Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13093

1 Friday 20 September 2002

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 1.59 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Having concluded the hearing on the motion under

7 Article 98 bis, we will now continue with a Status Conference. Before

8 starting with the Status Conference, I would like to stress that it may be

9 clear to the parties that only today the Chamber heard the oral arguments

10 on the motion, that we still have to deliberate on the decision to be

11 taken, and that therefore, what we are discussing now is just for

12 preparing for the situation, and not one of us knows at this moment

13 whether this situation ever will exist, that the motion will be wholly or

14 partially denied. So we are preparing in case of that the Defence will

15 have to present its case. I wanted to make this quite clear, and it is

16 mainly practical matters that we are dealing with.

17 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence is

19 conscious and aware of that and we thank you for it. Just simply that I

20 would like to ask you for your leave to leave as of 14.13. I have already

21 told Madam Registrar I have a plane to catch. And with your leave, I

22 would leave, and of course my colleagues will remain here and the Defence

23 will be perfectly well represented.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to work as efficiently as possible, but you

25 are excused if you have to catch a plane. I would first like to have a

Page 13094

1 list of some items the Chamber would like to raise and then, of course,

2 there would be an opportunity for the parties to raise any additional

3 necessary at that moment.

4 I first would like to go back to what happened before the summer

5 recess. We have 92 bis statements, some of them tendered. They were all

6 filed under the P Exhibit Number 3663 and then later some letters were

7 added. The Chamber would like the Prosecution especially to retender the

8 partially admitted statements, and then redact it in such a way that taken

9 out the parts not admitted, so that the admitted parts of the statements

10 are remaining and they would be retendered. And then giving the following

11 exhibit numbering, that would be, Madam Registrar, P3663C, I think we

12 start. This especially in respect of the Witness Soubirou and Rakic

13 partially admitted.

14 There is another remaining issue. Exhibits PT289 is a booklet of

15 which the Prosecution asked the Registry to return the original to the

16 witness. It has been dealt with. We have given a decision that a copy

17 would be made of that booklet and that the original would be returned to

18 the witness. As far as I understand, the original seems to not be the in

19 the hand of the Registry at this moment. I don't know whether this needs

20 any specific attention at this moment. No, if you say that it doesn't

21 need any specific attention, then I take it that the problem have been

22 solved.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, but we are looking elsewhere.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, I would like to turn into private session for

25 the next issue we have to deal with that relates to the past.

Page 13095

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Page 13097

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now again.

7 In your filing of the 19th of September, it appears that all the

8 documents have been disclosed to the Prosecution, so that you have

9 fulfilled -- that the Defence fulfilled its obligation fully at this very

10 moment. Of course, apart from the ongoing obligations, since there is

11 reciprocal disclosure to continue. But as it stands now, everything has

12 been disclosed to the Prosecution. The Prosecution does not agree.

13 Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Defence and the Prosecution met

15 yesterday afternoon. We informed the Defence that we have not received

16 the 16 newspaper articles. We have not received two of the six books.

17 And we also have not received a reasonably large number of documents which

18 appear in the exhibit list. We have given the Defence a list of those

19 documents, and we are told by the Defence that by this coming Monday, the

20 23rd of September, we will have a list of the newspaper articles. And in

21 due course, we will have disclosed to us the two additional books, and we

22 will receive a response in relation to the number of other documents.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution

25 and the Defence had a meeting yesterday. We were speaking of newspaper

Page 13098

1 articles. The Defence is of the position that they have already disclosed

2 them to the Prosecution. However, I don't have the documentation

3 confirming when this was disclosed, and this is why I told the Prosecution

4 that I will verify which documents have been disclosed so far. I believe

5 that these newspaper articles have been disclosed, together with the two

6 missing books that have not been found by the Prosecution yet.

7 Now, as far as the list of the documents is concerned, the

8 Prosecution gave us a list of the documents that they believe are

9 missing. And I promised my colleagues I would verify this and inform them

10 on Monday exactly when the newspaper articles and two books were

11 disclosed, as well as the list of documents that the Prosecution claims

12 they are missing. So, on Monday I will contact my colleagues with further

13 information regarding this.

