Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12233

1 Wednesday, 24 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours,

12 good afternoon. Perhaps before we proceed, the Defence would like to

13 indicate the following: As regards the present witness, we have received,

14 but only yesterday evening or yesterday afternoon, documents which, so it

15 seems, were disclosed for the first time on this date by the Prosecution.

16 The documents concern this witness and a criminal complaint made by

17 several persons against this witness.

18 The issue is quite important. We didn't have enough time to

19 proceed with the inquiry and we have not been able to prepare ourselves

20 adequately for the cross-examination. So we believe that we will have to

21 be obliged to ask the re-appearance of this witness because simply we

22 cannot make time that does not exist. We cannot invent the additional

23 time that we would need, so this time will have to be found.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... disclosure of a

25 document?

Page 12234

1 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

2 Indeed the two documents really were discovered yesterday morning and they

3 were disclosed at the first opportunity, in accordance with the Rules. As

4 I think has been indicated before, we do continuous searches of the

5 millions of records that we have and the obligation to disclose is ongoing

6 from the beginning to the end and we always try to disclose as soon as the

7 documents come to our attention.


9 MR. STAMP: The documents are what, in fact, came to my attention

10 really were but two or three pages that were directly relevant to this

11 witness and immediately disclosed were the entire documents. Although I

12 would not want to say what the Defence case is, the entire documents may

13 not themselves be relevant to the issues in this case.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We will see then when the documents are there. We do

15 understand that the Prosecution fulfilled its obligation to disclose

16 documents and that the Defence takes the position that the late disclosure

17 would cause them to ask the recall of the witness, if necessary.

18 Let's first see what -- whether these documents will be tendered

19 and what these documents are and perhaps then see what type of decision

20 would be appropriate to take. If there is nothing else at this moment --

21 yes, Mr. Ierace. I can't imagine that you are there and you are not

22 taking this witness, that perhaps you would like to hear from the Chamber

23 some of the issues we discussed yesterday or am I wrong?

24 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. I am simply here to seek to

25 reserve a total of 15 minutes at the end of this evening's session to

Page 12235

1 raise a matter with you. It is in relation to the maps of the sniping and

2 shelling incidents, if that is convenient, perhaps I could return at that

3 stage.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We will do that at the end of the day and we will

5 deal with other procedural matters, such as lists of witnesses, et cetera.

6 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness, Mr. Hadzic,

7 into the courtroom.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Hadzic. May I remind you that

10 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at

11 the beginning of your testimony. Please be seated.

12 Mr. Stamp.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.


15 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Hadzic, when we last spoke we were discussing the role of the

17 Civil Defence and perhaps we could take it up from there. Did the Civil

18 Defence have any role or any tasks in doing anything to protect or to

19 prevent civilian persons from being shot, sniped or being injured by

20 shelling?

21 A. I think that I said yesterday that the civil protection carried

22 out the -- kept the roads clear in the central parts of Dobrinja in order

23 to protect the civilian population from snipers. And in these central

24 settlements whenever it was possible to put up some kind of protection,

25 containers or bags filled with earth or wrecked cars, they would be put in

Page 12236












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12237

1 place so that the civilian population could pass safely without getting

2 hurt.

3 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, could I

4 ask the -- that the witness be handed Exhibit D85.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


7 Q. From that document, can you see it is an order issued --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could it be put on the ELMO? D85 was not

9 foreseen by the Chamber that we should bring it, so, therefore...


11 Q. Firstly, could you look at the second page of that order and tell

12 us if you know the person who signed it, and if so, who that person is.

13 A. At that time I was undergoing medical treatment because I was

14 wounded, but this was signed by the chief of the staff of the brigade.

15 Q. Do you see on the front page of the document or maybe -- just for

16 the record, this document is dated the 20th of March, 1993, is it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you see the subject matter there. Could you tell us what the

19 subject matter is, please.

20 A. This order was passed by the Chief of Staff based on the order

21 which came from the 1st Corps command, so he sent it down to the units.

22 And it was usual for this to be done in this way. The people who worked

23 in the corps command are trained officers and they looked on things in an

24 ideal way, like they learned that at school. And when they talked about

25 the establishment of lines, the establishment of lines in Dobrinja is

Page 12238

1 something that was outside of the normal military doctrines, because, by

2 all elements, the configuration of the positions, the density of the

3 buildings, it was impossible to carry out the establishment of this second

4 line.

5 Q. So -- well, just to insure that there are no translation

6 difficulties, could you just read the first line of the order, in your own

7 language, of course.

8 A. "Carry out additional fortification of positions in the second

9 line by making facilities of full range with a light cover. In order to

10 carry out the works on the second line, exclusively engaged units of civil

11 protection and in order to carry out the trenches, to dig the trenches on

12 the first line, exclusively engage the men from the battalion units."

13 Q. This order, you told us, is an order passed on to the units in

14 your brigade on the base of an order from the corps command, is that so?

15 A. Yes, probably, because it was passed down to all the battalions.

16 Q. Well, does the first line immediately after the subject matter

17 indicate the basis of this order? Could you read the first line

18 immediately after the subject matter, please.

19 A. Are you thinking of line under number two?

20 Q. No. There is, towards the top of the page, a heading.

21 A. "Based on the order of the Chief of Staff of the 1st Corps,

22 confidential number 12/64-2."

23 Q. Now does this sentence indicate that this order was a reproduction

24 of the order from the 1st Corps command?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

Page 12239


2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have an objection. I have

3 an objection based on our doctrine which calls for citing the entire

4 sentence instead of just a part of it. It seems that my colleague stopped

5 halfway through the sentence and the sentence would need to be quoted

6 fully because it goes -- it runs to four lines.

7 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you another question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 This document was tendered on the 4th of April and was not admitted yet

9 because we are still waiting for a translation. So, I think the whole

10 problem would not have been there if the Chamber would have been provided

11 by the Defence with a translation. As far as I can see it has not been

12 done. So I fully agree with you that if we are dependent on the quoting

13 lines, and if we are not in a position that we can read the other part of

14 the line, which, of course, would take away the problem, because we could

15 have -- we could create our own image of the context.

16 But why is there no translation, so that D85.1 could have been

17 presented as well?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence

19 would like to apologise, but as you can see, we have a lot of work and

20 this is something that has slipped by and we will try to accomplish this

21 as soon as possible.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the Prosecution

23 who usually does not read B/C/S that well has some information about the

24 content of the -- could we have -- for example, provisional translation.

25 MR. STAMP: I have a provisional translation. I am a little bit

Page 12240

1 nervous of handing to the Court provisional translations, but I will try

2 to --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you --

4 MR. STAMP: Advise translation as soon as possible.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If you would perhaps quote the full line, if that

6 would be any better, and then perhaps during the first break, Defence and

7 Prosecution, are the only ones who understand this document, could find a

8 way of providing a final translation.

9 Please proceed.


11 Q. The first sentence of the document says: "Based on the 1st

12 Corps's Chief of Staff's order, strictly confidential number 12/64-2,

13 already performed works on reinforcement of positions and a situation

14 assessment on possible agressor's opinions operations in order to perform

15 works more rapid and complete, therefore, I order: One..." And it goes

16 on to say what it orders. Does that part of the order indicate the source

17 of the order?

18 A. Absolutely.

19 Q. And would that explain the reference to the second line position

20 above? If you look on the document, immediately above the part that I

21 just read there is a section, "Subject Arrangement of the Second Line

22 Position."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You indicated that, for practical purposes, the brigade in

Page 12241

1 Dobrinja did not have second line defensive positions, however, you can

2 see under section of the order marked "1", if you could have a look at

3 that.

4 And I think you just read it, it indicates that the Civil Defence

5 units would be employed to do some work.

6 A. This order was sent to all brigade commands in the area of

7 responsibility of the 1st Corps. Some brigades, because of their

8 positions were perhaps able to do what was ordered. But, I repeat, we, in

9 Dobrinja, because of the specific characteristics in Dobrinja were not

10 able to establish a second line. Whenever we tried to do anything that

11 had to do with a second line, it would result in chaos because physically

12 it was impossible to do this. The psychological condition of the

13 population was such that had we started to do anything, the population

14 would start to leave the area. So the only way we could defend the

15 civilian population in Dobrinja was to use only the first line of defence.

16 And if you wish, I could give you an example about the significant

17 advance of Serbian forces. During the offensive on Igman, when half the

18 civilian population was ready and packed in Dobrinja and prepared to

19 leave, this was the condition, the state of the citizens in Dobrinja.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 This order, as it is now transmitted by your brigade headquarters

22 to the units in your brigade, involves the Civil Defence doing some work,

23 does it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Have a look at the task that the Civil Defence has been given in

Page 12242

1 this order and if you could summarise for the Court what were these tasks

2 that the Civil Defence was asked to do.

3 A. From what I can see in this order, the places of the trenches were

4 specified exactly in the central parts of Dobrinja, which enabled

5 communication between certain settlements, so that the civilian population

6 could use these passages and be protected from sniper activities.

7 MR. STAMP: One moment. May I just.

8 Q. Can I take it from your answer that the task of the Civil Defence

9 was in the reinforcement of trenches to protect the civilian population in

10 Dobrinja from sniping; is that so?

11 A. I wouldn't say "trenches" because that is a military term. I

12 would say passages, the digging of passages so that the civilian

13 population could use them for passage.

14 Q. Now, was the Civil Defence subordinated to the army, in the sense

15 that they were under the command of the brigade in Dobrinja or was there

16 some other arrangement that you had with them?

17 A. No. The civil protection had a separate command, which was part

18 of the civilian structures which were active at that time.

19 Q. In the course of the period from the summer of 1992 to the summer

20 of 1994, can you describe to the Court the artillery and mortar tactics

21 employed by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in respect to Dobrinja, as far as

22 you observed?

23 A. The main task of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in Dobrinja was to

24 protect the parts of Dobrinja, to shell that part of Dobrinja, then they

25 would stop with the shelling, the intense shelling, and then they would

Page 12243

1 use the armoured units and the infantry to come into the settlement, take

2 the population and take them away. That was the tactic. The minute they

3 failed to do this then they would direct artillery fire at the place where

4 they wished to come into the settlement or shell the entire settlement.

5 Q. Up until what point in the conflict would the Sarajevo Romanija

6 Corps units come into the settlement, take the population and take them

7 away? About when in the conflict did that stop happening?

8 A. This happened in 1992, but they were not able to do that in 1993.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter would like to correct one word from

10 the previous answer of the witness. Instead of "protect" it should say

11 "select."


13 Q. So you said that the minute they failed to be able to come into

14 Dobrinja to take the population, they would direct artillery fire where

15 they wished to come into the settlement or shell the entire settlement.

16 When you say "shell entire settlement" could you briefly tell us what you

17 mean? In particular, was the shelling confined to areas where you had

18 your military units or was it spread right through the entire area of

19 Dobrinja?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. I have to object

23 regarding the manner of the question. Are we asking this witness about

24 the specific line or the entire area of Dobrinja? I think that the issue

25 is less drastic than the way it has been described by the Prosecution.

Page 12244












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12245

1 MR. STAMP: May I then just rephrase it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


4 Q. When you say that they would shell the entire settlement, from

5 your observation, did they shell any particular targets or was the

6 shelling indiscriminate in the settlement?

7 A. They were targeting the entire settlement at random.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object to the use of the

9 word "indiscriminate." We all know what it means. Because there is

10 always a possibility of there being a target somewhere and, therefore, the

11 question should be phrased in a more specific manner.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this could have perfectly been an

13 issue you would raise during cross-examination. But would you please be

14 selective in interrupting Mr. Stamp's examination-in-chief.


16 Q. And you have spoken quite a few times about sniping. Could you

17 describe to us what the sniping was like for the population of Dobrinja

18 during 1993 up to the summer of 1994.

19 A. Throughout the war, including 1993 and 1994 --

20 Q. Excuse me. For the sake of time, I am going to ask you to confine

21 your answer. Tell us about the period between the summer of 1992 to the

22 summer of 1994, and not throughout the war. Just, please, if you could

23 tell us what the sniping was like on the civilians in Dobrinja between the

24 summer of 1992 to the summer of 1994.

