Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12514

1 Monday, 29 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start, I would like to inform the parties

10 that there is a problem with the new installed version of LiveNote.

11 Version 8 seems to create some problems. I don't know what problems yet.

12 The only way of solving it would have been to reinstall Version 7.

13 Version 8 is now installed. That would have taken two hours and the

14 Chamber has decided that it should be done somewhere today or tomorrow,

15 but not at this very moment.

16 Apart from that, may I ask the Prosecution, what time was

17 Mr. Higgs scheduled to leave?

18 MR. IERACE: Good morning Mr. President. There is -- I am not

19 aware of a specific time. There is a task that he was anxious to do in

20 the UK, that is as much as I know. So my thinking was, if he finished

21 here relatively early, then he still had a possibility of getting a

22 flight back to London and doing whatever that task is.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So, would that mean, since Mr. Piletta-Zanin is not

24 there, that if he would be here at 1.00 -- I still have to ask the Madam

25 Registrar how much time is still available for cross-examination. It is

Page 12515

1 my recollection that it was a bit more than one hour.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I am not quite sure about that. So that would mean

4 that, Ms. Pilipovic, I would say that if you would conclude the

5 cross-examination not later than 12.00 then if Mr. Piletta-Zanin would

6 arrive at 10.00 as indicated, then you would have until 12.00, you would

7 have one hour and a half. I think that should do. If that is not

8 enough, it is up to you to indicate that you would like to start already

9 with the continuation of the cross-examination.

10 Then I take it that the Prosecution is ready to call

11 Mr. Gavrankapetanovic?

12 MR. STAMP: Yes, if it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours,

13 we have had the weekend to peruse the forward copy of the decision of the

14 Court pursuant to 92 bis. And subject to clarification from the Court,

15 we would respectfully proceed or seek leave to proceed by calling

16 Dr. Gavrankapetanovic as a viva voce witness and not pursuant to 92 bis.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you are not allowed to call the witness

18 under 92 bis, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are not allowed to

19 call him as a viva voce witness.

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much. And he would be taken by

21 Mr. Manoj Sachdeva. May it please you, Mr. President.


23 [The witness entered court]


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 12516

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

2 understand?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you are Mr. Gavrankapetanovic.

5 Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and

6 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the

7 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to

8 make that declaration of which the text will now be handed out to you by

9 the usher.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Gavrankapetanovic. Please

13 be seated.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I have to inform you at the beginning of your

16 testimony, that it is possible that it will be interrupted since there is

17 still one hour, one hour and a half left for another witness, and he has

18 to leave this afternoon. So it might be that in the course of your

19 examination, it will be interrupted and we will then resume later. And

20 that will, as far as I can see, later today then.

21 Mr. Sachdeva.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 Examined by Mr. Sachdeva:

25 Q. Good morning Witness. I am wary of my pronunciation so can you

Page 12517

1 state your full name for the record, please?

2 A. Good morning. My name is Faris Gavrankapetanovic.

3 Q. And do you live in Sarajevo?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. How long have you lived there?

6 A. I was born there.

7 Q. Did you remain in Sarajevo during the period 1992 to 1995?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. And are you presently employed?

10 A. I am.

11 Q. What is your occupation please?

12 A. I am a doctor. I am a specialist in general surgery. Currently

13 I am a general manager of the university in Sarajevo.

14 Q. When you say "the university in Sarajevo" is that the name of a

15 hospital?

16 A. Yes. It has a different name which is not an official name. It

17 is the clinical centre of the University of Sarajevo, known as the Kosevo

18 Hospital.

19 Q. And as general manager, can you briefly explain to the Court the

20 responsibilities that go with that position.

21 A. Well it is a managerial position. I am managing the staff of

22 the hospital, employed at the hospital. I am a manager organising the

23 work and I am also organising the payment of salaries for employees paid

24 out through the funds for the costs of the hospital and also I am

25 responsible for everything that goes on in the hospital.

Page 12518

1 Q. You say that you are responsible for everything that goes on in

2 the hospital. Can you be a little bit more specific, please.

3 A. Yes. I am responsible for everything that is to do with my post.

4 It is the government of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina which is

5 responsible for the hospital and the four cantons. So that is the

6 government of the Federation, the Sarajevo canton as the main founder,

7 together then Sana and Una --

8 THE INTERPRETER: And could you slow down the witness, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gavrankapetanovic, may I ask you to talk a bit

10 slower because the interpreters cannot follow your speed.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You can perhaps look at the cursor on your screen.

13 As soon as it stops then, at least they have translated everything. I

14 wouldn't say that you also have to stop until it stops moving, but please

15 slow down.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Do your responsibilities include anything in respect to the

18 record keeping at the hospital?

19 A. Yes, they do. But if you just allow me, I would like to come

20 back to finish the parts that I started. The managing rights are held by

21 the government of the Federation and the four cantons that I mentioned,

22 the Sana-Una canton, the Central Bosnia canton, the Karejovo de Doboj

23 canton, the Sarajevo canton and they represent the managing board which

24 executive director and then the director is responsible for the

25 executive function. That means that I am responsible also for the

Page 12519

1 documentation, that is for the records that you mentioned.

2 Q. Thank you. So going back to my question with respect to the

3 records, what exactly is your role?

4 A. I don't keep records myself personally. At the post that I

5 occupy, I don't keep the records. But I am responsible for the records

6 that is kept by others. If this is to do with entries, parameters of

7 entries for protocols these are kept by the people who have secondary

8 school we call them medical technicians and nurses regardless of

9 whether they are women or men. They are the ones that keep the records.

10 A doctor enters a diagnosis, a prognosis, and also what has been done,

11 that is the treatment.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 I am going to show you some records in a moment, but I would just

14 like you to tell us, were you director-general of Kosevo hospital during

15 the conflict, that is 1992 to 1995?

16 A. No, I wasn't. I was a doctor, a surgeon working in traumatology.

17 I worked in the hospital as I have explained before which is the treatment

18 of the injured. Before me, there were two general managers, their names

19 are mentioned in the statement that I gave to you.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. I am sorry, I am a general manager I was elected on the 7th of

22 November 2000, and considering that this is a very large institution.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. For a whole month, there was an appeals procedure and I started

25 to work on the 19th of December 2000.

Page 12520

1 Q. Thank you, Witness.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, with your leave, I would like to

3 show the witness some documents. Unfortunately they are contained within

4 the 92 bis package with the witness, so they are not individually

5 numbered. But I think the best course of action would be to go through

6 the ERN that are indicated on the records.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, how many approximately would you like to show

8 to the witness. Are we talking about three or ten or?

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Probably four documents in total, but three batches

10 containing a number of pages.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, for practical reasons we will start with

12 the bundles, since Madam Registrar would not be able to separate each

13 individual document. But I take it all those that are working with it,

14 perhaps the Defence, the Bench and the Prosecution, perhaps at a later

15 stage could separate them, but let's start with the bundle.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: As you wish, Mr. President. While those documents

17 are being handed to you witness, if you were to see records from Kosevo

18 Hospital would you be able to recognise them?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sachdeva, would you be able to guide the usher

21 in that way that only the documents you intend to show to the witness

22 will be in front of him and then we will find our way through the...

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.

24 Q. If you can just take some time to peruse those documents.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate to us what is in front of

Page 12521












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12522

1 the witness at this moment.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, we have a batch of -- a document

3 containing roughly 12 pages. The ERN goes from 02156586 to 02156602. And

4 there is also an English translation which is 03014354, although I don't

5 believe you have them.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Sachdeva, are these papers in numerical

7 order?

8 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, they are. There should be numbers at the

9 bottom of the page. I think with this particular document the best course

10 of action is to go by the ERN numbers which are at the top right-hand

11 corner of the document and there are two numbers that we are talking

12 about. The number 02156586 which is the larger print.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sachdeva, I think we found them. On the other

14 hand I have a document in my hands which is the same number as well,

15 which is a totally different document. May I just ask the usher to show

16 this document to you and see whether it also starts with 02156586. It is

17 difficult to read.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, this is a different document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know. But has it the same number?

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Not the same number. The number on the protocol

21 is 02156586. I think it is actually the name number. But I suspect

22 that --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that we are talking about documents

24 like this and would you please take care not to put the same ERN numbers

25 on different documents.

Page 12523

1 MR. SACHDEVA: I am guided Mr. President.

2 Q. Doctor, have you had a chance to peruse these documents?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you see your signature on these documents?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you explain to the Court what this document depicts, or what

7 is this document?

8 A. Well, if you allow me, I noticed here several dates of injured

9 people, of injured patients, who are admitted to the emergencies, to the

10 emergency centre. And the abbreviation is "CUM" and the dates are 4th of

11 February, 5th of February, both 1994. And then I saw the 22nd of

12 January, of the 23rd of January 1994, 12th of July. I would say this is

13 1993. Then 13th and 14th of July 1993. 30th and 31st of May and the 1st

14 of June 1993. I think there are in all 17 documents.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 We will get back to the details later. Can you just say, do

17 these documents emanate from your institution, that is, the Kosevo

18 Hospital?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what type of document is this?

21 A. These are admissions details for the main protocol which is kept

22 and located at the emergency centre where -- as of 1993 to date, every

23 injured person or sick person goes through there, is admitted there.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Does this represent the first record contact for a patient that

Page 12524

1 comes to the hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If we can now -- if you can now look at the first page. If you

4 see on the top right-hand corner, a number 02156586, do you see that?

5 A. 02156586, yes.

6 Q. Okay, thank you. And on the extreme left, you will see the first

7 column. If you could tell us what that column depicts please.

8 A. This is a number of the injured, the serial number, probably from

9 the start of the year, from the 1st of January 1994.

10 Q. Next to that column, there is a column headed "Datum."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you see the date underneath that, the first date underneath

13 that title?

14 A. Yes. 4th of February 1994.

15 Q. Okay. Now, if you look at the number 694 and go down and come to

16 number 701 on the same page, do you see the date next to that number?

17 A. Yes. Yes. 5th of February 1994.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you.

19 If you now go through the pages until you arrive at the number

20 eight, the number on the left hand column, 802.

21 The ERN page is 02156595 on the right-hand corner.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you see the date 5/2/1994, there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you explain to the Court what these entries are? In other

Page 12525

1 words, from number 694 on the 4th of February 1994 to number 802?

2 A. Yes. These are injured people but 694 was the day before, the

3 number given the day before on the 4th of February 1994, and the next

4 date begins with 701 on a page 02156586, that is 5th of February 1994.

5 All of these people injured from number 701 until number 802 were taken

6 care of. They went through the emergency centre without -- regardless

7 whether these people were taken care of and injured or those who were

8 brought already dead or those who died during treatment.

9 Q. So everybody that came to the hospital, that on the 4th and 5th of

10 February was recorded down on this protocol. Is that correct?

11 A. Everybody who was admitted to Kosevo Hospital, yes. Since there

12 was another hospital, there were two other hospitals, Kosevo was the

13 biggest and there were two more hospitals, one in the centre of town,

14 general hospital, and another one in the Dobrinja area, that was the

15 general hospital as well, treating patients from that area.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 If you can now go to page 2, the second page of that batch,

18 please. If you go to the sixth column from the left, you will see the

19 words, [B/C/S spoken]. Do you see that column there?

