Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13857

1 Wednesday, 16 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked for a couple of minutes yesterday,

10 and could it be done in open session? We have -- we -- yesterday, we

11 finished in closed session. I think at this moment we are in open

12 session.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it

14 would be better if we did it in closed session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Closed session.

16 [Closed session]

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Page 13863

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10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Just for the sake of the

12 transcript, I think it is good to have in the transcript at this moment an

13 observation by myself which is that during the closed session, we dealt

14 with issues that should be dealt with in closed session, but we also dealt

15 with objections made by the Defence regarding the way of objections made

16 by the Prosecution during the examination-in-chief of witnesses. And the

17 Prosecution has responded that. It should have been done in open

18 session. I think that there is no need to repeat it, but for the

19 transcript, I think it is good to establish that this has been a

20 discussion. Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, only a matter

22 of the form. I am not talking formally about the objections of the --

23 JUDGE ORIE: The objections coming late and not objection

24 against --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

Page 13864

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the answers where

2 the Prosecution indicated that it was not always possible to object

3 against the questions because only from the answers it became clear that

4 there was lack of relevance, according to the Prosecution.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Pilipovic, you could now call the witness

7 DP6 again. Should we have to start in closed session or do you think that

8 we can start now in open session? The protective measures, of course,

9 being effective.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you, Your

11 Honour. We can begin in open session and when necessary, I will ask that

12 we go into a private session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So then I see the usher left the courtroom already in

14 order to escort the witness in.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Please be seated, Mr. DP6.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

19 solemn declaration you gave yesterday.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

Page 13865

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Mr. DP6, you told us yesterday where you were born and where you

3 lived. The time of interest to the Defence is 1992, 1994, specifically, I

4 am asking you about September of 1992. Where were you?

5 A. September 1992 I was in Nedzarici.

6 Q. Can you tell us when you say that you were, where exactly were

7 you?

8 A. At Lukavicka Cesta, Lukavicka Road.

9 Q. And in what capacity were you there?

10 A. I was a company commander.

11 Q. Can you tell us as a company commander at Lukavicka Cesta, this

12 company was about what formation?

13 A. Infantry.

14 Q. What larger unit did you belong to?

15 A. Infantry.

16 Q. How strong was the company?

17 A. In the beginning we were over 100, but then the numbers steadily

18 decreased.

19 Q. Your company was part of which brigade?

20 A. The Ilidza Brigade.

21 Q. Can you tell us where was the command post of your company?

22 A. At Lukavicka Cesta.

23 Q. Sir, can you tell us when was your company put together?

24 A. It came into being after the withdrawal of the former Yugoslav

25 People's Army.

Page 13866

1 Q. Can you tell us when was that?

2 A. I am not sure of the exact date, but I know it was sometime in

3 May, late May, June, thereabouts.

4 Q. When you say that it was formed in late May or June, can you

5 briefly tell us how and why was your unit formed?

6 A. Our unit was formed -- at first we were something like Territorial

7 Defence and we were defending our homes. And we practically organised

8 ourselves. But when the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew, it was then that

9 within the battalion the company was formed too.

10 Q. Mr. DP6, if I understand your answer, before the pullout of the

11 Yugoslav People's Army you were organised in the Territorial Defence. Is

12 that it?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Can you tell us when was that when were you organised in the

15 Territorial Defence?

16 A. It was following the 4th of April, 1992.

17 Q. When you say that you organised the Territorial Defence following

18 the 4th of April, 1992, can you tell us whether you were armed as the

19 Territorial Defence?

20 A. As the Territorial Defence in the beginning, we had the hunting

21 weapons and pistols of sorts. And later on after the barricade, the first

22 weapons we had were the weapons when the police came, and we disarmed

23 those police. And after the barricades, the police split up too.

24 Q. Mr. DP, when you talk about the organisation of the Territorial

25 Defence, you are talking about the organisation within the locality that

Page 13867

1 you lived in?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Can you tell us at that locality how many inhabitants did it have

4 that 1992, in April, May, 1992, therefore?

5 A. Well I am not quite sure, but I say 1.000, perhaps 1.200.

6 Q. If you have any direct knowledge, can you tell us something about

7 the ethnic structure?

8 A. In Nedzarici, 95 per cent of its inhabitants were Serbs.

9 Q. You keep telling us that you organised first the Territorial

10 Defence and then that you acted within a company that is a battalion in

11 that part of your neighbourhood. Can you tell us why did you organise

12 yourselves?

13 A. We organised ourselves because the police was split up at the

14 time, and as one walked around the city before the barricades, there were

15 some Green Berets. And we had to organise ourselves in the Territorial

16 Defence for our safety sake, that is, for our safety, our children's

17 safety, and our home's safety.

18 Q. Can you tell us if there were ever any incidents specifically

19 since you are talking to us about organisation in April, May, June 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us what happened?

22 A. There was shooting, shooting started across the positions, at the

23 positions where we were when we organised ourselves as the Territorial

24 Defence. At first, shooting started. As days went on, there was more and

25 more shooting. Muslims started provoking from the other side, started

Page 13868

1 shooting.

2 Q. Mr. DP, later on at closed session, I will ask you to point

3 exactly where you were. But now, could you tell us about your company

4 that you were the commander of. How many platoons did it have, or rather

5 did it have any smaller units within its structure?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What were these units?

8 A. These were platoons and then they were divided into sections.

9 Q. You just told us now that the sections were divided into

10 trenches. Are you telling us that on the position where your company was

11 there were trenches?

12 A. From the moment when we organised, of course we had to make some

13 shelters because of the shooting from the other side. And these were

14 trenches and these trenches were in houses.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have to

16 intervene because there is a part of the French transcript which is not

17 interpreted. I apologise, but "they were divided into sections." And

18 this part was not in the French interpretation, and then after sections,

19 we are talking about trenches, thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. DP6, I would just like to ask you to look at the screen in

23 front of you. And as soon as the cursor starts, could you then start

24 talking, because we are speaking the same language, so it could create a

25 problem with the interpreters.

Page 13869

1 Mr. DP6, could you tell us when were these trenches dug in the

2 area of your company, so to speak?

3 A. The digging of the trenches happened -- I don't know exactly what

4 the date was, but it was in May after the JNA withdrew. And the reason

5 why it happened, it is because there were already people who were injured

6 and people who were killed.

7 Q. When you say "there were already people who were injured and

8 people who were killed," could you tell us where were people killed and

9 injured?

10 A. On the Lukavicka Cesta.

11 Q. Mr. DP6, could you tell us, what was the width or what was the

12 length rather of the front line of your company?

13 A. The length of our front line or the width of our front line in

14 certain places, only a street divided us. And in some other places, there

15 was perhaps 20 or 30 metres. These were very close lines. Sometimes just

16 a street, nothing else.

17 Q. Mr. DP, perhaps there was a misunderstanding. I asked you about

18 the length of the front line of your own company.

19 A. The length of the front line of my company was approximately 500,

20 600 metres [as interpreted].

21 Q. And what was the depth?

22 A. The depth of the front line was 3, 4, 500 metres [as interpreted].

23 I can't tell you exactly. It depended on the place. Because Nedzarici

24 was completely surrounded, so it really depended on the place, depending

25 on which specific spot on the line we were looking at.

Page 13870

1 Q. Could you tell us when we are talking about the period when you

2 organised yourself as a TO and later on as a company, how were you armed

3 and how were you dressed?

4 A. To start with, we were dressed in uniforms of the JNA, not all of

5 us. There were some of us who were in ordinary clothes. Later on, later

6 on we received some camouflage uniforms, but that was already summer by

7 then.

8 Q. When you say that you had different weapons and some of them in

9 uniforms of the JNA and some of them, as I understood it, in civilian

10 clothes, could you tell us the uniforms of the JNA, how did you have

11 them? How did you come by them? Do you know?

12 A. When the JNA withdrew, we entered the barracks, took the uniforms,

13 and put them on.

14 Q. Could you tell us, these barracks, where was it?

15 A. It was located next to the Aleja Branka Bujica Street. It is in

16 the direction of Stupska Brdo.

17 Q. Are you telling us that this was in your locality?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, as a company commander, what weapons did you

20 have?

21 A. We had infantry weapons. We had M-48 rifles, semi-automatic

22 rifles, automatic rifles, and that was it. And we had M-53 semi-automatic

23 machine-guns, old ones.

24 Q. Now that you have told us all this, could you tell us, how did you

25 come by these weapons?

Page 13871

1 A. We got the weapons from the barracks.

2 Q. Could you explain to us how come that you had these weapons from

3 the barracks?

4 A. It happened when the JNA withdrew. We entered the barracks, we

5 took the weapons.

6 Q. When you say, "we entered," could you tell us who and how many of

7 you were there?

8 A. Well, we entered practically we went into groups. And -- in

9 groups, and we were just taking these weapons. I can't tell you exactly

10 how many there were of us, whether we were in groups of 10 or 15.

11 Q. Was there anyone in the barracks?

12 A. To tell you the truth, in the barracks probably there was someone,

13 but I don't know who it was. There was someone, but when the JNA

14 withdrew, the barracks were practically empty.

15 Q. Within your company or, if you know, within the battalion, were

16 there professional military personnel from the JNA?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you tell us if you have served in the JNA?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Can you tell us what is your military specialty.

21 A. I am anti-aircraft, light anti-aircraft, artillery.

22 Q. Mr. DP6, you told us about the positions of your company, how many

23 people were there, how you were dressed, and that you were in trenches.

24 Could you tell us something else. You told us that the second line, the

25 opposite line that was opposed to you, was about 4, 5 metres away from

Page 13872

1 you.

2 A. 4 or 5 metres, yes, because they were in a residential buildings.

3 And on the other side we were in the -- in our own houses where they were

4 not large residential buildings.

5 Q. When you say they were in residential buildings, could you

6 describe for us in relation to your street, in comparison to your line, to

7 your front line, what were these buildings like?

8 A. These were several multi-storey buildings, six, seven six to ten

9 storeys, it depended which building.

10 Q. When you say that they were in buildings, could you tell us who

11 was in the building? Did you see them?

12 A. Muslim soldiers were in buildings. And occasionally we saw them,

13 but we couldn't see them very often.

14 Q. Could you tell us from the other side, were there trenches?

15 A. Yes, of course, there were. Their trenches were in buildings,

16 just like our trenches were in our houses.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: I would be grateful if my learned colleague could

20 take me to the reference where the witness said that the line that was

21 opposed to him was 4 or 5 metres away. I simply don't recall it; I can't

22 find it. And I apologise if it is there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is

25 usually reacting after the answer. My question was about the width of the

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Page 13874

1 front line. I can't come back to that now, I can't find it in the

2 transcript, but the witness was explaining about the width of the front

3 line. And I told him that it was a misunderstanding. I was asking about

4 the front line, the length of the front line of your company. And this is

5 then that Mr. DP6 spoke about the distance of 2 or 3 metres.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have the --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If this is a problem, Your Honour,

8 perhaps you could ask the witness if that is what he said.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, in my transcript, I think there was a

10 different -- different testimony. I had, as a matter of fact, in my

11 recollection on page 13, line 16, the answer was "the depth of the front

12 line was 3, 4, 500 metres." That is what the transcript says. So I was a

13 bit surprised as well. And if you say that the objection came late,

14 that's true.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And before that, he said that it

16 wasn't that spot. It is before "3, 400 metres." That was precisely my

17 question. It was before the witness spoke --

18 JUDGE ORIE: It was 20 to 30 metres is what he said, according to

19 the English transcript.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know for sure that

21 the witness said that the front line where it was divided was just a

22 street but we can ask the witness in order not to waste time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: He said a street, that's correct, one street, but in

24 the transcript, at least, I cannot read 2 to 3 metres. Perhaps you

25 clarify this. I think, as a matter of fact, that it is -- if the

Page 13875

1 objection came late, that it is always good, first, to check carefully

2 what you read in the transcript. So, therefore, since this was a bit

3 confusing, I noticed it myself as well, that we should not blame the other

4 party for first checking the transcript before pointing at a confusing

5 issue.

