Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11047

1 Wednesday, 3 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that you wanted to address the

12 Chamber.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right,

14 Mr. President. I shall be as brief as possible. I thank you for giving

15 me the floor, Mr. President. The reason why, that is, the Defence wanted

16 to address the Chamber very briefly concerns both the testimony of the

17 witness that we are going to hear shortly and another matter. As for this

18 other matter is concerned, when the French General was examined yesterday,

19 the Prosecution wanted to help the Defence in order to help the Defence

20 with the references of the text, which made us lose a lot of time because

21 the references were not correct. I am talking about the page and the

22 paragraph. So if we are going to save the time, I don't think that that

23 is the right procedure. So we would like that, in future, the

24 intervention of the Prosecution should be made in a different language,

25 not English, and as efficiently as possible. And we would also wish that

Page 11048

1 these interventions be accurate, which yesterday --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we are not going to discuss what

3 happened yesterday. It is in my mind that the Prosecution tried to assist

4 you and that by -- caused by some unlucky circumstances, small mistakes,

5 that their intention did not work out as they wished it would. Let's not

6 spend time. Mistakes will be there. I am not going to say that there is

7 more mistakes here or there. Let's not spend too much time on that.

8 Please come to your next matter.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The second matter which is a

10 more important one is the following: It regards the witness Richard

11 Mole, the one that we are going to hear shortly. As far as this witness

12 is concerned, the Defence, as they indicated yesterday, is not going to

13 continue its cross-examination except under certain reservations.

14 Specifically, the Defence notes that there has been a contact between the

15 Prosecution and the witness. Although we asked the witness to leave the

16 courtroom, that is, we asked that the witness be asked to leave the

17 courtroom, the Prosecution clearly stated their position. They even

18 indicated that, as far as they were concerned, they consider Lukavica,

19 that is General Galic, to be responsible for -- no, Mr. President, I

20 really wish to continue because --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, am I correct when a similar

22 complaint was made yesterday and that we gave ruling on that?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wish to ask

24 the Chamber to reconsider its decision. When the Defence is asking the

25 Chamber to reconsider its decision, the Defence is very often interrupted,

Page 11049

1 whereas this is not the case with the Prosecution.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So your request is that we reconsider the decision.

3 I will then now allow you to add to what has been said yesterday, whatever

4 is new in respect of that. And --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... of what has been

7 yesterday. Until now -- I should check precisely, but 95 to 98 per cent

8 sounded rather familiar in my ears.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what is new,

11 but I say that I cannot express it the way I would like to express it, we

12 are now addressing a specific request. We wish that this witness simply

13 be excluded from the witness list because -- and this is a new element --

14 because all of the cross-examination that we can conduct will necessarily

15 have as its result of the examination of the witness something which is

16 not regular in terms of procedure. And that is the reason why we are

17 addressing this formal request to the Chamber to strike the witness from

18 the list of witnesses and to fulfill our application.

19 Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I will consult first within the Chamber, after I have

21 given the opportunity to Mr. Ierace to respond very briefly, only to those

22 aspects that are new, and that is that the witness should be stricken from

23 the list of witnesses.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have nothing to add to the

25 submissions that I made yesterday. I think they apply just as well to

Page 11050

1 this fresh course of action that my friend seeks. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I should add that, if you wish, I

5 would take you to those submissions yesterday, if it is required.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have the submissions on my computer. Well, it is

7 around page 11.005, that is where I find them. And I am just checking

8 more in detail what you exactly told us.

9 MR. IERACE: If it saves time, I can recap them in two sentences.

10 The first is that nothing I said went outside the evidence the witness had

11 already given and, therefore, there can be no contamination of the

12 witness's evidence. Thank you.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber prefers to withdraw for a moment because

15 it's not the most easy way to deliberate, looking to the left and to the

16 right. We need a bit more time. If everyone would please stand by. And

17 could I have a written transcript of yesterday. I have it on my computer

18 now, but I can't take the computer with me.

19 --- Break taken at 9.17 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 9.50 a.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has taken the effort to re-read again the

22 transcript of yesterday and notices that it was the witness, Mr. Mole,

23 himself who mentioned already the Croatian aspects, the Croatian attacks,

24 as I may call them so in respect of Lukavica. If there would have been

25 any contamination, and it is a rather complex matter seeing the evidence

Page 11051

1 he gave already, the part of the reports, but if there would be any

2 contamination in respect of these Croatian attacks and the role of

3 Lukavica and/or the accused, then this contamination would have been

4 adequately dealt with by sustaining the objection and not admitting any

5 further questions on the aspects which are, I would say, outside Sarajevo.

6 The Chamber finds, as it did yesterday, no reason to exclude, in

7 general terms, the evidence of this witness, apart from the exclusion of

8 further questions yesterday. This Chamber consists of professional Judges

9 and we will carefully take into account when evaluating evidence or

10 assessing the probative value of evidence the concerns of the Defence in

11 respect of the -- of what they consider to be contamination. That is the

12 ruling.

13 So the Defence may continue the cross-examination they started

14 already yesterday.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like

16 to thank the Chamber. For the record, simply, note should be taken that

17 we will probably appeal the decision pursuant to Article 73(B). So the

18 cross-examination will continue but under the same reservations that I

19 have already indicated. Omission in the French booth: And/or the accused

20 in line 5.23 and/or I am just taking the opportunity when the witness is

21 not present in the courtroom to draw attention to this problem.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness be brought into the

23 courtroom again.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, page 5, line

25 3.

Page 11052

1 [The witness entered court]


3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole, good morning. I am sorry that you had to

4 wait for more time than perhaps you would have expected.

5 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed after I remind you, Mr. Mole, that

6 you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the

7 beginning of your testimony.

8 THE WITNESS: Understood.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mole.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Before I continue with my cross-examination, Mr. Mole, I should

15 like you to explain to us in a little more detail the answer that you gave

16 yesterday in response to a question asked by my learned colleague. It

17 actually happened on several occasions. Your answer was: "I believe that

18 this was the case, that this is so."

19 Am I correct in having understood your answers on several

20 occasions as having been, "Yes, I think that this is so."

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: We are not quoting

22 witness's words because we do not have the transcript.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question doesn't seem to make a

24 lot of sense. My learned colleague has given the answers but hasn't given

25 the questions, or perhaps she could give some sense of the question, some

Page 11053

1 clue as to the context of the answer: "I believe that this was the

2 case, that this is so."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we've got on our screen a message from

4 the interpreters that they are not quoting witness's words because the

5 interpreters have no transcript.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was not quoting

7 witness's responses. I merely wanted the witness to confirm to us that

8 that was more or less what he said. It was just my interpretation of his

9 words. Page 43 of yesterday's transcript, for example, witness's answer

10 was, and I should like to hear the confirmation of the witness: "I

11 believe that this is so." Perhaps I am not quoting it accurately; I am

12 paraphrasing his words.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole, Ms. Pilipovic would like to know that if

14 you use words such as "I believe that it was the case," whether you then

15 mean to say, "Yes, I think that it is so."

16 THE WITNESS: If I given an affirmative, "yes," then I was there

17 at the time and I am positive of my answer. If I wasn't present at the

18 event that is being discussed but I believe that that was the case, that's

19 when I would use that expression.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is the problem with my learned

21 colleague not contextualising the answer with the question because --

22 JUDGE ORIE: It is clear now, I think, that a general answer

23 could not be given in this respect. That's what you tell us: "It depends

24 on when I use these words that I've not been present and I gave the answer

25 on the basis of the information I had which could be -- " well, whatever.

Page 11054

1 THE WITNESS: If I might say, I did qualify my answers by

2 suggesting that I wasn't, for example, at the meeting in June 1992 and,

3 therefore, any answer I gave about that meeting would be, "I believe so"

4 because I wasn't there.


6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you for your answer, Mr. Mole. Just to clarify, when you

8 say you were not there but believed that that was the case, are you

9 confirming that you -- are you telling us that you are not sure?

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that it is about June 1992,

11 Ms. Pilipovic?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't ask the

13 witness about any specific example, but the witness himself provided us

14 with an example. If he said that that was in the month of June and he was

15 not there, he told us that he was not sure. I am asking in general in

16 cases when he was not there. But when he said that he believed that that

17 was the case, I wanted him to confirm that he is actually not sure that

18 that was the case if he was not present then and there or if he did not

19 attend a meeting or a conversation during his tour of duty, that is, from

20 September until December, 1993.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, please ask the witness, but he made clear that

22 he chooses his words according to the circumstances of what he is asked

23 about. So whether it is of any use to ask this in general terms... But

24 please proceed and we will hear what the answer will be.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11055

1 Q. So let us summarise this question and your answer in a sense that

2 what you are saying is that where you were, where you were present, when

3 you say, "I believe so," then you are certain that this is so? Did I

4 understand your answer correctly?