20 A. No. I mean just a second. It should be 02156587.

21 Q. Correct. Do you see the time depicted on that page?

22 A. Is it the serial number 711?

23 Q. Well, 711 is included on that page. But if you look at the

24 column where the time is depicted, do you see that there?

25 A. Yes. Hour, 12.35.

Page 12526

1 Q. Can you explain to the court why the time is recorded down this

2 page and the next page as 12.35 for each admitted patient?

3 A. Yes. If I may, first of all, generally speaking, we always enter

4 the time of admission, especially in 1992, 1995, both before and after

5 that. Whenever we talk about car accidents, any incidents of violence

6 or anything like that because it is particularly important from the point

7 of view of forensic medicine, because you have to be able to tell the

8 exact time when the patient was admitted to hospital. So we always take

9 care to specify that. In this case, there was a huge number of patients

10 brought to the hospital at the same time. Quite a few of them. I think

11 we can tell exactly how many if we go through these papers. And they

12 were all brought to the hospital at approximately the same time, so we

13 recorded this hour for the simple reason, so as to separate the records

14 for these patients from others who were brought to the hospital from

15 other places, but there were less of them.

16 Q. Why did you want to separate the records for these patients?

17 Where were they brought from?

18 A. Yes. As far as I can tell, it is to 12.35, the 5th of February

19 1994, it is the time when the dead and wounded were brought to the

20 hospital and the cause was the event at the Markale market.

21 Q. When you say, "event at Markale" can you be more specific,

22 please.

23 A. Well, unfortunately, there were quite of few events, but the one

24 that we are discussing at the moment took place on a Saturday, the 5th of

25 February. As far as I can remember, the period before that event was

Page 12527

1 rather calm and tranquil and I suppose quite a few people went to the

2 market. And then a shell landed and injured quite a few people, more

3 than 100, in fact.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Can you please now go to page 02156598. It is the 5th to the

6 last page. Do you see the record number there 12/27? It is the third

7 row down.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you see the date next to that column?

10 A. Yes, I do; the 12th of July 1993. The 12th of July, according to

11 this register.

12 Q. If you now continue to page, the second last page 02156601. Do

13 you see the record number 995 on the right hand -- left-hand side?

14 A. 995 I don't. There is a 925, if this is the page you are

15 referring to.

16 Q. Yes. And what is the date in the column next to it?

17 A. The date is the 1st of June 1993.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 And finally on this document, if you can move back to page

20 02156597. Do you see the number 433 on the left-hand side?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And the date 21st -- 22nd, 1, 1994?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay, thank you.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: That document can be removed. Mr. President,

Page 12528

1 perhaps this document can be marked with the letter "A"?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could do that.

3 MR. SACHDEVA: This would be 3737A. And also if I may have a

4 translation of this document, which is 3737.1 -- A.1. With your leave,

5 Mr. President I have another document to show the witness.

6 THE REGISTRAR: May we have a copy of the translation, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Are these ERN numbers 03014353 up until 03014400, is

8 that the translation?

9 MR. SACHDEVA: That's right, Mr. President. Mr. President I've

10 handed the witness document -- if I should give you the reference number.

11 It is 02156603 to 02156612.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Please pronounce figures slowly.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: 02156603 to 02156613 [as said].

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sachdeva it would certainly have assisted us if

15 the copies were made such that we could see ERN numbers on it. I see the

16 first one and I was --

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, the ERN numbers are on every other

18 page. Essentially, one is --

19 JUDGE ORIE: I see it. I see it now, yes. So every two pages

20 bear one ERN number. Is that front and back of the page?

21 MR. SACHDEVA: It is the front of the page.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. But Mr. Sachdeva, there is no ERN

23 numbers on the back of the page or the right-hand side of the --

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Correct, it is the same page, but it is --

25 JUDGE ORIE: And could you please repeat the last page. Would

Page 12529

1 that be last three digits 612?

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes. 02156612.


4 MR. SACHDEVA: May I proceed?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


7 Q. Doctor, do you recognise this document?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Can you tell us what this document is?

10 A. This document is the patients' register for patients admitted to

11 the operation theatre or the operation theatres, because there is more

12 than one. And they are at the emergency department.

13 Q. So I take it this is a separate protocol for a different

14 department in the hospital?

15 A. This is the register listing the patients for whom it was decided

16 that they had to be operated on. So, in other words, they were taken

17 from the emergencies to the operating theatre, to the part of the hospital

18 where the operating theatres are.

19 Q. Do you see your signature on this document?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. If you turn to the second page please.

22 A. What is the beginning of that page? I am sorry.

23 Q. If you look at the left-hand side, it has the record number 344

24 on the left-hand side.

25 A. Yes.

Page 12530

1 Q. Do you see a date next to that?

2 A. Yes I do; the 4th of February 1994.

3 Q. And then further down that page do you see the 5th of February

4 1994?

5 A. Yes, I do. 341.

6 Q. Sir, this document depicts people who were brought on the 4th and

7 5th of February and required surgery. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, but there is an error. It is not 341, but 351. [In

9 English] 351.

10 [Interpretation] Are you talking about the -- could you repeat

11 the question please. Yes, the first one is 351, the 5th of February

12 1994.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 So this document shows record of people who were admitted for

15 surgery on the 4th and 5th of February 1994?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you can now go to the page reference 02156607. 02156607. Do

18 you have that there?

19 A. I don't. I don't have the top of the page. I suppose it is the

20 one I am looking at at the moment, but the top bit is missing.

21 Q. Do you see halfway down that page the number 227, the record

22 number, pertaining to a "Du sa hamdo" [phoen]?

23 A. No, that is not the one I am looking at. No, I found it now,

24 okay.

25 Q. Do you see 227 now, the record number, and the date next to that?

Page 12531

1 A. The 22nd of January 1994. The date is not clear but since the

2 dates directly before and after are the same, it must be the 22nd of

3 January 1994.

4 Q. And if you go to the right-hand side and third column from the

5 right which says "Naca tesir" [phoen]. What does that mean, please?

6 A. "Naca tesir" refers to the anesthesiologist. Whenever there is

7 surgery, and the protocols refer to the diagnosis, the type of surgery,

8 the anesthesia, and then the list of people participating.

9 Q. Do you recognise any of these people recorded here?

10 A. All doctors, yes, I do. As to the technical staff, perhaps not

11 every single one of them, but most of them yes.

12 Q. Okay, thank you.

13 I would like to show you one more document.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sachdeva, you gave numbers to the other

15 documents. Are you doing the same here and are you providing

16 translations, or?

17 MR. SACHDEVA: I am, Mr. President. This document can be marked

18 3737B. And the translation is ERN 03034087.

19 JUDGE ORIE: By pronouncing the numbers, would you please slow

20 down, because that is even more difficult than any other thing.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. I will repeat, 03034087.

22 3203034110.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that that would be P3737B.1?

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. Mr. President, perhaps we can

25 have a break and the examination-in-chief so as to --

Page 12532

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if this would be a moment where you could stop

2 before going to your next document. Then the Defence could continue to

3 cross-examine Dr. Higgs, and then for certain, they will conclude by

4 12.00, since you have got one hour and a half hours left as far as my

5 accounting goes. Yes.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: This would be a good moment.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gavrankapetanovic, as I indicated before, there

8 might be an interruption in your examination. This is the moment where

9 we have to switch to another witness. I apologise for that, but practical

10 reasons more or less forced us to proceed this way. May I instruct you

11 not to speak with anyone about your testimony in this court. Yes.

12 Mr. Usher, would you then please escort Mr. Gavrankapetanovic out

13 of the courtroom.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE ORIE: And could you perhaps at the same time bring

16 Mr. Higgs in once -- yes.

17 [The witness entered court]


19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Higgs. Please be seated. May I

20 remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at

21 the beginning of your testimony. The Defence will now resume its

22 cross-examination.

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

Page 12533

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I would like to come back to our last issue that we spoke about.

4 You will remember that we spoke about this area and I would like us to

5 have back on the ELMO the same document which was a map in relation to the

6 incident number five.


8 JUDGE ORIE: That would be P3727. 5th page.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could zoom on the

10 area that we are most interested in, which is above number five. Yes.

11 Thank you very much.

12 Q. Now, Witness, to come back to what we spoke of earlier when you

13 were here last, you told us that you were able to see the routes in the

14 southern part, south of the green line, which is what we call here, the

15 Seven Woods Sedam Suma. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Thank you,

18 Sir, could you please confirm to the Chamber if this is the case,

19 that a mortar, would it be of 120 millimetre, is that a much simpler

20 weapon to transport and to install than it would be the case for another

21 type of artillery weapon?

22 A. The 120 millimetre mortar would be easier to assemble than an

23 artillery piece, but more difficult than a medium mortar.

24 Q. Indeed. Thank you for your answer.

25 Sir is it true that it is perfectly feasible to fire such a mortar

Page 12534

1 from numerous locations, though bearing in mind that if we are on a

2 sloping terrain, that it is equally possible, thanks to the work of the

3 engineers to make a small horizontal base where a mortar could be placed;

4 yes or no?

5 A. Yes, it is possible to fire a mortar from any location like that.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Sir therefore, and being objective as an expert it is true that

8 you cannot formally rule out the possibility that a firing would come

9 from the lower part of this line, that is, from the area south from the

10 line?

11 A. It is not possible from the evidence that I have seen to discount

12 this 100 per cent. But what you must take in mind is the view of the low

13 area from the high areas to the north, and positioning a mortar in view of

14 an enemy or opposing forces who are able to look down on that position,

15 would not be the case.

16 Q. Sir, I thought so. But I would like you to answer by a yes or

17 no, if that is possible, to the question that I have asked. Could you

18 categorically rule out the firing from this area yes or no?

19 A. Your Honour, it is difficult to answer this question in just a

20 "yes or no," because with my military expertise, it would be extremely

21 unlikely to place a mortar in this location but also I could not 100 per

22 cent say they did or they didn't.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is that you could not exclude that. The

24 question was quite clearly about whether you could, I would say,

25 position, even if it was for a very short time a mortar there, and

Page 12535

1 whether it would be wise to do so, and whether it would be effective to

2 do so, if you want to look at a specific target. That is a different

3 question, but the answer is so clearly, no, you cannot exclude.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Q. Sir, yesterday on a photograph that you were shown, you

6 identified three elements, and you were able to give the names, one out

7 of three, do you remember that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Very well. Sir, could you please confirm if this is the case,

10 since first of all you spoke about a reductor? There is a problem with

11 the interpretation. I don't remember what was the term used. I believe

12 that you were speaking of a ring of reduction. I am going to rephrase my

13 question.

14 What was the name of the three elements, the three pieces that

15 you identified?

16 A. Two pieces were the shape you would expect to see from the fuse

17 adapter -

18 Q. I apologise. I am talking about the adapter.

19 In relation to this adapter, is it true that in fact this is an

20 adapter of diameter?