14 Another matter that we touched upon is the translation of

15 exhibits. The Defence has translated some of the exhibits. If we are

16 going to touch upon these later, then I will refrain from speaking on this

17 issue.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I have exhibits as the next issue on my list. I

19 would first try to finish with disclosure, as such. So I take it that

20 there is a constructive cooperation between the parties, and that the

21 still remaining could be solved in relatively short time.

22 Then we come to the exhibit list. First of all, I noticed that -

23 and I think it was done on the request of the Registry - all the

24 exhibits -- I should say, as a matter of fact, documents, because they

25 become exhibits once they are tendered and admitted, but all the documents

Page 13099

1 have been prenumbered, at least we see on the list that they have all got

2 numbers. So from now on, the list of exhibits admitted will not be in the

3 subsequent order, but according to the prenumbering that has been made on

4 the list at this very moment.

5 I understood that as far as the exhibits are concerned, there were

6 no objections by the Prosecution at this moment on the authenticity of the

7 documents. At the same time I noticed this morning that you, Mr. Ierace,

8 made an observation as far as authenticity not even be checked. What is

9 the position of the Prosecution on authenticity?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, on a number of occasions over the last

11 six months, I have made requests of the Defence, both Mr. Piletta-Zanin

12 and Madam Pilipovic, in order to ascertain the authenticity of the SRK

13 documents which have been disclosed by them to us, such as, I have

14 requested the opportunity - which I am entitled to under Rule 66 - to see

15 and examine the originals. I have also requested information as to where

16 the documents were found.

17 On each of the numerous occasions I have made that request, I have

18 been told that they would get back to me and that never happened. I was,

19 therefore, surprised to see that there was no issue as to authenticity.

20 At the meeting yesterday, I made it clear that the position of the

21 Prosecution is that we cannot acknowledge the authenticity of the

22 documents unless we have such information made available to us and an

23 opportunity to make our own enquiries. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the authenticity issue is not settled yet.

25 Ms. Pilipovic.

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Page 13101

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what my colleague

2 just said, that we discussed the authenticity of documents yesterday. In

3 relation to this, I would like to tell you that I contacted my

4 investigators regarding this. From the very beginning of this trial, I

5 have informed the Trial Chamber that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was

6 disbanded after the Dayton Agreement. And I also told you that the

7 documentation of the corps could be found all over the territory of

8 Republika Srpska.

9 All of the documents that the Defence has disclosed during the

10 past 18 months to the Prosecution were initially obtained by our

11 investigators, and the originals of these documents can be found in

12 Banja Luka in the main depository. My investigators have told me that the

13 documents they found in the field were found in Nevesinje Pale, Rogatica

14 Pale, and there is other places. Therefore, the documents that are in

15 possession of the Defence and that had been disclosed to us -- by us to

16 the Prosecution, the originals of these documents are with the military

17 authorities in Banja Luka. Therefore, my colleagues can gain access to

18 all of these documents in Banja Luka.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What you are telling us is that you have no originals

20 available. You are under an obligation -- I think it is not under

21 Rule 66, but under Rule 67(C) where it says if the Defence has made a

22 request under 66(B), The Prosecution should be entitled to respect any

23 books, et cetera. That is Rule 67(C), That you may inspect the copies in

24 the hands of the Defence, but I also do understand that copies have been

25 made and have been made available to you. And for the originals, that you

Page 13102

1 should apply for access in Banja Luka. But at least you indicated where

2 the documents you copied for your own file are kept at this -- where these

3 documents are kept, and you say in Banja Luka in the general storage.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the copies of the

5 documents that were disclosed by the Defence were obtained from our

6 investigators. And I told you that the originals of these documents can

7 be found in Banja Luka in the Main Staff there.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we sufficiently then discussed the

9 issue of authenticity. Of course, it is of no use to go through the

10 authenticity of all the documents at this very moment. We will see what

11 happens when some or all of these documents will be tendered into evidence

12 and then see whether there is any authenticity objection remaining.

13 Then the next issue translation.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, do I understand you well that all the documents you

15 intend to tender into evidence are translated by now?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the majority of the

17 documents have been translated. The Defence is still trying to ensure

18 that the documents that will be tendered during the Defence case are

19 translated.

