Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7897

 1                          Monday, 6 May 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Stanislav Galic.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.  Good morning

 9    to everyone after the break of more than a week.  I am happy to see that

10    everyone is there again.

11            Mr. Stamp, the Chamber expected the Prosecution to come up one of

12    these days, or perhaps even today, with a new schedule of the witnesses,

13    but I don't know whether it is at this very moment that you would like to

14    inform the Chamber or that it will be at a later stage today or tomorrow.

15            MR. STAMP:  It should be certainly tomorrow.  We are in

16    discussions, as we are just about coming to the end of the shelling crime

17    base part of evidence, and a new structure should be with the Court

18    certainly this week, but I would expect by tomorrow.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to make it tomorrow, if possible.

20    Yes?

21            MR. STAMP:  Very well.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, is there anything else you want to bring

23    to the attention of the Chamber?

24            MR. STAMP:  There are some documents which the Prosecution

25    proposed to tender personally under Rule 92 bis.  But perhaps with your

Page 7898

 1    leave, we could do so at a more convenient time later in the day, and at

 2    this moment, proceed with the witnesses.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if the witness is there, I think we could start

 4    with the witness and whenever there is an opportunity today, then you

 5    perhaps bring it to our attention what the Prosecution intends to do.

 6            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic.

 8            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  The

 9    Defence would like to take this opportunity while we are waiting for the

10    witness to advise the Chamber that the health situation of General Galic

11    has significantly worsened.  With your permission, we talked to him on the

12    telephone this morning and if with the Court's indulgence, General Galic

13    would like to say something about his health, whether now or at the end of

14    the day.  It is up to you.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Since I was informed that we -- that the witness is

16    waiting already --

17                          [Trial Chamber confers]

18            JUDGE ORIE:  May I suggest the following order:  That General

19    Galic will briefly address the problem he is facing at this moment, and if

20    it needs more time to discuss it or to see what has to be done at this

21    very moment, then we perhaps do it at a later stage, so that we are

22    briefly informed now and we can also then decide whether it is so urgent

23    that we deal with it in more detail at this moment or that we do that on a

24    later moment today.

25            General Galic.

Page 7899

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  I am aware that discussing health problems in

 3    public is not the most pleasant thing to do, so if there is any specific

 4    reason why you would like to raise the issue in other circumstances, in

 5    closed session, for example, please indicate so, so we can take the

 6    appropriate measures.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

 8    morning, Mr. President.  There is no need for closed session.  I am quite

 9    comfortable to discuss it in open session because I believe that the issue

10    concerning my health is publicly known; we have already mentioned it a

11    couple of times.  I will be very brief.  It is my spine, Your Honour, that

12    causes me problem.  The situation has worsened.  I am under therapy.  I

13    take medicine three times a day, three or four different medicines which

14    are painkillers.  However, it disturbs me to a certain extent for the

15    purpose of following the trial.  Likewise, I have problems with walking.

16    The guards have been very considerate, but I still have to crouch a couple

17    of times before reach the courtroom.

18            I should like to be examined once again.  A CT of my spine has

19    already been done and I believe that the results have been provided to the

20    Chamber.  I don't know the details, though.  So I am sure that you are

21    familiar with the general situation of my health.  The problem, Your

22    Honour, is a discus hernia, which has caused three different injuries.

23    One of them is a major one and causes considerable pain.  I have been

24    provided with a special chair here, as you can see it, and this chair has

25    somehow, to a certain extent, alleviated the problem.  Likewise, I also

Page 7900

 1    have a plastic chair during the break, so I am able to relax a little

 2    during the break.

 3            However, in the detention unit, I asked for a special chair on

 4    several occasions because I spend a lot of time, reading, writing or

 5    watching TV.  However, nothing has been done in this respect so far and I

 6    do hope that Mr. McFadden, the chief of the detention unit, will do his

 7    best.  I know that he is currently working on this problem.  If this

 8    situation should continue, I do not think that I will be able to follow

 9    the trial under, let me say, normal circumstances.  The pain very often

10    suddenly appears in the area of my hip and my spine and moves up towards

11    my head.  And once I have this headache, I have difficulty following the

12    trial.  So, Your Honours I should like to ask you once again for my health

13    to be analyzed by a professional physician and, if possible, I should like

14    to have a team of doctors to visit me from Belgrade.  These doctors are

15    employees of the military hospital in Belgrade who followed me in the past

16    and who monitored my health in the past, and they have all the necessary

17    documentation, and I should like to be examined by them and have a

18    conversation with one of these physicians in the detention unit.

19            The doctor here in the detention unit, when I told him this, said

20    that this is a good idea.  And that perhaps in the meantime I should do

21    some exercises, physical exercises.  However, the problem is that I cannot

22    really walk.  If I were able to walk normally, things would be much

23    easier.  I am regular with my morning exercises, and so far, they have

24    helped me to endure and to follow the trial.  So my suggestion is a very

25    simple one, Your Honour:  I should like to be examined once again.  I

Page 7901

 1    should like to have an opinion whether a surgery is necessary or not.  But

 2    once again, if the situation is allowed to continue in this way, I do not

 3    think that in the future I will be able to follow the trial.

 4            Thank you very much for your attention.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you -- if you prefer to be seated, that is

 6    no problem, as far as the Chamber is concerned, General Galic.  Are you

 7    under any treatment, apart from getting medicines, by physiotherapy or

 8    something like that?

 9            THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] You see, Your Honours, it is very

10    difficult to organise physiotherapy to continue with the trial at the

11    current pace.  I know what kind of exercises I have to do and I do them

12    every morning, but I was not treated by a physiotherapist.  I hope that

13    you have understood me.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  I think what the Chamber has to do is enquire further

15    into the questions you raised, and it is a new examination, also

16    especially aiming at getting an answer to the question whether surgery

17    would be a solution for your problems, and preferably not only by the

18    doctors in the detention facility but also assisted by the doctors who

19    have treated you before.  That is one issue.

20            The second issue is the chair in the detention unit.  I do

21    understand that the chairs here have improved, but not yet in the

22    detention unit.  We will enquire to that further, and when it needs more

23    discussion in this courtroom, we will come back to it.

24            For this very moment, are you at this moment able to continue with

25    the trial?  You told us several times that if it would not change, that in

Page 7902

 1    the near future, you saw major problems in attending the trial.  But for

 2    this very moment, I mean today, and, well, let's say the week to come, do

 3    you feel able to follow the -- to attend the trial and to understand and

 4    concentrate enough to make it a trial as it should be?

 5            THE ACCUSED:  I am an old soldier, you know, and I am accustomed

 6    to enduring thing as lot.  But if you want my personal opinion, I think I

 7    will be fine for this week.  You know how it is, the situation is not the

 8    same all the time.  Sometimes I have more pain, sometimes less.  Well, I

 9    wanted to be as brief as possible.  For the time being, I think I will be

10    able to follow the proceedings, with minor difficulties which, as far as I

11    am concerned, I don't think affect to a great extent my ability to follow

12    the proceedings.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I will make sure that, with high priority, we will

14    pay attention to the issues, the health issues, you have just raised and

15    we will come back to it.

16            Well, then if there is no other issue to be discussed at this

17    very moment, Mr. Stamp, who will be the next witness to be called by the

18    Prosecution?

19            MR. STAMP:  Fata Spahic.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, would you, please.

21                          [The witness entered court]

22                          WITNESS: FATA SPAHIC

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mrs. Spahic, I presume.  From your

24    reaction, I take it that you hear me in a language you understand?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

Page 7903

1            JUDGE ORIE:  May I invite you to speak clearly into the

 2    microphone so that we all can hear you and that the translators also can

 3    translate to us what you just said.  Ms. Spahic, before giving testimony

 4    in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

 5    solemn declaration that you will speak the truth -- that you will speak

 6    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  And the text of

 7    this declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher.  And may I

 8    invite you to make that declaration.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing but the truth.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  I am afraid we didn't hear the first part of

11    the solemn declaration.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  May I just invite you to make the whole declaration.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am afraid I cannot see the text.

14    I don't have my glasses with me.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Then, may I ask you to repeat the words that I will

16    read out to you.  Would you please repeat me.

17            I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19    the truth.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  The whole truth.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing but the truth.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much, Ms. Spahic.  Please be seated.

25            Ms. Spahic, you have been called as a witness by the Prosecution

Page 7904

 1    and that means that you will first be examined by counsel for the

 2    Prosecution.  Then, later you will be examined by counsel for the Defence

 3    and if the Judges have any questions, you will hear from us as well.

 4            Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

 5            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                          Examined by Mr. Stamp:

 7       Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Spahic.

 8       A.   Good morning.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Spahic, I think it is easier -- Mr. Stamp is

10    putting questions to you; he is sitting to your right.  If you are a bit

11    nervous, there is no need to be nervous.  Mr. Stamp will put questions to

12    you, and perhaps if you look at him, he is standing there.

13            MR. STAMP:  To your right.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to look at the screen all the time,

15    Mrs. Spahic.  That is Mr. Stamp who is -- he is over there.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am afraid I cannot read --

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Spahic --

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- what's on the screen.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to read anything on the screen.  Just

20    look to your right.  Mr. Stamp is standing there and he will put questions

21    to you.  Yes?  Listen carefully and try to answer his questions.

22            MR. STAMP:

23       Q.   Your name is Fata Spahic?

24       A.   Yes, Fata Spahic.

25       Q.   Which city do you live in, Mrs. Spahic?

Page 7905

 1       A.   Sarajevo.

 2       Q.   How long have you lived in Sarajevo?

 3       A.   For 35 years.

 4       Q.   Do you have a family there?

 5       A.   Yes, I do.

 6       Q.   How many family members are there?

 7       A.   Four.

 8       Q.   And did you live in Sarajevo during the period 1992 to 1995?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   In what part of Sarajevo did you live at that time?

11       A.   In Svrakino.

12       Q.   Where is Svrakino?  Is that a part of a larger district in

13    Sarajevo?

14       A.   It belongs to the Novi Grad municipality.

15       Q.   And in that period in time, in particular, 1994, with whom did you

16    live?  Did you live with anybody in particular?

17       A.   With my husband and my two sons.

18       Q.   Can you remember the 4th of February, 1994?  Did something happen?

19       A.   Yes, I can.

20       Q.   That day, did you leave from where you lived and go anywhere in

21    particular?

22       A.   Yes, I did.

23       Q.   Where did you go to?

24       A.   To Dobrinja.

25       Q.   Can you tell us briefly why you travelled to Dobrinja that day?

Page 7906

 1       A.   To get some flour for my children.

 2       Q.   Tell us, if you can, about the circumstances surrounding the

 3    supply of food and flour at that time, why it is you had to travel to

 4    Dobrinja to get flour.

 5       A.   They had more humanitarian aid than we did.  That is why we went

 6    there.

 7       Q.   And how --

 8       A.   To swap flour for cigarettes.

 9       Q.   I take it from your answer that you would go there to trade flour

10    for cigarettes, generally.  That day, the 4th of February, 1994, was that

11    your intention?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And can you remember about what time you set off to go to Dobrinja

14    to get this flour?

15       A.   Around 10.00.

16       Q.   And did you set off to Dobrinja alone or did you have company?

17    Did you have other persons travelling with you?

18       A.   No.  I was not alone.  There was some friends with me.

19       Q.   Can you remember the names of your friends?

20       A.   Fatima Sito and Azra Spahic.

21       Q.   I think I heard you call another name which I don't see recorded.

22    Could you repeat -- could you tell me how many friends then travelled with

23    you?

24       A.   Three.

25       Q.   And you have Fatima Sito and Azra Spahic.  Can you recall the

Page 7907

 1    third name of the friend that travelled with you?

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  I am afraid we didn't understand the witness.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Can you please repeat the last name, Mrs. Spahic,

 4    because the interpreters couldn't hear you.

 5       A.   Pribinja Muskija.

 6       Q.   And do you know what was the purpose of them going to Dobrinja?

 7    Was it the same purpose as yours, to trade for flour?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Now, how did you travel to Dobrinja?  By what means did you travel

10    there?

11       A.   On foot.

12       Q.   This was a time of conflict, and I take it that it might have been

13    a little bit dangerous?

14       A.   Yes, it was.

15       Q.   Tell us how you managed to get there by foot if you managed by any

16    particular strategy?

17       A.   We tried to hide from the bullets.  The bullets were whizzing all

18    about us.