6 Please proceed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us how far was the front line of the other

9 side from you and according to you?

10 A. We were just a street away from each other. The width of that

11 street was 3, 4 metres, depending, of course. It wasn't more than 3 or 4

12 metres between the buildings and where we were.

13 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us, bearing in mind the width of your front

14 line, in relation to the depth of the -- the width of your front line and

15 the other front lines, was the difference always so?

16 A. No, no. I explained, in some places it was 3 or 4 metres, and

17 there was -- there could also be a distance sometimes 20, 30, 40 metres.

18 I can't tell you exactly what it was.

19 Q. Did you throughout - all along your line, did you have trenches?

20 A. Throughout the line at certain distances we had trenches, and

21 these trenches were located in our houses.

22 Q. Mr. DP, if the Defence showed you the map of the city of Sarajevo,

23 the plan of the city of Sarajevo, would you then be able to indicate and

24 mark on this map the lines of both sides, and then show to us in which

25 part of the Lukavicka Cesta was your front line located?

Page 13876

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before I show you this map, could you tell us the other side that

3 you say were in buildings. On the other side of the front line, were

4 there all buildings, and if there were, what was their height?

5 A. They were all buildings, and these buildings were 6, 10, 12

6 storeys. I didn't count the storeys. But they held on to their positions

7 in these buildings.

8 Q. When you say that "they held on to their positions in these

9 buildings," could you tell us in the period 1992 September to August 1994,

10 from your positions was there firing and from which weapons, and also was

11 there firing from the other side? Could you describe to us the situation

12 on the line where you were a company commander.

13 A. On a daily basis on these lines, there was firing. As for the

14 weapons, we had, as I explained earlier, M-48 semi-automatic rifles,

15 automatic rifles, and we had the M-53 semi-automatic machine-gun.

16 Q. When you say that there was shooting on a daily basis --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- can you describe for us one event, one incident, during the

19 day. Could you describe how it happened.

20 A. This happened in the following way: Muslim soldiers would start

21 shooting, would start provoking, and we just responded. We were just

22 returning fire.

23 Q. Were you able to see from which positions the soldiers from the

24 other side were firing?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13877

1 Q. From which positions were they firing?

2 A. They were firing from the buildings as I have described. They

3 were firing -- they were firing from weapons.

4 Q. Were you able to see the weapons?

5 A. No. No, I was not able to see the weapons. But it was weapons --

6 were weapons. And I could see where the fire was coming from, from which

7 buildings the fire was coming from.

8 Q. Can you tell us was there a specific location where there was

9 constant firing or did these locations change?

10 A. There were locations, and they did change because they had

11 buildings because they were multi-storey buildings. And then were able to

12 change their firing positions. And they knew -- we knew sometimes which

13 buildings they were firing from. It was possible to see -- it was

14 possible to hear where the firing was coming from.

15 Q. Mr. DP6, I am going to show you a city map, plan of the city.

16 Later on, I will show you some other maps, but perhaps you can explain to

17 us what were these buildings in question and what the line was and which

18 street this was on.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I marked the map of

20 the city D1760. Your Honour, bearing in mind that Mr. DP6 will be putting

21 in positions, perhaps it would be a good idea to go in closed session,

22 because in these questions, I would like to ask some other more specific

23 questions.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into closed session.

25 [Closed session]

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. And just for the sake of the

21 transcript, and looking at the map that is on the ELMO, I indicate that

22 the witness DP6 has just marked on a map in the area of Nedzarici where

23 his front line was, which is a continuing black line, and where the front

24 line of the opposite party was, that is a dotted line quite close to it.

25 Please proceed.

Page 13881

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. DP6, you were about to explain to us the structure of

3 buildings on the side of -- manned by -- held by the BH army, and you

4 started telling us about the shopping centre.

5 A. This is the shopping centre right here. These are tall buildings

6 here, six-storey buildings. And to about this place, and the buildings

7 which are in this part here are not less than ten storeys high. Between

8 them, there is a clearing; there was nobody there because it was open.

9 And then there is the health centre, the Arandjelovac building as they

10 called it. The soldiers were in it to. They slept there, spent time

11 there, and also fired from it. Then at the foothills of Mojmilo, there

12 were also other buildings. These are these houses and that is where they

13 also where and fired from.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the transcript,

15 the Defence would like to say that the witness explained that the dotted

16 line are buildings, more than six storeys high, that is ten-storey

17 building. Then marked with the red crosses, that is where the buildings

18 are, the health centre, and that is where the troops of the BH army also

19 were.

20 Q. Mr. DP6, you tell us -- how tall were the buildings at the front

21 line? The tallest building, how tall was the tallest building?

22 A. Well, we were in small family houses, so you would have a ground

23 floor and the first floor. So our buildings were perhaps 5, 6 meters

24 tall.

25 Q. Can you tell us at what time did you hold these positions? We

Page 13882

1 said -- we talked about April, May 1992. You said September 1992. Until

2 when were you there?

3 A. Until the 20th of February, 1993.

4 Q. When you say, "20th of February, 1993," when you were wounded; is

5 that what you are saying?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you return to that place again?

8 A. In 1993, I returned from the hospital, or rather, I first went to

9 the Arandelovac spa. And then after Arandelovac sometime in October, I

10 joined by battalion again.

11 Q. And did you continue to command the company after October 1993?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. DP6, we shall now talk about the time before February 1993

14 when you were wounded. Did you have any knowledge --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: I may have a problem with the English transcript. As

17 I understand the evidence, the witness was in that position until the 20th

18 of February, was then wounded. Question: "Did you return to that place

19 again?"

20 "In 1993 I returned to the hospital and so on."

21 Next question: "And did you continue to command the company after

22 October 1993?"

23 There is no reference to October in the English transcript, so I

24 would be grateful if we would have the translation of what the witness

25 said about October of 1993. I am unclear as to what happened.

Page 13883

1 Alternative, perhaps my friend could lead it from the witness.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will ask the

3 witness --

4 Q. Mr. DP6, when did you return? You told us that you were wounded

5 in February 1993? When did you go back to that place, that is, the

6 positions where your home was?

7 A. After I was wounded you mean?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. After the wounding, I returned to the battalion.

10 Q. And when was that?

11 A. I returned in October. In September, I left the spa. I didn't

12 join by battalion straight away because I was still not quite well. And I

13 came to my battalion in October.

14 Q. So as of October 1993, you were again at that location and until

15 when were you there?

16 A. I don't understand.

17 Q. From October 1993, and how long did you stay on that line?

18 A. I -- after October, I was not at Lukavicka Cesta front line. I

19 was in the rear -- in my brigade's rear.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP6.

21 Mr. DP6, let us talk now about the time when you were not wounded.

22 Can you tell us if you had information, did you have any direct knowledge

23 of how many soldiers were on the side of the BH army in relation to the

24 front line of your company?

25 A. Personally, I do not know how many of them there were. But I know

Page 13884

1 that there were -- that I -- outnumbered us by far. One could see it

2 from -- one could deduce it from their attacks, from the number of their

3 attacks they carried against Nedzarici.

4 Q. You say one could deduce from their attacks. Can you tell us how

5 frequent were these attacks? When I say "how frequent," I mean by per

6 day, per week, per month. Can you tell us?

7 A. Those attacks were a daily occurrence. Nedzarici was attacked

8 every day.

9 Q. Mr. DP6, did you, from your positions which you held, see what was

10 going on behind the buildings of the front line opposite from you?

11 A. We couldn't see that. How could we see behind the buildings? We

12 can't see through the buildings. How could we see what was going on

13 behind those building?

14 Q. Since you told us that attacks were a daily occurrence by the BH

15 army against Nedzarici, can you describe to us up to the moment when you

16 were wounded, what did buildings look like on your side and on their side?

17 A. On our side right in the very early days of the war buildings, our

18 homes started to burn, but that was because of the gunfire. And those

19 buildings which were in front of us were also burning.

20 Q. Mr. DP6, in the course of this case we have had the opportunity to

21 see the maps of lines which are marked and which the Prosecution handed

22 over to Defence.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would

24 like to show the witness a map marked 3278. It is a set of 26 maps

25 covering individual incidents explaining to us by Mr. Karavelic.

Page 13885

1 Specifically on one of these maps, we are dealing with the incident 26,

2 and we can see a part of Nedzarici. And I would like, of course, with

3 your leave, the witness to be shown this map. And in view of his soldier

4 in that part of the -- of the area, I would like him to tell us and to

5 show us the line which is drawn here was the real line, that is, may the

6 witness do it with your leave? I have copied --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since the witness is not allowed to mark on

8 this map, Madam Usher, could you make sure that there are no pens around.

9 This is just a map to look at and not to make any markings, Mr. DP6.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have copied it,

11 though -- I mean, it is black and white. With your leave, perhaps the

12 witness, DP6, if he thinks that this map is not, then perhaps we can give

13 him the black and white map. And then he draw on it and show us where the

14 line was, but we shall wait.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If any marking is needed, then it could be done on

16 the copy.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. DP6, on the map before you, can you simply show us the line

19 that you drew on the map? Do we see this line drawn here? Will you

20 merely show to us the line, the front line of the two sides, the front

21 lines of the two sides. Let me help you.

22 The green line indicates the positions of the army of Republika

23 Srpska. And the light green or blue, if I may put it that way, indicates

24 the positions of the BH army. Can you now tell us if these positions as

25 they are drawn here reflect the situation whilst you were at that front

Page 13886

1 line --

2 MR. IERACE: I object. That is not the evidence. The evidence of

3 the witness was that the lines were incorrectly placed and he then

4 corrected it with the marker which appears on the map. And as I

5 understand my learned colleague's question, she confines herself to the

6 dark green line and the light green line. The appropriate line is the

7 black one.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

10 Q. Mr. DP6, my next question is: Between these two lines, the green

11 and light green, do you see where your front line was? Do you see another

12 line there?

13 A. These lines, these green and light green, they are not drawn

14 here. Because they both go into Nedzarici, that is our positions. And

15 this is the Lukavicka Cesta the Lukavicka Road. And these here are

16 buildings that they occupied. This is the shopping centre and these are

17 the buildings where they were. These buildings here, this is the

18 shopping centre and then we have the health centre here and then this

19 locality there with the houses.

20 And the light green line, it goes through Nedzarici, but they were

21 not here. They were beyond that line, that is -- that is in the shopping

22 centre. These buildings here and then on, as I have already explained.

