1 Wednesday, 17 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
9 Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I thought I should make myself
11 available in case there are any outstanding issues in relation to
12 tomorrow's timetable of Mr. Donia giving evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, thank you for coming. I discussed
14 it with my colleagues and the Chamber would prefer first to deal with
15 Mr. Mehonic, who is waiting, then see whether there are any remaining
16 issues in relation to Mr. Donia's report, and then continue with
17 Witness Q. Yes.
18 Mr. Usher, could you please guide Mr. Mehonic into the courtroom.
19 MR. IERACE: Might I be excused, Mr. President, until that time?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although I expect that Mr. Mehonic will take
21 only not many minutes.
22 MR. IERACE: I will wait, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 WITNESS: RASIM MEHONIC [Resumed]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, can you hear me in a language you
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. I can hear you well.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, the Prosecution has asked leave to
5 recall you.
6 Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, it was only a matter
8 to retrieve from him his original certificate.
9 Further re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
10 Q. Mr. Mehonic, were you able to locate your original medical
11 certificate or that copy that you got from the Kosevo Hospital?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And would you be prepared to release it to us if you obtained a
14 certified copy from us?
15 A. I can't get the original then, if you take the original. Because
16 that's a permanent document for me, one that will last for a lifetime
17 MR. STAMP: I think, Mr. President, perhaps we had best ask for
18 another copy of that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mehonic, I think there are two ways of
20 doing it: If you would give us the original, you would receive from the
21 Tribunal a copy that is certified. That means that it is indicated on the
22 copy that this is the same as the original; otherwise, if you would give
23 us the -- if you would give us your original, just for inspection to start
24 with, and that we could then perhaps prepare a copy. Let me just confer.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 MR. STAMP: A third option, if I may actually propose it, is to
2 have him compare his original with the one tendered in evidence yesterday.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps have the original inspected by the
4 Defence as well and by the Chamber as well. Yes.
5 Mr. Mehonic, would you agree to give your original for inspection
6 to all the parties --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- we will return it to you and you could compare
9 your original with the copy already made, and perhaps questions are put to
10 you in this respect. So if you would give your original to the usher, and
11 I promise you, you will get it back. If you would please first give it to
12 the Defence.
13 Will you then please give it to Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We
15 shall comment on this perhaps later when we conduct the cross-examination.
16 Thank you.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, may I give the original to you so
19 that you can take care of a copy to be prepared for the witness and then
20 return the original -- no, the copy, to be prepared for us. Yes.
21 Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further to ask.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you have any questions in
24 particular to the document just shown, you may please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. To
1 tell you the truth, we don't have any particular questions apart for one.
2 Could we ask the witness whether he could explain to this Trial Chamber
3 why this document was manipulated, that is what we have called it? And
4 this seems to be the case because in the original there is something
5 marked in blue at the bottom of the document, and grey or black was used
6 for what has been inscribed on the upper part of the document. I am not
7 talking about the form, Mr. President. I am talking about the text that
8 was superimposed, that was added to the form.
9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, could you tell us why this document is
11 presented in two colours, has two colours?
12 A. I couldn't answer that question. The person who made the
13 document could answer that question.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Which document is
16 going to be tendered, all of them or the -- Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: I would propose that the document originally tendered
18 by the Prosecution received in evidence, we would do the minor amendment
19 to the translation in due course. The Court has asked to see the original
20 and the Court has had an opportunity to compare them. I am not aware that
21 there is any substantial difference between the original and the one that
22 the Prosecution tendered.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then you intend to tender a different
24 translation. That means P1517C.1 will be replaced by another
1 MR. STAMP: Indeed, and that translation would only delete the
2 date of discharge or the date inserted in the column for the date of
3 discharge. That would be the only change.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is clear to me.
5 Mr. Mehonic, may I ask the parties whether it is necessary to make
6 any additional copy or that P1517, which seems to be a copy of the
7 document we just saw. I don't think that there is any need to make an
8 additional copy, but if one of the parties would not agree, I would like
9 to hear it.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, but I would like it to be
11 clear and that the Prosecution also admits that the original, which was
12 filed, apparently has two different types of writing because we can see
13 this in the original but not in the copy. So if the Prosecution admits
14 that it seems to me there were two types of printing on this document,
15 that is fine. But if that is not the case, then we need a colour copy, I
16 think, in order to be able to locate this problem subsequently.
17 MR. STAMP: I am afraid I am not in a position to make that
18 concession, Mr. President. Perhaps I could have a look at the original
19 again to see if I could identify what my friend is referring to.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to is that
21 part of the entries are in black, while the box on "diagnoza"
22 and "epicrisis" are in blue.
23 MR. STAMP: Well, the Prosecution is prepared to concede that a
24 number which is apparently written by hand, written with a blue pen, is in
25 blue, whereas on the photocopy, it is in black. The signature on the
1 doctor appears to be in blue, where, on the photocopy, it is in black.
2 And There are other printed writing on the original document which is in
3 blue print whereas they are identically copied on the photocopy, except on
4 the photocopy, they are in black.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But whatever the importance of that might be,
6 whatever -- perhaps it is good to have a colour copy, since the
7 Defence raised the issue, and then for the future, we always be sure on
8 what is in blue and what is in black. So if the Chamber would prefer to
9 have a coloured copy tendered, then so it should be made then this
10 afternoon. I think it would be possible.
11 MR. STAMP: Very well. So we will have a colour copy prepared.
12 May I just ensure that that is possible?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Registry could do it, if necessary.
16 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could ask the Registry to do it. We
17 could, but we could not guarantee it to be returned today.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please return it to the Registrar.
19 Mr. Mehonic, the Registry will, in approximately one hour, one
20 hour and a half, prepare a colour copy of the document and then the
21 original will be returned to you again. If that is all right with you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is appropriate.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, may I then draw your attention that
25 the ERN number seems to be added on the copy that it's entered this time,
1 that whenever the colour copy is ready, that we give it to you so that you
2 can fill in whatever ERN number should be on the copy.
3 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehonic, you have been in the courtroom only for
5 a very short period this afternoon and you know that we would like to see
6 the original of your discharge letter. But let me return to your
8 You have answered all the questions of the parties. You have also
9 answered our questions. We also have noticed that it was painful for you
10 to be taken back to the moments which I assume would be among the most
11 painful in your life. We are aware of that. We noticed it. You will
12 understand that we are grateful that you have taken the effort to come to
13 The Hague to answer the questions of the parties and the question of the
14 Judges, because I hope that you are aware that it is important for this
15 Chamber to hear the answers to these questions from those who have been
16 present at that time and at these places. So we thank you very much for
17 that, and we hope you have a safe journey home again. I think the --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness and Victims Unit will help you recover the
20 original. That will be done during the next break that will be in
21 approximately in one hour. Thank you very much for coming again.
22 Mr. Usher, will you please escort Mr. Mehonic out of the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, we will decide on 1517C once we
2 have received the -- and when the Prosecution has tendered the coloured
3 copy of it. Is there anything else? No, there is nothing else. It was
4 the only document used.
5 That means that we could now briefly pay attention to whether
6 there are any remaining issues in respect of the documents attached to the
7 report of Mr. Donia or whatever pages. Yes, one moment, please.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: And, meanwhile, the technicians might work on the
10 preparation of the protective measures for Witness Q.
11 Whom of the parties may I invite to speak first on the issue of
12 the documents in relation to Mr. Donia's report?
13 MR. IERACE: I am happy to update the Trial Chamber,
14 Mr. President. As I understand it, in various requests made by the
15 Defence for disclosure of further material, firstly in respect of the
16 copies of Oslobodjenje and other publications, there is one issue of that
17 newspaper and an issue of another publication still to come. We have also
18 located a copy of -- tape-recording, rather, of the speech by Radovan
19 Karadzic which the Defence has requested. We are making a copy of that.
20 We will disclose both a tape-recording and a transcription into B/C/S and
21 a translation into English. I anticipate that the Defence will receive
22 that material this afternoon. As far as I am aware, Mr. President, they
23 are the outstanding issues in relation to the documents
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just check with the Defence whether they agree
25 that these were the outstanding issues.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Partially, Mr. President.
2 Partially. Partially, because although we have received certain documents
3 mentioned by the Prosecution, it appears that as far as the last ones are
4 concerned, we received them at a very late date, that is to say either
5 this morning -- or I can see here a date. It says the 17th of April, so
6 that was today. And we think that it is not possible to submit such a
7 quantity of documents in one language a few days or a few hours before
8 such an important hearing as to the case with this witness. As far as the
9 cassette is concerned, first of all, it was said that such a cassette does
10 not exist. It is now a pleasure to see that it does exist and it shall
11 soon be produced, but if I have understood everything correctly. But we
12 are lacking time. We don't have enough time to prepare our Defence.
13 That's all.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two matters: Firstly, I did not say
16 yesterday or on any other occasion that the tape did not exist. I said I
17 would check to see whether we had a copy and made it clear that the
18 footnote did not refer to a tape but, rather, a transcription.
19 Secondly, my friend complains that the material is being provided
20 to him late. The newspaper items were requested by the Defence by letter
21 dated the 13th of April and they were provided, in the main part,
22 yesterday and the day before. The Defence has had the report since the
23 25th of February so they have sought this material very late.
24 Secondly, or further in relation to that point, we have made
25 clear that this material is open source. It was available to them to
1 obtain in any event, but rather than make an issue of it, we have simply
2 provided it to them. Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I suggest that we proceed as far as we can
5 come, and if there is any specific moment where you say we can't proceed
6 for specifically this or that reason or that there is some information in
7 the material which has been provided to you recently - I am not expressing
8 any view of the Chamber on whether this was an obligatory providing of
9 this material or whether it was courtesy - but if we come at a point where
10 you say for this and this reasons, we are handicapped [Real-time
11 transcript read in error "you are handicapped"] specifically, please let
12 the Chamber know so that we can see what to do under these circumstances.
13 But we have taken notice that you feel in a general way handicapped by
14 receiving late these copies.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
16 this suggestion. The Defence shall take note of it, if necessary. But as
17 far as the material is concerned the material that has been presented as
18 open source material, this is mostly -- these are mostly newspapers which
19 were published in Sarajevo and which weren't distributed
20 internationally, and it is obviously very difficult for the Defence to
21 find newspaper articles which come from certain issues since all of
22 this took place in Sarajevo and these newspapers weren't distributed
23 elsewhere. So I don't think it is quite correct to say that this material
24 was publicly available.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'd say in general terms it was, but you said it was
1 not easily accessible to us.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. President, for the transcript, I think in
3 page 10, line one, it says: "We are handicapped," and I think that you
4 said, "You are handicapped."
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you say that you are handicapped. Whether the
6 Chamber is handicapped is for ourselves to decide and to solve.
7 Mr. Stamp is the Prosecution then ready to resume the examination
8 of Witness Q? And may I ask the technical booth that every measure, that
9 means facial distortion, voice distortion, is effective at this very
11 So it is confirmed by the technical booth that everything is
12 effective. It is now up to us to use our microphones in such a way that
13 it remains effective and also up to us to not mention any name or any
14 other identifying details.
15 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Witness Q.
16 MR. IERACE: Might I be excused, Mr. President?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: WITNESS Q [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, as I still call you, can you hear me in a
22 language you understand?
23 Thank you. Please be seated. It is perhaps unnecessary but I
24 nevertheless remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration
25 you gave yesterday.
1 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
4 Q. Witness Q, yesterday we were looking at the photographs which you
5 said you took, and we had looked at photograph 1 and photograph 2, which
6 were taken -- these photographs were taken of the impact sites in front of
7 number 3 Cetinska Street.