20 Yesterday, I agreed in the discussion with my colleagues. I heard

21 from them that they are able to provide assistance in translating these

22 documents. Therefore, we agreed that some of the documents that the

23 Defence intends to introduce during the first weeks of our case, will be

24 delivered to our colleagues so that they can assist us in translating

25 these documents. I believe that this is what we agreed on yesterday, if I

Page 13103

1 properly understood my colleagues.

2 At any rate, we will do our best to have the documents translated,

3 those that we intend to tender during our case, and delivered to our

4 colleagues within the prescribed time of seven days before we intend to

5 tender them.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us any idea at this moment,

7 80 per cent or 60 per cent or 95 per cent of the documents that you intend

8 to tender are translated? Just an approximate idea.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that we

10 have 50 per cent translated yet. However, the Defence believes that we

11 will be able to comply with the ruling of this Trial Chamber, and to

12 forward the documents seven days prior to tendering them. We have been

13 assured by the Prosecution that they will try to assist us in having these

14 documents translated.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, it is the rule not later than seven

16 days; that is a different thing than seven days before. The earlier, the

17 better. So if there are any documents at this moment that you know

18 already that you will tender, provide them already for translation so that

19 the parties have an opportunity to -- that the Prosecution has an

20 opportunity to study them already. And also keep in mind that --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is what we arranged,

22 Your Honour, with the other side. I think that as early as Monday we will

23 be able to indicate which documents on the list that we discussed will be

24 used during the first few weeks of our case.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may have notice in the Scheduling Order

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Page 13105

1 that the Chamber is specifically concerned about timely translation. So

2 let's -- unless the Prosecution has any further submissions to make in

3 this respect, let's just for a moment forget about the detailed written

4 reports on the efforts you have made, because I -- as the Chamber sees, a

5 lot of progress has already been made.

6 But if there is any additional submission to be made, Mr. Ierace,

7 please do so.

8 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President. I want to be crystal clear

9 on this issue of translations so that the Defence problem doesn't become

10 the Prosecution problem.

11 As I understand it, 130 of the Defence documents have been

12 translated. And we were given copies of those yesterday, and they are the

13 first 130 documents on the list which was filed yesterday. I offered to

14 assist the Defence on this basis: That we could perhaps have a language

15 assistant prepare a rough translation of the documents, not a draft

16 translation and not a formal translation, and we would be more than happy

17 to make those translations available to the Defence and the Trial Chamber.

18 We could not do them all in a short space of time, and therefore,

19 if they -- if the Defence, if it did not imperil their case, were prepared

20 to tell us which documents they will be tendering in the first three

21 weeks, perhaps one week straight away, two weeks very quickly, then we

22 would prioritize those documents and as soon as we get them, we will make

23 them available. And, of course, that assumes that a rough translation

24 will be acceptable to the -- to Your Honours. So we will do that.

25 Mr. President, there is however another issue, and that is the

Page 13106

1 books and the tapes. I have asked the Defence to indicate which

2 paragraphs of the books they wish to tender so that we don't have to

3 embark on translating six books. And they are quite thick.

4 And secondly, we have received now I think 23 videotapes. So I

5 think well in excess of 100 hours of viewing. I could be wrong on that,

6 but I think it is in excess of 100. I don't know what steps have been

7 taken by the Defence to provide a transcript of those videotapes and a

8 translation into English. And I hesitate to offer the services of the

9 Prosecution to do that for them. I am not sure that we have those

10 resources. But perhaps that could be dealt with. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please respond to that, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when it comes to

13 video material, those segments that the Defence intends to tender will be

14 taken care of by us, meaning that we will provide the transcripts for the

15 segments that we intend to tender. We have already started working on

16 this, and I have transcripts prepared already for some portion of the

17 video material. I will do my best to do this on a timely -- in a timely

18 manner for all other material.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if we knew when we

20 could expect to have the parts of the books identified, that will be

21 tendered. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic. Having gone through the videos, you

23 now have to also read books, as far as I understand. Did you identify

24 already the parts of the books, and could you inform the Prosecution about

25 it , because otherwise, they have to read books as well.

