were given.  That might create additional problems.  Yes.

14            Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

15    courtroom.

16                          [The witness stands down]

17            JUDGE ORIE:  I make it quite briefly, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you

18    said you would like to come back to this document at a later moment.  I

19    do think you would like to do it right tomorrow after you further

20    inspected the document, or do you say, well, I'll see whether it will be

21    necessary to recall the witness at a later moment or whether I can

22    conclude the cross-examination by tomorrow on this document?

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let's adopt a

24    pragmatic approach because at any rate this witness will have to come

25    back.  If let's say we have him come back in a couple of days or in a

Page 7466

 1    couple of weeks, perhaps in that case he could bring along the original

 2    and that would perhaps be the best possible way to clarify certain

 3    matters.  I believe that we are ready - I can't confirm - I mean, we can

 4    continue the cross-examination tomorrow, but this other option would be

 5    useful as well.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I can imagine that you -- I think we have to

 7    consider your observation, but could we at least hear from you tomorrow by

 8    2.15 on whether you have any additional questions at this moment in

 9    relation to this document, at least alone whether there are other

10    questions to be put either to this witness or other witnesses in respect

11    of this document.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will have further

13    questions, that is certain.  We will see how much time is necessary and we

14    will let you know tomorrow morning, early.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stamp, I take it that you will need some

16    time for re-examination of the witness?

17            MR. STAMP:  I -- no, I don't think there would be much depending

18    on what is asked.  So far, there is hardly anything.  We note the

19    cross-examination of the document.  We can't see it being relevant to the

20    issues in this case.  There might be issues for other cases.  However,

21    that is a matter for a judgment.  I could say that we don't have much in

22    re-examination.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.  So what --

24            MR. STAMP:  May I --

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.  We are asking a lot from the

Page 7467

 1    interpreters.

 2            MR. STAMP:  There is one clarification, if I may ask about the

 3    order which you made.  If I understood it, it was indicated by the witness

 4    that he did not have control of these documents.  This is from a register

 5    which is kept in an archive and that his superiors would have to make a

 6    decision as to what happens.  And subsequently, I believe he was told that

 7    he could not inform his superiors of the order which the Court made.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  He should not get in touch with his superiors.  It

 9    might be quite clear to you what is the concern of this Court.  What we

10    try to achieve is to prevent that would happen what would be of major

11    concern to us, that it means preservation of evidence.  As a matter of

12    fact --

13                          [Trial Chamber confers]

14            JUDGE ORIE:  The order has been given by the Chamber and we will

15    discuss, we'll have some deliberations on what the consequences should be

16    because there have been suggested different solutions that the witness

17    would bring.  Perhaps he might not have the power.  But perhaps there are

18    other ways of inspecting, or at least to see whether originals can be

19    inspected.  And as you may have noticed, the concern of the Court is that

20    the original remains available in whatever form, whatever way, either for

21    the parties to inspect first or to be produced to the Court.  That is the

22    major concern of this Chamber.  Whether we need any additional orders to

23    give, you will hear that by tomorrow.  I also wanted to prevent the

24    witness to give a lot of phone calls this evening and that unfortunately

25    evidence might be lost.

Page 7468












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13   English transcripts.













Page 7469

 1            Then I take it that tomorrow -- may I take it that approximately

 2    half an hour with re-examination and, if necessary, questions of the

 3    Judges -- that we could spend half an hour on Witness Q and then proceed

 4    with the expert, Mr. Donia.  We will adjourn and I thank both the

 5    technicians and the interpreters for their patience.  We will adjourn

 6    until 2.15 in the same courtroom.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 8                          7.15, p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

 9                          the 18th, day of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.