8 Could he be given back that Exhibit P2172?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist.
10 Do you have the page already in mind, Mr. Stamp?
11 MR. STAMP: Page 1 and page 2.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please put page 1 on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. You had indicated that the arrows in photograph on page 1 and
15 photograph on page 2 --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but we still
18 sometimes have this problem with the translation. P21312 312 was what I
19 heard in the French translation and here it says P222 -- I mean, we will
20 need this to be reflected correctly.
21 MR. STAMP: The document, for the record, is P2172, which has been
22 handed to the witness. And that has been confirmed by the Registrar:
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP:
1 Q. Now, the impact site in photograph 1 and photograph 2 are on a
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness at all.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters have some difficulties in hearing
5 you. It would be the centre microphone. Perhaps if you come a bit closer
6 to the microphone in the middle.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Perhaps switching on the microphone wouldn't be
8 a bad idea.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I hear that switching on the microphone
10 would be a good idea as well. Yes, it doesn't help if you come closer if
11 it's switched off. Would you please speak a few words to see whether the
12 interpreters can hear you correctly now?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Not a word.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It is still a problem. Perhaps we switched it off by
16 THE INTERPRETER: It is fine now.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It is okay, please proceed.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. Those arrows in photograph 1 and photograph 2 point to an impact
20 site in the middle of the road, is that correct?
21 A. It is correct that they represent the site of the explosion. As
22 to whether it is exactly in the middle of the road, I am not certain. But
23 it is certainly on that road.
24 Q. And is there a building at 3 Cetinska Street?
25 A. The way this photo is taken, the Cetinska building number 3 is
1 supposedly behind the back of the photographer, that is to say I, myself,
2 when I was taking this picture.
3 Q. Are you referring to photograph 1 when you say that?
4 A. The picture I see on the screen, I believe that is picture number
6 Q. Could you please look on the ELMO and confirm that you are
7 speaking of picture number 1.
8 A. Yes, that's picture number 1. Behind my back more or less would
9 be the residential building number 3.
10 Q. Thank you, that is what I wanted to enquire into.
11 This residential building was about how far from the impact site
12 that you photographed?
13 A. Perhaps from the site of the explosion to the building itself --
14 well, it was probably an approximate distance of 20 metres. I can't tell,
15 but about 20 metres.
16 Q. Could you have a look at photograph on page number 3 of the
17 booklet. Could you just read what you wrote on that photograph.
18 A. It says that photo number 3 represents the traces of the explosion
19 of the shell on the asphalt in Cetinska Street next to the building number
21 Q. And on that photograph there is a yellow line or a yellow
22 instrument across the middle of the photograph. Could you say what that
24 A. On the photo can be a part of the tape that we use to place on the
25 traces of the explosion so that we were able to take measurements
1 afterwards, basically, in order to make it visible on the photograph what
2 the size of the area was because we all knew the dimensions of that tape.
3 I mean, we didn't actually use it to measure anything; we just put it on
4 the photo in order to make it clear what the dimensions were. Today we've
5 got better equipment and, at the time, we didn't have anything else so we
6 made do with what we had.
7 Q. And could you have a look at photo number 4. Could you read what
8 you wrote under that photograph.
9 A. Photo 4: "Traces of blood in the vicinity of the spot where the
10 shell exploded."
11 Q. Can you recall which impact site this was? Was it the one at
12 Cetinska street or Klara Zetkin Street?
13 A. I am not certain, but if I look at the sequence of these pictures,
14 it is probably by the first explosion site.
15 Q. Could you have a look at photo number 5, please. Could you read
16 what you have written below that photograph.
17 A. Photo 5: "The place in Klara Zetkin Street next to the house
18 number 4 where the shell landed."
19 Q. Is this house number 4 another residential apartment block?
20 A. I don't understand what you mean by "residential area."
21 Q. I didn't say area, I said block. May I repeat it? Well, let us
22 have a look at the photograph. You have an arrow on the photograph. What
23 does that arrow point to?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 A. The arrow indicates the place of the explosion.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And in the background of that photograph, do you see some stairs
2 and then entrance to a building?
3 A. Yes, I do. That's the building behind the site of the explosion.
4 Q. And is that -- what type of building is that?
5 A. A multi-storey building. There was a whole row of multi-storey
6 buildings. That means that they were residential buildings, several
7 floors and several entrances. It is possible that two entrances may be
8 seen on this picture, but it is a bit dark here on the screen so I can't
10 Q. If you wish to, you may have a look at the copy on the ELMO. If
11 it could remain there, though. Could you have a look at photo number 6,
12 please. Is that a close-up photograph of the impact site in front of
13 Klara Zetkin Street?
14 A. Yes, that is the tracer that was seen on picture number 5 which
15 was marked by an arrow on picture number 5. So it is the same photo but
16 from a lesser distance.
17 Q. And the impact site was, from these photographs -- would you agree
18 with me that the site was on the sidewalk in front of the building, on the
19 edge of the sidewalk in front of the building?
20 A. Judging by the damage, we can see that it was on the edge of the
21 pavement and part of the road, so that's just the edge of the pavement.
22 Q. And could you have a look at photo number 6. Photo number 7, I
23 beg your pardon. Could you read what you have written below that
25 A. Photo 7: "Traces of blood and tissue and children's sleigh."
1 Q. Could you now have a look at photo number 8 and tell us what you
2 have written below that photograph.
3 A. Photo number 8: "Child's cap in the snow and traces of blood in
4 the background."
5 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. Usher, you may remove that document.
6 Q. In respect to this incident and the work that you did there, did
7 you file a report?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And did you sign it?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. And would you be able to identify that report from or a copy of
12 that report?
13 A. Yes, I could.
14 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, may he
15 be shown document P2171B?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately,
20 there is interference and we can't hear the speaker again. I think
21 somebody's mobile phone is interfering with it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear everyone although very -- at a low level.
23 Is it the witness you can't hear or is it someone else?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I can hear everyone but the booth
25 can't hear me.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please test.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Okay, now it is fine.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please then proceed, Mr. Stamp.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The reason why I decided to
5 stand up was that the interpreters did not mention the number of the
6 document. So for the transcript, I think it would be a good idea to
7 repeat it.
8 MR. STAMP: Indeed I will. P2171B.
9 Q. Could you have a look at that document, please. Do you see on
10 that document a copy of your signature or your signature photocopied?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Is that the report you filed on the 22nd -- I beg your pardon. Is
13 that the report you filed in respect to the incident of the 22nd of
14 January, 1994?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 MR. STAMP: Could the witness, with your leave, be shown a
17 document which is recalled, it is already in evidence, document P2171?
19 JUDGE ORIE: That is without the B?
20 MR. STAMP: Without the B.
21 Q. Is that a ballistic report signed by Borislav Stankov?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And if you look in the second paragraph of that document, do you
24 see [redacted]
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must
1 intervene once again because I am afraid that these questions might damage
2 the protection of the witness, and also for the transcript, the
3 term "forensic expert," should perhaps be checked out in French.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: I think the expression I used -- well, the expression
6 in the English transcript is "forensic officer." I am quite sure that the
7 French expression in respect to "forensic expert," can be checked and will
8 be corrected with them or their tapes.
9 Q. But may I just say to the witness, Witness, I am not asking you to
10 say or to read what you see or to say your name. Do you see [redacted]
11 [redacted]; yes or no?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this report is a ballistic report for the shelling incident
14 that you have just testified about, that is incident on the 22nd of
15 January, 1994?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, I propose to show to
18 the witness document 2171A.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Could you remain to help him, Mr. Usher, if need be.
21 Could you remain to help him.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just for the purpose of the
23 transcript, the number in 19-3 is not the number is marked on the
24 document. One digit is missing, a "1," I believe.
25 MR. STAMP: Yes, for the record, the number which has been handed
1 to the witness -- the number of the document which has been handed to the
2 witness is 2171A, number 2171A.
3 Q. Could you compare those two documents, that is document 2171A and
4 document 2171?
5 A. As I can see, they appear to be the same.
6 Q. Could you --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We should clarify things in
9 the transcript for the future because there is a great deal of confusion.
10 It is 217 and we need to make everything clear because there is a
11 confusion here.
12 THE INTERPRETER: And could the speaker please speak into the
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: And I think that somebody referred to a "C"
15 document, one of the booths, but I don't know what it refers to.
16 If the Prosecution could just refer to both of these documents
17 clearly so that there is no confusion in the future.
18 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. I will try.
19 Q. Now, could you please --
20 MR. STAMP: And please help him, Mr. Usher.
21 Q. Have a look at document P2171. Document P2171. On the second
22 page of that document, do you see that some of the lines in the first
23 paragraph are blurred and illegible or almost illegible? Please answer,
24 "yes" or "no."
25 A. They are illegible; it is not very clear.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you now look at document P2171A. [Real-time
2 transcript read in error "P217"].
3 Would you agree with me that the -- that document which --
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for the transcript again, the last number,
5 Mr. Stamp mentioned was P2171A. It appeared a different number in the
6 transcript. Are there any technical problems in reproducing these
7 numbers in the transcript because then I would like to know. Because
8 when I repeat the number, it does not appear in the transcript either.
9 So I mentioned P2171A. I'll try to repeat it: P2171A. May I ask
10 specifically to those who are reviewing the transcript overnight and may I
11 invite the parties to check whether, after having listened to the audio
12 tape, whether the numbers appear in a good order in the transcript and let
13 me do it this way.
14 The first document Mr. Stamp asked the witness to have a look at
15 was a previously already admitted document of which the translation is
16 partly in black because of the bad legibility of that document.
17 The second document Mr. Stamp mentioned is a document of which the
18 witness said that it appeared to be the same document, and I think the
19 parties would agree that this is a party [sic] which appears to be the
20 same, but legible in its entirety. If the parties could agree on that,
21 then we could continue.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to
23 verify something. I think we could agree on this point, as I think that
24 we could agree that this clear document could have been submitted to us at
25 a much earlier date, and to the Trial Chamber too.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you will just leave me one moment.
2 Yes, if it is any different, I will hear from you,
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I also said that it "appeared" to be. I didn't say
4 that it is the same document, but it appears to be the same document.
5 I wonder whether, if numbers are mentioned, whether the court
6 reporters could do it by words, rather than by numbers.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Could you, Mr. Usher, take away document P2171 and leave the
11 JUDGE ORIE: I specifically thank the court reporters for helping
12 us out of the problems.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. Witness, could you now return to document P2171B, which is the
15 report you signed. In that document you refer to the place and time of
16 the act that you investigated, and could you read what the reference is.
17 A. "Klara Zetkin Street and Cetinska number 3, 23rd of January, 1994,
18 at about 1315 hours."
19 Q. At section number four of your document --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, if I may interrupt you. I heard "23rd of
21 January" and that is also what appears in the transcript. Could you
22 please clarify this matter.
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. Could you repeat what you are recorded for the place and time of
25 the incident?
1 A. "Klara Zetkin Street number 4, Cetinska number 3, the 22nd of
2 January, 1994, at about 1315 hours."
3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Stamp, microphone, please.
4 MR. STAMP: I apologise.
5 Q. And at item number 4, the description of the criminal act, could
6 you please read what you have recorded there?
7 A. "The 22nd of January, 1994, at about 1315 hours, [from the west
8 Nedzarici] two mortar shells fell, the calibre of which was 120
9 millimetres. They fell at Klara Zetkin street number 4 and the other fell
10 at Cetinska Street number 3. On that occasion, several people were killed
11 and -- "
12 Q. Could you pause there, please. We will get to the casualties
14 You just had a look at the document, the forensic -- the ballistic
15 report signed by Borislav Stankov. In that report, it indicates that the
16 impact sites on Klara Zetkin Street and Cetinska Street, from their
17 examination, were caused by 82 millimetre mortars. Is that correct from
18 what you see on the report of Borislav Stankov?