5 A. No, you didn't.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I try to repeat your answer and see whether my

7 understanding as well and whether Ms. Pilipovic would then agree.

8 Did you explain to us that when you use the words "I believe so,"

9 that you have to make this reservation because you were not present at the

10 event you were asked about?

11 THE WITNESS: I am prepared to qualify in contextual terms all my

12 answers from now on, if that will assist.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, well, that is more or less what

14 we -- please ask in contextual terms an explanation of the answer of the

15 witness and not in general terms any more.

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Mole, you told us yesterday that you gave a statement to the

19 Office of the Prosecutor in September 1997 and at one point, when there

20 was a question raised regarding Mr. Kosovac, you told us then - and I am

21 going to interpret your words - you said that what you said was a

22 statement given five years ago and that, at this point, you could not now

23 interpret the events the way you interpreted them five years ago. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. No, it is not correct. What I said was, I could not recall,

Page 11056












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Page 11057

1 sitting here, the function of the individual.

2 Q. Could you confirm to us that your statement regarding the events

3 in the relevant period of time in Sarajevo, while you were in Sarajevo,

4 and what you told the investigators in 1997, could you confirm that your

5 memory then was a lot fresher than it is now and that you were able to be

6 more accurate when you gave your statement then regarding those events in

7 question?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mole.

10 Yesterday, we spoke of the Airport Agreement from June 1992, and

11 you confirmed to us that this was an important step that was undertaken in

12 order to separate the warring factions in the city.

13 Did you personally have an opinion about this agreement and about

14 this measure that was taken on both sides? So what was your assessment

15 of this measure taken by both sides? Specifically, what I mean is: What

16 did you think about it from the point of view from the Serb side?

17 A. My task in Sarajevo was not to regard any action or agreement

18 from one side as opposed to the other. My task was to interpret the

19 Airport Agreement and invoke its terms. My opinion about the agreement

20 was irrelevant.

21 Q. Mr. Mole, I will remind you, you said in your statement on page

22 0090149, you said that, regarding the Serb side, this step in handing over

23 the airport from the very beginning of the conflict should be appreciated

24 considering that the Serbs were in a position of -- tactically, in a

25 battle position?

Page 11058

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Now, this position that you just confirmed, was this also

3 appreciated in the same way in other circles of military observers?

4 A. Yes. It is a military assessment and so clearly the military

5 observers would appreciate it as such.

6 Q. In your opinion, at that time when you were on duty, was there a

7 balance of sorts between the warring factions that you could personally

8 make an assessment of?

9 A. If I may divide my answer into two parts: Firstly, militarily,

10 there was significant difference between the two sides in terms of

11 disposition, quantity, quality, of forces. There was a status quo as

12 relates to the front line which remained virtually intact throughout my

13 tour.

14 Q. Mr. Mole, within the Airport Agreement, could you confirm to us --

15 and I think that this was one of your tasks, to make sure that the

16 ceasefire is implemented between the warring parties. Is that correct?

17 A. It is a function of UN military observers to maintain the terms

18 of a ceasefire, should that condition prevail.

19 Q. So when you say that you were making sure that these conditions

20 are respected, could you tell us how much did you know, to what extent

21 did the warring parties respect this ceasefire? And I am talking about

22 the period while you were in Sarajevo.

23 A. During my tenure in Sarajevo, there was only one ceasefire signed

24 on the 11th of November, 1992, remembering that the June agreement was

25 before I appeared in Sarajevo. That was meant to be a city-wide

Page 11059

1 ceasefire. Of course, we performed our functions to monitor that

2 ceasefire and insist upon it but, in reality, the level of violence only

3 reduced after that ceasefire. So there was never really an effective

4 ceasefire throughout my tenure.

5 Q. Mr. Mole, you just told us that the first ceasefire came into

6 force in June 1992. Did you, from your predecessor that you took over

7 from as the commander, did you have any information from him that during

8 the period between August, July, there were any breaches or violations of

9 this ceasefire agreement by the BH army which at the time was in the

10 process of carrying out operation called Jug? [Realtime transcript read in

11 error "Uke"] Did you have any such information, did you receive it? And

12 that this operation was an offensive operation which lasted until

13 September 1992?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

15 transcript, I can see that translation, I believe that the name of the

16 operation is "Jug", that is J-u-g; that means "south."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for your assistance.

18 Would you answer the question, Mr. Mole.

19 THE WITNESS: May I just read the question again on the screen,

20 please. My predecessor did not explain to me that there had been any

21 particular operation on either side during the period prior to my arrival

22 in Sarajevo. But what was clear was that there had been no ceasefire

23 during that period.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You spoke of this period and the ceasefire that was agreed on the

Page 11060

1 11th of November, 1992. Since you were there at the time, could you

2 perhaps tell us whether in that period there were violations of the

3 ceasefire, specifically by the BH army?

4 A. The level of violence reduced after the 11th of November for a

5 period of approximately seven days. But at no stage in that period or any

6 other whilst I was in Sarajevo was there an effective ceasefire on either

7 side.

8 Q. Could you please answer: Which side was violating the ceasefire?

9 Specifically, I will remind you that for the 18th of November, 1992, in

10 the monthly report, it was written that the Presidency had carried out an

11 attack in the area of Zuc.

12 A. May I explain --

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


15 MR. IERACE: I have the monthly report. I have the date of the

16 18th of November, 1992, but the question asked by my friend really now is

17 in two parts. The first part of that is simply which side was violating

18 the ceasefire; and the second part is, in effect, a drawing of the

19 witness's attention in a way which detracts from the ability to fairly

20 answer the first question, the first part of the question. So I would ask

21 that it be split into two, the witness answer the first part and then

22 comment on the second part.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, yes, could you please do so because I

24 noticed before that sometimes you put five questions in one and that

25 might confuse the witness.

Page 11061

1 So, please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Mole, could you tell us, in the period from the -- from when

4 the ceasefire agreement was signed in November, as you told us, in 1992 -

5 I believe that was the 11th of November - according to what you can

6 recall, who -- which side violated, broke, the agreement, the ceasefire?

7 A. I think you misunderstand the circumstances that the ceasefire was

8 signed within. I have, I think, clearly indicated that all that occurred

9 after the ceasefire being signed was a reduction in the level of violence,

10 which lasted a week. So, therefore, to ask me which side violated the

11 ceasefire is not a question which can be answered because there was no

12 effective ceasefire.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mole.

14 According to what you can recall, can you tell us whether in

15 November 1992 there was a plan on the side of the BH army offensive

16 operation called "Koverat" or "envelope"?

17 A. I recall that.

18 Q. Could you explain to us in which areas of the city were operations

19 taken, or rather, where offensive operations taken by the BH army in

20 November 1992?

21 A. May I clarify the role of the Senior Military Observer in Sarajevo

22 in answer to your question?

23 Q. Mr. Mole, I just wanted you to answer about what you knew in

24 relation to the operation Koverat, their extent and whether you have any

25 knowledge, any information. If you don't, you can just say so.

Page 11062

1 A. I don't.

2 Q. Did you in the course of your stay, your mandate, in Sarajevo from

3 your military observers who covered the observation posts of Lima and

4 Papa, did you receive any information about offensive operations of the BH

5 army in the period of 1992?

6 A. Any information of a military nature that we received from either

7 side was very carefully controlled, obviously, by each side. So the only

8 information which we were able to receive and assess was that given to us

9 from the other side and their perceptions of military threat.

10 That is, therefore, not a good basis upon which to take action or

11 for me to answer your question definitively.

12 Q. Mr. Mole, did you, from your military observers who were at their

13 posts in the month of November, did you receive information that the

14 forces, as it was usually reported in monthly reports, that the forces of

15 the Presidency were launching attacks in the area of Zuc in November?

16 Could you confirm that such reports were received and whether they were

17 correct? Did you check them?

18 A. Yes, I did receive such reports and, yes, they were correct and,

19 yes, I visited Zuc.

20 Q. Mr. Mole, when you say that you visited Zuc, could you tell us

21 which observation post was located in the area of Zuc and what was the

22 concentration of weapons and troops of the BH army in that area?

23 A. We had no observation point at Zuc. That was the reason I visited

24 Zuc. I was hosted by the Serb side. And the disposition of the

25 Presidency forces was difficult to assess.

Page 11063

1 Q. Could you tell us when or whether there was ever an observation

2 post located in the area of Zuc, a Papa point?

3 A. Where I visited in Zuc there was no Papa location that looked

4 over the whole area, for it was a very large, mountainous region.

5 Q. Mr. Mole, could you tell us whether in the period while you were

6 the commander in Sarajevo, whether in the area of Zuc there were battles

7 fought between the two armies?