Page 13107

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is doing

2 its utmost in that respect, as well. We will try to inform the

3 Prosecution as soon as possible about the parts that we intend to use.

4 And this is something I informed my colleagues yesterday. I also told

5 them that if we had two more assistants, I am sure that we would be able

6 to be more efficient in this regard.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that is a matter of the

8 Registry, rather than a matter of the Prosecution. I get the feeling that

9 there is some constructive cooperation in this field as well, or fields,

10 as repeating the words of Judge Rodrigues, who used these terms quite

11 regularly. So I take it that the video will have priority, and you have

12 already identified and you will take care of that so that you could inform

13 the Prosecution about that. And the books are coming next.

14 May I ask the Prosecution to remind the Chamber if they feel that

15 the Defence is losing pace in making progress in respect of the videos and

16 the books? Because we have no firm answer at this very moment, but of

17 course it is of no use perhaps to say at this moment, it should be done in

18 ten days. Let's just see how we proceed, and if the Prosecution would

19 remind the Chamber that they think it would need more attention than it

20 gets at that very moment. Then that's about the exhibits.

21 Then I would like to turn to the witness list which has been filed

22 yesterday as far as I see. The Scheduling Order asked the Defence to list

23 the witness in different categories - such as those used by the Defence in

24 the provisional list - within each category by order of importance for the

25 Defence case. I see that the list, as it is now, does not categorise the

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Page 13109

1 witnesses in the same way as the provisional list did. And I don't know

2 whether this is the order of priority or that it still has to be done,

3 Ms. Pilipovic. Because it is -- gives me the impression that it is not

4 specifically in an order of priority for the Defence case, but I might be

5 wrong.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has done

7 its best to categorise the witnesses. They are all important to the

8 Defence. And we made the concerted effort to go through the witnesses

9 according to list and represent them as they will appear. One of the most

10 efficient ways for the Defence was that the witnesses would obviously come

11 to the court and testify.

12 One of the main problems that the Defence had was the changes of

13 passport, because this started in Republika Srpska on the 21st of July of

14 this year. So all of the witnesses had to have their passports changed,

15 although the witnesses already had their passports. So the Defence think

16 it is best to do all these witnesses, 76 of them, to put them in some kind

17 of order of importance.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. By category then, because you changed the

19 categories. It was not without reason that in the Scheduling Order that

20 the Chamber referred to the categories. Because the Chamber was of the

21 opinion was quite helpful to have them in these categories, and then of

22 course within these categories to be listed in priority order. But these

23 categories we now have to reconstruct them. Of course, for some of the

24 witnesses, it is possible to see whether they are UNMOs or not, but not

25 for all of them.

Page 13110

1 So if the original categorization could be restored and then have

2 them listed in whether it is -- whether they are more important or not

3 than other witnesses. As you know, it is like equals. Some people are

4 more equal than others. And I do understand that all of the witnesses are

5 important for the Defence, but some might be of greater importance than

6 others.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will have

8 a second look to the list of the witnesses, and we hope that we will do

9 this as soon as possible to somehow categorise them according to some

10 order the way the Trial Chamber wishes it.

11 I apologise, Your Honour. We are not going to be able to be able

12 to ascertain that the witness will follow this order absolutely as they

13 are submitted. They will be brought to the Tribunal. I think that is all

14 right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: When I ask you to categorise, that is for other

16 reasons than the appearances of the witnesses in court. That is, of

17 course, a totally different whether you want to --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, of course.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we asked for a list of not more than 170 hours.

20 There is one witness of which is not certain whether he will testify or

21 not. But if he would testify, we would have a total of 186 hours. That

22 is more than 170. So I think --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We checked this

24 yesterday, last night, after we looked at the list again. And this has

25 also been spotted by the Defence as a problem, yes.

Page 13111

1 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would -- so that's the list in that respect

2 does not yet meet the requirements put by the Chamber.

3 Are there any comments to be made at this moment on the list of

4 the witnesses, Mr. Ierace?

5 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I note that it is a

6 significantly different list from the one filed earlier. I have only seen

7 it for the first time this morning. I also note that two things, that at

8 least one of the witnesses, an international, as I understand it, was not

9 in Sarajevo in the indictment period, perhaps a few days after he left.