21 A. It is the part that connects the fuse to the body of the round.

22 Q. Very well.

23 I will later on ask you to have a look at a piece. I don't know

24 what the number is, because I didn't have time to see. But with the

25 assistance of Madam Registrar, we will find out immediately.

Page 12536


2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] D167. This piece could be

3 put on the ELMO please, with the assistance of the usher.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please assist, Mr. Usher.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The question that I am going to ask you, sir, is the following:

7 On the basis of the sketch that you see before you or the -- could you

8 please identify the adapter?

9 A. The fuse adapter is located in the area just below the fuse,

10 which will be on this picture in that area just there.

11 Q. Sir the expert is indicating on the top of the grenade on top of

12 the fuse itself.

13 Sir, on the two drawings --

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps it is a translation problem.

15 But the answer in English or rather the description in English provided

16 by my friend reads "the fuse adapter is located in the area just below

17 the fuse which will be --" I am sorry. The expert is indicating on the

18 top of the grenade on top of the fuse itself.

19 Now, that description is at least open to much ambiguity because

20 it doesn't --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase,

22 Mr. President. But in French it was very clear.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... in French,

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I was listening to the French channel. Please

25 proceed.

Page 12537












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12538

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the top

2 part of the body of the round, and in the part which is immediately below

3 of the fuse.

4 Q. Sir, could you please indicate where the fuse is.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Very well.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the

8 top part of the shell. We can see just below the fuse.

9 Q. Could you please point again to the adapter.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to

12 the top part of the body of the round below the fuse. Thank you.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, might it also be

14 noted that all of the references so far by the witness have been to the

15 diagram indicated as LM 120 millimetre, to make clear it is not to the

16 other two. Thank you

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance. Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I had

19 mentioned very clearly that this was showing the inside of the shell.

20 There is only one on the page.

21 Q. Sir, is it true that the adapter is also used to allow the

22 adaptation on the body of the round for a different type of a fuse. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes. Different types of bomb allow for different fuses to be

25 fitted into that location.

Page 12539

1 Q. Very well.

2 Sir, is it true, as far as you know, that for such shells, a fuse

3 has an immediate effect -- no.

4 With a fuse which works immediately, and the fuse which has a

5 time delay don't have necessarily the same diameter or the same section?

6 A. Different fuses can be fitted to different rounds. Not all

7 rounds can be fitted with a selection of fuses. Normally, the fuse would

8 be what we call a "direct action fuse." This would detonate on impact.

9 Most direct action fuses also have what we call a "delay setting," which

10 delays the fuse from detonating by approximately point 05 of a second.

11 That type of fuse is normally fitted as standard.

12 Q. Very well.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

14 usher, I would like to ask you to have a look at a second piece which

15 would be piece D168 please.

16 Mr. President, on this document, and there are some markings in

17 Serbian, but we do not wish to submit them. What we are mostly interested

18 in is the drawing which is on the top right part of this drawing.

19 Q. Sir, does the drawing which can be seen on the top right part,

20 could we please focus a little better. Thank you. Which is the top

21 right side of this document, does this drawing correspond to the -- to

22 what an adapter looks like? Although, it was presented as having

23 exploded -- no a section.

24 A. From the drawing, it is difficult to say, but it does look the

25 type of shape you would expect.

Page 12540

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 Sir, therefore, when we have an adapter, just to make things

3 simpler, could we say that this is a fixing ring; yes or no?

4 A. Yes. Fixing ring, yes, that is what it is.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 And could we say that in some cases, these rings are also

7 adapters used as adapters, which would allow the bottom part to attach

8 itself to the body of the shell, and then on the top, that they would be

9 screwed into the fuse [as interpreted]?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 So, sir it is true that for one round, one shell, which was fired,

13 there would only be one adapter?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for the better understanding,

17 could you please look with me at page 25, lines 19 and 20. Is it correct

18 that you said "and then on the top"?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am a little blinded, but I

20 will try and see. That was page 25, line 19 and 20.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Bottom part would attach -- say and then on the top

22 the fuse would be screwed in instead of --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. It is the other

24 way around.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for line 20, 19 and 20, to correct that

Page 12541

1 the fuse would then screwed in the adapter.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. Thank you very much.

4 I will avail myself of this opportunity to ask for a technician, because

5 I only have half of my screen today.

6 Q. Sir, it is true that when a shell is fired, there is only one

7 adapter for this shell; yes? You already said, but I would like you

8 to --

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like

11 to ask again for the photograph that we saw last Friday. It is this

12 photograph which was shown to the witness and I believe we saw some 73

13 pieces.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That is the one that is now in front of you I think

15 with the small -- yes.


17 JUDGE ORIE: Could it please be put on the ELMO.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the piece on which the

19 witness marked one, two, three.

20 Q. Sir, just to make things very clear could you please mention what

21 are the two pieces of the adapter that you identified?

22 A. They are numbers one and two.

23 Q. Very well.

24 If we can still keep this photograph, and then if the witness can

25 be shown our exhibit.

Page 12542

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which is D61, it is an old

2 exhibit, D61. I would like to see it before just to make sure that it is

3 the one.

4 Q. I am showing you this photograph because it seems much clearer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It will be put on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. We agree that this is the same photograph, Witness? Do you

8 recognise the same items?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 Now, sir, we worked on the same photograph that you identified,

12 and now, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

13 distributed another exhibit.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, I am

15 looking at the clock and I believe the time is perfect for a break.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you -- Mr. Usher, could you please return the

17 two documents to the Registrar and we will adjourn until 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before I give you the opportunity

21 to resume your cross-examination, I would like to inform the parties that

22 this morning, early, before we started, there was some discussions with

23 the court management and using empty courtroom time on another case is

24 not that easy, since that case was sitting in the morning usually as

25 well. So we can't sit in two courtrooms in the morning. Until now, the

Page 12543

1 result is that we might sit on Thursday for the full day. We still have

2 to consider what kind of breaks we would use, but that would be from

3 early in the morning, 9.00, up to 7.00 in the evening. So that would at

4 least give us quite a number of hours extra. That, as it stands, at this

5 moment.

6 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like

8 to take this opportunity now to refer to something General Galic told me

9 because this matter was raised last Friday. And he confided that he did

10 not feel up to being here for such a long period of time. And he has

11 assiduously attended all hearings so far, but a full day of hearings from

12 his point of view is unbearable. Unacceptable.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We will hear at a later stage -- one day it is not

14 for the whole week. But we will, at a later stage, not in the presence of

15 the witness, we will hear the comments of General Galic.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just to inform you that we will be

19 calling a certain witness tomorrow who is the subject of discussion last

20 Friday. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I do understand what you mean.

22 Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. With

24 the assistance of the usher, document 169 to be circulated. Thank you

25 very much, sir.

Page 12544

1 Q. Let me just remind you sir, about before the break I submitted

2 to you a document which you identified as being the same and so we will

3 continue on the copy of this last document. It has been renumbered now,

4 169, for the proceedings.

5 Sir, these adapters, can you find them again on this image; yes

6 or no?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, we are now going to engage in the following exercise. We

9 will point a compass on the arch of the circle defined by these two

10 elements that is going to yield various circles, A, A 1, B, B 1, and then

11 we can look at either a smaller or bigger section of what appears on the

12 screen.

13 Sir, does it appear that there are two different diameters for

14 these adapters?

15 A. The adapter shape will give you these two diameters, because it

16 is cone shaped and not symmetrical.

17 Q. Yes, quite.

18 But when it comes to this screw, the internal screw, normally for

19 the inside, it refers to a vertical section?

20 A. The inner-part circle of the adapter would be vertical, that is

21 correct.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Is it correct that the circles with --

23 outlined here are on the inside, the inner parts?

24 A. That would be difficult to tell from the pieces of shrapnel

25 because they are not complete.

Page 12545

1 Q. Fine.

2 But you will agree with me that these circles were not placed on

3 the outside, but on the inside of this curve?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Sir, is it correct that what we see here are two quite different

7 diameters. We see twice two different diameters. A, on the one hand and

8 B on the other hand.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Sir, could we then draw a probable conclusion that we are dealing

12 with two different types of adapters here?

13 A. No, that is not correct.

14 Q. Why not?

15 A. The shape of the adapter because it is always smaller at the top

16 than it is at the base, will give you fragments both of one of a small

17 diameter and one of a larger one. The inside features of this shrapnel

18 do not have to come to meet the vertical of the smallest diameter because

19 inside of these, there would normally be a thin metal chamber which then

20 supports the fuse and it is that chamber that is vertical, not the body of

21 the adapter which these two pieces appear to be from.

22 Q. Fine.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please, usher, show

24 us once again, the document 168.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just to take advantage of that short

Page 12546

1 break, at some stage might we have access to D61. Thank you.


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please show 168

4 once again whilst leaving this on the screen. [In English] 169 --

5 168, sorry. [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. Sir, the orifice that we see on the inside of the adapter to the

7 right which corresponds to the upper part of the body of the shell,

8 doesn't it show on the inside a screw shape of a diameter which is always

9 equal; yes or no?

10 A. Could you just confirm which part, please.

11 Q. The scheme, the pattern that you have on the right-hand side

12 which represents an adapter, can you see it?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. Isn't it true that on the inside it incorporates a screw shape

15 fitting bit which must necessarily have a parallel and a vertical section?

16 A. The base of the adapter which would fit into the body of the

17 round, which would be on your drawing, the base there, that screw thread,

18 yes, would be vertical to screw into the body of the round. The inner

19 part where the fuse would then screw into, again, yes, it would be

20 vertical because of the liner that I have already spoke about.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 So we agree that the two threads of those screw, both on the

23 inside and both on the outside are vertical?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. So we can agree that if we find a hollow part of an adapter, in

Page 12547

1 other words, the part corresponding to the gap or the void of an internal

2 screw thread, it can only have one single diameter, is it true?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 Is it not true that with reference to the two parts of the

6 adapter that you yourself have pointed out, these pieces appear to have a

7 different sizes of this gap or void on the inside? Does it appear so?

8 A. Yes, they are a different internal side.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, if you had these two pieces in front

10 of you, would you be in a position to identify them better, more

11 accurately?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 Sir, is it correct that the chemical and mechanographical

15 analysis would allow to identify the quality of the metals used in order

16 to manufacture such-and-such a bullet; yes or no?

17 A. Yes, you would.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 Expert, is it correct in theory that generally speaking for one

20 round, one should come across one single type of diameter? What I mean

21 is round fired, and in theory; yes or no?

22 A. Could you confirm which diameter you are talking about?

23 Q. It doesn't matter which one. I am simply referring say to a 120

24 millimetre shell or an 82 millimetre shell or mortar. Once you find it

25 once it had exploded, or even if you find it intact on that device, you

Page 12548

1 can only find one single type of adapter?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 So if there is only one single adapter with one single internal

5 diameter in order for the fuse to be fitted to it in principle you can't

6 come across two different types of diameters; is that correct?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Expert, if -- well, let's assume we were to

9 find two completely different types of diameters, wouldn't the conclusion

10 then be -- and I am referring to the central screw thread on the inside

11 and vertically speaking -- would the conclusion then be that at least two

12 shells had been fired because we would have two different sizes of

13 diameters? Would it be the logical conclusion?