23 Q. Witness DP6, between this light green and the dark green lines --

24 no, don't make any markings. But do you see any other lines?

25 A. Well, I see this blue line here, but this one is -- this is a

Page 13887

1 wrong line and this is inaccurate too because it is not true. The Muslim

2 troops were on this side of the street as, I have already said. In this

3 area here. So this line is not correct; it is not true that they were

4 here.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it has both become clear that the

6 early markings, as from the answers of the witness now, that the troops he

7 belonged to were on the one side of the road in little houses and that the

8 BH forces were at the other side of the road in high-rise buildings. So

9 would you please continue then. I mean, it is now for the second or the

10 third time that we hear the same evidence.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. DP6, between the blue line and the dark green line, you can

13 see buildings drawn. In that part which is framed by the blue and the

14 green colour, do these buildings exist and what are these buildings?

15 A. These buildings between the dark green and blue line, they do not

16 exist. Here is a centre, I mean the professional -- the centre for the

17 professional rehabilitation of blind and disabled persons. So the other

18 side is the Aleja Branko Bujica liar, and the other side is the blind

19 children's home. That was a primary school. And on this side here, these

20 are no buildings. I don't know what this is. Because these buildings did

21 not exist on our side except the home for the blind and the blind children

22 institute. This is crossing into our territory. There were no buildings.

23 They were merely the old people's home and the home for the blind. But

24 as they drew this, this part here probably, it looks as if this one is the

25 blind people's home and this one the old people's home. I don't

Page 13888

1 understand what this is.

2 Because these buildings, they were -- these buildings here, they

3 were in these high-rise buildings and the shopping centre. And here the

4 health centre is not marked and the houses that were here where the Muslim

5 soldiers were.

6 Q. Mr. DP6, on this map, you just told us that this map did not

7 reflect the real-life situations. You told us --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Firstly, I note that none of this was put to

10 General Karavelic as it should have been done in cross-examination. But

11 secondly, having regard to the transcript of the witness's last answer, it

12 will be impossible to determine from it any sense because my learned

13 colleague in her next question, has not sought to clarify for the

14 transcript what he was pointing to.

15 I am wondering, Mr. President, if it should be done or if he can

16 live without that. Thank you.


18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this map, the map

19 that the witness is looking at now, the witness looked at a few days ago.

20 And at the time when Mr. Karavelic was testifying about this map, the

21 Defence was not aware of the real-life situation on the site. And that is

22 why I am showing this map to Witness DP6 because he was there throughout.

23 And we think that he is a person fully qualified to describe to us the

24 positions and the distribution of buildings in this part of the locality.

25 And that is why the Defence could not ask Mr. Karavelic about the map and

Page 13889

1 the positions and could only ask this witness who was there. I couldn't

2 show this map to the witness earlier.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Just for the record,

5 essentially, the Prosecution does not accept that. The maps were provided

6 to the Defence in advance throughout the eight months of the Prosecution

7 case. And in particular, from the second and third months, there was much

8 evidence as to where the front line was in this critical area. The

9 Defence had every opportunity to obtain its instructions from its client

10 and from others as to where they say the front line was. But I don't seek

11 to push that any further at this stage. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that is a slight difference, and the maps are

13 not the same either. Because on one map, streets are without any width,

14 where on the other map the streets have some -- these are maps that deal

15 with the same area but are not drawn specifically the same in respect of

16 streets, buildings, et cetera. So it is -- it might be a bit difficult to

17 compare them.

18 But, Ms. Pilipovic I have been listening now for quite some time

19 and so has the Chamber. We heard a lot of evidence now. Could you please

20 come to your point.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

22 JUDGE ORIE: The last evidence we heard was that the buildings on

23 the map marked by Witness Karavelic shows buildings that do not exist. On

24 the other map you just gave to the witness, there seem to be at least

25 there are dark red buildings just next to that same street, the Lukavicka

Page 13890












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13891

1 Cesta as well. So I am still a bit confused.

2 The testimony of this witness is clear that these buildings

3 indicated on this map do not exist, and the front line is wrong to the

4 extent that it was one side of the street and the other side of the

5 street, rather than, as it is indicated here, both front lines just west

6 of the street. So, would you please continue and come to your point.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. All I

8 wish to say is that Mr. Karavelic was heard in July, and that he was the

9 one who drew these lines. So the Defence could not know whether

10 Mr. Karavelic would be confirming this or not in his testimony, confirming

11 the accuracy of this during his testimony.

12 Yes, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. DP6, on this map, do you see two small circles?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. One has "26" and the other one has "25."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. DP6, from the line which you hold, so to speak, can you see

18 these marked places? Are they in your field of vision? Can you tell us,

19 can you see these marked places?

20 A. You mean from our position?

21 Q. Yes. And can you tell us which street it is? Do you know what

22 part is in this locality and what is this locality called?

23 A. This is Alipasino Polje number 26 and 25. And the 25 -- 25 it's

24 up there, its the intersection. And this is Alipasino Polje. It is right

25 behind Vojnicko Polje. Behind these buildings, there is an intersection

Page 13892

1 which separates the Alipasino end. But it is an intersection because this

2 is a street, a road.

3 Q. So, can you tell us which street is it the "25" -- where "25" is?

4 A. Oh, I have forgotten what it is called, but it will come to me.

5 Q. And that intersection and this street, can you see them from your

6 positions?

7 A. We couldn't see either the intersection or the street. Why?

8 Because at number 25, there were containers and screens. So there was no

9 way you could see that street from our positions.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am looking at the

11 clock. I believe it is time for us to have a break.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic. Yes.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, either at this stage or when we

14 resume, might I have a minute to address the Chamber in the absence of the

15 witness?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn until 11.00. And, Madam Usher,

17 would you not bring in the witness before we enter the courtroom.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you wanted to address the Chamber in the

21 absence of the witness. Please proceed.

22 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Firstly, in relation to

23 the French letter. We haven't yet receive a translation. We have asked

24 the translation unit to give us a draft translation as quickly as

25 possible.

Page 13893

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We will deal with that then after --

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the reason I wish to address you

3 relates to the last few questions asked by the Defence -- excuse me,

4 Ms. Pilipovic has asked the witness effectively whether the crime scene

5 for scheduled sniping incident 25 could be viewed from positions held by

6 the SRK. She has not yet asked the witness specifically what the

7 situation was as of the date of the incident. But I think I can

8 reasonably assume that she would not have led this evidence if she does

9 not intend ultimately to establish that the response applied to the date

10 in question.

11 Essentially, the answer is that the crime scene could not be seen

12 from SRK positions because, "there were containers and screens."

13 Mr. President, this again raises the issue of the failure by the Defence

14 to have put relevant aspects of the Defence case to the appropriate

15 Prosecution witnesses, as they are required to do by the Rules of

16 Procedure and Evidence. I raised this issue I think last week in a core

17 sense and pointed out the various possible outcomes which flow from this

18 fundamental failure.

19 This one is particularly serious. The one in relation to the map

20 is not of critical importance, far from it, but this is. Essentially, the

21 witness, the eyewitness, gave evidence that she lived in the apartment

22 block adjacent to where the shooting took place. And she could easily

23 have been asked, and indeed it could easily have been put to her, that it

24 was impossible to see the other side of the confrontation line from where

25 her friend was shot, since this witness was immediately alongside her

Page 13894

1 friend when she was shot.

2 Mr. President, I don't propose to make these submissions every

3 time Defence demonstrates such a failure, and that is why I sought to say

4 these words in the absence of the witness. Ultimately, it is a matter for

5 the transcript. The transcript, when studied, will demonstrate where

6 witnesses have not -- Prosecution witnesses have not been confronted

7 according to the Rules.

8 It is not, in my respectful submission, sufficient for the Defence

9 to shrug its shoulders and say, well, we were only informed of this in the

10 last few days; not for matters like this. This is an incident which was

11 scheduled to the indictment. The Defence had ample time to make their

12 inquiries, and specifically if, as it now seems, their case is that the

13 crime scene could not have been viewed from SRK positions, then surely

14 that is something which they, either were aware of or should have been

15 aware of at the time that the crime-based witness was called by the

16 Prosecution.

17 So, Mr. President, I make the objections in these full terms now

18 and emphasise that I will not -- I do not propose to do so as a matter of

19 course from this point on. And I remind you that ultimately it may well

20 lead to the Prosecution seeking leave to either recall a large number of

21 witnesses so that these matters can be put, alternatively, for inferences

22 to be drawn against the Defence where they have not fulfilled their

23 obligation under the Rules under Procedure and Evidence.

24 Mr. President -- excuse me for a moment.

25 I may have one other comment to make in relation to this issue, if

Page 13895

1 I could be allowed to do so, perhaps at the end of the next break. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to respond, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was trying to

5 follow carefully what my learned colleague said. I don't know whether I

6 will be able to follow though transcript. If it is necessary, my

7 co-counsel could perhaps help me with this. But I have to say that

8 throughout the time that the witnesses of the Prosecution were heard, the

9 Defence always asked the questions or cross-examined, depending on the

10 examination-in-chief.

11 Specifically, we can talk about the incident 25. Here we heard

12 the witness. We know from the statement of the witness that she said from

13 which direction the firing came. And then at all the questions asked by

14 the Defence, when we are talking about the Prosecution witnesses, were

15 directed in a sense asking: "In the vicinity where you lived and where

16 you were, were there military, were there military targets?"

17 Mostly or generally all of the witnesses of the Prosecution said

18 there was no army, there were no troops, no military targets, they were

19 either walking by, they were passing --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think that the objection of

21 Mr. Ierace was about your questions in relation to containers or whatever

22 would take the view from potential perpetrators of the incident from the

23 scene of the crime. I think that is what his objection was about, and

24 that you have not put that to these witnesses. For example, let me just

25 try to understand what the Prosecution says, is that you did not put to a

Page 13896

1 witness -- I just have to be careful that she is not protected.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, we are making some inquiries about that,

3 Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: At least the victim that was shot?

5 MR. IERACE: She was not.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That is Medina Omerovic, that you did never put to

7 her whether there was anything that would take the sight from where she

8 was, looking at that spot from the other side of the confrontation line.

9 I think that is what essentially is what the objection of Mr. Ierace is

10 about. And he says, then we would have to -- if this is part of the

11 Defence case, then you should have put that to this witness, and

12 otherwise, we might be in a position that we have to recall that witness.

13 And what we heard from you until now is that you said we were only

14 aware of this fact since last week. And Mr. Ierace says to the Chamber

15 that that is not a sufficient response and that the Defence should have

16 prepared their case in an earlier stage, since it has been an incident

17 which was scheduled long ago.

18 From your answer, I have some difficulties in relating your answer

19 to the objection.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence can

21 stress here, but it will be necessary for me to analyse the transcript as

22 well. But certainly, the questions of the Defence were always directed in

23 this direction in a sense, did she go? Where did she go? What did she

24 see? Were there troops there? Was there protection? I am now in a

25 position to go back in time and recall everything about every single

Page 13897

1 incident and what every witness said.