10 That is an issue of preliminary relevance.

11 Secondly, a number of the witnesses, according to the

12 descriptions, appear to be giving evidence which is irrelevant to the

13 issues before the Trial Chamber, either entirely, according to the

14 descriptions, or at least in the majority. And by that I mean

15 descriptions to the effect that they will give evidence about targeting of

16 civilians on the side of the confrontation line held by the Sarajevo

17 Romanija Corps.

18 Two or three times so far, the issue of tu quoque. Tu quoque has

19 appeared to arise and we have been assured by the Defence, that it would

20 not be put forward as a Defence. It is quite predictable that much time

21 will be taken up with these witnesses, based on these descriptions,

22 arguing over just that issue.

23 Mr. President, in those circumstances, might I respectfully submit

24 that there should be some initial deliberation on this issue in the

25 interests of predictably saving argument with a great many of these

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Page 13113

1 witnesses. In other words, it should be made perfectly clear what is and

2 is not admissible in terms of subject matter. And by that I mean, if the

3 Defence wishes to submit that it is relevant, then perhaps that can be

4 more economically done rather than in the context of individual

5 witnesses. At the outset in terms of general parameters, it may mean that

6 a large number of these witnesses either don't have relevant evidence or

7 at least their relevant evidence is very short. Thank you, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps the Chamber received -- some members of

9 the Chamber received this list yesterday. Some of them have seen it only

10 this morning. So I think we cannot discuss this matter at this very

11 moment, where it was even suggested to the Chamber to do so, we decided

12 that we will deal with it at the pre-Defence conference. But it would be

13 helpful if the parties would prepare written submissions so that we can

14 first read what the objections are and then perhaps specify for specific

15 witnesses, and then receive a response from the Defence, so that we can

16 more efficiently deal with it at the pre-Defence conference.

17 So may I invite you first, Mr. Ierace, to file submissions in that

18 respect from the Prosecution's view. I would say that, giving this order

19 today, that if you wish that you have to file written submissions, that

20 the same time you need to prepare them, they will be given to the Defence

21 to respond. Yes?

22 The witness list, we -- the Chamber has seen that -- are there any

23 other submissions to be made in respect of the witness list, Mr. Ierace?

24 MR. IERACE: Not from the Prosecution, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber observed that quite many witnesses

Page 13114

1 are seeking, or at least the Defence is seeking for quite many witnesses,

2 protective measures. I would say it is rather become a rule than the

3 exception. We have not seen any requests, but the Scheduling Order says

4 that by the 25th of September, the requests should be submitted to the

5 Chamber. And since we see that it is known already for many witnesses

6 that the reasons are given, so that we can listen to the argument and to

7 the response of the Prosecution.

8 I must say it is a quite high number. And as we sometimes

9 disencouraged the Prosecution to stick to the protective measures sought,

10 and seeking protective measures for far less -- for a number far less of

11 witnesses, the Defence is certainly aware that this Chamber is very

12 much -- is paying a lot of attention to the public character of the trial,

13 and, therefore, would like to ask the Defence also to keep in mind the

14 important aspect of the publicity of this trial. We will see whether this

15 would reduce the number of applications for protective measures.

16 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

18 leave, the Defence has heard all your remarks and observations and will do

19 its utmost to take them into consideration. However, this situation is

20 different from the Prosecution's, and here I hesitate to tell you about my

21 personal experience, but I will perhaps do it one day, people who come

22 and -- who come from the side of vanquished, they are still today much

23 more prone to defuse emotions rather than those who come from the

24 triumphant side. Now, this is what explains it. These people are in a

25 different position and this is what we have to say, thank you.

Page 13115

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the Defence takes it

2 that -- this is partly argument already. Let's just weight and see what

3 the reasons are given for the request for protective measures, and then we

4 will then decide after having heard the response of the Prosecution.

5 If you are about to leave, I just tell you what was still on the

6 agenda. So it was the videolink, when we can expect an application for

7 the videolink, because that is what the Defence asks. And another thing

8 the Chamber would like to raise is points of agreements between the

9 parties which is an unsettled issue still already since the 16th of

10 November last year.

11 And finally, I would deal, so that you would know and if you want

12 to deal -- when you want to discuss it with Ms. Pilipovic just for one

13 minute, that it would be possible, I would like to pay attention to the

14 fact that the Chamber was not quite amused by both parties using more

15 pages or longer pages than they should have done in accordance with the

16 guidelines.