14 A. To come to that conclusion, you would have to identify the

15 internal screw threads. On this diagram, or this picture, you cannot

16 identify the screw threads.

17 Q. Witness, unfortunately we don't have the devices here. I am just

18 talking about the principle of the matter, about a theory. If one were

19 able to demonstrate that two different types of diameters were found on

20 the spot, would the experts conclusion be that there had been at least

21 two types of shells? Because we have got two different sizes for the

22 diameter. Yes or no?

23 A. As I mentioned before, to ascertain that, you either need to

24 definitely have the threads or to have the chamber which fits inside the

25 adapter which is the vertical chamber. The outer parts of the adapter

Page 12549

1 which these may be, you would not expect them to be the same diameter.

2 The problem from the picture is that we can't see because we don't have

3 the physical evidence that they are the internal dimensions.

4 Q. Okay.

5 However, we don't have the devices, unfortunately. We asked for

6 them but we don't have them. My question is the following: On a purely

7 theoretical level, yes or no, that if we were to find, let's assume, two

8 totally different diameter sizes corresponding to this inner screw thread,

9 would it be true that it would necessarily point out to there being two

10 different types of fuses or shells; yes or no?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

14 usher, I am going to submit to you, a document 170. Perhaps we could

15 place it properly on the screen.

16 Q. Let me explain this to you. This is a photocopy of the part of

17 the previous figure that we were interested in, but now we have carried

18 out some very simple measurements there to ascertain the size, on the

19 basis of what we had been able to define.

20 Now is it correct sir, that the external size of the item marked

21 by "A" is smaller than the item marked by "B"?

22 A. That appears correct.

23 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

24 Let me just mention for the sake of the transcript, that this is

25 a photocopy of a part of the photocopy that we were looking at earlier

Page 12550

1 on. I have no further photocopies, but I am now going to put to you a

2 certain number of other technical questions.

3 Could you just confirm that there is a difference in the rate of

4 penetration of the bullets or the shells, depending on the terrain, that

5 is whether they hit the macadam, the cement or the concrete or what have

6 you?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 Witness what is the depth, not just of the crater, but of

10 something which we occasionally call a tunnel, that you would expect to

11 see within the framework of a soft terrain, on the one hand, and a hard

12 terrain on the other hand?

13 A. This is difficult to answer precisely because all ground types

14 give slightly different answers. But where you talk about "the tunnel" I

15 presume you mean the fuse furrow. On soft ground, this can go down into

16 the ground anything really soft ground ending up to half a metre. Hard

17 ground, it could then be limited to no fuse furrow at all or a very short

18 one of a matter of only of a few centimetres.

19 Q. Very well.

20 And on a hard ground the stabiliser which as a consequence would

21 be at the very -- at the tail end of the shell, could also get burrowed

22 into the ground; yes or no?

23 A. Yes, it can, but again it is affected by those points that I

24 raised in my report.

25 Q. Would you expect on a hard ground such as ground covered by a

Page 12551

1 layer of concrete, would you expect the stabiliser not just to break it

2 up, but to penetrate in greater depth into the ground underneath?

3 A. On the harder surfaces, the tail-fins tend not to dig in deep as

4 on soft ground, but they still do. The amount by which they penetrate

5 the ground, it is very difficult to be specific exactly how far they will

6 go.

7 Q. You have mentioned, sir to have seen quite a few rounds being

8 shelled. Have you often seen on hard ground tail-fins which were

9 completely dug into the ground? When I talk about "hard ground" I mean

10 about a surfacing which is not soil, but a layer of macadam or concrete?

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question in its

12 present composition. I would ask that the word "completely" be qualified.

13 Does my learned friend mean that the tail-fin is completely, that is,

14 wholly consumed within the earth or not?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I meant,

16 completely. Full penetration, that's what I meant.

17 Q. And dug in very deeply.

18 A. I have seen medium mortar rounds on tarmac where the tail-fins

19 have been below the level of the surface.

20 Q. My question was rather, whether it is an exception or the rule?

21 A. On very hard ground such as tarmac, it happens less than it would

22 do on soft ground.

23 Q. I take it then it would be an exception rather than the rule, on

24 the basis of what you are saying?

25 A. Not an exception. It still happens, but a lot lower percentage.

Page 12552

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Sir would the rate of penetration be different depending on what

3 sort of fuse you have got, a delay or a direct taction fuse or a delay

4 setting?

5 A. Yes, it would.

6 Q. Just very briefly, in what way?

7 A. A delay setting allows the round to travel further approximately

8 point 05 of a second before detonating. This gives the round time to big

9 into the ground before it explodes.

10 Q. Sir, is there a way of determining after an explosion whether it

11 was direct action or a delay setting fuse?

12 A. Yes. The crater examination on a delay setting, the investigators

13 should identify it immediately because it gives a completely different

14 crater.

15 Q. In what way is it a completely different crater?

16 A. Because the round is exploding further into the ground, the

17 pattern given off by the shrapnel is a more contained inside the crater.

18 So you don't get the normal mortar pattern.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Have you seen, sir, any sort of a picture or reproduction of

21 Markale crater?

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 Q. Yes, you have?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the basis of your considerations and on the basis of your

Page 12553












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12554

1 expertise do you believe that that could have been a direct action fuse

2 that would have been used, had the shell never been fired to land on the

3 market?

4 A. The crater that is visible in the pictures seems to be that of a

5 direct action fuse.

6 Q. Thus, it is the type of crater whereby the shell is not likely to

7 dig in very deeply into the ground. Is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 Witness, I would now like to move on to other matters, just very

11 briefly. You spoke about types of explosion. Is it true, is it exact,

12 yes or no, that the age of ammunition could be a factor that would be

13 detrimental on the quality of the materiel that is to explode; yes or no?

14 A. Yes. The top of ammunition will affect the explosive

15 effectiveness of the round.

16 Q. I am talking about their age, sir. And for the transcript, we

17 are speaking of the same thing, aren't we?

18 A. Yes, I am. The older the ammunition tends to be less effective

19 than the newer types.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Sir, you said that it is less efficient. It is less efficient --

22 less effective on various levels? For instance, it's aerodynamic its

23 flight capacity on the one hand and on the other hand, its explosive

24 effectiveness, that is its ability to explode or not explode, whatever

25 the case?

Page 12555

1 A. Generally, the older ammunitions have slightly shorter ranges and

2 they tend to be less powerful on detonation.

3 Q. And in relation to the flight?

4 A. Some of the older ammunitions, yes, can be less accurate than the

5 newer types.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 And very briefly sir, do you know what it means M-38, 1 or 2 or 3?

8 A. Just those numbers on their own don't mean a great deal, but they

9 appear to be batch numbers that you would sometimes get on certain

10 ammunitions.

11 Q. Do you know what this means, specifically?

12 A. In this context no.

13 Q. I am going to ask you the same thing for three series of numbers,

14 M-52 R-1, M-64 R-1 R-2, and M-72 RR-123.

15 A. Without obviously some reference it is impossible to say, but they

16 appear to be model or batch numbers of weapons or ammunitions.

17 Q. Very well.

18 Let's assume that these are batch numbers and that "R" correspond

19 to the remount, have you ever seen any firing tables for R-1, R-2, R-3?

20 A. I cannot be specific on that. I have seen the firing tables that

21 were contained in the report for this incident. I can't remember if that

22 was specifically that one.

23 Q. Sir if you have seen the tables, do you know exactly which tables

24 you have seen in numbers yes or no?

25 A. The table I have seen is the one that is in the UNPROFOR report

Page 12556

1 of this incident, whichever table that is, I don't know.

2 Q. Which incident? Which incident?

3 A. For the 120 millimetre, it would be for incident five, the market

4 incident.

5 Q. Very well.

6 Sir, would you agree with me that for each of the shells, i.e.,

7 for each of the types, the models R-38 or M-52 there would be a firing

8 table which relates to it, which corresponds to it?

9 A. Yes I would.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you.

11 Is it true that these firing tables are different, they differ

12 because the M72 has different qualities to the R-38 model; yes or no?

13 A. Yes, they will differ.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 Sir, how were you able to see a firing table when we don't even

16 know if allegedly the shell that had hit on the market is 38, 52, 64, or

17 72?

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question is unfair. The witness

19 has said that his recollection is that the firing table was attached to

20 the UNPROFOR report. Given that answer, this question lacks any

21 probative value, because really, it questions the appropriateness of the

22 UNPROFOR investigators, including the firing table in the report.

23 Mr. President, further, might I have access to that report it is

24 PT -- I'm sorry, P2309A.1. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: In order to be able to follow the questioning, I

Page 12557

1 think it would be good if we would have that report available. Is it not

2 attached to the report of Mr. Higgs? That is what I am just asking

3 myself. I think it is not. No.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think so,

5 Mr. President. But that is not going to change anything to what the

6 witness said, that there are different tables, according to different

7 models. He was given a table, and since he doesn't know which one he saw,

8 and we don't even know on the basis of which table the calculations had

9 been done. So at this stage, I think that the response is clear.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness has told us which

11 tables he used. I haven't got clearly at my mind at this moment what is

12 in these tables or not. But he also told us that he has no clear

13 recollection exactly of the content of these tables. And you can't

14 expect the witness to have all the figures in his head. So if the matter

15 is dependent on the table and the content of the table, it would be fair

16 if both the -- yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question

18 is not related to the contents of the tables but on the years of the

19 tables, that is, is this a table which relates to model 38 or to the 52

20 or to the 64 or to 72.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... knows that by

22 heart, there is no problem, but if he does not, and part of the objection

23 against the question was that we would not be able to check at this very

24 moment the relevance of the question is without having had access to this

25 document.

Page 12558

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I could rephrase my question.

2 Q. Sir, you only received one table yes or no?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Sir, you do not know any more whether this table was relating to

6 38, 52, 64 or 72 model. Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Sir, who gave you this table?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. At page 40 line 16, I

11 think it is in the English transcript, the witness clearly said that the

12 table was part of the UNPROFOR report.


14 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That doesn't mean that he received the UNPROFOR

16 report from the UNPROFOR. That is not the same.

17 MR. IERACE: True, Mr. President. The question therefore should

18 be in relation to the UNPROFOR report. In other words, who gave you the

19 UNPROFOR report, rather than who gave you this table.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If the tables are in the UNPROFOR report, I did

21 understand the question to be that in what way did you receive this

22 UNPROFOR report containing the tables. But if I am not correct --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 12559

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Was the objection overruled?

2 JUDGE ORIE: You may ask the witness how he received these tables

3 in this report.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Q. Who handed you the report and the tables which were attached to

6 it?

7 A. When I started my investigation, I was given those reports by the

8 UN -- the Prosecutor's part of the UN.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you.

10 But you are certain there was just one table, one single table?

11 A. There is just the one table in that report.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you.

13 Sir could you be very quick and brief because the time is

14 passing very quickly, also for the Prosecution. Could you confirm if

15 this is the case, that it is practically impossible to see with the naked

16 eye the trajectory of a shell?