8 A. Yes, I can confirm that. And might I remind you that the map

9 which we saw earlier in my evidence, if I remember correctly, had a dotted

10 line in the area of Zuc and that, in military map marking circles, is

11 accepted as an area where the front line is constantly changing, which

12 confirms my answer to your question.

13 Q. Since you confirm that there were battles fought, could you

14 perhaps specify at what time in December, when were these battles fought,

15 and could you describe perhaps the intensity of the battles?

16 A. Can I remind you that we had no constant observation point

17 overlooking Zuc. We were aware that it was a significant area for

18 conflict, but because we were unable to monitor it and view it ourselves,

19 it was very difficult for us to quantify the actions in that area. So I

20 cannot give any further detail other than I have given.

21 Q. Since you say that you cannot give any further detail, could you

22 perhaps answer whether the consequences of the battles that were fought

23 in that period in the area of Zuc, and bearing in mind the monthly reports

24 the Defence has that was in December, the consequences of these battles,

25 could they be felt in the populated area, were in the populated area of

Page 11064

1 that location?

2 A. My recollection of the area in question is that it was lightly

3 populated. Are you referring to those lightly populated areas on Zuc?

4 Q. I was thinking in general terms of the populated areas in the

5 vicinity of the confrontation line.

6 A. Of course. Where the area was populated, there would have been

7 significant effect of the events that you are discussing, yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us, what was the closest observation post from the

9 Papa positions that could have observed the area of Zuc in the month of

10 December? Was that the observation post next to the PTT building, Papa 5,

11 or another observation post?

12 A. You are right in that Papa 5 was the nearest to Zuc, but it

13 overlooked the city and was only partway up the high ground and,

14 therefore, had no vision towards or over Zuc.

15 Q. So you are confirming to us that from the location of Papa 5, it

16 was not possible to follow any activities in the area of Zuc?

17 A. Correct, except for obviously hearing any rounds that were being

18 fired or were landing. But that is not an accurate observation of events.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I see that we are both looking at the

20 clock at the same time. We will adjourn until 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would first like to inform the

24 parties that they can expect a written decision either today or tomorrow

25 in respect of the expert witnesses, Philips and Tabeau, and the decision

Page 11065

1 will be that Mr. Philips and Mr. Tabeau can be examined and cross-examined

2 as expert witnesses. So the objection from the Defence is denied in that

3 respect.

4 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two matters very quickly, and I think

6 that both can be dealt with in the presence of the witness. Yesterday, I

7 indicated that I would be tendering some documents in relation to this

8 witness where I would be relying on the contents of the documents, whether

9 portions have specifically been brought to the attention of the witness or

10 not. For the assistance of my friends during cross-examination, I should

11 specify that, in that regard, I propose to tender in their entirety the

12 three monthly reports, that is, October, November, December.

13 Secondly, Mr. President, at some stage might I respectfully

14 suggest that we allow a little time to discuss a broader timetable issue,

15 specifically, the post end-of-Prosecution timetable, the amount of time

16 for submissions and the pre-Defence trial conference. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will certainly find time to discuss this on

18 a rather short notice.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. As

21 regards two expert witnesses that you have mentioned, the Defence will

22 examine, if necessary, these witnesses under the same caveat, the save

23 reservations, because we have already indicated that we intend to appeal

24 the decision.

25 As for the matters brought up by Mr. Ierace, I understood that one

Page 11066












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Page 11067

1 of the reports was withdrawn yesterday and that it was not even submitted

2 to the witness. I don't know whether we are talking about the same report

3 or not, but at any rate, I think that that one has been withdrawn.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... where we have to

5 decide upon it and then Mr. Ierace can explain. It is not always

6 necessarily done in the presence of the witness.

7 Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Mole, before the break we discussed Papa 5 observation post.

10 Can you confirm for us that it was located in the vicinity of the PTT

11 building, where the UN military observers were accommodated?

12 A. Yes. It was the one observation point nearest to the PTT

13 building.

14 Q. During your tenure, from your observation post, Papa 5, that is,

15 did you receive reports on the activity of the mortar belonging to the

16 Presidency which was located in the vicinity of the PTT building?

17 A. I don't recall a permanent location of a mortar near the PTT

18 building because we would not have permitted that, in that it would

19 naturally draw fire to the PTT building. But I was aware of the mobility

20 of the Presidency side using mortars from the backs of vehicles.

21 Q. What was the calibre of these movable mortars? Did you have any

22 such information?

23 A. No, we had no information regarding that because you will recall

24 that one of the functions of the UN military observers was to invoke the

25 Airport Agreement, which included weapon collection areas, but we were

Page 11068

1 quite aware that there were weapons on both sides which had not been

2 collected and were, therefore, not monitored.

3 Q. Are you telling us, Mr. Mole, that there were weapons on both

4 sides which you and your staff were unable to control?

5 A. May I clarify? We would never be able to control weapons. The

6 term I have used is "monitor." With that regard, yes, there were weapons

7 on both sides but we were unable to monitor.

8 Q. During your tour of duty, Mr. Mole, were there any other

9 locations in the area of Papa observation posts from where you received

10 reports on the activity of mortars, mobile mortars?

11 A. Yes, there were. I recall particularly a series of incidents

12 which involved such weapons around the area of the Kosevo hospital in

13 Sarajevo.

14 Q. When we spoke about the activity of BH army mobile mortars in the

15 area of the PTT building and the Kosevo hospital, can you tell us, to the

16 best of your recollection, how frequent such incidents were? During your

17 tenure, of course.

18 A. Yes. I can say that it was a frequent occurrence. It was

19 extremely hard to monitor, but in an attempt to do so, I introduced mobile

20 patrolling, especially on the Papa side, in an attempt to suppress or at

21 least monitor the events we are discussing.

22 Q. You said that you tasked your observers with establishing the

23 location of the incident involving mobile mortars. Did you receive any

24 information as to the area where these mobile mortars were active? I am

25 referring to the area covered by Papa observation post.

Page 11069

1 A. Yes. We were, however, in the unfortunate position of being

2 reactive to these incidents and were clearly not able to pre-empt them

3 because we were not in a position to have prior information of their use

4 in this fashion.

5 Q. Mr. Mole, during your tenure in Sector Sarajevo, was Mr.

6 Bezrouchenko Chief of UNPROFOR, Chief of Staff in this area? Do you know

7 that person?

8 A. I recall the name but since you mentioned Chief of Staff in

9 UNPROFOR sector headquarters, I dealt directly with a Colonel Davout of

10 the French military.

11 Q. During your mandate, did you at any point in time receive

12 information to the effect that there was an ammunition factory in the

13 basement of the PTT building, which ammunition was intended for the BH

14 army?

15 A. I heard that that was the case, but it was unfounded information

16 in that, being the Senior Military Observer, I had to be sure in my mind

17 that the PTT building was not being used for such inappropriate activity.

18 I confirmed that that had not been the case. There was an engineering

19 workshop but it was not producing any munitions, not during my tour.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mole. You were, as a commander, chief of UNMOs in

21 the area. One of your tasks was to repair the infrastructure; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Can you tell us how frequent such missions were during your tenure

25 and what exactly was the cause of damage to the infrastructure? I am

Page 11070

1 referring, obviously, to the area of the conflict.

2 A. My predecessor did not involve himself on what may I call,

3 "utility missions." It was me that invoked them. We would plan one or

4 two a week. I created a team specifically to fulfill this role and

5 preceded every operation with an intense amount of preparation: informing

6 both sides of the intentions of the teams, assembling the workers

7 necessary and providing them the protection they required.

8 In answer to your question of the damage of the infrastructure,

9 it was extremely significant and our intentions were to restore some

10 power and some water to those sections of the city that the utility

11 missions addressed.

12 Q. Is it true, Mr. Mole, that the -- this damage to the

13 infrastructure as far as the power and water are concerned was caused in

14 the area of the conflict?

15 A. Yes, you are right. Much of the damage was effected on the front

16 lines, which made the nature of the missions extremely dangerous, and

17 hence my reference to the detail planning.

18 Q. Mr. Mole, in your statement, the one that you gave in 1997, when

19 asked questions about the role and the purpose of your mission, you stated

20 - I paraphrase - that over 50 per cent -- in over 50 per cent of the

21 cases, fire was opened from both sides. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. It was expected that most utility missions would be

23 subjected to fire from one side or the other.

24 Q. As far as the consequences of this damage are concerned, what was

25 their effect on various neighbourhoods in the town of Sarajevo in terms of

Page 11071

1 shortages of electricity and water, and in what period of time was this

2 emphasised?

3 A. Throughout my tenure in Sarajevo, the loss of running clean water

4 was probably the most significant of the shortages. Electricity was

5 seldom available, and if it was available, it would be for a very short

6 period.

7 Q. Speaking of the observation posts, Papa and Lima observation

8 posts, in the area of Nedzarici, was there any such observation post?