19       Q.   And how were you dressed?

20       A.   As a civilian.

21       Q.   Well, can you remember the clothes that you had on?

22       A.   I had camouflage pullover.

23       Q.   And the other ladies, how were they dressed?

24       A.   In civilian clothes.

25       Q.   What was the weather like that day, if you can recall?

Page 7908

 1       A.   The weather was nice.

 2       Q.   How about the visibility?

 3       A.   There was some fog.

 4       Q.   At what time was there this fog?

 5       A.   At about 11.00.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Can you tell us about what time did you arrive in

 7    Dobrinja, approximately.

 8       A.   About 10.00, 10.30, something like that.

 9       Q.   And did you go to any particular place in Dobrinja to do the

10    trading for flour?

11       A.   No.  We walked to see once when they come out of town so that we

12    can see what we can trade.

13       Q.   Now, where in Dobrinja did you go to, to do the trading?

14       A.   It was Oslodobilaca Sarajevo Street.

15       Q.   Did you go on the street itself or did you go somewhere in the

16    vicinity of that street?

17       A.   No.  We just went between the buildings to hide from the bullets.

18       Q.   Now, where did the trading for flour, where was it expected to

19    take place?

20       A.   In Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street.

21       Q.   And what I am really asking you, was it on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

22    Street itself or was it somewhere close or in the vicinity of Oslobodilaca

23    Sarajeva Street?

24       A.   There was a field and we were on there, a play area, that is where

25    we were, on that area.

Page 7909

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.  The witness has already

 3    answered -- it's a little objection because the witness has already

 4    answered that this was in the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street.  But

 5    considering that the witness already answered, I would in fact withdraw

 6    this objection.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

 9       Q.   You said there was a field with a play area there.  Where was this

10    field with the play area in respect to Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?

11       A.   They have those garages there between buildings, so there is some

12    kind of parking lot or a play area; that is where we were.

13       Q.   Now, about how many persons gathered in this play area?

14       A.   There were about 20 or so of us.

15       Q.   And can you recall if the persons there were men, women,

16    children?  What was the composition of the crowd in terms of age and

17    gender?

18       A.   It was all women there and there were some children.  There were

19    little girls that also came for the flour.

20       Q.   And how were these women and little girls dressed, can you

21    remember?

22       A.   All in civilian clothes.

23       Q.   What did you carry there to trade that day?

24       A.   Cigarettes, flour, that is some dried spinach leaves.

25       Q.   And did you put your cigarette and dried spinach leaves anywhere

Page 7910

 1    in that play area?

 2       A.   There were three benches and we put it all around on these

 3    benches.

 4       Q.   Now, while you were there that morning, did anything happen?

 5       A.   A shell fell opposite to where we were when we arrived.  And we

 6    fled.

 7       Q.   We will take this bit by bit.

 8            You said, "a shell fell."  Let us take it from the start.  While

 9    you were in that play area, did you hear anything?

10       A.   There was a whistle.

11       Q.   Could you please describe exactly what you heard after this

12    whistle.

13       A.   Just heard cries for help, screaming in those buildings near us.

14       Q.   When you heard this whistle, could you say if the whistle was

15    going in any particular direction?

16       A.   Well, the shell landed on a building, fell on a building.

17       Q.   When you heard this whistling, did you do anything?

18       A.   We fled from there.

19       Q.   Where did you run to?

20       A.   To an entrance where humanitarian aid was distributed.

21       Q.   And you said the shell exploded on a building.  Did you hear

22    anything when this shell exploded?

23       A.   We heard screams for help, cries.

24       Q.   And can you say where the shell exploded, on which building the

25    shell exploded?

Page 7911

 1       A.   To the right of where we were.

 2       Q.   When you say "to the right," tell us in terms of the garage.

 3    Where did the shell explode in respect to --

 4       A.   In a flat.  It exploded in flats.  That is where the shell landed.

 5       Q.   And this flat, where is this flat?  Can you remember the street

 6    this flat is on?

 7       A.   It is Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street.  It all happened in this

 8    street.

 9       Q.   You said you ran to a passage from which you heard screams.  How

10    long did you remain in that passage?

11       A.   About 15 minutes.

12       Q.   And did you do anything after those 15 minutes elapsed?

13       A.   We went back to get our things.

14       Q.   What things are you speaking about that you went back to get?

15       A.   We had those spinach leaves and all the other things that was --

16    that remained on the benches.

17       Q.   And you said, "we," meaning yourself and other persons.  Were

18    these other persons the other women who had --

19       A.   That's right, yes.

20       Q.   Now, when you returned to get your things, tell us now --

21       A.   We all went back.

22       Q.   I am sorry, I did not --  oh, "We all went back."  When you all

23    went back to the play area, what happened after that?

24       A.   We heard this sound, and as we bent down, the shell landed near

25    us.

Page 7912

 1       Q.   What sound did you hear?  You said you heard this sound and "the

 2    shell landed near us."  Can you tell us what you saw and what you heard

 3    when the shell landed?

 4       A.   We heard the noises, and when we heard the noises, I turned back,

 5    and then there was fog and I was all covered in fog and I couldn't see

 6    anything.  And then I saw these two women who -- who were down and I tried

 7    to help them, and I couldn't help them.  And there were injuries, head,

 8    leg.

 9       Q.   You said you heard noises.  Could you describe what type of noises

10    you heard when the shell exploded?

11       A.   We heard the whistle, and we heard and then it fell.  As soon as

12    we heard it, it landed.

13       Q.   Did it land in front of you, to your side, or behind you?

14       A.   Behind us.  Behind our back.

15       Q.   And after it landed, you said you were all covered in fog.  What

16    do you mean by that?

17       A.   Well, that's what the shell made.  There was this tar and dust

18    that came from the shell so we realised that the land -- that the shell

19    had landed.  We couldn't find our bearings.

20       Q.   I am going to ask you Mrs. Spahic, just to speak about what you

21    and you alone saw and heard.  Okay?  Don't tell us what you believe other

22    people there would have seen and heard.  Just adhere to what you saw and

23    what you heard.

24            After the shell fell, did you see -- did you see people around you

25    and in what condition were these people?

Page 7913

 1       A.   They were --

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.  I

 3    am objecting because there were two questions that follow on each other,

 4    so if the answer was "I didn't see anything," so I don't know why the

 5    following question would be in which conditions they were.  So if we look

 6    at the question, is that it is indicating to the witness that the witness

 7    should have answered "yes" or "no."  So that is the reason for the

 8    objection.  Thank you.

 9            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

11            MR. STAMP:  I am trying to be as careful as I can with the

12    witness, having regard to everything which is pretty obvious.  However, I

13    do recall the witness saying that there were two ladies who were being

14    down --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Two women being down, yes.  I don't think that since

16    the witness did already testify that she saw two women down, that it

17    would not be appropriate to ask whether she saw any people around and in

18    what condition.  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

19            You may answer that question.  The question was whether you saw

20    any people around you at that very moment after the shell landed.

21       A.   Yes, we did see them.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  And in what condition they were?

23       A.   Some were crawling on the floor towards the buildings and there

24    were two people who were killed, and the others were crawling away towards

25    the buildings.  They couldn't -- they were also injured people.

Page 7914

 1            MR. STAMP:

 2       Q.   The two ladies that you referred to earlier, did you recognise

 3    them?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Who were they?

 6       A.   Fatima Sito and Muskija and Azra.

 7       Q.   Fatima Sito, and who is the other person.

 8       A.   Muskija Pribinja.

 9       Q.   In what condition was Fatima?

10       A.   She was all black from the tar dust and her leg and her head were

11    injured, were smashed.

12       Q.   And Muskija Pribinja, what condition was she?

13       A.   She was injured and she calling for help.  I couldn't help.  And

14    they took her out and then the ambulance came.

15       Q.   You said you couldn't help Muskija.  Did you go anywhere after

16    this?

17       A.   They took us all to the surgery in Dobrinja.

18       Q.   Who took you?

19       A.   Some people from this surgery.

20       Q.   I think you mentioned ambulance.  Did they take you in an

21    ambulance?

22       A.   They had a car.  I don't know who called the ambulance, but they

23    had a car.

24       Q.   In which vehicle -- did they take you to the surgery in a vehicle?

25       A.   It was a small ambulance vehicle.

Page 7915

 1       Q.   Tell us about yourself now.  Were you injured?

 2       A.   Yes, I was, I was injured.

 3       Q.   To what part of your body?  Just tell us.

 4       A.   Right arm and my leg, the lower leg.

 5       Q.   You said you had on a flack jacket.  Where did you get this jacket

 6    from?

 7       A.   From my son.

 8       Q.   Did you notice anything about the flack jacket after you had been

 9    taken to the surgery?

10       A.   I saw there were lots of shrapnel in it.  I could not be

11    recognised, there were so many pieces of shrapnel in it.

12       Q.   Can you indicate what would likely have happened to you if you did

13    not have that flack jacket on?

14       A.   Well, I think I would have been killed.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is just a presumption,

16    assumption.  I don't know how we can ask this kind of question.

17            MR. STAMP:  Very well.  I will move on.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19            MR. STAMP:

20       Q.   While you were being taken to the surgery, did you hear anything

21    in particular?

22       A.   We heard another shell falling right there where we were, where

23    we were injured.

24       Q.   Do you know what was -- what, if anything, was taking place on

25    Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street that day?

Page 7916

 1       A.   There was -- there were other people injured.  I don't know,

 2    myself.

 3       Q.   The people, the other people on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, do

 4    you know why they were there that day?

 5       A.   Well, there was humanitarian aid that was being distributed.

 6       Q.   About how long after you returned to the playground area did the

 7    third -- did the second shell explode that day?

 8       A.   About 15 minutes.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to intervene for the

10    French transcript because there is a problem of interpretation.  We are

11    not -- they are not mentioning the second shell, and I think we should do

12    that, be very careful about the reading of the transcript.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In English, it was quite clear.

14            When you were talking about 15 minutes, is that the time between

15    the first shell landed and the second shell landed?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, about 15 minutes was the time

17    between the two.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

19            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20       Q.   And following on from that, you said you returned to the

21    playground area to pick up your things.  How much --

22       A.   That's right.

23       Q.   How much --

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   How much time elapsed between the time when you started to pick up

Page 7917

 1    your things and the shell fell behind you?

 2       A.   15 minutes.  We went back from there to pick up our things.

 3       Q.   I understand that.  And how soon, if I may put it another way?

 4    When you started to pick up your things and a shell landed behind you; is

 5    that correct?

 6       A.   We started to pick up our things and as soon as we started doing

 7    that, I remember that the shell fell immediately.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall participating in a video production last

 9    year with an investigator of the OTP?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And you indicated to the investigator while being videoed certain

12    places, to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

13       A.   Yes, yes, we did.  We showed it.

14       Q.   After the incident of the 4th of February 1994, when was the next

15    time that you returned to that playground?

16       A.   I didn't.  It is when I went -- I don't know which month that

17    was.  It was in spring.  I don't know exactly when.

18       Q.   Well, you said you didn't -- perhaps if I could clarify this.  You

19    were there on the 4th of February, 1994, and you were there sometime

20    last year showing our investigator certain places, to the best

21    of your knowledge and recollection.  Did you return to that place

22    before --

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   I am not sure if I follow your answer.  You were answering before

25    I finished the question.  Did you return to that place before, anytime

Page 7918

 1    before you showed our investigator the various places?

 2       A.   No, we never returned.  No, we did not.

 3       Q.   I take it from your answer that between the 5th of February, 1994,

 4    and the date when you did -- when you were videoed there, you never

 5    returned to that place; is that correct?

 6       A.   No.  Certainly, we did not go back.  We did not return.

 7            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, I

 8    respectfully ask to play for the witness to identify videotape P3281.E.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Leave is granted.

10            MR. STAMP:  For the record, it is P3281.E.  P3281.E as in "echo."

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just for the

13    record, please, the document that I have in front of me is 281E, P281.E.

14    I don't -- I don't know whether we have the same document.  The one that I

15    have is 3281.E, which is not what we see on the transcript.  3281.E.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I take it that you have

17    studied the video before this -- before today, and you just check whether

18    it is the same or not and then I take it that the -- that the number of

19    the video, as pronounced in words by Mr. Stamp, will be the final number.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with pleasure,

21    but, however, the number that we have just been given is not the one that

22    has been pronounced by Mr. Stamp, and that was the reason of my

23    intervention.  I have 3281.E.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is what I have.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If Mr. Stamp is telling us

Page 7919

 1    that it is 328, then it's a different number

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  He said it is 3281.E, so that's exactly the same

 3    number as you mentioned.  If there is any confusion after we have seen the

 4    video, please come back to it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 5            I do not see anything on my screen at this very moment.  We could

 6    now play the video.