17 A. It is possible if you stand directly behind the mortar to see it

18 leaving the barrel on its upward flight. But it is nearly impossible, I

19 have never known anybody to see one passing overhead.

20 Q. Is it true that the mortar itself is static, a mortar is static

21 and that it is not going to appear as ball of fire in the sky or something

22 similar?

23 A. You mean the mortar that is firing?

24 Q. I am talking about the bomb, the projectile, I am talking about

25 the shell.

Page 12560

1 A. Well, obviously the mortar bomb cannot be static, it is moving.

2 But it does not give any trail or noticeable signs as it passes through

3 the air.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 This is a mistake in term on my part, that is what I wanted to

6 say. Therefore, the only possibility that one has of seeing it is to be

7 either in the axis of the firing or on the back of the mortar, on the

8 other side, on the back of the mortar?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Is it correct, Mr. Expert, that bearing in mind the relative

12 speed of sound, if we hear it, we hear a mortar shell for less time than

13 the trajectory that this shell has achieved?

14 A. Normally, by the time you hear the mortar firing, working on the

15 speed of sound, the round would have already have left the barrel and is

16 already some distance along its trajectory.

17 Q. Quite.

18 Now, to come back to the conditions of firing, is it correct,

19 sir, that the conditions in certain locations could be very different,

20 depending on the altitude, whether it is high ground or in the valley,

21 these conditions could greatly affect the firing of a mortar shell? I am

22 talking about theory, a principle.

23 A. Yes, they can.

24 Q. Is it correct that if these conditions can change very quickly,

25 firing that takes place on the -- that is fired on the basis of the same

Page 12561

1 coordinates without modifications could have a quite considerable errors

2 in firing?

3 A. If you fail to take them into account, then, yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 Sir, a number of witnesses or experts spoken about what we would

6 call a "safety zone" safety area of about 200 to 400 metres from the

7 target. Could you confirm in theory this zone, this area of 200-400

8 metres?

9 A. When you talk about safety zone in this point, are you relating

10 to the effectiveness or lethal area of the round or the built in safety

11 parameters by the firers and their own troops?

12 Q. I am talking about the second hypothesis?

13 A. In that case, most armies will build in a safety zone to stop

14 them shelling their own troops.

15 Q. Very well.

16 And sir this safety zone is established for two reasons. I

17 believe the first being is the possibility of error, and the second being

18 is obviously the lethal zone danger of firing on one's own troops. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 So, in other words, all the armies that you know about use this

23 margin to protect themselves, as soon as these such mistakes can take

24 place. Is that how I should understand it?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 12562

1 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

2 Sir, can an ordinary person -- and when I say "an ordinary

3 person" I mean someone who has not been trained in military things --

4 could he distinguish by hearing such or such shell, oh, this is an 82,

5 this is a 62, and so on?

6 A. That would depend on how many that person may have heard before

7 because on identifying mortars by sound there is no substitute for

8 experience.

9 Q. Quite.

10 But let us imagine that people are -- don't have experience and

11 that they hear not very frequently such firing near from where they were

12 fired, would it be possible for them to identify them; yes or no?

13 A. If the person has not heard many rounds fired or has not been

14 there long, it would be difficult for him to tell the difference between

15 probably a medium or heavy mortar. However, most people should know the

16 difference between a light mortar and a heavy mortar because their noise

17 is vastly different.

18 Q. And do you think that such a difference for ordinary people would

19 be distinguishable at a distance of say two kilometres?

20 A. Again, that depends on the person, his experience. But an

21 untrained person would probably have difficulty.

22 Q. Sir I think that you went on mission -- different missions in

23 Kenya. Could you confirm that?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. May I ask you who did -- who contracted you to go there?

Page 12563

1 A. The British government have an agreement with the Kenyan

2 government for the British Army to train in Kenya every year and because

3 of that, obviously, safety has to be set up. And I was employed by half

4 of the British government to act as the senior safety officer for those

5 particular exercises.

6 Q. Sir, you said in your written statement that in Kenya, ground was

7 particularly dry, compact and hard.

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 And that you considered this as being a -- not a soft ground?

11 A. No, definitely not. It was very hard ground.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 What was the state of the tail-fins, if you had fired rounds,

14 what was the state of the tail-fins that you may have found in C-2?

15 A. Due to the hardness of the ground, a low percentage of the

16 tail-fins are located in the craters. Of those that did locate in the

17 crater, the base of the tail-fins were normally bent backwards because of

18 the firmness of the ground, and they were located in the ground anything

19 from only a couple of centimetres to being, some of them a few centimetres

20 under ground level.

21 Q. These deformed tail-fins, were they slightly deformed or quite

22 severely deformed?

23 A. Most of them were just slightly deformed.

24 Q. And you said that they had only penetrated slightly into the

25 ground?

Page 12564

1 A. That was some of them. Some had penetrated below ground level.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 I believe that you also went on mission to Germany?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. I think that you also fired on tarmac ground?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And what was the degree of deformation on tail-fins in this case?

8 A. In this case, it was an incident which I had to investigate not

9 normal firing. There were five rounds fired. Only two of the craters

10 had the tail-fins in them. In that particular case, as far as I can

11 remember they were both approximately down to ground level.

12 Q. Yes. But in relation to the deformation of tail-fins, please.

13 A. Due to the hard ground they were obviously bent back. Once we

14 retrieved them, there was damage on the end of the tail-fin and also some

15 of the fins were bent.

16 Q. When you say that they were bent back, does it mean that the

17 tail-fins were practically folded back towards the tail?

18 A. No. When I say fold, the shaft or section of the tail-fin was

19 obviously deformed backwards, as it had been driven into the ground. But

20 the tail-fins were more bent to one side rather than bent backwards.

21 Q. Sir, in your opinion, would using a small charge, would this add

22 precision to firing or not?

23 A. By this I take it you mean using one of the lower charges to fire

24 the mortar?

25 Q. For instance, yes.

Page 12565

1 A. Normally, the least charge you can place on the mortar, the

2 better the accuracy.

3 Q. Very well.

4 Witness, what about if the charges themselves are old? If these

5 charges are already old or older, would this have any bearing on the

6 accuracy of firing?

7 A. It can do with certain old charges if they get wet, they can

8 deteriorate and produce shorter ranges.

9 Q. For instance the fact that if ammunition is left outside without

10 protection, is this something that would influence the accuracy of firing?

11 A. If that was to occur, then certain types of the older ammunitions

12 can be affected by damp and weather conditions.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 Sir, I would like to come back to the -- to the firing in salvo,

15 that is, in rapid firing, you defined this type of firing as being

16 harassment fire. I believe that is what you said, is that correct?

17 A. Not exactly. The -- if you were going to try and, what we call

18 "neutralise" the target, you would fire a number of rounds in quick

19 succession. If, however, you are just harassing the target, you normally

20 fire less rounds over a longer period of time.

21 Q. Sir, let us imagine that we are in the following situation:

22 Where a target is small, small groups of people are moving in order to --

23 for a change of shift, and small groups of people are together in

24 front -- standing together in front of an entrance to a building or

25 waiting to get into a vehicle, hypothetically speaking, two or three

Page 12566

1 rounds that are targeted are they justifiable from a military point of

2 view, in order not to waste ammunition; yes or no?

3 A. The size of target is always taken into account. You always try

4 and fire the minimum amount of ammunition to achieve your aim. So for a

5 group, let's say, of just half a dozen or ten people, with a medium

6 mortar, you would probably limit that to three rounds.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you.

8 Sir, if I have a specific particular geographic situation with

9 before me material obstacles, for instance, which would be a whole wall

10 of high-rise buildings which would prevent me from seeing the location of

11 the battle, if behind that wall of the building there is something which

12 I believe to be a group of soldiers or people who are armed, therefore,

13 targets, could I -- so I would be able to fire on them and hit them with

14 a mortar round; yes or no?

15 A. Yes, you would be able to hit them.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 Sir I would like to ask you a couple of more questions on the

18 basis of photos --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this surprised me to the extent

20 that it was indicated that the time available would be over now. I will

21 give you another five minutes.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite, thank you,

23 Mr. President. With the assistance of the usher, could you please come

24 over.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please assist, Mr. Usher.

Page 12567

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like us to place

2 these photos on the ELMO, three photos. No. Two photos, plus a couple

3 of others as well. No. Two photos. I correct myself. And meanwhile,

4 if we could get the picture --

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... exhibit, Mr.

6 Piletta-Zanin?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It is -- the

8 documents --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you give us the number, we have them for

10 the record.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The ERN number is 00 --

12 JUDGE ORIE: We have no ERN numbers available to the Bench, in

13 general.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am going to check this. I

15 think they have not been submitted by the Prosecution yet.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... not yet been

17 tendered and admitted. Are they not part of other P Exhibits which --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, well. Mr. President, I

19 can quite simply put them on the ELMO. This seems to me a policy which

20 is acceptable on occasion, and not tender them.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, I take it that I see from a

22 distance, that these photographs are part of perhaps a report or a photo

23 series, and then, of course, we cannot just put them on the ELMO and say

24 "just look at this photograph but I am not going to tell you from which

25 document it comes." I mean --

Page 12568

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the origin of

2 these pictures is a document I don't have a title for because I was in

3 Geneva tending to other business. I do have the ERN number for the

4 Prosecution, if I can I will, and if I can't I will move on to something

5 else.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... where it comes

7 from, otherwise the other party could not --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but these pictures come

9 from the Prosecution. There is a number there 00269225. 00269773. Thank

10 you very much.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please first give them to the

12 Bench.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is just the

14 first page.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the Prosecution this is part -- have you

16 identified what documents we are talking about?

17 MR. IERACE: The numbers seem to be incorrect, the numbers that

18 were given --

19 JUDGE ORIE: It is photo documentation which seems to relate to

20 Rada Koncara and the date is the 9th of 11, 1993, as far as I can see and

21 it seems that perhaps the report where it is part of --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I give up the

23 idea. I give up altogether. There is an ERN number, so it's perfectly,

24 apparently, it is not, but I give up altogether. It will be taken note

25 that the Prosecution does not seem be able to find the document on the

Page 12569

1 basis of the ERN number.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you just would have indicated

3 what is on the front page on the series of photographs, then it would have

4 been easy I take it to -- for the Prosecution to identify what document

5 that is. If I can do that in 30 seconds, approximately, then at least it

6 would assist the other party. You may use them if you want to, if you

7 indicate what is on the front page of the photo series so that the

8 Prosecution is in the position to identify what we are talking about.

9 And usually we indicate in advance what documents we are going to use.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The document that I have got

12 in front of me, well, for the sake of the Prosecution --

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to give it now, fine, but we are not

14 going to spend more time on that issue. So if you are in a position to

15 identify in such a way that the Chamber feels that the Prosecution could

16 easily retrieve it, fine, if not, please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is a document which comes

18 from the Prosecution, part of the photo documentation, I have got it in

19 Serbian, PredMet shelling location the street of Rade Koncara or rather

20 the square of Rade Koncara, Sarajevo, the date when the photo was taken,

21 the 9th of November, 1993. I would have liked for this picture, bearing

22 the number 225, to be submitted to the expert. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please put it on the ELMO, Mr. --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe it is P1386, but I

25 am really not sure, so I am not even going to say it.