25 A. Briefly, it was horrible.

Page 12246

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not only did the French booth

2 say several times "1993," instead of 1992. I think we are talking about

3 1992.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the French translation, it could create

5 no confusion. You are the only one listening to the French channel, and

6 we do it at the end of the hearing. So may I again ask you --

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, of course 1993 was mentioned at

9 least once, but let's not spend time on it. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, again,

10 interruptions and objections when there is a good reason to do so.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. The question was: Can you describe for the Court the sniping

14 tactics employed by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the period August

15 or September 1992 to August 1994.

16 A. At all elevated points, whenever it was possible to put sniping

17 nests, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps did it, in order to shoot at the

18 population. Also, when it comes to these communication passages, whenever

19 someone strayed away from that passage or from those communication

20 trenches they would become targets and consequently victims of sniping.

21 Snipers even shot at the members of the international forces who came to

22 deliver us food. Quite a few of them were wounded or killed.

23 They didn't choose their targets. Everyone could become a target.

24 An elderly person, a child, a dog or a cat, everything that moved would be

25 targeted and shot at.

Page 12247

1 Q. Now, in respect to persons who were injured, the casualties from

2 the sniping and the shelling, did -- was a medical facility created in

3 Dobrinja to accommodate these person?

4 A. There was an area that we used as a hospital. It was a make-shift

5 hospital where we could admit these people, the wounded people. The less

6 severe cases were dealt with by us, but the most serious cases, after the

7 initial treatment at our hospital, would be sent then to one of the

8 Sarajevo hospitals.

9 Q. Who was the head of that makeshift hospital?

10 A. Dr. Hadzir.

11 Q. That is Dr. Jusuf Hadzir. Now, in relation to where the brigade

12 headquarters was, how far away was this make-shift hospital?

13 A. The hospital was located almost at the very centre of Dobrinja,

14 some hundred or -- between 50 and 100 metres away from the headquarters.

15 Because in that building, before the war, there used to be a small

16 department of a children's clinic, an out-patient children's clinic, and

17 this is where we organised this make-shift hospital.

18 Q. Now, was the area in which your headquarters was shelled?

19 A. It was shelled as much as any other neighbourhood, any other part

20 of Dobrinja.

21 Q. How about the hospital? Can you say if there was any shelling in

22 respect to the hospital?

23 A. Not as intensely --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. I

25 object to this question because there is a claim here that the hospital

Page 12248

1 was exposed under shelling. So, instead of asking the question, whether

2 there was any shelling of the hospital, and furthermore, the distance,

3 according to the witness, between the headquarters and the hospital was 50

4 metres. So in view of that and a number of other things that we already

5 know about, this question is rather leading and contentious.

6 MR. STAMP: Much of what we know, is probably going to be the

7 subject of argument at the appropriate time. Having regard to the

8 evidence that has gone on before, I would submit that the question is not

9 a leading question, however, I could rephrase it.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. So the question was whether

12 you can say there was any shelling in respect of the -- in respect to the

13 hospital and you commenced answering: "Not as intensely." And then what

14 would be the rest of your answer?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every single part of Dobrinja was

16 exposed to severe shelling. One couldn't single out a specific area and

17 say that it was shelled the more intensely than other parts. Thousands of

18 shells were landing at the time. It was raining shells.


20 Q. Thank you.

21 Could you --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon.

24 Q. Could you, having been the commander of the brigade, can you tell

25 us, if you can, what was the main sniper nest or sniper places from which

Page 12249

1 there was sniper fire into Dobrinja?

2 A. What period of time do you want me to talk about?

3 Q. From September 1992 to August 1994, what were the primary areas in

4 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps territory that sniping fire was directed into

5 Dobrinja from?

6 A. The most intense sniping came from the tower of the Orthodox

7 church and also from high-rise ground in Dobrinja IV. The Airport

8 Settlement and the village which was controlled by the Serb forces,

9 looking towards the area of Dobrinja. Looking towards Mojmilo and

10 Alipasino Polje, it was the Catholic university, the children's community

11 centre, Sanjak House and all other major elevated points where snipers

12 could be placed. But those were the most prominent points.

13 Q. You said the Catholic university. Is that institution known by

14 any other name or designation?

15 A. Well, it dominates the area of Nedzarici near the river because of

16 its height, and it covers the area between the junction in Nedzarici, all

17 the way up to Dobrinja V. Perhaps even as far as the village. I know it

18 as a Catholic university or a university of theology. Sniper nests were

19 always there, as well as other weapons which were covering the approach

20 roads to Dobrinja where about 137 people were killed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to

23 react, because I think it is very important. The French booth did not

24 seize two lines on page 15. I am referring to lines 18 and 19. They have

25 been only partially translated.

Page 12250

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at the end of the session, any

2 comments on the French translation. No one, apart from you, is listening

3 to the French channel, as far as I am aware of.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp. I did say this 15 minutes before to

5 you as well. I would like you to listen to what I say.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

7 MR. STAMP: I am obliged, Mr. President.

8 Q. The Sanjak House, hopefully I have the pronunciation correct,

9 where was that?

10 A. You have the pronunciation correct. It was located on a hill on a

11 slope between the home for mentally retarded children and the old people's

12 home which actually that never started working. It dominated the whole

13 area, the whole hill and it covered the area between the junction in

14 Nedzarici all the way to Alipasino Polje and Vojnicko Polje.

15 Q. You mentioned the Orthodox church.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that was one of the -- that was one of the areas of the most

18 intense sniping came from. Can you say when that church was built? Do

19 you know?

20 A. I do. The work started before the war. I don't think it was ever

21 fully completed, but the tower was there.

22 Q. And you said the tower was there, that is, during the war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you be able to identify that area or that position, if I

25 showed you a photograph of the area?

Page 12251

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, I respectfully ask if

3 I could show the witness a photograph which was used in the opening of

4 this case. The photograph at that time did have on it certain markings,

5 however, I think those markings, having regard to the earlier ruling or

6 the ruling this Court made in regard to another issue, that those writings

7 be covered, and that is all that is covered.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is covered already.

9 MR. STAMP: It is?


11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember what the MFI number is, just for the

13 record Mr. Stamp? If you could find out and then inform us.

14 MR. STAMP: I will.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 MR. STAMP: Can you hold it into the position so that Court in

17 particular and the Defence as well could.

18 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

19 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness has pointed to a spot that

20 I couldn't see.

21 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now no one can see. Could perhaps the part the

23 witness is pointing to be put a bit lower on the ELMO? Would that be of

24 any assistance? Mr. Usher, would you please put it down so that we --

25 yes, there we are. And could you please point at it again. Yes.

Page 12252

1 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

2 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness is pointing to an elevated

3 structure towards the top of the photograph and to the left of the

4 photograph. I am trying to find a unique --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be approximately one-third from the left of

6 the photograph, a bit less perhaps, structured right under the top of the

7 photograph, consisting of a building with one tower which seems to be

8 rather wide, apart from the very very top of that tower.

9 MR. STAMP: I think I could describe it: A building with a dome

10 in the middle and a higher tower to the right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think that is clear.


13 Q. Thank you very much --

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Stamp, would you please ask the witness,

15 those buildings which are below the church, belong to which settlement,

16 which neighbourhood?


18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, could you just point to that line of building below

19 the church.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Now, could you tell us what was the name of this community and

22 which part of Dobrinja was that at?

23 A. This part of Dobrinja is Dobrinja IV, which was captured by the

24 Serb forces as early as in April or May 1992.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

Page 12253


2 Q. Thank you, Witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please keep it a bit closer to

4 us so we can see the whole picture. Please continue, Mr. Stamp, and we

5 will listen carefully at the same time.


7 Q. In respect to shelling of Dobrinja, can you tell us the main

8 locations from which the shells were fired into Dobrinja?

9 A. According to our intelligence information that was gathered by the

10 people who were in charge of that, these were the locations of the, for

11 instance, Nedzarici Barracks. The area below the University of Theology

12 in Nedzarici, the area near Kasindolska Street. Mortar positions or

13 batteries in Krtelji, Gornji Kotarac, Gavrica Brdo, the Lukavica Barracks,

14 and the playground right above the barracks, there. There were quite a

15 few of such locations.

16 Q. Now where would this intelligence information come from, can you

17 indicate that to us?

18 A. Our people probably managed to gather such information from those

19 individuals who were located at the various observation points and the

20 people who, during the war, had fled from their side over to the other

21 side and brought with them relevant information. They probably had other

22 intelligence sources that I couldn't tell you, that I am not able to tell

23 you about. But they managed to gather this type of information.

24 Q. Can you tell us, general, as brigade commander, were you aware of

25 what type of mortars they had in Nedzarici, in the Nedzarici area?

Page 12254

1 A. There were two types of shells in the area of Nedzarici,

2 82-millimetre and 120-millimetre mortars.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 And can you say from your -- well, having lived in Dobrinja, when

5 they were shelling at Dobrinja, would you be able to tell sometimes where

6 it was being shelled from?

7 A. In Nedzarici, one could hear the actual firing of mortar shells

8 quite clearly. Dobrinja is a rather acoustic area and one could hear the

9 firing there as well.

10 Q. I would like to take you to a couple particular days during the

11 conflict. Can you recall the 1st of June, 1993? Did something

12 significant happen on that day?

13 A. Of course. I will never forget that day. Two shells hit Dobrinja

14 and killed 15 children. 21 -- 121 people were wounded, 56 out of them,

15 severely.

16 Q. Approximately what was the proportion of civilians to military

17 persons among the casualties in that incident of that day?

18 A. I couldn't tell you the exact number, but I think it was 50-50,

19 roughly speaking. But that's not very important. Children died.

20 Children who wanted to live.

21 Q. Among --

22 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, could the witness be

23 shown D25 and D25.1.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes please, Mr. Usher, could you assist. Mr. Stamp,

25 if you intend to rely on more exhibits that were admitted earlier, I think

Page 12255












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12256

1 it is handy to give a list already to the Registrar so she can prepare

2 already finding the documents.

3 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

4 Q. Is that a report which you sent to your corps command on the day

5 of this incident?

6 A. Yes. This is the report of the officer on duty to the command and

7 these reports were sent regularly.

8 Q. Now, among your soldiers who were killed and injured in that

9 event, were any of them engaged in any military activity at the time?

10 A. No, they were free.

11 Q. What were they doing, do you know?

12 A. I don't know what people did when they left the lines, when they

13 were off-duty. Obviously, some of them had gone out to play ball.

14 Q. Were there any significant military activity by any units in your

15 brigade on that day?

16 A. I don't think so. I think that was an exceptionally calm day.

17 Q. I would like to take you now --

18 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. Usher, you can take away that document.

19 Q. Could I take you now to the 12th of February, 1993. Do you recall

20 a significant event of that day? I beg your pardon. I withdraw that

21 question.

22 The 12th of July, 1993.

23 A. That was another sad day for Dobrinja. 15 civilians were killed

24 at a gas station at the station on the C5 Dobrinja settlement and a number

25 of civilians were wounded.

Page 12257

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the number.


3 Q. Could you tell us again was the place where these people were

4 killed on that day, the 12th of July, 1993?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the interpreters didn't catch the number

6 of casualties. Could you please -- oh, the number of -- the number of

7 wounded.


9 Q. Can you say how many civilians were wounded on the 12th of July in

10 the incident that you spoke of?

11 A. About 20.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think, but I am

14 not sure, this is the Serbian booth, I think it is a pump, and I think it

15 was interpreted differently. So in order to avoid confusion, I would like

16 to just state that.

17 MR. STAMP: Yes, I think I heard --

18 JUDGE ORIE: It is translated in English as "gas station."

19 MR. STAMP: Yes, that is precisely why I asked him the next

20 question.

21 Q. Could you tell us again, what place the people were at who were

22 killed on the 12th of July 1993?

