Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9335

 1                          Friday, 31 May 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Stanislav Galic.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9            Good afternoon to everyone.  Mr. Ierace.

10            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, might I raise some matters very

11    briefly at this stage

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

13            MR. IERACE:  The first concerns the French translation.  Over the

14    last three weeks or so, the Defence counsel has repeatedly raised issues

15    in respect of the quality of the translations by the French booth.  At

16    times, the Defence counsel has risen to his feet every 10 minutes, or even

17    more frequently, with such concerns.  Yesterday evening, it reached the

18    point that the pace of evidence slowed down to an extraordinary extent.

19            Mr. President, it thus becomes an issue for the Prosecution when

20    it impacts upon the ability of the Prosecution to keep to its timetable.

21    I do not rise to my feet with a particular solution as a proposal but

22    rather, at this stage, simply to alert the Trial Chamber to the impact

23    that it is having.  There have been some witnesses that I have taken over

24    the last three weeks where it has been a problem as well.  So I simply

25    point that out as an issue which I think needs to be addressed.  I do not,

Page 9336

 1    in making those comments, suggest for a minute that there is anything

 2    lacking in the quality of the French translation.

 3            Mr. President, the second issue I wish to raise concerns expert

 4    witnesses.  You may recall that about three weeks ago I invited the

 5    Defence to indicate which witnesses it wished to have available for

 6    cross-examination and how long they expected they would be in

 7    cross-examination of those witnesses.  At that time, I also indicated that

 8    I could not give the Trial Chamber a realistic estimate of precisely how

 9    much time was left in the Prosecution case because it may well be

10    that some of those expert witnesses would be no more than a few minutes

11    in chief and may reasonably be more than half an hour or an hour in

12    cross-examination.

13            We have already seen one instance of an expert witness being five

14    minutes in chief and being a day in cross-examination.  Might I

15    respectfully suggest that the Defence indicates its position as to which

16    witnesses, expert witnesses, it requires and for how long in

17    cross-examination by, at the latest, Tuesday next week.  If they do that,

18    I will then give that required update the following day, on Wednesday.

19    From that point on, the Trial Chamber will be fully aware of our latest

20    precise estimate as to how much time is in the Prosecution case.  By that

21    date, we will also formally - that is by Tuesday - we will formally file

22    our application in respect of 92 bis witnesses.  I understand that the

23    translations are due to be completed this week, if not already completed

24    today.

25            That is the second issue.  And in so doing, I have mentioned a

Page 9337

 1    third issue, that is the timetable, and subject to the Defence giving us

 2    their indications by Tuesday, I will update the Trial Chamber on

 3    Wednesday.

 4            Fourthly, Mr. President, you indicated, I think earlier this

 5    week or late last week, that the sitting time for Monday may be varied to

 6    9.30 to 4.30, I think it was, and also to the same times on Monday, the

 7    17th of June, in which case, if it was, we would not sit the following

 8    day.  I would be grateful, if you are in a position to do so, if you could

 9    advise us of the position not only in relation to this Monday but also the

10    other two days because it impacts upon our planning of transporting

11    witnesses to The Hague to give evidence.  And it would involve the loss of

12    a day, almost a full day, if we lost that Tuesday.

13            Finally, Mr. President, the matter of the proposed witness for

14    next Wednesday, Mr. Tucker.  This morning I received a letter from the

15    Defence, advising the Prosecution that they would not be ready to proceed

16    with the witness Tucker on Wednesday because they have only just received

17    yesterday his statement and a translation of his statement.  And I think

18    there may still be some exhibits to come in B/C/S.  There are, I think,

19    four exhibits to be tendered through the witness Pierce Tucker.  Mr.

20    President, I appreciate and sympathise with the position of the Defence.

21    We have not stuck to the seven-day rule with Mr. Tucker.  I will explain

22    the reason.  There is a lengthy statement, some 30 or 35 pages, which was

23    not signed until the 3rd of May.  It was immediately put into translation,

24    and we received the translation back the day that we disclosed it to the

25    Defence, which is yesterday.

Page 9338

 1            I provided yesterday a copy of the statement to the Defence, in

 2    English, which has marked on it the particular passages that we would lead

 3    from him in chief so as to assist the Defence to come to terms with that

 4    evidence.  Much of the statement has nothing to do with Sarajevo.

 5    Although a translation has been provided of the full statement,

 6    exhibits which have nothing to do with Sarajevo and which are mentioned

 7    in the statement have not been provided.  I would not anticipate that

 8    being an issue.  Those exhibits primarily have to do with events in

 9    Srebrenica.  So although we have provided copies of all of the exhibits

10    which relate either directly or indirectly to this trial, we only intend

11    to tender into evidence four of them.

12            Mr. President, if we do not call Mr. Tucker on Wednesday at all,

13    it may be that there is a break in the evidence.  In saying that, I

14    appreciate that a number of types I have risen to my feet and anticipated

15    a break, but as it has transpired, the break never came about.

16            Perhaps I should explain how I anticipate next week will go as far

17    as witnesses are concerned.  On Monday, we call Mr. Mole.  We may not

18    finish his evidence, that is cross-examination and re-examination, on

19    Monday.  Tuesday, we have Witness W.  If we have not finished Mole by

20    Tuesday, the Prosecution would seek your leave to interpose the evidence

21    of Witness W.  He is only available that day.  If we have to interpose

22    Witness W, I respectfully propose that we recall Mole at the end of the

23    evidence of Witness W and finish him then, that is either on Tuesday or

24    Wednesday, whenever Witness W is completed.

25            The next witness was Tucker.  After him is David Harland.  He is

Page 9339

 1    unable to travel to be available to give evidence on the Wednesday.  He is

 2    due to arrive in The Hague on Wednesday afternoon.  There are some

 3    pressing, indeed, compelling personal factors, health factors with his

 4    family which preclude as an option him giving evidence on Wednesday.  I

 5    won't go into those details unless I am required to and then in closed

 6    court.

 7            Mr. President, we then have General Van Baal for Friday.  I should

 8    say that I anticipate Mr. Harland's evidence would take all of Thursday.

 9    By way of preparation for General Van Baal, we have alerted the

10    translation unit to the need for interpreters in the Dutch language, that

11    is, Dutch into B/C/S and French and English, as well as those three

12    languages into Dutch, or at least French and English.

13            Mr. President, that being the timetable, and mindful of the

14    position that the Defence is in with Mr. Tucker, I respectfully propose

15    that we call Tucker on Wednesday, but only to give his evidence in chief,

16    and then he be recalled at a later stage in the trial to be subject to

17    cross-examination.  If anything, in my respectful submission, that better

18    places the Defence because they have time not only to contemplate his

19    statement and the exhibits but also a transcript of his sworn evidence in

20    chief at their leisure.  Thank you, Mr. President.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.  Your observations in this

22    respect.

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] A few observations,

24    Mr. President.  I will be brief.  Your Honours, good afternoon to begin

25    with.  I think that I was not well understood by Mr. Ierace, and I

Page 9340

 1    apologise.  The Defence was never in favour of saying that they were

 2    traduttori, tradittori under any circumstance, and I would like to

 3    congratulate the French booth which translated thirdly by fourthly.  Very

 4    good.

 5            Yesterday, we had problems.  Yesterday, this was not because of

 6    the Defence but because the witness was very rapid, and then there was

 7    also another technical problem because the French booth had this problem,

 8    which it can explain.  But when very important passages in the testimony

 9    are missing, it is my duty to point to that, and I am doing this only with

10    great reservation and, of course, I overlook the minor matters, but we

11    must react sometimes because our Tribunal is a bilingual one.

12            And as regards the Witness Tucker, the Prosecution has not

13    respected the deadlines.  We must take note of that and it must bear the

14    consequences.  Therefore, Witness W, as we had said we would, we submitted

15    our views on Witness Tucker and Witness W, and we would like to say that

16    as far as Witness W is concerned, and regardless of the fact whether it is

17    a UN official who falls under the category of the Rules, UN Rules of 1946.

18    So I would like to mention also that the deadlines have not been

19    respected, Mr. President, because the statements were made available much

20    earlier than the moment that we actually received them.  I am not speaking

21    of the translations.  And I think that Article 67(a) says that Prosecution

22    has to submit as quickly as possible testimonies of witnesses.  I don't

23    think this has been done.  I think that the deadline has been -- that

24    there has been delay of two months from the moment it had this material

25    until it submitted to us.  Therefore, Witnesses W, X and Z cannot be

Page 9341

 1    accepted.  And also with regard to Witness Tucker, the statements were

 2    made and taken a year ago and it is not natural, in a trial like this,

 3    that we keep putting off things until the very last moment, statements

 4    that are important and that makes it impossible for the Defence to work,

 5    and this by all the energy we put into this trial and our good will.

 6            We would like to make a request.  It was not possible as regards

 7    the witness who we will cross-examine today.  It might last as long as it

 8    was yesterday.  And we did not have time enough to prepare the

 9    cross-examination with General Galic.  I think that we can work until

10    5.00, but after that, we will not be able to be as efficient as we would

11    like to be, and I think it would be good to stop at 5.00, 5.30, and then

12    to continue the cross-examination later on Monday as soon as possible in

13    the time we will need to look into the exhibits.

14            The witness was very lengthy in his statements.  He provided

15    running testimony of about five hours, and we had to go into that

16    material, and it is not possible for us to do this on the spot.  And

17    therefore, in order to increase our efficiency, we think that it would be

18    good to work until 5.00, 5.30 p.m., and then continue on Monday morning.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ierace.

20            MR. IERACE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21            Firstly, just quickly in relation to Tucker, the statement was

22    not taken a year ago.  It was taken over a series of interviews and,

23    indeed, was not signed until the 3rd of May.  My learned colleague also

24    mentions the situation with Witnesses W, X and Z, and mentions that he has

25    filed a response to our application for protective measures.  Indeed, that

Page 9342

 1    is a matter I intended to raise as well, so that is a sixth matter.  Of

 2    course, since Witness W is due to give his evidence on Tuesday, I would be

 3    grateful if the Trial Chamber could indicate its position, preferably

 4    today, but obviously, with respect, Mr. President, Monday.