 7            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  The other personnel remain the same.

 8    Mrs. Spahic, I am now going to give you some instructions.  Could you

 9    please show me by standing at the spot where, to the best of your

10    recollection, you took shelter after you heard the first shell explode on

11    the 4th of February, 1994.  I will repeat my question:  Where you took

12    shelter after you heard the first shell explode.

13            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

14            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  I see you are indicating down the

15    sidewalk.  Could you please indicate once again for the camera.

16            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

17            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Thank you."

18            MR. STAMP:  Could you please stop there and rewind just very

19    slowly.  Stop there.

20       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, do you see a sidewalk in the middle of this frame?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   At the end of this sidewalk, in the direction of where you are

23    pointing, is that the passageway that you said you ran to?

24       A.   Yes.

25            MR. STAMP:  Please proceed.

Page 7920












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 7921

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Could we please proceed in the normal speed.

 2            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Could you please show me by standing

 3    on the spot where you were, to the best of your recollection, on the 4th

 4    of February, 1994, when the second shell exploded?

 5            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 6            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Can you please stand on the spot.

 7            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 8            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  May I just confirm that this is the

 9    spot where you were standing when the second shell exploded on the 4th of

10    February, 1994?

11            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

12            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  I am going to mark this spot with

13    yellow paint and an X with the number 2 on it."

14            MR. STAMP:  Could you stop here, please.

15       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, beside the investigator, there are two columns

16    there.  Do you see them?  Look on the video.

17       A.   Yes, I do.

18       Q.   Having regard to those columns, can you say where the bench with

19    your goods was set up?

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to repeat the

21    answer, please?

22            MR. STAMP:

23       Q.   The question is:  Can you tell us where the bench that you had

24    laid your goods to trade was set up?

25       A.   Near the passageway, near the playground where the garage is.

Page 7922

 1       Q.   Well, let me ask you this:  You said that that is a place that you

 2    are standing at the time when the shell exploded behind you?

 3       A.   We were standing next to the bench, and the shell landed behind

 4    us.

 5       Q.   And is that place where you are standing now where the

 6    investigator just marked with the spray paint, the place where you were

 7    standing when the shell exploded?

 8       A.   Where the yellow marking is.

 9       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, and that place where the yellow marking is, is the

10    place that you were standing when the shell exploded; is that correct?

11       A.   Yes, it is.

12       Q.   Very well.  Thanks.

13            MR. STAMP:  Could we proceed with the tape in normal speed.

14            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Could you please show me by standing

15    at the spot where, to the best of your recollection, the second shell

16    exploded on the 4th of February, 1994?

17            "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

18            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Thank you very much for your

19    assistance.  We will now proceed to the third location."

20            MR. STAMP:  Thank you.  You may stop here.  Thanks.

21            Your Honour, Mr. President, may I just indicate that this is

22    perhaps, we could say, a presentation with three episodes.  As I indicated

23    the last time, the witness Ljusa was involved in the first, this witness

24    is involved in the second, and a third will be played when another witness

25    is here to identify that part.  So that is a presentation.  Thank you very

Page 7923

 1    much.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that also explains that the other personnel

 3    remains the same as we started with.  Yes, I now do better understand.

 4    Please proceed.

 5            MR. STAMP:

 6       Q.   You, Mrs. Spahic, you answered the questions asked and gave the

 7    indication that you did on this video to the best of your knowledge and

 8    recollection?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   You said that you did not return to this place after the 4th of

11    February until you went there last year with our investigator.  Can you

12    tell us whether or not this explosion and the incident in which you were

13    injured had any psychological effects on you?

14       A.   Well, there have been changes.

15       Q.   What changes?  Could you please describe them.

16       A.   First of all, I have often pain in my arm, especially when I work

17    for a longer period of time.

18       Q.   And lastly, that day, the 4th --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very sorry,

21    Mr. President, but the French record is as follows:  "I suffer; I am in

22    pain."  It is not the same thing as "I have often pain in my arm."  One

23    has to be very precise in cases like these.  Thank you for the record.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mrs. Spahic, may I ask you, when you said you

25    have often pain, did you say that you often have pain in your arm or were

Page 7924

 1    you referring generally to having pain?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Always in my arm, but when the

 3    weather changes, the pain is more severe in my arm.  But my leg hurts all

 4    the time.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 7            MR. STAMP:

 8       Q.   How about mental and psychological effects?  Are there any which

 9    have resulted from this incident that we speak of?

10       A.   Yes.  I am very often fearful.  Whenever I hear a sound, I

11    immediately think of a shell.

12       Q.   And finally, did you see any soldiers on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

13    Street that morning?

14       A.   Yes, two soldiers.

15       Q.   And at the place you were injured, at the playground, did --

16       A.   Before, that's where we saw them.

17       Q.   We will get to that.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  The

20    French booth that I am following have just told us that they were not able

21    to hear the witness's answer.  Perhaps we should have it repeated.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Was it about the presence of soldiers?

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was the last response which

24    was given by the witness.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  When you told us, Mrs. Spahic, that you saw two

Page 7925

 1    soldiers, Mr. Stamp asked you whether that was on the place where you were

 2    injured at this playground and then you answered the question --

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not there, but before.  Not at

 4    that spot.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 6            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

 7            MR. STAMP:

 8       Q.   Let's again take it step by step.  You said you saw two soldiers.

 9    Where did you see two soldiers?

10       A.   We saw the two soldiers on the way to Dobrinja.

11       Q.   When you say, "on the way to Dobrinja," was that before you

12    reached into Dobrinja that you saw these two soldiers?

13       A.   When we got into Dobrinja, that is when we saw them.

14       Q.   About how far, if you can estimate the distance, from the place

15    where --

16       A.   Fifty metres, approximately.

17       Q.   Fifty metres from where?

18       A.   From the place where we were injured.

19       Q.   Where were these soldiers; could you tell us precisely?

20       A.   I don't know the names of the streets there.

21       Q.   Did you see any soldiers that morning on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

22    Street where the people were gathered for humanitarian aid?

23       A.   No, but before.

24       Q.   The soldiers that you saw before, about how long before did you

25    see them?  How long before you arrived at Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street did

Page 7926

 1    you see them?

 2       A.   Maybe five minutes before.

 3       Q.   And after you saw them, you walked for five minutes before you

 4    arrived at Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   At the playground where you had set up your goods for trading, did

 7    you see any soldiers or weapons there?

 8       A.   No, we didn't.

 9       Q.   When you saw these two soldiers, were you in Dobrinja or was it

10    before you reached into Dobrinja?

11       A.   In Dobrinja.

12       Q.   Thank you very much.

13            MR. STAMP:  Nothing further.  That is the examination-in-chief.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  The French booth didn't hear the last answer.

15            Mrs. Spahic, was the last answer you gave that you were in

16    Dobrinja when you saw these two soldiers?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  I hope this will clarify the question from the French

19    booth.

20            Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?  It will be

21    you, Mrs. Pilipovic, as I understand.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Spahic, you will now be examined by counsel for

24    the Defence.

25            Please proceed.

Page 7927

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                          Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Spahic.

 4       A.   Good morning.

 5       Q.   Can you confirm for us that on the 24th of February 1995 -- 1994 -

 6    I'm sorry - you gave a statement to the officials at the Public Security

 7    station in Sarajevo?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can you also confirm that on the 26th of June, 2001, you spoke to

10    the investigators of the OTP?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Is it true that you signed these two statements?

13       A.   Yes, it is.

14       Q.   And that you confirmed by placing your signature on the statement

15    that the contents of the statements accurately reflected what you had

16    stated?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you told us that you lived in the Novi Grad

19    municipality?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   In which street, please?

22       A.   In Partizanska Street.

23       Q.   Is it correct that this street is located in Pavle Goranin

24    neighbourhood?

25       A.   Yes, it is.

Page 7928

 1       Q.   Is your neighbourhood situated below the Mojmilo hill?

 2       A.   Yes, it is.

 3       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you spoke about 1994, and February the 4th, that is

 4    the day when you went to Dobrinja.  During 1992, 1993 and 1994, were you

 5    employed, please?

 6       A.   No, I was not.

 7       Q.   Were you employed before the outbreak of the conflict in Sarajevo?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Where did you work?

10       A.   In a school.

11       Q.   Where is the school located?

12       A.   Before the war, it was located in the area of Dobrosevici.

13       Q.   What part of Sarajevo is that in relation to your neighbourhood?

14       A.   Alija.

15       Q.   You told us that there were four members in your family, that you

16    have a husband and two sons?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   In 1992, 1993, and 1994, were your husband and your sons employed?

19       A.   No, they were not.

20       Q.   Were they members of the BH army?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   You said that you were wearing your son's flack jacket?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   As a member of the BH army, did your son have a uniform?

25       A.   Yes, he did.

Page 7929

 1       Q.   What about your other son and your husband, did they have a

 2    uniform, too?

 3       A.   Yes, they did.

 4       Q.   When did they join the BH army?

 5       A.   I don't know what year it was.

 6       Q.   If I may refresh your memory, was it in 1992 or 1993?

 7       A.   In 1993 or 1992.

 8       Q.   Which military unit were they members of, your husband and your

 9    sons?

10       A.   My son belonged to the corps, he was a member of the corps, and

11    then the fourth one -- I am sorry, I don't know.

12       Q.   Throughout the time that they were members of the BH army, did

13    they have a uniform?

14       A.   Yes, they did.

15       Q.   Did they have any weapons?

16       A.   Not much.

17       Q.   Can you tell us at what lines they were deployed as members of the

18    BH army?

19       A.   In Vares.

20       Q.   How often did they come home?

21       A.   My husband would be away for two months, but the sons came home

22    more often.

23       Q.   When did your sons come home?  You said that they came more

24    often.  How did they go home?

25       A.   On foot.

Page 7930

 1       Q.   Do you know how far their positions were from where you lived?

 2       A.   Some 200 metres away up there.

 3       Q.   You say "200 or 300 metres away."  Can you tell us --

 4       A.   Well, 300 metres away approximately.  I didn't measure the

 5    distance.

 6       Q.   You said 200 to 300 metres away.  Are you referring to the

 7    positions located in the vicinity of your house, where you lived?

 8       A.   Yes, yes, where we lived.

 9       Q.   You say that your sons were deployed at the positions which were

10    200 or 300 metres away from the place where you lived.  Do you know where

11    they were actually quartered as soldiers while they were there?

12       A.   They were accommodated in the houses up there, and in the cellars.

13       Q.   You say, "in the houses and the cellars."  Did anyone live in

14    those houses or were they empty?

15       A.   They were empty.

16       Q.   Do you know who used to live in those house since now they were

17    empty?

18       A.   I don't know.  These people had left, had fled.

19       Q.   You mentioned the neighbourhood of Pavle Goranin, and you said

20    that the positions were 200 to 300 metres from there.  Was there any

21    fighting going on in that part of town?

22       A.   Yes, there was.

23       Q.   How often would that fighting take place?

24       A.   Well, I don't know.  Every 10 or 15 days.  I don't know.

25       Q.   Did your sons tell you that the BH army was deployed at the

Page 7931

 1    Mojmilo hill?  Did you know that from them?

 2       A.   No, I did not.

 3       Q.   On that day when you set out for Dobrinja on the 4th of February,

 4    who was with you?

 5       A.   Fatima and Muskija.

 6       Q.   Are you referring to Fatima Sito?

 7       A.   Yes, I am.

 8       Q.   What about Azra, who you were referring to?

 9       A.   Azra Spahic.

10       Q.   And Muskija Pribinja, is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Before the 4th of February 1994, how often had you gone to

13    Dobrinja?

14       A.   I had never gone to Dobrinja before that.

15       Q.   So was that the first time that you went to Dobrinja?

16       A.   Yes, it was.

17            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is time for your

18    break, as far as I can tell.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't even have to ask you, Ms. Pilipovic.

20    Thank you for your assistance.

21            Mrs. Spahic, we will have a break of half an hour and then you

22    will be further examined by Ms. Pilipovic.