Page 12570

1 Q. Sir, can you see here --

2 THE INTERPRETER: And could the speakers speak into the

3 microphone.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. A crater on a hard surface?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Can you see here what we normally call a burrow -- a fuse furrow?

8 A. I cannot see one from that photograph.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Is it not true sir, that when a 120 millimetre mortar hits a

11 certain spot, generally speaking, the area around the crater and the

12 crater itself are cleared of all debris?

13 A. Could you just pose the question again, please? I don't

14 understand the --

15 Q. Is it not true sir, that when a 120 millimetre shell explodes,

16 the crater itself is totally cleared of debris, it is blown away, the

17 debris is blown away?

18 A. The majority of debris will be blown away, but as far as we have

19 already discussed, sometimes the tail-fin will be there, sometimes the

20 fuse, and if the crater is deep enough, sometimes you will get some of the

21 shrapnel parts from the top of the body will sometimes still be in the

22 crater.

23 Q. Apart from the parts of the shell and the tail-fin, anything

24 else, that is to say anything that might have been either around or

25 within the crater, is it not true that it would be blown away by the

Page 12571

1 blast of the explosion and that the crater itself would be clear, cleared

2 of all debris? Apart from the tail-fin and so on?

3 A. Initially that can be the way. But because of the way the blast

4 works it is sometimes possible for an article to be blown up into the air

5 which of course settles back down on top of the crater.

6 Q. My very last question, sir, when you submitted your expertise,

7 were you told that the Serb forces on the one hand had relatively old

8 bombs and armaments, weapons, in general, yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 And as a consequence were you given any indication or any

12 information as to the various models of the bombs used by the Serb side;

13 yes or no?

14 A. I was not given any of that information. I have most of that

15 information as part of my work anyway back in my office in the UK.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see the interpreters, when you indicated

19 your last question, already translated as your very last question, but

20 that is perhaps because the words get a different meaning now and then.

21 Is there any need to cross-examine the witness Mr. Ierace -- to

22 re-examine the witness?

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like the witness

24 to do a diagram, perhaps the witness can be given a sheet of paper and a

25 pen. I have a sheet of paper and a pen, if you can't locate one.

Page 12572

1 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

2 Q. Sir, you have been asked a number of questions about the profile

3 of the fuse adapter. You have told us that certain parts were vertical

4 and other parts not. Could you please do a cross section of an adapter

5 showing us which parts are vertical and which parts are not. And after

6 you have done that, could you please place it on the ELMO.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. All right. Would you please now explain the diagram, now that we

9 can see it on the ELMO.

10 A. What you have there, you can see that the adapter, it's outer

11 dimensions, a conical-shaped to follow the curve of the body of the

12 round. It has two threads. The bottom one, which is that one there, is

13 what screws it into the top of the body of the round. The inner one up

14 here, which normally fits inside a centre chamber is the one which the

15 screw, the screw thread of the fuse will fit into so the fuse then will

16 fit down into the centre cylinder.

17 Q. In relation to the photograph that you marked on Friday --

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that is P3741, might that be

19 shown to the witness.

20 Q. Is that the one which has the pen markings on it?

21 A. Yes it does.

22 Q. All right. Could you briefly place that on the ELMO above the

23 diagram. Now I am going to ask you to indicate on your diagram where you

24 think the piece you have marked as number "1" may have come from.

25 A. Number one, due to its slightly larger diameter, has possibly come

Page 12573

1 from somewhere on one of the sides towards the base of the adapter due to

2 its slightly large diameter.

3 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and mark on your diagram the

4 area from where number 1 may possibly have come from, and put a "1"

5 alongside that blue-marked area.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And I think you indicated the exterior edge in your explanation.

8 Could you mark with the blue pen the relevant edge with number 1.

9 A. You mean the part where it is possible where this piece came from

10 towards the outside?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. All right. Now please place, if the court usher could place the

14 photograph back on the ELMO so that we can all remind ourselves of piece

15 number two, would you please now indicate on the diagram where piece

16 number two may have come from, in your opinion.

17 A. Due to its slightly smaller diameter, it has either come from the

18 same side, from just above number one, or, of course, from anywhere around

19 the circumference of the fuse adapter. So just for diagraphic sakes, I

20 pill put it on the same side.

21 Q. Please now return to the photograph, Mr. Usher, so we can all see

22 number 3. Yes. Thank you. Would you please now indicate where you say,

23 in your opinion, piece number three may have come from?

24 A. Piece number three, of course, is not shown on this diagram, as

25 that resembles the fuse cover on the end of the fuse, which would normally

Page 12574

1 be located when it was screwed into position at the end of the fuse which

2 would protrude out of the end.

3 Q. Would you please place a cross and a number three in the area that

4 you now indicate with the pointer?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. IERACE: That might now be taken away. I will tender that in

8 due course.

9 Q. Now, on Friday, you were asked a question do the effect of

10 whether you had been shown by the Prosecution a report which indicated in

11 relation to shelling incident number five, that the fire could have come

12 from either side of the confrontation line. And you said "the only

13 reports I have seen are the forensic and the other ones which I have

14 referred to in my report."

15 Do you have a copy of your report with you at the moment?

16 A. No, I don't

17 MR. IERACE: Might the witness -- perhaps we can do it from

18 memory to save time.

19 Q. In relation to shelling incident number five, did you indicate

20 three sources of information, A, being technical examination report dated

21 8 February 1994, followed by an ERN number; B, UNPROFOR investigation

22 report dated 15 February 1994 followed by an ERN number; and C, witness

23 statement B supply dated 27th of February 1996; is that correct. Does

24 that accord with your memory?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 12575

1 MR. IERACE: All right. I ask the witness be shown P2261 which

2 has the same ERN number on page one, as appears in the witness's report

3 alongside Reference B.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Is this a previously admitted document?

5 MR. IERACE: Yes, it is in fact the exhibit which I obtained

6 earlier from Madam Registrar.

7 Q. Now, I have placed two yellow tabs on a document. Would you go

8 to the first tab, that is the one closest to the first page, and look at

9 the bottom of that page and could you please read the last sentence.

10 Perhaps you could read it out loud.

11 A. Sorry. "The distance of origin of fire clearly overlaps each

12 side of the confrontation line by 2000 metres. Both parties are

13 known --"

14 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please slow down.

15 THE WITNESS: "Both parties are known to have 120 millimetre

16 mortars and the bombs to go along with them. The team has no

17 reason to believe that either party does not have access to the type of

18 ammunition reported in paragraph 12. There is insufficient physical

19 evidence to prove that one party or the other fired the mortar bomb. The

20 mortar bomb in question could have been fired by either side."


22 Q. All right. Now in relation to the relation to the phrase

23 "insufficient physical evidence" did the UNPROFOR investigation report

24 consider the evidence extracted from the mortar crater and the immediate

25 surrounds of the mortar impact point?

Page 12576

1 A. From reading the report, the UNPROFOR team did their inspection a

2 number of days after the original investigation was carried out, and they

3 did not have all the evidence available.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes re-examination. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: So I might now return D61 and from the bar table and

8 also P2261A. I am grateful. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions for you.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Could the report of Mr. Higgs be handed up to you. Please have a

13 look on Annex A which is Captain Houdet, crater analysis.

14 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, that actually is not part of the report

15 of this witness, but rather part of the second filing on the 4th of June

16 titled "Prosecutor's submission of addendum to the expert report of

17 Richard Higgs." So I don't know whether the witness would have that.

18 THE WITNESS: It is not in this one here.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It is P3734A.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am sorry, but in my papers, it is attached

21 to the report. I don't know.

22 THE WITNESS: I have it, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In the conclusions, it says, in number two,

24 that at the minimum angle, the minimum range is 1.120 metres for 81

25 millimetre mortar and 1.340 metres for 120 millimetre mortar. In your

Page 12577












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12578

1 opinion in this report, it is possible to conclude that at another angle

2 the distance could be longer or shorter or.

3 A. It cannot be any longer, Your Honour. He has used the minimum

4 angle of descent of 45 degrees to come up with a minimum range of 1120.

5 That is the maximum range of the mortar. Minimum angle of descent gives

6 maximum range. So to get a shorter range the angle of descent would be

7 higher.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Has Captain Houdet says the angle of range

9 and descent cannot be determined.

10 A. Because on this case there was no fuse furrow. He wasn't able to

11 ascertain the accurate angle of descent.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That is my question. Is it possible to have

13 another angle of descent in this case?

14 A. Yes it is.

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: If this is the minimum, is it possible to

16 have a, let's say, maximum or intermediate?

17 A. Yes it is, Your Honour. This is the minimum of 45, but anywhere

18 between there and approximately an angle of 85, 90 degrees, anywhere in

19 between.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: All right. Thank you.

21 Now, can we go to your report and I think that I am not wrong.

22 Your report, page nine.

23 A. Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: When you are talking of, let's say the report

25 on the incident of the 22nd of January the third paragraph, the second

Page 12579

1 and third paragraphs, well what you are saying there is that your

2 conclusion is different of that of Verdy because the Verdy report was done

3 the next day.

4 A. That's correct Your Honour.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: And the conclusion of the forensic

6 investigation is that two mortar bombs of 82 millimetres were fired and

7 one of 120 millimetres landed on the other side of the buildings.

8 A. Correct Your Honour.

9 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Is that correct, and Verdy says -- well you

10 say that the data, I mean that this data do not make sense, 120

11 millimetres instead of 82 millimetres. What do you mean by that?

12 A. From the crater analysis done by the forensic team at the time,

13 the craters do not appear through their size and shape to be 120

14 millimetre craters.

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: But according to the forensic investigation

16 report, three bombs were fired.

17 A. Correct.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Two 82 millimetres and one 120 millimetre.

19 All right. Thank you. Could you please have a look on the set of

20 maps -- I think that -- this set of maps. I don't know which is the

21 number.

22 JUDGE ORIE: P3727.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I don't have that number anywhere in my copy.

24 Please go to the incident numbered three. We have two spots there, A and

25 B. Which is the distance between those two spots?

Page 12580

1 A. Distance between the two falls of shot is just over 100 metres.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Let's have a look on the origin of the red

3 lines. Which is the distance between that place and the green line?

4 A. Approximately one thousand metres.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Are we looking at the same place?

6 A. Along the lines of fire, Your Honour --

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Not the dotted line, but the hard line, the

8 red hard line.

9 A. Going back along those lines to the force of shot it is

10 approximately one thousand metres.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Until the green line? Please show me. Not

12 from there, from the beginning. From there to the next -- well, not

13 the -- yes, to the left there is a green line. The distance -- not the

14 other one. The red line and the green line close to it.

15 A. From the distance --

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No not from there from here.

17 A. From there to there?

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: To the other side.