 5            I should say that the other day my learned colleague said to you

 6    that these witnesses had been added to the witness list.  I showed the

 7    Defence yesterday the relevant 65 ter summary and I don't think now there

 8    is any issue on that.  In other words, there were 65 ter summaries for

 9    those witnesses filed before the trial commenced at the relevant time and

10    at no time were they deleted from the witness list.  There was some

11    further material served on the Defence in relation to Witness W.  Clearly,

12    if there is to be a discussion of that material, it should happen in

13    closed session.

14            I am not aware of any other issue in relation to those three

15    witnesses, other than the need for protective measures.  Thank you, Mr.

16    President.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ierace.  Let me just confer with the

18    Chamber.

19                          [Trial Chamber confers]

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just give you at least a decision on a few

21    issues, not all of them.  The others will come after the first break, if

22    possible, of course.

23            First, the issue of translation.  It should be, as a general rule,

24    it should be observed that objections against the translations and the

25    intervention to that end, of course, should be made if the translation

Page 9343

 1    does not enable us to follow the proceedings, and we had difficulties of

 2    this kind especially yesterday.  Also, if the translation, even if it is a

 3    minor point, could cause confusion - not minor confusion but real

 4    confusion - then, of course, it is also -- it goes without explanation

 5    that the Defence not only could, but even should, interfere, I would say.

 6    On minor issues, we have small yellow papers and we could use them.

 7            What happened yesterday was that the speed, both of the examining

 8    party and of the witness, was such that it created major problems.  I will

 9    take a bit more control during the continuation of the

10    examination-in-chief, that is, I will give signs on who can speak at what

11    moment.  I tried to do it yesterday but perhaps I should explain this to

12    the witness first.  I expect that there will be less problems when

13    cross-examined because we have the natural break between question and

14    answer, since the questions have to be translated and the answers have to

15    be translated.  That is the first issue.

16            As far as the time needed for cross-examination of the expert

17    witnesses is concerned, the Chamber thinks that it is fair that the

18    Defence gives this indication by the time suggested by the Prosecutor.

19            As far as Witness W is concerned, of course, we will first like to

20    see the submissions by the Defence and we will come back to that as soon

21    as possible.

22            As far as next Monday is concerned, and as far as Monday the 17th

23    and Tuesday the 18th is concerned, the reasons I indicated that there

24    might be a change is on the basis of the coordination we have with the

25    Stakic case.  I am just informed that on the 17th and the 18th, the

Page 9344

 1    schedule will be as planned before.  That means that we will just sit at

 2    the scheduled times on the 17th and the 18th.  As far as next Monday is

 3    concerned, we would have some extra time.  Nevertheless, the Chamber would

 4    prefer to start at 9.00 in the morning, but we have, if necessary, a

 5    possibility either to have the break a bit earlier or to continue -- and

 6    then continue in the afternoon.  It very much depends on how the

 7    examination of the witness develops, but we have a bit more room, as far

 8    as time is concerned, as we usually have when the Stakic case starts in

 9    the afternoon.

10            On the issue of the schedule for next week, on the issue of the

11    examination of Mr. Tucker and on the issue of a break by 5.00 today, the

12    Chamber will consider this during the next break and we will inform the

13    parties.

14            MR. IERACE:  Thank you for that, Mr. President.  I will return at

15    the beginning of the next session, if that is convenient to the Trial

16    Chamber.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18            MR. IERACE:  Thank you.  Mr. President, just one more thing I

19    should say, perhaps to keep in mind --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please wait for one second.

21                          [Trial Chamber confers]

22            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will try to give its decision on

23    Witness W, if possible, today, even if it would be just for the time being

24    an oral decision, but of course we first have to look carefully to the

25    submissions of the Defence.

Page 9345

 1            MR. IERACE:  Thank you for that, Mr. President.

 2            The -- I rose to my feet a minute ago to suggest, respectfully

 3    suggest, that you might ask the witness Thomas how he would be placed if

 4    he was required to return on Monday because, at this stage, he is

 5    scheduled to fly out tonight.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7            MR. IERACE:  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you, what do you exactly mean by how he

 9    would be placed?

10            MR. IERACE:  What I have in mind, if you accede to the Defence

11    request, a corollary of that is that he return on Monday for further

12    cross-examination, and he may have some pressing personal problem - I

13    don't know - which would present.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand.  Just inform whether he would

15    be available on next Monday, if that would be necessary.

16            MR. IERACE:  And the alternative is that --

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.

18            MR. IERACE:  -- he return at a later stage.  Thank you.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Then if there is no other issue to be raised at this

20    very moment, may I ask Mr. Usher to bring Mr. Thomas into the courtroom.

21            Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to

23    inform you of one thing, after having conferred with my colleague.  As far

24    as the issue is concerned, the issue of timing and with regard to the

25    expert witness, my colleague has reminded me, and quite rightly, that it

Page 9346

 1    seems that we received at a very late stage, so quite recently, the

 2    statements in the Serbian language, if I have understood that correctly,

 3    and as a result we haven't had the time to examine them in detail.  I

 4    understand your decision and I thank you for that.  But this poses a

 5    technical problem since we have to examine this matter in all our

 6    ignorance because we haven't been able to examine this in the Serbian

 7    language.  And I think that this is the right of the General to be

 8    informed of this, to be aware of this.  I wanted to point this out to you.

 9    Thank you.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I fully accept that preparing for cross-examination

11    needs that you are able to discuss the matters with your client.  An

12    indication of the approximate time needed for cross-examination is a

13    different thing from the full preparation of the cross-examination itself.

14    So, therefore, I think the Defence could also rely on its experience as

15    experienced Defence lawyers, and that does not necessarily mean that all

16    details of the reports have to be discussed with your client.  But let's

17    see how far you come and what information you could give to the Chamber.

18                          [The witness entered court]

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, I apologise for having you waiting

20    outside of this courtroom for quite a while, meanwhile.  The

21    examination-in-chief will be continued by Mr. Mundis, but we experienced

22    quite some problems yesterday as far as the speed was concerned.  This is

23    also caused by the fact that you and Mr. Mundis are speaking the same

24    language.  Although I am not a trained conductor, I nevertheless will try

25    to indicate by hand signals to you when to stop and when to start.

Page 9347

 1            So if both Mr. Mundis and you, Mr. Thomas, would apart from --

 2    look at me so that you can follow my indications, that would be highly

 3    appreciated.

 4            Finally, I would like to remind you, Mr. Thomas, that you are

 5    still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of

 6    your testimony in this court.

 7            Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

 8            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                          WITNESS: FRANCIS ROY THOMAS [Resumed]

10                          Examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

11         Q.   Mr. Thomas, when we adjourned yesterday, we were discussing the

12    issue of Motorola radios.  Do you recall whether on any occasion during

13    the time you were assigned in Sarajevo, whether you saw any senior Bosnian

14    Serb army officers carrying Motorola radios?

15       A.   Yes.  Every senior commander on both sides had Motorolas

16       Q.   What type --

17            JUDGE ORIE:  May I remind you, Mr. Mundis, that you look at me.  I

18    am listening to the French channel and I will see whether the French

19    translation is able to follow.

20            MR. MUNDIS:  Yes, Mr. President.

21       Q.   What type of information would the UNMOs be transmitting over the

22    UN radio net?

23       A.   We would transmit --

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.  I

25    apologise, but this is an example, an important example.  The question

Page 9348

 1    was, and I will repeat it:  "What type of information... "  And the

 2    translation which you heard, as I did, is:  "Did those operators transmit

 3    it through the radio network?"  And I don't think that is the question,

 4    and I think it is important here and I have to point it out.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  So that is corrected by your observation.

 6            Please proceed.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  So the question to you was, Mr. Thomas, whether --

 9    what type of information the UNMOs would be transmitting over the UN radio

10    net?

11            THE WITNESS:  We would transmit almost all information over the

12    radio net that had any urgency to it.  For example, if shelling was taking

13    place, we would transmit this so that other people listening to our net

14    would have the opportunity of being warned about the danger.  If there was

15    a sniper incident, we would also pass this immediately on the net, in

16    particular, the location.

17            MR. MUNDIS:

18       Q.   What language was used over the UN radio net at that time?

19       A.   The language of the mission was English.  On the lower levels of

20    the contingent nets, I suspect that they used the language of that

21    contingent, but I can't confirm this.  I did hear French spoken on the

22    French military net.  But I must be clear, the language used at the higher

23    levels, the official language was English, and that was used on the

24    military observer net.

25       Q.   Were any type of -- was any type of code language employed on the

Page 9349

 1    UN radio net?

 2       A.   At one point -- at one point, we considered using a code, but as

 3    we knew other people from other UN agencies monitor our net, we wanted to

 4    send the locations, the map reference, grid references, in clear so that

 5    if shelling was occurring and we were reporting it, that they would

 6    understand where this shelling was happening and could be warned.

 7       Q.   The -- I take it from that answer, sir, that the information

 8    conveyed included very specific map references to the location of the

 9    shelling or sniping?

10       A.   That is correct.  I should add to that, in my training today,

11    when I train military observers, I emphasise:  Get the map reference first

12    and the details follow.

13       Q.   Mr. Thomas, were there any instances that you recall in which you

14    or others in your presence used the UN radio net specifically to address

15    either of the warring parties?

16       A.   No.  I would say that we knew the warring parties listened to our

17    net, both sides, and I used this knowledge that when I emerged from a

18    meeting with either of the warring parties, I would broadcast to my teams

19    what I understood had been agreed to at the meeting in English.  And I

20    assumed that this -- and I assumed that the warring parties would -- were

21    listening, would hear this, and this committed them to the agreement as I

22    understood it.  And if they tried to come back and change it after, it

23    made it more difficult for them to do that.