23                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

24                          --- Upon resuming at 11.01 a.m.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

Page 7932

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you told us before the break in answering my

 3    question that, on the 4th of February, 1994, it was the first time that

 4    you went to Dobrinja.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you confirmed that on the 26th of June, 2001, you

 7    gave a statement to the investigators of the OTP?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, from your statement that you gave on the 26th of

10    June, 2001 - this is page 02081011, paragraph 3 of the statement - I would

11    like to show you, read to you a part of your statement, and I would like

12    to ask you what is correct.

13       A.   I will tell you the truth.

14       Q.    "On that day, that day was not the first day I was going to

15    Dobrinja.  Before I went with some women there."

16       A.   I went to Dobrinja for the first time on that occasion.

17       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you said on the 26th of June, 2001, that you went to

18    Dobrinja before with some other women.  Could you please tell us what is

19    true?  Is it true what you are saying today or what you told the

20    investigator?

21       A.   What I told the investigator, I went --

22            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's comment:  The answer isn't

23    very clear.

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Your answer isn't very clear.

Page 7933

 1       A.   That is the first day that I went to Dobrinja.

 2       Q.   So you are confirming that it was that day that you went first

 3    time to Dobrinja?

 4       A.   That's correct.

 5       Q.   So what you are saying is that what you told the investigators

 6    that you went to Dobrinja before is not correct?

 7       A.   I did not go before.

 8       Q.   Could you answer why you told the investigators that you went to

 9    Dobrinja before for food?

10       A.   I don't remember.

11       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, when you gave the statement to the investigators of

12    the OTP, did you speak to them in your own language?

13       A.   Yes, I did.

14       Q.   When you finished the interview, what you said, was it read back

15    to you?

16       A.   Yes, it was.

17       Q.   Did you sign that what you said was true?

18       A.   Yes, I did sign.

19       Q.   So once again, could you explain to us what is the truth?

20       A.   The truth is --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, you made your point.  Please proceed.

22            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you told us today that on that day, the 4th of

24    February, you went to Dobrinja with Muskija Pribinja, Azra Spahic and

25    Fatima Sito?

Page 7934

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, in your statement that you gave to the investigators

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11       Q.   So she was already there when you arrived?

12       A.   That's correct.

13       Q.   So on that day, she did not go together with you from your house

14    to Dobrinja?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Could you tell us why did you say in your statement that you went

17    with her?

18       A.   I don't remember that I said that in my statement that she went

19    with us.  We met her there.

20       Q.   So you are now confirming that what I have just told you, read

21    from your statement, that you went with her, that is not correct?

22       A.   No, she did not go with us.

23       Q.   On that day when you went to Dobrinja, could you tell us which

24    road did you take to get to Dobrinja?

25       A.   We went from Mojmilo.  We went through connecting corridors

Page 7935

 1    between trenches.

 2       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you went -- you said you went through trenches,

 3    corridor trenches?

 4       A.   That's right, up to a point.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us about these trenches, these corridors?  Was this

 6    also used by the army?

 7       A.   Yes, they were.

 8       Q.   Could you tell us, after you went through these trenches, how did

 9    you get to Dobrinja?

10       A.   We went through the buildings, in between the buildings.

11       Q.   These trenches that you mentioned through which you went, you said

12    that the army used them.  Could you tell us which army?

13       A.   Yes.  I don't know which army it was.  We went through the

14    trenches, but I don't know which army was using them.

15       Q.   On the way to Dobrinja, while you were going through the trenches,

16    did you see soldiers?

17       A.   No, we did not.

18       Q.   The houses that you mentioned that this is where the positions

19    were and where your sons were on the line, could you tell us how long did

20    your sons spend on those positions, on those lines on the houses?

21       A.   They spent there a lot of the time.

22       Q.   When you say, "a lot," do you mean to say all the time, day and

23    night?

24       A.   That's correct.

25       Q.   So they spent all that time on the positions?

Page 7936

 1       A.   That's correct.

 2       Q.   Could you confirm that they slept there and ate there?

 3       A.   That is right, yes, up there in those houses.

 4       Q.   Do you know where the HQ was of their unit?

 5       A.   Of the younger one?

 6       Q.   When you said, "the younger," what do you mean?  In relation to

 7    Mojmilo hill, where was it?

 8       A.   Down there, Mladjani.  It is a settlement, it is a locality down

 9    from Mojmilo.

10       Q.   It is from Dobrinja or from the other side?

11       A.   It is facing Dobrinja.

12       Q.   Asked by my learned colleague, you said that it was 50 metres from

13    where you were on this plateau and where the shell landed, you said that

14    it was 50 metres from there that you met two soldiers?

15       A.   It was a little bit before that plateau that we saw these two

16    soldiers.

17       Q.   Were these BH army soldiers?

18       A.   Yes, I suppose so.  We didn't ask them.

19       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, did you speak to those soldiers?

20       A.   We did.

21       Q.   If I tell you that in your statement you said there were three

22    Bosnian soldiers --

23       A.   There were two.

24       Q.   When you say that you spoke to them, could you tell us what you

25    spoke about?

Page 7937

 1       A.   They asked us where we were going.

 2       Q.   What did you tell us -- what did you tell them?

 3       A.   We told them that we had to go and get some flour.

 4       Q.   Did they warn you that you should not be going to Dobrinja?

 5       A.   They said we should better be hungry than go there.

 6       Q.   Did they tell you that it was better to stay hungry than to go

 7    there?

 8       A.   Well, when they know there is going to be firing, they told us we

 9    better get back.

10       Q.   When I tell you that in your statement on page 2, 012 document,

11    that the soldiers told you that Dobrinja was a very dangerous place

12    because of intensive shelling and firing which was happening there all the

13    time, can you confirm that this is what they said?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Did they try and talk you out of going to Dobrinja?

16       A.   They tried to talk us out of it, but we had to get some food for

17    our children.

18       Q.   On that day, on the way from your street towards Dobrinja, did you

19    hear some shooting?

20       A.   Yes, we heard shooting.  There was whistling, bullets were

21    whistling past us, shells landing.

22       Q.   Can you confirm that on that day in that area where you were

23    moving in, was there combat?

24       A.   I don't know where combat was.  There were shells.  I don't know.

25       Q.   Can you confirm that you heard?

Page 7938

 1       A.   We heard shooting, firing.

 2       Q.   In the part of town where you lived, in the locality of Pavle

 3    Goranin, was there a school?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us in relation to your settlement, your locality,

 6    how far is Alipasino Polje?

 7       A.   About 300 metres.

 8       Q.   Do you know whether in that part of town there were schools?

 9       A.   There were no schools anywhere.

10       Q.   When you say, "there were no schools anywhere," are you trying to

11    say that the schools were not operating at the time?

12       A.   They were not working at the time, no.

13       Q.   Do you know whether there were soldiers stationed in those schools

14    in that part of town?

15       A.   I don't know.  I don't know anything about that.  I don't know.

16       Q.   In the part of town as you were going towards Dobrinja, apart

17    from the trenches, were there also barricades in that part of town towards

18    Alipasino Polje?

19       A.   I don't know.  We did not go in that area.  We didn't dare to.

20       Q.   I think that you answered in the examination-in-chief that it was

21    sunny weather but that there was some fog?

22       A.   Well, there was some sun and, yes, there was a little bit of fog.

23       Q.   In your statement that you gave the investigator, you said it was

24    a fine and sunny day, with good visibility.

25       A.   It was that, too, and it was -- there was some fog as well.

Page 7939

 1       Q.   How long did you -- did it take you to go from the place you lived

 2    to the place where you went to barter for flour?

 3       A.   One hour.

 4       Q.   Did you and your friends that you went to Dobrinja on that day,

 5    did you receive information in any way that there would be distribution of

 6    humanitarian aid on that day in Dobrinja?

 7       A.   No, we did not.

 8       Q.   Did you know that before, there was distribution of humanitarian

 9    aid in Dobrinja?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Could you tell us who told you that you would be able to barter

12    for flour in Dobrinja?

13       A.   Well, some neighbours went before and they told us that it was

14    possible to do.

15       Q.   Did they tell you that there would be distribution of humanitarian

16    aid?

17       A.   No, they did not.

18       Q.   When you arrived at Dobrinja in that part of plateau that we saw

19    on the video, could you tell us how many people were in that plateau, in

20    that area?

21       A.   There were about a dozen.  Ten or so.

22       Q.   Could you tell us, when you heard the first shell falling, in

23    relation to that plateau, where did it fall?

24       A.   It fell near the buildings.

25       Q.   Are you telling us that the first shell landed behind the

Page 7940

 1    building?

 2       A.   It landed -- it fell on the building.

 3       Q.   Were you able to see that?

 4       A.   We only heard people crying out for help.

 5       Q.   So you didn't see the shell?

 6       A.   We could see where it had fallen in the flat, but we only heard

 7    the cry for help.

 8       Q.   You confirm to us today that after 15 -- that 15 minutes later,

 9    you were nearby when the second shell landed?

10       A.   That's correct.

11       Q.   Could you tell us from your friends who were with you?

12       A.   Muskija, Azra and Fatima, and there were others.  There was also

13    Zumreta, and there were others whose names I don't know.

14       Q.   Could you tell us about the injuries that your friend sustained?

15       A.   Azra had a thigh injury and Zumreta had an injury in her right

16    leg.  Fatima was hit in the head and the leg.

17       Q.   You told us that you were wounded as well.

18       A.   That's correct.

19       Q.   Could you tell us what injuries did you sustain?

20       A.   I was lower -- right lower leg and right arm.

21       Q.   You said that you were in Dobrinja hospital?

22       A.   That's correct.

23       Q.   Did you receive a medical certificate that you received treatment?

24       A.   Yes, we did.

25       Q.   Did you give your medical documentation to the OTP investigators?

Page 7941

 1       A.   No, we did not.  Nobody asked for it.

 2       Q.   Considering that we are talking about the time of armed conflict

 3    in Sarajevo, could you tell us, in the part of town where you lived, what

 4    was the water supply situation?

 5       A.   Very bad.

 6       Q.   When you say, "bad," could you elaborate on that?

 7       A.   We did not have water so we went to the Novi Grad municipality at

 8    night.

 9       Q.   When you had no water?

10       A.   We didn't have water.  We had to go and fetch it.

11       Q.   For how long did you have no water during the day or during the

12    week?

13       A.   We had no water.  It would happen perhaps for a month or two in

14    that settlement.  We did not have water.

15       Q.   Could you confirm that the tank for supplying water in that part

16    of town was in Mojmilo?

17       A.   It was in Vrace.

18       Q.   So you don't know that the tank that was supplying water was in

19    Mojmilo?

20       A.   No, I don't know.  They told us it was from Vrace.  I don't know

21    where it was.

22       Q.   When you say you were told that it was from Vrace, who told you?

23       A.   Well, when it was war until they would let it -- until they would

24    switch it on in Vrace, we wouldn't have water.

25       Q.   Could you tell us how did you get electricity?

Page 7942

 1       A.   We did not, we had no electricity.

 2       Q.   When you say that you had no electricity, could you tell us

 3    during which period you had no electricity?

 4       A.   We had no electricity for a year.

 5            MR. STAMP:  Before my friend proceeds to the next question, I am

 6    wondering if the record here is correct at line 44 -- at page 44, line 8.

 7    I think I heard the answer being, "It was Vrace."  Question:  Could you

 8    confirm that the tank for supplying water in that part of town was in

 9    Mojmilo?"  And I think I heard the answer being, "It was in Vrace."

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Which might be confusing because the word "Vares" has

11    been used today before and, as I take it, referring to a different area.

12            Could you please clarify this with the witness?

13            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, in response to a question that I put to you

15    regarding the shortage of water, you said that they -- you didn't have

16    water because they didn't switch it on at Vrace.  Are you telling us that

17    Vrace is the location in which they said that there was no water?

18       A.   Yes, that is what they said.  For as long as they didn't switch

19    it on at Vrace, we didn't have water.

20       Q.   Do you have any knowledge about a water tank at Vrace?

21       A.   That's what they said, but I don't know, I am not sure, for our

22    neighbourhood, that is.

23       Q.   You told us that your sons were deployed at some 300 to 400 metres

24    away from where you lived and that they were accommodated in houses

25    there.  Can you tell us how long this line was along which the houses that

Page 7943

 1    they were using were situated?

 2       A.   I don't know about that.  All I know is that they were

 3    accommodated in the basements of those houses.  But we didn't move around

 4    in that area.

 5       Q.   You told us about the area where the houses were and where the BH

 6    army was along those lines, which were 300 to 400 metres away from your

 7    house.  Do you know whether the VRS forces were deployed in the vicinity?