17 And finally, I would like to pay attention to the health situation

18 of the accused. So that was on my agenda, so that you know what you are

19 missing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. With

21 your leave, I shall depart. And thank you again for myself and in the

22 name of the Defence. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, so the first issue was when do

24 you intend to file a motion for videolink? When could we expect it,

25 approximately?

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Page 13118

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as the situation

2 stands now, the Defence believes that that will be after the 25th of

3 October. So between the 25th of October and 6th of November. We have two

4 witnesses in the Sarajevo area who expressed the wish to testify via

5 videolink.

6 Now, we have a problem with a couple more witnesses who, for

7 medical reasons, would not be able to come to the Tribunal. So we will

8 try that by the 25th of October and by 6th of November, that between these

9 two dates, the Defence witnesses will testify by videolink, all focused in

10 one location to make it easier. But I will have to say that perhaps there

11 will be some witnesses who will want to testify by videolink and that it

12 should be done from Belgrade.

13 The Defence has one witness who lives in Novi Sad, and whose

14 medical condition is currently such a state that he cannot guarantee that

15 he will be able to come to The Hague. And we have one witness who is

16 unfortunately -- who has unfortunately now become very ill, and he thinks

17 that he will not be able to travel. But this will depend on his tests.

18 But the Defence will make sure that the Defence knows by the time and that

19 we will be able to inform by the time and the location. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's about the videolink. I do understand that it

21 is mainly for medical reasons that you are seeking witnesses to testify by

22 videolink. There are also a number of witnesses under 92 bis. When do

23 you expect to have their statements to be available to the Prosecution?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence assesses

25 that this will happen in the next month, that it will be in a month's time

Page 13119

1 that we will be able to have this checked, that an officer of the Registry

2 will be able to confirm these statements. This should happen as soon as

3 possible, of course, but generally, I think it will be in a month's time.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking this because the officer has to be

5 appointed, has to travel to the locality where the witness resides. So I

6 would like to -- we will consider whether somewhere in the next month

7 would be good enough that we would urge you to even do it quicker. But we

8 will -- we will give it specific attention.

9 Next question is about expert witnesses. When do you expect that

10 you could submit the reports of the expert witnesses?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has also

12 discussed this question. And in our assessment, it will be early

13 November.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Early November. Of course it very much depends on

15 what will be the order of calling your witnesses and expert witnesses,

16 whether this would be in due time.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We will check again what exactly our ruling was for

19 the Prosecution, because I remember that we had a very specific ruling on

20 how much time the other party would need to express itself, whether it

21 would accept the expert report, and how much time there would still be

22 needed to prepare for the appearance of that expert witness in court. But

23 at least it is in the transcript now, that it's your expectation it will

24 be the beginning of November.

25 Mr. Ierace, would there be any specific responses or submissions

Page 13120

1 to be made on the issues we just dealt with, that is, protective measures,

2 videolink, 92 bis, and expert reports?

3 MR. IERACE: Just a point of clarification, Mr. President. I was

4 unsure from what my learned colleague said as to the dates for the

5 videolink testimony. Was she suggesting that the testimony would occur

6 between the 25th of October and the 6th of November? Because if that is

7 the case, I wonder whether we have enough time to decide if it is

8 appropriate.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that you would file the motion

10 between these two dates. Is that correct? Or would you like to have the

11 videolink effective in these -- this period of time?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] At that time, at that period of

13 time, Your Honour. But unfortunately, I received this information only

14 now, when I was in Sarajevo. So I was not able to do anything about it

15 earlier. One important witness for the Defence, just like all the others,

16 this witness asked for the testimony to happen between the 25th of October

17 and 6th of November, and that is why I was speaking to other witnesses who

18 will also testify via videolink. That is how I specified this time and

19 this is what I have just told the Chamber.