24            And I found that this -- and I found that this procedure did work

25    as they had more difficulty trying to tell me that something hadn't been

Page 9350

 1    said if I had already told all my people what I understood had been

 2    said.  I assumed everything that I said on the radio in Sarajevo was heard

 3    by both sides.

 4            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

 5    would ask that the witness be shown the document marked P2578.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that the booth do have copies of

 7    these documents.

 8            Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

 9            MR. MUNDIS:

10       Q.   Mr. Thomas, can you identify the document that is now before you,

11    P2578?

12       A.   Yes, I can.  This is a summary that we started preparing in March

13    that I took with me to meetings.

14       Q.   What type of information is contained in these summaries?

15       A.   It was a summary of the major incidents, and you will see on the

16    second page it has a summary of some of the matters that we were dealing

17    with.  Note the heading "Matters Resolved" and the heading "Matters Still

18    Requiring Attention."  And, of course, ignore the comments of my New

19    Zealand duty operations officer on the bottom.

20       Q.   Mr. Thomas, I notice, for example, under the entry marked 5 March

21    on the first page, the first entry under 5 March, there is reference to SA

22    fire.  Can you tell us what that acronym "SA" stands for, please?

23       A.   The acronym stands for "small arms."

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, I would ask the assistance of the

Page 9351

 1    usher --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  One moment, please.

 3            MR. MUNDIS:  I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

 4    Exhibit P2442.

 5       Q.   Mr. Thomas, are you familiar with the document marked P2442, which

 6    is currently in front of you?

 7       A.   Yes, I am.  Although, to make it clear to the Court, this is

 8    actually a collection of various documents, not all from the same date and

 9    not all prepared at the same time by the same person.  These are a

10    collection of what I would call "intelligence documents."  Some were

11    prepared for me before I arrived to give me background.  Some were items

12    prepared for me at my request, such as the list of maps.  And some are

13    assessments prepared by the military observers I had working as military

14    information officers or intelligence.

15            In fact, the pages you see before you are out of order.  This was

16    in my intelligence binder in my office in Sarajevo, and this is a

17    selection of documents from one of my four main binders that I always kept

18    in my office.  Is this sufficient detail for the Court?  I can add more to

19    this.

20       Q.   I have a few specific questions for you, sir.  If you see the

21    stamped numbers towards the upper right-hand corner of these documents, I

22    would ask that you turn to the page ending 750.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Beginning on page 750 and continuing through pages 760, there are

25    a series of documents that contain names and what appear to be functional

Page 9352












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 9353

 1    titles.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what these documents are?

 2       A.   These documents -- these documents represent the briefing notes

 3    prepared for me when I arrived in Sector Sarajevo on 15 October, 1993.

 4    And before I would visit one of these headquarters, for example,

 5    General Galic's headquarters, I would be able to read this so that I would

 6    know who I was meeting and what their function was in that headquarters.

 7    The handwritten notes that you see are my notes.  For example, I didn't

 8    meet all the brigade commanders.  Some brigade commanders, I never met.

 9    Some brigades, I have a question mark beside.

10            Is this sufficient detail for the Court?  Would you require

11    further edification?

12       Q.   Sir, I just have a couple of questions with respect to the

13    acronyms appearing on page 750 in the centre column under the

14    heading: "Function."

15       A.   Which acronym --

16       Q.   If you would please go to the second line, it indicates "COS."

17       A.   Chief of Staff.

18       Q.   Next line, "DCOS"?

19       A.   Deputy Chief of Staff.

20       Q.   "DCO" on the following line?

21       A.   Deputy Chief of Staff for discipline.

22       Q.   Finally, toward the bottom of that list, "COO"?

23       A.   Chief of Operations.  Chief Operations Officer would be the

24    correct English.  Chief Operations Officer.

25       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

Page 9354

 1            MR. MUNDIS:  With the assistance of the usher, I would ask that

 2    the witness be handed two exhibits, P2170 and P3706.

 3       Q.   Mr. Thomas, I would ask you first to turn your attention to P2170.

 4    As an initial matter, let me ask you if you read and understand the French

 5    language?

 6       A.   I have Canadian government level 4 for reading comprehension,

 7    which is more than functional.

 8       Q.   Can you describe, please --

 9       A.   This is a document prepared in French, talking about a shelling

10    incident.  Do you want to question me on the details?

11       Q.   Do you -- first let me ask you if you know or ever met either the

12    drafter or the releasing officer of this document.

13       A.   I don't know the drafter of this shelling report, which is

14    document that ends 893, however, the officer that prepared the cover

15    sheet, 892, was on the-- plans officer on the staff of Sector Sarajevo

16    headquarters and I know him.

17       Q.   If you turn to the page ending -- if you turn to the page ending

18    in the numbers 893, can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what this

19    shelling report refers to.

20       A.   The shelling report refers to 120-millimetre impacts which killed

21    six children.  The author of the report tried to determine from the

22    direction the angle of approach and other technical -- meteorological

23    conditions, which direction the mortar rounds were fired from.  So he

24    makes a point that it was fired from the same mortar tube that was fired

25    during a duration of several minutes, and it appears to be an additional

Page 9355

 1    conclusion by some kind of intelligence specialist saying that this

 2    mortar most likely was fired from either the Stup area of Sarajevo or

 3    from Ilidza, from the Serb side.

 4            Do you want me to elaborate further on the actual technical

 5    details?

 6       Q.   I simply, sir, would ask if based on your experience whether the

 7     -- this appears to be a thorough and professional crater analysis?

 8       A.   This appears to me to be about as thorough as it can be done under

 9    the circumstances.  There never can be 100 per cent guarantee, but the

10    French employed a specialist who did a very good job in this particular

11    matter, and I would have accepted this report without question.

12       Q.   I would ask you now, Mr. Thomas, to turn to the document marked

13    P3706.

14            Is this document also a crater analysis report?

15       A.   Yes.  It is in a slightly different format probably because the

16    English format was used.

17       Q.   Can you describe -- can you describe what this report refers to,

18    please?

19       A.   This report also refers to another mortar impacts, a series of

20    mortar impacts at a different time.  Let me just see if it -- it -- and

21    obviously, there were four adults and three children killed in the

22    description of the casualties, and it is trying to undertake again an

23    analysis from which direction it was fired.  However, the only conclusion

24    is shown on page 899, in which he gives a direction.  The mortar impact

25    area from the map, as you can see, impacted in Dobrinja, and if you were

Page 9356

 1    to check -- if you were to check the grid references given, that would

 2    also be the general location, and he gives an approach which indicates it

 3    was fired from the Lukavica area.

 4            This report, again --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  One moment.  Please proceed.

 6            THE WITNESS:  This report, again prepared by the same officer that

 7    prepared the previous report and also with the covering sheet by an

 8    officer that I knew in the headquarters, I would have accepted.

 9            MR. MUNDIS:

10       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

11            MR. MUNDIS:  The Prosecution has no further questions for the

12    witness at this time, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President?

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to start the cross-examination?

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If the question is whether we

17    are ready to start, the answer is yes.

18                          Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

19       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.  Witness, good

20    afternoon.

21       A.   Good afternoon.

22       Q.   Witness, you have just told us just a minute ago, on the basis of

23    the document that was given to you, the document stated that the firing

24    was coming from Lukavic.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher

Page 9357

 1    to give the witness the latest document.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  3706.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The number is 3706.

 4            THE WITNESS:  I am afraid I have to say that I didn't say --

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Witness, please, just a moment.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  What would you like to say, Mr. Thomas?

 8            THE WITNESS:  I indicated that the map showed that the shell

 9    originated in Lukavica.

10            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to verify this,

11    something, Mr. President.  Just a few minutes.

12            THE WITNESS:  The page that I referred to --

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness, just a moment,

14    please.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there is any need to ask the

16    witness to stop answering, please address me.

17            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness, when I am verifying

18    the transcript, please see to it that the witness doesn't address anyone.

19       Q.   Page 21, line 1, says: [In English] "He gives I think is the map,

20    but I don't know."  [Interpretation] I am reading, line 21, you declared:

21    [In English] "Which indicates it was fired from the Lukavica area."

22            Witness, just wait a minute, just listen to my question first.

23            For what reason can you affirm what I have just read to you?

24       A.   First of all, Mr. Lawyer, this is a map and there is nothing in

25    there that is written that says the round was fired from Lukavica.

Page 9358

 1    However, if you look at your document, which I assume you have in front of

 2    you, you will see an arrow drawn to scale which shows, in a very technical

 3    manner, the direction of the approach of the round and the probable source

 4    of its origin.

 5       Q.   Very well.  I am interrupting you.  We shall proceed.  I am not

 6    trying to be discourteous, I am just trying to be efficient, and I ask you

 7    to stop when I ask you to stop.  Can you understand me?

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, perhaps I should explain the following

 9    to you.  If, for reasons of efficiency, the Defence counsel thinks that

10    your answer was sufficient in relation to what he wanted to hear from

11    you, he might interrupt you.  If, however, there would ever be a

12    situation where you feel that being stopped would distort or would not --

13    would distort the information you had given until then because you

14    wanted to add something which might change what you had said before,

15    then, please ask me whether you may continue your answer.  And I will

16    then decide on whether you are allowed to continue your answer or whether

17    Defence counsel is entitled at that moment to ask you -- at that moment

18    to ask a new question to you.

19            May I also ask you to very carefully listen to the questions and

20    perhaps not interfere when the question is still put to you.  So wait

21    until the full question has been put to you.

22            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, thank you, Mr. President.  And could I

23    ask then if, in the opinion of the three of you, that you are very clear

24    that I am referring to an indicator on a map and not to a written

25    statement with reference to this report?

Page 9359

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, you clarified this now, at least.

 2            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Witness, I would like you to, also with the wish of respecting the

 5    time, to answer simply by a "yes" or "no" answer.  Would this be possible?