 8       A.   Yes, they were.  They were at Lukavica.

 9       Q.   When your sons came home, you said it was always for two months?

10       A.   One month or two months, but they wouldn't stay very long.  They

11    just came to change their clothes.

12       Q.   When they came home, were they armed?

13       A.   No, they were not.

14       Q.   In your neighbourhood, were there any troops there?

15       A.   No, they were not.

16       Q.   So it is your testimony that the troops were some 300 to 400

17    metres away from where you lived?

18       A.   Yes, or maybe even further than that.  I don't know.

19       Q.   On that day when you went to Dobrinja on the 4th of February,

20    1994, you said that your friends had been wounded on that day.  Do you

21    know how many people were killed or wounded on that day?

22       A.   28 of us were wounded.

23       Q.   Do you know if anyone got killed?

24       A.   I know that these two women got killed and a young man -- two

25    young men.

Page 7944












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 7945

 1       Q.   You said that two women and two young men were killed.  Do you

 2    know whether these two young men were there at the very spot where the

 3    incident occurred?

 4       A.   Yes, they were.  They were boys.  I saw them, but I don't know

 5    their names.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes the

 7    cross-examination of the witness, but with your permission, we should like

 8    to tender witness statements in evidence, but we do not have copies at

 9    this point.  We will make copies and tender it later on.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I notice that you have read a few lines of the

11    witness statement.  Could you please indicate what would be the specific

12    reason why you would like to tender the whole statement, because we

13    usually proceed in a way that --

14            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

15    like to tender only two pages of the statement and two paragraphs from the

16    statement which the witness confirmed, for the purposes of credibility.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stamp, is there any --

18            MR. STAMP:  I would know the purpose of tendering two pages.  The

19    statement itself is really two pages.  Perhaps the portion that counsel

20    feels important could just be read, and I think they were read.  I don't

21    think it is necessary to tender the entire statement.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, that was my question as

23    well.

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That is fine, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  You pointed at...

Page 7946

 1            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That is fine, Your Honour.  It is

 2    okay.  Thank you.  We have no further questions for the witness.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the

 4    witness?

 5            MR. STAMP:  Just a couple matters of clarification, if it pleases

 6    you.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 8                          Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

 9       Q.   You said that you know that two young women were killed.  Do you

10    know the names of these two young women?

11       A.   Fatima and Muskija.

12       Q.   I take it that those were the two women that accompanied you?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   You said there were two young men, boys, you later indicated?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Where did you see them?

17       A.   We saw them not very far from us, maybe three metres to the left.

18    They were killed, but I don't know their names.

19            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Nothing further.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

21                          Questioned by the Court:

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Spahic, I have a few questions for you.  The

23    first is that you told us that your husband was at Vares and that --

24       A.   Yes.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  -- he was away for two months.  Could you tell us

Page 7947

 1    where Vares is?  Is that close to your house or is that far away?

 2       A.   Well, it is far away.  It is far.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Is it outside the city of Sarajevo or is it --

 4       A.   Yes, yes, outside the city of Sarajevo.  Behind the mountain, the

 5    Treskavica mountain.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you have told us that you used trenches

 7    while going to Dobrinja, trenches that were used by the military as well.

 8    You also told us that you did not see any military in these trenches.

 9    Could you please explain to us exactly what you mean by "trenches," the

10    trenches you used while going to Dobrinja?

11       A.   Because we wanted to hide from the shells.  It was a dangerous

12    area because of the proximity of Lukavica.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but could you tell us exactly what you

14    understand by "trenches."

15       A.   Those trenches had been dug up so that the military could use

16    them.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so they are not built-up trenches, but they are

18    dug-up trenches?

19       A.   Yes, dug out.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  They are not used by military at the moment when you

21    used them to go to Dobrinja; is that true?

22       A.   We didn't see the soldiers at the time in those trenches, but we

23    had seen them before.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you know of any other trenches closer to

25    the confrontation line with the opposite armed forces?

Page 7948

 1       A.   No, no, I did not.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Then, my next question is:  You told us that you

 3    were warned by the soldiers you spoke to about the firing, the shelling

 4    in Dobrinja, that was why Dobrinja was a dangerous place to go, they told

 5    you.  Could you tell us in the place where you lived that was in Pavle

 6    Goranin, as far as I understand, was there frequent shelling as well or

 7    was there never shelling or -- ?

 8       A.   Yes, yes.  Half of the houses are gone.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  So I do understand that apart from Dobrinja, a

10    dangerous place, in your place there was shelling at -- with what

11    frequency?  Could you tell us?  Once a year?  Once a month?  Once a day?

12       A.   Every other day or once in three days, one of the houses would be

13    destroyed.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  My last question to you is:  You told us that you had

15    no water in the place where you lived, apart from when someone turned on

16    the water from, as you told us, from Vrace.  That's what they told you.

17    Could you tell us, Vrace, was that controlled by which party to the

18    conflict?

19       A.   I don't know.  I think that the area of Vrace was shelled from

20    Lukavica.  I believe that was the case.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  You tell us that it was shelled from the area of

22    Lukavica, but do you know who was in control of Vrace?  Was it held by the

23    BH army or the ABiH army or was it held by the Republika Srpska or

24    --

25       A.   The army of Republika Srpska.

Page 7949

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for your answer, Mrs. Spahic.  You have not

 2    only answered --

 3            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President, there is just one, if I may, area which

 4    I respectfully ask to ask about it, and it is an area which arose in

 5    respect of an area which you asked.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  If it is in relation to a question I asked, I will

 7    grant leave to put an additional question to the witness.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                          Further re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

10       Q.   You said that you had --

11            MR. STAMP:  If I may just have a moment to get the verbatim

12    response.

13       Q.   You said, "We didn't see any soldiers at the time in those

14    trenches but you had seen them before."  Can you understand from that that

15    the soldiers which you refer to as having seen that day, you saw them

16    before you reached to the trenches?

17       A.   When we came out of the trenches, we saw them.

18       Q.   And could you say exactly where those trenches are?

19       A.   Below Mojmilo.

20       Q.   And you saw these soldiers when you came out of the trenches below

21    Mojmilo, is that what we are to understand?

22       A.   Yes.

23            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much.  That is all, may it please you,

24    Your Honours.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  May I also ask you for one clarification, then.

Page 7950

 1                          Questioned by the Court:

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  When you said you had seen soldiers before in the

 3    trenches, do you mean to say on that same day or on another day?

 4       A.   We saw these soldiers when we came out of the trenches.  Whether

 5    they had been in the trenches, we don't know.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand.

 7            Ms. Pilipovic, you have an additional question?

 8            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Just to clarify, Your Honour, to

 9    follow up on your question.

10                          Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

11       Q.   Mrs. Spahic, you told us that the trenches were located below

12    Mojmilo.

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And that you came across these soldiers there.  The area of

15    Mojmilo, this particular area of Mojmilo, is it facing -- does it face

16    Dobrinja?

17       A.   Lukavica.  I am sorry, I don't understand you.  It is facing

18    Lukavica.

19       Q.   So how far is it from Dobrinja?  Did the Lukavica road go in

20    between?  Was that the division line?

21       A.   Yes, the Lukavica road divided these two areas.

22       Q.   Was it necessary for you to cross the street when going from

23    Lukavica and one would immediately find oneself in Dobrinja?

24       A.   No, we didn't go there.  We didn't dare go along the Lukavica road

25    because of the shooting.

Page 7951

 1       Q.   As for these soldiers who stopped you, where exactly did you cross

 2    the street?  How did you reach Dobrinja?

 3       A.   It was coming from the direction of Mojmilo that we crossed over

 4    to Dobrinja.

 5       Q.   When you said you crossed over to Dobrinja from Mojmilo, can you

 6    be more precise, please?   Which particular street did you take?

 7       A.   Well, we walked in between buildings there.  I don't know about

 8    the street.

 9       Q.   In order to reach Dobrinja, was it necessary for you to cross the

10    Lukavica road?

11       A.   No, we didn't cross that road.

12       Q.   What street did you have to cross coming from the direction of

13    Mojmilo in order to reach Dobrinja?

14       A.   I don't know the names of these streets.

15            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mrs. Spahic, you have answered all our questions,

17    questions from the Bench, questions from the Defence, questions from the

18    Prosecution.  It is important for us to hear the testimony of those who

19    have been present at the relevant times and the relevant places.  So,

20    therefore, I would like to thank you very much for coming your long way

21    from Sarajevo and for giving testimony in this court.  I know it is a long

22    way back as well.  So I wish you a safe trip home.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mrs. Spahic out

25    of the courtroom.

Page 7952

 1                          [The witness withdrew]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, am I right in understanding that we

 3    only have the video played P3281.E, and that is admitted in evidence as

 4    far as it was not yet admitted in evidence because it has

 5    been used before, as far as I understand, part of it, and the second part

 6    which is relevant for this testimony is -- I hear that it is a new exhibit

 7    and it will be used again a later stage of the proceedings.  So it is

 8    admitted into evidence.

 9            Mr. Stamp.

10            MR. STAMP:  The next witness, if we can proceed to that, is

11    Muhamed Kapetanovic.  Can he be brought into the court.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  If we want to ask the usher, we have to wait first

13    until he is back.

14            MR. STAMP:  In the interim, I understand that the procedure in

15    respect to the --

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher -- unless you need much time, Mr. Stamp?

17            MR. STAMP:  No, no, I don't need much time.  There was an issue I

18    mentioned this morning in respect to the 92 bis (C) statements of the

19    deceased witness.  I understand the procedure here is that the statements

20    be formally tendered to the Court, in court, on the record.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but are these -- is this one of the deceased

22    witnesses we --

23            MR. STAMP:  Two deceased witnesses.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  That's Mr. Sasi [phoen] and Mr. Sopi.  You know that

25    there is an appeal pending on the issue.

Page 7953

 1            MR. STAMP:  Yes.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  I would rather discuss first with my colleagues on

 3    how to proceed.  As far as I understand, we have certified an appeal and,

 4    as far as I understand, the appeal, meanwhile, has been lodged.  So I

 5    don't know what is the best way of dealing with it.  But I will discuss

 6    this with my colleagues and I will let you know.

 7            MR. STAMP:  Very well, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the next

 9    witness.

10                          [Trial Chamber confers]

11                          [The witness entered court]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic, I presume.

13    Mr. Kapetanovic, can you hear me in a language you understand?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Before giving testimony in this court,

16    Mr. Kapetanovic, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

17    solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and

18    nothing but the truth.  The text of this solemn declaration will be handed

19    out to you now by the usher, and may I invite you to make that

20    declaration.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.  Please be seated,

24    Mr. Kapetanovic.

25                          WITNESS:  MUHAMED KAPETANOVIC

Page 7954

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kapetanovic, you will first be examined by

 3    counsel for the Prosecution.

 4            Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

 5            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                          Examined by Mr. Stamp:

 7       Q.   Could you please state your name.

 8       A.   Muhamed Kapetanovic.

 9       Q.   And what is your date of birth, Mr. Kapetanovic?

10       A.   24th March, 1984.

11       Q.   In 1994, where were you living?

12       A.   In Sarajevo.

13       Q.   Where in Sarajevo was this?

14       A.   In the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood.

15       Q.   Do you remember the street name?

16       A.   Cetinska, house number 2.

17       Q.   Is that presently the name of that street?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   What is the name of it now?

20       A.   Goeteova Street, Goethe Street.

21       Q.   And who did you live with at that time?

22       A.   With my father, my mother and my sister.

23       Q.   Now, can you tell us about the circumstance in which you lived in

24    that area?  Firstly, did you notice anything about shelling in respect of

25    that area?

Page 7955

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Was this area shelled at all?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   About how frequently while you were there?

 5       A.   Two to three times a week.

 6       Q.   Now, the area, the building that you lived at, is it -- what type

 7    of building is it?

 8       A.   It was a high-rise residential building with 16 floors.

 9       Q.   And what was in front of that building, can you say?

10       A.   There was a parking area in front of the building.

11       Q.   And you said that area was sometimes shelled.  Could you tell us a

12    little bit more precisely, what part of the area was shelled?

13       A.   Some of the shells hit the buildings and some landed in the

14    vicinity around the buildings.

15       Q.   Now, can you recall the 22nd of January, 1994?

16       A.   Yes, I can.

17       Q.   Did you go anywhere that day?

18       A.   Yes.  I went out to play with my friends.

19       Q.   Can you remember where you went to play?

20       A.   Yes, I can.  We went to play outside the building.

21       Q.   Is there any particular place outside the building that you went

22    to play?