9 A. I inherited an observation post in Nedzarici which had been set

10 up by my predecessor very shortly before I arrived in Sarajevo.

11 Q. Is it true that that particular observation post was located at

12 the front line and that it was the Serbs who had requested the setting up

13 of this observation post in the area of Nedzarici?

14 A. Correct. Nedzarici was an enclave into the city, an extremely

15 difficult area for the commander, and we well understood his desire to

16 have an UN presence with him. However, as its intention was to observe

17 the city, this could not be achieved from the selected location. So with

18 limited manpower, I redeployed the individuals elsewhere.

19 Q. Mr. Mole, it is true, is it not, that the area in question,

20 Nedzarici, was one of the most sensitive locations in the town and that

21 the Presidency forces exerted constant -- strong and constant pressure

22 over this area in terms of military attacks?

23 A. Yes, I completely agree.

24 Q. When you spoke about the commander, did you also speak about the

25 commander of the military formation which belonged to the Sarajevo

Page 11072

1 Romanija Corps which was deployed in the area, the commander that had

2 requested the presence of the UN as a form of protection?

3 A. Firstly, I assume you mean the local commander in Nedzarici, and

4 if that is what you are saying, I understand he requested the presence of

5 the UN, but remember that was before I arrived in Sarajevo. But I did

6 discuss with him the usefulness of the UN observation post in his

7 location.

8 Q. Is it true that you withdrew this observation post?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Since you spent some time in the area of Nedzarici and in view of

11 the fact that this was a very sensitive portion of the front line, can you

12 tell us how far the two front lines were apart in this area? How far

13 apart were the two sides in this area?

14 A. Literally, a few metres in some places, a hundred metres in

15 another. Very close.

16 Q. Could you confirm for us that this was an area which was

17 constantly under heavy fighting, was exposed to heavy fighting, daily

18 heavy fighting?

19 A. Absolutely, yes.

20 Q. Mr. Mole, according to what you can recollect, could you please

21 tell us where were the positions of the BH army in the area of Nedzarici?

22 A. If you recall, I had marked the front line on the map which has

23 already been submitted.

24 Q. Yes, Mr. Mole. I have before me this map, but my question was

25 whether you could tell us where the BH army was located or, rather,

Page 11073

1 accommodated in the area of the front line near Nedzarici or, rather, the

2 disposition of the forces, where were they, in which buildings there; how

3 many were there? If you could perhaps tell us a little more about that

4 area.

5 A. As to the specific buildings that were occupied by the Presidency

6 side, I would only refer to the map and indicate that the line was the

7 confrontation line and the Presidency and Serb side were occupying

8 buildings very close on either side of that confrontation line. I can't

9 tell you specific buildings.

10 The disposition of forces was, from a military viewpoint,

11 interesting in that there were more infantry on both sides than you would

12 expect elsewhere around the perimeter of the city because, clearly, heavy

13 weapons were not useful in that urban environment.

14 Q. Mr. Mole, could you tell us, considering that you were in that

15 area, what was -- what were the weapons of the BH army? How were they

16 armed? And what were they wearing? What were the members of the BH army

17 wearing in that area?

18 A. If I may start with the weapons. The majority of weapons used

19 were small arms, mortars. And the Presidency side also had available

20 anti-aircraft weapons which they used in the direct fire mode. They also

21 had available to them three T-54 tanks, but they were generally located

22 elsewhere in the city. But they were deployed to Nedzarici on a number of

23 occasions.

24 As to clothing, there was a mixture of what I would call

25 "vestiges" of uniform. Many were wearing what I would term as civilian

Page 11074

1 clothes because military uniform was not available to them since they had

2 not been serving in the military when the conflict began.

3 Q. Mr. Mole, when you told us that the observation post was removed,

4 was withdrawn, from the area of the Nedzarici, are you saying to us that

5 after withdrawing this observation post, you, as UNMOs, no longer received

6 information about the consequences of operations and activity of the

7 Presidency forces and the BH army in this area? When I say you no longer

8 received reports, you were not informed about the consequences of these

9 operations, of their actions?

10 A. That is not quite true because you will recall that I had

11 requested the use of mobile patrols which were able to enter the area from

12 within the city on the Presidency side. The area of Nedzarici was

13 extremely close to the road leading to the airport, and I used this road

14 frequently, as did my UNMOs. And I fully appreciated the sensitivity of

15 this area when talking to General Galic and would listen attentively to

16 any observations that he had over pressures in this area.

17 Q. Mr. Mole, could you confirm to us that in the area where you

18 marked the confrontation line, when we are speaking of Nedzarici, this

19 area has above it -- is dominated by buildings of the Presidency forces,

20 that is buildings in Alipasino Polje and in Vojnicko Polje, and between

21 them is also the Mojmilo hill which was under the control of the BH army?

22 A. Yes, I recall that.

23 Q. During your tenure, did you receive reports that from the area of

24 Mojmilo hill there were snipers active, BH army snipers?

25 A. Yes, I recall that that was the case.

Page 11075

1 Q. Speaking of the area of Nedzarici and the front line, could you

2 tell us which army formation was located in the area of Mojmilo, Alipasino

3 Polje and Vojnicko Polje on the side of the Presidency forces?

4 A. No, I cannot tell you the name of the units deployed in that

5 location.

6 Q. Did you know the positions of the command posts of the unit that

7 was active in that area?

8 A. No, I don't recall that.

9 Q. Could you confirm to us that in that area, and I am specifically

10 talking about the road that you used, were there police checkpoints there?

11 Was there police there?

12 A. The checkpoint which had direct effect upon the UN was that

13 checkpoint operated by the Serbs. There was, of course, a front line

14 manned by the Presidency side, but their checkpoint was not as active as

15 that operated by the Serb side. If you are referring to police

16 checkpoints, I would suggest to you that they were military checkpoints

17 operated by the Serb side.

18 Q. Mr. Mole, during your tenure in the Sarajevo area, and we are

19 specifically speaking about this area, were there police forces on both

20 sides on the positions? Did you see them there? Could you perhaps

21 confirm this to us?

22 A. I regarded the front lines of both sides as the confrontation

23 line, and those manning the confrontation line on both sides were

24 military.

25 Q. Mr. Mole, could you tell us, what was the depth of the front in

Page 11076












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Page 11077

1 the populated areas, residential areas? Could you perhaps tell us about

2 the dispositions of the troops in a populated area of a unit, of a

3 battalion or a brigade?

4 A. I had the advantage of seeing operational maps belonging to both

5 sides, and in accordance with all military procedure, each side would mark

6 areas of control allocated to individual units. The majority of the maps

7 I saw indicated units of the size of regiment in the British Army, but

8 within this context, they would be brigades. Consequently, one would

9 expect to see, behind the front line, areas of logistic support and

10 command and control. The depth of those activities on the Bosnian side

11 would be variable according to the location of the front line. But to use

12 Nedzarici as an example, the depth would be about 500 to 600 yards. One

13 would expect logistic elements to the rear of that and command and control

14 to the rear of that.

15 Q. Mr. Mole, would you agree with me, bearing in mind what you said,

16 that the firing positions and disposition of the brigades, the command

17 posts, the logistical support and other military resources, and here we

18 are talking also about the storage ammunition warehouses, these represent

19 legitimate military targets as such?

20 A. Yes, I see those as legitimate military targets, but I would add

21 the caveat that little ammunition would be stored anywhere close to the

22 front line.

23 Q. Mr. Mole, during your tenure in Sarajevo, could you tell us what

24 was the first -- what was the strength of the 1st Corps of the --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the second part

Page 11078

1 of the question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the second part of the --

3 yes, it will. It was a request from the interpretation.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. How many brigades were included in the 1st Corps of the BH army

6 in Sarajevo in the time -- at the time when you were there, when you were

7 the commander there?

8 A. I can't remember the exact number, but considering the size of the

9 front line and remembering the operational maps that I had the opportunity

10 of viewing, there were a considerable number because there required to be

11 to provide the defence the Presidency side required.

12 Q. Mr. Mole, since you agreed with me that the positions of the

13 brigades, the firing positions, command post, logistical support and other

14 military resources, are legitimate military targets, you agreed with me

15 that, as part of the 1st Corps, there were many troops.

16 Could you tell us how many brigades were there and where were they

17 deployed?

18 A. I think I have answered that question.

19 Q. So you cannot give us a precise number. If I tell you that there

20 are documents and reports of the UN saying that there were 12 to 14

21 brigades as part of the 1st Corps --

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: My learned colleague has asked the question twice,

25 has got the same answer, that the witness does not remember. And then

Page 11079

1 informing the witness what other documents might say is inappropriate and

2 deserving of such little weight as to be inadmissible. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole, when you earlier answered that question,

4 would that mean that any further specification is beyond your knowledge

5 or... ?