23 A. I repeat on that day, at the water pump in the line. So this was

24 a hand pump which was located there. So about 14 people were killed there

25 and 20 were wounded, people who came there to get their water supply,

Page 12258

1 because the water was the main problem in our life in Dobrinja, and the

2 Serb forces knew that very well because they shut down the main water

3 supply to the settlement.

4 So, we did the best we can to get water. We even drank industrial

5 water from the river.

6 Q. Was that water pump, a water pump which was used by units of your

7 brigade?

8 A. The brigade did not get supplies from that water pump, no.

9 Q. Can you -- would you be in a position to mark on a map where that

10 water pump was?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, I respectfully ask that

13 he be allowed to mark the map which he had pre-marked in red and if he

14 could do so with blue.




18 Q. Is that a blue pen?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am sorry, suppose he were to put the map --

21 it is upside down.

22 MR. STAMP: Yes. I was about to ask. Can you turn the map.

23 Q. Okay. Could you just put your initials right under that blue

24 spot.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 12259

1 MR. STAMP: Could you put that on the ELMO so I can see what is

2 happening, please. So we can all see.

3 Q. About how far was that spot or is that spot that you just marked

4 from the house which lead to the trench, which lead to the tunnel?

5 A. It is from 30 to 50 metres.

6 Q. Now, can you tell us, when did the tunnel -- you told us

7 yesterday, I believe, that the tunnel came into operation on the 30th of

8 July.

9 A. Yes, on the 30th of July, 1993.

10 Q. Now, prior to the 12th of July 1993 did that area attract mortar

11 fire and if so, could you tell us if there was any particular pattern to

12 the mortar fire in that area?

13 A. There was no usual pattern. Just like the rest of Dobrinja, that

14 part was shelled as well. There was no routine standard in the shelling,

15 but just like all the other settlements, it was shelled.

16 Q. At the time of this incident, according to your evidence, the

17 tunnel was not in use?

18 A. No. It was still being dug.

19 Q. Did you have military personnel posted in the vicinity of the

20 tunnel around the 12th of July?

21 A. Not in that place, no. But in the initial stage, that building

22 was not used as the entrance to the tunnel. It is a little bit deeper

23 inside the settlement. That is where the tunnel went down into the

24 ground. But as the tunnel began to be used later, a checkpoint was made

25 so that there was an entrance to the tunnel from the building which was

Page 12260

1 near the pump where this incident occurred.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 Now, what I am asking though, is on the 12th of July, did you have

4 any military units or personnel posted in the vicinity of the entrance to

5 your tunnel, to the tunnel?

6 A. No.

7 Q. As commander of the Dobrinja Brigade, did you form a view as to

8 whether the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was aware of where the tunnel entrance

9 on your side, that is, on the Dobrinja side, was?

10 A. I don't think that they knew the exact location of the entrance to

11 the tunnel on our side. Had they known, perhaps it would have been

12 hellish on that side, because at some points there were hundreds of

13 soldiers and civilians who were waiting to get into the tunnel. The

14 second part of the tunnel, they knew about and it was under fierce

15 shelling, the entrance -- the exit from the tunnel was in Donji Kotorac

16 was under intense fire.

17 Q. Just to be precise, you said at some points, "there were hundreds

18 of civilians and soldiers who were waiting to get into the tunnel." That

19 would be after the tunnel opened, would it not?

20 A. Yes. After the tunnel was opened and after the entrance was moved

21 to this building, which the entrance to which is marked on this map.

22 Q. Now, on the 12th of July, where was the entrance?

23 A. Here, in this circle on the map, which is indicated here.

24 Q. On the 12th of July, was the trench from the entrance to the

25 building yet dug?

Page 12261

1 A. The trench didn't go towards the building. There was no trench up

2 to the road. The road was dug and the trench went from the road up to

3 this house from where the tunnel, digging for the tunnel was started.

4 Q. Can we just go over that a little bit.

5 Or maybe I should just ask you to describe to the Court, what was

6 located in that area on the 12th of July, not after the 12th of July when

7 the tunnel opened, but on the 12th of July, 1993, what was located in that

8 area that you have just pointed to and spoken about?

9 A. From here you mean?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. From here there was a private house here and from there the

12 tunnel -- the digging for the tunnel was started towards the other side.

13 So it was gradually being inclined from the surface part and it was

14 gradually dug to a depth of four metres. So the digging continued all the

15 way to the other side. It's interesting to point out that the tunnel zone

16 or the tunnel trench reached the water streams, but it was important to

17 say that the water didn't flood the tunnel. We still managed to dig it

18 through.

19 Q. When you say the "water streams" you mean the streams beneath the

20 airport?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, coming back towards what you said, and this is just for the

23 record, you said from here there was a private house, and from there the

24 tunnel, the digging for the tunnel was started towards the other side. I

25 should indicate that the witness pointed to the circle on the red line

Page 12262

1 that he had drawn before.

2 Now, before the tunnel opened and on the 12th of July, that is the

3 date I want you to focus on, on the 12th of July before the tunnel was

4 opened for activity, what existed between where this little circle on the

5 line is and the building to the north is?

6 A. A meadow, a clearing.

7 Q. Can you turn your attention now, please to the 22nd of February,

8 1994. May I withdraw that question.

9 The 22nd of January, 1994, do you recall an incident in which some

10 children were killed in Alipasino Polje on that day?

11 A. On the 21st of January in 1994. As far as I remember --

12 Q. Is it the 21st of January or the 22nd of January, or are you quite

13 sure of the date?

14 A. I am not sure, but I know that it was winter and that the children

15 were killed while they were sledding. In the central part of Alipasino

16 Polje in a part below the playground, a shell hit and killed the children

17 while they were sledding.

18 Q. Now between the area where the children were killed and Nedzarici,

19 which was at that time occupied by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, did your

20 brigade have any mortar batch positions?

21 A. Never. Never.

22 Q. Did you have 82-millimetre mortars at that time?

23 A. Never. Because that was not our area of responsibility.

24 Alipasino Polje was not in the area of the responsibility of our brigade.

25 Q. How far north was -- or may I put it this way: Where did your

Page 12263

1 area of responsibility stop going north?

2 A. The communication which went from Nedzarici to Dobrinja, that was

3 the border of our area of responsibility, including the Olympic village,

4 Mojmilo, which was part of our area, part of our area of responsibility.

5 So from Nedzarici towards Dobrinja, the right side of the settlement,

6 Vojnicko Polje up until the cross-roads of the Olympic village Mojmilo,

7 and then this part of Dobrinja, just as you entered Dobrinja.

8 Q. You said it was quite easy for one to clearly hear when shells

9 were fired Nedzarici into Dobrinja. Can you or can you not comment upon

10 whether or not that would obtain, if one was in Alipasino Polje?

11 A. I can't say exactly


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to object because

14 this is a hypothetical question, it doesn't contain concrete, specific

15 elements but just pure hypothesis.

16 MR. STAMP: I will try to be a little bit more specific.

17 Q. If one were in the area of Alipasino Polje where the children were

18 killed, could one hear when shells were fired from Nedzarici?

19 A. Yes.


21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

22 already replied, but once again, this is a hypothetical question, assume

23 and so on. Can we know -- and so on. But the witness wasn't there.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know there, whether the witness was there

25 and has been there at that time, but apart from that, sometimes questions

Page 12264

1 can relate to human experience, and if you know distances, the sometimes

2 you can tell something about what these distances mean in view of sight

3 and of what you could hear, especially under the acoustic circumstances on

4 which the witness testified before.

5 So, the objection is denied.

6 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Could you now turn to the 4th of February, 1994. There was an

8 incident of significance in Dobrinja. Can you recall that?

9 A. Could you please remind me.

10 Q. Was there an incident in Dobrinja on the 4th of February, 1994

11 where persons were killed and injured in circumstances where humanitarian

12 aid was being distributed?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


18 Q. At the time of that incident, were there any troop movements or

19 military activity by your troops that day?

20 A. As far as I recall, no.

21 Q. Can you say what was the closest military installation you had?

22 But before I ask that question, may I just ask this one: Do you know

23 where the incident occurred on the 4th of February, 1994?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you say what was your closest military unit or activity or

Page 12265

1 facility to where the incident occurred?

2 A. These were the front lines of defence towards the Kula or towards

3 the warehouses of the Sedrenik Construction Company. So that is where our

4 units were located.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the witness is pointing at some place at

6 the map at this very moment. Could you please repeat that, Mr. Hadzic.

7 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

8 JUDGE ORIE: And you are -- yes.


10 Q. Could you say what you are pointing to?

11 A. I am pointing to the place where our units were, at the point that

12 they were -- at the closest point to the location of the incident. And

13 this is where the incident occurred.

14 Q. Well, since you have pointed to the place where the incident

15 occurred and where your closest units were, could you put a small "tick"

16 where the incident occurred and then "X" where your closest military units

17 were.

18 MR. STAMP: The witness for the record writes a cross to the point

19 where he pointed to.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


22 Q. Put a "tick," if you don't mind.

23 A. [Marks]

24 MR. STAMP: And the witness puts a "tick" looking like an "L" at

25 the spot where he indicated the incident occurred.

Page 12266












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12267

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Did you -- did you observe --

3 MR. STAMP: I am being told, Mr. President, Your Honours that --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is already 15 minutes to 4.00. How much time

5 would you still need?

6 MR. STAMP: Five minutes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would the interpreters and the technicians be willing

8 to continue for five minutes so we can finish the examination-in-chief? I

9 see nodding in the affirmative.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


12 Q. You have spoken about the sniping of civilians and the random

13 shelling in Dobrinja, and that there were casualties among the civilians.

14 How, in that period of time, did the civilians cope? Specifically, did

15 you observe whether or not this shooting and shelling of civilians

16 impacted on them psychologically?

17 A. I noticed, yes. I think this had a deadening psychological effect

18 on people. You never knew if you went out that whether something would

19 happen to you or not. Especially if you tried to pretend that times were

20 normal and if you tried to behave in a normal way, in that case, it is

21 possible that you could become the victim of a sniper.

22 The psychological state of the -- the psychological condition of

23 the population was very very difficult.

24 Q. Go on.

25 A. I have already talked about -- not only because of the sniper

Page 12268

1 activity, but because of the supply with water and the worry about their

2 families, the lack of fuel. During that period, there was no electricity,

3 no water, no wood, no gas. There was no telephone service. There was a

4 general hopelessness and nobody could see an end to it.

5 Q. I have to ask you a follow-up question based on something you just

6 said. Could you just tell me quickly, when you said that there was no

7 telephone service, was this situation continuous through the period or did

8 you have telephone service sometimes through the period September 1992 to

9 August 1994?

10 A. I think that the situation regarding the telephones, regarding the

11 military telephone lines improved in 1994 because we laid down cables to

12 Mojmilo. But the civilian population didn't have any telephone service.

13 MR. STAMP: That is the examination-in-chief, may it please you,

14 Mr. President, Your Honours. I beg your pardon. That is the

15 examination-in-chief.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

17 We will adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00 and then you will be

18 cross-examined by the Defence, Mr. Hadzic.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is it you that is going to

22 cross-examine the witness? Yes, please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will take the

24 witness for one part of the cross-examination and my colleague will take

25 him in the second part of the cross-examination. But we will remain

Page 12269

1 within the timeframe used by the Prosecution.

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, good afternoon. Can you confirm for

4 us, Mr. Hadzic, that on the 24th and 25th of October, 2001, you gave a

5 statement to the investigators of the OTP?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you attach a map to this statement, the map that we discussed

8 today?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You told us yesterday, Mr. Hadzic, at the beginning of the

11 examination conducted by my learned colleague, and I am referring to the

12 period 1992, 1993, and 1994, that prior to the outbreak of the conflict,

13 you had worked in the Energoinvest company?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you ever actively involved in politics?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you ever a member of a political party?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which one, please?

20 A. Party of Democratic Action.

21 Q. Were you -- did you become a member of this party from the

22 beginning -- at the beginning of its existence?