19 A. Borislav Stankov is a forensic expert. I was dealing with another
20 issue. He is an expert, too, and on the basis of traces, he decides, he
21 comes to a conclusion as to what projectile was used. So that his
22 findings shall be recorded and shall be taken to be valid before mine is,
23 which was written immediately after the event itself. Without having made
24 any investigations, without having questioned anyone, but on the basis of
25 what I myself saw.
1 Q. Borislav Stankov is a ballistic expert; is that correct?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that this question is
4 a leading question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... about whether
6 Mr. --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In general, Mr. President, we
8 sometimes contest the authenticity of the -- the quality of the experts
9 for some persons, in the case of some persons who signed certain
11 JUDGE ORIE: That is a different matter compared to whether it is
12 in dispute that he is known as perhaps an expert in a certain field. But
13 if you insist, then I will ask Mr. Stamp to --
14 MR. STAMP: I will rephrase.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. On the document signed by Borislav Stankov, could you read the
18 first paragraph or the heading of the document? That is P2171A.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Stamp, microphone, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Record of forensic investigation
21 carried out at the site where shells fell in Cetinska Street and Klara
22 Zetkin Street and also in the park between Klara Zetkin Street and the
23 Rade Koncera Square, written by Borislav Stankov, a ballistics expert with
24 the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo."
25 Q. Thank you. Were you a ballistic expert at the time?
1 A. No, I wasn't.
2 Q. You said you wrote -- or may I just ask him a leading question.
3 On what basis did you write two-120 millimetre mortar shell?
4 A. I wrote this under the description of the act itself, that's under
5 paragraph four, number four. And here on the second page under number six
6 paragraph -- the fifth paragraph.
7 Q. Yes. Why did you write 120 millimetre mortar shell?
8 A. When I went to the site where these two shells exploded, I
9 investigated the site, I determined what had happened. I took some
10 photographs. First of all, there is a little inspection and then the
11 photographs were taken. And at that site I found here, it says, "the tail
12 of the shell." The situation was such that I had to investigate the
13 entire site myself. So in usual case the custom was for several of us to
14 go and investigate such sites, but in this case, I was on my own. And I
15 found that shell tail, the tail of a 120 millimetre shell, and it is on
16 the basis of that that I wrote this report after I had carried out the
17 on-site investigation. And the measurements and other things, they were
18 carried out by the ballistic experts.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the French transcript, it
21 says "localization" instead of "location." I think there was a mistake
22 there. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What the Judges sometimes do,
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is to write down the page number and line number and
25 then the word as you see it in the transcript and the word you had spoken,
1 because this might not create whatever confusion, and we would be grateful
2 if you would assist those who are preparing the transcript and, at the
3 same time, not interrupt unnecessarily the examination-in-chief.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. You had reached to reading about the casualties on the item four
7 of your report. Could you read for us that part of your report.
8 A. "On that occasion, several people were wounded and Subasic Admir
9 died, [born in 1986]; Nermin Rizvanovic, [date of birth 1981]; Jasmina
10 Brkovic [date of birth, 1989]; Indira Brkovic," in brackets, I can't see
11 the exact year; "Mirza Dedovic ; Daniel Jurinic, ."
12 Q. And were these the fatalities from the incident that you
13 discovered as a result of your investigation?
14 A. These are the names of the people who died and the names that I
15 obtained after I had carried out the on-site investigation itself.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 You said you lived in Alipasino Polje at the time and the
18 community of Alipasino Polje was also a part of your police district. Can
19 you tell us please, generally speaking, about the shelling that occurred
20 in your district.
21 A. Do you mean for the entire period of time or just for this case?
22 Q. Okay, I'm a little bit vague there. You said the area was not
23 shelled for about 26 days before this incident. Do you know why the area
24 was not shelled?
25 A. I couldn't answer that question. I don't know why it wasn't
1 shelled. I was very glad that there was no shelling. I was glad that
2 that was not repeated.
3 Q. Now, prior to the beginning of this 26 days before the incident,
4 was the area -- to what degree was the area shelled?
5 A. I can't remember exactly how much shelling there was because -- I
6 can't exactly remember how much shelling there was. But there was also
7 four because there was also very nearby. Vojnicko Polje, Alipasino Polje,
8 which was divided into areas where exactly the shells fell, and they fell
9 in a discriminate manner in these areas. I couldn't say exactly. I can't
10 say whether they fell in those areas and I couldn't say how many shells
11 fell. But in the entire area of Alipasino Polje, I am sure that 26 days
12 prior to this incident there was no shelling. So there was a period of
13 peace right up until this shelling. And as to what happened after that
14 shelling, I can't remember because shells continued to fall after this
16 Q. Do you know if there was any local arrangements between the two
17 armies at around that time?
18 A. No. I was just doing my job and I was happy to say that there was
19 a peaceful period. Whether some agreement had been reached about the
20 peace, I don't know. I can't remember whether there was electricity at
21 the time to enable people to follow the news and the media. Whether there
22 was some sort of agreement, I really couldn't answer that question
24 Q. Now, when you -- as a resident of Alipasino Polje, you told us
25 that the shelling was sometime indiscriminate in the area. Could you from
1 your experience determine sometimes where the shells were fired from?
2 A. Sarajevo was a town that was surrounded. Our greatest fear in
3 that area was -- our greatest fears concerned the Nedzarici area, the
4 Nedzarici settlement, the Lukavica settlement. That is an area which is
5 behind the Mojmilo hill, the Mojmilo Brdo, and part of the airport
6 settlement which is right next to the Nedzarici area. As I wasn't always
7 working in Alipasino Polje but also in the town during the war period,
8 Dobrinja was also an area in which I worked and which I carried out
9 certain on-site investigations, and it was very difficult to move from the
10 Alipasino Polje area to Dobrinja because that part was an open area and it
11 was easily visible from the Nedzarici area. On certain occasions I had to
12 wait for night to fall. Sometimes I would even sleep over in Dobrinja.
13 So Nedzarici was directly visible from my sight and Lukavica area was not
14 visible, but it was possible to shell from that area.
15 Q. May I just take you back to what I was asking you about. From
16 your experience of living in Alipasino Polje, could you sometimes
17 determine from where shells were fired?
18 A. I personally was able to determine that.
19 Q. How could one do that? How were you able to do that?
20 A. I was unable to determine the direction from which the shell came,
21 but it was very difficult to determine the actual place from which the
22 shell was fired.
23 Q. How would you do that?
24 A. It was possible to do so on the basis of the traces that would be
25 left after the explosion of the shell.
1 Q. You, in your report, if you have a look at it, please, and that is
2 P2171B, on item 4 you indicated that the shells came from Nedzarici. Can
3 you see that?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. On what basis did you write that? Why did you write that? Did
6 you receive any information to that effect?
7 A. To determine the direction from which a shell came, I was able to
8 determine that myself on the basis of the traces that I would discover at
9 the site. On that basis, it was possible to determine that the shell had
10 come from the west, and Nedzarici is in that direction. Nedzarici is to
11 the west and that is why I wrote down Nedzarici in brackets.
12 Q. You said that you were not at home in Alipasino Polje at the time
13 of this incident, but you were at your office and you were called there.
14 Had you ever been at home when the -- when anywhere near you was shelled
15 from Nedzarici? I beg your pardon, had you ever been at home in Alipasino
16 Polje where any position near where you were was shelled from Nedzarici?
17 A. I experienced quite a bit of shelling but I can't remember exactly
18 whether some of the shelling came from the Nedzarici area.
19 Q. You said you can't recall exactly whether some of the shelling
20 came from the Nedzarici area. Can you recall anything about any other
22 A. Do you mean some cases for which I carried out the on-site
23 investigations or cases in which I was either in my flat or perhaps in the
24 streets, in squares, and there was shelling in the surrounding areas?
25 Q. Yes, I am asking about your experience living in Alipasino Polje.
1 A. I lived in Alipasino Polje and I experienced quite a lot of
2 shelling, but while I was in my flat because that was the safest place to
3 be if I was not working. And in my opinion, it would be pointless to go
4 to the site of the explosion itself since, from my personal experience,
5 and this was possible to see on the basis of the on-site investigations,
6 it was very dangerous to go to see where the shell had come from, from
7 which direction, because it was possible for other shells to be fired.
8 Q. From your flat or the area where you lived in Alipasino Polje, did
9 you hear shells being fired?
10 A. Yes, it was possible to hear them and I did hear them.
11 Q. Could you tell us if you can, some of the places where you have
12 heard shells being fired from?
13 A. Nedzarici was the closest place from which you could hear shells
14 being fired.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 Now, apart from the investigation of the 22nd of January, 1994,
17 you conducted, as you indicated, many other investigations. I would like
18 to take you to one in particular.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, before doing so, we are close to a quarter
20 to 4.00 and it seems that you enter a new area. Would this be a suitable
21 moment to have the break or...
22 MR. STAMP: Indeed it would.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And can you give us an indication how much time you'd
24 still need for the examination-in-chief?
25 MR. STAMP: Approximately ten minutes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Q and all the others in this courtroom, we will adjourn until
3 a quarter past 4.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
5 --- Upon resuming at 4.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
7 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
8 Q. Before the interval I indicated I wanted to take you to another
9 investigation, but before I do that, may I ask you just a couple further
10 questions about your experiences living in Alipasino Polje.
11 You said that Nedzarici was the closest place from which you could
12 hear shells being fired. Could you say under the control of which party
13 in the conflict was Nedzarici?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, apparently
15 there is no translation. There is some technical problem.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... of Mr. Stamp or
17 not of the witness?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, slowly --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I do hear.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The problem seems to be solved.
22 Mr. Stamp, I think that is the moment to resume.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
24 Q. Firstly, could you tell us which party to the conflict, was it the
25 Bosnian Serb army or the army of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
1 that controlled the community of Nedzarici?
2 A. Nedzarici was controlled by the army of the Republika Srpska.
3 Q. You said you could hear shells being fired from Nedzarici from
4 the vicinity of your home in Alipasino Polje. Could you describe what
5 you mean.
6 A. Very often while I was living in Alipasino Polje and in the course
7 of shelling, prior to the explosions in Alipasino Polje, we could hear
8 muffled sound and we usually concluded that it was a sound of those shells
9 being fired, the shells that later on landed onto our area. So there is a
10 big difference between that sound and the actual explosion.
11 Q. Taking you now to the 10th -- to the 9th, I beg your pardon, of
12 November, 1993. Did you investigate shellings in Alipasino Polje which
13 occurred on that day?
14 A. I carried out the on-site investigation of the 9th of November,
15 1993, but I don't know exactly what particular case you are referring to.
16 Q. Well, could you tell us then how many cases of shelling were
17 there on the 9th of November 1993 in Alipasino Polje that you was
18 involved in the investigation?
19 A. I carried out the on-site investigation for two shells and I can
20 remember those two cases. As to whether there were any more shellings, I
21 don't know. But I do remember that I carried out two on-site
22 investigations for two cases of shelling.
23 Q. Where did these two cases occur? Can you remember the street
24 names of the places where these shellings occurred?
25 A. The first on-site investigation was in Alipasino Polje "B" Faza is
1 the name of the district, and the street is Trg Zavnobih.
2 Q. And the other on-site investigation was where?
3 A. The other on-site investigation was in an area called "C" Faza,
4 Trg Rade Koncara -- Rade Koncara Square.
5 Q. Could you tell us from your investigations how many shells landed
6 at Trg Zavnobih?
7 A. One shell landed.
8 Q. And did it land in the vicinity of any particular building or
10 A. The shell landed on the pavement behind the building on Zavnobih
11 Square, where there was a school. Those were the premises of a primary
13 Q. And from your investigations, can you say whether or not there
14 were any casualties as a result of that shelling?