6 A. Not beyond my knowledge, but I have forgotten how many units were

7 deployed in the 1st Corps in Sarajevo.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So it is not in your memory any more?

9 THE WITNESS: Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, if it is a matter of memory, I would allow

11 Ms. Pilipovic to refresh the memory of the witness. And at the same time,

12 add to that, Ms. Pilipovic, that the Chamber expects the Defence to finish

13 the cross-examination shortly after the next break. And since I do know

14 that you have split up the cross-examination, I do not know what will be

15 your part or what will be the part of Mr. Piletta-Zanin but I thought it

16 the right time to remind you that it would be somewhere at 1.00, 5 to 10

17 minutes past 1.00, that the Defence is expected to conclude its

18 cross-examination.

19 If you want further details, after looking into more details, the

20 Prosecution took approximately two hours and three-quarters of an hour,

21 after we deducted time which was not really available to put questions to

22 the witness. I did a similar thing to the Defence, and that would mean

23 that at the end of the next break, you would have used two hours and

24 three-quarters of an hour and that would be the same. So I would grant

25 you an additional 50 minutes because you do not know what kind of

Page 11080

1 interventions, such as the one presently created by the Chamber, would

2 cause as further delay.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we had the

4 information that the examination-in-chief lasted for four hours, but in

5 order not to waste time, we will check that during the break.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I said that in general terms. And then,

7 later on, I said that I would be a bit more precise in deducting whatever

8 should be deducted and that finally comes to a bit less than three hours.

9 And I would grant you a bit over three hours.

10 Please proceed.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Mole, if I may refresh your memory, and if I tell you that

13 there are reports of the United Nations Military Observers, this is a

14 document that is described as a description of the warring factions, this

15 is Exhibit 136P, that the 1st Corps of the BH army had 10 brigades, they

16 had one rear military police, that there was also -- HVO was also part of

17 the 1st Corps and also that within the 1st Corps there were also special

18 forces that were active, that were deployed, that I mean the Ministry of

19 the Interior Special Forces.

20 Is this information acceptable to you, this data?

21 A. Yes, that makes sense.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.


24 MR. IERACE: The question again has many component parts.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please split it up, unless -- well,

Page 11081

1 the answer is: "That makes sense," which is not quite a clear answer. In

2 general, would you--

3 THE WITNESS: I agree with what was presented then, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Everything?


6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mole.

9 During your tenure, were you in a situation to grasp in entirety

10 the disposition or, rather, did you know about the weapons and the

11 armaments that had at their disposal, the 1st Corps of the BH army?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. On the basis of your memory, of your recollection, could you tell

14 us what heavy weapons did the 1st Corps of the BH army have?

15 A. The availability of heavy weapons was very limited, in that the

16 few weapons that we monitored represented the majority of the heavy

17 weapons available to the Presidency side. So the majority of weapons

18 elsewhere were infantry and weapons up to a calibre which would be used

19 within a regular infantry regiment. But I have already indicated that

20 there were the three tanks, anti-aircraft weapons, and mortars which we

21 did not have at weapon collection points.

22 Q. Mr. Mole, on the basis of your recollection, and you said that it

23 was an acceptable information regarding the number of the brigades inside

24 the part of the Sarajevo which is under the control of the 1st Corps,

25 could you tell us what strategically important positions had those

Page 11082

1 brigades under their control, in your opinion? Or rather, to be more

2 specific, do you know disposition of the brigades of the 1st Corps at the

3 time when you were in Sarajevo?

4 A. We knew at that time which brigades had which areas of

5 responsibility of the front line, yes.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that the area of Dobrinja was under the

7 control of the 5th Motorised Brigade?

8 A. I don't recall it as the 5th Motorised Brigade specifically.

9 Q. On the basis of your recollection, could you confirm that in the

10 area of Dobrinja there was such a unit as a brigade?

11 A. Are you talking on the Presidency side?

12 Q. Yes, Mr. Mole. So in the area of Dobrinja which was under the

13 control of the Presidency forces.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you confirm that the area of Zuc was under the control of the

16 1st Motorised Brigade?

17 A. Again, I can't recall the name or number of the unit. But if you

18 are suggesting that part of Zuc was controlled by Presidency forces, the

19 answer would be "yes."

20 Q. Mr. Mole, according to you, the areas of the Mojmilo hill and Zuc,

21 were they important strategic points? And what was the visibility from

22 these positions? How visible was the town area from these two location?

23 A. Mojmilo hill gave tactical advantage overlooking the front line.

24 Zuc gave to those that possessed it control of high ground overlooking the

25 whole city.

Page 11083

1 Q. Can you confirm, Mr. Mole, that the area of Mount Igman was also

2 under the BH army control?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigators of the Office

5 of the Prosecutor, you spoke about an observation post which was set up in

6 the area in the south-eastern part of Sarajevo. Let me remind you, at

7 that time it was Mr. Harding who was the Senior Military Observer, and who

8 also testified before this Tribunal. Is that correct?

9 A. Would you be in a position to give me a number for that

10 observation post or are you talking of one which we were attempting to set

11 up in the south-eastern part of Sarajevo?

12 Q. I am talking about the observation post, yes, that you were

13 attempting to set up.

14 A. Yes, I recall that.

15 Q. Is it true that you were unable to set it up because you had

16 problems with local commanders in the area of Stari Grad, the Old Town,

17 that is the south-eastern part of Sarajevo?

18 A. The area where we were attempting to place an observation post

19 was relatively unpopulated, for it was up the hill and away from the city

20 itself. But it fell in the area of responsibility of a brigade in that

21 region, and that brigade felt under significant pressure from the Serb

22 side and were not keen on an observation post being placed there.

23 We never have trouble with the commanders because we don't command

24 them.

25 Q. Mr. Mole, did you have any problems with local commanders, that

Page 11084

1 is, the commanders who were not active as part of the BH army but were

2 still operating in the area?

3 A. All the people that I dealt with on this particular incident were

4 part of the Presidency forces, as far as I could tell.

5 Q. During your tenure, did you ever receive any information regarding

6 the activity of the paramilitary forces in the town of Sarajevo?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Let me refresh your memory, Mr. Mole. In your statement, the one

9 that you gave in April on page 0098 -- I am sorry, we didn't get the

10 number of the page. You spoke about Mr. Juka as a criminal.

11 A. Then we must identify what we mean by "paramilitary forces."

12 Q. Are you telling us that there was a unit whose commander was Juka,

13 who was a criminal?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he work within the framework of the BH army or on his own?

16 A. I was aware that there was considerable conflict between some

17 elements, of which this is one, of the Presidency forces. His exact

18 relationship with the Presidency forces is difficult for an outsider to

19 analyse, but that the Presidency forces had concerns about his activities,

20 I would suggest that is very true.

21 Q. Were you aware of the fact that in this area, the area which was

22 monitored by the Papa OP observers, that there were other such units that

23 were acting on their own?

24 A. The degree of their military activity independent of Presidency

25 forces would be extremely difficult to analyse. But I am aware that the

Page 11085

1 command and control of the Presidency side was weak as regards some of its

2 subunits.

3 Q. Can you confirm that in the area of Sarajevo where you attempted

4 to set up an observation post, a brigade was active: The 10th Mountain

5 Brigade was active in that area, the one that was under the command of

6 Caco? Did you have any such information?

7 A. Not information specific to the name of the brigade nor the

8 commander.

9 Q. When we spoke about the military formation commanded by Juka, you

10 said that you had information that there were other such units as well.

11 Were you aware of their deployment? Did you know where their

12 command posts were located?

13 A. We didn't know the location of all command posts for all the

14 military formations within Sarajevo. And a more detailed knowledge was

15 available to me from my subcommander, Flight Lieutenant Harding.

16 Q. When you say, "a more detailed knowledge," what exactly do you

17 mean? What kind of more detailed knowledge did you get from subcommander

18 Harding regarding the disposition of these military forces, these military

19 units?

20 A. Areas of control, disposition, weapons, commanders, he would have

21 more information than me, but it was available to me, should I ask it.

22 Q. Mr. Mole, during your tenure, were you aware of the fact that

23 there was a sniper unit within the BH Army Corps there referred to as

24 Seve?

25 A. Again, its name does not remind me of a particular unit, but that

Page 11086












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Page 11087

1 there were snipers on all sides, that was true.

2 Q. Did you ever get any information from your observers regarding

3 the firing positions of the snipers who were active as part of the BH Army

4 1st Corps?

5 A. We had presented to us complaints from both sides relating to

6 sniping, but without sounding trite, I would indicate to you that we

7 prioritised what work we did, and although sniping was an unpleasant

8 experience, we were much more concerned with the use of heavy weapons and

9 the suppression of the use of those weapons. We tended to regard sniping

10 as a hazard of the job.