23       A.   Near the parking area.

24       Q.   Can you remember the names of your friends?

25       A.   Their names were Daniel Juranic, Admir Ahmethodzic, Elvir

Page 7956

 1    Ahmethodzic, and the fourth one, I cannot remember his name.  Actually,

 2    his name was Kenan.  I don't remember his family name.

 3       Q.   I am going to ask you to give us those names again, but do it

 4    little bit more slowly, because I don't see the names on my record.  Just

 5    tell us the names again slowly of the friends that you went to play with.

 6       A.   Daniel Juranic, Admir Ahmethodzic, Ahmethodzic Elvir, and the name

 7    of the fourth was Kenan.  I don't remember his family name.  Elmir and

 8    Admir Ahmethodzic.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  How did you play?  What did you play outside the

10    parking lot?

11       A.   We were sledding in the snow.

12       Q.   And what was the weather like that day?

13       A.   It was a sunny day.

14       Q.   And can you tell us what happened as you were there sledding?

15       A.   We were sledding and then we suddenly heard that shells were

16    falling.  We knew that it was nearby because of the loud noise, the

17    explosion, and then we got very scared and started to run away.  But

18    before we managed to get to the entrance of the building, a shell landed

19    behind us.  Daniel Juranic was killed.  I was injured in my head, leg and

20    arm, and then the Admir and Elvir were also injured.

21       Q.   Now, you said -- I have it here that you said that shells were

22    falling and then you heard a loud noise?  How many shells, shell or

23    shells, did you hear before you started to run?

24       A.   I think it was one or two, for sure.  One or two shells.

25       Q.   How far from your apartment building were you playing when you

Page 7957

 1    heard these shells explode?

 2       A.   About 100 metres, approximately.

 3       Q.   Now, did all of you run to your apartment building or did some of

 4    you run?

 5       A.   We all started to run towards the building, towards our building,

 6    except for Kenan, who went into the next door building.

 7       Q.   You said another shell landed behind you.  Can you say about where

 8    that shell landed?

 9       A.   Approximately about 10 metres, perhaps less, behind Daniel, who

10    was the last one.

11       Q.   When it landed, where were you?

12       A.   I was about 10 metres from the entrance hall of the building.

13       Q.   And you said you were injured.  Can you tell us about your

14    injuries?   What was the nature of your injury?

15       A.   The worst was the wound on my leg.  The doctors fought for a long

16    time to save my leg.  That is why I had to go to Italy to be treated,

17    while the other injuries that I had on my arm and face were not quite so

18    serious.

19       Q.   Very well.  After you were injured that day, were you taken

20    anywhere?

21       A.   Yes.  I was in Italy to be treated, but before that, I was

22    administered first aid in Dobrinja.  And after that, I went to the Kosevo

23    hospital.

24       Q.   And how long did you remain in the Kosevo hospital?

25       A.   About 40 days.

Page 7958

 1       Q.   And you said you went to Italy for treatment.  How long did you

 2    stay in Italy?

 3       A.   Two years.

 4       Q.   Briefly, what type of treatment did you get for your leg?

 5       A.   Well, because in Sarajevo there were no means for my treatment, I

 6    had to go there and I was given treatment to save -- to be able to save my

 7    leg.  I had seven operations in total.

 8       Q.   At the area that you were playing that day, were there any

 9    soldiers there or any military activity going on in that area in front of

10    your building?

11       A.   No, there was nobody.  It was a quiet day.  There was no shelling

12    on that day.

13       Q.   Now, do you know of any facility in your neighbourhood that is

14    associated with the military?

15       A.   Yes.  In -- there was an annex building and it was a detachment.

16    It was a -- local troops were stationed there called Kulin Ban.

17       Q.   Where was this in relation to the front of your apartment where

18    you were injured?

19       A.   This staff was located behind my building.

20       Q.   How far from your building was it located?

21       A.   150 metres, approximately.

22       Q.   Do you know the name of the place that it was located at?

23       A.   Could you please repeat the question?  I didn't understand it.

24       Q.   Do you know the name of the place or the street that it was

25    located at?

Page 7959

 1       A.   The street was called Rade Koncara Square.  That's what it used to

 2    be called.  The name has changed since.

 3       Q.   What is the name of it now?

 4       A.   I think it is Nezavisnosti Trg, Independence Square.

 5       Q.   You said local troops were stationed there.  About how many -- why

 6    do you say local troops were stationed there?

 7       A.   There was an APC in front of their staff.  People came there in

 8    uniforms, and from there, they most probably went to the front lines.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  You said an APC.  What do you mean?  Could you

10    describe what you mean by an APC?

11       A.   They made these APCs, these armoured vehicles, manually.  They put

12    metal sheeting on top of the glass windows in order to protect them.

13    These were armoured vehicles.

14       Q.   They put metal sheetings on top of the glass windows.  Were these

15    armed regular vehicles before with glass windows?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   When had you seen this vehicle at Rade Koncara square?

18       A.   Last time, you mean?

19       Q.   May I ask it differently?   Did you see the vehicle at Rade

20    Koncara square once or more than once?

21       A.   More than once.

22       Q.   Approximately how frequently did you see it there?

23       A.   About two to three times a week.

24       Q.   And when was the last time you saw it?

25       A.   Four or five days.  Before I was wounded.

Page 7960

 1       Q.   Now, did you obtain a medical record from the Kosevo hospital?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And you gave these records to an investigator of this Tribunal?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, I ask to

 6    tender to the witness Exhibit P2174, and to the Court, that exhibit as

 7    well as P2174.1.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

 9            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much.

10       Q.   Is -- have you had a look at that document?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Is that a copy of your medical record from Kosevo hospital?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   You said you heard one --

15            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much.  You may take that document

16    away.

17                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

18            MR. STAMP:  May I proceed?

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I thought the last -- I saw on my screen

20    Prosecution counsel confer so I was just waiting.

21            MR. STAMP:  Very well.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

23            MR. STAMP:

24       Q.   You said you heard one, maybe two, shells explode before you

25    started running.  Could you say where you heard the explosions coming

Page 7961

 1    from?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Very well.  Now, the place where the shell which injured you

 4    landed was somewhere behind you, you said.  You were about 10 metres from

 5    your building and the shell landed about 10 metres behind you; is that

 6    correct?

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry.  There is a

 8    problem of interpretation.  I think it is the French booth.  I am sorry,

 9    Mr. Stamp.  But we have to be very certain about the indications that

10    Mr. Stamp gave.  What has been interpreted in the French booth is not what

11    Mr. Stamp asked in relation to the number of metres.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Stamp, I didn't follow the French

13    translation, so I still do not know what the difference was.  But if you

14    would please repeat your question and I will change to the French

15    channel.

16            MR. STAMP:  I will rephrase it.

17       Q.   How far were you away from your building when the shell exploded?

18       A.   Ten metres.

19       Q.   And you said earlier that the shell exploded about ten metres

20    behind Daniel, who was the last one.  Do you remember that?

21       A.   Yes.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry.  We

23    have problems in the interpretation.  What Mr. Stamp said is that the

24    shell exploded ten metres behind Daniel, but again, that is not what is

25    coming from the French booth.

Page 7962

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think we have to be very

 3    precise with regards to this description.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  I will just read slowly what the question was, and

 5    would you please also listen carefully, Mr. Kapetanovic.  The question

 6    was:  "How far were you away from your building when the shell exploded?"

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ten metres.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then you said earlier that, "The shell

 9    exploded about ten metres behind Daniel, who was the last one.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Everything is clarified, I think.

12            Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

13            MR. STAMP:

14       Q.   So from that, could you --

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone counsel, please.

16            MR. STAMP:

17       Q.   From that description, can you recall approximately how far from

18    the entrance of your building the shell exploded?

19       A.   About 20 metres.

20       Q.   And from the front of your building to the back, what is that

21    distance in metres?  Can you estimate it?  From the front of the building

22    to the exit at the back of the building, what is that distance?

23       A.   About 50 metres.

24       Q.   And what is immediately behind your building?  Could you please

25    tell the Court.

Page 7963

 1       A.   Well, this Kulin Ban staff was there.

 2       Q.   To get from the back exit of your building to Rade Koncara Square,

 3    where the staff was, how would you travel, or would you travel through

 4    anywhere in particular?

 5       A.   Yes.  We -- there was a window that we broke in the cellar, so we

 6    would go through this window and then you would get to the Kulin Ban.  So

 7    it would be through the cellar.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, may I just interfere for one moment.

 9    Your answer to the question:  "How far it was from the front of the

10    building to the exit at the back of the building," what was your answer

11    exactly?  Was it 15 metres or 50 metres?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 50.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  50.  Yes.  Please proceed.

14            MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

15       Q.   When you exit your building at the back, immediately as you step

16    out the cellar or the back exit, where would you step into?

17       A.   That would be the ground behind the building.  It would be the

18    opposite side of where I was wounded.

19       Q.   Tell us about that ground behind the building.  What exactly is

20    that ground behind the building?

21       A.   Before it used to be a school yard.  It was a basketball area of

22    the school.

23       Q.   How wide was this ground -- from the back exit of your building to

24    the building across the ground, how far was that?

25       A.   15 metres, approximately.

Page 7964

 1       Q.   And on the other side of that ground, what did you have there?

 2       A.   There was the building where Kulin Ban was.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Now, you said the ground was used as a playground.

 4    Was it paved or not?

 5       A.   Some parts have asphalt and the other parts have grass.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Your building, you said, was a 17-storey building.

 7    Were all the buildings on your street that high?

 8       A.   Yes.  Except where Kulin Ban was stationed, it was lower.  It had

 9    four or five storeys.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Now, in 19 -- I beg your pardon, the year 2001, did

11    you participate in a video recording with an OTP investigator?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And did you show that investigator the area that you were injured,

14    to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

15       A.   Yes.

16            MR. STAMP:  Mr. President, with your leave, and the leave of the

17    Court, may I ask to be played for the witness, P3281.F?

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, leave is granted.

19            MR. STAMP:  Could the Exhibit P3281.F be played.

20            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Will you please indicate by pointing

21    the general area where, to the best of your recollection, you and your

22    friends were playing on the 22nd of January 1994.

23            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

24            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Will you please show me by walking to

25    and standing on the spot where, to the best of your recollection, a shell

Page 7965

 1    landed which wounded you on the 22nd of January 1994.

 2            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 3            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Mr. Kapetanovic, will you now please

 4    show me by walking to and standing on the spot where, to the best of your

 5    recollection, you were located when you were wounded on the 22nd of

 6    January, 1994.

 7            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 8            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  I will now mark this spot with yellow

 9    paint and a figure X with a number 2 beside it.

10            Finally, will you please indicate by pointing the general

11    direction to the best of your recollection from which you ran after you

12    heard the first shell explode on the 22nd of January, 1994.

13            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

14            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  My question was quite clear.  I want

15    to know, please, from where you started and which -- first of all, point

16    to the direction from which you started, to the best of your recollection.

17            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

18            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  And please indicate, to the best of

19    your recollection, in which direction were you running.

20            "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

21            "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE:  Thank you."

22            MR. STAMP:

23       Q.   May I just, Witness, ask you about your injury.  You said you

24    spent two years in Italy, where you had to have several operations.  Do

25    you still have any physical effects as a result of your injury?

Page 7966

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   What is the nature of these physical effects?

 3       A.   The leg I was injured at is about two to two and-a-half

 4    centimetres shorter.  I have to use orthopaedic aids and I cannot do any

 5    sports, any contact sports.

 6       Q.   And how about psychological and mentally.  This incident occurred

 7    when you were quite young.  Do you have any enduring psychological

 8    effects as a result of this injury?

 9       A.   I don't think I have any.

10       Q.   Very good.  Now, with the leave of the Court, I would like to show

11    you, Witness, a photograph and this, Mr. President is P3678.C.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stamp, do you think we could finish this in

13    one or two minutes?   If not, we would perhaps rather first have the

14    break.

15            MR. STAMP:  Perhaps we can have the break.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kapetanovic, we will take a pause for 20 minutes

17    and we will then resume your examination.  Yes.