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, that would depend on the question, but if

 7    you are able to answer by "yes" or "no" and if the question allows it,

 8    please do so.  If, on the other hand, you think that a "yes" or "no" could

 9    not reflect your knowledge properly and that we would be mislead by just a

10    "yes" or "no," then you could indicate so and ask whether you could

11    elaborate what you said until then.

12            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Witness, first thing:  Do you understand spoken French?

15       A.   Not sufficient to make answers in this court.

16       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, you are an artillery officer, are

17    you not?

18       A.   No.  I am a tank officer.

19       Q.   I apologise.  You are a tank officer; is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, I suppose that you have a wide

22    academic training; is that correct?

23       A.   It depends what you mean by "wide." I have a Masters degree in

24    War Studies.

25       Q.   That is exactly what I had in mind, thank you very much, Witness.

Page 9360

 1            If tank officers are not directly interested in mortars, they

 2    nevertheless have some knowledge about it; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes, and I can elaborate further --

 4       Q.   No, no, I don't think so.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...firstly what next

 6    questions Mr. Piletta-Zanin has for you.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Witness, can you tell us if, in practice, it is difficult to

 9    determine on the basis of a crater analysis the range of a shot, what we

10    call the range?

11       A.   Range is not difficult to at all.  A certain type of mortar will

12    have a range capability and that is the easiest thing to determine.  If

13    you have a sample of the round, you know the range of that round and you

14    can draw a radius with that range around the impact area and determine

15    easily what falls within that range.  The most difficult thing is

16    direction because shrapnel, when it hits, it depends exactly on how the

17    fuse hits, and the shrapnel pattern can change.

18            Does this answer your question?

19       Q.   It is an answer.  It doesn't answer my question but it is an

20    answer, nevertheless.  Thank you.

21            Witness, perhaps I did not express myself correctly.  I am

22    talking precisely not about the range of mortar, but the range of a

23    specific shot, that is to say, on the basis of a mortar impact, can you,

24    with accuracy, say that the shot came from 1.250 metres or 1.372 metres,

25    let us say?

Page 9361

 1       A.   Well, it always is difficult because there is a number of factors

 2    that enter into even the simplest of artillery rounds, such as weather,

 3    the wind, how the fuse hits.  But all of the -- mortars are the easiest to

 4    determine the range because they have a fixed ammunition base.  Artillery

 5    rounds, you vary the range by adding more or less cartridges.  But the

 6    mortar rounds, 120-millimetre mortar rounds cannot fire beyond 4.000

 7    metres, so then it is a process of elimination and the --

 8       Q.   Witness, I apologise.  We are not talking about general range.

 9    Many people have spoken about range in general.  I a speaking about the

10    difference from a shot, let us say a shot "A."  Is it true or not that it

11    is particularly difficult on the basis of a crater analysis to determine

12    the distance at which -- from which the shot was fired?

13       A.   To pinpoint to exact location might be difficult because to

14    determine how far the round was fired will depend on whether you can

15    determine -- you know the general characteristics of the weapon, it would

16    have been fired from a radius, within a radius of 4.000 metres at the

17    impact area.  So now you are arguing about whether it was at 2000 or

18    4.000.  To determine that aspect, if the Court will let me elaborate

19    further, it will depend on the trajectory because, for shorter ranges, you

20    will fire higher and it will come down in a steeper trajectory.  To get

21    further out, you will have changed the elevation and it will come at a

22    different trajectory, and that is where to say that it was 1500 or 2000

23    will be difficult because you must determine how it hit.

24            But crater analysis actually helps in that because the point of

25    impact of the round, as it comes into the ground like this, will determine

Page 9362

 1    a shrapnel pattern.  If it is coming fairly straight, that is, it has been

 2    fired at short range, then it will come in and the fuse head will be

 3    embedded partly into the ground, depending on the nature of the ground -

 4    this is one of the complicating factors - and the shrapnel pattern will be

 5    different than if it is fired from a longer range and the round will come

 6    in a little bit less and maybe the bottom part of the round --

 7       Q.   Witness, I apologise for interrupting you.  We have heard this

 8    from other witnesses.  Can I conclude -- just listen to my question, wait

 9    for my question.  Can I deduce from your technical explanation,

10    interesting explanation, that what you call a fuse and sometimes refer to

11    as the stabiliser is taken out before a statistical analysis, this could

12    serious modify the results of such an analysis?

13       A.   I am afraid this question is -- I don't understand the question

14    because perhaps the incorrect terminology.  The fuse is in the warhead,

15    and when it hits, it is usually completely exploded.  Whereas the fin,

16    which is the stabilising part, may remain intact.  It will tell very

17    little because -- it is the pattern of the shrapnel that will give the

18    indication.  How did the fuse hit --

19       Q.   Witness, I spoke about -- and I apologise because I am not an

20    expert in the matter, I spoke about, actually, what I had in mind is a

21    fin, a stabilising element.  If it is moved, this fin is moved, this

22    stabilising element, before the analysis is made, and if it touches the

23    crater, would this modify the conclusions of the analysis?

24       A.   In my opinion, no.  Because the shrapnel pattern indicates how the

25    fuse exploded, as much as you can determine when it hit.  And how the fuse

Page 9363

 1    hit determines the angle of the trajectory.  The fin, for any one of a

 2    number of reasons, including the secondary explosion as the main content

 3    of the warhead explodes, could throw the fin away.  Or if the fin -- the

 4    certain types of soil, the fin may become imbedded in the soil, or it

 5    could be moved by the explosion or by the sand or whatever debris fills

 6    back in.  But I think that's the kind of question that even normal combat

 7    arms officers would argue over.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you to listen quite carefully to the

 9    question, because it was my understanding that the question was about if

10    the tail-fin has been removed after the explosion, let us say by man,

11    taken out or changed from position, whether that would affect the

12    conclusions.

13            THE WITNESS:  Personally, I think not because the shrapnel

14    pattern should remain intact.  Only if the shrapnel pattern itself, when

15    you yank this out, would that distort the conclusions.  It could be a

16    factor and I suggest then you -- if you have concrete examples, you ask

17    one of the experts you call in later.  And, in fact, you have --

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   We shall do it.  We shall do it, thank you.

20            But is it not true and can you answer "yes" or "no," if it is

21    possible, is it not right that the in situ position of the stabilising

22    element, the fin, is useful for determining the angle of descent, yes or

23    no, in regard to the ground?

24       A.   It could be.  I would attach more weight to have the fuse hit.

25       Q.   All right.  I agree.

Page 9364

 1            Is it true that the angle of descent is a determining factor for

 2    determining the parabola?

 3       A.   It could be, yes.

 4       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I will ask you another series of questions

 5    and I will ask you to give me a "yes" or "no" answer.  You spent a number

 6    of months in Sarajevo, more than a year; is that true?

 7       A.   I spent nine months.

 8       Q.   I apologise.  So more or less, one year.

 9            Witness, I have read your statement.  You mentioned that you tried

10    to sleep one or two nights out of three in the observation posts.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

13            Witness, which, in fact, means that you could move in and out of

14    Sarajevo and on the Lima side, too; is that correct?

15       A.   That is correct.

16       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Witness, when you used to move around

17    Sarajevo, I suppose that you were not restricted to a single commune but

18    that you would visit the entire sector of Sarajevo; is that correct?

19       A.   I am not sure what you mean by that question.  If you mean -- if

20    you are seeking me to say, "Yes, I had no restrictions," that is not

21    correct.

22       Q.   No, no, I am not trying to make you say anything but the truth.

23            Were you restricted in your tours to certain areas of Sarajevo or

24    to the large Sarajevo, the Greater Sarajevo?

25       A.   Yes, I was, by both sides.  I had to go, especially at night, go

Page 9365

 1    through one or two crossing points.

 2       Q.   All right.  But my question did not relate to the cross points but

 3    whether you, personally, could you have travelled in all parts of Sarajevo

 4    during your nine months, whatever side; yes or no?

 5       A.   The answer isn't -- can't be answered by "yes" or "no" because it

 6    changed --

 7       Q.   I withdraw my question.  Thank you.

 8            So depart from the principle that you were very familiar with

 9    Sarajevo?

10       A.   Yes, I was.

11       Q.   [No translation]

12       A.   There were parts of Sarajevo I was very familiar with and there

13    were parts that I did not see at all.

14       Q.   Thank you.  But I am referring to the situation in Sarajevo, not

15    the localisation.  Is your answer "yes" or "no"?

16       A.   Yes, I think I was familiar with the situation in Sarajevo.

17       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

18            Witness, in your capacity as military observer, you stated, I

19    believe, that you were very alert to what -- that the people under your

20    orders were very accurate in reporting facts, either relating to shelling

21    or relating to sniping incidents, or any other important events.  Is that

22    correct?

23       A.   We tried to make them as accurate as we could, yes.

24       Q.   Thank you very much.

25            Is it true that you, yourself, as the person in charge, you placed

Page 9366

 1    importance on the fact that one should be as certain as possible to have

 2    the sit-rep reports reflect the realities to the greatest possible extent?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 5            Witness, you were able to visit -- to travel in Sarajevo with

 6    difficulty, and I would like to ask you the following questions:  If you

 7    can answer "yes" or "no," I would be very grateful to you and I thank you

 8    in advance.  Do you know what MUP was?

 9       A.   I am afraid I don't understand the --

10       Q.   MUP, [In English] M-u-p.

11       A.   You are talking about the police organisation, is that correct?

12    It is a synonym.

13       Q.   [Interpretation] If you know it, then just tell us:  True, it is a

14    police organisation.

15       A.   I have to recall from -- I have been on another UN mission with

16    different organisations.  MUP, yes.  Yes.

17       Q.   Do you know where the MUP was based in Sarajevo?

18       A.   I don't recall where it was based.

19       Q.   Which means that you used to know?

20       A.   If we are talking about police organisations, yes, I knew where

21    there were several police organisations.