15 A. In as far as the Zavnobih Square investigation is concerned, when
16 the shell exploded in the vicinity of the school, I do know that a
17 teacher died and two -- and three children as well. As to the number of
18 casualties, the number of survivors, I don't know exactly. I believe
19 there could have been about 20, perhaps even more. Anyway, this was the
20 task of other people on the team. After the on-site investigation, they
21 had to mark in their reports as to how many casualties there were and
22 whether they were lightly wounded or heavily wounded or whatever.
23 Q. From your investigations, can you say whether school was in
24 session at the time of that shelling?
25 A. When I entered the building where the teaching was taking place,
1 judging by the objects found on the premises, there must have been lessons
2 going on because I found traces of clothes on the chairs, books; there was
3 a blackboard, so it seemed to indicate that teaching was underway and then
4 it was interrupted.
5 Q. Did you take photographs of the site?
6 A. I made a certain number of pictures, but from the outside, since
7 the building itself where this make-shift classroom was situated was
8 surrounded by cement blocks and it was dark in the classroom itself, so as
9 to be able to make the pictures on the other side, and I did not have a
10 flash on my camera so I could only take pictures of the traces I found
11 outside around the site of the explosion. And for technical reasons, I
12 was unable to take pictures on the inside. I could just describe it on
13 the basis of what I saw.
14 Q. Did you bring those photographs with you when you travelled to
15 The Hague?
16 A. Yes, as in the case of all the other cases, so as to refresh my
18 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I
19 tender to the witness Exhibit P3681.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. Mr. Usher, could you please
21 assist Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: There may be a slight misunderstanding. I have just
23 been told that the reproductions were just made today and it may well be
24 that my friends are just receiving a copy of this document. I don't know
25 if they were served with it before.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
2 Everything is perfect. We did have a copy. We have had it for five
3 seconds, perhaps seven or eight.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That means, Mr. Stamp, that if the Defence would ask
5 more time to prepare for cross-examination, that it would only be fair to
6 give it to them.
7 MR. STAMP: We would not object.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You would not object.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, the thing
10 is, we have copies which are partly legible. I don't know if these are
11 the same ones. But generally speaking, the Defence, which is only made up
12 of two members, would like to discuss all that within the team. This is
13 not the first time, although we don't probably have records of every
14 single case, but we are given these documents at the eleventh hour. As a
15 consequence, we would like to be able to consult with all the members of
16 our team, and if the Bench authorises us to do so, we will have the
17 witness come back at an appropriate time. Once we have had the time to
18 prepare, not in a normal manner but perhaps in a satisfactory, partly
19 satisfactory manner.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's see where we go. I
21 make one observation. The Chamber will not accept the claim that every
22 member of the team has always seen all documents, but that is not the same
23 as that the Defence should get a reasonable time to study photographs that
24 have been newly introduced. At the same time, we understand from the
25 Prosecution that they only recently received these photographs. Am I
1 right in my understanding, Mr. Stamp?
2 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So let us first continue the
4 examination-in-chief and we'll see how much time you would need and the
5 Defence would need to prepare for cross-examination on this specific
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember
8 correctly, this witness was here yesterday and if he came from Sarajevo
9 yesterday, he must have had those pictures yesterday, and no doubt the
10 Prosecution was preparing the witness the day before yesterday and they
11 must have seen the documents and the pictures the day before yesterday.
12 So it's just a matter of simple courtesy. I believe the Prosecution has
13 been familiar with this for some time now and it is not by accident that
14 we are being given the documents only now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, when did you first indicate to the Prosecution
16 that you had these photographs and when did you first show to them, to the
17 representatives of the Prosecution?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday. Yesterday morning, to be
20 JUDGE ORIE: You showed them for the first time or you indicated
21 that you would have them yesterday?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both. I told them I had them and I
23 showed them to them because they were with me when I first came in.
24 MR. STAMP: As I indicated, Mr. President, there is a time lapse
25 between obtaining them and having them reproduced in this manner. I had
1 asked that as soon as they were reproduced they should be handed to the
3 JUDGE ORIE: It was five minutes ago, as far as I understand.
4 MR. STAMP: Indeed, it was five minutes ago.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would it not have been -- may I just ask you a
6 question. Don't you think that it would have been appropriate that even
7 if you had to wait for 24 or 36 hours to have them reproduced, to
8 immediately indicate to the Defence or to ask the assistance of the
9 Chamber to speed up, because if you were aware of new photographs by
10 yesterday morning, it should not be the case that the Defence only hears
11 about the photographs as you have heard. I make a distinction between
12 hearing about the existence of and having given access to copies of it.
13 Do you agree with me that it is not appropriate to wait until five minutes
15 MR. STAMP: I agree and I do apologise.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We will see what consequences we have to draw out of
17 this as far as the respect of the rights of the Defence are concerned.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. These documents, these photographs that you are looking at, have a
21 quick look through them, please. Are those four photographs that you
22 brought and delivered to us yesterday?
23 A. Yes, these are the reproductions of those photographs.
24 Q. The last two pages of the document that you have, please don't --
25 please have a look at the last two pages of the documents that you have.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Are those black and white reproductions of the same photograph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you see writing on the three of those black and white
5 A. Yes, below the photographs.
6 Q. Could you have a look -- well, before we get to that -- who made
7 those writings?
8 A. Myself. It is my handwriting.
9 Q. Could you have a look at the writing below the photograph with the
10 number 02182301 and could you read it for us.
11 A. Photograph number 1: "Zavnobih Square up until house number 18
12 where the shell landed approximately the east end side of the building."
13 Q. And which building are you referring to there?
14 A. I mean the building where there was this make-shift classroom on
15 the ground floor. Do you want me to explain any further? It is on the
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I do apologise. Since my
20 learned friend is asking about the pictures, is asking questions about the
21 pictures, I would like the pictures to be placed on the ELMO because
22 otherwise we don't know what the discussion is all about.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp did indicate the numbers, the numbers that
24 are both in the bottom left, bottom corner of the photographs, and are
25 also stamped on it. We have to be very careful to put them on the ELMO, I
1 am afraid, especially in view of the photograph with the numbers ending in
2 300. But if it could be done -- but can't you follow it if the numbers
3 are clearly indicated?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The problem is this:
5 We've received a single copy and I believe that it would be a good idea
6 for General Galic to follow this, and he is the only one who doesn't have
7 the pictures in front of him. For the reasons you are familiar with, we
8 only have one set. So if we could get a supplementary set of copies, we
9 won't ask for the ELMO.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We could temporarily provide a copy for
12 General Galic.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, indeed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So perhaps even without putting it on the ELMO, we
17 then could proceed, Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Indeed. But I was going to ask just now the witness
19 to put the photograph that we are referring to on the ELMO.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Which one would that be, Mr. Stamp?
21 MR. STAMP: 02182301.
22 JUDGE ORIE: 301, yes. And then the -- I take it that you want
23 the colour copy to be placed on the ELMO?
24 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. STAMP:
2 Q. Now, could you have a look at that document to your left and point
3 to the building which is a school.
4 A. This is where the school is behind these blocks, so the classroom
5 itself is surrounded by cement blocks on all sides. What can be seen on
6 the picture is the eastern side of the building.
7 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness points to the concrete
8 structure in the foreground to the left of the photograph.
9 Q. Could you point to the spot, if it is there, where the shell
11 A. It is here and I am indicating the explosion site. It can be seen
12 on the picture.
13 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness points to some markings in
14 approximately the middle of the picture which is behind a dark area which
15 appears to be the entrance of that structure he says is a make-shift
17 Q. That dark area on that photograph of that building in the
18 foreground to the left, is that the entrance to the school?
19 A. Do you mean this dark part here?
20 Q. Indeed.
21 A. That is a passage between -- between these slabs. The slabs are
22 leaning against the roof of the building itself. It is a protruding part
23 of the building. You would pass through here and there was a door here.
24 It was the entrance to the building itself. Because this classroom was
25 made -- it was an improvised one and it was a -- a business office was
1 turned into this classroom. So this dark part in the photograph, it is
2 just a passage to that entrance to the classroom.
3 Q. Could you have a look at the black and white reproduction of your
4 photographs and have a look at the writings under the photograph bearing
5 the number 02182302. And could you read it, please.
6 A. "Photograph 2, site where the shell fell."
7 Q. And could you have a look at the writing below the photograph
8 numbered 02182303 and read it, please.
9 A. "Photograph 3, blood on the site beneath the slab."
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STAMP: The document may be removed.
12 Q. Before we move on from here, can you tell us in a sentence what
13 was the first photograph with the writings on it, photographs of an area
14 where there are -- there was a certain amount of writings on it.
15 A. That is a photograph that wasn't shown on the ELMO.
16 Q. Yes, what is that photograph? And don't tell us what the writings
17 are but tell us in a sentence what that photograph is about.
18 A. That photograph shows part of the official registry in which the
19 case was recorded. It says what happened, where it happened. It is in
20 this registry that we have to make entries about what happened exactly,
21 and we have to keep this in our premises. We have to note the exact date
22 where it happened, when, when the case was concluded, et cetera, et
24 Q. Thank you.
25 You, that day, the 9th of November, 1993, you investigated any
1 other scene of shelling in Alipasino Polje?
2 A. I did. Yes, there are.
3 Q. And did you take photographs of that site?
4 A. I did, yes.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. STAMP: Before I sit, may I just indicate to the Court that we
7 have copies of those photographs available. We will not proceed to
8 produce them, but they have been made available to the Defence and I
9 understand the Defence have already used them. So at this stage, that
10 concludes my cross-examination. May it please you, Mr. President, that
11 concludes my examination-in-chief.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp, I was just trying to understand your
13 last words. I will just re-read them. You say the Defence already used
14 them. That is what I did not fully understand, as a matter of fact.
15 MR. STAMP: I think the Defence used them to -- in the
16 cross-examination of a previous witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: These same photographs?
18 MR. STAMP: Not these. There is another set in respect to the
19 other investigation --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I was just a bit confused about what photographs you
21 were referring to. Thank you then, Mr. Stamp.
22 I am not going to ask whether the Defence is ready for
23 cross-examining the witness, but I will ask whether they are ready to
24 start the cross-examination of the witness.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please, Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we are ready to start the
2 cross-examination. Yes, we are ready to start the cross-examination, Mr.
3 President. First of all, before starting the cross-examination, I see
4 that the document that we have been provided with under 0282300, appears
5 to -- appears to be a document that as the document -- as the Defence says
6 has been manipulated in that the last vertical rectangle again appears to
7 contain numbers which have been effaced. I have no other comments to
8 make, but I am certain that there is an original somewhere and that
9 perhaps one day it should be found.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are either now or in the later
11 stage, of course, entitled to cross-examine the witness also on these kind
12 of details.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Willingly, and I would like to
14 add that these are not details in the view of the Defence.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day. Can you hear me?
17 A. Yes, I can hear you.
18 Q. Witness, I will go back to some of the things you spoke about just
19 a minute ago. You told us that you had lived in what is called Alipasino
20 Polje; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Witness, you lived there for the entire period that we are
23 interested in, 1993, 1994 -- 1992, 1993, and 1994?
24 A. Yes, I lived there during that period.
25 Q. Witness, is it true that on the 15th of November 1995 you gave a
1 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Can you remember it in general? Can you remember the broad
4 outline of this statement?
5 A. I think that I could remember everything.
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, isn't it true that in the statement you said
7 that you had taken photographs and that they had been made available to
8 the Prosecution?
9 A. I said that I had taken photographs and that they would all be
10 made available to the Prosecution.