18            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                          --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

20                          --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, you were about to show a photograph --

22            MR. STAMP:  Photograph.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24            MR. STAMP:

25       Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, I am going to ask you to have a look at this

Page 7967












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 7968

 1    photograph.  Can you see clearly, Mr. Kapetanovic?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Can you make out some writings on the building which you see in

 4    the photograph now?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Where do you make out these writings?  Could you describe it,

 7    where you see these writing?

 8       A.   In the middle of the photograph, the name of the video club.  Is

 9    that what you had in mind?

10       Q.   Yes, it is.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

12            MR. STAMP:  I am wondering, Mr. President, if I may be allowed to

13    vacate counsel's role to have a look at his screen because it might well

14    be that the quality on his screen is better than the quality on my screen.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  That was one of the issues, I was just informed by

16    the Registrar that it could be changed.  I must say, I have a perfect

17    picture on my screen, and to my left and right-hand side, it is still

18    good.  I see Madam Registrar has a bad --

19            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  If you use computer evidence, it is much

20    better there.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  If it comes directly from your computer.  Yes, Mr.

22    Piletta-Zanin, what about your screen?

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For once, our screen is

24    excellent.  The witness has read out from the screen a moment ago.  We

25    can ask him once again.  He has read the word "discotheque" and we can ask

Page 7969

 1    him for clarification.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not "discotheque," but videotheque,

 3    a video club.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, since all our screens are clear, we can all

 5    verify that it is videotheque.  Please proceed, Mr. Stamp, if at least the

 6    quality of the image is good enough to proceed.  If there is anyone who

 7    has made your complaints -- I don't hear anyone, so please proceed.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9       Q.   The building where you see that sign, which building is that?

10       A.   It is the building at number 4 Cetinska Street.

11       Q.   Thank you.

12            MR. STAMP:  Could you turn the video clockwise?  Yes, to the

13    right.  Could you stop there, please.

14       Q.   This part of the video which you just saw, are these the apartment

15    buildings that you and your friends were running to?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. STAMP:  Could you continue in the same direction.  And stop

18    here.

19       Q.   If you look further down the street in front of you, which is in

20    the middle of this part of the photograph, do you know where Cetinska

21    Street stops?

22       A.   In the background of the photograph, to the left part of the

23    photograph, you see a yellow newsstand.  This is the end of Cetinska

24    Street.

25       Q.   That --

Page 7970

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stamp, I have some difficulties in following the

 2    answer.

 3            MR. STAMP:

 4       Q.   That newsstand is just adjacent to the sidewalk, to the paved

 5    part of the sidewalk?  Is that so?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            MR. STAMP:  I don't know if the Court has observed a structure

 8    adjacent to the paved part of the sidewalk.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you -- I see a yellow structure just

10    under a tree.  But I don't know whether that is what the witness was --

11    perhaps you could guide him with the cursor, to let him follow the cursor

12    and indicate where exactly he pointed at.

13            Could you please give, Mr. Kapetanovic, directions to the one who

14    is moving the cursor where you find this newsstand, and say by going to

15    the left or up or down so that we can better follow your answer.

16            MR. STAMP:

17       Q.   Do you see the cursor?  It is in the middle of the street.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Should it -- to find this newsstand, is it to the left or the

20    right?  Could you just direct us to find it?

21       A.   To the left.

22       Q.   And could you tell us if we have found it, please.

23       A.   Stop, yes.

24            MR. STAMP:  I think the witness is indicating a yellow structure

25    adjacent to the paved part of the sidewalk which seems to be under a

Page 7971

 1    tree, indicated.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would say at the fourth small grassy area, to

 3    the left of that.  Yes.

 4            Please proceed.

 5            MR. STAMP:

 6       Q.   Now, going passed the end of Cetinska Street and further down

 7    that road, which street would you go on to?

 8       A.   Klara Zetkin Street.

 9       Q.   Now, Klara Zetkin Street is still known by that name today, is it,

10    or has the name changed?

11       A.   The name has changed.  It is now Bosanska Street.

12       Q.   Thank you.

13            MR. STAMP:  Could you continue turning to the right, please.

14    Continue.  Stop here.

15       Q.   Is this a parking lot in front of your building that we have

16    just --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   We are going to turn slowly, and could you tell us where it is

19    that you were playing when we reach to it?  Can you do that?

20       A.   Yes.

21            MR. STAMP:  To the right.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, please.

23            MR. STAMP:

24       Q.   Can you say where, about where?  You could describe it by some

25    structure that is on the photograph.

Page 7972

 1       A.   Next to the green structure, to the right side of the photograph,

 2    next to this low-rise building.

 3            MR. STAMP:  Could you turn a little bit to the right.

 4       Q.   Are you referring to --

 5            MR. STAMP:  Could you stop, please.

 6       Q.   Are you referring to the green structure with a brown base, which

 7    is --

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            MR. STAMP:  Please turn to the beginning.  I am sorry.  Please go

10    in the original direction.  Thank you.  I think we have gone right around.

11       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Kapetanovic.  Is this photograph you have

12    just seen a photograph of the area in front of your apartment building

13    where you were injured?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Very good.

16            MR. STAMP:  We may take it off the screen.  Thank you.

17       Q.   I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about this playing area

18    to the back of your building.  About how big was it?  What was the size of

19    this playing area?

20       A.   It was quite big, but then again, not too big.

21       Q.   Very well.  What was the distance across the playing area from the

22    back of your building?

23       A.   I am sorry, I don't understand your question.

24       Q.   From the back of your building, if you were to cross the entire

25    playing area to reach the buildings at the opposite end of the playing

Page 7973

 1    area, what distance would that be?

 2       A.   100 to 150 metres.

 3       Q.   And the buildings across the playing area from the back of your

 4    building would be the buildings at Rade Koncara Square?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Thank you very much.

 7                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8            MR. STAMP:  That, Mr. President, Your Honours, is the evidence in

 9    chief for the Prosecution.  May it please you.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]  My colleague will conduct

14    the cross-examination of the witness.  I just wanted to know where this

15    360-degrees photograph was taken from.   I think the witness was asked at

16    two points to specify the location and it didn't come across very clear.

17    So I should like my learned friend from the Prosecution to specify exactly

18    from which vantage point the photograph was taken.

19            MR. STAMP:  It was taken from the location where the witness

20    indicated the shell fell, the shell which injured him.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, as far as I can see, the photograph could not

22    have been from the other location.

23            Ms. Pilipovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kapetanovic, you will now be examined by counsel

Page 7974

 1    for the defence.

 2            Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

 3            MS. PILIPOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kapetanovic.

 6       A.   Good afternoon.

 7       Q.   You testified today about a shelling incident in which you were

 8    wounded and in which Daniel Juranic, your friend, was killed, the incident

 9    in which a number of your friends were also wounded.  On that day when

10    this incident occurred, what was the weather like; can you tell us?

11       A.   It was a clear day.

12       Q.   Were there any other children and people moving around the area

13    at that time?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Were there any other children sledding at that place?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   They were in front of which entrance, which house number were they

18    in front of?

19       A.   Let me think.  They were in this other street that I mentioned.

20       Q.   Klara Zetkin?

21       A.   Yes, that is correct.

22       Q.   What is the name of your street now, the one that used to be

23    Cetinska Street?

24       A.   It is now called Goeteova Street.

25       Q.   So you were sledding in Cetinska Street and the other children

Page 7975

 1    were sledding in Klara Zetkin Street.  How far away from you were they?

 2       A.   About 300 metres away.

 3       Q.   You told us today that you were sledding, and you showed to us a

 4    green house on the photograph where it was.  You were there at that spot.

 5    Where exactly did the shell fall?

 6       A.   You mean the first one?

 7       Q.   Yes.

 8       A.   The first one fell in Klara Zetkin Street.

 9       Q.   Do you know outside which house number it was?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Do you know whether there were any children there as well?

12       A.   Yes, five children were killed in Klara Zetkin Street, and a

13    number of them were wounded.

14       Q.   From the place where you were, where you were sledding and you

15    said ran from in the direction of the street where you lived, Cetinska

16    number 4 --

17       A.   No, number 2.

18       Q.   Number two, I apologise.  Did you see the shell land from that

19    spot?

20       A.   No, I couldn't see it.

21       Q.   You only heard it fall?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   You told us that there were people around the area.  Do you know,

24    in light of the wounds that you sustained, if there were any other

25    persons, apart from those that you have mentioned, who were wounded from

Page 7976

 1    the shell that hit the area outside your building?

 2       A.   As far as I know, not many were wounded.

 3       Q.   What was the time distance between the first -- between these two

 4    impacts?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   So you cannot tell us how much time elapsed between the two?

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to repeat the

 8    question?   We didn't hear it. It Is either ten minutes or ten seconds.

 9            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Do you know whether on that day other shells hit that area of the

11    town where you lived?

12       A.   No.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Your previous answer was not well understood by the

14    interpreters.  Were you talking about ten seconds or ten minutes?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ten seconds.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

17            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I understood.

18    Thank you.

19       Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, is it correct that you gave a statement to OTP

20    investigators on the 12th of February, 2000?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Before that, did you have any other interviews to -- concerning

23    this incident?  I am referring to relevant officials.

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   When was that?

Page 7977

 1       A.   I don't remember.

 2       Q.   You told us today that the Kulin Ban detachment had its

 3    headquarters behind your building.

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   You used the word "detachment."  Do you know how many members this

 6    unit had?

 7       A.   No, I don't.

 8       Q.   Did you know that this was a detachment in the sense that it was a

 9    military formation or is it something that you heard from others?

10       A.   This is what I heard from others.

11       Q.   Did you used to see these soldiers?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Can you describe for us how they were dressed?

14       A.   At the beginning, they didn't have any weapons.  Later on, I

15    believe that they received uniforms.

16       Q.   What kind of uniforms?  Can you describe them for us, please.

17       A.   Camouflage uniforms.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  I just ask for a clarification.  Your question was,

19    Ms. Pilipovic, "Can you describe for us how they were dressed?"  And then

20    the answer was, "In the beginning they didn't have any weapons.  Later on,

21    I believe they received uniforms."

22            Is that what you answered, because it changes from dress to

23    weaponry and it seems a bit illogical to me, but it might be --

24            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that my question was how

25    they were dressed.

Page 7978

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was then your answer that, in the

 2    beginning, that they had -- didn't have any weapons or -- ?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that, at the beginning of the

 4    war, they didn't have weapons or uniforms.  Later on, they got them.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

 6            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Witness, you told us that they wore camouflage uniforms, but that

 8    at the beginning of the war they didn't have enough weapons.  Are you

 9    telling us that, later, they were better armed, they had more weapons?

10       A.   They had some kind of rifles for the purposes of defence.

11       Q.   Did you used to see these soldiers in this area and did you see

12    them with weapons?

13       A.   Yes, I did, because it was from there that they went to the front

14    line.

15       Q.   We will get to the front lines later on.  Let us now focus on the

16    building where these soldiers were accommodated.  Was it a residential

17    building?

18       A.   Yes, it was.  They were accommodated in the basement of this

19    building.

20       Q.   You are referring to the basement of a building located at Rade

21    Koncara Square?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   What house number was this, can you tell us?

24       A.   No, I don't know.

25       Q.   You spoke today about Rade Koncara Square and a school yard there?

Page 7979

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Are you telling us that there was a school in the area?

 3       A.   The school was located in the so-called C settlement, maybe five

 4    minutes away from where I lived.

 5       Q.   How far was the school from the building where this military

 6    formation was located?

 7       A.   Also four or five minutes away.

 8       Q.   You went to school at the time?

 9       A.   Yes, I was a student.

10       Q.   Did you attend classes at the time?

11       A.   No.  Actually, yes, but not in that particular school.  The

12    lessons were held in the basement of our building.

13       Q.   What was the name of the school?

14       A.   I forgot what the name used to be.  It is now called Mesa

15    Selimovic.

16       Q.   You said that you went to school but that you didn't actually go

17    to the school building.  Do you know whether the building of the school

18    was used by anyone at the time?

19       A.   No, as far as I know.

20       Q.   Do you know whether on this square where this headquarters were

21    and the school building, whether there were any other locations such as

22    police?  Did the police have their premises there?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Do you know if there was a Civil Defence headquarters there?

25       A.   No.

Page 7980

 1       Q.   Was humanitarian aid distributed in the area?  Was there a room

 2    which was used for that purpose that you went to, to get humanitarian aid?

 3       A.   We went to collect humanitarian aid in another building, at house

 4    number 3 in Cetinska Street.