11 Q. Mr. Mole, can you explain to us your view of the sniper activity?

12 You say that it was a hazard of the job. What exactly do you mean?

13 A. Sniping was an experience which one dealt with every day in

14 virtually all locations within the city. Obviously, the use of high

15 ground and locations which give good field of view would be used for

16 sniping on both sides. But I say again its priority to us in an area

17 where there was no ceasefire and was constantly under fire from indirect

18 fire weapons, sniping was, in priority terms, quite low.

19 Q. Mr. Mole, you said that one way of reporting was through the use

20 of patrols. Did they provide you with information on sniping incidents as

21 well?

22 A. Yes, if they could.

23 Q. Did you verify such information that you received?

24 A. I refer you back to my answer I have just given, that we were

25 limited in time and resources and we tended to concentrate on the use of

Page 11088

1 heavy weapons. But we did apply ourselves to incidents of sniping on

2 both sides, should we have the resources to do so. But you will

3 appreciate that it is extremely difficult to assess the intended

4 objective of a round that is fired into or out of a front line and then

5 declare that it was sniping. Much of the small arms fire that was

6 experienced in Sarajevo was loosely termed as "sniping," but I challenge

7 anybody to be sure that rounds coming at you are as a result of sniping as

8 opposed to the normal conflict. It's a very fine line.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mole. You confirmed the existence of a number of

10 brigades which were part of the 1st BH Army Corps. Can you now tell us

11 how many troops the BH Army Corps consisted of?

12 A. No, I can't remember with any accuracy.

13 Q. I should like to go back to your interpretation of sniping

14 incidents. Upon receiving an incident report, would you then draft an

15 incident of your own -- I am sorry -- would you then draft a report on

16 your own, once you have received reports from the field, from the ground?

17 A. I think you make the assumption that the general level of activity

18 within the city was peaceful and, therefore, any rounds of any calibre

19 being fired anywhere would result in some investigation by either UN

20 military observers or by UNPROFOR police. Nothing could be further from

21 the truth. To understand that, you have to comprehend that -- excuse me.

22 You have to comprehend that -- excuse me.

23 The activity level was intense and only varied in level. It never

24 ceased to the situation where we could respond to every incident, as you

25 are suggesting.

Page 11089

1 Q. Thank you, Mr Mole. During your mandate, did you make any

2 attempts to establish the number of legitimate military targets in the

3 town of Sarajevo which was under the BH army control?

4 A. It was no more my job to do that than it was to do the same on

5 the Serb side. I have already identified what my raison d'etre was within

6 the city, and it did not include what you would term as "military

7 information."

8 Q. When you say that it was not, strictly speaking, within your

9 competence, does that mean that you did not have accurate information on

10 the number of legitimate military targets in that part of the city and

11 their location?

12 A. I didn't say it was outside my competence. I am drawing a

13 distinct line between what is intelligence, and that is definitely

14 something that the UN was not there to collect, as opposed to other

15 information which, by I having it, permitted us to achieve our objectives

16 which I have already identified.

17 Q. Mr. Mole, during the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague

18 yesterday, you were shown Exhibit 618, your monthly report for the month

19 of December, the one that you did not sign because you didn't stay until

20 the end of the month. In this report you speak about the shelling, that

21 is, you confirm what was established in the monthly report. Specifically,

22 I am referring to the 7th and the 8th of December, also the 9th and 10th

23 of December, the 11th and the 12th. You say that the shells were falling

24 all over the city, and you confirmed that information as being accurate.

25 Is it so?

Page 11090

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Mole, can you now confirm that that period of time coincided

3 with the fighting for Otes?

4 A. It did.

5 Q. The beginning of the month of December, did it also see the

6 fighting for the Mount Zuc?

7 A. There was fighting there, yes.

8 Q. Did you have any information about the area of Trebevic and Hresa,

9 was there any fighting going on there?

10 A. The main area or concentration of fire was definitely within the

11 Otes area but I would not dismiss fighting elsewhere on the perimeter of

12 the city, as indeed I have agreed there was fighting in Zuc area.

13 Q. Mr. Mole, in your statement on page 00908156, you declared that

14 there was a policy which was intended to prevent the enemy from taking up

15 more territory, the policy which was being implemented by the Sarajevo

16 Romanija Corps.

17 Can you explain to us what exactly is it that you meant by this

18 phrase?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: I appreciate my learned colleague giving page

21 numbers. Unfortunately, they are of the B/C/S version. Perhaps she might

22 indicate firstly which statement and whether it is approximately halfway

23 through the statement or a quarter of the way through. I would be

24 grateful for that.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the statement of the 1st,

Page 11091

1 the 2nd and the 3rd of September, 1997. The page is in B/C/S, but perhaps

2 we can have the break now and that will allow me to locate the portion of

3 the text in the English original and, hence, be more precise.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That would, at least, be avoiding time spent on

5 locating. Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you seem not to agree that --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I fully agree with that,

7 however, I do not agree with your calculation on the hours spent in

8 examination. I think we are closer to four hours than three hours. I

9 don't know whether you have taken into account two previous days in

10 respect of which the total would be two and-a-half hours. I am talking

11 about the days of the 3rd and the 7th of June.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I would not forget Mr. Mole being

13 here on the 3rd and the 7th of June. Could you please indicate to me how

14 many minutes you locate on each of these days? The 3rd of June?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As regards to the 3rd of

16 June, I think it was from 1420 until 1530. For the 7th of June, from

17 9.00 until 11.30. We have deducted the necessary breaks each time. That

18 is according to my calculations. As of today, I also made some

19 calculations compared to yesterday. There were 42 pages of intervention

20 by Mr. Ierace, which brings us to another two hours if we calculate two

21 minutes per page. It means that we have 84 minutes left and that brings

22 us to four and-a-half hours.

23 The pages in questions are 2.069 --

24 JUDGE ORIE: You switched yesterday from today. Yesterday, how

25 many minutes did you calculate of the 2nd of July?

Page 11092

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I took into account yesterday.

2 Yesterday, I calculated 42 pages. If we calculate three minutes -- I

3 don't have the time indicator on my screen any more. That would be two

4 hours. If we calculate then two minutes per page, then it would be the

5 total of one and-a-half hours. I am talking about 2.068 --

6 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, the interpreters cannot follow the

7 numbers at this speed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It is clear to me you are referring to page numbers.

9 And today you are --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Nothing. Mr. Ierace did not

11 take the flow. I am not going to charge him with anything that happened

12 today.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what time did you deduct on the 3rd of June

14 for interventions?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You mean the breaks or the

16 interventions?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Interventions which prevented the other party --

18 longer interventions which prevented the other party from asking questions

19 and getting answers to those questions.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] None, strictly speaking.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I will go through my calculations again during the

22 break. I think that I would finally not agree with your calculations, but

23 please keep in mind that there is not much time left, and I will go over

24 the calculations again.

25 We will adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00.

Page 11093

1 --- Recess taken at 12.34 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Ms. Pilipovic, I should indicate

5 to the parties that my refreshment course in mathematics showed that - I

6 improved during the break - you have -- if you could finish today, it

7 would be fine, but you would be entitled to a couple of minutes more

8 tomorrow morning. But as I indicated before, it is not always necessary

9 to use all the time, but you would have approximately, let's say, a little

10 bit over one hour left. So I apologise for informing you wrongly before.

11 Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. For my

13 learned colleague, before the break, I asked Mr. Mole to comment on his

14 statement from the 1st of September, and the page was 00520512. That was

15 the first paragraph, last line.

16 Q. Mr. Mole, you used a sentence saying that there was a policy of

17 containment and that it was implemented by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

18 Could you please explain this? What did you mean by that?

19 A. I see it as a military expression, in that I perceived that there

20 was neither the will nor the intention for the Serbs to alter the

21 position of the front lines significantly because to do so would

22 jeopardise their military position, whereas to do nothing and retain the

23 status quo achieved their objective sufficiently. Hence I use the term

24 "policy of containment" to explain that.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mole. When you said that in December there were

Page 11094

1 battles fought for Mount Zuc, could you tell us from which parts of town

2 of the city there was -- there were troops maneuvering in the direction

3 of Mount Zuc?

4 A. Do you refer to the requirement for reinforcement on Zuc from the

5 Presidency side?

6 Q. Yes, Mr. Mole.

7 A. Yes, that obviously occurred.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that this reinforcement in the direction

9 of Mount Zuc, and bearing in mind the disposition of the brigades of the

10 1st Corps of the BH army could have been from the directions of

11 Buljakov Potok, Buca Potok, that is, from the populated areas of the city?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Mole, in your statement you spoke of the interest of the

14 Presidency to restrict people or citizens, population, entering and

15 leaving the city. Is that correct?

16 A. It wasn't always within the gift of the Presidency to make those

17 decisions because it required both sides to agree for movements in and out

18 of the city. But I believe that the Presidency tended towards retention

19 of their population within the confines of the city.