2 Now, certainly Defence tried to ask these questions of every

3 witness. So the Defence that my learned colleague -- the attitude of my

4 learned colleague, the position of my learned colleague is certainly not

5 the correct one. I asked this witness specifically about this point. I

6 didn't ask about the incident or anything. I asked which street this

7 was. And the witness explained this area here, and where the two armies

8 were, and the area where the buildings were, as he said, completely

9 covered the area that was under the control of the army of Republika

10 Srpska. I did not speak to him about the incident. I only asked him

11 about which street that was and whether this street could be viewed from

12 the positions of the army of Republika Srpska. I think that was my

13 question. I cannot go back in the transcript. I will, if you allow me, I

14 will just confirm it with my colleague for a few moments about the

15 transcript.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps then may I ask the following: Also in view

17 of the pre-trial Defence brief and also in view of the submissions made

18 during the last month, in respect of -- I take it, that we are now talking

19 about incident 25 or 26. What exactly is the case of the Defence? That

20 place where the victims were could not be seen from the other side of the

21 confrontation line or that they could not be seen by this witness from

22 where he was working, or what is the Defence case in this respect?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Specifically talking, Your Honour,

24 when we are talking about incident number 5 -- 25, first of all, we spoke

25 about the demarcation lines. And the Defence's case is that on both sides

Page 13898

1 there were soldiers on the front lines.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first ask --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The second --

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...part. Is it

5 contested by the Prosecution that there were soldiers on both sides of the

6 confrontation lines?

7 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: What -- please continue, Ms. Pilipovic. So that is

9 the first part, not contested.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The second part of the Defence's

11 position is that alongside demarcation lines, positions of both armies,

12 there were daily clashes between the armies.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is that contested, Mr. Ierace?

14 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It is not contested. Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Another part of the position of

17 the Defence is that if we bear in mind the distance between these two

18 demarcation lines, that is, if there were army firing in the vicinity, the

19 Defence's case is that this was on a daily basis. And there were daily

20 attacks by BH army, particularly when we are talking about this position

21 and the height of these buildings, and the view that all of the soldiers

22 of the BH army were able to see from these positions in relation to the

23 positions of the Republika Srpska army.

24 So if we agreed that --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you on this point. So the third point is that

Page 13899

1 the positions in high-rise buildings gave the BiH soldiers a, may I say,

2 an excellent view on the other side of the confrontation line which would

3 have allowed them to attack from that position. Is that contested?

4 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Specifically, when we are talking

7 about this incident here we know and our position is and this was done

8 during the examination-in-chief -- cross-exam of Medina Omerovic that she

9 had been warned -- she had been warned that the soldiers were present on

10 the third floor of the building. They were in uniform and they told her

11 that she shouldn't be going there because there was firing. At that time,

12 she said there was firing.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is that contested?

14 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If the Defence doesn't know and is

17 unable to find out whether this was so, but if this was so, as the witness

18 Medina Omerovic stated during her testimony, and the matter was the

19 wounding of her friend Sanela Muratovic and if this did happen. And again

20 the Defence doesn't know if this did take place. Now, if she had been

21 wounded, this could have only happened by chance because there was an

22 exchange of fire of both sides because of the soldiers who were present on

23 both sides. So if it did happen, it came by chance.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is the conclusion you draw from these --

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So, what our position is, what the

Page 13900

1 position of the Defence is, is that if there were daily shooting, and if

2 the BH army fired from better positions, if there was -- if there was

3 wounding at all, this could have only happened by accident.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. We went through the four

5 factual issues: Presence of soldiers, daily clashes, the position of the

6 BiH, and the warning to the victim. And you say we draw some inferences

7 from that and that is the position of the Defence. My problem is that --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --


10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- I am sorry. This is not

11 quite the position of the Defence. The Defence will tell you about its

12 position as soon as the co-counsel can have a French transcript, French

13 interpretation of the French -- the transcript of the French

14 interpretation which will happen in the few days, as I am having

15 difficulties in the interpretation and I cannot explain now certain things

16 to Ms. Pilipovic. I will be able to give you some information, if you

17 allow me.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We did spend a lot of time to establish the presence

19 of soldiers. We did spend a lot of time on daily exchange of fire. We

20 did spend a lot of time on who was in high-rise buildings and who was

21 not. And we did not, until now, of course, and that is not illogical,

22 spend any time on a potential warning of the witness.

23 So we could have -- since it is not contested, it is not the

24 Prosecution's case that there were no soldiers. So I would say all these

25 facts that make you conclude that it should have been by chance that the

Page 13901

1 victim was hit, the underlying facts are not in dispute, as far as I see.

2 So therefore, we would not have had to spend time specifically on that.

3 I would not mind, this Chamber would not mind, as you know, to

4 especially perhaps with the first witnesses, to give a general impression

5 and to say, well, they were in high-rise buildings. So we are not

6 opposing to it. But whether this should take so much time when it is not

7 a contested issue, that is another matter.

8 But is it also the case of the Defence -- and I think that's part

9 of the problem of Mr. Ierace, is it also case of the Defence that the

10 victim was not visible from the other side of the confrontation line

11 because there were -- well, whatever, sheets or -- well, the protection

12 measures as we saw -- heard of them in many testimonies, containers. So,

13 in order to protect people passing by from fire. Is that also the case of

14 the Defence? I mean, that is different from -- if you say it is by

15 chance, that is different from saying you could not have been hit because

16 there was no view to target. I mean, that is how I understand if there

17 are any -- I mean, is that the case of the Defence?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind

19 specifically this incident, the position of the Defence is that these

20 buildings which were on the side, on our side, we completely rule out that

21 this incident, if it did take place at all if the wounded had taken place,

22 could not have happened from the positions under the control of the

23 Republika Srpska army.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And for --

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We do not know whether this person

Page 13902

1 was wounded at all, and how this happened at all.

2 JUDGE ORIE: But is it part of the case of the Defence that

3 because of the presence of such, I would say, visual barriers, the

4 witness -- the victim could not have been hit from positions held by

5 the -- by the Serbian forces. That is part of the Defence case as well.

6 Now the question raised by Mr. Ierace is -- I do not remember,

7 but perhaps you could refresh my memory -- that it is somewhere -- is it

8 in your pre-trial brief of the Defence or is it -- where could I have read

9 this that this, and perhaps specifically in view of this incident. I

10 don't know whether you are referring to 25 and 26 or just to the victim

11 Sanela Muratovic because we have dealt with both 25 and 26. Where do I

12 find that this is part of the Defence case?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this moment I

14 would have to look and in our pre-trial brief as I was preparing for this

15 witness, and I should look at the transcript. As far as Medina Omerovic,

16 I think that was in March 2002, but I cannot give you exact analysis now

17 about the position of the Defence. I apologise. I am not sure whether

18 the gentleman Dzunko -- Mr. Dzunko was protected or not because I did

19 mention his name. But this is a specific question that the Chamber has

20 for the Defence. But at this very moment, I would have to focus on the

21 precise way this position was explained. I believe that --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think that as far as the other victim is concerned,

23 that there would be no confusion as to whether there were any visual

24 barriers or not. I think there were. That's the Defence case.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 13903

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if my memory serves

2 me well, incident 26 has to do with sitting in a room.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is clear that the obstruction -- especially

4 from a distance, the obstruction of view is clear in the Defence case, I

5 think. So the issue is about Sanela Muratovic. Whether the Defence has

6 claimed in any of its submissions that because of the obstruction of view

7 from the Serbian-held positions, that she could not have been targeted

8 from there. I mean, that is the issue that Mr. Ierace raises, that he is

9 surprised to hear it now, that it has not been put to the witness which

10 would have been Medina Omerovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that such a

12 question was asked. I am trying to think back. But I will check.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You will have to check that. Because if that is

14 true, the objection of Mr. Ierace would be without merit. And the Chamber

15 should then make this clear. So therefore, we will check that.

16 Another issue is to use our time as efficient as possible, perhaps

17 since we really didn't spend a lot of time on issues of which it is now --

18 it has now become clear that it is not contested in whatever way, it is

19 not part of the Prosecution case that there were no soldiers on both of

20 the confrontation lines, so there were no frequent clashes. So we can

21 just accept that then. And if there is any doubt, please ask the

22 Prosecution.

23 And I am certain if it is not contested, that the Prosecution will

24 allow you to if you want to repeat that to establish that by leading

25 questions, is it true that there were soldiers on both sides of the

Page 13904

1 confrontation lines and was there frequent fighting. That makes one

2 minute. Then you make your point, you put your argument in place, and we

3 would not have to spend so much time on it. That's one of the issues I

4 would like to bring to your attention. Yes.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, concretely -- thank

6 you, Your Honour. As far as I can analyse the victim incident -- victims

7 so far, I believe it was the only victim who was heard and who said that

8 it was on the third floor, if I am correct, that there were a couple of

9 soldiers who warned her not to go where she was headed because there was

10 shooting there. I think it was the only incident. But in any event, an

11 analysis -- we shall analyse every incident. If we need to cut the time

12 shorter, we shall analyse every incident individually.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, only to finish

15 this and move on, I want to say one thing. In order to save time the

16 Defence worked last night very late in order to prepare reasons -- to give

17 you the reasons and I do not think -- I think that this is becoming a

18 very, very serious matter now. Mr. President, thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Just a quick response and then we will move on.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, very quick. I hope this will ultimately save a

23 lot of time. There is another aspect of this incident which, I think,

24 demonstrates a fundamental and serious concern. We did receive an

25 amplified "summary of facts" as to which the witness will testify, that

Page 13905

1 is, this particular witness. And we received that on the 13th of October,

2 2002. It is a paragraph long, approximately 20 lines. The only reference

3 to this aspect is as follows: "He will speak about facts important for

4 scheduled sniping incidents numbers 18, 21, 25, and 26." It is wholly

5 inadequate. We have no idea what this witness will say about incidents

6 18, 21 and 26. We have heard a little about 25.

7 In my respectful submission, that does not meet on the part of the

8 Defence their responsibilities under the Rules. It is not a summary of

9 the facts about which he will testify. This should have been included.

10 If I may, Mr. President, and I say this only because I don't

11 intend to rise to my feet on every occasion, to the extent that it might

12 be thought or suggested that the problem confronted by the Defence is

13 explicable in terms of their legal culture, I have done a little study of

14 comparative criminal procedure. And it is clear to me that in the civil

15 law system where there is an investigating magistrate, in a situation such

16 as this the eyewitnesses would be confronted, would have put to them, the

17 account put by the Defence, that is, the person who determines the facts.

18 He is assisted by knowing what the response is of the relevant witnesses

19 to contention put by the other side. That is how it is done in the civil

20 law system; this is how it is done in the common law system. Both ways

21 lead to the result, that the fact finder is assisted by knowing what the

22 response would be.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, whether your analysis of the civil law system is

25 acceptable to the Chamber, we will still have to consider that.

Page 13906

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In any

3 legal system, in any legal system, if a problem arises, one takes a

4 telephone, one calls and says, what is this? Mr. Ierace received on the

5 13th this information. If he did not understand, if he did not know, if

6 he couldn't imagine, if he couldn't anticipate whatever about the firing

7 conditions, he could have well called us and asked us, Did you discuss the

8 possibilities of this and this? And then we would have a dialogue. It is

9 not really right to wait for the last moment to waste I don't know how

10 much time. That is perhaps so, but we did not understand.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be an important aspect of the testimony.