22       Q.   I am referring to headquarters, to the main office of the police,

23    of the MUP, in Sarajevo.

24       A.   I knew where the Sarajevo -- so-called Sarajevo police chief

25    worked, yes.

Page 9367

 1       Q.   Could you tell us where that was?

 2       A.   It was -- well, I would do better with my map.  But it was down

 3    -- it was in the centre of --

 4       Q.   You will possibly get my map later.  But could you roughly tell us

 5    where it was?

 6       A.   It was in the centre of town and it wasn't too far from the

 7    parliament buildings, and I went there at night, most of the time.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Does the word "La Benevolencija" mean anything to you?

 9    Witness, we will give you a map in a while.  It is here and you will be

10    able to orient yourself.  But I would like to know, unless it is a good

11    moment for making a break -- perhaps it would be a good moment

12            JUDGE ORIE:  I was just about to ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13    Thank you for assisting me.  We will have a break until a quarter past

14    4.00.

15                          --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

16                          --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  We took a bit more time to consider all the issues

18    raised in the beginning and we thought we could do it in 30 minutes, but

19    it took us a few minutes more.  As far as Witness W, because that is the

20    most urgent one, and Witness Y is concerned, protective measures have been

21    sought for them.  The Chamber has not received a copy of the letters but

22    just of the translations.  We would like to receive copies of the letters

23    - I take it that they are in French - will be provided to the Chamber

24    this afternoon?

25            MR. IERACE:  Yes, Mr. President, they have been translated.  It

Page 9368

 1    was my decision to not include them because I did not think that they

 2    added anything, but I am more than happy to provide them.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, I do understand that it was your

 4    opinion that they didn't -- that they didn't add anything, but whether

 5    this is the translation of letters, we do not know, because we haven't

 6    seen the letters.  But just on the assumption of the translation being a

 7    proper translation of the letters, the parties may expect the Chamber to

 8    decide next Monday that the protective measures requested will be granted.

 9    And if there would be any dispute as to whether Witness W and Witness Y

10    could testify in this court, the Chamber is of the opinion that they can.

11    The reason why I am saying this is since this issue has been raised in the

12    response of the request for protective measures by the Defence.  That is

13    one issue.

14            The second issue is about the schedule of next week.  The Chamber

15    could, in general terms, agree with this schedule as suggested by you,

16    Mr. Ierace, but does not specifically express itself on Mr. Tucker and

17    whether documents have been communicated in time.  But as a starting

18    point, your schedule suggested for next week is agreed upon by the

19    Chamber.

20            Then the third issue is the request of the Defence to have a break

21    at 5.00 this afternoon.  The Chamber expects the Defence to continue

22    cross-examination up 'til where it can do so, and every minute we lose on

23    this Friday, we will try to gain again next Monday.  As I indicated to

24    you, we are more flexible next Monday.  That means that, if necessary, we

25    would sit also in the afternoon, if all the arrangements can be made.  But

Page 9369

 1    the courtroom is available.  So the time you are not using today, Mr.

 2    Piletta-Zanin and Ms. Pilipovic, will be additionally scheduled for next

 3    Monday.

 4            Yes, Mr. Ierace.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, might I clarify something, because I

 6    think I may have misunderstood you.  After I spoke a few minutes ago, you

 7    referred to the need to check the accuracy of the translations.  Two days

 8    ago, on the 29th of May, we did file the original French request.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  I haven't seen them.  If they have been filed and if

10    by any mistake, it has not reached the Chamber, then, of course, if they

11    are filed, you don't have to provide a second copy of the letters.  That

12    goes without saying.

13            MR. IERACE:  I was referring simply to the covering letters which

14    accompanied the formal request.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  The request we received, we had one annex and the

16    annex consisted of two documents, in English, saying at the bottom line

17    that it was a letter of the French embassy dated the 16th of May.

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

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Page 9370












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Page 9372

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] True.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  If the annexes in French that have been filed on the

 3    29th of May would be the originals, I also know that "note verbale" are

 4    usually not signed, but it gives us no clue as to establish that these

 5    documents, although in French, originate from the French embassy.

 6            MR. IERACE:  I understand, Mr. President, and this afternoon I

 7    will file, or if you prefer, simply hand up, to save time, photocopies of

 8    those original documents and I anticipate you will then see that what has

 9    been annexed is, in fact, what was received.  But full documentation will

10    be provided.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  I'm sorry, Mr. Ierace.  So those documents

13    that are -- these documents come from the French embassy, these requests,

14    is that correct?

15            MR. IERACE:  It is, Your Honour.  There was an accompanying

16    letter, which I think will make that clear.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  I think though there have been a "note verbale," a

18    front page, and then the second page -- well, we will see what we are

19    provided with.

20            So I think all the urgent matters have been dealt with by now.

21    May I ask the usher to --

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we are

23    following this procedure, I think we could continue.  I think there is a

24    decision which is pending with regard to Article 73.  I think you remember

25    we asked for your Trial Chamber to take a decision.  I don't know if that

Page 9373

 1    is correct.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...I signed half an

 3    hour ago a document which gives in writing the reasons for the decisions

 4    -- for the decision to -- already orally given on the 22nd of May, that

 5    the Prosecutor was entitled to add Witness AD to the list.  We did not

 6    take a decision yet on your request to -- but if having seen the decision,

 7    the reasons in writing, if this would cause you to add anything to the

 8    reasons you brought to the attention of the Chamber, why you would like to

 9    appeal against that decision, an opportunity will be given to that and

10    then we will decide.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would be very grateful to

12    the Trial Chamber.  Thank you.

13            MR. IERACE:  Two matters, very quickly.  At page 35, line 4, there

14    was an inadvertent mention of the name of one of the witnesses for whom

15    protective measures have been sought, so perhaps that could be dealt with.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17            MR. IERACE:  And secondly, at the appropriate stage, I wish to be

18    heard as to the appropriateness of issuing a certificate.  On the last

19    occasion that a certificate was sought, it might be said the Prosecution

20    took a fairly neutral stance.  That would not be the case this time.  We

21    would strongly oppose the issue of a certificate in respect of your

22    decision on Witness AD.  Thank you.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  So you would like to have at least an opportunity to

24    have oral argument, even if it would be brief.

25            MR. IERACE:  Yes.

Page 9374

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we took notice of that, Mr. Ierace.

 2            I will take care that the reasons given for the decision in

 3    respect of Witness AD will be distributed among the parties, even today.

 4                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you, Mr. Ierace, please check on page 35 - it

 6    is not in my recollection any more - would it be true that on page 35,

 7    line 2, the name was mentioned because on line 4, I see a name, but that

 8    is not a protected name.  At the very end of the line, 35.2, I think

 9    there it might have been mentioned.

10            MR. IERACE:  That is correct, Mr. President.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Would we have line 4, the name of a UN official

12    is --

13            MR. IERACE:  Actually, Mr. President, I don't think it was line 2.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please locate precisely, but immediately,

15    so that -- we have only limited time to make redactions, and if you would

16    please inform Madam Registrar immediately.

17            Perhaps, meanwhile, we could ask the usher already to escort the

18    witness into the courtroom.

19            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, the transcript has not caught it.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but, of course it is on the audio tape and the

21    videotape.  If you could just try to find out where it has been

22    because --

23            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

24    save time, I will ask for the maps to be distributed while Mr. Ierace is

25    trying to find this part.

Page 9375

 1                          [The witness entered court]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] usual,

 3    procedural issues that you know is the favorite sport of all the lawyers

 4    in courtrooms.

 5            MR. IERACE:  Mr. President, we think it is around page 35, line

 6    11.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  35 line 11, let me just have a look.  I think for

 8    certainty, perhaps, the issues discussed are not such that it would affect

 9    the public character of this trial, so, therefore, I would rather be a bit

10    more liberal in redacting the statement.  If we start at 35, line 1, and

11    if you would stop at 16, wouldn't that be the most safe way of dealing

12    with it?  And if there is any need to reduce the redaction, we always

13    could do it later on.

14            Madam Registrar, page 35, line 1 to 16, yes.

15            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17       Q.   Witness, I don't know if there is a sufficient number of maps for

18    everyone, but I think so.  Witness, we are going to carry on.  I have

19    provided you with a map.  Can you see it?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Witness, I would appreciate it if you could approach the

22    microphone.  It is not for me, it is to facilitate the task of the

23    interpreters.  Thank you very much.

24            Witness, would you like me to address you by a rank?  I will do

25    that willingly.

Page 9376

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Very well.  Witness, can you recognise the map that you have on

 3    your right?

 4       A.   It is not the map that I use, but I recognise the map of

 5    Sarajevo.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, we are going to use this map in a minute.

 7    For the moment, I would like you to answer by "yes" or "no" to the extent

 8    that this is possible and answer the questions that I am going to ask you.

 9    We stopped with the subject of the MUP during the break and you said that

10    you knew that this was a police institution.  My questions are as

11    follows, Witness:  Witness, do you know where the Gras, G-r-a-s, building

12    is located or what one calls the Gras building?

13       A.   No, I don't.  And I if I could elaborate to the Court, I would

14    like to explain why not.

15       Q.   I don't think that is necessary if you don't know.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]... it's enough,

17    Mr. Thomas, that no one expects any knowledge which you do not have.

18            THE WITNESS:  I think, if I could explain to the Chairman, at

19    these places at night, we didn't -- we went to see a commander or a person

20    in a location.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, you don't know so that is accepted by

22    everyone.

23            THE WITNESS:  The name means nothing to me.

24            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 9377

 1            Witness, I apologise, but if you could answer by saying "yes" or

 2    "no," please do so.  The same question for Petar Dakic.

 3       A.   The name means nothing at this time.

 4       Q.   When you say, "at this time," do you mean to say that it meant

 5    something before?

 6       A.   I have no idea.  I can't recall the name.  If I had known it was

 7    going to be raised in Court, I would have looked up in my notes, and maybe

 8    I had dealings with that individual.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Witness, Kulin Ban, is this a name that

10    means something to you?