23 A. Not really.

24 Q. When exactly did you join the SDA?

25 A. I don't know the exact date.

Page 12270

1 Q. Could you tell us the year, please.

2 A. 1991, I think.

3 Q. When you became a member of the SDA, were you aware of the

4 programme of this party?

5 A. Not entirely.

6 Q. When you say, "not entirely," what exactly do you mean? What part

7 of the programme was familiar to you?

8 A. I was familiar with the part of the programme that advocated the

9 equality of the peoples in the area of the former Yugoslavia.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I tell you that the programme of the SDA was the

11 creation of an Islamic society and the establishment of Islamic authority

12 based on the principles of Islamic declaration, would you agree with me?

13 A. No, that is not correct.

14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, did you ever attend the rallies organised by the SDA?

15 A. I attended some of them.

16 Q. Would you agree with me, Mr. Hadzic, if I say that the rallies of

17 the SDA were conducted with the usage of lot of symbols, national symbols?

18 A. No, at least, not the ones that I attended.

19 Q. What rallies specifically did you attend? Were any such rallies

20 organised in Dobrinja?

21 A. No, not in Dobrinja.

22 Q. Did you ever hold any office, any function, in the SDA?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The Party for Democratic Action, did it, at any one point in time,

25 establish its own army which was called the Patriotic League?

Page 12271

1 A. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I was not a

2 member of the Patriotic League.

3 Q. Were you aware of its existence?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. What was the role of the Patriotic League, if you can tell us?

6 A. I couldn't tell you anything specific.

7 Q. In 1992, in Dobrinja, were there any members of the Patriotic

8 League?

9 A. According to what I heard, yes.

10 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Hadzic, that members of the Patriotic League on

11 the 4th of May 1992, tried to organise or establish the Territorial

12 Defence at Dobrinja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us how many members participated in the founding of

15 the Territorial Defence, how many members of the Patriotic League?

16 A. I couldn't tell you that, because I did not attend that meeting.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, were you aware of the fact that the Patriotic League

18 had about 60 to 70.000 armed members in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. No, I was not aware of that. And besides, the figure is

20 ridiculous. It is simply not logical.

21 Q. Members of the Patriotic League in the area of Dobrinja, were they

22 armed?

23 A. Poorly.

24 Q. When you say, "poorly," can you tell us how they were armed?

25 A. Well, they were armed with make-shift rifles, hunting rifles,

Page 12272

1 pistols, M-56 automatic rifles, old German automatic rifles. That kind of

2 weapons.

3 Q. In the area of Dobrinja - I am referring to April and May

4 1992 - were there any other voluntarily, so to speak groups which were

5 armed and which had joined the Territorial Defence there?

6 A. There were several groups, but not all of them joined the

7 Territorial Defence. And their members were very poorly armed.

8 Q. When you say that there were several groups, can you tell us if

9 these groups had any names?

10 A. I couldn't give you an exact answer in that sense, but most of

11 these groups were formed in specific neighbourhoods of Dobrinja, and then

12 they would be called after that neighbourhood. For example, Dobrinja I,

13 IV, V, II, C-5 and so on.

14 Q. Delta, Mamba, Topa's fighters, Tabija; were these the names of

15 such groups?

16 A. No, not in Dobrinja, as far as I can recall. These names belonged

17 or designated the groups that were organised in town.

18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, would you agree with me if I tell you that after the

19 multiparty elections which were handled in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

20 inter-ethnic tensions increased, was that the result of the multiparty

21 elections?

22 A. I couldn't really agree with you. At least when it comes to the

23 company I worked for, such tensions could not be felt.

24 Q. What about your neighbourhood, Dobrinja, the part of town where

25 you lived?

Page 12273

1 A. No. Such tensions were not felt there either. People lived a

2 normal life.

3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, yesterday you spoke about the presence of the Yugoslav

4 People's Army in the month of May 1992, in the area of Dobrinja. Speaking

5 of the Mojmilo hill, specifically, when did you personally see members of

6 the JNA for the first time?

7 A. It was on the 17th of March, 1992 that the units of the JNA came

8 out to the Mojmilo hill, and took up positions at the water tower there.

9 Q. Do you know who the commander of the unit in question was, the

10 unit that captured the Mojmilo hill?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. If I tell you that it was the unit commanded by Mr. Enver

13 Hadzihasanovic, who at the time held the rank of major, would you agree

14 with me, with this piece of information?

15 A. The unit commanded by him, no, General Hadzihasanovic did not

16 command this unit. The unit which was under his command was a larger unit

17 located in Lukavica.

18 Q. But those were units under his command?

19 A. Yes, at that time, yes.

20 Q. Is it true that during that period of time, the leading positions

21 within the JNA in the area of the 5th military district were occupied by

22 persons such as Mr. Rasim Delic, Vehbija Karic and others?

23 A. I don't know, I was not a member of the army.

24 Q. Yes, sir, but yesterday you told us it was a Serb army. I should

25 like to know what was the base for that assertion, if you were not

Page 12274

1 familiar with the military issues?

2 A. I said yesterday that it was the units of the JNA that had taken

3 up positions at the Mojmilo hill as far as I remember. Shortly after

4 that, Albanian members of these units fled from the Mojmilo hill and the

5 composition of the unit there changed. Serb soldiers arrived. They

6 changed the flag and generally speaking, the composition of the unit there

7 was changed.

8 Q. So you were familiar with the situation at the time in the area?

9 A. I was able to see it with my own eyes. My apartment overlooks the

10 Mojmilo hill. I could plainly see what flag was hoisted there.

11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, yesterday you also told us about the barricades that

12 were set up in Dobrinja. When did this take place?

13 A. On the 4th of May, the barricade at Dobrinja was set up on the 4th

14 of May and on the Dobrinja Mojmilo location, that is, it was set on the

15 Dobrinja Mojmilo location which resulted in a complete encirclement of the

16 Dobrinja neighbourhood.

17 Q. Can you confirm for us the fact that Dobrinja belonged to the Novi

18 Grad municipality?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was there a Public Security Station in Dobrinja?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You have mentioned the 4th of May. Do you know that on that day,

23 nine members of the JNA were brought to this police station who were

24 subsequently tortured and killed.

25 A. I read about this in the papers.

Page 12275

1 Q. Was that one of the reasons for the setting up of the barricades?

2 A. I don't think so. May I add something please? I think that these

3 soldiers, at least, according to what I was able to read in the papers,

4 were brought to the police station in Novi Grad on the 17th or the 18th of

5 May.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, on the 17th or 18th of

7 April.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know who it was that tortured and killed these people?

10 A. No. We were cut off from the 4th of April [as interpreted].

11 Nobody could leave Dobrinja, nor could anyone enter Dobrinja during that

12 period of time.

13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, when was the Territorial Defence unit in Dobrinja

14 established?

15 A. Well, you mentioned the 5th of May, I think.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I just ask whether there is any confusion, Ms.

17 Pilipovic. Until now, the blockade, as it was called, was said to have

18 happened on the 4th of May. And we find now the 4th of April on page 39,

19 line 20. Where it says "we were cut off from the 4th of April." Is this

20 a mistake or are we talking about something different?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a mistake, Your Honour. We

22 were cut off on the 4th of May.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 12276

1 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you testified yesterday about the departure of the

2 residents of Dobrinja and the fact that at one point in time they left

3 their homes there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What ethnicity were they?

6 A. I am not sure but I believe that they were members of various

7 ethnic groups, however, the majority were Muslim.

8 Q. When did the Serbs leave Dobrinja?

9 A. According to my knowledge, in April.

10 Q. How many Serbs left Dobrinja, if you know?

11 A. I couldn't tell you exactly how many, but it was a large number,

12 definitely.

13 Q. Will you agree with me if I tell you that the departure of Serbs

14 from Dobrinja was the consequence of physical and psychological abuse of

15 various voluntary groups in Dobrinja which were organised along ethnic

16 lines?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know if the members of such groups went from apartment to

19 apartment and marked Serb apartments in the area with the remark, with the

20 warning that the -- to the effect that the Serbs should leave Dobrinja?

21 A. No, I don't have such information.

22 Q. In April and May in the area of Dobrinja, do you know that there

23 were several prisons in the area of Dobrinja where people were detained

24 and tortured?

25 A. No.

Page 12277












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Page 12278

1 Q. Can you confirm for us the fact that in Dobrinja, while you lived

2 there in 1992, 1993, and 1994, there were two restaurants by the name of

3 Sunce and Baltazar?

4 A. I know there was a cafe called Baltazar before the war. I don't

5 know what became of it during the war.

6 Q. If I tell you that this cafe, the Baltazar cafe was used as a

7 prison for Serbs during the war, would you agree with me?

8 A. No, I didn't know that.

9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, during the examination-in-chief, you spoke about the

10 establishment of the 5th Motorised Brigade and told us that it was

11 established on the 6th of July --

12 A. Not the 5th, but the 1st Dobrinja Brigade. It was established on

13 the 6th of July 1992.

14 Q. What specific units were active in the area of Dobrinja prior to

15 the 6th of July? I am referring to military units.

16 A. I don't know that. I told you that there had been groups,

17 voluntary groups of patriots who had organised themselves with the purpose

18 of defending the area from incursions .

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to be

20 shown a document -- a document at this point, which would then be

21 marked --


23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have provided this document to

24 my learned colleagues from the Prosecution and the interpretation booths.

25 MR. STAMP: Yes, indeed we get some -- very well. We did get some

Page 12279

1 documents. Thank you.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you see in front of you a document signed by the

4 assistant commander for morale, Hamdija Alagumdjia [phoen]?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the left corner of this document, do we read "the 5th Motorised

7 Brigade command"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, from this document, can we see that the Dobrinja and

10 Airport Settlement Territorial Defence units were formed on the 6th of

11 May?

12 A. Well, that is what it says here.

13 Q. On the 22nd of May 1992, was the 1st Dobrinja Battalion formed?

14 A. I don't know that, but I am aware of the fact that it was

15 established at one point in time, however, I don't know the date.

16 Q. According to this document, would the 6th of July, 1992 mark the

17 day when the 1st Dobrinja Brigade was formed, the one which was later

18 called the 5th Motorised Brigade?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you lived in the area in question during the relevant

21 times. Can you tell us where the location of the Territorial Defence

22 Staff for Dobrinja and Airport Settlement was?

23 A. The staff was located in the same building where the hospital was.

24 Q. When you say, "hospital" are you referring to the children's

25 clinic?

Page 12280

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us where the 1st Dobrinja Battalion headquarters was

3 in May 1992?

4 A. I believe it was in the same building where the premises of the

5 Jugodrvo company were.

6 Q. When you say in the same building where Jugodrvo was located what

7 location do you have in mind? What street do you have in mind?

8 A. I don't know what street it is.

9 Q. What kind of facility was it? What kind of a building was it?

10 A. It was an eight-storey building with several entrances.

11 Q. Are you telling us that this was the building where the

12 headquarters of the 1st Dobrinja Battalion was located and that the

13 residents of Dobrinja lived on the upper floors of this building?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, can you tell us the members of the TO and the 1st Dobrinja

16 Battalion, how were they dressed?

17 A. What do you mean, how they were dressed?

18 Q. Did they have uniforms, weapons?

19 A. They had civilian clothes, and the weapons that I already

20 mentioned. I explained how the people were armed, very poorly. They wore

21 sneakers, jeans, whatever they had.

22 Q. Can you tell us the Dobrinja Battalion, when it was formed, what

23 was its area of responsibility in Dobrinja, in May 1992?

24 A. The Dobrinja village and the Airport Settlement.

25 Q. And what was your role in the Territorial Defence and in the

Page 12281

1 Dobrinja Battalion?

2 A. I didn't have any role.

3 Q. Were you a member of the TO?

4 A. Directly not. In a way, yes, but I wasn't actually a member of

5 the Dobrinja Territorial Defence.

6 Q. When you say that you were not a member of the Dobrinja TO, does

7 that mean that you were a member of some other TO?