12 I think it should have been provided by the Defence. And the vague

13 wordings could have given the Prosecution a reason to ask for further

14 explanation.

15 We will now ask Madam Usher to bring the witness.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. DP6.

19 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. DP6 --

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like again the witness to

23 be shown the map with incident 26.

24 Q. Mr. DP6, you have in front of you the map that you looked at

25 before the break, in relation to the lines and buildings about which you

Page 13907












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Page 13908

1 told us that they did not exist. On the right-hand side, can you identify

2 the three structures in the upper corner. You said it was Vojnicko Polje.

3 Above number 25, you said that it was Aleja Branka Bujic.

4 A. This is Aleja Branka Bujica.

5 Q. How far does it extend?

6 A. Aleja Branka Bujica goes straight down to the terminal -- no, up

7 to here.

8 Q. Can you tell us above the three buildings which are drawn.

9 A. Which ones?

10 Q. Above the line that you tell us is Aleja Branka Bujica. Above the

11 Aleja Branka Bujica.

12 A. You mean here.

13 Q. No, no. Above. Where you have three red dots. See, as if in a

14 triangle, two buildings above the buildings in the upper corner.

15 A. I don't understand you.

16 Q. Mr. DP6, will you tell us what is the street which is an extension

17 of Aleja Branka Bujica, as you tell us, to the three red dots, towards

18 number 13 and 2 where it says.

19 A. Oh, I see. Now I understand what you mean. Aleja Branka Bujica

20 extends as far as this place.

21 Q. And then what follows?

22 A. What then goes towards the tram terminal in Nedzarici. I am not

23 quite sure what the street is called.

24 Q. Can you tell us these two structures which you have there, what

25 are these?

Page 13909

1 A. You mean these ones? These are student hostels.

2 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us, until October of 1993 and as of October

3 1993 do you have any direct knowledge whether in these structures there

4 were any troops?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us whose?

7 A. Muslim.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript,

9 the witness, above -- no, below number 2 and 13, the witness is pointing

10 at two buildings, two structures, and he tells us that these are students

11 hostels.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness is pointing to two

13 triangular at least tripod I would have to say structures left from the

14 numbers 2 and 13.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. So, Mr. DP6, you are telling us that in these students hostels

17 there was the BH army?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. DP, while you were in your locality and during the conflict,

20 can you tell us if there were any UNPROFOR forces there?

21 A. UNPROFOR came to the students hostels from time to time.

22 Q. Can you tell us when was that?

23 A. I can give you -- I can't give you the dates. I can give you

24 approximately times. They were there, I think, in August or September.

25 But they kept coming there except -- but they were not quartered in those

Page 13910

1 students hostels, but they did visit the students hostels in front of

2 students hostels.

3 Q. Can you tell us why did they go there? Do you have any knowledge

4 of that?

5 A. I really don't know why. But when they were there then there

6 would be no fire coming from the students hostels.

7 Q. But did you personally have any contact with UNPROFOR

8 representatives?

9 A. I didn't.

10 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us about the time when you were there, that

11 is until February 1993, you told us that you commanded a company. Who was

12 the battalion commander?

13 A. Radivoje Grkovic commanded the battalion.

14 Q. Mr. DP6, was he your commander for the duration while you were in

15 Nedzarici -- I'm sorry, I mentioned a place.

16 A. Until February 1993, the battalion commander was Radivoje Grkovic

17 Q. When you returned in October 1993, was Mr. Grkovic still your

18 commander?

19 A. No, he wasn't.

20 Q. Who issued orders to you as the company commander?

21 A. The battalion commander issued orders to me as the company

22 commander. And presumably it was the battalion commander but it was --

23 the battalion commander received his orders from the brigade commanders.

24 Q. Mr. DP6 how personally as the company commander, how did you

25 report to your superiors? When I say "how," I mean in what way, that is,

Page 13911

1 orally or in writing and how often?

2 A. My reports were oral and they went to the battalion command and it

3 was by using the field telephone or at night when darkness would fall,

4 then I would go there if need be and report orally again.

5 Q. Did you and how receive reports from your subordinates or rather

6 who were your subordinates since you were a company commander?

7 A. Platoon leaders.

8 Q. And how did platoon leaders report to you?

9 A. Orally.

10 Q. When you say that they reported orally, did they ever -- did your

11 subordinates ever report to you about the situation in the zone of your

12 company? Did they report to you whether there had been any fighting,

13 whether there had been any casualties?

14 A. Yes, they submitted their daily oral reports on that or by field

15 telephone. They reported whether there had been any wounded or killed on

16 our side or anything.

17 Q. Did they also report to you about possible shellings by the BH

18 army?

19 A. They did.

20 Q. Did they report the positions from which it came?

21 A. Well, they reported the shell has arrived from this or that

22 direction, and the shell hit this or that place in our area of

23 responsibility.

24 Q. When you tell us that your superior was the battalion commander,

25 can you tell us what kind of orders did your battalion commander issue?

Page 13912

1 What was the substance of these orders?

2 A. The substance of these orders was roughly not to fire just like

3 that without provocation, that is, naturally if we were attacked we had to

4 return the fire to repel the attack. I mean, the orders of the battalion

5 commander by and large went in that direction, were in that sense.

6 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us after your -- after October 1993, you had

7 a different battalion commander. What kind of orders were his?

8 A. Well, they are more or less the same. The orders were the same as

9 before I returned, before I was wounded. Not to fire just like that, if

10 there was no need to, and if the other side attacked, then we, of course,

11 always had to fire. We had to defend ourselves. And the majority of the

12 orders had to deal with the fact that we were not to fire at civilians, at

13 women, and so on. This was prohibited strictly.

14 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us how were you issued with ammunition --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I am very sorry,

16 but I heard the witness say in the language that I am following: "Not

17 only civilians and women, but also children and elderly." These are the

18 two things that he said which are missing from the transcript. And it is

19 the -- it has to do with specific instructions that he received from his

20 superiors.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you refer, apart from civilians and women, also

22 to children and elderly people, that you were ordered not to target? Yes?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13913

1 Q. Mr. DP6, when your subordinates reported to you about the

2 situation in their areas of responsibility, did you ever get a report that

3 somebody had hit a civilian or that some civilians -- that there were some

4 civilian casualties? Did you ever receive such a report?

5 A. Excuse me, I said a moment ago that we were forbidden to fire at

6 civilians, the elderly, and children. I said it a moment ago.

7 Q. Mr. DP6, before I asked you that, I asked you about the supply of

8 provision of ammunition. Can you tell us how and who requested the

9 ammunition and what was the situation regarding the quantities that you

10 had at your disposal?

11 A. In the early days, we had enough ammunition. But later on,

12 perhaps sometime in June, we had to apply for ammunition and in some

13 detail how much we spend, and if so much then why so much, because it was

14 a short supply. One was not to open fire at random during brawls or

15 whatever.

16 Q. Mr. DP6, on this map you pointed at students hostels and told us

17 that troops were there.

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Of the BH army?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Did you -- and if yes, then from which positions were you able to

22 look through the buildings of the student hostels?

23 A. How can I look through the buildings?

24 Q. Did you have any direct knowledge that these students hostels were

25 on fire? Did they burn?

Page 13914

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when was that, do you know?

3 A. I don't exactly. It was in the early days of the war, June, July,

4 I really don't know. I can't remember the date. All I know is that they

5 were in flames. One could see the flames.

6 Q. But could you use them, that is, could they be used if they had

7 burned?

8 A. Yes, because the walls remained standing as walls. Those hostels

9 were not demolished. There were still walls standing.

10 Q. Mr. DP6, on this map, can you point at the Oslobodjenje building?

11 Do you see it here?

12 A. This is the Oslobodjenje building.

13 Q. Can you tell us -- can you tell us about this Oslobodjenje

14 building? Was it used by some army and which?

15 A. It was used by the BH army.

16 Q. When you say, "it was used," when? At what time?

17 A. Throughout the war, while I was there.

18 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether there were any troops there?

19 A. Well, the troops were there, just like the student hostels. So

20 these are big buildings, and they used those big buildings.

21 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us in the area that you lived in, which was

22 the tallest building?

23 A. The tallest building was the monastery, that is the faculty of

24 theology.

25 Q. Do you have any knowledge that whether during the conflict that is

Page 13915

1 in 1992, 1993, 1994, until August, whether there were any troops in that

2 area and whether troops used that building?

3 A. Yes, troops used that building.

4 Q. When you say that it was the tallest building, can you tell us how

5 many storeys?

6 A. Four. Four floors.

7 Q. Mr. DP6, in view of your of your testimony, can you tell us and

8 your stay in that locality, can you tell us whether you had electricity

9 and water?

10 A. In the locality, there was no electricity. And when there is no

11 electricity, then there is no water.

12 Q. Can you tell us at which time intervals were you left without

13 water and electricity?

14 A. 1992 until I was there until 1993, there was no electricity at

15 all. And when there was no electricity, there was no water either. So we

16 use water because there was some old wells which were used ages before

17 that. And we cleaned them up and put lime in them to disinfect them and

18 that was the water that we used for washing, for laundry, and the rest.

19 Q. Mr. DP6, can you tell us, because we heard a number of testimonies

20 about an Institute for the Blind.

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Can you point on the map at this institute.

23 A. The institute for blind children is located vis-a-vis the Aleja

24 Branka Bujica. It should be around here somewhere.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript,

Page 13916

1 Mr. DP6 is explaining that between the blue and the dark green line, the

2 first rectangle that we can see, and to the north is the building of the

3 Institute for the Blind.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Institute for Blind Children.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Institute for Blind Children. I apologise.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to be a bit more precise.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] From the street called Branka

10 Bujica, Aleja Branka Bujica Street.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to be very precise. I see on the map a

12 number "13"; that's where the blue line appears between the dark and the

13 softer green line. There appears number "13." And I noticed that the

14 witness pointed at a rectangular which is the fourth of a row of four from

15 north-west to south-east, closest to crossroads, and that is a crossroad

16 that appears between numbers 13 and two larger constructions at the other

17 side of the crossroad close to number 25.

18 Yes, please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. DP6, when you indicated to the building, you said it was

21 Institute for Blind Children?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the area of your locality, were there other such institutes?

24 A. There was a centre for the blind and the disabled. These were

25 plants, production plants. This is where people who worked who had

Page 13917

1 graduated from schools and who had vocational degrees, they were able to

2 work in this production.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP6. I just want to ask if you can tell us, this

4 institute, as you called it Centre for the Blind, could you tell us where

5 that was?

6 A. It was located approximately here where you can see the small

7 square, on the other side from the Bujca Aleja very near to the Lukavicka

8 Cesta, about here.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP6.

10 Mr. DP6, when you spoke about the Institute for Blind Children,

11 can you tell us, do you know who was using this facility during the

12 conflict?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps locate a bit more precise where the

14 Institute for the Blind Children was at one side of the road in a -- the

15 lowest in a -- I think it is a red rectangular shape, just opposite the

16 road between the dark green line and the blue line. The first structure

17 in south-easterly direction was pointed at by the witness, which has a

18 rectangular shape in the main direction of that structure going from

19 south-west to north-east, just opposite the two bigger structures I

20 mentioned before.