11 Q. Witness, we are talking about the 15th of November, 1995; is that
13 A. Very well.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I suggest that
15 we should perhaps present the document of which we have a copy, but which
16 apparently the document -- the witness signed as a statement. But before
17 doing that, I think I should mask something that we have written on it.
18 Q. Witness, do you understand English?
19 A. A little.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Did you also sign your witness -- your statement in the English
22 version, did you also sign the English version of your statement?
23 A. I can't remember. If you show it to me, I will tell you whether
24 the signature is mine.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I remind you to switch off
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 your microphone whenever the witness --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course, thank
3 you. I apologise.
4 Mr. Usher, I need your assistance, please.
5 Q. Witness, I am going to show you your statement. Could you just
6 tell me whether you can see your initials there?
7 A. Yes, I can see them.
8 Q. Very well. I am going to ask the usher to bring the document
9 back to me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please return the document to
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will return to the English
13 document. That will make it possible for us to be more direct.
14 Q. Witness, you said that you had been a policeman and you said that,
15 before that, you were a student. Do you remember saying that?
16 A. You said that I stated that I was a student?
17 Q. The Prosecution asked you a question yesterday and they asked you
18 what you had been before becoming a policeman, and you said that you were
19 a student and that you also had a private business. Is that correct? Do
20 you remember saying that?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Thank you. My question is: What did you study?
23 A. I studied engineering.
24 Q. What degree did you obtain?
25 A. I didn't finish my studies.
1 Q. You told us about a private business. What was the nature of that
2 business? Could you please tell us that.
3 A. It was a commerce and services.
4 Q. Could you be more precise, Witness?
5 A. We would repair office equipment and we would sell such equipment,
6 so cash registers, equipment that is needed for offices.
7 Q. Witness, were you involved in business during the war?
8 A. I wasn't involved in that kind of business during the war because
9 I changed my place of residence, and everything that I had before the war
10 remained at some other location, through no fault of my own.
11 Q. Witness, a minute ago you spoke about or, rather, yesterday you
12 spoke about investigations that you had carried out with regard to snipers
13 and to sniper shells. Do you remember talking about this?
14 A. I remember carrying out investigations into sniper shooting.
15 Q. You talked -- you told us about the necessity of having two
16 traces to determine the direction. Do you remember speaking about this?
17 A. Yes, I remember that I spoke about this, about the fact that when
18 you investigate sniping activity, I said it was necessary to have two
19 traces in order to determine exactly where the bullet came from.
20 Q. Thank you for that answer, Witness.
21 Do you know the name of Mr. Kucanin? Are you familiar with this
23 A. Yes, I know the name.
24 Q. I will return to that a little later. I am going back to the
25 subject of projectiles. Within your service, were there any technical
1 margins of error that were used when you would determine the direction
2 from which a shot came?
3 A. No, I didn't have such a device in order to determine areas when
4 shots were fired.
5 Q. Witness, when you say "I," should we take that to mean the police
6 as a whole, those who cooperated with you?
7 A. No, just myself.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you know whether your colleagues had such
9 rules, rules which would include margins of error or such technical means?
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you for that answer.
12 I am going to talk about Mr. Kucanin. You said that you knew
13 him. Is this someone you would see? And I am talking in the past.
14 A. Do you mean whether I remember him?
15 Q. Exactly, and whether you saw him in the past.
16 A. Yes. Yes, in an official capacity.
17 Q. Witness, could I ask you when you saw Mr. Kucanin for the last
18 time or when you spoke to him for the last time?
19 A. I can't give you the exact date, but I think that it was about a
20 month ago.
21 Q. Witness, was that after he had returned from The Hague?
22 A. I think so. Yes, it was. It was.
23 Q. Very well. Witness, could you please tell us what you spoke
25 A. Mr. Kucanin had told me that he had been here and that he had
1 made a statement. He wanted to meet with me and he wanted to sit down
2 and have a chat. We had this meeting after quite a long period of time
3 because I think that I hadn't seen him for a few years. I can't tell you
4 exactly how long it had been since I last saw him. Kucanin did what he
5 did and he doesn't have the same job any more. I continued to do my job,
6 and believe me, the meeting was very brief. We didn't sit down anywhere
7 but we only spent a little time together in the street. I know where we
8 met. I know the exact place where we met, if you are interested in this.
9 Q. That might interest everyone present here, but before talking
10 about that, could you confirm whether he called you in your office? Is
11 that correct?
12 A. No, I didn't call him to at the office. We met quite my chance.
13 I had other work at the time, other duties, and I met him at that place
14 where we met. And he then told me his story. I didn't know that he had
15 been here. That's when he told me he had been here. But he didn't go
16 into the details. He didn't tell me any details about that when we met.
17 Q. Nevertheless, you spoke about what Mr. Kucanin might have said
18 before this Trial Chamber?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What did Mr. Kucanin tell you about the proceedings here in
21 general and about his testimony?
22 A. He told me that he had been here in the courtroom and he said he
23 had given a statement. There wasn't enough time for him to tell me
24 anything about that, but he did mention that we should meet. However, I
25 didn't call him and I didn't have time to meet him after that.
1 Q. You are quite categorical on this issue.
2 A. Well, yes, I am just telling you the truth.
3 Q. Very well. With regard to this matter, do you know what the Zrak
4 factory is?
5 A. I know where it is and know more or less what was produced in that
6 factory. But I was never there; I never entered that factory. I've
7 passed by it and I know where it is located.
8 Q. Could you tell us where it is located and what it produced?
9 A. It is in the area. I think that it also belongs to the Novi Grad
10 municipality area because I carried out a few on-site investigations over
11 there, too. It is a factory which existed before the war broke out. I
12 think that before the war, it produced -- and what I am saying now is what
13 I heard. I think they produced optical devices for measurements of some
14 kind. Whether it operated during the war, I don't know; I was never
15 there, neither before the war, nor during the war, nor after the war.
16 I've passed by it, yes, because there is a road that passes by the factory
18 Q. Very well. Witness, we are going to show you a plan of Sarajevo,
19 which we could put on the ELMO. And could you please -- could you please
20 show us the location in question on this plan, perhaps with the assistance
21 of the usher. Thank you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: D96.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, thank you.
25 Do you recognise what you can see on the screen, that is to say
1 part of the town of Sarajevo?
2 A. Yes, I recognise it. But I can't see it very well.
3 Q. Why can't you see it well? Could we perhaps enlarge the image?
4 Can you see now?
5 A. Yes, fine.
6 Q. Could you pinpoint the location we were talking about just a
7 minute ago.
8 A. The location, yes, I can. But the building, not exactly, but I
9 could point to the location more or less.
10 Q. Witness, I would be grateful if you could indicate this on the
11 ELMO that you have on your right, on the map that is on the ELMO.
12 A. This is the area here, the exact place.
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, the usher is going to show you -- is going to
14 give you a colour -- a pen of a concern colour in a minute. And could you
15 please encircle this area with the pen.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you, Witness.
18 We are going to continue with this map. Witness, do you know
19 school called Blagoje Parovic, I think?
20 A. I have heard of it, yes. I think it is in the area of Novi
21 Sarajevo, but I don't know where it is exactly. I think it is a primary
22 school, but believe me, I don't know which street it is in or which area.
23 Q. Could you point to on the map that you have on your right, could
24 you point to the zone in which this school was, as far as you can remember
1 A. I can see the area of the municipality of Ilidza and Novi Grad on
2 the map and I think that the school was in the area of Novi Sarajevo but I
3 don't know where exactly. There was also a street called Blagoje Parovic,
4 but believe me, I don't know about that school.
5 Q. Very well, Witness. Thank you for that answer.
6 But you said you had heard of this school. Where, when and how
7 did you hear about it?
8 A. Well, I was born in Sarajevo so I had heard of that school. Then
9 I had heard of other schools which I never visited. And well, having
10 heard of it, I don't necessarily have to know exactly where it is. What I
11 mean to say well, Blagoje Parovic, but does the name of this school mean
12 that it's in the Blagoje Parovic Street or that the school is called like
13 that? It is a familiar name. I believe it was a primary school. But I
14 have nothing of significance to be able to tell you in relation to that
16 Q. Do you know of a school which was called Pavle Goranin?
17 A. Yes. I am not certain but I think it is in the Otoka settlement.
18 Q. Could you show it on the map.
19 A. I don't think the Otoka settlement can be seen on this map.
20 Q. Fine. Perhaps we will show you the second part of the map in a
22 Witness, are you familiar with a school called Petar Dakic?
23 A. No, I am not.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 This brings me back to the first two names I have mentioned
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 earlier on. Do you know whether in one or the other, or in both of these
2 establishments, there was a team of snipers from the BH army?
3 A. I am not familiar with it and I have not carried out any on-site
4 investigations in those schools.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you know in your capacity as police officer that
6 the BH army also had a so-called sniper unit? When I say "Oza," that
7 means just as well as the other units, some other units.
8 A. As a police officer, I am not familiar with the structure of the
9 army or what they had. But perhaps as an armed force they might have had
10 companies organised like that, but I am unable to tell you anything about
11 the matter.
12 Q. Witness, do you know whether the so-called BH army also had
13 specialised units for mortar, that is to say specialised mortar
15 A. Once again, I was a police officer and it is an altogether
16 different job. My job was completely different so I really can't answer
17 this question.
18 Q. Thank you. For what reason were you not mobilised to join the
20 A. I joined the police force.
21 Q. Witness, do you know where the Cenex building is?
22 A. Cenex had several buildings. I don't know which one you mean.
23 Q. The one which is closest to the school I have mentioned earlier,
24 the first school.
25 A. Cenex had a building -- well, I don't know if it was the entire
1 building. It was a building on pillars and it was in the area of Novo
2 Sarajevo municipality, near the bakery, supposedly. Is that the building
3 you have in mind?
4 Q. Could you show us on the map where this Cenex building near Stup
6 A. I can't show you this Cenex because it is not on the map.
7 Q. Well, then, thank you, Witness.
8 Witness, are you familiar with the name of Mr. Sefer Halilovic?
9 A. Yes, I am familiar with the name.
10 Q. Who was he, Witness?
11 A. For a while, he was the commander of the BH army.
12 Q. Witness, have you ever been under orders of that person?
13 A. Never. I have never met this man in person.
14 Q. Witness, when exactly did you join the police force and when did
15 you start work as a police officer?
16 A. I joined the police force in 1993, and as to the exact date when
17 I got the letter telling me I could start work. I can't remember. I
18 believe it was in the second half of 1993 when I was informed of my having
19 been accepted in writing.
20 Q. Witness, could you remind us of the date when the hostilities
21 first started in Sarajevo.
22 A. It was in April 1992.
23 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.
24 You've mentioned that you joined the police force in the second
25 half of 1993. What were you doing between April 1992 and the second half
1 of 1993?
2 A. I spent 1992 staying with my cousins, with my family, as a
3 refugee from Dobrinja IV, up until the point where I had to register with
4 someone. And it was in January of 1993 I joined the police force. That
5 was when I could start the seminar for this job. And upon completion of
6 that seminar, I got the official letter and as of that date, I am
7 registered as an active policeman. In other words, I couldn't have been
8 considered as an active police officer before finishing the course.
9 Q. Very well.
10 So if my understanding is correct, you went on a six-month course
11 starting in January 1993 and then you joined the police force for all
12 intents and purposes; is that correct?
13 A. It is correct that I went on a six-month course. I can't tell you
14 exactly whether it started in January or not. There was some preparation
15 going on. I can't remember the exact date when we first started but it
16 lasted for barely six months.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness.
18 What did you do between April 1992 and January 1993?
19 A. For the most part, I was trying to survive, and I did say I was
20 staying with relatives, I was a refugee.
21 Q. Was there not a general mobilisation order very soon after the
22 start of the hostilities in Sarajevo?