8 A. Well, this group of patriots and sportsmen, the people who got

9 together in order to defend ourselves, we were covered by the IDs of the

10 Republican Military Police.

11 Q. So you are saying that you were a member of the group which was

12 operating as part of the republican police?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us whether this group that you belonged to, can you

15 tell us where this group was located in Dobrinja?

16 A. At the entrance, on the premises of the local commune.

17 Q. When you say "the local commune" can you be more specific? Which

18 local commune in Dobrinja you are talking about?

19 A. Dobrinja IIA.

20 Q. You, as a member of the police, can you tell us which weapons you

21 had as a police military unit?

22 A. Just like the others in Dobrinja, very poorly. We had handguns,

23 hunting rifles, perhaps we had one or two automatic rifles that people

24 bought with their own money.

25 Q. You say you were at the republican police level. Can you tell us

Page 12282

1 who was heading the police forces in Sarajevo at that time? The

2 republican police.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. When you say: "Kerim Loncarevic," are you saying that he was the

6 commander of the police for the whole of Sarajevo or was he at the

7 republican level?

8 A. Well, believe me, I really don't know.

9 Q. Are you saying that the police, that you were a member of, as the

10 member of the Dobrinja group, can you tell us whether it was under the

11 command of Kerim Loncarevic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know that Mr. Kerim Loncarevic wrote a book?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, can you tell us where was the

16 Military Police active in the region of Dobrinja in 1992, 1993, and 1994,

17 and where its command post was?

18 A. I didn't understand the question.

19 Q. The Military Police.

20 A. I said in the local commune.

21 Q. When you say 90, are you thinking of 1992 and do you also mean

22 1993 and 1994?

23 A. The formation of the Dobrinja Brigade included a company of the

24 Military Police.

25 Q. So are you saying that this Military Police company that you

Page 12283

1 belonged to was part of the 5th or the Dobrinja Brigade?

2 A. No, not all. Some people stayed -- some people didn't wish to

3 join the Dobrinja Brigade.

4 Q. When you say that not all people wanted to join the Dobrinja

5 Brigade, does that mean that the Military Police in Dobrinja divided?

6 A. Well, I can't say it divided. People simply left to join the

7 units that they were already in. They didn't wish to be members of the

8 brigade.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to show

10 a document to the witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist, Mr. Usher.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D159. D159.

13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you have before you a document from the 8th of

14 October, 1992, which was signed by Naim Beslagic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us, if states here "officer on duty, Beslagic, Naim"

17 can you tell us which brigade he belonged to?

18 A. The 1st Dobrinja Brigade.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the document that is before you, item two, paragraph

20 two states: "The formation of the 5th Mountain Brigade, it has been

21 completed except for the Military Police Platoon which does not want to be

22 placed under the command of this brigade. We will report to you about

23 this matter separately."

24 Is this true?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 12284

1 Q. Could you please tell us the platoon of the military police which

2 did not wish to join the 5th Motorised Brigade, where was that located?

3 A. I think that you are asking the wrong question. This is the

4 transformation of the brigade from the 1st Dobrinja to the 5th Motorised

5 Brigade and we really did have problems with people who had to accept the

6 military structure. But some of the people that we had problems with

7 remained in the Military Police of the 5th Dobrinja Brigade when we

8 explained to them what the duties were, what they needed to do, and so on.

9 Q. Is the reason why the platoon and later the battalion of the

10 Military Police did not become part of the 5th Dobrinja Brigade, the fact

11 that they wanted to operate independently?

12 A. When the 1st Dobrinja Brigade was formed on the 6th of July, 1992.

13 Q. Can you tell us where the Military Police headquarters in Dobrinja

14 was?

15 A. Until -- which date do you mean?

16 Q. After the 6th of July, 1992.

17 A. It is not a platoon, it is a company, and it was located across

18 the street from the command.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, when you said that you had -- you knew that Mr.

20 Loncarevic wrote a book, did you have any information about the operation

21 "Kisik," "oxygen?"

22 A. No.

23 Q. When I tell you that Mr. Kerim Loncarevic commanded this operation

24 and the operation entailed the bringing in of explosives in oxygen bottles

25 into a part of Sarajevo which was under the control of the TO and later

Page 12285

1 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would you accept this fact as true?

2 A. I don't know. I cannot accept something or not accept it, if I

3 don't know anything about it.

4 Q. Did you read Mr. Loncarevic's book?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you personally cooperate with Mr. Kerim Loncarevic?

7 A. Very little, up until the 6th of July, very little. From the 6th

8 of July, when I became the commander of the brigade, I had more problems

9 with him than anything else.

10 Q. When you say you had problems with him, can you tell us what kind

11 of problems you had with him?

12 A. That part of the Military Police which did not want to join the

13 battalion was located in a building in Dobrinja and they created problems

14 for us. There were fights, physical fights almost between them and our

15 men. So that we made several attempts to move them further away from the

16 command.

17 Q. When you say that they were physically separated from you, that

18 they were in another building, can you tell us where that part of the

19 Military Police was located that was under the command of Mr. Kerim

20 Loncarevic?

21 A. In the location which was -- which used to be the Turbo,

22 discotheque.

23 Q. Could you please tell us where that is in Dobrinja and which

24 street?

25 A. I don't know the street, but it was in Dobrinja II-A.

Page 12286

1 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us if the members of that group, of

2 Military Police, under the command of Kerim Loncarevic, which positions

3 did they hold in that part of the city?

4 A. What do you mean what positions?

5 Q. Did they have -- did they hold certain positions?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you tell us how they were dressed? And I am thinking about

8 uniforms and also what kind of weapons they had.

9 A. They were armed the same as the other people in Dobrinja were

10 armed, and they also had civilian clothes. With the establishment of the

11 1st Dobrinja Brigade, we established the area of responsibility of the

12 battalion and we did not permit anybody else to disrupt this hierarchy of

13 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. You said now in your answer that you established areas of

15 responsibility of the battalion?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you indicate these zones on the map that you already marked

18 for us, the areas of responsibility of battalions?

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to present

20 Mr. Hadzic the map so that he could indicate the battalion area of --

21 battalion area of responsibility. This is a document signed by Mr. Hadzic

22 on the 29th of October 2001.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It is document P3732.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am speaking about the area of

25 responsibility of the 1st Battalion, that is what I am pointing out now.

Page 12287

1 I repeat.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you are now indicating the line which you drew as the

4 demarcation line?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But I am asking you about the battalion area of responsibility.

7 A. That is precisely the area of responsibility of the battalion.

8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the military formation of a battalion, do you know

9 what the depth -- what the area of responsibility in depth of the

10 battalion is?

11 A. We did not study the military strategy in Dobrinja. Our

12 philosophy was the defence at any price and that is the only area of

13 responsibility. If this first line falls, if this front line falls,

14 everything else falls as well.

15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, now you are saying if the front line falls that

16 everything else falls. Can I can conclude from that that you had a second

17 line behind this front line?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic --

20 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, Ms. Pilipovic, the witness pointed at

21 the red line pre-marked on P3732 by him. The red line which is most at

22 the eastern side of the map, including a red line drawn to where it reads

23 "Dobrinja." Not in italics.

24 Please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, for the record,

Page 12288












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Page 12289

1 Mr. Hadzic in indicating this line stated that this was the area of

2 responsibility of the 1st Battalion.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Can you please tell us where the command post of the 1st Battalion

6 was?

7 A. Marked with the number five.

8 Q. Sir, can you tell us what the areas of responsibility of the 2nd,

9 3rd, and 4th Battalions were? And I am talking about 1992.

10 A. The zone, the area of responsibility, I am indicating that right

11 now.

12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, are you telling us that this line that you are

13 indicating as the area of responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Battalions,

14 that this was the area of responsibility throughout the entire period of

15 the conflict?

16 A. More or less, yes.

17 Q. If I put to you that a witness who testified before this Chamber

18 and who was a member of the 3rd Battalion, marked for us on this map the

19 area of responsibility as being that of the 3rd Battalion, what would you

20 say?

21 A. Well the numbers changed. It really depended. It varied. When

22 the brigade was reorganised, then the 1st Battalion became the 3rd or the

23 4th one. I mean, the numbers of designating the battalions changed, but

24 the troops were the same.

25 Q. On this map, you have marked for us the command post of the 3rd

Page 12290

1 Battalion, as you say, with number "3."

2 A. Number 3, no, number 6 was the command post of the 3rd Battalion,

3 and the area of the responsibility of the 3rd Battalion, of course.

4 Q. Are you telling us that these posts were permanent ones, the

5 command posts of the battalions which were part of the 5th Brigade?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If I tell you that this witness who was a member of the 3rd

8 Battalion and who testified before the Chamber on the 16th of April, 2002,

9 on page 7294 of the transcript, marked the command post of the 3rd

10 Battalion at the corner of Emile Zola Street, which is now called

11 Branilaca Dobrinje?

12 A. I don't know what street it is, I don't know about that, but the

13 battalion command posts, ever since the formation of the brigade did not

14 change location. It is the numbers of the battalions that changed. But

15 the locations themselves of the command posts remained the same until the

16 end of the war.

17 Q. Are you telling us that the 3rd Battalion did not have its command

18 post?

19 A. No, I didn't say that.

20 Q. I am referring to the Emile Zola Street?

21 A. I don't know that. I know that the 3rd Battalion command post was

22 located in Dobrinja V, at the spot that I marked with number 6.

23 Q. So you are telling us that the command post of the 3rd Battalion

24 was not located in the vicinity of Emile Zola Street?

25 A. Would you be so kind and tell me where the street is?

Page 12291

1 Q. Can you see the word "Dobrinja" written on the map? Behind or

2 above this red dot?

3 A. Yes. Do you mean here?

4 Q. Yes. Mr. Hadzic, I told you where have examined a witness who was

5 a member of the 3rd Battalion and who on page 7294 on the 16th of April

6 2002 indicated for us on the map the command post of the 3rd Battalion.

7 A. There was no command post here. Never. It's just that in this

8 street here, there was a building which housed the command of the Dobrinja

9 HVO.

10 Q. The Dobrinja HVO, you say. Are you referring to a battalion?

11 A. No. To an HVO company.

12 Q. What battalion did they belong to?

13 A. To the battalion that we have been discussing, that is the 1st

14 one, in the area of the responsibility of the 1st Battalion.

15 Q. You are showing us this street now on the map. Is this street now

16 called Branilaca Dobrinje?

17 A. Frankly, I don't know.

18 Q. The command post of the HVO company, in which building was the

19 located?

20 A. I am indicating this location on the map. This location used to

21 be a shop of the Poljo Oprema company and this is what I am indicating now

22 on the map.

23 Q. So your testimony is that the HVO company was located in the

24 former shop of the Poljo Oprema company?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12292

1 Q. Can you describe for us that building.

2 A. I think it was again an eight-storey building with several

3 entrances.

4 Q. Are you telling us then that it was a residential building in

5 Dobrinja, that people lived there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You told us that the HVO had their command post, company command

8 post which belonged to the 1st Battalion. Where did the 2nd, the 3rd and

9 the 4th Battalion have their command post?

10 A. In their respective areas of responsibility.

11 Q. When you say, "in their respective areas of responsibility," what

12 exactly do you mean? I mean, can you tell us if the soldiers of these

13 companies, battalions, took their food there? I mean, where exactly did

14 they take their meals? I am referring to the 1st Battalion.

15 A. At the beginning, it was very difficult. We had a central kitchen

16 from which we distributed food to the troops in cans. Later on,

17 battalions organised their own canteens where they prepared food and from

18 where they distributed food to their men at the front line.

19 Q. Speaking of this area of Dobrinja and the areas of responsibility

20 of the 1st and the 2nd Battalion, I should like to know where the kitchen

21 was for the members of these battalions? Was there a kitchen belonging to

22 this battalion?

23 A. No, the food was taken to the troops at the front line, at the

24 positions that they held, at the buildings that they held.

25 Q. Speaking of which, what kind of buildings were they?

Page 12293

1 A. They were partly destroyed and burnt down buildings whose

2 residents had been evicted long time ago. They were situated at the front

3 line. There were no civilians there, only soldiers.