21 Please proceed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. DP6, when you spoke about the Institute for Blind Children, I

24 asked you if you knew whether this facility was operational and who was

25 using it in 1992, 1993, 1994?

Page 13918

1 A. This facility was used by the army of Republika Srpska from 1992.

2 Q. Did you personally visit this facility?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Considering that you did visit the facility, could you tell us

5 perhaps in relation to the view towards the triangular buildings which are

6 the student hostels, could you tell us what was your view like in relation

7 to the street which is parallel to the student hostels?

8 A. In relation to this street here?

9 Q. Yes. In relation to this street parallel to the student hostels.

10 First of all, could you tell us the distance, in your opinion,

11 approximately.

12 A. About 400 metres, perhaps 500 metres.

13 Q. What was the view?

14 A. Maybe there is more than 500 metres.

15 Q. What is your view, if you are at the Institute for the Blind?

16 A. You mean looking at the street?

17 Q. Yes. Were you able to see what was going on in the street with

18 the view through the student hostel?

19 A. We can't see through the student hostel because these are

20 buildings where you have walls. It is impossible to see. Moreover, it is

21 all black because they had burnt.

22 Q. Did you -- from the Institute for Blind Children that you say was

23 used by the army of Republika Srpska and you say that you visited there,

24 could you tell us how tall was that building? How many storeys did it

25 have?

Page 13919

1 A. I think about 15, 20 floors, something like that.

2 Q. I am talking about the Institute for the Blind.

3 A. Oh, Institute for the Blind, yes. It had two floors. It has two

4 floors, yes.

5 Q. Could you tell us on which floor was the army or was the whole

6 building used by the army?

7 A. The army was on the first floor; it was on the ground floor.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter lost part of the witness's

9 answer.

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you to repeat your answer. You said,

11 "I think the army was on the ground floor," that is what you said, isn't

12 it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was on the ground floor and

14 occasionally it would go to the first floor, upstairs, the first floor was

15 like an observation point. And on the first floor, you couldn't set

16 guards there because of security. And it was on the ground floor that we

17 made these trenches.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. DP6, could you tell us how often did you go to the Institute

21 for the Blind?

22 A. I didn't go that often. Perhaps once a week, once a fortnight I

23 would go just for some consultations or for some discussions. Because it

24 was impossible to cross to this to -- cross over the street to get to that

25 building. You had to go all the way around. You had to go to the

Page 13920

1 barracks and then go through the buildings where there were screens in

2 order to get -- and then you cross the trenches and then you get to the

3 Institute for the Blind.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I apologise. I believe

6 that what I heard -- no, it is in the transcript. I apologise.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. DP6, I didn't understand you correctly. Where was it

10 impossible to cross from? When I asked you how frequently you went --

11 A. It was impossible to go from Lukavicka Cesta across the Aleja

12 Branka Bujica to the Institute for the Blind. But you had to go all the

13 way around to the barracks and then from the barracks you would go by the

14 buildings --

15 Q. Do you think that you could show it to us on the map? Where did

16 you go from the positions of the Lukavicka Cesta?

17 A. Approximately -- this map is no good. But I will show you,

18 approximately. I approximately went through here -- from here to here and

19 then here. Here is the barracks here. And then you went to this part.

20 And here there was some private houses, so you went alongside these

21 private houses. Here there was a kind of opening. There was a trench

22 there. Through the trench and then you would get to the Institute for

23 Blind Children.

24 Q. You said that you didn't dare go --

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we don't have a record of that. Might

Page 13921

1 I suggest that perhaps we use the other map and mark it to show the route

2 and we clarify where the starting point is, what the significance of the

3 starting point is.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is also important how precise the route is.

5 What the witness indicated is that he would not cross the street, but go

6 first in south-westerly direction on the scale of this map, approximately

7 3 to 400 metres, then go to the other side of the road, and then to move

8 in north-westerly -- northeasterly direction, again to reach the Institute

9 of the Blind Children. If there is need for any more precision, I would

10 like you to ask the witness to mark it; if not, please proceed.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no. No, Your Honour,

12 there is no need for that. Just that -- although, I do have a map. I

13 have a map which is black and white, and if it is necessary, we can mark

14 it in. But considering your explanation, I don't think it is necessary.

15 Q. Why did you have to use that route, Mr. DP6?

16 A. I had to use this route because there was firing, there was

17 shooting. It was visible. You couldn't cross from Lukavicka Cesta to the

18 Institute for the Blind to get directly across the road; you had to go all

19 the way around. Because the army had made the route for itself and then

20 you would get to the Institute for Blind Children.

21 Q. Do you know personally how frequent -- how frequent was that

22 considering that you went frequently?

23 A. What do you mean? What happened frequently?

24 Q. How frequently were these positions targeted?

25 A. It was targeted on a daily basis. Because not a day went by

Page 13922

1 without shooting here.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just confer a

3 moment.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague has a

6 few questions and then we will finish. I believe that we are within the

7 time frame that the Defence has.

8 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you approximately need,

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Five minutes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness?

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. My question is the following: From what you call the Institute

17 for the Blind, were you able to - yes or no - see the street, the road

18 which was on the other side of the two triangular buildings that you call

19 the student hostel?

20 A. From the Institute for Blind Children, you were able to see; while

21 the centre for professional rehabilitation, you were not. So you were

22 able to see from the building next to the Aleja Branka Bujica, you were

23 able to see; while from the Lukavicka Cesta, you were not able to see the

24 student hostels, you could just see the top floors, maybe the top two

25 floors.

Page 13923

1 Q. Very well. But my question was the following: Were you able to

2 see the street which was behind these two buildings?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 My second question is the following: Witness, do you know if the

6 neighbourhood or the locality of Nedzarici was targeted by shelling by the

7 other side, by the opposing side?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Witness, if this was the case, what could you say about the

11 intensity of the shellings on one hand, and of the results in terms of

12 destruction, particularly destruction of buildings and so on?

13 A. Nedzarici was shelled occasionally. For instance, I remember on

14 one occasion, I think it was in June, perhaps between 15th and 20th of

15 June - I can't tell you the date exactly - when a shell hit the old

16 people's home. On that occasion, six old elderly people were killed that

17 we were not able to take out immediately. We couldn't take their bodies

18 out immediately, but we had to wait for the night. And it was only after

19 that that we managed to get them out. So that was the first time when

20 really a lot of people were killed by a shell. In that old people's home

21 were elderly people of all three ethnic backgrounds, Muslims, Croats and

22 Serbs. And the same thing happened in July, there was another shell that

23 hit the old people's home.

24 Q. Witness, I will let you see two photographs and they have numbers.

25 D1761, and D1762, and to start with I would like you to tell us if you can

Page 13924












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Page 13925

1 identify them.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just

3 like to specify that these photographs where there is also a copy for the

4 Prosecution, they were properly disclosed at the time and -- but of course

5 the Defence has got a copy for everyone.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just to clarify this, I don't think we

7 received any warning of either number. We have received one of the

8 photographs, the other one we are seeing for the first time. So if my

9 friend could try and keep the proposed exhibit list up to date.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. The two proposed

12 photographs have been disclosed at the relevant time.

13 Q. Now, Witness, could you please have a look at the photographs that

14 you were handed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could have them put

16 on the ELMO, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the

19 usher.

20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...on the ELMO,

21 Madam Usher, once the witness had a look at them.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Since you put that

23 one on the ELMO, we will have a look at this second photograph ending with

24 a "two" in this number.

25 Q. Witness, could you please tell us if this photograph corresponds

Page 13926

1 to a neighbourhood that you know, the photograph which is now on the ELMO,

2 please. Specifically, is this an area -- is this Nedzarici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Now, Witness, if we assume, and I know it is -- this was taken

6 very recently, that is, only a few months ago, is the state of the

7 destruction at the time which happened in this neighbourhood is

8 comparable, similar, or different from what we see on the photograph

9 today?

10 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, for a number of reasons.


12 MR. IERACE: Firstly, what time is the question directed to;

13 secondly, and more importantly again, relevance.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we are talking about relevance, it sometimes

15 it useful to ask the witness to take off his headphones.

16 May I first ask you, Mr. DP6, do you understand any French or

17 English?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take off your headphones for a

20 second. Yes.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

23 question of relevance is the following: We have here buildings, it seems

24 to me, obviously civilian buildings and the witness just told us that this

25 is a neighbourhood of Sarajevo.

Page 13927

1 Now, what we would want to show is that there were firing errors

2 and buildings could be destroyed certainly by shellings and certainly by

3 firing errors. If these firing errors were numerous in the area of

4 Nedzarici, and if this witness tells us, yes, there were shells which

5 exploded very frequently and very frequently buildings were destroyed as a

6 direct consequence, then it seems very useful for us to say that on both

7 sides this was the case. And I believe that this is a very important

8 evidence in terms of reasonable doubt.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I am trying to follow you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. How

10 can we see from this photograph where we see heavily damaged buildings

11 that have a civilian appearance, how can we see that they were not

12 intentionally shelled? Because you indicate to us that the relevance is

13 that if such errors could occur in Nedzarici, they could have occurred at

14 the other side as well. I do not know how you can see that from a

15 photograph, but if you could please then -- and whether the witness would

16 know that --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am just

18 responding to your concern. If what I presume the witness will say, he

19 will say that all of the buildings were in this state. So there were only

20 two hypothesis. One side -- on one side, there is only deliberate

21 shooting, and if this -- I am saying this is not a good hypothesis. And

22 the second hypothesis, there was a very high degree of firing errors. And

23 this is what we want to show in dispute. I don't think that there is

24 another possibility except intentional, deliberate, and errors. Because

25 of a number of buildings that were hit, we believe that this was a very

Page 13928

1 high degree of errors.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what you want to establish of the relevance

3 is that there was an extensive damage of buildings, and then the next part

4 is how you would explain that. Is that in dispute that there was

5 extensive damage done to buildings in the Nedzarici area, Mr. Ierace?

6 MR. IERACE: Not as termed, Mr. President, no.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So that is not in dispute. And I think the second

8 part, unless there is some specific reason to assume that the witness

9 could explain to us whether this was the result of deliberate targeting,

10 buildings of a civilian appearance, or that if these were errors. If you

11 have reason to believe so, you may proceed; if it is just to establish the

12 extensive damaging of these houses, I think these pictures where the

13 witness testified where it was Nedzarici could support that and we could

14 look at it and it could be admissible in evidence.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just to

16 make things simple and since we have this witness who knew the area, and

17 since we say, if I understand it correctly, we say there was extensive

18 damage, as you put it, may I ask a direct question to the witness, put it

19 directly, whether he knew about firing mistakes, firing errors, during

20 shellings and were they occurring in Nedzarici directly? We would gain --

21 save time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- I think the first question you should then

23 put to the witness is whether he has any specific knowledge of targeting

24 of shells fired by the opposite armed forces. Yes.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Of course.

Page 13929

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

3 [Defence counsel and accused confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to put questions to the witness, I will

5 first ask him to put his earphones on again. Thank you.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Q. Witness, do you have any knowledge, personal knowledge, of the

8 fact and perhaps of the means used by Muslim forces to conduct, carry out,

9 shellings on Nedzarici? Yes or no.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Did they use weapons and in order to find out, did they use

13 weapons like a mortar, for instance? Yes or no.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well.