23 A. I don't know what the exact date was. I know I've tried
24 everything because I suffered a great deal at that time when I had to
25 leave my original residence from before the war, not just myself, but my
1 entire family, were trying to simply survive and make ends meet. As to
2 this mobilisation as to whether it was a forced one, I can't talk much
3 about that. I can tell you what I myself did. In the time I joined the
4 police force, it was extremely difficult to even be able to qualify for
5 the job, which I still hold.
6 Q. I do understand, Witness, but is it not correct that there was
7 proclamation according to which all men of a certain age had to report to
8 the closest barracks?
9 A. I am not familiar with it and I never reported that -- well,
10 actually, when I first got there, I had to register at the settlement
11 where I was living, the municipal offices. As to where those lists were
12 taken, I don't know.
13 Q. Witness, have you collaborated in any way with what is normally
14 called the Civil Defence?
15 THE INTERPRETER: And could the speaker please speak a bit closer
16 to the microphone. Thank you.
17 A. Yes, of course I had to. I had to collaborate with the Civil
19 Q. Were you incorporated within a unit, not of the Civil Defence as
20 it appears in the transcript, but the Territorial Defence, TEO? That's
21 the Serb acronym, TEO.
22 A. No, I did not belong to any of their units.
23 Q. Thank you for this answer. I would now like to pursue another
24 line of reasoning. In your capacity as a police officer, you said you
25 travelled both within this area that is of interest to us and in other
1 parts of Sarajevo. Is that correct?
2 A. It is correct.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you have a car?
4 A. You mean now?
5 Q. No, at the time.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you have an official car?
8 A. I did not.
9 Q. I mean, could your service make available cars in case you needed
10 them on the job?
11 A. In very rare cases, I did carry out on-the-spot investigations and
12 I used any vehicles.
13 Q. Why do you say, "on extremely rare occasions"?
14 A. My job was in the centre of town. Since the entire area of the
15 city had been shelled, that was the decision made within my department to
16 have us work close to where we lived. And since at the time I lived in
17 the area of Alipasino Polje, the best thing was for me and a couple of my
18 colleagues was to work in that area. So for a certain period of time, I
19 spent also in Novi Grad, at the Novi Grad police station, but my permanent
20 job and my original department was in the centre of town.
21 Q. Very well, thank you. Just very briefly, where did you get fuel
22 and how?
23 A. I never got it anywhere. When investigations were carried out, I
24 used the official car from the police station of Novi Grad, whereas my
25 department belonged to the security service. If I needed a car, I would
1 have to get in touch with Novi Grad people and ask them to take me there
2 or for me to be given a vehicle. But I never had to get petrol. If there
3 was a vehicle available, I would use it. If there were none, I couldn't
4 use it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, looking at the clock, if you would
6 find a suitable moment somewhere in the next five minutes.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the break, you mean?
8 JUDGE ORIE: I would have a break for 20 minutes. I would like to
9 have a break for 20 minutes starting somewhere in the --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can break now, thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn until five minutes to 6.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
13 --- Upon resuming at 5.59 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, I would like us to continue with some further questions.
17 I would like to come back to the two squares that you have mentioned
18 earlier, that is to say the one which was called Rade Koncara Square and
19 the other one which I believe was called Zavnobih. Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Witness, do you know whether in one of those situations the army
23 had the means to manufacture arms, I mean any workshops where those arms
24 could have been manufactured?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Witness, do you know whether in one or the other of those two
2 squares there were any canteens that could have been used by the armed
4 A. I do not know of any premises used by the army in that area.
5 Q. Witness, do you know whether in one or the other of those two
6 squares the army had any administrative offices?
7 A. You see, soldiers travelled throughout the city, and exactly as to
8 where their buildings and premises were, I can't tell you. There were
9 some premises possibly someplace, but I can't tell you where exactly
10 because I do not know.
11 Q. Witness, you lived in Alipasino Polje. Did you at the time used
12 to see soldiers in the area of Alipasino Polje frequently?
13 A. Yes, I did see soldiers.
14 Q. Were they armed and in uniform or armed without uniform, or did
15 they appear in any other way?
16 A. For the most part, they were uniformed. Even I had that uniform
17 because there were no other clothes available. And we called it work
18 clothes, not uniforms. There were quite a few people wearing those
19 clothes who did other jobs, and I can't tell you exactly whether they were
20 armed or not. There were quite a few people who moved about carrying
21 guns. And as to any heavy weaponry, I didn't see anything.
22 Q. When you say people walking around town carrying arms, you mean
23 uniformed people or civilians without uniforms?
24 A. For the most part, uniformed people carried arms.
25 Q. But since you said "for the most part," I assume that there were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 also civilians who were armed. Is that correct?
2 A. The clothes, the work clothes, the uniforms, everything was worn.
3 As to everybody wearing uniforms being a soldier, I don't know, I can't
4 remember. I can't remember about people wearing civilians clothes. At
5 the very beginning, there were no uniforms at all and people would wear
6 their own clothes and they would carry arms as well.
7 Q. Thank you for this reply.
8 Witness, I'd like to submit to you -- but in order to speed things
9 up and simplify matters, I have photocopies. So I would like to submit to
10 you two documents which have already been mentioned on another occasion,
11 D55 and D81, and we have got a couple of copies for everybody concerned.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So if I may, Mr. President,
13 we can have them circulated with the assistance of the usher, who I can
14 see is rushing towards me.
15 THE REGISTRAR: D81, I have as a diagram of Markale market. Is
16 that the one you wish?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. There must be an error
18 there. Could you give me these papers back? They were prenumbered. We
19 are going to check it out on the list. D81, according to our reference -
20 but perhaps it is a mistake - should be an order coming from 102nd
21 Motorised Brigade from January 1993 -- sorry, the 4th of June, 1993. If
22 that is not on the list, we are going to submit it under a new number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] May I see it?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is available to you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I have not carefully listened. Do you remember the
1 date on which --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My colleague is looking for
3 it. We have found the number, and if it had not been produced before, we
4 are going to do it now. The date when it was first produced should be the
5 1st of March, I believe -- or the 3rd of March, for D55, at any rate. But
6 now I am looking through the list of documents. I haven't checked it out
7 myself. Yes, indeed, there is a mistake there. I am going to try to
8 check what the correct number is. As a matter of fact, I would like to
9 start with number 55, and the rest of it is going to be checked.
10 Q. Witness, it is not D81, but apparently D54. The
11 second document, I mean. And we will see it a bit more clearly later.
12 Could you take a look at D55, please? Witness, do you have the
13 document in front of you?
14 A. D55, yes, I do.
15 Q. Is it in a language that you can understand? Is it the English
16 translation you have in front of you or is it the original?
17 A. I have the English document in front of me and I have got a copy
18 enclosed to this translation, something in my own language.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... continuing.
21 Could we just have a look at the original for one second.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is there a problem,
23 Mr. President? Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, would you agree that this document mentions the command
25 of the 102nd Motorised Brigade?
1 A. I don't know. I can't agree with that because all I can see is
2 that in English it says, "the command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade." I
3 can see that on the paper in front of me.
4 Q. Witness, can you take the text in Serbian? Take the Serbian
5 text. Do you have it in front of you?
6 A. I have this here. It says: "The command of the 102nd Motorised
8 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you please have a look at the
9 fourth line which follows item one, so the fourth line after the
10 "communications centre," after what is written down as "communications
12 A. Yes, I can see it.
13 Q. Have you found the sentence?
14 A. The third or the fourth line?
15 Q. The fourth line underlined.
16 A. Do you want me to read it, please?
17 Q. Yes, please do.
18 A. It says, "At the command post of the 1st Infantry Brigade in
19 A. Polje, Alipasino Polje connected to the post office in Sarajevo all the
20 time and the main staff of the B --
21 Q. Could you please repeat the abbreviations, Witness, the ones at
22 the end. Just the abbreviations.
23 A. "The command post of the 1st Motorised Brigade, the main staff of
24 the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
25 Q. Witness, would you agree that in the area of Alipasino Polje there
1 was a command post, what one usually calls a command and control post?
2 A. I can't agree with that. All I could do was read this here. I
3 don't know anything about that.
4 Q. Very well.
5 Witness, do you know where you can find the command post of the
6 102nd Motorised Brigade?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, could we please present
10 the document with the number D97. Could the usher please assist us.
11 Q. Do you have the document in front of you?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Do you have it both in the Serbian version and in the English
15 A. I have it in a language which I can understand.
16 Q. Very well. In that case, could you tell us what you can see under
17 item seven in this document?
18 A. It says, "the Stela base, [Zavno BH Square 17]."
19 Q. Witness, what was the distance between this number 17, how far was
20 this number 17 from the incidents which you mentioned a while ago?
21 A. You mean the case that I -- well, this is an uneven number, an odd
22 number. I don't think that the numbers have changed to this day. I don't
23 know how far it was from number 17. It should be on the other side of the
24 square. I know that square. I have passed through it quite often and I
25 still do. But I don't know exactly where the entrance at number 17 would
2 Q. Doesn't Stela refer to a restaurant?
3 A. I think it's a restaurant.
4 Q. Very well. In your capacity of a policeman who visited the area,
5 were you able to pinpoint this restaurant?
6 A. I am not an observer. I was just carrying out an investigation
7 when I got there. But Stela, I think that there was a cafe there, it was
8 a cafe called Stela before the war, too.
9 Q. Witness, how far is it from the cafe that you know and the site of
10 impact approximately?
11 A. Between 50 and 100 metres. I couldn't be precise.
12 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer.
13 Witness, you told us that you yourself had found the stabiliser;
14 is that correct?
15 A. In this case?
16 Q. No, I am talking about one of the cases that you investigated and
17 you said that you found the stabiliser at the site; is that correct?
18 A. I didn't personally find it.
19 Q. Who found it?
20 A. I can't answer. I can't remember exactly.
21 Q. Does this concern the incident for which you said you were one of
22 the first to arrive at the site?
23 A. Well, usually, as I was closest to the site, I was in the Novi
24 Grad Public Security Station, I tried to get there first before the other
25 members of the team because the other members of the team came by car from
1 the town. I think that if I had found that part of the shell at the site,
2 it would have been photographed. But it is possible that it was given to
3 a member of the investigations team, and on that basis I mentioned that an
4 explosion had been -- had occurred and I mentioned what the calibre was.
5 Q. Witness, did you yourself see this stabiliser?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Who was it given to as far as you know?
8 A. That stabiliser, I took that stabiliser and it was put away in the
9 department in which I worked and this is what I stated in my report.
10 Q. Did you have the opportunity of collecting what one calls mortar
12 A. In that case, in the case which I took over that stabiliser, well,
13 investigations were carried out in such conditions that it was quite
14 possible for there to be renewed shelling so that the shrapnel, obviously,
15 it wasn't -- they weren't at the site of the explosion itself. They would
16 be dispersed. In most cases it was necessary to investigate the site
17 itself. Finding the shrapnel was an especially dangerous task because it
18 was possible for the shelling to recommence and that would have put in
19 danger the lives of the investigators and the members of the investigating
21 Q. We are going to provide you with document number 98 with regard to
22 this matter.
23 THE REGISTRAR: D98, English translation, D98.1.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, do you have this document in front of you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Witness, is this one of the incidents that we have spoken about
3 when you were examined by the Prosecution?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you remind us which incident is in question?
6 A. This is an incident that took place on the 22nd of January, 1994.
7 The Cetinska and Klara Zetkin streets were shelled, that is to say
8 Cetinska and Klara Zetkin.
9 Q. Witness, I think I heard you say just a minute ago that given the
10 conditions that prevailed, you had to work on your own at the site. Is
11 that quite correct?