19 A. From there across to there, Your Honour?


21 A. It is approximately 300 metres.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: 300 metres. I should say a little bit less

23 because if the other one is 100, it is more or less the same distance.

24 But anyway this -- this spot is the origin of the fire?

25 A. That is the direction it was given in the forensic report.

Page 12581

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So that is the place, well the supposed place

2 from which the fire, the mortar was fired or the mortars?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: All right. Thank you.

5 No further questions, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: With the help of the interpreters, we would like to

7 conclude before the break. Judge El Mahdi has one question for you, and I

8 might have one as well. And we will then have a break.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 [Interpretation] Could you please go to page 10 and page 11 of

11 your report. If we read that page 11, the very last paragraph, I am

12 going to quote in English: [In English] "Possible to hit the market with

13 a single initially sited round it is more likely to be the case if the

14 target was prerecorded."

15 [Interpretation] Can you see that? So my question is in relation

16 to the following: You explained that this was not about -- just about

17 calculating the angle of firing, but it should also take -- it should also

18 be taken into consideration the weather conditions, wind, if I understand

19 you correctly, and the temperature.

20 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if you are firing from a

22 distance at about 2 kilometres or more on an elevated ground, so the

23 temperature would be higher than the centre of the city, what would be

24 the accuracy, since you say that the probability is quite high, that a

25 single shell would hit one target as long as it is prerecorded, as you

Page 12582

1 say.

2 So, in order to target an objective -- a target in the city with

3 the weather conditions and the buildings that are high, medium height,

4 temperature a little higher than where the temperature -- where the

5 firing comes from, can you give us an approximation of on the hypothesis

6 of the probabilities?

7 A. First thing, Your Honour, to be aware of, is the temperature is

8 only taken at the firing position. Because it's the temperature that

9 effects the burning speed of the propellant and effects the range. So

10 temperature of the target is not taken into account. On the probability

11 of hitting the target would depend upon when the target was last

12 prerecorded, and if they had re-recorded if the weather had possibly

13 changed. If a mortar had fired some time previous in the day or through

14 the night and got more up-to-date information, then a target the size of

15 the market, you would very easily hit with one round.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] By taking into consideration the

17 wind, the force of wind, the strength which could change, it would be a

18 favourable wind or not favourable wind?

19 A. The wind is always the one factor which must be taken into

20 account because it can effect mortar rounds very badly. That is why, if

21 you were going to try and engage this target, and you had not fired for

22 some time, you would ideally want to fire some time that morning or some

23 time before, because then you could calculate the errors the wind is

24 giving you and then take them into account.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, let us assume that there was

Page 12583

1 no firing during the day. So it was during the day or perhaps the

2 previous night, there was no firing and the possibility, however,

3 diminishes then?

4 A. Yes it does, Your Honour. But if you know what the weather

5 conditions are, if you have a weather forecast of wind speed and

6 direction, you can still calculate those figures into your calculation.

7 It is not as accurate as being able to fire but it still means that your

8 first round should land possibly within 100 metres of what you are firing

9 at, straight away.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I have two questions for you. I will start with the

12 first one in the meantime. Madam Registrar could you or Mr. Usher, wait

13 for one second.

14 I am taking you to page 12 of your report. The very last three

15 lines where you say "this witness was in a good position to hear mortar

16 fire in the vicinity." And then "if there was no other mortar fire at

17 that particular time, it follows that the evidence of the hearing of the

18 mortar being fired could be used to determine the likely location of its

19 source."

20 Could you explain this to me.

21 A. If I remember correctly, the witness's location is in the lower

22 ground, that high feature that we spoke about. Because of the direction

23 that he spoke about, impossible to get range from that or an exact bearing

24 from what he has said. But it helped me to eliminate the chance of a

25 mortar being down the location where he was and possibly more towards the

Page 12584

1 direction of the city. The direction that he ascertained put the mortar

2 behind that high feature.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And the first line "the witness was in a good

4 position to hear mortar firing in the vicinity." Would that be true for

5 everyone? I mean, if I would say that I am in a good position to hear

6 mortar fire from my vicinity would that be always true or?

7 A. No, it is not always going to be true. The -- saying in his

8 vicinity, the area that he was in below the escarpment, I used that

9 information to try and eliminate the areas rather than locate precise

10 areas. If --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it was in his vicinity.

12 A. If it was in his vicinity where he was --


14 A. -- a lot closer to him, he would have come up with a completely

15 different direction.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So now I do understand that if you say "it was really

17 close to him" he would have heard that in a different way and therefore it

18 would not have been that close.

19 A. Correct, Your Honour

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I better understand you.

21 Mr. Usher could you please, I sometimes make a sketch as well in

22 order to clarify myself. Could it please be put on the ELMO.

23 You explained to us that the two pieces you indicated on this

24 photograph might have come from one, that would be the larger diameter or

25 perhaps the other one from indicated two, the smaller diameter. But we

Page 12585

1 were talking about the internal diameters and I pointed with two small

2 arrows to -- as a matter of fact, I copied your sketch -- where I see no

3 difference in internal diameters. So could you please explain how what

4 you told us would be an explanation for the difference in internal

5 diameters.

6 A. What I have shown on the drawing, Your Honour, is the outer part

7 of the adapter is this part here which of course is cone shaped and gets

8 smaller towards the top. But inside, there is a chamber, a fuse chamber

9 which is shown by these parallel lines. This is separate to the adapter

10 normally fitted inside. When the round explodes, this after will

11 fragmentate and go somewhere different. So you are then left with the

12 parallel chamber separating from the outer wall, which of course is a

13 conical-shaped, so you would expect to see in the shrapnel, small pieces

14 towards the top, larger pieces towards the bottom. If you are lucky

15 enough to find any pieces from this part here, then they would have

16 exactly the same internal diameter. But from the picture, I haven't seen

17 any pieces that represent that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So are you telling us that the two vertical lines in

19 the centre of the adapter would also indicate that these are different

20 parts of materiel fitted in -- this is a separate part, yes.

21 So what I suggested with my dotted line to the right that there

22 might be differences in the interior of the adapter is to some extent

23 true, although not in the way I suggested it by the dotted line, but that

24 the upper part that we have -- well, it is still not quite clear to me,

25 how this then functioned. You may, if you want to, adapt my -- because I

Page 12586

1 still need a different internal diameter at X 1 and X 2.

2 A. Different manufacturers of fuses of course have different designs

3 for this. You have the parallel one which I show here where you have a

4 separate like cylinder which screws into the inside. But sometimes you

5 may find one which is wider at the top, cuts in and then goes down, which

6 again would still give you the same problem with the shrapnel, you have

7 thin pieces at the top and the larger pieces at the bottom.


9 A. So you do get parallel ones and you do get ones which have a step

10 on them. It just depends on the type of manufacturer.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so then can be in the same adapter different

12 internal diameters according to their construction.

13 A. Yes

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before you leave that, I intend

15 to tender this sketch because of the value of the witness' responses.

16 Because I respectfully suggest that some of the points which the witness

17 has indicated be captured for the transcript, in particular, the last

18 response of the witness indicating a step, could be indicated by the

19 witness drawing that step onto the diagram rather than explaining it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although -- I copied it from the witness

21 anyhow so there will be no intellectual rights as far as the drawing is

22 concerned.

23 You may indicate on this sketch what you just indicated to us.

24 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

Page 12587

1 you said you had two questions. I don't know whether it was your last

2 question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Very last question.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I have the leave to ask

5 another question in relation to what you have asked?

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... matter which has

7 been extensively dealt with by the Defence perhaps not completely so

8 extensively, so one question -- so both your last and your very last

9 question on this issue.

10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, do you know, yes or no, if the Yugoslav

12 manufacturer had ever made weapons from which the adapter -- of which the

13 adapter would have been composed of elements that would allow it to give

14 two interior diameters on this relevant piece; yes or no?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then this will be a -- have you got a number in

17 mind, Mr. Ierace. We will do that later. We will first have the break.

18 Mr. Higgs, this concludes your examination in this court. I want

19 to thank you for coming and answering all the questions both of the

20 parties and of the Bench, and I hope that you will be in time for what

21 you intended to do this afternoon. Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Usher, would you escort Mr. Higgs out of the courtroom and we

23 will have a break -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Your

25 Honour, before we proceed with the examination-in-chief of

Page 12588

1 Mr. Gavrankapetanovic, the Defence would like to ask for a few minutes

2 after the next break in relation to an explanation regarding the decision

3 of your Chamber in relation to Rule 92 bis when we are talking about the

4 examination-in-chief of Mr. Gavrankapetanovic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will have a break until 10 minutes past

6 1.00 and the apologise of the Chamber for the long time this part of the

7 session took. The shorter will be the next one. Thank you very much.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I suggest that we first deal with the

11 documents regarding Mr. Higgs, that I will then give you the opportunity

12 to ask or tell us what you have in mind. Yes.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before we do the documents, might I

14 make a quick observation in relation to the questions asked by Judge

15 Nieto-Navia in relation to distances on that map. Might I remind you of

16 evidence from this witness in relation to the ability to measure

17 distances on the coloured maps, as opposed to the black and white map.

18 The black and white map can be used accurately, but not the coloured ones,

19 because the grids are not square. Rather than waste time with

20 re-examination, I thought I would simply point out that earlier evidence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there is some perspective distortion in these

22 maps. Yes. Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am

24 surprised by this kind of observation. This is something we know. This

25 is a waste of time, and this is the best demonstration of the fact that

Page 12589

1 these maps are not good.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope that, as a matter of fact, this was to

3 some extent a comment on a witness statement which could have perhaps

4 better we addressed at a later stage when we have to evaluate it.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you could indicate exactly where this could be

7 found, Mr. Ierace, then the Chamber would like to have the source. On

8 the other hand, in general I would say comment on witness statements,

9 this is not the appropriate time to do it. But, you immediately took

10 over and commented on it as well saying that it was -- the maps are not

11 right. I think we should save argument for the appropriate moment. But

12 the information asked for, we will receive that from Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: It is Exhibit P3644 RH which also shows the green

14 lines and the directions of fire. Thank you Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you guide us through the

16 documents in relation to the expert witness, Mr. Higgs.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed, Mr. Ierace, that you did not only

19 intend to tender my last copied sketch but even some others which I

20 invented entirely myself. But that is not the issue. If you would like

21 to do so, perhaps do that now, so that we can deal with it when going

22 through the documents tendered.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I seek to tender MFI 13, 14 and

24 15. 15 in particular, I think it was, was a subject of comment by the

25 witness and therefore the appropriate evidentiary base is laid. That

Page 12590

1 would be exhibits P3744, P3745, and P3746.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 3744, 45, and 46 and I think we already have a

3 number for the sketch with the adapter. So then, please, Madam Registrar,

4 would you assist us.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3734A, Prosecutor's submission of

6 addendum to the expert report of Richard Higgs; Exhibit P3734A.1, B/C/S

7 translation; Exhibit P3734, expert report; Exhibit P3734.1, B/C/S

8 translation; Exhibit P3741, picture marked by witness; Exhibit P3742,

9 diagram drawn and marked by witness; Exhibit P3743, diagram; Exhibit

10 P3744, document previously marked for identification number 13; Exhibit

11 P3745, document previously marked for identification number 14; Exhibit

12 P3746, document previously marked for identification number 15; Exhibit

13 P3644.RH, map marked by witness --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President in relation to

16 these maps and in particular this map, the Defence intends to make an

17 objection for the following reason: That is, that in this case, the

18 locations of the areas where the firing came from are certainly important

19 and this type of exercise should be done before the Chamber, particularly

20 when we are talking about the areas that are close to combat lines. By

21 just giving information from one side which, when we are talking about

22 people who are experts, I don't think that this is done fairly and I

23 believe that we are not coming close enough to the truth. That is the

24 reason why this map, having been pre-marked by the witness on the basis

25 of some information that were given to him by the Prosecution only, and

Page 12591

1 we did see that some of the information given did not relate to the

2 actual firing tables and that is what the witness himself had said. And

3 I don't think that they can be accepted as such. Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: In general, the Chamber accepts the pre-marked maps

6 if they are marked by that witness, if they have been disclosed in time,

7 if there has been an opportunity to cross-examine the witness on the

8 correctness of the markings he made. And, of course, the Chamber will

9 have to assess finally the probative value of the markings on the maps.