16 Witness, did you know whether these weapons used in Nedzarici may

17 have produced, may have resulted, in firing errors, that is, collateral

18 damage? Yes or no.

19 A. I didn't understand the question.

20 Q. Very well.

21 Do you know --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have some problems with this

23 question. Would you -- whether that could occur is a rather theoretical

24 question. Could you please ask the witness for facts.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, directly.

Page 13930

1 Q. Do you know if when Muslim forces fired it occasionally happened

2 that there were firing errors? Yes or no.

3 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I understood your invitation to the

7 Defence in proposing this question is that it should include the concept

8 of specific knowledge, and this is an invitation for speculation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me do the following: I know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

10 what is the issue you would like to raise. Let me ask the witness because

11 there were some leading elements in it as well.

12 You have seen this picture, Mr. DP6, in front of you --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whether the shelling that caused

15 this damage to these buildings was targeted against these buildings or

16 that it was because of errors in firing that these buildings were damaged?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was shelled. This was burnt.

18 There were no -- these were no mistakes. These buildings were burnt, they

19 were shelled by the Muslim forces. That's that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask you in a more general --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These buildings were the ones that

22 burnt the most.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are just two or three buildings with a

24 civilian appearance on this picture. In more general terms, were houses

25 which you would consider to be civilian houses could be hit by shells, do

Page 13931

1 you know whether these civilian houses were targeted as such or that they

2 were hit by shells where other perhaps non-civilian buildings were the

3 targets and, therefore, these civilian buildings would have suffered from

4 firing errors?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know whether they

6 were targeted. I just know that they were hit and they were burnt.

7 Whether they were targeted deliberately to hit this building or house, I

8 really don't know. This is probably known by the person who target -- who

9 did this, who fired, who targeted.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 Q. Simply, Witness, with your knowledge of the weapons, could you

13 tell me if when a shell is launched there is practically a possibility of

14 error? Yes or no.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. The witness has said that

16 his area of expertise is anti-aircraft artillery. There has been no

17 suggestion so far that this witness has any expertise or experience in the

18 area of mortar fire.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, the question was in a very general

20 way. Is it in dispute that firing errors can occur?

21 MR. IERACE: It is not, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please move to your next subject,

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Since this is not

25 in dispute --

Page 13932

1 Q. Do you know that perhaps -- no. Since this is not disputed, thank

2 you. You said that these houses were set on fire, were burnt. Could you

3 tell us, how do you know that and how, with which technical means, were

4 these houses set on fire?

5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. For all of the questioning

6 on this topic for the last 15 minutes, my learned colleague has not yet

7 asked when this occurred, and that, of course, is fundamental to

8 relevance.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, looking at these photographs of these

10 buildings, did you witness when they were hit by shells? Have you seen

11 that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I don't know

13 exactly the moment when they were hit. But all of these buildings were

14 destroyed, burnt, and shelled in the first year of the war. The very

15 first year of the war.

16 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you were present when

17 specifically these buildings were hit by shells?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly if I was there

19 at the time, at that moment, but I know when houses, buildings were

20 burning in Nedzarici. Because when a shell lands on a house, after a few

21 minutes, the house starts burning, and it is burning.


23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they -- they launched some

24 cocktails, I don't know what they were called, when you throw this

25 cocktail. And then after the shell is launched, then this kind of

Page 13933

1 cocktail with fluid inside would go on the roof and seep down and it would

2 make it more flammable and would make it burn more quickly, the houses

3 burn more quickly then.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you explained to us that there are specific

5 shells that would make the buildings to be on fire easily, and at the

6 same -- and another thing, that is in general, but specifically on these

7 buildings you have no knowledge or?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean? I have no

9 knowledge.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge about these buildings being

11 hit by a shell, not being present when that happened.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably shells landed there,

13 since they burnt this way.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you recognise these

15 buildings as damaged in such a way that they would have been hit by

16 shells. But you were not present when these specific buildings were hit?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't right there at the time

18 when these first two buildings, these two there.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is a clear answer.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you indicated that you would need five minutes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, perhaps, I would like to

22 continue, Mr. President. When I say "five minutes" that is always without

23 the objections, but now I will double my estimate.

24 Q. Witness, just two more questions, you spoke about means,

25 incendiary means, that is what you said, and you spoke about the beginning

Page 13934

1 of the war. On the basis of what you said, do you know if this

2 destruction occurred in the first months of the combat or when?

3 MR. IERACE: I object.


5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We will rephrase.

6 Q. Could you tell me, please, when did this destruction take place?

7 A. This destruction --


9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is this an objection on the

10 answer? Then it is an objection on the answer.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you carefully --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please calm down a bit.

13 Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, I object to the question for this reason: That

15 the witness has already been closely questioned in appropriate terms to

16 establish his state of knowledge as to when these events occurred. And my

17 learned colleague now seeks to revisit that area, which is something he

18 cannot do in chief. The answer has been clearly given and that is the end

19 of the matter.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is, however, one problem, Mr. Ierace, the

21 witness was questioned about it not in chief, but by myself and I might

22 have different points of interest. So I reject the objection. Please

23 proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

25 Q. Witness, I am going to ask my question again: When precisely you

Page 13935

1 told us earlier that this was the first year of the war, I believe you

2 said but do you know exactly when most of these buildings, when were these

3 buildings destroyed, most of them?

4 A. Most damage and destruction was caused June, end of June, July,

5 August, and until the end of the year, approximately that. By the end of

6 1992.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 Witness, do you know -- and if you do know, please tell us how

9 much, how many -- how many people died in your neighbourhood, that is in

10 the locality of Nedzarici?

11 A. Do you mean military and civilians or --

12 Q. If you can make a distinction, yes, please do.

13 A. I know approximately that there were casualties in war, about 240

14 in the village of Nedzarici.

15 Q. But that --

16 A. I don't know the exact figure, but that is approximately.

17 Q. By that, do you mean 240 people out of the population that you

18 said to be approximately how much, how many, how many people -- when we

19 started your examination, how many people lived in Nedzarici?

20 A. No, no, no. I didn't say 24. I said 240.

21 Q. No, there is a problem with interpretation. At the very start of

22 your examination, you gave us the approximate total number of citizens

23 living in Nedzarici. Can you remind us of that number, please.

24 A. That was about 1.500 inhabitants.

25 Q. That's it. Very well. So these two hundred and forty people that

Page 13936

1 you talk about, is that civilian and military put together?

2 A. Both military and civilians about 240 approximately.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

4 Mr. President. No further questions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 1.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are there any more questions or --

11 because I didn't see the other photograph used or am I wrong?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President.

13 But merely -- and thank you for reminding me of that. We only wanted to

14 show it to the witness to see whether he recognises the area, but since we

15 covered all the issues with the first photograph I didn't want to waste

16 any more time. But if you want me to do that --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to be sure that I -- that you have put

18 all the questions to the witness you wanted.

19 Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Might the witness be shown Exhibit D1761,

23 perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO.


25 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

Page 13937

1 Q. DP6 --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. I

3 object. I am sorry, but I have just said that we have covered all the

4 issues with the first of these two photographs, which is, therefore, 62

5 rather than 61. Then we thought that this document was enough. And we

6 did not produce in evidence the document 1761 that we see on the screen

7 and we did not ask any questions about it. And, therefore, we do not

8 think that the Prosecution can refer to something that we -- to a piece of

9 evidence that we did not produce. This is the reason for my objection.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. Is my understanding correct that

11 you intend to tender this document in relation to this witness?

12 MR. IERACE: It depends on the answer to the next question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: As such, if the Defence does not put any questions in

14 relation to this picture, this should not prevent the Prosecution, to

15 which this picture has been disclosed, to use it, and if they want to, to

16 tender that.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --


19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One of the reasons why I did

20 not produce it was because Mr. Ierace himself said a few moments ago that

21 this photograph had been submitted in a regular manner. And considering

22 the difficulties -- no. I am just saying, it was said that it was not

23 communicated regularly, and then all of a sudden during the

24 cross-examination when it appears that it was, I think that we are --

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is totally independent from how it was, whether it

Page 13938

1 was communicated in time or not. That is not an issue that should bar the

2 Prosecution from using these photographs. Let's first listen what the

3 question would be.

4 Mr. Ierace, please proceed. The objection is denied.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. In any event, it was the

6 other photograph that had not been supplied.

7 Q. Sir, in that photograph can you see the Institute for the Blind

8 Children? Yes or no.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please take a blue marker and place a circle -- I withdraw that.

11 Can you please point to the Institute for the Blind Children.

12 A. This one here, I think.

13 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and place a circle around that

14 building.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Now, did I call it its correct title, that is, the Institute for

18 Blind Children?

19 A. This here too and that one. This is the first one -- the first

20 one right next to the Aleja Branka Bujica, this is the second one, and

21 this is the third one.

22 Q. You also referred to the Centre for the Blind and Disabled. Would

23 you please point to if it appears in the photographs the building or

24 buildings which were the Centre for the Blind and Disabled.

25 A. I think it is this one building over here, this small one, even

Page 13939

1 though there is an extension, but you can't see it here, but I think it's

2 this one. This is for the blind and disabled, and this is the Institute

3 for Blind Children. And this is the centre.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, for the sake of the record, indicate

5 where the witness pointed at when he said that other buildings were

6 also --

7 MR. IERACE: Yes. I can do it in a series of questions for

8 greater accuracy, Mr. President.



11 Q. You have placed a blue circle around a white building that appears

12 to be a ground floor, plus two levels on top of the ground floor. Is that

13 correct? And I think it is white. Is that correct?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. Now, immediately to the right of that building, do you see another

16 building of a --

17 A. Two more buildings, one in the middle and that one over there.

18 Q. -- on the building in the middle. Thank you. Please hold the

19 pointer on that building.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you. Was that building part of the Institute for Blind

22 Children?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: We believe the witness said it was because he is

25 not speak into the microphone.

Page 13940


2 Q. Could you please repeat your answer and move your mouth closer to

3 the microphone as you do so.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I am

5 sorry. This is not an objection. It is a precision that I request. I do

6 not think that we heard the witness's answer. We think he said it is or

7 something like that. But I would like it repeated aloud so as to avoid

8 any mistakes whatsoever. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it took you four lines when

10 Mr. Ierace last question was: "Could you please repeat your answer?"

11 That is really not very efficient. Could you please repeat that answer,

12 whether this building you just pointed at was also -- did also belong to

13 the Institute for the Blind Children. That is the building in the middle?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and this one here to.


16 Q. I will come to that in a minute. Now, would you please take a

17 blue marker and in the sky immediately above the blue circle that you have

18 already put on the photograph, please write the number

19 "1."

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you.

22 Would you now please place --

23 JUDGE ORIE: And is it -- is this blue? Oh, then the light is

24 different. I am sorry. Please proceed.

25 MR. IERACE: Maybe perhaps just clarify that. The pen seems to be

Page 13941












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13942

1 blue according to the stop. Yes, it is?