12 A. No, it is not true that I worked alone at the site. I was only
13 able to visually inspect what was at the site.
14 Q. Were you alone when carrying out this inspection?
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. You don't know whether there were other specialists with you,
17 ballistic experts or specialists of another kind?
18 A. Yes, later on. But before then, I got there before them with
19 colleagues from the Public Security station in Novi Grad who were also
20 present at the on-site investigation.
21 Q. Could you tell us how much later after you the colleagues arrived
22 there, the colleagues who are mentioned in the report that you have in
23 front of you?
24 A. I can't remember exactly when the team arrived and assembled.
25 Q. Could you confirm that these persons were present at the site
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with you?
2 A. The persons who have been listed here, yes, they were at the site
3 with me.
4 Q. Could you tell us who the special expert was?
5 A. His name was Borislav Stankov.
6 Q. Witness, just a minute ago with regard to the questions concerning
7 ballistics, you said that you could, generally speaking, identify the
8 direction from which shots came, given your experience?
9 A. Only on the basis of the traces left by the explosion of certain
10 projectiles. It is only on this basis that it is possible to determine
11 the direction.
12 Q. Witness, didn't you say that - I think in your statement of the
13 15th of November, 1995 - that with regard to the incident that we are
14 talking about, the direction of the shell in ballistic terms came over the
15 positions, the shell came over the positions held by the Serbian army but
16 also over the positions held by the so-called BH army. Do you remember
17 saying this?
18 MR. STAMP: I think that question could only be fairly put if my
19 friend directs the witness to which of the shelling incidents that he is
20 speaking about. The witness has testified to investigating four impact
21 sites and perhaps three shelling incidents.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was I right in understanding,
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you were talking about the incident of the 22nd of
24 January, 1994? Yes. That became clear to me from the line of
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. Thank you.
3 Q. I will go back to this question. Witness, is it true that you
4 said the direction from which the shell came or what you thought was the
5 direction from which the shell came, it could have, in technical terms,
6 come from both of the camps because the trajectory included two possible
7 sources, two possible origins: both the Serbian party, the so-called Serb
8 part, and the so-called BH part? Is that correct?
9 A. I said that on the basis of the traces found, one would determine
10 the direction and in the settlement I already mentioned was already in
11 that direction. I didn't mention the place from which the shell was fired
13 Q. Witness, didn't you say that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you going to read because that
15 very often avoids a lot of confusion.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, maybe a little later, but
17 I am going to address this matter without reading. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... pause after the
19 question so that the Prosecution is able to follow what part of the
20 statement you are referring to.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly. Gladly.
22 Q. Witness, didn't you say that this was a technique used by the
23 Serbs: They would position themselves near the positions of the Muslim
24 forces in order to create confusion?
25 A. I can't remember.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am going to
3 read out something. I want to check that there are no problems with
4 regard to the names in the statement and I would like to be authorised to
5 do so in order to avoid any confusion.
6 Could you allow me 30 seconds, Mr. President. Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. STAMP: And since it appears that my friend wishes to confront
9 the witness with something in his statement, I would ask that the
10 particular incident where any comment might be made about in that
11 statement is given to the witness. If the witness is to be confronted
12 with a statement or a part of a statement, then that particular incident
13 should be told to the witness so that the witness may be able to put it in
14 context. I am quite sure that my friend won't put anything to the witness
15 out of context.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you are more or less asking me to give
17 instructions to Mr. Piletta-Zanin. What I did, as a matter of fact, is
18 that I asked Mr. Piletta-Zanin to at least pause and perhaps ask the
19 witness to wait for a second so that you can check whether there finally
20 the question is such that you would have to object against it.
21 MR. STAMP: Very well.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to quote what
24 the witness said. I would just like to verify this, if we put the
25 document on the screen, there aren't any names that could be problematic.
1 This might take a little while. Thank you.
2 Q. I am going to read what you said, Witness, on the 15th of
3 November, 1995 and I am going to read it because you spoke of a general
4 tactic and this concerns both the incident of the 9th of November, 1993 of
5 which you have spoken here in Alipasino Polje and it also concerns other
6 incidents, including the one that occurred in January.
7 I am going to read this out in English. [In English] "The BSA to
8 fire shells from close to our positions to confuse the investigators."
9 [Interpretation] Witness, do you remember having said this?
10 A. If that is what it says in my statement, then I did, but I can't
11 remember the exact date -- details. After all, that was seven years ago.
12 Q. In other words, Witness, if according to your statement you said
13 that such and such shell came from a position which was close to so-called
14 Muslim positions or a so-called Muslim position, would you agree that
15 theoretically, it was also possible -- it would also be possible for this
16 shell to have come from a Muslim position?
17 A. I don't want to agree with anything in particular. All I did was
18 my job. Where the shell came from, well, there are ballistic experts to
19 determine that. They can determine this on the basis of other elements.
20 They can determine where the shell was fired from. My job was to
21 investigate the site. If I stated something like that, something like
22 what you have just read out, that was an opinion of mine that I expressed.
23 Q. Witness, I am going to -- I am going to provide you with this page
24 and I would like you to identify your signature, please, because I think
25 that you are putting to question what you stated at the time.
1 A. Well, this is in English but I can see my initials here and I said
2 that I wasn't contesting this. If that's what it states, then, yes, the
3 statement is mine. It's been signed.
4 Q. Very well. In that case --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please return the statement to
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Q. Witness, I don't think you have answered my question. It is
9 therefore theoretically possible that such a shell came from a line which
10 was held by the Muslim forces?
11 A. Theoretically, yes.
12 Q. Thank you for your answer.
13 Witness, you mentioned the diameter -- I apologise -- calibre, 120
14 millimetre calibre. Do you stand by this?
15 A. Yes, I mentioned that.
16 Q. Do you stand by what you stated?
17 A. Yes, I can confirm that I mentioned a 120 millimetre calibre.
18 Q. Do you know whether other experts from your group found a 120
19 millimetre calibre?
20 A. Later on I found it out, but on the basis of the report from the
21 ballistics expert that there were other calibres in question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please
23 repeat your question because there might be some confusing -- your
24 question was: "Do you know whether other experts from your group found
25 a -- "
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not 120 millimetre.
2 It's an 82 millimetre calibre. We have a problem with the figures today.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That is what I have. This could create confusion.
4 So the question is whether his colleague found an 82 millimetre calibre.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will rephrase it.
6 Q. Witness, you have already answered the question but is it correct
7 that other experts found other calibres, calibres which were not 120
8 millimetre calibres and they stated that the calibres in question were 82
9 millimetre calibres?
10 A. I read in the report from the ballistics experts that the calibres
11 in question were 82 millimetre calibre.
12 Q. Thank you for that answer, Witness.
13 Witness, I would like to turn back to the two squares that we
14 mentioned a minute ago, the Rade Koncara Square and Zavnobiha. There was
15 a question I haven't asked you. As far as you know, were there any
16 premises used by the police in those squares? And as a policeman, as
17 citizen, you might be able to provide us with an answer.
18 A. I am not sure, but I think that in the Rade Koncara Square, there
19 was a department of some kind. Whether it was a police station, I am not
20 sure because I never went there. It was department of the uniformed
21 police but I don't belong to that department so I can't claim this with
23 Q. Witness, what do you call a department, a section? Could you be
24 more precise?
25 A. Perhaps there was some sort of station of the uniformed police
1 there for that area. And perhaps they went on shifts there because
2 everything was done in order to prevent people from moving in order to
3 make sure that people didn't have to move too much because of the
4 shelling. But how many people were, and up until when, I am not really in
5 a position to say. Nor can I say who issued an order or how many people
6 were there. But this is just my opinion. I really don't know whether
7 there was such a place. I know that a department -- there was no
8 department of the criminal police there.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 Witness, thank you for this answer. You said that it was
11 necessary for the people to move as little as possible. Do I understand
12 you correctly if I say that in a certain sense there was a dissolution of
13 the various police stations and the various command posts in the town,
14 that these places broke up.
15 A. I don't understand when you say "command post." There were
16 several police stations, public security stations. They existed before
17 the conflict and they still exist now. But there are police
18 administrations now. There's the public security station in Novi Grad and
19 there's one in Nova Sarajevo, in Centar, in Stari Grad -- there are public
20 security stations in all these places.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- if I may interrupt you. I am
22 trying to think at what we are going to do today and in the few coming
23 days. I know that if the cross-examination of the witness would take
24 until 7.00, that you would have used less time than the
25 examination-in-chief. On the other hand, the examination-in-chief
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 included the examination of the witness on the new photographs, so I take
2 it that if you want to reserve some time for that as well, well, there
3 would be 10 to 15 minutes left. I also know that it has been scheduled
4 to, when possible, to examine an expert for two days you indicated
5 approximately. So if we would start with that tomorrow and two days that
6 would take us until the -- up until Friday in the afternoon. So I am just
7 wondering what -- how much time you would still need. And of course, as I
8 said, if you want to study with the photographs, we will hear from you
9 later on whether there are any additional questions to be put in that
10 respect or whether the witness shall be recalled, whatever problem we'll
11 face then. We can't predict that. But could you give us an indication on
12 whether on the part of the cross-examination not dealing with the
13 photographs, you think you could do it until 7.00 or... ?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we are
15 going to finish by 7.00 and even before perhaps. There is just one
16 question with regard to the new photographs and therefore it is -- it will
17 be necessary to call this witness later. We only have one series of
18 questions concerning the new photograph
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed for this moment.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Just very rapidly, sir, as not to waste anyone's time. My
22 question was the following: Do you know whether during the war there was
23 a policy of distributing various police stations, scattering them about
24 the city in order to avoid having people to move about too much?
25 A. I am not familiar with any army or military posts that you refer
1 to in your question. I know that there was a Public Security station in
2 Novi Grad and Novi Sarajevo and all the other Public Security stations
3 and our police stations which are situated where they used to be in the
4 past. So this is the usual distribution of police stations, the structure
5 that was in existence prior to these facilities. I work in that sector
6 myself so each police station and public security station has its own
7 department for the criminal police and those are the people that I worked
8 with. But I don't know anything about the military structure or anything
10 Q. Witness, with reference to each and every one of these incidents
11 that we've discussed, do you know whether your services, general speaking,
12 would have called the UNPROFOR services in order to work together?
13 A. Once again, I don't have the competence to answer that question
14 because I am a member of the investigation team. It was up to others to
15 make up the team. And other people used to make the relevant calls. The
16 head of the team would be the investigating magistrate, and in case the
17 magistrate would not visit the site in question, it would be led by the
18 inspector of the public security services in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Witness, do you know whether on a regular basis there would be
20 reports filed and submitted to the investigating magistrate indicating the
21 results of the investigation?
22 A. Well, the team leader, whether it was a magistrate or an
23 inspector, would be obliged to draw up a report. It would be the team
24 leader's task, and such a report would be drawn up after the on-site
25 investigation. As to what would happen later once my own report would
1 come in, the ballistic expert report came in and all that, I suppose all
2 that together would make up the file. I am not really familiar with what
3 the other --
4 Q. Was that the case for this particular incident in 1993 as far as
5 you can tell? There were two incidents, for both of them, then?
6 A. I can't remember exactly who drew up the report. I can tell you
7 what I did. Once again, I believe that the investigating magistrate did
8 not draw up the report. It was the inspector, I think.
9 Q. So the so-called regular standard procedure of resorting to a
10 magistrate was not followed in this case?
11 A. Not just in this case. The regular standard procedure would be
12 for the team to be made of the investigating magistrate, the prosecutor,
13 the inspector, the forensic expert, and all the various experts, depending
14 on the needs. And the actual procedure in case the investigating
15 magistrate would not visit the scene, the report would then be drawn up by
16 the inspector of the public security services or else somebody from the
17 police station. I mean, there are relevant legal provisions laying down
18 the rules.