 5       Q.   Is it your testimony that Cetinska 3 is not part of Rade Koncara

 6    Square?

 7       A.   No, Cetinska Street does enclose Rade Koncara Square from one side

 8    and Klara Zetkin encloses it from the other side.

 9       Q.   You spoke about the members of the Kulin Ban detachment.  Do you

10    know to which army the Kulin Ban formation belonged?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   When you say that they went to the front lines, do you know -- in

13    view of your age, then, do you know where the front lines were?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   In the statement that you gave to the investigators, you said that

16    you went to the front line with your father?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Could you tell us what part of town is that, where the front lines

19    were?

20       A.   It is a hill above the C phase.  It is above the street of Klara

21    Zetkin Street, and on the other side of the hill was the front line and we

22    went to the other side to get the wood because we didn't have any wood.

23       Q.   When you say "hill," can you tell us the name?

24       A.   Mojmilo.

25       Q.   The front lines on Mojmilo hill, could you tell us which army was

Page 7981

 1    there?

 2       A.   I don't know.  I mean, I don't get your question.

 3       Q.   Did you find out then when you went with your father to the front

 4    lines, which army held these front lines?  Was it the BH army or was it

 5    the army of Republika Srpska?

 6       A.   You didn't go all the way to the front lines.  We would go beneath

 7    the hill while the front lines were on the other side on top of

 8    the hill.  But I think they were held half and half.  Half was held by the

 9    BH army and half was held by the VRS army.

10       Q.   In the period of 1992, 1993, 1994, in that area, the area of your

11    settlement, did you hear that there was combat between these two armies?

12       A.   As far as I heard, yes.

13       Q.   Do you know whether -- or could you tell us how frequent these

14    combats were?

15       A.   I don't remember.

16       Q.   In your settlement, I am speaking specifically about Alipasino

17    Polje, Rade Koncara Square, could you tell us what was the electricity

18    supply like and water supply like?

19       A.   We had electricity occasionally, almost none, but for water we had

20    to go and fetch it to another settlement which is beneath the C phase

21    settlement.  This is where we had to go and fetch water.

22       Q.   When you say that there was electricity occasionally, can you

23    tell us what that means?  What does it mean, "occasionally"?

24       A.   What I mean is, perhaps two days a week, we would have

25    electricity.

Page 7982

 1       Q.   Do you know in the part of your settlement in Sarajevo, were there

 2    electricity cuts?

 3       A.   I don't know.  I was a child then.  I don't know.

 4       Q.   When you say that you went to fetch water in A phase settlement

 5    area, was that at that time the part called Trg Zavnobih?  Is that where

 6    you went to get the water?

 7       A.   I don't know whether that area I went to get water was called Trg

 8    Zavnobih.

 9       Q.   Is that now the International Friendship Square, Trg Prijateljstvo

10    [phoen]?

11       A.   I don't know.

12       Q.   Could you describe for us the  A phase, because we are talking

13    about

14    A, B, and C phase, what part of the settlement is that?

15       A.   Well, "A" would be the first part of the settlement going along

16    the tram track.  That would be the first part, that would be the "A"

17    phase.  And then the difference would be that "B" and "C" would be along

18    this square.

19       Q.   In relation to the "A" phase, how far is the television building

20    away from that?

21       A.   In that part is nearby, that would be opposite the television

22    building, and where we got the water, we fetch the water, was perhaps some

23    400, 500 metres from the television building.

24       Q.   We are talking about the television building.  Are we talking

25    about the Oslobodjenje building where television was, or some other

Page 7983

 1    building?

 2       A.   You mean the BH television?

 3       Q.   Yes.

 4       A.   Well it is in the A section, A phase.  It is in the municipality

 5    building.

 6       Q.   Is that the Oslobodjenje building?

 7       A.   No.  You mean the newspaper, Oslobodjenje?

 8       Q.   Yes.

 9       A.   No.  Oslobodjenje is a completely different part of town in

10    Nedzarici.

11       Q.   How far is your building from the TV building?

12       A.   Some 10, 15 minutes walk.

13       Q.   When you told us that you went to the vicinity of the front lines

14    with your father, in that part of the settlement and the direction that

15    you were going towards the front lines, were there trenches?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Did you notice whether in that part of the area near Mojmilo hill,

18    were there trenches?

19       A.   You mean now?

20       Q.   No, then.

21       A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

22       Q.   Apart from the soldiers that you identified as members of the

23    Kulin Ban unit in the area where you lived, in that settlement, were

24    there other soldiers that you saw?

25       A.   You mean other units?  You mean members of other units?

Page 7984

 1       Q.   Yes.

 2       A.   As far as I know, no, because Kulin Ban was some kind of local

 3    unit, I mean of that area, of that "A" section.

 4       Q.   Do you know whether in Rade Koncara Square there was a restaurant

 5    called "Stela"?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   And on that square, was there a coffee bar called Borsalino?

 8       Q.   Do you know, in the beginning of the conflict, in the part of the

 9    settlement where you lived at that time, were there so-called paramilitary

10    units?

11       A.   I don't recall.  I don't remember.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, may I remind you that in the beginning

13    of the conflict, the witness was eight years old.

14            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but he spoke

15    about the front lines, which is the reason why I asked him some other

16    questions as well.

17       Q.   Mr. Kapetanovic, when you spoke about your friends who were

18    injured, do you know about their injuries, I mean about Elvir and Admir?

19       A.   Admir's leg was amputated.  He had a high amputation of the left

20    leg.  And Admir also had an injury of the left leg -- of the lower leg.

21       Q.   Today, you clarified for us where you were at the moment that the

22    shell fell and your friend, Daniel, who was killed.  Could you tell us, at

23    that moment, where were Elvir and Admir?

24       A.   They were running in front of me.

25       Q.   When you described your position and that of your friends, could

Page 7985

 1    you tell us, is it possible to see where the shell fell?

 2       A.   What do you mean?

 3       Q.   Is there a trace from that shell that landed?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Could you describe, in relation to the location where you were,

 6    how far is the crater, so to speak, of that shell?

 7       A.   Ten metres from me, I mean.

 8       Q.   In relation to your friends?

 9       A.   I don't know.  We were very near each other.  There wasn't more

10    than one, two metres between us.

11       Q.   When you told us that you heard the first shell, could you tell us

12    when you found out that other girls and boys were injured or died?

13       A.   A few days later, when I came around to the hospital.

14       Q.   Were you together in the same hospital?

15       A.   You mean Admir and Elvir?

16       Q.   And other children.

17       A.   As far as I know, we weren't, but Admir and Elvir were in the

18    military hospital, but they were only there for two days and then they

19    were transferred urgently to Italy.  Admir had some 12 operations or

20    something like that, and then his leg was amputated.

21       Q.   In that area where you were sledding, was this your usual play

22    area?  Did you play there before?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you tell us how frequently?

25       A.   That depends or depended, rather, on shelling.  If there was

Page 7986

 1    shelling, we would be playing in basements.  But if days were quiet, then

 2    we would go out.

 3       Q.   In the area where you lived, could you tell us how frequent were

 4    the shellings?

 5       A.   Two or three times a week.  I think I already said that.

 6       Q.   Which facilities were usually shelled in that area when you say

 7    that it happened two or three times a week?

 8       A.   Some shells fell on residential buildings and some would end up in

 9    the street.

10       Q.   At that time when you said that there was shelling and that shells

11    were falling, did you hear shooting, firing, from other weapons?

12       A.   Could you repeat the question?

13       Q.   When you say that there was shelling in certain parts of the area

14    where you lived, where you were, did you hear firing from other weapons as

15    well?

16       A.   I don't recall.

17       Q.   When you say that there was shelling and that it happened two or

18    three times a week, could you tell us that you saw the shellings?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Do you know if anyone was killed?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Could you tell us?

23       A.   You mean names?

24       Q.   In your part of town.

25       A.   As far as I recall, I had a friend who was also injured about a

Page 7987

 1    month before us.  He was injured on the square, on the Rade Koncara

 2    Square.  He was wounded there.  I don't know his -- I don't remember his

 3    name.  I have forgotten.

 4            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

 5    consult my co-counsel.

 6                          [Defence counsel confer]

 7            MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

 8    nothing further.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

10            Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I see that you are standing.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  This is

12    not a question, but I believe that would not come out either in the French

13    or in the English transcript, and I am talking about page 78, line 12,

14    where the witness was talking about - and I think this could be important

15    - this is to do with combat, when he was referring, Mr. President, to

16    this military unit which was located near the incident place, he used the

17    expression which is not what we find.  I believe this is in line 22.  I

18    apologise.  Yes.  Instead of what we are seeing that they were going

19    towards the front lines, I believe that the witness used "Borba" [phoen]

20    which means combat, which even indicates a more active term.  I don't know

21    whether you could perhaps ask the witness what he meant because it doesn't

22    appear in French or in English transcript.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I could ask you, Mr. Kapetanovic, you were

24    asked by the -- you used to see soldiers in the area and whether you saw

25    any weapons with them, and your answer then was, "Yes, I did because it

Page 7988

 1    was from there that they went to ... "  To what exactly?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That they went to defend.  They went

 3    to defend the city of Sarajevo.  They went to the front lines.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think this clarifies the

 5    issue.

 6            Mr. Stamp, is there any need for re-examining the witness?

 7            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9                          Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

10       Q.   Earlier, when I was asking you questions, you indicated that one,

11    perhaps two, shells fell before you started to run, and you were unclear

12    where they fell.  And just now in response to my learned friend, you said

13    the first shell fell outside Klara Zetkin Street.  Could you tell us

14    precisely what sequence -- in what sequence did this shelling occur?

15            Did the first shell fall outside Klara Zetkin Street or did you

16    hear an explosion before that?

17       A.   We just heard the explosion.  We didn't see where it had fallen.

18       Q.   So when you said that the first shell fell outside Klara Zetkin

19    Street, that is something you heard afterwards; is that so?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And it is possible that two shells might have fallen before you

22    started to run; is that so?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   In the area where you live in Alipasino Polje, which phase was

25    that?

Page 7989

 1       A.   That was "C" phase, "C" section.

 2       Q.   Was there any combat in that area, in "C" section, that you know

 3    of?

 4       A.   No, not in the "C" section itself, no.

 5       Q.   Was there any confrontation line in the "C" section, that you know

 6    of?

 7       A.   I am sorry, could you repeat the question.

 8       Q.   Was there any confrontation line between two armies in "C" phase

 9    of Alipasino Polje?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   And finally, could you just please, if you can, spell the surname

12    of Elvir and Admir.  Can you?

13       A.   Ahmethodzic.

14       Q.   Very well.  The spelling was not clear when you first answered.

15    Were they related?

16       A.   Yes.  Yes, they were brothers.

17       Q.   Thank you.

18            MR. STAMP:  Nothing further, Mr. President.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

20            Mr. Kapetanovic, I have one question for you.

21                          Questioned by the Court:

22            JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked whether in the period of 1992, 1993,

23    and 1994, in the area of your settlement, whether you heard there was any

24    combat between the two armies.  I think you said, "As far as I heard,

25    yes."  That could mean two different things:  As far as you heard from

Page 7990

 1    other people, or as far as you heard with your own ears.  As far as the

 2    combat activity was concerned, could you tell us what you meant by "As far

 3    as I heard."

 4       A.   It is what the adults told us, people who came, these soldiers who

 5    came from the front lines.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you very much for your answer.

 7            Mr. Kapetanovic, you came a long way from Sarajevo to this

 8    courtroom.  We are all aware that you were still rather young when the

 9    events happened you testified about today.  You have answered all the

10    questions of both parties and of the Bench, and you will certainly be

11    aware that it is of great importance for this Tribunal and for this

12    Chamber to hear the answers of those who were present at these times and

13    these places.  Therefore, I would like to thank you very much for coming

14    to The Hague and I wish you a safe trip home again.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Kapetanovic

17    out of the courtroom.

18                          [The witness withdrew]

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

20    the documents or rather videos and CD-Roms, but we will start with the

21    documents as far as I am aware of.

22            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3281F, video; Exhibit P3678C, 360-degree

23    Quicktime movie; Exhibit P2174, medical documentation in B/C/S; Exhibit

24    P2174.1, English translation.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, since there are no other objections as the

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Page 7992

 1    standing objection against the 360-degree photograph, they are all

 2    admitted into evidence.

 3            I do see that the experience from some 10, 11 days ago was

 4    encouraging the parties.  We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 in

 5    the same courtroom.

 6                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 7                          1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

 8                          the 6th, day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.