21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And I apologise, but I would just

22 like to know, what is the delay that is needed so that we would be as

23 efficient as possible to inform the parties for the videolink? Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We have two issues. First whether the Chamber allows

25 the witness to be examined by videolink; and then the second is the

Page 13121

1 technical preparation for it.

2 So the first thing that has to be done anyhow is to apply for it

3 rather soon. Then the Chamber will try to find the answer to the next

4 question: How much time it would need to prepare for the videolink to be

5 established. Because it is not just the technicalities, but also someone

6 of the Registry being present. So therefore, if you apply as soon as

7 possible for the permission to have these witnesses heard by videolink,

8 examined by videolink, we will then at the same time try to find out how

9 much time it would take to prepare.

10 The next issue is: Points of agreement between the parties. I

11 noticed that in the pre-trial -- some of the pre-trial Status Conferences,

12 that the parties seem to agree on certain issues. I am specifically

13 referring to the 16th of November of last year. And there was still a

14 long list where the parties were supposed to sign this list as being the

15 points on which the parties would agree. Finally, for this agreement on

16 few points, the list as such was not signed and was not filed.

17 Although you might wonder whether or not some of these facts were

18 facts of common knowledge. I don't know whether the parties really still

19 disagree on Sarajevo being on the east/west axis in the valley. I don't

20 think so, as a matter of fact. And a lot of other issues I think the

21 parties could easily agree upon. And perhaps the list could be a bit

22 longer.

23 For example, I wonder, having read the motion under Rule 98 bis

24 whether the -- for example, the Defence contests that witnesses of certain

25 incidents, that some people were injured during these incidents. For

Page 13122

1 example, Witness A, B, C, or D, that is Witness A was injured at a spot,

2 at a certain date. I am not talking about the hour of the day, because

3 that sometimes is in dispute. But whether -- I never heard we put to the

4 witness that you just claimed to have been hit by a bullet, but you were

5 not.

6 So a lot of issues, I think, could be easily dealt with. And I

7 also thought of confrontation lines because we have evidence from some

8 witnesses on confrontation lines. Then as an attachment to the motion

9 under Rule 98 bis, we are confronted with a map which also indicates

10 confrontation lines. And I am not saying that they are for every

11 centimetre the same, but they very much look alike I must say.

12 So therefore, and that does not even differentiate to times of the

13 conflict. But especially since I also read that a lot of the witnesses of

14 the Defence would testify on the establishment and on the situation of

15 confrontation lines, I wondered, how much disagreement is there on the

16 actual position of the confrontation lines and whether we could limit

17 ourselves to -- well, to those parts in dispute, of those parts of the

18 confrontation lines very relevant for a specific incident or those parts

19 of the confrontation lines moving during the conflict considerably rather

20 than hear another 10, 20, or 30 witnesses on where approximately the

21 confrontation lines were.

22 So these are just two suggestions on which the Chamber would like

23 to invite the parties to sit together again and to see what could be

24 reached. And if you would need any assistance to that, the Chamber is

25 quite willing to assist you in it or the Senior Legal Officer could

Page 13123

1 perhaps assist. So there might be ways to finish what remained

2 unaccomplished last year on the 16th of November.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respond to that very briefly?


5 MR. IERACE: I would, for my part, for the Prosecution part, be

6 grateful for that assistance. We did meet to go through the propositions

7 that were provided to us by Judge Rodrigues. And it may be that at this

8 stage, more could be accomplished by us. I think that the presence of an

9 assisting party, either the Court or the Court through the Senior Legal

10 Officer, may be a positive contribution towards achieving that result.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I may just spend a few words on that again.

12 I remember that -- I have not been present but -- the mere fact of whether

13 an appointment started on the 10th of October, or the 8th or the 9th or

14 the 7th or the 6th was one of the points of disagreement at that moment.

15 As far as the Chamber is aware, this has not been a hot issue

16 during the last seven months, but it was the 6th, the 7th, the 8th, the

17 9th, or the 10th. So therefore, even if you compromise, even could say

18 that the parties agree that on or around the 8th of September, so that if

19 someone wants to establish that it is within this time limit. Because it

20 is a pity that you have to spend a lot of the time on these kind of issues

21 if they are such small differences. And perhaps you can also then see how

22 important these differences turn out to be.