4 Q. What was the distance between these buildings, that is, the

5 buildings where the soldiers were and the first buildings which were

6 behind?

7 A. Well, you can see everything on this diagram. This building, for

8 instance, was completely empty. The next one, across the street, well, if

9 the building was not completely destroyed, people still lived there.

10 Q. Yes, but can you tell us what the distance between the two was,

11 since you were a local resident?

12 A. 10 or 15 metres. I mean, the width of a street.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzic.

14 Yesterday, you told us about atomic shelters. How many such

15 shelters were they?

16 A. There were three such shelters which were independent, so to

17 speak. And a number of other shelters which were located in the basements

18 of various buildings especially in settlements A and B. Special nuclear

19 shelters were built in Dobrinja V.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

21 the Defence would like the witness to mark with a black felt-tip pen, the

22 locations of these shelter.

23 MR. STAMP: I recommend that we use a thinner finer --

24 JUDGE ORIE: If we have a thinner black marker, we --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Dobrinja V there was one atomic

Page 12294

1 shelter here.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you please circle the location and mark it with number "1."

4 JUDGE ORIE: We have already a lot of numbers on it. So

5 perhaps --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Then, perhaps we could use Roman

7 numerals.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, it is now already done. It is "1" in a circle.

9 So, if we perhaps do all atomic shelters numbers in circles.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, would you please mark other atomic shelters and circle

12 them.

13 A. Do you want me to mark those that were located in various

14 buildings?

15 Q. Yes, please.

16 A. There were seven in total, as far as I know.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, during the conflict, who used these atomic shelters?

18 A. No one in Dobrinja V, that is no one used the atomic shelter in

19 Dobrinja V.

20 Q. Can you mark that area for us, please? What about the others,

21 two, three, and four?

22 A. Number two was an out-patient clinic which provided medical

23 assistance to the local residents. It was the Civilian Protection that

24 used these premises for initial treatment of the victims of the shelling

25 and the distribution of the humanitarian aid.

Page 12295

1 Q. What about number three?

2 A. The same as number two. It was the civilian protection

3 organisation that used it for storing food. Religious facility was also

4 located there, and the youth club.

5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you told us about atomic shelter number three now and

6 you have marked it on the map. But can you also indicate the location of

7 the playground? Is it indicated on the map?

8 A. No, it is not indicated on the map, but the children played on the

9 parking lot here.

10 Q. Can you please mark the spot with an "X."

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record, the

12 Defence would like to point out that the plateau marked with an "X" was

13 the one where this football match was played, whereas the atomic shelter

14 marked with number three was nearby, parallel to the playground marked

15 with an "X."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, that is comment. It is marked on the

17 map. We all have the maps. We can see whether it is far away or nearby.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Hadzic, atomic shelter number four?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us about that one, please.

23 A. It was very seldom used at the beginning as a shelter from the

24 shelling. It used to be -- it was used for the humanitarian aid, but at

25 one point in time it became flooded. So it was no longer used.

Page 12296

1 Q. Number five?

2 A. Well, it was used by the local residents when the warning signal

3 was given. In cases of shelling, for instance, they would go down to the

4 basement to the shelter.

5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, members of the brigade under your command, did they

6 ever use atomic shelters?

7 A. No never.

8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I tell you that we heard a witness here before this

9 Chamber, a witness who participated in this football match, on page 6.643

10 of the transcript, the witness who was heard on the 4th of April, 1992, I

11 am referring to Mr. Ismet Fazlic. Questioned by the Defence on page 6643

12 as to his knowledge about the existence of any barracks in Dobrinja where

13 members of the local brigade were quartered, he replied on 6.644, lines

14 two to six, that there were no barracks in Dobrinja, only atomic shelters.

15 There were four atomic shelters.

16 In Dobrinja III-A and B, because those were new buildings, there

17 were atomic shelters which could accommodate up to 3.000 people, and it

18 was in those atomic shelters that the headquarters of the army were

19 located.

20 Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us what the truth is?

21 A. Well, Madam, this is not true. I should know where my soldiers

22 were.

23 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you marked for us the line of the 1st Battalion on

24 this map. Mr. Ismet Fazlic on page 6672 lines, 2 to 4, stated the

25 following: "I am only familiar with the 1st Battalion. It was a shelter,

Page 12297

1 an atomic shelter, located at the square called Djeca Dobrinja."

2 A. That is not true. I state authoritatively, that this is not true.

3 Perhaps soldiers went into those shelters by mistake or when they were

4 off-duty, where there was perhaps a club or something like that. But

5 there were no soldiers there. They didn't sleep there, they didn't spend

6 time there or anything like that.

7 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you are telling us that Mr. Ismet Fazlic who was heard

8 here is not speaking the truth --

9 MR. STAMP: If my learned friend could give us a reference to the

10 part she quoted and then please proceed. A page reference.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand what Ms. Pilipovic was referring to

12 page 6672, is that correct? And then lines two to four. My problem is

13 that --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- I do not see the words you just mentioned, but --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters do not have the

17 transcript.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 6671, lines 24, and 25. Does he

19 know where the command posts are of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Battalions

20 of the 5th Motorised Brigade and the answers is on page 6672, lines two to

21 four.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I read on page 6672 lines two to four, "abbreviation

23 CZ" and Mr. Piletta-Zanin, interpretation, "yes, Mr. President,

24 abbreviation CZ stands for..." That is what I read.

25 MR. STAMP: Maybe counsel is referring to the B/C/S version.

Page 12298

1 JUDGE ORIE: The English version says something different.

2 MR. STAMP: French, I beg your pardon.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you said 6672

4 and I think that Ms. Pilipovic said 6671. But I don't know whether you

5 said 66 --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic said 6671 for the question and 6672 for

7 the answer. That is, at least, how it is translated.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes Your Honour. 6671, lines, and

9 25. Whether the witness knows whether the command posts of the 1st, 2nd,

10 3rd and 4th Battalions of the 5th Motorised Brigade are and the answer is

11 on page 6672.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on the lines indicated by you Ms. Pilipovic, it

13 is unfortunately for everyone, it is myself who is speaking, so that could

14 not be the question I take it. Could you perhaps try to clarify on the --

15 perhaps that the pages have changed since then. But, perhaps, during the

16 break, try to find the location. Perhaps by using "search" functions or

17 to use specific words that we could use on the same day to find the

18 location.

19 Perhaps Ms. Pilipovic, it would be time for a break anyhow. We

20 will adjourn --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- Until 10 minutes to 6.00. I should say five

23 minutes to 6.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

Page 12299












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12300

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any specific reason why the Prosecution has

2 not yet arrived? No. I am not asking the Defence for an explanation.

3 Perhaps someone else would know.

4 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the break, I

6 checked the transcript before the end of the break and it is 6669, so it

7 is the transcript of the 4th of April, 2002. The question is: Does he

8 know where the command posts of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th battalions are and

9 the response is on page 6670, lines two to five. "I don't know. I only

10 know about the 1st Battalion, that was on the atomic shelter on the square

11 known as Djeca Dobrinja. I don't know about the others. This was a

12 military secret."

13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, is it true that the command post of the 1st Battalion

14 was in the nuclear shelter?

15 A. No, it is not.

16 Q. Mr. Hadzic, so you are saying that Mr. Ismet Fazlic is not telling

17 the truth?

18 A. That is right.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the Defence would like to show you document D159.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 160.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you have a document before you from the 1st of

23 November 1992, the 5th Mountain Brigade of Dobrinja?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the second page, is it your signature, your first and last

Page 12301

1 name?

2 A. It is not my signature. It is my name and my surname, but it is

3 not my signature.

4 Q. Do you recognise the signature? Who signed for you?

5 A. Yes, it is my deputy. Bicej.

6 Q. Mr. Hadzic, according to this document which is in the form of an

7 order, does it start with the words: "Based on the order of the command

8 of the 1st Corps of the 22nd of October 1992 and because of forthcoming

9 combat activities in order to increase combat readiness of the 5th

10 Dobrinja Mountain Brigade I order: One, immediately start with the

11 formation of the reconnaissance sabotage platoon for the 5th Mountain

12 Brigade Dobrinja." Is that what the states?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Under item two, does it state the number, "the strength of 25 to

15 30 men must be subject of priority and they should be armed with a full

16 combat set of equipment." And under three it says "the platoon will be

17 stationed in the facilities of Bosna Folklor where they will be

18 accommodated in a barracks and the meals would be organised in the kitchen

19 of the brigade command."

20 Mr. Hadzic, is it true what the states here in this document?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you indicate to us on the map where the premise where the

23 reconnaissance sabotage platoon was located? The Bosna Folklor.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Mr. Hadzic is

25 marking the line or indicating the line vertically below the numbers two

Page 12302

1 and three where the company -- where the premises of Bosna Folklor were,

2 where this platoon was located.

3 Q. Can you tell us the name of the street, Mr. Hadzic?

4 A. I think it was the Oktobarske Revolucije Street.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, this is a bit confusing because below

6 two and three is upwards from the original position of this map. So, I

7 would say that orienting ourselves on the ERN number in red on the map, it

8 is the building up to the right, almost vertically to the numbers two and

9 three.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

11 perhaps Mr. Hadzic can circle this building and mark it with the letter

12 "b" for Bosna Folklor.

13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, based on this order, would you agree with me that you

14 were obliged to carry out the orders of your superior command, the command

15 of the 1st Corps?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Mr. Hadzic, you told us during the examination-in-chief yesterday

19 that you received only a couple of mortars in 1993. Did I understand you

20 properly?

21 A. Yes. I said that at the end of 1993, we received one mortar of

22 87-millimetre calibre.

23 Q. What other heavy weapons did the 5th Motorised Brigade have? I am

24 thinking about heavy weapons.

25 A. We practically didn't have any in Dobrinja.

Page 12303

1 MR. STAMP: Before the next question is asked I just wonder if

2 there could be a clarification of the answer to the previous question. I

3 have here "87-millimetre mortar." If perhaps that could be clarified.


5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it is a

6 mistake in the transcript. I said 82.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received a mortar of a calibre

8 81-millimetres at the end of 1993.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. At the end of 1993. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you about single or plural. If we look at

12 the testimony of yesterday, I see we received an 81-millimetre mortar and

13 that is at the end of 1993. And then later on we are talking about the

14 plural of 60-millimetre mortars, mortars with an "s." Because now we are

15 dealing with the plural for the 81-millimetre which is different from what

16 the testimony was. Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, could you please tell us, regarding 1993, which

19 battalion received this mortar?

20 A. The mortar didn't belong to any battalion. The staff units, units

21 had them -- had it, but actually it was used in order to train the men.

22 Q. So you are saying that besides that one mortar that you received

23 at the end of 1993, and except for the weapons that you already mentioned,

24 the guns, the rifles, you didn't have any other weapons?

25 A. Well, during the course of 1992, we had some anti-armour weapons.

Page 12304

1 Q. When you say "anti-armour equipment" can you be a little more

2 specific?

3 A. I think we had two hand-held mortars, one recoil-less cannon and

4 one Osa.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

6 like to show Mr. Hadzic a document.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

8 THE REGISTRAR: D161. D161.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it is 161. I had heard

10 "166."

11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, is this a document of the command of the 5th Motorised

12 Brigade of the 13th of July, 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is this a document that you signed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is this a document in the form of an order that you issued?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Underneath the word "I order" does it say "while requesting

19 artillery firing support from the motorised battalion exclusively used the

20 map with the chief of artillery with marked targets when you received for

21 usage."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us, who was the chief of artillery in the command of

24 the 5th Motorised Brigade?

25 A. I can't remember exactly who it was.

Page 12305

1 Q. Can you tell us where the artillery of the 5th Motorised Brigade

2 was deployed?

3 A. Well, I told you we didn't have any artillery.

4 Q. Who did you send this order to, the order for artillery support?

5 A. To the command of the 1st Corps, which had its mortar batteries

6 nearby and which were used as part of the combat activities in order to

7 protect the area of responsibility of our brigade.