11       A.   It means nothing to me at this time.

12       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

13            Does the name of Stela in relation to Sarajevo mean anything to

14    you?

15       A.   This name means nothing at these times -- this time and we are

16    not --

17       Q.   Thank you very much.

18            Witness, I didn't ask how you operated - we are wasting time - and

19    your answer is not very agreeable, and I am allowing myself to say so.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  If you were asked whether a name rings a bell, we

21    will easily accept that it does or does not.

22            THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Can I just make a comment though?

23            JUDGE ORIE:  If you could say it in one or two words.

24            THE WITNESS:  I went to locations to meet people --

25            JUDGE ORIE:  No, you are explaining why.  If you don't know

Page 9378

 1    something, it needs no explanation.  You just don't know.

 2            Yes, proceed.

 3            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Very well, thank you, Witness.

 5            Witness, does the name Pavle Goranin mean anything to you; yes or

 6    no?

 7       A.   Not that I recall.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, does the name of Valter Peric mean anything

 9    to you?

10       A.   Not at this time.

11       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, does the name Magros mean anything

12    to you?

13       A.   Not at this time.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, does the name Zica, Z-i-t-s, with a diacritic

15    mark on top, "a," does this mean anything to you?

16       A.   Diacritic mark, that term is not understood.

17       Q.   It is not important.  Does the name that you heard mean anything

18    to you?

19       A.   Not at this time.

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, does the name Kobra in relation to

21    Sarajevo mean anything to you?

22       A.   Not at this time.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, you therefore didn't know that the group

24    Kobra was a paramilitary group in Sarajevo?

25       A.   If I knew a paramilitary group by the name of Kobra --

Page 9379

 1       Q.   Answer "yes" or "no."

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Thank you. Does the name of the Ljiljan group mean anything to

 4    you?

 5       A.   No, sir.

 6       Q.   Thank you very much.

 7            Witness, does the name Drago Prazina mean anything to you?

 8       A.   Not at this time.

 9       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, does the name Fatih mean anything

10    to you?

11       A.   Can you elaborate or how a relationship I might have had --

12       Q.   In relation to Sarajevo, Witness.

13       A.   Not at this time.

14       Q.   Thank you very much.

15            Does the name Sultan Fatih mean anything to you?

16       A.   Not at this time.

17       Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, you were holding a post in

18    Sarajevo.  Can you remind us how many brigades during the period of your

19    stay there, how many brigades were there in Sarajevo?  Were there 10

20    brigades?

21       A.   Well, the number changed because one brigade was dissolved.  I

22    would say there was nine when I left.

23       Q.   Thank you very much for your answer, Witness.

24            Witness, are you in a position to know where, for example, the CC,

25    the command and control, of the 102nd Motorised Brigade was located?

Page 9380

 1       A.   I was in a position to know.  My LO would take me to that

 2    location.

 3       Q.   I am asking you, as a witness, did you know where it was located?

 4       A.   In 1993, I knew where it was located.

 5       Q.   Where was that?

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if the witness says that he knew

 7    it in 1993, the next question, although it might already have been

 8    answered, would be whether he knows now.  As a matter of fact, I

 9    understood his answer as, "I don't know now but I knew it at that time"

10    and it is of no use asking where it was located if he does not know at

11    this very moment.  So would you please then clarify that?   And may I take

12    it that when you are talking about the 10 brigades in Sarajevo, that you

13    are referring to one of the parties in the conflict?  It was not quite

14    clear to me.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, necessarily, Mr.

16    President, when I talk about the 10 brigades, and I did specify that it

17    was in Sarajevo, in the town itself.  In fact, there are two sites since

18    we know that --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...understanding was

20    well since it was neither --

21            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Very well.  I am

22    sorry.

23       Q.   Witness, if I have understood you correctly, you no longer know

24    today, you can no longer remember where the command of the 102nd Brigade

25    was located?

Page 9381

 1       A.   That is correct.  I have been on another operation since then.

 2       Q.   Witness, I am not questioning your memory.  I am trying, like

 3    everyone else, to find out what the truth is, that is all.  And I am

 4    certain that you are going to help us to do this.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you refrain from commenting.

 6      If there is any guidance you would like to give to the witness, would

 7    you please ask me and suggest for the --

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, willingly.

 9       Q.   Witness, as a result, did you know in which building this command

10    was located?

11       A.   I am sure, in 1993, I did know.  I know that I might have been at

12    a meeting there, but I can't recall now at this time.

13       Q.   Very well.  Very well.  Thank you very much.

14            Witness, I am going to -- with the assistance of the usher, a

15    document which bears the number 113, D113.  It is a document that has been

16    provided by the Prosecution.  I will wait for you to be provided with this

17    document before continuing with my series of questions.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have one more document

19    available, if necessary.  Very well.

20       Q.   Witness, first of all, can you recognise this type of document?

21       A.   Yes.  I had a similar document in my intelligence binder.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.

23            Witness, could you please have a look at page 2, the one which

24    finishes with the numbers 5 and 7.  Have you got that page?

25       A.   Yes, I found that page.

Page 9382

 1       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

 2            Do you know where the command post of the 101st Brigade was

 3    located and with regard to the third paragraph?

 4       A.   I am not clear on your question.  The third paragraph?  "It is

 5    estimated that the Bosnians," is that the paragraph in question?

 6       Q.   No, no.  Perhaps you don't have the right page in front of you.

 7       A.   5, 7?

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  I think you have the right page.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   In that case, when I said "paragraph," I mean the paragraphs which

11    include, first of all, a list of brigades, and then they have names in

12    front of it.  This is what I consider to be paragraphs one, two, three.

13            I am going to ask my question again, Witness.  Can you see the

14    101st Brigade in front of you?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Witness, do you know where the command and control post of the

17    101st Brigade was located?

18       A.   I can't recall at this time.

19       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

20            In order to save time, Witness, I would be grateful if you could

21    do the following:  Can you read the entire third paragraph, that is to

22    say, the names that we have marked, and if you know of one of these

23    brigades and where its precise location was with regard to the

24    headquarters, I would be very grateful if you could let us know this.

25    Could you do that?

Page 9383

 1            And could the interpreters please have a copy, if there is a copy

 2    available.

 3            The English booth has asked me for a copy, and for the B/C/S and

 4    French booths, if possible.

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  Do you have two additional copies,

 6    Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:  Unfortunately not, not at the moment, but we

 8    could try to do some copies later.

 9            THE WITNESS:  I can give you a quick answer.  At this time,

10    without my own personal map which I carried in Sarajevo, I cannot point

11    out on any map that you have provided me with the exact locations.  If I

12    can tell you that --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, the question was whether you could --

14    whether you would know at this time.  The answer is, you don't know.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Thank you, Witness, thank you for this answer.  Witness, I am

17    going to ask you the same question.

18            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know if we have any

19    technical problems, Mr. President.  I don't think that we have --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  We have to wait for a while, since the French court

21    reporter doesn't receive any text.

22            THE INTERPRETER:  The French booth is not working presently, Mr.

23    President.  For some reason, the console is not responding.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have to wait until the French court

25    reporter --

Page 9384

 1            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Who is not responding?

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  It now functions again, as far as I am informed.

 3            Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will proceed then.

 5       Q.   I think that, a minute ago, you said that you didn't know the

 6    exact locations of the totality of these brigades.  I am going to ask you

 7    the question, Witness, before we stop for a break a little earlier today.

 8    My question is:  Did you know where the control and command posts at the

 9    level of battalions were located for each of these brigades?

10       A.   To ask me to recall these locations at this time without my own

11    personal map is -- it shows lack of knowledge of the tactical situation

12    on the ground.  I knew my way --

13       Q.   I will interrupt you, Witness.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...the answers that

15    you don't know them.  There is nothing wrong with not knowing them.

16            Mr. Thomas, the Defence may ask the questions it would like to ask

17    you.  Whether you find them wise or intelligent or silly or stupid is not

18    of any importance.  The Defence asks the questions and if you would please

19    answer them.

20            THE WITNESS:  Can I just make one comment, that he said that I did

21    not know where they were.  I said I knew where they were at the time.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Witness, please.  Unfortunately, I am not questioning you with

24    regard to in the past, but I am questioning you today.

25            Witness, am I to assume that your answer would be the same for the

Page 9385

 1    command and control posts of companies?

 2       A.   I would have a better chance of showing you on the ground.  The

 3    answer is, at this time, I can't show you.

 4       Q.   It would be a pleasure to go the Sarajevo with you but --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues]...would you please

 6    refrain from commenting on the answers.  If you want --

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

 8    this would be an ideal moment to stop.

 9            Mr. President, I think that you told us that we could go as far as

10    we could, and I don't think that we can go much further, we can proceed

11    much further.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] the witness and

13    you may indicate, not out of irritation, but when the subject matter

14    you would like to deal with is completed.

15            Please proceed.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

17       Q.   Witness, could you answer by saying "yes" or "no"?   My first

18    question:  Are you capable of answering a question by saying "yes" or

19    "no"?

20       A.   It depends on the question.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   That is what I was afraid of.

24            JUDGE ORIE:   Let's stop having a debate between witness and

25    counsel.  I both call upon you, Mr. Thomas, and on you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

Page 9386

 1    otherwise, I will have to intervene and have -- at any specific question,

 2    have to decide on whether it can be answered by "yes" or "no."

 3            Mr. Thomas, do your utmost best to see whether you can answer the

 4    questions by "yes" or "no."  Yes?

 5            Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 6            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 7    Mr. President.

 8       Q.   Witness, may I assume that your answer would be the same to a

 9    question regarding the command and control posts of companies?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

12            Witness, could you please have a look at this page which finishes

13    with the number 57.

14            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you ask

15    the witness to approach the microphone, for the sake of the interpreters.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Please assist -- I am sorry, I have forgotten to put

17    on my microphone.  Would you please speak as good as you can into the

18    microphone, Mr. Thomas.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Do you have this document in front of you, Witness?