20 Q. Could you please clarify what were the reasons for this, as you

21 say it, that the Presidency had this interest to keep the population

22 inside the confines of the city?

23 A. Any leeching of the population would weaken the numbers available

24 to the Presidency as fighting individuals, and when it related to

25 noncombatants, there was, I believe, a tendency to require them to stay

Page 11095

1 within the city because the status quo, which I have already explained to

2 you, suited the Presidency's position apropos the strategic relevance of

3 Sarajevo within the context of all solutions within Bosnia. The

4 Presidency benefited from the city being deemed to be under siege for

5 sympathy from outside Bosnia.

6 Q. Mr. Mole, in the course of the examination-in-chief yesterday,

7 when asked by my learned colleague a question regarding the obtaining of a

8 rank of General Galic, that is, his promotion, I will paraphrase what you

9 said. I believe that was page 45 of the transcript. According to you,

10 that he also got his promotion because of his success in his work but that

11 this didn't mean that it was necessarily linked to Sarajevo.

12 Did I interpret correctly what you said?

13 A. That would be a fair interpretation.

14 Q. Could you tell us if you know which rank should a corps commander

15 hold, according to the rules of the army of Republika Srpska or generally,

16 according to any army rules?

17 A. I don't think there is any ability for me to make a general rule

18 about such an appointment. I can only relate it to my own personal

19 experience. And a corps commander would expect to be a major-general in

20 the British Military.

21 Q. Mr. Mole, I can tell you that according to the rules of the army

22 of Republika Srpska, this rank --

23 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, there is an objection against --

25 perhaps I would first give the opportunity to Mr. Ierace. Perhaps you

Page 11096












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11097

1 would finish what your question would be because there was no question

2 yet. You were just informing us about something. And then see whether

3 the objection still stands. What would be your question?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Mole, would you agree with me that Mr. Galic, as a -- in a

6 rank of a colonel, he was appointed in a formational post, which both at

7 peace and in war would actually be holding the rank of a general?

8 JUDGE ORIE: I see no further objections, so please answer the

9 question, Mr. Mole.

10 THE WITNESS: As I said before, I don't believe that pure rank

11 necessarily indicates the size of unit that an individual commands. Each

12 circumstance is different. And the experience of the former Republic of

13 Yugoslavia, where their military was broken into many pieces, would

14 indicate that normal accepted ranks, as they relate to unit size, would

15 similarly be distorted.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Mole, could you tell us, during your mandate, did you have

18 reports that from the area of Butmir, which was under the control of the

19 BH army, there was shelling in the direction of the airport? Did you

20 have such reports?

21 A. If you are asking whether Butmir was the source of rounds landing

22 in the airport, then the answer is yes. Do I understand the question

23 correctly?

24 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Mole.

25 Yesterday, you told us that the front line in Sarajevo, according

Page 11098

1 to you, was the length of 64 kilometres. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your opinion, do you think that a corps commander could have

4 known at any point in time what was happening on such a long line of

5 front?

6 A. He might not know the detail but he would certainly be expected

7 to comprehend such issues as logistic resupply. And if I may take as an

8 example, units were using ammunition, it would be a fair question to ask

9 those unit commanders why they were using that ammunition. Whether he was

10 present or not, it is his job to know what his commanders are doing.

11 Q. Mr. Mole, in your opinion, did the Serb forces have such

12 communication equipment, communication means, that they were able to have

13 -- to be constantly aware of the situation at any location on the front

14 line?

15 A. They had such communications, although not ideal, that allowed

16 them the policy of containment which I have already outlined to you. The

17 fact that they could fulfil that role indicates that their command and

18 control was sufficient for their purpose.

19 Q. In your opinion, was this on every single point on the front

20 line? Was this so?

21 A. I have indicated that it would be difficult as relates to certain

22 locations but there was plenty of time, even during my tenure, for

23 improvements to be made to permit communications which were sufficient for

24 their purpose. If they had not achieved that level of communication, then

25 if I was the commander, I would be discussing it very carefully with my

Page 11099

1 communication commander.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my co-counsel will

3 continue the cross-examination.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

7 A. Good day.

8 Q. Sir, you were three months in Sarajevo. Would you agree with me

9 to consider that this was a period which is relatively short?

10 A. Four months.

11 Q. Same question: A relatively short period of time?

12 MR. IERACE: The question serves no purpose at all.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I beg your pardon?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There's an objection, Mr.

15 President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is that it serves no purpose at all.

17 Can you please indicate what would enlighten the Chamber whether the

18 witness considers the period of four months, which is approximately 120

19 days, to be relatively long or relatively short.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Because I

21 am going along the line of questions that I have. But I will discover

22 that -- I intend to ask the witness a long line of questions regarding the

23 locations he may have visited in Sarajevo going by location and location.

24 And that is the reason I am asking the witness whether four months have

25 seemed to him a sufficient amount of time to do a -- to make a tour of all

Page 11100

1 the locations that we are interested in in Sarajevo.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's assume that it would assist. Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Very

4 well.

5 Q. So, would you agree with me, sir, to consider that a period of

6 four months is a relatively short period of time to see everything that is

7 going on in a city like Sarajevo?

8 A. No, not particularly. The period depends upon intensity of work.

9 Q. Very well. So, sir, since you answer in the negative, and only in

10 order to gain time, I am going to ask you certain questions as a list. If

11 you know one of the names from this list of people or locations, please

12 stop me. If not, we will assume that you don't know them.

13 So the question is the following: Do you know, as an example, the

14 names, the following names: Stela, Kulin Ban, Benevolencija, Kobra,

15 Sultan Fatih. So far you have no knowledge of this?

16 A. I don't recall the names.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Ljiljana; Zulfikar; Crni Labudovi, Black

18 Swans; Akrepi, Silver Fox; Mudris; Dedo?

19 Sir, you don't know any of these locations -- any of these names,

20 do you?

21 A. I don't recall them.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 So let us continue: Silos. Still, you don't know it?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Borsalino, Tarcin, Kazani? Do you know these names?

Page 11101

1 A. No.

2 Q. Pavle Goranin; sir, do you know this name?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Gras, Petar Dakic; Do you know these names?

5 A. I knew a Dakic, but the screen hasn't come up with the spelling.

6 It has now. But whether it was the same one, I don't know.

7 Q. I think this is not a name of a person but a name of a location.

8 Did you know of a location called Petar Dakic?

9 A. No, I knew an individual called Dakic.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you.

11 Sir, all of these names, they don't ring any bells for you, do

12 they?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Very well.

15 Sir, you cannot tell us if the names of Zulfikar, Crni Labudovi,

16 Akrepi, Mudris, Dedo, would correspond to special units that were located

17 or positioned on Mount Igman?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Very well. So you don't know if on this mount, Mount Igman, there

20 was also a Mujahedin unit?

21 A. No. I knew the heavy weapons which were located on that mount

22 only.

23 Q. We will come to that later. Sir, do you recall the name of MUP?

24 Does this mean anything to you?

25 A. No.

Page 11102

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 I am going to ask you -- I will ask you some questions later in

3 relation to all of these names. We will come back to that later. But

4 before that, I would like to ask you one question: Do you know where was

5 located in relation to what is sometimes known as the Egyptian Battalion,

6 the 10th Mountain Brigade?

7 A. Are you asking what the relative positions between the Egyptian

8 Battalion and the 10th Mountain Brigade were?

9 Q. For instance, yes.

10 A. No.

11 Q. You didn't know that?

12 A. No, I am saying I don't recall it.

13 Q. But, Witness, I understand that it has been long time, but a town

14 map cannot simply evaporate from one's mind. Do you have any idea of

15 where this was, at one end of the city or the other end of the city? Or

16 were perhaps these two locations next to each other, close to each other?

17 A. Then I understand your question to be at variance to my first

18 understanding. You said what the relative positions between the Egyptian

19 Battalion and the 10th Mountain Brigade. If you are now asking me, do I

20 recall where the Egyptian Battalion was, then the answer to the question

21 is, yes.

22 Q. Very well. Do you know where the 10th Brigade was located with

23 respect to the Egyptian Battalion?

24 A. No, because I can't recall the detail from the operational map.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 11103

1 May I now ask you to go back to what I mentioned a moment ago. We

2 are speaking in broad terms. Was it located far from the Egyptian

3 Battalion, relatively close to them, near them? Can you approximate how

4 far was it?

5 A. I think I have just told you I don't know the relative positions

6 between the two.

7 Q. So can we, therefore, conclude that your memory in respect of

8 these events today needs a lot of refreshing?

9 A. If you are asking me specific questions as relate to many

10 individuals who I did meet and the relative positions of the two sides,

11 it was never the UN's purpose to plot and understand every single

12 commander. I think, sir, you have forgotten, we had 60 UN military

13 observers. That does not permit us to know every commander on every side.