8 Q. When you say that the corps command had positions nearby, could

9 you indicate on the map where these positions were?

10 A. Well, I cannot indicate them exactly, but they were on the other

11 side of Mojmilo.

12 Q. When you say, "on the other side of Mojmilo," could you indicate

13 on the map where the positions of the BH Army were on Mojmilo?

14 A. Along the edge of the Mojmilo hill.

15 Q. But we have a map, sir, so if you would kindly indicate that on

16 the map where you marked, where the positions of the 1st Corps artillery

17 were.

18 A. I don't know the exact location of those positions, but I know

19 that they were on the other side of Mojmilo hill. Mojmilo hill is here,

20 so it was these locations somewhere below the hill.

21 Q. For the transcript, Mr. Hadzic, could you please point those

22 positions again? Could you draw a black line?

23 A. Well, Madam, I cannot mark them exactly with a line, because I

24 don't know exactly where they were. These positions were behind Mojmilo

25 hill.

Page 12306

1 Q. Would you accept if I were to tell you that according to you,

2 these positions were between the words Mojmilo or Novi Grad or even more

3 south, to the south, in relation to these words?

4 A. Well, I cannot really tell on this map. I can't tell exactly, but

5 they were somewhere here.

6 Q. When you say that these positions were on the other side of

7 Mojmilo, they were facing which part of the city?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You said "the other side of Mojmilo." So are you saying that it

10 was on the side of Mojmilo which faced Dobrinja and was your battalion on

11 that side?

12 A. What do you mean, "our battalion"?

13 Q. The 5th Motorised. Who held the positions that looked on

14 Dobrinja, on Mojmilo hill.

15 A. This was not held by our brigade, this was held by the next

16 brigade, the 101st.

17 Q. So you are telling us that the positions of the 101st Motorised

18 Brigade were in the area of Mojmilo hill?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

21 like to show Mr. Hadzic another document, number 162.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May the usher assist you. Ms. Pilipovic, may I

23 indicates that there are 25 minutes left. Do I see that some of the

24 documents have been marked by a marker in colour and others not?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise.

Page 12307

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Might even have missed it.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a document for my use.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. President, I think that page 68, line 14

5 is a question and line 16 is the answer.


7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, is this a document from the 2nd of the October, 1993?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. On page 2 of that document, do we have the signature of Zajko

11 Vatrenjak?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was that the commander -- assistant commander for intelligence

14 duties of the 2nd Motorised Brigade?

15 A. He was the deputy --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down and make a

17 pause between question and answer, because we are not sure.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic, you are speaking the same language as

19 Ms. Pilipovic does, and the interpreters have some difficulties in

20 following you, if you make no pause between question and answer. So may I

21 invite you to make just a small pause.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Hadzic, does it state in this document on page 3 of the

24 document, paragraph 2, "our first line is positioned"? Do you see that

25 part?

Page 12308

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. "On the direction Mojmilo hill, Serdarevic house, Partizanska

3 Olimpijade Street, Avde Cuka Street, Salvadora Allende Street, forest

4 behind garage in Dobrinja IV, school Dusan Pajic-Dasic." Is this true

5 that the line was there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Which battalion held this line?

8 A. The 1st.

9 Q. Does it say that the first line is well fortified and has

10 machine-gun nests and bunkers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us these machine-gun nests, where were they located,

13 in which buildings?

14 A. Around the line of separation.

15 Q. How many of these nests were there?

16 A. Not many.

17 Q. Not many, what do you mean? Can you tell us approximately how

18 many?

19 A. Three to four.

20 Q. Do we read then the line is connected with fortifications which

21 are safe for quick transfer of personnel to the first line?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I suggest the following disposition of our forces in case of

24 enemies attack. Anti-armour weapons should be deployed in the following

25 way: In the trench nearby Serdarevic house, two anti-armour weapons. It

Page 12309

1 says here "anti-armour", what kind of weapons were they?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said? We

3 didn't get it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please repeat your answer, Mr. Hadzic, since the

5 interpreters could not hear it.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is merely a suggestion

7 regarding the deployment.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Yes, but, Mr. Hadzic, on page one of this document, do we read:

10 "Intelligence report on the deployment and strength of enemy forces."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Vatrenjak, is he hereby reporting on the whereabouts of the

13 lines in question and is he saying that the troops of the 5th Motorised

14 Brigade should be deployed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can we then read: "Two anti-armour weapons, one anti-armour

17 weapon in Partizanska Olimpijade Street." Can we read this in this

18 document?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we also read that one anti-armour weapon should be deployed

21 in Salvador Allende Street?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And further down can we read that the three anti-armour weapons

24 should be deployed in Dusan Dasic school?

25 A. Well yes, that is what he writes.

Page 12310












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12311

1 Q. You told us in 1992, you had two hand-held launchers, one cannon

2 and one Osa, can you tell where this gun was positioned?

3 A. It was positioned along this axis, together with this Osa that we

4 had.

5 Q. What about these two handheld launchers.

6 A. The 1st Battalion had one and the 3rd Battalion had the other.

7 Q. Are you telling us, therefore, Mr. Hadzic, apart from the weapons

8 that I just indicated to you, the 5th Motorised Brigade did not have any

9 other weapons?

10 A. Yes. Apart from these, no.

11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, what weapons were used to -- what weapons were used by

12 your battalion which was deployed facing Nedzarici?

13 A. Infantry weapons, and they had also one hand-held launcher.

14 Q. Where was it?

15 A. Well, it changed location according to the need, but we only had

16 very few shells for this launcher. The same went for the recoil-less gun

17 that we had.

18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, so far we have spoken about the so-called heavy

19 weapons. Can you now tell us whether there were any snipers in your

20 brigade?

21 A. No. At the beginning of the war, we didn't have means or people

22 for that. With further reorganisation of the units, we had the position

23 which we called "marksman." Those were the people who were deployed at

24 the front line of the defence.

25 Q. You said that there were no snipers in the 5th Motorised Brigade.

Page 12312

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Azem Basic. Does the name ring a bell?

4 A. No, never heard of that name.

5 Q. If I put to you that he was one of the snipers that were active in

6 Dobrinja under your control, what would you say?

7 A. No, never. I don't know a person by that name.

8 Q. As regards the positions near the school in Dobrinja, that is the

9 school that we identified and in respect of which you said that the

10 positions of the 1st Battalion were located, from these positions, were

11 any snipers active towards Lukavica?

12 A. We were not located at the school. We were located in the

13 trenches around the school.

14 Q. But who was positioned in the school building?

15 A. No one. It was in such a state that it was impossible to have

16 anyone positioned there.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, on the 30th of May and the 3rd of June of this year, a

18 member of the United Nations was heard by this Chamber. His name is Roy

19 Thomas, he had previously given a statement to the OTP investigators on

20 the 15th of April, 1998. In that statement, on page eight of the Serb

21 version of the statement, paragraph four, he declared the following: "I

22 managed to enter one of these locations, the school in Dobrinja, from

23 where the BH Army was able to cover the road to the VRS barracks in

24 Lukavica. This was right across the street from the church in Dobrinja.

25 When I entered the Bosnian location, I found police officers there who

Page 12313

1 appeared very professional and had good equipment."

2 Are you aware of the fact that police officers who had been

3 trained as snipers were using the school in Dobrinja for this purpose?

4 A. No, I am not.

5 Q. How close were positions of your battalion to the school?

6 A. We were four to five metres away from the school building.

7 Q. How often did you go -- did you visit these positions?

8 A. I was wounded in 1993. I had splinters for quite a while during

9 that period of time and moved with difficulty. I had to walk on crutches,

10 so I very rarely ventured all the way to those positions.

11 Q. You were wounded from December until February?

12 A. Yes, but I was discharged for home treatment, after which I

13 underwent a number of surgeries.

14 Q. Mr. Hadzic --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speakers please slow down.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you were asked to slow down.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Who replaced you during that period of time?

19 A. My deputy, the Deputy Commander, that is.

20 Q. Your deputy, did he inform you of the fact that there were snipers

21 positioned in the school in Dobrinja?

22 A. No, he did not.

23 Q. Did he -- did the battalion commander notify you of this fact?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So, while you were the commander, you were never made aware of the

Page 12314

1 fact that there was snipers in the school in Dobrinja?

2 A. No. Never.

3 Q. What was your cooperation with the members of UNPROFOR like? How

4 well did you cooperate with them?

5 A. Very well, it was excellent.

6 JUDGE ORIE: In order to take care that you do not go too quickly,

7 would you please wait until the text stops moving. Yes, please proceed.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Madam Pilipovic also wait for the

9 interpretation, please.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I understood, Ms. Pilipovic, that you would take

11 notice of this observation as well. Yes.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, my question concerned your cooperation with UNPROFOR

14 and you said that you had very good, excellent, cooperation with them.

15 Members of UNPROFOR, did they ever confront you with the activity of the

16 snipers located in the Dobrinja school at any of those meetings?

17 A. No. At least not me, personally.

18 Q. Speaking of the meetings that you had with members of UNPROFOR,

19 did you ever launch a protest with the members of UNPROFOR?

20 A. Concerning what?

21 Q. Concerning the activity of Serb snipers, as you stated?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us when please, in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

24 A. Well, all of these years, in 1992, 1993, and 1994, ever since they

25 were stationed in the area of the airport and started visiting Dobrinja.

Page 12315

1 Q. Did representatives of UNPROFOR ever make you aware of the fact

2 that they had information that snipers were active from the positions held

3 by the 5th Motorised Brigade?

4 A. No they didn't say any such thing to me.

5 Q. So you are telling us that you are not aware of an

6 sniping -- snipers' nest in the school in Dobrinja?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If I showed you the witness statement of an UN military observer

9 for Sarajevo who declared that he was the one who had uncovered this

10 sniper, would you agree with my assertion?

11 A. Well, it is possible that the gentleman in question informed the

12 police of that fact, because the police had their area of responsibility

13 there as well.

14 Q. So the police had their area of responsibility in that part?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you indicate for us specifically where this area was?

17 A. Part of the police force was located in this building here behind

18 the school, and some were positioned in a nearby building across the

19 street.

20 Q. Mr. Hadzic, have you now indicated for us the positions of the

21 police as being in the same buildings that you used?

22 A. Yes. A part of this building communications one and two was held

23 by them.

24 Q. Under whose command was the police which was active in this zone

25 together with you?

Page 12316

1 A. Under Mr. Vikic's command.

2 Q. Are you telling us that in the area of responsibility of your

3 battalion, which, that is the 1st and the 2nd Battalion, that there was

4 also police officer which was active under the command of Mr. Vikic? I

5 should like to know in what other parts of Dobrinja was this police force

6 under Vikic's command active?

7 A. Only in these areas.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you know that the Prosecution asked

9 for 20 minutes for procedural issues or quarter of an hour. Time for

10 cross-examination still have a couple of minutes left. What --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can my colleague and

12 I check, because we believe that the Prosecution took two and a half

13 hours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I will tell you. I will ask the -- is that true?

15 Then, my computing was not correct, and you have more time. Nevertheless,

16 we would like to stop -- I will check it, but the Registrar confirms that

17 yesterday, I think --

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: We will check whether the -- more in detail whether

20 the Prosecution took two and a half hours. There are some -- there never

21 is any disagreement between the Presiding Judge and the Registrar, but now

22 there is. But we will figure that out. Could you please conclude for

23 today in a couple of minutes. Yes.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, when you said that the Military Police under the

Page 12317

1 command of Vikic acted from these positions, was that the Military Police

2 that included also Mr. Kerim Loncarevic in Dobrinja?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Could you please tell us where the command post of the Military

5 Police was located, the Military Police that was on the positions from

6 where you also operated?

7 A. Madam, that was not the Military Police. That was a special

8 police unit, a special MUP unit, not the Military Police.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Where was it located?

11 A. At the edge of this building.

12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us, this place that you are indicating,

13 is that the command post of the special police and can you tell us what

14 street that is?