21       A.   Yes, I do.

22       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  At the bottom of this page, the one -- the

23    paragraph which is just before the last one, can you see a list of

24    weapons?  Can you see that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9387

 1       Q.   Could you tell us what the abbreviation, the acronym, "MA" or "ML"

 2    150 corresponds to?

 3       A.   150 millimetre is the calibre of gun.

 4       Q.   Witness, my question was:  What do the acronyms "ML" -- what does

 5    the acronym "ML" stand for?

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you can see in the transcript,

 7    it was presumably translated - although I am following the direct channel

 8    - the acronym "MA" or "ML."  But you are asking about "ML."

 9            Mr. Thomas, could you please tell us what "ML" stands for?

10            THE WITNESS:  In fact, as I understand it, it is "M-1."

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes.  What stand then "M-1" for?

12            THE WITNESS:  That is a calibre of gun -- that is a calibre of --

13    it is a type of gun, and it is probably found in the Yugoslav army

14    handbook, the exact type of gun.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16       Q   Very well.  But do you know what the corresponds to, what this

17    acronym stands for?

18       A.   It stands for a type of gun.

19       Q.   We have understood that.  Do you know what it corresponds to, yes

20    or no? And if "yes" --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  What type of gun is M-1?

22            THE WITNESS:  It is an artillery piece.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  A specific one or --?

24            THE WITNESS:  It is a specific one, and I would look it up in my

25    handbook to identify it correctly, exactly what -- but it is an artillery

Page 9388












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 9389

 1    piece that fires a 150-millimetre shell.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  May I understand your answer is that you could not

 3    indicate what weapon it stands for but it does stand for a type of weapon

 4    which you would have to look up to know for sure what specific type?

 5            THE WITNESS:  To be precise, yes, I would look it up.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   Is it correct, Witness, that "MOR" that we can see below stands

10    for a mortar?  This abbreviation stands for a mortar?

11       A.   That is correct.

12       Q.   Is it true that the figures 3-4 that we can see by the side mean

13    that there were three or 4 mortars of 120 millimetres which were

14    identified?

15       A.   It means that they reported that these weapons were known to be

16    there.

17       Q.   Thank you.  I would like you to provide me with a similar type of

18    answer for what we can see in front of mortars of 82 millimetres,

19    82-millimetre calibre mortars.  Were there between two and five mortar

20    pieces which were identified by the services in question?

21       A.   At first, this UNPROFOR report was not necessarily military

22    observer, but it tells you that between two to five mortars were suspected

23    in that location, because the exact number couldn't be determined.

24       Q.   Very well.  So the answer is "yes."

25            Witness, what does "BP" stand for?  What does the abbreviation

Page 9390

 1    "BP" stand for?

 2       A.   BP is put in front of numbers that is used on a specific map

 3    sheet.

 4       Q.   Since this is specific and you knew about it, could you tell us

 5    what it refers to?

 6       A.   The map is divided into coordinates and each of these coordinates,

 7    because the numbers repeat themselves, the coordinates are given letters

 8    to assist in identification.  Is this clear enough or do you want further

 9    explanation?

10       Q.   No.  Perhaps we will require other clarifications from you at a

11    later stage.  Thank you.

12            Witness, I would like you to read in the upper part of the

13    paragraph that you have in front of you - if you can find your glasses or

14    if you need them - approximately how many men were there in Sarajevo.

15       A.   As I read this paragraph, it says:  "Estimated approximately

16    25.000 men."  Both of these are terms in English we use to be -- about a

17    situation which there is no definitive answer.  Estimated and approximated

18    25.000 men.

19       Q.   That is perfect.

20            Was that the so-called BH army?

21       A.   This army was identified by us as the Bosnian army.

22       Q.   Very well.  I am going to try to ask you questions with regard to

23    the Bosnian army on the one hand, the so-called government army, and how

24    did you call -- what did you call the other army, if you please, the

25    Serbian army?

Page 9391

 1       A.   The Bosnian army was called the Bosnian army and the Serb army

 2    was called the Bosnian Serb army.

 3       Q.   Very well.  So I will try to refer to them as such.

 4            Witness, is it true that you made a written statement before

 5    giving testimony and you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor;

 6    yes or no?

 7       A.   That is correct.

 8       Q.   Thank you very much.

 9            Is it true, Witness, that as part of this statement, with regard

10    to the strategy of the Bosnian army, you stated that:  "People from the

11    Bosnian army wanted to use the town on a strategic level as a reservoir to

12    enable soldiers to come in or go out with regard to other fronts and, in

13    particular, with regard to Gorazde or other pockets."

14       A.   Either the English hasn't come across clearly or he has misstated

15    my testimony that I gave in 1998.  I would like to see a copy of the

16    witness statement or to have it rephrased.

17       Q.   I shall show you your statement in a minute.  But is this

18    something that you said, roughly speaking?

19       A.   No, it doesn't capture what I said at all to the person from this

20    Tribunal that interviewed me.

21       Q.   Very well.  We will see about that in a minute.

22            Witness, did you state that a certain amount of shelling -- that

23    civilian zones were shelled to a certain extent and in a purely random

24    manner?

25       A.   Yes.  I can't confirm that --

Page 9392

 1       Q.   Thank you for that answer.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  The question at this moment was:  Is that what you

 3    stated?  If you say, "I stated in a certain context" - I am not asking you

 4    now to add any context - but if it was in a certain context and you would

 5    like to explain briefly, you are allowed to do so.  But you are not

 6    allowed to add the context now, because you were asked about your

 7    statement.

 8            THE WITNESS:  I would like to have a copy of the witness statement

 9    that I gave in 1998.  I have, of course, one in the witness room, but I

10    can't recall exactly in this room exactly what the wording I used when I

11    talked to the Tribunal in 1998.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you are referring to the

13    statement of the witness, he expressed quite clearly that he would like to

14    be confronted with this --

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] He will be confronted in a

16    while.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] the last

18    question.  He would already like to be confronted with at least the words

19    in the statement.  So would you please read that slowly to him.

20            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.  But I will reformulate

21    my question.

22       Q.   Witness, in the examination-in-chief, you answered a few questions

23    about the shelling of civilian areas.  Do you remember that?

24       A.   Yes, I have answered questions about the questions of civilian

25    areas.

Page 9393

 1       Q.   As regards to those civilian areas, Witness, the question is the

 2    following:  As a tank officer, how can you formally and definitely exclude

 3    the presence of mobile military targets of any sort which would be located

 4    in a civilian zone, what one can consider to be a civilian zone, when

 5    firing is ongoing?

 6       A.   The question is difficult to answer in just "yes" or "no."  It

 7    depends whether I am already on the ground or whether I am arriving after

 8    to determine my conclusions.  Do you want me to proceed?

 9       Q.   No.  I will reframe my question.

10            Witness, you observed -- were observing firing in a zone that you

11    considered to be a civilian area; is that correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   How, if you can -- how can you categorically rule out that, at the

14    moment of the firing, or perhaps a bit before the firing, there hadn't

15    been on that particular spot a kind of military mobile object?

16       A.   In some cases, I couldn't rule out; in some cases, I could.

17       Q.   Very well.  I shall note down your answer because you said that,

18    in some cases, it could not be excluded.  Could you tell me, please, why

19    could this not be excluded?

20       A.   Because in one case that comes to mind, I could see one of my OPs

21    being shelled, and the military observers in that location definitely

22    confirmed that there was no other military people in that presence, in

23    that area, except themselves and the civilians that lived in their

24    accommodation.

25       Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 9394

 1            We are referring to very specific situation where the command

 2    posts themselves were affected.  I am not saying targeted, but touched,

 3    hit.

 4       A.   Could you rephrase your question, because I am not sure what you

 5    are trying to question me about.

 6       Q.   In the cases that you have been talking about, that is, situations

 7    in which the observation posts are -- these situations directly relate to

 8    command -- to observation posts?

 9       A.   The situations reflect my observation post, and there is no

10    military post adjacent to it because our practice was to keep military

11    posts from either belligerent away from our OP location, except if we had

12    a liaison function there.  I can specifically detail cases of where we

13    observed artillery fire on the ground, hitting civilians, and we knew that

14    there were nobody else in that location.

15       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

16            Please try, since you understand French perfectly, to follow my

17    question.  The cases that you mentioned are cases where the UN observation

18    posts were -- that had to do with the UN observation posts directly?

19            I shall not continue.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  The question was:  Whether the cases you mentioned

21    are case where the UN observations posts were -- that had to do with the

22    UN observations post directly.  You nodded, but unfortunately, in the

23    transcript, nodding doesn't appear.  It cannot be translated.  So would

24    you please answer in words?

25            THE WITNESS:  The cases I referred to are ones that I can

Page 9395

 1    categorically say there were no UN -- there were no military presence

 2    there because I had military observers there.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you were referring to UN observation posts.

 4    Yes.

 5            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6       Q.   So your reply -- would you like a break?

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, put your next question to the

 8    witness, please.

 9            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Witness, your reply was that those cases relate to situations

11    where the military observers were directly targeted?

12       A.   No.  I think that --

13       Q.   Directly concerned is the word.  I have to follow both.  Were

14    directly involved.

15       A.   That isn't correct.  These are cases that I can categorically say

16    that military observers saw civilians being shelled, but there was no

17    Bosnian presence.

18       Q.   All right.  Thank you.

19            So you are telling us that what the military observers say are

20    correct, as a rule, are correct and can be verified?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.

23            I would like to give you some documents, I just want to number

24    them.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think we will be referring

Page 9396

 1    to number 114, then we shall have number 115. [No interpretation]

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any translation problem because -- [No

 3    interpretation]

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Receiving the Serbian.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Are the two languages separated again?  Yes, then

 6    please proceed.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I answered

 8    directly.  It is all right now.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Unfortunately, the interpreters have not

10    received these papers.