14 And because I do not recall those commanders because I would only deal

15 with a number does not negate my very clear memory of the events during my

16 tenure.

17 Q. Very well. But I can then take note of the fact that your memory

18 is quite clear, but that you cannot simply remember the distance between

19 these two points. Is that correct?

20 A. Which two points?

21 Q. A and B, that is, the Egyptian Battalion and the 10th Mountain

22 Brigade.

23 A. If you take that specific example, you are correct.

24 Q. I should like to ask you a question concerning other points in

25 town, but can I expect the same kind of answer; if I ask you about the 5th

Page 11104

1 Brigade and the closest observation point, would your answer be roughly

2 the same?

3 A. I had hoped from what I have already told you that you would

4 understand that the mandate which I had did not, and I say again, did not

5 relate to military intelligence, which is the sort of question that you

6 are asking me.

7 Q. Good. Thank you very much, Witness.

8 So I conclude that, generally speaking, you did not have precise

9 information on various locations of the points that I mentioned?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Can I also conclude from your previous response, that is, can I

13 interpret it as follows: You had a relatively small number of observers

14 to monitor all this; is it correct?

15 MR. IERACE: I object, for the same reason as my earlier

16 objection, that is, inviting the witness to observe whether his numbers

17 were relatively small or otherwise is of no --

18 JUDGE ORIE: My recollection is that it was 64. Are we talking

19 about the same --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not 64. 64 is the number of

21 the kilometres of the front line. I think that the witness mentioned the

22 figure of 60 or so.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: I give the same response as we did before, that is,

25 that the Chamber is wondering whether the assessment of whether 60 is

Page 11105

1 relatively much -- or is a relatively high number or low number might not

2 that much assist. On the other hand, Mr. Ierace, objecting against it is

3 not of great assistance either, we think. So, therefore, if you want to

4 spend time to cross-examination to this, perhaps -- please proceed, Mr.

5 Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, is it correct that according to you - at least that is

8 how I understand your testimony - approximately 60 monitors was a

9 relatively small number for the task that you had been entrusted with; yes

10 or no?

11 A. Yes, it was quite a small number.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 Let me move to another issue. Following the Prosecution in their

14 phrasing of the questions, we have testimony to the effect that the

15 majority -- most of the destruction of civilian property, including

16 residence buildings, was located on or in the vicinity of the front line,

17 that is, outside of what was going on in the centre of the town?

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if that question refers to testimony

19 by other witnesses, then it is entirely inappropriate because it could not

20 be said that the Defence has any understanding that that is common ground

21 with the Prosecution.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I never said that,

23 Mr. President. If I may rephrase, I am following the Prosecution because

24 on several occasions, the Prosecution said, in order to spare time, I

25 submit to you what other testimonies are. I am doing exactly the same

Page 11106












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11107

1 thing that Mr. Ierace was.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... such

3 information. So if you would asked: "Would it be correct to say that,"

4 then give the same content, then you do not refer to any testimony given

5 in this court. I think that is the main source of the objection, not that

6 you confront the witness with what is contained in the testimony, what is

7 the evidence in such testimony, but that you relate it to testimony in

8 this court. Well, since you have done it already, please keep this in

9 mind for the next questions.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Q. Is it correct, witness --

12 MR. IERACE: Just to save time, I don't have any objection to the

13 Defence putting questions in that form where it is understood clearly that

14 the material is common ground between the parties. Thank you, Mr.

15 President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. But since this is not, then no reference

17 to other testimony and, of course, if you would say that there is

18 testimony that Sarajevo was located next to the river Miljacka, then of

19 course it would -- so that is a restriction on what I just told you.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 Q. Witness, is it true that in Sarajevo, during your tenure, most of

23 the destruction caused by the property happened at the front line or

24 around the front line; yes or no?

25 A. No.

Page 11108

1 Q. Very well. And why, briefly?

2 A. Why what? I am sorry.

3 Q. For what reason? What is the reason of your response, why do you

4 say no? Can you please explain.

5 A. Because much of the destruction of the city occurred across the

6 city, the opposite to what you said, hence, no.

7 Q. Very well. Are you telling us that there was more damage in the

8 centre of the town than at the front line? I am referring to the front

9 lines in Sarajevo.

10 A. It is extremely difficult to quantify damage. If you are

11 talking about any particular part of the city being more likely to be

12 damaged than any other, in my experience, the front line was set when I

13 arrived. Much damage there had already been done. And during my tenure

14 there, an awful lot more damage occurred away from the front lines in the

15 city.

16 Q. Very well. I take note of that.

17 Witness, do you know, yes or no, please, if the Serbs at one point

18 in time or another wanted a demilitarisation of Sarajevo?

19 A. I was aware through the workings of the mixed military working

20 group that both sides would appreciate that situation. That is not a

21 "yes" or "no" because I can't provide yes or no to complicated questions.

22 Q. I am doing my best, but I don't think it will be possible to

23 shorten your testimony because we again spend some time on technical

24 issues and that is the reason why I wanted you to reply with yes or no.

25 So in the interest of speed. Thank you very much. Let me continue.

Page 11109

1 Have you ever heard again, yes or no, of an operation called

2 "Oxygen"?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Is it true Witness, that your forces didn't keep any record of the

6 number of the wounded and the casualties during your mandate?

7 A. That was not one of the functions.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Is it true, Witness, that there were two major hospitals in

10 Sarajevo, the State Hospital and the Kosevo hospital?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Is it further correct that these hospitals were more or less the

14 same, in terms of size? In terms of capacity.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 I should now like to go back to the issue of mobile targets. Do

18 you know if there was a possibility for the Sarajevo forces, that is, the

19 government forces as they were referred to, to use civilian vehicles for

20 the purposes of transport of light mortars; yes or no?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Witness, did you personally see any such vehicles and if so, which

23 one?

24 A. Yes, I did. Soft-skinned vehicles, of normal commercial type.

25 Q. Can you tell us more precisely, for instance, whether any Golf

Page 11110

1 cars or any other types?

2 A. There were many types, but my understanding was the Volkswagen

3 depot adjacent to Sarajevo had had a number of vehicles removed from it

4 during the conflict and were used for Presidency transportation.

5 Q. You mean as the vehicles used by the army?

6 A. Amongst others.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 The vehicles used by the army, were they distinctive in any way?

9 Could they be distinguished from other vehicles?

10 A. They had no specific markings that indicated that they were

11 military vehicles.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 But these vehicles, were they used for military or logistic

14 operations?

15 A. Both.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 Were there any other types of vehicles apart from Golf?

18 A. Yes. There were other civilian vehicles.

19 Q. Can you tell us which one?

20 A. As many variable vehicles as you would expect to find in any city.

21 Q. Is it true, Witness, that the fuel market was under the control of

22 the army?

23 A. You refer to the Presidency army?

24 Q. Well, of the Presidency forces, generally speaking.

25 A. They would have been foolish not to.

Page 11111

1 Q. Yes. So it would be foolish of me to continue with questions in

2 this line at this point in time.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I think that we can

4 continue tomorrow with the cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] keeping in mind

6 that only a couple of minutes will be taken by the Defence, how much time

7 you would need to re-examine the witness?

8 MR. IERACE: Ten minutes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes. Yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me confer

11 with the General. When I said a few minutes, this was translated with a

12 couple of minutes. But actually, what I meant to say was a few couples of

13 minutes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the couple of minutes in

15 English means some minutes and not a couple to be understood as two

16 minutes. We will adjourn in one minute but, Mr. Ierace, after we

17 concluded the testimony of this witness, would that be a suitable moment

18 to discuss a few procedural issues tomorrow morning?

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So we will start, depending on how many questions the

21 Judges would have, at approximately 9.30 tomorrow, discussing procedural

22 issues and, Mr. Mole, would you please return tomorrow morning for a short

23 period of time to this courtroom. We will adjourn --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You caught me already today. So when I make a

Page 11112

1 mistake once. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what else would you like to say?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am truly sorry,

3 Mr. President, but in accordance to your usual rule, we would need a

4 couple seconds extra, I am trying not to inconvenience. If I do it

5 tomorrow, I think it would be post facto. Thank you very much.

6 25.25. Each time I am talking about the page and the line.

7 "Many" was used by the witness and cannot be translated as "beaucoup

8 d'hommes," because we also know there were women there.

9 26.25, another correction to be made.

10 27.3. "Position of their army" is not the same as "disposition of

11 the army." The same goes for page 11. Another problem in interpretation

12 concerning the word "checkpoint."

13 46.20. A large portion has not -- was not correctly interpreted,

14 talking about the rank of the General. I don't think that the General was

15 appointed to the "poste de formation," as it has been interpreted in

16 French. Thank you very much for your attention.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

19 the 4th day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.