15 A. Before the war, that street was called the Mitsubishi Avenue.

16 Q. Is that Dobrinja?

17 A. Yes, Dobrinja IIB.

18 Q. Can you tell us, this building where the special police was

19 located, what kind of a building was that?

20 A. It was a pretty large building with several entrances and several

21 floors. They were deployed in the -- it was a salon before the war.

22 Q. Are you saying that in the apartments in that building that the

23 citizens of Dobrinja lived there?

24 A. Yes that's right.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

Page 12318

1 like to stop here and we would like to complete our cross-examination

2 tomorrow.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think I made a mistake. I think you still

4 have an hour left. Mr. Hadzic, we have to deal with a few procedural

5 issues that will take approximately a quarter of an hour. Therefore, you

6 will be excused for the moment. May I remind you not to speak with anyone

7 about your testimony given in this court and we hope to see you back

8 tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom. Yes.

9 Mr. Usher, can you please escort Mr. Hadzic out of the courtroom.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Piletta-Zanin.


13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must say that

14 I will need five minutes in order to point out some interpretation

15 problems for all three booths. So I would kindly ask Mr. Ierace to be

16 quite brief, because we really mustn't work longer than 7.00.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We will see what we can do.

18 Mr. Ierace, you asked and could you please be brief, since

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin needs a bit more time than usual for the translation

20 issues.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will, Mr. President. The issue that I seek to

22 raise relates to the information on the sniping and shelling maps that

23 were before the Trial Chamber earlier this week.

24 Mr. President, in particular, the evidence as to the plotting of

25 the sites where the victims to the various scheduled incidents were at the

Page 12319

1 time of the impact by the bullet or shell; and secondly, the indications

2 on those maps as to the source of fire.

3 Mr. President, the evidence before the Trial Chamber at the moment

4 in relation to those two classes of information, essentially comes down to

5 eyewitness evidence in the form of direct evidence from the witness box,

6 as well as through the various videos and photographs that have been

7 tendered. And secondly, a statement by Zoran Lesic which is an exhibit

8 before the Trial Chamber being P3653.

9 I have in mind the following procedure --

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, is that the statement you

11 tendered and which I found on my desk and all the other members of the

12 Chamber as well today, the 92 bis statement or --

13 MR. IERACE: No, that was the statement tendered through him --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, when he testified, yes.

15 MR. IERACE: In February. The evidence more particularly

16 contained in that statement, to the extent it is a reproduction of GPS

17 positions on the videotapes, is some form of evidence of those positions.

18 Mr. President, the process that I have in mind in order to

19 hopefully render the various sites plotted on the map as admissible is as

20 follows: To call Zoran Lesic to give evidence to the effect that he has

21 consulted the maps which have been tendered, in particular, the sites

22 indicated by the red dots, that is, the sites where the victims were shot.

23 You will recall that Mr. Lesic has effectively given evidence that

24 he was present on each of the occasions that surviving victims and

25 eyewitnesses were videoed, and, therefore, he is in a position to confirm

Page 12320

1 the sites on the maps. You may also recall that he gave evidence that he

2 lived in Sarajevo and is familiar with the city and that, in my respectful

3 submission could be done properly in a matter of minutes.

4 I would submit that it is not necessary for this witness to have

5 blank maps and drawing on his memory and knowledge to indicate on those

6 blank maps where those sites were. Rather, I would respectfully submit

7 that it would be entirely acceptable for him in these circumstances to

8 simply confirm that the indicated positions on the maps of where the

9 victims were is, in fact, correct. I make that submission against the

10 background that it has not been suggested to any witness that they were

11 shot in a different location to which that appears on the video. The

12 videos themselves and the electronic photographs are, of course, another

13 way in which the evidence already tendered establishes those sites, but,

14 of course, that would require the Trial Chamber to go to Sarajevo and

15 locate the sites in that fashion.

16 So, Mr. President, that is the first proposal that I make. As to

17 when that could happen, it so happens that because we have now finished

18 the evidence of Ewa Tabeau, that we have a light day on Monday. The

19 latest information we have provided to the Defence and copied to the Trial

20 Chamber has only one witness set down for Monday, the 29th of July, that's

21 Faris Gavran Kapetanovic, choose evidence is of course limited in the

22 decision to a total of less than one hour.

23 Mr. President, there is a second issue. It transpires that the

24 GPS readings in the statement of Zoran Lesic are incorrect. The primary

25 explanation for that is the handheld GPS machine that was used to take

Page 12321












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12322

1 those readings had not been calibrated in the required manner. It seems

2 that when one takes GPS readings, one must first place into the machine

3 information which pertains to the particular part of the earth surface

4 from which readings are sought. That information is contained on standard

5 maps.

6 I propose to, also on Monday, recall Richard Philipps to give

7 short evidence to that effect and also to the effect that he has made the

8 appropriate calibration modification to the figures provided in the

9 statement of Zoran Lesic, that is, Exhibit P3653. And in all but, I

10 think, two cases, one then has the correct GPS reading. One might wonder

11 what the significance is of having correct GPS readings at this stage.

12 The relevance is should there be a certain exercise engaged in, I don't go

13 into it any further, that material could be of assistance. He will also

14 given an explanation, as will Zoran Lesic, as to some other corrections

15 which have to be made to the figures in the statement. Briefly, some of

16 the figures do not accurately reproduce the GPS readings which are on the

17 video, a minor matter.

18 So, Mr. President, that is the issue which I wish to alert you to.

19 Essentially I seek leave to recall Zoran Lesic and Richard Philipps. I

20 note that a 92 bis motion was filed. I don't go into that in any further

21 detail, except to say that the judgment of the Trial Chamber in relation

22 to the motion may be relevant to the decision to recall him. In other

23 words it may be convenient for a second reason that he is recalled.

24 Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Mr. President, there is one other matter. Yesterday, you said to

Page 12323

1 me that for the reasons that one of the 92 bis statements is not to be

2 tendered, we may not want to recall that witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: At least that was the unsaid underlying idea of

4 inform the Prosecution on the reason why the 92 bis statement was -- would

5 not be admitted in view of this witness.

6 MR. IERACE: Yes Mr. President. The motion which accompanied the

7 92 bis statement did indeed refer to 15 certificates, however, there are a

8 number of other certificates which we would wish to tender through that

9 witness and which are apparent in the motion. The relevance of those

10 certificates is that it will assist the Trial Chamber with the ages and

11 the sex of the number of victims of shelling incidents in particular,

12 shelling incident number one, which may indeed be particularly relevant at

13 a later point.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We just indicated this yesterday in order to inform

15 you about the reasons why the Chamber decided not to admit the statement

16 of the witness Arifagic, I think --

17 MR. IERACE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, if you have got other reasons. On the

19 other hand, I must say and I am quite sure that the other Judges in this

20 Chamber have heard -- the Chamber have heard very frequently over the last

21 10 minutes the words"not accurate, not accurately" it states 15 documents,

22 but it might be different. Especially at the end of the case where it

23 makes it all quite complicated, the matters we are confronted with at this

24 moment, and of course, I include the whole Kovacs issue in that as well.

25 But I do understand what -- that you say that the Prosecution

Page 12324

1 might call the witness Arifagic anyhow.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, those additional documents are, in

3 fact, included in the motion filed on the 6th of June.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we have to check. We try to trace all

5 the documents and on the basis of that we -- I informed you yesterday

6 about the reason why the -- why the Chamber decided not to admit the 92

7 bis statement. We will reconsider it tomorrow and work further on it and

8 tell you.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Ms. Pilipovic, any quick response?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No response?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Impossible today. But we will

15 have some tomorrow morning with your permission. They took 10 minutes to

16 explain to us their futuristic view of the proceedings in the future. I

17 think I need four minutes for my own problems and then tomorrow morning,

18 with your permission we will explain what our position is in greater

19 detail.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is, that we do not sit tomorrow morning.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then tomorrow afternoon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the other hand, we might be willing to

23 consider at least part of the questions tomorrow morning. So if you

24 could -- if the interpreters would grant us five minutes extra, at least

25 give us some short response --

Page 12325












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12326

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- An idea --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With pleasure. I suggest the

4 following, Mr. President: We will give you a brief answer and that a

5 written answer will follow in greater detail this evening so that you can

6 work on it tomorrow morning.

7 I think the problem is as follows: This is purely -- this is pure

8 science fiction. We have been told today that one can count on that, that

9 we can rely on it, but everything is false. Then if everything is false

10 everything should be rejected in its entirety. As regards the

11 reappearance of witness Lesic there was plenty opportunity to ask

12 technical questions of this witness, and there was also ample opportunity

13 to ask specific questions about specific incidents and specific events.

14 Why are we proceeding now this manner, in violation of the Rules? If we

15 have to bring back the witness, then the Rules will be violated. It is

16 quite evident. If we do this now, as you have indicated at the end of the

17 proceedings, it will be contradictory to the interest of the Defence, not

18 only contradictory to the interest but to the rights of the Defence. If

19 GPS were a beautiful, reliable system, then how everything can be wrong.

20 I think I have discussed it -- addressed the issue enough and the Defence

21 cannot accept the proposal.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I must say that and the Chamber is very grateful to

23 the Defence that they with willing to put in more detail their thoughts on

24 paper so that we can read it tomorrow morning. That really assists us

25 greatly and --

Page 12327

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will do that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... than those who

3 are assisting us. We will consider the matters and we will consider how

4 important this whole GPS is for the Chamber at this very moment.

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you needed a couple of minutes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very quick. So each

7 time I will give the page and the line number. And then I will state what

8 I think. So page 12, line 9, on several occasions it was 92, then 13, 15

9 we said one booth. So from the French booth it was "hospitals" the

10 plural. Then page 17, line -- so D25 not it is not 25, it is D21. Page 37

11 line 23, I heard in the Serbian text that the witness said "I couldn't say

12 that," which is not the same as "I don't know." So there is a difference.

13 "Overlooks" should be translated differently. On page 41, line

14 15, I think I heard the witness say "all ethnicities" which was not

15 correctly interpreted as various ethnicities.

16 50 something page, line 10, which said that the republican police

17 is not the same as the Military Police. Page 51, line 13, italics, it

18 should be Dobrinja written in italics. So in the French booth, the

19 meaning wasn't conveyed.

20 And then page 51, 23, two witness answers are missing as well as

21 one answer by the Defence. The witness intervened. I think he said in

22 Serbian "buildings immediately next to" while the response of the Defence

23 was "yes, yes" on page 74.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

Page 12328

1 MR. IERACE: The English booth just ask that Mr. Piletta-Zanin

2 slow down.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear that. I heard some -- yes, would you

4 please -- I think if you do it too quickly and you have to repeat it, that

5 takes even more time than doing it a bit more slowly.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologises Page 74 for the

7 French booth,"the road to the church" and not "to church". Page 76, line

8 10, I think the witness added "no, no, no" but I didn't hear the rest. I

9 think it can by found in the transcript. Page 76, line 24, I think that

10 the words "preko ceste" were not interpreted or the interpretation was an

11 erroneous one, and I think that would be it for today.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I have one remark to make. First, the Chamber has

13 considered the matter when a witness list and a list of exhibits should be

14 presented. The Defence is required to present a provisional witness list

15 and a provisional exhibit list immediately after the close of the

16 Prosecution's case. That would enable at least the Prosecution to start

17 working on it during the recess. So that would be presumably the 2nd of

18 August, by the end of the day. And then tomorrow morning, I would like to

19 start in closed session to hear the answer on the question which is still

20 a confidential issue, a question that has been put to the Defence last

21 Friday and on which the Chamber would like to have an answer.

22 Is it clear enough for you? Otherwise we should have -- there was

23 a question about whether under certain special circumstances the position

24 of the Defence would remain the same or not?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. My colleague is nodding

Page 12329

1 and I am nodding too.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we will tomorrow perhaps start in closed

3 session just for one or two minutes. We will adjourn until tomorrow at a

4 quarter past 2.00.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 7.07 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

7 the 25th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.