19 Q. Well, then, thank you, Witness.
20 Now to come back to these incidents that we are discussing at the
21 moment, both in November and in January. Do you know whether any measures
22 were implemented in order to get in touch with the opposite party and
23 organise a commission of the inquiry of international nature?
24 A. I am not familiar with any of that.
25 Q. On the other hand, can you confirm what you have just said, that
1 is to say, that since energy problems were serious in Sarajevo, it was not
2 always possible for you to be up to date when it came to the news, to
3 listen to the media and so on?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I have one last series of questions
6 with reference to the document that we are just received, but only about
7 the so-called mechanical side of things, what we normally call
8 manipulation. Let me just specify once again that we can't accept this
9 document, but in spite of that, we have to ask these questions because it
10 is an even more important principle that it is at stake.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we submit 0282300 to the
12 witness. Unfortunately, I have to hang on to my copy.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Are you referring to Exhibit P3681?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is exactly that. Thank
15 you very much.
16 Q. Witness, could you take a look at this document. On the left-hand
17 side, can you see a pillar which is larger than the others, or rather a
18 column where there is a handwritten text?
19 A. Yes, I do, I can read everything. I don't know what precisely you
20 are interested in.
21 Q. Yes, I am interested in the last square at the bottom of the page,
22 starting with the word "Dona" and followed by the number 9. Do you see
23 that square, that box?
24 A. Yes I do.
25 Q. Fine. I would like you to read for the sake of the transcript the
1 words which precede that particular box, that is to say, what is included
2 in the previous rectangular shape. Can you read it because we do not have
3 a perfect translation of that text -- or, rather, we don't have it at
5 A. It says "Trg Zavnobiha 18."
6 Q. No, that is not what it is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you are asking to read the
8 previous rectangular shape, you can either go upwards or to the left. I
9 don't know which one you wanted the witness --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You are quite right. I meant
11 the box which is -- which precedes this one to the left and it starts with
12 the words starting with a "B." To the left of what I have just read.
13 A. To the left of what I read earlier on?
14 Q. No, to the left with regard to the word "Dona."
15 A. That is what I did read. To the left with reference to Dona is
16 the square Zavnobiha house number 18 below.
17 Q. And then to the left?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that all these big rectangulars
20 start with the word "Dona." That might create some confusion. You are
21 asking the witness to read at the bottom line, and we start, Mr. Q, at the
22 left. The first box is a 9, yes? You agree?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The second, the third, the fourth and then the fifth
25 box, would you please read that. Is that what you intended him to read?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the fifth one, that would be
2 square 80.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
4 Q. No, down below. Go all the way down to the bottom of this
5 document, Witness, and you will see a word starting with a letter "B."
6 Can you find it? It ends by "Kazani."
7 A. It's not one of my cases.
8 Q. I do know that it is not one of your cases, but in spite of that,
9 I would like to kindly read this Bogusevac Jama Kazani. I did not hear
10 the translation. I would like it to be translated.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you read it slowly, the same word.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bogusevac Jama Kazani. It appears
13 to be a name.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 Witness, would you like to read down to the right of what you are
17 just read. It starts again with "Dona," the day.
18 A. "On the day of the 9th of November, 1993, at Bogusevac Jama
19 Kazani, 24 NN corpses were extracted, plus two heads."
20 Q. "NN," does it not stand for unidentified?
21 A. NN, yes, unidentified, unknown.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 Witness, could you tell us what Kazani stands for? Sometimes it
24 is associated with the caves of Kazani.
25 A. Believe me, I do not know. I cannot answer that question.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Fine. If I tell you that Kazani was the mass grave where Serbs
2 were buried, had been discovered, does it remind you of anything?
3 A. I know nothing about it. I was not involved.
4 Q. You do know this area, where is it? You know these documents?
5 A. Yes, this is the official register where we register our cases.
6 Q. Witness, I would like you to concentrate on the box down below
7 that you have just read. Don't you see under this number 24, other
8 numbers or other indications, as it were?
9 A. What I read earlier on?
10 Q. Under "24."
11 A. I don't understand.
12 Q. Don't you see, Witness, below the number 24 underneath there is a
13 trace of something having been erased or deleted.
14 A. I can see some traces but I don't know what it is.
15 Q. Thank you for this answer. And one last question, Mr. President.
16 And we will necessarily have to come back to this.
17 Witness, do you know where the original of this page might be
19 A. This is the original -- well, the original would be in the
20 register at my office.
21 Q. Does it still exist?
22 A. It should.
23 Q. Fine.
24 Are you familiar with this document?
25 A. I was familiar with the register when I was entering my own cases,
1 the reports pertaining to my own cases.
2 Q. Is this your own handwritten document?
3 A. Which one do you mean?
4 Q. The one up there, the case that you dealt with.
5 A. Not all of it.
6 Q. But to a certain extent?
7 A. Just the part at the right. It is my handwriting in the
8 penultimate section, in the upper part of the paper, and the rest of it, I
9 dictated it to the colleagues that were doing up the text.
10 Q. Have you yourself copied or photocopied this page?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us when?
13 A. I copied when I was preparing --
14 Q. Fine, since I know nothing about your preparations, can you
15 nevertheless tell me when?
16 A. It was perhaps a month ago. I can't tell exactly.
17 Q. So a month ago these documents still existed?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I will take note of that, Witness.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has
21 no further questions. I do apologise to everyone for this delay, and
22 we'll no doubt have to recall this witness for the reasons you are
23 familiar with, and we have no questions for the time being.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer for one single second with my
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, you might have noticed that the document you
3 were just questioned about has both the interest of the Prosecution and,
4 perhaps for other reasons, but also the interest of the Defence. It is
5 tendered into evidence, copies of this document by the Prosecution, so we
6 have to decide on that. But in case we would decide that this document
7 will be admitted in evidence, we just have a photocopy here. And since we
8 understand that the original is under your control, this Chamber gives you
9 an order to keep it under your control and to have it available, the
10 original, for inspection by the Tribunal.
11 You did understand what I just said, that you copied it, the
12 original; you should keep it. So we order you not to lose it, not to
13 destroy it, not to give it away as a birthday present, whatever. It
14 should stay where it is and you should keep it under your control. And
15 this is an order of the Chamber of the Tribunal, one that you are bound to
17 Do you have any questions in respect of that order?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. I don't have the original.
19 It is a register of all the official activities situated in Sarajevo. It
20 is not within my competence to take it out without the approval from my
22 JUDGE ORIE: I am not asking you to take out anything. I think
23 you said that it was in your offices. You don't have to take it out. But
24 we order you to do everything in order to be sure that no one else takes
25 it out as well, so neither yourself or anyone else, and if necessary, we
1 would expand this order to your superiors as well. What we want to avoid
2 is that we are later on in a position where questions are still there in
3 respect of this document and whether the original was available. Until
4 very recently, copies could be made and could be produced in this court
5 that suddenly the original wasn't there any more. That is what the order
6 was about. You are bound by this order.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to state that it
8 is not within my competence to keep or preserve this document in any way.
9 If it is within your power to get in touch with my superiors directly to
10 make sure that that document is preserved, fine, but it is not up to me.
11 I believe that this register referring to that particular period of time
12 has been stored in the archives and it is only my superiors who can issue
13 any orders in relation to that register. I am not in a position to get my
14 hands on it without their permission.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Q, what this Chamber knows is that you gave
16 testimony that you copied it, so that you have some kind of control. And
17 whatever one of your superiors says that they want to take it away or to
18 do anything else with it, that you should tell them that you are bound by
19 an order of this Court to do whatever you whatever you can do to prevent
20 them. If some of your superiors would think that -- well, if it would
21 disappear, that that would be a very serious matter and that would be
22 keeping away from this Chamber potential original evidence, or even worse,
23 destroying potential evidence which is -- which would result in contempt
24 of this Court. Yes.
25 I apologise for the interpreters that we took seven minutes extra
1 without asking your permission. I should have done so. But you also may
2 have noticed it was a bit of an exceptional situation.
3 May I just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at this very moment -- no,
4 perhaps, first ask the witness to be guided out of the court and with the
5 -- at this moment, you are not yet excused because there might be some
6 additional questions from either the Prosecution or the Defence or the
7 Judges. So that means that you should return to this courtroom by
8 tomorrow a quarter past 2.00. And how much it would then will take, we
9 will see whether you have to come back at perhaps a later moment, we will
10 also see. But would you please come back tomorrow by a quarter past 2.00.
11 There is another order: You should not get in touch with your
12 superiors or your colleagues in order to inform them about the order you
13 were given. That might create additional problems. Yes.
14 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I make it quite briefly, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you
18 said you would like to come back to this document at a later moment. I
19 do think you would like to do it right tomorrow after you further
20 inspected the document, or do you say, well, I'll see whether it will be
21 necessary to recall the witness at a later moment or whether I can
22 conclude the cross-examination by tomorrow on this document?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let's adopt a
24 pragmatic approach because at any rate this witness will have to come
25 back. If let's say we have him come back in a couple of days or in a
1 couple of weeks, perhaps in that case he could bring along the original
2 and that would perhaps be the best possible way to clarify certain
3 matters. I believe that we are ready - I can't confirm - I mean, we can
4 continue the cross-examination tomorrow, but this other option would be
5 useful as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine that you -- I think we have to
7 consider your observation, but could we at least hear from you tomorrow by
8 2.15 on whether you have any additional questions at this moment in
9 relation to this document, at least alone whether there are other
10 questions to be put either to this witness or other witnesses in respect
11 of this document.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will have further
13 questions, that is certain. We will see how much time is necessary and we
14 will let you know tomorrow morning, early.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, I take it that you will need some
16 time for re-examination of the witness?
17 MR. STAMP: I -- no, I don't think there would be much depending
18 on what is asked. So far, there is hardly anything. We note the
19 cross-examination of the document. We can't see it being relevant to the
20 issues in this case. There might be issues for other cases. However,
21 that is a matter for a judgment. I could say that we don't have much in
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. So what --
24 MR. STAMP: May I --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp. We are asking a lot from the
2 MR. STAMP: There is one clarification, if I may ask about the
3 order which you made. If I understood it, it was indicated by the witness
4 that he did not have control of these documents. This is from a register
5 which is kept in an archive and that his superiors would have to make a
6 decision as to what happens. And subsequently, I believe he was told that
7 he could not inform his superiors of the order which the Court made.
8 JUDGE ORIE: He should not get in touch with his superiors. It
9 might be quite clear to you what is the concern of this Court. What we
10 try to achieve is to prevent that would happen what would be of major
11 concern to us, that it means preservation of evidence. As a matter of
12 fact --
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The order has been given by the Chamber and we will
15 discuss, we'll have some deliberations on what the consequences should be
16 because there have been suggested different solutions that the witness
17 would bring. Perhaps he might not have the power. But perhaps there are
18 other ways of inspecting, or at least to see whether originals can be
19 inspected. And as you may have noticed, the concern of the Court is that
20 the original remains available in whatever form, whatever way, either for
21 the parties to inspect first or to be produced to the Court. That is the
22 major concern of this Chamber. Whether we need any additional orders to
23 give, you will hear that by tomorrow. I also wanted to prevent the
24 witness to give a lot of phone calls this evening and that unfortunately
25 evidence might be lost.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Then I take it that tomorrow -- may I take it that approximately
2 half an hour with re-examination and, if necessary, questions of the
3 Judges -- that we could spend half an hour on Witness Q and then proceed
4 with the expert, Mr. Donia. We will adjourn and I thank both the
5 technicians and the interpreters for their patience. We will adjourn
6 until 2.15 in the same courtroom.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 7.15, p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
9 the 18th, day of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.