2 Q. Would you now please place a blue circle around the second

3 building, that is the one in middle that was part of the same complex.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Would you now --

7 JUDGE ORIE: May I see that pen, please. I think that the blue --

8 it is really different on my screen, but it really is blue.

9 MR. IERACE: For the record, the witness has placed a number "2"

10 above the circled middle building.

11 Q. Would you now please point to the building to the right with your

12 pointer and hold the pointer on the building. Thank you.

13 Was that building also part of the complex of buildings for the

14 Institute for Blind Children?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you please circle that building and place the number "3"

17 above it.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. All right. Now, please look again at the building in the circle

20 numbered "1." In front of that building, that is, between the camera and

21 the building, one can see a red building with a red roof. Would you

22 please point to it.

23 A. Red roof? You mean this one here?

24 Q. No. Please point to building number one.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 13943

1 Q. Thank you?

2 A. Number one, here it is.

3 Q. Do you see to the bottom right and just inside the circle is a red

4 roof?

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. Here.

8 Q. Yes. What was that building before the war?

9 A. This was a private house and it burnt down during the war. This

10 picture was taken later. It was roofless during the war.

11 Q. All right. Now --

12 A. But it was a privately owned house.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me Mr. President. Might the witness be

15 shown -- excuse me, Mr. President.

16 Q. Would you now point again to the buildings that you were -- that

17 you said may have been part of the complex for the Centre for the Blind

18 and Disabled, that is, where there were production plants. Actually, the

19 ELMO could be adjusted. Thank you.

20 A. [Indicates].

21 Q. Are you sure that those buildings were part of that centre, or do

22 you have some doubt?

23 A. I am sure.

24 Q. All right. Now, we can see what appears to be a building with a

25 brownish wall facing the camera and behind it some whiter walls. Do you

Page 13944

1 see that? No to the left where the Centre for the Blind and Disabled is

2 positioned.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you. Now just so we can better understand which buildings

5 were part of that centre. At the moment you have your pointer on the

6 building which appears to have --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have lost

9 the image. Could the witness please move the photograph, because a moment

10 ago we couldn't see it on our screens. It was outside the screen.



13 Q. Now, would you please place your pointer again on the building

14 which has a greyish flat roof.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Thank you. Was that building part of the centre?

17 A. It was.

18 Q. Would you now please place your pointer on the whitish buildings

19 behind it.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Were those buildings or was that building part of the centre?

22 A. This is the old people's home.

23 Q. Would you please take your blue pen and circle --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --


Page 13945

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry, but

2 the witness precisely indicated what type of building we were talking

3 about. It was good to have in the transcript the name that he has

4 attributed to it, because it does not appear in the transcript.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is: "This is the old people's home."

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but for the transcript,

7 it would be good to say what it is, because he pointed at it very

8 precisely. Ah, now it is clear.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace asked him to point to the white buildings

10 just behind the first building indicated with the grey flat roof.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We don't have better

12 lighting on our screen. Could we have the photograph back. If not, then,

13 well, never mind.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...used in evidence,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. May I urge you not to interrupt unless it really

16 serves a good purpose.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


19 Q. Please place a blue circle around the building that was the

20 production plant or Centre for the Blind and Disabled and place a number

21 "4" above it.

22 A. [Marks]

23 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the ELMO could be adjusted. All right.

24 Q. I think you have placed the number "4" on an area which appears to

25 be a tree. Is that correct?

Page 13946

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. All right. Can you do it again in the sky area above the circle,

3 place a "4."

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you. All right, you can put the pen down now and perhaps

6 the ELMO could pan back so that we could see all of the photograph.

7 Now, in the foreground of this photograph we see a large concrete

8 slab which appears to be the roof of a car park. Is that correct?

9 A. It is, yes, that's right.

10 Q. Was that there during the war, that concrete slab?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, the photograph seems to be taken from the balcony area of a

13 high-rise building, and immediately to the right we can see what appears

14 to be a similar high-rise building. Are you familiar with these two

15 buildings?

16 A. Yes. This is Vojnicko Polje.

17 Q. When you gave that answer, did you point to anything on the

18 photograph? Which is Vojnicko Polje --

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. All right. We withdraw that question. Go on, please.

21 A. Vojnicko Polje is right across the street from Nedzarici, on the

22 other side of Lukavicka Cesta. This is part of Vojnicko Polje. This

23 building next to these garages and this building here is in Vojnicko

24 Polje.

25 Q. When you say, "this building here," do you mean the building from

Page 13947

1 which the photograph is taken?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I think you now pointed to a building on the right. Thank you.

4 Were these two buildings on the ABiH side of the confrontation

5 lines at the end of 1992, in December 1992?

6 A. In December 1992, at that time this building was held by the army

7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Yes, thank you.

9 MR. IERACE: And for the benefit of the transcript, the witness

10 pointed to the building on the right, the high-rise building.

11 Q. Now, in what direction is the camera pointed in this photograph?

12 In other words, are we looking approximately north south, east, west or

13 what, from this high-rise building?

14 A. It faces Nedzarici. From the side controlled by the BH army. It

15 was -- the photograph was taken from the part that used to be under the BH

16 army's control. This is Nedzarici, this is the institute, and over there

17 is the centre.

18 Q. All right. Would you agree with me that we are looking

19 approximately due-west? If you disagree, please say so. Would it be more

20 north-west?

21 A. North-west rather.

22 Q. All right.

23 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the witness might now be shown Exhibit D1760,

24 which is the map. Could the map be placed a little further up the

25 screen -- I am sorry, the other way. Further down. Thank you. And could

Page 13948

1 it please zoom in a little. Thank you. Stop there.

2 Q. Now, please take the pointer and point to the position of the car

3 park which you just identified in the photograph.

4 A. On the photograph. Here, this is where this parking lot was.

5 Q. Are you sure about that?

6 A. I am.

7 Q. Would you please point to --

8 A. Because -- I am sorry. Because in front of the car park was the

9 shopping centre. And then you have the car park and then the buildings

10 behind it.

11 Q. Please point to the Institute for Blind Children.

12 A. The Institute for Blind Children is here.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Would you please point to --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry. We

18 have so many questions about the car park. I don't know how is it

19 relevant and why, as for the car park we never talked about it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fact the Defence asked a number of

22 questions in cross-examination of the witness in relation to scheduled

23 sniping incident number 25 as to the car park. So it has already been a

24 topic of some interest to the Defence. Secondly, it assists in our end,

25 the viewer, in photograph 1761, to understand where the car park and the

Page 13949

1 institute are on the map.

2 Q. Could you please point to --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before

4 Mr. Ierace continues, we would like to hear your decision. Because

5 Ms. Pilipovic did not mention the car park.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...give you a

7 decision when you interrupted me. The objection is denied, but could you

8 please, for our orientation, we do not need much assistance any more,

9 Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. And I apologise for going

11 straight into the next question. That was an oversight.

12 Q. All right. In view of that, would you please point to the

13 position, if it appears on this map, of the brigade headquarters, that is,

14 your brigade headquarters, as of December 1992? And I think you

15 identified it as the Ilidza Brigade.

16 A. That's right. Research Institute. Ilidza. Somewhere here.

17 Q. You point to an area which is --

18 A. Wait, wait, please. Just a moment. Where are the spas, the

19 watering places marked here. Energoinvest -- no, somewhere here. Yes,

20 the watering -- no, just a moment. I won't take long. No, this is Terma

21 Hotel. Somewhere here -- no, I am not quite sure. Somewhere here.

22 Somewhere here is where the Ilidza Brigade should be.

23 Q. All right. Perhaps you could now take again a blue pen.

24 MR. IERACE: Is there a thinner one available?

25 Q. To the best of your recollection, please place a blue cross to

Page 13950

1 indicate the position of the brigade headquarters, and alongside --

2 A. Like this, more or less?

3 Q. Yes. A bigger cross perhaps.

4 A. Somewhere here.

5 Q. All right. Alongside the cross, please put the initials "BRHQ."

6 A. BR --

7 Q. HQ.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you for that. Incidently, you told us that you returned to

10 your battalion in October 1993. Did you stay there for the duration of

11 the armed conflict in Sarajevo, in other words, up until the end of 1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I think you told us that you would -- I withdraw that.

14 Did the brigade headquarters change its position at any stage from

15 September 1992 until August of 1994?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who was the first brigade commander?

18 A. The first commander was Zoran Borovina and he was killed. And

19 before that was a man whose name I had forgotten. And then Vladimir --

20 after Zoran, Vladimir --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name of

22 the last commander.


24 Q. Would you please repeat the family name of Vladimir.

25 A. Radojcic.

Page 13951

1 Q. When was the first commander killed? Was that in May of 1992?

2 A. It was in May. No, no. Later, later. Or perhaps in May,

3 mid-May. I am not sure about the date. I think when -- there were

4 clashes in Otes and then he was killed.

5 Q. The name of the brigade commander who replaced him who you have --

6 which you have forgotten, does this job jog your memory? Was it Pero

7 Despotovic?

8 A. The first one was Pero Despotovic, and then it was Zoran, and then

9 it was Vladimir Radojcic.

10 Q. Thank you for that. Would you please place on the map now the

11 location of your battalion headquarters.

12 A. The battalion headquarters was located -- battalion headquarters

13 was located in the barracks which is -- which was here. This is where it

14 was from 1992, and when I returned -- from 1992 until I was wounded. And

15 then when I returned in 1993, the headquarters was moved to the

16 Kasindolska Street. While the barracks is located here, so the

17 headquarters of my battalion was here first.

18 Q. Would you please take the blue pen and outline the barracks where

19 the battalion headquarters were first located. In other words, draw a

20 line around the building, if it appears there, or the complex, the

21 barracks complex.

22 A. This is -- here is barracks. And this headquarters of ours was

23 located here, here in this part.

24 Q. Please turn the dot into a cross, if you can.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 13952

1 Q. And alongside write "BAHQ."

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. I think you have written "BAHY." I think that will do. On the

4 other side of the cross, please write the number "1."

5 A. That here?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. All right. Now, please place a cross where the battalion

9 headquarters were from when you returned in October 1993.

10 A. Kasindolska Street. Approximately here. So I should put a cross,

11 should I?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. [Marks]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am just going

16 to just use this opportunity while the witness is put the cross on just to

17 remind you that we must discuss other witnesses in closed session. And

18 there are certain little things to do with interpretation, so I am going

19 to need a few minutes. I am just reminding you now so that tomorrow we

20 don't find ourselves in a similar situation. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, how much time would you still need

22 to cross-examine the witness?

23 MR. IERACE: I should think some hours, Mr. President, with this

24 witness. Perhaps we could just finish off the letters alongside the cross

25 and then --

Page 13953

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


3 Q. To the left of the cross please place the number "2."

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. To the right of the cross please write "BAHQ."

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you for that.

8 MR. IERACE: I think for the transcript it is "BAHY."

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP6 --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We have to deal with procedural issues in closed

12 session. So we will do that now. We still need you tomorrow morning, so

13 will you please come back to this courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00 and

14 do not speak to anyone about the testimony you have given in this court up

15 until now.

16 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. DP6 out of the courtroom.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good-bye, Your Honours, and thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: See you tomorrow again.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn into closed session.

22 [Closed session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 the 17th day of October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.