11            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, there is practically

12    nothing to translate and that is the reason why.

13       Q.   Witness, you have the document 114 in front of you?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            Witness, is it a document that comes from the services that you

17    were responsible for at a given period of time?

18       A.   No.  It appears to be a document issued by the French sector

19    headquarters.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mundis.

21            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, I would like to raise an objection on

22    two grounds.  The first one is the documents appear, on their face of it,

23    to be outside the time period that the witness was in Sarajevo; and second

24    of all, as is obvious from the face of the documents, these are Rule 70

25    documents, and if my learned colleague intends on going into the contents

Page 9397

 1    of these documents, I would respectfully request that we do so in closed

 2    session.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's first deal with the first one.

 4                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mundis, your first objection is denied since,

 6    even if it would be outside of the period -- if it would be outside the

 7    period in which the witness was functioning in Sarajevo, it could be

 8    relevant in a general assessment of the position, since the witness also

 9    had to rely on those supporting him and then the period of time is not

10    always decisive.

11            As far as the second issue is concerned, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you

12    just do some arithmetics, it might not affect the confidant of the

13    documents, but if you refer to dates, times and if it comes to anything

14    more, we should turn into closed session.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is only a

16    question of arithmetics and logic.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  And whatever reference to times and type of, and just

18    refer to lines so that we can all follow you.

19            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right.  I would like to

20    mention that I have not received a full answer from you about the question

21    of translation, but I understood.

22       Q.   Witness, you have in front of you that document.

23            Could you read item 2.  I think this is possible, this sentence

24    that is in front.

25       A.   Are you referring to para 2 or item 2?

Page 9398

 1       Q.   I said item 2.

 2       A.   If I can just read it so I can make sure I am reading the

 3    paragraph, you are reading:  "The following outgoing fire was observed

 4    from Presidency positions, artillery, nil; mortars, nil."

 5       Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

 6            Would you now read what you have just read under item 3.

 7       A.   Yes.  "The following incoming fire was observed on Serb controlled

 8    areas."  Yes?

 9       Q.   A and B?

10       A.   "Artillery 13, mortar 46."

11       Q.   Thank you.

12            Could you read C, "MRL"?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Is that an abbreviation for a multiple rocket launcher?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Do you have AAA -- an AAA gun, an anti-aircraft gun, an

17    AAA?

18       A.   Not on this document.

19       Q.   You don't see any AAAs in that document?

20       A.   There is a heading for AAA, but there is no quantity shown

21    next to that item.

22       Q.   My question did not relate to the number of shots.  It was a

23    question about the abbreviation.

24       A.   That is correct.

25       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

Page 9399

 1       A.   "AAA" stands for anti-aircraft.

 2       Q.   How can you, if you can, explain the mathematical coherence --

 3    incoherence?

 4       A.   Between what items?

 5       Q.   Witness, don't you see any mathematical incoherence in that

 6    document?

 7       A.   The problem is that this document was almost six to eight months

 8    before I arrived in Sarajevo --

 9       Q.   Witness --

10       A.   I can't answer this question because it was too far in advance of

11    my time.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if there is any mathematical

13    incoherence, would you please tell the witness in what respect so he can

14    answer the question.

15            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do so.

16       Q.   Witness, according to your military observers, it is exact that

17    13 artillery impacts were received on the Serb side; is that correct?

18       A.   In this report, that is what is stated.

19       Q.   Thank you.

20            And according to the report and the military observers, there

21    were no artillery -- there was no artillery fire from the side of the

22    Presidency; is that correct?

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you to quote this

24    document correctly?

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

Page 9400

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  It says that:  "No outgoing artillery fire was

 2    observed from Presidency positions."  That is what it says.

 3            Your question said:  "That according to your military observers

 4    is it exact that 13 artillery impacts were received" -- first you

 5    mentioned -- you mix up observations and numbers.  So would you please be

 6    very precise in that respect.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I will.

 8       Q.   Witness, is it correct that from the Presidency positions, on

 9    that day, no artillery firing was observed on that day, according to this

10    document?

11       A.   I would also call the attention of the --

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please first answer the question.

13            THE WITNESS:  That means that the military observers did not

14    observe any fire, but there is a caveat written at the top of the page.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   We will go back to this in a while, if it is necessary.

18            Is it correct, Witness, that from the Presidency position side

19    there were no mortar, there was no mortar firing observed under item 2?

20       A.   There was no mortar fire observed by military observers.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President --

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Just for the sake of the translation, because it

24    comes down to the very precise meaning of the words, in page 63, line 9,

25    the English transcript says: "There was no mortar firing observed."  And I

Page 9401

 1    heard that Mr. Piletta-Zanin said "noter" in French which means, as far as

 2    I am correct, doesn't mean "not observed," but "not put on paper."  Not

 3    noted down; is that correct?

 4            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would say that I don't

 5    remember the term used.  It is more or less the same.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Witness, now I would like to provide you with a second group of

 9    documents, numbers 115 -- I apologise.  You already have 115.  Now, the

10    next number is 116.  So 115 has already been distributed.

11            Witness, can we do the same sort of exercise.  What sort of

12    document is this?

13       A.   This is a daily sit-rep issued by one of my predecessors several

14    months before I ever was in Yugoslavia.

15       Q.   Witness, could you please read the same items.

16       A.   "The following outgoing fire was observed from the Serb

17    positions and only 12 outgoing artillery rounds are noted as being

18    observed.  The other categories are nil.  The following outgoing fire was

19    observed from Presidency positions," which I assume to be Bosnian because

20    we didn't use this term.

21            "Artillery," the only one is 12 -- the only category is 12 mortar

22    rounds were observed by military observers.  In "incoming,"  that is what

23    "inc-rep" stands for to clarify for those who are not aware yet, "The

24    following incoming fire was observed on Serb controlled areas and we have

25    26 mortar rounds as reported impacting on Serb controlled areas."  Then we

Page 9402

 1    talk about, "The following incoming fire was observed."  And I would ask

 2    the interpreters to take note of the term and point --

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, if the interpreters need any specific

 4    guidance, I will give it to them and if you think they should be given,

 5    you should address me, not to the interpreters.

 6            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that it is almost time

 8    to make a break.

 9       Q.   But I would like the witness to simply read the last figure that

10    he was about to read a minute ago.

11       A.  "The following incoming fire was observed on Bosnian-controlled

12    areas:  Artillery, 4; mortar, 32; tank, nil; MRS, nil; AAA, nil."

13       Q.   Thank you very much.

14            Witness, do you know how many multiple launchers did the Sarajevo

15    forces, that is the forces of the Presidency, have?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Can you tell us how many?

18       A.   No.  You can look it up in the document given to the Court in the

19    weapons collections point documents.

20       Q.   The Chamber has received nothing.  If you know how many, tell us;

21    if you don't --

22       A.   I don't know at this time.

23       Q.   Thank you very much.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you be able to tell if you could consult --

25            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 9403

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

 2            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it is a time to make a

 3    break and at this stage.  The Defence would like the break that it had

 4    requested before.  I think it would be excellent time for it.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean that we continue at 6.00, Mr.

 6    Piletta-Zanin?

 7            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. That means that we would

 8    like to stop here.  The Defence would like to have a break now and that we

 9    should stop now as I had asked.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  This is how far the Defence comes today.  Then we

11    have another issue to discuss and that is, Mr. Thomas, would you, although

12    I know that your travel schedule was foreseen to return this evening, but

13    as you might have noticed, the examination and cross-examination is not

14    concluded yet.  Would you be available next Monday?

15            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for your flexibility in your

17    programme.  We will then adjourn until next Monday at 9.00 in the

18    morning, same courtroom.

19            Mr. Mundis, is there still -- oh, you have the letters.

20            MR. MUNDIS:  I do, perhaps.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have to keep the map for the time being.

22            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that would be easier.

23    That would be easier.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Travelling with these maps is not that simple for us.

25      Is there anything else, Mr. Mundis?

Page 9404

 1            MR. MUNDIS:  If, perhaps, I believe I need to offer a brief

 2    explanation with respect to the letter, if that is possible.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  As explanation in respect of the letter.

 4            MR. MUNDIS:  I have, Mr. President, copies of the letter from the

 5    French government.  There have been certain redactions made to the French

 6    letter because it relates to the travel arrangements and security

 7    arrangements with respect to one of the witnesses.  I am prepared to allow

 8    the Bench to see the original to confirm what has been redacted, however,

 9    I have been requested to obtain the original copy and only distribute the

10    redacted versions, if I may be allowed to do so.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  If we could see at this very moment --

12            MR. MUNDIS:  Absolutely, and I do have a copy for the Defence and

13    a copy for the Registry.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Usher, you could, since this does not

15    affect in any way Mr. Thomas, perhaps you could escort him out of the

16    courtroom.

17            We will see you back at 9.00 in the morning next Monday,

18    Mr. Thomas.  Thank you very much.

19                          [The witness stands down]

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Pilipovic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has

21    checked whether the redacted part of the letter would contain anything of

22    any importance for the Defence.  It just contains the arrangements of a

23    meeting with the OTP, times, places, et cetera, which are requested to be

24    kept secret.  Nothing else.  Yes.

25            MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right.  Agreed.

Page 9405












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 9406

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, please return this to Mr. Mundis.

 2                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Anything else at this very moment?  If not, we will,

 4    although it is a bit difficult, adjourn for the second --

 5    Judge Nieto-Navia has something.

 6            JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA:  I would like to point out that the letter of

 7    the Minister of Foreign Affairs, says or mentions "aide-memoire,"  a

 8    memory aid.  I think that the Prosecutor should have mentioned that in the

 9    memorandum just to help us to understand what kind of papers we are

10    dealing with.

11            MR. MUNDIS:  Our apologies for that.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  If there is nothing else, I now, almost for the third

13    time, adjourn until next Monday morning, same courtroom.  I wish you a

14    good weekend.

15                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16                          5.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

17                          the 3rd day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.