23 So if the parties could sit together and see whether they could

24 achieve more than they did last year, that would be highly welcomed by the

25 Chamber.

Page 13124

1 Then, the final point I would like to raise is the page limit for

2 filings. The Chamber noticed that both parties have sought different ways

3 of achieving the same, that is, to use more pages than allowed. The

4 Defence did it by putting 400 words on a page instead of 300, which is in

5 accordance with the guidelines, and the Prosecution did it by asking for

6 more pages at the very moment when the document was filed. I don't think

7 it needs any words to say that the Chamber is not amused by the different

8 techniques used to do what the parties apparently want to do, but should

9 not do.

10 Then, the final and a more important issue, and that would be the

11 last one for the Chamber to raise, but of course the parties will have an

12 opportunity to raise any additional issue.

13 General Galic, the Chamber would like to know whether there are

14 any developments in your health situation that would need the attention of

15 the Chamber at this moment?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Sorry. There are no

17 important changes. I can just tell you that in the last month --

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt you. As you know, as before, if

19 you would rather speak about it in private session, the Chamber is - for

20 reasons of your privacy - perfectly willing to go into private session. I

21 leave it up to you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for warning me,

23 but I don't think there is anything secret about this. I think that we

24 can speak normally, because the question that we have spoken about is

25 already known.

Page 13125

1 In the last month, I have used -- since the detention

2 administration helped me, I went to have physiotherapy on several

3 occasions. There has been some progress -- at least that is what I feel.

4 But there have been also some crisis, and even on one occasion, I had even

5 asked to have surgery.

6 I hope that for the rest of the trial, together with the doctors,

7 I will do my best to follow the trial, to be at the trial, and to follow

8 the trial under normal circumstances. But if there are any considerable

9 problems, I will inform you in due course. For the time being, I feel

10 that I am able to follow the trial. Now I have my family who is visiting

11 me today, and I hope that this will also contribute to an improved mood.

12 And you know everything happens in the mind and everything begins and ends

13 with the brain. So I hope that once the trial begins, I will be refreshed

14 for the continuation of the trial.

15 Thank you very much, and thank you for your concern.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, General Galic, for informing us. It is

17 good to hear that you aware that if there is anything to be brought to the

18 attention of the Chamber, that you can do so, and the Chamber expects you

19 to do so.

20 Apart from that, I am glad to hear that at least the physiotherapy

21 gives some relief, although not the final solution, of course. And then

22 now I am urging the parties to proceed quickly, because your family is

23 waiting. Is there any other issue the parties would like to raise?

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I understand that we are sitting

25 again -- is it the 2nd of October?

Page 13126

1 JUDGE ORIE: The pre-Defence conference is scheduled for the -- I

2 think it was for the -- I should have a look at my --

3 MR. IERACE: Madam Registrar is nodding.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's better to rely upon her.

5 MR. IERACE: The Defence and I are meeting the day before, and I

6 am sure that we will both do what we can to finalise the more obvious

7 issues of fact. And perhaps once we have done that, we can indicate what

8 issues may perhaps, if we both agree, benefit by some outside assistance.

9 Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you need the assistance of the Chamber or

11 the Senior Legal Officer, you know how to apply for it. Anything to be

12 raised by the Defence, Ms. Pilipovic?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just wanted to

14 check whether it is on the 3rd or on the 2nd? I think that the Status

15 Conference is on the 3rd and that our meeting with the Prosecution is on

16 the 2nd, if I am not mistaken.

17 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I see, the pre-Defence conference will be

18 on October 3rd at 9.00 in the morning. Yes.

19 Yes, I am asked to remind you that, of course, you should inform

20 the Victims and Witness Unit in due time for the first witnesses for which

21 you need the assistance of transferring them to The Hague, so that you are

22 well prepared for the 7th of October. Yes -- of course, not the 7th of

23 October, perhaps not the first witness but at least they need time to

24 prepare it, and that you get in touch with them in due time. Yes.

25 Okay, then this concludes the Status Conference. I Thank the

Page 13127

1 parties for the cooperation, and we will see each other again at the 3rd

2 of October.

3 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

4 at 3.05 p.m.