10 So the objection is denied.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D167, picture of grenade and fuse;

12 Exhibit D168 drawing of adapter; D169, picture of adapters; D170,

13 photocopy of a portion of D169.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to so much of those four

15 documents which has not been explained or the subject of evidence. In

16 that regard, I especially object to virtually everything on D170. The

17 only question that was asked of the witness in relation to that diagram

18 was for him to confirm that the external size of the item marked by "A"

19 is smaller than the item marked by "B." No basis of the circles or other

20 calculations or even other diagrams on that sheet was explained or the

21 subject of cross-examination. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. To

24 exclude these exhibits that would really not to want to have the truth

25 exposed. The truth is that there are two pieces and the inside --

Page 12592

1 internal comparisons are obviously not the same -- I am just answering,

2 thank you. I am not going to answer.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is an objection of a

4 technical nature. And of course I do understand that both parties will

5 only tender those documents that would pertain to the truth, I mean,

6 otherwise, that means I would deal with nonprofessionals, so that needs no

7 explanation. The technical issue, I would like to have your response on

8 that because that is what the Chamber has to decide upon, not whether you

9 are, at this moment, trying to seek the truth with these documents because

10 that goes without saying.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So, therefore, I will

12 continue from where I stopped. These pieces, these exhibits establish a

13 fact which is the difference in diameter on two elements that were

14 formally identified by this expert witness as being the pieces of the

15 adapter. And these pieces show what is the adapter and what is its

16 position on the shell how an adapter looks when it is presented in cross

17 section, and on the basis of the photographs that we were given, what are

18 the radius differences, that is, the differences in diameter.

19 Now, Mr. President, if tomorrow our expert comes to confirm and

20 to claim that there was only one type of fuse in the Yugoslav Army, that

21 is, one single type with a vertical chamber, and not with a different

22 type of chamber, then it will be definitely established that there are

23 two internal diameters while theoretically there should only be one. And

24 these are -- these exhibits are just the beginning of demonstrating this

25 evidence. Thank you.

Page 12593

1 JUDGE ORIE: You say the importance is the demonstration of the

2 difference in diameter and that is the only thing the witness testified

3 about. I think the complaint was that the Chamber should only admit these

4 documents to the extent that they indicate a difference in internal

5 diameter. So that is, as a matter of fact, is mainly a matter of

6 assessing the probative value of the documents and not much more than

7 that. So therefore, the Chamber will admit into evidence these

8 documents.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. President, but

10 the diagram of the shell is not just showing this difference in diameter,

11 but also the exact position of the adapter, that could be only just one

12 diameter possible.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this last part is a comment. But the documents

14 are the -- the Chamber will assess the probative value of these documents

15 and they are admitted into evidence. Being there are no other objections,

16 all the other documents just mentioned by Madam Registrar admitted into

17 evidence as well.

18 Ms. Pilipovic, you would like to address the Chamber in view of

19 the testimony of the witness Gavrankapetanovic.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I am going to do it

21 instead of my colleague, Mr. President. It seems to us that the

22 testimony of the witness, and I have conferred with my colleague earlier,

23 and I read the beginning of the examination this morning, it seems to us

24 that this intervention goes beyond the framework that was given by your

25 order of the 26th of July 2002 by stating the conditions of application

Page 12594

1 of Rule 92 bis in relation to this witness as well, and that were

2 supposed to guarantee to us about half an hour of maximum of

3 cross-examination.

4 And this is for this file, which was clearly marked in your

5 decision. Now I believe that we -- this has gone well beyond this.

6 There were many questions asked and a number of victims in Markale and so

7 on, and the Defence has some questions, the Defence is wondering, that is

8 what we wanted to say. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gavrankapetanovic is not testifying in this

10 court on the base of 92 bis. His statement has not been admitted into

11 evidence. I think the major issue is that Mr. Gavrankapetanovic was

12 presented in writing as an authenticating witness and being called as

13 a viva voce witness, his testimony goes beyond what is authentication of

14 documents. And, as a matter of fact, I see that the Prosecution is

15 seeking admission into evidence of other documents, not those documents

16 specifically mentioned and also dealt with in our decision that were or

17 were not in need of any further authentification. So, therefore, the half

18 of hour, of course, is not valid because this is not the way of presenting

19 the evidence.

20 So I would say the general rule applies. Could we then continue

21 the examination of Mr. Gavrankapetanovic. Mr. Usher, could you please

22 escort the witness in. It will be very short, but I would nevertheless

23 like to -- perhaps, I am wondering, there is another issue we have to

24 deal with first. And it might not be of any use any more to -- but let's

25 see.

Page 12595

1 General Galic, as I indicated before, there would be a

2 possibility to sit on Thursday longer than usual. Your counsel have

3 indicated that you -- that your health situation would not -- would be

4 such that we at least first should consult you to see what would be

5 possible for you. And I would like to know what would approximately

6 be -- approximately be the limits. So we are not talking about the whole

7 week, every day, we are just talking about Thursday and extending the

8 hours. Then I will say it will then be considerably -- would a normal

9 day be approximately four and a half hours in court apart from the

10 breaks. That would be then, well, let's say, at least six, perhaps even

11 seven. I would like to hear your views on that.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honour, and thank

13 you for consulting me as to the length of the hearing for Thursday.

14 That's my understanding, that you refer to Thursday only. Well, I can

15 tell you that in spite of everything, I did my best in trying to keep up

16 so far, and with the help of the doctors and the medicines, it is

17 functioning. To what extent, well, I don't know, but apparently it is

18 working at the moment.

19 I would tend to say that is a bit too long. I am not at all

20 certain, considering the way I feel today, and I mean, you know these

21 things may change. Sometimes I am in no pain at all and on others days I

22 don't feel quite so good. As to whether I will be sufficiently well on

23 Thursday to be able to stay here for such a long time, well, if I feel I

24 am not up to it, I will let you know. I hope you will allow me. But if

25 there is no choice, and if that is your decision, for us to stay here all

Page 12596

1 day on Thursday, I will do my best. I will try and be here. Well, thank

2 you. I mean I have nothing else to say at the moment.

3 JUDGE ORIE: General Galic, it is not a hard decision at this

4 moment as you will have heard, the Prosecution asked to seek additional

5 time this week and we try to find it, but we have not yet decided. That

6 is exactly the reason why I am asking you. There would be a -- there

7 would be a possibility of various approaches. One would be, let's just

8 start on Thursday and see how far we come and if you say, no, I really

9 now need a break, and then to say or that you say, this is for today is

10 the maximum I can do, that would be a way of just seeing where we come and

11 starting on Thursday.

12 Another opportunity would be, and then of course, I would have to

13 look first at the Prosecution, to see whether there are specific aspects

14 of the case presentation which could be dealt with in such a way, for

15 example, that you could follow it, perhaps not in the courtroom, but

16 visually and by audio but in a more comfortable position. That would

17 still ask your concentration, but would not ask your position in sitting

18 and perhaps giving -- giving your back a bit more rest so you might be in

19 a different literal position then. So I am trying to find out what would

20 be possible.

21 If you would say, and if you would look at the second option, then

22 I would like to know who exactly has been scheduled for the second part

23 of Thursday. If you say "no, I prefer to see how far we can come on

24 Thursday," then, of course, I would not and the Chamber would not have to

25 enquire into the schedule of the Prosecutor for Thursday because then we

Page 12597

1 will just start and you will indicate where you would need an additional

2 break or where you would say, "well, this is what my physical condition

3 allows me" and we will carefully listen to you. So I am thinking of one

4 of these two approaches. Would you have yourself any preference, that

5 you would say, well, if we would try to sit more on Thursday I would

6 prefer to be present and indicate when I would like to have an extra

7 break; or to indicate where my physical condition does not allow me any

8 more to follow the proceedings; or would you rather say could we find a

9 solution where I could follow from a distance with perhaps a possibility

10 of communication with counsel or intermediatory communication with

11 counsel.

12 Then of course I would have to explore the possibilities, but,

13 would you have any preference?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what sort of

17 communication are you suggesting? Because you can tell that the

18 communication channels are open between us and, well if we want to give

19 you a red light, so to say, it would be a bit difficult. So what sort of

20 communication do you intend?

21 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment it is not a matter of give the right

22 light -- the green light, I would say to the Chamber, or the red light,

23 but we could consider that. Of course, we would like not to have any --

24 any communication between here and the place where General Galic would

25 be. I am first asking for the preference. I asked General Galic what

Page 12598

1 his preference would be and then, according to his preference, we would

2 like to further investigate what would be possible. So may I ask you

3 what your preference would be, General Galic, to give it a try and see

4 where we come, or to -- that we try to create specific conditions that,

5 even outside the courtroom, you might be able to follow the proceedings,

6 but in a more comfortable position?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am a soldier and I

8 prefer simple solutions. The simplest solution would be to be present

9 here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then see where we come?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe my answer was clear.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will take that into consideration when

13 giving a decision on the schedule for next Thursday. Thank you very

14 much.

15 Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have received an understanding, we

17 understand that Ewa Tabeau wishes to know whether she will be recalled.

18 I think she might be anxious to be dismissed because of other reasons.

19 Is the Trial Chamber in a position at this stage to indicate definitely

20 one way or the other?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would the Defence agree with excusing Madam Tabeau?

22 I see one Defence counsel nodding "yes" and the other one "no," but it

23 must have different meanings.

24 Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague and

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1 myself have decided to cross-examine the witness and it would take up to

2 15 or 20 minutes. It could be tomorrow.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence must have a chance to cross-examine Ewa

5 Tabeau on the additional part of her report. You asked for 15 to 20

6 minutes. The Chamber takes it that you could perform that in 15 minutes,

7 Ms. Pilipovic. And that would be an appropriate time in view of the

8 material presented.

9 Is there anything else at this very moment? If not, we will

10 adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

12 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

13 the 30th day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.